Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1215

1 Monday, 30 July 2001

2 [Private session]

3 [Depositions Hearing]

4 [The accused entered court]

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Page 1221

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3 [Open session]

4 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Mr. Prosecutor, please continue with

5 your examination-in-chief.

6 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. Fourmy.

7 Q. Now, witness, by way of background information further, at

8 approximately the 15th of May 1992, you joined the ABiH, that is the army

9 of the country of Bosnia-Herzegovina; is that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And is it also correct that, at least during a part of this time,

12 you became a member of what was called the 201st Viteska Brigade?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And just so the record is clear and so that neither Mr. Fourmy or

15 I or others are confused about the reference to the Viteska Brigade, this

16 was not a HVO brigade from the Vitez area, was it?

17 A. Correct.

18 MR. SCOTT: I say that Mr. Fourmy because you may recall another

19 brigade by that name, and I just didn't want the record to reflect any

20 confusion about that.

21 Q. Now, is it correct that during your entire military duty up to the

22 time that you were arrested or captured, your position, your assignment,

23 if you will, was on the confrontation line against the Serbs?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And up to the time that you were arrested, witness, can you tell

Page 1222

1 us, had you ever fought engaged in armed hostilities against Croats?

2 A. I did not.

3 Q. Witness, I'm going to ask you to speak up just a little. If you

4 can speak just a little bit louder, please.

5 A. I will.

6 Q. All right. Now, let me direct your attention, please, to the 25th

7 of June, 1993. Around that time, were you captured by HVO soldiers a

8 short distance from your home?

9 A. I was.

10 Q. And for the record, Witness, you were 19 years old at that time?

11 A. I was.

12 Q. What had you been doing immediately prior? What was your

13 assignment or where had you been immediately prior to being captured by

14 these HVO soldiers?

15 A. Shall I explain?

16 Q. Yes, please.

17 A. Not far from our houses there were about five or six Croatian

18 houses, and we went to those houses to see, should any conflict break out,

19 either that they should join us or that they should withdraw in case the

20 HVO troops arrived and attacked us.

21 Q. And had you been on the confrontation line against the Serbs in

22 the days preceding your arrest?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Now, tell us about your arrest or capture itself. What happened?

25 A. Three days prior to the conflict between the BH army and the HVO,

Page 1223

1 the HVO had taken military positions just above our houses. We

2 established that as we headed towards those Croat houses, and when we got

3 there, there were about four or five villagers and about ten soldiers we

4 didn't know. On that occasion, a couple of our Croatian neighbours came

5 up and asked that they release us, but none of the soldiers wanted to do

6 that. And they said that they would release us during the evening, or

7 rather, exchange us for HVO soldiers who had been captured in Maglaj, of

8 which I was not aware, and we were told we would be transferred to the

9 village of Fojnica, which is about three kilometres away.

10 Q. Now, these were HVO soldiers that captured you?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And can you tell us, did you recognise some of these soldiers as

13 people that you knew or at least faces that you were familiar with?

14 A. As regards our Croatian neighbours, I knew them, but as for the

15 soldiers, I knew a couple of them from school and by sight.

16 Q. All right. Concerning the HVO soldiers, before we go on - you may

17 have said this a moment ago, but let me be clear - did it appear to you

18 that some of the HVO soldiers were from outside that immediate area, that

19 these soldiers were not people that you recognised?

20 A. I think there were some from other areas, not just from the

21 surroundings of our village, but from other areas as well.

22 Q. Mr. Fourmy, I'm just going to say for the record, and again to

23 avoid any confusion in the Chamber, if we can, I'm going to skip over a

24 substantial amount of material that is in this witness' statement,

25 because, if I can summarise it this way, what the statement would indicate

Page 1224

1 is that the witness was then moved, after being captured, was moved around

2 a number of locations until he ultimately arrived more in the region that

3 we call Herzegovina, and some of these other matters are simply not

4 particularly directly relevant to the case. So if counsel see from the

5 statement that I am not covering every detail, that's why.

6 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Prosecutor. This is

7 very useful for us to know, and I'm sure that it will speed things up, and

8 we thank you for it. So please proceed.

9 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. Fourmy.

10 Q. Witness, before turning, please, to the more central part of your

11 testimony, let me just touch on a few matters. Is it correct, please,

12 that several hours after you were captured, to your knowledge, there was

13 then a joint Croat/Serb attack on your village?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Now, initially, were you taken to the village of -- and again,

16 this is part of the material I'm going to cover only very broadly, but

17 were you taken to a village called Radunice?

18 A. The village of Radunice, yes.

19 Q. Forgive my pronunciation. And you stayed at that location for

20 approximately nine days, where you were held initially with about 40 or 50

21 other Muslim prisoners; is that correct?

22 A. May I just add that from the village of Radunice, I was moved to

23 the village of Perkovici, and that is where I was kept for nine days.

24 Q. You're absolutely right, Witness. My error. You were held, then,

25 in Perkovici for about nine days, initially with a group of about 40 to 50

Page 1225

1 other Muslim prisoners, and I believe your testimony would show that

2 ultimately there was a group of some approximately 400 prisoners kept in

3 that village, either in a school or in a warehouse or a gymnasium, but all

4 together; is that correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And moving forward with only one or two more questions about this

7 particular time period. Can you tell the Chamber: During the time that

8 you were held in Perkovici, around that time, and perhaps in other

9 locations as well, as you were on your way, if you will, or making your

10 way by being moved more to the Ljubuski/Mostar area, was there a time you

11 were held jointly or under the control of both Croats and Serbs?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Would you just tell us briefly about that? How did that come

14 about and how was it that you were controlled or under the control of both

15 Croats and Serbs together for a time?

16 A. Well, when we were captured, and later, when we were divided as

17 soldiers and civilians, we were ordered to board buses, and on that

18 occasion there were members of the military police, of the VRS, and there

19 was one HVO military policeman in each bus. And we headed towards

20 Herzegovina, and somewhere around Livno, I think it was, we were

21 transferred from one set of buses to HVO buses, and then we went on to

22 Ljubuski under HVO escort alone, whereas the Serbs turned back.

23 Q. All right. Can you just tell the Chamber briefly how many

24 days -- approximately how long were you in, if I can say, the joint

25 custody of both the HVO and the Serbs?

Page 1226

1 A. You mean from the day when we were captured or from the day when

2 we were transferred towards Herzegovina?

3 Q. Witness, I'm sorry. My question probably isn't clear. I'm simply

4 trying to inform the Chamber, if we can, the number of days after the time

5 that you were initially captured, approximately how long was it that you

6 were held by both Croats and Serbs together?

7 A. From the moment of capture until we were handed over in

8 Herzegovina, about 12 days.

9 Q. Now, as you were moved to Herzegovina and into the municipality of

10 Ljubuski, were you taken to a location or a village called Vitina?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And where were you detained in Vitina?

13 A. We were detained in a hangar, actually, in the middle of a

14 vineyard, and there was a steel hangar, and we were kept there for about

15 25 days to a month.

16 Q. And can you tell the Chamber: During the time you were held in

17 this hangar, were you also being used by the HVO, and perhaps others, to

18 perform various forced labour, such as digging trenches and fortifying

19 bunkers?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Can you please tell the Chamber in your own words: During this

22 time, did you see other Croat soldiers that were not part of the HVO?

23 A. I did. At Gola Brda I saw engineers of the Croatian army from

24 Dubrovnik.

25 Q. And how did you know this unit of engineers was from the Croatian

Page 1227












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Page 1228

1 army, the HV, as opposed to the HVO?

2 A. While we were engaged in this hard labour - drilling holes,

3 carrying stone, and cleaning - these soldiers - and there were many

4 workers - and we were making bunkers and fortifications for heavy weapons

5 and artillery, and the same soldiers told us that they were from Croatia.

6 Q. And did they specifically say they were from Dubrovnik?

7 A. One soldier - and through him I contacted my family in Rijeka - he

8 said he was from Dubrovnik. Later, when I united with my family, they

9 told me that a man from Dubrovnik had called them and told them that I was

10 fine. He didn't introduce himself to my family.

11 Q. Very well. Now, during this time period, were you ever forced to

12 go into mined areas to conduct work?

13 A. We engaged in cleaning of shrubs and stones to make a clearing for

14 the activities of the artillery, so we crossed minefields and in fact

15 spent some time in minefields.

16 Q. Can you tell the Chamber, please, were any of the prisoners

17 wounded or injured as a result of working among a mined area, in a mined

18 area?

19 A. Yes. Two detainees had their foot blown off, soles of their feet.

20 Q. Were you mistreated? Were you and other prisoners mistreated

21 during this time that you were held by both the HVO and HV soldiers?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. All right. Now let's move forward, please. At sometime when you

24 were being held at Vitina, did a truck arrive with HVO soldiers and take

25 you and other prisoners somewhere else to perform work?

Page 1229

1 A. Yes, a truck arrived --

2 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Mr. Scott? Mr. Prosecutor?

3 MR. SCOTT: Yes.

4 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] I'm sorry to interrupt you,

5 Mr. Scott. I really do not wish to do that. But if I may, when the

6 witness tells us that he was mistreated, I think it is necessary perhaps

7 to ask him to describe the kind of mistreatment that he or others had been

8 exposed to. I'm not a judge but I'm trying to figure out what judges

9 might say -- might think when seeing such piece of information. If you

10 have such important details come up during your direct examination, it is

11 perhaps necessary for you to explore that further on so that the judges

12 can be clear on the issue.

13 Mr. Krsnik?

14 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Mr. Fourmy, I apologise for this

15 intervention, but I have to say that I see no reason whatsoever, in such

16 an adversarial system, when the Prosecutor is conducting his

17 examination-in-chief, to be told in any manner as to how he should conduct

18 his examination and how he should phrase his questions. Because it is on

19 the basis of his examination-in-chief and the witness testimony that the

20 Defence will be challenging that testimony, and the judges will have an

21 opportunity to read the record because, if the Prosecutor is not -- does

22 not intend to -- if he doesn't conduct his examination-in-chief in that

23 manner, then perhaps he has some very good reasons for that, and the

24 Chamber should, I think, remain passive in this case.

25 I'm sorry, but I think that although we are now in deposition

Page 1230

1 procedure, I really felt the need to voice this objection. Thank you very

2 much.

3 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] I do understand your objection,

4 Mr. Krsnik, but I am not -- I do not agree with you at all. And like I

5 told to -- this witness who came here, I'm only an intermediary here, but

6 I'm also trying to be reasonable and trying to understand, as far as

7 possible, the information that is being supplied to us. And when I don't

8 understand something, I say it publicly. And I think that the meaning,

9 the objective of this procedure would be defeated if we do not clarify --

10 I'm sorry for the interpreters, I think I'm speaking too fast, but I think

11 that if judges are not able to gather the kind of information that is

12 provided -- that is intended to be provided by the witness, then there

13 seems to be a problem and I -- this is what I told the counsel for the

14 Prosecution and it is -- it will be up to you to cross-examine the witness

15 the way you wish to cross-examine him. I think that -- yes, but at the

16 end of the story, I really wish to understand what is being told by the

17 witness. I think that the judges also wish to understand what's going

18 on. And if the witness tells us that he had been subjected to some kind

19 of ill-treatment, and if we do not get any details, then the whole

20 procedure is pointless and I don't think how that will assist the judges

21 who will later on read the transcript.

22 And I think that the presence of the witness, in this case

23 Mr. Hadzisalihovic, has to be made useful. He has -- he was willing

24 enough to come here and testify. Yes. You perhaps may be right that

25 certain questions should not be asked. That is not the point of my

Page 1231

1 intervention. It's just that I wanted to make things clear. Mr. Krsnik?

2 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Mr. Fourmy, we both come from the

3 same kind of legal system and we have more experience with the

4 inquisitorial type of procedure where judges conduct the procedure. Here,

5 we are at the mercy of the Prosecutor and the Court is passive, and it is

6 up to the Prosecutor to lead his examination. Maybe he does not even want

7 certain answers to -- certain answers to elicit from the witness. We are

8 here applying the system that is applied by the adversarial system in the

9 examination of witnesses. That was the main objective of my objection,

10 nothing else.

11 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. Krsnik.

12 Mr. Prosecutor, would you please continue?

13 MR. SCOTT: Yes, Mr. Fourmy. Let me very briefly -- I don't want

14 to take more time on this. Your question, Mr. Fourmy is entirely

15 appropriate. I'm trying to balance both the substance and the efficiency,

16 if you will, of the testimony, and it may be that in some instances, I

17 came down too much on the side of efficiency. And if so, it's my fault,

18 not the witness's fault. But your question is entirely appropriate, of

19 course.

20 Q. Witness, I apologise, we have gone on now for some minutes, but I

21 had asked -- the last question that had been put to you was whether you

22 were mistreated by the HVO and HV soldiers during this time that you were

23 telling us about a few minutes ago. And Mr. Fourmy has correctly asked if

24 you can tell us please a little bit more about the details of how you were

25 treated, in what way were you mistreated, if you can just describe to us

Page 1232

1 that?

2 A. While I was in the camp, that is the hangar, we didn't have enough

3 food. We were not able to go to the toilet when we needed to. Mostly, we

4 were detained in a room which was walled in, and the nights were very hot

5 and it was very stuffy in there. We were all sweating and it was really

6 very hot. And then we were made to -- we were forced to go outside and we

7 would spend the whole night outside. And after some 15 or 20 days, people

8 started fainting because they were hungry, they were starving, and it was

9 in such a state that we were forced to perform labour, and we were in

10 contact with the military. We were often beaten and kicked. We had to

11 carry very heavy stones. We had to dig in some very hard, rocky soil

12 until our hands were bleeding, and HVO soldiers would shoot at us, kick us

13 in our heads with their heavy boots. And in many cases, guns, automatic

14 weapons were pointed at me, and I thought that they would open fire at any

15 moment. And because Hercegovinians speak in a somewhat different dialect

16 that we did, Bosnians, so they would slap us when we said something that

17 didn't mean anything to them. We had to roll down on the earth in the

18 dust, and when there was nothing to do, we were made to carry stones from

19 one heap to another.

20 And I once went to fetch some water because we had spent the whole

21 day without drinking a drop of water, and then HVO soldiers forced me to

22 take off my underwear, and on that occasion, they made me to sodomise a

23 goat. And then they insulted me, they -- telling me that -- they told me,

24 "You had done it on a number of occasions," but at the last moment, one

25 soldier came who prevented them from doing that. Otherwise I would have

Page 1233

1 been forced to sodomise a goat. And I am very grateful to him. That is

2 what happened.

3 MR. SCOTT: Mr. Fourmy, I think you have the answer.

4 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Prosecutor. Now the

5 matter is much more clear for everyone, I believe.


7 Q. Sir, let's just move forward if we can. After you'd been held at

8 Vitina for some two or three months, were you taken by a truck to a

9 location either at or near Grude to perform some work there?

10 A. We were taken to Grude in a truck. We were brought to some kind

11 of warehouse where we loaded several boxes of cigarettes, some foam

12 mattresses and blankets, and after that, we went to the village of Vrde

13 which I learned only after we got there.

14 Q. Now, were you held then or detained, if you will, at Vrde for

15 approximately four months?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. All right. Now, while you were at Vrde, again, can you please

18 tell the Chamber, did you come into connection -- you told us a moment ago

19 about one HV unit from Dubrovnik. Can you tell us, please, around this

20 time while you were being held at Vrde, did you come into contact with

21 another HV unit?

22 A. During my time in the village of Vrde, before I left for the

23 Heliodrom, an HV unit called Gromovi arrived.

24 Q. Perhaps with the interpreters's assistance, what does "Gromovi"

25 mean? Maybe you can tell he us or perhaps the interpretation will have to

Page 1234

1 tell us what it means, please?

2 THE INTERPRETER: Thunderbolt.


4 Q. Did you know around this time or had you heard of an HV unit

5 called the Thunderbolts?

6 A. It was on that occasion that I met them.

7 Q. And did you see a patch on their uniform that said, "Grom" or

8 something like that?

9 A. I saw an insignia stating the Thunderbolts and there was a sword

10 through the lightning, piercing the lightning.

11 Q. Can you tell us a bit more about the location, if you can recall,

12 where you saw this HV unit called Thunderbolts?

13 A. The HV unit Thunderbolts arrived in the village of Vrde and they

14 were manning the line at the Cabulja feature.

15 Q. Now, witness, can you please tell the Chamber, during the time

16 that you were being held and performing forced labour, to your knowledge,

17 were you and other prisoners with you ever hid or concealed from UN forces

18 or the Red Cross?

19 A. While I was in the village of Vrde, we were made to carry out some

20 reparations of the road leading -- I don't know exactly where. I'm not

21 familiar with the area. We were always goaded by two or three HVO

22 soldiers depending on how many we were in the group. And once we heard a

23 UN or a Red Cross vehicle coming from the direction of village of Dreznica

24 and we were made to hide in the nearby woods.

25 Q. Now, directing your attention forward, did there come a time when

Page 1235

1 the ABiH attacked the HVO near Dreznica and were you then assigned to or

2 forced to carry ammunition for the HVO?

3 A. Yes, I was.

4 Q. Now, witness, if you can -- I don't want to direct you here any

5 more than is necessary. Around the time that you were carrying this

6 ammunition, then, for the HVO soldiers, do you remember a particular

7 encounter with a senior HVO officer? Can you tell us about that, please?

8 A. While we were repairing the road in the village of Vrde, we heard

9 fire from automatic weapons near the Vrde location, and the HVO made us --

10 they forced us to go to the command, local command of the Grude Brigade,

11 and on that occasion I first heard about Tuta's soldiers. They were very

12 rude to us. They threw cigarettes at us, cigarettes that had been given

13 to us by HVO, and we were made to carry ammunition boxes and run to the

14 relay feature with those boxes.

15 While we were moving towards the relay feature, the relay

16 elevation point, one of the men who was leading us told us to move to the

17 right side of the road because Tuta was coming.

18 Q. Witness, I'm sorry. I'm going to interrupt your story there for a

19 moment. My apology. Before we continue to that, was there anything about

20 these soldiers that you've identified as Tuta's soldiers that stood out to

21 you in terms of the way they were dressed or the way they conducted

22 themselves, the way they were equipped, that was different than other HVO

23 soldiers that you saw during this time?

24 A. As I was able to observe, most of the soldiers were very young,

25 between 25 and 30 years of age. They all had very short hair and very

Page 1236

1 good uniforms, which were different from uniforms of other HVO soldiers.

2 They had different vests and ammunition belts. And they were much better

3 equipped. I mean, they were equipped in a different way than other

4 soldiers, and we realised that they were members of some special unit,

5 that they were not just ordinary soldiers, because there were quite a few

6 elderly people with the HVO who guarded us.

7 Q. Now, by this time, you had been held in HVO captivity for some

8 months. Can you tell the Chamber, please: Did Tuta's men have any

9 particular reputation, or can you give us your observation about the way

10 they treated Muslim prisoners?

11 A. As for the group where I was, near that command post, we were

12 there with HVO soldiers for a very long period of time, so later on we

13 were not mistreated or anything. We had three meals per day, we had

14 cigarettes. But when this other unit came, when Tuta's men came, they

15 were very rude. As I said, they threw stones at us, they threw away the

16 cigarettes that had been given to us by the HVO. Yes, that's all.

17 Q. All right. Now, I interrupted you, sir, and I apologise. Looking

18 back at your testimony - I'm only quoting now - I interrupted you when you

19 said, "One of the men who was leading us told us to move to the right side

20 of the road because Tuta was coming." Now, can you pick up the story

21 there, please. What happened?

22 A. It was a very narrow road, actually, just a path, and this soldier

23 spoke to us and he told us to move to the right-hand side, still carrying

24 ammunition boxes. And Tuta came with two other soldiers, one walking in

25 front of him, the other behind him. They were carrying rifles. And Tuta

Page 1237

1 said, "Let the people with the ammunition pass."

2 Q. What was your observation, Witness, about these two soldiers that

3 were travelling on the trail with Tuta? What did their role appear to you

4 to be?

5 A. I personally think that those two soldiers - at least, that's what

6 they seemed to me, were bodyguards - and also because of the manner they

7 were walking. Tuta was in the middle. They were walking in front of him,

8 or behind him, and with their rifles pointing up, and I thought that they

9 were his bodyguards. They were very well-built people, very strong men.

10 Q. Now, what happened next after Tuta said to let those of you who

11 were -- the prisoners carrying ammunition, when he said, "Let the

12 prisoners pass"? What happened next?

13 A. When we passed that portion of the path, we went to the left from

14 the relay and we ran into another group of soldiers, Tuta's soldiers, and

15 HVO soldiers as well, and we headed towards the elevation point. We were

16 listening to the shooting and we were moving towards where the shooting

17 was coming from. And when we were some 50 metres away from that front

18 line, I realised that we were the first captives carrying ammunition that

19 came there and that the soldiers were only taking their positions. We

20 were some three to five metres from the contact line between HVO and the

21 BH army, and we were made to fill that ammunition -- to fill the clips

22 with the ammunition that we had carried. The shooting was constant, and I

23 had to open the ammunition box and I had to replenish the ammunition clips

24 for two other HVO soldiers while the shooting was going on.

25 Q. Can you tell us: Was there a time, Witness, when your position

Page 1238












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Page 1239

1 was in front of, if you will, in front of the HVO soldiers, so that you

2 were essentially positioned in the fire between the ABiH side and the HVO

3 side?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Before we leave Tuta, Witness, can you please describe the man, as

6 best you can, that you saw that day come down the trail with two HVO

7 soldiers.

8 A. I was carrying an ammunition box on my shoulders, and when we

9 moved to the right, I lifted my hand and I saw the first soldier who was

10 holding the gun. He had a black bandanna on his head and a camouflage

11 uniform. Tuta was walking behind him. He had grey hair and a beard, and

12 he wore, as far as I can remember, a camouflage uniform at that point.

13 And if I may add something: Since it happened eight years ago, I hope

14 that you will understand that I cannot remember many more details, but I'm

15 sure that I saw him and I'm sure about what I saw.

16 Q. Very well. Now, I think we've covered that event, sir, but let me

17 look at my notes for a moment, please. Well, just to conclude on this

18 topic: When you became oriented, if you will, of where you were in

19 position to [sic] the front line and where you had seen Tuta, were you

20 able to make any observations or reach conclusions as to what direction

21 Tuta was coming from when you encountered him on the trail? Where was he

22 coming from and where were you going to, as far as you could see?

23 A. At that moment we were walking towards the front line, not

24 directly to the front line. There is a clearing just before the front

25 line, and I think that Tuta probably arrived from the same direction

Page 1240

1 together with those two men.

2 Q. All right. Now, going ahead, then, let me direct your attention

3 to about 15 days later. Were you at another position near Dreznica,

4 digging in the ground to make what might be described as a tank-firing

5 position?

6 A. We worked there for two or three days. We were digging a

7 tank-firing position and also a position for a Zis cannon or gun.

8 Q. Can you just briefly tell the Chamber, please: Around this time,

9 had the prisoners expressed concerns or complaints about not having been

10 fed, not having any food?

11 A. Once we were not given any food when we were performing labour,

12 and we were hungry. Actually, in most of the cases, most of the time

13 while I was detained in the camp, I was hungry.

14 Q. All right. And let me ask you: This location, by the way, was

15 this near some artillery that you understood belonged to Tuta's unit?

16 A. As for the artillery, Tuta's soldiers fired from the Zis. I was

17 there in the immediate vicinity, and they were making a lot of errors in

18 targeting. They were missing, so they were obviously very upset, and they

19 kept cursing all the time.

20 Q. Now, going back to the lack of food, can you tell us, please:

21 Around this time, did there come some point that in fact some food was

22 delivered to the prisoners?

23 A. While we were working there, we didn't have anything to eat. We

24 didn't eat. I was on a hill filling some kind of sandbags, and from some

25 prisoners we got biscuits and juice. And I asked him, "Where did you get

Page 1241

1 that from?" and he said Tuta and his soldiers had given it to him. And

2 when I asked him where from, he said, "From over there, from the other

3 side of the hill," and that they had come in a jeep.

4 Q. All right. Now, Witness, moving to another location, at the end

5 of December 1993, were you taken then to the Heliodrom?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And you were held at the Heliodrom then for some period of time;

8 correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Now, was there a particular HVO military police guard that was

11 particularly abusive of the prisoners? And if you can tell us -- if you

12 can identify him, please, and just give us a few words about that.

13 A. During my detention in the Heliodrom, from the prisoners who had

14 been there already, we learnt about the situation, and we were warned of a

15 military policeman by the name of Marijanovic, who was very arrogant. He

16 was the worst among the military policemen. And when he was on duty, no

17 one could relax, because should he make a slip of any kind, he would be

18 beaten.

19 Q. Now, in about January of 1994, sir, were you taken from the

20 Heliodrom to Mostar, where you stayed for approximately one month

21 performing various forced labour?

22 A. Yes. I was taken in the evening - I don't remember the date - in

23 a Zastava truck. A soldier came to fetch us by the name of Luka. Twenty

24 of us prisoners were driven to the Ero Hotel and we were put up there.

25 Q. During the time that you were held at the Ero Hotel in Mostar,

Page 1242

1 were you taken to various locations in Mostar to perform forced labour?

2 A. Yes.

3 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction. It is the atomic

4 shelter of the Hotel Ero that the prisoners were held in.

5 MR. SCOTT: Very well. Thank you.

6 Q. When you say -- it was just a correction, Witness, and in terms

7 of -- were you held at some place like a bomb shelter? There was some

8 sort of a bomb shelter at the Hotel Ero where you and the other prisoners

9 were held?

10 A. Yes. It was a shelter against a nuclear attack, with very thick

11 walls, and we had bunkers inside like they have on boats. There was no

12 toilet; however, they gave us some plastic pots. But we couldn't empty

13 them by taking them outside, but we used our bare hands to collect

14 excrement. And no cleaning was done for seven or ten days, so the

15 excrement was there all the time and it smelled terribly.

16 Q. During this time that you were being held at this location, in

17 addition to the approximately 20 prisoners that you were taken with, is it

18 approximately accurate that altogether there were about 80 prisoners being

19 held at this location you just described at Hotel Ero?

20 A. Yes. Yes.

21 Q. All right. Now, a moment ago I asked you, were you taken for

22 forced labour, is that correct, and you were?

23 A. Yes. Yes, we were taken.

24 Q. Do you recall working on a location at a place called Santiceva

25 Street?

Page 1243

1 A. Yes, we did work there, and our group, in fact, was assigned to

2 that particular street, Santic Street.

3 Q. And what were some of the things that you were required to do

4 there, please?

5 A. We had to fill sandbags with sand, and they weighed between 70 or

6 80 to 100 kilogrammes. One prisoner would carry the sandbag, and we were

7 building positions there.

8 We had to break down walls for better communication, to shorten

9 the front line. We dug trenches. And we took part as human shields. We

10 were used as human shields.

11 Q. In that regard, were there times when, because of the weapons fire

12 that was going on, that various of the prisoners were shot?

13 A. During operations between the HVO and BH army, there were quite a

14 number of prisoners who were wounded. There were even some who were

15 killed. But in most cases, not only linked to Mostar and the Heliodrom,

16 prisoners were killed by the HVO, so that one of the soldiers would open

17 fire on the prisoners, and when one of the prisoners fell, was shot and

18 was killed, they would say that it was the BH army who had killed him,

19 but, in fact, we knew that it was the HVO who had shot at them.

20 Q. Did you in fact see the bodies of killed Muslim prisoners?

21 A. Yes, I did.

22 Q. Now, witness, can you also tell us, were you required to approach

23 ABiH, or suspected ABiH positions, and throw explosives inside?

24 A. That is correct. I had to throw explosives at BH positions.

25 There would be so-called two soaps linked together. It depended on the

Page 1244

1 number of explosives I was given. They would show me where I had to throw

2 it. I had to do it. Otherwise I would have been beaten and certainly

3 killed. And they would always ask me what was my last wish, and I said,

4 if I was killed, that my body be pulled out, my parents informed, and

5 buried when the war ended. They would give me a pause of 15 or 20

6 minutes, then I had to go and throw explosives again through doors and

7 entrances that were closed. This group was held by younger guys who wore

8 earrings and took drugs. They would give me hand grenades, they would

9 give me a real grenade, and they would target me with two RPGs and three

10 snipers, and they would send me to throw these grenades directly at the BH

11 army bunkers. After I threw the bomb, the BH army would return the fire,

12 and that is how it worked.

13 Q. Very well. All right. Witness, while you were being held at the

14 Hotel Ero, you said earlier there were approximately 80 prisoners being

15 held there at the time, were there -- did it come to your knowledge or

16 could you observe that some of the witnesses -- I'm sorry, excuse me, that

17 some of the prisoners were identified to work with one particular HVO unit

18 and other prisoners were known to be working for some other, or other HVO

19 units?

20 A. Twenty of us, we were known as Luka's. When we went to work, they

21 would say, "Let the Luka's boys come out." And we all knew who was meant

22 by that. There were other detainees who slept with us there but I can't

23 now remember the names of those other groups, how they were referred to.

24 Q. Witness, do you recall one of the groups or some of the prisoners

25 being referred to during this time as Stela's group?

Page 1245

1 A. Yes, yes. We heard that there was Stela's group, Luka's group,

2 Zele's group. That is how we recognised one another amongst ourselves.

3 We knew which side we had to go to.

4 MR. SCOTT: All right. Mr. Fourmy, I believe I'm on my last topic

5 and I believe we should be able to finish before the break.

6 Q. Witness, I'm going to turn to one last part of your testimony,

7 please. In addition to all the other things that you were told -- that

8 you've told us this morning, were you ever forced to engage in looting

9 while you were being held in Mostar?

10 A. During my stay in Mostar, we went out in smaller groups, up to

11 five prisoners, and we carried out various goods from apartments. I don't

12 know the town of Mostar so I can't tell you which streets and whose

13 apartments we went into.

14 Q. How would the HVO soldiers that were with you, how would they

15 enter these apartments or flats?

16 A. We mostly entered -- they knew the flats that were empty. There

17 was no one inside. In some areas, we had to enter quietly so that the

18 neighbours would not hear us, who the neighbours were, I don't know, but

19 we were not allowed to make any noise as we carried things out and we had

20 to keep our voices very down so that nobody would hear us.

21 Q. How do you know -- do you know how the HVO soldiers would know

22 which apartments were empty?

23 A. In most cases, we went straight to the apartment and as we were

24 heading towards it, they would tell us, "Don't make a noise here," and,

25 "Don't talk here," so we knew by what we were told that we shouldn't go

Page 1246

1 in to certain places. And most of these operations took place at night.

2 Q. Now, what would you do with the items that were taken out of the

3 apartments?

4 A. We would load them on to trucks and then they would be driven to

5 various destinations in the town of Mostar. We didn't go any further. We

6 would simply load them on to a truck, take them to another apartment or

7 deliver to another person. I don't know who that person was. And then we

8 would go back again to the shelter at the Ero Hotel.

9 Q. All right. Witness, can you tell us was there at least one

10 occasion when a group of you that were looting with some HVO soldiers that

11 some police came and stopped the looting?

12 A. One day, we were rounded up and driven to a building and we were

13 collecting dishes, cutlery -- there were lots of things, a sofa, a

14 cupboard and things like that. And we prisoners were carrying these items

15 down the steps to the truck which was parked in front of the building. As

16 I was first, as I came out, there were five or six policemen with small

17 rifles standing in a semicircle, and they told me to put the things down

18 and go to the left, which I did. And as each of the prisoners came down,

19 that is what we did. We put down the stuff and we went to the left-hand

20 side. They gave us a box -- a pact of cigarettes. We waited. And then

21 Luka and Azra came down, that was the name I knew him by. The police took

22 them away for 15 or 20 minutes, they talked to them. When they came back,

23 we had to carry the stuff back into the apartment and then we went back to

24 the shelter.

25 Q. Witness, I have about two final questions, then. These police

Page 1247

1 that stopped this, can you tell us, were they civilian police or military

2 police or do you know anything more about the type of police they were?

3 A. They were policemen wearing blue uniforms so civilian policemen

4 with blue berets, blue jackets, belts, the standard police with insignia.

5 Q. And it may or may not seem obvious, but just so the record is

6 clear, sir, were these Croat police officers or Muslim police officers?

7 A. It was the Croatian police. I'm talking about the Bosnian Croat

8 when I say Croatian, Bosnian Croat.

9 Q. All right. Final question, apart from the soldiers being forced

10 to return these stolen items to the apartment, do you have any knowledge

11 whether these soldiers were ever -- these HVO soldiers were ever punished

12 or disciplined because they had been looting the apartment?

13 A. I don't know about that. Actually, after the camp, I went back to

14 Bosnia, and after that, I never went to Mostar again.

15 MR. SCOTT: Very well. Witness, thank you very much.

16 Mr. Fourmy, that concludes our exam.

17 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Prosecutor. I would

18 now suggest we have a short break to give you a chance to take a breather

19 before the Defence begins its cross-examination.

20 Mr. Usher, will you accompany the witness out, please? And we

21 will resume at ten past 11.00.

22 I don't know how the Defence wishes to organise themselves. I

23 also don't know whether Mr. Krsnik and Mr. Seric prefer to stay where you

24 are or do you wish to take up another position closer to the witness.

25 It's up to you. So we will have a break until ten past 11.00.

Page 1248

1 --- Recess taken at 10.47 a.m.

2 --- On resuming at 11.15 a.m.

3 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] We will continue with the hearing.

4 Please be seated.

5 Mr. Hadzisalihovic, it is now the turn of the Defence to ask you

6 questions. I think that Mr. Krsnik or Ms. Lasan will take the floor.

7 Ms. Lasan, you have the floor. Your witness.

8 MS. LASAN: [Interpretation] I apologise for this minor technical

9 problem, but I would like to face the witness so that we can see each

10 other directly.

11 Cross-examined by Ms. Lasan:

12 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, good morning. My name is Visnja

13 Drenski-Lasan, I'm co-counsel in the Defence team of Mr. Naletilic, and I

14 will now ask you a few questions.

15 MS. LASAN: [Interpretation] I don't think it's necessary to move

16 into private session right away. However, after the first set of my

17 questions, I will ask you to move into private session because we will be

18 dealing with some information which is directly linked to the witness.

19 Q. Witness, you have spoken today about a number of locations in

20 Bosnia and Herzegovina. So that the Chamber is clear on these locations,

21 I should like to ask you to be more specific and tell us exactly where

22 they are located, in which municipality, and what is the distance between

23 them, according to your assessment. I don't think it will be difficult

24 for you, and I think we will be able to handle this particular issue.

25 Let us start with the place of your arrest. You stated you had

Page 1249












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13 and the English transcripts.













Page 1250

1 been arrested in the municipality of Zavidovici, and in response to the

2 Prosecutor's question, you said that it was north to central, in the north

3 to central part of Bosnia; is that correct?

4 A. Yes, except that it is the municipality of Maglaj.

5 Q. Yes, Witness. You're quite right. I apologise. Could you tell

6 us about the village of Radunice, please. Where is it located?

7 A. I believe it is located in the municipality of Zavidovici.

8 Q. What is the distance between the place of your arrest and the

9 municipality of Maglaj and the village of Radunice?

10 A. Fifteen kilometres, approximately.

11 Q. What did you say? Two hundred?

12 A. No, no, no. Fifteen kilometres.

13 Q. The next place that you indicated is the village of Perkovici. In

14 which municipality is the village of Perkovici located, or rather, in the

15 vicinity of which town?

16 A. In the municipality of Maglaj.

17 Q. So the same municipality as the one you were arrested in, the

18 municipality of Maglaj?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Would it not be the municipality of Zepce, rather?

21 A. After the HVO attack and the takeover of the municipality of

22 Maglaj, it became the municipality of Zepce. However, before the war it

23 was the Maglaj municipality.

24 Q. What is the distance in kilometres between the village of Radunice

25 and the village of Perkovici?

Page 1251

1 A. We drove by car for about 15 minutes, so it shouldn't be more than

2 30 kilometres away.

3 Q. So that would have been the distance of 30 kilometres,

4 approximately, more or less?

5 A. Do you wish me to explain?

6 Q. No, I don't think that's necessary, Witness. You stated that

7 after that you were taken to Bosansko Grahovo.

8 A. Yes, I was.

9 Q. How far is the town of Bosansko Grahovo from the village of

10 Perkovici?

11 A. We went through the territory of Republika Srpska. We drove for

12 two days and three nights by car.

13 Q. How many kilometres would that be? How many kilometres would you

14 have covered?

15 A. I don't know.

16 Q. Could you tell us: The village of Perkovici, towards Grahovo, how

17 is it situated in respect of Bosansko Grahovo? Are we still in Central

18 Bosnia or not, in the village of Perkovici?

19 A. The village of Perkovici is situated in Central Bosnia, the

20 northern part of Central Bosnia.

21 Q. And in relation to that, where is Bosansko Grahovo located?

22 A. I can tell you the towns we passed on our way.

23 Q. If you would do that, please?

24 A. After Perkovici we went to Malusa, Het [pheon], Pasic, Banja Luka,

25 Titov Drvar, and then we drove vertically down to Bosansko Grahovo from

Page 1252

1 Titov Drvar where we spent the night.

2 Q. In the vicinity of which state is that?

3 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Ms. Lasan, I think this exercise

4 seems a bit surrealistic to me. I think it would be far easier for the

5 witness to present him with a geographic map and we would need only

6 minutes to cover this particular area. We can have the map placed on the

7 ELMO, everybody will be able to see it, and the witness will be able to

8 understand where these localities are. I know -- I'm bearing in mind the

9 remark made by Mr. Krsnik, but I think it would be enough here to have a

10 geographical map and we will be able to follow you. It will be much

11 easier for us and it will be easier for you. And I think that the matter

12 will be much more comprehensible for a reasonable listener. Or maybe

13 I'm -- I do not sound like a reasonable listener, but I don't know what

14 you think of this proposal, Ms. Lasan.

15 MS. LASAN: [Interpretation] Mr. Fourmy, I do understand the

16 matter would be much easier for you with a map. However -- and I think of

17 course it would be easier for the witness as well, because he would have

18 the names of various localities in front of him, regions, towns, villages,

19 rivers and various other points. But that is the reason why the map has

20 not been shown to the witness.

21 During the examination-in-chief, the witness mentioned a number of

22 localities in which he stayed for various periods of time, so for the

23 purpose of verifying the truthfulness of witness testimony and by

24 comparing the locations as they are on the map, I am trying to verify --

25 I'm trying to check what the witness has stated in his

Page 1253

1 examination-in-chief, and how truthful and accurate his testimony was.

2 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] I think that there is a huge

3 difference in quoting names of towns. I can tell you a number of towns

4 but I am unable to place them all on the map. I really don't see how your

5 procedure will allow the judges to assess the credibility of the witness.

6 If you ask me if I know where the town of Ulan Bator is, you know the

7 town, I know the town, but I don't think I'm able to locate the town on

8 the map. If you ask me precisely where it is, excuse my ignorance, it may

9 not be reasonable, but I would be -- I wouldn't be able to find it on the

10 map. I know that there is a town like that, I know that it exists, but of

11 course you know what you want to achieve with this way of asking

12 questions. I, however, am not quite clear as to the objective of this.

13 We keep discovering new things in this case. Of course, you can use the

14 documents belonging to the Prosecution. You're not obliged to use your

15 own documents. Certain documents are already in the case file. Please

16 continue.

17 I'm sorry, Mr. Prosecutor?

18 MR. SCOTT: Mr. Fourmy, just a moment. I'm not going to belabour

19 this but two things. Mr. Fourmy, that's why -- this issue is exactly why

20 I went to some pains to be very clear about the geography, and that we

21 were in fact -- if you will recall, I said that we were covering certain

22 matters quickly because they were not particularly -- the background was

23 not particularly central to this part of the case, and I thought I was

24 clear, and there was no intent to mislead anyone, that we were not talking

25 in those early parts about Herzegovina or Ljubuski or Mostar, and I

Page 1254

1 specifically asked the witness, when we got to that part, when he was at -

2 forgive me - Vitina, that now we were in the area of Ljubuski, and that

3 was more in the area that's more central to the case. And I tried to make

4 that clear. If I didn't, I apologise. If the Defence counsel thinks it

5 would assist further, they can certainly refer the Chamber to Exhibit 2,

6 Prosecution Exhibit P2, which is a map of the most relevant parts, if you

7 will, of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and if that assists, then so much the

8 better. But the only reason I went through that particular area quite

9 quickly was just to move on to the central part of the case. Thank you.

10 MS. LASAN: [Interpretation] I quite understand what my learned

11 friend wanted in his examination-in-chief, but I have my own reasons why

12 I'm asking this witness in this way. The witness has been living in

13 Bosnia-Herzegovina his whole life. He's familiar with the area and he's

14 not talking about unfamiliar places. Furthermore, there are localities

15 with the same names, and that is why it was important for me to find out

16 where exactly the witness was when he was testifying. This won't take

17 long, so allow me to finish, please.

18 Q. So you came to Bosansko Grahovo and after that, you were

19 transferred to Ljubuski. What is the distance between Bosansko Grahovo

20 and Ljubuski?

21 A. I don't know because I don't come from those parts.

22 Q. How long did the trip take?

23 A. About one hour, two. Let me point out, through Republika Srpska

24 to the HVO territory when we were transferred to other HVO buses.

25 Q. And after that, how much longer did the trip take, three hours,

Page 1255

1 five hours?

2 A. I don't know.

3 MS. LASAN: [Interpretation] Could we now go into private session,

4 please?

5 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Madam Registrar, please.

6 [Private session]

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 1256













13 page 1256 redacted, private session.













Page 1257













13 page 1257 redacted, private session.













Page 1258

1 (redacted)

2 [Open session]

3 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] We are in open session, Ms. Lasan.


5 Q. [Interpretation] In your statement for the OTP, you said that on

6 the 15th of May 1992, you had joined the B H army; is that correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Which unit specifically did you join?

9 A. The TO, the Territorial Defence.

10 Q. Was that the Territorial Defence or was it the BH army?

11 A. At first it was the TO, and later it was the BH army.

12 Q. So you were not telling the truth when you told the Prosecution

13 that?

14 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Ms. Lasan, please make a pause

15 between the questions and the answers.

16 Witness, I appreciate very much the speed with which you are

17 answering the questions but in view of the interpretation, could you pause

18 a while before giving your answer?

19 And Ms. Lasan, will you also wait a moment before going on to your

20 next question? Thank you.


22 Q. [Interpretation] So you told an untruth when you said that you

23 were a member of the BH army on the 15th of May 1992? You were actually a

24 member of the TO?

25 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Ms. Lasan, please. You should put

Page 1259

1 questions and not make conclusions. I think we agreed about that. Thank

2 you.

3 MS. LASAN: [Interpretation] Let me repeat the question.

4 Q. When you spoke to the Office of the Prosecutor, you said that you

5 joined the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina on the 15th of May 1992?

6 A. Until the 15th of May, 1992, it was the TO. From that date on,

7 the BH acquired the official name of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina. The

8 TO was abolished.

9 Q. Okay. Then when did you become a member of the TO?

10 A. I was on village guard duty for about two months, but this has not

11 been registered as part of my service, wartime service.

12 Q. Who were all the members of the TO?

13 A. Men from 16 to 60 years of age.

14 Q. Tell me, please: Were your local Croat neighbours members of the

15 TO?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Who was in the TO?

18 A. Only Muslims.

19 Q. Who gave you weapons when you were in the TO?

20 A. I didn't have a weapon. I used a hunting rifle.

21 Q. So you used a hunting weapon. Whose weapon was it and what was

22 it?

23 A. Weapons collected by the locals. You know well that the Serbs had

24 an army. The HVO was armed by -- I don't know exactly by whom, and we

25 Muslims had no one to give it to us.

Page 1260












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13 and the English transcripts.













Page 1261

1 Q. Which Muslim had a hunting rifle that you used in the TO?

2 A. I don't know the name.

3 Q. How many Muslims were there in the same position in your village?

4 A. I don't know.

5 Q. Will you please describe the hunting weapon that you used during

6 those two months.

7 A. It was a rifle of 16-millimetre calibre, double-barrel rifle of

8 16-millimetre calibre.

9 Q. When you became a member of the BH army on the 15th of May, 1992,

10 were you issued a weapon?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Were you given a uniform?

13 A. No. They didn't have any.

14 Q. How, then, did you get hold of the weapon with which you were

15 arrested on the 25th of June, 1993?

16 A. The weapons we used on the lines against the Serbs, the carbine I

17 was arrested with is the property of my uncle.

18 Q. You were not arrested on a village road but in the woods. What

19 were you doing in the woods?

20 A. We were arrested on a path 200 metres from my house, or rather, in

21 a meadow, and above the meadow are the woods.

22 Q. How many persons were you arrested by?

23 A. We first heard the order that we should throw down our weapons,

24 and then later about 15 soldiers.

25 Q. In answer to a question from the Prosecution, you said that you

Page 1262

1 had known some of them. Tell us the names of those you knew among those

2 who arrested you.

3 A. As far as the arrest is concerned, I knew four or five of them

4 from school. (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted), and behind him, about a

19 hundred metres behind him, was a machine-gun nest with HVO soldiers

20 wearing black uniforms. And when I was captured, they complained that for

21 three days they had been behind our backs while we were holding the lines

22 towards the Serbs.

23 Q. Who sent you to the left? Tell me: You said you went to the

24 left. Who sent you there?

25 A. No one sent us there. This was just like that, out of curiosity,

Page 1263

1 and this was a major blunder on our part.

2 Q. So out of curiosity, you walked around the village, under arms,

3 looking for nests?

4 A. We didn't know that for three days Croats were stationed behind

5 our backs, behind our houses.

6 Q. Very well. Tell me, please: When you joined the BH army, were

7 you given any training?

8 A. I hadn't served in the JNA. I was too young. And I had ten days

9 of training in a village.

10 Q. Near Maglaj? What was the name of the village?

11 A. Tunjica.

12 Q. And who trained you?

13 A. Soldiers.

14 Q. Which soldiers? Give us a name of one of them.

15 A. I can't remember the name.

16 Q. Were they ordinary soldiers or were they senior officers with

17 ranks?

18 A. Mostly command officers, yes.

19 Q. You can't remember a single name?

20 A. No.

21 Q. How many young men like you underwent training together with you

22 during those ten days?

23 A. About 50.

24 Q. So it was a training centre, was it?

25 A. Yes, a temporary centre.

Page 1264

1 Q. Were you trained in the use of weapons, how a weapon is used?

2 A. Yes. Training in the use of automatic weapons.

3 Q. What do you mean when you say "automatic weapon"?

4 A. An automatic rifle AK-47.

5 Q. Was there training in any other weapons apart from that?

6 A. The army didn't have weapons, so we couldn't have training.

7 Q. When you formally became a member of the BH army, as you said,

8 what kind of insignia did you wear on your uniforms?

9 A. I didn't.

10 Q. Did some other soldiers have insignia?

11 A. The standard insignia was the lily coat of arms, in blue, and two

12 crossed swords.

13 Q. So it is blue?

14 A. On a white background and a blue coat of arms. I don't know if

15 you're familiar with our coat of arms, the former one.

16 Q. How many members were there in your unit, without us naming it, in

17 view of what we discussed in private session?

18 A. Where?

19 Q. When the Prosecution was examining you, you told him the name of

20 the unit you belonged to. Let me remind you, it is not the same brigade

21 that has already been discussed in this Tribunal but another one under the

22 same name. So my question is: How many men were there in the unit that

23 you moved around with?

24 A. About 20.

25 Q. Had they all undergone the same training in this place that you

Page 1265

1 mentioned, starting with T?

2 A. Only the two of us, me and Buraic, because we hadn't been trained

3 by the JNA.

4 Q. So all the others had not been trained because they had been

5 trained by the former army while doing their military service?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Tell me, please: When you were describing the event during your

8 stay in Vitina, you mentioned a vineyard there as the place where you were

9 located. You mentioned, in answer to a question from the Prosecution,

10 that there were soldiers there from Dubrovnik and that one of them said he

11 would inform your family, and then you mentioned him contacting Rijeka.

12 Tell me, please: Did you ask that man, when you communicated with him,

13 when he mentioned that he had family there, that he would do you a

14 service, did he tell you his name?

15 A. I would like to point out that I didn't meet him in Vitina but at

16 Gola Brda, near Stolac. That is the exact location. I was at first

17 afraid to tell him that I had family members in Rijeka, because there are

18 cases --

19 Q. Excuse me for interrupting you. My question is: Did the man tell

20 you his name and could you describe him for me: how old he was, what he

21 looked like?

22 A. At the time, the man was about 40 years old. He was dark, with a

23 receding hairline; he had a black moustache; of medium build.

24 Q. Do you know his name?

25 A. No, I don't.

Page 1266

1 Q. When you were taken to Gola Brda, you were guarded by HVO

2 soldiers. Could you name any one of those soldiers who guarded you there?

3 A. I cannot.

4 Q. Can you name any one of the prisoners who was with you at Gola

5 Brda?

6 A. With me was Muharem Salickrcan [phoen].

7 THE INTERPRETER: We can hardly hear the witness. I'm sorry.

8 A. There were some others names, but we never really knew our proper

9 names. We called each other by nicknames. Ninety per cent of the people

10 know me as Bosanac, because if I was to say that my name was Sulejman, I

11 would be slapped, because it's a Turkish name, they said.

12 MS. LASAN: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Tell me, please, when you were in Vresnica - in Dreznica,

14 sorry - you said that the BH army attacked HVO units that were there. The

15 BH army held the relay and was attacking HVO units from those positions.

16 A. The BH army did not control the relay. It was the HVO who had

17 control over the relay. Now, how the army attacked, I don't know. I just

18 know that it did, because there was no one else who could have attacked

19 from that side.

20 Q. You said that on that occasion, that is, during the attack, you

21 met Tuta, that he was accompanied by two bodyguards, and you said that you

22 were carrying something on your back and that Tuta said, "Move away and

23 let --" "Move to the left," rather, so that the people carrying

24 ammunition could pass.

25 A. Yes.

Page 1267

1 Q. Those were the words he used?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. You remember those words very well?

4 A. Yes, quite well.

5 Q. I have to ask you this for the record, because at one point my

6 learned friend from the Prosecution who was examining you distorted those

7 words, saying, "Let the prisoners pass."

8 A. I don't see the difference. He simply said that we should pass.

9 Q. So can we agree that the man said - because I took down carefully

10 what you said, and you have confirmed this for me - Tuta said, "Move to

11 the left so that the people with the ammunition can pass." Those were the

12 words he used. Those are the only words you heard him use?

13 A. Yes, that is all. Let me explain.

14 Q. You said that you saw two bodyguards, and you described them.

15 Just a moment, please. You described those bodyguards and you said that

16 you concluded that they were bodyguards because one went in front of Tuta

17 and the other one behind him, that they were athletically built men and

18 that they had their rifles raised. You also say that you inferred from

19 all that that they were his bodyguards.

20 A. I use the word "bodyguard." Whether they were his personal

21 bodyguards or just two soldiers passing by, I don't know.

22 Q. So actually you were devoting more attention to them than to Tuta?

23 A. When I looked, I first saw the soldier and Tuta in the middle, and

24 as we were passing by each other, Tuta and me were just next to one

25 another, like this. The distance between us was not greater than this.

Page 1268

1 Q. You described Tuta as a man with longish hair, of some 40 years of

2 age. Everything you said has entered into the record, and that is as much

3 as you remember regarding Tuta's appearance on that day?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Did that man introduce himself to you and say, "I am Tuta"?

6 A. He did not, but the soldier leading us said, "Here comes Tuta,"

7 and by the behavior of the soldiers, I knew it was Tuta.

8 Q. Will you tell me the name of the soldier who said, "Here comes

9 Tuta"?

10 A. Goran.

11 Q. Where is that Goran from? What unit is he from? Was he one of

12 the ones who brought you there?

13 A. He was from Grude.

14 Q. He brought you to that location where all this was happening? He

15 was escorting you?

16 A. On that day, yes.

17 Q. What kind of uniform was he wearing, this Goran?

18 A. An ordinary camouflage uniform.

19 Q. And was this same kind of ordinary uniform worn by the man they

20 said was Tuta?

21 A. I don't understand.

22 Q. You said Goran said, "Here comes Tuta."

23 A. Yes, and that we should move to the right.

24 Q. The man he was referring to and that you think was Tuta, he was

25 also wearing a regular camouflage uniform?

Page 1269

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Did you notice any insignia on that uniform?

3 A. He had the insignia of the HVO.

4 Q. You also mentioned another incident linked to Tuta, linked to

5 biscuits and juice. You said today that one of the prisoners came and

6 said, "There are some biscuits and juices over there. Tuta provided

7 them."

8 A. He brought some biscuits and juice to us, and I asked, "Where did

9 that come from?" and he said, "Tuta provided it."

10 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Ms. Lasan, please. I'm sorry for

11 interrupting you, but please make pauses at least between the answer and

12 your next question. We need these interpreters. We need for them to

13 survive at least until the end of this week, so please bear that in mind.

14 MS. LASAN: [Interpretation] Thank you. I'll do my best.

15 Q. Tell me, please, the name of the person who brought the biscuits

16 and juices, this other prisoner who told you that.

17 A. Ekrem.

18 Q. So you were located somewhere. Where? Where exactly were you

19 located and where did that Ekrem come from?

20 A. We were rounded up to go and work and dig in this tank and

21 cannon. We were all detainees, and he was a detainee. We went to the

22 village of Dreznica. In my opinion, it is about 14 kilometres inside the

23 mountain, and we were very close to the village, on a feature whose name I

24 don't know.

25 Q. And where was Ekrem?

Page 1270

1 A. We were there some 50 metres or 20 metres away the way we were

2 assigned to work, us prisoners.

3 Q. So the distance could have been about 50 metres from this place

4 that Ekrem came from, he brought this stuff and that is what he said.

5 Tell me did Ekrem say that he had seen Tuta?

6 A. He, Ekrem said that Tuta had come in a jeep and taken out the

7 biscuits and the juice. These are the words used by Ekrem.

8 Q. Can you tell us the surname of that Ekrem?

9 A. I don't know.

10 Q. What did he look like?

11 A. He was not very tall. He was fair. He had a rather pointed

12 nose. He was rather slim, thin, small man.

13 Q. Tell me: Is Ekrem from your area?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Could you tell by his dialect what part of Bosnia he was?

16 A. He was from Teslic.

17 Q. Tell me, please: After you were released from the camp, you

18 reactivated as a soldier?

19 A. No. Can I tell you?

20 Q. When you were in the Ero Hotel, you said that there were some kind

21 of groups of prisoners and that in your group, there were about 20

22 persons. Could you please name some of them?

23 A. There was Edo. Just a moment, please. Edo known as Zgura; he was

24 a Bosnian like me. There was a Mustafa from Bugojno. There were people

25 from Seher, but I can't remember their names now.

Page 1271












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

13 and the English transcripts.













Page 1272

1 Q. Luka was not amongst you?

2 A. Luka was an HVO soldier who was our superior. We had to obey his

3 orders as to where and what we should do.

4 Q. So it was after him that you were known as Luka's group?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. What kind of uniform did Luka wear?

7 A. Camouflage trousers, boots, and he mostly wore a camouflage,

8 longish jacket with a hood.

9 Q. What kind of an insignia did he have?

10 A. I think that he didn't wear any insignia.

11 Q. Do you know which unit he belonged to, which unit of the HVO?

12 A. I don't know that. I didn't dare ask him because I was a

13 prisoner, not a tourist.

14 Q. During your testimony -- actually, in your statement given to the

15 OTP, you said that while you were in Grude, members of the HVO who were

16 detaining you there were the so-called Crnokosuljasi; that is that they

17 wore black shirts?

18 A. No, I don't know about Grude. I only spent there two hours

19 loading some goods. And it was at Vrde that I encountered Crnokosuljasi.

20 Q. Why did you call them that, because they wore black shirts?

21 A. They wore black uniforms. They were the so-called Ustashas

22 Crnokosuljasi.

23 Q. That is why you called them that way?

24 A. Yes, of course. HVO soldiers called them Crnokosuljasi. I could

25 not use any other name.

Page 1273

1 Q. How many were they compared to the overall strength of the HVO

2 units there?

3 A. They were not there throughout that period of time at Vrde.

4 Q. I'm sorry, that was not my question. There was a total number of

5 Croatian soldiers there, but there were also the black shirts, so I would

6 like to know the ratio of the black shirts compared to the overall number

7 of HVO soldiers there?

8 A. They were 10 to 15, between 10 and 15 people, not per cent,

9 wearing black shirts, wearing black uniforms.

10 Q. So compared to the overall number of HVO soldiers, there were only

11 10 or 15?

12 A. Yes, but let me tell you why they were there.

13 Q. I'm not interested in that at this point.

14 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Ms. Lasan, would you please let the

15 witness finish his question since you already -- finish his answer since

16 you already asked that question? I'm sorry, I have not finished. I

17 apologise. I am just trying to tell you something. I try not to

18 intervene but I like to be able to finish something that I want to say. I

19 just wanted to hear this clarification. It might be useful, and it is, I

20 think, useful for the judges to have a clear record, not only regarding

21 the facts but also the credibility of the witness. So would you please

22 let the witness make the additional explanation that he wanted make and

23 then you can proceed with your cross-examination.

24 Sir, would you please tell us exactly what you wanted to say.

25 A. There were 30 of us prisoners in the village of Vrde. We worked

Page 1274

1 in groups of ten people, depending on the elevation point we were assigned

2 to by the HVO. And on one particular day - I don't recall the date any

3 more, I don't remember it - we were divided into three groups, and it was

4 raining heavily, and on that occasion, ten detainees escaped and 20 of us

5 remained. So those of us who remained, as long as it became known that

6 the others had escaped, and if we had known that they would escape, we

7 would have attempted the same too. The HVO came back and they brought us

8 back to the centre and they asked us whether we had any rifles or any hand

9 grenades or any other explosive devices, and we had no opportunity to

10 acquire those in any way because we would be killed if we were found in

11 possession of ammunition in any way.

12 So that evening, the black shirts arrived, they came to the

13 prison, and they asked for five volunteers. And they stated clearly that

14 we would beat them up. And I came out myself and five other people were

15 forced out. We were taken to the command post, we were interrogated

16 there. They put hand grenades in people's mouths. They fired their

17 weapon into Sakic's leg and another person came, I don't know who the

18 commander was, but he had replaced Mate from Grude. I was also

19 interrogated on that occasion. And people were made to undress and run

20 around the village naked, and they were stopped by -- people wanted to

21 know what they were doing, and the soldiers told them, "These balijas are

22 training." And the black shirts then tortured us. They were brought

23 there to interrogate us, to see -- to find out why those people had

24 escaped. I was there in the camp. I know what happened. And on that

25 night I lied in order to survive and not be killed. I lied that my family

Page 1275

1 had been killed by the Chetniks, and one black shirt believed my words and

2 he didn't beat me.

3 And it was only -- for me it was a matter of remaining alive. And

4 I thank God I experienced the whole event the way I did.

5 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Yes. You see, Ms. Lasan, sometimes

6 it is interesting to hear the witness to the end.

7 MS. LASAN: [Interpretation] I must apologise but because the

8 Prosecutor did not ask the witness anything about this particular fact, I

9 just wanted to know why the witness referred to that unit the way he did.

10 We have no further questions for this witness. Thank you.

11 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Yes, witness, was there anything that

12 you wanted to say?

13 A. Is this the end?

14 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] No, not yet. We should like to ask

15 you for some more patience because I think that Mr. Seric might have some

16 questions for you.

17 Ms. Lasan, your microphone.

18 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. Fourmy, but

19 the Defence of Mr. Martinovic has no questions for this witness because

20 nothing arose during his examination-in-chief which would necessitate any

21 cross-examination on our part.

22 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. Seric.

23 Mr. Prosecutor, do you have any additional questions for this

24 witness, please?

25 MR. SCOTT: Mr. Fourmy, I think I have two questions.

Page 1276

1 Re-examined by Mr. Scott:


3 Q. Sir, you were asked questions in cross-examination about the

4 statement about someone -- people getting out of the way, that Tuta said

5 something, "Let them pass." Let me just clarify: Who was it that was

6 carrying the ammunition.

7 A. The ammunition was carried by us prisoners.

8 Q. Muslim prisoners; correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. So in -- according to your testimony, when Tuta said, "Let the

11 persons carrying the ammunition pass," he was referring to you and the

12 other prisoners, wasn't he?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Now, there was a question raised about the identity of this person

15 that you saw that day as -- that you've called Tuta. Do you see this

16 person that you met that day called Tuta, do you see this person in the

17 courtroom?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Can you identify him? Can you describe what he's wearing today?

20 A. May I have a look at him?

21 Q. Yes, of course, and if you could look at this, witness, you've

22 just said that he's in the courtroom, and for the record we need to be

23 able to identify him so the record is clear. Would you look at him

24 please, whoever this is that you intend to identify, and describe how he

25 is dressed, please?

Page 1277

1 A. He's wearing a black suit, white shirt, a multi-coloured tie. His

2 hair is quite white and longish. He is wearing glasses. Is that enough?

3 MR. SCOTT: Mr. Fourmy, I ask the record reflect that the witness

4 has identified the defendant Naletilic. We have no further questions.

5 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. Prosecutor.

6 Mr. Hadzisalihovic, thank you very much for your deposition. We

7 have now come to the end of your testimony. You may now leave the

8 courtroom and let me just wish you safe journey back to your place of

9 residence. Thank you very much for the information that you have provided

10 us for the purposes of this case.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, too. Goodbye.

12 [The witness withdrew]

13 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Mr. Prosecutor, we still have about

14 20 minutes left before the break. Is it possible for you to bring in the

15 next witness, and could you please specify the kind of protective

16 measures, if any, that you are seeking in respect of your next witness?

17 MR. SCOTT: Yes, sir. Mr. Fourmy, Mr. Bos will be handling the

18 next witness, and I'll let him address the Court, please. Thank you. We

19 are ready to proceed.

20 MR. BOS: Good afternoon, Mr. Fourmy. The next witness has

21 requested some protective measures, being facial distortion and a

22 pseudonym, so I request that he could be assigned a pseudonym.

23 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Madam Registrar, please, and

24 Mr. Usher, I think that we first have to lower the blinds before we can

25 bring in the witness. And I think that we have to let those blinds that

Page 1278

1 are behind the witness down. We have -- I don't know, we usually have a

2 screen in this courtroom when there is facial distortion, when this kind

3 of protective measure is applied.

4 THE REGISTRAR: This witness will be Witness H.

5 MR. BOS: Thank you.

6 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Mr. Prosecutor, I think that we have

7 about 15 minutes left before the break. I'm telling you this so that you

8 can organise the beginning of your examination-in-chief before we proceed

9 with our usual lunch break. Thank you.

10 MR. BOS: Yes, Mr. Fourmy. I would request that we would start in

11 private session when I ask background questions, so I don't know if you

12 want to go straight into private session or after you introduce the

13 witness.

14 [The witness entered court]

15 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Madam Registrar, I think we can move

16 into private session right away.

17 [Private session]

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 1279












12 page 1279 redacted, private session.














Page 1280












12 page 1280 redacted, private session.














Page 1281

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 [Open session]

17 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] We are in public session,

18 Mr. Prosecutor. Would you please continue.

19 MR. BOS: Thank you, Mr. Fourmy.

20 Q. (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted). Would you explain a little bit how the government of

23 Mostar was composed in 1989.

24 A. The local Mostar government was organised on the basis of election

25 results, the election which had taken place in the town of Mostar, and the

Page 1282












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

13 and the English transcripts.













Page 1283

1 appropriate number of seats were given to the representatives of various

2 parties. In the town of Mostar itself, it was the Croatian Democratic

3 Party that won the elections, and they had 33 deputies. The Party of

4 Democratic Action had 18 deputies, and the Serb Democratic Party had 13

5 members. The remainder was distributed amongst the representatives of the

6 SDP party, the Greens, and some other minor parties.

7 Q. Now, what happened with this coalition when the war broke out

8 against the Serbs? Did it remain in power, and for how long?

9 A. The coalition and that kind of situation lasted until the month of

10 April 1992, at which point in time the coalition broke apart, because the

11 Serb Democratic Party left the coalition. However, the SDA and HDZ were

12 still members of that coalition. They still formed a coalition at that

13 time.

14 Q. And was there a time in May, June, that the Croatian and the

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 Q. What ethnicity had Mr. Topic?

21 A. Jadran Topic was a Croat.

22 Q. And did you obtain any function within this crisis government,

23 this joint crisis government?

24 A. (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 1284

1 (redacted).

2 MR. BOS: Mr. Fourmy, maybe we can go again in private session for

3 a few minutes.

4 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Madam Registrar, private session,

5 please.

6 [Private session]

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 1285

1 [Open session]

2 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Witness H, we are now going to have

3 an hour-and-a-half break. We will come back and reconvene at 2.00. Let

4 me ask you not to move, not to stand up for a moment, because first of all

5 we have to lower down the blinds - Mr. Usher will do that - before you

6 leave the courtroom. And after that, you will be allowed to leave the

7 courtroom.

8 We will come back, we will reconvene, at 2.00 in the afternoon.

9 The Court is in recess.

10 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.29 p.m.
















Page 1286

1 --- On resuming at 2.05 p.m.

2 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Mr. Prosecutor, could you perhaps, in

3 the interest of better organisation, give us an approximation of the

4 amount of time you still need for the deposition of this witness, please?

5 MR. BOS: I think I will need at least another hour, maybe a bit

6 more, an hour and 15 minutes.

7 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Witness H, I hope you are feeling

8 well. Can you hear me?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you.

10 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] We are going to continue with the

11 examination by the Prosecutor. We are in public session, with the

12 protective measures as far as you are concerned, so, Witness H, if you

13 are -- have to touch upon a question that you feel might reveal your

14 identification, perhaps you could give the Prosecutor a sign and then we

15 will go into private session. The same applies to the Defence.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, indeed, fine.

17 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18 Mr. Prosecutor, your witness, please continue.

19 MR. BOS: Thank you, Mr. Fourmy.

20 Q. Witness H, when we left off before the break, we were discussing

21 the joint crisis government that was set up by the Muslims and the Croats

22 around May, June 1992. Do you remember?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And you testified that this joint crisis government was led by a

25 Croat named Jadranko Topic; is that correct?

Page 1287

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Could you tell us a little bit about the structure of this joint

3 crisis government?

4 A. The structure of the joint crisis authorities was such that in

5 view of the population census, the predominant group were the Croats, but

6 in the Crisis Staff, as far as my -- as far as I can remember, there were

7 four or five Muslims as well.

8 Q. Did you have a function in this crisis government staff as well,

9 this joint crisis government staff?

10 A. I did not have any particular position, but I had what is called a

11 honorary function.

12 Q. We discussed that before and we don't have to come back to that.

13 Now, about that same period, did a conflict break out within the

14 SDA?

15 A. Yes. A part of the membership, or rather of the leadership, of

16 the Party of Democratic Action joined and supported the intentions and

17 aspirations of the Croatian Democratic Union, so that certain individuals,

18 headed by Mr. Ismet Hadziosmanovic, wanted to totally hand over power to

19 the HDZ, that is the Crisis Staff.

20 Q. You've mentioned Mr. Ismet Hadziosmanovic. Who is he?

21 A. Dr. Ismet Hadziosmanovic was the founder of the Party of

22 Democratic Action in the area of Herzegovina. That is to say, he is a

23 person who had a leadership role in the region of Herzegovina, and he was

24 one of the founders, that is the President, of the Party of Democratic

25 Action for Herzegovina.

Page 1288

1 Q. So it was Mr. Hadziosmanovic who actually agreed with the Croatian

2 party that it in fact would take over control? He agreed with this?

3 A. That is correct. Your question or rather your statement is

4 correct.

5 Q. How did the rest of the SDA react to this position of

6 Mr. Hadziosmanovic?

7 A. The rest of the membership of the Party of Democratic Action did

8 not agree with the leadership and with the individuals who had rallied

9 round Dr. Hadziosmanovic.

10 Q. How many people within the SDA supported his position?

11 A. It was a relatively small number of people, ten or so, who were

12 with Dr. Hadziosmanovic in this.

13 Q. And would you explain that in a percentage? If you say ten

14 people, out of how many?

15 A. In the region of Herzegovina, there were about 2.000 members, so

16 that means it was a negligible percentage, a percentage which is far below

17 1 per cent.

18 Q. How did you take the position of Mr. Hadziosmanovic? Did you

19 agree with him?

20 A. I clashed with Mr. Ismet Hadziosmanovic because my opinion

21 differed from that of Dr. Hadziosmanovic.

22 Q. Now, after this clash, what happened to the relationship with the

23 Muslims and the Croats, within the local government?

24 A. The Croatian Democratic Union, or rather the Crisis Staff, they

25 wanted to set up, and indeed did set up, in the region of Herzegovina a

Page 1289

1 Croatian community, or rather the Croatian Republic of Herceg-Bosna. This

2 was a parastatal entity, the intention of which, and in which in fact the

3 Croats predominated, so that the Muslims were not equal in this parastatal

4 entity of Herceg-Bosna. So, gradually, virtually all representatives of

5 the Muslims withdrew from the Crisis Staff with the exception of

6 Dr. Hadziosmanovic, who remained a member of the Crisis Staff, or rather

7 who continued working together with the representatives of the Croatian

8 people.

9 Q. Very well. Thank you. I would now like to draw your attention to

10 the 9th of May 1993. Do you remember that day?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Where were you on that day?

13 A. (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 Q. And can you tell us a bit more about this Vranica building? Is

16 this a residential building?

17 A. It was a pre-war building, a combination of apartments and

18 offices. In the basement was a civil engineering company called Vranica,

19 which engaged in construction work, and the other floors consisted of

20 apartments. In the course of the war, in the basement of the Vranica

21 building, the headquarters of the 4th Corps of the army of Bosnia and

22 Herzegovina was stationed. The other floors of the building continued to

23 be used as apartments.

24 Q. And could you tell us what happened on the 9th of May?

25 A. On the 9th of May, 1993, the Vranica building was attacked by the

Page 1290

1 Croatian Defence Council and the Croatian army, using all available

2 weapons, so that the whole building in which I happened to be was exposed

3 to fire, the aim being primarily to attack the basement, the premises in

4 the basement, where the command of the army of the Republic of Bosnia and

5 Herzegovina was headquartered.

6 Q. At what time did the attack start?

7 A. The attack started at 5.00 a.m.

8 Q. How long did it last?

9 A. That attack lasted, as far as we know -- we were in the building

10 throughout the attack, and it went on through the 9th, 10th, and 11th of

11 May.

12 Q. What happened on the 11th of May?

13 A. On the 11th of May, that is, the night between the 10th and the

14 11th of May, the surviving members broke down a wall and from the basement

15 gradually pulled out of the command and joined the inhabitants of the

16 apartment building of Vranica, so that the house was on fire. And it was

17 not possible to remain in the building, so that a white sheet was hung out

18 as a sign of surrender on the part of the people who still remained in the

19 building.

20 Q. When you say, "The surviving members broke down a wall," whom are

21 you referring to?

22 A. I'm referring to members of the army of the 4th Corps, who were

23 located in the basement, because the attack mainly focused on the

24 basement, but there were random bullets that hit the building all over.

25 Q. You said a sign of surrender was hung out. Who did this? Do you

Page 1291

1 know?

2 A. Yes, I do. It was Mr. Zijad Demirovic, also a member of the Party

3 of Democratic Action.

4 Q. Witness, I would now like to show you a Prosecution Exhibit, which

5 is Prosecution Exhibit P16.4, with the assistance of the usher, or

6 otherwise, the Court deputy. Now, Witness H, can you see the photograph

7 in front of you on the screen?

8 A. No.

9 Q. But you can see it on the overhead projector, can you?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Do you recognise this building?

12 A. (redacted).

13 Q. And can you explain on which side of the building you lived, or

14 where you were at the time of the attack?

15 A. (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 Q. Very well. And at the time of surrender you were taken out. From

19 where were you taken out of the Vranica building, the east or the west

20 side?

21 A. We were taken out of the Vranica building, together with a flag.

22 We went out the eastern side of the building. And then we were taken some

23 30 metres to the north, along a narrow passageway, in front of the

24 building of the school of economics, which is situated about 50 metres

25 away from the Vranica building, in the westerly direction.

Page 1292

1 Q. So is it fair to say that this building of economics is opposite

2 the west side of the Vranica building?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Now, let me ask you some questions about what happened again,

5 about when you were taken out. What happened to the men and women? Was

6 everyone taken to the same place? Was everyone taken to the building of

7 economics?

8 A. The women and children were taken separately to the MUP building,

9 and the men were taken to the yard in front of the school of economics.

10 Q. And by whom were you taken to the yard of economics?

11 A. We were taken to the yard of the economics school by soldiers of

12 the Croatian Defence Council and soldiers of the Croatian army.

13 Q. And how do you know that these were soldiers from both the HVO and

14 the HV?

15 A. The soldiers of the HVO, on their olive-green/grey uniforms, wore

16 insignia with the letters HVO on them, whereas the soldiers of the

17 Croatian army wore insignia with the letters HV on them.

18 These emblems of the Croatian army and of the Croatian defence

19 council are very similar, so that an observer may find it difficult to

20 distinguish between the two. The Croatian army soldiers bear the state

21 flag as their emblem, whereas the soldiers of the HVO do not have on the

22 top of the patch the so-called crown which figures on the patches of the

23 HV soldiers. The central part of both emblems are checkerboards.

24 Q. Thank you, Witness H. Witness H, are you comfortable with your

25 earphone? Because you seem to hold it. Is it okay?

Page 1293












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13 and the English transcripts.













Page 1294

1 A. No, it's fine, it's fine.

2 MR. BOS: Yes. Mr. Fourmy, at this time I would like to go for a

3 few questions into private session.

4 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Mr. Prosecutor, I see no problem. I

5 think that the Defence has no objection either. We don't have an usher

6 here, so it may be a little difficult to go back and forth from public

7 into private session. So could you please group all your questions for

8 private session for a later period, or perhaps now, so as not to have to

9 come and go repeatedly. If possible, of course.

10 MR. BOS: This is the last time I hope to go into private session,

11 but I would prefer to do it now, though. But I don't think we need to

12 close down the blinds, do we? We can just go into private.

13 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] You're quite right, excuse me.

14 Private session, Madam Registrar, please.

15 [Private session]

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 1295












12 Page 1295 redacted, private session.














Page 1296












12 page 1296 redacted, private session.














Page 1297

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 [Open session]

22 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Mr. Prosecutor, please continue.

23 MR. BOS:

24 Q. Now, where were you taken from the school of economics after you

25 had all lined up at the school of economics? Where were you taken then?

Page 1298

1 A. I was taken to the Bijelo Brijeg stadium, which is some 600, 700

2 metres away from the building of the school of economics. We stayed

3 there, some of us, for about half an hour, and then after that, we were

4 transported to the Heliodrom. Once at Heliodrom, I was put up at the

5 gymnasium there, which was part of the Heliodrom.

6 Q. My next couple of questions will be dealing with your detention at

7 the Heliodrom. Can you tell the Court -- you just testified that you were

8 brought to a building called the gymnasium at the Heliodrom. Can you

9 explain how many people were taken in the gymnasium?

10 A. Together with me on the bus, which was fully packed, there were

11 about 100 other people. So I was taken in a bus together with another 100

12 men, but all around me, there was -- there were many buses, a large number

13 of buses, that were leaving the stadium and going towards the Heliodrom.

14 Q. Were these people who were all brought to the Heliodrom, or the

15 gymnasium in particular, were these all men?

16 A. They were all men, yes, aged from approximately 20 upwards, but

17 two days later, we were joined by women and children.

18 Q. And the women and children were also brought in the gymnasium?

19 A. Yes. They were, but two days later.

20 Q. At that time, did you in fact see your wife and children again?

21 A. Yes, I did, because two hours later, they were brought to the same

22 gymnasium where I was staying.

23 Q. Now, could you tell the Court -- describe the conditions in this

24 gymnasium? And let's first talk about the hygiene?

25 A. The conditions in the gymnasium were very poor. At the entrance

Page 1299

1 to the building, there were only two water taps, and toilets were

2 completely blocked, so when we needed to go to the toilet, we never

3 actually thought of using such toilets. The people who, because of their

4 needs, used those facilities spilled water all along the corridors so

5 hygienic conditions were very bad indeed.

6 Q. How was the temperature at this gymnasium?

7 A. The temperature was very high. There were some windows on the

8 gymnasium. They were situated very high, below the ceiling, and they had

9 bars on it. The glass was broken but there were approximately 700 of us

10 that were accommodated inside the gymnasium, and we all had to use those

11 two water taps.

12 Q. And how was the temperature at night?

13 A. At night, it was very cold. The climate, the local climate, is

14 such that it is very warm until early evening hours, but then, just before

15 dusk, it becomes rather cool.

16 THE INTERPRETER: Sorry, just before dawn, it becomes very cool;

17 Interpreter's correction.

18 MR. BOS:

19 Q. Will you tell us about the food? What kind of food were you

20 given, and how many times a day?

21 A. The kind of food we received was just a fifth part of a bread loaf

22 and some very hot soup that we had to eat or drink in one minute. We were

23 only given one minute to eat that soup. So at the beginning, of course,

24 we didn't even want to eat such food. We wanted to have something to eat,

25 of course, but it was not possible because the infamous soup was very hot

Page 1300

1 indeed, and you could end up with burns because we had very little time to

2 eat it, only one minute.

3 Q. And how many times a day would you be served with this soup?

4 A. At the beginning, while we were still at the gymnasium, we were

5 given that food twice a day.

6 Q. And how were the prisoners treated in the gymnasium by the guards?

7 A. In the evening, after the lights had been switched off, guards

8 would enter the gymnasium, beating and kicking people at random. They

9 also took out some individuals. Actually, they would drag them out,

10 pulling them by their hands and feet, as if they were sacks.

11 Q. And who were these soldiers? From which army were these soldiers?

12 A. It was rather difficult to recognise them, because during the day,

13 soldiers in HVO uniforms would come. Whether they took people out at

14 night, I'm not quite sure. It was very difficult to recognise them in the

15 dark, so we didn't know who they were.

16 Q. Were you ever taken out?

17 A. I was lucky. I was not mistreated and I did not experience such

18 difficult things as people who were sitting next to me.

19 Q. Now, in your detention at the gym, did you ever encounter a person

20 by the name of Nenad Harmandzic?

21 A. I'm sorry. I must have received erroneous interpretation. It's

22 not Nenad Hadzic, but Nenad Harmandzic. He was referred to as Neno.

23 Q. And how did you know this person?

24 A. I knew the man from before the war. He used to be a MUP employee;

25 that is, he was a member of the police force. I knew him, but I knew his

Page 1301

1 brother even better, whose name was Majo Harmandzic. So before the war I

2 knew Neno, but we were not really friends. But I can say that I knew him

3 very well.

4 Q. And was Mr. Neno Harmandzic, was he also situated in the gym?

5 A. We were in the gymnasium, and all of us who were detained there

6 sat with our backs against the wall, whereas the middle, the centre of the

7 gymnasium, was empty. I sat at the very entrance, near the door, that is,

8 on the left side of the door to the gymnasium, below the basket for

9 basketball, and Neno Harmandzic was right across me on the opposite side

10 of the gymnasium.

11 Q. What happened to Mr. Neno Harmandzic while you were detained?

12 A. Neno Harmandzic is the kind of person who before the war exerted

13 certain influence, because he used to be a MUP employee, and as such he

14 was frequently taken out. His name would be called out. But because he

15 knew what was in store for him, he resisted, so he often had to be dragged

16 out like a sack. They pulled him by his feet and hands and took him out

17 of the gymnasium, after which we would hear screams, cries for help. He

18 was calling for help, but none of us who were present there had enough

19 courage and audacity to resist those people, nor did anyone attempt to

20 help him. He was often mistreated. And I saw him only on the 12th, 13th,

21 and the 14th of May. After that he disappeared from the gymnasium.

22 Q. And did you see who actually took him out? Did you recognise the

23 persons who took him out?

24 A. No, I didn't recognise those people.

25 Q. Witness H, I'm now going to show you a photograph, which is

Page 1302

1 Prosecution Exhibit P48. Do you recognise this man, Witness H?

2 A. Yes, I do. This is Neno Harmandzic.

3 Q. Thank you. Now, Witness H, do you know who the commander of the

4 Heliodrom camp was?

5 A. Mr. Pusic would also come to the entrance to the gymnasium. I

6 used to go to school with him. And he was very surprised to see me

7 there. He said, "How come you ended up in a camp?"

8 Q. What is the first name of Mr. Pusic? Do you know?

9 A. Mile.

10 Q. And please continue. So you said you knew Mr. Pusic from your

11 student days; is that correct?

12 A. Yes. We were at the university together. I completed my studies

13 and he interrupted his. We used to know each other very well before the

14 war. We were together at the university. However, out of 23

15 students -- that is, there were only 23 students in our generation, so we

16 knew each other very well.

17 Q. When you met him at the camp, at the Heliodrom, did Mr. Pusic ask

18 you to do something?

19 A. In the meantime, representatives of the Red Cross arrived, and

20 they drew up some lists. Actually, they started identifying people,

21 providing them with some kind of assistance, and probably because of their

22 presence, that is, the presence of the Red Cross, he asked me to draft a

23 report on conditions, on the hygiene there, on the behaviour towards

24 people who were there at the Heliodrom, and also to draw up a list of

25 people - excuse me - only a list of women and children who wished to be

Page 1303

1 transferred from the Heliodrom to the eastern part of the town of Mostar.

2 Q. Did you actually prepare those two documents?

3 A. I did prepare those documents, yes.

4 Q. Let's first discuss this report which he asked you to draw up on

5 the conditions of the gymnasium. Before you testified and described the

6 conditions of the Heliodrom. Did you make a similar report -- how did you

7 report the conditions in this particular report?

8 A. Since I didn't come to the Heliodrom on my own free will, since I

9 had been forced to board the bus and come to the Heliodrom, I was

10 perfectly aware of my status as a prisoner there and that I had to write

11 the report which would be more favourable for the people who ordered me to

12 draw such a report. So I wrote that the conditions were very good, that

13 the food was okay, that the hygiene was satisfactory. So what I wrote

14 down was not true, and it was not the true reflection of the situation we

15 were in.

16 Q. Now, let's talk about this second document, this list. Can you

17 explain a bit more in detail what you needed to do and what you actually

18 did?

19 A. As regards the second document, that is, the list of women and

20 children, I did make such a list, a list of women and children who wanted

21 to leave the Heliodrom and to be transferred to the eastern part of

22 Mostar. I also put the name of my wife on that list, together with my

23 children, and at that time my children were only two years old.

24 Q. Just to be absolutely sure: So the list which you drew up was

25 only women and children, and it was only women and children who could be

Page 1304












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13 and the English transcripts.













Page 1305

1 released if they were actually going to east Mostar; if they wanted to go

2 to west Mostar, they would not be on the list. Is that correct?

3 A. Yes, that is correct.

4 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Mr. Krsnik.

5 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] My apologies to my learned friend

6 Mr. Bos. Thank you for giving me the floor, Mr. Fourmy. As you have

7 probably noticed, we have been quite patient and avoided any

8 intervention. However, I believe that this has been a very leading

9 question, which is out of the scope of the examination of the witness. I

10 don't think that so much information can be supplied to the witness before

11 actually asking the specific question. That is the kind of objection that

12 I wanted to make for the record.

13 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. Krsnik.

14 Mr. Bos, would you please be mindful at the way you are phrasing

15 your questions, and I know that the Defence will be thankful for that

16 effort. Will you please continue.

17 MR. BOS: I was just trying to confirm something, but yes, I will

18 be mindful.

19 Q. Now, Witness H, you've spoken about this person named Juka,

20 General Prazina, earlier in your testimony. Did you ever see him at the

21 Heliodrom?

22 A. He frequently visited the Heliodrom, and he would also come to the

23 gymnasium, usually in the evening but sometimes also at night. He

24 distributed food to the prisoners, milk, cigarettes, because he knew that

25 we were probably very hungry.

Page 1306

1 Q. Do you have any idea what his function was at the Heliodrom?

2 A. He had his headquarters at the Heliodrom. It was close to the

3 school building, across the street from the school, and I happened to go

4 there on one occasion.

5 Q. When you went there, was this the first time you were detained in

6 the Heliodrom that you actually went to that building?

7 A. No. I was detained on several occasions. Among other locations,

8 I was detained at the gymnasium, but I was also detained at the faculty

9 for engineering, which was not located on the premises of the Heliodrom

10 but in the town of Mostar. I was also detained in the school, and after

11 I -- as I was -- at the time I left Heliodrom, I had an opportunity to

12 visit the headquarters of General Prazina.

13 Q. We will come back to that later. Could you just tell us when you

14 were actually released this first time you were detained at the

15 Heliodrom?

16 A. On the 19th of May, by General Prazina and General Sain, I was

17 released on the 19th of May, and taken back to the west part of Mostar,

18 where I went to my sister's apartment and stayed there until the 12th of

19 June, when they again came to fetch me and my brother-in-law, that is

20 members of the HVO, who arrived in the afternoon and took us --

21 Q. Witness H, sorry to interrupt you. Maybe if I can just go back a

22 little. So you said when you were released, you went back to West

23 Mostar. Why didn't you go to East Mostar where your wife and children

24 were taken to?

25 A. I didn't have the opportunity to go to East Mostar because, from

Page 1307

1 the Heliodrom, it was not possible for men to cross over into the eastern

2 part of the city because, for the Croat side, these would be potential

3 enemies who might join the ranks of the army and who might oppose the

4 Croatian side. In this way, the number of able-bodied men would have

5 increased on the east part where the Muslims were, and this did not suit

6 the Croatian forces, because that would mean a rapid increase in the

7 number of potential enemies.

8 Q. So you were taken back to West Mostar, and did you pick up your

9 work again?

10 A. I did continue doing my job, when a colleague of mine met me and,

11 again, assigned me to my regular job. He even gave me certain documents

12 issued by the HVO, the purpose being to protect me as an individual so

13 that I wouldn't again have to go through the same experience I had the

14 first time at the Heliodrom. So I was given this written document, which

15 should have been a guarantee of my safety -- should have guaranteed my

16 safety.

17 Q. And who gave you this document?

18 A. The document was given to me by a man who became a minister in the

19 government of the Croatian republic of Herceg-Bosna. His name was Marijo

20 Salavarda, and he replaced Mr. Hamdija Jahic, and he held the position of

21 Minister for Reconstruction, Development and Construction. That's how the

22 position was called.

23 Q. And what is the ethnicity of Mr. Salavarda?

24 A. He was a Croat.

25 Q. You said that he replaced Mr. Hamdija Jahic, and what is his

Page 1308

1 ethnicity?

2 A. A Muslim.

3 Q. A little bit earlier, you said that on the 10th of June, you were

4 again detained. Can you tell us what happened on that day?

5 A. On the 10th of June, I was in the apartment with my

6 brother-in-law, who was doing some work for the Croats, and he had a

7 computer in his apartment, a word processor, a monitor, a keyboard, so

8 that the members of the HVO took him, me and all this equipment and placed

9 us in a vehicle and drove us to the faculty of mechanical engineering,

10 which was one of several university departments of the former university

11 that was called the Dzemal Bijelic University. When we had unloaded the

12 computer and the attachments, we were put up in the basement of this

13 mechanical engineering faculty building, and the basement of that building

14 exists only below a part of the building, and they have a very steep

15 staircase leading to this basement.

16 Q. Can I just interrupt you? Do you know why you were arrested?

17 A. Don't know. Probably for them to be able to check something in

18 the computer, but I really don't know, nor did they tell me.

19 Q. Okay, please continue. You were describing the basement. Please

20 continue.

21 A. The basement had a metal door and very steep staircase, as I

22 said. The entrance to the basement itself was very dark so that as you

23 went down the steps, you had to lean on the walls, and to find your way in

24 the darkness, going down step by step to get to the bottom. In the

25 basement itself, there were four rooms, all something one could call

Page 1309

1 boxes, at the end of which were small windows high up the wall, and which

2 in the pre-war period were used to store coal and timber.

3 When we entered the first of these rooms, we saw a bit of light

4 for the first time. The rest of the area was in total darkness. The

5 walls were very damp and, in the fourth room, there was blood two metres

6 up the wall. The whole wall was covered in blood.

7 The two of us were alone. No one else was in these rooms. That

8 night, the door was open -- opened several times and the guard standing in

9 front of that door -- the question put to that guard was, "Are they

10 ours?" And the guard said, "Yes." And from this I gathered that they

11 wouldn't kill us there.

12 In the morning, I was released and my brother-in-law was still

13 detained.

14 Q. Thank you, Witness H. So this all happened on the 10th of June.

15 Could you tell us now what happened on the 30th of June?

16 A. On the 30th of June, I was in the apartment. It was afternoon.

17 And again there was a raid. (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted).

20 About 15 of us from the neighbourhood were boarded on to a minibus

21 and escorted by a Golf vehicle. We were brought to a high area above the

22 Heliodrom and --

23 Q. Witness H, I'm sorry, could I just interrupt for a second? Do you

24 know why you were arrested this time?

25 A. Again, I don't know why. I was in the apartment, it was 5.00 in

Page 1310

1 the afternoon.

2 Q. Do you know what else happened on the 30th of June besides your

3 arrest?

4 A. Apart from my arrest, on the 30th of June, the northern barracks

5 were liberated by the army of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, so I

6 believe that may have been the reason for my deportation, repeated

7 deportation as a Muslim to the Heliodrom. I believe that my first and

8 last names were decisive, and this applies to the rest of the group of men

9 who were with me.

10 Q. As far as you could see, were other people arrested as well on

11 that day?

12 A. There were, and all of us were again taken to this high ground.

13 There were buses moving around again containing probably the people who

14 had been released, and then they would again come back to the Heliodrom.

15 Q. So now again for a second time you were taken again to the

16 Heliodrom.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And which building were you taken to this time?

19 A. This time I was taken to the building of the school, to office

20 number 12, on the door of which there was an inscription, "physics," the

21 physics laboratory, and I was there together with 28 others in that room.

22 Q. Now, Witness H, I'm going to show you another exhibit, which is

23 Prosecution Exhibit 20.8, and I would like to ask you, when you are shown

24 that exhibit, whether you recognise any of the buildings on that

25 photograph.

Page 1311

1 A. On the right-hand side of this photograph is the school building,

2 and we see the western side of it. The photograph shows the western side

3 of the school building.

4 Q. With the assistance of the usher, maybe you can point with the

5 pointer you are being given now which building is the school building.

6 A. This is the school building.

7 Q. Where was the Room 12, where you were actually kept?

8 A. At the very end. I was here, where I'm pointing to. So it is the

9 southern end of the building and it is the last room along that floor.

10 The windows were facing to the west, and that is the side we actually see

11 on this photograph.

12 Q. Do you recognise any other buildings on this photograph?

13 A. Opposite this building, though we didn't have the chance of going

14 out much -- I'm not quite certain about this building that I'm pointing

15 to. I think it was the gymnasium, but I'm not sure. And the room where

16 the headquarters were, this is the building I went to after my release to

17 see General Prazina.

18 Q. That building is the headquarters of General Prazina; is that what

19 you're saying?

20 A. Yes. On the ground floor, on the ground floor of this building.

21 I didn't climb to the other floors. I only went to the ground floor of

22 this building.

23 Q. Thank you. Now, Witness, can you describe what the conditions of

24 detention were in the school compared to the conditions of your first

25 detention?

Page 1312

1 A. When we arrived at the school itself, we had no food for four

2 days. They didn't give us anything to eat, so that we were all exhausted

3 and hungry. True enough, in terms of hygiene, the conditions were an

4 improvement in relation to the hygienic conditions in the gymnasium, but

5 the way we were treated, the food, these things were much worse than they

6 were in the gymnasium. People were mistreated. Every night soldiers we

7 didn't know came in and beat the prisoners. I must admit that I

8 personally did not have any problems at all. I must underline that.

9 Nobody beat me. But every night I had to sing songs, "Eto Jure & Boban."

10 That's the name of a song: "Here Comes Jure and Boban." We were forced

11 to pack together, and I think there were about 700 of us in the building,

12 every night to sing songs. The conditions were terrible, especially

13 during the night. During the day, we could walk around along the

14 corridors of this building, but at night we were housed and treated like

15 cattle, and at the sound of an approaching car, we feared the approach of

16 unknown soldiers who used every possible means to mistreat the detainees

17 and beat them at their will.

18 Q. You said that there were about 700 prisoners in the school. Were

19 they all men?

20 A. They were all men. Some of them were young, some were elderly,

21 but there were no women and children there.

22 Q. Now, during this second detention at the Heliodrom, were you on

23 one occasion taken out for forced labour?

24 A. Yes, to the location called the Bulevar.

25 Q. Do you remember the date, approximately?

Page 1313

1 A. The date was roughly the 12th or the 13th.

2 Q. And what did you do at the Bulevar? What did they ask you to do?

3 Let me first ask: Who took you to the Bulevar?

4 A. Members of the HVO took us to the Bulevar, in trucks, to the

5 separation line between the HVO and the army of the Republic of Bosnia and

6 Herzegovina. My task was to dig trenches and to fill bags with sand, to

7 serve as a shield between the two warring parties. I was next to a house

8 I knew well. It was in ruins and it was the house owned by Mr. Ico

9 Voljevica. It was in the immediate vicinity of the former health centre.

10 It was totally destroyed, and I had to take a cramp and a spade and dig

11 trenches to carry sandbags and to pile them up as a shelter.

12 Q. Were you exposed to fire while you were digging trenches and

13 carrying sandbags?

14 A. There was fire non-stop, and sniper fire. There was an exchange

15 of fire between the two sides all the time. True, I was not hit, but

16 bullets whizzed by, and you were right there along the separation line,

17 across which fire was exchanged constantly.

18 Q. Were any of the detainees you were working with hit on that day?

19 A. On that day, no one was hit, but when I returned, together with 12

20 other men who were there when the digging and carrying of sandbags took

21 place, I heard in the room that on that day, in the immediate vicinity of

22 the garage, which was about 10 metres away, a man had been killed, whom I

23 saw for the last time on the 14th of May.

24 His name was Neno Harmandzic. I heard then that there was another

25 detainee by the name of Lopata who had been forced to hit Mr. Neno

Page 1314

1 Harmandzic, and that from the blows and trampling, the man actually died.

2 I did not witness this. This is what I heard. In the room we returned to

3 at the Heliodrom.

4 Q. That's what I wanted to make it -- that's what I wanted to make

5 clear. You just heard this from other detainees. You didn't see anything

6 of this yourself?

7 A. No. I didn't see it.

8 Q. Now, earlier in your testimony, you referred to the man Mladen

9 Naletilic. Did you ever see him at the Heliodrom on that second time you

10 were detained?

11 A. The second time I saw Mr. Mladen Naletilic was at the Heliodrom,

12 together with Mr. Slobodan Lang.

13 Q. Who is Mr. Slobodan Lang?

14 A. Mr. Slobodan Lang is a national of the Republic of Croatia who

15 would visit us at the Heliodrom and who was probably designated as the

16 person in charge of respect of human rights, who simply questioned us as

17 to the way we prisoners were being treated, whether this was in accordance

18 with international law, and whether they were treating us humanely, and

19 whether our needs were being met.

20 Q. How often did you see this Mr. Lang at the Heliodrom?

21 A. I saw Mr. Lang three or four times at the Heliodrom during my stay

22 there, counting the time in the gymnasium and in the school.

23 Q. Now, you said that on one occasion, you saw Mr. Lang together with

24 Mladen Naletilic. Do you remember when that was?

25 A. That was during my stay at the school, because during the daytime,

Page 1315












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13 and the English transcripts.













Page 1316

1 we were allowed to move around along the school's corridors. And in the

2 ground floor where there is a water -- a fountain, we were able to have a

3 cigarette, have a smoke, so that I was in the ground floor of the school,

4 the entrance of which was in glass panes, so that from a distance of seven

5 to ten metres, I was able to recognise Mr. Lang and Mr. Naletilic. The

6 two of them had a rather short conversation of about five minutes. They

7 did not enter the premises themselves and then they left the area in front

8 of the school.

9 Q. Could you overhear the conversation?

10 A. No, I couldn't overhear the conversation. The door was closed,

11 but one could see through so that I'm quite sure that I did see them at a

12 distance of some ten metres but I couldn't hear them.

13 Q. And are you sure it was Mr. Mladen Naletilic that you

14 recognised -- whom you recognised?

15 A. I'm sure, because, as I have told you, I met Mr. Naletilic and I

16 saw him close up at an event that we have already mentioned.

17 Q. We don't have to go into that.

18 MR. BOS: I think I will take another five to ten minutes. Do you

19 want me to finish or would you like to have a break, Mr. Fourmy?

20 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Mr. Prosecutor, it's almost 15

21 minutes that I was hoping you only had another minute left, but my hopes

22 were in vain. So I think we will now have a break and we will resume at

23 five to 4.00. Please don't move, sir, for the time being. Thank you.

24 --- Recess taken at 3.32 p.m.

25 --- On resuming at 3.56 p.m.

Page 1317

1 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Very well. I think that we are all a

2 little bit tired, but I think we can continue with the hearing. Mr. Usher

3 has gone out to fetch the witness.

4 Mr. Prosecutor, I don't think that, try as we might, we'll be able

5 to finish the witness for today. You have another ten minutes to go, and

6 in view of the cross-examination, I know that Mr. Krsnik will do his

7 utmost in order to speed the matter up, but I don't think that we can

8 reasonably expect to finish with this witness today. So once again, I

9 should like to appeal to both of the parties to try and go as fast as it

10 is reasonably possible so that we can finish this procedure of deposition

11 taking which you, Mr. Prosecutor, had fixed for the end of this week, and

12 also we have to bear in mind that we will not work half a day, half of one

13 working day.

14 Witness H, thank you for coming back. We are now going to

15 continue with the examination-in-chief of the Prosecutor, and after that

16 you will be asked a few questions by the Defence counsel.

17 Mr. Usher, I don't know -- I don't think that the microphones are

18 switched on.

19 Mr. Prosecutor, you have the floor.

20 MR. BOS: Thank you, Mr. Fourmy.

21 Q. Witness H, I'd like to discuss your release from the Heliodrom and

22 the second time you were detained at the Heliodrom. Do you remember on

23 what day that was?

24 A. I arrived on the 30th of June, and I was released on the 20th of

25 July or thereabouts.

Page 1318

1 Q. Now, can you explain to the Court what happened on the day that

2 you were released?

3 A. Several days prior to my release, together with several other

4 individuals, I was assigned to collect signatures on behalf of the Muslim

5 party, the Party for Democratic Action, and to try and convince people to

6 join the Muslim Party for Democratic Action which continued on working

7 together with the representatives of the Croatian people. And the --

8 Q. Can I stop you there, I'm sorry. I'd like to go back a little so

9 that everything is clear for the Court. So you said that you were -- that

10 some people came and asked you to collect signatures. Who were these

11 people?

12 A. General Prazina was one of them, and then there was Mr. Alic and

13 Mr. Pasic.

14 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, the witness said

15 Muslim Democratic Party.

16 MR. BOS:

17 Q. And who was Mr. Alic?

18 A. Mr. Alic was the president of the Muslim Democratic Party, and he

19 was a dentist by occupation.

20 Q. So these men were asking you and any other detainees as well with

21 how many -- sorry, strike that.

22 This man, this Mr. Alic, together with Juka as you said and

23 another person -- what was the name of the third person?

24 A. Pasic, Mr. Pasic.

25 Q. What did they ask you to do?

Page 1319

1 A. They wanted us, people from my building, to sign the kind of

2 declaration, a forced declaration, that we would cooperate with the

3 representatives of the Croatian people and that we will -- we would join

4 the Croatian people in their fight against the army of the republic of

5 Bosnia and Herzegovina, that we would side with them.

6 Q. And so they drew up a petition, is that what you testify?

7 A. Yes. It was a kind of petition which we had to make official with

8 our signatures. That is to say that -- to declare that we were also in

9 favour of such petition, and that it was our opinion, or rather our will,

10 to act against the army of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

11 Q. And you were put in charge of collecting signatures for this

12 petition; is that correct?

13 A. Me and two or three other people who were with me. We were

14 entrusted with trying to convince the people to put their signatures on

15 that petition and to agree with its contents.

16 Q. And all the prisoners, all 700 prisoners, did they all sign this

17 petition?

18 A. Against their will, yes. They did sign this petition, except for

19 an elderly man whose name I cannot remember. He started to cry and he

20 said that we were all traitors, that we were engaged in something that was

21 unacceptable, something that we should not be doing, but finally when we

22 told him that we had to sign it, at the end, although reluctantly, he too

23 signed the petition.

24 Q. Did you sign the petition as well?

25 A. Yes. I signed that petition.

Page 1320

1 Q. And did you support what was in this petition?

2 A. No, I didn't support the petition, for one reason, namely I was

3 aware of the fact that I was in the hands of the Croatian Defence Council

4 and that I simply had to obey orders of the people, other people, who

5 issued me such orders, because I was a prisoner. And I was also perfectly

6 aware of the fact that by telling the people to sign some kind of petition

7 which was made under duress, that that kind of -- that that kind of

8 petition could never be -- could never constitute a valid document. We

9 all knew that it was not okay to sign such a petition, but at the same

10 time we were aware that we simply had to sign it.

11 Q. And what happened when all the prisoners had signed the petition?

12 What happened to you?

13 A. At that time, a group of people, including people who used to work

14 with me, was -- the group of people that was selected to collect

15 signatures for that petition was released and sent to the eastern part of

16 Mostar, and that is how we actually left the Heliodrom and returned to the

17 eastern part of Mostar. Not everybody who signed the petition was

18 released, only a limited number of people. I believe 15 to 20 people only

19 were returned to Mostar.

20 Q. And who took you to Mostar when you were released from the

21 Heliodrom?

22 A. We were taken in a small bus which was driven by General Prazina.

23 He was the driver on the occasion, and he himself took us back to Mostar.

24 Q. Thank you, Witness H. That almost concludes your testimony. I

25 just have one additional question. You've been referring to a person

Page 1321

1 called Mladen Naletilic. Do you actually see that person today here in

2 the courtroom?

3 A. Yes, I do.

4 Q. Can you describe him for us?

5 A. Yes, I can. It's a very elegant gentleman. He's wearing a suit

6 and a tie. He has glasses on. His beard is white and his hair is

7 longish.

8 MR. BOS: May the record reflect that the witness has identified

9 the accused Mladen Naletilic.

10 That ends my examination-in-chief.

11 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Prosecutor.

12 Witness H, you will now be answering questions by Mr. Krsnik, who

13 is Defence counsel in this case.

14 Mr. Krsnik, your witness.

15 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Fourmy.

16 If you would please give me a moment, I don't wish to be rude to

17 the witness and turn my back on him. Let me just organise myself a

18 little.

19 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Mr. Krsnik, do you need a brief

20 private session to begin your cross-examination, or you don't think it

21 will be necessary?

22 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] For the time being, I don't think it

23 is necessary. I will start with some general issues and I bear -- I'm

24 mindful of that, and we will request private session on time when

25 necessary.

Page 1322

1 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. Please proceed.

2 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. Fourmy.

3 Cross-examined by Mr. Krsnik:

4 Q. (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 Q. You gave only one statement to the OTP of this Tribunal?

10 A. Could you please clarify your question for me?

11 Q. I believe it is very clear. Did you give to the gentlemen of the

12 Prosecution from this Tribunal only one statement?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Did you give any other statement to anyone else except for the

15 gentlemen from the Prosecution?

16 A. No.

17 Q. You made that statement in 1999.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. That is six years after the events?

20 A. Excuse me, what exactly do you have in mind when you say six years

21 after the events? What are you alluding to?

22 Q. As to what I am alluding to, it is something that you cannot

23 comment upon. Let me ask you to concentrate and try to be as brief as

24 possible in answering my questions. I believe my question was clear

25 enough, but perhaps that is not important. I'll give up my question.

Page 1323

1 Rather, could you tell me how it was that the gentlemen from the

2 Prosecution reached you? How did they find you?

3 A. I was in the records of the Red Cross. I was recorded by the

4 representatives of the Red Cross as a civilian who was in a camp against

5 his will, who did not wish to experience this terrible plight that I was

6 able to see.

7 Q. My apologies to you, Witness H, but I have to ask you to

8 concentrate on my questions once again. We do not need very broad

9 comments. I'm trying to phrase my questions so as to give you an

10 opportunity to be very brief in your answers.

11 A. I apologise, but you don't seem to finish your sentences. I

12 should like to ask you to use very short sentences, and maybe I don't have

13 the right to do that, but it is -- but I don't think that such brief

14 sentences without proper endings are actually questions that I'm able to

15 answer. So I would like to ask you to finish your thoughts so that I am

16 not forced to tell you over and over again that I don't quite understand

17 your question. And I really apologise for saying this, but I should

18 kindly ask you to do that, please.

19 Q. Witness H, I am phrasing my questions the way I see fit. I should

20 like you -- I should like to ask you to refrain from any such comments,

21 and I'm trying to phrase my questions so as to enable you to answer them

22 very briefly so that we can move as fast as possible.

23 You currently reside on the left bank?

24 A. Correct.

25 Q. Is that where they found you, the gentlemen from the Prosecution,

Page 1324

1 that is, the investigators of this Tribunal?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Did anyone accompany them?

4 A. No.

5 Q. How long did the interview last, one day, two days, three days,

6 just one hour perhaps?

7 A. It was very brief, one hour, an hour and a half.

8 Q. They asked questions of you?

9 A. Yes, they did.

10 Q. Did you relate the events spontaneously, without any specific

11 questions asked by them?

12 A. I had first been cautioned that I was to tell the truth.

13 Q. I'm not asking you that. That is quite clear.

14 A. It was of my own free will.

15 Q. I don't think you have understood my question. Let me rephrase

16 it. Except for their questions, did you provide a spontaneous explanation

17 of the events?

18 A. They did not ask any specific questions. They only asked me to

19 tell the story, to tell about the events, and how I experienced my stay in

20 various prisons.

21 Q. You told them everything you knew?

22 A. Yes, yes. I told them everything I knew.

23 Q. We will go back to this issue when we come to the relevant facts.

24 Dr. Hadziosmanovic is a very close friend of Alija Izetbegovic, is he not?

25 A. I feel you should ask him. I know who he is, I know him, as to

Page 1325

1 whether the two of them are very good friends, I don't know.

2 Q. Safet Orucevic was his driver, was he not?

3 A. I know Safet Orucevic. Whether he was a driver, I don't think

4 that he ever worked as a driver, but I'm not sure. He may have done that

5 as well, but I don't know.

6 Q. Mr. Safet Orucevic is also one of the founding members of the SDA?

7 A. Mr. Safet Orucevic was not a founder of the SDA, initially, at the

8 beginning. Later, I don't know.

9 Q. Mr. Demirovic is the founder of the SDA -- a founder of the SDA?

10 A. Yes. Mr. Demirovic is.

11 Q. What about his brother?

12 A. His brother? As far as I know, he doesn't have a brother. At

13 least I don't know him.

14 Q. In 1992, there was a rift between the Muslim and Croatian

15 community and Croats started moving from the eastern part of the town to

16 the western part of the town?

17 A. That is correct.

18 Q. Bosniaks, or Muslims -- you understand me when I say that?

19 A. Yes, yes, I do. Whether you say Bosniaks or Muslims, I know who

20 you have in mind.

21 Q. So the Muslims who remained on the eastern part of -- on the

22 eastern bank of the river in 1992 did not wish, were not willing, to

23 oppose the Serbs?

24 A. I don't think you're right.

25 Q. I'm sorry, but could you say yes or no?

Page 1326












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13 and the English transcripts.













Page 1327

1 A. Would you please repeat your question?

2 Q. Yes. I will do that.

3 A. If I may interrupt you with a very brief question?

4 Q. Witness H, I am the one asking questions here and I will try to do

5 that in a manner so that you are fully clear as to what I mean. You

6 stated in your statement that after the rift which occurred at that time,

7 the Muslims who moved from the eastern part of the town to the western

8 part of the town thought that they would join the Croats in their

9 resistance against Serbs?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Let me follow up with a logical question. You're an educated,

12 man. I shall say no more so as not to compromise your identity. The

13 Muslims who remained on the eastern bank of the river were not willing to

14 resist the Serbs? They considered the JNA as their own army at that

15 period of time?

16 A. I'm sorry, but I don't think you're right, because many Muslims

17 opposed the Serbs. They were resisting Serbs in large numbers. However,

18 I cannot comment on that because I myself was on the right bank of the

19 river.

20 Q. Have you read the Islamic Declaration by Alija Izetbegovic?

21 A. No, I haven't.

22 Q. What was the programme of the SDA in 1992, just briefly, if you

23 can briefly outline the policy?

24 A. It was a national party, whose objective was for the Muslims to

25 have their own identity in the area of Herzegovina, that is in the region

Page 1328

1 where I lived.

2 Q. So, it was a national party with a national programme?

3 A. Just as the HDZ had and other such parties.

4 Q. Would you please focus on my question. I believe it was a very

5 clear, streamlined question.

6 A. I will do that.

7 Q. When I say national programme, I actually have a nationalist

8 programme in mind.

9 A. With all due respect, I think that's something different.

10 Q. I don't think we should discuss the matter any further. Your

11 answer is quite satisfactory. You have answered my question.

12 Those differences and the rift that occurred, were they present at

13 the time when the Croatian village of Ravno came under attack?

14 A. At that time Croats and Muslims were still together. They had

15 certain common objectives. They were together in their opposition and

16 their resistance against the Chetnik aggression.

17 Q. At the time Ravno was attacked, at the time of that tragedy, your

18 president, Mr. Alija Izetbegovic, declared that that was not your war?

19 A. Please, as I should like you -- I don't wish to comment on the

20 statements made by Mr. Izetbegovic. I made my statement.

21 Q. Did he give such a statement or not? Did he say that or not?

22 A. Yes, he did.

23 Q. On the 11th of June, 1992, you moved to the western part of

24 Mostar?

25 A. Correct.

Page 1329

1 Q. Does that mean that you joined the Muslims who lived in the

2 western part of Mostar in their opinions?

3 A. No. I was fleeing the Chetnik aggression because the left bank

4 was on fire.

5 Q. All of you who had come from the left bank shared the same

6 opinion?

7 A. It's not that we came to your home, it is a common town of both

8 Muslims and Croats.

9 Q. That is not what I asked you.

10 A. That is how I understood your question.

11 Q. I believe my question was very clear and that it was a logical

12 follow-up to what you stated.

13 A. When I moved from the eastern part of the town to the western part

14 of the town was actually to go and stay with my sister.

15 Q. But you still continued to think that it is better not to have

16 anything to do with Croats, not to work together with them?

17 A. I never said that we should not be working together with honest

18 Croats.

19 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] For the record and for your benefit,

20 Mr. Fourmy, and perhaps also for the benefit of my learned friends from

21 the Prosecution, I should like to say that the witness is misquoting on

22 purpose my questions for the fifth or the sixth time. His answers are

23 actually counter-questions. I don't know exactly what happened with the

24 interpretation. My colleague is following the transcript. But it will be

25 very difficult for me to establish appropriate communication with this

Page 1330

1 witness. And after all, we are dealing with an educated person here who

2 is familiar with ways of avoiding questions -- of avoiding answers, I'm

3 sorry.

4 So I should kindly ask you to explain to this witness what the

5 purpose of the cross-examination is and how it should be viewed in the

6 light of the solemn declaration that he made, to focus and concentrate on

7 my questions so we should not be wasting any time.

8 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Mr. Krsnik, allow me to make some

9 very modest remarks. The first thing is that the record speaks for

10 itself. That is the first point I wish to say.

11 The second is that each witness, as you know, has his own

12 personality and therefore a tendency to answer questions depending on that

13 personality, and this is something that we all have to respect.

14 The third point is you clearly have too much experience not to be

15 able to establish a channel of communication with the witness which will

16 allow you to obtain answers to the questions you are putting to him. So

17 please proceed.

18 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Fourmy. I just wanted

19 to apologise, if need be, in advance because, of course, thanks to my

20 experience, I do hope that I will manage to get answers to the questions

21 that I have in mind, but it will take a little longer.

22 Q. You were in favour of a joint command of the Croats and Muslims in

23 the defence against the Serbs?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Were you in favour of a political agreement with representatives

Page 1331

1 of the Croatian people?

2 A. No.

3 Q. In those days, that is, in 1992, we had a joint army or a joint

4 command but without any political agreement.

5 A. The decisive moment was the formation of the Croatian Republic of

6 Herceg-Bosna or the Community of Herceg-Bosna, so could you please ask

7 your questions related to the period prior to the formation of that

8 republic and after the formation of that republic?

9 Q. The Croatian Republic of Herceg-Bosna was not even in embryo form

10 then.

11 A. I'm sorry, but there was the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna.

12 Q. And to you, those are one and the same things?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Within the framework of the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna, it

15 was not possible to come to an agreement with representatives of the

16 Muslim people and to co-exist with them?

17 A. There was -- obviously, it was not possible, as the conflict broke

18 out and there was a misunderstanding between the two.

19 Q. This breakdown occurred a year later. You're very well aware of

20 that. You know what I am talking about.

21 A. As far as I know, the conflict occurred on the 9th of May in the

22 territory of the city of Mostar.

23 Q. But my question refers to the summer of 1992. Did you have an

24 assembly at which representatives of all parties met in 1992?

25 A. We did not have an assembly, but power was handed over to the

Page 1332

1 Croatian community in the cellar, in the basement, at the end of the

2 avenue.

3 Q. Where it was physically handed over is not important, so I don't

4 know why you told me that, but for the Defence, what is important is

5 whether this was an agreement or simply a handover without any

6 agreements. Somebody simply decided to hand over all power to the Croats?

7 A. Dr. Hadziosmanovic, who did not have the authority to do that, he

8 signed the document placing all forces under a joint command.

9 Q. The Serb aggression was imminent. Who was going to defend you

10 from that? How would you defend yourself? And you were against that

11 agreement.

12 A. We Muslims intended to resist the aggression together with the

13 Croats, jointly.

14 Q. You had a joint command?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And you were not opposed to that?

17 A. At first, no.

18 Q. Do you know who was the commander of that command?

19 A. You mean who headed the Crisis Staff?

20 Q. No. I'm asking you of the military command.

21 A. No.

22 Q. Within the framework of the agreement regarding the command or

23 headquarters, the principle of parity had been agreed upon?

24 A. I agree, and that is what I said in my statement, that in the

25 civilian authorities, there were both Muslims and Croats.

Page 1333

1 Q. I'm not asking you about the civilian authorities. I'm asking you

2 about the joint command for the defence.

3 A. I'm sorry, I was not a military man. (redacted)

4 (redacted).So we are talking about the civilian and political institutions.

5 Q. The SDA knew nothing, nor did it interfere, regarding the

6 establishment of the military command?

7 A. After the rift with Mr. Hadziosmanovic, as I wrote down in my

8 statement, Mr. Hadziosmanovic pursued his own policies, together with a

9 small number of people around him accounting for 1 per cent.

10 Q. When did that rift occur, do you remember, in 1992?

11 A. The document forming the Croatian republic as a parastatal entity

12 constituted that rift.

13 Q. Do you know when the Croatian Republic of Herceg-Bosna was formed?

14 A. I don't know the exact date.

15 Q. Do you know the year?

16 A. 1992.

17 Q. Was this before or after the 29th of April 1992?

18 A. I don't know the exact date so I'm afraid I can't answer that

19 question.

20 Q. Was Mr. Zijad Demirovic in favour of that agreement?

21 A. I don't know.

22 Q. And what about Fikret Bajric?

23 A. I don't know.

24 Q. When this rift occurred, these two mentioned persons, were they

25 for or against Mr. Hadziosmanovic?

Page 1334

1 A. They were for him.

2 Q. In which area?

3 A. They were among the supporters of Dr. Hadziosmanovic. They were

4 his associates.

5 Q. And they remained his associates, Zijad Demirovic and Fikret

6 Bajric?

7 A. I don't know whether they did all the time. I can't say because

8 I'm not sure. Dr. Hadziosmanovic after the rift was not one of my men, or

9 rather, he was not a man whose opinions I shared.

10 Q. And whose opinion did you share?

11 A. I had my own opinion, which was shared with other members who

12 believed that the duty of the Croatian army or rather the HVO and the army

13 of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina was to struggle for a unified state.

14 Q. The Croats at the referendum on an integral Bosnia-Herzegovina

15 voted in favour?

16 A. That is correct.

17 Q. If they had not voted in favour of a unified Bosnia-Herzegovina,

18 would Bosnia today be a unified country?

19 A. I'd rather not comment on that question. History has shown that

20 it has remained a unified country.

21 Q. But sir, please, you're a politician when necessary, and you know

22 everything. When I ask very clear questions, you know why the referendum

23 was called and with what aim in mind, so I'm asking you very clearly: If

24 the Croats had not voted in favour of a unified Bosnia at that referendum,

25 how would the political map of Bosnia-Herzegovina be today?

Page 1335

1 A. I think it was their duty as inhabitants of Bosnia-Herzegovina to

2 vote for that state of which they were nationals.

3 Q. On the basis of that referendum, Bosnia and Herzegovina was

4 recognised by the United Nations.

5 A. That is correct, but it was not only thanks to the Croats but

6 thanks to the other peoples living in that territory.

7 Q. The Serbs also voted for a unified country at that referendum?

8 A. I don't know. They didn't vote. There may have been a number of

9 Serbs who did vote in favour, but I don't know.

10 Q. When the referendum was called, what was the percentage of

11 Bosniaks in the population of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

12 A. Bosnia and Herzegovina, in Bosnia and Herzegovina, about 50 per

13 cent of the population were Muslims.

14 Q. So you could have won your independence at the referendum alone?

15 A. I'm sorry, but you're making me answer in your own words. You

16 are, through your questions, trying to impose your opinions on me.

17 Q. Please be kind enough and give me an answer. So could the

18 Bosniaks at the referendum have won their independence alone? Because I'm

19 following what you're saying. Yes or no, please tell me.

20 A. The results of the referendum are one thing. I wouldn't go into

21 any hypothetical forecasts, what would have been if it had been. Facts

22 have shown that everyone voted for a unified state and that, as such, it

23 was recognised. I really have no intention of making any assumptions. I

24 only wish to talk about the actual facts.

25 Q. The HVO is the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

Page 1336

1 A. No, but as a component, we recognised it as the army of the

2 Croatian people.

3 Q. The HVO were the government forces of Bosnia-Herzegovina in 1992?

4 A. I'm unable to answer that question. I'm not a military man but a

5 politician.

6 Q. I'm asking you in the political sense, were they the government

7 forces in 1992?

8 A. They were treated as government forces.

9 Q. You see, we can get an answer. Why does it take me so many

10 questions to get to the answer that both of us know is the right one?

11 The HVO armed the BH army or, rather, the Muslim people in the

12 struggle against the Serbs in Mostar?

13 A. I don't know that. I didn't get any rifles delivered to me

14 personally.

15 Q. The SDA was in no way involved in the preparations for the defence

16 against the Serbs in 1992?

17 A. You should ask Dr. Hadziosmanovic that because that was his area

18 of work.

19 Q. You said that he was an insignificant person.

20 A. As far as the Muslim people are concerned, yes, because he lost

21 the support of the rest of the people.

22 Q. So the HVO organised the defence of the Muslim people in the war

23 against the Serbs?

24 A. I would not agree with your opinion.

25 Q. Well, who led you, then?

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Page 1338

1 A. In the general chaos that set in, we defended ourselves. I don't

2 think that there were any particular, any particular leadership or

3 control.

4 Q. So you defended yourself as best you could?

5 A. I agree.

6 Q. Are you trying to say that Mostar liberated itself from the Serbs

7 in a defence that was organised in the way you have just described it?

8 A. No. There was resistance on the Muslim side, too.

9 Q. Let me ask you the questions.

10 A. Go ahead.

11 Q. A moment ago you said you defended yourselves as best you could;

12 now you already say you have an organised defence or resistance. So tell

13 us, how many organised Bosniaks were participating in the struggle?

14 A. The time of the Chetnik aggression -- at the time of the Chetnik

15 aggression, we were disorganised, as you know well. But when the Chetniks

16 captured the left bank, the 4th Corps of the army of Bosnia and

17 Herzegovina was established, so obviously there was an organisation.

18 Q. The 4th Corps of the BH army was established in 1992 in the war

19 against the Serbs?

20 A. Yes, that's right.

21 Q. And the HVO armed the 4th Corps?

22 A. I have no such information, nor do I know whether it did or not.

23 Q. Do you know where their weapons came from?

24 A. I do not.

25 Q. Did the SDA through its activist procure weapons?

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1 A. It probably -- weapons were procured in some way. How, I don't

2 know because it -- but it was established that the 4th Corps was armed.

3 Q. Thank you very much for your answers, because you're elaborating

4 exactly along the lines I would wish, though I didn't ask you that. I

5 asked you whether it was armed. Do you know what the possible sources

6 were for the SDA to get weapons?

7 A. I don't know.

8 Q. There was a war on. A party with a national programme in the

9 midst of a war. Your party headquarters were in Mostar. You were an

10 activist, and you don't know anything?

11 A. In my statement, I explained what my function was, what position I

12 held. I wish to avoid mentioning that position. And that position had

13 absolutely nothing to do with weapons or with arming or with the war

14 operations.

15 Q. You didn't perform that duty all day long from morning until night

16 and never went to the party offices?

17 A. What I did, I did briefly.

18 Q. So you never went to any party meetings?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Nor did anyone call you to attend?

21 A. No.

22 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Could we now go into private session,

23 please?

24 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Madam Registrar, please?

25 [Private session]

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5 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

6 5.10 p.m., to be reconvened on Tuesday the 31st day

7 of July, 2001, at 9.15 a.m.