1 Thursday, 26 July 2001
2 [Depositions Hearing]
3 [Open session]
4 [The accused entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.17 a.m.
6 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Good morning. Please be seated. Can
7 we have Witness D brought in, please.
8 Mr. Krsnik, good morning.
9 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Good morning.
10 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Can we have the witness brought in
11 for your cross-examination.
12 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] The cross-examination will be
13 conducted by my co-counsel, Ms. Lasan.
14 [The witness takes the stand]
15 WITNESS: WITNESS D [Resumed]
16 [Witness answered through interpreter]
17 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness D.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
19 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Please make yourself comfortable. I
20 hope you're not too tired this morning. It is the turn of the Defence to
21 ask questions, and it will be Ms. Lasan.
22 Your witness, Ms. Lasan.
23 Cross-examined by Ms. Lasan:
24 Q. [Interpretation] [No translation].
25 A. Good morning.
1 Q. Good morning, Witness D.
2 A. Good morning.
3 Q. I had to repeat my greeting because of the transcript. I will
4 repeat something that you heard yesterday by way of introduction as a part
5 of your testimony was completed yesterday, but I would like to remind you
6 that you took a solemn declaration promising to tell the truth, and that
7 you would, indeed, be telling only the truth. For us to complete our
8 examination, I have reminded you of that because that is precisely the
9 kind of answer I expect of you in harmony with the solemn declaration that
10 you made.
11 Yesterday the gentleman from the Prosecution asked you questions
12 that were mostly leading, and you briefly confirmed the statements made in
13 his questions. I will be questioning you in a slightly different way. I
14 will be putting questions to you and you will have to give us more
15 detailed answers, because we feel that the way in which the questions were
16 put to you was not quite appropriate.
17 But let me start with the questions. Tell me, madam, when exactly
18 did you arrive in The Hague?
19 A. On the 21st.
20 Q. How many times did you meet with our colleagues from the
21 Prosecution until yesterday?
22 A. Once.
23 Q. Before you arrived in The Hague, how many times did you meet with
24 representatives of the Prosecution in connection with your testimony?
25 A. Twice.
1 Q. Did you give statements to anyone else about these events?
2 A. No.
3 Q. So may I take it that you spoke a total of three times with
4 representatives of the OTP?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. When was your last conversation with them?
7 A. On Tuesday afternoon.
8 Q. Tuesday afternoon? That was the 24th of July; right?
9 A. The 24th, yes.
10 Q. After the 24th of July, you did not talk to representatives of the
12 A. No.
13 Q. Thank you. Let me now go back to the subject of your deposition
14 yesterday. (redacted)
1 MS. LASAN: [Interpretation] Could we please go into private
2 session, because my questions may be linked to some names. So for the
3 sake of safety, I would suggest that we remain in private session until
4 the end of this deposition.
5 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Mr. Prosecutor.
6 MR. BOS: Yes, Mr. Fourmy. I would really prefer that we would go
7 into private session if she's going to ask about where the witness lived
8 before she came to Sovici.
9 MR. SCOTT: And lines 18 through 23 should be redacted.
10 MR. BOS: Yes. And I would request for a redaction.
11 [Private session]
12 Pages 930 to 972 redacted, private session
22 [Open session]
23 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Registrar, could you tell us where
24 are we as regards exhibits and what is their status, because that is
25 something that I believe we should do before the next witness comes.
1 Thank you.
2 THE REGISTRAR: Mr. Fourmy, as far as I know and as far as my
3 records show, the Defence has tendered -- well, the Defence for
4 Mr. Naletilic has tendered nine exhibits: D1/2 is confidential, D1/6 is
5 confidential, D1/7 is confidential, D1/8 is confidential, and D1/9 is also
6 confidential, and that is because of the protection of the witnesses.
7 The Defence for Mr. Martinovic has tendered, I believe, two
8 documents, and they are not confidential, and neither are the
9 Prosecution's exhibits. I think they've tendered about seven or eight
10 with the different numbers that we've agreed to.
11 There's just one other issue I'd like to raise while I'm standing.
12 I would like to remind the parties that we must have official
13 translations. We must have an English translation and a B/C/S, if that's
14 what you're tendering, to be submitted when you're handing in the
15 documents. This is something very important. And I realise that the
16 Defence doesn't have necessarily copies of English, but I urge you to work
17 with the Prosecution and get what you need before we tender those
18 documents to the Court.
19 Also, I remind you to - excuse me - have the requisite copies that
20 are needed: one for the OTP, one for the Registry, one for Mr. Fourmy, and
21 three for the booths. They need those copies in order to translate. They
22 cannot do it just by looking at the screen. They're subject to making
23 more errors.
24 So I would request that this be handled, and next week I would
25 like to see that we would run smoothly with the tendering of these
1 documents. Thank you.
2 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you, Madam Registrar.
3 Yes, Mr. Par.
4 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] If I may, only a minute in relation to
5 copies in English. So that it doesn't arise as a problem again, I'd like
6 to make a suggestion. It is very difficult for us to have English
7 translations ready. I'm referring to the statements that we present
8 during the examinations. The reason is that we simply did not get -- do
9 not get them in advance, sufficiently in advance. On the other hand, the
10 Prosecutor has been kind enough to give us their copies of these
11 statements. But we cannot ask for these copies in advance, sometimes for
12 technical reasons and sometimes we do not know if we shall want to -- we
13 shall be wanting to tender any such statement into evidence.
14 And in view of that, we really cannot satisfy the request of the
15 Registry to have the translations in advance. But I'd like to suggest
16 something, if our learned friends agree with that: As they have all those
17 statements in English, perhaps for the week when we already have a list of
18 witnesses, and I know we shall have five or six witnesses, perhaps they
19 could give us these statements in English for all those witnesses so that
20 then we could get -- so that we could prepare in advance for what the
21 Registry is asking us to do. I hope that I was clear enough.
22 So, in other words, I'm asking the Prosecution for a week in
23 advance, say, for five or six witnesses, to give us the statements of
24 these witnesses in English. We shall copy them. We shall prepare that,
25 and this perhaps could be a way to solve this technical problem. Thank
2 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Mr. Par, if I may take the liberty, I
3 think that this idea runs along the ideas that I had, and that was
4 something that I wanted to address to the Prosecution, but it is too late
5 because the Prosecution has had the same idea.
6 Prosecutor, are you about to tell us that you will indeed
7 endeavour to submit the English translations of the witnesses prior to the
8 appearance of these witnesses and sometime in advance?
9 MR. SCOTT: Mr. Fourmy, I must say I'm frankly surprised that the
10 English translations were not provided if they weren't, and without
11 meaning to question counsel's representations, I will just seek to verify
12 what the exact status from our office's records show. However, in any
13 event, we're happy to provide English translations and we'll seek -- in
14 fact, there's already been conversations off the record that we would seek
15 to provide a full set of English translations of statements, and if that
16 wasn't done to date, then we'll correct that in the immediate future.
17 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. I believe we've
18 agreed -- reached an agreement on this matter. And now, Prosecutor, can
19 we move on to the next witness? He also asked for protection measures,
20 that is, the pseudonym and facial and voice distortion. Is there a
21 request for some other -- for some other protection measures? That is,
22 the only other possibilities are a private session or a closed session.
23 MR. SCOTT: Mr. Fourmy, there is no request for additional
24 protection. In fact, on further discussion, the witness does not
25 persist -- does not insist on voice distortion, which I know sometimes is
1 technically more difficult, and the witness is prepared to go forward on
2 the basis of a pseudonym and only his facial image distortion.
3 THE REGISTRAR: The pseudonym for this witness will be E.
4 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you, Madam Registrar.
5 Mr. Usher, will you please bring Witness E in, and who will be
6 making his deposition under pseudonym and with his -- with image
8 MR. SCOTT: Mr. Fourmy, while the witness is being brought in, I
9 keep meaning to do this but we always get busy with moving on. I do
10 have -- we have a binder for you and a binder for the Registry of the same
11 binder of exhibits that we gave to the Defence counsel yesterday
12 afternoon. So what I am about to do, with the case manager's help, is to
13 give you a copy, a set, and give the Registry a set, please.
14 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you.
15 Good morning. Can you hear me?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well.
17 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] You have asked for protection
18 measures. They are granted, so that you will have a pseudonym and your
19 face will be distorted on the screen. Your pseudonym is "Witness E." So
20 do not bother when I address you only as Witness E, and both parties will
21 also address you in the same fashion.
22 Please be seated -- before you sit down, we shall ask you to make
23 the solemn declaration which the usher will give you.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, and good morning to
25 everybody in this courtroom.
1 I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,
2 and nothing but the truth.
3 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you. You may be seated,
4 Witness E. Please make yourself comfortable.
5 WITNESS: WITNESS E
6 [Witness answered through interpreter]
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
8 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Just make yourself at ease. Yes, by
9 the microphones. Thank you.
10 The usher will now give you a sheet of paper with your name. Do
11 not say your name aloud. Just tell us simply if that is your name. Is
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it is.
14 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you. I think that the
15 Prosecutor has already explained to you how things happen here. I'm not a
16 Judge. I am what we call here a Presiding Officer, but all that you say
17 here will be recorded and will make part of a transcript. It will allow
18 the Judges to judge everything that you have said and also to judge for
19 themselves your credibility.
20 What I have to ask you, Witness E, is to make your answers as
21 precise, as clear, as brief as possible to the questions that will be
22 asked of you first by the Prosecution, then by the Defence. There are two
23 Defence teams for each one of the accused. I do not know whether both
24 teams will have questions of you or only one of the Defence teams, but
25 after that, if the Prosecutor wishes to do so, he may also -- he will be
1 entitled to ask you some additional questions.
2 So this is the way in which we shall proceed, and unless you have
3 some questions, we shall give the floor to the Prosecutor.
4 Yes, please, Mr. Scott.
5 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. Fourmy. I did not want to interrupt
6 these additional preliminaries, but again without losing the opportunity
7 again, I would like to tender these binders to you and to the Registry,
9 Examined by Mr. Scott:
10 Q. Witness E, good morning.
11 A. Good morning.
12 Q. By way of background, Witness, let me just indicate -- is it
13 correct that you are a person of Muslim ethnicity and you were born in the
14 city of Mostar in Bosnia-Herzegovina, that you lived in Mostar, in fact,
15 all of your life up until the -- approximately June of 1993? Is that
17 A. If I may, just a minor correction. I am a Bosniak, but Islam is
18 my faith.
19 Q. Very well. I appreciate that. And you lived at the time about --
20 in the spring of 1993, early summer 1993, in what's sometimes called West
21 Mostar; is that correct?
22 A. It is.
23 Q. Can you please tell the Chamber -- again, there's going to be a
24 few questions here by way of background before we get to the main part of
25 your testimony, but I think it would be helpful.
1 Would you tell the Chamber, during the spring and summer of 1993,
2 were you involved in any sort of a local cultural group or society that
3 was promoting ethnic unity and reconciliation in the area of Herzegovina?
4 THE INTERPRETER: The witness nods his head. Can he be asked to
5 say it?
6 MR. SCOTT:
7 Q. Witness, you're going to have to help us a bit. You're just
8 nodding your head. We have to make a record, so if you can give a verbal
9 response. You may want to sit -- maybe lean a little bit more into the
11 A. Yes. That was a cultural society of the Muslims called the
12 Preporod Renaissance, and I can say that Friar Andrija Nikic was also our
13 member. He was also a member of the Croat cultural society. And another
14 one who was the president of the Serb cultural society, the Prosveta,
15 Enlightenment. That is, we had members of other ethnicities.
16 I can speak in my own name, but I can also say that our chief
17 objective was to find the best way of communication amongst different
18 ethnic groups whilst -- and avoid problems which could arise simply
19 because of the lack of understanding.
20 During the war, we issued a paper dealing with culture and
21 cultural issues called Behar. We had an orchestra which was also called
22 Behar, and we were also engaged in the education of children who had been
23 dislocated from Bosnia -- from Croatia to Bosnia because of the combat
24 operations there.
25 Q. All right. Witness E, two follow-up questions to that. Then if I
1 understand you correctly, in fact this was a multi-ethnic organisation or
2 had members from different ethnicities who were seeking to provide for
3 multi-ethnic peace and, again, reconciliation in the area; is that
5 A. Yes, it is.
6 Q. And can we understand from that that as a result of this close
7 involvement of yours, that perhaps you, even more than perhaps some other
8 persons, followed these kinds of events and issues with some degree of
10 A. Well, I can say that, yes, I followed all the political
11 developments in the town and around it as far, of course, as I could, as
12 information was accessible to me.
13 Q. All right. Now, moving forward, can you tell the Chamber, please
14 - I'm directing your attention to about June or July 1992 - do you
15 remember the name of a particular officer who was appointed over the -- to
16 head the defence of Mostar at that time?
17 A. Yes. It was Jasmin Jaganjac.
18 Q. And can you tell the Chamber who appointed, to your knowledge, who
19 appointed Mr. Jaganjac in this position?
20 A. As far as I could learn, he had been appointed by the Croatian
22 Q. And is it fair to say, then, in subsequent time that at that time,
23 the HVO and together with Muslim units were able to liberate the area of
24 Mostar in fighting against at that time the Serbs; is that correct?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And can you tell us, what was the status, if any, of the armed
2 conflict between specifically the Croats and the Serbs in the area of
3 Mostar after that time, if there was continuing conflict?
4 A. I think the thing had been agreed in advance. There was a
5 cease-fire which had been agreed somewhere about which -- and at a meeting
6 about which the public in Mostar had not been informed.
7 Q. Let me ask the question perhaps a little bit differently. In your
8 experience, having been living -- excuse me, since you were living in
9 Mostar at that time, did there continue to be substantial armed conflict
10 between the Croats and Serbs in the Mostar area after that time?
11 A. No, no. There was no conflict down there. Not major conflicts.
12 Yes, there was sporadic incidents, but not a major conflict.
13 Q. Now, I want to direct your attention forward to October 1992. Can
14 you tell us about any events that happened around the city of Prozor at
15 that time that you were aware of.
22 Q. All right. Now, Witness E, just out of precaution, I'm going
23 to -- even though you've been given protection measures, I'm going to
24 caution you about using names of any family members that might tend to
25 identify, perhaps might tend to identify you. So I don't think so much
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
13 and the English transcripts.
1 that the current answer was particularly problematic, but if you can just
2 keep that in mind, please. So you --
3 A. Thank you.
4 Q. I'm sorry. You learned around this time, then, that there had
5 been an HVO attack on the Muslim population in Prozor in about October of
6 1992; is that correct?
7 A. Yes, that is correct.
8 Q. Now, around this time, did you learn -- did it come to your
9 attention that it was, at least among the Croat leadership at that time -
10 I'm not suggesting for a moment that it was all Croats - but in terms of
11 the Bosnian Croat leadership at that time, did any political or military
12 view come -- that they held come to your attention?
13 A. In connection with those events, a mixed commission of the BH army
14 and the HVO was formed which never worked effectively, nor did they inform
15 the public about the moves they took. However, according to subsequent
16 developments, this was the beginning of a kind of settling of accounts
17 which clearly was politically planned from some other centre.
18 Q. And can you tell the Chamber, please, to your knowledge, what was
19 the stated or expressed view of this Bosnian Croat leadership towards the
20 existence of two armies, say, or two governments in the area of
22 A. I heard that from a couple of leaders of the HVO, that it was
23 simply not possible to have two armies in one and the same area. And this
24 meant, as events subsequently showed, that the conflict had been
1 Q. Now, I'm going to direct your attention to the 18th of April in
2 Mostar concerning a building called the Vranica building. Did anything
3 happen concerning that building on the 18th of April, 1993?
4 A. An attack occurred on -- against the building which housed the
5 command of the BH army. This was carried out by a group of men dressed in
6 black uniforms. They wounded the guard at the entrance, and there was
7 shooting on the Bulevar from the direction of the old Catholic church
8 towards the positions of the BH army. The attack was carried out with
9 mortars, whereas the attack on the actual BH command was carried out with
10 traditional weapons: rifles.
11 Q. Now, can you tell us, please, your observation at the time,
12 whether this was considered to be a -- the opening of a major or in itself
13 a major armed conflict, or did it seem to you something else?
14 A. It seemed to me that something very serious was going on because I
15 saw the deployment of snipers. They weren't even concealing this, and
16 they were being distributed in various buildings. They were members of
17 the Croatian armed forces. And the atmosphere in general was extremely
18 tense. And there was an attack on the Projektant building, too.
19 Q. All right. Now, while this was going on and while you've just
20 mentioned there were snipers being positioned by the Croatian forces, can
21 you tell the Chamber, was anything happening around this time in
22 connection with Muslim businesses in the city Mostar?
23 A. The Muslim businesses in the western part of Mostar, most
24 frequently close to the old Velez stadium where the coffee bars were, were
25 blown up at night-time. They were simply being destroyed.
1 Q. Now, did this further period of unrest, if I can just describe it
2 as that for a moment, did that result in other negotiations between the
3 ABiH side and the HVO side about that time?
4 A. Yes. Negotiations were conducted to calm the situation down and
5 avoid an escalation of the conflict in the streets, and an agreement was
6 reached that the Croatian forces should withdraw to the Stari Logar area,
7 that the BH army forces should withdraw to the southern logar, that they
8 should abandon the hotel where the unit was housed. This was carried out
9 by the army. A small group remained in Vranica, however.
10 Q. All right. Now, you used a word just now and it was probably --
11 well, undoubtedly a native term, and I'm sure I won't be -- "logar" or
12 something in describing these two locations to which the troops on both
13 sides were withdrawing. Is that something like a barrack or a camp, or
14 can you help us with that?
15 A. These two old barracks built probably during the Austrio-Hungarian
16 empire, and members of the Yugoslav People's Army used to be housed in
17 them. So they are barracks, not camps for civilians.
18 Q. All right. And the agreement at that time that was negotiated, it
19 was essentially that the ABiH army would withdraw to what might be called
20 also the southern barracks and that the HVO would withdraw to the northern
21 barracks. Is that then a fair characterisation of what you said?
22 A. Yes. That is how I was informed.
23 Q. All right. Now, would you please tell the Chamber your view on
24 whether the HVO in fact followed through with that agreement.
25 A. I have to say that it had not. They were claiming that they were
1 not in town, but they were in the immediate vicinity, with all their
3 Q. To your observation as an inhabitant, someone who lived in Mostar
4 at that time, to your knowledge, did the HVO in fact, for instance, remove
5 their weapons from a place called Bijeli Brijeg?
6 A. No. Nothing was, in fact, removed. This was just a cooking
7 company, as far as I was told.
8 Q. And how about a feature called Hum? Were the Croat positions
9 removed from that feature?
10 A. No. They didn't move anywhere. They remained where they were.
11 Q. And the final question on that point: And these snipers, these
12 Croat snipers that you mentioned a few minutes ago, to your knowledge,
13 were those positions removed?
14 A. They were not, because I passed by, and I knew that they shot from
15 those positions at definite targets. There was a flower pot in my window,
16 it was hit, so I know for certain that they were shooting from those
17 positions. Why, I don't know.
18 Q. Now, one final question before moving to the main part of your
19 testimony. Can you tell the Chamber, do you recall -- there was an
20 officer of the Spanish Battalion, the Spanish contingent of UNPROFOR in
21 the Mostar area at that time. Do you recall that one of their officers
22 was killed around early May?
23 A. Yes. I think it was the beginning of May. I can't remember the
24 exact date. He was killed maybe by mistake by the HVO. And I found it
25 strange that such a grandiose funeral was sustained for him in Medjugorje.
1 Q. And who promoted -- well, strike that. Who organised this mass
2 for the Spanish officer in Medjugorje?
3 A. I think the Catholic church from Herzegovina.
4 Q. And do you recall, sir, that that mass was conducted on the 8th of
6 A. No. I think that was later.
7 Q. Very well. All right. Now, directing your attention to, in fact,
8 the 8th of May - and with counsel's permission, there may be some few
9 additional leading up questions that are not too critical - on the 8th of
10 May, 1993, were you on your way to one of your sisters' apartments in
11 Mostar to spend the night there?
12 A. Yes. (redacted)
15 Q. All right. Now, in light of the testimony you made just a few
16 minutes ago, let me just clarify this, if I can. The bulk of the ABiH
17 forces at this time had withdrawn to the southern barracks, but I think
18 you said a small group had remained in this Vranica building; is that
20 A. Yes. The bulk of the BH army was withdrawn to the southern
21 barracks, southeastern part of Mostar, actually. A small group of some 12
22 soldiers, I think, remained at the command post of the BH army, which used
23 to be the command post, and quite a number of soldiers of the BH army were
24 at home with their weapons. I don't know exactly how many men there were,
25 but they were in their apartments on the west side of the town.
1 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Mr. Krsnik.
2 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I apologise, Mr. Scott. And thank
3 you, Mr. Fourmy, for giving me the floor.
4 Actually, as Mr. Scott had noted, we did not object at all
5 yesterday, though the whole examination was leading. Today you also
6 started out with leading questions, but you said with our permission that
7 you would be putting leading questions, but I see that more or less all of
8 the questions are leading.
9 I will not object any further. We are both professionals. We
10 know exactly what are leading questions, and we know how such leading
11 questions are assessed. So I appeal to you to make as few leading
12 questions as possible so as to avoid any interruptions on my part. Thank
14 MR. SCOTT: Mr. Fourmy, without belabouring the matter, let me
15 respond very quickly in two ways. It is correct that certainly some of my
16 questions up to this point have been leading on background matters; where
17 the witness was born, et cetera. Many of my questions, in fact, have not
18 been leading questions at all. They have been open-ended questions in
19 which this witness has provided a narrative response. So I object to
21 Certainly counsel can always object to a particular, and it is at
22 this juncture that I'm -- now that we're getting to the central part of
23 the testimony, I do intend to move to a different approach.
24 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] I think in doing so, the Defence will
25 be pleased. So please continue.
1 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. Fourmy.
2 Q. Now, on that evening of the 8th of May, you were then going to
3 your sister's apartment, and where we left off was, did your sister
4 live -- having these additional questions about the BH command offices,
5 were those offices located in the same building where your sister lived?
6 A. Yes --
21 [Private session]
7 [Open session]
8 Q. So on your way to that building on the 8th of May, did you have an
9 encounter with anyone that evening in which some information was conveyed
10 to you?
11 A. I met an acquaintance who told me, using these words, "Hurry
12 home. Don't you know that there's going to be an attack this evening?"
13 It was a lady. And I can't say that I laughed, but I didn't really
14 believe her. I didn't believe that would be possible.
15 Q. All right. And what did you do -- perhaps we should pause for a
17 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Excuse me, Mr. Prosecutor. I think
18 we've resolved our little difference.
19 Please forgive us for this interruption, Mr. Scott. Please
20 continue, if you will.
21 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. Fourmy.
22 Q. All right. So you have this encounter. I'm not going to go back
23 over it; I think it's clear. What did you do after that?
24 A. (redacted)
1 Q. If we can redact the one -- the word -- sorry.
2 THE INTERPRETER: I didn't interpret.
3 MR. SCOTT: Thank you.
4 Q. You went on to the apartment, and did you -- I think to move us
5 past this point, if I may be allowed, you went to bed and went to sleep
6 without anything further happening that evening; is that right? All
7 right. What happened next?
8 A. I was awakened by a terrible explosion which, I must say, caused
9 panic, and I was shocked because I didn't know where it came from and what
10 was being attacked. I jumped out into the corridor, and I saw that the
11 window in the corridor facing the Bijeli Brijeg stadium had fallen out,
12 together with its frame and the pane in the corridor. From then on, the
13 shooting didn't stop. I can't say what calibre weapons were used because
14 there was a variety, a wide variety of calibre.
15 I went out into the staircase, and I came across some men who were
16 in a terrible state of panic. I saw a soldier of the army who was running
17 up the steps, calling out women and children and civilians to go to the
18 basement, to the shelter.
19 Q. And approximately what time --
20 A. That's it.
21 Q. Approximately what time, if you can recall, were you awoken,
22 awakened, by this explosion?
23 A. I think it was 5.00 in the morning. It was just about dawn.
24 Q. And can you tell us, generally speaking, about approximately how
25 many people lived in this building or, at least, appeared to be present in
1 the building at that time?
2 A. The building has three entrances on the eastern side in the yard,
3 so there may have been a total of 200 men. In my entrance, there may have
4 been about a hundred. I can't tell you exactly.
5 Q. Now. I want to -- to avoid any confusion, you just said 200 men.
6 Were you talking about just men or all the people living in the building?
7 A. No. These were family apartments inhabited by entire families
8 with small children and the elderly. Mostly civilians.
9 Q. And can you tell the Chamber what was the ethnic makeup of this
10 building, of the inhabitants of the building?
11 A. As the population of Mostar was mixed so were the inhabitants of
12 this building. There were Serbs, Croats, Bosniaks. Probably
13 representatives of other ethnic groups, too.
14 Q. Now, you said a few moments ago that there was a call for the
15 women and children to go into the basement of the building as a shelter;
16 is that correct?
17 A. Yes, correct.
18 Q. And did you at some point yourself around that -- sometime shortly
19 after that go to the basement?
20 A. I didn't. I went back to the apartment. I made some coffee for
21 these people, two men and a woman who were outside in the stairway, and we
22 sat down for a while to collect ourselves.
23 I didn't go to the basement. I went down a couple of times, but I
24 can't say that I stayed there for longer than two hours on the outside
25 throughout those two days, when all is added up.
1 Q. All right. Can you just tell us briefly, on the occasions when
2 you did go down to the basement even for a short time, what did you see?
3 What was happening there?
4 A. Well, I can't say that there was panic, but those people were
5 terribly frightened and worried. Everybody was pale. Nobody had had
6 enough sleep. Some children were crying. Other people were talking,
7 trying to somehow overcome the fear. But this fire, this shooting, was
8 going on, was going on all this time.
9 Q. Now, did you come to know approximately how many ABiH soldiers
10 were in the building at that time?
11 A. I think there were 12 soldiers and some men who worked for Radio
12 Mostar, so I say there could have been 18 altogether. That includes, as I
13 said, radio people.
14 Q. And do you recall, was there a particular person who was acting,
15 if you will, as the commander of those people who -- those soldiers who,
16 at least, were in the building at that time?
17 A. I remember a man, everybody I think called him Rudi. I knew him
18 from before; that is, I used to see him around, and I believe he is a
19 Croat person from Bosnia. I'm not sure, but I think so. I would
20 recognise him if I saw him. He was at that moment a commander at the
21 command post of the BH army.
22 Q. All right, and I think you answered what was my next question.
23 What ethnicity was this Rudi?
24 A. He was a Croat.
25 Q. Can you remember how the ABiH soldiers in the building were armed
1 at that time? What were they fighting with?
2 A. Rifles and nothing except rifles. Automatic rifles, I mean. I
3 wouldn't know exactly which ones.
4 Q. Did you observe -- during the two days of this attack, did you
5 observe that the ABiH forces had any weapons heavier or more substantial
6 than infantry rifles?
7 A. I didn't see anything else except the rifles. Well, there were
8 some pistols, perhaps two or three pistols, but otherwise, nothing heavier
9 than rifles.
10 Q. Now, turning, then, to the next day, and is it correct, sir -- I
11 don't know. We were talking about the evening of the 8th, and I suppose
12 it follows, but out of an abundance of caution, is it correct that the
13 first part of attack as you've been describing it for the last few
14 minutes, that occurred on the 9th of May?
15 A. That's right. The attack, in point of fact, started at 5.00 on
16 the 9th of May, 1993.
17 Q. All right. I'm sorry if that was already clear, but just to be
19 The next day, then, turning to the 10th of May, what happened on
20 that day?
21 A. The 10th of May, what happened was that -- now, I don't know if it
22 was a mortar shell or perhaps a hand-grenade, but the wall of the cellar
23 of the basement was opened, and then the members of the BH army retreated
24 up the stairs. They were afraid that the forces of the HVO might get in.
25 The attack became more intensive. Some flats were set on fire
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
13 and the English transcripts.
1 because nitroglycerin bullets were used, and they were fired from the yard
2 of the economic school on the west side of the building.
3 And then there were some negotiations between the attackers and
4 the defence, and there members of the HVO objected that the BH army was
5 keeping those civilians as hostages. I was present in the cellar at that
6 time when the present civilians were asked to say -- or rather, Rudi had
7 told them that they could leave the basement whenever they liked. And
8 they didn't want to, they wanted to stay together with their men. They
9 wanted to stay together.
10 In the afternoon hours -- or perhaps I'm becoming too talkative,
11 sorry. Should I continue or --
12 Q. Not too talkative, but before you continue on, let me go back to
13 one other question. Did you observe -- apart from the fighting that was
14 happening in and around that building itself, did you observe anything
15 else happening in Mostar around that day, on 10th of May?
16 A. I think there was an all-out attack by the HVO on the positions of
17 the BH army. One could hear them. One could hear -- one could understand
18 by the sound of all the fire from different parts of the town, and also we
19 had a radio so we could also listen to that radio. That radio was on
20 the -- in the east part of the town.
21 Q. Can you tell the Chamber whether you saw any civilians being moved
22 around the town on the 10th of May?
23 A. Well, I saw a group of civilians whom the HVO -- whom HVO members
24 were taking towards the stadium at Bijeli Brijeg, that is, to the Velez
25 stadium. I'd say it was a group of some 120 people.
1 Q. All right. Witness E, we had gotten to the point where there was
2 some concern about whether the civilians wanted to leave the building, and
3 at that point the civilians were saying that they still wanted to stay in
4 the building, correct, at that moment?
5 A. Correct. And this radio journalist, she asked people and they
6 said that. And they even protested very, very loudly against being asked
7 to leave the building.
8 Q. All right. And what happened after that?
9 A. Well, I think this was the crucial moment. When the defence
10 effort weakened was when this wall of the basement was destroyed, and then
11 members of the BH army and the attackers began negotiations. I believe
12 Juka Prazina also took part in those negotiations, about how the civilians
13 should withdraw to the third floor because otherwise, they would destroy
14 flats. And at some point I heard that, that they would put a cistern
15 [Realtime transcript read in error "system"] with 20 tonnes of explosives,
16 that they would put it in front -- below the building. Now, whether it
17 was just a threat or an intention, I cannot say that, but I could conclude
18 that this was one of the options in the negotiations. And when those
19 civilians, when women and there were children -- with small children were
20 there, then they asked the BH army to surrender. That is what they did.
21 Q. Witness E, with my apology, and I'm only judging this by the speed
22 of interpretation, but if you could speak just a bit more slowly, it might
23 assist, please.
24 A. I'm very sorry. My apologies.
25 Q. Now, you said a moment ago, I think, that there was then some
1 indication from the Croat side that they would bring some sort of a
2 cistern, a tank, to the building. Can you just explain that further?
3 MR. SCOTT: It's been translated -- Mr. Fourmy, in line 13 it was
4 "system, put a system with 20 tonnes of explosives," but I'm asking the
5 witness if he can help us clarify that a bit.
6 Q. What were they -- did you hear the HVO was going to bring to the
7 building and do?
8 A. A cistern, a tanker.
9 Q. And tanker of what?
10 A. Well, I'm not sure. I think it must have been a tanker for some
11 liquid. I'd seen such a tanker parked on the avenue, and I could assume
12 that it was the tanker for liquid fuel or something. But what I can say
13 is that the defenders of the building were threatened that the building
14 would be blown up, until they accepted the terms, with 20 tonnes of
16 Q. All right. And is that then when negotiations started, if you
17 will, about the surrender of the people in the building?
18 A. Yes. Then negotiations then started about the surrender, and that
19 is about how the building would be evacuated.
20 Q. You said a moment ago that one of the -- the person who seemed to
21 be in charge or conducting the negotiations for the HVO side was someone
22 named Juka Prazina; is that correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And I believe you said that this was a man that you knew of
25 before. I'm not suggesting you were necessarily friends, but you knew of
1 him or had known him before; is that correct?
2 A. Yes, I knew Juka. I knew Juka. As a matter of fact, I saw him
3 twice before the Vranica building was attacked. I met him. That is, I
4 saw him once when he caused an incident in front of the BH army command,
5 when he threw a hand-grenade into a container in the yard because of some
6 misunderstanding with members of the security of the BH army command. And
7 after that, a group of members of the BH army had organised a celebration
8 and Juka Prazina took part in that. And I was present there with my
9 orchestra. We were playing there at that celebration, at that party.
10 MR. SCOTT: Mr. Fourmy, I'm looking at the clock, but if I can ask
11 one or two more questions, I think it will be a convenient place to stop.
12 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Yes, please do.
13 MR. SCOTT:
14 Q. So when you, so when you saw this man -- strike that.
15 So when you became involved or were observing the negotiations
16 taking place involving someone we refer to as Juka, again, this is
17 somebody you already knew; correct?
18 A. That's right.
19 Q. And my final question before the break is: Can you just tell the
20 Chamber what role did you see Juka playing through these events? What was
21 his role or position appear to you to be as these events unfolded?
22 A. He commanded that group which attacked the command post of the
23 army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
24 MR. SCOTT: Mr. Fourmy, I think that's a good place to break, if
25 you agree.
1 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Yes. It is indeed half past twelve.
2 Witness, we shall make a break of one hour and a half, and we shall be
3 back here at 2.00. Thank you.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
5 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] We shall be back here at 2.00. The
6 session is adjourned.
7 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.30 p.m.
1 --- On resuming at 2.02 p.m.
2 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] This session is resumed. Please be
4 Usher, will you please bring the witness in.
5 Mr. Prosecutor, while we're waiting for the witness, may I take
6 the liberty to share with you a certain concern regarding the schedule.
7 MR. SCOTT: Yes.
8 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Should we be able to observe the
9 schedule envisaged for this week? And could you at least give us some
10 indication as to how much more time will you need for your direct
11 examination of this witness, because you also have the cross-examination.
12 MR. SCOTT: Yes.
13 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] The Defence will be cross-examining
14 the witness.
15 Witness, I hope you had some rest at least. The Prosecutor will
16 continue his examination, then it will be the turn of the Defence. I
17 should like to ask the usher to switch on the second microphone, and can
18 you please try to articulate before when you speak because these
19 microphones help the interpreters to tell us what you are saying.
20 Unfortunately, I do not speak your language. I have to go through
21 interpreters, and it's very important that all you say is well
22 understood. Thank you very much.
23 Yes, Prosecutor.
24 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. Fourmy. And I will address, perhaps, a
25 bit later the concerns -- questions that you just addressed to me.
1 Q. Witness E, we left off before the lunch break with the
2 negotiations between the -- those in the building, let me put it that way,
3 and Juka about the surrender of the people in the building.
4 Now, before we move past that, and I apologise, I didn't have a
5 chance to look back in the transcript, so if I'm repeating something, my
6 apology, but was there someone on the side of the building, the people in
7 the building, that emerged as the negotiator around this time with
8 Mr. Juka?
9 A. Yes. It was the former goalkeeper of the Yugoslav football
10 representation, Enver Maric, who assumed the role of a negotiator even
11 though all -- not all that well.
12 Q. And as a result of these negotiations, an agreement was reached by
13 which the occupants of the building would surrender; is that correct?
14 A. Yes, it is correct. The whole surrender procedure was
15 established, that is, a white flag in front of the column and the column
16 of inhabitants was to go down the stairs from the third floor, that is, to
17 go through a corridor in the Stjepan Radic street next to the building
18 which had been the object of the attack, into the yard of the economic
19 school, and to enter the yard of the economic school from the street
20 called Avenija, the avenue.
21 Q. All right. Now, once you reached the courtyard of the economic
22 school, were you met by anyone at that location, a leader from the HVO
23 side? And I'm talking about the economics courtyard, not -- the school
24 courtyard, not another location.
25 A. Well, when we passed by the economic school, I saw uniformed
1 members of the HVO, and when we entered this yard from the other side,
2 from the street called Avenija, I met Juka -- I came across Juka Prazina,
3 who was coordinating the attack, and another HVO soldier. If you insist,
4 I can give you his name.
5 Q. No, that's fine. Now, did anything more happen to the group at
6 that time, and that is, was this group of people who had exited the
7 building, were you divided up into any different groups, or what happened
9 A. Inside the building, they kept members of the staff of Radio
10 Mostar. Those were some women and -- young women.
11 Outside the building, they said the Croats were free to go home.
12 We were told, that is, when they thought that somebody was militarily
13 able, one of the men, those were told to make up a column on the
14 right-hand side. Then Juka approached me and asked me if I lived in that
15 building. I said I didn't. And then he pointed with his finger to
16 join -- for me to join the column that was marked as the army of
18 Q. All right. So as a result of this process, essentially Juka told
19 you -- put you into the group of the people who were believed to be or
20 alleged to be ABiH soldiers; is that correct?
21 A. It is, yes. I had to join that group.
22 Q. And just for the record, sir, were you on that day, in fact, an
23 ABiH soldier?
24 A. No, no, no. I wasn't, no.
25 Q. All right. Now, can you tell the Chamber, please, about the time
1 that this was happening, did you notice that there was -- a Croatian TV
2 crew from Zagreb had appeared?
3 A. That's right. It was a TV team of the Croatian radio-television.
4 I believe they were making some recordings for a programme called With
5 Picture to Picture or Picture to Picture, because I had seen that
7 Q. And did anything happen after that? Was anything done in front of
8 the camera at that moment that came to your attention?
9 A. A member of the BH army stepped -- there was a member of the BH
10 army who was carrying the portrait of a current commander of the BH army,
11 and he was asked to allow it to be taken, a photograph with that
13 Q. All right. Now, Witness E, before we get to that, let me take you
14 back perhaps a few minutes before that. Do you remember any foods,
15 biscuits or cookies being given out around this time?
16 A. Well, a box had been brought with some biscuits and chocolate and
17 a few bottles of some refreshing drinks, and these were distributed among
18 some women and children.
19 Q. Can you tell the Chamber whether that was done in front of the
20 Croatian TV camera?
21 A. Well, in my view, it was done for purely propaganda reasons.
22 Q. Did any of that kind of conduct, the giving out of food or
23 chocolate to the women or children, did that continue once the camera was
24 removed, once the camera team was no longer filming?
25 A. As soon as the TV crew stopped recording, the situation changed,
1 that is, the reality set in.
2 Q. All right. Now, around this time -- you were telling me about
3 this photograph of someone who was -- a Mr. Rahimic was asked to hold or
4 something and that's when I interrupted you once before. Would you tell
5 us about that.
6 A. Yes, with pleasure. The commander of a group taking the command
7 of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, Juka Prazina, wanted to enter the
8 command, the basement, but he wasn't sure if it had been mined or not.
9 And he threatened us that if anything happened to his soldiers who was
10 about to go into the basement, that we'd all be shot dead, executed on the
12 After a while, this soldier, a member of the HVO, came back
13 carrying in his hands the portrait of the current -- of the then-commander
14 of Bosnia and Herzegovina army, and he gave this portrait to Juka, to
15 Jusuf Prazina, and he gave it to Mr. Rahimic, to Mirsad Rahimic, and he
16 had to stand in front of the cameras of the Croatian television so that he
17 could be recorded as a man carrying the portrait of the commander who had
18 just been captured there.
19 Q. And for the record, who was the then-overall head of the ABiH
20 forces, the man whose picture was taken? The man whose picture was not
21 taken by the film crew - excuse me - but the man whose picture was taken
22 out of office.
23 A. It was Sefer Halilovic.
24 Q. And after this Mr. Rahimic had been filmed by the Croatian film
25 crew, holding this picture, did anything happen to Mr. Rahimic after the
1 TV crew left?
2 A. Well, no. Rahimic was made to rejoin the column.
3 Q. All right. And around this time, were you threatened to be
4 killed, and if so, can you tell us what happened?
5 A. So I was standing with that column, and right opposite me, with a
6 cocked rifle, there was a soldier of the HVO who ran up to me, saying that
7 his friend Pero had got killed and that he'd kill me right there and
8 then. And then Jusuf reacted, Juka reacted. He hit him and said, "You
9 leave the armija alone."
10 Q. All right. Now, were the group of you then taken someplace else,
11 from the courtyard of the economic school to another location?
12 A. Well, about 30 of us, I'd say, were taken towards the tobacco
13 institute, a building south of the economic school building, about 500
14 metres down.
15 Q. And did you have any understanding at that time as to what was,
16 what was located at the tobacco institute or why you were being taken to
17 that particular location?
18 A. At that time, the tobacco institute housed some -- well, I can't
19 really say exactly because I wouldn't know the exact rank, the exact
20 level, but they -- it housed some kind of command of the Croat Defence
22 Q. The HVO?
23 A. Yes, yes.
24 Q. And what happened once the group of you reached the tobacco
1 A. We were turned over, that is, Juka turned us over to Mr. Mladen
2 Naletilic, Tuta.
3 Q. All right. Now, let's take that in steps. What did you observe?
4 Where were you taken there? Was it into another type of courtyard or what
5 location in connection with the tobacco institute were you actually taken
7 A. We were in the immediate neighbourhood of that building which
8 housed some HVO command and some 30 metres to the north in the street
9 leading up to that structure.
10 Q. All right. Now, you said Juka then turned the group over to Tuta.
11 Just tell us what you saw and how that was carried out. What actually
13 A. Juka was in a very good mood after the successful operation, the
14 attack on the command, and as he was taking us in, he sang and fired into
15 the air. A few soldiers at the rear of the column, members of the Croat
16 Defence Council, the HVO, were swearing and pushing us a little so that
17 those who were in the rear, at the very back, stumbled and fell.
18 As we reached the tobacco institute, Mr. Naletilic threatened -- I
19 believe that young man's name was Zekic. He threatened that he would be
20 killed and that the rest would be exchanged, either in Sikori Brijeg,
21 Ljubuski, or Lisica, I wouldn't know.
22 Q. What did Juka himself do upon arriving at this location where you
23 saw Tuta?
24 A. Oh, what I can say that he immediately assumed a passive or an
25 auxiliary role. Quite simply, he also examined a man here and there,
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
13 and the English transcripts.
1 inspecting paper, personal papers and so on.
2 Q. Well, what did you observe about Juka's attitude and behaviour
3 toward Tuta when the two of them were together?
4 A. He was subordinated to him, absolutely.
5 Q. All right. Now, let's go back to this incident with this
6 individual Zekic. Now, what did you see Tuta do concerning Mr. Zekic?
7 A. Well, he came from the back and showed that he had been killed by
8 a burst of fire in the shape of a cross, but then Mr. Naletilic's escorts
9 ran up and beat him up.
10 Q. And did you see any other similar circumstances occur around that
11 time? Was this, was this -- I'm sorry. Did this appear to you to be a
12 pattern of conduct?
13 A. Well, my impression was that if somebody was marked by
14 Mr. Naletilic in one way or the other, perhaps addressed him -- did not
15 address him politely or reacted or -- address him impolitely or perhaps
16 strike him, then others from those ranks would join in.
17 Q. Join in what?
18 A. Well, how shall I say? In a physical assault on that individual.
19 Q. All right. Sorry. In looking -- I'm just looking at the
20 transcript of your answer, Witness E. The problem -- which -- who --
21 which would join in? Who would join who? It's not clear, I'm sorry, but
22 who would join who in mistreating the individual?
23 A. Well, if Mr. Naletilic has marked somebody with a blow or
24 something, there would be the attack on a person belonging to the army of
25 Bosnia-Herzegovina. So for instance, this Naletilic's threat to Mr. Zekic
1 was a sign for his escorts to beat up that man, and that is what they did,
2 using their fists and their rifle butts.
3 Q. All right. Now, did you say a similar situation -- a similar
4 thing occur with a man named Zilic?
5 A. Zilic was taken out of the line as a man who had assumed the
6 command in the Vranica building. Mr. Naletilic hit him, first at his
7 genitals with his hand, and then with the fist he dealt him a blow in his
8 face. And that men, again men from Tuta's escort, ill-treated.
9 Q. Now, at some point along the way, did -- I'm trying to speed up
10 just a bit. Did Juka communicate to Tuta, to your knowledge, did you
11 learn, that you should be released?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And what happened?
14 A. I was in a very -- I was in a predicament. I thought I was in a
15 very bad predicament, because I had an identity document, that is, a paper
16 which showed that I was a member of the Preporod cultural society. So I
17 showed it to Juka and he said to hide it. And I put that membership card
18 in the pocket of my shirt, and then Juka went to Tuta and said that there
19 were some people who ought to be released.
20 Q. And what happened after that?
21 A. And then Mr. Naletilic came up to me and indicated with his head
22 that I should tell him what I have to say, and then I said that he -- that
23 I was sure he remembered me, because I used to play in a band with
24 Mr. Kreso Sunjic. And then Mr. Naletilic took me by the hand to a parked
25 car, asked for a piece -- asked me to give him a piece of paper and a pen,
1 and I just happened to have these things that he asked for. So I passed
2 them on to him, and he wrote on that -- that I should be allowed to move
3 freely, that I would have free passage.
4 MR. SCOTT: With the usher's assistance and also the Registry's
5 assistance, if the witness could be provided what has been marked as
6 Exhibit P54 from the binder that's been provided. And counsel will have
7 it now. And Mr. Fourmy, it should be in your binder. P54. In fact, it
8 should be shown to the witness and put on the ELMO, please.
9 If I could just have a moment. Let me just check one thing,
10 Mr. Fourmy, before --
11 THE REGISTRAR: Is this a confidential document?
12 MR. SCOTT: This is one of the things I'm checking right now, so
13 if we could hold just for a moment.
14 Yes. I'm afraid it will have to be sealed because it will
15 identify the witness.
16 Q. So what I'm going to do, Witness E -- thank you very much both to
17 Mr. Stringer and to the Registry for alerting me.
18 What I'm going to do, Witness E, is I'm going to have that
19 document shown to you. We're not going to put it on the ELMO, but I just
20 want you to look at it. Don't say anything about the name that's on the
21 face of the document, but just look at it for a moment. You have it there
23 A. Yes, I do.
24 Q. All right. Is that the document that Tuta gave you at the time
25 that you were just telling us about a few minutes ago?
1 A. Yes. That is, this is a copy of this document.
2 Q. Now, can you tell me, please, did you see Tuta write that --
3 actually write that document in front of you and did you see him sign his
4 signature in your presence?
5 A. Yes.
6 MR. SCOTT: Mr. Usher, could I have your assistance, please? If
7 you could retrieve that document. My copy doesn't have -- is missing one
8 part. My apologies.
9 My apologies. What I'll represent to the Court, in the interests
10 of time, is that another part of that document shows on the back of it,
11 consistent with the witness's testimony, that this document was written,
12 this release was written on the back of a piece of paper that had other
13 text on the other side. And my apologies, it seems not to have found its
14 way into the binder.
15 Q. Now, again, sir, without mentioning any of the names on there, and
16 I apologise for the bit of commotion, that is the release paper -- release
17 that says -- do I read it correctly? That says: "Release the gentleman,
18 free passage," signed, "Tuta"?
19 A. Yes, that's right.
20 Q. Now, Witness E, if you're able to do this without feeling
21 uncomfortable, I would like for you, please, to look around the courtroom
22 today and tell me, is the man that you say that day, that you described in
23 your testimony in the last few minutes, is that man and the man who gave
24 you this release, is that man in the courtroom?
25 A. He is.
1 Q. And for the record, can you briefly describe where this person --
2 just, for instance, how they're dressed today, physical appearance?
3 A. Now you mean?
4 Q. Yes.
5 A. He has a grey suit, a blue shirt, a tie which is grey and blue.
6 His hair is grey. Wearing glasses, a beard, and laughing right now.
7 MR. SCOTT: Mr. Fourmy, if the record can please show the witness
8 identified the accused, Mr. Naletilic.
9 Q. And as a result of all this, Witness E, were you, in fact,
10 released at that time?
11 A. Yes. I was allowed to go.
12 Q. And is it correct, sir, that you then remained in the Mostar area
13 until approximately mid-June of 1993 and then you left the country of
15 A. That is right.
16 Q. During the time that you were at the tobacco institute, did you
17 hear any of the HVO soldiers address Tuta?
18 A. Yes. They addressed him with "Mr. General."
19 Q. Thank you, Witness E.
20 MR. SCOTT: No further questions.
21 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you. Yes, the Defence.
22 Mr. Krsnik? Yes, Mr. Krsnik, your cross-examination.
23 Cross-examined by Mr. Krsnik:
24 Q. Good afternoon, Witness. Let me introduce myself. My name is
25 Kresimir Krsnik. I am Defence counsel for Mr. Naletilic. I will put to
1 you certain questions, and I kindly ask you to cooperate by answering in
2 keeping with the oath you gave before this Court.
3 Will you please tell me --
4 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Excuse me, Mr. Fourmy. Are we still
5 in private session?
6 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] No. We are in public session. If
7 you want to put precise questions, we can go back into private session, if
8 you like.
9 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Then, Mr. Fourmy, I will alert you
10 when I come to questions which require a private session to facilitate our
12 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you.
13 A. I will be responsive to your questions.
14 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Thank you. Since I have to protect your identity and I have to
16 concentrate on the questions, I think these questions will not reveal your
17 identity. What is your occupation or, rather, what was your occupation in
18 1991, 1992, 1993? Were you employed at all in those years?
19 A. In 1992 and 1993 I didn't work anywhere. In 1991, I worked in a
20 factory which produces military equipment, in fact, aircraft and
22 Q. And what is your profession?
23 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Mr. Fourmy, I believe this still
24 cannot reveal the witness's identity, but if you believe this, we are
25 entering into the category of questions which might perhaps jeopardise
1 identity, maybe we can go into private session right now, and then I can
2 continue with my question, if the Prosecutor agrees.
3 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. Krsnik.
4 I think so, Mr. Fourmy. There comes a time when a certain
5 combination of facts tends to become identifying. Thank you.
6 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you for proposing this.
7 Shall we go into private session, Madam Registrar.
8 [Private session]
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12 Page 1023 redacted, private session.
19 [Open session]
20 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Fourmy.
21 Q. I asked you a moment ago whether this knowledge you gained was
22 hearsay, meetings with your friends, chitchat from hallways, or did you
23 gain some firsthand knowledge? I'm just quoting the answers you gave to
24 my colleague. Can I conclude that it's correct what you're saying?
25 A. Can you ask your question, please?
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
13 and the English transcripts.
1 Q. The better part of your knowledge, is it hearsay, chitchat from
2 corridors, socialising in restaurants with friends, acquaintances?
3 A. I would prefer a specific question. Could you ask me about a
4 specific event, whether I attended or not, and I will answer you.
5 Q. I asked you a very specific question. I'm just following your
6 answers you gave to my learned friend, and you answered his questions by
7 saying, "I was informed," "I knew," et cetera. In order to avoid asking
8 you, "How do you know?" I asked you this question. I asked you a very
9 broad question, but it is still specific.
10 A. Can you please target a specific event and ask me how I heard
11 about it and how I was informed? I will gladly answer any specific
12 question you put to me about a specific event. Whether I heard from --
13 about it from radio, television, from hearsay, or whether I got firsthand
14 knowledge of it.
15 Q. Here is a very specific question: What was the Mostar assembly,
16 and did you attend it personally?
17 A. I did not attend the Mostar assembly, and I don't know what it
19 Q. It's your expression, one that you used, if I'm not mistaken,
20 because the Mostar assembly was the -- at the Mostar assembly, HVO was
21 entrusted with the defence of the city of Mostar.
22 A. I saw a document in which the parliamentary assembly of the city
23 of Mostar, including representatives of legitimate and legal political
24 parties, signed that they leave the defence of Mostar to the Croatian
25 Defence Council.
1 Q. You did not attend that assembly?
2 A. No, but I saw the document.
3 Q. Who participated? Who attended this assembly?
4 Okay, let's do it through shorter questions. This assembly, was
5 it attended by representatives of parties, I mean, the SDA and the HDZ?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. In this -- in these documents, did you see that a signatory of
8 that document was Alija Izetbegovic?
9 A. No. He was not a member of the parliament of the city of Mostar.
10 Q. And was he the head of the Party of Democratic Action or the SDA?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Was he superior to the city of Mostar?
13 A. I don't know who you mean.
14 Q. I mean the SDA of Mostar.
15 A. I didn't understand who was superior to whom.
16 Q. Alija Izetbegovic is the chief of that party.
17 A. I don't know.
18 Q. Who as representative of the SDA signed this agreement?
19 A. Dr. Ismet Hadziosmanovic.
20 Q. At that time, was it agreed -- was the parity of national
21 composition agreed? Or let me clarify this. Was equal representation
22 agreed of the Croatian and Muslim ethnicities in the Croatian army?
23 A. To be honest, I don't remember. I don't think equal
24 representation was one of the issues, but there was a clause which said
25 that Muslims were also free to establish their own units which would be
1 subordinated to the Croatian Defence Council.
2 Q. And those Muslim units, were they known as MOS?
3 A. No. It was Mostar Territorial Defence.
4 Q. And when was the first Mostar Brigade formed? If you know, of
6 A. I can't remember the date, really, but I think it was later May or
7 early June 1992.
8 Q. The 1st Mostar Brigade, did it eventually grow into the 4th Corps?
9 A. I believe so.
10 Q. And about the events that we're talking about, did at that time
11 the 4th Corps exist?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Do you know who was Jasmin Jaganjac's deputy?
14 A. I can't remember.
15 Q. When the Territorial Defence was renamed as the army of
17 A. I think it was that same May or late May and early June. I
18 wouldn't really know, but I think that the orders had come from the
19 president of Bosnia-Herzegovina -- presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina, Alija
21 Q. And that agreement -- you see, I am not asking you any leading
22 questions. Did the HVO become the regular force of Bosnia-Herzegovina by
23 virtue of that agreement, known as the government forces, in vernacular?
24 A. Yes, you could say so.
25 Q. So could we agree that the HVO was a regular army equal with the
1 army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, playing an equal role in the defence of
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And Bosniaks, people of Bosniak ethnicity -- of course I am more
5 familiar with the situation on the ground than my learned friend, so I say
6 Bosniak ethnicity, not Muslim ethnicity. So people of Bosniak ethnicity
7 who were in the HVO, did they have to take an oath?
8 A. I really don't know that. I think they did, but I, I was never
10 Q. I'm asking you because you said that you had an HVO membership
11 card, so I thought that perhaps -- you see how I'm taking --
12 A. No, I never took any oath, either in the army or the HVO.
13 Q. Where did you get this HVO card from?
14 A. By the decision of the leadership of the HVO, the Muslim cultural
15 society Preporod became an integral part -- at least that is how I
16 understood, it became an integral part of the Croat Defence Council, that
17 is, it is the department responsible for cultural activities.
18 Q. Could you -- one call it art forces?
19 A. Yes, that's right. That's what its name was.
20 Q. Were there any other Bosniaks in the HVO?
21 A. Yes, of course there were.
22 Q. Did you stage any theatre performances?
23 A. I didn't.
24 Q. No. I mean the art forces.
25 A. Yes, the art forces did.
1 Q. Until when, if you remember?
2 A. I really don't, but I think sometime in the war. Perhaps even
3 until the autumn of 1993 -- no, I'm not really sure. I don't know.
4 Q. As I understand, you don't know, because you left, after all.
5 A. That's right.
6 Q. Tell me, were there any arguments, any friction within the SDA
7 because of this togetherness with the HVO and whether, because of this
8 friction -- no. I'm asking you, perhaps you will know better, are you a
9 member of the SDA? Were you?
10 A. No, I wasn't.
11 Q. So, in view of -- this togetherness brought about certain
12 arguments and then led to a split, to a schism in the Mostar SDA. Do you
13 know anything about that?
14 A. No, I don't.
15 Q. Did it have to do with the SDA order that Bosniaks should leave
16 their workplaces, well, say on the west side or where Croats were the
17 majority, and they should therefore align with the majority Muslim parts?
18 A. I never heard of any such order, nor did anyone ever tell me about
19 such an order.
20 Q. Then why did this split take place? Was there a group which
21 wanted the togetherness with the HVO and a group, I mean within the SDA,
22 which was against such togetherness?
23 A. Well, I see these things in a somewhat different light, I mean,
24 this split. I think it was due to the struggle for a better position
25 between individual members; that is, I think that these conflicts were of
1 a highly personal nature.
2 Q. You mean for personal gain?
3 A. That's what I think.
4 Q. Who will be a minister?
5 A. That's exactly it.
6 Q. And so it was the personal gain which then led to the split?
7 A. In the SDA, in the party SDA.
8 Q. In the Mostar SDA?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. So am I concluding rightly that then part of the Bosniaks who were
11 in the SDA stayed and joined the Croats? Do you know how many Bosniak
12 Ministers there were in the Mostar region or, rather, West Herzegovina,
13 throughout? Do you know?
14 A. No, I don't know exactly.
15 Q. Oh, you don't know.
16 A. I know there was some, but the number, I really don't.
17 Q. Fine, fine, fine. Never mind.
18 A. I also some -- personally know some people.
19 Q. Right. All right. Never mind. Did you ever read the Islamic
21 A. I heard about it. I never read it.
22 Q. Now, in view of the split in the SDA, was -- were there some
23 advocates -- were their some partisans of a national army? I'm referring
24 to the one between the -- the split between the HVO and the BH army. Do
25 you know anything about that?
1 A. As far as I was aware of the situation, it was -- it never came
2 from the Bosniak side.
3 Q. But I'm asking you about the Bosniak side.
4 A. I do not think that the Bosniak side ever initiated -- ever
5 suggested such an idea to set up a mono -- mono-ethnic multi-ethnic armies
6 or anything like that.
7 Q. Yes. Well, I've got my answer. Right. Since you are so
8 conversant, did you know about the Vance-Owen Plan?
9 A. There were very many plans. You must know that.
10 Q. Do you know the Vance's Plan?
11 A. No, I don't. I don't know various details, and I guess it's quite
12 a hefty document. I didn't have access to it. I was in the centre of all
13 these events in Mostar and all that, so ...
14 Q. Right. Let me cut this short, if possible. Under the Vance-Owen
15 Plan, do you know how the Mostar problem was to be solved?
16 A. No. I really don't.
17 Q. You don't. Did you hear about a play -- about a locality called
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. What is it?
21 A. It is a square in the east part of the town and it's called
22 Musala, and it means where people who are Islamic believers, where they
23 have their prayers. It was at the time of the Turkish rule and the name
24 simply persisted.
25 Q. But was there a prison there, a camp for prisoners?
1 A. Are you referring to --
2 Q. Yes. I'm referring to 1993, about events immediately preceding
3 the events that we were discussing today.
4 A. I never heard about any such prison there.
5 Q. You've never heard about that?
6 A. No, never.
7 Q. Did you ever see a captured Croat prior to these events being
8 taken or have you -- or did you hear about a Croat being arrested by the
9 army of BH?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Did you ever hear that a sniper or some other weapon killed a
12 member of the HVO by a projectile fired by Bosniaks prior to these
14 A. If you're referring to Mostar --
15 Q. 1993. I'm referring to 1993, Mostar area.
16 A. Let me tell you, I left Mostar in June 1993.
17 Q. But I'm asking --
18 THE INTERPRETER: Or July. The interpreter is not sure.
19 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]
20 Q. I'm asking you before that.
21 A. If you want to know what I heard, I can tell you. In Crnica, a
22 Croat was killed by a Croat sniper in front of the building of the
23 emergency aid in Mostar. A Croat was killed by a Croat, by a driver,
24 because he thought that that man wasn't a Croat because he was wearing
25 civilian clothes.
1 Q. You heard that?
2 A. Well, you're asking me what I heard, so I'm telling you about
4 Q. And you didn't hear that a member of the BH army ever killed
6 A. No.
7 Q. You never heard that, did you? Very well. But was there any
8 fire? As we Croats, or rather, as we say, was there ever --
9 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Yes. I apologise, Mr. Fourmy. I get
10 carried away. I get carried away. I've asked my colleague to pull me by
11 the robe, but she seems to be also carried away, so she didn't warn me.
12 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Yes. I think we should put perhaps a
13 tassel. A long tassel on your left sleeve, Mr. Krsnik. But please don't
14 forget that all that is being said will be meant for the Judges' eyes. We
15 talk here about very many things. You understand with witness what you
16 are talking about up to certain point, but for the Judges who are not
17 familiar with the history, I understand there will, of course, some --
18 there will be opening statement by the Prosecution and perhaps from your
19 side. Of course you don't have to do that at that particular time, but,
20 say, that it is very difficult. You're talking about the 4th Corps. Very
21 good. And a number of other questions. For instance, in the beginning,
22 one understands it is the 4th Corps of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, of
23 the BH army, as we usually call it, but perhaps that is not self-evident
24 for everybody. So that formally -- then when you say, for instance, the
25 1st Mostar Brigade. These are just examples.
1 Likewise, if you ask a witness if he heard about a Croat killed by
2 a Muslim, obviously the witness -- what the witness is thinking about is a
3 Croat killed by a sniper in Mostar. Well, at least, that is how I would
4 have understood that question had it been addressed to me, but fortunately
5 it wasn't; it was addressed to the witness.
6 However, at the same time, somebody who will have to read this
7 thing, I think, will be rather at sea because of this, because knowing
8 what the conflict is kind, and for instance, we have a witness who simply
9 did not hear that a Croat was killed by a Muslim in that case. Of course
10 it sounds odd.
11 So it would help the reading if you could be more precise, either
12 to define a period of time, a date, or a place. If you could specify
13 these things because -- do you understand what I'm saying? Because
14 frankly speaking, in six months' time, a Judge who reads 10.000 pages of
15 transcript, I know we shall always have people who are very attentive, who
16 pay attention, but it will be hard. So will you please bear this in
18 Yes. Please do go on.
19 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I'm truly grateful to you,
20 Mr. Fourmy. You see, that is how I should ask my question; event and date
21 and place, but do you know how long would that cross-examination take? I
22 am trying to focus it all down, to narrow it down to things that were
23 touched upon in the direct examination.
24 I know that there will be a transcript of 10.000 pages, and I'm
25 positive that you will inform the Judges very well, because you were
1 present during these depositions, but in a whole series of statements --
2 and this is the first deposition about Mostar. There will be a whole
3 range of depositions because my learned -- and we will also be bringing
4 some others. So there is a logical sequence, of course. It is difficult
5 to draw any conclusions now.
6 Why I'm asking this matter? Perhaps I will follow up on some
7 questions that were asked today some six months later, but one doesn't
8 know. But once again, thank you very much.
9 Q. And the dates when you heard these things, do you know those dates
10 or don't you? To make it very short.
11 A. I don't know. What events are you referring to?
12 Q. Well, what we said, snipers and gunfire. The year. You don't
13 know? Was it before 1993? Before May 1993 or after May 1993 when you
14 heard that?
15 A. Well, that -- there was one event prior to May, prior to 9th of
16 May 1993, and the second one happened after the 10th of May.
17 Q. Why do you think that the 9th of May is the turning point is --
18 when you mentioned it so spontaneously?
19 A. Well, you know, if a quiet man is killed --
20 Q. Right, right, right. I get your meaning, yes. So tell us whether
21 the decision about that shall be made responsible for the defence of
22 Mostar, is it still in force? Has it ever been withdrawn?
23 A. I really don't know that.
24 Q. Oh, you don't know. Did you see or hear snipers from the east
25 side? I mean prior to the 9th of May, on the 9th of May, after the 9th of
1 May? I mean on the Bosniak side, East Mostar. That's where you lived, if
2 I understood well. Or at least, that's where you went later on?
3 A. Well, no. As a matter of fact, I was on the west side.
4 Q. Even after the event that you told us?
5 A. After those events.
6 Q. And from West Mostar you went where you are today?
7 A. That's right.
8 Q. Thank you very much. I missed that point. And how long after the
9 events -- I have to be mindful of protection measures. How long did you
10 stay in Mostar after that; a month, two, or three?
11 A. I left on the 16th of June or July, 1993.
12 Q. Nobody ever harmed you?
13 A. Well, I had some two contacts, but to be quite honest, I relied on
14 this piece of paper that was given to me by Mr. Naletilic.
15 Q. Well, are you grateful to him for that?
16 A. Well, I am.
17 Q. Where is the boundary between the East and West Mostar on the
18 Neretva bank? Or both sides on the east side?
19 A. Yes. You're quite right. This boundary that was drawn, one side
20 was under the responsibility of the HVO members and the other side was the
21 responsibility of the BH army. After the agreement reached in the
22 presence of UNPROFOR in the Projektant building between Generals Arif
23 Pasalic, and I think that on the Croat side it was General Mico Lasic, but
24 I am not sure if it was he or wasn't, but I'm quite positive that it was
25 Arif Pasalic, that he was either one of the delegates or that he did it
2 Q. In the Projektant building, that is, the building that housed the
3 HVO command?
4 A. It was the home for ART forces and perhaps part of the SIS. I'm
5 not quite sure. I do apologise. But I know that ART forces were housed
6 there at some kind of command, but I don't know which.
7 Q. How far is Vranica from Projektant, as the crow flies?
8 A. Well, let me say about 80 metres perhaps.
9 Q. Did the BH army have its checkpoints in front of Vranica, entrance
10 into East Mostar and around Mostar, which they may manned and kept?
11 A. In front of Vranica there was a guard.
12 Q. And what about checkpoints?
13 A. Well, quite honestly, I really don't know. I mean, I can explain
14 it if you want me to. I mean why, I don't know.
15 Q. No, no, no, you don't have to explain to me. If you don't know
16 something, why would you have to explain it to me?
17 For the transcript and so that we can understand one another
18 later, is it correct to say that Vranica is in the centre of Mostar or
19 that it is the centre of Mostar?
20 A. Well, it is away from the geographic center of Mostar, some dozens
21 of metres.
22 Q. And how far is it from the agreed boundary between the area of
23 responsibilities between the HVO and the BH army? How far is it from the
24 last front lines of the BH army in Mostar?
25 A. Well, about the same distance, I'd say.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
13 and the English transcripts.
1 Q. 'Cause the centre of Mostar in --
2 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness and counsel not speak at one
3 and the same time because the interpreters cannot follow that.
4 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]
5 Q. And why was the BH army command -- was within the agreed Croat
6 rather than its own area of responsibility?
7 A. I really don't know.
8 Q. Well, if you don't know, then you don't know. Since you don't
9 know, I won't ask you about that, whether you think it logical or not.
10 Somebody else will do that. Thank you.
11 When did the massive move of Bosniaks from the HVO to the BH army
12 start, if you know?
13 A. I don't know, but I know that many Bosniaks were taken directly
14 from the HVO units to camps. I'm sorry, that's it.
15 Q. No, no, no. That's fine, fine. Okay with me. You are an
16 educated man, an intellectual, so you got my meaning. So I'm asking you
17 about before the 9th of May.
18 A. Oh, that, I don't.
19 Q. Oh, you don't know that. All right. Did you hear that in the
20 trenches on the lines where Bosniaks and Croats -- where Croats and
21 Bosniaks were together, one night the Bosniaks aimed their rifles at
22 Croats from whom they had got them, as, for instance, Bijelo Polje,
23 Mostar? Did you hear about that? If you did. I know that you can't know
24 because you were not there, but I'm asking you because you are kept
25 abreast of things very well. So did you hear about that or from whom? If
1 you didn't, you didn't.
2 A. If you mean in terms of the 9th of May.
3 Q. Before the 9th of May.
4 A. Oh, before the 9th May.
5 THE INTERPRETER: The witness waves his hand and says nothing.
6 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]
7 Q. If I am correct, in your private notes - and I'll come to that -
8 in your private notes, you spoke about the liberation of Bijelo Polje and
9 the event happened in 1993. Who did you liberate Bijelo Polje from? I
10 mean the BH army.
11 A. I think from members of the Yugoslav People's -- what was it
12 called then? The armed forces of the SDS, of the Serb Democratic Party.
13 We called them Chetniks. Some people called them Serb troops and so on.
14 Q. 1993?
15 A. 1993. No, I wasn't there. I wasn't there during that operation.
16 When that operation in Bijelo Polje happened, I wasn't there.
17 Q. Do you mean the operation conducted by the BH army?
18 A. BH army with the HVO.
19 Q. Excuse me, I'm asking about 1993. And I think that the war with
20 Serbs is a well-known thing, well analysed, but if we are to arrive at the
21 genesis, one has to start there, but not today.
22 Now, if you know, did the BH army have another commander anywhere
23 except in Vranica?
24 A. I think in the south camp, that is, south barracks.
25 Q. And what about the Mostar Hotel, the Ruza Hotel?
1 A. I know about Mostar, but that was vacated after the agreement.
2 There was a group there. I think that Humo was a commander there, but I'm
3 not sure.
4 Q. Today we talked a lot about Juka Prazina. What is his ethnic
6 A. I think he's a Bosniak.
7 Q. Jusuf Prazina, Juka, Bosniak of Islamic faith -- or not. Excuse
8 me, can I ask you, can a Croat be a Bosniak? I mean a Croat from
9 Bosnia-Herzegovina, can he be a Bosniak, a Croat Bosniak or, as you say, a
10 Bosnian Muslim?
11 A. Well, I suppose it's a matter for a longer conversation. It can
12 sound strangely, Bosniak Croat or Croat Bosniak, a Bosniak Croat or
13 Croatian Bosniak, and I think these are matters for analysis. I really --
14 Q. No, my question is very simple. Can a Muslim from
15 Bosnia-Herzegovina -- it is logical for him to say, "I am a Bosniak
16 Muslim," whereas a Croat from Bosnia-Herzegovina who is a national,
17 they're all nationals in Bosnia-Herzegovina, he can therefore say, "I'm
18 Bosniak of Catholic faith," that is, a Croat.
19 Or does a Bosniak, when you say "Bosniak," does it automatically
20 mean that all these people are of Islamic faith? That is what I'm asking
21 you. Let's clarify this matter up because I see that you are, that you
22 are an intellectual, so you can help me.
23 A. Well, I will be happy to help you, and let's take my example, for
24 instance. In 1990 -- no, 1989, I did not -- I was not a believer. I was
25 a Muslim but not a believer. Before that --
1 Q. Yes, that's what you heard --
2 A. Well, I was a non-believing Muslim.
3 Q. Yes, yes, yes, we understand. After all, we went to school in the
4 same place, we had the same curriculum, not --
5 A. Before that, I was a non-believing Yugoslav. Then for a while I
6 was a Muslim, Muslim.
7 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Excuse me, witness, please. I am
8 really sorry I have to interrupt this very interesting exchange, but we
9 lost the transcript. I don't know if it is the case for everybody. I
10 think the transcript stopped some while ago and is it -- besides, this
11 very technical aspect of the conversation before you, I'd rather have a
12 question and answer with a slight pause between the two. So can you
13 please go more slowly.
14 Madam Registrar, is your transcript normal?
15 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] I think that Mr. Seric has a good
16 solution, as so often is the case, so let's make a break of 20 minutes.
17 Mr. Krsnik, I'm sorry, but I think it is much more sensible to do
18 that, and we shall be back here at ten to four. This session is
19 adjourned. Thank you.
20 Usher, will you please help the witness to leave the courtroom.
21 --- Recess taken at 3.30 p.m.
22 --- On resuming at 3.50 p.m.
23 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Please take your seats. Mr. Krsnik,
24 you can resume your cross-examination. Thank you. I said you could
25 resume your cross-examination. I believe that you and I have to pay
1 special attention in order not to speak too fast. So if I speak too fast,
2 you stop me, and if you speak too fast, I will stop you.
3 How much time have you got left?
4 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] About 20 minutes to half an hour.
5 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel switch on his microphone,
7 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I said 20 to 30 minutes. Thank you,
8 Mr. Fourmy.
9 Q. Witness, can we go on?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Let us finish this discussion where we left off. We called it
12 debate, I believe. It wasn't a debate, it was a clarification of terms to
13 make this easier for everyone, because we are searching for truth here,
14 and we're dealing with the truth.
15 Could you agree -- could we agree on one thing? If in normal
16 communication somebody says "Bosniak," does it mean implicitly a Muslim, a
17 person of Islamic faith?
18 A. Yes, that is what is meant, but I think that is deeply wrong,
19 because a person who declares himself as Bosniak is not asked of what
20 faith he is. He may be a Catholic, Muslim, an atheist, Buddhist.
21 Q. I'm happy with that answer. That's precisely what I wanted to
22 hear. I wanted to hear you answer my question in precisely that way.
23 So can we conclude that Mr. Jusuf Prazina, known as Juka, is a
24 Bosniak Muslim?
25 A. I wouldn't dare to claim anything in that respect. I can only
1 give you my assumption, and my assumption is that he is.
2 Q. I'm very surprised to hear that, sir, because Mr. Juka Prazina is
3 a fairly well-known person in Bosnia-Herzegovina and, I believe, further
5 A. Yes. Regrettably, he died. He got killed. But I think if you
6 say that you're a Croat, I can't say that you're a Catholic in the same
7 breath, because it's up to you to tell me to which faith you belong.
8 Q. Let us keep this short. Can you rule out the possibility that
9 he's a Croat?
10 A. I believe he's not a Croat.
11 Q. Tell me, please, before the 9th of May or perhaps even before
12 1993, were you living or did you have an apartment in the east part of
14 A. No.
15 Q. And what about your family; your mother, sister?
16 A. No. I had some relatives, but not close relatives. Perhaps more
17 distant relatives.
18 [Defence counsel confer]
19 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I apologise for this little incident.
20 Q. Do you know if after the conflict with the Serbs or perhaps during
21 the conflict with the Serbs, let us call them the army of Republika Srpska
22 or the Serbian forces, if many Muslim refugees came to the western part of
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Could we agree on the fact that the Croats admitted them and
1 accommodated them?
2 A. Yes. And may I also assist you?
3 Q. I will put my questions to you. Did many apartments remain
4 vacant, apartments owned by Serbs who left or, rather, fled Mostar during
5 the conflict?
6 A. Quite a lot of them.
7 Q. Into those vacant apartments, did Muslims move in as well?
8 A. Yes, both Muslims and Croats.
9 Q. Clearly I asked whether Muslims moved in, too, in the entire area
10 of Mostar, both the west and the east side?
11 A. Well, you probably know this, but the east side of Mostar was
12 occupied by the Yugoslav army.
13 Q. That's what I wanted to hear.
14 A. Then the migration was towards the west side of Mostar.
15 Q. How many, if you can tell me, were the refugees, I mean Muslim
16 refugees, who came to the west side of Mostar? Approximately.
17 A. If it's not very important, I can say. I suppose it was about
18 2.000, maybe --
19 Q. Many more.
20 A. You have those figures. I agree with your data if you have exact
22 Q. My figures don't matter. It's the witnesses who have to provide
24 A. Well --
25 Q. No, I don't mean you, I mean expert witnesses. I don't have time
1 for this now because we have to hurry up our examination.
2 Do you know, perhaps, the approximate ratio of Muslims and Croats
3 in the west side of Mostar? Was it upset after the arrival of Muslim
4 refugees who were admitted, accepted by the Croats and given vacant
5 apartments? Were they put up anywhere else? Do you -- did you hear about
6 the pupil's home, the Partizan cinema?
7 A. It was mostly people from Podvelezje, a mountain on the east side
8 of Mostar and a part of Gacko, who were put up there. A part of refugees
9 came from Bijelo Polje, a large part came from the east side of Mostar to
10 the west side. I believe the situation in the city was very confused.
11 The city administration wasn't doing very well.
12 Q. Could you please slow down.
13 A. All right. And for that reason, in a way, people were grabbing
14 apartments, almost. "Grabbing" is perhaps too strong a word, but the
15 situation was out of control. Later, apartments were perhaps made
16 available in a more organised manner, but at that time it was not
17 organised. Perhaps "grabbing" is too harsh a term, but there was some of
18 that, too.
19 Q. Thank you very much for this answer indeed, but I do have to lead
20 you through this examination because you said a moment ago that they came
21 only from the east side of Mostar and now you gave us a more complete,
22 truthful picture. It's true that refugees came from other parts of Mostar
23 as well during the aggression of Serbs.
24 A. Yes, they did, through the east side of Mostar.
25 Q. To the west side?
1 A. Yes, to the west side.
2 Q. So it's logical, I believe, for me to ask whether the ratio was
3 upset, the structure of the population, was it upset after this?
4 A. I don't know exactly. I must tell you, I wasn't really concerned
5 with the structure.
6 Q. All right. All right. Were people grabbing - and I'm going to
7 use your term, which I like very much - apartments which were also in the
8 area of Vranica?
9 A. Yes.
10 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: "In the building of
12 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Please tell me - and I want to deal with the remaining questions a
14 bit faster - you mentioned the north camp. I know what you mean. For the
15 record, it's the former barracks of the JNA?
16 A. That's right.
17 Q. Who was in that camp, the HVO or the army of Bosnia and
19 A. I can tell you this piece of information which I shared with the
20 Prosecutor's office; namely, one member of the HVO, who was Bosniak by
21 ethnicity and who had been in that northern camp, Tihomir Music, he said
22 that a group of HVO was located there as a quartermaster's unit, some sort
23 of kitchen.
24 Q. That camp, was it attacked by members of the BH army? Was it
25 taken over?
1 A. I heard about that event, and I read about it in the newspapers.
2 It was perhaps in the end of 1993 or the beginning of 1994. I'm not
4 Q. Is this camp now called by the nickname of Hujka? I know it's
5 called Hujdur.
6 A. Midhad Hujdur.
7 Q. Who was Hujka?
8 A. He was the commander of the BH army. I think it was the 1st
9 Motorised Brigade or something like that. I'm not sure.
10 Q. Was he defending the Vranica building?
11 A. No.
12 Q. And what about the members of his unit?
13 A. I don't know who were the members of his unit exactly. I really
14 don't know.
15 Q. We are now coming to the 9th of May; right? That's the day of
16 attack on Vranica, in your words.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. The BH army passively watched on or was it supporting those 18
19 soldiers inside Vranica?
20 A. Taking into account that the attack was also on the Defence lines
21 in the centre of town, I can't see that army members could have come there
22 at all, but they provided support through -- on the radio, because that's
23 also something that I heard about.
24 Q. And we already specified where the lines were, where the
25 demarcation line was. Were they not providing other support as well,
1 including mortars, snipers, fire?
2 A. I don't believe there was any weaponry on the east side.
3 Q. In May 1993 there weren't any weapons on the side of the BH army?
4 A. They had weapons but not many.
5 Q. Just a minute. Then who destroyed West Mostar, the Croats
7 A. You ask me specifically a question.
8 Q. Yes, specifically. You said there were no weapons. You lived in
9 Mostar, and I've been living in Mostar these -- recently.
10 A. I'll answer specifically. You asked who destroyed Western
12 Q. No. My question was about the weapons. You said they had no
13 weapons. Do you still continue to maintain that?
14 A. Look, I don't know what kind of weapons you mean.
15 Q. Oh, come on. You worked in the military industry, sir. You can
16 distinguish between -- you distinguish between a mortar and a cannon.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. You distinguish between a sniper gun and M48.
19 A. Yes. May I tell you now what you asked me?
20 Q. Who destroyed the western part of Mostar?
21 A. Yes. So we're talking now about the 10th of May, the 9th and the
22 109 of May; right?
23 Q. Yes. Fine.
24 A. We went outside of the building, into the street. We were not
25 afraid from any bullets or shells. We walked to the -- from the economic
1 school to the tobacco institute without fearing any shelling or sniper
2 fire. And then you can answer me now who destroyed the western part of
3 Mostar, because I don't know.
4 Q. I thank you very much for this answer, because it's logical that
5 civilians should not be shot at.
6 A. I don't know who shot.
7 Q. As far as I can see, nobody did. I mean, at their column.
8 A. A column. That's a broad concept.
9 Q. I apologise in advance if I put to you a question which you do not
10 immediately understand, because I have your statements which I studied,
11 and I am familiar with your thoughts and your words. I have them in mind
12 now as I'm asking my questions, and that's why I'm asking them.
13 You said that you watched Mr. Naletilic on TV as guest of honour.
14 A. I think it was the 1st Guardist Brigade there and --
15 Q. You watched it personally on TV?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. In your diary - and I must say it was very interesting to read -
18 you reminisced about the HVO and your affiliation. Did you get a
19 uniform? Were you issued with a uniform?
20 A. I can't say that I was issued with it, but I do have -- did have a
23 A. No.
24 Q. And were you issued with any weapons?
25 A. No.
1 Q. You reflected about your attitude to the BH army and you were very
2 emotional and very sensitive in thinking about that, and you said you were
3 a member of the air force group in the BH army.
4 A. Yes, you could say that. It was at the very beginning of the war
5 in 1992.
6 Q. But there was no BH army then.
7 A. Well, there was some kind of air force group, that's true. You
8 noticed that well. But I wasn't on any lists. They asked from me a
9 computer, because I had a computer, so that they could design possible
10 signs for planes. But I did not take an oath before anyone ever. I was
11 formerly a member of the HVO.
12 Q. I'm just waiting for the translation; otherwise, I'm ready to put
13 my next question. Well, can we then note that you were a member of the BH
14 army, even in -- at least in that sense which you just mentioned?
15 A. No, we couldn't note that.
16 Q. Tell me, please, earlier today during your examination-in-chief --
17 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Of course, Mr. Fourmy, let us not go
18 back to our yesterday's discussion regarding our common language.
19 Q. You said something odd, that a glamourous funeral was organised,
20 and you said it in a surprised tone. I mean, that funeral in Medjugorje
21 of that gentleman from the Spanish Battalion who regrettably got killed,
22 what was surprising about a man who was killed and who had come to serve
23 peace, what was surprising about giving him such a funeral? It only meant
24 that the Catholics were paying their respects. As you know, that is
25 characteristic of Catholics.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
13 and the English transcripts.
1 A. It is a bit odd in view of the circumstances that he got killed by
2 that people who was making those Catholic things very prominent.
3 Q. You don't certainly know -- you don't know anything about these
4 events for sure?
5 A. I know something but not details.
6 Q. I know that you know only a little about everything.
7 But what was the importance of your answer? Why did you stress
8 that it was organised by the Catholic church when you know very well that
9 every Catholic funeral is organised by the Catholic church?
10 A. Possibly.
11 Q. Maybe the interpreters didn't hear you. Oh, yes, here it is.
12 Do you know how many Muslim units there were in the HVO in the
13 summer of 1992? Or even better, if you know, do you know the number of
14 Muslims and Croats in those units respectively, their ratio?
15 A. I can't give you a precise answer to that question.
16 Q. I'm not looking for one.
17 A. But if you're speaking about the area of Mostar or a little bit
18 further afield, I don't have those military figures with me. I never had
19 them. But I know that there were four battalions of the HVO, and there
20 were -- there was an independent Mostar battalion which later became the
21 army of Bosnia and Herzegovina. There were many Muslims in the HVO then
22 because at that time they did not -- they were not paying attention to
23 ethnicity. At least, that's what seemed to be true to me.
24 Q. You mentioned the agreement reached in April 1993 which was signed
25 by Arif Pasalic and Miljenko Lasic. Do you know that personally,
2 A. I know because I met up with some people.
3 Q. Fine. So they told you?
4 A. They were important people.
5 Q. What does that mean to you, "important people"?
6 A. They were in positions of responsibility.
7 Q. So my first question is, who is Arif Pasalic; and the second is,
8 who is Miljenko Lasic?
9 A. Pasalic was the commander of the 4th Battalion, and Lasic was --
10 THE INTERPRETER: Could counsel and the witness please slow down.
11 We missed the last question and answer.
12 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]
13 Q. You mean he was a counterpart, Lasic was a counterpart of Arif
15 A. I don't know.
16 Q. Did you read the text of that agreement?
17 A. No.
18 Q. And do you know where Arif Pasalic's wife was after the 9th of
19 May, 1993?
20 A. No, I don't.
21 Q. You don't know.
22 A. I don't.
23 Q. And do you know what is his -- her ethnic background?
24 A. No, I don't know that either.
25 Q. I see. The command of the 4th Corps, was it in the basement of
1 the Vranica building?
10 A. Well, partly on the ground floor and partly on the basement.
11 Q. And under the agreement, were they supposed to move out of the
12 Vranica building?
13 A. No, I don't know. I don't know the text of the agreement.
14 Q. How many HVO units were attacking that building, in your view?
15 A. I can just make an educated guess, but I really don't agree.
16 Q. Oh, you don't know, I see. But since we're cooperating, well, you
17 see, let me clarify it. I asked you that because it doesn't seem logical
18 that 18 men, as you told us, defends such a building against all those
19 troops. So I think that my question was quite all right, with only rifles
20 at disposal, at their --
21 A. Well, yes, but on Bijeli Brijeg there must have been some heavier
23 Q. Do you know that or do you think?
24 A. No, I don't know that, but I'm guessing it, seeing of the damage
25 that was under the building.
1 Q. That is the only grounds for your assumption?
2 A. The only.
3 Q. Thank you. You said that BH army members changed into civilian
4 clothes in the Vranica building.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And what did they do with their weapons?
7 A. That I really -- no. They must have left them somewhere, but
8 where, how, I don't know.
9 Q. You don't know?
10 A. No, I don't.
11 Q. I'm asking you because you told my learned friends that you walked
12 up and down that building left and right and all over. So that's why I
13 thought that you could have seen that.
14 A. No. It was just a moment of surrender. At the moment of
15 surrender, I'm telling you I didn't see what they did with their weapons.
16 Q. And tell us, could the HVO know -- was the HVO in the position to
17 know that somebody was a member of the BH army if he surrendered while
18 wearing civilian clothes?
19 A. Well, yes, because all those people knew one another.
20 Q. That was the only way?
21 THE INTERPRETER: No answer from the witness.
22 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Then why did they hide their military clothes? Because that's
24 what you said; they changed and they hid the military clothes.
25 A. Yes, that's correct.
1 Q. What identity papers, what personal papers did they show when they
2 came out in front of the building? Was it the HVO cards or the ABiH cards
3 or none of those?
4 A. I think they were -- it varied. I think that quite a number of
5 people had HVO cards.
6 Q. You said that you had been brought to the tobacco institute.
7 A. That's right.
8 Q. You were brought, and Tuta stood there with a group of people, is
10 A. He was in front, alone with his escorts.
11 Q. Well, it does not agree with what you told us before.
12 A. I don't know what you mean.
13 Q. You said that you had been brought to the institute, that there
14 were very many important men there, and that one of them was Tuta. That
15 is what you said. Now, what is -- which is true?
16 A. No, no, no. That has -- that is a technical matter.
17 Q. No, no, no. That is not a technical matter. You are a
18 technician; I'm not.
19 A. There was a group of high HVO -- high-ranking officials of the HVO
20 were there in front of the building, but Mr. Naletilic was some ten metres
21 nearer us.
22 Q. And then why did you conclude that it was precisely Tuta who was
23 ordering everybody, issuing orders to everybody?
24 A. Well, because Juka practically handed us over to him.
25 Q. That was the only reason?
1 A. That was the only reason.
2 Q. And would you say that it was possible that he brought you there
3 in order to use the influence -- no, not the influence, but his
4 acquaintanceship with Tuta so as to have you released?
5 A. No, no, no, no, no. I wasn't alone. I was with a group.
6 Q. Right. Right. Very well. Never mind. So Juka was the one who
7 captured you. We can say that?
8 A. Yes, Juka and his men.
9 Q. Uh-huh, his men. And his men, if you know that, were they Muslims
10 or Croats?
11 A. There were some Croats there. There would have, could have been
12 some Muslims, but I'm quite sure that there were a couple of Croats, one
13 or two. At least one.
14 Q. One Croat?
15 A. One Croat.
16 Q. And what about the rest?
17 A. I don't know about the rest.
18 Q. Did everybody know? I'm referring to the area in front of the
19 tobacco institute. Did they all have HVO patches or did they have some
20 special ones?
21 A. They had HVO patches, and they have tricoloured bands, armbands.
22 Q. Was there any street fighting?
23 A. In the west part of the town? No.
24 Q. And the attack on the building in the centre of the city, you
25 wouldn't call that street fighting, and 300 metres away from BH army's
2 A. No. I mean --
3 Q. Just briefly, yes or no. I mean, do you consider this street
4 combat? Because when you say "street combat," the term means combat in
5 the street.
6 A. Well, I don't know how you understand it.
7 Q. Well, in street combats, you usually wear some bands, armbands or
8 something to show which army you belong to. But apart from the HVO and
9 that armband, did they have any other flashes, any other insignia,
11 A. No. I absolutely had no wish to try to clarify it, but you are
12 forcing me to answer. You are coercing me to an answer.
13 Q. No. I apologise. I'm asking about the armband.
14 A. Well, first you asked me about the building.
15 Q. Right. Very well. Never mind. Yes, go on.
16 A. No. I'm talking about the interpretation, because we seem to be
18 Q. So the attack of the Croat Defence Council on the building housing
19 the command post of the Bosnian-Herzegovinian army happened practically in
20 the centre part of the west part of Mostar. Will you agree with me about
21 that? You're answering. Never mind if I agree or not.
22 A. So this attack lasted for two days.
23 Q. You've already told us all that, and this is described in the
25 A. You asked me about street combat. I'm putting to you that there
1 was no fighting in the streets of the west part of Mostar.
2 Q. Right. This is the answer to one part of my question. But I was
3 about to help you and explain why I asked you about street combat, but you
4 are talking, and, you know, I cannot say because you are protected.
5 Nevertheless, you are an educated man, so I think it is easier for me to
6 explain it to you.
7 A. Yes. Just go ahead.
8 Q. When I say "street combat," then at that time it derives from the
9 term "street." That is why I ask you. And how you interpret it, that is
10 up to you. But you gave me an answer. Right. Very well.
11 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Mr. Krsnik --
12 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Just a moment. Just a little bit
14 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] I'm sorry but your cross-examination
15 has been lasting more than 1 hour, 40 minutes, whereas the direct
16 examination lasted much less. This is already - I don't know - the
17 umpteenth time I'm asking you to respect some of the equality of arms.
18 And we know that the direct examination lasted a reasonable period of
19 time, and if you go on like this, then we shall not be able to maintain
20 the pace that is necessary to finish with the depositions. Thank you.
21 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Fourmy. I was about
22 to finish. Perhaps two or three questions only I have left, but I must
23 ask you, Mr. Fourmy, with all due respect, these are major topics. They
24 cover vast areas. They cover an immense number of events, and it is
25 indeed very difficult to confine oneself to the time used by my learned
1 friends from the Prosecution, but I shall do my best, and let me try and
2 really make it as brief as possible.
3 Q. How did you know, when you described that beating, that it was
4 Tuta's men? How did --
5 A. They were his escorts.
6 Q. How do you know they were his escorts?
7 A. Well, I know that physically because they were together standing.
8 Q. And was that the only sign?
9 A. Well, then...
10 THE INTERPRETER: We cannot hear the witness. Could the witness
11 either speak up or come closer to the microphone.
12 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Is that your conclusion?
14 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please speak up. We cannot
15 hear his answers.
16 A. Yes, by all means.
17 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]
18 Q. And tell me, this certificate, the copy of which we were given
19 some time ago, where is the original of that document?
20 A. I think that the original is somewhere here in the Tribunal.
21 MR. KRSNIK: One second.
22 [Defence counsel confer]
23 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Only two questions left.
24 Q. How did you know -- oh, sorry. You did say that they addressed
25 Mr. Naletilic as General. Did he have any rank insignia?
1 A. I don't know. No, I'm not aware of that. No, I'm not sure.
2 Q. Do you know who put fire to the Mostar Hotel prior to the 9th of
4 A. No, I don't.
5 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Mr. Fourmy, I've finished, but just
6 for the record, I'd like to ask you to put it on record that to my
7 question, that is, transcript page 117, line 17, when I asked if Miljenko
8 Lasic was Arif Pasalic's counterpart -- even the question is missing from
9 the transcript. This question was missing and the witness's answer to the
10 question are missing from the transcript.
11 I think, Mr. Fourmy, that that was at the time when we had
12 problems with the transcript. Yes, my colleague tells me that perhaps it
13 was then. So for the transcript, could we then take note of that,
14 please? Should I now ask a question? Should I now ask a question and get
15 an answer? And then we'll be finished.
16 Q. You remember my question, don't you? Was Miljenko Lasic [Realtime
17 transcript read in error "Milan Kopilas"] during these negotiations, was
18 he Arif Pasalic's counterpart?
19 A. And I said then that I didn't know, and I say it now.
20 Q. Thank you. It's only for the transcript, you know.
21 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Just one more thing, for the record.
22 The witness said that the north camp is called Midhad Hujdur Hujka
23 barracks. This is for the transcript.
24 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Mr. Krsnik, two things: I think that
25 the witness only referred to Midhad Hujka, not to Hujdur, but right now,
1 we can see that.
2 As for the other name, with regard to Arif Pasalic, the transcript
3 says "Milan Kopilas," and I do not think that is that name.
4 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Oh, no. It says not.
5 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] So can we correct it?
6 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] It is Miljenko -- is it Miljenko
7 Lasic? Is that it?
8 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Could you please spell it out so we
9 can be sure.
10 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Yes. Indeed, thank you very much for
11 your effort. Thank you very much. My colleague who was following the
12 transcript was about to say -- it was just when you started speaking that
13 she saw it on the screen. Thank you, I have finished.
14 Q. Thank you, Witness.
15 A. Thank you, too.
16 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Krsnik.
17 Mr. Seric?
18 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] As the cross-examination by the
19 Defence of the first accused was very exhaustive indeed with regard to the
20 general circumstances about which the witness testified, and as in the
21 rest of his testimony he did not provoke the Defence of the second
22 accused, we have no reasons to do any cross-examination.
23 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Seric.
24 Mr. Scott, do you have any additional questions?
25 MR. SCOTT: Yes, Your Honour. If I could have the usher's help to
1 have this marked as Exhibit P58. It should be the next exhibit, I
2 believe. We could not have numbered this or have translations,
3 Mr. Fourmy, because it only comes in response to cross-examination, so I'm
4 going to have to ask the witness to assist us in interpretation with,
5 perhaps, the assistance of the translation booth.
6 Mr. -- I'm sorry, Mr. Usher. Did I say -- perhaps I've given you
7 the wrong number. Fifty-eight may not have been the right number. No, we
8 have the wrong number, I'm sorry. Fifty-nine. My apology. No, it's
9 new. Okay. Yes, if you can put that part in front of him, please.
10 That's ...
11 THE INTERPRETER: Can we have it on the ELMO, please.
12 MR. SCOTT: Yes, as far as I'm concerned. You may need to move
13 the yellow sticky there because it probably -- it may block -- it was for
14 my benefit, I'm afraid.
15 Re-examined by Mr. Scott:
16 Q. Witness E, both in direct exam and on the cross-examination, you
17 were asked about this mass that was organised for the Spanish officer who
18 was killed, and there are a couple of questions that came out of that.
19 One is at the time on direct you didn't recall the date. I'd like to look
20 at -- I'd like you to look at this document. And for the record, I think
21 counsel already referred to this document a number of times, but these are
22 a series of notes that you apparently have made about these events.
23 If I can direct your attention to about the, oh, seven or eight
24 lines down from the top of that page that's on the ELMO, do you see there
25 a description about the mass for this killed Spanish officer? Starting on
1 the 8th of May, I believe. Do you have that?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Okay. In the interests of time, perhaps it's easier -- does it
4 say -- well, strike that. Would you read that to us, and then if the
5 translation will please help us. Could you just read the part that talks
6 about the -- in the evening of 8th of May, then you go on to the next
7 event. Go ahead, yes.
8 A. "In the night of the 8th of May on the eve of the general attack
9 on the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina --" shall I start again?
10 "In the night of the 8th of May on the eve of the general attack
11 on the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, the HVO drove out," in inverted commas,
12 "the members of the Spanish Battalion of the UNPROFOR from the town.
13 Disgrace and horror. The citizens of Bosnia-Herzegovina believed that the
14 UNPROFOR would be protecting them against any military attack."
15 Q. Would you stop there, please. Now, Witness E, does that refresh
16 your memory as to the date of the mass? Was it -- it was on the 8th of
17 May, wasn't it, according to your notes?
18 A. No, I don't think it was the 8th of May. It was later, but it is
19 within the same context --
20 Q. Well, do your notes say --
21 A. -- because --
22 Q. -- on that evening of the 8th of May?
23 A. Well, it says that they were driven out of the town.
24 Q. Did you -- what do you mean they were driven out of the town,
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
13 and the English transcripts.
1 A. Well, it is in inverted commas, that is, from the -- through the
2 window of the flat that I was in I could see an UNPROFOR vehicle leave its
3 usual place at the junction between Projektant and Vranica.
4 Q. All right. So the reference you have in your notes to the 8th of
5 May has nothing -- you're suggesting it has nothing to do with the mass in
6 the Medjugorje?
7 A. It doesn't. No, no.
8 Q. A final question, then, Witness E. On the -- in your observations
9 when you were at the tobacco institute on that -- after being taken there,
10 who, to your observation, did Juka subordinate himself to and take
11 direction from?
12 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Objection. I apologise.
13 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Mr. Krsnik.
14 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Fourmy. I mean, this
15 question was already asked during the direct examination. We got an
17 MR. SCOTT: Mr. Fourmy.
18 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] This is repetitive.
19 MR. SCOTT: Mr. Fourmy, Mr. Krsnik went on and on and on for
20 almost two hours. He also asked specific questions about this and
21 suggested that the witness was incorrect in his observations about what
22 was happening. I'm asking the witness to confirm exactly what he did see.
23 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Mr. Fourmy --
24 MR. SCOTT: If counsel is prepared to stipulate that Juka took
25 direction and was ordered by Tuta, then we have an agreement and we can go
1 on; but he attacked the issue on cross-examination, and I'm entitled to
2 come back to it on redirect.
3 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Mr. Fourmy --
4 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] No, no, no. Oh, no. No, I'm sorry.
5 I tried to indicate it with my hand. Perhaps I need a very long stick or
6 a gavel to try to ensure some discipline or perhaps to conduct this
7 orchestra here, but I have to wave my hands. No, I need perhaps three
8 conductors to manage this. I'm sorry, I am joking.
9 I think it is quite legitimate for a party to answer. I'm in the
10 middle of two different points of view, especially those which are
11 antagonistic. But Mr. Krsnik, if you wish to answer, yes, do that, but I
12 have to wait for the interpretation of what I have just heard to end. And
13 if the French is over, I believe the other two languages will be finished,
14 will be over, too, because French is longer than either of the two. But
15 we must have equality between Prosecution and Defence.
16 Yes, Mr. Krsnik.
17 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Fourmy. I should like
18 to ask you and my learned friend Mr. Scott not to have such discussions in
19 front of witnesses because Mr. Scott right now said what he wanted to
20 learn without even asking his question. So I should like to ask if such
21 questions are asked and if there is a discussion between two parties, then
22 can we have the witness out of the courtroom briefly until we clarify the
23 matter? Because this now has lost all purpose of the objectivity. Thank
25 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Mr. Krsnik, I'd really hate to have
1 to go, this is -- I'd hate to have to go to the substance because this is
2 not an area which I would like to tackle.
3 Some questions were asked by the Prosecution of the witness. You
4 took up the same subject but from a different point of view. Notably, if
5 I may mention that with regard to the person or persons who could have
6 been present at a moment when the witness was transferred, in inverted
7 commas, from one person to another person. This is just a suggestion,
8 therefore, because the Prosecutor does have some legitimacy to ask one
9 question of the witness, one question about that.
10 Yes, Mr. Krsnik.
11 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Mr. Fourmy, with due respect, you
12 have further clarified the question, and therein lies the merit of that
13 question. And this witness - let us go to the end and now the Defence
14 will go on to say more - his answer was that it was his conclusions. Now
15 that we have clarified everything, I see no meaning in asking any
16 questions about this any more. But of course you will make your decision
17 and I will accept it.
18 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Mr. Krsnik, can I understand this as
19 a possibility for the Prosecutor to ask the question, one question only?
20 Because it's not up to me, really. And he will soon finish the redirect
21 and thus we will be able to finish this working day.
22 [Defence counsel confer]
23 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I hold Mr. Scott in very high
24 esteem, and I believe Mr. Scott can see this. I hold him in very high
25 regard as a professional, and I think after this discussion, he will put
1 his question in a very professional manner.
2 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Krsnik. Please turn
3 off your microphone.
4 Mr. Prosecutor, if you wish to continue within the limits that we
5 have just discussed.
6 MR. SCOTT: Well, I have to say, Mr. Fourmy, that this is
7 objectionable. Counsel's gone on for hours now, and I basically have sat
8 back and let him ask endless questions about this, and now I'm saying --
9 now I'm limited to one question, and I say it's quite surprising, really.
10 But I want to bring this to an end. I want to bring this to an end,
11 Mr. Fourmy, so I will ask one question, but there has to be a better way
12 of -- there has to be a better way of doing this.
13 Q. Witness E, will you please tell us, who did you see -- when Juka
14 took you in to the tobacco institute, who did you see Juka subordinate
15 himself to and take direction from? It's a very simple question.
16 A. Well, Juka brought us outside the building of the tobacco
17 institute and turned us over to Mr. Mladen Naletilic, Tuta, and he was
18 subordinated to him during that operation of handover/takeover.
19 MR. SCOTT: No further questions, Mr. Fourmy.
20 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Prosecutor.
21 Witness, your deposition is concluded. Thank you very much for
22 coming here. The Judges who will see and, of course, hear your testimony
23 are also grateful to you, and I wish you a very safe return to your
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, too, for doing a very
1 important work which is meaningful and significant for all of humanity,
2 and I will hope that the Defence will also appreciate the importance of
3 participating in such an important process.
4 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you.
5 [The witness withdrew]
6 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] I see it's five to five. I think
7 we've had a very long day indeed, and I suggest that we adjourn.
8 If you allow me, I think that we could -- Mr. Krsnik, may I, if I
9 can allow myself, sometimes I see in you a little boy whom I used to know
10 who is hiding in the back of the classroom to be able to talk about what
11 he wishes to talk about. What I wanted to see is a different way of
12 work. We have worked very well until now. I think the discussions we've
13 had so far are quite normal and quite customary within the framework of
14 the procedure of depositions. The only difference being that we are
15 discussing very important things. But I must remind you that the decision
16 about these depositions were made by Judges who set a certain framework.
17 I think it is usual for witnesses who come here, regardless of
18 their importance, are actually a little less important than those who will
19 appear at the trial. Therefore, we should always bear in mind that we are
20 taking information down here, and doubtlessly not all the information
21 gathered here will be the object of discussion until the trial itself and
22 no conclusions can be drawn until the trial about them.
23 I must say another thing very insistently, that an effort needs to
24 be made, namely, regarding the length of statements, depositions. We have
25 three more witnesses to hear, that is, to depose, in order to finish this
1 week, and those are all the witnesses who are physically present in The
2 Hague. I think it is certainly in the interest of all of us, especially
3 the witnesses, to avoid having to keep them here through the weekend.
4 In order to be able to go through three witnesses tomorrow, we'll
5 have to proceed at a higher speed, which doesn't mean speaking more --
6 faster still. And I have to address this to you in particular,
7 Mr. Krsnik, because both you and I speak very fast indeed.
8 When I say working more quickly, that means working better, and
9 that means perhaps shorter, more concise, more focused questions, which
10 means questions easier for the witness. The Office of the Prosecutor has
11 so far conducted brief examinations-in-chief, and I am always asking from
12 the Defence, and Mr. Seric, you have assisted us greatly in this because I
13 am also asking for the cross-examinations to be brief as well, and the
14 principle of our depositions from this moment on should be to give us a
15 panoramic view of the facts cited in the indictment which relate
16 specifically to each of the accused.
17 However, the Judges will ultimately, thanks to all of you, get
18 this broad picture. But right now, we are just putting together small
19 pieces of the puzzle, and that is a big task, certainly. I think this is
20 enough for now.
21 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] I apologise. I will try to be brief.
22 Regarding what you've just said, I would like to say that it would be
23 helpful, since we are proceeding from the theory that those witnesses are
24 less important, we should clarify the concept of "less important
25 witnesses." Perhaps the Prosecutor could help us on this and tell us what
1 it means, "less important witnesses." Then perhaps the attitude of the
2 Defence could be more flexible.
3 I would like to understand the procedural meaning of the concept
4 "less important witnesses." Does it mean that the Trial Chamber will
5 find that conviction could not be based on the statement of such a witness
6 and that the witness is less important in that sense?
7 In any case, we would like to be told what exactly it means, "less
8 important witness," and we'll formulate our stance proceeding from that.
9 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Mr. Par, I believe that you are
10 telling words of wisdom, and the words that I have spoken, as you know,
11 are not mine. What you've just said suggests indubitably that the Defence
12 and Prosecution can, as has been suggested on several occasions, meet and
13 more easily find, that is, identify instruments for abbreviating debates
14 here in the courtroom and depositions in general. You should take time to
15 think about this until tomorrow, and I thank you in advance for making an
16 effort to go through three witnesses tomorrow.
17 Thank you. We are adjourned.
18 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 5.02 p.m.,
19 to be reconvened on Friday, the 27th day
20 of July, 2001, at 9.15 a.m.