Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1633

1 Thursday, 2 August 2001

2 [Depositions Hearing]

3 [Open session]

4 [The accused entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.24 a.m.

6 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Good morning. Please sit down.

7 Usher, please will you bring in the witness.

8 Good morning. I'm sorry about this delay, but as you know, this

9 afternoon a judgement will be pronounced, and there are always things

10 which have to be done at the last minute. Of course, this is none of your

11 concern, but it is the concern of others, and please accept my apologies.

12 Yes, Mr. Bos, I'm quite sure that you will shortly finish your

13 examination-in-chief. How long do you think it will take you?

14 MR. BOS: I think I can finish in another 15 or 20 minutes.

15 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] That will be perfect.

16 [The witness entered court]

17 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Witness K [sic], good morning. Can

18 you hear me well?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning. Yes, I can.

20 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Please take your seat.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Make yourself comfortable. Please

23 try to relax. I know that you are not really accustomed to testifying

24 before an International Tribunal, but just breathe in, breathe out, and

25 concentrate on your answers.

Page 1634

1 I'm sorry. It is Witness L. I seem to have said Witness K, if

2 that is the case.

3 So you will now continue to answer the questions that the

4 Prosecutor will ask of you for another 15 minutes or so, and then it will

5 be the turn of the Defence. All right?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All right.

7 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Prosecutor.

8 WITNESS: WITNESS L [Resumed]

9 [Witness answered through interpreter]

10 Examined by Mr. Bos: [Continued]

11 Q. Good morning.

12 A. Good morning.

13 Q. Before we continue with the examination, I would ask you, in

14 answer to my questions, if you could to articulate your answers as much as

15 possible. The interpreters find it difficult to hear you. So if you

16 could try to articulate your answers as much as possible, okay?

17 Now, yesterday when we left off, I asked you about two persons who

18 were taken in the cell adjacent to the cell where you and Arif Maric were

19 staying. Do you remember that?

20 A. I do.

21 Q. Did you find out the names of these two persons?

22 A. Yes. Mario Brkic, and the other one was Ante. I don't know his

23 last name.

24 THE INTERPRETER: Would the witness please come closer to the

25 microphones.

Page 1635

1 MR. BOS: Would you move up a little to the microphone so that the

2 interpreters can hear you. Thank you.

3 Q. Now, these two persons, what did you find out about them?

4 A. I learnt that they were members -- that is, one of them was a

5 member of the Ljubuski ATG and the other one of the Mostar ATG, and that

6 both had taken part in the attack on Rastani.

7 Q. Now, you said that one person's name was Mario Brkic. From which

8 ATG was he?

9 A. Ljubuski ATG.

10 Q. Why was it that these two persons were detained? Why was Mario

11 Brkic -- why was he detained in the tobacco station?

12 A. I do not know why he was detained there. All I know is that he

13 was beaten up right and proper. And he said he had been detained for

14 having taken $500 from a woman, from a sniper.

15 Q. And did you find out why Ante, of which you don't know the last

16 name, why he was detained?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Now, did at one time you and Arif Maric were taken out of the cell

19 and taken to another room or another building?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Do you remember when that was, approximately?

22 A. It happened sometime after the 10th of November, and we were taken

23 then to another building within the same compound. A guard came to fetch

24 us. He took us out, it was raining, and he forced us to run to that other

25 building, which was about 100 metres away, perhaps, or even less than

Page 1636

1 that, but it seemed to me very far because I was already emaciated by the

2 time and I couldn't really run. I was just too weak by that time. In

3 that other building were military policemen and they began to interrogate

4 us.

5 Q. How did you know that they were military police?

6 A. Because they had their white belts, and because they had military

7 police flashes.

8 Q. Please continue. What happened? What happened next?

9 A. And they began to interrogate us there, all of them, and all of

10 them almost in one voice, that is just as it occurred to them, and then

11 started to beat us. After a while, they took us out of that building, it

12 was raining, and told us to stand underneath the drain pipe, and we stood

13 there for about ten minutes. And then they left us sitting outside in

14 front of that building. It was quite cold and we began to shiver because

15 we were cold. Then they took us back into the building again, and they

16 proceeded with those questions of theirs, showing us newspapers with a

17 photograph which showed that the old bridge had been destroyed.

18 Q. Now, how many men -- how many men did this to you? You said there

19 was a group of military police. Do you recall how many of them there

20 were?

21 A. I think five or six of them in that group.

22 Q. And was there one particular person who appeared to be in charge?

23 A. Well, there was one who looked like being the one in charge. They

24 called him Robo, because the way he behaved, the way he spoke, he seemed

25 to be the boss there.

Page 1637

1 Q. Could you spell out his name, please, for us?

2 A. R-o-b-o.

3 Q. And this person called -- which you call Robo, did he at one

4 moment show you a photograph? Did he --

5 A. Yes, there was the photograph on the wall, about 30 times 40

6 centimetres or thereabouts, and he asked us, "Who is that person on the

7 photograph?" I didn't know. And it made him angry. How could it be that

8 I didn't know who that person was? Because I was supposed to know that.

9 And that that was one Cikota.

10 Q. Could you please spell out that name for us as well?

11 A. C-i-k-o-t-a.

12 Q. So what happened when you said that you didn't know the person?

13 Sorry?

14 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I apologise. I think this is now in

15 your favour. What the transcript says is Cikota, and I think the

16 gentleman said -- could you please repeat once again? I apologise, my

17 learned friend. What we heard was Tikota.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, no. It is C, Cikota.

19 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I see. It is C. Then the transcript

20 is all right. Then I apologise.

21 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Krsnik, yes. Your

22 microphone.

23 MR. BOS:

24 Q. Let me repeat my question. So how did this person you refer to as

25 Robo, how did he react when you said that you didn't know the person

Page 1638

1 Cikota which was on the photograph?

2 A. He didn't like it. He was furious that I didn't know who that

3 person was because it seemed as if we were supposed to know who that

4 person was, that it was an important person and that we were bound to know

5 who that man was.

6 Q. And after all this, were you taken back to your cell?

7 A. Yes. I was taken back to the cell.

8 Q. At one moment, were you taken to Ljubuski?

9 A. Yes. It could have been some ten days after that or thereabouts.

10 I'm not sure, but it was some days later that we were taken to Ljubuski.

11 In the morning, they came to take us out and then again took us to that

12 building where the military police was housed. They didn't tell us where

13 we were to go, but two vehicles arrived, a Mercedes and a Golf. Arif was

14 put in the boot of the Mercedes and I was put in the boot of the Golf.

15 And we set off. As I was in the Golf, I could see the road. I knew the

16 route we were taking because I knew the area. And we fetched up in front

17 of the prison in Ljubuski. That was the former police station in

18 Ljubuski. That is where they brought us. There they turned us over to

19 the military policemen in that prison.

20 Q. How long did you stay in Ljubuski?

21 A. We stayed there until March 1994, when we were released along with

22 all the other prisoners.

23 MR. BOS: Thank you. I have no further questions, thank you.

24 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Prosecutor and for the

25 defence? Will it be Mr. Krsnik? Yes, you have the floor.

Page 1639

1 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Fourmy.

2 Cross-examined by Mr. Krsnik:

3 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning.

4 A. Good morning.

5 Q. I'm lawyer Kresimir Krsnik and I'm counsel for the accused

6 Naletilic. I will ask you some questions and I shall try to phrase them

7 in such a way to enable you to give us as precise, as concise, as succinct

8 answers as possible. And to facilitate the work of the interpreters, you

9 see I make these little breaks. I always make these little breaks so as

10 to see to the quality -- so as to contribute to the quality of

11 interpretation.

12 When did you become a member of the Mountain Glorious Motorised

13 Brigade?

14 A. In April 1992.

15 Q. That 44 Mountain Motorised Glorious Brigade, did it have a joint

16 command with the HVO?

17 A. At that time, from 1992 onward, I wasn't in the command. I don't

18 know how it was arranged, how it was done. I know they operated together.

19 Q. In the 44 Mountain Glorious, were there any Croats in it?

20 A. There were.

21 Q. Can you tell us how many?

22 A. I wouldn't know the number. I was not in charge of personnel

23 affairs.

24 Q. How strong was the brigade?

25 A. I wouldn't know. I do not know how many of them there were.

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Page 1641

1 Q. You can't even give us a percentage of Croats compared with

2 others?

3 A. I simply just don't know. I don't know the percentage. I know

4 that there were some. How many, I don't know.

5 Q. Do you know who lived in the village of Rastani?

6 A. To a degree.

7 Q. Well, let's have this degree.

8 A. I think there were Muslims living there and Serbs. As for Croats,

9 I think they were the smallest group there.

10 Q. In Rastani, over 80 per cent were Serbs?

11 A. But at that moment there were no Serb inhabitants in Rastani [as

12 interpreted].

13 Q. I'm referring to the time before the conflict.

14 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Excuse me, Mr. Krsnik. I'm sorry to

15 have to interrupt you, but two things. You indicated to the witness to

16 try to make a break between the question and answer, and I think that the

17 reciprocal action would also be in order.

18 Secondly, I do not know if the English transcript is correct, but

19 it does not agree with what I hear in French, that is, about the Serb,

20 Croat, and Muslim population in the village of Rastani. So if it is

21 important for you, then will you please ascertain, because these -- so

22 that the two transcripts agree on that point.

23 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. Fourmy.

24 Q. Prior to 1992 - I'm repeating my question for the record - who

25 lived in the village of Rastani up to 1992?

Page 1642

1 A. There were Muslims, Serbs, and Croats living there.

2 Q. And after that, my next question was as follows: In Rastani, over

3 80 per cent of its population were Serbs?

4 A. I am not aware of the percentages. I do not know the shares of

5 those three groups.

6 Q. But the majority population was Serb?

7 A. I believe so. I believe that the Serbs were the majority,

8 followed by Muslims, followed by Croats, and there were a few Croats. I

9 believe there were only a few Croat houses there.

10 Q. Will you tell us where the village of Rastani is?

11 A. It is north of Mostar, north of the city centre of Mostar.

12 Q. Rastani is on the west coast, on the west bank of the Neretva?

13 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter believes the witness said yes.

14 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

15 Q. As you enter Rastani, as you take the road into Rastani, then you

16 enter west from the last -- from the westernmost point of Mostar, if I may

17 put it that way.

18 A. I don't understand you.

19 Q. Yes, you are quite right. I apologise. I have to rephrase this

20 question. Let's slow this down. How many kilometres is Rastani from

21 downtown Mostar?

22 A. Three to four kilometres.

23 Q. Between 1992 and 1995, did HVO have their positions on the right

24 bank of the Neretva River?

25 A. In 1993.

Page 1643

1 Q. In early 1993?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And the Serb population, did it move out of Rastani between the

4 Serb aggression in 1993?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And the village was empty?

7 A. It was not empty.

8 Q. I'm not referring now to the HVO soldiers; I'm referring to the

9 civilian population.

10 A. The Muslim population lived there.

11 Q. And they continued to do so in 1993?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And did Croats also live there?

14 A. Probably. I don't know.

15 Q. You mentioned that ABiH attacked Rastani and liberated the

16 village. Who did it liberate it from in 1993? You know what date I'm

17 referring to, because the Prosecutor mentioned it yesterday, that is, on

18 the 20th of September.

19 A. From the HVO.

20 Q. It was liberated from the HVO. What was the next task after they

21 had taken Rastani for the ABiH? What positions did they reach?

22 A. I do not know about the next task.

23 Q. But how far did you go in the direction of Mostar?

24 A. To the railroad tracks.

25 Q. How far is that from the centre of Mostar?

Page 1644

1 A. The same distance as Rastani.

2 Q. You're a soldier, you continue to be a professional soldier to

3 date. A soldier is given tasks; is that correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. What was your task on the 21st of September? What was the task

6 given you? Why did you go to Rastani, that is, to Vrapcici?

7 A. I do not understand.

8 Q. What was the task given you by your superiors on 21 September,

9 when you started in the direction of Vrapcici? That's spelled

10 V-r-a-p-c-i-c-i.

11 A. I was tasked to take some time off.

12 Q. You were given a task to take some time off and go to Vrapcici?

13 The same task was given to your fellow soldier?

14 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] And may we move into the private

15 session briefly?

16 This is just to protect your identity. This is what I'm concerned

17 about.

18 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Registrar, please, can we go to the

19 private session.

20 [Private session]

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

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9 [Open session]

10 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] We are in open session. Mr. Krsnik,

11 do you have a copy of this document, at least for the Prosecution?

12 Because I believe, given the format, it will be very difficult to place it

13 on the ELMO.

14 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] This is a document which we received

15 from the Prosecution, so they should have it, and you should also have

16 been provided with a copy, and we are grateful for this. This is Exhibit

17 number 34.3. This is a panoramic view of Rastani, of -- photograph taken

18 from the hills overlooking the village from the east.

19 If I can ask Mr. Usher to place the map in front of the witness,

20 we all have copies, and this way he's going to be able to mark certain

21 things. Mr. Usher, could you please place the whole, unfolded image in

22 front of the witness on the desk? And whatever the witness marks in his

23 own hand, we can then place on the ELMO. We all are -- will be able to

24 follow.

25 Q. Have you looked at this, and is this Rastani?

Page 1651

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Could you now please mark the HVO positions, where the ABiH came

3 from and where did you cross Neretva?

4 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Mr. Krsnik, I believe that this is --

5 that this is the original of the document. It's 14.3. Perhaps the

6 witness should be given a copy and then the copy can be separately

7 marked. This is the original that the Registry has. And will the

8 registrar please give it a number?

9 THE REGISTRAR: The number is D1/11.

10 MR. KRSNIK:

11 Q. [Interpretation] Could you mark with 1 the positions of the HVO?

12 A. Can you give us -- at what time?

13 Q. I'm following your movements?

14 A. I don't know what the 23rd was.

15 Q. Then give us the 21st.

16 A. I also don't know about the 21st. I wasn't there.

17 Q. I'm not asking you about the 20th because you said that you were

18 off duty, so I'm not asking you about that.

19 A. On the 20th -- on the night of the 20th, the night between the

20 20th and the 21st.

21 Q. Very well. First, will you mark where you crossed the Neretva

22 river?

23 A. You cannot see that detail on map. This is a little bit upstream.

24 Q. Towards the dam?

25 A. Yes, towards the dam.

Page 1652

1 Q. Sort of at the level of Bijelo Polje or further upstream?

2 A. No, towards the city.

3 Q. So you cannot see it on the picture?

4 A. No, I can't.

5 Q. Is that location called Sutina where you crossed?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Very well. It's in the record anyway now. On the night of the

8 20th, where were the ABiH positions?

9 A. Shall I mark them?

10 Q. Yes, you can have -- you can draw a line and then mark it with

11 number 1.

12 A. [Marks]

13 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Mr. Usher, can you just show where

14 the witness drew that line on the ELMO so we can also see where it is?

15 Very well. It's almost at -- near Mostar.

16 Q. So if I can see it well, the whole area of Rastani was liberated,

17 and I'm using the word that you used. I was also advised by my co-counsel

18 that the location where you crossed the Neretva river was not -- is not in

19 the transcript.

20 A. Sutina, S-u-t-i-n-a.

21 Q. If you can show me on the map, that's where you were and you were

22 headed to Vrapcici the night of the 20th, 21st?

23 A. The evening. It was evening of the 21st when I went to Vrapcici.

24 Q. And could you just point the direction you took as you headed to

25 Vrapcici? Also if you can mark it with a number 2 after you draw?

Page 1653

1 A. On the road towards the dam.

2 Q. Very well. You can just -- you can just mark it, say "direction

3 Vrapcici" and put an arrow or something.

4 A. [Marks]

5 Q. And you went on foot or were you given some type of vehicle?

6 A. On foot.

7 Q. Can you tell me: Now that you showed us the lines after you had

8 taken the village of Rastani, where was the HVO? That is, how far did you

9 push them back, or where did the HVO troops go after you pushed them

10 back? Where did they establish lines in relation to what you just drew?

11 A. Probably somewhere in the direction of the city. I did not see

12 them.

13 Q. From the point marked with number 1, which we marked, to the

14 town - not to the centre of town, but to the edge of town - what is the

15 distance?

16 A. Three kilometres.

17 Q. If you look at the picture, to the right, do you see hills?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. There is only this narrow belt alongside the river heading in the

20 direction of the city?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Witness, did you make a statement about the events in Rastani to

23 anyone else apart from my learned friend from the Prosecution?

24 A. Except the investigators?

25 Q. That's right.

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Page 1655

1 A. To the CSB Security Services Centre in Mostar.

2 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Mr. Krsnik, please -- no, no. But

3 before you proceed, I must say that I'm rather confused by this photograph

4 which you gave the witness to mark. I understand that you said that this

5 photograph was taken from the east, and I also thought I understood that

6 Vrapcici was east of the Neretva, which means that I somehow fail to put

7 together these two elements and the arrow which the witness put there. So

8 could we please clarify this.

9 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Yes, of course. Yes, I shall be

10 happy to do so. That was what I was about to do to complete this whole

11 picture, but with the help of the witness, because it is the witness that

12 has to do it.

13 Q. So will you please, for the Court, draw an arrow from your

14 positions to the right. Where does it lead to? No, no, no. We've

15 already established that. From the BH army to Mostar, and then write

16 "Mostar," and then show us where Vrapcici is, make a circle around it,

17 and tell us which point that is.

18 A. [Marks]

19 Q. No, this was not taken from the east. This photograph was taken

20 from a hill above Rastani, and that is to the west, from the -- as you

21 look from the positions of the BH army. But as to the cardinal points, it

22 is again from the west side -- again taken from the west, whereas Vrapcici

23 is to the east of Rastani, across the Neretva. On the east of the

24 Neretva?

25 A. That's right. You cannot see Vrapcici here.

Page 1656

1 Q. I know you can't see it, but it's up to you to tell us that. And

2 finally, I'd like to ask you to draw Dumpor's houses and put number 4, I

3 think, or is it 3? No, 3.

4 A. I don't think you can see it.

5 Q. But is it to the east, to the south, north?

6 A. To the north.

7 Q. Now you've lost me. When you say "north," is it the position in

8 the direction of movement towards Vrapcici, on the very rim of the

9 photograph, in this direction which you've described to us towards

10 Vrapcici?

11 A. That's right.

12 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13 Thank you, Mr. Usher. I will not need this photograph any more.

14 Q. So we were at the statement that you gave to the CSB Security

15 Services Centre. It is the Security Services Centre, isn't it?

16 A. It is.

17 Q. That is the so-called AID, isn't it, the civilian security

18 service?

19 A. I do not know. I know it only as CSB. I do not really know

20 what -- I do not know any other name.

21 Q. Will you please look at this document. It says

22 "Bosnia-Herzegovina." I will show you the document, even though I don't

23 think it is necessary, because I will ask you only a few questions about

24 it. It says: "Agency for Investigation and Documentation, Sector

25 Mostar." That is not the CSB. That's why I asked you.

Page 1657

1 A. But at the time when I gave the statement, that was what they were

2 called.

3 Q. And when was it that you gave that statement?

4 A. 1996. I think it was a long time ago. 1996 maybe. I don't

5 remember exactly.

6 Q. Did you make one or several statements to the CSB?

7 A. One.

8 Q. Because this statement was given to the investigation agency in

9 1997. Did you read that statement and sign it?

10 A. I did.

11 Q. Was it dictated to a typist or was there a computer there?

12 A. I believe there was a typewriter there.

13 Q. But the person who investigated you, did that person dictate to

14 the person who was writing?

15 A. I think it was typed as I talked.

16 Q. Yes, yes, yes.

17 A. But the person who conducted the interview with us at the same

18 time dictated. No. I think that same person typed [as interpreted].

19 Q. And conducted the interview?

20 A. That's right.

21 Q. There were no males?

22 A. What do you mean? Whether this was a male or a female person?

23 Q. Because I didn't understand who was it that conducted the

24 interview and who typed it.

25 A. Do you mean was it a man or a woman?

Page 1658

1 Q. I don't know. I'm asking you. If you don't know, then never

2 mind.

3 A. I don't know. I don't know.

4 Q. Well, why don't you say so?

5 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Mr. Fourmy, can I show it to the

6 witness, please, just to see if that is his signature, nothing else. I do

7 not think there is any need to tender or anything. I simply want to see

8 if that is the witness's signature. I believe my learned friends have

9 this document.

10 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] I do not know whether all the sides

11 have it, but perhaps you could specify for the transcript what it is, the

12 page and everything else, and perhaps we can remain in a public session,

13 if you agree. It doesn't have to be placed on the monitor.

14 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, yes, of course. It can all

15 be done. That is why I wanted to say I did not want to -- pile of papers,

16 because I do not know what it is. This is the 4th of April, 1997. I'm

17 sure you know about this record.

18 MR. BOS: Yes, we know about the document. But I think if a

19 document is shown to the witness, the document should be marked. It

20 doesn't necessarily have to be tendered as an exhibit, but it needs to be

21 marked just for the record.

22 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you.

23 Can we have a number, Madam Registrar, please.

24 THE REGISTRAR: The number will be D1/12, and it could be for

25 identification only.

Page 1659

1 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you. That is because --

2 because you see all this heap of papers, and I was given the statement by

3 you, so you -- I have the same document as you do, and all I wanted to see

4 is the signature. Nobody else has this copy. I simply didn't think it

5 was -- as I said, for me to copy so many English -- to make so many

6 English copies, so many B/C/S copies. Only because of that. I'm not

7 going to tender it. I'm not going to tackle this document in any other

8 way. I merely want to ascertain the signature.

9 Q. Is that your signature? Will you only look at the last page.

10 A. It is.

11 Q. Thank you. That's as far as this document is concerned. And you

12 say -- you said after questions and the spontaneous conversation, all that

13 you said there was true?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Because, you see, that statement of yours is fundamentally

16 different from the statement that you made later and from your evidence

17 today. But never mind. All I want to ask you: You have it there. You

18 say that -- it doesn't say here that you were on a vacation. It says that

19 you were on a mission with Maric, that other colleague, not you. We are

20 in a public session, so I won't go into that.

21 You were ordered to take ammunition and bring it back. It says

22 here: "To take ammunition." You described your route, and all that

23 period of time until you were found in those houses. So tell us, what is

24 true: that you were on a vacation and just happened to turn up there, or

25 were you on a mission?

Page 1660

1 A. I wasn't on a vacation. I went for -- I went on a leave after my

2 shift.

3 Q. Right. Leave after a shift. Were you on a leave after a shift or

4 were you, on the 22nd, in the evening -- you are referring to the 22nd.

5 Today you said between the 20th and the 21st, that that was that night

6 when you came to Rastani on a leave. That's what you said today, that you

7 came to Rastani on a leave. Was it a leave after a shift or some other

8 leave?

9 A. No, no, no. I think we are talking at cross-purposes. I didn't

10 go on a leave to Rastani.

11 Q. But at the beginning of my cross-examination, you told me that you

12 had come on a leave. I don't think I'm wrong, but we can look at the

13 transcript. Now I'm asking you, what is the truth? When you were

14 arrested on the 23rd with all that, were you on a mission or on leave?

15 A. On a mission.

16 Q. And did you come to Rastani on a leave or on a mission?

17 A. On the 23rd, on a mission.

18 Q. And between the 20th and the 21st?

19 A. On a mission.

20 Q. So it is not true that you came there on a leave in the night

21 between the 20th and 21st?

22 THE INTERPRETER: The witness indicates no.

23 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

24 Q. So what you said at the beginning of the cross-examination when I

25 asked you why did you come to Rastani, you said it was on a leave, that

Page 1661

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Page 1662

1 was not true?

2 THE INTERPRETER: The witness indicates no.

3 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Will you please speak up.

5 A. No

6 Q. What kind of a weapon did you have with you at the time of your

7 arrest?

8 A. A rifle.

9 Q. What rifle?

10 A. A machine-gun.

11 Q. You mean a machine-gun?

12 A. No, no, no.

13 Q. A Kalashnikov is a rifle?

14 A. That's right, yes.

15 Q. So it's an AK 47, isn't it?

16 A. Yes, that's right.

17 Q. And your colleague, I won't mention his name now, what did he

18 have?

19 A. Same thing.

20 Q. And didn't you have a type of mines with you?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Any grenades?

23 A. Perhaps, I don't remember.

24 Q. Weren't some hand grenades found in your backpack? Wasn't it full

25 of hand grenades?

Page 1663

1 A. No.

2 Q. And your colleague's?

3 A. No.

4 Q. So this "perhaps," when you said "perhaps," does it mean perhaps

5 you had and perhaps you didn't have? Now, what is it, did you or not?

6 A. I did not have them.

7 Q. And do you know as regards your colleague?

8 A. I'm not sure. I don't know.

9 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I'll try to finish within five or ten

10 minutes. If you think we need a break, all right, but I won't need more

11 than ten minutes on the outside. Then we have to go into private session

12 for one question only. Can we, please?

13 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Very well. Madam Registrar, private

14 session.

15 [Private session]

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 1664

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7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 [Open session]

19 MR. KRSNIK:

20 Q. [Interpretation] And tell us, after this statement to the CSB, you

21 made a statement to the investigators, didn't you?

22 A. I did.

23 Q. And did you tell the truth on that occasion?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Is Robo Tuta's son?

Page 1665

1 A. I don't know.

2 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I have no further questions. Thank

3 you very much.

4 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Krsnik. Mr. Seric,

5 will you have questions for this witness?

6 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] In his testimony, the witness has

7 given no cause to the -- to Mr. Vinko Martinovic's Defence for any

8 cross-examination because he had no points of contact with my client.

9 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. Seric.

10 Mr. Krsnik, will you please switch off your microphone? Can you

11 please do that? Thank you.

12 Prosecutor, do you have any additional questions to ask of this

13 witness?

14 MR. BOS: No, Mr. Fourmy, I don't have any additional questions.

15 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you,

16 Mr. Prosecutor.

17 In that case, Witness L, your deposition has come to an end. I'd

18 like -- I would like to thank you for the contribution -- for your

19 contribution to this case. It will be transmitted to the judges. But

20 now, please, wait until the usher helps you leave the courtroom. That is

21 until the blinds are pulled down. Thank you very much for coming here,

22 and I wish you a very happy return to your country of residence. Thank

23 you.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Mr. Prosecutor, if the Defence

Page 1666

1 agrees, I would suggest to make a break now and to resume at 11.00, and

2 then we shall hear the next witness. Is that agreeable to the parties?

3 For the next witness, do we have any protection measures and are they

4 identical with the measures applied in this case?

5 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Yes, you're right, the same protective measures

6 are requested by the witness.

7 [The witness withdrew]

8 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] In that case, we shall adjourn until

9 11.00. Thank you.

10 --- Recess taken at 10.35 a.m.

11 --- On resuming at 11.02 a.m.

12 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] We recommence. Mr. Usher, will you

13 please call in the next witness?

14 Mr. Prosecutor, will you please tell us how long do you expect

15 your next witness to take?

16 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Mr. Fourmy, it seems to me that I'm the only one

17 to whom you address such kind of questions.

18 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Because so far, you not only have

19 kept your word but you have been the fastest of all, and I appreciate

20 that.

21 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Thank you very much. Traditionally, I will need

22 not more than one hour.

23 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24 [The witness entered court]

25 THE REGISTRAR: The witness's pseudonym will be M.

Page 1667

1 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Good morning, can you hear me?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can hear you.

3 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] You have requested protective

4 measures, and the protective measures have been granted to you. That

5 includes the face distortion and you will also be given a pseudonym. This

6 pseudonym for you will be Witness M. So please, if you are addressed as

7 Witness M, let that not upset you. This is the name that will be used by

8 everybody in the courtroom. And before we proceed to the evidence, will

9 you please read the solemn declaration that the usher is proffering.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

11 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

12 WITNESS: WITNESS M

13 [Witness answered through interpreter]

14 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you, will you sit down,

15 please? Please try to find a comfortable position, relax. You will first

16 respond to questions asked by the Prosecutor and then it will be the turn

17 of the Defence to examine you. Before you start, I will ask you to look

18 at the piece of paper that the usher is going to place in front of you.

19 Please do not mention the name, just confirm that that indeed is your full

20 name. Is this your name?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

22 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you. Mr. Usher, will you

23 please show this document to the parties?

24 And now, Mr. Prosecutor, you have the floor.

25 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Thank you

Page 1668

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Page 1669

1 Examined by Mr. Poriouvaev:

2 Q. Witness M, were you a member of any military formation during the

3 war in 1992, 1993, in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

4 A. Yes, I was a member of the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina or more

5 specifically, the Bregava Brigade.

6 Q. When did you join it?

7 A. On 2nd September, 1992.

8 Q. Did you have any military rank?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Who was in command of your unit?

11 A. The commander was Mr. Bajro Pizovic.

12 Q. Where did your units hold the lines in 1992 and the beginning of

13 1993?

14 A. We held the line in the village of Rotimlja, which is in the

15 municipality of Stolac.

16 Q. What kind of tasks did you have? I mean your unit, not personally

17 you.

18 A. We kept the line facing the Chetniks. That was in the area of

19 Podvelezje, or the Velez foothills.

20 Q. Were there any tensions between the HVO and Armija at that time,

21 at the time when you were holding the lines against the Serbs, and

22 afterwards?

23 A. At first there were no tensions. In fact, even the command

24 cooperated. But later on, in April 1993, some minor incidents started,

25 like firings, but nothing very serious.

Page 1670

1 Q. Did these tensions have any implications in the area of Rotimlja,

2 where your unit was located?

3 A. Later on, on the 16th of April. We used to receive food from

4 Gubavica, another village in the Mostar municipality, but then they set up

5 barricades and did not allow deliveries of food to Rotimlja.

6 Q. Were there any changes in the relationship between HVO and Armija

7 in May 1993?

8 A. Specifically in our sector, yes, but there were still regular

9 meetings held with their command. So as far as troops were concerned,

10 there was nothing very serious.

11 Q. Were you ever arrested during the war of 1993?

12 A. Yes. I was arrested on 13th of June, 1993, at the village of

13 Rotimlja, by the Croatian Defence Council.

14 Q. Was your unit at the time involved in any combat?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Why do you think that you were arrested by HVO soldiers?

17 A. I recognised them by their insignia.

18 Q. Could you describe the insignia they had?

19 A. The Croatian Defence Council emblem, their coat of arms.

20 Q. Did you put up any resistance to the HVO while being arrested?

21 A. No, at least not the group that I was a part of that was arrested.

22 Q. How many soldiers from your platoon or unit were arrested along

23 with you?

24 A. About 45 soldiers.

25 Q. Where were you taken after the arrest?

Page 1671

1 A. After the arrest they took us to Capljina, to Gabela.

2 Q. Gabela. What's that? What kind of building or area is it, or was

3 it, at that time, at least?

4 A. That was, in fact, a building where they used to house detainees

5 even before. In other words, it used to be a prison earlier.

6 Q. Were you registered in Gabela after you arrived there?

7 A. Yes, by the warden of the prison, whose nickname was Boko.

8 Q. Did they interview you on the arrival to Gabela?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Did you see any other prisoners in Gabela who were taken,

11 imprisoned, before?

12 A. Yes. I saw Bajro Pizovic, our commander, and another few men

13 whose names I do not recall. But I remembered Bajro especially because

14 they brought him out to see where his troops were.

15 Q. How long did you stay in Gabela?

16 A. Three or four hours. Not long.

17 Q. Where were you taken afterwards?

18 A. Afterwards we were taken to Heliodrom in Mostar.

19 Q. In which building did they put you up?

20 A. In the central prison building in Heliodrom.

21 Q. Did they take you all together, I mean, people who had been

22 arrested before, in Rotimlja?

23 A. All except three. Three were kept in Gabela.

24 Q. In which area of the central prison were you kept?

25 A. The first night in solitary cells in the basement of the prison

Page 1672

1 building.

2 Q. How long did they keep you there?

3 A. In the solitary, we were 10 to 12 per cells, that's how they

4 divided us, and we spent one night there. In the morning, they

5 transferred us to the attic of the building, for reasons that at that time

6 we did not know. And a hour later perhaps, members of the International

7 Red Cross came to the room where we were placed, and that's when we were

8 registered. After the ICRC members left the building, we were taken back

9 to the basement and placed in one large room, but we were all together now

10 in this room.

11 Q. Do you remember which administrative or military body was in

12 charge of Heliodrom?

13 A. The military police.

14 Q. How do you know that?

15 A. They had white belts and I believe they had on the left shoulder,

16 they had insignia characteristics for the military police at that time and

17 the military police emblems.

18 Q. You just told us that you were kept in the basement for about 20

19 days. Did they move them -- you, I mean, somewhere else?

20 A. About 20 days later, we were moved to the first floor of the

21 prison, all to another large room.

22 Q. Were there any other prisoners besides you, I mean people taken in

23 Rotimlja?

24 A. All of us who were at Rotimlja were there except for those three

25 who were kept back at the Gabela, and in the adjoining room, down the same

Page 1673

1 hallway, there were members of the HVO who were detained there, and I

2 don't know the reasons for their detention.

3 Q. Did you communicate with them?

4 A. In the morning, we did communicate, very little, in fact, among

5 ourselves. And later on, that communication was stopped.

6 Q. Were there female prisoners in Heliodrom? I mean in the building

7 where you were kept.

8 A. Yes. In the attic, there were female detainees.

9 Q. Were there any male civilians in Heliodrom? I mean in the same

10 building.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. How long did you stay in Heliodrom from the moment of your arrival

13 there and release?

14 A. You mean the total time spent in the prison?

15 Q. Yes, yes.

16 A. 280 days.

17 Q. Were there any changes in the prison population in that period of

18 time? I mean increase of the prison population, decrease?

19 A. The number increased. On the 3rd of July, people were brought to

20 Heliodrom en masse. Everything was packed.

21 Q. Did you associate this event with something that was happening in

22 Mostar or in other areas of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

23 A. According to what these people were saying, the HVO had attacked

24 members of the ABiH, that is attacked the left bank, and people who were

25 on the right bank of the Neretva river were just summarily arrested.

Page 1674

1 Q. Did you know about any military units deployed in Heliodrom or

2 next to Heliodrom?

3 A. In Heliodrom the 9th Battalion was deployed. That was an HVO

4 unit. And later on, I observed that the Tigers, members of the Croatian

5 army, were also deployed there.

6 Q. Why do you think that they were from Croatia? I mean the Tigers.

7 A. Because they had the characteristic name, Tigers. And we saw

8 their emblems. They read "HV," not "HVO." And also they had a different

9 accent, they spoke a different dialect. We could notice that they were

10 not from the area.

11 Q. Do you remember any other units?

12 A. Not within the building but later on, I also observed that

13 Thunderbolts, or Gromovi, also members of the Croatian army, they were

14 deployed -- stationed in Hodbina south of Mostar.

15 Q. Okay. Thank you. Did they ever take you outside of Heliodrom?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. For what purposes?

18 A. We were engaged in various types of labour, cleanup, digging

19 trenches, carrying bags, and clearing the terrain in front of them.

20 Q. Did you volunteer ever to do this job?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Were you born in Mostar?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Did you know the area of Mostar at that time? I mean the time

25 while you were kept in Heliodrom.

Page 1675

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Page 1676

1 A. Very little. That was the first time that I found myself in that

2 area of Mostar.

3 Q. Do you know the area of Mostar now?

4 A. Well, fairly well.

5 Q. Was Mostar the only area you were taken to perform forced labour

6 now, if you can say?

7 A. Not to Mostar in terms of the city itself. I went to Hodbina, and

8 the area up towards Bijelo Polje, Djubrani, Mount Hum. So it's in all the

9 areas where there -- the fighting was going on.

10 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Excuse me, Mr. Prosecutor. Perhaps

11 we have a problem with the transcript, if you can clarify it, please.

12 [Technical difficulty]

13 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Are the problems resolved now?

14 I believe that you want to go back to the question where we were

15 interrupted, where the transcript was stopped.

16 MR. PORIOUVAEV:

17 Q. Witness, I think that we should repeat the names of locations you

18 were taken from Heliodrom to perform forced labour.

19 A. I'll list it first. Hodbina, Laksevine, Aerodrom --

20 Q. All the locations must be properly entered in the transcript.

21 A. Hodbina, Laksevine, Aerodrom, Rodoc, Hum, Bulevar, Santiceva

22 Street, Rudnik, Rastani, Djubrani. That's it.

23 Q. Okay. Did you know anything about the confrontation line in

24 Mostar at that time?

25 A. Well, I knew there was shooting there, but at first I didn't know

Page 1677

1 where the lines were.

2 Q. Where did you get to know that?

3 A. Well, I came to know it when I started to work there.

4 Q. When did it happen?

5 A. The first time I went out to work was in late June, and we worked

6 at the Harem Balinovac.

7 Q. What kind of job did you perform there?

8 A. We were digging graves. The first day we only dug graves.

9 Q. How many days did you work there?

10 A. Three.

11 Q. How many graves did you make there?

12 A. We dug a large grave, and the next day we buried there 14 or 16

13 people. I can't remember exactly.

14 Q. Were all the people soldiers?

15 A. There were soldiers and there were civilians, people in civilian

16 clothes.

17 Q. Among the locations you used to perform forced labour, you listed

18 Santiceva Street. Do you associate any incidents with Santiceva Street, I

19 mean particular incidents that are engraved in your memory?

20 A. On one occasion they took us to somewhere around the building of

21 the prison in Mostar and that is Santiceva Street. And I don't remember

22 the name of the commander, but he brought two or three packages with

23 explosives and empty fire extinguisher bottles, and he ordered us to fill

24 them with explosives.

25 Q. Do you remember perhaps the month, and could you specify the

Page 1678

1 location in Santiceva Street where it happened?

2 A. Well, the month could be mid-August, and that was a building near

3 the prison, but I can't really place it specifically now.

4 Q. Were there any prisoners wounded or killed on that day?

5 A. The evening before that I think we were working -- it was

6 night-time, Santiceva Street again. And there was very -- there was huge

7 gunfire going on. And I remember that three men next to me were wounded

8 by a grenade, and they were taken away to have their wounds dressed in the

9 hospital, I presume, and we went on working.

10 Q. Do you remember any incidents when people were killed and you were

11 an eyewitness to that? By "people," I mean prisoners.

12 A. To have seen murders directly, a murder happen, no, I did not see

13 that, but I had to collect the bodies of dead prisoners.

14 Q. Do you remember their names, and how many bodies did you collect?

15 A. The names I don't recall because I didn't know those people. I

16 remember some of those who were killed who came from my municipality, who

17 were killed while engaged in forced labour, but I wasn't an eyewitness to

18 their deaths.

19 Q. Could you give their names?

20 A. Enes Pajo and Puzic. Was his first name Enver? I think so.

21 Q. And you say that you knew these people because they were from your

22 municipality?

23 A. Right.

24 Q. Among the places you mentioned here was Bulevar.

25 A. Yes.

Page 1679

1 Q. Did you perform forced labour there?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Again, do you remember any incidents associated with Bulevar while

4 you were performing forced labour there?

5 A. They brought us to Bulevar one morning, took us to a building, and

6 we sat down for about two or three minutes. We sat down waiting to see

7 what would be with us next. And then, in a car, I guess, but a man got

8 off a car, a man I didn't know at the time, and when he saw us sitting

9 there, he immediately resorted to foul language and more or less said,

10 "Stand up, balijas. Do you know who have you come to work for?" And he

11 said his name was Stela.

12 Q. Okay. Did you hear this name before?

13 A. No. It was in the very early days of my forced labour.

14 Q. Do you remember the place where you were performing forced labour

15 at that time, a location on Bulevar or adjacent area?

16 A. Well, that is the Bulevar, and that must be the house, as I heard

17 later, of one Kajta's. That's where the command was.

18 Q. Do you associate this name with some command or -- I mean Stela.

19 A. I think that that's where the command was stationed, because he

20 had many people with him there, and I think it was his seat, his command.

21 Q. Was it the -- I'm sorry. Was it only once that you were taken

22 there?

23 A. There, only once.

24 Q. Okay. What about other areas, I mean outside Mostar, where you

25 performed forced labour? What could you tell us?

Page 1680

1 A. At Djubrani, Rastani, as I have already said.

2 Q. Yes. Let's begin with Djubrani and Rastani.

3 A. I went to Djubrani on the 20th of September, 1993. They came to

4 fetch us, that is, members of the HVO came to the prison at Heliodrom.

5 Q. One moment, Witness?

6 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Mr. Fourmy, I think that we should go into a

7 private session now, because the witness may give some names of people who

8 potentially may be called to this courtroom, so the identity should be

9 protected. And our witness's identity should not be revealed somehow.

10 Are we in private?

11 [Private session]

12 (redacted)

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17 (redacted)

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Page 1687

1 (redacted)

2 [Open session]

3 A. I believe his name is Nikica. We had met him in --

4 MR. PORIOUVAEV: One moment, the registrar is not ready.

5 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] We are in an open session.

6 MR. PORIOUVAEV:

7 Q. Go ahead, please.

8 A. I believe his name is Nikica, and when we got there, when we were

9 arrested and taken to Heliodrom, we came to know him, that is he told --

10 he gave us some advice as to what we were allowed to do and what we were

11 not. He was a decent man, and we saw him with that group as we were

12 descending towards Rastani. So that we put two and two together and

13 associated it with that Convicts Battalion, and I believe that all of them

14 came from that Convicts Battalion.

15 Q. But did this Nikica tell you that he was from the Convicts

16 Battalion unit?

17 A. No. We did not communicate with him because we were not allowed

18 to. It was only by the expression on his face that we could see that he

19 was really afraid, and I do not -- and I think he was there against his

20 own will.

21 Q. Had you heard Tuta's name before you headed first to Rastani?

22 A. In Rastani for the first time.

23 Q. All right. Did you see any other Armija soldiers in Rastani,

24 apart from you prisoners?

25 A. When we climbed down through the village, they always communicated

Page 1688

1 via Motorolas. And at one point, it was reported that two members of the

2 ABiH had been captured. So we went -- started out in the direction of

3 this group, and that's where I saw two members of ABiH who had been

4 captured.

5 Q. What were they doing?

6 A. They were beating them when we arrived there.

7 Q. Who was beating them?

8 A. Member of the HVO that had captured them. They were beating them

9 terribly. It's hard to describe. They were kicking them, they were

10 hitting them with rifle butts, they were punching them. In the end, they

11 even doused them in petrol, intending to set them on fire, but they

12 didn't.

13 Q. When were you taken back to Heliodrom?

14 A. That night after they had taken Rastani, when the operation was

15 over, we all gathered at the silo in Rastani, and from there we were taken

16 back to Heliodrom, and the two ABiH members who had been captured were

17 taken in an unknown direction.

18 Q. All right. And my last question: Just prior to Rastani incidents

19 we were talking about Bulevar and Mr. Stela. Do you know the name of the

20 unit commanded by Stela?

21 A. Later on I heard that their name was Mrmak.

22 Q. Okay. And allow me one more question. I'm sorry. Did you report

23 about the incident with those two ABiH soldiers in Rastani to the Red

24 Cross?

25 A. Yes, we did. The first time when the ICRC arrived at Heliodrom we

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1 told them about this incident.

2 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Thank you very much, Witness.

3 My examination is over. Thank you very much.

4 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you. I am not going to ask you

5 how long you took and I'm not going to hold you for the time that you had

6 set out in advance, because of the technical problems that we had.

7 Now I'm turning to the Defence. Mr. Krsnik, you have the floor.

8 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Fourmy. The Defence

9 has a suggestion. We hoped that we would be able to finish by the end of

10 the working hours today, but due to certain changes that took place

11 today - and I'm not going to address it now - I believe that we will take

12 about 45 minutes. I'm not sure whether we should proceed today at all,

13 since we have one witness left for tomorrow, and due to your own

14 obligations that you mentioned. Perhaps I can suggest that we can just

15 adjourn today and continue tomorrow with the cross-examination, and then

16 I'm sure that we will be well within bounds in dealing with the following

17 witness, of course, provided that all parties agree to this approach.

18 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Mr. Krsnik, I do appreciate your

19 suggestion. My grandmother used to say, "Don't put off until tomorrow

20 what you can do today." Perhaps I can suggest that we do try to move

21 along today with this witness. We can complete part of his

22 cross-examination and then complete his evidence tomorrow and stay on

23 track for the next witness too.

24 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you. Of course we will go on,

25 and the cross-examination will be conducted by my co-counsel, Drenski

Page 1691

1 Lasan. And you see, we learn something every day. We heard this fine

2 saying today.

3 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Please take your time. You see that

4 the technical equipment does show some shortcomings sometimes. Please

5 take your time.

6 MS. LASAN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Fourmy.

7 Cross-examined by Ms. Lasan:

8 Q. Witness M, my name is Visnja Drenski Lasan. I'm co-counsel in

9 this case. I represent the accused Mladen Naletilic, "Tuta." On behalf

10 of the Defence, I will ask you some questions related to your evidence

11 today.

12 You were answering questions by my learned colleague, but I will

13 also ask you some questions in respect of the statements that you had

14 given previously before you arrived at The Hague. I believe that you will

15 be able to confirm for me that so far you have given two statements

16 relating to the incidents which you witnessed.

17 A. That is correct.

18 Q. And these are the statements that were not given to the same set

19 of investigators; is that correct?

20 A. Shall I tell you to whom I gave them?

21 Q. Yes, please do.

22 A. I gave my first statement to the Public Securities Centre in

23 Mostar and the second one to the International Tribunal in Sarajevo.

24 Q. That is correct. Let me just refresh your memory. The statement

25 that you said you gave to the Security Services Centre was given on June

Page 1692

1 1996?

2 A. I don't recall the exact date, but it was sometime in 1996.

3 Q. And the statement you gave to the Tribunal personnel was given on

4 27 February 1998? Is that possible? Of course, it is unlikely that you

5 would recall the exact date, but I trust that you would remember what you

6 were saying at the time.

7 A. Some time has passed by, but approximately.

8 Q. This is just to verify your statements. When you gave your

9 statements, every time at the end of giving the statement you were advised

10 of what was written down, you were given an opportunity to review what was

11 recorded, and you eventually signed that statement; is that correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Can you please tell me: In both cases, everything that you said

14 at the time was accurately and truthfully recorded?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And this is the reason for your signing these statements?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Taking into account your age as of today, will you agree with me

19 that in 1992, 1993, you must have been fairly young when you experienced

20 everything that you related to us?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Can you tell me: In regard of your recollection, what is it

23 like? Do you have any problems with your memory or do you have full

24 recall of things?

25 A. Well, perhaps some details are missing. They may not be fully

Page 1693

1 clear, because a certain amount of time has passed. I don't know if I can

2 remember everything. Years have gone by. Plus, I'm trying to forget all

3 this.

4 Q. I fully understand you, and on the basis of what you just said, I

5 can conclude that you would have recalled more and better the specific

6 incidents on which you testified back then than today, which is 2001, so

7 five years after having given the initial statements.

8 A. Yes, that is correct.

9 MS. LASAN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10 Mr. Presiding Officer, I have several questions coming up which

11 relate to the personal circumstances of this witness, and I would ask that

12 we, for that portion, move into private session.

13 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Madam Registrar, will you please ...

14 [Private session]

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5 [Open session]

6 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Mr. Prosecutor, do you want -- you

7 wanted to make an intervention now. Do you need a private session for

8 that or can you do this in open session?

9 MR. SCOTT: No, Mr. Fourmy, public session is fine. I'm happy to

10 do it in front of the witness or -- I just wanted to reserve -- indulge in

11 everyone's -- please ask everyone's patience, if I can just have two more

12 minutes to raise a matter that I prefer to raise today rather than wait to

13 tomorrow. If you prefer to dismiss the witness, we can do that, or I'm

14 happy to do it -- it's nothing that's particularly sensitive. We can do

15 it with the witness in the courtroom. It's up to you.

16 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Well, you know, if the witness has to

17 leave prior to your intervention, then we have to bring the blinds down

18 and everything, if you will wait for the usher to take the witness out. I

19 don't know which will take more time.

20 MR. SCOTT: We can do it with the witness, if there is no

21 objection from counsel. This is the matter we discussed yesterday. And I

22 think we can save time if we do it. I hope the witness will bear with us

23 for a couple of minutes.

24 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Then, Witness, will you please be

25 patient with us for a moment?

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Page 1704

1 Yes, Mr. Prosecutor.

2 MR. SCOTT: Mr. Fourmy, thank you. And I apologise for taking us

3 a bit further past the 12.30 hour. However, I want to raise this today

4 because my grandmother used to tell me don't put things off to the last

5 minute. Grandmothers, I think, are full of wisdom probably in all of our

6 cultures, whether they are Croat or French or American.

7 Mr. Fourmy, the matter I wanted to raise was -- and I want to be

8 clear about this, that none of us -- I've discussed this with both

9 counsel, both teams of the Defence, and we are all in agreement, I'm happy

10 to say, on this matter, and none of us are raising this as a complaint, as

11 it were, or casting any stones. However, I'm sure you can understand that

12 we are now, all of us, something a little more than 30 days away from what

13 could be a trial date, and I say that very specifically, what could be a

14 trial date, because in reality we don't have a trial date. We've never

15 had a scheduling order. We have no Chamber, and we have no trial dates.

16 And in discussing it with Defence counsel, it would certainly benefit all

17 of us to further the rest of our planning if that -- such information

18 could be provided as soon as possible.

19 I say that to you, Mr. Fourmy, fully realising, as I'm sure my

20 learned friends do, that you cannot provide that answer, and my comments

21 are not directed at you personally, of course. And I hope you understand

22 that. But as the presiding officer, we must direct our concerns to you so

23 that hopefully you can communicate them to the appropriate persons.

24 But I am sure that again I speak for all of us, and certainly for

25 the Prosecution, we are now at the final stages of trial preparation, I

Page 1705

1 mean a matter of the last few weeks, and I'm sure you know, Mr. Fourmy,

2 based on your long experience, that this time period is one of great

3 activity with many, many things to do and schedules that have to be

4 addressed in terms of witnesses and all sorts of things. In this context,

5 I think it's fair to say that even as much of a time difference as a week

6 or two or three can be very significant. We know that we have been told

7 that there might be a trial sometime around the 10th of September. But if

8 that were to slide -- if that might slide by a week or two weeks or three

9 weeks or anything, again, that amount of time, at this juncture, is

10 significant for planning purposes.

11 And so again - and I'll let my learned friends make their own

12 comments - but Mr. Fourmy, we would greatly appreciate any assistance that

13 the Registry and the Judges could possibly give us with some more concrete

14 information as soon as possible on our Chamber and on the trial date.

15 Thank you for hearing me.

16 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Prosecutor.

17 I do not know if the Defence has something to say on the subject.

18 Mr. Krsnik?

19 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Fourmy. And I -- and

20 my thanks to my learned friend for raising the matter. Yes, we talked

21 about it yesterday, and our -- the concern is shared, but we already did

22 so at the Status Conference, so I do not have anything else to add to what

23 my learned friend has said. Thank you.

24 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25 Mr. Seric?

Page 1706

1 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Yes. I fully agree with my friends

2 from the Prosecution and Mr. Krsnik, but I'd support that by saying that

3 the Defence really insists on getting, at the earliest possible day - that

4 is, if possible, even today - to get the list of witnesses for the main

5 hearing so that we can prepare and step up our work. I believe that the

6 reasonable deadline for the submission of this material is long past. Of

7 course, we do not hold it against our learned friends, and we support

8 their attitude, because we think that between today and the 10th of

9 September, there isn't really much time, and that is when the main hearing

10 should start. And I am afraid that the Defence is already suffering

11 because it has not received this documentation.

12 Therefore, I also second the suggestion to defer the main

13 hearing. That would also enable the Prosecution to disclose to us the

14 final list and order of appearance of witnesses. Thank you.

15 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Seric.

16 Mr. Krsnik?

17 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Fourmy. I mean, I

18 know that you saw the record of the Status Conference and I heard the

19 instructions of the Honourable Judge Wald. We resolved a number of things

20 there, so that I do not have anything else to add to this, and I fully

21 share the opinion of my colleagues and second it also. Thank you.

22 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] The Prosecutor, as regards the list

23 of witnesses? Because I believe this is the only document that you need

24 now. As for the rest of disclosures, I believe there are no other -- at

25 least, I hope there are no problems regarding that.

Page 1707

1 MR. SCOTT: Mr. Fourmy, counsel are correct. Of course, the

2 record will speak for itself. At the Status Conference with Judge Wald,

3 the agreement was that the Prosecution would provide notice of the first

4 batch, if you will, some first group of witnesses, in terms of the order

5 that they would be called, and we have certainly agreed to do that and

6 have every intention of doing that.

7 We also intend, in the very near future, to file an amended or

8 further 65 ter witness list, and that's being worked on as I -- literally

9 as I speak. So those things are in progress. But again -- and I do not

10 withdraw from those commitments for one moment. But again, that brings us

11 back to the question of the trial date, and certain disclosures that are

12 in connection with it work backwards from a trial date, and that again

13 just highlights the importance of having a firm date as soon as possible.

14 Thank you.

15 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. Prosecutor.

16 I do not wish to detain you too long here, but only a few words, and very

17 quickly. You know that indeed the 10th of September was repeatedly

18 mentioned. To my knowledge, this date is still valid. The main hearing

19 should take place before a Chamber consisting of one permanent Judge and

20 two ad litem Judges. It is therefore necessary for these two Judges to be

21 nominated, and they are about to be. That is, a group of ad litem Judges

22 will be able to undertake their duties, I believe, on the 1st of

23 September. I'm not sure of the date, but that will happen shortly.

24 They're about to be designated, and it is only now that the President of

25 the Tribunal will be able to organise the Chambers which will then hear

Page 1708

1 the cases. What I am telling you now is the only information that I have

2 available.

3 With Madam Registrar, I will communicate your concerns as to the

4 exact date of the beginning of the trial, both to the Registrar, to the

5 Deputy Registrar, and the President and his office. And rest assured that

6 we shall do whatever is within our power so that the definitive date, in

7 inverted brackets, but that the date be communicated to you.

8 Insofar as the organisation of your work is concerned, the

9 planning of witnesses and all that, I believe it is absolutely fundamental

10 that you perceive of the 10th of September as the date of the beginning of

11 the trial. Having said that, the Prosecutor, evidently, the sooner you

12 can communicate the list of witnesses, at least the group, and the sooner

13 you finalise the list of witnesses, with that date in mind, the better it

14 will be for the Defence and their preparation. I apologise that I cannot

15 be more precise. If anyone -- if I receive any other information, rest

16 assured that I will communicate it to you.

17 Witness M, we apologise to you. There are always matters to deal

18 with in this Tribunal. It is not always done at the most opportune

19 moments. But thank you very much.

20 I wish to thank the technical booth, and especially the court

21 reporters, the court reporters and reporteresses, for resolving technical

22 problems. I also wish to thank the interpreters. We shall be back here

23 tomorrow morning at 9.15.

24 Thank you very much, Witness, and please stay in your seat until

25 the usher helps you to leave the courtroom.

Page 1709

1 Thank you. Until tomorrow. The session is adjourned.

2 --- Whereupon the Depositions Hearing adjourned at

3 12.45 p.m., to be reconvened on Friday, the 3rd day

4 of August, 2001, at 9.15 a.m.

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