Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 2500

1 Wednesday, 19 September 2001

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.32 a.m.

5 JUDGE LIU: Call the case, Madam Registrar.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. This is the case number,

7 IT-98-34-T, the Prosecutor versus Naletilic and Martinovic.

8 JUDGE LIU: Before we come to the next witness, I have a question

9 to ask Mr. Krsnik. Yesterday afternoon, you said you would give me your

10 initial response to documents intended by the Prosecutor.

11 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. Yes,

12 that is indeed so. Thank you for allowing me to speak.

13 We do object to the document, but the Defence also objects to the

14 manner of introduction of the documents. Your Honour, we searched for

15 these documents for the whole afternoon yesterday and evening, because,

16 you know, these 17 binders, I really cannot keep them here. And your

17 decision was regardless of what binder a document was in, if one intended

18 to tender a document, that it should be shown. Their Document 704,

19 page 10, which was introduced and contained the name of Mr. Soldo, we did

20 not know what the document was about and we couldn't know it until we

21 found it, so it made the whole situation for us more difficult. And

22 please could you see that your decision be complied with, both on our part

23 and on the part of the Prosecution, that is, that both sides be told in

24 advance.

25 There is another bunch of documents, the ones that were introduced

Page 2501

1 by Mr. Van Hecke, because this was a small bundle so we could carry it

2 with us. So yesterday I could not say anything, and we finally found the

3 document. We object to it. This is a document from the tobacco station.

4 I apologise to my learned friends. I believe that that is it. This is

5 one of the documents that is snatched from the tobacco station. We

6 objected to those documents before, and we object to them today.

7 As for the two passes, the two laissez-passer, that is, 198.1 and

8 Exhibit 262.1, we have no objections to the admission of those documents.

9 Thank you very much.

10 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Krsnik. But I think

11 yesterday the Prosecutor was only tendering the two documents, that is,

12 P198.1 and Document P262.1. Is that true?

13 MR. SCOTT: Yes, Your Honour, that's true. It was only those two

14 documents with the witness yesterday afternoon. I might respond, two

15 brief points, Your Honour.

16 Admittedly, I think we are all still a bit finding our way on the

17 best way to handle the volume of exhibits. I think it's evident at this

18 point - I hope - that the Prosecution has made a tremendous effort to

19 organise these materials in a way that makes the most sense substantively,

20 that is, ultimately putting them in a chronological sequence. So if you

21 will, the story is told if one reads the documents from beginning to end.

22 They are in chronological order, except for some updated material at the

23 beginning.

24 THE INTERPRETER: Would you slow down, Mr. Scott, please.

25 MR. SCOTT: My apologies. It is a huge effort. We're not asking

Page 2502

1 anyone to pat us on the back, but we're simply saying a huge effort has

2 been made. We don't necessarily intend to provide every single additional

3 copy to the Defence every day, I don't think, because frankly at that

4 point we're now creating still additional sets of documents. It was a

5 huge effort and expense, et cetera, et cetera, to create multiple

6 17-binder sets. And the reason we did that - and I'm not sure any other

7 Prosecution trial team has done that, perhaps they have - was to simplify

8 and make the case more efficient and to make sure that everyone had the

9 materials in an organised way. Now, it may not work perfectly still, but

10 I can just tell the Chamber that we're trying, we're making every effort

11 to be as helpful as we can.

12 Your Honour, I just want to mention in passing, the issue has been

13 raised now several times about a challenge to the seized documents. I

14 don't want to obviously get into an argument about that now, I don't

15 intend to, but I would simply note to the Chamber that throughout the

16 Pre-Trial procedure, throughout the Pre-Trial in this case, which has gone

17 on for some time, there was never a challenge -- there was no motion to

18 suppress, there was never a challenge, a motion filed to that search and

19 seizure operation, which frankly could have been done a substantial time

20 ago.

21 Those are our comments, Your Honour. Thank you.

22 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Well, we are not going into a debate, you

23 know, on those documents at this moment. If you have something to say,

24 just put it in very concise way.

25 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours, very

Page 2503

1 concisely. We objected to the manner of introduction of documents because

2 we received copies of two documents before the hearing, so we could have

3 been given a copy of the third document that was shown the witness

4 yesterday, but we didn't know what that document was about. And I think

5 that my objection is well grounded. I say nothing else.

6 As for the rest of my -- as for other documents that my learned

7 friend is speaking about, we simply had no idea where those documents came

8 from, and what were they. Whether my learned friend wanted to produce

9 them and turn them into evidence at that stage of the indictment, we

10 simply did not know. And we had no idea where the documents came from.

11 So I think it is not the right time to discuss the matters that were

12 considered -- that were the subject of our Pre-Trial sessions. So I do

13 not think we should discuss it right now.

14 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

15 Now, we are more concentrated on the two documents which we

16 admitted into the evidence, that is Document P198.1 and the P262.1. The

17 Defence counsels have no objections to these two documents. They are

18 admitted into the evidence under the seal.

19 The Registrar will be instructed to give a proper number at a

20 later stage. Thank you.

21 Mr. Scott, are you ready for your next witness?

22 MR. SCOTT: Yes, Your Honour, we are. He will be seeking

23 protective measures. Perhaps we should go to private session for a

24 moment. Well, it's probably not necessary to do that.

25 I suppose I can just tell you -- I don't think there will be an

Page 2504

1 objection based on past practice -- this witness seeks to have a

2 pseudonym, which I believe, if I am correct, would be Witness S, and to

3 have his facial image distorted. Those are protections. We do have a

4 sheet on the A4 format prepared, as the Court has instructed us.

5 JUDGE LIU: I guess there is no objections from the Defence

6 counsel.

7 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] As we said yesterday, no objections.

8 There are no objections with regard to witnesses coming from the former

9 Yugoslavia. Thank you.

10 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Yes. I just nodded; but for the

11 record, I am repeating. We have no objections.

12 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Thank you very much. The protective

13 measures is granted.

14 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. President. I propose we will bring the

15 witness in.

16 Your Honours, perhaps I can use the time profitably to say that

17 this witness will talk about the parts of the indictment, the background,

18 paragraphs 7, 9, and 11; superior authority, paragraphs 14 to 17; the

19 general allegations, paragraphs 18 to 21; count 1, paragraph 30, 32

20 through 34; counts 2 to 8, paragraphs 35 to 38, paragraphs 41, 42, and 44;

21 count 21, paragraph 57.

22 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

23 [The witness entered court]

24 JUDGE LIU: Good morning, Witness.

25 THE WITNESS: Good morning.

Page 2505

1 JUDGE LIU: Would you please make the solemn declaration.

2 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

3 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

4 JUDGE LIU: Sit down.

5 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

6 WITNESS: WITNESS S

7 [Witness answered through interpreter]

8 Examined by Mr. Scott:

9 Q. Witness S, I am referring to you in that way because the Chamber

10 has granted protective measures by which your true name will not be used.

11 You will also have your facial image distorted for purposes of broadcast

12 and for the record. You will be referred to, instead of your real name,

13 as "Witness S."

14 So the usher is going to show you now a piece of paper that has

15 your name on it so there is a record of your true identity. Could you

16 please look at that and simply say yes or no, is that your name, without

17 saying your name, please.

18 A. It is.

19 MR. SCOTT: I believe, Your Honour, that will be marked whatever

20 the next W --

21 THE REGISTRAR: It will be PW19. Entered as PW19.

22 MR. SCOTT: Thank you.

23 Q. Witness S, you were born in Mostar in 1973 and you lived there

24 more or less continuously until September of 1993. Is that correct?

25 A. It is.

Page 2506

1 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please come closer to the

2 microphone.

3 THE REGISTRAR: Witness, could you please move forward.

4 MR. SCOTT:

5 Q. Is it correct, Witness S, that you grew up and lived on the west

6 side of Mostar, and that the area where you lived was primarily or mostly

7 Croat?

8 A. Yes, it is.

9 Q. Are you, yourself -- I don't know which term you may prefer -- but

10 you consider yourself either Muslim or Bosniak?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Do you have a preference whether one refers to your nationality or

13 origin as Bosniak or Muslim?

14 A. Doesn't matter.

15 Q. All right.

16 Witness S, have you ever known a person named Vinko Martinovic,

17 Stela?

18 A. I do.

19 Q. Tell the Chamber, please, how you know him, starting with how you

20 became first acquainted with him.

21 A. Well, I've known him since my early childhood because I lived in

22 the same part of the town as Stela did. And I know him best because Stela

23 was a taxi driver with a stop next to the mosque in Balinovac, and that is

24 the area where I spent most of the time as a child and an adolescent. And

25 that is how I came to know him.

Page 2507

1 Q. Did you engage in any sort of business dealings, if you will, with

2 Stela as a young person?

3 A. Well, yes. On a couple of occasions, I borrowed some money from

4 Stela. Because Stela was a taxi driver, he was wise up to certain things

5 that went on in Mostar. I guess he knew lots of people. And I asked -- I

6 asked him to lend me some money so that I could buy some cigarettes,

7 smuggle them over, and then sell them at a slightly higher price, return

8 the money to Stela, and of course keep the rest of the proceeds.

9 Q. Did Stela have any information for you as to where you could

10 obtain cigarettes at a cheaper price?

11 A. Yes, he told me that on a couple of occasions.

12 Q. Now, directing your attention a bit forward to April 1992, did you

13 become involved in any way in the defence of Mostar against the Serbs?

14 A. Yes. From March '92, in the 30 days, I did not serve the army, so

15 it was all perfect, it was all a big novelty to me, and I was in luck.

16 There was Vinko Martinovic, Stela, Vinko Martinovic, Vina, and a couple of

17 other guys who were older than I, and another man called Zela, that is

18 Marko Zelic, and as a matter of fact they told us how to use weapons.

19 That was the first time in our lives that we saw rifles.

20 Q. All right.

21 A. And that was my first contact with them.

22 Q. We'll come back to some of those additional persons in a few

23 moments. Who did you consider during this time is your commander, either

24 officially or unofficially?

25 A. Well, in the very beginning, I simply did not see anyone as a

Page 2508

1 commander, because truth to tell, I had no military experience, as I had

2 never served in any army. And those who were my seniors, well, I simply

3 followed their example, because we simply thought that they knew things,

4 that they'd help us survive the war and defend the town against the

5 Serbs. The most prominent persons in my -- the most prominent figures in

6 my eyes were Stela and Vina.

7 MR. SCOTT: I'll tell Your Honours, we'll come back to Vina in a

8 moment. I'm not leave that hanging but will get there in just a few

9 minutes.

10 Q. Now, before we go forward, Witness S, can you tell us anything

11 else you observed about Stela's conduct or behaviour during the

12 approximate 1992 time period, in terms of property or things that

13 happened?

14 A. Right. In the beginning, those things seemed to me quite normal,

15 because there was no authority and everybody could do as he pleased. So

16 Stela and Zela and Vina and all the others would turn up in a new car

17 every day. In the beginning, it looked funny and then strange to me. It

18 looked odd. I didn't know how to explain it, because it went in day and

19 day out. And once I was present when those cars were painted camouflage

20 colours. I participated in the painting of a car myself, too.

21 Q. Did you have any understanding of where these cars came from?

22 A. Well, I knew they were some private cars, that is, cars that had

23 been seized from private persons. And the car that I painted, that was a

24 Renault 4 Special. I knew it had been taken from a company called Parkovi

25 and Naselja. That is, that was a company that was responsible -- it was a

Page 2509

1 public utility company responsible for cleaning the streets, maintaining

2 parks, et cetera.

3 Q. Can you tell the Chamber around this time whether there was other

4 taking of property or what some might call "looting" going on? I'm not

5 asking you to tell us who at the moment, just were those things

6 happening?

7 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Meek. I saw Mr. Meek standing.

8 MR. MEEK: May it please the Trial Chamber, I must object on the

9 ground that, Number 1, the Prosecutor is beginning to ask leading

10 questions of this witness and, Number 2, I do not believe that the events

11 which this witness is presently testifying about concern our indictment,

12 which is from April 1993 to January 1994. And this would appear to be

13 some evidence of bad acts or prior crimes to prove the -- the Prosecutor

14 to prove that if something was improper earlier, that something must have

15 been improper later. And on these grounds, I object.

16 JUDGE LIU: As for the first objection, Mr. Scott, I think your

17 question is some sort of leading one, because you said whether there was

18 other taking of properties, what some might call "looting" going on, which

19 you gave the indication to this witness the answer. As for the second

20 objection, maybe you could clear it up.

21 MR. SCOTT: Yes, Your Honour, if I could respond to both.

22 Your Honour, I submit that the first objection is not proper.

23 It's not leading, other than to direct the witness to a particular topic.

24 I can't very well, frankly, ask him simply, "What happened next," "What

25 happened next," because that won't take us very far. I didn't suggest

Page 2510

1 what was happening or who was doing it. I simply asked him during this

2 time period whether a certain type of activity was taking place. I will

3 try it again. I'm not sure I can do any better than that.

4 As to the second objection, Your Honour, these are relevant,

5 clearly. It's the Prosecution's position that Stela was a prominent

6 figure in Mostar, both before, during and after the war; that he had a

7 network of people that were involved -- excuse me, I'll slow down. He had

8 a network of people, common associates that he associated with before,

9 during, and after the war; that he was a leading figure and engaged in

10 looting, again what we contend, the Prosecution contends, if you want to

11 call it "looting" or "theft", again both before the war, during the war

12 and after the war. It goes to a consistent course of conduct involving

13 this accused.

14 JUDGE LIU: Maybe you could rephrase your question.

15 JUDGE CLARK: Could I just say something. Mr. Scott, I think you

16 went into the specifics of this witness's evidence without really properly

17 laying the background. We're not supposed to know the story in advance.

18 I don't know about what happened in the town of Mostar that led this young

19 man to leave whatever work he was doing, whether it was smuggling

20 cigarettes or otherwise, and Mr. Martinovic from driving a taxi suddenly

21 to having arms. You haven't actually told us or asked this witness to

22 tell us what happened that they needed to be introduced to the use of

23 weapons.

24 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, I'll be happy to go back to it. It is

25 true that in the interests of making some of these witnesses as short as

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Page 2512

1 possible, we are trying to build upon the record in the case. But I

2 appreciate --

3 JUDGE CLARK: But his evidence would make more sense if we had had

4 a little bit of that background from him.

5 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, I'm happy to try to assist.

6 JUDGE CLARK: Thank you.

7 MR. SCOTT:

8 Q. Witness S, let's go back. You've heard, I hope through

9 interpretation, the Chamber's various comments, and my apologies for not

10 taking you through other parts of your story.

11 Directing your attention, let's go back to your involvement with

12 cigarettes. Can you just tell us or give us an idea, by the way, of

13 approximately how long did you engage in that activity and how often did

14 you interact with Mr. Martinovic on that point?

15 A. Well, it happened several times. I cannot say whether it happened

16 five, six, or maybe even as many as ten times. And I communicated with

17 Stela with regard to these matters two or three times -- once, perhaps

18 twice, perhaps three times. It was a long time ago. I cannot be

19 accurate. And I simply -- I don't know. That was the way to get by --

20 some dough and take a girl out. At that time, that was the only way in

21 which I could make some money. I mean smuggling was the only way out that

22 I saw.

23 Q. Please respond, if you can, to Judge Clark's questions about how

24 did you -- what were the circumstances - excuse me - in Mostar during

25 approximately the first half of 1992 that caused you to become involved in

Page 2513

1 any sort of military or quasi-military way with Mr. Martinovic, Stela, and

2 others that you named a few minutes ago? If you can just tell us a bit

3 more about that, please.

4 A. First I'd say that I really don't know about this "military" and

5 "paramilitary" because I cannot tell one from the other. I could not

6 really tell you what the difference is.

7 Secondly, I would say that in those early days of the war, I

8 simply followed the example of those who were older than I was, like

9 Stela, like Vina, like Bosnjic and many others. They were my models. And

10 I realised that Serbs would tear our city apart, and I was afraid, of

11 course. I thought it was my duty not only to defend myself but also my

12 family and my brother, my friends and my city. And now whatever you call

13 it, a military or a paramilitary formation, but when the Serbs started

14 shelling the city, the only ones who were there to keep us together and to

15 help us was Stela, and they were really the only ones. And I think that

16 was really quite decent on their part.

17 Q. Did you know at this time -- continuing on the questions raised by

18 Judge Clark -- do you know whether Stela was identified with any

19 particular military or paramilitary unit or organisation at that point in

20 time?

21 A. At that point, I didn't know about Stela, didn't know where the

22 commands were coming from, why all these things were happening that were

23 happening, and I didn't care at that point. I just wanted to save my

24 life, and I was about 20 years old. All I was thinking about was how to

25 survive. When I survived the first shelling, I just prayed to God that I

Page 2514

1 live to see another day. That was at first.

2 After a period of time, I saw that Stela was with HOS, together

3 with Vino Martinovic, Semir Bosnjic, but that only happened later. At

4 first, I did not know anything.

5 Q. All right. Witness, if we could perhaps, with that additional

6 background, move forward just a bit. Did you at some point as time went

7 by, based on what you've just told us in the last few minutes, become more

8 officially, if I can use that term, associated with a particular military

9 formation?

10 A. Well, yes. When -- over time, when the defence of the city became

11 organised, and it looked better every day, I remember this 4th Battalion,

12 which later was renamed the Tihomir Misic battalion, and I stayed with

13 them for the most part of the war, almost until the end of it.

14 Q. Well, why don't we jump forward just for a moment just to give

15 some parameters on the time period you're going to testify about today.

16 Did you leave the military, in fact, leave Mostar, sometime before the war

17 was over?

18 A. I left Mostar. I think that was exactly to a day eight years

19 ago. I think it's actually today's date. I may be off by a day. In

20 other words, on the 19th of September, 1993. And the entire period up to

21 that date, I was with the 4th Battalion.

22 Q. All right. And that was my next question. So once -- just to be

23 clear -- once you joined the 4th Battalion, you continuously were a member

24 of that unit until you left Mostar on about the latter part of September

25 1993. Is that correct?

Page 2515

1 A. I can tell you something else that I thought at that time that I

2 was not a soldier. In 8th of May, 1993, I was disarmed in a coffee bar in

3 Mostar; and for 10 days thereafter, I did not consider myself a member of

4 any unit. But for the rest of the time, yes.

5 Q. All right. Now, just so the record is very clear on this, when

6 you've mentioned being part of the 4th Battalion, or the Tihomir Misic

7 Battalion, again, what military side or army was that a unit of, if you

8 understand my question?

9 A. It was part of the Croatian Defence Council.

10 Q. Can you tell us, please, during this time, were there times when

11 you fought under Stela's command?

12 A. Well, there were several situations. At the very beginning of the

13 war, I saw Stela as a commander, and there were additional situations

14 where Stela would issue orders during the war. But he was not my

15 commander. And to be honest, I could not and did not want to ever oppose

16 Stela.

17 Q. All right. Well, perhaps we'll come to that in a few minutes,

18 please.

19 Can you tell the Chamber who your commanders were in the

20 4th Battalion, and give us the names, as best you can. And it may help

21 the record and translation if you can spell the names for us.

22 A. Shall I tell you who they were from the very beginning of the

23 war?

24 Q. Well, I'm not sure how many you have in mind. Yes, please, go

25 ahead.

Page 2516

1 A. The first one was the late Tihomir Misic, who was later killed,

2 and the unit was then named after him. For a while, his father was the

3 commander, Mladen Misic. Then a man whose name I cannot recall today.

4 But while Tihomir Misic was in command, he was the communications

5 man, which means at the very beginning of the defence of the city. Then

6 there was a man nicknamed "Fritz." I don't know his real name. That is

7 what I can recall.

8 And my superiors were Vinko Martinovic, as commander of my

9 company. He was a company commander. And a man nicknamed Gaga [Realtime

10 transcript read in error "Gava"], Dragan Petkovic, who was my platoon

11 commander.

12 Q. Let me stop you there for a moment. The transcript says "Gava."

13 If you can assist us, please, I think it is Gaga, G-a-g-a. Is that

14 correct?

15 A. Yes. G-a-g-a.

16 Q. You mentioned that he was, if you will, your most direct

17 commanding officer in terms of at the platoon level?

18 JUDGE CLARK: Mr. Scott, could you ask this witness to clarify.

19 That's the second use of the name "Vinko Martinovic."

20 MR. SCOTT: Sorry, that's my next inquiry, Your Honour. Sorry, my

21 apologies.

22 Q. Witness S, before we turn to Judge Clark's question, can you just

23 confirm, my last question to you was your most direct commanding officer

24 in terms of a platoon level was this Mr. Gaga. Is that correct?

25 A. I apologise really, but I have both of them in my head, Vina and

Page 2517

1 Stela, and I distinguish them. But this was Vinko Martinovic, Vina, not

2 Vinko Martinovic, Stela. And my immediate superior was Dragan; he was my

3 platoon commander.

4 Q. Now, Witness S, very specifically, because I think it will be

5 obvious to people in the courtroom, this is an important point. You knew

6 another person during the same time, in roughly the same location, also

7 named Vinko Martinovic. Is that correct?

8 A. Yes, the only difference was that they had two different

9 nicknames. One was nicknamed Stela, and the other one Vina.

10 Q. And again, so the record is abundantly clear, when you said a

11 moment ago that one of the Vinko Martinovics was your commander at some

12 level, that was the Vinko Martinovic also known as Vina, V-I-N-A. Is that

13 correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Now, I would like you to tell us, please, so there's -- if you can

16 tell us a bit more about these two men who have the same name. Were these

17 two men similar in appearance and similar in their conduct, or can you

18 please just tell these things -- explain these things to the Chamber.

19 A. No. They looked completely different, and they behaved in a

20 completely different manner. I know that they perhaps were of the same

21 generation. Even Vina, Vinko Martinovic, Vina, actually was a taxi

22 driver, just as Stela was, and they were using the same taxi stop. But I

23 distinguished them by other features.

24 Q. You have said just now that they physically looked very

25 different. Is that correct?

Page 2518

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Would you look around the courtroom today, please, if you can,

3 with the way you are screened, but if you can please look around the

4 courtroom and tell us if you see the person you knew then as Vinko

5 Martinovic, Stela?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. I want you to look around physically and identify him for the

8 record. You'll have to say -- describe his clothing and where he is

9 located in the courtroom, please.

10 A. He is sitting in a back row to my left. From what I can see,

11 second from the left. If I can see correctly, he is wearing a suit, he

12 has receding hair, and he is stocky.

13 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, may the record please reflect that the

14 witness has identified the accused Martinovic.

15 Q. Now, you also said a moment ago that their conduct was quite

16 different. Can you tell us more what you mean by that?

17 A. I don't know. It's a bit difficult for me to explain it right

18 now. I know both of them. I've known them since I was small. And the

19 difference between them is not enormous, but they behaved differently

20 during the war. That was a significant difference.

21 Q. Well, tell us about that, please. How did they behave

22 significantly different during the war?

23 A. Vina was much more withdrawn, much more calm and was a better

24 person, according to me. And through my conversations with Vina, he said

25 that he knew that the war was going to come to an end. And he said that

Page 2519

1 we had to keep up a reputation, because the war will end one day.

2 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Seric.

3 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think that this

4 witness is no longer testifying to the facts in the case of the

5 Prosecutor; but rather, he is testifying about character of this person,

6 and that is not his -- this is not what he was called to do.

7 JUDGE LIU: Well, I believe that it's very important for us to

8 have a clear picture of what your witness is -- and distinguish him from

9 another person who bear the same name as this person.

10 MR. SCOTT:

11 Q. Witness S, I think the Chamber has indicated, please proceed with

12 your answer. And focus, if you can, if you can tell us, conduct, what you

13 saw with your own eyes or heard with your own ears about the conduct,

14 statements or behaviour of the two men that you have been telling us

15 about, how they were different concerning the war, as you just took us to

16 a moment ago.

17 A. I would just like to ask you to point to the particular period of

18 the war. If you're referring to the period of the conflict between the

19 HVO and the AbiH, that's a totally different situation than the war

20 against the Serbs.

21 Q. Of course. Let me try to assist. Let me direct your attention to

22 approximately the middle of 1993, if that will assist you, approximately

23 the period May to September before you left, 1993. Hold on one moment,

24 please. Witness S, just a second, please.

25 [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 2520

1 JUDGE LIU: Well, Judge Clark has a question.

2 MR. SCOTT: Of course.

3 JUDGE CLARK: I normally reserve my questions to the end, but I

4 just want to get this picture clear. As you can appreciate, two of us are

5 new Judges here.

6 I'd like you to let this witness continue with the evidence that

7 he was giving on his description of the man with the nickname "Vina." And

8 I believe that he was dealing with what he calls the early part of the

9 war, which would have been the conflict with the Serbs. If we deal with

10 that first, then everything slots into place.

11 MR. SCOTT: Very well, Your Honour. Thank you.

12 Q. Witness S, you've heard the Judge's comments. Let me take you

13 back earlier, contrary to my first instruction, to the summer of '93.

14 Let's go back initially to the time in approximately the spring of 1992,

15 about which you were testifying a few minutes ago. During that time, can

16 you describe the differences or the conduct of these two men? For

17 purposes now, Stela and Vina.

18 A. Well, both Stela and Vina were with HOS, Croatian armed forces,

19 which some considered military, some a paramilitary unit, and some thought

20 that they assumed it was there just to exploit the situation for its own

21 benefit. My opinion is, and this is my personal view, that Vina was a

22 much more withdrawn and calm person who was more approachable. It was

23 easier to talk to him. He did not try to distinguish himself by doing

24 things that shouldn't have been done. And to my opinion, Stela was the

25 exact opposite of that.

Page 2521

1 Q. Well, how was he the exact opposite of that?

2 A. Well, at the very beginning of the war, as far as I know the

3 situation, Stela was the chief commander of the HOS. And from what I

4 knew, Stela and Vina were good friends. They knew each other, they

5 associated, and they were in the same business, so to speak, before the

6 war. But Stela, in my view, was a bit more aggressive, perhaps more

7 strict. Maybe that's the way I can put it. And Vina was my neighbour,

8 and I knew not only him but his brothers, his mother and father, and

9 perhaps that may have been the reason that Vina was closer to me. I

10 cannot really say. But Vina was much more calm and much more tame and a

11 person that one could talk to.

12 Q. All right. Let's go forward, then. Perhaps with that background,

13 if we do move forward to the time from approximately May to September of

14 1993 during the conflict between the HVO and the Muslims or Bosniaks. Can

15 you tell us, please, did you see differences in the conduct of Vina and

16 Stela during that time and, if so, what were the differences?

17 A. Well, the differences became much greater. I did not know what

18 role Stela was to play in that war until 8 May 1993, when I was in a

19 coffee bar in town owned by the Sadzak brothers. That evening, I learned

20 what role Stela would play in all this, because I learned that from

21 Milicevic, called "Baja" [Realtime transcript read in error "Bija"], and

22 one of the Sadzak brothers. And Vina had a completely different role. In

23 my view, Vina was to be a positive person in the next period, because he

24 was looking at me as a person, not as a Muslim, as a balija, and tried to

25 help as much as he could in these difficult times.

Page 2522

1 Q. Well, Witness, are you suggesting that there was somebody else who

2 did look at you -- to state the opposite of what you just said, was there

3 somebody who did look at you as a Muslim and, with my apology, a balija?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And who was that?

6 A. There were a lot of them.

7 Q. But in terms of your testimony in the last few minutes, are you

8 telling us -- identifying one particular person?

9 A. Yes. Stela was one of them.

10 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, I'm going to suggest, if you'll allow

11 me, that perhaps the best way to finish this particular topic is at the

12 end of the testimony as opposed to now, in terms of these differences,

13 because I think we're going to get into essentially the rest of the

14 testimony. And then by that time, it may become clear, how they were

15 different.

16 JUDGE LIU: Yes, you may arrange your order of the questions by

17 yourself.

18 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. President.

19 Q. Now, Witness S, a moment ago you took us to -- you began to take

20 us to an event on the 8th of May, 1993. I take you back there now,

21 please. Tell us what happened that evening. Just take us through as much

22 as you can. What happened?

23 A. Well, this is how it was: We were in this coffee bar called

24 "Oasis", my brother, myself and another guy. (redacted),

25 and we had spent our youth together. Oasis at that time was a place

Page 2523

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Page 2524

1 patronised by people who had done something, who had made a contribution

2 to the city, to its defence. It wasn't an open type of place. So we

3 were -- (redacted) and I were playing pool on the top floor. And

4 one of the Sadzak brothers, one of the owners, was downstairs at the bar,

5 listening to music, and --

6 Q. Witness S, my apology. I just want to caution you before you

7 inadvertently say it. You made references to your brother and you may

8 refer to other people now, and do not use your brother's name or your

9 name, of course. That may tend to identify you, and I just want to

10 caution you about that. Please go forward.

11 JUDGE LIU: Well, wait a minute. Mr. Meek.

12 MR. MEEK: Yes, Mr. President and Your Honours. I must lodge an

13 objection at this point to this open-ended question. The witness is now

14 rambling and there's no direction to this answer, and I don't believe that

15 is proper. I think that it's proper that the Prosecutor ask specific

16 questions which are not leading and there be answers, not just open-ended

17 questions that the witness can give a monologue. Thank you.

18 JUDGE LIU: Well, I'm afraid we have to see where the Prosecution

19 is leading us.

20 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, I'm happy to do it either way. There has

21 been discussion the last few days about leading, and I'm trying to have

22 the witness give a narrative without my giving him any other direction as

23 much as possible. But I'm in the Chamber's hands.

24 JUDGE LIU: Well, you may continue with your question.

25 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. President.

Page 2525

1 Q. Witness S, please just continue with your story, keeping in mind

2 the caution I gave you a moment ago. You were at this restaurant with

3 your brother and some friends, and what happened?

4 A. I don't know what time it was exactly, but it was towards the

5 evening when Mario Milicevic, called "Baja", came to the Oasis, and one of

6 the Sadzak brothers also, and one of the Sadzak brothers -- I was just

7 ordering coffee from the other Sadzak brother.

8 Q. If I can stop you there for a moment. I apologise for

9 interrupting you, but for the record, it may assist. Is "Sadzak" spelled

10 S-A-D-Z-A-K, with a diacritic on the "Z"?

11 A. Yes, just as it is on the screen now.

12 Q. Very well. Please continue.

13 A. And Baja also came upstairs and told Sadzak to come down, that he

14 had something important to tell him, and he asked the three of us to stay

15 upstairs because this was something that they needed to talk about in

16 private and we can go on with our pool game. And we did that. We

17 thought -- hadn't given it another thought. We played pool, we talked

18 about all kinds of things. And 15, 20 minutes later, maybe even half an

19 hour later, one of the Sadzak brothers came back and told us that he was

20 sorry to have to tell us the way he's going to tell us, but that Mr. Tuta,

21 whose name I heard that for the first time, had ordered that an attack on

22 Vranica be launched and the other Muslim forces, and that this attack be

23 launched the next morning at 5.05 a.m., and that the attack will start at

24 Vranica because that was a strategic point for the AbiH.

25 I felt bad to hear that this was considered a strategic point,

Page 2526

1 where so many civilians lived, and it was no secret that the headquarters

2 was there. Of course, there were armed soldiers there and they can offer

3 resistance, but I still felt very bad because I knew what could happen,

4 and I felt fear, like everybody else would. But Sadzak comforted me a

5 little bit. He called Baja and told him that he had told us this, and

6 Baja then told the three of us - we all had our own pistols with us -

7 that he apologised but he would like us to hand over these pistols. The

8 three of us just looked at each other. I think that the same thoughts

9 must have crossed our mind. I know that for a moment I thought, "Well,

10 I'm going to get a bullet now," because once you're disarmed in the war,

11 when you cannot defend yourself except maybe throw a stone, you don't feel

12 safe at all.

13 Q. Witness S, I'm going to stop you there, if I may. You've

14 mentioned a person named "Baja." Do you know his formal name or, if

15 that's only part of his name, his complete name? Can you help us?

16 A. Yes. I told you his full name before, Mario Milicevic, Baja,

17 owner of a coffee shop or a restaurant - I really don't know what to call

18 it (redacted)

19 (redacted), so that I know Mario Milicevic very well.

20 Q. And for the record, is the correct spelling of the last name

21 M-I-L-I-C, as in "ch", E-V-I-C?

22 A. M-I-R -- M-A-R-I-O, M-I-L-I-C-E-V-I-C.

23 Q. Thank you, Witness. My mistake. Now, when he entered, when Baja

24 also became part of the conversation - just taking you back to where we

25 left off - was anything else said about this planned attack the next day?

Page 2527

1 A. Well, many things were said then. I don't know whether I should

2 go into detail. It was said that the mosques would be mined, and the

3 mosques in Balinovac and Podhum were specifically mentioned. And that

4 large numbers of Muslims would be expelled; that is, women and children

5 would be expelled to the side under the BiH Army's control, that men would

6 be collected at collection points. And it was said that whoever offered

7 resistance would be simply shot, that they would be killed.

8 Q. During the same conversation, apart from the name Tuta that you

9 mentioned, was there any other name of a senior Croat figure that you

10 recall being mentioned in this same conversation?

11 A. No. I gave you the sentence as he said it that day. I think I

12 quoted it in a way.

13 Q. Very well.

14 Can you tell us, please, before moving forward, did this Baja have

15 a military group under his command?

16 A. That evening, I learned that evening that he would be one of the

17 commanders of an anti-terrorist group, which was later named Benko Penavic

18 group. And that the commander of another anti-terrorist group from Mostar

19 would be Stela. Well, naturally, started this conversation with Baja and

20 Sadzak. If they could tell me all those things, then they could tell me

21 everything, and they did not hide anything from me. I should also say

22 that at that time, I had no idea who Tuta was. And I asked Sadzak and

23 Baja, will you please tell me, who is that Tuta that you're talking

24 about?

25 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Meek.

Page 2528

1 MR. MEEK: Yes, may it please the Trial Chamber, Mr. President and

2 Your Honours. I must object. Understanding that hearsay is admissible,

3 this is the worst kind of hearsay we have of the fact that Mario Milicevic

4 walks into this coffee bar, takes two other people upstairs, those two

5 other people come downstairs. We have no foundation as to where Mario

6 Milicevic heard this information that was passed on to two brothers. And

7 this is the worst kind of hearsay. This is three or four or five times

8 removed. And I must remind the Trial Chamber, if not object, and I do

9 object to this type of hearsay because there is no foundation, and it is

10 so far removed that it is unreliable. Thank you.

11 Judge Liu: In the answers, there is still some problems that we

12 are not quite clear. Maybe the Prosecutor could direct your witness to

13 more specifics, so that to clear these things up.

14 MR. SCOTT: Yes, Your Honour.

15 Q. Witness S, let's go back. You gave us a narrative account. If we

16 can pick up a few more details, please.

17 What did you understand, if you did, about where this information

18 was coming from? Who came into the restaurant and, if you know, from

19 where, and who was providing this information?

20 A. Well, I realized that Baja had come from a meeting with the

21 Tuta -- I mean, I know Baja. I don't know Tuta. And I have no idea who

22 the man is, at that time.

23 And Baja came. And after he said all that, that is, I learned

24 about what was to happen, and Baja himself said that he had been to a

25 meeting with Tuta, and this was repeated several times. I don't know

Page 2529

1 why. But Baja looked rather nervous, rather jittery, and obviously he

2 wasn't very happy about what he was telling us, but he obviously knew what

3 he was talking about.

4 Q. Mr. President -- please, go ahead. I'm sorry. Finish your

5 answer, please.

6 A. I don't really know how to explain it. At that point, I was

7 really scared stiff. All those images that went through my head, what was

8 going on at the moment, what was to happen, my father, mother, friends,

9 relatives on both sides of the city. So a lot of things that I perhaps

10 should have asked Baja, I didn't. And perhaps I'll never get the chance

11 to ask him those things.

12 But I think Baja, perhaps, said more than he should have, as it

13 was more than clear what was to happen the next morning.

14 Q. Witness S, if I can stop you there for a moment.

15 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, to respond to the Defence objection at

16 this point, I think it is clear - I submit that it is clear - from the

17 witness's testimony just now that we are talking, indeed, about hearsay.

18 It appears to be a statement that, according to the witness, Tuta made to,

19 among others, Baja, and then Baja relating to this witness.

20 So there's no dispute that we're talking about, essentially, if

21 you will, two steps, but I don't think more than that. And we do think

22 it's proper, under the Tribunal's rather liberal views toward hearsay, and

23 with the professional Judges on the Bench, that the Chamber should hear

24 this evidence.

25 JUDGE LIU: I think it will be the job of the Judges to evaluate

Page 2530

1 the weight of those evidence.

2 MR. SCOTT: Yes, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

4 MR. SCOTT:

5 Q. Witness S, a few minutes ago, you mentioned the Benko Penavic ATG,

6 and you learned about this time that this was Baja's unit. Is that

7 correct, just to bring us back to that point?

8 A. No problem, but let me correct you. It isn't an anti-terrorist

9 brigade, it's an anti-terrorist group.

10 Q. My apology if I misspoke.

11 You mentioned a few moments ago now there was another ATG that was

12 headed by another person in Mostar. And who was that, again?

13 A. I will repeat it once again. The chief commander of the Benko

14 Penavic anti-terrorist group was Mario Milicevic, Baja. And this other

15 anti-terrorist group was commanded by Stela.

16 Q. Now, with Stela's ATG, did you know any names associated with that

17 unit, other than -- not Stela's personal name, but was it known by any

18 other names?

19 A. Well, around the town, they knew them first as Stelici, Little

20 Stelas, calling it after its commander Stela. Also among others, it was

21 known as ATG Mrmak.

22 Q. If we can go forward, please, that same evening, let me direct

23 your attention to about 3.00 the next morning. Can you tell us if

24 anything happened then; and if so, what?

25 A. I think that I should go back, go further back before that 3.00 in

Page 2531

1 the morning. That is, that evening when I learned what was to happen the

2 next morning, Baja also said then that -- he asked us to hand over our

3 personal weapons, but Baja also offered to protect us, us and our

4 families, and said that my brother and this pal of ours and I could, if we

5 wanted, go to his place that night, that he would absolutely guarantee our

6 safety, and that he would take care that none of the other units came to

7 the street on which we lived.

8 And I and my brother and this pal of ours, of course, accepted it,

9 because we -- at that time, we saw it as the only way out, that is, to

10 keep our heads on our shoulders.

11 And then that morning, around 3.00, that is, when the attack

12 started on the 9th of May, Zeljko Martinovic, called Zelja, came to his

13 house. He is a relative of Vinko Martinovic, Vina. There was also

14 another guy -- I can't say a guy, really. He was a middle-aged sort of

15 man, Zubac, who was quite a prominent -- the most prominent man amongst

16 us. He had a Mercedes; he had lots of money.

17 And Stela was there in the street -- no, I have to say that I did

18 not see Stela with my own eyes, but I was inside. I was in the room, and

19 they were standing on the balcony right out of the room. They were all

20 standing there. They kept going out and coming in and taking weapons that

21 were in the flat, and there were all sorts of weapons. There were even

22 some weapons that I had never seen before. And I recognised Stela because

23 he has a specific manner of speech.

24 I do not think there is another man on earth who speaks the same

25 way, a specific voice. And there was also -- no, Zelja Martinovic was the

Page 2532

1 one who told me that they would all come in their own cars, that they were

2 about to leave soon because the action was about to begin.

3 Q. Witness S, I'm going to stop you there for a moment, before you

4 get too far. You have gone on for some time now, as I asked you to.

5 Can you please go back. In the transcript, there is a reference

6 to Bija, B-i-j-a. Can you tell us, all these events you've told us just

7 now about just now, just to be clear, where were you again, and make sure

8 we have the correct spelling. At whose house were you that you

9 described -- where you're describing all these events?

10 A. In Baja house. B-A-J-A.

11 Q. So you've told us, so it's clear, you don't recall, correct me if

12 I am wrong, just so the record is clear, you don't recall seeing Stela,

13 but you recognised his voice. Is that what you're telling us?

14 A. That's right. That's what I said, and I can explain it to you.

15 For the past eight years, it could be two a day since I left Mostar,

16 through all this time, I have been seeing these pictures in my head, and I

17 know exactly what happened, when it happened, how it happened. And I

18 really did not -- could not wish such a thing -- such experience on

19 anyone.

20 But I did hear Stela; I did hear Stela's voice. There is no doubt

21 about that. Perhaps I wouldn't be able to tell what I had for lunch

22 yesterday, but these things, I do know.

23 Q. All right. Witness S, I'm going to try to move us a bit forward.

24 We do need to move a little bit along because of time.

25 Tell us -- take us further in the story where you are now. Take

Page 2533

1 us further there. You see weapons being loaded into cars. What happened

2 after that?

3 A. Well, they all left. I really do not know where they went. Only

4 Baja's father stayed with us. He had the same nickname. Funny, that. He

5 was there to keep us, I don't know, to keep us company, to give us some

6 comfort or what. And then at 5 minutes past 5.00, gunfire started all

7 over the place. It was not normal. I had been a soldier until then. I

8 had spent 13 or 14 months as a soldier and being told the possible front

9 lines facing the Serbs, but such an attack, such artillery, no, I don't

10 think that even in a film they ever made anything like that.

11 They were using all possible means of artillery. There were tanks

12 and mortars and rocket launchers. I could recognise them. And there were

13 all sorts of calibres. There were PAMs, the anti-aircraft machine-guns.

14 There was one such over Baja's house where we were. And I don't know. I

15 am really at a loss of words to describe that horror, that hell which

16 started at 5 of 5.00.

17 Q. Witness S, let me just take you on. You're back at Baja's house.

18 What happened next?

19 A. Well, I don't know. A couple of hours may have gone by from that

20 initial strike, and then the first one to return was Zeljko Martinovic,

21 Zelja. And I was very much under the weather, because he was with a man

22 whose name was Neven, and that was the first time in my life I had seen

23 such a disgusting man. He was crying, weeping. He could not justify his

24 actions. He started shouting first. He put his fist in the door frame.

25 He took his rifle, started hitting it against a wall. I was really

Page 2534

1 surprised because Zelja was a well-respected man in the city. He drove

2 motorbikes. We thought he was a tough guy who could not be defeated by

3 anything. And when I saw how he showed his rage, his sorrow. He talked

4 about murders. He talked about abuses, about beatings, expulsions,

5 roundings up of men of -- in the stadium.

6 It's very hard for me to talk about all this.

7 Q. Did this Zelja identify any particular persons who were engaged in

8 the conduct that you described just now?

9 A. Excuse me just a moment, please.

10 He mentioned Stela. He mentioned some men from Livno. He

11 mentioned Baja.

12 Q. Witness S, I'm sorry for the discomfort you're obviously feeling.

13 Can you tell us, please, what was said about Stela, in particular,

14 if you're able to.

15 A. Well, Zelja said that he had known Stela since he was a little

16 boy. And he couldn't believe that Stela could be so cruel, that Stela had

17 metamorphosed to a beast and that he couldn't believe it, and I looked at

18 him. I couldn't expect to hear something like that from him.

19 Q. Did he say anything specific about what he had seen Stela do?

20 A. Yes. He talked about a unit from Livno. I still don't know what

21 its name is.

22 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter apologises.

23 A. I know what his name is, Ante Bruno Busic, and how they pulled out

24 of a flat Nedzo Huskovic --

25 JUDGE LIU: Yes, I saw Mr. Seric standing.

Page 2535

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Page 2536

1 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have an objection.

2 I'm objecting both to the question and to the answer of this witness,

3 because this goes beyond the scope of the indictment. Namely,

4 Nedzad Huskovic's murder is not one of the charges against my client, nor

5 the events the witness is beginning to testify about, and it is not in

6 those counts which our learned friend indicated to the Chamber as the

7 counts that this witness would testify about. Nedzad Huskovic's murder is

8 presently a case heard in a court in Mostar against completely different

9 persons.

10 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President --

11 JUDGE LIU: Yes, I just want to say maybe it's time for a break.

12 And we notice that your witness is under emotional stress.

13 MR. SCOTT: Yes, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE LIU: And as for the questions and answers, we are not quite

15 sure where you are going to direct us. Maybe you could give us an

16 explanation after the break.

17 MR. SCOTT: After the break, thank you, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. We will adjourn until 11.30.

19 --- Recess taken at 10.59 a.m.

20 --- On resuming at 11.32 a.m.

21 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Scott.

22 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, I don't want to belabour this point too

23 much, and we are anxious to finish this witness, but we submit that the

24 evidence on this Nedzad Huskovic is indeed relevant and proper for the

25 Chamber to hear, to receive. In the indictment, Mr. Martinovic is charged

Page 2537

1 with a wide range of behaviour constituting, among other things,

2 persecution.

3 In paragraph 33, he is charged that both accused repeatedly

4 tortured detainees, caused severe physical and mental suffering, was

5 intentionally inflicted on Bosnian Muslims.

6 It goes on in paragraph 34 that both of these accused, throughout

7 this time period, planned, instigated, ordered, or committed a campaign of

8 widespread or systematic persecutions of Bosnian Muslims.

9 In paragraph 45, it says both accused and their subordinates

10 tortured or wilfully caused great suffering to Bosnian Muslim civilians

11 and prisoners of war, severe physical and mental suffering was

12 intentionally inflicted.

13 Paragraph 50 also we believe is relevant, and paragraph 54 we also

14 believe is relevant. We also believe it is relevant to the accused's

15 state of mind as to purposes and his motivation in carrying out various

16 acts. We certainly don't intend to offer extensive evidence on this

17 point. In fact, it will be just one or two questions and answers. But we

18 believe the Chamber should receive it.

19 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Mr. Seric.

20 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my apologies for taking a

21 little bit more of your time, but I need to notify the Trial Chamber on

22 the situation in which we find ourselves and anticipating the issues which

23 have been foreshadowed by the Prosecutor.

24 We had a first-hand witness regarding the incident which had been

25 announced by the Prosecutor. There is a first-hand eyewitness who, before

Page 2538

1 this Tribunal, gave evidence on the 27 July of this year, Witness F, who

2 does not mention this incident, nor was he questioned about the fate of

3 Nedzad Huskovic. And now the Prosecution is bringing this second-hand

4 witness, even though during the deposition phase, we had an opportunity to

5 hear from a first-hand witness about this incident.

6 The Prosecution did not question Witness F on this incident, even

7 though they had a statement of this witness of 15 January, 1996 pertaining

8 to the persecution of the Huskovic family and the murder of Nedzad

9 Huskovic. And I said, there are trial going on against completely

10 different persons regarding this incident. It is now incomprehensible to

11 ask that through this witness, where we had Witness F in the courtroom and

12 members of the Huskovic families, who are also witnesses to this, it is

13 incomprehensible to us that they are bringing this witness to testify, to

14 give evidence about this. Thank you.

15 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, I think that's a completely separate

16 objection, of course. One, apparently, was beyond the scope, and now we

17 are being told that it's not the appropriate witness. To be perfectly

18 honest, I don't question counsel's representations on the testimony of a

19 deposition witness except to say, off the top of our heads, Mr. Stringer

20 and I don't recall that situation with Witness F. And Witness F, in fact,

21 was Mr. Stringer's witness during the depositions. And we just don't

22 recall that. But counsel may be perfectly right.

23 In any event, we believe that it's proper for the Court to receive

24 this evidence for as far as it goes. And again, it's going to be one or

25 two questions, and we can hopefully finish this witness.

Page 2539

1 JUDGE LIU: Well, from this witness, we heard a lot of hearsay

2 evidence up to now. And sometimes it's very difficult for the Judges to

3 know whether these questions are relevant or not at the very beginning.

4 But we hope that the Prosecutor could bear in mind the objections from --

5 raised by Mr. Seric and direct us to the direct incident.

6 MR. SCOTT: All right. Thank you, Mr. President.

7 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

8 MR. SCOTT: I'll try. If we become bogged down in this, I'll tell

9 the Chamber now, I will simply move on.

10 Q. Witness S, please, before the break, you were telling us about

11 this Zelja had come back to Baja's house where you still were and was very

12 upset about some things that he had witnessed. Now, can you tell us just

13 very briefly, and I do want you please to tell us specifically about this

14 item now, do you recall being told about something that had happened to

15 this man Nedzo?

16 A. It was like this: You need to understand one thing. Nedzo was

17 mentioned there, and it was mentioned how Nedzo was killed. A myriad of

18 details were mentioned and I cannot keep them all in my head, but you also

19 need to understand me that at that moment, when one is afraid for one's

20 own life, I simply don't know who is saying what.

21 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, in light of that, we'll pass on, unless

22 the Court has questions -- unless the Chamber has questions.

23 JUDGE CLARK: Just, if I go back a little bit, do you remember in

24 the morning when you were about to ask this witness, quite early on, I

25 think your question was, Please tell me who was Tuta. And then there was

Page 2540

1 a Defence objection, and we went on. You never actually went back to that

2 question.

3 MR. SCOTT: You're right, Your Honour, I can go back if you'd

4 like.

5 Q. Witness, I think your testimony was, and please correct me, that

6 when these men came into the restaurant that evening, it was related to

7 you that Tuta -- someone named Tuta had ordered certain things. And I

8 believe you said this was the first time you had heard the name Tuta.

9 Now, is that correct?

10 A. Yes, that is correct. I actually asked, Who is this Tuta? That's

11 how I put it. And Baja then told me briefly that it was a person who came

12 from abroad and, if I recall exactly, that he had come from South

13 America. That is the first time that I encountered the name of Tuta.

14 Q. And if it might assist Judge Clark, can you tell us anything more

15 around that time? In the days immediately following the evening of 8 May

16 1993, did you hear anything more about Tuta or come to know who this

17 person was?

18 A. It turned out that Tuta was a man who, for the most part, led

19 these two anti-terrorist groups that were considered elite units. And

20 these two units, I'm sure of that, were under -- under -- they were not

21 under any command from Mostar. In other words, no command out of Mostar

22 came to those units.

23 If you really want me to tell you how many times I've met Tuta and

24 how I came to know how he looked, this was during a funeral of a young man

25 named Zeljko Velc where I saw Tuta for the first time during that

Page 2541

1 funeral. And a friend of mine told me, What is Tuta doing?

2 Q. Witness S, my apologies. You got a bit ahead of us, which is

3 fine. But can you tell the Chamber, did you hear -- at this funeral, did

4 you hear Tuta say anything to anybody?

5 A. Yes. I was standing right behind Tuta and Baja, who were standing

6 next to each other, and I heard Tuta say to Baja, "What were you doing in

7 that part of town? What am I going to tell Zagreb?" And Baja just

8 shrugged. But by that time, they had a salvo for the -- in honour of the

9 fallen soldier, Zeljko, who I knew from the primary school.

10 Q. And did you hear any other part of the conversation between Tuta

11 and Baja after that?

12 A. No, no. I left after that.

13 Q. And did you --

14 A. I left the cemetery.

15 Q. And after that, did you see Tuta personally - I don't mean

16 necessarily on TV or something - did you ever see Tuta personally again

17 after that?

18 A. No. I'm not 100 per cent sure. Perhaps somewhere else, but I'm

19 not sure about that.

20 Q. All right. Witness S, if we can go back now to the 9th of May,

21 please. Can you tell us, later that day or in the days following the 9th

22 of May, did you learn or could you see the status or condition, if you

23 will, of any of the mosques in Mostar?

24 A. Yes. At that time I was still at Baja's house around 10.00 when

25 the Balinovac mosque was blown up. That was a huge explosion. I'm not an

Page 2542

1 expert in it, but I don't know how much explosive was set -- was used

2 there. But it was an enormous explosion, and you had pieces of stone

3 flying around. I may have been about 200 metres in a straight line from

4 the mosque at that time.

5 Q. One moment. This particular mosque, can you tell -- if you

6 remember, can you tell us: Had that mosque been previously damaged or

7 injured in some way during the time of the fighting with the Serbs or had

8 that particular mosque been in reasonably good condition prior to the time

9 that you say it was exploded?

10 A. Until that morning, the mosque was perhaps damaged only by several

11 bullets. Maybe a shell may have fallen nearby, but it was not any kind of

12 damage that couldn't be repaired. But in fact this explosion destroyed

13 the mosque.

14 Q. All right. Now, in addition to that mosque, can you tell us

15 again, did you see around that time any other mosques that were damaged or

16 destroyed around that time?

17 A. Well, the Serbs had damaged several mosques. There were several

18 mosques that had the top of minarets missing. But the same day when the

19 Balinovac mosque was destroyed, there was another one destroyed which was

20 in the neighbourhood called "Podhum," which is only a few hundred metres

21 from the former -- from the line that was to be drawn there, and it was

22 also blown up like the Balinovac mosque.

23 Q. All right. Now, Witness, I want to take you forward. Some days

24 after these events, did you become engaged again in some military unit?

25 A. I did not understand what it meant, to be active. But I was in

Page 2543

1 fear. I did not know how to avoid all that. I just wanted to leave this

2 town, but it was impossible. So I rejoined the 4th Battalion at that

3 point, and I was assigned to the platoon whose commander was Gaga. They

4 went by the name "Blue Boys." They had some blue arm bands.

5 Q. Now, Witness, I'm going to ask you, because there may be some

6 question, I imagine, in the courtroom: Why at this time, as a Bosniak or

7 Muslim, after what you've just told us, did you engage yourself with an

8 HVO unit?

9 A. There were several reasons. I need to be frank. The first and

10 foremost for me was to get some kind of documents so that I can move about

11 freely in town, so that I can protect my family, to find -- to figure out

12 a way to get out of the whole situation. And perhaps you will not

13 understand this fully, but I never have - and I don't now - hated anyone,

14 Croats or Serbs. I have no reason for it, because I think that we were

15 just instruments in the hands of some people who had the power to

16 manipulate us.

17 Q. Well, I'm afraid that begs the next question. Who do you think

18 was manipulating you?

19 A. Well, we were manipulated by people, and this is -- somebody may

20 take exception, but I think that people like Tuta played a part in this.

21 I have to point this out, because I know Stela very well and I think that

22 he, too, was manipulated. I don't know. I can't explain. I don't know

23 what goes through someone's mind. I regret that things like this have

24 happened and that many people -- and the way they did it. It all could

25 have been resolved in another way.

Page 2544

1 Q. All right. Witness S, I think we're going to have to move on. I

2 apologise to the Chamber, perhaps, but time is going by. I'm trying my

3 best to move us forward.

4 Now, let me ask you, Witness S, in the time that you then became

5 again in the 4th Battalion, can you tell us where in Mostar -- after this

6 time and until you left Mostar in the latter part of September, can you

7 tell us where you were positioned in your military role?

8 A. My first and primary task was to be at the Bulevar in

9 Dr. Aleksic's house, which was literally across the street from the Health

10 Centre in Mostar. On several occasions, I was in other locations but only

11 for assistance, but in the area under control of the 4th Battalion, the

12 Tihomir Misic Battalion. But for the most part, it was in Dr. Aleksic's

13 house.

14 MR. SCOTT: I believe the name, Your Honours, is spelled

15 A-l-e-k-c-i-c.

16 Q. Is that correct, Witness?

17 A. It's Aleksic.

18 Q. Yes, very well.

19 You just mentioned a moment ago that this was across from -- I

20 believe you said it was across from the Health Centre. Is that correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And did you have any understanding during this time whose -- what

23 military unit, its leader, had that area under their responsibility, that

24 part of the confrontation line which included the Health Centre? Who was

25 responsible for that area?

Page 2545

1 A. Well, the Health Centre itself was covered by the ATG Mrmak and

2 another one. Sometimes there was one; there were both. Then sometimes we

3 were to go over there and be with them. It depended on the day. But

4 those two units were the ones that were deployed at the Health Centre.

5 Q. All right. Witness S, with the usher's assistance, I'm going to

6 hand you a clean copy -- when I say "clean," no markings on it -- of

7 Exhibit P11.18. If you could look at that and if it could be put on the

8 ELMO, please.

9 MR. SCOTT: I think the easiest way to deal with this,

10 Mr. President, if everyone just has it on the ELMO rather than

11 distributing multiple copies.

12 Q. Now, what I'd like you to do, if you can, Witness -- if we could

13 make that, please, as clear as possible.

14 Can you show us, first of all, approximately where Dr. Aleksic's

15 house was located; approximately where you were positioned during this

16 time?

17 A. There is a little problem here. I can barely read what is -- the

18 words on this, from this screen.

19 Q. Perhaps if you have another copy ahead you, right in front of you,

20 it may be more clear than trying to read off the ELMO.

21 A. This would be the Health Centre. Directly across was

22 Dr. Aleksic's house.

23 Q. If you could be handed a marker, please. Would you mark -- first

24 of all, mark the Health Centre. Perhaps make that 1. And then mark your

25 position 2.

Page 2546

1 Now, can you also help by assisting us by showing -- let me ask

2 you this first: During this time, the summer of 1993, did you have

3 occasion to be at or nearby Stela's headquarters, or the headquarters of

4 this ATG that you say Stela was the commander of?

5 A. You want me to point at the house where the unit was stationed?

6 Q. Yes, Witness, but we're doing this in two parts. First, answer my

7 question. Were you, during this time, at or about this location where

8 Stela's headquarters was located?

9 A. Yes, I went past it every day.

10 Q. Can you show us, please, on Exhibit P11.18 where that headquarters

11 was located.

12 A. Up here on the corner here.

13 Q. Mark that, please, with a number 3.

14 And the last marking I'm going to ask you to make for now, unless

15 the Chamber has questions, can you also mark where Baja's ATG, where his

16 headquarters were, if you know.

17 A. It's here, on this corner here.

18 Q. Will you mark that, please, with a number 4.

19 All right. Now, around this time -- that's all we're going to

20 have at this moment about the ELMO. Thank you, Usher.

21 Did you know under whose command -- and I'll ask you how -- but

22 did you know under whose command the -- Stela's ATG was, I mean other than

23 Stela? Who, above Stela, was in command of that unit?

24 A. It was Tuta, as far as I know.

25 Q. And again, I'll come back to the how in just a moment, but do you

Page 2547

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Page 2548

1 know who was over Baja's ATG? Who was next up in the chain of command

2 above Baja?

3 A. Tuta again.

4 Q. Now, can you please tell the Chamber, what do you base your

5 answers on, that they were both under Tuta's control?

6 A. Well, to begin with, there are two reasons how which I know that.

7 First, a day before the attack, Baja himself said that Tuta had issued the

8 order. And secondly, because my brother was a member of the Benko Penavic

9 ATG.

10 Q. And that was -- just so we're clear, that was Baja's unit?

11 A. That's right.

12 Q. Did you ever, in the course of the summer of 1993, hear Stela say

13 anything about who his commander was?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Did you ever hear any other HVO officers give orders to Stela in

16 Mostar during that time?

17 A. No, I'm sure about this, because once there was a meeting in my

18 unit. We could ask why did we have to subordinate ourselves to what

19 secret Stela's men were doing, and they told us we had no right to ask

20 such questions, because he -- they could not decide what they would do,

21 Baja and Stela, and that it all came from Tuta.

22 Q. Did you ever witness Stela resist taking orders from another HVO

23 officer during this time?

24 A. I really cannot recall that. I do not want to say -- to talk

25 about something that I do not remember.

Page 2549

1 Q. Very well. Let's go forward.

2 Do you know anything about a conversation between Stela -- and

3 I'll, again, be very clear -- and this other Vinko Martinovic, Vina,

4 during June or July 1993? And if there was such a conversation, will you

5 tell the Chamber about that.

6 A. Well, I remember an action in which Baja's and Stela's men were to

7 cross to the other side. I cannot tell you exactly when or where, but my

8 friend and I were told that it would be good if we came out on top of one

9 of those high, tall buildings near the Bulevar and to man the mortars, and

10 that we did that because we had nothing to object to it. But Vina, after

11 Stela left, Vina warned us that we had to mind our steps and take care of

12 what we were doing because the war would be over one day.

13 Q. All right. Witness, I'm only going to ask you about this once,

14 and if you don't recall, I'll move further on. Do you remember any

15 conversation between Stela and Vina about the use of mortars?

16 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Meek.

17 MR. MEEK: Your Honour, may it please the Court, this is a very

18 leading and suggestive question, there's no question about it, and I

19 strongly object.

20 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Seric.

21 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] The same objection, Your Honour.

22 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour --

23 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Scott, I think it's some sort of leading

24 question.

25 MR. SCOTT: It is, Your Honour.

Page 2550

1 JUDGE LIU: Maybe you could rephrase your question in a certain

2 way.

3 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, it is leading. I admit that. I'm trying

4 to refresh just a bit the witness's memory. I'm not sure why Mr. Meek is

5 objecting, because it has nothing to do with his client. But in any

6 event, you're absolutely right, I am trying to see if I can prompt the

7 witness's memory. If he doesn't remember -- I can ask that one final

8 question. If he doesn't remember, I assure the Chamber I will move to the

9 next topic.

10 Q. Witness, I know there's a lot of things in your mind and you're

11 telling us a lot of things. Do you remember a conversation between Stela

12 and Vina about the use of mortars?

13 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Seric.

14 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I think that this

15 question, now that you heard it and when you read it in the transcript,

16 you will see how leading it is. It speaks for itself. There is not even

17 any need for me to object because it is so obviously leading. I,

18 nevertheless, have to object because that is my job.

19 MR. SCOTT: It is leading, Your Honour. There's no dispute about

20 it. It is leading.

21 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Meek.

22 MR. MEEK: May it please the Trial Chamber, my learned friend from

23 the other side does not understand why I object. I must tell this

24 Honourable Trial Chamber I object because the Prosecutor has alleged that

25 my client is in some superior position to Mr. Martinovic. If the

Page 2551

1 Prosecutor wishes to drop that allegation, then I will remain seated.

2 Thank you, Your Honour.

3 MR. SCOTT: Well, Mr. President, on that point, I'll accept

4 counsel's position on that.

5 JUDGE LIU: Okay. You may continue.

6 MR. SCOTT:

7 Q. Witness, I hope you remember the question, and that's the only

8 question I'm going to put to you about this. Do you remember a

9 conversation about the use of mortars?

10 JUDGE CLARK: Mr. Scott, three times the Defence has objected to

11 your putting the question, and three times you put exactly the same

12 question.

13 MR. SCOTT: Yes.

14 JUDGE CLARK: You cannot ask a leading question. Put it another

15 way: "Do you remember any conversations which are relevant to the issues

16 in the trial today?" And if he says, "No," you move on. You cannot keep

17 asking an absolutely flagrantly leading question.

18 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, that's the first ruling. I did not

19 understand that. My apology. I thought I had been given leeway by the

20 President to pursue it, and I said, "Yes, it absolutely is leading." I

21 never made a contention about that, but I was trying to prompt the

22 witness's memory. I did not know that was the Chamber's ruling. If that

23 is the Chamber's ruling, I will in fact, indeed, restate my question.

24 JUDGE CLARK: Thank you.

25 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Seric. Do you have anything to add?

Page 2552

1 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Not add. I want to repeat that the

2 question had been repeated three times, the witness heard it, and I think

3 you should prohibit him to answer that same question.

4 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, I'll move on. We've now unfortunately

5 spent some minutes on this. Apparently, there was some misunderstanding.

6 My apology to Judge Clark. I wasn't flagrantly disregarding the Chamber's

7 ruling. I hope you understand. Apparently, there was some

8 misunderstanding. I'll move on.

9 JUDGE LIU: Okay, you'll move on.

10 MR. SCOTT:

11 Q. Now, can you tell us -- we're changing topics, Witness S, just so

12 we can try to move forward. Were you familiar with situations where

13 Muslim prisoners would be brought to the confrontation line in Mostar to

14 perform various tasks?

15 JUDGE CLARK: That's another leading question.

16 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, it's only directing to the next topic of

17 testimony. I don't know or think I can just simply ask him, "What

18 happened next in the history of the war?"

19 JUDGE CLARK: "Did you observe any prisoners?" "What happened to

20 those prisoners?"

21 MR. SCOTT: We can do it that way, Your Honour, of course.

22 Q. Witness S, did you see any prisoners during the time that you were

23 positioned in the doctor's house that you told us about a moment ago?

24 MR. MEEK: May it please the Trial Chamber.

25 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Meek.

Page 2553

1 MR. MEEK: I don't mean to take up any more of the Trial Chamber's

2 time, but I believe that when the Prosecutor asks these leading questions

3 and there is discussion with the Trial Chamber from Defence counsel, from

4 the Prosecutor, I believe it's inappropriate for the witness to be

5 listening to our conversations and having them translated into his

6 language, because it then further keys him in to what the Prosecutor wants

7 him to answer. And I don't believe that is fair. I just want to bring

8 that to the Trial Chamber's attention.

9 JUDGE LIU: So what do you suggest?

10 MR. MEEK: I suggest that when either counsel for the Prosecutor

11 or the Defence raises an objection, that any witness be ordered by the

12 Trial Chamber to take off the headphones, because when the witness hears

13 what we are discussing, the witness knows what the Prosecutor wants him to

14 answer in the leading nature of the questions. I don't know, I'm just

15 bringing this to the Trial Chamber's attention.

16 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Seric.

17 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] I should like to second Mr. Meek's

18 suggestion, because if the question has been asked repeatedly, even if the

19 Prosecutor moves on to another question, nevertheless the witness, within

20 the framework of the preparations which any witness has and which are

21 quite all right, the witness then has the opportunity to go back to that

22 and to answer that even if he's not asked about that, because that

23 previous question was leading. He nevertheless can go back to that and

24 answer that particular question.

25 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Meek, do you have anything to add, anything more?

Page 2554

1 MR. MEEK: I do, Mr. President. Very briefly, it is my

2 understanding - and I think Mr. Stringer will concur in this - it is my

3 understanding that during the deposition proceedings in late July and

4 early August, that this was the procedure adopted by the Presiding

5 Officer; that when objections were made, the witness was not allowed to

6 hear the discussions between the counsel and the arguments as to why it

7 was an objectionable question or why it was not. I believe that was the

8 procedure. That's my understanding. Thank you.

9 JUDGE LIU: Well, thank you very much for providing us with this

10 information. But from my experience in this Tribunal, I've never come

11 across this kind of issue before, so the only thing I could do is to

12 consult with my colleagues on this matter at some later stage. Probably

13 we could give you a proper answer later.

14 MR. SCOTT:

15 Q. All right. Witness S, during the time that you were positioned in

16 the doctor's house, as you indicated on the map a few minutes ago, did you

17 observe any prisoners?

18 A. Yes, I did, almost daily.

19 Q. And what did you see?

20 A. Well, prisoners were brought usually in the morning and made to

21 dig trenches, fill bags with sand, and they were even directly exposed to

22 the fire from the other side. I was a -- I witnessed the deaths of two

23 prisoners for that particular reason. And in talking with those

24 prisoners, because I was to guard them, I was made responsible there, I

25 could feel their fear. Once, I was ordered by Stela himself, who said,

Page 2555

1 "Mind not to give -- mind giving them nothing to eat or anything," and

2 they'd kill me if any one of them escaped.

3 Q. Did the unit that you were part of, that is the 4th Battalion, did

4 the 4th Battalion ever have prisoners used on the confrontation line?

5 A. Yes, we had prisoners there every day, but I can tell you one

6 thing: It is one thing to have a prisoner and treat him humanely, that

7 is, give him food and water and protect him against gunfire, because why

8 should he get killed? And it is another matter to order that regardless

9 of circumstances, that men are not allowed to eat or drink or seek shelter

10 from possible gunfire.

11 Q. Did you have any conversations with any of these Muslim prisoners

12 during this time, that is, again, approximately the summer of 1993?

13 A. We talked with them all the time, not only I, all the others. We

14 were all quite young and barely aware of what was going on around us. We

15 gave them to eat -- we didn't have much either, but we shared with them

16 bread or some pate, and we were not really aware of what is going on. And

17 we were told that they were happiest when they were in our area, in our

18 territory, because they felt again like human beings.

19 And I can add that once we seized the opportunity -- because there

20 was none of Stela's or Baja's men there, we seized the opportunity and

21 took one of the prisoners to his home so he could see his wife and

22 children, and allowed him to take some food back with him so he would have

23 something to eat when he went back to the camp, to the Heliodrom.

24 Q. During these conversations you've just identified, did the

25 prisoners say anything to you about any particular HVO commander on whose

Page 2556

1 part of the line they did not want to work?

2 A. Well, there were a number of them who repeated that they were

3 afraid to work on segments or sections of the line where Stela was in

4 command, and they were afraid, in fear for their lives. And they were

5 afraid that that could be the last day in their lives if they went to that

6 section of the front line.

7 Q. All right. Witness S, directing you a bit forward, can you tell

8 us, was there a time when you became engaged, you and perhaps some of your

9 co-soldiers, with leading a particular group of prisoners to a particular

10 location.

11 A. Yes, I was present. I just can't remember when could that be. I

12 just can't remember, and I really tried hard to remember the time, and I

13 just couldn't.

14 But it so happened that in all that disarray and fear, that we

15 received an order through our communications man - I don't know who it

16 came from - that prisoners had to be taken somewhere. Those prisoners

17 were waiting for us at the outpatient clinic. That was the building

18 which, before the war, was the lung disease hospital, and during the war,

19 it was used to accommodate people with mental disorders.

20 Q. All right. Now, Witness S, just so there's no confusion, there

21 has already been a mention, and you've marked on the map, the street map,

22 a place called the Health Centre. Is this the -- are you talking now

23 about the Health Centre or some other medical-related facility?

24 A. About a different medical facility. It was about 250 metres

25 behind the front line across the park called Liska where a number of men

Page 2557

1 killed during the Serb aggression were buried.

2 Q. Tell us what happened next specifically with this group of

3 prisoners. Witness S, please stick on the story, this particular part of

4 your testimony on these prisoners, because I'm afraid we do have to

5 conclude your testimony, at least direct examination, reasonably soon.

6 Forgive me for saying so, but just tell us what happened with this

7 particular group of prisoners.

8 A. We were told that we had to go to fetch them and bring them to the

9 Health Centre, this other hospital. That is the place where Stela had

10 control. And that was to be our only task then. So we went to get those

11 men, and they had in their hands those -- something like backpacks. I

12 didn't know what was in them. And so we took them down there, turned them

13 over to them, and my colleague and I stayed behind perhaps 5 or

14 6 metres -- no, perhaps it was 10 metres; I don't know -- away from the

15 sandbags that were across -- that had been placed across the street

16 between the Health Centre and those tall buildings shielding the view

17 towards the Bulevar.

18 Q. All right, Witness S. Let's move forward.

19 MR. SCOTT: I'll tell the Chamber, Mr. President, I'm going to

20 come back to the chart, the diagram, in a few minutes to be more specific

21 on these locations. But I would like just to proceed with the narrative

22 first, if I may.

23 Q. So you gathered these prisoners, you took them up to a place

24 having something to do with some sandbags. What happened next?

25 A. They were ordered to put on uniforms, to get out uniforms from

Page 2558

1 those backpacks; that is, there were uniforms in those backpacks. They

2 were told to put them on and sit behind the sandbags that were in the

3 street and just stay put there. There were quite a number of people

4 there.

5 Q. Who ordered them to put on these camouflage uniforms?

6 A. Stela.

7 Q. When you brought this group of prisoners to that location you've

8 told us about, did Stela say anything to you?

9 A. Yes. This was one of the sentences which made me leave the city.

10 It was pronounced so many times that I simply couldn't bear it any

11 longer. When he saw me coming between those buildings, he yelled at me

12 and said, What's this, a balija leading balijas?

13 Q. What happened next?

14 A. And there were quite a number of soldiers whom I had never seen

15 before and faces unknown to me. And I knew that something was in the

16 offing, but I didn't know what. And then they were distributed imitation

17 rifles. I didn't quite realise they were imitation because I was some

18 distance from it, and they looked like real rifles to me. And they were

19 then told to cross over there, and they had to go to the other side.

20 And one prisoner asked Stela to spare him because he had a wife

21 and children, and he replied something like, Don't you worry about them.

22 I'll take good care of them. And those soldiers whom I had seen there for

23 the first time began literally to throw those prisoners over those

24 sandbags, and then the gunfire ensued.

25 Q. Witness S, I'm going to stop you there for a moment. You said a

Page 2559

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Page 2560

1 moment ago they were distributed imitation rifles, and then it says, "They

2 were then told to cross over there." Who told them to cross over there?

3 A. It was Stela and another guy. I don't know where he came from.

4 He was worse than Stela to me, to my mind at that point, but I really

5 don't know who that was.

6 MR. SCOTT: I'm going to ask the witness be shown what's been

7 marked as Exhibit P878. It's going to be handed out now, Mr. President.

8 It's not -- it was not yet in the binders, I don't believe. It's P878.

9 It's two pages, Your Honours, and I apologise for -- I'm not sure. For

10 whatever reason, it's not stapled together, but two pages. If that could

11 be shown to the witness, please.

12 Q. Witness S, can you tell us what this document is that has just

13 been put in front of you, P878?

14 A. Well, this could be a drawing of the front line, roughly, and some

15 places marked as presumably being more important.

16 Q. Well, do you recognise any of the markings or handwriting on 878

17 as your own?

18 A. Yes. I drew that.

19 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, just so there's no mystery about this,

20 this is a diagram that was attached to his witness statement, a diagram

21 that he drew in connection with being interviewed by the Office of the

22 Prosecutor.

23 Q. Can you tell us, please -- if you could just take us through the

24 numbers. You have a number "1" toward the lower left corner of the page.

25 What was number 1, what is at that location?

Page 2561

1 A. That is where the Health Centre was and Stela's unit.

2 Q. And what is marked as number 2?

3 A. That is the location where the doctor's house was, where I stood

4 guard, so to say.

5 Q. All right. I'm going to -- other counsel can certainly inquire,

6 if they wish to, but I'm going to skip over a couple of locations. It's

7 not directly related to this part of your testimony. You also have a

8 marking number 5. What is that?

9 A. Those were sandbags, that is, the street and the sandbags which

10 made up the cover between points 1 and 2.

11 Q. And can you tell us, you also then finally have a marking number

12 6. What does that represent?

13 A. That is approximately where I was standing when I had brought

14 those prisoners from the outpatient clinic.

15 Q. All right. Now, you took us up -- in the narrative up to the

16 point where you said some of the soldiers, the HVO soldiers, were actually

17 throwing these prisoners, then, in camouflage uniforms with imitation

18 rifles, throwing them over the sandbags. What happened next?

19 A. Fire was exchanged between the two sides. I had crossed over to

20 the other side of the street by that time. So the fire was coming also

21 from the Muslim side as well as from this side, so that the prisoners

22 found themselves in a crossfire, and I saw several of them being hit. I

23 don't know if they were killed or just wounded, but it was a bad

24 experience.

25 Q. Could you see Stela during that time?

Page 2562

1 A. Yes. Yeah, he was also firing.

2 Q. And could you tell who he was firing at?

3 A. I don't know who he was shooting at. There were only the

4 prisoners were there. I don't know if anybody would have stuck their head

5 out from the other side to be shot at. So it was obvious at whom he was

6 shooting. At the prisoners.

7 Q. Were you able to see what kind of weapon Stela was firing at this

8 time?

9 A. Yes. It was a small rifle used by tank crews. I think it was a

10 Scorpion.

11 Q. Well, from what you could see -- were you back in the doctor's

12 house, site number 2, at the time you were watching this, or where were

13 you?

14 A. No, I was on the other side of the street, behind these sandbags.

15 Q. I'm sorry. How far away were you from Stela when you saw this?

16 A. I don't know, maybe 10, 15 metres. I don't know. I cannot tell.

17 I cannot tell you the exact distance, but it wasn't far.

18 Q. All right. Now, please, as precisely as possible, Witness, was

19 there anyone in the line of fire -- from where Stela was shooting the

20 Scorpion pistol, was there anyone in that line of fire, other than the

21 Muslim prisoners who had been made to go over the sandbags?

22 A. No.

23 Q. What happened after that?

24 A. Well, nothing. A couple of prisoners managed to escape across to

25 the other side, a couple of them came back. I really can't tell now. In

Page 2563

1 such moments, you don't really think clearly. I think a couple of them

2 were even beaten up.

3 Q. I was going to ask you about that, if you can help us. Those

4 prisoners who made it back to the HVO side of the line, what happened to

5 them?

6 A. Some received beatings. I don't know if Stela was one of those

7 who did the beating. But some of them were hit over the head, they were

8 slapped and they were cursed at, they're balijas.

9 Q. Did you see this or some part of the same group of prisoners later

10 that same day?

11 A. Yes. I saw them when they went back home. They were in front of

12 Stela's command post at the corner of Kalemova Street, and it was getting

13 dark.

14 Q. And what did you see?

15 A. I heard Stela yelling something. There were some round columns

16 there at the house, and there was Stela there and some other person, so

17 they were yelling back and forth. I don't know who of the two of them,

18 but, anyway, a hand grenade was thrown, and I really cannot say who did

19 that. But I managed to take cover, because I was close by. I was able to

20 hide. There was a long line of plane trees and I managed to hide behind

21 one of those, and I could just see that people were injured. I don't know

22 if anybody was seriously injured. I cannot confirm or deny that. But

23 again it was a pretty bad experience.

24 Q. Again, let's step back for a moment. If I can ask you a few

25 details. In what direction was the hand grenade thrown in; at or to what?

Page 2564

1 A. It was thrown in the direction of the prisoners.

2 Q. And you sought cover?

3 A. Yes, behind this plane tree.

4 Q. Did you look out after the explosion?

5 A. Yes. They were all lying down. I couldn't see either Stela or

6 the other man, but everybody was on the ground, and several of them were

7 sort of writhing in pain. I think they were hurt.

8 Q. Let me direct your attention to the next day. Did you have a

9 conversation with anyone the next day about these events?

10 A. What incident are you referring to?

11 Q. The one you just -- well, the situation with the prisoners, both

12 at the line and then later when you said in front of the headquarters.

13 Did you talk to anyone the next day about either or both of those

14 incidents?

15 A. Yes, we talked, me and another guy. He had also heard about the

16 hand grenade being thrown, and he heard that one of those prisoners was

17 killed. But that's all I heard, that story. I didn't see anybody

18 killed.

19 Q. Did you talk to anyone else about those events? Was any threat

20 made to you?

21 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Meek.

22 MR. MEEK: If it please the Trial Chamber, I must object. That is

23 a very leading and suggestive question.

24 MR. SCOTT: I'll rephrase it, Your Honour.

25 Q. Did you have any other conversations with anyone else --

Page 2565

1 JUDGE LIU: Hold on for a minute.

2 Mr. Meek, did you finish your objections?

3 MR. MEEK: Your Honour, I have, but I just wanted to point out,

4 and I will shut up and sit down, this is exact reason I made the request

5 earlier for Your Honours to discuss what to do because once we make the

6 objections, the witnesses listen to everything that's being said and it

7 almost becomes irrelevant at times.

8 Thank you, I'm sorry.

9 JUDGE LIU: We have all the notice of your request.

10 Yes, Mr. Scott.

11 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, I'll try to rephrase it.

12 Q. You've told us about one conversation. My only other question to

13 you now is, did you have any other conversations that following day with

14 anyone else about what happened?

15 A. All this is a little bit too much for me now. I cannot recall

16 right now.

17 Q. Very well.

18 You left then. We're at the end of your direct examination,

19 Witness. You then left the HVO, you already told us, in late September

20 1993. And I have only about two questions for you. The first is you were

21 asked now some time ago to distinguish, if you remember, the conduct

22 between the Vinko Martinovic known as Vina and the Vinko Martinovic known

23 as Stela.

24 If the Chamber will allow me, as I said I would some time ago, to

25 come back to that, the person you know as Vinko Martinovic Vina, would he

Page 2566

1 have engaged in the conduct that you have described --

2 JUDGE CLARK: Don't ask the question that way. Mr. Scott, you are

3 really going beyond what is normal.

4 MR. SCOTT: All right. That's fine, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE CLARK: Just ask him a short question.

6 MR. SCOTT: I'll just move on, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE CLARK: I think this question should be answered. It's

8 important. There's an easy way to ask it. All you have to do is say, Can

9 you, at this stage of the conflict, assist this Tribunal in

10 distinguishing, if you can, between the behaviour of one of the

11 Martinovics and the other. Because now we are dealing with the conflict

12 between the Croatian population and the Muslim population; previously, you

13 were dealing with the conflict with the Serbs.

14 MR. SCOTT: It's never a good idea to argue with the Judges,

15 Your Honour. I think we had earlier come back to the middle of the summer

16 of '93 and the conflict with the Muslims.

17 Q. But in any event, Witness S, you have heard Judge Clark's

18 question. Can you assist us, please.

19 A. I can say one thing. Vina, Vinko Martinovic, Vina, was a very

20 good man. And I regret very much for not being able to thank him for

21 everything that he has done for me. He actually enabled me to leave the

22 city. He provided me with a blank laissez-passer, and he turned out to be

23 a much better man. He never treated me as Muslim and pointed out that I

24 was Muslim or balija, as Stela would have put it. And that was the

25 biggest difference.

Page 2567

1 MR. SCOTT: I have no further questions, Your Honour.

2 Thank you, Witness.

3 JUDGE LIU: Cross-examinations, Mr. Krsnik.

4 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I would first like to ask if...

5 Thank you.

6 Cross-examined by Mr. Krsnik:

7 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Witness. Let me introduce

8 myself, I am Kresimir Krsnik, Defence counsel for Mr. Mladen Naletilic. I

9 will ask you some questions. I will try to frame them in such a way that

10 you can really focus on them and answer them as briefly as you can.

11 When you were 20 years old and living in Mostar, you said that

12 people who had Mercedes cars and a lot of money were respectable people?

13 A. No, I said nothing of that sort.

14 Q. Let me remind you. When my learned friend asked you, and I think

15 it was in reference to Zelja, when you were answering that question, you

16 said that he was a respectable man because he had a Mercedes and money.

17 A. I know exactly what I said. I said that in reference of Zubac,

18 and of course I respect a person who was respectable before the war.

19 Q. That goes outside of the scope of my question. But do you recall

20 when you were asked that he was a respectable person?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Well, you see, did you want to be such kind of a person in Mostar

23 when you were 20?

24 A. Who doesn't want to be that? Of course.

25 Q. Was that the reason why you engaged in smuggling of cigarettes

Page 2568

1 when you were 20 years old?

2 A. No.

3 Q. You did not need money; you did not want to have more money?

4 A. Of course, I needed money, but not to become respectable in that

5 kind, but to be able to take my girlfriend out.

6 Q. Your motivation for smuggling cigarettes was to be able to go out

7 with your girlfriend, one or more girlfriends and other friends?

8 A. I always had one girlfriend, and I had friends.

9 JUDGE LIU: You have to slow down at certain points because the

10 interpreter is really far behind you.

11 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Let me take you back because of this intervention. Your

13 motivation to make money and to be able to go out with your girlfriend,

14 that had nothing to do with smuggling, to have more money?

15 A. Your question is an awkward question. I have to give you an

16 explanation.

17 Q. Please don't.

18 A. Then I can't answer your question because it won't be right.

19 JUDGE DIARRA: Mr. President, with your permission, I should like

20 to ask the Defence counsel to be less aggressive in his treatment of the

21 witness. Thank you.

22 JUDGE LIU: Well, Witness, you are obliged to answer the questions

23 if you could.

24 THE WITNESS: Of course I would like to answer questions if I

25 can.

Page 2569

1 MR. KRSNIK:

2 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, you don't need to answer all the

3 questions. You answer the questions that you can answer. If you don't

4 know something, you just say so. Nobody is forcing you to anything.

5 JUDGE CLARK: Excuse me, I would like to say something. There's a

6 misunderstanding. You asked the witness a question; and before he had an

7 opportunity to answer it, you told him not to answer it. That's a

8 decision that the Court makes, not counsel.

9 So you asked him a question. He is willing to answer it. And

10 with respect, I think he should be allowed to answer it. If he goes

11 wandering very far away, obviously that's another problem. But he's

12 willing to answer the question, and it sounds as if you're attacking his

13 credibility and his personality and his reputation, which you're entitled

14 to do, which you're entitled to do in cross-examination, provided you lay

15 the ground. But this witness is defending his reputation, and I think, in

16 fairness, we should let him.

17 Thank you, Mr. Krsnik.

18 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I was thinking along the

19 same lines. I was just going to ask him two or three quick questions so

20 that we could arrive at a point where he can answer properly. But if

21 you're saying that he should answer, of course. I just wanted to lay the

22 ground by asking him two or three quick questions, but I did not want him

23 not to answer.

24 JUDGE CLARK: Remember, you asked him a question about making

25 money from smuggling, and he said, "That's an awkward question. I'd like

Page 2570

1 to answer." And I think the transcript indicates that you said, "Please

2 don't." And maybe he should, in fairness, be allowed to answer that

3 question.

4 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Very well.

5 Q. You have heard the question. Will you please answer it now.

6 A. Well, while you were discussing this, I figured out a way to

7 answer it quickly.

8 Mr. Krsnik, you come from the same area as I do. And my father,

9 as a worker, did not have enough money to give me to -- which would have

10 allowed me to take out my girlfriend, so I had -- the only way open to me

11 was to sort of subvert the same State that did not allow me to go out and

12 buy Coke for my girlfriend, so that is basically --

13 Q. Let me just tell you that I'm not from the same area that you are.

14 A. Well, you probably know how people used to live there, because you

15 speak the same language.

16 Q. No, I don't know how people lived in Mostar, nor was I ever there

17 until these events.

18 A. Well, then perhaps I can explain how things were before.

19 Q. As a 20-year-old, you believed that it's all right to subvert the

20 State?

21 A. If the State is cheating on me, I can cheat on them.

22 Q. And this is quite normal to you, this kind of thinking?

23 A. Yes, I think it is quite normal.

24 Q. Is it normal for you, when you give an oath, let's say an oath to

25 the HVO, to then breach that, too?

Page 2571

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Page 2572

1 A. I know exactly what kind of an oath I gave, that I would protect

2 the independent State of Herceg-Bosna, all of its citizens, and this is

3 what I adhere to.

4 Q. That is not the kind of oath that you gave, the one that you just

5 mentioned.

6 A. I did not quote it verbatim, but I have a signed document about a

7 solemn oath in which I said that I will do everything to protect the

8 Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna and all its citizens.

9 Q. Did you defend all its citizens?

10 A. I tried as much as I could.

11 Q. Can you tell me, did you breach that oath that you had given?

12 A. I don't consider myself having breached it.

13 Q. Tell me, how did the war start in Mostar in 1992? Did the

14 Croatian and Bosnian population have an army at all?

15 A. No, not in that sense of the word.

16 Q. Would you agree with me that this was a self-organised population?

17 A. More or less.

18 Q. You found your own weapons?

19 A. No, I was given a weapon.

20 Q. You have a lot of secondhand knowledge. Do you know, by hearsay,

21 about people arming themselves?

22 A. I know that there were cases when people bought their own weapons,

23 but I was issued one.

24 Q. My question is not about you, because you gave me that answer,

25 that you were given a weapon. But in the war against Serbs, were people

Page 2573

1 buying, with their own money, the weapons that they were using?

2 A. I know that there were such cases, yes.

3 Q. There were a few such cases or were there many such cases?

4 A. I lived in my street and I know what went on in my neighbourhood.

5 I only know that I was afraid of the war, and I wasn't all that interested

6 in how people were acquiring weapons. The important thing was to fight

7 the Serbs.

8 Q. So you mostly were focused on your own street?

9 A. More or less.

10 Q. And this is what went on in '92 and onward until you left?

11 A. I'm talking about a period before the conflict with the Serbs.

12 Q. I am extending that question and asking you: Were you always only

13 focused on your street? Can you answer that?

14 A. No, I also was in Stari Grad, the Podvelezje, Buna, Blagaj, the

15 School of Machine Engineering and so on.

16 Q. Thank you. So I can then assume that you were an experienced

17 warrior?

18 A. I would not call myself that, an experienced warrior.

19 Q. At Podvelezje, there was heavy fighting; is that correct?

20 A. Yes. I believe I was used as cannon fodder.

21 Q. That was not my question. My question was whether there was heavy

22 fighting going on in Podvelezje.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And you said that you took part in it?

25 A. Yes.

Page 2574

1 Q. This was fighting against the Serbs?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Did you fire your weapon?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. When you fired --

6 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it is 1.00. I think

7 that we have completed one area, so this may be a good time to break, with

8 your permission.

9 JUDGE LIU: So we will have a break until 2.30 this afternoon.

10 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.00 p.m.

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Page 2575

1 --- On resuming at 2.31 p.m.

2 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Krsnik, please continue your

3 cross-examination.

4 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, before I do that, with

5 your leave, only two sentences to express the concern of the Defence.

6 During the break, we went across the street to the Dorint Hotel, as every

7 day, and we couldn't do that because the whole Dorint Hotel and the

8 Congress said it was being evacuated, and the building next to us, which

9 is KGB or something like that. So of course, my colleagues were worried.

10 I don't know if the Chamber is aware. There was a bomb threat,

11 and everybody was evacuated. In this building, nobody informed us about

12 that, and it was our colleagues, of course, naturally, colleagues who come

13 from the United States, and especially our lady colleagues who come from

14 the United States, tried to find out what was going on, because it is in

15 our immediate neighbourhood. And I merely wanted to voice my concern and

16 to ask the Chamber if it is aware of -- if they are aware of that. It is

17 under these circumstances, of course, I will concentrate and move on.

18 But the atmosphere is not the same as before the break. And it

19 still goes on. I think all of us here in the Tribunal should have been

20 informed about what goes on 10 metres away from this building. And I

21 should like to thank Mr. Seric, who just said to me people who are in this

22 building are normally evacuated to this building [sic], but there was a

23 ramp here so one couldn't move anywhere. And we are all rather upset by

24 this. It's true we have been through -- we have just gone through a war,

25 so perhaps we know what can happen. But our colleagues from the United

Page 2576

1 States, in view of what recently happened, are naturally very worried.

2 And then we heard in the counsel room that some detainees were not brought

3 back for another case.

4 I think, if nothing else, it would have been decent to let us know

5 about this. I really do not know how we should be able to proceed in view

6 of what has happened and in that atmosphere. And my apologies to the

7 Chamber, but I felt I had to say this.

8 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much to brought this matter to my

9 attention. Frankly speaking, I really don't know what is happening there

10 myself, and I haven't been informed of anything strange. And now we have

11 to understand, it's kind of necessity in this period this moment. And of

12 course, I will instruct the Registrar to look into this matter so that we

13 could get a proper answer in time.

14 I was only told that there may be some exhibitions held in that

15 conference centre, which might cause some inconvenience for the travelling

16 back and forth around this building. I think all the staff will be

17 properly informed. But anyway, I will instruct the registrars to look

18 into this matter. Thank you.

19 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

20 And now, I should like to ask you for permission to go into

21 private session, because I would like to ask some questions which might

22 disclose the identity of the witness.

23 [Private session]

24 (redacted).

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Page 2577

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Page 2584

1 (redacted)

2 [Open session]

3 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

4 Q. You said that you took part in combat operations and you listed a

5 number of obligations fighting Serbs. Is that correct?

6 A. Yes, it is.

7 Q. And you never heard of that so-called Tuta?

8 A. No, never.

9 Q. Do you know which units were attacking Velez, or rather

10 Podvelezje, the operation you took part in?

11 A. No, not really.

12 Q. Tell me, please, do you know what is mesdjidi?

13 A. No, I don't. Perhaps there is another word that I could

14 associate.

15 Q. No, mesdjidi is, amongst the Bosniak people, is something that

16 everybody knows what it is.

17 A. You mean this is plural?

18 Q. Yes, mesdjidi?

19 A. Yes, I know what the word means.

20 Q. Do you know what gas ulhana is?

21 A. I do.

22 Q. And what is the difference between these two institutions and a

23 mosque?

24 A. Well, basically, gas ulhana is where the dead are dressed and

25 prepared for burial, and mesdjidi are prayer, places for prayers except

Page 2585

1 that they are now munara, they don't have munara.

2 Q. Do gas ulhana have munara?

3 A. No, they don't.

4 Q. So tell us, what was it that was destroyed Balinovac or in Podhum,

5 or I don't know what you told us, with dynamite. Was it a mosque, a

6 mesdjidi, or gas ulhana?

7 A. That was the mosque.

8 Q. Could the usher now, please, help me. That same map which we saw,

9 could see of our learned friends. Could we have that same map. Yes, that

10 same map. Yes, that's right, thank you.

11 Could we have it on the ELMO, please.

12 THE REGISTRAR: This map is P11.18/1, because it's the marked

13 version.

14 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I apologise. My

15 colleagues warned me that the transcript says "basilica" and it should say

16 "gas ulhana."

17 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. I think the translators will check it,

18 especially with those names, at night.

19 MR. KRSNIK:

20 Q. [Interpretation] Witness S, will you please be so kind and point

21 at the location at the site of these two mosques?

22 A. The Balinovac Bababesir Mosque was here, and the Podhum Mosque was

23 about here.

24 Q. That is the Podhum one?

25 A. That's right.

Page 2586

1 Q. Ah-ha. I see. So this is actually outside the boundaries of the

2 city?

3 A. No, no, no, it's within the city boundaries.

4 Q. Oh, I see.

5 Now, will you please, for the record, describe Balinovac. Where

6 is it? I mean northeast, northwest; and for podhum likewise.

7 A. Balinovac is, as far as I know, in the south -- excuse me, to the

8 southwest about 800, 900 metres or perhaps a kilometre. East of it is

9 podhum. I don't -- I mean, I can't really tell you to a metre.

10 Q. And where were you sitting at the time? I mean the house that you

11 were in when you answered my learned friend's questions, where is that

12 house?

13 A. It's not on this map.

14 Q. Why? Was it so far away?

15 A. No, not really. Around here somewhere. Up here.

16 Q. I see. Replying to my learned friend's questions, you said the

17 gunfire was so fierce that you couldn't even talk to your brother, if I

18 understood you well?

19 A. That's right.

20 Q. But after that, you said that you heard -- after that, you said

21 that you heard that these two mosques had been mined with dynamite. How

22 could you hear that?

23 A. It was already 10.00 by that time.

24 Q. And you really knew what that explosive was used for?

25 A. No, we didn't. But after the stones fell, when they began falling

Page 2587

1 off the building.

2 Q. And then everything that you told us later on was inference on

3 your part?

4 A. What you mean by this?

5 Q. Well, what you said that --

6 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Scott.

7 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, forgive me for interrupting. Maybe it

8 would be helpful if we marked, since Defence has come back to it, maybe it

9 would be helpful if marked we those two locations of the mosque on the

10 map. Then it will be clear.

11 JUDGE LIU: You don't mind that this is your evidence?

12 MR. SCOTT: No, Your Honour, not for these purposes. I'm sure the

13 witness will do the best he can.

14 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

15 Mr. Krsnik, can you ask the witness to mark that very place.

16 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I will do that, of course,

17 Mr. President. We wanted to do that, but since this was a Prosecution's

18 exhibit, then I simply -- I was reluctant to do that. And of course, the

19 Defence is very poor. It does not have all these facilities.

20 But will now witness place number 1 -- I mean, a clean map, an

21 unmarked map. If we can have an unmarked map, and then the next number.

22 Will you put there the next number. I don't know which is the last number

23 on the map, and then the witness says that I think number 4 is the last

24 number we have on the map.

25 Thank you very much.

Page 2588

1 A. Now, what shall I do?

2 Q. Put number 1, the mosque at podhum; number 2, the mosque at

3 Balinovac; and number 3, the place where you were.

4 Now, Witness, were there other mosques on the West Bank?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Tell me, since you were in the war against the Serbs, what kind of

7 shelling, of Serb shelling was there in Mostar? How long did it last, a

8 month, two months, a year? How many shells hit the city, of course, if

9 you know that? And what did the Serbs mine when they withdrew, if you can

10 tell the Chamber?

11 A. Well, the shelling lasted for a very long time by the Serbs. And

12 of course, lots of things were damaged, both the cathedral church, and

13 many mosques, and Catholic church at Podhum and Bulevar itself. There was

14 a lot of damage done to the old town, only the old bridge remains standing

15 as it had for --

16 Q. I apologise. I'm interrupting you. Was the old bridge mined, as

17 all the other bridges across the Neretva by these troops?

18 A. No, it was not. It was damaged, but it was not mined.

19 Q. Perhaps we are talking at cross-purposes. My question was very

20 clear, and I wasn't asking you a leading question. What I asked you was

21 are you aware that all the bridges, all the bridges across the Neretva in

22 Mostar, were mined by the Serb troops. Do you know that, or don't you

23 know it?

24 A. No, I do not know that.

25 Q. So that was my question. Thank you very much. I do not think we

Page 2589

1 shall need this map anymore. Only if the ELMO could be put down or

2 removed, because then I can see the witness, if the ELMO can be pulled

3 down.

4 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] And I would like to ask the Registrar

5 to give me a temporary number, because the Defence will tender this into

6 evidence at the appropriate stage.

7 THE REGISTRAR: The identification number is D1/14.

8 JUDGE CLARK: With the President's permission, I'd just like to

9 say something, Mr. Krsnik.

10 My remarks about leading questions were only directed to the

11 Prosecution when they are introducing their own witnesses. You can ask

12 leading questions in your cross-examination, but not your own witness. I

13 don't mean to be formulating bad rules.

14 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Of course

15 I'm aware of this, but I was just trying to reinforce the question by

16 saying that I was not leading him in any way. I just left it to his best

17 answer, and this is why I asked him whether he knew or not. Thank you.

18 Q. Please, Witness, can you tell me the name of the two Sadzak

19 brothers?

20 A. One's name was Elvir, and the other -- I'm not sure right now

21 which two of the three were there.

22 Q. But Elvir was definitely one of them?

23 A. Yes, Elvir was definitely one of them.

24 Q. And another one of the other two brothers?

25 A. Yes.

Page 2590

1 Q. Very well. We will then ask Elvir this question. Would you be so

2 kind as to tell us whether you had any rank either during the fighting

3 against the Serbs or during the, I don't know, conflict or however I

4 should call it with the Bosniaks?

5 A. No.

6 Q. You were always only a regular soldier?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And as a regular soldier, you were always given that much

9 attention that you were in the company of officers, you could go to their

10 homes, you were even served lunch, going to places where other people

11 could not go?

12 A. Yes. That was on a friendly basis.

13 Q. In your statement, you said that nobody could enter the Sadzak

14 brothers' restaurant unless they were important people or respectable

15 people?

16 A. Something like that.

17 Q. Now, what was the basis of your being able to? Were you a

18 respectable person?

19 A. No. I don't know how to explain this to you, but however I put

20 it, it's not right. If I say, no, I could enter in the Oasis, it would be

21 difficult.

22 Q. Was this a coffee shop, a coffee bar, or a restaurant?

23 A. It was both, plus there was a pool table upstairs.

24 Q. And where was this restaurant, if you could tell the Trial

25 Chamber, approximately?

Page 2591

1 A. At the old village stadium.

2 Q. Very well, the old village stadium. Very well, we now know the

3 exact location. And this restaurant, when you were present there, did

4 people say anything in front of you?

5 A. Not always.

6 Q. Under what circumstances did people not talk in front of you, if

7 you know, and under what circumstances did people talk in front of you,

8 and who was it who conversed there, in general?

9 A. There were various situations. I cannot think of any specific one

10 right now, who was talking to whom, and what were the circumstances in

11 which I was present or not present there.

12 Q. Now, tell me, in the course of 1992/'93, did you ever see the

13 gentleman whom you refer to as "Tuta" anywhere else except for that really

14 quick encounter at the cemetery?

15 A. I said that it was the only time that I -- it was the first time

16 that I had seen him.

17 Q. And you were told that this is who it was?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. So you only know about Tuta, apart from that one thing, from

20 others?

21 A. Yes, everything that I know about him is from someone else.

22 Q. And this knowledge of him, were they from what we would term the

23 "coffee shop talk"?

24 A. Yes, and there were both positive and negative things that were

25 said about him.

Page 2592

1 Q. You never saw him personally issuing any orders, conducting any

2 operation?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Issuing orders?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Now, tell me, how did you remember today that you had heard or

7 overheard the conversation between Mr. Tuta --

8 A. And Baja?

9 Q. Yes, and Baja.

10 A. When I arrived here, I started thinking, so a lot of small things

11 came up, and this one seemed important.

12 Q. How were you able to conclude what they were talking about,

13 because you only heard a single sentence? [Realtime transcript read in

14 error "A. [No audible response]"] It could have referred to many things?

15 A. That's what I said. I didn't say that it referred to any specific

16 thing.

17 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think --

18 JUDGE LIU: Well, before you continue, I think we missed a

19 sentence. You asked the question: "How were you able to conclude what

20 they were talking about, because you only heard a single sentence?" And

21 we missed the answer of the witness. For the sake of the record, would

22 you please ask this question once again?

23 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Witness, you heard and you remember my question, so if you could

25 just restate your answer for the record.

Page 2593

1 A. As you know, every person sort of goes back and thinks about

2 things that had taken place. I could conclude, from a situation that was

3 prevailing in Mostar at that time, and I wasn't suggesting that it was to

4 any particular thing that it was referring to. I just said what I had

5 overheard. I wasn't trying to spin this sentence in any particular

6 direction.

7 Q. My question was actually even more specific. Could you have

8 concluded, based on that sentence, a million different things, not only

9 that thing?

10 A. Perhaps not a million, but many things.

11 Q. Other things, in other words?

12 A. Yes.

13 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] That would be all, Your Honours. The

14 Defence for Mr. Naletilic has no further questions, and we thank you for

15 your patience.

16 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

17 JUDGE CLARK: Through the President, there was just one thing,

18 talking about the transcript. I thought you asked this witness - and I

19 may be wrong because what I noted and what the transcript said were

20 different - when he was talking of making his statement and you went

21 through how he had gone to the Bosnian embassy and he had made contact

22 with the charge d'affaires there, did you ask him, "Did he have contact

23 with AID," and on the transcript that came out as, "Did you have ID?"

24 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honour, for

25 the keen attention that you're paying to these things. When I asked the

Page 2594

1 witness, I was referring to "AID" or "AID", and the witness immediately

2 knew what this referred to. It is the Bosnian Secret Service.

3 JUDGE CLARK: Thank you. But you will accept that there's quite a

4 difference between that and "ID", yes. Thank you. It worried me a

5 little.

6 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you again, Your Honour, and to

7 the Trial Chamber.

8 JUDGE LIU: Cross-examination by Defence counsel for

9 Mr. Martinovic.

10 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I would like

11 to notify the Trial Chamber that in the break before the

12 cross-examination, I provided to the Registry a statement of the witness

13 which he had given to the Prosecution investigators, and it depends on

14 whether I -- I don't know if I'm going to use it or not. That will depend

15 on the cross-examination or not, whether he needs to have his memory

16 refreshed on this. But I will notify the Trial Chamber in time on that.

17 Cross-examined by Mr. Seric:

18 Q. [Interpretation] Witness S, I'm Branko Seric, an attorney from

19 Zagreb, and I represent the accused Vinko Martinovic.

20 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, can we go into the

21 private session for just a couple of questions, and I think that there

22 will be no further need to go into private session thereafter.

23 [Private session]

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

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Page 2599

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14 [Open session]

15 JUDGE LIU: We are now in the open session. You may proceed.

16 MR. SERIC:

17 Q. [Interpretation] You said that you played pool. Is that correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. With whom did you play?

20 A. With my brother and another friend.

21 Q. From your vantage point where you played pool, could you see out

22 of the window?

23 A. Yes, these were fairly large windows which went down to probably

24 about the waist, so you could see a lot.

25 Q. Could you hear what he was saying?

Page 2600

1 A. I do not understand the question.

2 Q. Did you -- could you hear what Baja said when he entered the lower

3 level of the restaurant?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Where were the Sadzak brothers?

6 A. One had just brought us drinks upstairs, and the other one was

7 downstairs. And then that one called his brother to join him downstairs.

8 Q. And throughout that time, you were on the upper level?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. How long did you stay in the Oasis Restaurant?

11 A. Well, I really can't give you the time.

12 Q. Why can't you?

13 A. Because I don't recall how much time had passed, how much time we

14 spent in the coffee bar.

15 Q. But all day long you have been trying to tell us that in these

16 eight years, you reconstructed all your moves. And when I ask you a very

17 simple question, how long you stayed there, you are unable to answer.

18 A. I can't.

19 Q. Very well.

20 You said that after that, you spent the night at Mario

21 Milicevic's?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. When did you arrive at his place?

24 A. Late in the evening.

25 Q. What time?

Page 2601

1 A. I don't know. It was dark. But at any rate, it was very late.

2 Q. Where is the apartment or house of Mario Milicevic?

3 A. Perhaps 300 metres away from my house, the same street.

4 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, can I ask for private

5 session so that I can pursue this answer.

6 JUDGE LIU: Okay. We will go to the private session.

7 [Private session]

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

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24 [Open session]

25 JUDGE LIU: Now we are in the open session.

Page 2602

1 MR. SERIC:

2 Q. [Interpretation] You said that there was morning fighting, that

3 the fighting started after 5 a.m. in the morning, and that there was

4 intense shelling from the tanks, mortars, and PAMs. Can you first tell us

5 what a PAM is; and then if you can, because you said that you were on all

6 these various fronts, what type of weapons were these?

7 A. Are you referring to PAM?

8 Q. Very well. Let's start with them.

9 A. That is the anti-aircraft machine gun. That's the acronym for

10 it. And PAT is anti-aircraft gun.

11 Q. You also mentioned tanks.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Can you tell me how many tanks there were?

14 A. I don't know the exact number, but there were very many tanks.

15 Q. More than ten?

16 A. Probably, and perhaps more than 20.

17 Q. How about mortars? How many mortars were there?

18 A. I don't know, but they were of all calibres.

19 Q. More than 50?

20 A. I cannot answer that.

21 Q. How many PAMs were there?

22 A. I'm sure of three, and one PAT or P-A-T.

23 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber, because we know the terrain there,

24 and I hope that the Trial Chamber will become familiar with it, how many

25 streets are there around Vranica building?

Page 2603

1 A. Vranica is in the very centre of town.

2 Q. Is it looking on to a single street or several streets? How many

3 streets lead to the Vranica building?

4 A. You have the one that comes from the old village playground, and

5 then one from the police station, and then one coming from the trade

6 school. So three or four.

7 Q. Do you know the width of those streets?

8 A. I don't.

9 Q. Where could the tanks have been deployed?

10 A. I don't think that it's a question that I could answer.

11 Q. I don't mean, then, in that situation. But since you know the

12 city of Mostar and we hear that you know the neighboring streets well,

13 too, could you think where all these tanks, all these artillery weapons

14 and all those mortars, where could they fit?

15 A. But they were not in the city only, they were also Podhum, around

16 Mostar, on the hills around Mostar. I didn't say they were all within the

17 city.

18 Q. Did you see them all?

19 A. No, I didn't. And I never said that.

20 Q. That's why I'm asking you. If you did not see them, then how can

21 you talk about that?

22 A. Because I heard. Not from other people, I could hear them, and I

23 can distinguish a gun from a machine gun from a mortar.

24 Q. But can you distinguish between the gunfire produced -- or rather

25 the noise produced by the gunfire from 10 and 30 tanks?

Page 2604

1 A. Yes, I can.

2 Q. Do you know how many tanks did the Croat Defence Council have that

3 May 1993?

4 A. No, I don't know that.

5 Q. You stated that from the month of May until September, from

6 Dr. Aleksic's house on Bulevar, you fired at the tanks belonging to Muslim

7 armed forces. Is that correct?

8 A. I did not say that I fired at them. I said that I was tasked with

9 firing at those tanks if they were set in motion.

10 Q. And did the tanks turn up?

11 A. No, not one when I was on duty.

12 Q. But did they appear during somebody else's duty?

13 A. A couple of occasions, but only on the HVO side.

14 Q. Did the Muslim armed forces have a single tank at that time?

15 A. I don't know.

16 Q. Now, I should like to ask the usher, we've already used it,

17 Exhibit 14.5, which is the Prosecution's exhibit. And could we, then,

18 show this witness that exhibit, 14.5, that photograph, if it could be put

19 on the ELMO, please.

20 Witness S, can you point on this photograph at the house of

21 Dr. Aleksic?

22 A. It's here.

23 Q. And for six months, it was your duty to be at this point?

24 A. No, not always.

25 Q. Can you indicate at the zone of Bristol Velez of the 4th Battalion

Page 2605

1 here, this corner here was their last point. All the other went towards

2 the Catholic church, and will you please point at it at the ELMO.

3 A. This was the last point, and then along the Bulevar and the

4 Catholic church and the bakery.

5 Q. And in the outer direction?

6 A. No, no, no. This was the end of it. That is where we were.

7 Q. On the right-hand side of this photograph, as we move down the

8 Bulevar, whose area of responsibility was this?

9 A. You mean this here?

10 Q. No, you follow the Bulevar.

11 A. This here, that is the Health Centre, was guarded by Stela's and

12 Baja's units.

13 Q. Thank you very much.

14 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] I do not think -- no, just a moment.

15 Q. Will you please put number 1 next to the Aleksic's house on this

16 exhibit, 14.5.

17 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Then the Defence will be tendering

18 this document.

19 THE REGISTRAR: The number is D2/6.

20 JUDGE LIU: We will deal with the tendering of the documents at a

21 later stage. Thank you.

22 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. Yes, that suits

23 me, too, so that we do not waste time with this during the

24 cross-examination. Thank you.

25 Yes, we shall not need it any more. Thank you.

Page 2606

1 Q. Are you familiar with the fact that the anti-terrorist groups were

2 not formed on the 8th of May, 1993?

3 A. No, I'm not. I have no information about that. I know nothing

4 about that.

5 Q. You said that Vinko Martinovic's and Mario Milicevic's units took

6 shifts in this area of responsibility next to the Health Centre?

7 A. That's right.

8 Q. How do you know that?

9 A. Because I saw it with my own eyes quite often, and I also know it

10 from talking to various people, my brother and --

11 Q. No, let's forget about the conversations. What you personally

12 saw, could you tell us exactly what is it that you saw?

13 A. I saw Stela's and Baja's units holding that position.

14 Q. How and when?

15 A. I don't understand what you mean how. I don't understand your

16 question.

17 Q. Well, you had an opportunity to see something. Will you tell us

18 where were you at that time, whom did you see so as to be able to claim

19 that you saw these two units take shifts?

20 A. Yes, I understand it now. Yes, because I was quite often replaced

21 by somebody else at the same time when they changed, so that I could see

22 them.

23 Q. But could you exactly, then, describe this exchange, this

24 changeover shift?

25 A. No, I can't.

Page 2607

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Page 2608

1 Q. At what time of the day did these take place?

2 A. It varied. On the couple of occasions that I saw them, it was at

3 different times of the day.

4 Q. Now, when you go back, when you turn the film back, and if you try

5 to see that time, that picture, can you tell us where you were physically

6 so as to be able to see it?

7 A. The first time I was sitting with a friend on the fence behind a

8 house which had been destroyed, but it was a safe shelter, so I could sit

9 down there and have a break. And it's right across the street from the

10 Health Centre.

11 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] I apologise. But Mr. Usher, could we

12 once again go back to this exhibit, 14.5, so that the witness could

13 identify the location where he says he could see what he says he saw.

14 A. Behind this building, behind this building here. This one, the

15 destroyed one.

16 Q. Right. And the second time, or was there a second time?

17 A. Yes, but it was from that same place.

18 Q. Oh, from that same place, I see. And you had a good view, you

19 could see it?

20 A. Well, I wasn't really interested, you know, what went on.

21 Q. All right. Thank you.

22 Yes, we do not need the exhibit anymore. Thank you very much.

23 How do you explain, then, that this situation with the changeover

24 unit -- change of the shifts of the units is described only by you?

25 Nobody else who has testified so far ever mentioned that, not even the

Page 2609

1 indictment mentions that.

2 A. Well, because I saw that. How else could I say that? I just

3 thought this up? I just said it because I saw it, and I described it as

4 best I could.

5 Q. Could you give us the full name of the person -- I apologise,

6 Mr. President. I don't know if we need -- if he knows the name, should we

7 go back into private. If he says he doesn't know, then we can go on in

8 the open session. Can we do it that way.

9 JUDGE LIU: Just ask if he knows the name or not.

10 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11 Q. Do you remember the name of the person with whom you were sitting

12 on that occasion when you saw those two units change shifts?

13 A. I do remember one person who I was sitting with. The second one,

14 I don't.

15 Q. And can you give us the name of that person? But don't do it

16 right now. Wait.

17 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Can we go into private session,

18 please?

19 [Private session]

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 2610

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12 [Open session]

13 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. Thank you

14 for taking care of me.

15 Q. Can you specify when that happened? Can you specify the time and

16 the place and the circumstances?

17 A. No, I cannot. I cannot give you the exact date.

18 Q. Can you tell us what time of the year it was?

19 A. Summer.

20 Q. Can you now tell us at least approximately what summer month?

21 A. July, I believe, but I'm not sure.

22 Q. And the time of the day?

23 A. Daytime. I don't know. It could have been around between noon

24 and late afternoon. I don't know.

25 Q. How long did your duty last, your shift?

Page 2611

1 A. Well, I can't say it was guard duty, because I wasn't there as a

2 guard. Prisoners were brought to us.

3 Q. And your task was --

4 A. Well, only to watch them, not to let them escape.

5 Q. A while ago, you said "they were brought to us"?

6 A. I did.

7 Q. What do you mean by "us"?

8 A. My group of -- the group of men who were stationed at that place.

9 Q. And what group of men is it?

10 A. My platoon that was called the "Blue Platoon." We called it that

11 ourselves.

12 Q. And that platoon was part of the 4th Battalion?

13 A. Yes, it was.

14 Q. Thank you very much. If we show you the same photograph again,

15 will you be able to pinpoint the place where the prisoners worked and

16 where you were at the time?

17 A. Yes.

18 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Usher, please. I'm sorry, once again

19 the same photograph, 14.5.

20 Q. Will you please show where the prisoners were.

21 A. Somewhere here behind this building, somewhere behind this one.

22 Q. I'm sorry to interrupt you, but when you say "this building," you

23 have to say it for the record. Does that mean that they were behind

24 Aleksic's house?

25 A. That's right.

Page 2612

1 Q. Very well. Let's move on.

2 A. They also worked in the park, in the park which is here, which was

3 between Rado Polje [phoen] -- that is, the Rado Polje River is behind that

4 park and the Catholic church.

5 Q. Would you please put "2" next to the prisoners behind Aleksic's

6 house and the number "3" at a place where they also worked and where you

7 stood guard.

8 A. [Marks]

9 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Mr. Usher, will you please put it on

10 the ELMO so we can all see it? Thank you very much.

11 Q. Now, tell us, this area that you marked, whose area of

12 responsibility was that?

13 A. The 4th Battalion.

14 Q. Thank you. Just one thing I forgot. Where were you then? You

15 said you stood guard, you watched the prisoners. Where were you,

16 physically?

17 A. Physically, I was watching those working in the park or -- right,

18 yes, that's right, that's right, digging trenches next to the park. There

19 was a fence and there were trees, and they were to remove that and to dig

20 there.

21 Q. Can you point at the place where you were? Is it part of the same

22 positions where you said the prisoners worked?

23 A. Yes, more or less.

24 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Yes, thank you, we do not

25 need the photograph anymore.

Page 2613

1 Q. On that occasion - and I cannot really call it because that is

2 what you said - when you stood guard or didn't stand guard, and you will

3 tell us then what you were doing, were you armed on that occasion?

4 A. Yes, I was.

5 Q. What kind of weapon did you have?

6 A. An automatic rifle.

7 Q. So you said from midday until late afternoon, you were there and

8 never moved?

9 A. No, of course I moved. I didn't stay in one place, but I was

10 there. That was my duty.

11 Q. No, I didn't mean that you didn't walk or whatever. I asked: You

12 didn't leave that area and move to some other place from which you

13 couldn't see the prisoners?

14 A. No, I didn't, or maybe I did.

15 Q. Thank you. How did you accept that duty? No, let me rephrase.

16 Were those prisoners Muslims?

17 A. Yes, they were.

18 Q. And how did you accept this duty, since you are a Muslim?

19 A. I had no choice.

20 Q. Could you leave?

21 A. At that moment, no.

22 Q. But you could move freely?

23 A. No, I couldn't. I was free within the city, within the boundaries

24 of the city. I couldn't leave the city.

25 Q. But you also had permits to move outside the city?

Page 2614

1 A. No. I was issued that one only later by Vina Martinovic.

2 Q. Do you remember who signed this permit to leave Mostar?

3 A. I don't.

4 Q. You mentioned an event in which you took part, and you said that

5 from the hospital you brought some persons, whether they were patients --

6 A. No, no. They were obviously prisoners from Heliodrom.

7 Q. What were they wearing?

8 A. Civilian clothes.

9 Q. And whose area of responsibility was the area of the hospital?

10 A. I wouldn't know. The 4th Battalion, I guess.

11 Q. You said -- no. How many prisoners did you say there were?

12 A. I wouldn't know. About ten.

13 Q. And when was that?

14 A. Well, daytime. I wouldn't know the hour.

15 Q. Now, let's say a month and try to associate it with guarding the

16 prisoners that you marked on the photograph, and you said that it was

17 guarding prisoners, or whatever we call it, that it was in July. Now, did

18 this thing happen in July too?

19 A. You know what? Again, I must be quite honest with you. I really

20 am not sure whether it was June, July, August, early September. I really

21 have no idea when that was.

22 Q. Then a logical question comes to me. Why are we then talking to

23 you here today if you cannot give us any specific answer, because this is

24 such a long interval, especially in wartime. Every day things take place,

25 I mean, which are -- momentous things happen and they simply stick in

Page 2615

1 one's memory, and still you cannot answer the simplest question. And just

2 a while ago, you said these prisoners happened in July?

3 A. Well, you know what? Perhaps it is imprinted in one's mind if one

4 goes through a diary of these events. But if one was a participant in the

5 events, I think it is only natural for a man not to be quite sure, to have

6 certain doubts about what happened when.

7 Q. Does that apply to everything that you told us today?

8 A. No, because then I would have said that I wasn't sure.

9 Q. Do you remember your statement that you gave to the investigators

10 of The Hague OTP on the 4th of October, '99?

11 A. I do, yes.

12 Q. And you said then that it happened in July 1993?

13 A. I suppose I did, yes, but I said then "July or August."

14 Q. No, you didn't. You said it was July '93, but you couldn't give

15 the exact date.

16 A. Possibly, and that is why I'm making this correction now.

17 Q. Then is what you said two years ago correct?

18 A. Not necessarily. That is why I'm making this reservation.

19 Something that I'm not sure about, the time that I'm not sure about, I

20 cannot really claim that that was so.

21 Q. You know why this is important to us, because you said that that

22 evening you saw something else in Vinko Martinovic's headquarters?

23 A. That's right.

24 Q. No. Well, let's go back to prisoners. You said that they put on

25 uniforms. What uniforms?

Page 2616

1 A. Camouflage uniforms.

2 Q. And they were given some rifles. What did those rifles look like?

3 A. Well, they looked like real rifles to me. I wasn't aware that

4 they were imitation rifles. That is something that I learnt later.

5 Q. Yesterday, another witness, Witness Q, testified before the

6 Tribunal, and he described them as ordinary dummy, wooden and not painted

7 rifles.

8 A. From the distance that I saw them, they looked like ordinary

9 rifles to me and, to be even more specific, like American rifles.

10 Q. Witness Q testified yesterday --

11 JUDGE CLARK: You've asked your next question --

12 THE INTERPRETER: Your microphone, Your Honour. Microphone for --

13 JUDGE CLARK: -- is saying that the second question was asked

14 before we had a chance to read what the reply was, and your voices were

15 talking over. In fairness to this witness, I don't think there's any

16 evidence that we're talking about the same incident to connect the witness

17 yesterday's description with this. I don't think that we are necessarily

18 talking about the same incident.

19 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, you have taken the words

20 from my mouth. That is something that I am out to prove, and you've

21 resolved a lot of problems for me.

22 JUDGE CLARK: I apologise if I interrupted your

23 cross-examination.

24 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] No, no, not at all, not at all. You

25 were following my line of cross-examination, and you have an excellent

Page 2617

1 grasp of what is going on. But we can come back to that later.

2 Q. So you had a permit and you could leave Mostar?

3 A. That's right.

4 Q. Were they issued for specific periods of time?

5 A. I could write the dates in, because I was given blank forms.

6 Q. When were you issued those forms?

7 A. A day or two before I left Mostar, and I filled them in at home.

8 I used my own typewriter.

9 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Only two minutes, I think, Your

10 Honours. Do we have just one -- there is time for one more question, but

11 I cannot finish today. And these are really very important questions and

12 precisely along the same line of questioning or thinking that Judge Clark

13 mentioned a while ago.

14 Q. Do you recall the date that you put in, in that form, that you

15 typed into that form, to leave Mostar?

16 A. I don't.

17 Q. Do you remember the month?

18 A. It was September.

19 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honours. I

20 believe this would be a convenient time to make -- to adjourn, and I would

21 then like to go on with my cross-examination tomorrow.

22 JUDGE LIU: Well, yes. Yes, Mr. Scott.

23 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, I apologise for intervening at this hour,

24 but there are some important scheduling matters. I'm sorry to take the

25 witness's time, but perhaps it's more efficient.

Page 2618

1 As the Court knows, we are taking, from our perspective, at least,

2 an important witness out of turn tomorrow. We had expected to call this

3 witness and had planned to call this witness next week, but we were asked,

4 for various reasons I won't go into at the moment, to accelerate this

5 witness. I'm afraid it's likely that this next witness will take the

6 better part of the remainder of the week, and in fact it raises again and

7 I've been asked to raise with the Chamber again - it may be impossible -

8 but whether we may even go into Friday afternoon.

9 However, my question at the moment is: I just wonder if Mr. Seric

10 can give us any indication of how much longer. I'm not trying to rush

11 him, interfere with his cross-examination in any way, but I just wonder if

12 there is any time estimate, because frankly then we may be faced with a

13 situation -- I'm sorry for talking so fast. We may be faced with a

14 situation where we have to then -- well, we may have to start this other

15 witness. And it would be highly unfortunate, I think, to keep

16 this Witness S here then over the weekend for possibly 15 or 20 minutes on

17 Monday. It would be highly unfortunate. So if we could have a little

18 more information, and perhaps both from Mr. Seric, and from the Chamber,

19 in terms of its thinking, we could try to make our plans accordingly.

20 Thank you.

21 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. What's the initial response from Seric? I

22 understand that it's difficult to prejudge the time you're going to use in

23 the cross-examination, but I hope you could do your best to give some

24 thought on this matter.

25 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Yes, absolutely so, Your Honour. The

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Page 2620

1 length of my cross-examination will, as a rule, always depend on the

2 direct examination. I do not think we shall go beyond that time. I'm not

3 trying to speak diplomatic lingo in order to get out of the scrape. In

4 this case, the length of my cross-examination will not depend on me but on

5 the witness, because if I have to use some documents, if we need to read

6 those documents, if we have to show these documents to the witness, if the

7 witness has to read those documents, then that of course will take much

8 more than an hour, perhaps two hours. But if the witness, after five

9 questions that I ask him -- I won't say if he provides me with desired

10 answers, but if he gives me answers that will enable me to finish my

11 cross-examination, then it should not take longer than an hour, an hour

12 and a quarter.

13 JUDGE LIU: Well, your right of cross-examination of a witness is

14 fully respected, but it does not necessarily mean that you take as long

15 as the Prosecution.

16 Mr. Scott, do you have anything to add?

17 MR. SCOTT: Yes, Your Honour. I'm sorry to take it up again, but

18 as you know, we cannot speak to the witness now, based both on the Court's

19 rule and on the Prosecutor's practice, and I think in fairness to the

20 witness, the witness will have to be advised that if his testimony is not

21 concluded, then he will have to stay here until he's finished on Monday, I

22 suppose.

23 JUDGE LIU: I'll consult this very issue with the registrar.

24 Yes, Mr. Krsnik. I would like to remind you that we are five

25 minutes past the schedule already.

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Page 2622

1 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Just one comment. I heard, if I

2 heard it correctly from the Prosecutor, that we may be working Friday

3 afternoon. I unfortunately cannot attend that hearing because I have my

4 own schedule, and this is in full compliance with the schedule that you

5 announced beforehand. The Naletilic Defence is unable to be there Friday

6 afternoon.

7 JUDGE LIU: I'm not expecting that we will have a very big

8 debate on the scheduling. We're just gathering information of, the initial

9 response from both sides.

10 Yes, please.

11 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Precisely. Given the schedule that we

12 have, which is very dynamic; given that the Defence is in the courtroom

13 pretty much all day and we have a pile of materials which we couldn't go

14 through beforehand so we have to use weekends for that; and then on top of

15 that we need to go to Bosnia and Herzegovina or Croatia for follow-up

16 work, and the connections that we have are also not very convenient, so

17 it's all very time-consuming, and I apologise for taking up the time.

18 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. This Trial Chamber will consult with the

19 registrar on this very issue. We have to adjourn until 9.30 tomorrow

20 morning right now.

21 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

22 4.08 p.m., to be reconvened on

23 Wednesday, the 20th day of September, 2001,

24 at 9.30 a.m.

25