Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1889

1 Tuesday, 11 September 2001

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.30 a.m.

5 JUDGE LIU: Call the case, please, Madam Registrar.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. This is the case number,

7 IT-98-34-T, the Prosecutor versus Naletilic and Martinovic.

8 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Scott, do you have anything to inform this Trial

9 Chamber this morning?

10 MR. SCOTT: Yes, Your Honour, thank you.

11 At your request, Mr. President, we'd looked at several matters

12 last evening. You asked me yesterday first our position on the two

13 outstanding Defence motions. One is the motion that's styled having

14 something to do with Rule 92 bis, filed on the 2nd of August, 2001. Your

15 Honours, on this one there's apparently misunderstanding by the Defence.

16 These statements were never and have not been offered into evidence. They

17 were simply provided to the Defence as a matter of disclosure. So there's

18 nothing to be the subject of objection. They were never offered into

19 evidence, they were simply provided to Defence counsel during the

20 depositions as a matter of disclosure. So there is nothing further, in

21 our view, to be said about that at this time.

22 The second motion, which was filed on the 31st of August, 2001,

23 has to do with what perhaps might be called a site visit, for the Chamber

24 to visit one or more of the sites in Herzegovina related to this case.

25 The Prosecution's position on that, Your Honours, is we do not oppose it

Page 1890

1 in principle. As the President may know, such visits have been proposed

2 in other cases in the past, and to this Prosecution team's knowledge, it's

3 never been done, primarily, or at least largely, for security reasons.

4 But in principle, we would not oppose it, if the Chamber might find it

5 helpful. Granted, if this were to be pursued, it would require a great

6 deal of planning and coordination as to how such a visit could be done in

7 a way that was correct from an evidentiary perspective, it was correct in

8 terms of coordination, that it was fair to all parties, and of course,

9 again, for the safety of the Judges. So it would require, in our view, an

10 extensive effort, which is not necessarily bad, but nonetheless. But we

11 would not oppose it. We do not oppose it in principle.

12 Your Honour, turning to the Court's questions as to the

13 clarification of the counts in the indictment, again we have reviewed that

14 matter.

15 Concerning Counts 9 and 10, we did state and it is stated at

16 footnote 11 on page 16 of the Prosecution's trial brief, which reads:

17 "The indictment does not charge Martinovic with torture as charged in

18 Counts 9 and 10." We do confirm that again. Those charges, Counts 9 and

19 10, are only against the accused Naletilic.

20 Concerning Counts 19 to 22 -- and I'll try to be better about

21 interpretation today, Your Honour. I'm listening to see if -- okay, I

22 think they are caught up with me. As to Counts 19 to 22, again footnotes

23 12, 13 and 14 on pages 18 and 19 of the Prosecution's trial brief again

24 read to the effect, the three footnotes taken together, that Martinovic is

25 not charged in Counts 19, 20 and 22. Now, as I indicated to Your Honours

Page 1891

1 yesterday - and I agree again this morning - the drafting is not as artful

2 as it could have been. But when you read the preceding paragraphs of the

3 allegations in that section, you will see, when you read the allegation,

4 the factual allegations, that as to the paragraphs related to Sovici,

5 Doljani and Rastani, those paragraphs only name Naletilic. However, again

6 as we pointed out in the Opening Statement yesterday, Tuta and Martinovic

7 together are charged in Count 21.

8 Given the situation, Mr. President, the Prosecution's view is that

9 it would not be -- it is not necessary -- it wouldn't be appropriate to

10 withdraw counts. We're not actually withdrawing any counts, but we're

11 happy to make that clarification as to who is charged in which particular

12 count. There are no counts to withdraw, when properly understood, and

13 again I understand the reasons for the confusion. But the charges stand

14 as against the ones naming Martinovic and the ones naming Tuta and, to

15 that extent, they are not withdrawn.

16 Thank you, Mr. President.

17 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much about the explanations on this

18 matter. But I am still not very clear, you know. How does this count

19 stand if you do not charge a person? We should have a very clear picture,

20 you know, on this matter.

21 So another question is: What are you going to do with the

22 indictment? Are you going to write a new indictment, amended indictment,

23 or you are going to file a written motion, you know, on this particular

24 matter?

25 MR. SCOTT: Well, Your Honour, just as I sat down, I was just

Page 1892

1 beginning to think something along the same lines. Perhaps the best way

2 to clarify the situation - and I view it this is merely a matter of

3 clarification, I did not view it as a substantive change in the

4 indictment, frankly - but as a matter of clarification, we would be happy,

5 I think -- we could file an amended indictment, which the language could

6 be clear, and that would then make the record clear on that point and

7 resolve this matter to the Chamber's satisfaction. I think we would be

8 happy to do that.

9 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

10 MR. SCOTT: Thank you.

11 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Seric, do you have anything to say concerning

12 with this issue?

13 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. What I

14 wish to say is that which Mr. Martinovic's Defence has been pointing out

15 from the very beginning; that the indictment was not clear enough. So

16 thank you very much. We fully accept your position regarding the

17 clarifications needed to be made in the indictment.

18 Thank you.

19 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Krsnik, do you want to say something at this

20 stage?

21 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. Yes, I

22 did want to say something. I wanted to touch upon and respond to what my

23 learned friend Scott said, that is, his comments regarding your visit to

24 the site. The Defence believes it to be of utmost importance because,

25 without seeing the area, without going to the ground, Your Honours, it

Page 1893

1 would be much more difficult for us. We can talk to our heart's content,

2 listen to the investigators and hear all sorts of hearsay. We can look at

3 all the maps and all the photographs and whatnot, but it is -- can never

4 be the same as when you see something with your own eyes.

5 I should say that in Bosnia, there are thousands of international

6 representatives, and they are all very safe. So I do not think that there

7 should be any concern about your safety. For ten years, all these

8 international representatives have lived there. And through all the war

9 years, nothing ever happened to them. And especially Bosnia-Herzegovina

10 today, where we have the mightiest force in the world, which is called the

11 SFOR. And in Mostar and all the other towns, there is international

12 representatives, from higher representative, Mr. Petrisch, high

13 representative of the United Nations, Mr. Klein. I had the privilege of

14 living there for a year because I had moved there as a serious lawyer to

15 be on the ground. And then to be in Zagreb, and then use photographs to

16 see what is going on there. And of course, I have a much fuller picture

17 of what happened in Bosnia-Herzegovina than my learned friend Scott, if

18 you will allow me to say to him. And I think it is high time for a

19 Chamber to go to the ground and at long last acquire a full picture about

20 the events that took place there.

21 I will, of course, if I have enough time, I will have to make

22 really, for maps -- programmes, we shall have to have the change of our

23 costs and also on this report. So we shall have more work. But I think

24 somebody must see that; and if there is anyone who should see it, then it

25 is the Chamber which should go there, regardless of the cost, regardless

Page 1894

1 of everything else.

2 Thank you.

3 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Thank you very much. This Trial Chamber,

4 we will seek the advice of the security department of this Tribunal.

5 Thank you.

6 So, Mr. Stringer, will you please call your witness.

7 MR. STRINGER: Yes. Good morning, Mr. President and Your

8 Honours. We call Jan Van Hecke to continue his testimony this morning.

9 Mr. President, I saw the usher move in the opposite direction from

10 where I know the witness is located, which is, I believe, this direction.

11 Maybe we should wait just a moment to see whether he is bringing

12 Mr. Van Hecke or whether he is on a different mission. I'm not sure.

13 JUDGE LIU: Sometimes I, myself, got lost in this building.

14 MR. STRINGER: With your permission, Mr. President, perhaps we

15 could send someone from either -- perhaps Ms. Fleming or someone.

16 MR. SCOTT: With the Court's permission.

17 JUDGE LIU: Okay.

18 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, I think the witness is actually on

19 his way.

20 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, while we have just got this quick

21 moment, I wanted to propose one thing, if it would expedite the

22 proceedings this morning. We intend to tender a number of documents into

23 evidence through this witness. The documents, I believe, are in binders

24 which are located by your chairs. We are not going to examine all of

25 those documents with the witness, but we are going to examine a number of

Page 1895

1 them. And it might be more efficient and move things along, I propose, to

2 have our case manager, Ms. Fleming, just sit next to the ELMO. She has an

3 extra copy of the particular documents, and she could simply put them on

4 the ELMO as we go through them, rather than asking the usher to move back

5 and forth. It might save us a little bit of time, if it's okay with the

6 Trial Chamber.

7 [The witness entered court]

8 JUDGE LIU: It's permitted.

9 MR. STRINGER: Thank you, Mr. President.


11 Examined by Mr. Stringer: [Continued]

12 Q. Mr. Van Hecke, good morning.

13 A. Hello.

14 Q. Yesterday, when we left off, we were examining a series of

15 photographs of places in the city of Mostar, particularly in the area of

16 the confrontation line. Do you recall that testimony?

17 A. Yes, I do.

18 MR. STRINGER: Now, I'm going to ask if the witness could be

19 given again Binder Number 1, which is the binder containing the maps and

20 the photographs that he was looking at yesterday.

21 A. Thank you.

22 Q. Now, before we go to the next place to talk about, I want to ask

23 you about it in general terms first. Are you familiar with those parts of

24 the amended indictment which refer to a place called the Heliodrom?

25 A. Yes, I am.

Page 1896

1 Q. And have you been to this place that's called the Heliodrom?

2 A. I passed by it on the outside. I haven't been into the compound.

3 Q. Do you know what the Heliodrom complex is being used for

4 currently?

5 A. Currently, it's military barracks.

6 Q. And which military organization is billeted there?

7 A. It's the Federation Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

8 Q. Do you happen to know, from the investigation, what the Heliodrom

9 complex was used for? What was its purpose before the conflict in this

10 case?

11 A. It was a JNA, so former Yugoslav army, military compound.

12 MR. STRINGER: Just one moment. Excuse me, Mr. President.

13 Q. Now, are you aware of whether during the course of the

14 investigation in this case, members of your investigations team obtained,

15 with the assistance of the stablisation force, SFOR, video images of the

16 Heliodrom complex?

17 A. Yes, they did.

18 Q. Before we go to the video, if you could turn to Exhibit Number 2,

19 which is a map that we went back to several times yesterday. If you could

20 just place the map on the ELMO and indicate for all of us the location of

21 the Heliodrom complex.

22 Is it turned on?

23 A. I think maybe it has to be plugged in.

24 Q. We will pass by --

25 JUDGE LIU: Wait. We saw nothing on the screen.

Page 1897

1 MR. STRINGER: I think that there's a problem with the ELMO,

2 Mr. President. What I could propose is to skip this for the moment. We

3 could go to the video.

4 THE WITNESS: It's on.

5 MR. STRINGER: Oh, okay.

6 A. So again you see the city of Mostar on the left, and you see a

7 place marked as Rodoc. That's where the Heliodrom is.

8 Q. Just to give us a general idea of the distances involved here, how

9 long would it take, generally, to drive by automobile, taking the most

10 direct route between the Heliodrom and the city of Mostar?

11 A. More or less, five minutes, I would say.

12 MR. STRINGER: Now, Mr. President, we do have a videotape at this

13 time, which is Exhibit 19, which is the Heliodrom complex.

14 [Videotape played]


16 Q. So this is an aerial view taken from the helicopter of the

17 Heliodrom compound?

18 A. Just a general overview of the whole compound.

19 Q. So when we're talking about the Heliodrom, we're talking about a

20 place that has lots of different buildings; it's not just one structure?

21 A. Oh, that's correct, so what you see here -- all you see here is

22 the Heliodrom.

23 Q. Okay, thank you. Now, Mr. Van Hecke, turning to the photographs,

24 which are Exhibit 20, if you could just look through those, tell us

25 whether those appear to be photographs taken from the videotape, in fact,

Page 1898

1 which we've just seen.

2 A. Yes, these are views of the Heliodrom.

3 Q. Thank you. I'm not going to ask you to refer to any specific

4 photographs of the Heliodrom.

5 The next location that I'd like to take you to is the town or the

6 city now called Listica, formerly known as Siroki Brijeg. And again if

7 you could indicate on the ELMO the location of Siroki Brijeg.

8 A. I think it's actually Siroki Brijeg now, sir.

9 Q. I'm sorry.

10 A. No problem. So you again have the city of Mostar. West of it you

11 see a place called -- first of all, a municipality called Siroki Brijeg,

12 which, about in the middle of it, the town of Siroki Brijeg.

13 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, just for the Trial Chamber's

14 information, Siroki Brijeg is referred to in a number of places in the

15 indictment. Paragraph 12 indicates, in the Background section, that this

16 is the birthplace of the accused Mladen Naletilic. Paragraph 14 refers to

17 this place in respect of the allegations on the superior authority of the

18 accused Naletilic. Paragraph 31, which is part of Count 1, the

19 persecution count, refers to Siroki Brijeg as the headquarters or a base

20 of the Convicts' Battalion and also the location of what's called "the

21 MUP" or the police station, if you will, in Siroki Brijeg, a place where

22 prisoners were held. Paragraph 47 and 50 relate to torture and beatings

23 of prisoners which occurred in locations in Siroki Brijeg.

24 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.


Page 1899

1 Q. Now, Mr. Van Hecke, we have a videotape which is Exhibit 28, which

2 I'm going to ask the technical people to play now. And if you could

3 perhaps indicate any areas which are of relevance to the indictment while

4 the videotape is playing.

5 [Videotape played]

6 A. So we have an overview of the tobacco station. The whole compound

7 we see on the video, going down on the video, so all the different

8 buildings. It's a compound of several buildings.

9 MR. STRINGER: Perhaps if they could rewind it just for a couple

10 of frames, we could go back to that place from the front. Keep

11 rewinding. Okay, can they stop it there? We'll hold.

12 Q. Okay. So when you talk about the tobacco station or the tobacco

13 factory, could you describe a little more clearly what you're talking

14 about?

15 A. I'm talking about a big compound in the city of -- in the centre

16 of Siroki Brijeg, composed of several buildings. So it's bordered by the

17 road you see on the right-hand side. So almost all the buildings you see

18 at your left-hand side of the screen, starting from the right, are

19 buildings, part of the tobacco station.

20 Q. All right. While we're on the tobacco station, let me ask you a

21 couple of questions. Have you ever -- first of all, have you ever been to

22 this place that you're referring to as the tobacco station?

23 A. Yes, I've been to the place.

24 Q. And can you tell us when you went there and for what purpose?

25 A. I went to the tobacco station in September of 1998 for a search

Page 1900

1 and seizure procedure after a search warrant from Judges from this

2 Tribunal.

3 Q. So you participated in a search and seizure of buildings on this

4 location?

5 A. I participated in a search and seizure procedure to seize

6 documents from these buildings.

7 Q. Were documents, in fact, seized from buildings in this tobacco

8 station?

9 A. Yes, documents were seized from buildings.

10 Q. And do you know whether any of those will be tendered into

11 evidence in this case?

12 A. Yes, there will be.

13 MR. STRINGER: Thank you. All right. We could, I think, continue

14 with the videotape now.

15 [Videotape played]

16 MR. STRINGER: Thank you.

17 Q. Now, Mr. Van Hecke, Exhibit Number 26, going back to 26, is a

18 series of photographs of -- well, could you tell us, please, if you know,

19 what is Exhibit 26? And then I'll refer you to specific photographs.

20 A. Exhibit 26 is a number of photographs taken from locations in

21 Siroki Brijeg.

22 MR. STRINGER: Now, I'm going to ask our case manager if we could

23 put Exhibit 26.3 on the ELMO.

24 Q. If you could indicate what this place is and how it's relevant, in

25 terms of the allegations in the indictment.

Page 1901

1 A. The building you see here next to the tall building in the centre

2 of Siroki Brijeg is the MUP, or police station, of Siroki Brijeg. It's

3 relevant in the indictment or in the investigation. It's alleged to be

4 one of the bases of the Convicts' Battalion, and prisoners allegedly were

5 held in the basement of this building --

6 Q. Okay. And for the record, Mr. Van Hecke, you're referring to a

7 building that's to the right of a larger building which has a red and

8 white checkerboard pattern on it?

9 A. That's correct, we have a larger building with red and white

10 checkerboard. And to the right of the photograph, we have a building with

11 a reddish roof, and that's the police station.

12 Q. Now Exhibit 26.9. And could you just briefly tell us what's shown

13 in 26.9?

14 A. Yes. Again in the centre of the photo, you see this whole

15 compound here that I circle now, the different buildings. It's the

16 tobacco station at Siroki Brijeg.

17 Q. 26.10?

18 A. That's the municipal swimming pool of Siroki Brijeg, and it's also

19 linked in the indictment as where people had to -- prisoners had to

20 perform forced labour.

21 Q. And then, finally, 26.11?

22 A. This building is the Hotel Park in Siroki Brijeg, where a lot of

23 members or certain members of the unit of the Convicts' Battalion were --

24 had their accommodation, including foreign mercenaries.

25 Q. All right. The next location. I'm going to ask you, first of

Page 1902

1 all, if you're familiar with any allegations in the indictment about

2 prisoners who performed labour at the personal residence of the accused

3 Naletilic.

4 A. Yes, I am.

5 Q. And during the investigation or in preparation for trial, did

6 members of the investigation team obtain some images of what's believed to

7 be this location?

8 A. Yes, a member of my team did.

9 MR. STRINGER: Now, Mr. President, with your permission, I would

10 ask the technical booth play Exhibit Number 31, which is a videotape.

11 And, Your Honour, this refers to paragraphs 31 and 44 of the indictment.

12 [Videotape played]

13 THE WITNESS: So this is the place believed to be -- during the

14 time of the indictment, to be the villa of Mr. Naletilic on Cigansko Brdo,

15 next to the town of Siroki Brijeg. You see the swimming pool of the

16 villa. On the right, you see the road going into the villa, into the gate

17 of the garden or the park around the house.

18 Q. Now again just for the record, can you give us an idea of when

19 this videotape was obtained?

20 A. This videotape was obtained in September of 2000. At the far left

21 on the top, you see the gate of the garden or park.

22 Q. If I could direct you now back to the binder, to Exhibit Number

23 25. If you could tell us, what is Exhibit Number 25?

24 A. Exhibit 25 are photos, or stills, of the same villa.

25 Q. Thank you. Now, the next location that I want to direct your

Page 1903

1 attention to, the last which we're going to cover today, is a place called

2 Rastani.

3 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, Rastani is alleged in the indictment

4 in paragraph 35, in connection with crimes associated with forced labour.

5 Also, paragraph 43 refers to the use of human shields in Rastani and, I'm

6 sorry, use of prisoners to enter positions and to search for enemy

7 positions. Finally, paragraph 58 refers, in Counts 19 and 20, to

8 destruction and devastation not justified by military necessity in the

9 village of Rastani.

10 Q. Now, Mr. Van Hecke, are you familiar with the indictment and

11 allegations concerning events there on the 23rd of September, 1993?

12 A. Yes, I am.

13 Q. And again coming back, if you will, to Exhibit Number 2, which is

14 the map, I've got a copy here to hand to you.

15 A. My copy is gone, sir.

16 Q. That's all right.

17 A. So again as the central point, we take again the city of Mostar.

18 And just north, or above, if you want, on the map, you see the village of

19 Rastani situated on the west bank, or the right bank, of the River

20 Neretva.

21 Q. And again just in terms of distance, if you could give us a rough

22 idea of how long it would take one to drive there from the centre of

23 Mostar, assuming not a lot of traffic.

24 A. Also the same. I would say five minutes or a bit more than five

25 minutes to drive to Rastani.

Page 1904

1 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, we have a videotape of Rastani,

2 Exhibit Number 35, which I would ask the technical booth to play at this

3 time.

4 [Videotape played]

5 THE WITNESS: So you see the village of Rastani spread out and the

6 villages in between, and the Neretva you just saw disappearing from the

7 bottom of the video to the hills on the other side. So this shot was

8 taken from the south to the north with the Neretva on the right and the

9 hills on the left, or the Neretva on the east and the hills on the west.

10 This is a factory in Rastani called Silos. See a power plant on

11 the screen. And then you see the houses of Rastani.

12 And again, on the top, you just saw a bit of the Neretva River.

13 So it is spread out from just north of Mostar going further up north to

14 the last dam before -- on the Neretva River before you reach Mostar.

15 Here you see on the left the last dam on the Neretva before you

16 reach Mostar.

17 Q. Thank you, Mr. Van Hecke.

18 Now, back to the binder, I refer to you Exhibit 34, a series of

19 photographs. Can you tell us what those are.

20 A. These are photos of different views from the village of Rastani.

21 Q. Thank you.

22 Now, Mr. Van Hecke, I want to turn away from photographs and

23 videotapes now to documents, and I want to first ask you a couple of more

24 general questions.

25 Can you tell us in general terms whether the Office of the

Page 1905

1 Prosecutor was able to obtain documents of relevance to this case during

2 the course of its investigation and in preparation for the trial?

3 A. Yes, we did obtain documents in the course of the investigation.

4 Q. And could you tell us generally what sources the documents came

5 from? I would ask you, to caution you, though; in terms of some states, I

6 think we're going to be asking to go into private session before we

7 identify all the states by name which have provided documents. But

8 anyway, generally, could you tell us the sources of the documentation in

9 this case.

10 A. Well, the big categories are documents we obtained from witnesses,

11 witnesses who give us documents during the moment that they give

12 statements to the investigator of the Office of the Prosecutor. A second

13 way of obtaining documents is through requests, official requests, from

14 the Office of the Prosecutor to states, after which they reply. The same

15 as to the states, a request that we send to international organisations

16 who are active in the country and also give us documents. And a fourth

17 category, I would say, is documents we obtained through search and seizure

18 procedures, like I mentioned before.

19 JUDGE LIU: I saw Mr. Krsnik is standing.

20 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Of course, I

21 have an objection because, in answer to a question from my learned friend

22 Mr. Stringer, in answer to a question from Mr. Stringer, a question

23 addressed to his own investigator as to whether he can confirm that the

24 Prosecution has collected all the documents, I think that's a bit too

25 much. We have already filed a motion objecting to this witness, and we

Page 1906

1 have prior cases in this Tribunal, in the Simic case, the investigator was

2 not allowed to testify. And to this day, I was not aware of what this

3 witness to be testifying about, nor has the Defence received any statement

4 from this witness. And I still don't know how I'm going to cross-examine

5 this witness. But I'll find a way around it.

6 We have been informed that this witness will just assist the Court

7 and provide clarification with the help of pictures and videos and so on.

8 However, this witness is testifying, not only from personal knowledge, but

9 from hearsay evidence. And now he is asked to confirm, as an investigator

10 of the Prosecution, that the Prosecution has collected all the documents.

11 So I really do object, and I think this is going a bit too far.

12 Thank you.

13 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Seric.

14 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. Your

15 Honour, I would like to object to the latter part of the question by

16 Mr. Stringer, which is, in a sense, a leading question, indicating the way

17 in which the witness will testify in the future and notifying us of a

18 closed session to which the Defence will object, I wish to state right at

19 the outset.

20 JUDGE LIU: Well, I think the main purpose of this witness is to

21 assist the Court to the particular places where the crime is allegedly

22 committed. And so far, up to now, I didn't see any, you know, questions

23 concerning this witness. As for the documents, I'm not sure whether, you

24 know, this investigator has collected all the documents there. Maybe

25 Mr. Stringer could clear it up.

Page 1907

1 MR. STRINGER: Thank you, Mr. President. I could ask additional

2 questions of the witness, if that would assist, and I will do that.

3 Q. Mr. Van Hecke, again, just to clarify, did the investigation team

4 in this case attempt to identify and obtain documents during the course of

5 the investigation?

6 A. Yes, we did.

7 Q. Do you have personal knowledge of the events and the means which

8 the Prosecutor employed to obtain the documents in this case?

9 A. Yes, I do.

10 Q. Now, you were referred, first of all, to a search and seizure

11 which occurred in September of 1998?

12 A. Yes, that's right.

13 Q. What was your role in that search and seizure?

14 A. Well, there was a -- there were search warrants from a Judge in

15 this Tribunal to do searches in three locations; Vitez, Mostar, and Siroki

16 Brijeg to obtain documents and archives of the HVO. The whole operation

17 was led by a commander of the OTP, so a person a level higher than the

18 team leader who was supervising different teams. And I was, myself,

19 involved in the search and seizure, in carrying out a search warrant in

20 Siroki Brijeg as part of a bigger operation, let's say.

21 Q. And have you -- I asked you previously, will documents obtained

22 during that search and seizure be tendered into evidence in this case?

23 A. Yes, they are.

24 Q. Have you reviewed those documents?

25 A. I did review those documents.

Page 1908

1 Q. Can you tell us whether you are -- can confirm or not whether

2 these documents, in fact, came from the search and seizure which you have

3 participated in?

4 A. Yes, I can confirm.

5 Q. Now, you also mentioned that documents have been obtained from

6 states. Again, without mentioning the names of any of the states

7 involved, can you please tell us how the Prosecutor goes about obtaining

8 documents generally from states.

9 A. Well, we sent a request -- the Office of the Prosecutor sent a

10 request to a state, requesting specific documents or specific things that

11 we need or even within a relevant period that we allege that the state can

12 have in their archives. We sent this letter to the state. They answer us

13 back with yes or no. We have the documents. If it's, for instance, one

14 specific document can be sent directly to the Tribunal by the state. If

15 it's a bigger lump of documents or eventually an archive, it happens that

16 investigators of the OTP go to the states to screen the documents and to

17 bring them back to The Hague and bring them into evidence.

18 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Krsnik.

19 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. So we've

20 reached a crucial point now of all our objections. The witness was here

21 to help the Court with locations, buildings, and so on. But with this

22 last answer, he has confirmed the position of the Defence. This witness

23 is asked to testify about something that was seized by force, by military

24 force. I happen to have been there at the time in Siroki Brijeg, and I

25 watched the whole operation. It so happened that I was there.

Page 1909

1 And now this witness has to confirm that that is authentic. So

2 these two are two different roles played by this investigator of the

3 Prosecution. He's an investigator of the Prosecution. So these are two

4 different things, and that is what the Defence is objecting to. Thank

5 you.

6 JUDGE LIU: Judge Clark.

7 JUDGE CLARK: Mr. Krsnik, I hope I'm pronouncing your name

8 correctly. I think I know that you are going to object to the

9 authenticity or to the acceptability of these documents. But my

10 understanding is that this witness at the moment is responding to a

11 question posed to him only as to the sources of the documents which are

12 going to be called by the Prosecution. So in my belief, it's a little bit

13 premature for you. You are marking the card for us. We know where you

14 are coming from. We know you are going to take an objection, but it's not

15 this witness. It might be a later witness when you are dealing with the

16 validity of the search and seizure.

17 So I think that we could probably safely continue. This witness

18 is only telling us the source of the documents, nothing to do with the

19 validity or the authenticity.

20 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I fully agree with you, and that is

21 my opinion, too, but that was not my objection. My objection was against

22 the tactics applied by the Prosecution.

23 Your Honour, the Defence has not received any statement from this

24 witness to be able to prepare, so we didn't know what he was going to

25 testify about. That is number one. As we didn't know that, we were

Page 1910

1 informed orally that he would testify along the lines that we have

2 discussed, that is, to provide an idea to the Court of the locations, the

3 buildings, and so on. And that is quite acceptable.

4 But you see where the Prosecution is heading, and that is what I

5 am objecting to. This witness is being used to confirm something that it

6 is very difficult to confirm. I was just -- wanted to caution this Court

7 regarding the tactics of the Prosecution. I think it is impermissible for

8 their investigator as a witness to confirm the authenticity of something

9 that is in their possessions, shall we put it that way. That is all.

10 Nothing more.

11 JUDGE CLARK: I don't believe that he is trying to prove the

12 authenticity of the document; that it's a more limited role that he is

13 playing. And a lawyer of your experience and renown will have no

14 difficulty of cross-examining this witness who is only just laying the

15 scene; he is just assisting us in becoming familiar with the maps, the

16 pictures, and how they found the documents. You'll have an opportunity,

17 I'm sure, later to attack the credibility, if you feel it's necessary.

18 Thank you.

19 JUDGE LIU: Please continue.

20 MR. STRINGER: Thank you, Mr. President.

21 May I say, for the record, that the witness summaries, the list of

22 witnesses with the summaries of witness testimony which was first filed by

23 the Prosecutor in this case in October of 2000, some 11 months ago, as

24 well as the amended Rule 65 witness summaries which was filed by the

25 Prosecutor, I believe, within the last eight weeks or so, both of those

Page 1911

1 indicate that this witness would testify not only about photographs and

2 videotapes, but also in order to refer to documents obtained during the

3 course of the investigation.

4 So may I say the Defence has been well aware in two filings, going

5 back nearly a year, that we intended to use this witness for this

6 purpose.

7 Q. Now, Mr. Van Hecke, we now have covered, I believe, documents

8 obtained from states, documents obtained during the search and seizure

9 operation. You mentioned another category, documents obtained from

10 international organisations. And on this, let me just ask you: We can

11 speak about one called the European Community Monitoring Mission, the

12 ECMM.

13 Again, if you can tell us in general terms whether documents were

14 provided by the ECMM, how the investigations team went about obtaining

15 those for this case.

16 A. Yes, there were documents obtained from ECMM. The biggest lump of

17 documents were already in possession of the Tribunal before the

18 investigation even started, by requesting the whole archive of the ECMM

19 that was taken over -- not taken over -- that the ICTY got most of the

20 archive of the ECMM even before the investigation started.

21 Q. So the Office of the Prosecutor received in bulk, if you will,

22 many records from the ECMM before this investigation started?

23 A. Yes, that's correct.

24 Q. Now, in terms of all the documents that we're going to talk about

25 today, have you had an opportunity to review those and to assure yourself

Page 1912

1 that they actually do come from the sources which you previously

2 indicated?

3 A. Yes, I did.

4 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, I propose to go into the first set

5 of documents which were provided to the Prosecutor by a state. For this,

6 however, I would ask to go into private session, because the documents are

7 of a sensitive nature.

8 JUDGE LIU: Okay. We are going into private session.

9 [Private session]

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

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Page 1920

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 [Open Session]

5 JUDGE LIU: You are informed that we are in the open session.

6 After the deliberations, the Trial Chamber has the following views

7 with regard to the tendering and admission of evidence: First, if private

8 session is requested on the grounds of alleged confidentiality of the

9 document, the parties who are needing the document has to explain to the

10 Chamber why the document concerned has to be regarded as confidential.

11 If private session is requested on behalf of the security

12 interests of the third party who provided the document, the Trial Chamber

13 wishes the parties to obtain some written requests as to the

14 confidentiality of the material provided from this third party. Such a

15 letter or note should, in general, accompany the tendering of the

16 documents. The Trial Chamber, however, reserves its right to make a

17 positive finding as to the confidentiality of the document and allow for

18 private session in the absence of such written request of the third party,

19 if the interests of justice so require.

20 Thirdly, in this regard, the Trial Chamber will consider in

21 particular the need of cooperation of the states and the international

22 organisations with the Tribunal as to the provision of the evidence, not

23 only in this case, but also in regard to the future cooperation of this

24 Tribunal.

25 Fourthly, as to the testimony of Mr. Van Hecke, the Trial Chamber

Page 1921

1 wishes to point out to the Prosecution that it will accept the tendering

2 of the documents in cluster or set, as announced by Mr. Stringer. The

3 Trial Chamber, however, expects the witness to concentrate in his

4 testimony to provide the Trial Chamber with the following information on

5 the sources of the documents tendered: From whom and in which manner was

6 the document obtained? When was document obtained? Where was the

7 documents obtained from? How was the documents proceed [sic] after being

8 received by the Prosecution?

9 In this particular case, the Trial Chamber holds that the

10 objection from the Defence against the private session is overruled.

11 Thank you.

12 And there's another matter I would like to mention at the

13 beginning of this sitting. That is this morning, we have received Defence

14 motion to allow the investigator to follow the proceedings in accordance

15 with the Rule 90. Only up to now, we know that the previous co-counsel,

16 Mrs. Lasan, has become an investigator of this case. We believe that her

17 sitting in the proceedings of the investigators should be at the order of

18 this Trial Chamber. So before this Trial Chamber makes any decisions,

19 Mrs. Lasan is not allowed to sit in the proceedings.

20 So this Trial Chamber asks the withdrawal of Mrs. Lasan from these

21 proceedings at this moment, pending further decisions of this Trial

22 Chamber. Thank you.

23 So, would you please continue, Mr. Stringer.

24 Sorry, yes. Mr. Krsnik, sorry.

25 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Sorry, I should be very brief,

Page 1922

1 because I do not really want to pester anyone. I'm merely trying to set

2 certain things right.

3 Mr. President, with all due respect for your decisions, will you

4 please order the Prosecution to have all the documents translated into a

5 language which my clients understand so that I could discuss every

6 document with him, which is in conformity with Statute. Half of these

7 documents have been not been translated into a language that my client

8 understands. As I said already yesterday, this is a statutory obligation

9 of the Tribunal.

10 Thank you very much. That is all.

11 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Scott, what are you going to say on this new

12 motion?

13 MR. SCOTT: This is the day for motions, Your Honour. It would

14 happen sooner or later.

15 May it please the Court, I'm afraid I have to disagree again with

16 my learned friend. The Tribunal Rules do not require that documentary

17 evidence be translated into a language understood by the accused. The

18 Rules require -- for whatever reason, the Rules require that witness

19 statements, such as interview statements, be translated into the

20 Serbo-Croatian language. The Tribunal's Rules and Practices do not

21 require that documents, for instance, that were prepared in the English

22 language be translated into B/C/S, and that is the practice. That has

23 been the practice in other cases.

24 There are multitudes of documents, again, for instance, in the

25 Blaskic and Kordic cases that were only entered in English; they were

Page 1923

1 never translated into Serbo-Croatian. One of the requirements, of course,

2 for counsel to appear here -- and I say this humbly because I know I have

3 a tremendous advantage of having English as my native language, at least

4 some would say English; perhaps Judge Clark would disagree -- but I

5 realize fully that gives to some of us a tremendous advantage. I accept

6 that for what it is.

7 But it is the Tribunal practice that these documents simply do not

8 require translation. I understand what Mr. Krsnik is saying. I

9 understand that may present him certain difficulties. But the Tribunal

10 jurisprudence is the jurisprudence, and we have not prepared

11 Serbo-Croatian translation in many of the non-original Serbo-Croatian

12 documents.

13 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik.

14 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

15 Now, my question to my learned friend Scott is, why is it, then,

16 that the documents that were tendered during the depositions, and they

17 were in Croatian, why did we have to translate them into English?

18 MR. SCOTT: Because that's the Rule, Your Honour. Because they

19 have to be translated into one of the official languages of the Tribunal,

20 English or French or both.

21 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Well, I have before me Article 21,

22 which says that everything needs to be translated into the language of the

23 accused. How can I discuss a document which is in the language that my

24 client does not understand?

25 JUDGE LIU: What is that strange sound?

Page 1924

1 MR. SCOTT: Sorry, Your Honour, I didn't know you were waiting for

2 me. My apologies.

3 Your Honour, I'm sorry, my apologies to counsel. I don't see that

4 part in Article 21 where it talks about having the translation of

5 documents. It does provide that he will be provided at various stages, of

6 course, with interpretation. It talks about interpretation in a couple of

7 places. For instance, obviously at the time of the initial appearance and

8 advisement, he has to, of course, understand the charges against him in a

9 language that he understands. But perhaps Mr. Krsnik can point me to the

10 language of Article 21 that says that documents have to be translated into

11 Serbo-Croatian.

12 [Trial Chamber confers]

13 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Scott. What do you say about the Article 21,

14 paragraph 4?

15 MR. SCOTT: I'm sorry, paragraph 4?

16 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

17 MR. SCOTT: I'm sorry, Your Honours. I don't see anything in

18 paragraph 4 about translation of documents.

19 JUDGE LIU: It says that: "In the determination of any charge

20 against the accused pursuant to the present Statute, the accused shall be

21 entitled to the following minimum guarantees, in full equality."

22 MR. SCOTT: Yes, but then it goes on in subparagraphs (a)

23 through (g), and I don't believe any of those (a) through (g) -- it says

24 that "the following guarantees" (a) through (g), and I'm not aware of any

25 of (a) through (g) requiring that documents be translated into

Page 1925

1 Serbo-Croatian.

2 JUDGE CLARK: Would you not consider that as a principle of

3 justice, that every party should be made fully aware of the extent of the

4 case against them? Has this party been allowed enough time to obtain

5 translations? Isn't that something we should address?

6 MR. SCOTT: Absolutely, the Chamber can address that, and I can

7 understand why the Chamber might respond and react that way as a general

8 matter of principle. This may be a situation where our instincts from our

9 home jurisdictions cause us to reach certain conclusions which are

10 completely understandable. But sometimes things here have not been, which

11 doesn't mean they can't change. But the practice has developed in a

12 certain way, and the reality is - and I'm not saying it's right

13 necessarily, Judge Clark - but the reality is that that has not been the

14 practice in Tribunal cases. There has simply not been translation of

15 English documents, or Spanish documents, or German documents into the

16 Serbo-Croatian language, with the exception of witness statements, and

17 that's been --

18 JUDGE CLARK: I'm not saying, Mr. Scott, that it is the job of the

19 Tribunal or, indeed, the Prosecution to provide the Defence with

20 translations of the documents. I think that we should accept that first

21 principle of justice, as enunciated in the Statute, is that a party needs

22 to be able to follow the proceedings in a language that he understands. I

23 don't think there's any dispute about that. It's a fundamental right in

24 the United Nations Charter and the Human Rights Charter. I don't think

25 there can be or should be any dispute.

Page 1926

1 But what I'm wondering is: Has the practice been that documents

2 be served on the Defence in good time for Defence counsel to have an

3 opportunity to discuss the contents and to translate them with their

4 clients?

5 MR. SCOTT: I know of no such practice, Your Honour. And in fact,

6 as we discussed yesterday, you may recall, in fact we would have been

7 within our rights to tender the exhibits as we go, without having to

8 produce them a week ago last Friday, and they would have been shown to the

9 witness on the spot and the Defence counsel would have seen them on the

10 spot. And certainly they wouldn't be translated into Serbo-Croatian on

11 the spot, except interpretation services that the Defence can provide or

12 the lawyer can speak to his client in Serbo-Croatian.

13 But again speaking on practice, as opposed to what perhaps should

14 be the practice or could be the practice, the practice has been, no, they

15 have not been translated at that time or provided in such a way as to

16 allow translation before proceedings go forward.

17 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Meek.

18 MR. MEEK: Yes. May it please the Tribunal - the Trial Chamber,

19 excuse me - my learned colleague begs the question because Article 21,

20 section 4, must be read in toto with all other parts of that Article.

21 First, as has been stated, as a matter of fairness and justice, the

22 accused should be made aware of the nature and cause of the charges

23 against him in a language which he understands.

24 Mr. Scott would tell this Trial Chamber that he only needs --

25 Mr. Naletilic only needs to have the information or the indictment in a

Page 1927

1 language that he understands. We believe that if you look at Article

2 21(4)(a), and (4) specifically says these are minimum guarantees, minimum

3 guarantees, which allows this Trial Chamber, in its discretion, to make

4 such accommodations that it feels is fair, just, and will lead to a fair

5 trial.

6 Further, if the Trial Chamber is of the opinion that Mr. Scott is

7 correct and that Mr. Naletilic should not have any documents prepared in a

8 language which he understands, save and except the indictment, then we

9 would have to ask, under paragraph (f) of (4) under Article 21, that

10 Mr. Naletilic be assigned an interpreter at all times to assist him in

11 translating these documents.

12 And not to belabour the point, I would just like to make this

13 point: These are minimum guarantees; minimum. And to say that the

14 indictment against Mr. Naletilic is the only thing that he should receive

15 in his native tongue because it shows the nature and cause of the charges

16 against him begs the question: Each and every one of these documents

17 which the Prosecutor wishes to introduce show the nature of the charges

18 against him, and it is absolutely necessary that the process given

19 Mr. Naletilic is fair and equitable under all the circumstances. And I

20 believe it's a minimum guarantee that you have.

21 We also - and this goes back, not to belabour --

22 [Trial Chamber confers]

23 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Judge Clark.

24 JUDGE CLARK: It just occurs to me that we haven't actually opened

25 any documents yet, we're just dealing with the sources of the documents.

Page 1928

1 If the documents are opened, surely some of your client's worries will be

2 addressed by the fact that there is a translation of the documents. If

3 they are read out, the documents are translated into Serbo-Croatian. If

4 at any stage you feel that this is insufficient, obviously you can address

5 us.

6 I think Judge Liu wants to furnish strict directions in relation

7 to motions and objections, and I pass over to him.

8 MR. MEEK: Thank you very much.

9 JUDGE LIU: Since both parties have different views concerning the

10 question of the languages, this Trial Chamber will request that both

11 parties submit their motions or opinions concerning the language used in

12 this Tribunal. So that will not stop the present proceedings at this

13 moment. The Trial Chamber will make the proper decision on this

14 particular matter at a later stage.

15 So, Mr. Stringer, would you please continue the proceedings.

16 MR. STRINGER: Thank you. Yes, Mr. President.

17 I can add just one bit of good news, which is that of the five

18 groups of documents which will be tendered through this witness, three of

19 those groups are, in fact -- the original document is in a language which

20 the accused can, in fact, read. So two of the categories are not, but

21 three of them are, and so that's something I think could be kept in mind.

22 Now, at this stage, Mr. President, then, in furtherance of your

23 ruling, I would ask that we move into private session in order to address

24 the first group of documents.

25 JUDGE LIU: So we'll move to private session.

Page 1929

1 [Private session]

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16 (redacted)

17 [Open session]

18 [Videotape played]


20 Q. Mr. Van Hecke, if you recognise the building which is indicated on

21 the left corner?

22 A. That is Sovici school, like we saw before in the photographs. You

23 can see the presence also of the four people with the blue helmet, blue

24 hats.

25 You see in the bottom TV case, TV Konjic.

Page 1937

1 So this is one of the rooms in the school.

2 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, the entire tape lasts about

3 11 minutes, which is probably not -- it's all not necessary for our

4 purposes. So at this point, I would propose to just stop the videotape,

5 unless the Trial Chamber wants to view all of it.

6 JUDGE CLARK: Are you going to tell us when the video was made?


8 Q. Do you know the date on which this video made?

9 A. The video was made on the date of the visit of this delegation to

10 the Sovici school, so it was the 3rd of May, 1993.

11 MR. STRINGER: Now, Mr. President, we would need to move back into

12 private session.

13 JUDGE LIU: We'll move back to the private session.

14 [Private session]

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

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7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 [Open session]

12 JUDGE LIU: Now we are in the open session.

13 MR. STRINGER: Thank you, Mr. President.

14 Q. Mr. Van Hecke, we just came out of private session, and you were

15 just mentioning two places, Dretelj and Gabela, and also there was

16 reference to Stolac, I believe. Can you, on the ELMO, please, indicate on

17 Exhibit 2 the locations of these places, Gabela, Dretelj and Stolac?

18 A. I'll try and do it this way: When you look at the map,

19 Exhibit P2, at the very bottom of the map you see two municipalities. One

20 is the municipalities of Capljina, the bottom left. The other one is the

21 municipality of Stolac, bottom right. When we talk about Dretelj and

22 Gabela, then we have to look into the municipality of Capljina. You see

23 in the municipality of Capljina the town of Capljina marked here. Just

24 north of it, you see the municipality of Dretelj, so also on the west or

25 right bank of the River Neretva, and then just south or down from

Page 1945

1 Capljina, you see the name "Gabela."

2 MR. STRINGER: Thank you. Mr. President, for the remaining

3 exhibits, I propose to put some of them on the ELMO, and with your

4 permission perhaps the way to make it go more quickly would be for our

5 case manager to sit next to the ELMO. She has her own set of the specific

6 documents which we would put on the ELMO, and it may allow things to move

7 a little more quickly, rather than asking the usher to move back and

8 forth.

9 JUDGE LIU: This has been previously decided.

10 MR. STRINGER: Very well. Thank you, Mr. President.

11 Q. Now, Mr. Van Hecke, the next group of documents which I want to

12 ask you about are ECMM reports, and could you first tell us a little more

13 fully, what was the European Community Monitoring Mission and, to the best

14 of your knowledge, what was their mission in Bosnia-Herzegovina at the

15 time of the conflict?

16 A. Well, the European Community Monitoring Mission, like it says, was

17 a monitoring mission established by the European Community, who first

18 deployed in the territory of the former Yugoslavia in '91 when the

19 conflict broke out in Croatia. As soon as there was also a conflict in

20 Bosnia-Herzegovina, they were also deployed there from their headquarters

21 in Zagreb, established regional centres and coordination centres and teams

22 in the field to monitor the situation over there and to report on it, and

23 to meet with key players and local people in the area. They were very

24 recognisable as being ECMM or European Community Monitors. They were

25 completely dressed in white, with white cars with the markings on it of

Page 1946

1 the European Community.

2 Q. I think we're getting the signal that we should try to speak a

3 little more slowly.

4 A. I know. That's one of my handicaps. I'm sorry for that.

5 Q. Do you know, generally, what was the background of many of the

6 people who served as ECMM monitors in the region?

7 A. Many of these people were military or former or retired military

8 people.

9 Q. And again I'll ask you, in terms of how the Prosecutor's office

10 came into possession of the ECMM reports, can you tell us, to the extent

11 that you know, how that came about?

12 A. Well, to the extent that I know, when -- as I stated before, most

13 of these documents, if not all, were already in possession of the Office

14 of the Prosecutor before I started with this investigation. So I know

15 that requests were made through the European -- through the European

16 Community to obtain the reports, first of all, made by the monitors in the

17 field and through the further chain of command within ECMM to the

18 headquarters in Zagreb, and the European Community handed over these

19 documents to the Office of the Prosecutor.

20 Q. And do you know in terms of how the documents have been processed

21 and maintained within the Office of the Prosecutor since the time when

22 they were received?

23 A. Well, again it was the same principle that happens with all the

24 material we get into the Office of the Prosecutor. These documents get a

25 specific number so that you can see always normally on the top of the

Page 1947

1 page. Again the numbers are brought into evidence and stay in the vault.

2 Q. Maybe if I could direct your attention to the first of these, we

3 can talk about that in a little more detail. Exhibit Number 462, I'm

4 going to ask you, first of all, looking at the top of the document,

5 there's some numbers which we call "ERN number," and I would like you to

6 explain what that is and how it relates to the manner in which these

7 documents are obtained and kept by the Prosecutor.

8 A. Well, you see at the top of the page the number "R0162792." This

9 is a unique number that is given by the Evidence Unit of the Office of the

10 Prosecutor after the document comes in and is being processed by the

11 people who bring it in. As I say, it's a unique number. It's a unique

12 number that only this document will have in our evidence.

13 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, I believe that the ECMM documents

14 are in one of these smaller blue binders. I apologise for not mentioning

15 that earlier.

16 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.


18 Q. Now, continuing with this particular one, Number 462, can you tell

19 us the date of this document?

20 A. The date is marked on the top, and it says, "16th of June, 1993."

21 MR. STRINGER: Judge Diarra, I regret to inform you I have at this

22 time only a French translation for one of them, which will be the final

23 document that we will be examining with the witness.

24 Q. Turning to the second page, then, about three-quarters of the way

25 down there is a paragraph which begins with the words "Mr. Stojic..." and

Page 1948

1 I wonder if you could read that paragraph, please.

2 A. "Mr. Stojic stated" -- wait a moment. There are two paragraphs

3 "Mr. Stojic..."

4 Q. I apologise. This is --

5 A. The shorter one or the longer one? I see two.

6 Q. Yeah, the longer one.

7 A. "Mr. Stojic stated that the 504 prisoners in the Heliodrom are

8 till now still not accused but under investigation. Concerning expelled

9 Muslim families he stated that only criminals are involved and that no HVO

10 organised ethnic cleansing takes place in Mostar."

11 Q. Now, if you would turn the page and read the first paragraph on

12 the next page.

13 A. "The ethnic cleansing on the westbank of Muslim families by the

14 HVO is still going on. Strong protest against this action should be taken

15 by the international organisations including ECMM."

16 Q. Now, just so the Trial Chamber knows who it is that's written

17 this, because it's a little bit cryptic, could you explain, if you know,

18 what is "Amigo Jesus" and "The Flying Dutchman"?

19 A. These two names that are mentioned are two ECMM monitors who sign

20 their report by this -- let's call it nicknames. So the first one, "Amigo

21 Jesus," is identified as a Spanish officer of the army, Jesus Amatrion

22 [phoen], and the second, "The Flying Dutchman," is identified as a Dutch

23 officer.

24 Q. Thank you. Exhibit 484. Can you tell us, what is this document

25 and its date, please?

Page 1949

1 A. This document again is a report made by Team II, so M2, Mostar

2 team, sent to the regional centre in Zenica, dated the 29th of June,

3 1993.

4 Q. Directing your attention to the last page of that report,

5 beginning with the fourth line, the words "Mr. Puljic..." Could you read

6 that paragraph.

7 A. "Mr. Puljic seemed to be more friendly than his HVO colleagues,

8 also more 'Honest'" -- and "Honest" between these things -- "than them.

9 We think he has told us the truth when talking about the paramilitary

10 organisations inside or next to the HVO. These organisations are

11 extremists and nationalists, usually full of criminals from all over the

12 world. Their power is their money and their behaviour worse than any

13 other people. We had met some of the 'Capos' of these Mafias (Mr. Tuta,

14 Mr. Andavac, Mr. Yuka, et cetera, et cetera) and we had confirmed their

15 high level in the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna and in the HVO."

16 Q. Thank you. Next is Exhibit 497. Can you tell us, please, again

17 the date, and what is this document.

18 A. This document originates from CC, Coordination Centre, in Mostar,

19 which is a level above the local teams. It's a daily summary of the 5th

20 of July, 1993.

21 Q. Directing your attention to the third page of this document, under

22 item number 4, "Humanitarian Activity," beginning with the words

23 "Unconfirmed information..."

24 A. "Unconfirmed information, but a reliable source (our interpreter

25 from Mostar) said that between the 30th of June and now, about 5.000

Page 1950

1 Muslim men were arrested at the westbank and transported to the barracks

2 near the Heliodrom. At the same time, about 400 Muslim families (without

3 men) were expelled from the west to the eastbank."

4 MR. STRINGER: The next exhibit, Mr. President, is 516.

5 Q. What is this document, Mr. Van Hecke, and what's the date?

6 A. This again is a daily report from M2, Mostar team of ECMM, dated

7 the 10th of July, 1993.

8 Q. And the very bottom of the first page, in fact the last line of

9 the first page, beginning with the words "All the Muslims..."?

10 A. "All the Muslims males between 17 and 70 years old living in the

11 area of Mostar-Dracevo (border with Croatia in Metkovic) have been

12 arrested. Most of them are in the Heliodrom (about 5.000-6.000) and in an

13 old tunnel in the airport (about 1.000) that is used as a prison. This

14 cleansing was done mainly in the villages of Dubrava, Stolac, Capljina,

15 Nisici, Celejevo, Tasovici and Osijec."

16 MR. STRINGER: Thank you. Mr. President, the last document from

17 this group is Exhibit 559. This is the document for which we have a

18 French translation in the binder.

19 Q. Mr. Van Hecke, can you describe this document, please, and give us

20 its date.

21 A. This is a report from HRC Zenica, meaning heads of the regional

22 centre in Zenica, with the subject: "The human rights situation in

23 Bosnia-Herzegovina: An emergency situation," dated on the 4th of August,

24 1993.

25 Q. Can you go to the very end of the document and tell us the name of

Page 1951

1 the author.

2 A. The document -- the author of the document is Jean-Pierre

3 Thebault.

4 Q. Now, directing your attention to page 2 of this document, item

5 number 2, if you could read item number 2 and the first paragraph of item

6 number 2(a), please.

7 A. Item number 2: "The main deterioration affects however the Muslim

8 population in HVO controlled areas, in particular in south Herzegovina.

9 "a) The situation of the about 30-40.000 civilians sieged in

10 Mostar since about three months (meaning far before any BiH army attack

11 anywhere) is now reported dramatic. Constantly shelled, with all

12 humanitarian convoys forbidden by HVO, electricity and water completely

13 cut, many typhus cases being now reported, the situation is even worse

14 than the one of all the Serbs sieged pockets. It is a real tragedy. But

15 the initial emotion of the world has greatly faded out since HVO forbid

16 carefully any entrance of the town to any international agency. Several

17 desperate call for emergency help, the last having been sent some days

18 before through ICRC, has been unsuccessful. The EC presidency, which had

19 sent a very firm letter to president Tudjman threatening him of sanctions

20 if nothing was done to relieve Mostar (17 May 1993), has not been

21 consistent with it initial attitude."

22 Q. Okay. Now, then, skipping down to item number b on the same page,

23 if you could please read that paragraph.

24 A. B, "Also since about five weeks the HVO has decided a large-scale

25 arrest operation of all the Muslim male between 16 and 60 in all the

Page 1952

1 territory under their control.

2 "These operations have followed the mutiny of Muslim soldiers of

3 the HVO who have given the opportunity to BiH army to create a horseback

4 corridor between Jablanica and Mostar along the Neretva River. But it has

5 been applied to all Muslim, even civilians, in all the 'sensitive areas,'

6 like Caplinja, Stolac, where the Muslims were the relative majority."

7 Q. And again, if you could turn the page, and beginning with the

8 second line at the top with "UNHCR."

9 A. "UNHCR and ECMM estimation is so that there are about

10 20.000 detainees, mostly civilians, concentrated in very bad conditions in

11 giant jails. The Heliodrom (Rodac) near Mostar where 5-6.000 people are

12 concentrated, the others mostly in Capljina barracks and in its

13 surroundings Gabela (6 kilometres south), Dretelj (1 kilometre north),

14 Krucevici, but also in Ljubuski. According the reports, the conditions

15 prevailing are against all international rules: Crowded jails, detainee

16 with only a little water and bread in this hot period, young civilian

17 detained (less than 18).

18 "All this appear to be a sort of concentration camp system."

19 Q. And then finally, moving down to point number c, if you could,

20 read the first sentence of point number c.

21 A. Point c, "Finally, for all Muslims who are not in jail,

22 intimidation actions are performed since several weeks and have been

23 regularly reported by ECMM."

24 Q. Thank you.

25 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, that's all of the documents we

Page 1953

1 intended to visit from this group. Perhaps before the next group, we

2 could -- this may be an appropriate time for the break.

3 JUDGE LIU: Well, we are a little bit early, but anyway --

4 MR. STRINGER: We can proceed if you wish. I just wanted to

5 mention it to you.

6 JUDGE LIU: Anyway, we will adjourn until 2.30.

7 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.55 p.m.



















Page 1954

1 --- On resuming at 2.35 p.m.

2 JUDGE LIU: So, Mr. Stringer, please continue with your witness.

3 MR. STRINGER: Thank you, Mr. President.


5 Examined by Mr. Stringer: [Continued]

6 Q. At the break, Mr. Van Hecke, we had completed an examination of

7 some of the ECMM documents. The next group which I would ask the usher to

8 provide to you would be the binder of documents provided by Bosnia and

9 Herzegovina. It's one of the blue plastic binders.

10 Mr. Van Hecke, a couple of questions about this collection of

11 documents which is in front of you. Have you had an opportunity to

12 examine and review these -- I'm getting a bit of feedback. I don't know

13 if I can do something to avoid that.

14 Have you had an opportunity to examine these documents previously

15 and to review them prior to your testimony today?

16 A. Yes, I did.

17 Q. And are you able to tell us what's the source of the documentation

18 that's in this binder?

19 A. The source of this documentation is the -- excuse me, the

20 Government of Bosnia-Herzegovina. So again, like with other states,

21 requests were made by the Office of the Prosecutor to the Government of

22 Bosnia and Herzegovina who provided us with specific documentation we

23 asked for.

24 Q. Okay. Now, at the front of this collection is a listing of all of

25 the documents. And if you could just perhaps give us an idea of what the

Page 1955

1 top half of the documents relate to generally, because they do appear to

2 be different.

3 A. Well, there were documents that -- for instance, the first one is

4 4th Corps Armija -- Bosnia-Herzegovina 4th Corps certificate related to

5 that specific person, Aziz Colakovic.

6 Q. Let me stop you there. And on that point, then, if you could move

7 down to Exhibit 771 as indicated on that list, and the remaining documents

8 on the list, again, just generally speaking, what those documents relate

9 to.

10 A. The documents in the second half relate mainly to events that are

11 covered in the indictment. One event is -- event is described in the

12 indictment that happened on the 17th of September, 1993. And the other

13 one relating to Mr. Harmandzic is an incident that happened in July of

14 1993 in Mostar.

15 Q. Okay. Now, these documents relating to these events, are you able

16 to tell us specifically when these documents came into the possession of

17 the Prosecutor's office? Were they received at the same time, different

18 times, if you know?

19 A. It happened in different times. People from my team went down to

20 Bosnia-Herzegovina, more specifically mainly to Mostar, and obtained these

21 documents from the municipality of Mostar, like the certificate and the

22 kind.

23 Q. Now, as we sit here today, are you in a position to inform the

24 Trial Chamber specifically what date each of those documents was received

25 by one of the investigators?

Page 1956

1 A. That's rather difficult to say an exact date for each of these

2 documents.

3 Q. Then, just moving up to another series of documents starting on

4 the list with Exhibit 333, that series, that four or five documents,

5 appears to be different in nature than the documents we have just been

6 talking about.

7 Can you tell us generally about those and how those were obtained

8 by the Office of the Prosecutor.

9 A. These were, again, documents obtained from the Bosnia-Herzegovina

10 authorities, that they came into possession after they seized them in the

11 taking over in July '93 when the counterattack in the Sovici/Doljani area,

12 and documents they found there.

13 Q. Again, are you in a position today to tell us specifically the

14 date in which the Office of the Prosecutor received these documents from

15 Bosnia and Herzegovina?

16 A. I don't know the date from the top of my head, no.

17 Q. In any event, could you tell us generally how the documents would

18 have been processed once they were received by the Office of the

19 Prosecutor?

20 A. Again, it would be the same system as with other documents that we

21 received. So they are brought into evidence, again, get unique numbers,

22 and are brought into our evidence unit.

23 Q. Now, if you can, can you give an indication of actually where the

24 documents would have been received by the Office of the Prosecutor?

25 A. That would mainly have been in Bosnia-Herzegovina, so in Sarajevo

Page 1957

1 or Mostar, or eventually through the embassy here. That's also another

2 possibility.

3 Q. Could you just describe that procedure for us briefly.

4 A. When we make a request to the Bosnia-Herzegovina authorities, we

5 would make a request through the embassy of Bosnia-Herzegovina here in

6 The Hague. They, in turn, send it to the authorities in Sarajevo who

7 would then do the research to get the documents or the material we ask

8 for, and then it would come back through the same way. So again through

9 the embassy, the intermediary of the embassy here in The Hague.

10 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, I just wanted to make it clear, I

11 think, that as to these documents, because they are a bit varied, we're

12 not in a position to inform the Trial Chamber specifically when each one

13 was obtained. We could supply that information to the Trial Chamber if

14 you so wish, but I did want to make it clear that I think as to these,

15 we're not in a position to provide the specific dates; not through the

16 witness, anyway, I should say. So, anyway, I just mention that for the

17 Trial Chamber.

18 Mr. Van Hecke, I want to direct your attention briefly to three of

19 the documents which are contained in this binder; first to Exhibit Number

20 333. And, Mr. President, may I add that for this set of documents, the

21 original document is in the B/C/S language, so the Defence, I think,

22 should be well positioned to review them. For this Exhibit Number 333, we

23 have an English translation.

24 Q. Mr. Van Hecke, could I ask you just to give us a description of

25 the document and the date of the document.

Page 1958

1 A. The document is under the heading of -- the heading: "The

2 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna,

3 Croatian Defence Council, Defence Departments," addressed to Mr. Slobodan

4 Bozic personally, signed by the head of the Defence Office, Jablanica

5 Municipality, Marko Rosic, with subject: Report of 23 April '93 at 1200

6 hours.

7 Q. And this is not a long document. Could I ask you to read the

8 first two paragraphs of that, please.

9 A. "After the armed conflicts in the settlements of Doljani and

10 Sovici, the interrogation and arrest of all members of the army was

11 carried out and civilians were collected in several places.

12 "In total, we have 422 women and children and 25 military

13 conscripts. Also 94 military conscripts were transported to Ljubuski.

14 Seven military conscripts who were killed and were members of the BH army

15 in Sovici have been buried so far. After the conflicts in these areas

16 ended, all Muslim houses were burned and two mosques destroyed at the

17 order of high-ranking commanders."

18 Q. Thank you. Could I now direct you to Exhibit 368, for which we do

19 have a French translation. Could you describe this document, please, and

20 give the date.

21 A. The document is under the heading of the Herceg Stjepan Brigade,

22 Mijat Tomic III Battalion, Jablanica, signed by Blaz Azinovic, dated 7th

23 May of '93, with a subject: "Report of the work of the Deputy Commander

24 for SIS, Security and Information Service."

25 Q. Could you read the first two paragraphs of that document.

Page 1959

1 A. "On 17 April 1993 (Saturday), an armed conflict broke out between

2 HVO/Croatian Defence Council/units and the army of BH in the village of

3 Sovici. On that day, I happened to be at the headquarters in Doljani.

4 "The next day, I was assigned to attend an interrogation of

5 prisoners who had surrendered that day. Mr. Ivan Anderbah conducted the

6 investigation. When the interrogation was over, around 2100 hours on that

7 day, Mr. Ivan took 84 members of the BH army to Ljubuski with him for

8 further handling."

9 Q. Thank you. Could you please skip the following paragraph and move

10 down one paragraph to the words -- the sentence which begins "By order

11 from..."

12 A. "By order from Mr. Vlado Curic (Mr. Tuta's commissioner), the

13 transport of prisoners to Sovicka vrata, together with civilians (women

14 and children), began around 1600 hours on the 5th of May, 1993. From

15 there, in the presence of Mr. Vlado, they were taken to Gornji Vakuf under

16 guard by buses which had been waiting for them there."

17 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] For the sake of clarification, I

18 heard "Mr. Vlado Juric" in the headphones because I don't have the

19 original text, and that is what I heard from the interpreters. Is that

20 right, is it "Juric"? For the record, please, let us clarify this point,

21 Mr. President, if possible.

22 JUDGE LIU: Okay. Maybe Mr. Stringer could ask his question to

23 the witness, again.

24 MR. STRINGER: Yes, Mr. President.

25 Q. Well, Mr. Van Hecke, yes, if you could just state the name again

Page 1960

1 clearly for the record.

2 A. As I did my best to pronounce in the proper way, I thought I said

3 "Curic" and not "Juric." So the "C" with the small -- very well. If you

4 want, I can spell it out for you like it's written in my document.

5 MR. STRINGER: Again for the record, Mr. President, the original

6 document is a B/C/S document, and so in the translation there's an

7 indication -- some uncertainty about the name, and so I think it's just

8 there in the record.

9 Q. Now, could you continue reading the first sentence of the -- first

10 two sentences of the next paragraph.

11 A. "After the operation itself, there were instances" --

12 Q. I'm sorry. I meant -- did you already read the preceding

13 paragraph on the bottom of --

14 A. No, I did not.

15 Q. -- the first page? Could you read that paragraph, please.

16 A. "Throughout the operations, the conduct of our army was fair and

17 careful so that we did not have any wounded or dead soldiers. Mr. Tuta

18 commanded the overall operation in this area (Risovac, Sovici and Doljani)

19 in which troops from elsewhere also took part, such as, for instance, the

20 Convicts' Battalion, the Poskok/viper/battalion, the Grdjani, the Posusje

21 mortarmen, and others who I do not know very well."

22 Q. And the next document is Exhibit 389. Can you describe this

23 generally and inform us of the date.

24 A. This is a document under the heading of: "The Republic of

25 Bosnia-Herzegovina, Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna, HZ H-B, Croatian

Page 1961

1 Defence Council, Defence Office, Jablanica Municipality," dated 13 May

2 1993, signed by the head of the Defence Office, Marko Rosic.

3 Q. And just could you read for us the first paragraph, the paragraph

4 which is indicated as Number 1.

5 A. "All movable and immovable property of the exiled Muslim

6 population shall be considered war booty and shall belong to the Croatian

7 Defence Council of the HZ H-B."

8 Q. And, finally, I do have one last document to refer to, which is

9 the next one in the binder, Exhibit 418. I may not have one of those for

10 the ELMO. Could you describe this and give us the date, please.

11 A. This again is a document under the heading of: "The Republic of

12 Bosnia-Herzegovina, Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna, Croatian Defence

13 Council, Defence Department," dated in Mostar the 29th of May, 1993,

14 signed by the Commander of the Convicts' Battalion and the Anti-Terrorist

15 Group, Mladen Naletilic, Tuta.

16 Q. Just to be absolutely clear on this, do you know whether, in fact,

17 the signature appearing on the original language version of this document

18 is, in fact, the signature of Tuta?

19 A. Well, it appears to be similar to other documents I've seen that

20 were signed by the word "Tuta."

21 Q. But do you know?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Now, going back, if you could just read perhaps the heading in the

24 first paragraph of that document.

25 A. The heading says: "Order to Commander Stipo Polo. The

Page 1962

1 above-named person is give all authority to control and prevent all

2 criminal activities in the areas of Doljani, Sovici, Risovac and Vrata

3 Cvrsnica and the right to arrest or liquidate them."

4 MR. STRINGER: Thank you. Mr. President, that's all the questions

5 I had concerning this group of documents, and I would propose, then, to

6 move to the next set and would ask that the usher provide the witness with

7 the binder of exhibits which are called "The Seized Documents."

8 Q. Mr. Van Hecke, again, a series of questions about the documents

9 which are in this binder. I believe you testified a little bit already

10 about a search and seizure operation. Have you had an opportunity to

11 review the documents in this binder?

12 A. Yes, I had.

13 Q. And can you tell us, for the record, the source of these

14 documents, where they were obtained, and when?

15 A. They were obtained during the search and seizure operation we did

16 in the second half of September 1998 in Siroki Brijeg in the location I

17 pointed out on the photo and videos before, known as the tobacco station

18 of Siroki Brijeg.

19 Q. Could you describe briefly the manner in which these documents

20 were obtained and how they were kept by the Prosecutor's office.

21 A. Yes. A big scale search operation was set up by the Office of the

22 Prosecutor. As I said before, it was organised by a level higher than

23 myself. So I was more an executioner in this case than the leading

24 agent. So searches took place with search warrants issued by a Judge of

25 the ICTY, the Tribunal, to do searches in three locations; Vitez, Mostar,

Page 1963

1 and Siroki Brijeg. There were three teams of the Office of the Prosecutor

2 went to these three locations. I was, myself, involved in the Siroki

3 Brijeg operation where we went through documents that are kept there in

4 that specific location in Siroki Brijeg in offices of the Ministry of

5 Defence. And documents were seized by us, brought over to The Hague. And

6 again, the same procedure took place as I explained before in bringing

7 these documents into evidence.

8 Q. Thank you.

9 Again, the documents in the binder come from where?

10 A. They come from Siroki Brijeg, from the tobacco station.

11 Q. Thank you.

12 Let me direct you first to Number 589. To give the Trial Chamber

13 an idea of what the documents look like, could you describe this and give

14 us the date of this document.

15 A. Again, as in the previous documents, this is a document under the

16 heading of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, Croatian Community of

17 Herceg-Bosna, Croatian Defence Council, Defence Department. It's a

18 certificate. And at the bottom of the page, it has commander of the

19 Convicts' Battalion and ATJ, Mladen Naletilic, Tuta.

20 Q. Now, again, just to be crystal clear on this question, I'll ask

21 you to turn the page to the original B/C/S version of this document. I

22 want to focus on the area in which the signature and the title is found

23 and ask you a couple of questions.

24 First of all, is it your testimony or do you know whether the

25 handwritten signature on this document is, in fact, the signature of

Page 1964

1 Mladen Naletilic?

2 A. As I said, at the bottom of the page, you have first mentioning

3 commander of the Convicts' Battalion and ATJ, and then you have a line

4 with the signature, and then the name Mladen Naletilic, Tuta. The

5 signature on the line appears to me to be mentioning Ivan Andabak. So it

6 is certainly not similar to the signature we saw before saying "Tuta."

7 Q. So then just -- so the record is clear, where the name Naletilic,

8 Tuta appears, it's only the typewritten part?

9 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Mr. Krsnik, you are standing.

10 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Excuse me, I apologise for the

11 interruption, but the Defence objects because Mr. Van Hecke is certainly

12 not a handwriting expert. So I don't know how Mr. Van Hecke could

13 identify signatures. So we object on those grounds, that such questions

14 cannot be put to Mr. Van Hecke as he is not an expert witness, an expert

15 in handwriting.

16 JUDGE LIU: Well, I think the Prosecution has just asked a

17 question whether it is the signature of your client. It is not asking him

18 to certificate whether it is or not, just out of his knowledge whether he

19 can see if it is the signature of your client or not. I'm not quite sure

20 that your objection [sic] is valid.

21 Maybe Mr. Stringer could guide us in this matter.

22 MR. STRINGER: Thank you, Mr. President.

23 I can't disagree strongly with what counsel has said because,

24 clearly, the witness is not in a position to identify signatures. I can

25 tell the Trial Chamber what I am trying to do, because I think that unless

Page 1965

1 there's some clarification right at the beginning on this point, one could

2 look at the English translation, and one could just draw the conclusion

3 that, in fact, the original document unquestionably bears the signature of

4 the accused Naletilic. And to the extent that someone might be misled by

5 that, I simply wanted to raise the issue at the very start that the

6 translation may indicate something which is not precisely the case.

7 So in other words, I don't want to be raising the view or

8 suggesting that in our view, all of these were, in fact, personally signed

9 by the accused. Because there may be, in fact, a question on that which

10 does not appear on the face of the English language translation.

11 JUDGE LIU: So you must hear the explanations from Mr. Stringer on

12 this issue.

13 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Yes, indeed, I heard them, and I also

14 consulted with my colleagues, but I won't detain you any longer. I'll try

15 to clear all these matters up in the cross-examination.

16 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Please continue.


18 Q. The next exhibit that I would direct your attention to is

19 Exhibit Number 613.

20 And then could you just describe this document and tell us the

21 date, please.

22 A. Again, this is a similar document to the previous one. So again

23 the heading of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, Croatian Community

24 of Herceg-Bosna, Croatian Defence Council, Defence Department, dated

25 29 September, 1993, saying "Certificate" as title. And again at the

Page 1966

1 bottom, commander of the Convicts' Battalion and ATG, signature of Ivan

2 Andabak, mentions here Mladen Naletilic, Tuta.

3 Q. Thank you.

4 The next exhibit is Exhibit 704. I'll ask that the first page of

5 the exhibit be placed on the ELMO. Can you describe this document for us,

6 please. Give us the date.

7 A. The date is 2nd of December, 1993. The heading says Croatian

8 Community of Herceg-Bosna, Croatian Defence Council, Defence Department,

9 Convicts' Battalion, and ATJ. Subject: Salary lists for November 1993.

10 At the bottom, the words, "Commander of the Convicts' Battalion and

11 Anti-Terrorist Unit, Mladen Naletilic, Tuta."

12 Q. Then the next page of the translation, again, if you could

13 indicate, there is a group at the top and a group at the bottom, and I

14 want to focus on the group at the bottom. If you could just focus on that

15 group called Specification of the Convicts' Battalion and ATJ, or ATG. Do

16 you see on this document an indication or a reference to the ATG Vinko

17 Skrobo?

18 A. Yes, I do.

19 Q. Can you point to that, please, on the ELMO.

20 A. Right here.

21 Q. Again, moving farther down again, who is indicated as the

22 commander?

23 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Stringer, for the sake of the record, you have to

24 describe that, your witness is pointing which name.

25 MR. STRINGER: Very well, Your Honour. I apologise.

Page 1967

1 Q. Mr. Van Hecke, maybe you could just give us an indication of where

2 that is found on page 2 of this English translation.

3 A. When we look at page 2 of this English translation, the document,

4 before we come to the name under the page on the third last line, we see

5 the words "Vinko Skrobo, ATJ" and the figure "85" behind it. And at the

6 very bottom of the page, the last two lines, I would say, says on the

7 second-last line, "Commander," and on the last one, "Mladen Naletilic,

8 Tuta."

9 Q. Thank you.

10 Now, I want to direct your attention to page 10 of the English

11 translation of Exhibit 704. And directing your attention to the first

12 name that appears on that page, what is that name?

13 A. First name, also with the number "1" in front of it, says

14 Ivan Andabak.

15 Q. Now, this is a name that appears on one of the earlier documents

16 which we just reviewed, I believe, Ivan Andabak.

17 A. Yes, it appears to be there.

18 Q. Do you know the present whereabouts of Ivan Andabak?

19 A. Yes, I do.

20 Q. Could you tell us, please.

21 A. For the moment, Ivan Andabak is in custody in the Republic of

22 Croatia.

23 Q. Why is he in custody there, if you know?

24 A. He is alleged to be involved in the transport of 600 kilos of

25 cocaine.

Page 1968

1 Q. Is he the subject of any other criminal proceedings of which you

2 are aware?

3 A. Mr. Andabak is also indicted in Bosnia-Herzegovina for the moment

4 on alleged giving the orders to assassinate the Deputy Minister of the

5 Interior of the Federation of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

6 Q. Thank you.

7 Now, if I could direct you to page 30 of the English translation

8 of this document. I asked you previously if you had seen the name of the

9 Vinko Skrobo, ATG. Do you see it on this page; and can you tell us, if

10 so, where it's located.

11 A. Well, on this page under the heading saying Croatian Community of

12 Herceg-Bosna, Croatian Defence Council, Defence Department,

13 Convicts' Battalion and ATJ, with the reference number, and Siroki Brijeg,

14 2nd of December, 1993. After this heading, on the first line, we see

15 Vinko Skrobo, ATJ.

16 Q. The first name which appears on that page, can you tell us the

17 name and also the title.

18 A. It's marked with a number 1 just after Vinko Skrobo, ATJ. We see

19 Vinko Martinovic with the title "Commander."

20 Q. Thank you. This appears to be a list of names which continues on

21 to the next page. So I'll ask you to turn the next page. And at the

22 bottom of the page, if you could tell us again what name appears there.

23 A. At the bottom of the page, we have the same two last lines like in

24 the other document, saying at the second last, "Commander," and at the

25 last, "Mladen Naletilic, Tuta."

Page 1969

1 Q. Okay. Now, how many names appear on this list of Vinko Skrobo,

2 ATJ?

3 A. 85 names appear on this list.

4 Q. Referring back to page 2 of the English translation, does that

5 number 85 appear to correspond to anything that's found on this page 2?

6 A. Yes. Again, on the line I marked before on this page 2, the third

7 last line, saying Vinko Skrobo, ATJ, has at the end of that line the

8 number 85.

9 Q. Thank you.

10 The next exhibit is 753. Could you describe this document,

11 please, and tell us the date.

12 A. This is a document under the heading Bosnia-Herzegovina, Croatian

13 Republic of Herceg-Bosna, Ministry of Defence, Convicts' Battalion, with

14 the reference number and Siroki Brijeg, 8th of March, 1994, titled

15 "Certificate." And at the bottom, I see the word "Commander," and under

16 there, "Mladen Naletilic, Tuta," signed and stamped.

17 Q. Now, in the body of this document, beginning with the middle with

18 the word "wounded in the right arm..." could you just read those three

19 lines, please.

20 A. "Wounded in the right arm by an enemy shell in Rastani action on

21 22nd of September, 1993. Wounded in the head (on the right cheek) by a

22 bullet and in the right leg during combat on the Bulevar while defending

23 Mostar on 11th December, 1993."

24 Q. As you have said, this refers to someone named Robert Kolobaric.

25 What I would like to ask you to do now is go back to Exhibit Number 704.

Page 1970

1 Directing your attention to page 9 of the English translation, do you find

2 the name of Robert Kolobaric on this list from the Combat Group 6?

3 A. Yes, I do.

4 Q. What number is that on page 9?

5 A. He is under the number 3 on page 9.

6 Q. Thank you.

7 757. Can you describe that for us, please, and give us the date

8 of the document.

9 A. Document is, again, under the heading Bosnia and Herzegovina,

10 Croatian Republic of Herceg-Bosna, Ministry of Defence,

11 Convicts' Battalion, with the registration number, Siroki Brijeg, 8th of

12 March, 1994. Titled "Certificate." At the bottom, it says, "Commander,

13 Mladen Naletilic, Tuta."

14 Q. Okay. And if you could just -- if this document indicates the

15 date of the founding of the Convicts' Battalion, could you please read.

16 I'm referring specifically to the third line.

17 A. It starts with the name of a person from Siroki Brijeg was a

18 member of the Convicts' Battalion of the HVO, Croatian Defence Council,

19 from the date it was founded the 1st of June, 1991, until the 27th of

20 July, 1993.

21 Q. Thank you. The next document is Exhibit 804. Can you give a

22 general description of this document and the date, please.

23 A. The document is under the heading of: "The Bosnia-Herzegovina,

24 Croatian Republic of Herceg-Bosna, Ministry of Defence, Mostar Defence

25 Administration, Siroki Brijeg Defence Office," dated "Siroki Brijeg, 20

Page 1971

1 February 1996," with a "Decision" titled, signed by Head of Office Marinko

2 Mikulic, and a signature.

3 Q. Thank you. Directing your attention to page 2, the English

4 translation, there are a series of bulleted points in the body of the

5 document there, and I'd like to direct you to the fourth bulleted point

6 which begins "As a member of..." Could you please read that one.

7 A. "As a member of the Convicts' Battalion of Siroki Brijeg, he

8 injured his left knee," then with a question mark "(a ligament/a ligament

9 inside the left knee joint was severe) in Doljani near Jablanica on the

10 19th of April, 1993, while carrying out orders in the course of his

11 military duties."

12 Q. Thank you. And then the last document from this group,

13 Mr. President, would be Exhibit 809. And just a description and a date,

14 please.

15 A. Well, again, it has the same heading as the previous document,

16 dated "Siroki Brijeg, 2nd of May, 1996." And at the end of the document,

17 it says, "Head: Marinko Mikulic" and a signature.

18 Q. And turning your attention to page 2 of the translation, the sixth

19 bulleted point, about a third of the way down the page, beginning with the

20 words, "That the above-named..."

21 A. "That the above-named, while a member of the Convicts' Battalion

22 VP/Military Post Code/1717, on the 16th of May, 1993, in the Bulevar,

23 Mostar municipality, during the execution of a combat operation, was

24 wounded by a shell fragment in the right shin and in the neck, and that

25 the wounding occurred in the execution of an order."

Page 1972

1 MR. STRINGER: Thank you. Okay, that is all of the seized

2 documents that we wanted to discuss. And now, Mr. President, I can ask

3 that the witness be shown the last group, which is in a binder of

4 documents labelled "Croatian Government." This is one of the blue plastic

5 binders, I believe.

6 Q. Mr. Van Hecke, have you had an opportunity to examine the

7 documents that are collected in this binder previously?

8 A. Yes, I did.

9 Q. And can you tell us the source of these documents?

10 A. The source of these document is the government of the Republic of

11 Croatia.

12 Q. Are you able to tell us when these documents were obtained by the

13 Office of the Prosecutor?

14 A. Well, not the exact date. Again, they were obtained in the course

15 of investigation and were requested by the Office of the Prosecutor.

16 Q. When you say "were requested by the Office of the Prosecutor," can

17 you give a little more -- give us more information about how the

18 Prosecutor requested documents from Croatia?

19 A. Well, again - excuse me - a request was made by the Office of the

20 Prosecutor through the embassy of Croatia, Republic of Croatia, here in

21 The Hague, who then in turn sent the request further to Zagreb, after

22 which the documents came back in the reverse order.

23 Q. And in order to determine the precise dates on which these

24 documents were provided to the Prosecutor's office, well, are you -- do

25 you know, as we speak now, the exact date involved?

Page 1973

1 A. No, I don't know the exact date from the top of my head.

2 Q. Okay. How would you go about finding that out?

3 A. Well, I can go through the databases of the Office of the

4 Prosecutor and could find the date when they were received, because it's

5 all marked, of course, on paper.

6 Q. Nonetheless, though, it's your testimony that these were

7 specifically provided in response to a request for assistance or a

8 request?

9 A. Yes, they were.

10 Q. Do you know how they would have been maintained, then, by the

11 Prosecutor's office after they were obtained from the government of

12 Croatia?

13 A. Well, again they would have been -- you see, again if you go

14 through the binder, the unique number that is on each page, so they were

15 brought into evidence again through the same system I explained before in

16 my testimony.

17 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, there are five documents in this set

18 which we would propose to examine, the first of which is Exhibit Number

19 688.

20 Q. And, Mr. Van Hecke, let me first ask you to read the very -- well,

21 I'm sorry, let me back up. If you could just give us a description and

22 the date of this document.

23 A. The heading on top of the document says: "Republic of

24 Bosnia-Herzegovina, Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna, Croatian Defence

25 Council." It's subtitled: "Military Police Administration, Military

Page 1974

1 Police Criminal Department, Mostar Centre." It's dated, "Mostar, 25th of

2 November, 1993". At the bottom of the document, it says: "Head of the

3 centre, Officer Toni Ramljak."

4 Q. Okay. Now, directing your attention back to the first page,

5 there's a title or a subject of the document, and then if you could read

6 the subject and also the first paragraph.

7 A. The "Subject" says: "Report on an incident involving members of

8 the Convicts' Battalion." The first paragraph reads:

9 "At 1535 hours on 24 November 1993, in the Palace Cafe in

10 Ljubuski, Jakov Beljo, also known as Splico, member of the HVO/Croatian

11 Defence Council/Convicts' Battalion from Siroki Brijeg, was seriously

12 wounded by a gunshot fired from a nine-millimetre CZ M-75 pistol, factory

13 number B9436. The shot was fired by Robert Nosic, who left the scene

14 after the event."

15 Q. Thank you. Now, if you would please turn the page to page 2 of

16 the English translation, and if you could read for us, please, the third

17 paragraph.

18 A. "Around 2320 hours, an operations duty officer of the 5th MP" -

19 Military Police - "HVO Battalion came to the premises of the department

20 and reported that 50 to 60 members of the Convicts' Battalion had disarmed

21 the Ljubuski MP Administration and that they were coming to Mostar, to

22 collect the accused."

23 Q. And then skipping down to the next -- the second paragraph, which

24 begins with the words, "Thirty to 35..."

25 A. "Thirty to 35 persons armed with long and short weapons and hand

Page 1975

1 grenades raided the premises of the MP Criminal Department and the MP

2 Intervention Group officers' dormitory. They ordered all the members of

3 the Military Police they found - about seven or eight of them were there

4 at the time - to lie down and proceeded to disarm them."

5 Q. And then if you could again skip the next paragraph and go to the

6 second one, which begins, "The armed members..."

7 A. "The armed members of the Convicts' Battalion were personally

8 commanded by Mr. Mladen Naletilic, also known as Tuta."

9 Q. And again if you could skip the next paragraph and move down to

10 the paragraph beginning, "After spending..."

11 A. "After spending 15 minutes on the first floor, all members of the

12 Convicts' Battalion left the premises of the Department, taking the

13 accused Nosic along with them. Nosic had until that moment been guarded

14 by the officers of the MP Intervention Group on the premises of the MP

15 Criminal Department."

16 Q. And, finally, if you could read the next paragraph.

17 A. "Officers of the MP Criminal Department warned Mr. Mladen

18 Naletilic that this was not the way to ensure the legality of the

19 proceedings, and that what he was doing would achieve nothing.

20 Mr. Naletilic turned a deaf ear and blamed Mr. Biskic in person for

21 everything that happened."

22 Q. Thank you. Now, the next document I would refer you to is Number

23 687, which is a previous -- it's an earlier document in the binder. If

24 you could give a description of this document and the date.

25 A. It's a document under - excuse me - the general heading of:

Page 1976

1 "Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna,

2 Croatian Defence Council, Department of Defence, Convicts' Battalion, 1st

3 ATJ/anti-sabotage unit. Siroki Brijeg, November 25, 1993." It says,

4 "Report," and at the bottom of the document, it says: "Commander of the

5 Convicts' Battalion 1st ATJ, Mladen Naletilic, also known as Tuta," with a

6 signature on the bottom.

7 Q. And just directing you to the B/C/S document which is behind that,

8 the second page of that. Can you just tell us, the name which is

9 handwritten in there, what does it say?

10 A. The name handwritten, and just above the name is "Tuta" or appears

11 to be "Tuta."

12 Q. Now, going back to the English translation and turning to the

13 second page, going down to the fifth line, which begins, "The Military

14 Police..." If you could just start reading there and read the rest of the

15 text.

16 A. "The Military Police did not manage to arrest two executioners:

17 the late Robert Nosic from Radisici, while Mirko Bunoza, also known as

18 Hakalo, accomplice to this ruthless murder is at large, and a group from

19 the Convicts' Battalion is looking for him.

20 "In these war circumstances, it does not matter to us whether the

21 reason for the Military Police not doing its job is fear or animosity

22 towards the Convicts' Battalion, as the fact remains that the Military

23 Police has not done its job in a single case. The Commander of the

24 Convicts' Battalion has given the order for Mirko Bunoza, also known as

25 Hakalo, to be punished, believing this to be the only way to protect the

Page 1977

1 soldiers of the Convicts' Battalion."

2 Q. And then down to Exhibit Number 696, please. Could you describe

3 this document for us, please, and give us the date.

4 A. It's a document under the heading: "Croatian Republic of

5 Herceg-Bosna, Croatian Defence Council, HVO/Croatian Defence Council/Main

6 Staff, SIS/Security and Information Service/ And Military Police Sector,"

7 dated, "Posusje, 26 November 1993," addressed to HVO Convicts' Battalion

8 Commander Mladen Naletilic personally, and at the bottom of the document

9 the words: "Chief, Colonel Marjan Biskic."

10 Q. And now on page 1 of the English translation, the last paragraph

11 beginning with the words "The Convicts' Battalion..."

12 A. "The Convicts' Battalion, which was under your command, did not

13 act in accordance to the law and the HVO regulation book because they took

14 justice into their own hands. They forcefully entered the MP

15 Administration premises and disarmed all the officials. Then they

16 forcefully entered into the premises of the MP 5th Battalion in Mostar,

17 disarmed the members of the MP and, using force, took away the perpetrator

18 of the crime, Robert Nosic, and a MP Administration Officer, Mr. Zeljko

19 Dzidic."

20 MR. STRINGER: Thank you. The next document is Exhibit 707.

21 Before it goes on the ELMO, Mr. President, before I forget, this is a

22 document which we would at least provisionally tender under seal. It

23 contains information about other areas, other events which are unrelated

24 to this case, and it also involves -- or actually I should say it contains

25 the names of victims of sexual assaults, and for that reason it's not

Page 1978

1 necessary really for this case and we think that it's appropriate to

2 tender the document under seal at least provisionally until we can redact

3 names of rape victims from the document.

4 JUDGE LIU: Well, are we going to the private session when we're

5 discussing this document?

6 MR. STRINGER: No, Your Honour. The issue won't be raised during

7 the examination, nor will those parts of the document be put on the ELMO.

8 But I just wanted to note it now before -- frankly, before I forget.

9 JUDGE LIU: Okay, you may proceed.


11 Q. Mr. Van Hecke, could you please describe generally what Exhibit

12 707 is.

13 A. Well, it's a very large document saying: "Croatian Community of

14 Herceg-Bosna, Ministry of Defence, Security and Information Service,

15 Administration," "Mostar, 4 December, 1993," directed to Croatian

16 Information Service, to Mr. M. Tudjman personally, and saying: "Enclosed

17 with this document is part of the findings on crimes in the Croatian

18 Republic of Herceg-Bosna."

19 Q. Thank you. Now, turning to page 43 of the English translation -

20 and we can put that on the ELMO - the bottom of the page, the section

21 begins, "Regarding the Convicts' Battalion..." Could you just please read

22 the first three lines of that section.

23 A. So the heading says: "The Convicts' Battalion." Then it says:

24 "As you requested, we are sending you a report on our findings on

25 the illegal activities of the members of the Convicts' Battalion. But, we

Page 1979

1 would like to point out that these are only cases /from/ sources we have

2 found to be reliable."

3 Q. And then turning to page 45 of the English translation, I'd like

4 to direct your attention to the second full paragraph and ask you to read

5 that.

6 A. "At about 2200 hours on 21 September 1993 a group of soldiers went

7 to Biljana Miljus's flat on Splitska Street 66/4 and took her away. The

8 soldiers were looking for some man, but when they saw Biljana they started

9 beating her and took her away by force in an unknown direction. These

10 soldiers have been identified as members of the Vinko Skrobo

11 Anti-Terrorist Group from the Convicts' Battalion from Siroki Brijeg."

12 Q. Thank you. And then moving to the very bottom of that same page,

13 the last paragraph which begins with, "On 29 September..."

14 A. "On 29 September 1993 in the evening, men from the Vinko Skrobo

15 Anti-Terrorist Group and the 1st Light Assault Battalion arrested a large

16 group of Muslim civilians in the Centre 2 neighbourhood. The men were

17 then imprisoned in the SVIZ Heliodrom, and the women and the children were

18 taken over to the left, Muslim side of the Neretva."

19 Q. Thank you. And then the final document is Exhibit Number 830.1.

20 Mr. Van Hecke, yes, if you could describe this document for us, please.

21 Tell us its date.

22 A. This document is under the heading: "Republic of Croatia, County

23 Court in Zagreb, Zrinjevac Number 5," so Case Number VII K-216/97, "Record

24 of 17 December 1997 of the continued main hearing before the County Court

25 in the city of Zagreb."

Page 1980

1 Q. Mr. Van Hecke, did you attend the court hearing that's referred to

2 in this record?

3 A. I was present in the courtroom, yes.

4 Q. And why did you go there?

5 A. I went there to monitor that day in the trial of Mr. Naletilic,

6 who was a defendant in this case, on the day that also Mr. Vinko

7 Martinovic would appear as a witness.

8 Q. And do you know, from having gone to Zagreb, what were the charges

9 against Mr. Naletilic in the Zagreb proceeding of this day?

10 A. There were several charges, including kidnapping of a person filed

11 against police on duty and a sentence of murder.

12 Q. And do any of those charges relate to some of the earlier seized

13 documents that we have just finished looking at?

14 A. Yes. The first two charges relate to the previous documents where

15 we talked about Mr. Bozic.

16 Q. Thank you.

17 Now, directing your attention to a page -- what is indicated as

18 page 89 of this English translation, beginning at the top where it says,

19 "Vinko Martinovic is called into the courtroom..." Can you begin reading

20 there and read down the next four paragraphs.

21 A. "Vinko Martinovic is called into the courtroom. Witness Vinko

22 Martinovic, son of Ivan, born 21st of September, 1963 in Mostar, from

23 Mostar, Splitska Street, Number 1, caterer, unrelated to the accused.

24 "The witness is advised to the effect of Article 219, Article 221,

25 and Article 315, paragraph 1, of the Law on Criminal Procedure.

Page 1981

1 "I have lived in Mostar all my life and was there also when the

2 war broke out, and I stayed in Mostar throughout the war. During the war,

3 I joined in actively on the Croatian side of becoming an HVO member. As

4 an HVO member for the duration of the war, I was a member of the 4th HOS

5 Battalion, and then an 11 [as printed] member of the Convicts' Battalion,

6 which Convicts' Battalion changed its name later five times in terms of

7 formation. It is established that the witness corrects his statement and

8 says that it was not the name Convicts' Battalion that was changed, but

9 that brigades changed within Herceg-Bosna formation-wise.

10 "The commander of the Convicts' Battalion itself was the accused

11 Mladen Naletilic. And to my knowledge, the headquarters of his command

12 was at Siroki Brijeg at the Tobacco Station. In addition to this

13 location, the Convicts' Battalion was divided into four smaller units, and

14 further into yet smaller ones, the way it is in military structure. And

15 each one had its command HQ in different places. I was with the part of

16 the Convicts' Battalion which was in charge of Mostar, so that our seat

17 was in Mostar, in Zagrebacka Street, in the building today used by the

18 Ministry of Defence. Within that part of the Convicts' Battalion, I was

19 commander of the unit called Vinko Skrobo. I do not know who was superior

20 to the commander of the Convicts' Battalion, i.e., who his commander was.

21 That, namely, is a difficult question. This was the military authorities

22 set up in the part which I know about."

23 Q. Thank you.

24 Mr. Van Hecke, were you present in the courtroom in Zagreb when

25 this testimony took place?

Page 1982

1 A. Yes, I was.

2 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, I have no further questions for this

3 witness.

4 May I -- I apologise. I forgot, as I often do, to tender the

5 exhibits. There are a lot of them. What I have done is to make a list of

6 all of the exhibit numbers for the various exhibits, photographs,

7 videotapes, documents. And if it would assist the Trial Chamber and the

8 Registrar, I could circulate this list as a way to identify all of the

9 documents we are tendering at this time.

10 JUDGE LIU: Yes, please.

11 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, I think I failed to bring a

12 sufficient number of copies of this. I could easily produce additional

13 sets of this list, perhaps during the break or whenever. It is simply a

14 matter of running back to my computer and printing it off a couple more

15 times.

16 JUDGE LIU: I think at least the Defence lawyers are entitled to

17 have copies.

18 MR. STRINGER: Or we can make copies now and distribute additional

19 copies in a few minutes.

20 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Why don't we deal with this in our proceedings

21 tomorrow morning when everybody is probably informed at least of the

22 documents.

23 Shall we begin the cross-examination first?

24 MR. STRINGER: Yes, Your Honour, I think that that would be a wise

25 use of the time that remains.

Page 1983

1 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

2 Cross-examination. Mr. Krsnik, are you going to do some

3 cross-examination to this witness?

4 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Yes, of

5 course. But not to take too much of your time, I'll try to do my best,

6 because you can see the quantity of documents that we have here, and you

7 have heard all our objections. And I repeat, we've only just now learned

8 about the testimony of this witness. We barely heard what was the

9 substance of his testimony during these two days. So that I shall try to

10 do -- to cross-examine this witness as best I know and can.

11 JUDGE LIU: Yes, please. I have no doubt about your ability.

12 Cross-examined by Mr. Krsnik:

13 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Van Hecke. I am Mr. Kresimir Krsnik, chief

14 counsel for the accused Mladen Naletilic. Since you were at Zagreb in

15 Siroki Brijeg, I believe we have already met.

16 I shall begin with a cross-examination what is freshest in our

17 mind, that is the documents. So I might start backwards. So the first

18 question that I would like to ask you would be, Do you speak Croatian?

19 A. No, I don't. I know a few words only. So that's about it.

20 Q. But you followed the trial in Zagreb, didn't you?

21 A. [No audible response].

22 Q. Could you understand the proceedings?

23 A. I had next to me an interpreter in the courtroom, whispering in my

24 ear what was said.

25 Q. Are you familiar with the judicial procedure in the Republic of

Page 1984

1 Croatia?

2 A. I certainly don't know with anything -- no.

3 Q. If you were in the courtroom, did you notice any witness for --

4 takes the notes like it is done here and referring to notes as it is done

5 here?

6 A. No, I didn't.

7 Q. Are you aware of the rights of the accused before Croatia courts?

8 A. Not completely, no.

9 Q. But you do know something, do you? Did you study Croatian

10 criminal law?

11 A. I did not.

12 Q. And tell me, from the Court records, it transpires, as we can

13 see -- will you please look at it. You have it? Good.

14 It transpires that there was a comment of the accused, a comment

15 of sorts of the accused.

16 A. Can you lead me to the exact place, please. It's pretty long.

17 Q. The Croatian translation, page 6.

18 A. I think I found it back in the English translation. I assume that

19 you refer to the -- in the English translation, page 91, to the sentence

20 in the middle of the page: "It is established that at the moment the

21 accused interrupts of his own initiative, remarking, I ordered that he

22 should be taken to that place."

23 Q. Did you know what I was going to ask you?

24 A. It was a remark of the...

25 Q. No, no, no. My only question was that it transpired from the

Page 1985

1 record that a comment was included there. I did not say whose or who it

2 referred to.

3 May I ask my question? How is the record kept in Croatian court?

4 The court record before the Croatian court, is it the same technique as

5 here before this Chamber in this Tribunal?

6 A. No, it's not.

7 Q. And do you know how the record is kept? Did you see it being kept

8 in the courtroom?

9 A. No, I know somebody was writing down what was happening, but I

10 don't know exactly how they do it.

11 Q. So you didn't notice that first everybody would say whatever he

12 had to say, and that only after that, the judge would dictate the summary;

13 or that is, the presiding judge would dictate it for the record?

14 A. It happened, yes.

15 Q. So all that is said in the courtroom is not included in the

16 record, because it is the presiding judge dictates in for the record what

17 he deems necessary?

18 A. Yes, I agree.

19 Q. Is all that was said in this courtroom reflected in this record?

20 A. Well, it's, of course, difficult to remember everything that was

21 said in court, because the proceedings take some time. I think what is

22 written down here is a reflection of what happened in the courtroom that

23 day, yes.

24 Q. Do you know how that trial ended?

25 A. Well, to my knowledge, there was no acquittal nor a sentencing in

Page 1986

1 this trial.

2 Q. Where did you get that information from?

3 A. I don't know. I got so much information. I can't recall where I

4 got the information from. I assume, and I only assume, and it's

5 dangerous, of course, that it also came from the Croatian government. But

6 I can't state this.

7 Q. Was it an oral information or was it in writing, what you received

8 from the Croatian government?

9 A. I don't remember.

10 Q. In Croatia, can the executive branch of power interfere in the

11 judicial branch of power?

12 A. I don't know.

13 Q. Do you know who is responsible for information about court

14 proceedings in Croatia?

15 A. I'm afraid I missed one word. Excuse me.

16 Q. Regarding the information about different proceedings before

17 Croatian courts, who is in charge of providing information about those

18 proceedings?

19 A. No, I don't [sic].

20 Q. Is the Croatian government responsible for producing such

21 information?

22 A. I don't know.

23 Q. Was Mr. Naletilic arrested lawfully in the Republic of Croatia?

24 A. That's, I assume, something that the Republic of Croatia has to

25 find out for itself.

Page 1987

1 Q. But you are an investigator who conducts very exhaustive

2 investigations. I'm asking you if, during your exhaustive investigation,

3 you found that whether the treatment of my client was in accordance with

4 law.

5 A. Well, as I explained before, heading an investigation team, or one

6 of us heading an investigation team with different branches. So part of

7 my investigation team are legal advisors or legal advisors or lawyers who

8 work in very close cooperation with me. So I am to assume that they

9 looked into the matter.

10 Q. Do you know where the alleged crimes were committed and where the

11 trial took place, the trial for those alleged crimes took place?

12 A. I know the alleged crimes took place in Hercegovina, so within

13 Bosnia-Herzegovina, and the trial took place inside the Republic of

14 Croatia.

15 Q. And you did not find it odd?

16 A. Can I explain why I don't find it odd?

17 No, I didn't find it odd.

18 Q. No.

19 Do you know when cases can be conducted for crimes committed in

20 either territory of the different state under Croatian law?

21 A. I don't know it under Croatian law.

22 Q. And you followed that trial as a member of the investigating team?

23 A. I did.

24 Q. Tell me: Were you present at the hearing when the bail was

25 offered for his release?

Page 1988

1 A. No, I wasn't.

2 Q. And do you know what followed after the Court's decision to accept

3 it and that the accused could be released?

4 A. No, I don't.

5 Q. Did the Office of the Prosecutor of which you make the part as

6 investigator take any steps on that occasion?

7 A. I don't know if steps were made at that occasion or others.

8 Q. Are you aware that detention was requested by this Tribunal -- or

9 rather, by the Office of the Prosecutor of this Tribunal?

10 A. As I say, the legal matters are mainly dealt with by the legal

11 advisors of the team. I, as a team leader, have mainly organisational and

12 administrative power.

13 Q. This case was provoked -- or rather, it was conducted following an

14 order to arrest my client so that he could be turned over to this

15 Tribunal. Are you aware of that?

16 A. It is not true.

17 Q. How do you know that?

18 A. I can tell you because from the top of my head, your client was

19 arrested in the course of February 1997, and we started our investigation

20 and decided to start the investigation in March of 1997, after his arrest.

21 Q. Then how is it that there are statements of some witnesses which

22 date back to '95?

23 A. Well, there is a very simple explanation for it. In the course of

24 other investigations, the name of your client came up by witnesses who

25 were interviewed.

Page 1989

1 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I see it is 4.00, and I

2 am going to move on to a different topic. Tomorrow I will try to see to

3 make my cross-examination as efficient and as brief as possible.

4 JUDGE LIU: Thank you for reminding us of the time.

5 We'll adjourn to tomorrow morning, 9.30.

6 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I apologise.

7 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.00 p.m.,

8 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 12th day of

9 September, 2001, at 9.30 a.m.