Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 474

1 Monday, 23 July 2001

2 [Depositions Hearing]

3 [Open session]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.35 a.m.

5 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Good morning; Good morning,

6 everybody. Ms. Registrar, could you please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning. This is case number IT-98-34-PT,

8 the Prosecutor versus Martinovic and Naletilic.

9 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you. I should like to say good

10 morning to everybody present here and all those who will help us to

11 conduct this hearing. During this hearing, we shall hear the testimonies

12 under Rule 71 of the Rules of Procedure and Evidence, that is, the

13 depositions. I shall be the Presiding Officer.

14 Can we have the appearances, please. Prosecutor.

15 MR. SCOTT: Good morning, Your Honour -- Mr. Hearing Officer. We

16 are here today to present our case in these proceedings. My name is Ken

17 Scott. I am the lead Prosecutor on the case. With me is Douglas

18 Stringer, Vassily Poriouvaev, and Kimberly Fleming, our case manager.

19 Thank you.

20 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you. And for the Defence.

21 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour, or,

22 rather, Mr. President. I am Kresimir Krsnik, lawyer, and I have, for the

23 time being, the lawyer Visnja Lasan.

24 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, good morning --

25 Mr. Presiding Officer. I'm Branko Seric, lawyer from Zagreb, and my

Page 475

1 co-lawyer is Zelimir Par.

2 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you. We shall, therefore,

3 proceed to hearing a certain number of witnesses. I should -- I must

4 apologise that I shall not be able to be here on Friday for personal

5 reasons. I have to leave The Hague. But I believe I have understood,

6 Prosecutor, there is a minor organising problem concerning the schedule

7 which will necessitate some modifications.

8 Before I give you the floor on this point, I wish to remind you of

9 the schedule, of the timetable which was adopted and which we should, in

10 principle, observe for the depositions. We shall be beginning at 9.15 in

11 the morning and we'll be stopping at quarter to eleven for a 20-minute

12 break. We shall be resuming at 11.05, making a break at 12.30 for an hour

13 and a half break. Then we shall be resuming at 14.00, with a break at

14 15.20, a 20-minute break; then we shall be resuming at 15.40 and

15 adjourning at 5.00.

16 Now, the Scheduling Order also says that the hearings should last

17 until 5.30. The reason for it is that in case we need a few minutes more

18 so as to finish the testimony of a particular witness, then it is

19 suggested that we should use a few minutes over so as to allow the witness

20 to leave the courtroom as quickly as possible. I say "a few minutes." I

21 do not wish, however -- but please state it is my intensive wish not to

22 have ever to have to make recourse to these 30 minutes, because this will

23 be a considerable burden on everybody, and that includes the

24 interpreters.

25 I hope that this timetable will be convenient to you, that

Page 476

1 everybody will observe it, and I hope the accused will be able to follow

2 the proceedings in a way which will allow them to participate as

3 efficiently as possible in their own Defence, and I believe this is also a

4 timetable which fully respects the witnesses.

5 Now, Mr. Prosecutor, could I now hear what organisation -- what do

6 we have scheduled for the next two or three days, please.

7 MR. SCOTT: May it please the Court, as I indicated earlier, and

8 was indicated to Judge Wald on Friday, unfortunately, there was some -- a

9 bit of confusion about scheduling. We had been told some time ago that

10 the schedule this week would involve only Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday

11 afternoon, commencing full days on Thursday. In talking with my learned

12 friends on the other side, I think they have had the same understanding

13 that we did, and apparently it was not until Friday that it became

14 apparent that there was some possibility that we would switch Monday,

15 Tuesday, and Wednesday to full days.

16 So unfortunately, Mr. Fourmy -- and I might ask, by the way, I

17 don't know how you prefer to be addressed during these proceedings.

18 Obviously, we'll be guided by whatever your preference is, Mr. Fourmy or

19 Mr. President, or how would you -- how do you prefer?

20 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. I am not, I am

21 not a president yet, so my name, I think, will suffice, thank you.

22 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. Fourmy. We'll hope for the future.

23 Mr. Fourmy, so that's the background of where we are in terms of

24 scheduling. Because of that understanding, we made arrangements to bring

25 witnesses from Bosnia on that schedule and only brought a number in for

Page 477

1 the first part of the week that would get us through approximately three

2 half days.

3 So I can tell, as we indicated to Judge Wald and as I can confirm

4 to you this morning, if we were to proceed on a full-day calendar starting

5 today, quite honestly, we would run out of witnesses probably by the end

6 of the day tomorrow because we won't have other witnesses coming to The

7 Hague until late Tuesday evening.

8 So that's where we are. We're in the Court's hands, obviously.

9 We can either start with our first witness this morning and go until a

10 half day today, only in the morning instead of the afternoon. We could go

11 to 12.30. We could go through part or all of the afternoon. So it's

12 really, to some extent, obviously, what you want to do, Mr. Fourmy. I

13 would suggest that I think it would be most helpful to the Prosecution,

14 frankly, if we could have a half-day calendar, at least for today and

15 Tuesday, and it doesn't really matter for us whether the half day is in

16 the morning or the afternoon, and then we would be in a position to begin

17 a full-day schedule on Wednesday.

18 That's where we are, and if for some reason there was -- the

19 Prosecution team has contributed to this confusion in any way, it's our

20 apology, but that's where we are at the moment. But we do have witnesses

21 here in The Hague. We have a witness who's prepared to start this

22 morning, and that's where we, that's where we are.

23 Mr. Fourmy, at some point I would appreciate addressing you on

24 just a couple of procedural matters. I can either do that now or you may

25 want -- you may wish to hear from counsel in terms of the schedule

Page 478

1 overall.

2 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Could we perhaps hear from the

3 Defence with regard to the timetable, and then we shall respond.

4 Mr. Krsnik.

5 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] May I also address you as Mr. Fourmy

6 or Mr. Presiding Officer? What shall I do?

7 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] No, no, no. There's absolutely no

8 discrimination between the Prosecution and Defence.

9 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Very well, then. Mr. Fourmy, all

10 that the Prosecutor has so said is fully agreeable to us because we were

11 getting ready for the earlier schedule. And this timetable, not to

12 repeat, not to waste time, we absolutely shall agree with your decision.

13 We go along with the Prosecution, whether we shall be applying the former

14 Scheduling Order, that is, prior to Friday, or shall we proceed according

15 to the new one. It is -- both decisions fully agreeable to us.

16 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Seric.

17 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Mr. Fourmy, we're quite ready to hear

18 the depositions regardless of the pace and the rhythm of it. We shall

19 absolutely adjust ourselves to the decisions of the Tribunal. Thank you.

20 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. Under the -- in

21 view of this, since everybody is here this morning, perhaps I could

22 suggest that we begin to hear a witness. We could call a witness, and the

23 Prosecutor, of course, will tell us whether there are any matters of

24 procedure that would need to be raised, and then perhaps we shall see as

25 the morning moves on whether we shall work this afternoon. Tomorrow

Page 479

1 perhaps we could work half a day, which could be only before noon, that

2 is, the morning, and then Wednesday we could work the whole day.

3 It has already been said that the less we are late -- less delays

4 this week, the more chances there are that we shall not run into more

5 delays next week. At least, that is what I hope.

6 So can we then decide to work this morning and perhaps some this

7 afternoon, then tomorrow morning, and Wednesday the whole day. Will that

8 be agreeable to you? Mr. Prosecutor?

9 MR. SCOTT: Mr. Fourmy, we will do --

10 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Mr. Scott.

11 MR. SCOTT: My apology. We'll make every effort to accommodate

12 that schedule. Depending on how fast the witnesses go, and to some extent

13 we'll be in the Defence hands in terms of cross-examination as well, but

14 depending upon the pace, we then on that schedule, modified schedule, we

15 may or may not have witnesses to take us through the day on Wednesday.

16 But with that understanding, Mr. Fourmy, if we could all agree to some

17 flexibility on that point, we can proceed as you outline over the next

18 couple of days, several days, and if we do run out of witnesses at some

19 point, then we can make some adjustments, presumably. Thank you.

20 In terms, Mr. Fourmy of some procedural matters, I think we all

21 know that this is somewhat of a first time that this practice, at least in

22 this particular way, has been used at the ICTY. There's certainly been

23 depositions before, we know that, but perhaps not exactly in this way.

24 A couple of procedural matters that would assist us, if you can

25 give us some guidance. What we would propose to do, Mr. Fourmy, is that

Page 480

1 each witness be given a separate transcript, each one starting with a

2 page 1 rather than a continuing trial-type transcript, and I say this for

3 this reason: Obviously, ultimately these transcripts will be tendered to

4 the Chamber for inclusion in the Trial Record. It seems to us that it

5 would be easier for future purposes if each transcript essentially stood

6 on its own and then a transcript of a witness could then be tendered to

7 the Chamber and to the Registry as part of the record rather than starting

8 a continuous single transcript at this point. That's what we think would

9 make sense with the Trial Record, the formal trial transcript beginning,

10 of course, after the opening statement and the trial. That would be point

11 number one for your consideration.

12 Secondly, the other question that comes up, of course, is the

13 marking of exhibits, and I don't know what you have thought about that. I

14 can only draw on my experience in the Kordic case. I assume the

15 Prosecution exhibits would be Z. I don't know. In that case we used a Z

16 prefix. I'm not sure why, but a Z and number, if that's agreeable to you

17 and to the registrar.

18 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Do you have any other procedural

19 matters which you wish to raise?

20 MR. SCOTT: Other than the protective measures for the first

21 witness, Your Honour, I think that's all.

22 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Perhaps I shall respond to this in

23 the reverse order. As for the protection measures, do I have the

24 confirmation of the parties that this matter was discussed with Judge Wald

25 and that there are no objections on the part of the Defence with regard to

Page 481

1 the protective measures sought by the Prosecution?

2 Yes.

3 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Yes. It was discussed. We have

4 agreed on everybody. We discussed with the Prosecution, and we have no

5 objections insofar as protective measures are concerned.

6 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Likewise, Mr. Fourmy, we have agreed

7 with this. We raise no objections. But I should like to say that insofar

8 as these procedural matters are concerned which the Prosecution raises, I

9 believe that these proceedings are not pre-trial proceedings and this is

10 not being done by a court official responsible for the pre-trial

11 investigation. This is a part of the main hearing, and I can guess what

12 my learned friends wish to say for practical reasons and for its

13 integration into the trial, but we already have the depositions of these

14 witnesses. They are also separated from the case. That is, that is how

15 we received them and that is how we filed them. And I wish to say that

16 precisely because of the importance, because of the change of Rules

17 relative to this procedure, whether it will be difficult for the Chamber

18 to read the transcript. No, I do not think so. So I object to my learned

19 friend's proposal to make a separate transcript for each of the

20 witnesses.

21 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please slow down.

22 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] I think that we should proceed here in

23 the same way as is done with all the other witnesses in all the other

24 cases. Thank you very much.

25 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Seric. I wish to say

Page 482

1 that my spontaneous reaction would be relatively close to yours. However,

2 I might make two observations. First, that indeed this is the first time

3 that deposition -- that the taking of depositions is organised in this

4 particular way, and therefore, we have to give proof of flexibility in our

5 ability to adapt. However, at the same time, I would like to say that

6 depositions were conceived in this case as a logical sequence to certain

7 things which were done during the Status Conference, and therefore, I

8 should like to observe that we shall have to have just page 1 of the

9 transcript. I do not believe we can have it, because we have already

10 passed page 1. I believe we should proceed normally. Evidently, I shall

11 ask the Trial Judge and I will ask the Judge whether we should do

12 something about it, but I think that perhaps the Prosecutor, with the help

13 of case manager - I do not know what the term for the case manager is in

14 French - but I believe that with the help of the case manger, the

15 Prosecutor will be able to quickly refer to the page and go back to the

16 page he needs.

17 Now, as for the exhibits, there are perhaps two matters, but I

18 will have to ask you and you will tell me whether we agreed and that is --

19 one thing is whether you envisage a different -- different numbering of

20 exhibits, that is, different numbering for those which are tendered before

21 the Presiding Officer and those tendered for the Trial Chamber, or is

22 it -- or do you want different numbering with regard to the accused or

23 whatever?

24 If I understood you well, the Prosecutor -- Madam Registrar is,

25 perhaps, in the best position to give us a proper answer.

Page 483

1 THE INTERPRETER: Could Mr. Fourmy please slow down.

2 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning. I think it would be best if we used

3 a Z before the exhibit numbers, and perhaps because there's two accused,

4 we can do separate numbering for the accused. So we would start with Z1,

5 right, exactly, and proceed like that.

6 MR. SCOTT: Mr. Fourmy, if I might respond then, briefly. We

7 didn't feel strongly, frankly, about the numbering of the transcript

8 pages. There was some discussion that came up with the court reporters--

9 THE INTERPRETER: Mr. Scott, will you slow down, please.

10 MR. SCOTT: Yes. My apologies. We certainly will abide by

11 starting a continuous transcript if that's your preference and the

12 Registry's preference. We didn't feel strongly about it. There had been

13 some discussion with the court reporters beforehand in terms of what might

14 make the most sense, but it's certainly not, in our view, a major matter.

15 In terms of the exhibit numbering, Mr. Fourmy, we have worked to

16 prepare and number these exhibits so that the same numbers would be used

17 for trial to avoid confusion in the future. So if something is used in

18 these proceedings as Exhibit Z1 or Z2, that will be the same designation

19 used for that same exhibit during trial. So essentially, the numbering

20 starts today. That's what we are prepared to do, rather than have

21 Deposition Exhibit 4 which then becomes Trial Exhibit 27. It could be

22 confusing. So we will use the same numbers for the deposition exhibits as

23 the number will be used for trial. That's how we've prepared.

24 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Yes. I tend to agree with this

25 system, but the question which I wish to ask you is whether you are

Page 484

1 envisaging to attach different numbering for the two accused, that is,

2 distinguish between two accused. For instance, we had five accused in

3 another case and we had five different numberings. Now, what do you

4 envisage to do here?

5 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Mr. Scott.

6 MR. SCOTT: Sorry. I have to get used to all these procedures all

7 over again, Mr. Fourmy. My apologies to the interpreters.

8 It seems to me that it will be easier of administration if the two

9 defendants each had different numbering, and then everyone in the

10 proceedings on all sides can tell immediately whether -- which Defence the

11 exhibit relates to. So I see no reason not to do that.

12 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Madam Registrar, can I then make

13 you -- place you in charge of the numbering? And will you also please

14 immediately inform the Trial Chamber regarding the marking of the

15 exhibits. I also believe, that is, it is indispensable, and I believe I

16 am well placed to insist with both sides that both the Prosecutor and the

17 Defence try to submit the exhibits which they intend to use so that the

18 least possible time is wasted for the presentation of these exhibits

19 during the hearings and also in terms of their numbering. It will

20 facilitate the matters. I believe that everybody will agree, and

21 everybody will help out the registrar to work as efficiently as possible.

22 Thank you.

23 MR. SCOTT: In that regard, Mr. Fourmy, I should have also told

24 you that in our preparation - and I hope this will be acceptable because

25 this is the way, again, based on my experience in the Kordic case - we

Page 485

1 have or are in the process and have pre-numbered our exhibits. So we

2 already have documents marked as exhibits, or Z1 at least, continuing

3 through what our future markings will be.

4 And it may be, as you can understand, and I hope, there's been

5 some organisational method in terms of how we've organised the exhibits.

6 It could be with this particular -- the first witness, for instance, the

7 first exhibit -- my apology. The first exhibit could be exhibit --

8 already pre-marked as Exhibit 17, even though it would be the first

9 exhibit tendered, but it wouldn't be 1, but in fact the exhibits have been

10 pre-numbered. And we'll provide -- at some point, we'll be providing, of

11 course, a list, at least as far as we've gotten, so that everyone in the

12 courtroom can see that Exhibit 1 is this exhibit, Exhibit 10 is this

13 exhibit, et cetera.

14 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you. I think it will be quite

15 useful.

16 Madam Registrar.

17 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, I would suggest that maybe during the break,

18 the first break, we just briefly get together and make sure we're all on

19 the same page because I think it would be important to start off with the

20 correct numbering, with the proper procedure, and that way we will not

21 have any problems. So that's good.

22 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Yes. I think this is something that

23 can be done. Mr. Krsnik, Mr. Seric, do you have anything to say with this

24 regard?

25 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Mr. Fourmy, no, I don't think so.

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Page 487

1 This is all a matter of organisation, and it's a technical matter. I will

2 turn things over to the capable hands of the Registry, and I really would

3 like to emphasise that I fully trust your procedures.

4 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] The registrar's suggestion is also

5 acceptable to us.

6 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. If there are no

7 other matters which we need to address before the proceeding, I'm turning

8 to the Prosecution and Defence, Mr. Prosecutor, I believe you asked --

9 you've asked for protection measures for your first witness. Will you

10 please tell what it is.

11 MR. SCOTT: Yes, Your Honour. The first witness has requested,

12 and it has been agreed with Defence counsel and ordered, or at least,

13 allowed by Judge Wald during the proceedings on Friday, that the first

14 witness has requested to use a pseudonym and have facial image

15 distortion. As the first witness, I would assume the pseudonym would be

16 Witness A.

17 And in that regard, of course, when the witness is brought into

18 the courtroom, the gallery will have -- the view of the gallery will have

19 to, of course, be blocked until steps can be taken. In fact, in this

20 Chamber, in this particular courtroom, I think we perhaps we can't use the

21 gallery with the witness. I'm not sure what the practice is. Thank you.

22 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Madam Registrar, please, as for the

23 public gallery, I believe there is nobody there, but nevertheless, we have

24 to see that nobody enters during the deposition of the witness, so we

25 shall need to put some screens. I know this will inconvenience the

Page 488

1 interpreters, but at least the witness should not be seen outside. So

2 will you please take whatever is the simplest way to resolve this matter.

3 THE REGISTRAR: Yes. Normally what we do, we don't put screens up

4 in this room. We just make sure that no one is in the public gallery,

5 which I will do.

6 Also, I spoke with the Prosecutor before the commencement of these

7 hearings, and we will begin with A for the witness pseudonyms and continue

8 on like that. So the first witness that we call today will be Witness A.

9 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you. Will you call the first

10 witness, please.

11 Mr. Prosecutor, I should like to hear what you think, but I should

12 like to propose that we adhere to the timetable that was proposed, to make

13 a break at quarter to 11 so as to establish a certain rhythm. Will that

14 be convenient?

15 MR. SCOTT: That's fine.

16 [The witness entered court]

17 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Good morning.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

19 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Can you hear me?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.

21 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you very much for coming here.

22 We shall now hear your testimony; that is, you'll first answer the

23 questions which the Prosecutor will ask you, then the questions that the

24 Defence, that is, one or two counsel of the Defence will ask you.

25 You were also granted certain measures of protection, and

Page 489

1 especially you will have to begin with -- you will have a pseudonym, so do

2 not worry if we address you as Witness A. This should not embarrass you.

3 You will now be asked to make the solemn declaration, then you

4 will be shown a piece of paper with your name on it. You will tell us if

5 that is indeed your name, but you will not say it aloud, please. Do not

6 utter it, just indicate yes or no, that is, whether this is indeed your

7 name.

8 So will you please, Witness A, will you please now make the solemn

9 declaration. The usher will show you the document now.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

11 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Yes, please, go on.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

13 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

14 WITNESS: WITNESS A

15 [Witness answered through interpreter]

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. You may be seated.

17 Madam Registrar, do we have a document with the witness's name,

18 please, to show him and check if that is indeed his name.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it is.

20 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] It is your name, is it?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is.

22 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you. Mr. Usher, will you

23 please show it to the Defence and the Prosecution.

24 Thank you, Madam Registrar. I believe this document should get a

25 number. No?

Page 490

1 Do you wish to have this document marked, please, Mr. Scott?

2 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, I can understand the instinct -- I'll

3 probably say "Your Honour," and it will probably be just the natural, it's

4 going to come out that way, so I hope you will forgive me if I do say so.

5 I can understand your instinct to have the document marked as part

6 of the record. As we said earlier, we have pre-numbered exhibits, so

7 obviously if we were to mark this Exhibit 1, then all the numbering will

8 be off. However, perhaps there could be a separate marking system, and

9 I'm in the Court's hands on preference, but it could be identification

10 Exhibit 1 or some other way to distinguish it from the other exhibits.

11 You know, Witness identification 1, or something that marks it as

12 different than the rest of the numbers.

13 As I say, I understand your desire to have some marking in the

14 record, but we would not be able to use the same numbers for the reasons

15 indicated.

16 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Yes. Thank you very much. At any

17 rate, it's always flattering to hear you address me as Your Honour.

18 Yes, Madam Registrar.

19 THE REGISTRAR: I was going to suggest that also we would take

20 care of this matter during the break. That way we don't lose time in the

21 proceedings.

22 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] I have an indication from the

23 Defence. Mr. Seric, do you wish to say something?

24 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Fourmy. This is a

25 significant issue. The Prosecution now is, is suggesting they have their

Page 491

1 own, their own list of exhibits with their own numbering, and they seem

2 pretty assured that all of them will be actually accepted. On the other

3 hand, we are indifferent as to what numbering system applies for the

4 identification of witnesses.

5 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Mr. Seric, there is, perhaps, a

6 question of a more general nature. I think we are dealing with a matter

7 in principle. All the documents tendered by a side have numbers. That

8 applies to everybody, so that one can refer to a document, to a video, or

9 to whatever. It also -- every document has a number, but whether such a

10 document, such a video, such a recording will be admitted, that is another

11 matter. And it is not up to me to decide whether an exhibit will be

12 admitted or not. It is, of course, up to the Trial Chamber. I am here

13 only a very humble servant here who is helping you that things proceed

14 well, and I cannot take any decision with regard to admission of any

15 exhibits.

16 But I believe that we can decide on this numbering, would you

17 agree with that, Mr. Seric? Mr. Krsnik, I'm sorry, yes.

18 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I absolutely agree. And let me

19 reiterate, this is a technical and organisational issue, and I think that

20 it is something that can be agreed on during the recess, during the break,

21 and let's move on.

22 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] And also I would like the Defence to

23 be involved in that process of decision-making on that.

24 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Yes, I like this idea, that everybody

25 agrees on this matter. Yes, Mr. Seric.

Page 492

1 If there are no other matters? Witness A, we apologise to you,

2 there are sometimes some procedural matters which arise in your presence.

3 You really shouldn't be the victim of these, but now I believe we can

4 proceed to your examination first by Mr. Scott, is it --

5 MR. SCOTT: Yes.

6 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] -- on behalf of the Prosecution?

7 THE INTERPRETER: And Mr. Scott, your microphone, please.

8 Examined by Mr. Scott:

9 Q. Good morning, Witness A.

10 A. Good morning.

11 Q. Witness A, by way of background and with, I hope, counsel's

12 agreement, we can move rather quickly by some leading questions on some

13 background matters before we get more to the central part of your

14 testimony.

15 Sir, is it correct that you are a person of Muslim ethnicity, that

16 you were born in the village of Sovici in the country of

17 Bosnia-Herzegovina? In fact, you were born there -- I'm not going to give

18 your exact birth date because you are a protected witness, but you were

19 born in Sovici in 1956. Is that correct?

20 A. Correct.

21 Q. And is it fair to say, sir, that you have lived essentially all

22 your life then in the village of Sovici?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Now, I'm going to direct you to the 17th of April, 1993, and

25 around that time, can you just confirm to the Chamber, to the Presiding

Page 493

1 Officer, that about that time the population of Sovici was somewhere

2 approximately 12.000 persons? Is that about right?

3 A. No.

4 Q. What would you put the number -- where would you put the number of

5 people, approximate number of the people, number of people, living in

6 Sovici in April of 1993?

7 A. Twelve hundred.

8 Q. You're absolutely right. My mistake. Twelve hundred, not

9 12.000. And out of that 1.200 people, can you tell this proceeding

10 approximately how many of that number were Muslim?

11 A. Approximately 70 per cent were of ethnic Muslim background.

12 Q. Now, is it also correct, sir, that on the 17th of April, you were

13 a member of what maybe was referred to at that time either as the TO or

14 Territorial Defence, or what might be called the ABiH or armija? Were you

15 a member of one of those groups on the 17th of April, 1993?

16 A. Yes. I was a member of TO.

17 Q. Now, can you tell us, sir, what was the nature of any military

18 fortifications, if there were any, and what they were in the village of

19 Sovici on the 17th of April, 1993.

20 A. It's not entirely clear to me what the question is.

21 Q. All right. Were there -- there were soldiers in the village.

22 There were Territorial Defence, TO, soldiers in the village, you've said;

23 is that correct?

24 A. Yes, that is correct.

25 Q. And apart from the presence of these soldiers, were there

Page 494

1 fortifications? Were there trenches? Were there any other facilities

2 constructed or present there for military purposes other than the presence

3 of the soldiers themselves?

4 A. Well, yes, but in fact, while we were together, that is, with

5 Croats, the TO it was called at the time, not army, we were fighting the

6 same aggressor, and of course these trenches were being dug and they were

7 used to fight them.

8 Q. And let me -- let the record be clear on this. When you said up

9 until the 17th of April, are you indicating that the Muslims and Croats

10 were fighting together against the Serbs at that time?

11 A. Well, yes.

12 Q. And so what you're indicating, if I understand you well, is that

13 to the extent that there were trenches, for instance, in the village of

14 Sovici at that time, they were constructed for the purposes of defence

15 against the Serbs; is that correct?

16 A. Correct.

17 Q. And in fact, sir, on the point that you raise, can you tell -- can

18 you tell this proceeding were you personally surprised at the outbreak of

19 fighting between the Muslims and the Croats in Sovici on the 17th of

20 April, 1993?

21 A. Yes, I was, because indeed I could not imagine that something like

22 this would happen.

23 Q. Can you just spend a moment, please, and say in your own words

24 then what happened on the morning of the 17th of April? How did the

25 attack begin, to the best of your memory, and how was it carried out?

Page 495

1 A. Well, this is what happened: On 17th of April sometime,

2 approximately 8.00 a.m., the village of Sovici started being shelled by

3 tanks, mortars, howitzers. Also, sniper fire was opened and so on.

4 Q. And what did you do at that time?

5 A. At that time, I had just come back from the position in the area

6 of Mackovica and I was at home with my wife. We were drinking coffee.

7 And when the shelling started, I tried to get the children inside the

8 house. The new house was about 20 metres from the old house and there was

9 a basement there. So I wanted to safely put the family down there.

10 Q. All right. Now, Witness A, can you remember approximately the

11 direction from which the main part of the attack on Sovici came? From

12 what direction?

13 A. Yes, I can. From Risovac.

14 Q. To move us ahead, Witness A, would it be fair to say that you and

15 some of the other Muslim men resisted the attack for some approximately

16 eight hours that day, and at the end of that time, the command or order

17 was essentially given by your side that, given the nature of the fighting

18 and your being outnumbered, et cetera, that you should surrender?

19 A. Yes, correct. I did not try to resist, because I was not in such

20 a situation, because the village was in a valley of sorts, surrounded by

21 hills, and along with Senver Rado, I tried to pull out so that we could

22 observe and see what was going on.

23 Q. But later, in fact, that day, on the 17th of April, you and

24 perhaps others with you surrendered your weapons, I think, at a small part

25 of this area called Majici; is that correct?

Page 496

1 A. Not Majici. It is Mijici.

2 Q. My mistake. Thank you. What happened after that, after you

3 surrendered?

4 A. What happened was that Petar Mijic and another person told us that

5 we should proceed towards the school in a column, and we were escorted by

6 a police vehicle, an HVO police vehicle, all the way to the school. And

7 about 50 metres before the school, there was the house of Stipe Polje, and

8 we were searched and mistreated there.

9 Q. All right. When you say "mistreated," can you tell the Hearing

10 Officer how you were mistreated, you and the others with you, briefly.

11 A. Well, as we were coming in one by one, we had to raise our hands

12 and spread our legs. Then they would search us and beat us, hit us,

13 things like that.

14 Q. All right. And then approximately how long were you at this house

15 where you were searched and beaten before you went on to the school?

16 A. Individually, it took five to ten minutes per person.

17 Q. All right. Now, so the record is clear, when you say "to the

18 school," this is the Sovici school that you're referring to now?

19 A. Yes, in Sovici, in the upper part of the village.

20 Q. All right. And will you tell us then what happened once you got

21 to the Sovici school?

22 A. The same thing happened. Again searched; again facing the wall

23 with hands up, legs spread; again searched; again interrogation; and again

24 mistreatment.

25 Q. All right. Now, Witness A, we're going to talk more about the

Page 497

1 detention at the school in a few minutes, but before we do that, let me go

2 back to the attack itself. Did you, in the course of the day, identify or

3 were you able to identify any of the HVO units involved in this attack?

4 A. Well, as far as the units are concerned, I just call them HVO.

5 Q. And did you learn around that time that any particular commanders

6 or HVO leaders were associated with the units involved in this attack?

7 A. Yes. They were associated.

8 Q. Can you tell us what names you heard associated with these HVO

9 units?

10 A. We had heard, even a month before, that -- that those who were

11 deployed there at Risovac were Tuta's and that they were taking part in

12 it.

13 Q. Can you explain to the Hearing Officer the basis of that

14 information? How did the fact or the information that this was Tuta's

15 unit or Tuta's men, how did that come to your attention? What did you

16 base that on?

17 A. The neighbours told someone that that's what it was.

18 Q. Did you, in fact, have a neighbour whose -- a member of their

19 family or some of their family was in the HVO?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And can you just say to the Chamber whether that was -- was that,

22 in fact, one of the ways that you were told that the HVO unit that had

23 taken up position around Sovici was Tuta's unit?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Did you have any understanding at that time of the type of unit

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Page 499

1 that Tuta's unit was or what type of activity this unit was engaged in?

2 A. We only heard what I just said, that they were Tuta's men.

3 Q. All right. Now, is it correct, sir, that during the attack on

4 Sovici on the 17th of April, approximately four TO soldiers, Muslim TO

5 soldiers, were killed during the attack?

6 A. Not during the attack. This was done afterwards.

7 Q. Well, all right, let me ask it this way: To your knowledge, were

8 any ABiH -- or, excuse me, TO soldiers at that time, were any TO soldiers

9 killed during the attack itself, as far as you know?

10 A. As I said, at Mackovica where men were in their positions, there

11 were some casualties.

12 Q. And to your knowledge, if you can help us in this way, were any

13 civilian, Muslim civilians, killed in Sovici during the attack itself?

14 And that is now I'm talking about the attack on the 17th of April. Were

15 civilians killed during the attack, to your knowledge?

16 A. Yes. I heard about that, but I didn't see it, in the upper part

17 of the village.

18 Q. All right. Now, well, I think we have to clarify this. Are these

19 persons -- strike that. Let me come at it this way: Was your brother

20 later killed, either on that day or some days later?

21 A. Several days later. I think he was executed in front of school in

22 Sovici, I don't know, on the 21st or the 22nd.

23 Q. All right. Now, I want to use that event as a benchmark if we

24 can. When you say that there were soldiers or civilians killed during the

25 attack, I just want to be clear, are you referring to persons who were

Page 500

1 killed at the same time that your brother was killed, or are you referring

2 to other casualties that happened during the attack itself on the 17th of

3 April?

4 A. No. I said that at Mackovica four were -- four soldiers, I guess

5 is what I would call them, were killed at the Mackovica line on that day.

6 And on the 21st to 22nd, four were -- four additional ones were executed

7 in front of the school in Sovici.

8 Q. Can you inform, can you inform the proceedings whether, to your

9 knowledge, when you were still in Sovici on the 17th of April, 1993, and

10 you were still able to move about the village, were Muslim houses in the

11 village destroyed, and again, during the attack itself on the 17th?

12 A. No, they were not destroyed, except Ramo Kovac's and Omer Kovac's.

13 Q. With the exception of those two houses, is it fair to say that the

14 rest of the village was essentially still intact at the end of the attack

15 on the 17th of April?

16 A. Yes, virtually intact.

17 Q. And can you tell, can you tell the Chamber, were there -- excuse

18 me, was there a mosque in Sovici at this time?

19 A. Yes, there was.

20 Q. Can you indicate, please, to your knowledge, was the mosque in

21 Sovici used around that time or, to your knowledge, at any time for

22 military purposes?

23 A. Sir, I can't hear you.

24 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Do we have the problem with the

25 headphones?

Page 501

1 MR. SCOTT: Must be.

2 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] We have to make a break.

3 MR. SCOTT:

4 Q. Can you hear me now?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. All right. My question was, to your knowledge, was the mosque in

7 Sovici used for any sort of military purpose by the Territorial Defence?

8 A. No, it was never used that way.

9 Q. All right. And just so it's clear, I'm asking you, for instance,

10 to your knowledge, were any Territorial Defence members positioned in the

11 mosque or was anyone firing from the mosque on the 17th of April, to your

12 knowledge?

13 A. No, no. The mosque was never used for such purpose, nor could it

14 have been because about 50 metres away from it is a Croat settlement or

15 neighbourhood.

16 Q. And what is that area called, the Croat settlement?

17 A. Middle Mahala.

18 Q. Now, as you were still able to move around on the 17th of April,

19 can you tell the Chamber whether -- was the mosque still standing at the

20 end of the attack? At the conclusion of the attack on the 17th of April,

21 was the mosque still intact?

22 A. Yes. It was still standing at that time.

23 Q. All right, Witness A, before we go, then, back to the detention at

24 the school, I just want to cover this now, and we won't -- probably then

25 won't come back to it later. Did you understand or did you have knowledge

Page 502

1 that during the time that you were detained at the school in Sovici, that

2 your brother and four other Muslim men were killed outside the school by

3 the HVO?

4 A. Again, I did not quite well understand, and I'm again losing the

5 interpretation.

6 Q. All right, let me try again. Do you know, sir, whether your

7 brother and four other Muslim men were killed outside the Sovici school

8 some days after the attack? Not on the 17th of April, but some days

9 later.

10 A. No. We did not know about that, not until we were exchanged.

11 Q. All right. Then can you simply confirm to the Chamber that in

12 fact, though, your brother -- you learned that your brother was among

13 those who were, who were in fact killed?

14 A. Later when I was exchanged.

15 Q. All right. Now, let's go to the Sovici school itself. You were

16 searched first at this other house, and then you were taking -- you were

17 taken, excuse me, to the Sovici school, and I believe you indicated some

18 minutes ago that you were then beaten by HVO soldiers again at that

19 location. Is that correct?

20 A. Yes, that is correct. They took us out several times. For

21 instance, I was taken three times, interrogated, and beaten.

22 Q. All right. Well, let's go through those events a little more

23 specifically. When you arrived at the school for the first time, just

24 tell us what happened. How were you received? What happened to you when

25 you first got there?

Page 503

1 A. Again, I did not quite follow your question.

2 Q. All right. You were taken from the house where you were searched,

3 and you went then -- you were taken then to the Sovici school. When you

4 arrived at the Sovici school, were you taken in? Were you registered in

5 some way, or were you processed in by anyone on behalf of the HVO who

6 received you at that time?

7 A. Well, yes, most probably there was something. They wanted to

8 check whether they had all the men in their hands.

9 Q. And were you able to see and learn around this time that there

10 were a number of HVO soldiers in and around the Sovici school?

11 A. Well, yes, we knew because we had already seen what was going on

12 and what had happened.

13 Q. And did you come to have any knowledge or understanding as to from

14 which unit the HVO soldiers, which unit they were from, these soldiers who

15 were around at the school and around the school?

16 A. Well, we assumed that they were, as I said, Tuta's men.

17 Q. All right. And after you were then taken into the school or first

18 received, could you just tell the Chamber in your own words what happened

19 to you after that? Were you placed in any particular location where you

20 were held? And just tell us what happened next.

21 A. Yes, we were placed in the classrooms, and then we were

22 individually taken out to a room where teachers met, and that's where we

23 were abused and beaten.

24 Q. And can you tell us approximately how many Muslims were detained

25 at the school at that time, as best you could tell?

Page 504

1 A. About 75 men were there.

2 Q. All right. Now, I want to go to the first time that you were

3 questioned. And you've already told us, I believe, that you were

4 questioned or interrogated at least three different times, but let me take

5 you to the first time, please. Can you tell us what happened, and if you

6 could identify or remember the names of any of the persons who were

7 involved in questioning you, please tell us.

8 A. We did not manage ever to learn the names of those who were

9 questioning us. No, we were never able to learn their names.

10 Q. All right. Well, let me ask it this way: Did you recognise as

11 someone you knew one of the HVO soldiers who were questioning and beating

12 you? Did you recognise one of them as someone you had known before?

13 A. I recognised Ivan Robic [as interpreted].

14 Q. And tell us what happened on that first occasion again. How were

15 you treated? What happened?

16 A. As I said, I held my hands up against the wall with my legs spread

17 and then my pockets were searched. They patted me down the back and so

18 on.

19 Q. Just to finish up on this before the break, in addition then to

20 being searched yet again, were you also beaten and kicked at that time?

21 A. Yes. I was beaten on my back and in the area of kidneys.

22 Q. Now, before we take the break, Witness A, if I could possibly --

23 if I could get some clarification, if it's possible. It may not be, but

24 when you mention the name Ivan Rogic, is it -- can you assist us with, if

25 you know, the spelling of that name? Because I think in the transcript it

Page 505

1 may have been spelled with a B, R-o-b-i-c or R-o-d-i-c. Can you help us

2 any more with this individual's correct name?

3 A. Rogic, R-o-g-i-c.

4 Q. Thank you.

5 MR. SCOTT: Mr. Fourmy, we can break there, I believe.

6 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Very good timing. Thank you very

7 much, Mr. Prosecutor.

8 So now we shall have a 20-minute break. Will the usher please

9 help the witness out of the courtroom before we also rise.

10 Very well. We shall resume at 11.05. The session is adjourned.

11 --- Recess taken at 10.45 a.m.

12 --- On resuming at 11.05 a.m.

13 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you. We are resuming the

14 hearing. You may be seated.

15 Mr. Usher, will you bring the witness in, please.

16 For the technical booth, I have lost the image on the monitor. I

17 do not know if it's only this monitor or ...

18 Well, good morning once again. Do sit down, please. Witness, the

19 Prosecutor will now ask you some more questions. Please make yourself

20 comfortable, under the circumstances. Do relax, listen carefully to the

21 questions. If you do not understand something or you have something to

22 ask the Prosecutor, to ask him to clarify a matter, please do not hesitate

23 to do so. Please try to make yourself as comfortable in this courtroom,

24 which is slightly confined. Thank you.

25 Prosecutor.

Page 506

1 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. Fourmy.

2 Q. Witness A, just to move us on here, let me, if I can say it this

3 way: You've described your first interrogation and beating after being

4 received into, if you will, processed into Sovici school. Is it fair to

5 say that you were then subsequently questioned and beaten in a similar

6 manner a second and third time during the time that you were held at the

7 Sovici school? Is that correct?

8 A. It is correct, yes.

9 Q. Now, can you help us with this: Did you understand at the time

10 that you were the only one receiving this kind of treatment or will you

11 tell the Chamber, please, what you observed and understood in terms of

12 other Muslim prisoners being beaten and mistreated.

13 A. Yes. We were all beaten and mistreated.

14 Q. And did you have occasion to see and hear some of these other

15 beatings yourself?

16 A. Well, it wasn't a large area. One could hear cries of pain and

17 screams and beating, blows.

18 Q. Now, I want to direct your attention to one particular item before

19 moving on. On the morning of the 18th of April, can you tell the Chamber,

20 did some of the HVO soldiers attempt to give you and perhaps others with

21 you some food to eat?

22 A. Yes, a neighbour, former neighbour. Is he still -- I don't know.

23 I didn't see him since the war. Yes. He brought some food for us, but

24 those -- Tuta's soldiers took that food and turned it back.

25 Q. Now, later, on the 18th of April, were you and the other Muslim

Page 507

1 prisoners taken outside the school, into the school yard, where you

2 received a speech from an HVO person?

3 A. Yes. We were taken out of the school into the school yard. We

4 were lined up there, and Ivan Jovic [as interpreted] stood in front of us,

5 and he delivered a speech on movement towards Ljubuski.

6 Q. Now, just so the record is clear - I'm looking at the transcript -

7 was this the same man that you identified before the break as one of the

8 persons who received you at the school?

9 A. Yes. Yes. Rogic, yes.

10 MR. SCOTT: Mr. Fourmy, if it might, I think the transcript should

11 be corrected to say "Rogic," R-o-g-i-c. All right. Thank you.

12 Q. Now, can you tell us what was said during this speech by

13 Mr. Rogic? What did he say to you and what happened after that?

14 A. He read out something like an insurgence against the lawful

15 authority in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

16 Q. Was he indicating to you or accusing you and the others of being

17 involved in some sort of a Muslim rebellion?

18 A. Well, he didn't accuse us straightaway, but evidently we were not

19 only accused but convicted, seeing that we were in their hands.

20 Q. And could you tell the Chamber, please, to your knowledge, had

21 there at any time in the April of 1993, had the Muslims in fact engaged in

22 sort of a rebellion or offered any resistance to the Bosnian Croats or HVO

23 at that time?

24 A. No, never. What do I know? No, they didn't organise any, any

25 rebellion or any resistance until that day, until the 18th of April.

Page 508

1 Q. Now, during this speech or about the same time this speech was

2 made, could you tell the Chamber, did you come to see another individual

3 that you were able then to identify at some point, some other individual

4 that you saw at that location that you can tell us about?

5 A. I learnt later that it was Mr. Naletilic who had come in a car, in

6 a Campagnola [phoen] with his personal driver in a camouflage uniform.

7 Q. And so the record is clear, you with your own eyes saw

8 Mr. Naletilic in the school yard at the time that this speech was being

9 made; is that correct?

10 A. It is, it is.

11 Q. Now, Witness A, I want you to stop for a moment. I'd like you to

12 look around the courtroom, please, and can you -- tell us if you see the

13 person in the courtroom that you recognised and identified as

14 Mr. Naletilic on the 18th of April in Sovici.

15 A. Yes, the gentleman is here.

16 Q. Can you describe him for the record? The record has to have some

17 way of indicating which person of the people in the courtroom you're

18 referring to. Can you describe him to us briefly?

19 A. Well, he looked like -- well, he had long hair. Now it's slightly

20 shorter. And he had a longer beard.

21 MR. SCOTT: Mr. Fourmy, I would ask that the record reflect that

22 the witness identified the accused Naletilic.

23 Now, sir --

24 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, perhaps it could be more

25 specific about the accused which was recognised because we have two

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Page 510

1 accused. One does have a beard, another one doesn't, but that,

2 nevertheless, is not a sufficient identification, so that will you please

3 ask the witness to be more specific.

4 MR. SCOTT: Yes, of course. Thank you, Mr. Fourmy.

5 Q. Witness A, I'd like -- what I'd like you to do, please, if you can

6 look -- I don't want to direct your particular attention, but in your own

7 discretion, will you look about the courtroom and will you describe where

8 the person you've been trying to identify for us, just tell us

9 approximately where they are seated in the courtroom and where they are in

10 relation to other people in the courtroom.

11 A. Well, there. Well, between two policemen.

12 Q. All right. When you say -- it's in the front row or the back row

13 of that side of the courtroom on your -- you're looking on your left.

14 A. To the left, the second to the left, yes.

15 Q. All right. And there are two people in the back row that are not

16 dressed as security officers. Now, are you referring to -- as you look at

17 them, obviously one is just sitting to the left and one is sitting to the

18 right. Now, the person you're identifying, is that the one to the -- from

19 your vantage point, on the left side or the right side?

20 A. On the left side.

21 MR. SCOTT: All right. Mr. Fourmy, I hope that that's further

22 sufficient.

23 Q. Now, Witness A, let's go forward, then. After this speech was

24 made, did you -- were you and the other prisoners taken somewhere else?

25 Were you taken away from the Sovici school?

Page 511

1 A. Yes. They showed us the way to buses which were parked in front

2 of the school, and we were put in those buses and via Risolaca went in

3 Ljubuski.

4 Q. And what happened when you arrived in Ljubuski?

5 A. Well, what happened is unfortunately the worst imaginable.

6 Q. All right. Well, please tell us.

7 A. When we got off the bus parked in front of the former prison in

8 Ljubuski, we entered into some rooms down some stairs, and there was a

9 yard bounded by a concrete wall some three to four metres high. And the

10 HVO policemen then yelled, "Where are you balijas? Fuck you. Do you know

11 how many we have already slaughtered and how many eyes we've gouged out?"

12 Q. And then how long approximately were you held at the Ljubuski

13 location before being moved to another detention facility?

14 A. We spent some three or four months in Ljubuski.

15 Q. All right. Now, Witness A, let me go back to the bus trip itself.

16 Can you tell the Chamber, please, how were you and the other prisoners

17 treated during the bus trip from Sovici to Ljubuski?

18 A. Sure. During the ride towards Ljubuski and the soldiers who

19 escorted us on that bus, three or four men, one of them stood out in

20 particular. He moved through the bus and kicked people there.

21 Q. All right. Now, can you also tell us, when you, when you boarded

22 the bus in Sovici, can you tell us, were you on the same bus with another

23 Muslim prisoner named Dzemal Ovnovic?

24 A. Right.

25 Q. And in addition to --

Page 512

1 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Excuse me, Mr. Scott. Sorry to

2 interrupt you, but I didn't quite understand the name of that other person

3 who was on the same bus with the witness. Could you please either repeat

4 it or have it repeated?

5 MR. SCOTT: Mr. Fourmy, I believe it is Dzemal, D-z-e-m-al, with a

6 diacritic on the Z; last name Ovnovic, O-v-n-o-v-i-c, with a diacritic on

7 the C.

8 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you.

9 MR. SCOTT:

10 Q. Now, you've indicated, sir, that people were beaten while the bus

11 was in motion. Can you please tell the Chamber whether the bus stopped on

12 any occasion, and if the bus -- if the buses stopped on some occasion,

13 what happened then.

14 A. Yes. It stopped on various occasions and people were taken off

15 the bus and beaten.

16 Q. Now, were you able to identify or did you have an understanding as

17 to what unit these HVO soldiers were from, the ones who, if you will, were

18 the guards who took you on the bus to Ljubuski? Did you have an

19 understanding from which unit these men came?

20 A. Well, we didn't know. It was only when we arrived in Ljubuski we

21 learned that they were Tutici, Tuta's boys.

22 Q. And during the bus journey, can you also confirm to the Chamber,

23 please, were the Muslim prisoners forced to sing Ustasha songs?

24 A. Yes. Yes, we sang them.

25 Q. All right. And you told us what happened after you got in

Page 513

1 Ljubuski. You were put in some basement rooms and you stayed there for

2 several months. I think the only other question on that, Witness A, is

3 that during the time that you were at Ljubuski, were you ever taken to

4 work at any confrontation lines? Were you forced to work for the HVO at

5 any confrontation line?

6 A. Yes. Men were taken out every day to fortify lines and such

7 like.

8 Q. And that included you, sir?

9 A. It did. It did.

10 Q. All right. Now, after some months at Ljubuski, were you then

11 transported and taken to another location where you were then detained for

12 some months?

13 A. After Ljubuski, we were transferred to the Heliodrom in Mostar.

14 Q. And can you just tell us how that transfer came about? What do

15 you remember about that?

16 A. I remember that we were somewhere on the ground, Popovo Polje,

17 somewhere - I'm not familiar with the area - for a couple of days. And

18 when we returned to Ljubuski, to the camp there, we saw that the rest of

19 the folk who were with us were gone. And from some reliable sources, we

20 heard that they had been exchanged, and it was then that we really felt

21 bad. Well, now we were away and they're gone. They've been exchanged.

22 But the next day, we were also transferred to Heliodrom.

23 Q. Were you ever able to determine whether this other group, the

24 first group, if you will, had in fact been exchanged or did you find out

25 that, in fact, they were still detained?

Page 514

1 A. Yes, we found out. And how could we not when we found them in

2 those -- on those prison premises at Heliodrom?

3 Q. And is it correct then to say, sir, that apart from being taken

4 out for labour, that you continued to be detained thereafter at the

5 Heliodrom until approximately the 1st of March, 1994, when you were

6 exchanged and released?

7 A. Yes. You are quite right, sir.

8 Q. All right. Now, can you tell us a little bit more about the

9 Heliodrom itself? What type of people did you see held at the Heliodrom?

10 A. All those that I saw were detained Muslims, civilians. There were

11 women too, minors.

12 Q. And approximately would you say how many Muslim prisoners did you

13 see at the Heliodrom during this time?

14 A. Approximately 3.000 to 5.000. We learned that that was the

15 number.

16 MR. SCOTT: Mr. Fourmy, I may just indicate that of course we're

17 working here without the benefit of opening statement and other witnesses

18 coming before, but I don't think there would be any dispute. The

19 Heliodrom was a military camp or had been a military camp near Mostar.

20 Just for your information.

21 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] If you allow me, Prosecutor, I think

22 the question is: What is the Heliodrom? I know there is a debate between

23 you whether it was a camp or not. That is a discussion between the

24 Defence in which I do not wish to participate or take part, but thank you

25 for notifying me.

Page 515

1 MR. KRSNIK: Yes. I also was about to intervene and to say the

2 same thing. So thank you.

3 MR. SCOTT: Mr. Fourmy, I appreciate that. There was no effort to

4 characterise it necessarily other than what the witness himself has

5 already said. Simply for purposes of location since we have moved now

6 from several places, I was trying to assist you that this was another

7 location near the city of Mostar, and that's the only purpose in which it

8 was done.

9 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. I think now we

10 understand it all and thank you.

11 MR. SCOTT:

12 Q. Now, let me ask you, Witness A, during the time that you were

13 detained at the Heliodrom, did you see this individual who you've

14 identified as Mr. Naletilic or Tuta? Did you see him at the Heliodrom?

15 A. Yes. I saw him several times in front of the building. He would

16 pass there in his car and on a number occasions on foot.

17 Q. Did you have any understanding or information that Mr. Naletilic

18 had any sort of office or headquarters or facility at the Heliodrom which

19 he used on occasion?

20 A. Yes. He had his offices there, yes.

21 Q. Now, in addition to the HVO, and I'm using that term very

22 specifically at the moment, during the time that you were at the Heliodrom

23 and in the Mostar area, did you see soldiers from other units besides the

24 HVO?

25 A. I did, yes. I saw the HV.

Page 516

1 Q. And how did you identify these other soldiers as from the HV as

2 opposed to the HVO? On what information did you base that?

3 A. Because there was a road leading in front of the building. I saw

4 the HV insignia several times.

5 Q. Now, can you tell the Chamber, please, during the time that you

6 were held at the Heliodrom, were you ever forced to engage in labour with

7 the HVO?

8 A. Yes. We were forced daily to go out to the front line to dig

9 trenches and so on.

10 Q. All right. Now, would you please describe for us -- you've

11 indicated this happened on a daily basis. Just tell us the steps that

12 would be taken. What was the process for you to be taken from the

13 barracks, to be selected to be taken from the barracks and to be taken to

14 Mostar? If you could just describe the details of that, please.

15 A. Yes, I can. The soldiers and commanders would come in trucks in

16 front of the building where we were, and they would ask for a certain

17 number of prisoners that they needed and then they would put us on those

18 trucks. Some had canopies, some did not. And then we were taken to work

19 on fortifying their positions.

20 Q. Now, directing your attention during this time, did you ever come

21 to engage in forced labour -- let me start over again.

22 Tell us more about the locations that you were taken in Mostar.

23 Where were you taken and what were you required to do?

24 A. Let me tell you something; I did not know the city of Mostar that

25 well, especially when I arrived there to that side. I was not 100 per

Page 517

1 cent sure what area I was in and where I was.

2 Q. All right. Let me be clear then. I'm not asking you for any

3 street names at this point, but generally speaking - excuse me - where in

4 Mostar were you taken? Was it to the confrontation line?

5 A. Yes, exactly, to the separation line.

6 Q. All right. Now, during this time, do you remember that on some of

7 the occasions when you'd be taken to the confrontation line area that

8 there was a cafe or a bar near this confrontation line that somehow

9 featured -- somehow was involved, that you remember, in some of the times

10 that you were taken to the confrontation line?

11 A. Yes. I was near that line and near the coffee bar that you

12 mentioned. It is -- it belonged to Mr. Stela. I don't know exactly his

13 actual name. But we were brought there and mistreated, and he -- we were

14 forced to lie down facing the ground.

15 Q. Do you remember during these occasions, did Mr. -- well, the

16 person you referred to as Stela, did Stela say anything to the group of

17 you as you were laying on the ground?

18 A. Yes. The men from his group said, "Look at balijas," and then

19 cursed our mothers, and then they said, "Are we going to slit their

20 throats, gouge their eyes," things like that. And then that's in this

21 cafe, that's where the Ustasha songs were sung. And Mr. Stela recognised

22 Mr. Hasim Mulic. I think they must have been in prison together earlier.

23 And he took him along for a drink, and the rest of us were mistreated by

24 soldiers.

25 Q. And can you tell the Chamber, during the times that you were taken

Page 518

1 to the confrontation line and on these occasions when you saw - I'm just

2 going to for now use your reference - Mr. Stela, were you or any of the

3 other soldiers beaten by Mr. Stela?

4 A. As I said, Mr. Stela took Hasim Mulic for drinks, and the rest of

5 them, they beat people. And I wouldn't know what Mr. Stela was doing with

6 Hasim over there.

7 Q. All right. Well, let me be clear. Not only on this particular

8 occasion, but would it be fair to say that you went to the confrontation

9 line in connection with Mr. Stela on several occasions?

10 A. Yes. I came to this forced labour on two occasions, to his

11 place. (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 Q. All right.

14 A. And a man from Bosnia, I think his name was Haris, first name.

15 Q. What happened to him? We're going to come to this. You've gotten

16 a bit ahead of us, which is fine. What happened to Mr. Haris?

17 A. Well, he was killed there, exactly in that area.

18 Q. So he was killed while being engaged in forced labour on the

19 confrontation line; is that correct?

20 A. Yes, that is exactly what happened.

21 Q. All right. Now, let me go back. Apart from the instance where

22 you've told us --

23 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Excuse me, Mr. Scott, I have to

24 interrupt you. Perhaps regarding the names, it is not always easy to

25 understand them. Unfortunately, we're not familiar with those names so it

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Page 520

1 is not easy for us to understand, so will you please see to it that

2 individuals are properly identified. On the other hand, it may not be

3 desirable for certain persons to be identified, at least, in the

4 transcript. Thank you.

5 MR. SCOTT: Yes. Mr. Fourmy, of course I'll try to assist you in

6 every way that we can. Probably the name of the one person who was killed

7 I do not have written down. I'll have to ask the witness if he can assist

8 us.

9 Q. Can you say again, please, Witness A, the name of this person who

10 you indicated was killed on the confrontation line.

11 A. Yes, I can repeat it. As far as I can recall, his name was Haris,

12 H-a-r-i-s. He was from Bosnia. He used to work in Croatia and then was

13 transferred to the prison.

14 MR. SCOTT: Mr. Fourmy, on the other name, I think it might have a

15 tendency to identify the witness, so I think, other than what he's already

16 said, I wouldn't identify it further. If --

17 Q. Let me put it this way, Witness A, because, of course, you're

18 testifying under protective measures, and I don't want you to mention this

19 other name again.

20 MR. SCOTT: And if it has been mentioned, then we'd ask that it

21 be -- the transcript be corrected by striking it.

22 Q. But was there another -- in any event, did you see another Muslim

23 prisoner, and really the name is not so important at the moment, but who

24 was wounded while engaged in forced labour at the confrontation line?

25 (redacted)

Page 521

1 [redacted]

2 MR. SCOTT: We'll have to --

3 [redacted]

4 MR. SCOTT: Mr. Fourmy, we'll have to correct that, please.

5 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Yes, the registrar will take care of

6 that.

7 MR. SCOTT:

8 Q. Now, Witness A, let's go back for a moment. You were taken to

9 Stela's part of the confrontation line, you've indicated twice, so I'm not

10 talking about just the one unit where the one -- excuse me, the one

11 instance where the gentleman was taken for a drink, but during these

12 occasions, did you see the person you identified as Mr. Stela, did you see

13 him beating any of the Muslim prisoners?

14 A. Yes. I saw him beating Mirsad Kukic.

15 Q. Yes, and anyone else?

16 A. Yes. Enes Kladusak.

17 Q. And on other occasions when you saw other men that were at this --

18 HVO soldiers who on this part of the confrontation line who were beating

19 the prisoners, please tell the Chamber, did you at any time see Mr. Stela

20 intervene or prevent soldiers from being -- prisoners, excuse me,

21 prisoners from being beaten?

22 A. No, I never saw him do that.

23 Q. And to your knowledge, sir, were you ever aware that any of these

24 soldiers were punished by Mr. Stela because they had beaten Muslim

25 prisoners?

Page 522

1 A. No, I never saw him punish anyone in any way.

2 MR. SCOTT: Mr. Fourmy, in light of your earlier request, I think

3 on those two names, if I could be allowed to assist you. It's Mirsad

4 Kukic, M-i-r-s-a-d, then last name, K-u-k-i-c with a diacritic on the C.

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you.

8 MR. SCOTT: Mr. Fourmy, if you'll give me -- we've covered many of

9 the topics. I'm just reviewing my notes now to see where we are.

10 Q. Can you tell us, Witness A, on the day that the one individual

11 that's been mentioned, and again, I'm not going to mention a name again

12 and I ask you not to do so, but on the day that you were telling us about

13 a few minutes ago when one man was wounded and another man was killed, can

14 you tell us, please, tell the Chamber, which unit, which HVO unit were you

15 working for on the day that those things happened?

16 A. Well, precisely for the unit of this man that we called Stela.

17 Q. Now, apart from the confrontation line, were you ever taken, taken

18 from Mostar to perform labour at any other location during the time you

19 were held?

20 A. Yes, we were taken to locations around Mostar. I wouldn't be able

21 to tell you the exact names of these locations, but it was all within the

22 city of Mostar.

23 Q. Let me ask you, do you remember going to a house, a house of two

24 brothers where you were required to perform labour?

25 A. Yes.

Page 523

1 Q. And do you remember the names of these brothers or, at least if

2 not their actual names, however they were referred to at the time?

3 A. Yes, I can recall that. They were called Strumpfovi, and one of

4 the two of them had a nickname Drago.

5 Q. All right. Now, can you please assist us, if you're able to,

6 Witness A, when you say Strumpfovi, can you give us any idea how that's

7 spelled?

8 A. That's how it's spelled.

9 Q. Okay. Let me ask it this way: What does Strumpfovi mean, if you

10 know? What does it refer to? I believe it's a character, a cartoon

11 character, if I can help you in that way.

12 A. Well, yes, of course, but that's how I know them as.

13 Q. All right. I think we need not pursue that further, but that's

14 the way you identified these two brothers was by this reference to

15 Strumpfovi; is that correct?

16 A. Exactly.

17 Q. And then one also was called Drago, if I heard you correctly?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. What did you do for these two men?

20 A. Well, we worked there. In fact, he was building a very nice house

21 which looked like a big building. He had started it before the war but

22 didn't manage to finish it, so he was taking us up there to work on it.

23 Q. And approximately how many times do you recall going to this house

24 of these brothers to work on?

25 A. Well, for about a month. We worked on it for about a month.

Page 524

1 Q. Now, did you have any knowledge or understanding as to what HVO

2 unit these two soldiers belonged to?

3 A. Yes. They were in the military police at the so-called Tuta's

4 military police.

5 Q. And how do you know that? You've told us that. What do you base

6 that on?

7 A. Mr. Drago told me that that was what he was part of, and he had an

8 armband with a sign with the letters VP.

9 Q. Witness A, you mentioned a few minutes ago that while you were

10 held at the Heliodrom that you also saw -- in addition to HVO soldiers,

11 you saw also HV soldiers. Can you tell the Chamber, please, whether or

12 not you also saw HV soldiers at the confrontation line in Mostar?

13 A. In fact, they most probably were coming there as some kind of

14 special unit when they had to, let's say, breach some part of the line or

15 something like that.

16 Q. Now, apart from the forced labour that you were required to do,

17 can you please tell the Chamber, were you and other Muslim prisoners ever

18 forced to engage in looting houses in Mostar?

19 A. Yes. Several times we were sent to do just that.

20 Q. Just tell us briefly.

21 MR. SCOTT: Mr. Fourmy, we're not going to spend a lot of time on

22 this topic.

23 Q. But can you tell us briefly how that would be carried out.

24 A. Yes, I can. One morning, and I couldn't put a date on it, I

25 cannot recall that, when it was, but some soldiers came in a police van.

Page 525

1 I wouldn't be able to say to which unit they belonged, but they went

2 exclusively to loot. They took us to a building where we personally had

3 to do this. They would not ring any doorbells or anything. They would

4 just break through the door and then they would tell us what we needed to

5 pick up and take away.

6 Q. And what sorts of things would you take away?

7 A. Home appliances and furniture, things like that.

8 Q. Now, Witness A, the final topic I would like to discuss with you

9 in your testimony today is were you ever used as what has been described

10 as a human shield?

11 A. Yes. I found myself in such a situation too. Several prisoners

12 would be tied together. Actually, not really tied, but we had to hold

13 hands, and they would push us in front of them at the line of

14 confrontation, and a soldier would be behind us and shoot above us or by

15 us, and we would be given some wooden rifles and made to march in the

16 direction of ABiH.

17 Q. And can you tell us how many times, approximately, did that happen

18 to you?

19 A. I experienced it twice, personally.

20 Q. And during these occasions, can you tell the Chamber, were any of

21 the Muslim prisoners who were being used as human shields in this fashion,

22 were any of them wounded or killed?

23 A. Osman Lulic was wounded, as was Hasanbasic [as interpreted].

24 MR. SCOTT: On those, Mr. Fourmy, I think Osman is O-s-m-a-n,

25 Lulic, L-u-l-i-c with a diacritic on the c, and I think the second one --

Page 526

1 I'm sorry.

2 Q. Witness A, can you say the second name again, the second person

3 who you indicated was wounded?

4 A. Yes. That was Hasan Tasic.

5 Q. Now, did you know that these -- did you know these men also from

6 Sovici?

7 (redacted)

8 Q. Now, I want to direct your attention to a particular incident in

9 about January 1994. Were you beaten and a gun fired at you around that

10 time?

11 A. In January 1994?

12 Q. Approximately.

13 A. No. I was exchanged in January 1994.

14 Q. Okay. Let me go back. Putting the date to one side, during the

15 time that you were being held at the Heliodrom but also taken to perform

16 forced labour at various locations, do you recall an incident when you

17 were not only beaten but that an HVO fired a gun at you?

18 A. No.

19 Q. All right. Witness A, let me try it this way. Perhaps I've given

20 you the wrong reference point. Perhaps it was while you were at

21 Ljubuski. Let me approach it this way --

22 MR. SCOTT: And I'm trying, Mr. Fourmy, not to lead the witness

23 any more than necessary.

24 Q. -- do you recall a time when you were coming back from being

25 engaged in forced labour somewhere and on coming back to where you were

Page 527

1 held, there were some beatings going on, and you wanted to stay outside of

2 the building to avoid being beaten?

3 A. Yes. I remember it quite well.

4 Q. All right. Tell us what happened, please.

5 A. Yes, I'll try. I'll try to explain it as best I can. On that

6 day, a soldier, most probably he was a commander because we referred to

7 him as such, took four or five of us near Heliodrom to a place Jesenica,

8 and we did some private things for him. However, he was a very good man

9 and he understood things. He had been imprisoned by the Chetniks. So he

10 behaved very correctly to us. And while we worked and when we finished

11 working, he brought us back to the Heliodrom, to the prison, and as soon

12 as -- when we arrived there, he rang the bell because you had to ring a

13 bell, but we heard some noises. Unfortunately, I heard that this

14 gentleman has been killed since. And we could hear screams and shouts,

15 and they were beating prisoners in there. And when the door opened, those

16 who were working there with me were able to come in. And Robi, that was

17 the name of this man, he and I sort of stayed out. And then this man from

18 there said, "Balijas, are you there?" And he started cursing us and then

19 the beating started, and that's how it was.

20 Q. Now, I think we better make sure the record is clear because

21 you've mentioned two people now. One had taken you out to perform this

22 labour which you've described as some sort of private work, and then

23 you've described a second person who -- just now who said something

24 about -- forgive me if I say -- said something about balijas. Then you

25 also -- you also mentioned the name Robi. So could you please tell us so

Page 528

1 that we can be clear, which person are you referring to of those two as

2 Robi?

3 A. Of course. Robi was the soldier who came there to beat people and

4 mistreat them.

5 Q. All right. Now, with that clarification, go ahead and finish the

6 story in terms, please, of what happened to you. What did -- what did

7 Robi do to you?

8 A. Well, unfortunately, what happened to me was what led to my

9 actually staying alive. Robi started beating me with his rifle butt all

10 over the body, and he kept beating me and hitting me until he had enough,

11 and I somehow managed to throw myself near a rosebush. However, I think

12 that he was fed up beating me. And then he took the rifle, which we

13 called a Gypsy, and he cocked it, and the person who had brought us to the

14 building, that commander, managed to push him away so that he missed me.

15 His bullet hit the ground right next to my head. And as he managed to

16 push him away, he saw people in the windows. And then as he saw people

17 staring out the windows, he started shooting at them.

18 Q. Now, can you tell the Chamber, please, Witness A, did you know --

19 did you know which unit this Robi was part of?

20 A. Yes. Well, not 100 per cent, but many of our men, detainees, said

21 that he belonged to the Convicts Battalion, that is.

22 Q. And in fact, can you tell the Chamber, had you seen this same Robi

23 on the 17th of April when Sovici was attacked?

24 A. Well, not that I really saw him or that I really see him or

25 recognise him, but those others, they said that he really stood out on

Page 529

1 that occasion.

2 Q. Very well, Witness A. In conclusion, then, you were, I think you

3 said a moment ago January, but sometime after the first of the year 1994,

4 you were exchanged and released as a prisoner; is that correct?

5 A. Yes, that's quite correct.

6 Q. I think only one final question, sir. Did you -- during all this

7 time that you were held either at the Sovici school or at Ljubuski or at

8 the Heliodrom, did you ever see or learn that there were any foreign

9 soldiers or members of the HVO? When I say "foreign," that did not appear

10 to be Bosnian Croat?

11 A. Yes. On one occasion, I saw a man whom they called Svabo Fric,

12 and he was a sniper, and he just murdered a man for a bar of chocolate.

13 MR. SCOTT: And, Mr. Fourmy, I believe the name is Svabo.

14 Q. And did you identify this Svabo with any particular, again, unit

15 or part of those fighting for the HVO?

16 A. No. I could never find that out, nor was it the time to find

17 anything out. All one did was try to save his life.

18 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. Fourmy. I have no further questions.

19 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you. And now the Defence.

20 Mr. Seric, have you agreed in which order you will undertake the

21 cross-examination? Will Mr. Krsnik be the first one?

22 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Yes, I will be the first one.

23 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] You have the floor.

24 Cross-examined by Mr. Krsnik:

25 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness A. I am Mr. Krsnik, and I

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Page 531

1 am Defence counsel for the accused Naletilic. Could you please turn a

2 little bit so I can see you? Thank you very much.

3 Witness, can you tell me, do you remember the 3rd of January,

4 1996, 3rd of May, 1997, and the 27th November 2000? Do you know what

5 happened then?

6 A. No, no. Could you clarify?

7 Q. No, no, no. Just answer my questions. Do you know what happened

8 on those dates?

9 A. No.

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 A. I made a statement. Whether it was on that occasion ...

14 Q. Did you make the statement of your -- autonomously?

15 A. What do you mean "autonomously"?

16 Q. Well, do you remember, when did you give it? How long did it

17 take? Did you come of your own will or were you summoned?

18 A. I was summoned.

19 Q. Why did they summon you?

20 A. Well, precisely for that, to make a statement.

21 Q. But why you?

22 A. Well, because I went through what I went through.

23 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel and the witness make a pause

24 between the question and answer.

25 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

Page 532

1 Q. And you also talked with the investigators of this Tribunal or,

2 rather, the OTP, didn't you?

3 A. I'm sorry?

4 Q. You also spoke with the investigators of the OTP, of this

5 Tribunal?

6 A. Well, yes. We talked.

7 Q. But did you also talk with them after you arrived in The Hague

8 now?

9 A. No, not now.

10 Q. I'll come back to that later. Tell me, when I said that you made

11 this statement to the AID of your own will, what I meant was nobody

12 suggested it to you?

13 A. No, nobody did.

14 Q. Do you remember, how long did it take you to make that statement?

15 A. Well, some ten or 15 minutes.

16 Q. Ten or 15 minutes?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And on the 3rd of May, 1997, do you remember how long it took you

19 then to make your statement?

20 A. Well, again, it lasted 15 to 20 minutes. Not more than that.

21 Q. And in the year 2000, too?

22 A. Well, I'm saying I wouldn't know the year or the date.

23 Q. Well, the last one --

24 THE INTERPRETER: The counsel's microphone is switched off.

25 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Mr. Krsnik, will you please -- if I

Page 533

1 may interrupt you for a moment merely to tell you that every time when

2 people speak the same language, two persons, it causes problems with

3 interpretation. Unfortunately, I do not speak your language, nor the

4 language of this witness. I really cannot expect to follow what you are

5 saying, and especially in the transcript for French.

6 So please, Mr. Krsnik, or will you please make a break between

7 your question -- between the answer and your question, and Witness A, will

8 you please just pause a little before you answer the lawyer's question

9 because that will allow me to follow better, and I believe that everybody

10 is in the same situation. Thank you.

11 Yes, Mr. Krsnik.

12 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13 Q. I'm asking you this, Witness, because the first statement is on a

14 page and a half, the second statement made to the gentleman from the OTP

15 on three pages, and your final statement in the year 2000, that is eight

16 years after the event you described, that statement was eight pages long.

17 Does it mean that you -- that your memory is fresher today than it was in

18 1986 [as interpreted]?

19 A. Well, you see, I can tell you the whole history.

20 Q. No, you only answer my questions.

21 A. I am trying also to ask you to make it briefer.

22 Q. No. Will you please concentrate on what I'm asking you and answer

23 this question: Do you recall -- is your memory better today than -- or

24 was it better eight years ago?

25 A. Well, of course it should have been eight years ago, but still

Page 534

1 from one day to the other, things still come to me.

2 Q. Please answer my question. You say that your memory was better in

3 1993 than it is today. Is that correct?

4 A. It is.

5 Q. And when you spoke and made a statement to the AID, did you tell

6 the truth then?

7 A. Only the truth.

8 Q. And when the second time you spoke with the OTP, did you again

9 speak the truth?

10 A. Strictly the truth.

11 Q. And on the third occasion?

12 A. Again, only the truth.

13 THE INTERPRETER: Will the counsel and the witness please pause

14 between question and answer.

15 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

16 Q. I'll come back to this later.

17 You said that you were arrested as the member of the TO. Do you

18 mean the Territorial Defence by this?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Is the territorial -- was the territorial -- did the Territorial

21 Defence exist until the 17th of April?

22 A. Yes, it did.

23 Q. And the TO was made of Croats and Bosniaks, wasn't it?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And now will you please tell me, the Croats and Bosniaks, were

Page 535

1 they together in the trenches until the 18th of April in Sovici?

2 A. Well, not exactly until the 18th of April, but right up to the

3 conflict, yes. Thereabouts, but I couldn't really tell you exactly.

4 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I apologise, Mr. Fourmy, but my

5 microphone switches off. I don't know why. I've just noticed that.

6 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Mr. Krsnik, it is perhaps that your

7 microphone does not manage to keep this frenetic pace between you and the

8 witness. Perhaps if you do make a pause, perhaps it will remain on.

9 Thank you.

10 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] It is difficult, Mr. Fourmy, because

11 these are answers that -- I'm listening to the answers in my language, in

12 my own language, and of course it is much faster than usual, but I shall

13 do my best, you know. In cross-examination it's sometimes very important

14 that when a witness answers, to respond immediately, which of course is

15 the purpose of the cross-examination. That is not so in your law or ours,

16 but that is how things are here, so we have to do it.

17 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] I think we all need to learn this

18 procedure.

19 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Yes, of course, of course. Thank

20 you.

21 Q. And how long were you with Croats together in the TO and what

22 happened after that?

23 A. Well, it's just one village, so we're all mixed, Croats and

24 Muslims, and we were together for about seven days, I should -- until

25 about seven days.

Page 536

1 Q. Seven days. What seven days?

2 A. Before the attack on the village.

3 Q. If we are reckoning from the 17th of April, so seven days back?

4 And all that time, seven days before that, seven days before that you

5 parted ways; is that it?

6 A. Yes, correct.

7 Q. Very well. Now, tell me, how did you part ways? In Sovici, I

8 mean.

9 A. Well, it was like this: Zijad, Zijad was the chief of this what

10 you call it, TO, and Stipo was his deputy, and that's how I know that,

11 that it was. And then Stipe Kopilas ordered us to go left because they

12 did and walked wherever they wanted.

13 Q. I didn't understand your answer, but we have plenty of time and we

14 shall, I think, clarify it. There's plenty of time, and you are here so

15 we can learn the truth. Yes, that's why you are here. You said Kopilas

16 or Koplar?

17 A. Kopilas.

18 Q. And he issued the order to whom?

19 A. Well, we were together then. He ordered us, I mean, members of

20 this - what is it? - TO to go, and he ordered us to go and dig trenches on

21 Mackovica. I mean, they were -- it made no sense to do it there, but

22 members of the HVO, well, today's HVO, they walked around and did as they

23 pleased.

24 Q. If I understand you well, are you saying that Stipe Kopilas who

25 was the deputy chief whose name was Zijo?

Page 537

1 A. Zijo, let me see if it will come to me. Salihamidzic,

2 Salihamidzic.

3 Q. So Salihamidzic was the commander in chief?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And you want to say that his deputy ordered you, and "you" you

6 mean Muslims or everybody, both Croats and Muslims?

7 A. He had ordered it to all, but when we went up there, we were naive

8 and --

9 Q. Uh-huh, you were naive. So who was the commander, the Kopilas or

10 Salihamidzic?

11 A. I wouldn't --

12 Q. Please answer this question. Excuse me, you are here to --

13 THE INTERPRETER: And will the counsel and the witness please make

14 a break.

15 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Mr. Krsnik, really, I think that even

16 in my language I have difficulty following you. This is the first thing I

17 have to tell you.

18 Secondly, I must really ask you, as I have asked the Prosecutor,

19 when there are names which figure which appear, the surnames, the witness

20 will remember the persons naturally, but if you or if the witness mentions

21 a name, I think it is important that we really know how to spell them. At

22 least, it is very important for the transcript. It is also very important

23 if one is to identify the person, especially one name crops up frequently

24 and we speak about the same name.

25 Now, who is the chief or the deputy chief of the Territorial

Page 538

1 Defence, that is, a Muslim and a Croat from Bosnia, then evidently it is

2 important for this case. And therefore in your questions, will you please

3 allow us to know how they are.

4 So once again I do apologise for intervening, but will you please,

5 I must insist that you speak slower and to manage a pause between question

6 and answer. Thank you.

7 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Yes, I understand, but I get carried

8 away. Perhaps you didn't even manage -- perhaps our interpreters did not

9 manage to interpret this, and I really thank them for the effort they are

10 making. The witness namely answered in a very adverse tone.

11 Q. You will not be asking me questions and additional questions, that

12 is why I responded and said you are here to answer questions.

13 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] So that is perhaps why we have this

14 problem with the interpreters. I apologise to them, and I shall do my

15 best to focus and really wait for every answer.

16 Q. The TO commander in Sovici was now, again, for the transcript, and

17 let us have the witness repeat the last name of the gentleman who was the

18 commander.

19 A. I do not really want to repeat the same thing over and over again.

20 I said Zijad Salihamidzic.

21 Q. And that is for the transcript, for the record, Salihamidzic. He

22 didn't issue orders to you, did he?

23 A. No, not to us personally because he had his deputy, the one that I

24 mentioned, Stipe Kopilas, and he gave us orders.

25 Q. So Mr. Salihamidzic ordered Mr. Kopilas, again for the transcript,

Page 539

1 K-o-p-i-l-a-z [as interpreted] with a diacritic mark. And then he

2 ordered, issued orders to you, members of the TO, or did you have any

3 subunits?

4 A. I wouldn't know what that word means, "subunit."

5 Q. Well, I mean escort a platoon or whatever. I don't really know

6 the military terminology.

7 A. No. We never had that.

8 Q. So Kopilas transmitted the command of the chief commander, and you

9 were all to carry it out?

10 A. Yes, naturally, as we did.

11 Q. So why -- what's so odd about it, when you said that Kopilas

12 issued order to you, to you, and you were naive?

13 A. Well, it just turned out that way because that is how we were

14 taken. We were taken into the fog.

15 Q. But the order came from your commander?

16 A. Well, that is why -- that's it.

17 Q. So he must have known what he was ordering.

18 A. Well, to my mind, he didn't.

19 Q. So Salihamidzic didn't know what he was ordering?

20 A. No, he didn't.

21 Q. Tell me, the lines facing the Chetniks, where were they?

22 A. Well, it's ridiculous when you say "facing the Chetniks," because

23 in our areas up there, there was no need for such a line.

24 Q. Did you ever fight against the Chetniks?

25 A. No, never.

Page 540

1 Q. You know, I make a distinction between the army of Republika

2 Srpska and the Chetniks. And the line against the army of Republika

3 Srpska?

4 A. Yes. When I returned from the camp, then I was in kind of a

5 labour platoon.

6 Q. No, no, no, no. I'm talking about lines, about defence lines of

7 Sovici facing the army of Republika Srpska.

8 A. No.

9 Q. Then why did you dig the trenches and where did you dig them? Why

10 did you and when did you start digging them?

11 A. Well, that's what I'm asking myself. I mean, why did we do that?

12 Because to me, it was nonsensical even then to -- how could anybody think

13 that those trenches could serve against the Chetniks?

14 Q. In a trench at Pasje Stijene, was the BH [Realtime transcript read

15 in error: "Bihac"] army; isn't it?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. In the trenches from Pasje Stijene to 905 feature and along that

18 line was the BH army; isn't it?

19 A. What feature?

20 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Excuse me, Mr. Krsnik. You seem much

21 more familiar than I am with names and places and everything else, and

22 units and so on and so forth. Now I see here on page 60, the BH army in

23 the English transcript and I believe that this is the army of Bosnia and

24 Herzegovina; isn't it? Because from my point of view, I do not know --

25 just a moment. You also made an allusion that you distinguished between -

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Page 542

1 excuse me. I'm using the words that you are here - between the Chetniks

2 and the army of Republika Srpska, but you should again perhaps see whether

3 the witness also makes this distinction, because the witness keeps saying

4 "Chetniks," and I'm not sure if he's aware of that distinction which you

5 drew.

6 So one thing is that you know places, names, and events. So will

7 you please help us in that respect. And also, will you please help the

8 witness to answer your questions, because I think that it is, even for the

9 witness, difficult to follow you. Do you know -- because you know where

10 you are going, but the witness doesn't, not yet.

11 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] The witness can follow me very

12 easily. The witness knows the difference between Chetniks and the army of

13 Republika Srpska, and my question was the army of BH, meaning the army the

14 Bosnia-Herzegovina, not the Bihac, and my colleague is following the

15 transcript -- I apologise.

16 Then I'll -- if I may, Mr. Fourmy, I see it is not in the

17 transcript, because my colleague shows -- says that the way I ask my

18 question and the answer of the witness, that is on the line and the

19 trenches at a place called -- that is, the locality called Pasje Stijene

20 or Stijene, that there were members of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

21 The witness said, "Yes."

22 My second question was -- because witness knows what I'm talking

23 about, and of course I realise that you are now at sea, but we shall come

24 to the main hearing and then we shall have maps and everything will be

25 much simpler, but now all I want to know is the answer from the witness,

Page 543

1 because the witness has lived all his life in Sovici.

2 Q. From Pasje Stijene to 905 feature, there was also a line and there

3 were also trenches there. Now, I am still awaiting an answer to this

4 question.

5 A. Well, since you are mentioning feature 5 something, then I'd like

6 you to give me the name of the locality, because that feature, I have no

7 idea where that is.

8 Q. Do you know where you enter Doljani?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And then as you look from Sovici to Doljani and to the left, there

11 is an elevation and it is called 905 feature. It was well kept or,

12 rather, that was the BH army's feature, line. Are you aware of that?

13 A. No, no, no. I'm not. No, I am not. No. I know that it wasn't

14 there.

15 Q. That wasn't there what?

16 A. I'm saying that no, it was not there. That's how I know.

17 Q. You mean there were no lines or trenches?

18 A. There were none.

19 Q. You mean none?

20 A. None.

21 Q. And was there a front at Sovicka Vrata towards Ilijina Greda?

22 A. I don't know where Ilijina Greda is. And the Sovicka Vrata, yes,

23 the HVO was fortifying positions there and digging some canals.

24 Q. And who manned Sovicka Vrata?

25 A. The HVO.

Page 544

1 Q. Are you sure?

2 A. No. Yes, I am sure. Hundred per cent.

3 Q. Do you know where the TV relay is above the Sovicka Vrata?

4 A. You mean now?

5 Q. Yes, now.

6 A. It is a place called Borovnik. Yes, I know it.

7 Q. And who manned the line between Borovnik and Pasje Stijene? There

8 was a line of trenches and bunkers there?

9 A. From Borovnik to Pasje Stijene, it was the HVO.

10 Q. Wasn't it a joint trench; that is, you both used it, communicated

11 and talked?

12 A. At the time when the trenches were dug, then it was said that it

13 was being done to fight against the Serbs. Later on, it turned out that

14 it was against --

15 Q. Tell us where -- when you were -- when you were told that it will

16 be against the Serb, what year was it?

17 A. The year. Let me see. It was 1990. 1991. Something like that.

18 Q. You were digging trenches against the Serbs in 1991 at the

19 locality that we just mentioned?

20 A. Yeah.

21 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Mr. Krsnik, I have to interrupt you,

22 but it is now past half past twelve. We could now make a break of one

23 hour and a half.

24 The Prosecutor, do you agree?

25 I think it will be best if the witness returns in the early

Page 545

1 afternoon and then we shall be able to finish with the witness's

2 deposition today, and if this is convenient to both parties, we shall then

3 make a break after the end of this testimony and resume tomorrow morning.

4 Would that be agreeable with you?

5 MR. SCOTT: Mr. Fourmy, that's exactly agreeable. Thank you.

6 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Mr. Krsnik, Mr. Seric, will that be

7 all right with you?

8 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Absolutely.

9 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Very well. That is what we shall do

10 now.

11 I will ask the witness to leave, with the usher's help. Witness,

12 we shall now have an hour and a half break, and we shall be back here at

13 2.00 to resume. Thank you very much.

14 And as before, while the witness is leaving the courtroom,

15 Mr. Krsnik, yes, please. Mr. Krsnik, please, while the witness is leaving

16 the courtroom, I should like to propose and this -- because the Prosecutor

17 also envisaged the possibility of using some exhibits during the

18 depositions of these witnesses. Perhaps you could do the same thing. I

19 do not know whether you intend to during your cross-examination, and

20 needless to say, I'm not going to interfere with it, but if you think that

21 you want -- that you'd like to use a document, for instance, a map,

22 however rough -- as far as I'm concerned, I am completely lost when it

23 comes to all these names, because I really am poorly acquainted with the

24 local geography. I know something about Mostar but not those villages, so

25 I really have no idea what trenches you are talking about even though it

Page 546

1 is important for you, because these trenches, which were manned by some

2 people, dug by others.

3 So I was simply wondering, why don't you think as if you had three

4 Judges here. You have the deposition, and if you need these kind of

5 references, perhaps it would be better. Perhaps it would be quicker if we

6 use some aid of this kind. This is merely a suggestion. I'm not going

7 any further than that.

8 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] May I, Mr. Fourmy?

9 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Yes, please.

10 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I am really very happy that you are

11 thinking along these lines, that you are raising this topic, because we

12 have two things, the Defence tactics and the OTP work on the -- and the

13 investigation. These are the witnesses for the Prosecution, and I think

14 that the OTP should have had maps prepared.

15 The witness does understand me well. And when our witnesses come,

16 and I'm not going to say when, who, how, and from where, but you can

17 assume they will be from Sovici, and we shall, of course, do our best to

18 have either the models or relief maps or whatever is necessary.

19 That is all that I wanted to say. The Defence is quite happy. I

20 am absolutely happy that the witness understands me.

21 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Well, do as you like, of course. The

22 Defence strategy is the Defence strategy. I am merely an intermediary,

23 almost transparent, between the two parties and the Judges. I am nothing

24 else. But I nevertheless have to deal with certain of the files, and I

25 like to understand what some documents say. I'm here to share with all --

Page 547

1 with both the parties and including the accused, and what my concern is to

2 understand properly what is it, but that was just a thought.

3 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Even with the map, without the

4 explanation, during the main hearing with this witness's deposition, one

5 can't understand anything. It is only when we have the deposition in the

6 file. If you have the witness's deposition and a map and nothing but a

7 map, again you will not understand anything.

8 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you. Ah-ha, we're already five

9 minutes late, so that we shall resume at five past two. I don't want to

10 be accused of cutting short the break. Thank you. The session is

11 adjourned.

12 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.35 p.m.

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Page 548

1 --- On resuming at 2.13 p.m.

2 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Please be seated.

3 Thank you. You may be seated. Well, you will now continue to

4 answer Mr. Krsnik's questions. After that, it will be -- Mr. Seric will

5 ask you some questions. I should also like to ask you to remember to

6 leave some time between question and your answer and the answer and the

7 next question so that we could really understand what goes on.

8 Mr. Krsnik, you have the floor.

9 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Fourmy.

10 Q. Witness, in the trenches that, as you pointed out, started being

11 dug in 1991 and onward, the ratio was 3:1 in terms of the soldiers who

12 were manning it to the advantage of ABiH?

13 A. There was no advantage whatsoever there.

14 Q. In the -- how many soldiers belonging to the ABiH were stationed

15 in the village of Sovici?

16 A. To my mind, there were no soldiers, but as it turned out, they

17 ended up being that. I don't know, about 70, including the elderly.

18 Q. The total number bearing arms was 70 men?

19 A. Not bearing arms, the total number of men. But those with weapons

20 numbered about 20, maybe.

21 Q. Who was your commander?

22 A. Dzemal Ovnovic.

23 Q. What was the population of Sovici? My learned friend from the

24 prosecution did say, but you said it was 70 per cent of the total

25 population.

Page 549

1 A. Yes, it was 70 per cent, and it was about 1.200 total Croats and

2 Muslims.

3 Q. So if I put it to you that it was 800 Muslims, would that be

4 right?

5 A. It was about 800.

6 Q. Out of 800, the total number, 70 men were in the AbiH?

7 A. You see, at that time the ABiH was not quite organised, and also

8 there was not many weapons there.

9 Q. On 17 April 1993, the army of BiH did not exist, was not

10 organised?

11 A. Well, it was.

12 Q. Well, that was exactly my question to you. On 17 April 1993, how

13 many ABiH members were there in Sovici?

14 A. In Sovici itself, as I said, there were about 70.

15 Q. In the trenches around Sovici, at the line of confrontation, and

16 the village, was it altogether 70?

17 A. It was total of 70, and in the trenches that morning there may

18 have been ten or 15 men.

19 Q. You have heard of the Mijat Tomic Battalion?

20 A. I'm not very familiar with it, but I've heard it.

21 Q. You spent all your life in Sovici?

22 A. All my life.

23 Q. Do you know your fellow villagers?

24 A. Excuse me?

25 Q. Do you know your fellow villagers?

Page 550

1 A. I do.

2 Q. And the Mijat Tomic Battalion was composed exclusively of the

3 local villagers from Sovici?

4 A. That I didn't know.

5 Q. If -- in the Mijat Tomic Battalion, or if you want to call it the

6 Sovici HVO, how many members of the HVO were there if you -- if we put a

7 number, total number of Croats there at 400?

8 A. I wouldn't be able to tell you, but whoever had weapons could have

9 joined or could have gone somewhere else. I don't know where they would

10 go, but they could.

11 Q. What does that mean, what you just said, whoever could go would

12 go? Where would they go?

13 A. I don't know where they went. Whoever had the weapon could take

14 it wherever he wanted.

15 Q. Of course if you don't know, we cannot know either, and if you can

16 please refrain from commenting.

17 There was a mosque in Sovici; right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. The mosque looked like any other mosque?

20 A. You mean like any other one?

21 Q. It was built like any other mosque?

22 A. Of course, except it was not completed. The minaret was not fully

23 erected.

24 Q. So the mosque in Sovici did not have a minaret; is that right?

25 A. Right.

Page 551

1 Q. So the -- but would members of other religions be able to

2 recognise it as a mosque?

3 A. Of course they could.

4 Q. Why?

5 A. Well, there's a sign saying that it was a mosque.

6 Q. And the sign was in Arabic?

7 A. Yes.

8 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Excuse me. Witness, could you please

9 either come closer to the microphone or speak up so that you could be

10 understood better. Thank you.

11 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

12 Q. The main characteristic of a mosque, so far as most people are

13 concerned, is the minaret. Yes or no.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. A mosque in that -- that absent, a mosque could only be recognised

16 if it's -- by a sign describing it as such?

17 A. Well, I don't know. To a foreigner.

18 Q. A foreigner, as you just said, a foreigner. If -- in other words,

19 a person who does not know his way around this area, absent the minaret

20 and if he cannot read the sign in Arabic, could not recognise it; right?

21 A. I guess.

22 Q. The trenches were also dug in the village of Sovici?

23 A. I don't know about these trenches. As I said, they were dug while

24 Croats and Muslims were together.

25 Q. Please answer with yes or no.

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Page 553

1 A. Let me tell you the truth.

2 Q. Will you please just answer. I'll ask the question. Please give

3 me an answer.

4 A. They were dug out and then they were filled in again.

5 Q. We're talking about the trenches in the village of Sovici. Did

6 they exist or not?

7 A. I would like you to clarify this question for me, the trenches, as

8 such.

9 Q. The question is perfectly clear. Please answer yes or no.

10 A. I don't know what you mean by "trenches."

11 Q. Will you please stop commenting on my questions. If it's not

12 clear to you, I will further clarify it for you.

13 Trenches, militarily speaking, is a foxhole dug up to where

14 somebody can go defend himself and it has a parapet. That's what I mean

15 by to trench. Were there trenches in Sovici?

16 A. There were no trenches.

17 Q. Were there any snipers' nests?

18 A. There were sniper nests.

19 Q. Were there ten sniper nests?

20 A. There may have been up to 30.

21 Q. Members of the ABiH manned these snipers' nests?

22 A. No.

23 Q. How many snipers' nests were there in the village itself?

24 A. This was around the village. Around 30 snipers' nests.

25 Q. And in the village itself?

Page 554

1 A. No, nothing in the village itself, just around the village.

2 Q. Members of the HVO military police were shot at five days before

3 the attack on Sovici?

4 A. That is not correct.

5 Q. There was not a single line of defence with the bunkers or

6 trenches in the village of Sovici?

7 A. As I said, none in the village of Sovici, around the village.

8 Q. Let's go back to the number of members of the Mijat Tomic

9 Battalion. We were interrupted a little bit. You did not tell me how

10 many members of the HVO were there in Sovici.

11 A. I'm unable to tell you that.

12 Q. More or less?

13 A. The number was higher.

14 Q. Out of a total of 400 Croats, there were more members in the HVO

15 than you, out of 800?

16 A. That wasn't just villagers of Sovici. It was all of the western

17 Herzegovina.

18 Q. You had three checkpoints manned by the ABiH?

19 A. We had none before Jablanica.

20 Q. Who was Dzemal Ovnovic's superior?

21 A. As I said before, Zijad Salihamidzic.

22 Q. And who was his superior?

23 A. Well, that I wouldn't be able to tell you.

24 Q. What was the zone of responsibility of your unit in Sovici, that

25 is, within the ABiH?

Page 555

1 A. As I said, it was within the Mackovica area.

2 Q. Let me remind you there. You said that you were at Pasje Stijene?

3 A. Well, that's the same area.

4 Q. And these were the only two lines that you held?

5 A. These were not two separate lines. That's a single line. That's

6 the same area.

7 Q. Well, let me put it -- the line between those two points, that was

8 the only place where you were? And the logistics centre was in Jablanica?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And was the Jablanica logistics centre in Mostar?

11 A. That I don't know.

12 Q. You were part of the 4th Corps?

13 A. Yes. That later grew into the 4th Corps.

14 Q. When later?

15 A. I think after the attack on the HVO against ABiH.

16 Q. The 4th Corps came -- grew out of the 1st Mostar Brigade?

17 A. That -- I don't know anything about that.

18 Q. In 1992, you were within the zone of responsibility of 4th Corps?

19 A. I don't know that. I was in the camp.

20 Q. You mean 1992?

21 A. Oh, I apologise, but I cannot agree with that because I was not a

22 member of the 4th Corps, so I wouldn't know.

23 Q. Not you personally, but your unit in Sovici.

24 A. Yes, our unit in Sovici.

25 Q. Your unit in Sovici did belong or was a part of the 4th Corps.

Page 556

1 When did you join the ABiH?

2 A. I joined the army, as such, when I came back from the camp.

3 Q. And before that, on the 17th April 1993, what were you a member

4 of?

5 A. I wouldn't be able to tell you. I couldn't because nothing looked

6 very much like an army or defence.

7 Q. Croats were able to freely move about Sovici?

8 A. Yes, still.

9 Q. So who was then in the Jablanica camp in the museum?

10 A. I am not able to know because I was in a camp myself at that time.

11 Q. No, no, no, no. I'm asking you about prior to 17 April 1993.

12 A. I don't know that anybody was there.

13 Q. Do you know or not?

14 A. I don't know.

15 Q. What was your duty or what was the assignment of your unit, or

16 whatever I should call it, at Mackovica prior to 17 April?

17 A. As I said, we maintained a line as if it was against the Chetniks.

18 Q. The first VR -- the closest VRS unit was 50 kilometres away and

19 was at that distance since -- from 1991 on, or I don't know. The front

20 line units of the VRS were 50 kilometres away from Sovici from 1991

21 onwards. They never came closer than 50 kilometres. So my question to

22 you, what were you doing at your line on the 17th of April, 1993?

23 A. That was the order.

24 Q. Whose order?

25 A. As I said, Zijad Salihamidzic's and Stipo Kopilas's orders.

Page 557

1 Q. Stipo Kopilas told you on 17 of April to hold the line on the 17th

2 of April, 1993?

3 A. I've answered that. Please don't bother me any more.

4 Q. Excuse me, you need to answer my questions.

5 A. I don't think that I need to answer your questions.

6 Q. Let me repeat the question. Stipo Kopilas ordered you on the 17th

7 of April to hold the line on the -- on Mackovica?

8 A. No, no, not on the 17th. He shot at us on that date.

9 Q. A moment ago you said he ordered you.

10 A. He ordered us before that.

11 Q. So what is true, what you just told us now or what you told us

12 before?

13 A. What I told you now.

14 Q. And you lied before?

15 A. I never lied.

16 Q. You told us that Mr. Salihamidzic ordered you and then you said

17 about Stipo Kopilas that he ordered you, and I asked you expressly about

18 the 17th of April that the order came.

19 A. No. I still say that it was -- the order came from him.

20 Q. Let me repeat the question. The order to go to the Mackovica line

21 was issued by Stipo Kopilas, isn't it?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And where was Zulfikar Alispago at that time? I'll repeat it for

24 the record.

25 A. I never knew about him.

Page 558

1 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Mr. Krsnik, please, could you repeat

2 the name of the person that you just mentioned? I didn't quite get it.

3 Thank you.

4 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you. I said I'd do it slowly

5 for the record. I just waited for the witness's answer. Zufikar,

6 Z-u-f-i-k-a-r, A-r-l-i-s-b-a-g-o, nicknamed Zuka.

7 Q. With your commander, and I don't mean Mr. Kopilas, you used a

8 Motorola to communicate with the commander?

9 A. Yes, we had two Motorolas.

10 Q. What was your unit called?

11 A. I've told you; TO. That's what it was called until the shooting

12 began.

13 Q. Witness, TO ceased to exist in 1992, according to the agreement

14 concluded in Mostar, and it was concluded by the SDA president in Mostar

15 and the Presidency of the HVO and signed by the Presidents Alija

16 Izetbegovic and Mate Boban.

17 A. I know, and I remember well that we still had the TO patches at

18 that time.

19 Q. Let's go back to the line for a while. It is for the record that

20 I wish to clarify this matter. On the 17th of April, 1993, you went to

21 the line to protect it against Chetniks, as you say.

22 A. Correct.

23 Q. Is it so or isn't it so?

24 A. It is.

25 Q. In your statement, you said that heavy artillery was used, if I

Page 559

1 understood you well, on the 17th of April.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. How many houses were hit?

4 A. A tank hit two houses of brothers Kovac.

5 Q. And where was the tank?

6 A. The tank was above the village called Obruc.

7 Q. And you saw it?

8 A. Yes, I did.

9 Q. Where were you standing when you watched that tank?

10 A. (redacted)

11 Q. Below what, Obruc?

12 A. Well, below, below what we're talking about.

13 Q. I don't know.

14 A. Well, then, you accept what I'm saying and --

15 Q. Will you please refrain from these comments. I'm asking you:

16 What is this Obruc? Is it a name or what? What is this Obruc?

17 A. It is just Obruc.

18 Q. No, but where is it?

19 A. Well, where is it?

20 Q. Well, where is it? Let me see. From Srednja Mahala.

21 A. Srednja Mahala is to the left, towards Risovac.

22 Q. Uh-huh. Left towards Risovac. So what is the difference in

23 altitude between Srednja Mahala and that Obruc or circle on Risovac?

24 A. Well, I wouldn't really know.

25 Q. The altitude difference is 1.000 metres. Is it or isn't it?

Page 560

1 A. Well, I'd say 1.500.

2 Q. The difference in altitude is 1.000 metres.

3 A. One thousand metres?

4 Q. Yes. And where were you standing in relation to Srednja Mahala?

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 Q. I will tell you. It was 1.000 metres, and what you said was

13 1.500. Yes or no.

14 A. When, when you're talking about altitudes, I really can't say

15 anything.

16 Q. Yes. We were talking about houses. How many houses were hit on

17 the 17th of April?

18 A. Two houses.

19 Q. And how many houses are there in Sovici?

20 A. That I wouldn't know, know exactly.

21 Q. I'm asking you nicely. It's hardly any cross-examination, and I'm

22 not trying to suggest anything to you even if cross-examination things may

23 be put to you, but there are 200 houses in Sovici. Yes or no.

24 A. You mean Bosniak only or altogether?

25 Q. Altogether. I'm not talking about a difference.

Page 561

1 A. No, there are more.

2 Q. You say that there are more houses in Sovici, more than 200?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And two were hit?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And fire was opened from all weapons, and what did you say?

7 A. Well, all that I said, from howitzers and tanks and mortars.

8 Q. Uh-huh. You said you knew there would be an attack.

9 A. No. How could I? If I had known, I wouldn't have been there.

10 Q. If you excuse me just a moment. In your statement of the 27th of

11 November, 2000, you said it was Mijo Cvitkovic, called Doctor, who told

12 you that, and he knew that because his children were in the HVO.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Is that correct?

15 A. Correct.

16 Q. Mijo Cvitkovic told you that?

17 A. Yes. Mijo Cvitkovic told me. Mijo Cvitkovic said it would

18 happen, but nobody could --

19 Q. Ah-ha. So he told you it could be. And his two children were in

20 the HVO?

21 A. No, not children but two guys.

22 Q. Yes. But I mean, his children were in the HVO, weren't they?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Mijo Cvitkovic betrayed his children?

25 A. That's what he said.

Page 562

1 Q. Because he had a coup. Yes or no?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. In Sovici, from 1991 onwards, there were also MOS forces. To

4 explain for the record, Muslim defence forces.

5 A. No.

6 Q. Vehicles painted green with inscriptions on the door, Muslim

7 defence forces, those vehicles went through Sovici all the time?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Who was the commander of the 4th Corps?

10 A. Well, I really know -- I wouldn't know.

11 Q. And who provided the logistic support to Jablanica?

12 A. I wouldn't be able to say that either.

13 Q. And did your villages obtain, procure their weapons in Germany?

14 A. When you say co-villagers, you mean Croats? You mean Croats?

15 Q. Are only Croats your -- lived in your village? Croats. Don't you

16 have Muslims in your village?

17 A. I don't know what it means.

18 Q. I mean neighbours.

19 A. Ah, neighbours. Yes.

20 Q. Did your neighbours then in Sovici, did they purchase weapons in

21 Germany?

22 A. No. I don't remember that.

23 Q. And what kind of weapon did you have at Mackovica?

24 A. Well, I had, I had been issued with a machine -- with a sort of

25 machine-gun.

Page 563

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Page 564

1 Q. What does it mean, "a sort of machine-gun"? A machine-gun is a

2 machine-gun is a machine-gun.

3 A. Well, I'm saying a machine-gun, but it was quite obsolete.

4 Q. Does it have its mark, its number, that sort of machine-gun?

5 A. Well, it was an old type of weapon. What do I know? It was used

6 in JNA or wherever.

7 Q. Well, but did it fire?

8 A. No.

9 Q. It couldn't fire at all?

10 A. Well, it could fire, but it didn't fire.

11 Q. That is, you did not fire it?

12 A. I didn't.

13 Q. And what about your comrades at arms?

14 A. I told you that my comrades at arms who happened to be on the

15 positions, yes, they did fire.

16 Q. Who against?

17 A. Well, it's quite clear who.

18 Q. Against who?

19 A. Well, I'm telling you.

20 Q. Well, who did they fire at?

21 A. They fired at the HVO.

22 Q. Had the conflict ended differently, would you have captured

23 Croats?

24 A. Well, I never thought that this --

25 Q. I am asking you, had the conflict ended differently --

Page 565

1 A. I can't do this any more. I never --

2 Q. Will you please be so kind as to answer my question.

3 A. I did.

4 Q. You didn't.

5 A. I said that I would never have killed -- captured anyone, nor

6 would I want to do that.

7 Q. Had the conflict ended differently, would the members of the army

8 of BiH have captured members of the HVO army?

9 A. I cannot say that.

10 Q. And had you received an order from the superiors in the BiH army

11 -- I'm sorry, from the army of BiH, would you have captured HVO members

12 or would you have refused to obey the order?

13 A. I think I would have refused.

14 Q. You personally?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And what about other members?

17 A. Yeah, I think they would have refused, too.

18 Q. And yet you fire at one another?

19 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Mr. Krsnik, excuse me. Excuse me

20 once again. I am really afraid that, at least for me, this is definitely

21 too fast. And secondly, if I may allow myself these comments, I'm

22 afraid -- we hear the witness. We do not know if the witness is

23 testifying about things that were seen, heard, happened, stated,

24 established, or I don't know.

25 It is a bit difficult to place one's self into a hypothetical

Page 566

1 situation in the place of a third party. So if you are asking the witness

2 questions, then we have to see whether this is something that he saw,

3 heard, or did, and then I believe the witness will answer more easily, if

4 you see that it is difficult.

5 If you ask him if he thinks that somebody else might have done or

6 not done something, I'm not really sure that it is easy for him to answer

7 such questions, and that is why your cross-examination lasts so long. I

8 think you have been cross-examining the witness for 45 minutes, and this

9 morning, too, and you know what are the rules regarding duration of the

10 examination-in-chief and cross-examination, so will you please mind these

11 rules. Thank you.

12 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Mr. Fourmy, I may take another 45

13 minutes to cross-examine because I've prepared well for this witness, even

14 though I shouldn't perhaps say that. Perhaps it wouldn't be a good

15 strategy for him to hear that. But all his information in the statement

16 is hearsay, and I have to check that in my cross-examination.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I stand by everything that I stated,

18 that I said in that statement.

19 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I think that is logical.

20 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] But I am saying, Mr. Krsnik, as

21 regards the time, is that with due flexibility, and after all, I'm not the

22 judge, but generally speaking, if the Prosecutor uses time A, then the

23 counsel has the same time at his disposal. And this, and this does not

24 also cover the re-examination. Of course, it is up to you to use your

25 time as you like. It is up to you to discuss with Mr. Seric how you will

Page 567

1 conduct your cross-examination. I'm only slightly worried about the total

2 time.

3 As you know, we have 18 witnesses envisaged for this fortnight.

4 The Prosecutor is planning to go rather quickly, of course, depending on

5 things; but there must be some general balance which will exist and which

6 will be struck between the two parties, of course, with all the necessary

7 flexibility. One of the parties needs the -- needs to benefit from the

8 experience of a witness and can have some more time.

9 But that is what I have to tell you, Mr. Krsnik. Thank you.

10 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Mr. Fourmy, I must ask you to

11 understand the Defence. There is a very big range of events spanning a

12 long time. The witness, who made a number of statements before he

13 appeared in court today, and in the view of the Defence, 90 per cent is

14 hearsay. The basic principle of -- my principle in the cross-examination

15 is to verify that, and I'm sorry if it will last longer than the time

16 envisaged, but I'm simply doing my job.

17 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Yes, I understand you, Mr. Krsnik,

18 but there are two accused in this case, and in extending your -- your

19 cross-examination depends on the length of the chief examination rather

20 than on the statements of the witness present here, and I have not really

21 understood that the Prosecutor tendered these documents as exhibits, these

22 preliminary statements as exhibits. Yes, I understand that you prepared

23 your cross-examination, but there is no exhibit, so these documents have

24 not been tendered or filed.

25 And do not forget, please, once again, that this record will be

Page 568

1 before the Judges, will appear before the Judges, and unless these

2 preliminary statements are tendered and are included in the file, which is

3 not the case at present, then they -- then you have to base your

4 cross-examination on what is being said here.

5 Do you understand what I'm saying? Once again, once again, it has

6 nothing do with the Defence strategy. That is not the idea.

7 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Well, I think you are really getting

8 what my strategy is because you anticipate what I was going to say; that

9 is, we intend to tender all these three statements in evidence, both the

10 counsel for Mr. Naletilic and for Mr. Martinovic, once we finish with this

11 witness. But we have not yet agreed how we shall organise it, so we

12 thought when the witness finishes, then of course, because we have

13 prepared to tender all three statements to have them part of the record.

14 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] I'm afraid, unfortunately, we should

15 really make use of the witnesses present here. This is a matter which

16 will have to be dealt with later. I believe that will be the best

17 solution now. We had envisaged a break at quarter to four, not later than

18 that. Thank you.

19 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] May I continue, Mr. Fourmy?

20 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Yes, please.

21 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22 Q. Witness, you said that you knew Robi?

23 A. I did.

24 Q. How do you know him? When did you meet him?

25 A. I met him -- well, then at Heliodrom when I was beaten.

Page 569

1 Q. You said that you knew him from before.

2 A. From before, from the attack on the village of Sovici where Robi

3 was.

4 Q. I see. And the Convicts Battalion had its military police?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Do you mean yes when you say "yeah"?

7 A. Yes, of course I do.

8 Q. You said that you went to Ljubuski by buses, taking the salvation

9 road, didn't you?

10 A. Salvation road? Well, yes, via Risovac.

11 Q. And who was saved on this road and who built it?

12 A. It -- well, the road as a road existed before, but it was

13 completed and widened --

14 Q. Who built the road?

15 A. The road was built by Sipad, I don't know when, and then it was

16 added to by the HVO.

17 Q. The road built by Sipad could not be used -- could not be

18 travelled by buses.

19 A. That is what to -- that is why I'm saying that it was added to,

20 that is, completed by HVO.

21 Q. The HVO built the salvation road so that it could be travelled.

22 A. Precisely.

23 Q. That road was, by and large, used to save Bosniaks and Muslims?

24 A. Not only Bosniaks, Croats used it. Serbs, I guess, too.

25 Q. And where would these Serbs be saving their lives?

Page 570

1 A. Well, those who wouldn't stay there.

2 Q. Were there?

3 A. There in their homeland.

4 Q. What homeland?

5 A. What, what homeland? The homeland where they lived up until the

6 conflict.

7 Q. From 1993 onwards to this day, you discussed the events with

8 neighbours, friends, acquaintances?

9 A. [No translation]

10 Q. [No translation] What had happened to you?

11 THE INTERPRETER: I'm sorry.

12 Q. You discussed --

13 THE INTERPRETER: I'm sorry.

14 Q. From especially April, from April 1994, you discussed the events,

15 people, with your friends, neighbours, about what had happened to you?

16 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Mr. Krsnik, could you ask your

17 question again so that we could hear the answer. There was a slight

18 technical problem.

19 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Very simple. I shall make my

20 question very simple.

21 Q. As of the 17th, 18th April 1993 to this day, about events that

22 took place. Do you understand me?

23 A. Events that happened?

24 Q. Yes, events that happened in 1993. Did you discuss them with

25 friends, neighbours, acquaintances?

Page 571

1 A. I don't know whom you mean.

2 Q. Well, did you talk about this? You didn't? From 1993 to this

3 day, you never discussed with people around you?

4 A. Those who were members of the HVO you mean?

5 Q. Are you doing this deliberately or --

6 A. No, not deliberately.

7 Q. Did you talk with people, any people, Bosniaks, Serbs, Croats,

8 those around you in time and space, wherever you were, did you talk?

9 A. No. No. I didn't have the opportunity to talk yet.

10 Q. Great. You said that Sovici had no heavy weapons, only rifles.

11 What is a submachine-gun?

12 A. I don't know what that is.

13 Q. Excuse me. Please just answer my question. No comments, please.

14 A. I don't know what you mean.

15 Q. The submachine-gun is a heavy weapon.

16 A. Not to me.

17 Q. Thank you.

18 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Very well. Mr. Fourmy, I am going to

19 conform to your directions and the time allotted. I only have a few

20 questions about the discrepancies that the witness has made in his three

21 statements. And this is the fourth statement, actually, that he's

22 giving.

23 Q. Can you please explain to me, when did you speak the truth, in the

24 first statement when you said -- and the first statement is the one when

25 you gave to AID. Did AID find you or the other way around?

Page 572

1 A. I don't know what AID is.

2 Q. That's security service to whom you gave your first statement.

3 A. To whom I gave my first statement. Whatever I said there, I still

4 stand by it.

5 Q. Did these people find you or you found them?

6 A. They found me.

7 Q. They found you?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. You said nothing about your knowledge about the attack, that is,

10 about the conflict several months before it took place. In the second

11 statement, you said that you did not know anything. But which one is

12 true?

13 A. As I said, Mijo Cvitkovic.

14 Q. Excuse me. You just have two statements, and you have to --

15 A. Let me tell you --

16 Q. Excuse me. Just tell me, is it true that in the first statement

17 you said that you did not have knowledge that there will be a conflict?

18 Is that correct? Yes or no.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. In the second statement, you said that you knew that there would

21 be a conflict. Yes?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Again, yes or no.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. The first statement is true? Yes or no.

Page 573

1 A. Whatever I said is truthful, and it's truth and the whole truth.

2 Q. It cannot be true, both, because they are discrepancy.

3 A. It's not discrepant, it's just how people understand it.

4 Q. The truth can only be understood one way. You knew or you didn't

5 know, which is a big difference.

6 A. As I said, I learned it from Mijo Cvitkovic.

7 Q. So when you gave the first statement, you were not telling the

8 truth.

9 A. I believe that I did.

10 Q. The truth is what you said now, that you learned it from

11 Cvitkovic?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. The statement that you gave to the AID was not truthful. Yes or

14 no.

15 A. I believe that it was.

16 Q. Please answer yes or no.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. The first statement you gave to the OTP - and the OTP is the

19 abbreviation for the Office of the Prosecutor - you said that you gave --

20 turned in the weapons in Stipe Mijic's house. Yes or no.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. In the second statement, you said that you turned it in in Mato

23 Mijic's house.

24 A. I would have to clarify something.

25 Q. Please, just yes or no.

Page 574

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Page 575

1 A. As I said, I have to clarify this.

2 Q. No. My question is very specific. Please, yes or no.

3 A. Yes.

4 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Mr. Krsnik, excuse me. I am

5 definitely a man who likes fast questions and short answers, but if you

6 look for the past two stages, you -- we do not know whether we are getting

7 yes as a yes or yes as a no.

8 If you don't understand me, then I don't. Perhaps you haven't --

9 you think that you are requesting the witness to answer precisely

10 questions that you are asking. However, when there is a difference

11 between the witness's statements, you cannot ask the witness to explain

12 the difference with yes or no. Either there is a difference and then you

13 have to have the witness answer it, or then you don't, but then you

14 deprive him of the answer to -- you don't give him the opportunity to

15 answer.

16 Either you do not want to show us the difference -- either there

17 is a difference and then ask the witness why there is a difference, and

18 then the witness will answer it. Otherwise, I do not think we can

19 function.

20 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Mr. Fourmy, I was very specific in my

21 language, and it was also clearly answered too. We have a videotape. We

22 will get a full transcript. I think we'll be able to clarify matters, but

23 I think that I got the right answers to the way I asked my questions. But

24 we can check the tape and compare it to the transcript as it comes out.

25 Of course, that is in case we come out to not be fully satisfied with what

Page 576

1 we heard.

2 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Mr. Krsnik, once again, the

3 deposition procedure is intended to achieve certain things, to expedite

4 the procedures, to facilitate the job of the -- to help the Judges, to

5 give to -- to also admit certain documents which are otherwise presented

6 during the normal hearing.

7 But you are talking -- well, I have now lost it from my monitor,

8 but you are talking about his statements. In one statement, the witness

9 spoke about the house of Mr. A, and you say that the witness, in the

10 second statement, spoke about the house of another person. You asked the

11 witness to explain the difference, but you tell him to answer with yes or

12 no. I do not know how that is possible.

13 Either you ask a question or you allow the witness to answer,

14 because the Judges will not be able to understand what is it that you're

15 asking. And if I can -- if I read you well, you are trying to check the

16 credibility of the witness. So it is very important for the Judges. But

17 if you think that the Judges are going to watch one, two, three cameras,

18 all the videos plus all the transcripts, then it simply can't be done, and

19 that is not the objective of what we are trying to do here.

20 I am like you. I want to know which is the best way to do it, but

21 if you leave some time for the answer when you've asked the questions and

22 that answer doesn't satisfy you, ask another question, but not everything

23 can be answered with yes or no. If you say, "Yes or no," the witness will

24 say, "Yes," and we do not know whether the witness means yes confirming or

25 no, again confirming.

Page 577

1 I do not know if you understand. We want to do this

2 systematically, because it is more efficient for you and also for the

3 Prosecutor and will be, therefore, easier for the Judges. Yes, please.

4 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Mr. Fourmy, again I got interrupted

5 here, but as I said, in the Croatian language, which is the language that

6 I use for my questions, it was very succinctly put questions. I don't

7 know how it was entered in the transcript. I cannot follow both the

8 transcript and follow through with my cross-examination. I have

9 assistants who are monitoring it.

10 We're not -- we can always go back, and we will look at it. I

11 will go through the transcript. I will check it. I'll see whether in the

12 interpretation we have certain misunderstandings, but all of us who use

13 the Croatian language were very clear on the -- on the questions.

14 The question was very clear. For instance, "Did you turn in the

15 weapons in such-and-such a house? Yes or no." So it's very clear. "This

16 house or that house? Did you turn it in here or there?" It can't be much

17 clearer than that.

18 With your permission, I will go on and I will finish quickly. I

19 need to leave some time for my learned friend Seric.

20 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] You have seven minutes before the

21 break, Mr. Krsnik.

22 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Yes. I think I'll finish by that

23 time.

24 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] [No translation]

25 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Fourmy.

Page 578

1 Q. Today you said that Mr. Ivan Rogic held a speech in front of the

2 school and then ordered you in buses.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. In the statement you gave to the OTP in 2000, you said that a

5 person unknown to you held a political speech, a person you did not know,

6 and that he ordered you to go in the bus to Ljubuski. I think it will be

7 clear. Did you say that or no? Yes or no.

8 A. Yes, I did say that in the presence of - you just mentioned him -

9 Ivan Rogic.

10 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I don't know whether the

11 interpretation is complete. My apologies.

12 You see, Mr. Fourmy, I have to answer -- I have to ask a fresh

13 question based on this answer, and I don't think that I could have been

14 much clearer than this.

15 Q. Let me repeat. In your statement given in 2000 to the OTP, you

16 said that an unknown person gave a speech, not Ivan Rogic, and this

17 unknown person told you to enter the bus for Ljubuski. Did you say that

18 or not?

19 A. I believe I did.

20 Q. So which is true?

21 A. The truth is that Ivan Rogic was the one who read the decision and

22 ordered us on buses.

23 Q. So in 2000, you were not saying the truth?

24 A. I always spoke the truth, and I say again.

25 Q. Sir, if you said that an unknown person, person unknown to you,

Page 579

1 gave the speech or held the speech, then you were not answering truthfully

2 in your statement to the OTP in 2000. This is not a kindergarten.

3 A. This is not a kindergarten, but if I said that the ABiH --

4 Q. You know what, I don't know what your truth may be.

5 A. Well, you mean that it would be if I said that the army was the

6 one who went up there and burned down everything?

7 Q. That is your comment. Please keep it to yourself.

8 You know that you gave a solemn declaration here, that you have to

9 speak the truth, and you know that perjury is punishable.

10 A. I stand by everything that I said.

11 Q. I will ask you again. I'll be very clear. Your statement in 2000

12 to the OTP was not truthful.

13 A. I stand by everything that I have said there.

14 Q. And in your third statement, you said that it was Tuta who gave

15 the speech and told you to go in the buses?

16 A. No.

17 MR. SCOTT: Mr. Fourmy.

18 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

19 Q. You did not say that?

20 A. No.

21 MR. SCOTT: I'm going to object to this procedure at this point.

22 I've tried to be very patient about this. At least where I practice, if a

23 witness is cross-examined on a statement, the statement should be put in

24 front of the witness. They should be shown the alleged inconsistent

25 statement.

Page 580

1 Mr. Krsnik is going back and forth between three different

2 statements. I'm trying to follow him myself. I cannot find many of these

3 alleged inconsistencies. The one just now, there's nothing in the

4 statement about it being Mr. Tuta that made that speech in witness's

5 statement.

6 If he's going to proceed in this fashion, he should take and put

7 the statement in front of the witness, take the witness to a particular

8 statement, have the witness have a chance to look at a statement and

9 respond to it.

10 But you're absolutely right, Mr. Fourmy, the way this is being

11 done, the record is a complete mess, and there are many things being said

12 that are not fair based on these statements. I object.

13 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Mr. Krsnik.

14 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Of course, my learned friend, you

15 know and I know that this witness gave three statements. I can put it in

16 front of him at any time or not, if he remembers them. All these

17 statements will be tendered in the record, so this is why I believe that

18 your objection is missing the mark.

19 MR. SCOTT: Mr. Fourmy, I'm not going to belabour that this

20 afternoon, but I would ask you to invite Mr. Krsnik to show you where in

21 these three statements this witness said it was Tuta who made the speech,

22 and if it's correct, then I'll stand corrected.

23 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Mr. Krsnik, will you please answer.

24 And it seems to me that Mr. Seric also wanted to say something.

25 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] This question actually concluded my

Page 581

1 cross-examination as far as I'm concerned, but we will tender these three

2 statements so we can definitely find the place in the statements that we

3 referred to.

4 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Mr. Krsnik, when Mr. Seric takes the

5 floor, or perhaps during the break, I do not think that we can function on

6 the principle that the statements which witnesses made before the hearing

7 will be admitted because that is the decision that is taken by Judges, and

8 as I said a moment ago, the practice is not that the preliminary statement

9 of witnesses are admitted a priori.

10 But will you please try to find during the break, if you can

11 during the break, find the exact place where this witness's answer as you

12 quoted it is, that is, that it was Mr. Tuta who said those things. And

13 while you are looking for this and during the break, Mr. Seric wanted to

14 say something, I believe, to clarify this discussion.

15 Yes, Mr. Seric.

16 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Very well.

17 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Regardless of the fact that we are

18 about to break, but I thank you because I have two major procedural

19 questions that are -- that arise from this.

20 I, for one, I absolutely object to the method in which we started

21 working this morning. And I support this type of cross-examination by

22 Mr. Krsnik, and let me explain what I mean. The Prosecution thought that

23 they would introduce, based on the amended Rules which we just are using

24 for the first time, short statements which are just bare assertions of the

25 witness. I, by the way, I feel sorry for him, but whatever. They thought

Page 582

1 that they would just enter these statements without any cross-examination,

2 so -- thinking that we would not challenge the credibility, because there

3 is so many vague points and all kinds of incriminations, and we are

4 entitled not to trust his statements.

5 Unfortunately, this witness is not going to be seen by the Trial

6 Chamber. We wanted to be in a situation that we have to -- we needed to

7 have addressed this witness in this particular way, and I'm going to

8 follow suit on this and do it in the same manner that Mr. Krsnik did. I'm

9 not sure that we'll finish by five.

10 We wanted to open up certain issues, certain areas that the

11 witness just may have addressed in a single sentence, and that was

12 supposed to have been sort of set in stone. But the witness -- the

13 Defence of the first accused has opened up some issues that may have --

14 may prompt the Prosecution to approach the witness during the break and

15 discuss matters with him.

16 So I think that we should take this very much like the regular

17 court procedure, so I invite you, Mr. Fourmy, that the standing order that

18 the Trial Chamber has as a standard procedure in order to prevent such

19 contacts between the Prosecution and the witness.

20 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Do you wish to comment on this latest

21 opinion, please?

22 MR. SCOTT: Very briefly, Your Honour, in light of the clock.

23 Let me be very clear: The Prosecution is not doing anything to

24 limit the cross-examination -- the proper cross-examination of this

25 witness or any witness, and we have not objected until late in the day

Page 583

1 today. We've sat here and let the cross-examination go on for a long

2 time. It's not correct -- I'm afraid learned counsel is wrong; it's not

3 correct to suggest that we had any idea that somehow this witness would

4 not be put to cross-examination. Of course he will. Of course every

5 witness will, but it should be done properly.

6 Secondly, to be very brief, we have no objection to such an

7 order. In fact, that is our standard practice not to talk to the witness

8 once they have begun to testify, and in fact, I had already mentioned to

9 Witness A that once he began to testify, none of the Prosecution team

10 would speak to him until his testimony was fully completed. So we have no

11 intention of talking to the witness once he's begun testifying. Thank

12 you.

13 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you. Does this answer satisfy

14 the Defence, Mr. Seric, on this particular matter? I see nodding of the

15 head. What does that mean?

16 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Yes, it is. To confirm, I have

17 nothing but respect for my learned friends across the room, but, you know,

18 the point of cross-examination, and our learned friends who come from that

19 tradition should know this, it was -- our cross was interrupted so it

20 didn't help make its full -- had its full impact, but I'll refrain. I

21 don't want to make any further comments in front of the witness.

22 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. Krsnik. You were also

23 asked a question about the Prosecution which follows -- which came after a

24 question that you asked the witness, but perhaps we shall now make a break

25 of 20 minutes, and then after the break you can finish your

Page 584

1 cross-examination of Witness A, and then it will be Mr. Seric's turn.

2 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] No, I've finished, Mr. Fourmy. I

3 am -- I was absolutely prepared for this cross-examination, and I'm

4 finished. I can, I can show to anyone what I was just talking about,

5 because these statements are going into the record, at least, I hope they

6 will be accepted. We have to do it because of these discrepancies.

7 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Yes. That is why I'm proposing to

8 make a break now so that we can come back to that afterwards. Thank you,

9 Mr. Krsnik.

10 Thank you for your patience, but Witness, we shall now make a

11 20-minute break, perhaps 17 minutes, which means that we shall be back

12 here at quarter to four, at a quarter to four, 15 to four. Adjourned

13 until quarter to four.

14 Usher, will you please help the witness to leave the courtroom.

15 --- Recess taken at 3.26 p.m.

16 --- On resuming at 3.45 p.m.

17 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] This session is resumed. Please be

18 seated.

19 Mr. Krsnik, I do not know whether the break was long enough to

20 enable you to identify the passages in one or two statements of the

21 witness that you wanted to show him. I do not think we shall be dealing

22 with this question again, because this matter needs to be dealt with by

23 the parties. However, we do not know whether you have this document.

24 Perhaps this document could be shown the witness, or at least its

25 pertinent part, so that you can finish your cross-examination and so that

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Page 586

1 Mr. Seric can begin his cross-examination if there is enough time. Then

2 perhaps there will be time for the Prosecutor to re-examine the witness,

3 and if so, hopefully, the witness will be recessed tonight. If not, then

4 we shall need his presence tomorrow.

5 So, Mr. Krsnik, do you want to use the statement, and if so, do

6 you have a copy to show the witness so that he could see those different

7 statements? Thank you.

8 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Yes. I have it in front of me. This

9 is a statement made to the OTP on the 3rd of May, 1997, and only that

10 part, I shall read it, if I may. I shall show it to the witness.

11 THE INTERPRETER: Could it then be placed on the ELMO, please, for

12 the interpreters.

13 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] And secondly, whether -- who

14 delivered this speech, I don't know, but the gist of my question were

15 buses. The buses were practically what I was asking him about. May I

16 read it?

17 THE INTERPRETER: Could we have it on the ELMO, please, for the

18 interpreters.

19 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Do you have a copy in the language of

20 the witness so that the witness could see the context in which he made

21 this statement, whereas you may read part of the -- the relevant part of

22 the statement.

23 THE INTERPRETER: Could it be please placed on the ELMO or

24 otherwise shown the interpreters.

25 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Just a moment. I wanted to tender

Page 587

1 these copies into evidence. Now, I -- to make things easier for the

2 witness, I'll mark the passage that I mean.

3 THE INTERPRETER: Could the text please be placed on the ELMO for

4 the interpreters.

5 Microphone for Mr. Fourmy, please. Microphone for Mr. Fourmy,

6 please.

7 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] So sorry. Witness, can you read this

8 text which is mentioned by the Defence, the text which is marked here?

9 Mr. Krsnik.

10 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] May I? May I read it?

11 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Yes. Please go on.

12 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

13 Q. I will read only the last two. "I saw Tuta in front of the school

14 building."

15 A. Yes. No. Excuse me.

16 Q. "I saw Tuta in front of the school building on the 18th of April,

17 1993. I saw him come out of a car, and I think that he then ordered to

18 take us to the bus."

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Did you say that?

21 A. I did.

22 Q. Today you said that the order to board the buses was issued by

23 Ivan Rogic, and that is where we stopped.

24 A. Well, then I have to clarify.

25 Q. No. Don't clarify for me. You said today --

Page 588

1 MR. SCOTT: I object, Mr. Fourmy. If we're going to read the

2 statement, read the next sentence. Mr. Krsnik is taking it completely out

3 of context. Allow -- I ask that the witness be allowed to read the

4 immediate following sentence where Mr. Krsnik stopped.

5 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Krsnik. Please -- could you

6 please remind us what statement are you talking about. Perhaps the

7 witness should be allowed to read the whole passage, because even though I

8 can't read the B/C/S, I can see that there are some other names, and I see

9 that Tuta is the name which figures as the last word here, but I do not

10 know what it is.

11 If the witness admits that he said that in answer to a question,

12 perhaps he should explain why is it different from his other statements,

13 if it is; and then, because we are representing everybody here, and you

14 have to allow the witness to explain the difference, and then if you have

15 questions to ask on the basis of his answer, then you can do it.

16 First, what statement is it; secondly, allow him to read the whole

17 passage; thirdly, allow the witness to explain possible differences,

18 possible, as I say, differences with discrepancies with other statements.

19 There you are.

20 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Mr. Fourmy, I wanted to get an answer

21 to just one question. I showed the witness which statement it is and when

22 he made it, and all I wanted to get to was the answer to this question,

23 whether he did say that or whether he didn't say that. Nothing else. And

24 that was my last question. And I shall repeat this question, and I will

25 finish.

Page 589

1 Q. Did you make this statement to the OTP on the 5th -- on the 3rd of

2 May, 1997?

3 A. What does it mean, such a statement?

4 Q. Did you state this?

5 A. I said that he was there.

6 Q. Thank you.

7 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] That is all.

8 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Excuse me, Mr. Krsnik. I'm not a

9 specialist, but it's not the same as the question that you asked. So,

10 sorry, I am completely lost now. One thing is when the witness says that

11 Mr. Tuta was there; and another thing is whether he said something,

12 whether he said this; and the third, whether he issued orders to board the

13 bus.

14 I do not really know what is the question that you asked the

15 witness, and I really do not know what the witness is answering to, and

16 excuse me, but that is important for your cross-examination. You must

17 really specify in the presence of the witness today the inconsistencies or

18 the absence of inconsistencies between the witness's statements to the OTP

19 or the Security Service today before us, and if there are no

20 inconsistencies, then that's all.

21 And the conclusion that you are -- that you draw today, there is

22 no need to draw any conclusion from it today because the case has not even

23 started yet. This is a deposition before a Presiding Officer, that is,

24 myself. So you will have plenty of time to advance your argument. The

25 witness already said, "Yes, I did say this to the Prosecutor." This means

Page 590

1 this or that, and that is it. And then you can respond with your

2 argument.

3 But from this, I'm sorry, but I didn't understand anything with

4 regard to your questions, so that perhaps you really wanted to find out

5 what is the answer of the witness to your question. But you tell us, oh,

6 because your question has somewhat -- has been somewhat modified.

7 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Mr. Fourmy, with due respect, when I

8 began to point out the inconsistencies, I pointed to all the

9 inconsistencies to the witness and I don't know what is unclear about

10 that.

11 In the first statement, I said that it is not mentioned -- he is

12 not mentioned at all. In the third statement, he said that it was

13 Mr. Ivan Rogic, if you're following me. Today he said Ivan Rogic. And

14 then in the first statement to the OTP, that the order to board the buses

15 was given by Tuta. I now ask him if he said that, and he said yes, so

16 that is enough for me. Everything is clear.

17 And I do not see why we are wasting all this time when I am

18 following the thread of my examination. I merely pointed out the

19 inconsistencies between the statements which are very clear, and that is

20 why I want to conclude because I got the answer that I wanted. Thank you.

21 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Mr. Krsnik, as you like. The

22 transcript will show the same, and the corresponding line will show that

23 the witness is different, that is, the witness answered -- said in answer

24 to a question that Mr. Tuta was present.

25 Mr. Seric, you have the floor now and you may start your

Page 591

1 cross-examination. Thank you.

2 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Fourmy.

3 Cross-examined by Mr. Seric:

4 Q. [Interpretation] Witness A, I am Branko Seric, counsel for Vinko

5 Martinovic, nicknamed Stela.

6 In your statement, you said that from Ljubuski you were brought to

7 Heliodrom. Can you tell us, when was that exactly?

8 A. No, I can't.

9 Q. You said that it was two or three months after the attack on

10 Sovici. The attack took place in April, so could you please do some

11 calculation and tell us when could it have been two or three months later

12 on?

13 A. I really can't.

14 Q. Well, add months to April. If you add to April two months, which

15 month will it be then?

16 A. I'm not here to add or subtract anything but to say something.

17 Q. But were you brought to Heliodrom after all -- at all?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And if you said that you were brought to Heliodrom two or three

20 months after April, can you tell us whether it could be June or July?

21 A. Well, July.

22 Q. Well, you see, we've got that. We've got it. So it was July?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. We can conclude that?

25 A. Yes.

Page 592

1 Q. You also said that, from the Heliodrom, you were taken for forced

2 labour?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Where was it that you were taken for forced labour?

5 A. We were taken to parts of Mostar. I wouldn't be able to say

6 specifically where.

7 Q. And who took you there?

8 A. Well, soldiers, the HVO men.

9 Q. Different ones?

10 A. Different ones.

11 Q. Two different places in Mostar?

12 A. Yes, and two different places.

13 Q. So where did you work in Mostar?

14 A. Well, there is no place that I didn't work at. Wherever there

15 were front lines and trenches, that is where I worked.

16 Q. And can you specify the front lines and trenches?

17 A. As I have already said, I wouldn't be able to be more specific

18 because I was brought from that part and I didn't really know it at all.

19 Q. Does Bulevar ring a bell?

20 A. Yes, it does.

21 Q. What kind of a bell?

22 A. Well, I was there, among other places.

23 Q. Can you be more specific again? On which part of the Bulevar?

24 Where on the Bulevar?

25 A. Well, I can't say approximately how long Bulevar is, but I know I

Page 593

1 was there, absolutely, fortifying bunkers and other things.

2 Q. You said that you were brought -- that you were taken to -- that

3 you did also forced labour for Vinko Martinovic's units. Do you remember

4 who was it who took you from Heliodrom and where?

5 A. From Heliodrom, well, again a commander or other. It was about a

6 hundred detainees, and then one of Stela's - I don't know - commanders or

7 what took us.

8 Q. And when was that? Do you remember exactly in relation to your

9 arrival at Heliodrom? Was it the first day, the next day, ten days later?

10 A. No, not the first day. Perhaps a month or so later.

11 Q. A month or so later, I see. Do you remember this deputy

12 commander, as you say, which took you and the group of others to Stela's

13 unit?

14 A. No. How can I remember that?

15 Q. You can't remember, I said. Did you walk?

16 A. No. I already said lorries, lorries. I said that.

17 Q. So you and that group of people went in a lorry where? Where did

18 you go when you went to Stela's unit?

19 A. We went to the separation line; that is, we drove to the

20 separation line and then they took us, as many men as they needed.

21 Q. Now, let us clarify this. How many of you from Heliodrom went to

22 the separation line?

23 A. Some 80 to 100 men.

24 Q. So on the separation line itself. A smaller group, that is, you

25 and some others were singled out and taken where?

Page 594

1 A. To Stela's unit.

2 Q. And where was that?

3 A. Well, somewhere there nearby.

4 Q. How far did you -- were you driven there or did you walk?

5 A. No. We walked.

6 Q. How many steps did you make?

7 A. I can't count those steps. I counted days when I would get out

8 alive.

9 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Mr. Seric, excuse me. Excuse me, Mr.

10 Seric. Again the same problem. Not everybody can understand you, and we

11 need to use the services of interpreters, and it simply takes more time.

12 So will you please slow down.

13 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] My fault.

14 Q. Can you remember or place it in time and locate it from the line

15 of separation on the Bulevar to the place where Stela's unit was

16 deployed? How much space did you cover? How much time?

17 A. That was nearby.

18 Q. How close?

19 A. As I said, I don't know.

20 Q. You mentioned a coffee bar in a building.

21 A. Yes. He was -- it was owned by this Stela Martinovic.

22 Q. What was this coffee bar?

23 A. That's where they congregated. That's where they sang Ustasha

24 songs and so on.

25 Q. How did this coffee bar look?

Page 595

1 A. I wouldn't be able to tell you how it looked, because I was forced

2 to lie down on the floor and faced concrete, myself and this group.

3 Q. How long were you facedown?

4 A. For hours.

5 Q. Was this the first time when you were brought down there?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And how many times did they bring you down there?

8 A. Approximately twice.

9 Q. Well, was it approximately twice or twice?

10 A. Twice.

11 Q. And the second time you were brought there, was it the same

12 procedure?

13 A. The same procedure.

14 Q. And again, you were facedown again for an hour?

15 A. I did not measure the time, but it must have been around that

16 time.

17 Q. So when did you get up?

18 A. When the order came to get up.

19 Q. And where did you go after that?

20 A. We went to dig. It was some kind of a playground. There was some

21 canal or something we were digging.

22 Q. You said some playground or sports object? What was it?

23 A. It was nearby. It was near that coffee bar.

24 Q. How close was it?

25 A. About 50 metres.

Page 596

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Page 597

1 Q. So you are able to measure. So tell me now on which side.

2 A. To the left of the coffee bar.

3 Q. You mean towards the street?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. So when you got up and went to work at that playground, did you

6 look around?

7 A. You see, we were not given the opportunity. We did not have the

8 right to look around.

9 Q. Did you see Vinko Martinovic there at all?

10 A. Yes, I did.

11 Q. How was that possible?

12 A. Well, it was -- I -- as I said, he took Hasib Lulic. They had

13 been in prison together. So later on, he described very well for us who

14 Vinko Martinovic was.

15 Q. So you saw all this that you just described?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Witness A, a moment ago you said --

18 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] And my apologies to Mr. Fourmy because

19 I may go on just as Mr. Krsnik did.

20 Q. A moment ago, you said that it was not possible for you to look

21 around at all.

22 A. You just said.

23 Q. Excuse me. Please calm down and let me say what I have to say.

24 We'll go slowly, but we have to determine the truth.

25 A. Okay.

Page 598

1 Q. A moment ago, you stated that it was not possible at all for you

2 to look around.

3 A. Sir, it was not around. It was in front, ahead of me.

4 Q. It is said that we should go back and forth about things that are

5 very logical, but what is logical for me obviously is not logical to you.

6 So let me repeat the question.

7 If you had to look in front, how could you see that this person,

8 Lulic, took Vinko Martinovic or that they went off together to have a

9 drink? This is what you saw, and you saw nothing else?

10 A. Well, if you're asking me, as soon as we stepped onto that

11 property, he immediately called out Hasib Lulic and he said, "Oh, where

12 you been, buddy?" and he took him along to the coffee bar which was about

13 20 metres away. And the other one ordered us to lie down on the concrete,

14 facedown.

15 Q. Does that mean that you saw the coffee bar?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Where was that coffee bar? Where was its location?

18 A. I wouldn't be able to tell you. In fact - sorry - I can. It was

19 on the ground floor.

20 Q. The ground floor of what?

21 A. Ground floor of a building.

22 Q. I see. Ground floor of a building. Was it a multi-story

23 building?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Was it more than two floors?

Page 599

1 A. Yes, I believe there were four.

2 Q. I see, thank you. I must insist on this question, and I will let

3 you answer whatever you want, so you can say whatever you want because I'm

4 not going to follow up on it.

5 You said that you were taken to work to a playground which is

6 about 50 metres from Vinko Martinovic's coffee bar. Were you taken

7 anywhere else to do labour?

8 A. By this Stela?

9 Q. Yes.

10 A. No, we only worked there.

11 Q. On that playground?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Was there any shooting going on around this playground?

14 A. Of course.

15 Q. Was this playground a part of the line of separation?

16 A. Yes, it was right there.

17 Q. If we were to show you this playground on the map, would you be

18 able to identify it?

19 A. I may be.

20 Q. Does that mean that you dug on the playground, the playground

21 itself?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. You said that you know of Bulevar, what it means. Can you point

24 the position of the playground in relation to the Bulevar?

25 A. I wouldn't be able to do that.

Page 600

1 Q. Was it bordering the Bulevar -- or let me put it this way: What

2 about the location of the coffee bar?

3 A. I wouldn't be able to specify any of those locations.

4 Q. Very well. Did the coffee bar have, like, a terrace?

5 A. No.

6 Q. On several occasions you mentioned that Mr. Lulic's name was

7 Hasib. Are you sure about that?

8 A. I believe so.

9 Q. In your evidence today, you said that you saw Vinko Martinovic

10 hitting -- or beating, better said, Mirsad Kukic and Enes Kladusak?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Where were you at that moment?

13 A. I was there. I was digging a trench.

14 Q. Excuse me?

15 A. I was in the vicinity, digging a trench.

16 Q. You were digging?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Where were the two of them?

19 A. Which two?

20 Q. I mean Mirsad Kukic and Enes Kladusak.

21 A. They were there in front of me.

22 Q. Where was that?

23 A. On that playground.

24 Q. On the playground, very well. Can you explain why Mirsad Kukic

25 and Enes Kladusak did not confirm what you just said?

Page 601

1 A. That I don't know.

2 Q. Well, we'll learn. Did you remember any of the soldiers in Vinko

3 Martinovic's unit?

4 A. No, I did not.

5 Q. No one?

6 A. No.

7 Q. In one of your statements you described the deputy of Vinko

8 Martinovic.

9 A. I may have. I may have described him.

10 Q. Do you recall a person whom you at that time identified as Vinko

11 Martinovic's deputy? Would you remember him today?

12 A. I don't know. A lot fades from the memory.

13 Q. Let me restate, ask again. Would you have remembered him better

14 two years ago than today?

15 A. I believe so.

16 Q. You mentioned the killing on the, on the line. I mean, this is

17 from the transcript. That's what it says. Can you describe, first of

18 all, what is the line? Was that the playground that you described?

19 A. I meant the line of separation.

20 Q. Let me reiterate the last part of the question. Was that the

21 playground that you had referred to?

22 A. Yes, precisely.

23 Q. Thank you. Can you say whether this playground was also the zone

24 of responsibility of this Stela's unit?

25 A. Yes.

Page 602

1 Q. Well, now, if you try to recall your statement which you -- the

2 evidence you just gave, let's say, 15 minutes ago, you said between the

3 coffee bar and the playground there is about 50 metres, and now you said

4 that this was a playground, and that it was -- that the playground was

5 Vinko Martinovic's zone of responsibility.

6 Having all that in mind, can we determine the -- this 50 metres as

7 the distance between the line of separation and the coffee bar?

8 A. It wasn't more than ten metres.

9 Q. You mean between the coffee bar and the line of separation?

10 A. No, no, no. I'm talking about in general. There were places

11 where the line of separation was no more than ten metres between the

12 warring parties.

13 Q. Sir, please, please try to stay within logic. Add two and two,

14 please.

15 Based on what you have said so far, can we -- are we able to

16 conclude that between the coffee bar and the line of separation where you

17 were being taken, the distance was 50 metres?

18 A. It was more than 50 metres from the line of separation.

19 Q. And to the playground it was 50 metres?

20 A. Yes. The place where we were supposed to dig, probably to get

21 them closer to line of separation.

22 Q. So didn't you say a moment ago that that's where the line was?

23 A. No, that is not correct. I said that the playground was the zone

24 of responsibility of Vinko Martinovic.

25 Q. And that it was line of separation?

Page 603

1 A. Well, it was nearby the line.

2 Q. Well, how close? One, two, ten metres?

3 A. I don't know. I didn't know at that time how big it was.

4 Q. What did you use for digging?

5 A. We used spades.

6 Q. And how deep did you dig?

7 A. Up to the chest height.

8 Q. Was it -- did it matter whether you dug one or ten metres?

9 A. It was not the same. What do you mean?

10 Q. I asked you very clearly, based on the swing of your arm and your

11 vantage point, how far was the playground from the line of separation, or

12 was it not far at all?

13 A. As I said, I said that it wasn't far at all.

14 Q. I'm not going to insist any more.

15 A. Okay.

16 Q. Now, let's go back to the death on that stretch of the line or the

17 playground, and you're going to illuminate us on that, the death of a

18 prisoner who was working there. I'm not going to question you. Please,

19 in your own words, please describe that incident and the killing of that

20 person as you remember it.

21 A. I believe that I have already stated it. I don't know if I need

22 to repeat it.

23 Q. Sorry, sir. Witness A, you did not tell that story.

24 A. Well, who did?

25 Q. You said a single sentence. You just asserted that it happened,

Page 604

1 and because the Defence and I personally doubt that this is how it

2 happened, will you please give us the details of how it happened.

3 A. I was just trying to do that, but you're slowing me down.

4 Q. No, no, no. Please go ahead.

5 A. Well, we were digging there. Some were digging, that is, some

6 were carrying the sandbags. And as far as I recall, this person Haris, a

7 man from Bosnia, big, well-built, he was killed right there.

8 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] My apologies.

9 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Go ahead.

10 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11 Q. During your evidence today, you -- at one point you changed the

12 name of this soldier who was killed. At first you said that his name was

13 Arif.

14 A. No. I never said Arif.

15 Q. No? What did you say?

16 A. I think that his name was Haris.

17 Q. Are you sure that Hasib Lulic's name is indeed Hasib?

18 A. I'm not sure 100 per cent, but I think so.

19 Q. Is it possible that his name was Lulic -- that his name was Huso

20 Lulic?

21 A. No, no.

22 Q. Do you know a person called Huso Lulic?

23 A. I do.

24 Q. Where do you know him from?

25 A. He's the brother of Hasib Lulic.

Page 605

1 Q. Which of these two brothers knew Vinko Martinovic from before?

2 A. I said that already.

3 Q. Which one was it?

4 A. Hasib.

5 Q. Was Huso -- did Huso Lalic also have a criminal record?

6 A. Sorry, it wasn't Lalic, it's Lulic.

7 Q. Yes, Lulic.

8 A. Yes, he did.

9 Q. In your statement today, you said -- and I need to ask you in this

10 way because I don't know about this playground, where it was. You were

11 asked about being a human shield. To you, what does it mean to be a human

12 shield?

13 A. To me, it means wherever one is pushed ahead to be in the line of

14 fire.

15 Q. Who was pushing you and how were they pushing you in the line of

16 fire?

17 A. The HVO soldiers.

18 Q. Were these Vinko Martinovic's soldiers?

19 A. I cannot say that they were exclusively Vinko Martinovic's

20 soldiers. They were HVO soldiers, but yes.

21 Q. On what occasion was this?

22 A. I don't know. What do you mean by on which occasion? Can you

23 clarify that?

24 Q. This is why I'm asking you. I'm not clear about it, and it is

25 your evidence.

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Page 607

1 A. I absolutely don't follow you.

2 Q. And you are even more absolutely unclear to me, but let me

3 rephrase the question.

4 You said that you were brought to Vinko Martinovic twice.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. On one of these two occasions, were you and your fellow prisoners

7 taken as human shields?

8 A. Taken by whom? What do you mean?

9 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Mr. Fourmy, you see what kinds of

10 problems Defence is facing.

11 A. I only see problems coming from your side.

12 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] The witness is not answering

13 questions, he is fumbling and he is answering questions by asking

14 questions, so we are unable to proceed. And I would venture to say that

15 it's not just simple fumbling but really avoiding to say the truth.

16 Q. Witness A, I asked you very specifically --

17 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Mr. Seric. Mr. Seric. I understand

18 that when a party asks a question of witnesses and when these witnesses

19 are not what is expected that one is slightly disappointed and is driven

20 to a commentary, but I'm afraid you are now venturing into a difficult

21 ground. You are asking questions and the witness answered it or didn't

22 answer it, but it is up to you who needs to do the conclusions which need

23 to be drawn from these answers or absence of answers.

24 I also believe that one should bear in mind the time, that it is

25 already half past four. It was a long day. It wasn't an easy day for

Page 608

1 everybody, and especially the witness, who has, unlike you, never been in

2 a courtroom, and he is not really acquainted with all this machinery, all

3 these microphones, and all these people around here. So perhaps one

4 should bear this in mind. And I'd be grateful if you'd show some

5 patience.

6 And I'd also like to ask Witness A to try to be more alert and to

7 try to give as complete answers as possible to the questions asked by the

8 Defence then once again by the Prosecution, and to try to make his

9 testimony as fruitful as possible. Of course, if you do not understand a

10 question, you have the right to ask the clarifications, and if the answer

11 is simply not yours, please try to use your words in answering -- to

12 answer as best you can.

13 A. Yes.

14 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you. Mr. Seric.

15 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. You're absolutely right,

16 Mr. Fourmy. However, I need -- you must understand me. I do not expect a

17 question when I ask a question. I expect an answer.

18 Q. Let's go back to the issue of human shields. What happened -- but

19 let's go back and clear this up first because it was left vague. On those

20 two occasions -- please don't laugh.

21 A. I have to.

22 Q. We can stop and continue tomorrow.

23 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Excuse me. I also have to object

24 here. The witness is cynically smiling at me too. Will you please advise

25 the witness to stop doing that or we will interrupt.

Page 609

1 A. I'm sorry. I'm going to just simply stop looking over there at

2 all.

3 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Mr. Seric and Mr. Krsnik, I'd really

4 like us to continue to work under conditions which are acceptable for

5 everybody, but we are working here. And I apologise to the interpreters.

6 They're people -- I'm also one of those who speak too fast, but I'll try

7 to do something. But I think we must distinguish with those who are

8 professionals and those who are not. The fact is that Witness A is a

9 non-professional. At least we have not seen any proof that he was a

10 professional in an area which could be of interest to us, either from the

11 point of view of Prosecution or Defence. I understand that we will not --

12 this is -- and to accuse somebody to say something, that he is lying or

13 doing something, I'm afraid this is really not at a professional level.

14 I am not a professional psychologist, perhaps which I might like

15 to be, but everybody knows, everybody knows that in the situation that we

16 are -- one is, one is at discomfiture, one has problems to find his place,

17 to see the posture, and this is perhaps not a very happy situation for the

18 person, for that person.

19 The Witness A is now being grilled, as we would call it, and since

20 this morning. And there is a physical -- physical expression or postures

21 are not something that perhaps you would expect as a professional because

22 you are a professional. Because you have something -- I understand very

23 well, Mr. Seric, Mr. Krsnik, that the witness at times does give vent to

24 something which for you translates as I don't know what. I do not know

25 what he thinks, but I am quite convinced that your experience will allow

Page 610

1 you to overcome this kind of attitude.

2 And if you think we should interrupt him now, then we shall do, if

3 everybody wants that. The witness may be tired. If the accused also

4 think -- if you consult them, and if they think that is preferable, I am

5 merely your servant. I'm here at your orders. So that we can agree that

6 we shall resume tomorrow.

7 But before we take this decision, I should merely like to remind

8 you that the Prosecutor has envisaged 18 witnesses for ten days; that

9 during these -- of these ten days, nine days will be useful, good days;

10 that this is a difficult case and that questions that both parties are

11 asking the witness are showing that this is a difficult case. And what we

12 have to produce finally is the best possible work we can produce so that

13 as of the night of 5th September, the Judges, after the opening argument

14 of the Prosecutor, will be able to integrate this in the -- with the

15 transcript of these depositions and that they will then proceed to hearing

16 other witnesses so as to see that the case, the whole case, is brought to

17 an end as quickly as possible.

18 As you know, we're all minded to have the case tried as

19 expeditiously and fairly as possible. We are here serving -- we here

20 serve as test for a new procedure because we are now somewhere in between

21 the Status Conference and the trial. Strictly speaking, the witnesses

22 should not be victims of our searching, of our groping in the dark or what

23 we're trying to do right now in this.

24 But I should like to thank you all for your patience and for your

25 understanding. I should like to thank you for the help that you've

Page 611

1 extended me in learning this new procedure, but I'm sure concerns - and

2 now in inverted brackets - between the counsel and the witnesses, I think

3 one has to be professional, more than professional, as you should be,

4 Mr. Seric and Mr. Krsnik, and you should really not attach undue

5 importance to something which is evidently -- could be nothing else but

6 just a manner of self-defence.

7 And in my view, in view of these circumstances, and perhaps, I

8 don't know, Witness, perhaps we should leave you to rest until tomorrow if

9 everybody agrees to adjourn.

10 Mr. Prosecutor, we lost 25 minutes. That is in inverted

11 brackets. We shall try tomorrow to move on with more speed, if you agree,

12 Mr. Krsnik and Mr. Seric, and if it is also in agreement with your

13 clients, perhaps that is what we should do.

14 Prosecution? What does the Prosecution think?

15 MR. SCOTT: May it please the Court, Your Honour [sic], everyone

16 seems to be commenting on Witness A's demeanour, and so I will take the

17 opportunity to say I think he's been in amazingly good humour for someone

18 who has been subjected to the type of cross-examination that he's been

19 subjected to this afternoon, so the fact that he is smiling I think is not

20 objectionable at all.

21 I'm in the Chamber's hands to some extent on the schedule. I

22 think, with all respect to Mr. Seric, and I do want him to be able to

23 conduct what he feels is a fair cross-examination, but having said that,

24 if he actually thinks he can finish between now and 5.00, I think that we

25 should try to finish today so that we can release this witness and we can

Page 612

1 move on tomorrow, if he thinks he can do so.

2 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] I hope I will be able to. I don't

3 know if the witness is up to it.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, of course I can.

5 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you, Witness.

6 Thank you, Mr. Seric. Go ahead.

7 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. So let us go back to the human shield. Sir, I'm going to the

9 beginning. Once you were at Vinko Martinovic's -- twice, you told us.

10 Were you ever used on those two occasions as a human shield?

11 A. No, not on those occasions, but I was used as such.

12 Q. Thank you. You see, we've clarified it in no time at all.

13 You mentioned, Witness A, and then there were -- and then there

14 can be two questions, but it will really depend on you and we can be

15 over. The wooden rifles --

16 A. Yes, exactly. When we were taken as a human shield, we were given

17 wooden rifles. We had to walk in front of them and walk towards the army

18 of BiH.

19 Q. A moment ago you said that on those two occasions when you were at

20 Vinko Martinovic's, you were not used as a human shield. Does that mean

21 that you did not use any wooden rifles on those two occasions when you

22 were at Vinko Martinovic's?

23 A. Well, it's on that same separation line. It has to do with

24 Martinovic.

25 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Mr. Fourmy --

Page 613

1 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Excuse me, I think this is not the

2 question that the Defence -- that the counsel asked you. If I understood

3 the question of the counsel, it was whether you had any wooden rifles on

4 the two occasions that you were, that you were in front of Vinko

5 Martinovic's coffee bar. So, did you, in front of Mr. Vinko Martinovic's

6 coffee bar, have wooden rifles?

7 That was your question, I believe, Mr. Seric.

8 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Yes, it was.

9 A. Yes, yes.

10 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. And you personally had a wooden rifle?

12 A. No. I didn't say I did, but my -- others did.

13 Q. Can you tell us who?

14 A. No, I can't.

15 Q. Why not?

16 A. Why? Because there were not all that many rifles. And they were

17 not rifles, they were just pieces of wood. Two or three soldiers.

18 Q. Could you please tell us whether they were wooden rifles or just

19 pieces of wood, sticks?

20 A. Well, just sticks, but they -- but just made in the form of wooden

21 rifles.

22 Q. Oh, well, now tell us: A moment ago you said you were not used as

23 a human shield whilst you were at Vinko Martinovic's. Now you say that

24 wooden rifles were used, that there were two or three of them given to

25 some soldiers whose names you do not know. What did they do with them?

Page 614

1 A. With -- what do you mean?

2 Q. With those sticks or wooden rifles.

3 A. What they did with them? They turned them back to the soldiers.

4 Q. And how long did they keep them?

5 A. About 15 minutes.

6 Q. Where? Where was that?

7 A. Well, there, there on that line. On that line facing the armija.

8 Q. And where were they given those rifles?

9 A. There in front of the coffee bar. In front of the playground, the

10 playground, sorry, but there.

11 Q. And where were you personally at that moment?

12 A. I was also there, tied with my colleague, our hands tied with my

13 colleague and walking in front.

14 Q. But you said that you were digging a while ago.

15 A. Yes, we did, but that was the human shield.

16 Q. But you said you were not used as a human shield on those two

17 occasions when you were at Vinko Martinovic's. Excuse me. Can you hear

18 what you are saying?

19 A. Yes, I can.

20 Q. But do you remember what you said three minutes ago?

21 A. I'm very tired already, and maybe I am not really recalling all

22 that.

23 Q. A moment ago, you said that you were at Vinko Martinovic's on two

24 occasions there in his coffee bar and that on those two occasions you were

25 not used as human shield, and that is in the transcript and the record for

Page 615

1 the third or fourth time, this statement. Now you say that you held hands

2 here on the playground, on the line. So I don't know if you were digging

3 or if you were a human shield, if you had a rifle. Were you there at

4 all?

5 A. Well, according to you, we were not there at all.

6 Q. Well, now, we've agreed, at Mr. Fourmy's initiative, that you are

7 not a professional, so that I will ignore your remark.

8 Where did you find the term "human shield" from?

9 A. Well, you -- well, I also read some press and watched television.

10 I also heard about human shields. Why shouldn't I?

11 Q. So I see. You followed and read the press. But did you ever read

12 the indictment against Vinko Martinovic and Mladen Naletilic?

13 A. I really didn't go much into that.

14 Q. Did you follow the coverage of their arrest and proceedings

15 against them?

16 A. Yes, but very cursorily.

17 Q. Is that where you read that expression "human shield"?

18 A. I don't remember. No, I don't think so.

19 Q. But where?

20 A. Well, in newspapers one could see that.

21 Q. But where?

22 A. Where? What do you mean "where"?

23 Q. I don't mean anything. I'm asking you: Where did you read? In

24 what context? Did it have to do with The Hague trials?

25 A. No.

Page 616

1 Q. Does that mean that you read it in some technical literature?

2 A. Well, I read it. I saw what a human shield was. I saw it with my

3 own eyes personally.

4 Q. Where did you read about that? Where did you read the term "human

5 shield"?

6 A. I read it in the newspaper. Every newspaper wrote about those

7 human shields.

8 Q. Do you know the purpose of those wooden rifles? I already asked

9 you that.

10 A. I don't know why you want to know the purpose of these rifles.

11 Q. Well, if you're asking me, I will answer myself. No. It serves

12 no purpose for me.

13 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Witness, please. No. First for the

14 interpreters, Mr. Seric, please mind the break between question and

15 answer.

16 Witness, counsel asked you a rather simple question: Who had and

17 how many wooden rifles were there in those groups. And you were asked

18 what were the purpose of those rifles, and you tell us what is your

19 impression. What was the purpose of those wooden rifles? It was a pretty

20 straightforward question, so will you please answer it.

21 A. I don't know really how to answer it, but, well, a wooden rifle,

22 because the adversary soldier, that is one of the army of BH, he could

23 only laugh at it. I don't know what it was.

24 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Is that an answer to your question or

25 do you want to pursue it?

Page 617

1 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] No, no. I'm very happy as far as that

2 is concerned.

3 Q. But now, tell us, did the soldiers laugh there at one another or

4 fire at one another?

5 A. Naturally they fired at one another.

6 Q. But, no, when those people had wooden rifles.

7 A. Well, then they laughed.

8 Q. Was anyone killed on that occasion?

9 A. Yes. Osman Lulic was wounded, and he is 100 per cent disabled.

10 And Hasan Tasic was also disabled.

11 Q. When several of your fellow detainees were using wooden rifles on

12 that occasion, on that occasion were both of them wounded?

13 A. No, no, no. Not exactly, no.

14 Q. And finally, I'll ask you my last question, Witness. This thing

15 about human shields and wooden rifles, did you hear about it? Did

16 somebody tell you about that? Nothing bad will happen to you. Nobody

17 will ask you. Or did you really see it and experience it?

18 A. Not seen; I went through it.

19 Q. Then how do you explain -- how do you explain that today -- when

20 did I start? Sometime after 3.00, and now it's almost 5.00. You are

21 giving us completely different answers.

22 A. I wouldn't say that.

23 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

24 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you. Anything in

25 re-examination?

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Page 619

1 MR. SCOTT: No, Your Honour. In light of the hour, especially, I

2 would ask to have just one moment of your time after the witness is

3 released, please.

4 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Yes. Madam Registrar, I believe we

5 have a document, document with the -- which shows the identity of the

6 witness, and there is another document which was on the ELMO which is the

7 fragment of the statement. It was identified.

8 And is it being tendered as evidence for the Defence as well?

9 Mr. Krsnik, Mr. Seric, did you want to tender in evidence the three

10 statements that -- the one to the security service and the two made to the

11 OTP, you wish to tender -- to adduce them into evidence in relation to the

12 testimony of Witness A?

13 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Yes, indeed, that is so. They are

14 all ready, all the three statements that you have just mentioned, so you

15 don't need the fragment.

16 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Prosecutor, do you have any

17 objections at this stage?

18 MR. SCOTT: No, Your Honour, except that's what I would like to

19 address after the Chamber -- after the witness is released.

20 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Very well. Yes. We can use these

21 ten minutes to do whatever there is to do.

22 Witness A, thank you very much for coming. And I should also like

23 to ask you in my own name, because as I've had the opportunity to say a

24 moment ago, this is quite a new procedure, and you are its victim, in a

25 way, because that is the first time we are trying to do this in the

Page 620

1 Tribunal, that is, to have a witness before a Presiding Officer, because

2 that is the only thing that I am here, a Presiding Officer, whereas

3 normally it would be heard by the Judges.

4 So thank you very much for the patience you have shown to answer

5 all the questions that were asked of you, and I hope that you will travel

6 back peacefully, and I wish you all the best in your future life. Thank

7 you very much. Thank you and good night. Farewell.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you very much.

9 [The witness withdrew]

10 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Mr. Prosecutor, if the Defence

11 agrees, perhaps five minutes each to discuss this matter of exhibits, and

12 especially when it concerns the preliminary statements.

13 Yes, Mr. Scott.

14 MR. SCOTT: Mr. Fourmy, I just want the record to be perfectly

15 clear now that the statements have been tendered and admitted, at least

16 for these purposes, in evidence, that contrary to Mr. Krsnik's assertions

17 to the witness that just was dismissed, there was nothing, absolutely

18 nothing inconsistent in these three statements about who made the orders

19 or who made the speech at the Sovici school about the 18th of April.

20 If the Chamber -- if you have -- if you can be provided, and it

21 would probably -- you probably don't have -- I'm not sure if you have the

22 English version or the B/C/S version. It was the statement that was put

23 on the ELMO. In the interests of time, I will just simply read it to you,

24 Mr. Fourmy, if I am allowed to, and just -- because otherwise, it may take

25 some minutes, just mechanically. But if I read it incorrectly, I'm sure I

Page 621

1 will be corrected.

2 The immediate following sentence that I asked Mr. Krsnik to read

3 which he would not read says: "I didn't hear myself that he, Tuta, was

4 giving any orders, but I suppose that he was the one giving orders."

5 It says nothing whatsoever about Mr. Tuta making a speech, and

6 today at 15 hours 12 minutes and 31 seconds, the statement that

7 Mr. Krsnik --

8 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Mr. Scott, please.

9 MR. SCOTT: The question that Mr. Krsnik put to the witness, and

10 he said: "And in your third statement, you said it was Tuta who gave the

11 speech and told you to go on the buses."

12 That was the question that Mr. Krsnik put to the witness and which

13 the witness denied. And it's clear from looking, from reviewing, his

14 statements that there was absolutely nothing inconsistent about that.

15 And the second statement that the Chamber will now have, since the

16 Defence has put it into evidence, from 27th of November, 2000, at the top

17 of page --

18 THE INTERPRETER: Could you slow down, please.

19 MR. SCOTT: At the top of page 5 of the English version, the

20 witness said, and I quote: "When we came out of the school to get the

21 speech, I saw Tuta standing on the side of the school yard."

22 It goes on further to say in the next paragraph: "Tuta did not

23 say or do anything at that time."

24 That is -- these are the reasons that when a witness is

25 cross-examined in that manner, the only fair thing to do is to put the

Page 622

1 statement in front of the witness, give him a chance to see the statement

2 that he's being accused of being inconsistent with, and give him a fair

3 chance to respond once the full statements have been put to him. That was

4 not the procedure followed by Mr. Krsnik this afternoon. It's not

5 proper. Thank you.

6 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Mr. Krsnik.

7 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] My learned friend interpreted it as

8 it suited him, but I cannot agree with that, because I was more than

9 clear, and let me repeat.

10 The witness made three statements. In the first one, he never

11 mentions either Tuta or the speaker, unknown or known.

12 In his second statement, he speaks about an unknown speaker whom

13 he doesn't know, and the unknown speaker issues the order to board the

14 bus. In that third statement and today before the Court -- no, excuse me,

15 today before the Court for the first time, firstly he says that is Ivan

16 Rogic. Ivan Rogic issues the order, and then in the first statement to

17 the OTP he said the order was given to board the bus. I think it was

18 Tuta.

19 Excuse me, if that is not different, if that is not inconsistent,

20 then what is consistent? And because of that, that is why I submitted the

21 OTP statements, not the Defence's statement; that is, witness's statement

22 to the OTP, not to the Defence, and all three of them. And then you can

23 see the consistency of this witness because -- and I really think that any

24 further discussion on this matter would be completely redundant.

25 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] I'm not quite sure, Mr. Krsnik, but

Page 623

1 it is quite true --

2 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] For the Defence, for the Defence. I

3 apologise, Mr. Fourmy. I wouldn't even have raised the point. I think I

4 was very precise and very clear during my cross-examination.

5 And if I may, if I may take the liberty, I hope you won't hold it

6 against me, I should like to ask you tomorrow and further on, I shall

7 indeed try to focus, but I should really ask to be interrupted as little

8 as possible in my cross-examination, not to give witnesses time,

9 especially when they find themselves between, between the rock and the

10 hard place. We shall do what we can, but we shall try indeed to heed to

11 our today's understanding.

12 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Mr. Krsnik, I do not intend to

13 interrupt anyone, whoever it may be, either during the examination or

14 cross-examination of any witness. The only thing is that if I do not

15 understand something, then I'm afraid many other people will not

16 understand what is being said. And I think, even though I may not be much

17 more intelligent than many others, but at least in general, I should get

18 the gist of what the witness is saying, and if I do not do that, even with

19 my intelligence, then I think something is wrong.

20 And if I may say, every side will conduct its examination and

21 cross-examination as it wishes, but one must not forget that witnesses are

22 people who are coming here to help us in order to dispense justice.

23 Witnesses are not animals, draught beasts who are brought here, who are

24 moved from one cage to another so that they are moved from left to right,

25 also that they are offered a piece of cheese to -- so that they would go

Page 624

1 from one corner of the cage to another. They, they come where one wants

2 to bring them. And I think that we wish the witnesses to tell us what

3 they saw, heard, noted, and experienced.

4 And thirdly, I think that some witnesses, I won't say the vast

5 majority of the witnesses who come to the Tribunal - and you know better

6 than I do - are also victims. And to be a victim, this is not a place for

7 them.

8 And I really did not have to interrupt you, and perhaps I should

9 apologise. I interrupted you three or four times, but I had to do that.

10 But you have to be interrupted because of the victim, because he never

11 stops being a victim; that is, we are not according sufficient -- we must

12 accord enough time so that everybody can understand both your question and

13 your answer.

14 So yes, there can evidently be frustrations when you ask a

15 question of a witness, and I believe the same goes for a Prosecutor - must

16 be even worse for the Prosecutor who must ask questions of the witness -

17 to wait for the answer, and when also things go bad, the Prosecutor does

18 not and will not, nor will you do it, to force the witness to move from

19 answer A to answer B because it is better for him, because then it will

20 not help justice.

21 As for the statements, that is, the preliminary statements,

22 statements which were given to this or that authority, whatever body,

23 Prosecutor, perhaps we could have a correction -- unless the parties have

24 agreed, you said that the preliminary statements which are submitted by

25 the Defence were admitted?

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Page 626

1 If everybody agrees that these statements be admitted, then

2 perhaps this could be reflected in the record in the transcript. But as

3 you know, as far as I'm concerned, I merely wish to note that these

4 documents are tendered. They're produced into evidence because these are

5 matters that should be decided solely by the Chamber.

6 Of course, it can be -- and the parties may -- of course, they are

7 great, and the latest argument that we heard, that is, whether the witness

8 said this or that, but one should understand that it is very, very

9 difficult to receive an answer which does not tell you what one has read

10 in a statement. But this interpretation can, of course, be the subject,

11 when the time comes in, shall we say, about a dozen months or so, at that

12 time perhaps it would be time for such comments, for such comments because

13 it will be then -- then the time will come to the closing arguments; that

14 is, I mean at the end of the case. At present, one should only examine,

15 cross-examine witnesses, perhaps incoherences, inaccuracies, and all sorts

16 of things, but to conclude, I think it is simply too early to draw any

17 conclusions.

18 And I'm sorry tonight, I apologise if I'm not giving the floor to

19 either side, but it is now ten past five, and I think that the

20 interpreters are already tired. So I should like to thank you for this

21 first day. I believe we have all learned a great deal, and I should like

22 to thank you for the patience shown at this late hour. Tomorrow we shall

23 resume our work again in this same courtroom at 9.15.

24 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 5.07 p.m., to

25 be reconvened on Tuesday, the 24th day of

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1 July, 2001, at 9.15 a.m.

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