Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 3351

 1                          Monday, 8 October 2001

 2                          [The accused entered court]

 3                          [Open session]

 4                          --- Upon commencing at 9.40 a.m.

 5            JUDGE LIU:  Call the case, please.

 6            THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case number

 7    TT-98-34-T, the Prosecutor versus Naletilic and Martinovic.

 8            JUDGE LIU:  Good morning, everybody.  We are sorry we are late for

 9    about five minutes because of the technical problems.  So, Mr. Prosecutor,

10    are you ready for your next witness?

11            MR. STRINGER:  Yes, good morning, Mr. President, and Your

12    Honours.  We are prepared to call the next witness, who has requested

13    protective measures.  He has requested to use a pseudonym and to have face

14    distortion while he testifies.  The witness is currently a resident of

15    Bosnia-Herzegovina, and so I don't expect there will be any objection from

16    the Defence for the protective measures.

17            JUDGE LIU:  Are there any objections from Defence counsel?

18            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour.  No, we

19    have no objections.

20            MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.  Our

21    Defence also has no objections.

22            JUDGE LIU:  So your request is granted.

23            MR. STRINGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.  So if the witness could

24    be brought in.  While that's happening, perhaps I could inform the Trial

25    Chamber of what we view as being the relevant parts of the indictment that

Page 3352

 1    will be touched upon by this witness's testimony.

 2            The main thrust, if I can say generally, will be the events which

 3    occurred in Sovici beginning on the 17th of April, 1993.  The witness will

 4    give evidence relevant to paragraphs 7 and 11, which is the Background

 5    part of the indictment; paragraphs 14 through 17, relating to the superior

 6    responsibility of both of the accused; paragraphs 18 through 21 which

 7    relate to the existence of an international armed conflict and the

 8    existence of a wide-spread or systematic campaign for purposes of Articles

 9    2 and 5 of the Statute.  The witness's evidence will be relevant to

10    paragraphs 25, 27 through 30, 32, and 34, which are all found in count 1,

11    the persecution count, relating to the Sovici attack, prisoners at

12    Ljubuski, the Heliodrom, and forced labour.

13            The evidence will also be relevant to paragraphs 36 through 40,

14    counts 2 through 8, regarding the use of prisoners for forced labour; and

15    finally, Mr. President, the evidence will be relevant to paragraphs 45 and

16    50, counts 11 and 12 relating to beatings and mistreatment as cruel

17    treatment and willfully causing great suffering or serious bodily injury.

18            I should also add, Mr. President, that because of the position of

19    this witness, it may be necessary to go into private session for a

20    significant part of his testimony, the earlier part of it.  But I think

21    that as we get into that, I will alert the Trial Chamber.

22            JUDGE LIU:  Thank you.

23                          [The witness entered court]

24            JUDGE LIU:  Good morning, Witness.

25            THE WITNESS:  Good morning.

Page 3353

 1            JUDGE LIU:  Would you please make the solemn declaration.

 2                          WITNESS:  WITNESS Y

 3                          [Witness answered through interpreter]

 4            THE WITNESS:  I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

 5    whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 6            JUDGE LIU:  You may sit down.

 7            THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

 8                     Examined by Mr. Stringer:

 9       Q.   Witness, good morning.

10       A.   Good morning.

11       Q.   Can you hear me all right?

12       A.   I can hear you well.

13       Q.   Witness, I can inform you that the Trial Chamber has granted the

14    protective measures that you have requested.  So during your testimony, we

15    will not be referring to you by your name, rather we're going to be

16    calling you Witness Y, and I have a sheet of paper which I would like for

17    you to look at and to tell us whether on this piece of paper you see your

18    name and your date of birth, and I'm also going to ask you if this paper

19    correctly indicates what was your position in April of 1993.

20       A.   Yes, this is correct.

21       Q.   We're going to wait just a moment until the others look at the

22    paper, and then we'll begin your testimony.

23            So, Witness, let me remind you that while you're testifying, try

24    to keep in mind that you have protective measures so that you should not

25    identify yourself or other members of your family or give information

Page 3354

 1    which might disclose your identity.

 2            Witness Y, let me ask you first, is your national or ethnic

 3    background Bosnian Muslim?

 4       A.   Yes.

 5       Q.   And did you -- were you born in the village of Sovici and did you

 6    live there all of your life until 1988?

 7       A.   I was born in Sovici, and between 1988 and 1992, I lived in

 8    Mostar.

 9       Q.   During the period that you lived in Mostar, did you return to

10    Sovici occasionally?

11       A.   For the most part, every week because my mother lived there.

12       Q.   And then in 1992, did you return to Sovici and continue living

13    there until April of 1993?

14       A.   On 4th April, 1992, I came to Sovici to visit my mother, and it

15    was Bajram, which is a Muslim holiday, and after that, I did not go back

16    to Mostar.

17            MR. STRINGER:  Mr. President, with the assistance of the usher, I

18    would like to give the witness an exhibit.  It's a new exhibit which has

19    been marked as Exhibit 3.3.  It's a map.  I think copies have already been

20    distributed.  Put it on the desk for now.

21       Q.   Witness, before we start hearing your story of what happened to

22    you, I would like to ask you some questions generally about the village of

23    Sovici as of April of 1993.  Okay?

24       A.   In April of 1993, that is until the 17th of April, 1993, the

25    atmosphere was rather good.  There were no problems.

Page 3355

 1       Q.   Let me ask you if you know approximately how many people lived in

 2    the village, and what was the ethnic or national background of the people

 3    living there?

 4       A.   Sovici had a little over 800 population.  It's mixed Muslim and

 5    Croats.  In Sovici, the majority was Muslim, predominantly, and Doljani

 6    had a predominantly Croat population, and Doljani was larger than

 7    Sovici.

 8       Q.   The village of Sovici, was it divided or did it fall into a

 9    smaller number of hamlets?

10       A.   It consisted of several small hamlets, for instance Donja Mahala,

11    Srednja Mahala, Gornja Mahala, like lower, middle, upper middle Mahala.

12       Q.   Gornja Mahala being the upper part, Donja Mahala being the lower

13    part, Srednja Mahala being the middle part.  Is that correct?

14       A.   Yes, yes.

15       Q.   Now, can you tell us, if you know, again, generally the ethnic

16    composition of these hamlets?

17       A.   Donja Mahala was mixed, Muslims and Croats.  The was purely

18    Croatian, and Gornja Mahala was pure Muslim, but there was also a hamlet

19    called Cilici which was mixed Croats and Muslims.

20       Q.   Just for the record, I think, because we are not picking up some

21    of these words in the English transcript, I think, if I may, Gornja being

22    spelled G-O-R-N-J-A, Srednja Mahala, S-R-E-D-N-J-A, Mahala, M-A-H-A-L-A,

23    and Donja Mahala, D-O-N-J-A Mahala.

24            JUDGE LIU:  I think you have to ask the witness whether your

25    spelling is correct or not.

Page 3356

 1            MR. STRINGER:  Very well, Mr. President, I will do that.

 2       Q.   Witness, I have just spelled the names of the hamlets which you

 3    have described.  Is that spelling correct?  Do you see the names now

 4    spelled correctly on the transcript in front of you?

 5       A.   Yes.

 6       Q.   Now, Witness, I'm going to ask the usher to give you a red pen.

 7    And if you can, on the map, if you could show us just by circling --

 8            JUDGE LIU:  I'm sorry, I saw Mr. Seric is standing.

 9            MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] My apologies.  A technical question.

10    The witness did not have a transcript in front of him when he confirmed

11    the spelling, so the transcript was actually not showing on his monitor.

12            JUDGE LIU:  So, Mr. Stringer, will you please do it once again,

13    and the usher will check whether the...

14            MR. STRINGER:

15       Q.   Witness, let me just ask you, you said Gornja Mahala.  Can you

16    please spell that.

17       A.   G-O-R-N-J-A  M-A-H-A-L-A.

18       Q.   Can you spell Srednja.

19       A.   S-R-E-D-N-J-A  M-A-H-A-L-A.

20       Q.   And, finally, Donja Mahala, can you spell that?

21       A.   D-O-N-J-A  M-A-H-A-L-A.

22       Q.   Thank you.  Now, Witness, with the red pen, if you could just make

23    a circle around these three places, particularly if they correspond to

24    locations on the map.

25       A.   [Marks]

Page 3357

 1       Q.   Okay, now I'm going to ask first to put that on the ELMO.  That

 2    way, everyone can see the places the witness has marked.

 3            Okay, that's fine.  Thank you.  Now, Witness Y, I see that you

 4    have circled, placed three circles on this map.  One circle around the

 5    letter G.  What place is that?

 6       A.   This is Gornja Mahala, this is Srednja Mahala, and this is Donja

 7    Mahala.

 8       Q.   So the letters on the map appear to correspond to the names you've

 9    just given us.

10       A.   Yes.

11            MR. STRINGER:  Mr. President, at this time I would like to ask

12    that the witness be shown Exhibit Number 6.3, which is a photograph.  I

13    think the ELMO is okay.  Place it on the ELMO.

14       Q.   Okay, now, Witness, looking at this photograph, if you can, again,

15    first using pointer, show us the location, if it's on this photo, the area

16    of Gornja Mahala.

17       A.   This is Gornja Mahala.

18       Q.   And generally, what was the ethnic composition of that part of the

19    village?

20       A.   Here Muslims; and here Muslims; and in this area, it was mixed,

21    Muslims and Croats.

22       Q.   Okay.  Taking the red pen again, could you just put a circle

23    around the area that you call Gornja Mahala.

24       A.   [Marks]

25       Q.   Thank you.  Well, you mentioned -- well, looking at the

Page 3358

 1    photograph, do you see any other hamlets on the photograph which you've

 2    mentioned?

 3       A.   I see Srednja Mahala.

 4       Q.   And again, what was the ethnic composition of Srednja Mahala?

 5       A.   Croats populated Srednja Mahala.

 6       Q.   Again, taking the pen - and it might be better to give the witness

 7    a different pen so it makes a better mark on the photo - I'll ask you to

 8    place a circle around the area you call Srednja Mahala.

 9       A.   [Marks]

10       Q.   Okay, in that circle somewhere, if you could just place the

11    letters "SM" for Srednja Mahala.  And then in the other circle, the

12    letters "GM" for Gornja Mahala.

13       A.   [Marks]

14            MR. STRINGER:  Mr. President, with your permission, at this time I

15    would like to ask the technical people to play Exhibit Number 4, it's one

16    of the very short video clips which the Trial Chamber saw at the beginning

17    of the trial, which might assist, again, in just orientating in respect of

18    Sovici.

19                         [Videotape played]

20            MR. STRINGER:  I don't know if we're able to do this or not.  I

21    think it's coming.

22                         [Videotape played]

23            MR. STRINGER:  Touch the Video button.  You should be able to see

24    it.  Does everyone see it?

25       Q.   Witness, do you see the videotape on your screen?

Page 3359

 1       A.   I do.

 2       Q.   Can you tell us what area we're looking at right now.

 3       A.   This is Gornja Mahala, Upper Mahala.  The mosque destroyed.

 4       Q.   Now, what area do we see now?

 5       A.   Now we see Srednja, Middle Mahala, and just a few -- this is the

 6    Middle Mahala, Srednja Mahala, but we just saw a couple of bricks which

 7    belong to the Donja or Lower Mahala.

 8            MR. STRINGER:  Mr. President, I don't think we have a way to mark

 9    the videotape, but I think that it's in evidence and the Trial Chamber

10    should be able to link it to the photograph which has been circled.

11       Q.   Now, Witness Y, I would like to now ask you to look at Exhibit

12    8.2, which is a different photograph.  Let me ask you first, are you aware

13    of a hamlet or an area in Sovici called Junuzovic?

14       A.   I am, and that's where it is.

15       Q.   Now, you are pointing to the extreme right-hand side of the

16    photograph.  Could I ask you just to circle that place you're pointing to

17    and place a "J" there for Junuzovic.

18       A.   [Marks]

19       Q.   Now, just looking at this photograph, off to the left there is a

20    road.  Can you tell us what road that is?

21       A.   It connects Sovici, Doljani, and then goes on to Jablanica.

22       Q.   Now, I'm going to ask you now to look at Exhibit 8.8, which is a

23    different photograph.  Now, Witness Y, do you know this place?

24       A.   I do.

25       Q.   And what was this place?

Page 3360

 1       A.   Next to the fish pond here was the HVO command.

 2       Q.   Now, going back to the map, which is Exhibit 3.3, I'd like to ask

 3    you to make a couple of marks on the map.  Using the red pen again,

 4    Witness Y, if you could just take a moment to look at the map and tell us,

 5    if you can, generally speaking, the location of that place called

 6    Junuzovic.

 7       A.   Junuzovici.

 8       Q.   Yes.  I see you've made a circle.  Just underneath the circle, can

 9    you place a "J" for Junuzovic.

10       A.   [Marks]

11       Q.   Okay, again on the map, if you can, can you mark the location of

12    this place that you said was an HVO base.

13       A.   [Marks]

14       Q.   Just underneath that mark, can you place the letters "HVO."

15       A.   [Marks]

16       Q.   Okay, and now with the assistance of the usher, I would like the

17    map to be placed on the ELMO so everyone can see where you've made these

18    marks.

19            Using the pointer, Witness Y, can you tell us the place that you

20    marked as the Junuzovic location.

21       A.   [Indicates]

22       Q.   And then can you also show us what you've marked as the location

23    of the HVO base.

24       A.   [Indicates]

25            MR. STRINGER:  Okay.  Thank you.  Just in terms of scale, and for

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Page 3362

 1    the Trial Chamber, Mr. President, if you look at the bottom of the map,

 2    you'll see that the scale is 1 centimetre for 500 metres.

 3       Q.   But Witness Y, let me ask you if you could tell us, just roughly,

 4    the distance between this HVO base and Donja Mahala going along the main

 5    road.

 6       A.   Three kilometres.

 7       Q.   Now, while we're looking at the map, there's another road which

 8    appears on the map and which also appeared in the photograph that

 9    contained the Junuzovici houses.  Is there another road that goes through

10    Junuzovic toward a place called Risovac?

11       A.   Yes.

12       Q.   Can you, just using the pointer, show us where that road is

13    located on this map.

14       A.   [Indicates]

15       Q.   Okay, now, is there also a different road that goes to Risovac?

16       A.   There is.

17       Q.   Okay.  Thank you.  We'll come back to that.

18            Okay, you can set the pointer down, and we can set the map aside

19    for now.  Witness Y, were you in Sovici on the 15th of April, 1993?

20       A.   I was, yes.

21       Q.   What happened on that day?

22       A.   On the 15th of April, '93, in the afternoon hours, the shelling of

23    the village of Risovac began -- I mean Jablanica.

24       Q.   You say there was shelling in Jablanica.

25       A.   That's right.

Page 3363

 1       Q.   And do you know where the shelling was coming from?

 2       A.   From Risovac, from Junuzovici houses where the heavy artillery had

 3    been put in place.

 4       Q.   Did you see the place Risovac on the map that you were just

 5    looking at?

 6       A.   I did.

 7       Q.   And what was the situation in Sovici, then, on the 15th, while

 8    Jablanica was being shelled?

 9       A.   Tense, naturally; an expectation of the shelling of Sovici,

10    however, Sovici was not shelled on the 15th of April, 1993.

11       Q.   Then, moving ahead to the 17th of April, 1993, what happened on

12    that day?

13       A.   On the 17th of April, '93, in the morning, at 8:00, the shelling

14    of the village of Sovici began, by and large the upper part, that is

15    Gornja Mahala.

16       Q.   Where were you when the shelling started?

17       A.   When the shelling started, I was at home, the house that I was

18    born in.  And then I went to the command post, not far from my house, but

19    I could not establish communication with my superior command so that I

20    went back and then moved to a place called Kamen

21       Q.   Why were you unable to establish contact with the others?

22       A.   Because the power was cut on the 15th of April, '93.

23       Q.   Do you know or were you able to tell where the shelling was coming

24    from at that time?

25       A.   From all sides, from all around Sovici.  But chiefly from Risovac.

Page 3364

 1       Q.   Was all of Sovici targeted by the shelling?

 2       A.   All parts of it.

 3       Q.   What did the civilian population do when the shelling started?

 4       A.   Well, by and large, those who had some cellars went to cellars;

 5    who didn't, fled to other people's cellars.

 6       Q.   Can you give us an idea of the intensity of the shelling; how

 7    frequently were shells landing in the village?

 8       A.   Every second, there would be one, I mean.

 9       Q.   How long did this shelling last?

10       A.   From 8.00 in the morning until quarter to 5.00 in the afternoon.

11            MR. STRINGER:  Mr. President, at this time I think it's necessary

12    to go into private session.

13            JUDGE LIU:  We'll go to private session.

14                          [Private session]

15   (redacted)

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18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

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25   (redacted)

Page 3365












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Page 3393

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17   (redacted)

18                          [Open session]

19            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, we are now in the open session.

20            MR. STRINGER:  Thank you.

21       Q.   When you were in Ljubuski, did you receive any information about

22    what was happening or what had happened in Sovici after you left?

23       A.   Yes, two days later, that is on the 21st of April, '93, some

24    soldiers came who wanted to kill us.  And they said that their commander

25    Cikota had been killed and therefore they had come to slay us all, and

Page 3394












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Page 3395

 1    that our whole village had been set on fire.  And meanwhile, a man turned

 2    up who prevented them from shooting us all.  I was beaten until I fainted,

 3    and I still have scars on my head -- rather, a depression on my head as a

 4    result of that beating.

 5       Q.   Now, after 47 days, were you and other prisoners taken to a

 6    different place?

 7       A.   After 47 days, they came and said 105 prisoners should go to work,

 8    and I was one of them.  And I believed what they said, because in front of

 9    the prison, I saw two UN vehicles, and I thought they were going to take

10    us for exchange --

11            THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, in the previous

12    sentence, it should be "exchange," not "work."

13       A.   But they put us there, took us to Heliodrom, said we were late for

14    the exchange and that we would have to wait for the next day.

15       Q.   Okay.  Witness Y, just so the record is clear, did you say that

16    they came and told us that 105 prisoners were going to be exchanged?

17       A.   Yes, yes, that's right.

18       Q.   So then, you arrived at the Heliodrom, and how long or ultimately,

19    eventually, what's the date that you were released from the Heliodrom?

20       A.   1st of March, '94.

21       Q.   Now, during the time that you were in the Heliodrom, where were

22    you held?

23       A.   When we arrived at Heliodrom, I spent all the time in one

24    building, but at first I was on an upper floor for a period of time.  And

25    then they transferred me to the prison, and then from the prison, they

Page 3396

 1    moved me several times to different solitary confinement cells, and then

 2    once again back to the room where I stayed until the exchange.

 3            MR. STRINGER:  I would like to ask that the witness be shown

 4    Exhibits 20.2, 20.11, two photographs.

 5       Q.   Witness, if you could look at these photographs, please, tell us

 6    if you see the place where you were held when you were at the Heliodrom.

 7       A.   [Indicates]

 8       Q.   Okay.  And this is Exhibit Number 20.2.  Could you please place a

 9    circle around that building with the pen.

10       A.   [Marks]

11       Q.   Okay.  And then just above that circle, if you could place a

12    letter "Y" because you are Witness Y.

13       A.   [Marks]

14       Q.   Okay, and looking at the other photograph, again, do you see the

15    same building in that photograph?

16       A.   Yes.

17       Q.   Can you place a circle around that building, please.

18       A.   [Marks]

19       Q.   Could you please, again, place the letter "Y" above that circle.

20       A.   [Marks]

21            JUDGE LIU:  Well, I'm not sure, you said letter Y --

22            MR. STRINGER:  It looks a bit different than what I would make,

23    Mr. President.  Perhaps I could just ask the witness to make a different

24    mark, perhaps a number "1" on that circle, just a number "1."

25       A.   [Marks]

Page 3397

 1       Q.   Then going back, could you also please place a number "1" by the

 2    other photograph.

 3       A.   [Marks]

 4       Q.   Thank you.

 5            MR. STRINGER:  Mr. President, I think these photos will get their

 6    own exhibit number as well.

 7       Q.   Now, Witness, you said that when you first arrived at the

 8    Heliodrom, I believe you said that you were in a place with other

 9    prisoners.  Is that correct?

10       A.   Yes.

11       Q.   Can you -- and what building was that place?  Is that the building

12    that you were just marking on the photographs?

13       A.   Yes.

14       Q.   Can you describe the conditions there, this first part of the

15    building in which you were held?

16       A.   There were two rooms, one next to another.  One was large.  When

17    we first arrived, we were all placed there.  And at first, it wasn't so

18    bad.  Half of the room was -- had some kind of metal beds so that the ones

19    who were weak could spend the night there.  Because they were saying every

20    day that there would be an exchange so, from day to day, we were expecting

21    this exchange the next day.

22       Q.   And you indicated that at some point, then, you were placed in a

23    different location.

24       A.   Then I was taken from that room to the basement, to a room next to

25    the staircase, where people passed when they went to get their meals.

Page 3398

 1    That room was made entirely of concrete with only an iron door, and that

 2    was a solid door with no opening of any kind on it, and when it closed

 3    there was no-one, no opening, nothing…

 4       Q.   How long, if you remember, did you stay with the others in the big

 5    room upstairs?

 6    A.  When I first arrived, well, I was there for a while, maybe a month and

 7  a half up there.  And then I was transferred downstairs to the prison cell.

 8       Q.   And please describe for us the conditions in the second room that

 9    you were transferred to.

10       A.   Very poor.  I had nothing there except for a pail that I used, a

11    bucket that I used for a toilet.

12       Q.   Was there any lighting in the room?

13       A.   No.

14       Q.   Was any light able to come into the room from outside?

15       A.   No.

16       Q.   So it was completely dark in this room?

17       A.   100 percent.

18       Q.   How long did you remain in this room?

19       A.   About 40 days in that room.

20       Q.   Can you describe for us generally the treatment that you received

21    while you were being held in that room?

22       A.   For the most part, I was always beaten.  I had to step out in the

23    hallway.

24       Q.   There was a shift that I knew would always beat me when they were

25    on duty unless I had to work.  And if I was beaten so badly I couldn't

Page 3399

 1    move, then they would leave me alone for a couple of days until I

 2    recovered enough.

 3       Q.   Were you able to wash yourself while you were in this cell?

 4       A.   No.

 5       Q.   Did anyone assist you in washing in any way?

 6       A.   No.  Only when they would beat me up, when I fainted, then they

 7    would bring in a hose, they would hose me down, and then they would leave

 8    me like that in that puddle.

 9       Q.   Do you know what unit these guards belonged to?

10       A.   They always said that we were Tuta's prisoners, and that they

11    belonged to Tuta.

12       Q.   The guards themselves, did they belong to any particular HVO

13    units, the guards in the Heliodrom?

14       A.   No, they only had the insignia as the military police do, the

15    metal ones where it said military police.

16       Q.   During the time that you were held at the Heliodrom, were you ever

17    taken out to perform labour?

18       A.   Yes, all the others were.  They went to work nonstop.  I only went

19    four times, four times it was that I left the facility.

20       Q.   Did you ever go into Mostar?

21       A.   One occasion I went to Mostar to the Health Centre.

22            MR. STRINGER:  I'll ask the witness be shown Exhibit 14.5, which

23    is a photograph.

24       Q.   Now, Witness Y, let me ask you, the time that you were taken to

25    what you call the Health Centre, at what stage of your detention at the

Page 3400

 1    Heliodrom did this occur?

 2       A.   Well, I was upstairs with all the other prisoners, before I was

 3    taken downstairs to the cell.

 4       Q.   Now, looking at this photograph, 14.5, are you able to recognise

 5    any place that you worked at?

 6       A.   Yes, I can.  This here.

 7       Q.   And can you just take a pencil and put a circle around that area

 8    that you've just pointed to.

 9       A.   [Marks]

10       Q.   You mentioned the Health Centre.  Why did you say the Health

11    Centre?

12       A.   Because before the war, a hospital was there, and it was called

13    the Health Centre.

14       Q.   Can you place a number "1" by the circle that you've just made,

15    please.

16       A.   [Marks]

17       Q.  Witness Y, can you tell us, then, what happened on the day that you

18    were taken to this location to work?

19       A.   They put us in cars, took us to Rondo, and then on foot we were

20    brought through this area, and when we were brought there, we were made to

21    sit down against a wall of this building.  And several people in

22    uniform meanwhile arrived.  One of them ordered us to lie behind the wall.

23    And then they started shooting bursts of fire, I guess over us.  Then some

24    hand grenades were hurled.  One started moaning and he -- I knew him from

25    before.  His name was Tsotsa.  They all started beating him.  One of them

Page 3401

 1    came back and asked us who was the strongest among us, and one young man

 2    said that he was, and then he said anybody else?  Nobody else responded,

 3    and he designated one other soldier, and he said that the two of you tried

 4    to lift him.  And they tried, and then he said fine, now you have a job to

 5    do.

 6       Q.   You mentioned that you were sitting against the wall of a building

 7    and shooting was taking place.  Is that in the location that you just

 8    marked on the photograph with the circle?

 9       A.   There's a concrete wall there, behind this building.  It's paved

10    with concrete, and then there is a wall, and we were there.

11       Q.   Do you know or did you learn the identity of any of the persons

12    who were beating this person you've called Tsotsa?

13       A.   The one who was giving orders turned around and asked one of the

14    prisoners, "How come you're here?"  And he said, "You see, Stela, I was at

15    Capljina, and went to my mother's at Sovici.  This is how I got stuck,"

16    and this is how I knew that this was Stela.

17       Q.   You mentioned that two persons were selected and they had a job to

18    do.  What was their job?

19       A.   The one who later introduced himself as Stela said that one of our

20    prisoners was -- had tried to escape, but he was killed in the process,

21    and they needed to bring his body back from this intersection here.  The

22    two of them went, indeed, and brought back the body.

23       Q.   Was there anyone in your group who knew this person Stela?

24       A.   There was a name called Hasib Lulic who later told me that he and

25    Stela were both serving time in the corrections centre in Zenica before

Page 3402

 1    the war.

 2       Q.   Did you and the others then leave this location and move to a

 3    different location?

 4       A.   For the most part, they moved us next to this kindergarten.  We

 5    were to dig the trenches and move sand bags, and we had to do this until

 6    the dark.

 7       Q.   And then where did you go next?

 8       A.   Then they took us back to Rondo and in front of that building,

 9    they told us to sit down and look down.  And this man was again being

10    beaten, and then he was taken to the cellar of the building.  Then they

11    brought him back.  They went in to beat him.  They brought him back and

12    they put him on the truck and we went away.

13       Q.   You mentioned the Rondo.  What is this place that you were taken

14    to at the Rondo?

15       A.   It was in front of a building, and the people who had brought us

16    there told us that this was Stela's command post.

17       Q.   Did you see who was beating this man when you were in the area of

18    the Rondo?

19       A.   While they were beating him outside, most of those who were around

20    were beating him,  Stela himself and all the others.  And after they

21    brought him -- after they took him down to the basement, I could only hear

22    his screams and moans.

23       Q.   That man that you saw in Sovici who introduced himself as Mladen

24    Naletilic, Tuta, did you ever see him again after the 18th of April, 1993?

25       A.   Yes, I saw him twice at the Heliodrom in Mostar.

Page 3403

 1       Q.   Would you please tell us about each of those occasions when you

 2    saw him.

 3       A.   When I first transferred from Ljubuski to Heliodrom, we were in a

 4    room whose windows looked to the area in front of the building.  And an

 5    Audi 100 model came; it was white.  And Tuta came out and entered the

 6    building, but he did not enter the room in which I was staying at the

 7    time.

 8       Q.   Did you see Tuta again when you were at the Heliodrom?

 9       A.   The second time was when I was in a prison cell.  The police

10    opened the door, and I was ordered to introduce myself to Tuta.  I did.

11    And he said that the conditions that I was in were good compared to what I

12    deserved for what I had done.

13       Q.   Can you describe the prison cell that you were being held in at

14    that time.

15       A.   You come down the staircase from the upper floor, and then you go

16    straight, and then you arrived in the area where the cell was.  It was all

17    concrete, and it had an iron door, or metal door.

18       Q.   Is this the same cell that you described earlier that was -- had

19    no light in it?

20       A.   Yes.

21       Q.   And after then you saw Tuta, what took place?

22       A.   They went back, and five minutes later, the military policeman

23    came, ordered me to come out in front of the cell.  I did.  Then they

24    started beating me with all kinds of things.  There were all kinds of

25    things that they were -- implements, and they started beating me, and I

Page 3404

 1    fell down and blood was dripping on the floor.  And one of those who beat

 2    me ordered me to lick the blood because no balija blood should remain on

 3    Croatian soil, he said.

 4       Q.   Witness Y, did you lose any weight during the ten months that you

 5    were held at Ljubuski and at the Heliodrom?

 6       A.   40 kilograms.

 7       Q.   Witness, at this time, I'm going to ask you to look around the

 8    courtroom.  Tell us if you recognise anyone present whom you've testified

 9    about today.

10       A.   I recognise Mladen Naletilic, Tuta.  Stela is a little different.

11    When I saw him, he had no hair.  He had his head shaved, and Tuta had

12    different glasses.  The frame was different.  They were round.  And his

13    beard is now grey.  It was not at that time.  And he has less hair than

14    before.

15       Q.   Witness Y, for the record, could you just tell us where these --

16    first of all, starting with Mr. Naletilic, can you tell us for the record

17    where he is located in the courtroom?  Can you describe his position and

18    perhaps how he is dressed.

19       A.   He is wearing glasses.  He is wearing a suit, white shirt, longish

20    hair.

21       Q.   What about the tie?

22       A.   Yes, a tie.  From what I can see here, it's red and blue, blue

23    with red dots.

24       Q.   And then the person you've identified as "Stela," can you tell us

25    where he is seated and how he is dressed.

Page 3405












12   Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13   English transcripts.













Page 3406

 1       A.   He is also wearing a suit, a blue shirt, and a blue tie, receding

 2    hair.  I think that they also recognise me.

 3            MR. STRINGER:  Mr. President, no further questions.

 4            JUDGE LIU:  Thank you.  Any documents you are going to tender into

 5    evidence?

 6            MR. STRINGER:  Yes, Your Honour.  I am going to tender several.  I

 7    can do it now or later.  Several of them are already in evidence, but

 8    there are a couple of new ones.

 9            JUDGE LIU:  Maybe at the end of the re-examination.

10            MR. STRINGER:  Yes, Your Honour.

11            JUDGE LIU: Any cross-examinations.

12            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  And I will conduct

13    the cross-examination.

14            JUDGE LIU:  Mr. Krsnik, before you start, there are two things I

15    would like to remind you.  The first one is you and the witness are

16    speaking the same language, so do please make a pause after each

17    question.

18            The second one is that this witness gave most of the part of his

19    testimony in private session.  If your question concerns that part, we'll

20    go into the private session, too.  Thank you.

21            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honour.  I

22    will definitely keep your words in mind.

23                          Cross-examined by Mr. Krsnik:

24       Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness.  I am the Defence counsel

25    for the accused Naletilic, and I will ask some questions of you.  I would

Page 3407

 1    like to ask you to please carefully listen to them and give us as short

 2    answers as you can, because the questions will be framed that way so that

 3    we would not waste any time unnecessarily.

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7            JUDGE LIU:  Well, well, Mr. Krsnik, could we go into the private

 8    session.

 9            We'll go to the private session.

10            MR. KRSNIK: Thank you, Your Honour.

11                          [Private session]

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22    (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 3408












12    Pages 3408 to 3413 – redacted – private session.














Page 3414

 1    (redacted)

 2    (redacted)

 3    (redacted)

 4                           [Open session]

 5            MR. KRSNIK:

 6       Q.   [Interpretation] You said infantry weapons.

 7       A.   [No verbal response]

 8       Q.   Are PAMs, that is, anti-aircraft mortars and mortars, are they

 9    part of infantry weaponry?

10       A.   Yes.

11       Q.   So you had both PAM, the anti-aircraft machine-guns, and mortars?

12       A.   We had two mortars, .62 millimetres, and one anti-aircraft, 13.72

13    millimetres.

14       Q.   And where were they positioned?

15       A.   The mortars and the PAMs, the anti-aircraft, they were at Duga

16    Gruda, yes.

17       Q.   So the PAM was at Duga Gruda, and the mortars?

18       A.   One was in the lower part of Sovici, in Donja Mahala, and the

19    other one in at the upper part of Sovici.

20       Q.   And when you were issued with it, it was in case of a Serb attack?

21      You needed it to fight the Serbs, is it?

22       A.   We had to have them as a unit.  If we went to Igman or whatever,

23    we needed to have this accompany us as a kind of infantry weapons.

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 3415

 1            THE INTERPRETER:  The witness nods.

 2            MR. KRSNIK:

 3       Q.   [Interpretation] And tell me, where is it that you went, this

 4    Sovici Battalion, where else did you go except Sovici?

 5       A.   Hadzici.

 6       Q.   When was that?

 7       A.   The 1st of June, '92 until the 10th of June '92.

 8       Q.   But you said that at times it was the TO, so the Croats went with

 9    you, didn't they?

10       A.   No, they didn't go with us even then.

11       Q.   What kind of weapons did your soldiers have?  I mean the BH army

12    in Sovici?

13       A.   By and large, M-48 rifles, semi-automatic, and a few automatic

14    rifles.

15       Q.   Tell me, you say M-48 rifles.  We are not military experts.  Is

16    that a bad gun?  What's wrong with it?

17       A.   I didn't say it was bad.  That's what the rifle is called.  It

18    came from the former Yugoslav army.

19  (redacted)

20  (redacted)

21  (redacted)

22       A.   Well, I wouldn't be able to tell you to the last man, but I should

23    say 250 to 30 [sic] were inhabitants of Sovici, in Sovici.

24       Q.   Yes, yes, yes, I'm asking you about Sovici.  We shall later on

25    move to some statements that you gave.  I remember you making some

Page 3416












12   Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13   English transcripts.













Page 3417

 1    statements apart from this one in the Court today.  Did anyone interview

 2    you about the events in Sovici?

 3       A.   Well, earlier, yes, in Bosnia-Herzegovina only.

 4       Q.   And nobody else ever interviewed you?

 5       A.   No.

 6       Q.   Did you talk with the representatives of this Tribunal?

 7       A.   No.  It was mostly people from Bosnia-Herzegovina who were

 8    representing somebody, saying we should give those statements.  Well,

 9    there were some officials, but I don't know any one of them so I cannot

10    say really, but they were all from Bosnia-Herzegovina.

11       Q.   If I understand you well, you gave statements only to people from

12    Bosnia-Herzegovina?

13       A.   That's right.

14       Q.   And they were the ones who brought some foreigners to you and

15    those foreigners listened to you or what?  I don't understand.

16       A.   Nothing.  I gave those statements.  I think I was called two or

17    three times to those same people from Bosnia-Herzegovina, they wanted to

18    talk to me, whether I would testify about this and then I said I would.

19    And then there was somebody, I don't know who, but there was somebody from

20    the international community or perhaps even from here.  I wouldn't know.

21       Q.   And tell me, who is it in Bosnia-Herzegovina who called you,

22    invited you that you give a statement?  Who are those people?

23       A.   Well, they were mostly people from state security.

24       Q.   When you say "state security," do you mean the secret police, do

25    you?

Page 3418

 1       A.   Yes.

 2       Q.   And that secret police, then, brought those foreigners when they

 3    interviewed you?

 4       A.   That's right.

 5       Q.   Do you remember those statements that you gave?

 6       A.   I do.

 7       Q.   In one of those statements, you said that there were not more than

 8    200, that is, there were 200 Croats in Sovici.  Today you say 250, 300

 9    inhabitants.  I'm asking you about the inhabitants, about the residents of

10    Sovici.

11       A.   I don't remember ever saying the exact 200, but I said there were

12    twice as many Muslims as Croats, and in Doljani --

13       Q.   No, no, no, let's leave Doljani alone.  We will get to Doljani.  I

14    am asking you about Sovici.  Right, now tell me, please, and what was the

15    Muslim population or the Bosnian population, whatever, we can call them

16    Bosnians or Muslims, please don't get me wrong.  Say how many Muslim

17    residents were there in Sovici?

18       A.   About four to five hundred.

19       Q.   Do you remember the statement that you gave - I don't know to whom

20     - on the 29th of April, 1997?

21       A.   I do.

22       Q.   Do you remember signing that statement?

23       A.   I do.

24       Q.   And whenever you gave those statements, you told the truth, didn't

25    you?

Page 3419

 1       A.   Yes.

 2       Q.   And in that statement, you said that in the village of Sovici,

 3    which was made of several hamlets, there were 612 Muslims and around 200

 4    Croats, and this is three times as many Muslims as are Croats.  You gave

 5    the exact figure.  And that was in '97.

 6       A.   Well, if I said so and signed it, then that must be it.  Then it

 7    must be correct.  Then that is how it was.

 8       Q.   Mm-hmm.  And will you please tell me if members of the BH army

 9    from either villages or towns came to your village?

10       A.   No, they didn't.

11       Q.   Never, not a single member of the BH army outside Sovici came to

12    your place?

13       A.   Never, not one member of the BH army from anywhere else came to

14    Sovici.

15       Q.   Not even prior to the 17th to help you?

16       A.   No.

17       Q.   Very well.  Now, you still owe me a question, I believe we still

18    have one question unresolved.  Those positions in '93, you manned them

19    throughout, I mean Mackovic, Gruda, Pasje Stijene, Povrsak.  The BH army

20    holds those positions, doesn't it?

21       A.   Mackovic, Duga Gruda, and Povrsak.

22       Q.   Right, right.  These are lines against whom in 1993, March, April?

23       A.   Against the one who attacks us.

24       Q.   And from those three elevations or hills, whatever you care to

25    call them, why don't you control the whole Sovici valley and Blidinje

Page 3420

 1    valley from those positions?

 2       A.   No, no, no, we do not have that kind of armament to control them.

 3       Q.   Very well.  Tell me what is the PAMs range?

 4       A.   5.000 metres, as far as I know.

 5       Q.   And tell me, please, how far is Mackovic or Gruda from Sovicka

 6    Vrata?

 7       A.   Well, four or five hundred metres as the crow flies, 500 metres.

 8       Q.   Now, would you be so kind as to tell us the Blidinje valley, say

 9    at Zenica or Siroki Dolac, how far is that from Mackovic and Gruda?

10       A.   Three or 4 kilometres.

11       Q.   And now, tell me, please, what is the range of the .60 millimetre

12    mortar?

13       A.   Well, about a thousand metres.

14       Q.   You said that your command was at a place called Kamen.

15       A.   I didn't.

16       Q.   If I am correct, you even drew it on that photograph.

17       A.   Then, sir, you misunderstood me.

18       Q.   Yes, that is possible.  I'm sorry then.

19       A.   I said that I went to the command at Begici, which is in the upper

20    part of Sovici, and when I couldn't establish contact, it is then that I

21    went to the position at Kamen.

22       Q.   Fine, fine, I think I got your meaning.  All I wanted was to ask

23    you about that Kamen.  Is that an elevation?

24       A.   It is.

25       Q.   Is it exactly above Croat houses, that is, the Srednja Mahala?

Page 3421

 1       A.   Between the Gornja and Srednja Mahala, there is a --

 2       Q.   Yes, I know, I know, I know.

 3            Now, will you please be so kind to answer me.  This place, Kamen,

 4    is it exactly on an elevation above Croat houses?  Yes or no, please.

 5       A.   Yes.

 6       Q.   Did you have any protection around that command, I mean some

 7    trenches, some machine-gun nests or something like that?

 8       A.   We didn't.

 9       Q.   And Srednja Mahala, tell me, was it protected by trenches on the

10    Sovicka Vrata side?

11       A.   Yes, it was.

12       Q.   Those were the BH army positions, weren't they?

13       A.   No.

14       Q.   Fine.  Now, tell me, you were explaining that there was the

15    Gornja, Srednja, Donja Mahala.  Could you please tell us how many hamlets

16    are there along that line?

17       A.   Quite a number of them.  You want me to list them all?

18       Q.   Yes, will you please be so kind if it is not too much trouble, but

19    do it slowly for the record.  How many hamlets and if you can tell us also

20    which were Muslim and which were Muslim [sic], thank you very much.  I

21    would be most grateful to you, and I believe the Chamber would, too.

22       A.   In Gornja Mahala, you have -- let's make it easier; next to the

23    mosque, Brajkovici.  Then to the left, when you cross over a 100 metres

24    off is Begici, and then Zivkovici.  Above Zivkovici is Lucani, Skenderi,

25    this is the Muslim people.

Page 3422

 1            Cilici, a mixed place, Muslims and Croats.  Srednja Mahala,

 2    Croats.  Mijici, Croats only.  Dolac, mixed Muslims and Croats.

 3    Podrubina, Muslims.  Raici, Croats.  Junuzovici, Muslims.  I believe I've

 4    listed them all.

 5       Q.   Thank you very much indeed.

 6            And all these hamlets are scattered along the road, east and west

 7    of the road, if I can put it that way?

 8       A.   That is correct.

 9       Q.   Only Srednja Mahala is right next to the road, if I saw it well.

10       A.   Well, Srednja and Gornja Mahala for the most part, yes.

11       Q.   Now, if you could tell the Chamber, these hamlets, how far are

12    they from the road as the crow flies, generally speaking?  All those

13    hamlets you just mentioned.

14       A.   Raici, 200 metres.  Junuzovici, 500 metres.  Mijici, next to the

15    road.  Dolac, 300 metres.  Podgradina, 500 metres.  In other words, Kula,

16    I forgot it last time, Kula is right next to the road, houses on both

17    sides of the road.  Srednja Mahala is next to the road, above the road.

18    Donja Mahala is, for the most part, that is, Gornja Mahala, Brajkovici

19    Skenderi and so on and so forth.  Lucani is a hundred metres.

20       Q.   Fine, fine, thank you.  We needed to get a picture because, you

21    know, we haven't been there so that I simply wanted to get the -- as

22    objective a picture as possible.

23            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] It is 1.00.  Everybody is warning me,

24    and I have finished already with the larger part of my questions.  I will

25    continue after the break.

Page 3423

 1            JUDGE LIU:  Thank you.  We will adjourn until 1.30 [sic].

 2                          --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.00 p.m.
























Page 3424

 1                          --- On resuming at 2.38 p.m.

 2            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, Mr. Krsnik, please continue.

 3            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 4       Q.   Witness, would you please be so kind and tell me, what elevations

 5    are Mackovic, Gruda, and Povrsak?  What is their elevation above sea

 6    level?

 7       A.   About 1.000 metres.

 8       Q.   Now, please tell me if there is any fighting going on there,

 9    infantry battles, would that have threatened the population of Sovici, to

10    leave Doljani outside of that for now?

11       A.   Let me please explain what the defence lines were in Sovici, in

12    the village of Sovici.

13       Q.   Please let me alert you to the questions.  Mackovica, Gruda,

14    Povrsak, I am referring to those elevations.  If you have

15    infantry operations there, any fighting going on there, would that have

16    threatened the population of Sovici?

17       A.   Yes.

18       Q.   And Sovici are at what elevation, please?

19       A.   About 600 metres.

20       Q.   Can you now please tell us, how far is Risovac from Jablanica,

21    what is the distance?

22       A.   22 kilometres.

23       Q.   I see.  22 kilometres, and how high is that mountain?

24       A.   I think that the elevation is 800 metres, but it's not a mountain,

25    it's a plateau.  It's a bowl.

Page 3425

 1       Q.   Yes, I know that, but there is -- there are mountains around it?

 2       A.   Yes, there's Cvrsnica, and there's Vran on the other side.

 3       Q.   That's right.  How high are they?

 4       A.   I think that Vran is 1700 metres.

 5       Q.   And Cvrsnica?

 6       A.   A little bit less.

 7       Q.   Today, when you gave your evidence to my learned colleague, you

 8    said that the artillery was firing all over Sovici and that shells were

 9    falling every second, as you put, from 8.00 in the morning until almost

10    5.00 in the afternoon.  Is that what you said earlier today?

11       A.   Yes.

12       Q.   I did a little math.  That would have meant 28.000 shells having

13    fallen?

14       A.   Perhaps even more.

15       Q.   Can you please tell me which houses were hit on that date, the

16    17th, which you could see when you came down that night?

17       A.   When I came down to the hamlet of Brajkovici.

18       Q.   Can you please give us the sort of overall number throughout

19    Sovici?

20       A.   I had no time to review the situation throughout Sovici, but where

21    I came -- I can only tell you about the place where I went to pick up the

22    car.

23       Q.   How many houses are there in Sovici altogether, if you know?

24       A.   About 100, 120 houses.

25       Q.   You mean 100 total?

Page 3426

 1       A.   No, Muslims.

 2       Q.   And grand total?

 3       A.   Two, three hundred.  I don't know.  I've never taken that count.

 4       Q.   Can you now tell me about the mosque.  Was this a mosque or was it

 5    a gazulhana, as Muslims say?

 6       A.   This was a mosque, newly built, and minaret had not been built, so

 7    there was no minaret.

 8       Q.   So how can a person who doesn't know, know that it was a mosque?

 9       A.   There was an old mosque there previously which -- and it was

10    reconstructed and a new one was built.

11       Q.   Could I have known that this was a mosque if I went to Sovici?

12       A.   You could have.

13       Q.   How could I have known?

14       A.   From the shape of the roof, from the entrance door, the door was

15    from the north, and the structure looked like a mosque.

16       Q.   And those were the features that would have made me identify it?

17       A.   Also, there was cemetery around it with headstones which we called

18    basluci, so that would have also been a clue.

19       Q.   Let me take you back to the statements you gave, the one you gave

20    on the 29th of April, '97.  In it, you stated that at Obruc, you were

21    approached by a man who you understood to be a commander.  And that later

22    on, another man arrived in a Patrol make of a car, with a hat on his head,

23    who told you to take your family to Jablanica with you in the car and that

24    the rest should go in a bus.  Is that right?

25       A.   Yes.

Page 3427












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Page 3428

 1       Q.   Did you shake hands when he approached?

 2       A.   No.

 3       Q.   And was the first man who you identified, was he a commander?

 4       A.   He looked like a commander.

 5       Q.   Now, please tell me, what were the insignia that they had on their

 6    sleeves, those men at Obruc?

 7       A.   There were all kinds.

 8       Q.   Now, tell me about that colonel who allegedly questioned you.

 9    What was his name again?

10       A.   Ivan Andabak.

11            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Can we please have the spelling that

12    the witness used, which was "Anderbak."

13       Q.   Witness, you keep repeating "Anderbak."  We speak the same

14    language, I could hear you well.  Do you see that his name was Anderbak?

15       A.   That is how he introduced himself to me.  This is what I stated in

16    my statements.

17       Q.   Will you please spell it for me now.

18       A.   A-N-D-E-B-A-R-K.

19       Q.   What kind of insignia was he -- did he have on his uniform?

20       A.   In the primary school, he used to sit --

21       Q.   No, no, no, that's not my question.  What was the patch on his

22    sleeve?

23       A.   I was too afraid to look so I couldn't see all the details.

24       Q.   Yes, I understand.  But today, you placed him with a Convicts'

25    Battalion.

Page 3429

 1       A.   I said when they were coming out of the house where they were

 2    meeting, they had insignia --

 3       Q.   Who?

 4       A.   Some of them had only HVO insignia.

 5       Q.   Very well.  Let's just deal with them.  Those that you were just

 6    referring to, do you know some of their names?

 7       A.   I know quite a few of them.

 8    Q. Will you please tell us their names, and please go slow for the record.

 9    A.   Stipe Kopilas, Marko Rozic, Juka Groznica, Stipe Pole, Ivan Rogic.

10    Q.   They were wearing the Convicts' Battalion insignia?

11    A.   No, the HVO insignia.

12    Q.   Witness, a moment ago you just said that some had this insignia.

13    What I am asking you -- what I was asking you whether you knew some of the

14    men who had these Convicts' Battalion insignia?

15    A.   Mladen Naletilic, Tuta, Cikota, and the colonel.

16    Q.   Now, what did it look like, this emblem?

17    A. On the sleeve you see it was circular, and it said "Convicts

18    Battalion."

19       Q.   Did it have anything else there in addition to the lettering?

20       A.   Yes, it had a checkerboard.

21       Q.   Was it a full checkerboard or how?

22       A.   I don't know.  I never held it in my hand to see.

23       Q.   Yes, but you said a moment ago that you did not see that on

24    Anderbak?

25       A.   I didn't see it, and in the primary school while he was

Page 3430

 1    questioning, he was sitting at a desk, wearing a sweater.

 2       Q.   Now, tell me, you said that the person to whom you refer as

 3    "Tuta," that he addressed some older man.  What was his name?

 4       A.   Rafo Cvitkovic.

 5       Q.   He was also from Sovici?

 6       A.   Yes.

 7       Q.   The people you listed a moment ago, were they all from the Mijat

 8    Tomic Battalion?

 9       A.   Yes.

10       Q.   Today you said that this was the 3rd battalion -- the 3rd

11       Battalion of what?

12       A. I don't know. I only know that that is how it was called. That was

13    its name.

14       Q.   Was this 3rd Battalion or this Mijat Tomic Battalion – did it

15    belong to the same unit as your battalion? Let's say

16    you were under a mountain brigade, were they a part of a brigade?

17       A.   No, not at Jablanica.  That was the brigade.  That was the brigade

18    that existed in the Jablanica municipality.  It was called – the 3rd Mijat

19    Tomic Battalion.  That was a brigade.

20       Q.   Did you hear of a Herceg Stjepan brigade?

21       A. I had heard about it but I don't know where it was or who was in it.

22       Q.   And do you know what zone of responsibility was of that brigade or

23    of the Mijat Tomic Battalion?

24       A.   I have no idea.

25       Q.   The photograph that you were shown with a house and a fish pond,

Page 3431

 1    you said that that was the HVO command post.  Was that the Mijat Tomic

 2    Battalion command post?

 3       A.   Yes.

 4       Q.   Could you please tell me, and now we're moving down to Doljani

 5    where this command post was, who held the checkpoints on route to

 6    Jablanica, on the Jablanica side, on the Doljani side?

 7       A.   One checkpoint existed at the exit of Jablanica town, which was

 8    manned jointly by Croats and Muslims, by the civilian police.

 9       Q.   Do you know how many troops were there in Jablanica, that is the

10    AbiH members?

11       A.   As I said previously, about 1600.

12       Q.   Can you please tell me, were there not any special units active

13    there, Zulfikar Ali Spago, called "Zuka" and others?

14       A.   No, not while I was there in that area.

15       Q.   And do you know who the president was and whose zone of

16    responsibility Jablanica was?

17       A.   Nijaz Ivkovic.

18            THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter didn't catch the last name.

19       Q.   What about Safet Cibo?

20       A.   Safet Cibo came to Jablanica maybe ten days before the conflict,

21    supposedly to be the president of municipality there.

22            JUDGE LIU:  Well, the interpreter said that he did not catch the

23    last name.  I think in this cross-examination, it involves a lot of names

24    of places and people.  You have to be very careful, and we have to slow

25    down a little bit in your cross with these kind of names.  Thank you.

Page 3432

 1            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  I wasn't

 2    going to interrupt, and also I'm trying to stay focused because I'm

 3    running a high temperature, so if I miss something, I apologise.  I'm not

 4    able to follow completely what's going on, and I thank you.

 5       Q.   We mentioned Safet Cibo last, and I believe it was -- it is not in

 6    the transcript.  Yes, your answer is not in the transcript.

 7       A.   Yes, there was Safet Cibo, Dr. Safet Cibo.

 8       Q.   You said that he arrived just ten days before the conflict?

 9       A.   Yes.

10       Q.   And then you said that he came to assume the post of the president

11    of Konjic and Jablanica

12       A.   Yes, he was told that he had come to become the president of the

13    Konjic, Jablanica, Prozor area.

14       Q.   He was appointed directly from Sarajevo?

15       A.   Most probably, but I really don't know.

16       Q.   And he replaced a legally appointed leadership which was in place

17    until then?

18       A.   I don't know what happened then

19       Q.   On the eve of the conflict in Sovici, that there was a terrible

20    massacre of Croats in Jablanica?

21       A.   No.

22       Q.   Take into account your command position, did you know what had

23    happened to the Croats in Jablanica, that they had been taken to the camp

24    called Museum?

25       A.   What is the period that you are referring to?

Page 3433

 1       Q.   Just before the conflict.

 2       A.   That is not correct.

 3       Q.   Are you trying to say that the camp at the museum did not exist at

 4    that time?

 5       A.   No, not while I was free, while I was still in that area.

 6       Q.   Very well.  Did you hear about places called Orliste and Trusina?

 7       A.   No.

 8       Q.   You do not know what took place there?

 9       A.   No.

10            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] For the record, the spelling for the

11    two places is:  Orliste is O-R-L-I-S-T-E.  The other one is

12    T-R-U-S-I-N-A.

13       A.   These places are not in the territory of Jablanica municipality.

14       Q.   A moment ago you said that you did not hear of those places?

15       A.   The reason is that I was born there, I lived there, and I know

16    that such places -- such place names do not exist in the municipality of

17    Jablanica.

18       Q.   These places are in the Jablanica municipality, and you cannot

19    really say anything about it if you don't know about it, if you are not

20    aware that some of the major crimes against Croats occurred there on the

21    eve of the 17th.  And if you had not heard about it, you must have been

22    informed about some of the events through the briefings at the brigade

23    level?

24            JUDGE LIU:  Yes.  I will give the floor to Madam Registrar.

25            THE REGISTRAR:  Yes.  Excuse me, Your Honour, but there seems to

Page 3434

 1    someone in here with a mobile phone which is allowed -- disallowed in the

 2    courtroom.

 3            JUDGE LIU:  Yes.  Is there anyone with a mobile phone?

 4            MR. PAR: [Interpretation] My apologies.  I was unable to get to it

 5    to turn it off.  Can I please be allowed to leave the courtroom and deal

 6    with this?

 7            JUDGE LIU:  Well, you will have to do that.  It is not allowed to

 8    use a mobile phone in this courtroom.

 9            Yes, Mr. Stringer.

10            MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11            MR. STRINGER:  Mr. President, I had an objection to the last

12    statement of Defence counsel beginning at line 22 of page 72, which is not

13    a question at all but is rather simply a statement and is something which

14    I think is not a proper statement to make to a witness who has already

15    testified he doesn't know about things that may have happened elsewhere.

16    So I object to the statement and I would ask that the Court order that it

17    be stricken or that counsel not continue to make statements of that

18    nature.

19            JUDGE LIU:  Well, we share the view expressed by the Prosecutors

20    on this issue.  It is really not a question; just a statement.  So this

21    paragraph will be stricken.

22            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, with all due respect,

23    I'm sorry that my explanation, if, that is, you allow me to do it, the

24    witness will hear.  And but if I may, I would like to take the liberty to

25    make a very brief explanation; namely, for this Honourable Court to

Page 3435

 1    understand, to really get into the matter, into the events there, since my

 2    learned friend did not bother to provide a broader explanation of things

 3    which preceded some other events, and to my surprise, I always think that

 4    the Prosecutors need be objective. That is, before this Court, if not

 5    before their domestic courts.

 6            The Defence is exerting itself to present to this Court all the

 7    relevant facts about events which took place at that time, at that -- if I

 8    may call it that, that micro site.  Because without it, the truth will

 9    never come to light.

10            JUDGE LIU:  You have to bear in mind, that the alleged wrongdoings

11    of the other side is not a proper Defence for your client before this

12    Tribunal.

13            You may proceed.

14            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

15       Q.   Tell me, please, and I am going back to Obruc now, you said that

16    members of the 114th and 115th Split Brigade were there?

17       A.   That's right.

18       Q.   How do you know at what?  Did it say so on their uniforms or did

19    somebody else tell you or did you find that out later?

20       A.   Yes, they had it on their emblems.  It said 114th Split Brigade.

21       Q.   Was it a Split Brigade or did it just say so, that?  So they had

22    emblems on the uniforms which said that.  Is that what you are saying to

23    say?

24       A.   It is.

25       Q.   Tell me, now, please, how did you communicate from your command

Page 3436

 1    post with soldiers in Sovici and how did you communicate with your

 2    superior command in Jablanica?

 3       A.   I had a portable radio of a rather old age, and I used it to

 4    communicate with the command in Jablanica, then I had four Motorolas

 5    and I used them to communicate with the guards at Brdo.

 6       Q.   And you had no telephones?

 7       A.   No, we did not.

 8       Q.   Motorolas, didn't you have Motorolas to communicate with the

 9    command?

10       A.   We didn't.

11       Q.   And about the soldiers on the positions, you used Motorolas to

12    communicate with them, is that it?

13       A.   It is.

14       Q.   And you received reports about what went on in individual areas

15    where the AbiH had the positions; you were kept abreast of all the events

16    there?

17       A.   I was.

18       Q.   Will you please be so kind as to tell me how many soldiers were

19    there on the positions that morning?

20       A.   You mean all the positions or one by one?

21       Q.   Altogether, how many of them were there altogether, out on

22    positions, and then we can perhaps specify Gruda and others.

23       A.   About six or seven men at each one of those positions.

24       Q.   You mean at Borovnik, at Gruda -- no, sorry, Mackovic, Gruda, and

25    Povrsak, that they were six men to a trench each in each direction, in

Page 3437

 1    each shift there were six or seven men, so three shifts of 24 men?

 2       A.   There were no three shifts; one shift lasted 24 hours.  I changed

 3    them every 24 hours.

 4       Q.   I see.  But in case of a conflict, had the Serbs come or -- how

 5    would you then organise them?  Would everybody be at the position?

 6       A.   Well, then, more or less everybody who was available at the time

 7    would naturally undertake a defence mission.

 8       Q.   And what do you mean "available"?  What else can a soldier do in

 9    case of an attack?  Would he have a day off on the day of attack?

10       A.   Well, if he has come back from a shift, then he should have a day

11    off.  But if there was an attack, then he wouldn't have a day off.  He

12    wouldn't be free.

13       Q.   That's what I'm asking you, because if there is an attack, then

14    there are no more days off.  Everybody has to be on positions.

15       A.   Why, naturally.

16       Q.   Thank you.  I mean, you know, I have to ask you that.  You have to

17    tell me that.  I cannot draw any conclusions myself.

18            So how many men were under arms at that time altogether?

19       A.   In Sovici, as a whole, about 85 men.

20       Q.   You mean in the place, and what about the front lines?

21       A.   Well, in those three places, say -- I would say seven, so in three

22    places, seven men each, so it would make 21.

23       Q.   And these 80 from Sovici, they didn't go over to help out up there

24    because Jesic was up there, if I understood you well.

25       A.   Well, they couldn't come out, they couldn't get out because if

Page 3438












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Page 3439

 1    they were to approach those hills, it was a clearing, so there was no way

 2    in which you could approach them except get killed.

 3       Q.   And what did you do then with 80 men under arms in Sovici?  Did

 4    they wait or what did they do?

 5       A.   Well, they hid, I guess.

 6       Q.   They hid?

 7       A.   Yes.

 8       Q.   They were under arms and they hid?

 9       A.   Yes.

10       Q.   And those 21 men managed to withstand this attack for 10 or 12

11    hours?

12       A.   Well, I suppose they couldn't get through.  Yes, they could, but

13    they didn't.

14            THE INTERPRETER:  Could please the counsel and the witness not

15    speak at the same time.

16            JUDGE LIU:  Well, Mr. Krsnik, did you hear the interpreter?  She

17    is asking you that both the Defence counsel and the witness do not speak

18    at the same time.  You really give a hard time to the interpreters.

19            MR. KRSNIK:

20       Q.   [Interpretation] Tell me, once you were at Obruc, did people talk

21    to you nicely, no problems or anything?

22       A.   No, no, they did not cause any problems.

23       Q.   And they told you to take your family and go to Jablanica, is that

24    it, in that van?

25       A.   Yes, they told me that nobody else could board that van apart from

Page 3440

 1    my family, that I should drive it, and that women, children should take

 2    the bus and be on their way to Jablanica.

 3       Q.   In a statement, you said that there were 30 people in that van.

 4       A.   Yes, I did.

 5       Q.   How big is that van?  Is this a lorry or a bus or what?

 6       A.   It's a van, I think eight plus one seats --

 7       Q.   Eight plus one seats, nevertheless 30 people managed to fit in and

 8    you left with them, towards Jablanica?

 9       A.   Yes.  When I told those who were there to board that van, my

10    family and I, they all wanted to board that same van.  That's why I'm

11    saying there couldn't have been less than 30 people there.

12       Q.   Did you have any problems talking people into surrendering, were

13    people ready to surrender?

14       A.   Yes, they were.

15       Q.   Weren't you accused of treason and surrender and at 5.00 and

16    didn't you run into big trouble because of that because of the fighting

17    had been stopped because you didn't continue fighting?

18       A.   Well, I had nobody to fight with because the soldiers were already

19    capturing civilians and since Sovici is as it is --

20       Q.   No, no, no, I'm asking you about the inhabitants.  I'm sorry,

21    Witness, why you see we do have problems with the interpretation, so let

22    us try to slow down, both you and I.

23            I had to interrupt you because my question was did the soldiers

24    and inhabitants of Sovici accuse you of treason, of betrayal, because you

25    stopped fighting at 1700 and they all wanted to go on fighting?

Page 3441

 1       A.   There were all sorts of stories, but to me, to me personally,

 2    nobody said anything, anything like that.  I mean to my face.

 3       Q.   Weren't you accused by Sovicians that you had struck a deal to

 4    take your family to Jablanica and leave them to their own devices, and

 5    that that was why you surrendered the village, not because you were

 6    weaker, because you had less power and would have failed anyway?

 7       A.   I am not aware of such stories.  I am saying I heard all sorts of

 8    things that I was responsible, and so on and so forth, yes.  They accused

 9    me that I was allegedly responsible because I protected the Croats in

10    Sovici because they never had any problems there.

11       Q.   Well, you mean that Croats had some problems or somebody wanted to

12    cause trouble since you wanted to protect them?

13       A.   No, they didn't really have problems because they didn't want to

14    go to a war.  No, they didn't want to come with us.  They didn't want to

15    be with us, and they said that they could -- they could just sit

16    peacefully, but that they should be left alone and nobody should force

17    them to join the defence.

18       Q.   And tell me, wasn't the Croatian flag burned on Easter '94 in the

19    village of Sovici?

20       A.   Could you repeat that question, please?  I didn't get it.

21       Q.   Wasn't the Croatian flag burned on Easter '93?

22       A.   That's not true.

23       Q.   Do you know that two military policemen from Sovici were killed

24    five days before the conflict?

25       A.   That's not true.

Page 3442

 1       Q.   So Croats had absolutely no problems in Sovici, nobody laid a

 2    finger on them, nobody attacked them, is that it?

 3       A.   That's it.

 4       Q.   Very well.

 5            Tell me, please, who commanded Mijat Tomic?

 6       A.   Stipe Pole.

 7       Q.   And his deputy?

 8  (redacted)

 9  (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12              JUDGE LIU:  Mr. Krsnik, if we come to the part that will

13    identify the witness, we better go into the private session.

14            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Yes, by all means, Your Honour,

15    except that I do not know what the answer will be.  My question was, who

16    is that man?  But yes, I am mindful of that, as you can see.

17            JUDGE LIU:  Thank you.

18            MR. STRINGER:  Excuse me, Mr. President, I apologise for the

19    interruption.  Could we please request that the last answer be redacted.

20            JUDGE LIU:  Sure, sure.

21            MR. KRSNIK:

22       Q.   [Interpretation] Will you please be so kind as to tell me, the

23    second road that you said passed by Junuzovici houses, is it that famous

24    road of salvation, as it used to be called?

25       A.   No, the famous road of salvation went through Sovici.

Page 3443

 1       Q.   Tell me, please, did AID use the -- did the lorry brigade use that

 2    route?

 3       A.   You mean the road passing by the Junuzovici houses?

 4       Q.   I do.

 5       A.   Well, that road was mostly used by the HVO driving to Doljani and

 6    taking that other route.

 7       Q.   But in view of your position, are you aware of the robbing of

 8    those trucks by the BH army?

 9       A.   That is not true that the BH army robbed those trucks on that road

10    because we simply had no control over that road.

11       Q.   And the Croats were -- had absolutely freedom of movement around?

12       A.   100 percent.

13       Q.   I see.  Tell me, please, you mentioned the name Robo.  Could you

14    describe him, please?   Could you tell us what that man looks like?

15       A.   Well, let's see.  He was shorter than I could be, 174/75

16    centimetres tall, nothing much.  He was very loud, and he beat real hard.

17    That is how you could tell him, tell that it was he.

18       Q.   No, I'm asking you what he looked like, the colour of his hair or

19    something else.  You know how one describes a man.  Did he have a beard or

20    didn't he have a beard or something?

21       A.   No, he didn't have a beard.  But I could not really look at him

22    all that often because he would strike me every time I looked up so that I

23    didn't dare look at him.

24       Q.   And after you moved to that bus, that is you said a shift, and

25    then there was a shift and then you went on towards Ljubuski, were those

Page 3444

 1    soldiers, were they military police?

 2       A.   I don't know.  All I know is that when I came to, it wasn't the

 3    same soldiers who had come with us to Sovicka Vrata.

 4       Q.   And to round off this story with Robo, can you describe him to me

 5    or can't you describe him?

 6       A.   Well, I couldn't really describe him 100 percent.  I told you

 7    roughly.

 8       Q.   Right, right.  I must ask you, I think the question is very

 9    simple.  If you cannot describe him, then you cannot describe him, then

10    that's that.

11       A.   Well, I tried to do that as much as I could.  I'm telling you that

12    I never dared look at him because he kept beating me and I had to look

13    down.

14       Q.   Oh, very well.  Can you describe a man who you said was called

15    Cikota?

16       A.   Yes, I could:  black hair, short hair, black uniform, well-built

17    guy.

18       Q.   And how tall, for instance?

19       A.   Well, 178, 179, about my height.

20       Q.   And did you hear that he got killed?  We are talking about the

21    same man, aren't we?

22       A.   Yes.

23       Q.   Where was he killed, what you heard?

24       A.   I think it was the 21st of April when those soldiers came to the

25    Ljubuski camp to shoot us.  They said themselves that he got -- that Tuta

Page 3445

 1    said deputy Cikota had got killed; they would slay us all.  That was on

 2    the 21st.

 3       Q.   On the 21st of April?

 4       A.   That's right.

 5       Q.   I see.  Tell me, please, who was the commander at the Heliodrom?

 6       A.   All I know is who was the police commander at Heliodrom.

 7       Q.   Well, you mean the military police?

 8       A.   Why, yes, that's who guarded us down there.

 9       Q.   Right.  So who was the commander of the military police at

10    Heliodrom?

11       A.   Ante Smiljanic.

12       Q.   Very well.  Now, Witness Y, in the three statements that you gave,

13    in the first statement, you said that you saw Tuta only once when he

14    arrived in an Audi 100.  In your second statement, you said that he came

15     -- that he had come twice, once in Audi 100, and another time that he was

16    doing a round of the cells.

17       A.   Yes, that is correct.

18       Q.   Very well.  That second time that you say that he did a round of

19    cells, you were in the solitary confinement without any lights?

20       A.   That's right.

21       Q.   And weren't you blinded by the light when the door was opened?

22       A.   No, because it is down in the passage, and you have to get to

23    the -- had to come to the door and introduce myself.

24       Q.   In your last statement of the 9th of December, '98, you said that

25    Tuta was there twice, but that he never once visited prisoners, that he

Page 3446

 1    would never move far away from the administration building.  That was your

 2    last -- third and last statement?

 3       A.   That is not true.  I never said that.

 4       Q.   What do you mean it is not true?  You never said that?

 5       A.   I never said that.  I always said that he came twice, first that

 6    he did not visit me, and the second time that he did visit me whilst I was

 7    in the solitary confinement.

 8       Q.   Now, how did it then happen to be in your statement?  Did you read

 9    it?  Did you sign it?  Did you speak the truth?

10       A.   Yes, all that I signed was so, but I'm positive that I never said

11    anything like that.

12       Q.   Witness Y, you signed the statement.

13            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, Mr. Stringer.

14            MR. STRINGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.  Counsel's jumping around

15    between three statements, and my proposal would be for counsel to put one

16    or all of the statements to the witness so that he has an opportunity to

17    know which statement he is being cross-examined on.

18            JUDGE LIU:  That's a good idea.  You have all those statements?

19    Yes, you may show them to the witness.

20            MR. KRSNIK:

21       Q.   [Interpretation] This is your last statement, and it is marked in

22    yellow, what you said, and your signature.  But you can go through the

23    whole statement.

24       A.   Your Honours, I affirm that I never stated this.

25       Q.   But did you sign the statement?

Page 3447

 1       A.   I can't even see my signature here.

 2       Q.   Yes, because the signature is on the original, which my learned

 3    friend has.  But there is a certificate that you signed it.  You can look

 4    at the end.  Will you turn the last page, and doesn't it say, "I sign it

 5    with my own hand"?

 6       A.   Once again, Your Honours, I affirm that I never said this.  It

 7    does say so here, but I do not see a signature.  I do not remember signing

 8    this -- such a statement.  So could anyone please, if somebody has this

 9    statement with my signature, could I please see it?

10            JUDGE LIU:  Well, maybe that's a problem of the language.  I want

11    to know what is the language that is used in the original statement?

12    Maybe Mr. Stringer could help me.

13            MR. STRINGER:  Mr. President, the original language of this

14    statement is French.  It was then translated into English, and from

15    English then into the witness's own language.  So the signatures will

16    appear on the original French version, which I don't have in the courtroom

17    at this time.  And I apologise for that.

18            JUDGE LIU:  That makes things more complicated.

19            MR. STRINGER:  If it would assist, I can stipulate on behalf of

20    the Prosecutor that the statement which we are referring to, which is from

21    December of 1998, is one in which appear the words in the English language

22    "He never came to see the prisoners, but remained near the administration

23    buildings."  I can inform the Trial Chamber that that is the sentence

24    which appears in the English language, which is the -- the English

25    language version, which is the passage that counsel is referring to.

Page 3448

 1            But I don't know if that helps, but we can make that stipulation.

 2            JUDGE LIU:  Well, the problem is that we don't know whether the

 3    three copies with the different languages are consistent or not.  I think

 4    that's the very issue.

 5            MR. STRINGER:  Your Honour, I believe I could get the French

 6    version in the courtroom very quickly, if it would assist in clarifying

 7    the matter.

 8            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, yes, you may.

 9            Mr. Krsnik, while the Prosecutor is getting the original

10    documents, would you please skip this question at this moment and then

11    come back.

12            MR. KRSNIK:

13       Q.   [Interpretation] Witness, in the statement of the 29 April, you

14    also said something about the shift change at Obruc and you were beaten in

15    the mud or something like that.  You remember that you gave that evidence

16    to the Prosecutor, how you heard a voice which later on you identified as

17    belonging to Tuta ordering them to stop it and to move on.  And today, you

18    said that he simply said, "Good, move on."  What is true?

19       A.   I was lying in the mud, and they were beating me.  And somebody

20    said, "It's all right.  We have to move on."  And as I was picking myself

21    up from that mud, I saw that this man was Tuta.

22       Q.   You see, there's a big difference.  In your statement you

23    said, "I heard a man saying 'that's enough.'  Let's move on.  When I

24    looked up, I saw that it was Tuta."  That is your statement given on 29

25    April, '97?

Page 3449












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Page 3450

 1       A.   Yes, yes, that's correct.

 2       Q.   Is that how it was?

 3       A.   Yes.

 4       Q.   So what you said today is not -- it's all right?

 5       A.   You see, in Bosnian, it all depends on the translation.  To me,

 6    it's the same.  "Enough," it's enough, and "It's all right"; both means

 7    stop.

 8       Q.   Witness, you will agree with me, we both were taught the same

 9    language, Serbo-Croatian or Croato-Serb; is that right?

10       A.   Yes.

11       Q.   And you will agree with me that it is not the same to say, "It is

12    enough," and, "It is all right."  I don't know how you would make that

13    equation.

14       A.   When you say something, it's all right, that means that's fine.

15    Or you say, "That's enough," that means that's enough.  At least, to me,

16    that's how it is.

17       Q.   Very well.  The man whom you called -- named Tuta, you saw him

18    briefly there at Sovici, you said it was in front of a building.  Did he

19    ever touch you, did he ever lay a finger on you?

20       A.   No, not me.

21       Q.   Now, let me ask you about the prison in Ljubuski.  Who was the

22    commander there?

23       A.   Prlic.

24       Q.   Was this the military or civilian police?

25       A.   Military police.

Page 3451

 1       Q.   And he was a military police commander?

 2       A.   I guess a military police commander because people said that he

 3    was in charge there.

 4       Q.   Now, tell me about this Ante Smiljanic and about Prlic.  I'm

 5    referring to the Smiljanic from Heliodrom and the military police there.

 6       A.   Yes.

 7       Q.   Did you see anyone else, apart from the military police, that was

 8    dealing with prisoners?

 9       A.   I didn't quite understand the question, what did you mean by

10    that?

11       Q.   Was the military police in charge of the prisoners?

12       A.   Yes.

13       Q.   Tell me, you identified the person whom you called Tuta.

14       A.   Yes.

15       Q.   How old is he, do you think, from his appearance?  How old is he?

16       A.   I believe that he is about 60 now.

17       Q.   And the -- his beard that he used to wear, was it kind of blond

18    like mine?

19       A.   It was about 1 centimetre long.

20       Q.   But was it a colour like mine?

21       A.   Yeah, kind of reddish.

22       Q.   Will you tell us the shape of his frames; was it a full circle,

23    like completely round?

24       A.   Yes, thin arms and fully round.

25       Q.   Tell me, you said that he had a hat.  How could you tell about the

Page 3452

 1    length of his hair?

 2       A.   Under the hat, there was quite a bit of hair down under.

 3       Q.   And what was the colour of his hair?

 4       A.   It was also kind of blond.

 5       Q.   You mean like mine or even lighter?

 6       A.   Well, around there.  I don't know, maybe a little darker.

 7            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have completed my

 8    cross-examination but I would ask that the original statement be provided,

 9    because it is a statement that he gave to the OTP.  All statements were

10    given in the same fashion, with a certification page at the back

11    accompanying all these statements.  So perhaps we can just have that last

12    page, perhaps not even the whole statement, but just the last page with

13    his signature on it.

14            JUDGE LIU:  Thank you.  Do you have anything to say, Mr. Stringer?

15            MR. STRINGER:  No, Mr. President, not at this stage.  When the

16    statement arrives, we can distribute that and, depending on your

17    direction, if you want to give counsel an additional opportunity to cross

18    in respect of the French version, that's fine with us.

19            JUDGE LIU:  Well, I think the only issue is the consistency of the

20    three translations, so this Trial Chamber would like to ask you to furnish

21    the three copies of those statements to the Chamber and to the Defence

22    counsel, and when we evaluate all the evidence, we will take that into

23    consideration.

24            MR. STRINGER:  Thank you, Your Honour.  We will do that.

25            JUDGE LIU:  Thank you.

Page 3453

 1            Any cross-examination from the Defence counsel for Mr. Martinovic?

 2      Mr. Par.

 3            MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 4                          Cross-examined by Mr. Par:

 5       Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Witness Y.  My name is Zelimir

 6    Par.  I am the co-counsel of Mr. Martinovic, and I will ask you some

 7    questions relating to the events which you described earlier today.  And

 8    the first one has to do with your taking part in a group that went to the

 9    Health Centre.  First off, do you know the name of the unit where you were

10    brought there?

11       A.   No.

12       Q.   Do you remember the person who took you from the Heliodrom to that

13    location?  Have you perhaps remembered his name?

14       A.   I don't know.  He was tall, dark, and we were brought there first

15    to Rondo in a TAM truck, and all of those who had been there before to

16    work said that they were going to Stela's.

17       Q.   Could you tell me who those were who went to work there?  Do you

18    have the names of any of these detainees?

19       A.   Yes, I do have a number of those names.  For instance, Hasib

20    Lulic, Enes Kladusak, Helbet, a man called Helbet, Feriz Kovac, Ahmet

21    Kovac.

22       Q.   If you could just keep it slow so that everything can be entered

23    in record.

24       A.   There were other men from the Lulic family.  And I only went there

25    once to work.

Page 3454

 1       Q.   Do you know approximately what day that was; the season, the

 2    month?

 3       A.   I wouldn't be able to recall exactly what date it was.  As I

 4    mentioned several times, I was beaten a number of times, and I could not

 5    keep track of all that, but I believe that that was during the summer.

 6       Q.   You mentioned that you were beaten several times, but on that day,

 7    you were not beaten?

 8       A.   No, no, no, I never said I was beaten up that day.  But no, I was

 9    not beaten on that day.

10       Q.   In the group that went to work with you, was there also a person

11    whose nickname was Tsotsatiki?  Did he leave the Heliodrom along with you?

12       A.   No, as I said previously, when we were made to go behind that

13    wall, they brought him.  Apparently he was sneaking into apartments.

14       Q.   I understand.  He did not leave with you from the Heliodrom?

15       A.   No, he did not.

16       Q.   Have you ever heard of a unit which was named Vinko Skrobo?

17       A.   No.

18       Q.   How about a unit whose name was Mrmak?  How about the unit Benko

19    Penavic?

20       A.   No.

21       Q.   How about a commander nicknamed Baja?

22       A.   No.

23       Q.   At the time when you were leaving the Heliodrom and you were being

24    driven by the soldiers, are you sure that none of these units were

25    mentioned at that time?

Page 3455

 1       A.   No.  But I remembered the person who led us there, but I forgot

 2    his name.

 3       Q.   Very well.  I'll take you back to the map that my learned friend

 4    had given you to look at so that we can pinpoint the location where you

 5    were.

 6            MR. PAR: [Interpretation] I would like to ask the usher to please

 7    give us, again, the Prosecutor Exhibit 14.5.  And I have a fresh copy of

 8    it, actually.  We should probably use the fresh copy so that we can put in

 9    markings.

10       Q.   Please, look at it again.  It's a photograph that you were already

11    shown today and which you also marked today.  That is the location where

12    you were brought.

13            Let me ask you to start by putting a circle around the area where

14    you spent that day, and then we'll move on from there, and mark it with

15    "1."

16       A.   [Marks]

17       Q.   Now, today you mentioned some kind of a wall behind which you were

18    when this incident with Tsotsa took place.  Could you tell me exactly

19    where this wall was?  Can you draw it in this picture and mark it with

20    number "2."

21       A.   I cannot draw it, but it is behind the structure which I circled.

22    It's behind it.  And there was an entrance door leading down to a basement

23    there.

24       Q.   Very well.  We will try to find another photograph where perhaps

25    we will be able to see it.

Page 3456

 1            Were there any trenches, were there any sand bags there?  What did

 2    it look like in that area?

 3       A.   Yes, there were trenches down here.  Here, you see, over here, and

 4    here, and we were brought there.

 5       Q.   Now, about these sand bags, where were they?  Were they next to

 6    the trenches?

 7       A.   Yeah, on top of these trenches.  There were logs, and then they

 8    were on top of these logs.

 9       Q.   Very well.  Now, could you mark with number "2" locations where

10    these trenches and sand bags were.

11       A.   [Marks]

12       Q.   And you said that you saw those bags in another place.  Could you

13    please mark that, also.

14       A.   [Marks]

15       Q.   Very well.  So, let's describe it a little bit.  With number 2,

16    you marked trenches and sand bags which were in front of -- how would you

17    call this structure around which there is number 2?

18       A.   You mean this structure?

19       Q.   Yes.

20       A.   This here was the hospital.  I don't know exactly what this was.

21       Q.   How about the other structure where you placed number 2?

22       A.   I don't know what this structure was.  I only know that this

23    structure on top was the hospital.

24       Q.   I'll show you another map that is a photograph, which is showing

25    the same neighbourhood but from a different vantage point.  Perhaps from

Page 3457












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13   English transcripts.













Page 3458

 1    this photograph you will be able to see and then mark that location.

 2            MR. PAR: [Interpretation] This is Prosecutor's Exhibit 14.3, and I

 3    would like the assistance of the usher to place it on the ELMO.

 4       Q.   Please review it well, try to orient yourself.  See if you can

 5    find the area which we were looking at and disregard the numbers that are

 6    marked there.

 7       A.   Again, you can't see that wall because this wall, it was a wall

 8    that separated that property from the adjoining property.  And it was

 9    perhaps 80 centimetres high, and on top of that was kind of a metal

10    fence.

11       Q.   There's a reason why I kind of insist on this wall.  We need to

12    identify in which unit's zone of responsibility that place was, so this is

13    why I am trying to use these photographs.  Is it the closest to the

14    photograph which is marked number 1?

15       A.   Yes.

16       Q.   How many metres, let's say, that wall was from that structure,

17    from that building?

18       A.   Two to three metres, not more than that.

19       Q.   Very well.  Thank you.

20            On which side of the building?  Is it on the side that we can see?

21       A.   Yes, on the near side.

22       Q.   Very well.  You said, when you arrived there at that location --

23            MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Thank you, we no longer need this

24    photograph.  You can remove it.  Thank you.

25       Q.   So you arrived there and you were met there by some soldiers.

Page 3459

 1    Were you able to recognise any of the soldiers?  Did you know any one of

 2    these soldiers personally?

 3       A.   No.

 4       Q.   At that time, did you know to which unit that belonged?

 5       A.   No.

 6       Q.   How were they dressed?  In other words, were they -- did they have

 7    any insignia that you could notice?

 8       A.   Now I cannot remember.

 9       Q.   Now, the prisoner named Tsotsa, where did you see him for the

10    first time, in which situation?  Where were you in relation to him?

11       A.   We were behind this wall, and they fired bullets above our heads,

12    and then suddenly there was this -- there was these noises.  Then they

13    left us, turned to Tsotsa and started beating him.  And one of them asked,

14    "Where did you find him?"  And he said, "I don't know.  He's sneaking

15    through apartments."  And they went on beating him.

16       Q.   Let me stop you there.  The beatings, did you personally see him

17    being beaten by anyone or did you just hear that, were you behind a wall,

18    personally?

19       A.   I did see it because the wall was behind the building, and we were

20    between the building and the wall.  And they brought him to that area from

21    which we could see that he was being beaten.

22       Q.   Did you know this Tsotsa from before?

23       A.   Yes.

24       Q.   Do you know his full name?

25       A.   I don't know.  We always called him "Tsotsa."  He was a mechanic,

Page 3460

 1    worked for the Igrogradja [phoen] Company.

 2       Q.   Later, did you ever talk with him?

 3       A.   No.

 4       Q.   So if I understood you correctly, they beat him because they had

 5    discovered him somewhere.  What else did they say?

 6       A.   No, they only said that they had found him somewhere and that he

 7    was sneaking around.

 8       Q.   Was he a prisoner or a soldier?  How was he dressed?

 9       A.   He was dressed in civilian clothes.

10       Q.   Was anybody else beaten in addition to him or was he the only one

11    beaten?

12       A.   He was the only one beaten.

13       Q.   Did you recognise any of the soldiers who beat him?

14       A.   No.

15       Q.   Today, you gave evidence that after this event, two prisoners went

16    to pick up a dead body on the Bulevar?

17       A.   Yes.

18       Q.   And you said that this was a prisoner who was killed when trying

19    to escape across the line.  How did you find out about that?

20       A.   This is what the person who was sending those people there, that

21    he had tried to escape, and that he was killed in the attempt, and that he

22    should be brought back.

23       Q.   Were you able to confirm that through anyone else later on?

24       A.   Only then, and also from those two who had brought the body back.

25    They said that they had brought this body back.

Page 3461

 1       Q.   But it was only during that period, and in relation to that single

 2    event that you know about this man.

 3            Now, let me ask you this, do you know what the name of the killed

 4    person was?  Did anybody mention his name?

 5       A.   No.

 6       Q.   Now, did you see when this body was brought, what happened to that

 7    body after those two had gone to collect it?

 8       A.   I don't know after they brought him.  I don't know what happened

 9    to it.  The two of them just said that he was -- that they had brought him

10    back to Liska Street to be buried.

11       Q.   Is that the reason, so that he could be buried there?

12       A.   So he could be buried there.

13       Q.   The location where the body was brought from, did you know that

14    was the line of separation between the Croats and Muslims?

15       A.   I know that the Bulevar was the separation line.

16       Q.   Do you know that UNPROFOR was in charge of collecting bodies there

17    because they were the only ones who had free access to the Bulevar during

18    that period?

19       A.   No, I did not know that.

20       Q.   Do you know whether there is information on who killed this

21    person?  In other words, from which side the fire had come that killed

22    him?

23       A.   I don't know anything about that.

24       Q.   You personally, you never saw the body, you never saw the injuries

25    which the body had?

Page 3462

 1       A.   No.

 2       Q.   Let me now take you to the Rondo.  Because you also mentioned an

 3    incident that took place in front of a building at the Rondo, which

 4    supposedly was a command post of a unit.  Can you describe this building

 5    for me; how many floors, what was around it, was there a coffee bar there,

 6    a restaurant or anything like that.  If you --

 7       A.   There were two buildings there.  From the street leading to the

 8    Rondo, to the right, as you turned, one building is like this, and the

 9    other one is like that.  We were told to sit down and look down in front

10    of it, and then when Tsotsa came --

11       Q.   We will come to that.  But how many floors first?

12       A.   I don't know.

13       Q.   Was it a tall building, a low building?

14       A.   Fairly low.  Three, four, up to five floors.

15       Q.   Next to it or nearby, was there another building?

16       A.   Yes, a similar one, but they were not one by the other.  They were

17    at different angles in relation to each other.

18       Q.   Just the number of floors, you said a minimum of three floors?

19       A.   Yes, a minimum of three.

20       Q.   Now, please, let us look at another map.  This is Prosecutor's

21    exhibit 15.1, but before I hand it to you, I have to tell you that there

22    were some markings made by the Prosecutor, and they have been deleted.  So

23    I will first hand that redacted map to the Prosecution Bench to see

24    whether they have any objections to it before the witness sees.

25            JUDGE LIU:  Maybe Madam Registrar has a clean copy.  We could use

Page 3463

 1    a clean copy.

 2            MR. PAR: [Interpretation] You see, Your Honour, these are

 3    identical maps, and on this copy, the Prosecutor had some markings.  I did

 4    not want these markings to show, so I really -- I deleted it, whited them

 5    out.  And my question is simply to find out whether the Prosecution has

 6    any objections to this redacted map.  If not, we can distribute all the

 7    copies to the parties.

 8            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, Mr. Stringer.

 9            MR. STRINGER:  Mr. President, if we could just take a quick look

10    at the map.  I think there will not be an objection to it, but I would

11    like to...

12            JUDGE LIU:  Sure, sure.

13            MR. STRINGER:  Mr. President, we have no objection to it.  But it

14    does bear a Prosecution exhibit number, which should probably change.

15            JUDGE LIU:  Later on, when this document is tendered into the

16    evidence, we will change a different number for it.

17            Yes, if you could at this moment.

18            THE REGISTRAR:  This exhibit will be D2/9.

19            MR. PAR: [Interpretation]

20       Q.   [Interpretation] Witness, I will now ask you, I see that you're

21    good with maps.  Could you please look at it carefully and find in it the

22    location which you referred to as the Rondo and mark with a pen the

23    building in front of which this incident with Tsotsa took place.  If you

24    can just take time, review it, and then when you are done, we'll have it

25    placed on the ELMO.

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 1            Can you first orient yourself there?

 2       A.   It's not easy to orient myself.

 3       Q.   Can I perhaps help you?  You see the Rondo in the middle.  Can you

 4    see that?

 5       A.   Yes, I do.

 6       Q.   Now, in relation to the Rondo, where approximately in relation to

 7    the Rondo was that building?  And after you've marked it, we'll have it

 8    placed on the ELMO.

 9       A.   [Marks]

10       Q.   If you can't orient yourself, just tell us.  We'll help you.

11       A.   What I'm confused by is these two streets.  There's one that went

12    from up there, and the other one went along the avenue.  This is what

13    makes it problematic for me.

14       Q.   Very well.  If you're confused, it's better that you don't mark it

15    at all.

16       A.   I thought that this was Zagrebiska Street and it should be between

17    that street and this.

18            MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I see that it's 4.00.  I

19    have more questions but perhaps this is the best point to break at today

20    and continue tomorrow.

21            JUDGE LIU:  Yes.  Thank you.

22            And this document should be D2/9 rather than D29, as announced by

23    the Madam Registrar.  And Witness, would you please bear in mind that you

24    are still under the oath, so during this period, you are not to talk to

25    anyone about your testimony, and do not let others talk to you about the

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13   English transcripts.













Page 3466

 1    testimony.

 2            Thank you.  We'll adjourn until 9.30 tomorrow morning.

 3                          --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.02 p.m.,

 4                          to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 9th day of

 5                          October, 2001, at 9.30 a.m.