1 Tuesday, 9 October 2001
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.30 a.m.
6 JUDGE LIU: Call the case, Madam Registrar.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours, this is
8 Case IT-98-34-T, the Prosecutor versus Martinovic and Naletilic.
9 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Par.
10 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
11 WITNESS: WITNESS Y [Resumed]
12 Cross-examined by Mr. Par: [Continued]
13 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness Y.
14 A. Good morning.
15 Q. We shall resume the cross-examination that we started yesterday,
16 and let me remind you that we were talking about events at Rondo yesterday
17 during your testimony. You said that soldier nicknamed Tsotsa was beaten
18 once again. My question is: Did you watch personally as these soldiers
19 beat Tsotsa at Rondo? Did you see that personally?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Can you tell us how far were you and what was your position in
22 relation to that event? Could you see it well or --
23 A. It was 2 or 3 metres ahead of us.
24 Q. Tell us, was Tsotsa taken back to the Heliodrom with you?
25 A. Yes, he was.
1 Q. Yesterday, you repeatedly mentioned the name of Hasib Lulic, one
2 of the prisoners who was with you. Was he present at the event?
3 A. He was.
4 Q. Is Hasib Lulic the person who told you who Stela was?
5 A. That is right.
6 Q. Did he tell you that on site at that same place or did he tell you
7 that later at Heliodrom or wherever?
8 A. He first addressed Stela down there when Stela asked him, What are
9 you doing here? And he said, well, you know, Stela was in Capljina, and I
10 came to see my mother.
11 Q. When did he tell you that?
12 A. He told me that at Heliodrom.
13 Q. That Hasib Lulic, does he know you personally? When we confront
14 him with your testimony, will he remember you, your name, and that
15 incident? Can he confirm all this?
16 A. Yes, he can.
17 Q. And tell me, please, have you been following this case of late in
18 the media, or rather, did you have an opportunity to see Stela's
19 photograph on television or in the papers? Have you been following this
21 A. I know about the case, and I do from time to time follow the trial
22 but I did not see Stela.
23 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I have no
24 further questions.
25 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Stringer, any re-examination?
1 MR. STRINGER: Thank you, yes, Mr. President.
2 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik.
3 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] With your leave, Your Honours, I do
4 not know whether it would be better if I did re-cross first, because we
5 have received the signed statements. It is up to you, Your Honours.
6 JUDGE LIU: Well, up to now, we have not received it yet.
7 Yes, Mr. Stringer. You want to explain this matter to us?
8 MR. STRINGER: Yes, Mr. President. This is a statement. The
9 statement at issue yesterday was dated, I believe, the 9th of December,
10 '98, and it has been now forwarded to the Bench in all three languages in
11 which it exists, French being the original language version.
12 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Krsnik, yesterday during your
13 cross-examination, we have already promised you that when we got those
14 documents, you have the opportunity to cross-examine this witness. You
15 may proceed.
16 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
17 Cross-examined by Mr. Krsnik:
18 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness Y.
19 A. Good morning.
20 Q. Let me remind you, yesterday we talked about your statement that
21 you gave on the 9th of December, '98. You said that you never uttered
22 this particular sentence. I can put it before you, if you want me to, but
23 I suppose you read it yesterday. But let me remind you. It reads as
24 follows: I need to add that through the window of my cell at the
25 Heliodrom, I saw Tuta twice visiting the camp. On both occasions, he
1 would come in a white Audi, accompanied by a soldier. On the first
2 occasion, he was accompanied by Juka. On the other occasion, he was
3 alone. He never visited prisoners. He would stay in the vicinity of
4 administrative buildings.
5 We have received your original statement, and there is your
6 signature here that says that you have read this statement and confirmed
7 it with your signature. Now, will you please tell me, did you speak the
8 truth then, and is that statement in its entirety true, or perhaps isn't
10 A. It is not true that I ever said anything like this. I could not
11 say that I saw him through the window twice. On the first occasion, I saw
12 him through the window but I was on the upper floor, and the second time I
13 was in the prison. I only saw him arrive in Audi 100 on the first
14 occasion when Juka was there, and I never stated what you just read to me.
15 Q. You want to say that this is untrue what it says in your
16 statement. Then how could it then happen?
17 A. I do not know how it could happen, but I never said anything like
19 Q. Now, will you please be so kind and tell me if you read the
20 statement in your language prior to signing it?
21 A. I cannot exactly remember --
22 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Stringer.
23 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, I think in response to the last
24 question, at this point it might be the most fair to allow the witness to
25 look at the document which bears his signature, if he is being asked
1 whether he signed it or not. That's my suggestion.
2 JUDGE LIU: That is a legitimate request. Maybe usher could show
3 the witness the document.
4 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] My apologies, Your Honours. I
5 thought that the witness had the French version.
6 A. It is true that there is my signature in one place. This is my
7 signature. But how that text was changed, I really have no idea.
8 Q. But each one of the pages is signed, and it also says that you
9 read it and confirmed the veracity. So every page is signed, and there is
10 also a signature at the end.
11 A. I cannot remember when I gave all those statements in Sarajevo.
12 One of the statements that I signed, they read it out to me and asked me
13 to sign it, and that is what I did. And when they read it out to me, I
14 thought that it was just as I had said.
15 Q. My last question: Is it your signature on every page, including
16 under the sentence which says that you read the statement and confirm it?
17 Is that your signature?
18 A. My signature is on each one of these pages.
19 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] That will be all, Your Honours. I do
20 not have any further questions. Thank you.
21 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Stringer.
22 MR. STRINGER: Thank you, Mr. President. At this time I would ask
23 the witness be given a copy of his -- a different statement made by him in
24 April of 1997. For the record, I am handing the witness the original
25 English version bearing his signature as well as the B/C/S translation.
1 Re-examined by Mr. Stringer:
2 Q. Now, Witness Y, can you just take a moment to look at those two
3 documents. Let me ask you first this: If you would look at the English
4 version, if you could look at the front page of that and the other pages
5 and tell me whether the English version of your document bears your
7 A. It does.
8 Q. And now, the other document that's in front of you, does that
9 appear to be a translation of your statement into your own language?
10 A. It does.
11 Q. Now, at the bottom of the front page of that statement, it
12 indicates the date of the interview. Do you see that? I'm sorry, on the
13 last page. The last page with the certification, there are dates
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. What are the dates that you see there?
17 A. 29th of April, '97.
18 Q. Now, I would like to direct your attention to page 7 of the
19 Bosnian version of that statement, and I want to ask you if you see words
20 relating to the second visit or a second visit by Tuta, I believe
21 beginning on the fourth paragraph.
22 A. This is a correct statement.
23 Q. Beginning with the words, "The second time I saw him..." could you
24 just read what your statement says.
25 A. "The second time I saw him, while I was in a cell, Tuta was
1 touring the cells, including the cell that I was in. The police officers
2 who were with Tuta opened the door and asked me to introduce myself to
3 Tuta. Tuta then said that the conditions in the cell were better than I
4 deserved. This is what happened while Tuta was there."
5 Q. Okay, now, Witness, your statement then continues with a
6 description of Tuta and I would like you to skip that, and then move
7 down to the second paragraph after that, which begins with the words
8 "Twenty minutes later..."
9 A. You want me to read it out?
10 Q. Yes, please.
11 A. "Twenty minutes later, five more military policemen came, took me
12 out of the cell into the passage, and started to beat me. They beat me
13 with a shovel handle and rubber police batons. They struck me several
14 times, and I began to bleed. I was ordered -- they ordered me to lick the
15 floor because they should not have any balija blood on the floor. Then
16 they struck me with something hard on the head and I fainted. Since then,
17 I have a hole in my head so big that I can put two fingers in it.
18 This statement -- I made this statement to the best of my
19 recollection. If necessary, I am ready to provide further information to
20 the International Tribunal."
21 Q. Thank you, Witness. Now you can set those statements aside.
22 Now, what you've just read, is that your testimony about one of
23 the occasions when you saw Tuta in the Heliodrom?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Witness, I would like to go back and ask you just a few questions
1 about the events in Sovici in April of 1993. On the day of the attack,
2 either the 17th or the 18th, while you were still in the village, was the
3 mosque in Sovici being used by the BH army for any military purpose?
4 A. No, it was not.
5 Q. You were asked about the spelling of the name of the man who
6 interrogated you at the school. Do you recall those questions?
7 A. I do.
8 Q. Did he ever write down his name for you so that you knew precisely
9 how it's spelled?
10 A. No, he did not. He merely introduced himself.
11 Q. To the best of your recollection, what is his name as you recall
12 it, based on the way he said his name?
13 A. I remember that his name was Ivan Andabak.
14 Q. You were asked some questions about possible motives --
15 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik.
16 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] My apologies, Your Honours. I had to
17 rise to the floor because the transcript again has a completely different
18 surname from the one pronounced by the witness. We all heard it very
19 well and I do not think one even needs the interpretation in your
20 headphones to see the difference in the name that was uttered by the
21 witness and the name that figures in the transcript.
22 JUDGE LIU: We have come across this issue four or five times, and
23 Mr. Stringer, would you please ask the witness to spell out that name once
25 MR. STRINGER:
1 Q. Witness, could you please spell the name that we are talking
2 about, as best as you know how to spell it.
3 A. I-V-A-N A-N-D-E-B-A-R-K.
4 Q. You were shown a photograph yesterday of a man who interrogated
5 you at the Sovici school. Do you recall that photograph?
6 A. I do.
7 Q. And the person on that photograph, is that the person whom you are
8 now referring to?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. You were asked yesterday some questions about possible motives why
11 you surrendered the village at 5.00 in the afternoon on the 17th of April.
12 Why did you surrender?
13 A. Because I was asked to turn up at Obruc for negotiations, and
14 unless I did so, the whole population of Sovici would be annihilated.
15 Q. At that moment, did the HVO have the capability to annihilate
16 everyone in the village?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. In Mostar, when you were working in the area of the Health Centre,
19 you were asked about the incident in which two prisoners were sent to
20 retrieve a body that was in the confrontation line.
21 A. That's right.
22 Q. Who directed the prisoners to go retrieve that body?
23 A. Well, I learned it afterwards. At that moment, I did not know
24 what the man's name was. But later on, now I know that it was Stela.
25 Q. At the moment, you didn't know his name. Is that -- did you see
1 that person direct those prisoners to go?
2 A. I did.
3 Q. So is it your testimony you saw a person subsequently known to
4 you as Stela order those prisoners to go retrieve the body?
5 A. That's right.
6 MR. STRINGER: No further questions, Mr. President.
7 JUDGE LIU: Thank you, Witness. Thank you for helping us by
8 giving your testimony. When the usher pulls down the blinds, he will show
9 you out of the courtroom. We all wish you good luck in the future.
10 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honours.
11 [Witness withdrew]
12 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Stringer.
13 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, I have some exhibits to tender at
14 this time. Exhibit 3.3, which is the map the witness made marks on.
15 Exhibit 6.3 is a photo already in evidence, but we would ask that now the
16 revised version which contain the marks made by the witness be admitted as
17 a new exhibit; the same for the photograph which is 8.2, and also the
18 photograph marked as 6.8.
19 We would also tender the photograph Exhibit Number 39, photographs
20 20.2 and 20.11, both of which now contain markings made by the witness;
21 and finally, Exhibit 14.5, the photograph of the Health Centre, which now
22 also contains markings made by the witness.
23 JUDGE LIU: How about that Exhibit 8.8?
24 MR. STRINGER: The Exhibit 8.8, Your Honour, is already in
25 evidence because it's among the first admitted. But this is -- the
1 witness didn't make any marks on that photograph, so I think it's
2 unchanged but is already admitted.
3 JUDGE LIU: Okay. Thank you. Any objections?
4 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] We object, Your Honours, only to
5 Exhibit Number 39. Because that photograph was featured more than ten
6 times. It appeared in all the Croatian papers and other papers across
7 former Yugoslavia, and there is a caption clearly indicating who
8 that man is, so the witness could see this picture whenever he liked, and
9 he saw it, just as all of the people who read and followed the press saw
10 it. And as he himself says that he read the press, and it is quite
11 evident that he has been following this trial, that he knows who this man
12 is, and therefore, the identification of that photograph here, we think
13 that it serves no practical purpose in this courtroom, so that we object
14 emphatically to this exhibit.
15 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Stringer.
16 MR. STRINGER: Yes, Mr. President. First of all, there's nothing
17 in evidence in this case indicating whether or not that photo was
18 circulated in the media. There's no evidence about that, other than the
19 assertion that has just been made by counsel. That's number one.
20 Number two, counsel had ample time and opportunity to
21 cross-examine the witness on that very point and failed to do so. So for
22 those reasons, we tender the document. The witness recognised the person
23 whose photograph appears in it, and we think it ought to be admitted into
25 JUDGE LIU: Well, we believe that -- yes, Mr. Krsnik.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. Indeed,
2 there is surprise, and I cannot really believe that my learned friend says
3 what he says. Is he indeed enlightened about this or did somebody
4 misinform him? I do not know. Of course, I will produce evidence to
5 this, but this photograph was made at the funeral of a Croatian soldier,
6 and it was carried by all the Croatian and Bosnian papers. The defence
7 has these newspapers, we have the originals of these newspapers and the
8 Defence, as I say, will have to do it but, evidently, when our turn comes,
9 we shall have to tender it into evidence with a list of all the names. It
10 is not only this individual who attended this funeral; there were other
11 also individuals apart from the photograph used by our learned friends, as
12 you can see from the exhibits.
13 The magazine which first featured that information is called
14 Globus. It has a very large circulation, very popular, much read in
15 Croatia, but it can obtained both in Bosnia, Serbia, and across the former
16 Yugoslavia. So apart from what my learned friend said, there is only my
17 statement to this effect, we shall procure that magazine too and we shall
18 exhibit it to the Court. Thank you very much.
19 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Par.
20 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] We have no objections to these exhibits,
21 however, I should also like to tender into evidence two photographs and a
22 map that we used. So could the registry please help me with the numbers
23 for the markings.
24 THE REGISTRAR: I believe numbers were given, D2/8 and D2/9.
25 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] And I would like to tender them into
1 evidence. And there was a map which was not marked. That was shown the
2 witness. We asked him to draw something on it. He failed to do so, but I
3 would nevertheless like to tender this map into evidence just to show is
4 the map that he was unable to read. Thank you.
5 THE REGISTRAR: That map will be D2/10.
6 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Thank you. So we would like to tender
7 that into evidence, too.
8 JUDGE LIU: As for the Exhibit P39, which is a photo, this Trial
9 Chamber has made a decision already to admit it into the evidence at the
10 beginning of this trial. So all those documents have been admitted into
11 the evidence. It is the right of Defence counsel to tender your evidence
12 any time you feel it's convenient. It is so decided.
13 So the Madam Registrar will give a proper number for all those
14 documents, I think including that piece of paper with the witness's name
15 on it.
16 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you, Your Honour.
17 Exhibit P3.3, which was the map, is now PP3.3. The annotations
18 made on that map by Witness Y is now PP3.3/1.
19 Exhibit P6.3 is now PP6.3, and the annotations made are -- the
20 Exhibit Number is now PP6.3/1.
21 Also, PP6.8 was already admitted, but annotations were made, so
22 the new exhibit number is PP6.8/1.
23 The same goes for PP20.2; the annotated version is now P20.2/1.
24 Another photo was annotated. That will be PP20.11/1.
25 And one more annotated photo is P14.5/7.
1 JUDGE LIU: How about P8.2?
2 THE REGISTRAR: P8.2 also was annotated, and it should be
4 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
5 So, your next witness, Mr. Prosecutor.
6 MR. SCOTT: Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours. The next
7 witness is requesting protective measures. In fact, he is requesting
8 closed session. So I will tender to the Chamber now the written
9 application, which we can discuss. Obviously, we'll want to -- to discuss
10 it, we'll want to be into private session. So if I can have the usher's
11 assistance, I will distribute these.
12 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Scott, before you go to the substantial
13 issues, can I ask you to file this motion a little bit earlier so that the
14 registrar or the logistic people could be well prepared.
15 MR. SCOTT: Yes, Your Honour. And you're absolutely right.
16 You'll see that it's dated yesterday. I thought we were going to get -- I
17 thought we had a chance we might get to him yesterday afternoon. And it
18 was prepared and, to be honest, at the end of the day, I forgot
19 about it. If the Chamber does grant the protections, the protections
20 requested are simply -- well, are closed session which, frankly, doesn't
21 require -- it's not like voice distortion, it does not require extensive
22 preparation, but I apologise for not tendering it to you earlier.
23 JUDGE LIU: Any objections?
24 MR. SCOTT: There are objections, Your Honour. If I can address
25 it, I'll tell the Chamber the position of the parties. First our
1 position, and I will tell you my consultations with the Defence.
2 THE INTERPRETER: Slow down, Mr. Scott, please.
3 MR. SCOTT: Perhaps, Your Honour, I can go through the motion and
4 state the Prosecution's position. I can tell you that I have consulted
5 with Defence counsel, and then perhaps -- obviously you can hear from the
7 Can we go into private session, please.
8 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We'll go to the private session.
9 [Private session]
12 Pages 3483 to 3493 – redacted – private session.
10 [Closed session]
12 Pages 3495 to 3578 – redacted – closed session.
21 JUDGE LIU: We'll adjourn until 9.30 tomorrow morning.
22 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
23 3.58 p.m., to be reconvened on
24 Wednesday, the 10th day of October, 2001,
25 at 9.30 a.m.