Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 4153

1 Friday, 19 October 2001

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.31 a.m.

5 JUDGE LIU: Call the case, please, Madam Registrar.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is Case

7 Number IT-98-34-T, the Prosecutor versus Martinovic and Naletilic.

8 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Krsnik.

9 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour. I asked

10 for two minutes, or even less, to address you because I feel it is

11 necessary for me to apologise to the Trial Chamber, and to my learned

12 friends, the Prosecutors, for the possible omissions I made yesterday. I

13 didn't do it intentionally. I didn't do it on purpose. I didn't do it in

14 order to create difficulties to my learned friends or to this

15 distinguished Trial Chamber. I did this only because I was guided by the

16 primary concern of not harming my client in any way.

17 I know that I did not have translations into the English

18 language. We did our very best. We found a certified translator, and we

19 have got everything this morning. We have the letter translated and the

20 video transcript. I kindly ask my learned friends to accept my apology

21 and to realise that it was all done with the best of intentions without

22 any ill intentions. Please accept my apology.

23 And now I would like to tender all the copies, all the copies of

24 the translation of the videotape transcript, and also the letter which was

25 only in the Croatian language. Thank you.

Page 4154

1 Your Honours, in order to assist you and in order to assist my

2 learned friends, if they don't mind, I also made an effort to translate

3 the "Glossary of Religious Terms" which was published in Sarajevo in 1999,

4 and it was published by the Religious Council of Bosnia-Herzegovina. If

5 my colleagues do not mind, and if they are not challenging this, I would

6 like to hand this out over -- I would like to hand this out now as well,

7 because it's going to make things much easier when certain terms are

8 referred to in documents, in this videotape and videotapes that may come

9 in the future. If my learned friends from the OTP do not mind, if they do

10 not object to this, I am going to hand in copies. I am going to ask the

11 witness about this book, too, just one question. It's a public book. I

12 mean it was published. So I'm doing this only to assist you, Your

13 Honours, and my learned friends of the Prosecution.

14 THE INTERPRETER: Could the interpreters get a copy, please.

15 Interpreters' note: Could the interpreters please get these

16 documents.

17 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Could I have this handed in

18 immediately. Is that all right? Could I please hear the response of my

19 learned friend from the Prosecution.

20 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Scott, could I hear your initial response to

21 all those documents?

22 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, having just received them, I'm not in a

23 position to make any significant response because I've never seen some of

24 these documents before. We will take a look at them and get back to the

25 Chamber as soon as we've had a chance to study them.

Page 4155

1 JUDGE LIU: Shall we go with the witness at this moment? No?

2 Mr. Krsnik, are we going to have the witness here?

3 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] [no translation].


5 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, it may assist us to make -- to answer

6 the Chamber's questions if we could obtain a bit more information.

7 Perhaps it's on here, and again having just received it just a couple of

8 minutes ago, is this -- is the title of the book, "Glossary of Religious

9 Terms"? And what is the source of the book? What is the publisher? And

10 who authored it? Could we possibly get that information?

11 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik?

12 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] By all means, Your Honour. That is

13 the title of the book. I have the original here in the Croatian. The

14 book is called, "A Glossary of Religious Terms." It was published by The

15 Inter-religious Council of Bosnia-Herzegovina in Sarajevo 1999.

16 MR. SCOTT: Thank you.

17 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honour, by your leave, this was

18 translated by the certified translators of this Tribunal, so that is this

19 additional piece of information. It's quite a big book, but we only

20 wanted to have the most important terms translated in order to facilitate

21 our work. Thank you.

22 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

23 [The witness entered court]


25 [Witness answered through interpreter]

Page 4156

1 JUDGE LIU: Good morning, Witness. I have to remind you that you

2 are still under the solemn declaration. Please sit down.

3 Yes, Mr. Krsnik?

4 Cross-examination by Mr. Krsnik: [Continued]

5 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, yesterday we viewed the

6 tape. Since we have -- we all have the transcript now, could we have it

7 again but with the sound track on?

8 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note that they did not get a

9 transcript; therefore it cannot be interpreted. We are sorry.

10 JUDGE LIU: Did you provide a transcript to the interpreters?

11 Mr. Krsnik? I think the interpreters also need the transcript of this

12 videotape, if you want to have it translated.

13 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I see. We have provided all of this

14 to the lady from the Registry. We gave all our copies to her.

15 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters have just received copies.

16 Thank you very much.

17 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Is it possible to -- for us to see only

18 parts of this video?

19 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I have made an abbreviated version,

20 Your Honour. I gave it to the registrar and to the Prosecutors. This is

21 a longer version, but I did this in order to save time. I'm going to ask

22 the technical booth to play only the first part, which is perhaps of the

23 greatest interest, and my questions will be derived from that part.

24 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Let's play the videotape again.

25 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, too, Your Honour.

Page 4157

1 [Videotape played]

2 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I would like to ask the technical

3 booth to fast-forward the beginning, please. Can we start from here,

4 please. Perhaps a bit more, and could you pause then, please. From here,

5 please. Could we start playing it at normal speed from here, please.

6 [Videotape played]

7 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] Mr. General, the soldiers from the

8 4th Muslim Light Brigade are ready for your ...

9 Soldiers and officers salute to the father land, salute. Tekbir.

10 Alahu egber. Tekbir. Alahu egber. Tekbir. Alahu egber. Tekbir. Alahu

11 egber. [Arabic phrase] Allah wo lala, Mohamed dires a lala, mahas dires a

12 lala, Allah do hala, Mohamed dires a lala [phoen].

13 To the left, to welcome the war banner.

14 Welcome to all of those who have come to Jablanica, to a free

15 Jablanica, to join this big celebration of lining up the 4th Muslim Light

16 Brigade of the 4th Corps of the Army of the Republic of

17 Bosnia-Herzegovina. Thank you all, all of those who have come to stand

18 before the best men of this corps. Thank you to all who have come to

19 share with us this great joy and this truly solemn moment. Salem alejkum.

20 I will start with Sura verse from the Koran. Allah truly loves

21 those who fight on his path, and they are like a solid construction,

22 meaning that they are unbreakable, that they are impenetrable. Following

23 these words from the Koran, only one dawning on the battlefield on Allah's

24 path is better than the world or all that is in it, or as it says in the

25 second part, it is better to have ibadet for -- than 60 years. And

Page 4158

1 following this Koran teaching, the 4th Muslim Light Brigade was formed and

2 became stronger and is still growing in strength and still operates in

3 this area. I'm sure that you will obey those orders and regulations in a

4 disciplined manner and that you will remain an example of what an army

5 should be like and what the army's elite units should be like.

6 It gives me particular pleasure to introduce the Herzegovina

7 Mufti, Hadji Seid Efendi Smajkic, who will take the floor.

8 Dear and honoured brothers, dear soldiers, dear officers, it is my

9 great honour in this mubarek month of Ramadan, which is the symbol of our

10 greatest victories of Muslims through history, to greet and extend my

11 selamet to our dear soldiers who insallah will carry the greatness of our

12 religion and the glory of our state of Bosnia-Herzegovina through this

13 area for which they will fight as they have shown in their battle so far.

14 I invite the emir of the 7th Muslim Glorious Mountain Brigade, Mahmut

15 Efendija Karalic, to take the floor, please.

16 Dear lads, we did not find it difficult to come this far and meet

17 you today at this celebration of yours since we are bound by the same

18 goals and duties. The first and basic aim is the protection of din and

19 Islam in these areas; secondly, the protection of the honour and dignity

20 of the Muslim people and our own homes.

21 We know that we are a small nation, that we are bare-handed, if

22 you like, that we are a people without a military tradition in this area,

23 because there were very few of our people, our officers, in the former

24 JNA, who could progress. Why? Now we find out why. Both the 7th Muslim

25 Glorious Brigade and the 4th Muslim Light Brigade and all other Muslim

Page 4159

1 brigades go into battle with those aims. They go to battle, their basic

2 weapons being the prayer rug and prayer and only then the things they

3 have. That is why success is inshalah inevitable. However, brothers, the

4 other units of other army are all of -- consisting of Muslim soldiers.

5 They all have shehadet, the truth in their hearts. Something that

6 somebody said previously, someone sends more and someone less, and in that

7 sense there is less success, but I hope that to us that we have no

8 alternative here in Bosnia. Unless we return to an our traditions and

9 unless we gain military strength, we cannot survive in these areas.

10 In order to be militarily strong, we must return to our source, to

11 our tradition, religion and culture. On that note, I congratulate you and

12 my wish is that Allah may help you in your future battles.

13 Dear delegates of the Bosniak Muslim people, I personally believe

14 that for us the time that we are ashamed of what we are and where we come

15 from has long passed; therefore, as soon as possible, we realise who and

16 what we are, what generation we are, what is our spirit, then I'm sure

17 that we will faster overcome the crisis in Bosnia and Herzegovina and the

18 crisis among the Muslim Bosniak people.

19 Therefore, soldiers, officers, do not be ashamed of what you

20 really are, and we are, to put it simply, Bosniak Muslims. We are

21 fighting for the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina. We are fighting for the

22 Bosniak Muslim people . We have told you this a thousand times, that in

23 the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina there is room for all, but we have also

24 told you that there is no room in the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina for

25 those by name and surname regardless of the fact that they are Bosniak

Page 4160

1 Muslims if they do not consider the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina and

2 the Bosnian Muslim people as their own. Therefore, for us they are

3 traitors, and we have during this battle, this revolutionary battle, and

4 patriotic way in the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina and the Bosniak

5 Muslim people met with such individuals.

6 The president of the presidency of the Republic of

7 Bosnia-Herzegovina, Mr. Alija Izetbegovic.

8 In the name of Allah, merciful and gracious, the Republic of

9 Bosnia-Herzegovina, the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, the 4th Corps, the 4th

10 Muslim Light Brigade. Honourable Mr. President, it is human, military and

11 patriotic that from this solemn position, this solemn lining up of our

12 brigade, we address you in this way. This historic moment, this formation

13 before us, obliges us for something like this, because we consider you as

14 part of this brigade. Above all, a man who, through his effort,

15 contributed that today on the 10th Ramadan of 14, 15, on the 9th February

16 1995, the 4th Muslim Light Brigade with their heads held high proudly

17 stands here before us, its people.

18 We, the Mujahedin of the 4th Muslim Light Brigade, together with

19 all other patriots of our state, from the first day of aggression against

20 our country, we stood up to the tormentor and enemy with our arms and our

21 lives, and now for three years we have been defending, liberating our

22 country, protecting our people from total destruction. Our Mujahedin have

23 spilled their blood on many a part of Bosnia-Herzegovina. The blood of

24 our shehids in the -- tinted both Butmir and Kijevo and Kotorac and

25 Ljubina and Bijela Ljeska and Bjeljevice and Ivan. Our state is the whole

Page 4161

1 of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and this is the zone of responsibility of our

2 brigade.

3 A large number of our Mujahedin have been forced from their

4 homes. They have lost their dearest. They were humiliated and

5 mistreated. Our struggle is a struggle for our return to our homes but

6 also a return for all of those Bosniak Muslims who have been scattered

7 around the world by the enemy. Our struggle is a struggle for the dignity

8 of the Muslim people, for its freedom, its religion, our only homeland,

9 Bosnia and Herzegovina.

10 Mr. President, rest assured that the gazie of the 4th Muslim Light

11 Brigade know nothing else but to march forward and only forward with the

12 name of Allah dzelasunum on their lips and the rifles in their hands,

13 because we thank -- thanks be to Allah dzelasunum have the will and kuhvet

14 to continue to fight for our homeland and our people and that we will

15 never think of surrender and give up on our honourable heroic fight.

16 We want to let you know, Mr. President, that we know that battle

17 ask our only destiny and only through battle can we return the dignity to

18 our people and freedom to our country. We are, therefore, not afraid of

19 death and the honourable path of Allah and we will never surrender. Know

20 this: As long as there are mujahedin of our brigade, while there are

21 mujahids throughout our state the Bosnia and Herzegovina, as long as there

22 are soldiers of the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina, the battle continues.

23 We are ready for it and impatiently waiting for the resumption of military

24 activities for the final liberation of our country.

25 Your efforts and the efforts of your associates, like the current

Page 4162

1 battle of the 5th Corps of the army of the Republic of Bosnia and

2 Herzegovina, are a higher imperative at this moment. With faith in the

3 dear Allah dzelasunum, we are following the path of freedom, justice and

4 prosperity. We ask the sublime Allah dzelasunum to help us in the battle

5 for freedom for Bosnia-Herzegovina and to give you health and the strength

6 to persevere along the paths of truth. Victory or death, [Arabic phrase]

7 Al salam ou alaykum el ekmitutam el bekiatum [phoen].

8 Attention: Line up right. Attention: To salute the war banner,

9 turn your eyes right. Eyes left.

10 All of these are soldiers who have in the past three-year war

11 grown into capable officers with the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina. They

12 have left many battles behind. They keep going on with the help of

13 Allah.

14 Now we are introducing the 1st Squad of the 3rd Infantry Company

15 who in the marching competition notice 4th Corps zone of responsibility

16 have won the first prize.

17 Get up army. It is sabah. It is prayer time. We are going to

18 the camps and then to the graves. We are all the Jihad army. Victory is

19 sweet. We will kill the enemy. Less Chetniks will fall. All will be

20 volunteers. Our guys will break you. Let them know this too. We'll

21 kill. Allah cursed him. Passing by is the 1st Infantry Company headed by

22 Mujo Vrkic of the 4th Light Brigade.

23 It is the 1st Infantry Company headed by Mujo Vrkic, the 1st

24 Infantry Company of the 4th Light Brigade.

25 The 2nd Infantry Company, headed by its commander, Saldo Spago.

Page 4163












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 4164

1 Salute to the left.

2 The 3rd Infantry Company, headed by its commander, Muhamed

3 Hodzic.

4 These are mostly lads who finished their training in the recruit

5 teaching centre, training centre, of the 4th Corps of the army of Republic

6 of Bosnia-Herzegovina in Bradina.

7 The 4th Infantry Company, headed by its commander, Mehmed Lijevo.

8 The 5th Infantry Company, headed by its commander, Hamdija

9 Jelovac.

10 This is the famous MOS from Mostar who defended Mostar in Santic

11 Street and contributed to the survival of the Bosniak Muslim people in the

12 Mostar area.

13 I now invite the choirs from Konjic, Jablanica, and Mostar to

14 perform an appropriate art and cultural programme prepared for this

15 celebration, the celebration of the 4th Muslim Light Brigade. Please, go

16 ahead.

17 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Yes, I think this is enough, Your

18 Honours. I do not think that the rest of the tape is relevant. May I now

19 cross-examine the witness.

20 Q. To begin with, good morning, Witness.

21 A. Good morning.

22 Q. Now, I would like to ask you some questions, and I should like to

23 ask you to help us distinguish certain terms. To begin with, do you know

24 about this "Glossary of Religious Terms" which was issued by the

25 Inter-Religious Council of Bosnia-Herzegovina in '92?

Page 4165

1 A. I do.

2 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us what does the word --

3 A. Well, if you have it there, right, tell me.

4 Q. Well, not all terms are here. We do not know what is "shekhadet"

5 in the heart?

6 A. It means carry within one faith in God.

7 Q. And what does "mujahid" mean?

8 A. Combatants, fighters. Nothing else.

9 Q. Nothing else. I see. And what does "jihad" mean?

10 A. Well, that would take a longer explanation.

11 Q. Can you tell us in a few words, please.

12 THE INTERPRETER: Will the counsel and witness pause between

13 question and answer, please.

14 A. "Jihad" both as a term and the substance of this word means

15 struggle, struggle for the state, for the survival of the state, the

16 struggle for one's faith and its survival, the struggle for the survival

17 and preservation of life. It is struggle for the preservation of property

18 and struggle for the preservation of honour, of honour and dignity. These

19 five factors. These are in the briefest possible terms. If any one of

20 these are threatened, then the struggle becomes a separate condition.

21 Q. Is it the struggle on Allah's path, or you say that we, mujahid,

22 we liberate Bosnia-Herzegovina, and you mean also liberation for Serbs and

23 Croats, too? Or is the jihad only the struggle along the Allah's path?

24 A. It need not be. Jihad doesn't have only this religious aspect.

25 I've just listed you five basic factors for which one needs to fight. And

Page 4166

1 if you fight for any one of these factors, when they are in danger, then

2 this is the -- then this is jihad.

3 Q. This word -- another word is often mentioned. Let me just --

4 A. May I make another explanation?

5 Q. Yes, please.

6 A. Another explanation regarding Jihad which goes beyond war and

7 which is considered the strongest Jihad of all, that is, stronger

8 participation in offensive operations, is the struggle. That is how Islam

9 defines it: It is the struggle with one's own negative instincts with

10 one's own animal passion. It is the struggle to have the noble, the

11 generous side of the human being win.

12 Q. Thank you very much.

13 And now my last question: If one says that we are off on a jihad

14 for the state -- for instance, in Croatia -- for instance, Muslims in the

15 Republic of Croatia, in the state of Croatia, it has nothing to do with

16 other Muslims, or does it? Because this is jihad for Croatia only. Is

17 that so?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And tell me, please, did you or this army of Bosnia-Herzegovina

20 receive support from soldiers or mujahid? We have just heard that that

21 word means "combatants" and nothing else but, even though there is another

22 interpretation, that they are God's warriors, that they are holy

23 warriors. Would you agree with that, because there is such

24 interpretation?

25 A. Well, yes, depends on how you interpret the term.

Page 4167

1 Q. I apologise. You do not have this glossary before you, but may I

2 read out to you what the glossary says about the "mujahid." "Mujahid," it

3 says, is a person who makes a spiritual, intellectual, or physical effort

4 to promote good, fight against evil - and I can't really see - and defend

5 the rights of every man to practice Islam freely with no hinderance.

6 Colloquially, this is a warrior on God's path. So that is it, isn't it?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. So did the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina receive assistance from any

9 other countries, from any foreign countries, both in terms of troops, that

10 is, mujahids, and financial support?

11 A. Yes, it was supported financially and with a small number of

12 combatants, very limited number, as far as I know. I, of course, am not

13 the most competent person to speak about that. I'm simply voicing my

14 view.

15 Q. I asked you that because you said yesterday that the HVO was

16 receiving foreign support and that was why the aggression took place.

17 Now, if the BH army was also supported from outside by foreign

18 combatants, does it mean that Iran or Iraq committed an aggression against

19 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

20 A. I think that question is out of place.

21 Q. But you forced me to ask this question because that is what you

22 said yesterday. I simply tried to draw a parallel. I apologise. I was

23 not trying to ask you any "out of place" questions. What I meant was

24 support to the HVO from Croatia, from the Croatian state.

25 A. Absolutely, that is a different state, just as the combatants who

Page 4168

1 joined your army, the BH army, came from other states. They did not come

2 from the Bosnia state. They came from other countries.

3 Q. So my question is perfectly logical. But well, never mind.

4 A. But people, members of foreign legions from all over, joined the

5 HVO.

6 Q. Well, now, you've just confirmed what I'm trying to say. It was a

7 conflict within Bosnia-Herzegovina?

8 A. No, sir, it was not a conflict within Bosnia-Herzegovina.

9 Q. Fine.

10 Tell me, please, now that we've seen these images, I do not

11 know -- and perhaps I missed it because the copy is not good. But the

12 other day when I watched it at home, I did not see the flag of

13 Bosnia-Herzegovina anywhere. All I saw were the banners which the

14 soldiers had. Yes, I think that on the days, I believe -- yes, I think

15 was this flag, if I am correct. But the troops never had the flags of

16 Bosnia-Herzegovina; they are all flags -- if I understand it well, and you

17 will help me, they all had inscriptions from Koran. Is that correct?

18 A. It is a manifestation. It is a sentence which says that there is

19 no God but God, no Allah but Allah. And excuse me, I did spot the flag of

20 Bosnia-Herzegovina. And don't forget, after all, that we watched the

21 march of the Muslim Brigade. I mean, it is called the Muslim Brigade.

22 Other units, other units, units which --

23 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Scott.

24 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, sorry to interrupt, but the transcript

25 is amiss. Again, it has statements from counsel being attributed to the

Page 4169

1 witness, and I think in some potentially important respects. For

2 instance, it has attributed to the witness's answer that the troops never

3 had the flags of Bosnia-Herzegovina. I'm confident that this witness did

4 not say that, but again, we're having problems with the transcript.

5 JUDGE LIU: Yes, I think we have problems that sometimes the

6 questions and answers mingle together. Maybe --

7 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] No, no, no.

8 JUDGE LIU: -- you could clear it up for us.

9 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I apologise. I said here on this

10 videotape. I did not go beyond videotape.

11 Q. Remember that I asked you that?

12 THE INTERPRETER: Witness confirms.

13 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

14 Q. And the witness said that he thought he had seen the flag.

15 A. I did see that flag, but I wish to remind you that this is the

16 4th Muslim Brigade and these are its symbols.

17 Q. Tell me, this Mr. Halilovic who was all in black, he is an imam or

18 hodza; he is a cleric, isn't he, if I may translate it?

19 A. He was an imam or hodza, but he quit the service in the Islamic

20 community and joined the army.

21 Q. And which year is it that he became an active soldier?

22 A. I think from the very beginning of the aggression against

23 Bosnia-Herzegovina, because he is a man from Zepa, from the Drina Valley

24 and so on and so forth, where people were victimised. I know it because

25 at that time, he worked under me. And he said he wanted to quit the

Page 4170

1 religious service and devote himself to the defence of the state. So he

2 became a professional.

3 Q. I asked you that because yesterday, when I asked you if from your

4 area, from the territory under your jurisdiction, there were any imams or

5 hodzas in the army, and your answer was yes. But you said today you did

6 not say that he became active.

7 A. Well, this is my full answer.

8 Q. I see. Tell me, is the duty of a hodza or imam compatible with

9 such a commitment, or is it a normal thing in Islam?

10 A. Well, one couldn't do both things simultaneously, because --

11 Q. All right, all right. We get the point. And tell us, Efendi

12 Karavelic, is he a hodza? -- that is, that other gentleman from the 7th

13 Muslim Brigade, the one with the beard who delivered the speech.

14 A. Karalic.

15 Q. I'm sorry, Karalic, Efendi Karalic, is he a hodza, too?

16 A. He was a medresa teacher, which is a secondary religious school in

17 Sarajevo. And in the early days of the aggression of Bosnia-Herzegovina,

18 he also quit that service and joined actively the struggle.

19 Q. As far as we heard it, there was no speech between them - and you

20 told us there was - between 4th light and all the other units, 4th and the

21 7th Brigade. That is, all members of the Muslim army, they are all on the

22 days, you all carry shekhadet in your heart, and so on and so forth.

23 So one is emir, another one is a brigade commander, a commander.

24 He even calls traitors those Muslims who do not accept such an army of

25 Bosnia-Herzegovina, and the name of such one is Drekovic. The commander

Page 4171

1 of the 4th Corps said that those who did not accept such army of Bosnia

2 and Herzegovina were traitors.

3 A. I do not think you are interpreting it right, sir, because if you

4 want an explanation, the men arrived from the area of the 5th Corps from

5 Krajina where some dissident forces, Bosniak forces, were cooperating with

6 the enemies of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and that is what he had in mind.

7 Q. Right. Never mind.

8 Tell me, did all the Muslims in Herzegovina agree with such an

9 army of Bosnia-Herzegovina? Will you answer this question, first: Did

10 all the Muslims agree with such an army of Bosnia-Herzegovina in late '92

11 and early '93 at the time of its formation? And it says here that they

12 are all combatants of the Grija war [phoen]. This is '95. So that is all

13 combatants date back to '92, and all their officers, too.

14 A. The wartime events and the circumstances under which these

15 combatants matured made of them what they are. At the outset, no doubt on

16 many occasions, the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina was quite different from

17 the one that we just saw.

18 Q. My question is: Did all the Muslims in Herzegovina embrace such

19 an army? That was my question. And you gave me a different answer. So

20 will you please --

21 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Scott.

22 MR. SCOTT: Excuse me, Your Honour. I don't understand what that

23 question means. Agreed with such an army? Such an army as what? That

24 there was an armed Muslim force defending? What is "such an army"?

25 JUDGE LIU: Yes. I have the same doubts, Mr. Scott.

Page 4172

1 Maybe you could rephrase the question to make your question more

2 clear to us.

3 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] My question will be very clear. I

4 thought it was clear already.

5 Q. Did all the Muslims in Herzegovina agree with the formation of a

6 religious army, the army of the Muslim people rather than the whole of

7 Bosnia-Herzegovina, the army of one party? Is my question now clear? And

8 you can answer whatever you think is right.

9 A. Of course they did not because the circumstances were different.

10 Q. Tell me, please, didn't the commander of the general staff of

11 Armija Bosnia-Herzegovina, Sefer Halilovic, quit the army sometime I

12 believe end of May '93 because he disagreed with those principles that I

13 mentioned earlier?

14 A. I am not aware of that. Mr. Halilovic is in the Hague, so it is

15 best to ask him. He will know the explanation.

16 Q. Thank you very much.

17 Just one more question. Mostar MOS, M-O-S, was mentioned here.

18 Can you tell us, what is MOS?

19 A. It is a small unit which made part of the Mostar Brigade. I think

20 it is a company, a company strong group of guys.

21 Q. Excuse me, what does the acronym "MOS" mean?

22 A. Muslim Armed Forces.

23 Q. Thank you.

24 Tell me, are you aware that your highest religious leader,

25 reis-ul-ulema Mustafa Ceric, on the 26th of May, '93, on Radio Sarajevo

Page 4173

1 proclaimed a jihad saying the holy war of Islam against the infidels. Are

2 you aware of that?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Did you ever make any statements on television?

5 A. No, not in that sense.

6 Q. And in the sense of the imperial role of the Catholic church?

7 A. I don't remember.

8 Q. Fine. If you don't remember, you don't.

9 A. Possibly. During the war, many correspondents came. When did

10 they say what? It is possible that, in that sense, in view of the role of

11 the Catholic church, it is possible that I did say something, but now I

12 simply couldn't say with certainty.

13 Q. My question is: Did you, with the money that you received from

14 the SDA, form a unit made of refugees from Gacko and Nevesinje and headed

15 it personally, a unit which was called Sargani?

16 A. I never received any money from the SDA, nor was I a part of

17 Sargani. I have already said that I did not participate in any units. I

18 was simply a man exercising, discharging, this office, a man of my

19 profession.

20 Q. Were you aware of an independent unit called The Muslim Forces?

21 A. You need to say something else.

22 Q. That's its name, The Muslim Forces. It's an independent unit, The

23 Muslim Forces.

24 A. Excuse me, did it operate in Mostar?

25 Q. Yes, yes. In Mostar, and under your patronage. If you know about

Page 4174












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Page 4175

1 it, fine; if you don't, you don't. As a matter of fact, you established a

2 commission that had to deal with how many weapons you had?

3 A. This unit grew into it. There were a few young men there who

4 wanted to establish a unit of that kind and it grew into MOS. That is

5 MOS.

6 Q. Oh, I see. That is MOS. And now, could you please tell me

7 whether you were in Mostar from April until June 1992, that is to say, at

8 the time of the Chetnik aggression?

9 A. Yes, I was.

10 Q. You didn't go anywhere from Mostar? All that time, throughout

11 that three-month period?

12 A. From April until the liberation of Mostar?

13 Q. Yes.

14 A. I didn't go anywhere, except to Split or something.

15 Q. All right.

16 A. I didn't go anywhere. I'm surprised. How do you come up with all

17 these things?

18 Q. Well, I'm asking. I'm asking. I'm asking whether you went

19 anywhere, and you say you didn't go anywhere, and I thank you for your

20 answers.

21 A. All right.

22 Q. Please be so kind as to tell me, your muftiluk was actually

23 stationed in the students' dormitory. Were there Kandis [phoen] and were

24 Dzuma and Bajram Namaz celebrated there at that time? I'm talking about

25 1992 and Bishop Peric and everything, remember. Were conditions created

Page 4176

1 for your religious services? Was it possible for you to carry out your

2 religious services? Did anybody ever stop you from doing that?

3 A. At the students' dormitory, we had an adapted gym. The gym was

4 actually adapted into a praying area, and we were unhindered. However,

5 people who went to the mosques in Balinovac and Pijesak, when it was

6 Bajram, had some unpleasant things happen to them.

7 Q. Do you know that Catholic priests also had problems when they went

8 to conduct religious services in East Mostar?

9 A. I'm not aware of that.

10 Q. Do you know Mr. Vukcic, the parish priest, who on the evening of

11 the 8th of May, 1993, who had something happen to him? Actually, the

12 Muslim forces barged into his house, which was by his church, and detained

13 him in East Mostar. So that happened on the evening of the 8th of May.

14 A. I am aware of this case. I am --

15 Q. Thank you. Well, go ahead, go ahead. I'm not going to stop you.

16 Please say whatever you feel you should say.

17 A. It was not on the 8th of May. It was when the Croatian offensive

18 started, on the 9th of May. So the soldiers of the army crossed the

19 Bulevar line and in that house where the Bishop's Caritas was -- I mean

20 they came to that house, and they took Mr. Vukcic, and they took him with

21 them in order to save his life. That's what I know.

22 Q. Oh, very well.

23 A. He was not in any kind of detention or prison. He was staying

24 with a very respectable man of ours, at his home, at this respectable

25 man's home, until conditions were right for his return to the west part.

Page 4177

1 That is what I know, and that is what is certainly the truth.

2 Q. Could you please explain this to us? The army of

3 Bosnia-Herzegovina crosses the line of the Bulevar, gets to West Mostar -

4 all of that is West Mostar, by the way - to save his life from whom? I

5 mean, a Catholic parish priest, the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina is trying

6 to save a Catholic priest's life, from whom?

7 A. Sir, I'm going to give you accurate information so that you know.

8 From the 9th of May onwards, there were large-scale attacks against the

9 western part of town.

10 Q. Excuse me, may I interrupt you?

11 A. Do not interrupt me.

12 Q. But please answer my question. My question is very simple. Who

13 were they saving his life from?

14 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Krsnik, you have to be very patient.

15 MR. KRSNIK: I am patient.

16 JUDGE LIU: You have to be very patient. Let the witness answer

17 the question first. Yes, you may continue.

18 A. In the offensive that was launched by the Croatian side, the units

19 clashed at the Bulevar and Mr. Vukcic happened to be in that whirlpool.

20 And now our units, in order to protect his life, and in the meantime, the

21 Croat forces were advancing and they pushed back the army of

22 Bosnia-Herzegovina, and they took with them Mr. Vukcic, and they provided

23 accommodation for him, lodgings. So I assure you, I give you my word of

24 honour, that he was not in any kind of detention or prison.

25 Q. And tell me, this statement that he gave to Radio Mostar, I mean

Page 4178

1 when he was in detention, again, are you going to give us your word of

2 honour that this was voluntary, this, what was done by this priest,

3 Vukcic?

4 A. I did not hear his statement.

5 Q. Oh, you didn't hear it? And now, tell me --

6 A. What did he say?

7 Q. In your letter to Bishop Peric, you are talking about this

8 statement given to Radio Mostar, do you recall that?

9 A. I can't recall every little detail. It is quite understandable.

10 But I know the event itself. I can tell you about it from the beginning

11 until the end.

12 Q. Very well. Thank you. Yesterday you said that it was only

13 Muslims who were waiting in lines for aid at Caritas and that Croats

14 awaited it at home, at their homes. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you did

15 say something to that effect, didn't you?

16 A. I did not say it that way. I did say that particularly at the

17 beginning, from April onwards, that there were people belonging to all

18 ethnic groups but that most of them were Muslims. However, since that

19 situation later changed, according to the concepts of leaders and

20 politicians, people who were waiting in front of the church were mostly

21 Muslims. And later, considerably later, we can say from January 1993

22 onwards, Croats or Catholics received parcels at their home addresses - I

23 know that for sure - and the Muslims remained standing there, hanging out

24 in front of the church.

25 Q. So you do not know that Muslims came by name and surname and that

Page 4179

1 there were lists for every month, and not a single list was shorter than

2 3.000 names, and they would come directly to Caritas or they would have

3 parcels sent to their homes because there was no need to wait for aid?

4 A. I know that most people had to ask for this and to wait in long

5 lines in front of Caritas.

6 Q. Very well. Do you know a saying from those days, that everybody

7 was saying in Mostar, both the Muslims and the Croats, "The HVO is

8 defending us, and Caritas is feeding us"?

9 A. I know that, but I want to explain what it means. It means heaven

10 forbid that you get into a position when the HVO is defending you and

11 Caritas feeding you.

12 Q. Thank you. Tell me, please, what about the bishop's premises?

13 Was that destroyed by the Chetniks?

14 A. It was damaged. I was there.

15 Q. The bishop had his seat in the cathedral; isn't that right?

16 A. I went there too.

17 Q. And why were you so opposed to having the bishop stay at the house

18 that the former mayor left to the town of Mostar? And I agree with you on

19 that. And the bishop had no other place to conduct his religious services

20 but the cathedral? And this house was owned by the town of Mostar. This

21 house of Mujaga -- please remind me of the name.

22 A. Komandina.

23 Q. Komandina. So this was a socially owned house. I'm not going to

24 explain all of this for the Trial Chamber now, but just tell me is this

25 correct?

Page 4180

1 A. Well, it was not fair of Mr. Topic at the time to give a house

2 that was bequeathed to the town, and his son was still alive and the --

3 his last -- his will said that it should be returned to the Islamic

4 community, and then to have it handed over to the Catholic church? And

5 the Catholic church did have some premises of their own and the Islamic

6 community didn't have any premises of their own, and he didn't take this

7 into account at all.

8 Q. Witness, sir, distinguished witness, you are a man of learning. I

9 ask you most kindly -- you hear my questions well. Please let us not

10 dwell on this any longer. I asked you very kindly just to answer me

11 whether this house was socially owned or not.

12 A. It was socially owned.

13 Q. Thank you. Did the bishop only spend three months there until his

14 own office was repaired? Is that correct?

15 A. Yes, that is correct. But he left this gentleman there at that

16 house, and our forces found him there, and that is where he was left in

17 order to open a bishop's Caritas.

18 Q. Didn't you get the entire students' dormitory, including the gym,

19 where you could conduct your prayers?

20 A. Perhaps it's better to put it this way: that we entered that

21 students' dormitory. It's not that we were really given permission for

22 that. So we tried to pre-empt the situation so that they would accept it

23 as a fait accompli.

24 Q. Witness --

25 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Would you please be so kind, sir?

Page 4181

1 Could we see the Prosecution exhibits from yesterday, please? The whole

2 binder? Exhibit 739.1.

3 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Krsnik, I think we are also entitled to be

4 informed.

5 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I do apologise, Your Honour. The

6 usher is not wearing his headphones, and that's why I told him directly.

7 Exhibit 739.1.

8 Q. Have you found the version in Croatian, that is, the renaming of

9 streets? Have you found that?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. My first question is the following: In which year were the

12 streets renamed?

13 A. We have a report here from Slobodna Dalmacija, from Croatia. This

14 is a report from 1995. I don't know.

15 Q. Precisely in that year, 1995. It's not a report. It's a decision

16 of the municipal council that was published in all the media, in 1995,

17 after Dayton. We had been living in a federation for almost two years by

18 then. My second question --

19 A. What are you trying to say?

20 Q. I'm trying to say that this decision was reached in 1995. Do you

21 know that or not?

22 A. Do you know that these names of streets that were Muslim names

23 were renamed and then started bearing the names of Croats? That's the

24 problem.

25 Q. Distinguished witness, sir, please be so kind as to allow me to

Page 4182

1 put questions. Listen to them carefully and please answer them.

2 A. Go ahead.

3 Q. Are you trying to say that Rondo is a Muslim name, the square

4 called Rondo? Please, yes or no?

5 A. No.

6 Q. The Lenin Promenade, is that a Muslim name? Please, please. Is

7 Lenin a Muslim name or not?

8 A. Of course it's not.

9 Q. All right. But names were being changed -- please bear with me.

10 Be patient.

11 A. Well, you bear with me too. We cannot just go through this way.

12 Rondo is a universal name. All the people of Mostar like this. So if

13 they like it --

14 JUDGE LIU: This Trial Chamber is certainly not expecting any

15 debates among the Defence counsel and the witness. We have made a ruling

16 that whenever this kind of argument happens, we will blame the counsel,

17 rather than the witness, because you are conducting the

18 cross-examination. Just be patient with the witness. You should

19 understand that in the cross-examination, all the witnesses are somewhat

20 hostile.

21 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Sir, Witness, Petar Drapsin, that was the name of a street that

23 was changed. Is that also a Muslim name, Petar Drapsin?

24 A. I don't think you're talking about the core of the problem at

25 all. I mentioned a few streets, and they are very well known, and they

Page 4183

1 bore Muslim names. And many streets beforehand were named after Croats

2 too, and now, why was not a single Muslim name left? That's the problem.

3 The rest doesn't matter at all.

4 Q. Tell me, the name of the street that was JNA, the Croat Vladimir

5 Nazor, and the JNA was the aggressor, and then Matija Gubec, and then all

6 the other names are from the communist period, will you agree that all of

7 those names were changed?

8 A. I have a clear idea. Rondo is universally accepted by all. Why

9 did the square, Rondo - that is very well known to the people of Mostar,

10 wherever they would be - why was it renamed the Square of Great Croats?

11 And all of this was done with the intention of having West Mostar as the

12 town of Croats only.

13 Q. Very well. We'll move on to another question. Could you please

14 be so kind as to tell me whether Bishop Peric gave you this book as a

15 gift? It's called, "For a Just Peace."

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Was your entire correspondence published in that book, the

18 correspondence between you and him?

19 A. This was much later, after the war.

20 Q. I agree. It was published in 1995. But was your entire

21 correspondence published in that book, the correspondence between you and

22 the bishop?

23 A. A lot of time has gone by. I can't remember all the details.

24 But, yes, for the most part, yes.

25 Q. Did you --

Page 4184

1 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Krsnik, we come across the same issues we had

2 before. If you want to show some documents, you have to show this book to

3 this witness.

4 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, on that same point, I'm also concerned,

5 frankly, that if there is some particular letter included in the book that

6 he intends to use in any way, either today or in the future, to challenge

7 this witness's credibility, it ought to be put to the witness. I fear --

8 I may be unjustified in this, but I fear there is something in that book

9 that we'll hear about in the future that will not be put to the witness

10 while he is here to respond to it. So I invite the Chamber to have

11 counsel, if there is something in that book specifically to put to this

12 witness, that it should be put to the witness.

13 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik.

14 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honour, please, please, I kindly

15 ask this Honourable Trial Chamber, I don't even say what I wish to say,

16 and an objection is raised on the basis of something that I do not intend

17 to do at all. The letter I'm going to talk about is a Prosecution

18 exhibit. I just asked the witness whether this book exists and whether he

19 received it. And this is Exhibit 467.2. Nothing else. Of course,

20 nothing else occurred to me. We discussed this yesterday.

21 I apologised today, and I said that I would never tender anything

22 in the future if I do not have a sufficient number of copies in the

23 English and the Croatian languages. And I just wanted to bring up

24 Exhibit 467.2, which is a Prosecution Exhibit.

25 JUDGE LIU: Thank you, you may proceed.

Page 4185












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13 English transcripts.













Page 4186

1 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

2 Q. Could you please look at the last page of this letter in the Croat

3 language, because it's very long. If you wish, we can discuss the entire

4 letter and your answer, of course; however, I would like to confine myself

5 to Point 5(a), (b), (c). Point 5 begins as follows:

6 "We are astonished, finally, Mr. Mufti, over some of the things

7 that are contained in the book "Instructions to the Muslim Soldier",

8 Zenica 1993, that was published by the office of the meshihat of the

9 Islamic community of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina in 50.000 copies.

10 "For instance, (a), chief characteristics of the devoutness of

11 the Muslim soldier are that he goes to battle with the cry Bismilla in the

12 name of Allah. Do you really want this to be a religious war?"

13 MR. SCOTT: I object to relevance, Your Honour. How is this an

14 issue in the case or a defence to an issue in the case? I object to

15 relevance.

16 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Krsnik, have you explained what the relevance is

17 for us?

18 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Well, of course it's relevant,

19 Mr. President, because it is quite contrary to all the allegations made by

20 the Prosecutor in the indictment. Because this is the army of one party

21 and of one faith and all the rest, the civil war, et cetera, et cetera. I

22 have the indictment, of course, and of course my questions are based on

23 the indictment, Your Honours.

24 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, perhaps Mr. Krsnik can take us to that

25 part of the indictment to which this is relevant. He said, It is quite

Page 4187

1 contrary to all the allegations made by the Prosecutor in the indictment.

2 I have no idea what Mr. Krsnik is talking about -- or, again, I object to

3 the relevance. There has been no showing whatsoever this is relevant.

4 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, you are aware of the

5 general context of the indictment, and my client stands accused of that as

6 well. Of course, the instructions to Muslim soldiers are not in this

7 indictment, but this will be in the following indictment, and that is why

8 the Prosecutor keeps opposing this by invoking the principle of

9 tu quoque. However, in this case, this principle is not applicable, nor

10 is that the Defence that we are trying to carry out.

11 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Krsnik, we understand the objections from

12 the Prosecutor. But here we are not discussing the legal issues,

13 especially on the principle of the tu quoque. We have received the

14 submissions from the Prosecutor on these matters, but we regard it as just

15 kind of reference material rather than some motions, and ask us to do

16 anything on that issue. So we'll not spend much time on those issues.

17 You may proceed with your cross-examination, but just bear in mind

18 the objections from the Prosecutors on this point. We have spent a lot of

19 time on this issue. We hope you could wind up your cross-examination as

20 soon as possible.

21 And now, it's 11.00. We have to break.

22 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President.

23 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Scott.

24 MR. SCOTT: I apologise. I do need to say, I believe, before the

25 break, I am -- I can only say I'm very concerned about this witness being

Page 4188

1 able to conclude his testimony before 1.00. And it would be a shame if he

2 has to stay over the weekend again to testify for a few minutes on

3 Monday.

4 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Can -- I can promise, Your Honours,

5 that I will finish within half an hour, because I just have questions left

6 that are related to mosques and everything that concerns mosques. And

7 after that, I will conclude.

8 JUDGE LIU: We will resume at 11.30.

9 --- Recess taken at 11.01 a.m.

10 --- On resuming at 11.32 a.m.

11 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik. Please continue.

12 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. Just a

13 brief comment: The documents that were supplied by our learned friends

14 are here, and that was my first intention. I simply wanted to check

15 them. Besides, we also have a reply to this letter. It is also in this

16 binder. So that was the purpose of my questions. There. So with your

17 permission, I'd like to go on.

18 Q. Sir, do you have the text before you? You know, that item 5, the

19 last page?

20 A. You mean the letter?

21 Q. That's right. That's right. Now, we are moving to item B. We've

22 just been through (a). And again is the bishop writing to you, same

23 letter, I mean? Did you find that? Item 5(a), (b), (c). Now, I'm

24 reading (b). Or in these Instructions for the Muslim Soldier, it says:

25 "Thus, for instance, if the superior officer or the higher

Page 4189

1 command assess that in the interests of defence, protection of one's own

2 people and superior goals, it is more proper to set fire to certain

3 buildings, crops or forests, then it is permissible to do that because

4 history teaches us that Mohamed, A.S., permitted the destruction of

5 houses - of a house, excuse me, of a house - and felling of enemy palm

6 groves in retaliation," page 25 of the Instructions for the Muslim

7 Soldier.

8 And finally, (c):

9 "It is likewise left to the military command to decide whether it

10 is more useful and of interest for the common cause to free, exchange or

11 liquidate an enemy prisoner, page 26 of the Instructions for the Muslim

12 Soldier, which is in glaring contradiction, especially the letter, with

13 both the Geneva Convention on prisoners of war and common sense."

14 And the letter is concluded with the following:

15 "It is presumably in this context that one can interpret an

16 occasional beret with the inscription, 'For Allah, against the cross.' We

17 condemn that too. Praying to God to grant to us all a just and lasting

18 peace as soon as possible. Respectfully yours. Ratko Peric."

19 Did you receive that letter and read it?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Now, I'd like to have your reply to that, Exhibit 476.1, last page

22 of your letter, the second passage. Did you find it? Have you found

23 that, the last page of your text, the second passage? And it says:

24 "I marvel, dear Bishop, at your astonishment, as you put it,

25 about the Instructions for the Muslim Soldier, since you know that Islam

Page 4190

1 teaches that every good and noble undertaking, such as the defence of

2 one's own life, defence of the people and homeland, and we have no other

3 homeland except Bosnia and Herzegovina, begins with God's name."

4 Now, if you want me to, if you want me to read the rest of it, but

5 I'll ask you only questions about this particular passage. Now, do you

6 want me to read the rest? I'm surprised that you do know. But what I'm

7 interested is in his question and your answer. And this is how you answer

8 -- how you reply to the bishop, isn't it?

9 A. [no audible response]

10 Q. Will you then agree with me that these passages that the bishop

11 quoted to you figure indeed in the Instructions to the Muslim Soldier?

12 A. Possibly. I do not have the text with me, but I believe you.

13 There is no reason to doubt it.

14 JUDGE CLARK: I think in fairness to this issue, yesterday you

15 very kindly furnished us with a translation of the "Instructions to the

16 Muslim Soldier," which I read last night. With the greatest respect to

17 the bishop and to you, the bishop has taken that particular passage out of

18 context. Because reading this document yesterday, I was amazed at how

19 many similarities there are in it to the Geneva Convention for the

20 treatment of prisoners of war.

21 And in fact, there is a paragraph here on page 24, which is

22 entitled "Prisoners of War." And if I could read it out, because I think

23 there must be some fairness in this. It says:

24 "Prisoners of war are likewise the phenomenon inherent in every

25 war. Islam has in this matter established firm rules which Muslim

Page 4191

1 soldiers are duty-bound to follow. Although the foe in this war has gone

2 beyond all measures in his crimes, Muslim soldiers are nevertheless bound

3 by their faith to show justice and adhere to certain rules which apply

4 even in wartime conditions.

5 "To this effect, the killing of women, children, and priests who

6 do not participate at all in the war --"

7 THE INTERPRETER: Your Honour, the interpreters do not have a copy

8 of this text.

9 JUDGE CLARK: I'll go more slowly. "... and who do not directly

10 or indirectly assist the enemy is forbidden." And this is the important

11 bit: "Likewise, it is forbidden to damage or destroy other people's

12 sacred objects, cultural, and historical monuments. It is also forbidden

13 to kill farm animals and to destroy crops and vegetation. Islam,

14 likewise, forbids the torture and brutalisation of prisoners of war and

15 the mutilation of enemy and continues very much in the line of the Geneva

16 convention."

17 It then goes on to say: "These are general rules which are

18 binding for our soldiers; however, if the commanding officer assesses that

19 the situation and the general interest demand a different course of

20 action, then the soldiers are duty-bound to obey their commanding

21 officer."

22 Now we come to the piece that the bishop quoted: "For instance,

23 if their officer or higher command assesses that it is in the interest of

24 defence ..." So in other words, this is an exception to the general rule.

25 So really, with the greatest of respect to the bishop, who I'm

Page 4192

1 sure had his advisors, the little passage in his letter which you have

2 quoted has been taken out of context, and I think you will agree with

3 that. So in general, Islamic soldiers are forbidden to do what

4 non-Islamic soldiers are also forbidden by the rules of warfare. And so

5 really, this debate is not going to advance the case very much. There are

6 no doubt soldiers on every side who either disregard the rule of Islam or

7 disregard the Geneva Convention, and that's what we are dealing with.

8 But I'm very glad that whoever furnished the Bench with this gave

9 it to me because it made very interesting reading. But I really don't

10 think the debate that you are conducting between yourselves at the moment

11 is of interest. Obviously from a sociological point of view, it may be

12 going a little bit outside of what we are here to face.

13 This witness, as I reminded you yesterday, obviously has very

14 strong views, and so do you. And they may not be the same views, but this

15 witness has given evidence that there were 20 mosques before the war and

16 there are now none. And really, you have to deal with that, if you think

17 it relates to your client at all. This witness hasn't given evidence that

18 he saw Mr. Tuta giving orders. But nevertheless, do you dispute that the

19 20 mosques were destroyed? And that's what we really have to deal with.

20 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honour, for

21 explanation and your views. Of course, I agree with them. I was not

22 going to engage in a long debate. Merely in this chapter on the prisoners

23 of war, which you have just read, it says that there are general rules

24 which are binding on everybody. But then if somebody interprets it

25 differently, then, it, of course, entails all the other consequences in

Page 4193

1 these rules.

2 But I will not ask any more questions. We heard the answer. I

3 merely wanted to say why is the answer like that because all the clergy,

4 all the men of God, should react and respond immediately, as soon as they

5 see that something is in contravention of the teaching of God, of their

6 religion and everything.

7 JUDGE CLARK: [Previous translation continued] ... today.

8 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Indeed.

9 Q. You also heard the instructions of the noble Judge, and we must go

10 by them. So let us move on to the issue of mosques. And it is the last

11 document which is in Croatian language.

12 A. Yes, I've found that one.

13 Q. Please, be so kind. My first question: Do you know as regards

14 all the mosques that were destroyed -- mined - excuse me - or demolished

15 in some other way, that one man was accused or, rather, one unit or

16 specifically the unit called -- the man called Misic, and there is a case

17 conducted against him in Mostar?

18 A. I'm not aware of that.

19 Q. Oh, you are not.

20 A. The first time I hear about that.

21 Q. Well, the media wrote about that and covered it all. That's why I

22 asked you. There is the trial before the higher court in Mostar -- I

23 believe it is called "higher" because you do not have a district court.

24 You are not aware that there is such a case before that Court?

25 A. No, I'm not.

Page 4194

1 Q. Fine. But are you generally aware, do you have any knowledge,

2 your personal knowledge, as to who destroyed them? -- you personally.

3 A. You mean the individual or --

4 Q. No, well, there are many mosques. I don't want to list them all.

5 For instance, let's take the municipalities. Mostar North, for instance,

6 municipality of Mostar North. You say the facilities which were destroyed

7 or damaged by Croats. That is what I am going by, because naturally, what

8 the Serbs destroyed, there is very extensive and exhaustive

9 documentation. And we shall also be presenting this to this Court,

10 needless to say. So I wanted to ask you, municipality of Mostar, Stari

11 Grad, that's what I am asking you. I don't think we need maps, not to

12 waste any more time.

13 A. Yes, that's the old part -- the historical core of Mostar.

14 Q. What about Hadi Mehmed [phoen], Kara Josa [phoen], and Ali Pasha's

15 [phoen] Mosque? Are they also part of that?

16 A. Yes, they are.

17 Q. Then municipality South -- Mostar South, South Mostar, it is the

18 penultimate -- no, it is the third page of your report, Mostar South. Is

19 it outside Mostar, towards Rastani?

20 A. No, no, no. It's south, so it's Buna, Grbovac, Pijesci, toward

21 Capljina.

22 Q. I see. And how far is it from the city of Mostar itself?

23 A. Well, according to the present territorial subdivision, it also

24 includes Jasenica and Rodoc, which are suburbs.

25 Q. I see, suburbs, right. So tell me about Mostar, southwest

Page 4195

1 municipalities. Is it again suburbs?

2 A. Yes. No. But that is in the south.

3 Q. Oh, southwest?

4 A. Yes, Mostar municipality, southwest.

5 Q. Do you mean the city?

6 A. Yes, that's in the city.

7 Q. I see. The city, yes. We are just trying to identify the

8 locations. Then West Mostar municipality, there is only one meshdid

9 [phoen] in the locality of Rastani, isn't it?

10 A. That's right. That is another suburb. That's right.

11 Q. Now, I'd like to ask you about southwest Mostar municipality,

12 item 3. Three, isn't it? It says here -- to begin with, is it your

13 signature or not? Because there is a signature on every page. Is that

14 your page or somebody else's?

15 A. Mine.

16 Q. It says, "The mosque in the settlement of Balinovac," and that

17 same individual called Misic has also -- is charged with the destruction

18 of this mosque. But here we have an interesting sentence: "It was

19 destroyed immediately after the outbreak of the conflict and there were

20 several eye witnesses whom soldiers commanded by Tuta took to the

21 Heliodrom camp." Is that what it says?

22 A. Yes, it is.

23 Q. "And then those men, that is, the eye witnesses who were being

24 escorted by these other men, saw the mosque being destroyed by a bulldozer

25 and the stones being immediately taken away." What does Tuta have to do

Page 4196












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13 English transcripts.













Page 4197

1 with that mosque? Why is his name here?

2 A. Well, men who returned from the camp said that.

3 Q. That's fine, but why does his name come up here when he has

4 nothing to do with this mosque, either he or his men? And I think it

5 transpires from your text very clearly.

6 A. What transpires is that the mosque -- the mosque was mined on the

7 9th of May, on the day of the attack and the offensive.

8 Q. That's fine, but I'm reading your report. Tuta and those soldiers

9 and the mosque have nothing to do. So why is it mentioned here?

10 A. Well, we established that there was a connection.

11 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, I object. Counsel has asked the

12 question several times now and has still not given the witness an

13 opportunity to provide an answer, and in addition to that, he several

14 times made simple assertions that are contrary to what's in the

15 statement. Now, my main objection is let the witness answer.

16 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we believe that the witness should have an

17 opportunity to answer the questions. And Mr. Krsnik, you conduct your

18 questioning in such fast speeds, even we have some difficulties to follow

19 you So rephrase your question, ask it one by one, slowly and clearly.

20 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. My

21 apologies, I shall read this once again.

22 Q. It is item 3 of your report, the one that you wrote. And in this

23 report, which you wrote, it says that "Soldiers commanded by Tuta took

24 some men to the camp." Is that correct?

25 A. It is.

Page 4198

1 Q. And then those men, that Tuta's soldiers --

2 A. Perhaps that is what is missing.

3 Q. But it does not say so here.

4 A. Yes. I think that there is something which is missing from this

5 text.

6 Q. I see, something is missing. So what you are telling us today is

7 correct, and the text that you wrote was deficient? I see. Right. Now,

8 tell me the next thing, the municipality of Jablanica - it's the next

9 page - "The mosque in -- at the locality of Sovici destroyed by

10 explosives after the Bosniaks had been expelled." Now, was that a mosque

11 or was it a meshdid [phoen] or was it a gazul hana? I've asked all the

12 witnesses that, and I think you are the most competent person to ask of

13 that?

14 A. It was a mosque, a mosque with a gazul hana.

15 Q. I see. So it was a mosque with a gazul hana?

16 A. That's right.

17 Q. Will you then be so kind and explain to the court what is a gazul

18 hana?

19 A. That is the area where the deceased are dressed. Sometimes it

20 makes part of the mosque; sometimes it stands on its own.

21 Q. Will you tell me, please, was there a minaret -- did the mosque

22 have a minaret?

23 A. Yes, it did.

24 Q. I see. So the mosque in Sovici had the minaret?

25 A. Well, if it has the minaret -- if there is a mosque, at least that

Page 4199

1 is how we understand it, and every mosque has a minaret.

2 Q. So you saw with your own eyes that mosque and that minaret?

3 A. Before the war, I went there to attend some services.

4 Q. Thank you. Now, we move on to the item 2, item 2, the mosque and

5 the settlement of Doljani. And there follows an interesting sentence:

6 "It was set on fire and destroyed after the massacre." Will you tell me

7 what massacre, who massacred whom, how many bodies, what date, and will

8 you please tell us what you know about it?

9 A. It was, let me see, on the 17th, on the 17th of April.

10 Q. How many people were massacred in Doljani?

11 A. I do not know the exact number. I know that military were taken

12 to a camp, that there was a very brutal attack on the village, that the

13 villagers were imprisoned there, that they watched it, and some of them,

14 that is, those who told me about that, were taken to Jablanica later on.

15 Q. And on the basis of these stories of other people, you conjectured

16 or you heard or something --

17 A. That's right.

18 Q. -- that there was a massacre in Doljani?

19 A. That is right.

20 Q. And when was that mosque set on fire and destroyed? Do you know

21 that?

22 A. Well, some people stayed on for a few more days whilst they were

23 there.

24 Q. But do you know approximately?

25 A. No. We had no contact with Jablanica at the time.

Page 4200

1 Q. Very well. There are some indications that the units who did that

2 under Naletilic -- were under the command of Naletilic. But that is

3 something that you also heard from other people. That is also hearsay,

4 isn't it?

5 A. Yes, it is.

6 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I thought this would be my last

7 question but then my colleagues remind me that I have two questions more.

8 But they are short.

9 Q. First, could you give us the name of that anchor, of that host, in

10 Split? You remember, the one that you testified about during the direct

11 examination.

12 A. I cannot remember.

13 Q. Thank you. Do you perhaps remember at least the month or the year

14 of that programme, and then we can look it up at the HTV?

15 A. It was in May 1992. It could be the 17th or the 18th, perhaps.

16 Q. Thank you very much. So May 1992?

17 A. That's right.

18 Q. And my final question -- and my final question, please: Is that

19 certificate -- let me just find which exhibit is that. P168.1. [In

20 English] Help me. [Interpretation] Please be so kind, does it say,

21 "Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, the Croat Community Herceg-Bosna;" is

22 that correct? Is that the school year 1991-1992?

23 A. It is.

24 Q. Did Yugoslavia exist at the time?

25 A. No.

Page 4201

1 Q. Had -- was Croatia recognised in February 1992 and

2 Bosnia-Herzegovina in late April 1992?

3 A. Yes, I believe it was somewhere there. I'm not -- I don't know

4 the exact dates.

5 Q. And by that -- by those dates, they were components of the

6 Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, weren't they? Is that correct?

7 Until the date of recognition, they were components, they were constituent

8 federal units, both Croatia and Bosnia, of the Socialist Federal Republic

9 of Yugoslavia?

10 A. Well, I'd have to check the dates. I'm not quite sure of that

11 date in April when it was recognised.

12 Q. Sir, what I want to know is to establish the school year

13 1991-1992. I'm asking you. No doubt neither Croatia or

14 Bosnia-Herzegovina were recognised at the time. They were still an

15 integral part of the federal state of Yugoslavia. Can you say something

16 in this regard?

17 A. No, I can't.

18 Q. Very well. And my final question: The Croat Community

19 Herceg-Bosna, was it created that very moment when President Alija

20 Izetbegovic, following the attack on the village of Emo [phoen], said that

21 it was not your war?

22 A. I am not aware of that statement of Mr. Izetbegovic.

23 Q. Thank you very much, efendi, and thank you very much for your

24 answers.

25 A. Not at all.

Page 4202

1 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Any cross-examination? Yes, Mr. Seric?

2 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, during the direct

3 examination by the Prosecutor, the witness did not mention my client at

4 all as the immediate perpetrator of any of the acts mentioned, and the

5 indictment does not refer to many of these things; so therefore the

6 Defence of Vinko Naletilic -- of Vinko Martinovic does not have any

7 questions of this witness. Thank you.

8 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Seric, I would like to draw your attention

9 to the destruction of those mosques in Mostar. In the southwest Mostar

10 municipality, in his report, he said that the mosque was situated -- was

11 under the control of Vinko Martinovic, Stela. Have you noticed that

12 allegation in that report?

13 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. However, it is the

14 Defence case, and we will prove it, that this mosque was not within the

15 zone of responsibility of Vinko Martinovic, Stela. And we believe that

16 this witness is not a good one to prove that. We are going to prove it

17 through our own witnesses during our own case; so therefore there is no

18 point that we take up your time, our colleagues' time, our own time, as a

19 matter of fact. We have other documents, and this witness really cannot

20 assist us at all in this respect.

21 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

22 Any re-examination, Mr. Scott?

23 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, I do have a couple of questions. I do

24 have one item that's not really my question so much, but I feel like I

25 should point it out for the benefit of counsel for Naletilic. I'm

Page 4203

1 informed that yesterday, there was a question to the witness during his

2 cross-examination about some letter, I think a letter dated the 29th -- a

3 letter or a meeting -- dated the 29th of April, 1993.

4 I believe this was at page 60 of the transcript yesterday. And

5 Mr. Krsnik put some question to the witness. And to be perfectly candid,

6 I have not looked specifically in the transcript myself, but something

7 about Mr. Demirovic saying that Mostar should be a glorious, Islamic city,

8 or something to that effect.

9 I am told that the English transcript gave the answer or

10 interpreted the answer from Mr. Smajkic as saying "yes" to that question,

11 and the French translation gave the answer as being "no". So if that's

12 something that's important to Mr. Krsnik, I just thought I would point

13 that out. If he wishes, he may seek to clarify that. I don't intend to

14 go into it.

15 JUDGE LIU: Well, the purpose of the re-examination is to make

16 clear what is not clear in the cross-examination. You have the full right

17 to ask this witness about this question.

18 MR. SCOTT: I would be happy to, Your Honour. I am simply trying

19 to assist counsel, but I will do it the way you suggest as well.

20 Re-examined by Mr. Scott:

21 Q. Let's start with that, Mr. Smajkic. I don't know if you heard all

22 of that or not. Do you recall a question yesterday, there was something

23 about a meeting or a letter involving both you and Mr. Zijad Demirovic,

24 perhaps others. And counsel for Mr. Naletilic pointed out some passage to

25 you, said something about Mostar being a great or a glorious Islamic

Page 4204

1 city. Do you remember that testimony, or that question?

2 A. I remember the question. I have just heard now what the answer

3 was.

4 Q. Well, I want you to have a chance to clarify what your position

5 was on that. Did you agree with that, or did you hear that statement or,

6 if you recall now, what your position was, in fact? Because the

7 transcript apparently is not clear.

8 A. I cannot be sure whether we held this meeting. However, I know

9 for sure what Mr. Demirovic's thinking is. He works on the protection of

10 cultural monuments. And before the war and afterward, he worked on the

11 protection of the cultural heritage of Mostar. And he is a great advocate

12 of culture. I know Mr. Demirovic very well indeed, and I simply cannot

13 believe that it ever crossed his mind to make the town of Mostar into some

14 kind of an Islamic town. I talked to him about this often. This is the

15 revitalisation of buildings and certainly the revitalisation of the image

16 of Mostar.

17 Mostar, that was an old town, it has a cultural heritage of over

18 500 years. And I believe that his line of thinking went along those

19 lines.

20 Q. All right. Thank you, sir.

21 In connection with the questions that were put to you for some

22 time about religious officers or officials that may have been associated

23 with the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, are you aware, sir, that it is the

24 practice of perhaps most armies in the world to have officers and

25 officials as such called "chaplains"?

Page 4205

1 A. Yes, I am aware of that.

2 Q. Did you understand these officials -- and I use the correct term,

3 and if I don't, forgive me -- someone like an emir, can you assist the

4 Chamber, can you compare that person to what someone in a western army

5 might be considered a chaplain?

6 A. I think that it corresponds. It is an assistant commander for

7 morale. I think that that is identical, really.

8 Q. Let me ask you a question. You were asked a series of questions

9 about the Bosniak nation, whether there was a Bosniak nation. And there

10 was a time in your testimony yesterday where that involved about what was

11 recognised during the time of the communist regime and whether, in fact,

12 the Bosniaks as a people were recognised by the communists. Now, I think

13 that was one of those areas where you were not given the opportunity to

14 give a full answer. Could you explain or take the opportunity, please, to

15 explain to the Chamber how were the Bosniaks viewed by the communist

16 regime. And I only ask that in relation to the questions put to you by

17 counsel.

18 A. Thank you very much for your intervention. I felt it necessary to

19 talk about this question. However, because of the wish to be as short as

20 possible and to save time, I decided to omit it, but it's a crucial

21 question for Bosniaks.

22 During the communist regime, Bosniaks were not recognised as an

23 ethnic national group. They were recognised as "undecided." When I

24 finished school, where I was supposed to put my ethnicity -- there was a

25 particular entry that had to read that -- I had to put "undecided,"

Page 4206

1 whereas on the other hand, there were Serbs and Croats who were protected

2 in an ethnic sense.

3 Lately - that is to say, in the '70s, '80s, et cetera - there were

4 intellectuals, Muslims -- let me remind you of another thing. In the

5 '70s, they did make a step forward, the communist authorities. They

6 provided a constitutional solution, legislative solution, that these

7 undecided persons be called "Muslims." However, that is truly a wonder,

8 because a Muslim is a person of a certain faith, in Pakistan and Saudi

9 Arabia, wherever. However, they did not allow themselves to identify with

10 the country where they lived. And that is why the Bosniaks kept making

11 efforts in this direction. There was a critical mass of intellectuals who

12 were preparing the ground for calling themselves by their present-day

13 name.

14 Muslims liked the idea of at least calling themselves Muslims

15 rather than nothing, although they were not satisfied with this category

16 or with this name. We are an autochthonymous [as interpreted] people. We

17 have been here for centuries, et cetera. So now conditions have been

18 created for us to participate on a footing of equality with the other

19 peoples of Bosnia-Herzegovina in creating our national awareness and

20 carrying out our national programmes.

21 Q. Thank you very much.

22 In connection with the videotape, only one question: Can you help

23 the Chamber by -- with this: At the time that that video was taken in

24 1995, is it true, sir, that by that time, the Croats and Muslims were once

25 again fighting, more or less, together against the Serbs?

Page 4207












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 4208

1 A. Well, in '95, in '95, there was this common struggle over there,

2 in the autumn of '95, against the Serbs.

3 Q. Well, if there's any question about that -- I seem to have put the

4 piece of paper with the date of that tape away. February 1995.

5 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

6 MR. SCOTT: Sorry, I was away from the microphone. My apology.

7 Q. The videotape, at least as given to us by counsel, is dated

8 February of 1995. Can you just simply tell the Chamber, if you know, at

9 that time, were the Croats and Bosniaks again fighting the against the

10 Serbs together?

11 A. Yes. 1994 was the year of the Washington Accords, and all

12 hostilities stopped between the Bosniaks and the Croats; that is to say,

13 '94. So that's almost a year, there was a common strategy and common

14 action.

15 Q. So is it correct, sir, that to the extent that the video is

16 relevant at all, any statements in there about the enemy, that was

17 directed at the Serbs and not the Croats? Is that correct?

18 A. Correct.

19 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour Judge Clark already covered the questions

20 that I intended to raise about the "Instructions for the Muslim Fighter";

21 therefore, I won't pursue that further.

22 Q. Let me ask you to please look at what has been marked as Defence

23 Exhibit D1/24.

24 MR. SCOTT: If that can please be put before the witness. That is

25 the letter dated the 5th of January, 1993, from Mr. Smajkic,

Page 4209

1 Mr. Demirovic, and others.

2 Q. I simply want to direct your attention to a couple of passages,

3 sir. Now, if you can find it in the B/C/S version, there is -- sorry for

4 the hesitation. Now I have different versions in front of me, and I'm

5 trying to figure out exactly which one to refer you to.

6 There is the statement, if you can find it, toward the end of the

7 document, several paragraphs up from the end of the letter. One of the

8 statements that Mr. Krsnik put to you was starting along these

9 lines: "Under those conditions, divisions -- division of Herzegovina into

10 three national provinces with a Muslim province in the valley of the

11 Neretva River is the imperative ..."

12 Mr. Smajkic, I want to direct your attention to the full paragraph

13 immediately preceding that statement put to you by Mr. Krsnik. Would you

14 simply read that preceding paragraph to us, please. Starts with "Being

15 aware of tragic ... " If you find that paragraph, will you read it,

16 please.

17 A. Yes, yes, I have found it.

18 "Being aware of the total tragedy of applying only ethnic

19 criteria to the demarcation of peoples in the Republic of

20 Bosnia-Herzegovina, we emphasize that it is particularly unacceptable to

21 the Muslim people in the presented map. If the price for an end to the

22 aggression and genocide must be paid by territorial division, according to

23 the exclusive national criteria, and we insist that the same principles be

24 applied to all three constituent peoples. Under such divisions, the

25 imperative is the division of Herzegovina into three national provinces

Page 4210

1 with a Muslim province in the valley of the Neretva River."

2 Q. You can stop there, I believe. Although the next sentence --

3 well, the courtroom can see the next sentence.

4 Now, you attempted to provide an answer to Mr. Krsnik's question.

5 Is that what you were also saying, that the statement that Mr. Krsnik read

6 to you was, as you said, I believe something along the lines, "Only if

7 there was no other choice given to the Muslim people." And the portion of

8 the letter that you just read, is that what you were trying to tell us?

9 A. Precisely.

10 Q. And at this point in time, as of January 1993, was the Bosniak

11 leadership, in fact, rejecting the idea of a peace agreement of lines

12 drawn on maps according to exclusive ethnic territory?

13 A. Fully.

14 Q. And secondly, Mr. Krsnik asked you to look at another sentence

15 down below that. And it's about -- there's one paragraph in between, I

16 believe. But it's the paragraph that begins with "If the only ...

17 human ..." If you just find the paragraph, pause with me for a moment,

18 please.

19 The portion put to you by Mr. Krsnik was that there was a call for

20 the complete mobilisation of Muslims. Now, would you again, please, read

21 the full paragraph to the Chamber.

22 A. "If the only way out for us as human beings, neighbours, and

23 citizens is the prolongation of war with all new victims and consequences,

24 we are ready to do everything for a complete mobilisation of Muslims in

25 this territory in the shortest possible period of time."

Page 4211

1 Q. Thank you.

2 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, I only have one other area of

3 questions. To do that, even in a very abbreviated way, I need to tender,

4 to distribute in the courtroom, a packet of documents, which, given the

5 time -- I don't want to alert the Court that there is a major issue

6 because you're going to see a bundle of documents. I want the Chamber to

7 realise that in this time, I'm only going to be able to take him to a

8 couple of specific passages.

9 JUDGE LIU: Well, now, at this moment, could I interrupt for a few

10 minutes?

11 MR. SCOTT: Of course.

12 JUDGE LIU: This Trial Chamber was informed that Mr. Naletilic has

13 his doctor's appointment between 1.00 to 2.00 this afternoon and he has to

14 be back to the detention unit at 12.30. On the other hand, we have to

15 finish this witness today. So, with respect, I will ask Mr. Krsnik

16 whether you could allow us to proceed without the presence of your client

17 for 30 minutes? With the understanding we have gone through the major part

18 of this proceedings and the last one is only procedural matters. Will you?

19 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Certainly, Your Honour. We can

20 proceed, and the gentleman can have these checkups, which are so important

21 for his health, because we have always cooperated and we shall continue to

22 cooperate, because we want to keep up -- keep the proceedings going.

23 Thank you.

24 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Thank you very much.

25 Mr. Naletilic, you may go now

Page 4212

1 [The accused withdrew]

2 Yes, Mr. Scott, I'm sorry for interrupting you.

3 MR. SCOTT: No. Please. Thank you. I appreciate, Mr. President,

4 I -- we are happy to make the accommodation. I must say it's a bit of a

5 mystery to me why the Dutch -- why we can't seem to find a time to visit

6 the doctor except at 12.30, when I presume they must be aware of the court

7 schedule. It seems a little odd, but such as it is, we shall go forward.

8 I appreciate that, that we are able to continue.

9 If I could have the usher's assistance, Mr. President, there is a

10 bundle of documents that need to be distributed. And again, I don't want

11 to alarm the Chamber at the size of the bundle because I'm only going to

12 have time this afternoon to refer to a couple of them.

13 The reason I leave them intact, Your Honour, if you will,

14 Mr. President, Your Honours, is that because they are -- this bundle of

15 documents is closely related to each other, going to a question -- to a

16 point raised by counsel yesterday in his cross-examination, and the

17 assertion - and I use that word advisedly - his assertion that there was

18 some binding international agreement that endorsed the ultimatums put

19 forward by Mr. Prlic and Mr. Stojic on the 15th of January, 1993.

20 What these are, Your Honours, while it's still -- if I can take

21 advantage of the time -- if I can take advantage of the time while it's

22 still being -- these are by and large, with one or two exceptions, all

23 documents that are official records of the United Nations concerning the

24 Vance-Owen Plan or the Vance-Owen negotiations.

25 Q. Now, Mr. Smajkic --

Page 4213

1 MR. SCOTT: If the usher could possibly assist us because, of

2 course, these documents, since they are UN -- well, they are in English,

3 and counsel -- excuse me, the usher can perhaps assist us. If you could

4 find page 280 -- excuse me for a moment -- first of all, if I can direct

5 the courtroom's attention to Exhibit 239.1, which is a little bit more

6 than halfway through the bundle?

7 And I'm sorry, Your Honour, in the time that was allowed since

8 last evening, I didn't have a chance to put individual tabs on these, but

9 if you can find 239.1, which is titled, on the front page, "Security

10 Council Official Records, United Nations, New York, 1995." Now, I will

11 bring this entire document to the Chamber's attention when it has more

12 time because it goes into the Vance-Owen negotiations at great length;

13 however, counsel -- or Mr. Smajkic, can I direct your attention, please,

14 with the usher' assistance, to page 280? Just as a reference point, the

15 documents themselves are numbered. That document itself is numbered. And

16 if you get to 280, there is no ERN number on that page, but there should

17 be page numbers in the lower -- in the middle -- on the document itself.

18 If you find Exhibit 239.1 -- I'm sorry, you will have to find 239.1. It's

19 in that same bundle.

20 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik?

21 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I beg your pardon, I'm sorry to

22 interrupt, and I do apologise to my colleague, but could the Court kindly

23 assist me? This new document came in during rebuttal. Will I have the

24 right to re-examine on this document? Because this document did not come

25 up during the examination-in-chief. I haven't even read it. There is 200

Page 4214

1 pages in the English language. How can I follow the questions and answers

2 now?

3 JUDGE LIU: Yes. I somehow sympathise with your view expressed

4 here. We have also not read all this document through. But let us see.

5 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, I think I can -- I can do it, if the

6 Chamber will allow me. I realise it's a bit unwieldly; I think --

7 certainly acknowledge that. But if the Chamber will allow me, there are

8 two or three passages that I think are pertinent to respond to the

9 cross-examination of counsel.

10 JUDGE LIU: Let us see first where the Prosecutor will lead us.

11 Then we'll decide what we should do with those documents.

12 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. President.

13 Q. Now, if you're at 239.1, and then if you go to the pages that are

14 on the document itself, page 280 -- and I don't know --

15 MR. SCOTT: Well, again in the interests of time, let me direct

16 everyone's attention -- I will read slowly in the English version and ask

17 the interpreters' assistance. This is, Your Honours - again because of

18 time, can't do this at more at length - this is a copy of a part of the

19 Vance-Owen agreement that was indeed signed both by Mr. Izetbegovic and

20 Mr. Boban on the 25th day of March, 1993, which is indicated in the lower

21 right part of page 280.

22 Now, specifically, on that very same page, if I direct everyone's

23 attention to the first paragraph in the upper left-hand corner, heading E,

24 "Withdrawal of Forces" -- statement -- this statement is made: "Both

25 Bosnian army and HVO forces shall be deployed in provinces 5, 8, 9 and 10,

Page 4215

1 under arrangements agreed between them."

2 And if you look to the next page, Mr. President, you will see a

3 map, at least one map, of the Vance-Owen Plan, in terms of the provinces.

4 And while some of these copies are not particularly good, you will see

5 that Mostar was in what was being called province or canton number 8. In

6 other words, that is the -- the map itself, Your Honour, is marked as

7 appendix A but immediately -- it's the second page following -- do you

8 have it? Yes. Thank you, sorry.

9 Q. Now, my question to you, Mr. Smajkic, if you know: Did you know

10 at that time that that was the agreement, that in terms of the Mostar

11 province - we will refer to it here as in the Vance-Owen Plan, number 8 -

12 that in fact the only agreement signed by Mr. Izetbegovic and Mr. Boban

13 was that the forces, both forces, should be deployed in those provinces

14 and that province under arrangements agreed between them? Were you aware

15 of that?

16 A. We were aware of that in a certain way.

17 Q. Now, directing your attention, then, to Exhibit 271.- -- excuse

18 me, 271, which is several -- in that same packet of exhibits, several

19 pages down, several exhibits down, because we are going to have to skip a

20 couple of things. But if you can find Exhibit 271. This is a joint

21 statement, at least titled "Joint Statement."

22 MR. SCOTT: Just as a point of reference, I'll direct the

23 Chamber's attention to paragraph numbered 3, dated the 2nd of April,

24 1993.

25 Q. Were you aware, sir, that while Mr. Boban proposed this joint

Page 4216

1 statement, and in fact signed it, as you will see on the B/C/S version

2 attached, that Mr. Izetbegovic never signed or agreed to that statement?

3 Were you aware of that?

4 A. Yes.

5 MR. SCOTT: Your Honours, I will point you to - and I point the

6 witness to - the next exhibit, P272. Mr. President, I can only say I'm

7 not going to ask the witness about this, but this is a letter that was

8 obtained from Mr. Izetbegovic in an earlier case confirming indeed the

9 fact that he never signed the 2nd of April, 1993 statement.

10 Q. Did you during -- as of April 1993, were you aware of any signed

11 peace agreement that divided the armies strictly by ethnic makeup, in

12 terms of who would be in a certain province, if you will, or canton, and

13 who would not, that was actually signed by Mr. Izetbegovic?

14 A. No. We had no such information. No, we did not.

15 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, when -- that's my last question except

16 to tender the exhibits. When more time allows, I would take the Chamber

17 through these exhibits in a more detailed way. And I think it answers the

18 question quite comprehensively, there was no binding international

19 agreement.

20 Your Honour, I tender -- the Prosecution tenders, with this

21 witness, 125.1, 126.1, 157.1, 162.1, 162.2, 168.1, 173.1, 190, 214, and

22 215 - I mentioned 218 and 219, although I believe they are -- they have

23 been used before; I don't know if admitted - 288, 274, 277, 410, 422, 421,

24 425, 462.1, 467.2, 476.1, 882, 739.1, and 868. Thank you.

25 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Any objections from the Defence counsel to

Page 4217

1 the tendering of those documents?

2 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] To some. This is a very long list.

3 We shall not be objecting to some of them, but we are objecting to

4 others. So in line with your decision, I have 30 days. I can tell you

5 straight off that I will not be objecting to the first group of documents,

6 if my colleagues will now help me. There are some that I know I will not

7 object to.

8 JUDGE LIU: Can you be more specific, counsel, with those

9 documents you do not object to, so that we could make decisions right

10 now?

11 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I do not object to 125.1. 126.1 will

12 be the subject of objection, and I'll do that in writing. I can, of

13 course, immediately say why, but I shall do it in writing. I simply

14 cannot believe that the agreements of three states or three ethnic

15 communities are submitted without signature, without seal, without a

16 heading or anything, just a plain sheet of paper. But needless to say, I

17 shall reason my attitude.

18 No objections to 127.1. This is the regulation of political

19 relations between Croats and Muslims.

20 JUDGE LIU: I'm sorry, I didn't see that document 127.1. Well,

21 Mr. Krsnik, could I suggest that before Monday you submit as a list, very

22 simple list, with those documents you do not object to, and with those

23 documents you are objecting to? And for those documents you are not

24 objecting to, they will automatically be admitted into evidence. Is that

25 a good way out, to save time now?

Page 4218












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Page 4219

1 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Yes, of course. Yes of course. Yes

2 of course, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

4 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] But the Defence will -- shall we wait

5 for the exhibits that we wish to tender? Shall I do it now, or shall I do

6 it in the end?

7 JUDGE LIU: I should hear from Mr. Seric, first.

8 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we -- in contrast with

9 our previous reasons, I object to the latest exhibits produced by the

10 Prosecution during the redirect. I cannot accept them simply because I

11 don't know what they are about. There is no translation. I don't know

12 what that is. And I object to this manner of production of documents.

13 And moreover, the witness can produce these documents and can use them

14 when he brings some other witnesses. Thank you.

15 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. I think the rulings made by this Trial

16 Chamber will apply to both parties equally.

17 Mr. Scott, would you please give some explanation to us about the

18 later bundle of the documents you submitted to us. What is the purpose

19 for that? And are there any ID numbers, if I may say that, on those

20 documents?

21 MR. SCOTT: Yes, Your Honour. Your Honour, the reason they were

22 brought up in re-examination was in direct response to a question on

23 cross-examination that we couldn't anticipate. I couldn't have marked

24 these documents before. Because counsel for Mr. Naletilic made the

25 assertion and engaged in a series of questions premised on the notion that

Page 4220

1 the so-called Bosniak/Croat ultimatum, first in January, January 15th,

2 1993, and then by Mr. Boban at the beginning of April 1993, were somehow

3 endorsed by - his own words - binding international agreements. Now,

4 that's, we submit, we submit, simply not the case. And the only way I can

5 respond to that is by providing the Chamber with evidence to the

6 contrary.

7 The documents, to answer your questions, the binder of the

8 documents -- I'm not sure, Your Honour, if the Court wants to take the

9 time for the whole bundle. I gave the exhibit numbers of the ones that we

10 referred to. I know time is precious. I assume the Judges may have some

11 questions for this witness.

12 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Scott, we are not very happy with this kind of

13 practice, at this late stage you produced such a bundle of documents for

14 us, but I understand you are not tendering these documents into the

15 evidence, and they are just reference materials at this stage. Of course,

16 you have full opportunity to do that with other witnesses and on other

17 occasions. So could I ask you in consultation with the Madam Registrar to

18 have proper ID numbers on all those documents so that it could be easily

19 referred to in the future case.

20 MR. SCOTT: Yes, Your Honour. In the interest of time, I do

21 believe they would be properly tendered. But in the interest of time, I

22 will follow your instructions, Mr. President. They are numbered. Every

23 document in this binder has an exhibit number assigned to it.

24 Thank you.

25 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Krsnik.

Page 4221

1 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, allow me to answer

2 these assertions by the Prosecutor in one sentence. What the Prosecutor

3 is saying is not true, and he is presenting a false picture to the

4 Chamber. The peace negotiations conducted in Geneva in January were

5 binding, and it was following the Geneva negotiations that the Vance-Owen

6 plan emerged. I needed to say that so that you would not be left with a

7 false image.

8 JUDGE LIU: I am not debating this issue at this moment, and you

9 promised me you only had one sentence.

10 Mr. Krsnik, do you have any documents to tender at this stage as

11 Defence evidence?

12 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Yes, of course. It is D1/24. It is

13 the letter which is called "Mostar Warning"; D1/25, the "Instructions for

14 the Muslim Soldier"; D1/26, the videotape. And I believe we have all

15 agreed regarding Exhibit D1/27, which is the "Glossary of Religious

16 Terms."

17 JUDGE LIU: Any objection, Mr. Prosecutor?

18 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, no objection to D1/24, the letter. We

19 do object to D1/25, the "Instructions to the Muslim Fighter" as

20 irrelevant. We object to the videotape, D1/26, as irrelevant. And

21 concerning the D1/27, the "Glossary of Religious Terms," I guess, Your

22 Honour, we do not object at this time subject to further review, having

23 just seen it today for the first time, but I assume there is going to be

24 no objection to it.

25 JUDGE LIU: So D1/24 and D1/27 are admitted into evidence.

Page 4222

1 MR. SCOTT: Yes, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE LIU: And you have the opportunity to submit your written

3 objections within 30 days.

4 MR. SCOTT: Yes, Your Honour. Thank you.

5 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

6 Judge Clark would like to ask the witness some questions.

7 Questioned by the Court:

8 JUDGE CLARK: Sir, I'm availing of an opportunity which will never

9 present itself to me again. I have the religious leader of the Islamic

10 community in Bosnia-Herzegovina, and I'm sure I'll never meet you again in

11 ordinary life. I've also heard from the Prosecution that you are the last

12 witness to deal with background.

13 I want to tell you by way of background from the Court that we had

14 a witness very early on in this trial who came from the town of Mostar but

15 who is a protected witness and, therefore, I can't mention his name. And

16 he was very helpful to the Court in background in dealing with the issues

17 in Mostar from a civilian point of view. He was not a religious man, and

18 he was not a military man. He dealt with what he considered to be the

19 terrible tragedy of the destruction of the multi-ethnicity of the pre-war

20 life of Mostar. Now, you are dealing with obviously a different side,

21 although I don't think you differ in many ways.

22 I want to have you, if you can, to clarify for me, the identity of

23 the Bosniak nation. Now, you said that Mostar had a rich heritage, that

24 it's 500 years old, and you mentioned that the Bosniak heritage, which was

25 suppressed during the communist regime, was also 500 years old. And then

Page 4223

1 you pointed out that you had -- you were there a long time.

2 Now, can I ask you this: Was Mostar an important town at the time

3 of the Ottoman Empire? Was it a Turkish town, an Ottoman town?

4 A. Yes, it was an important cultural and commercial town during the

5 Turkish rule.

6 JUDGE CLARK: Would it have been built, then, by the Turks? It

7 would.

8 A. Well, the core of the old city, these are all that remains of the

9 Ottoman architecture.

10 JUDGE CLARK: Do the Bosniak people, then, descend from the

11 original conquerors of this area? And there have been many conquerors,

12 the Balkans and many wars going back a long time. But does the town of

13 Mostar and the Bosniak people derive their ethnicity from the Ottoman

14 empire?

15 A. There are very few people who arrived on the wave of the Turkish

16 conquest in Bosnia-Herzegovina and stayed there as Ottomans, as Turks.

17 They were the government, the administration; whereas the rank and file

18 people, people who lived in those lands also, unfortunately --

19 unfortunately, as it is happening again -- at that time, that population,

20 the majority of that population were not recognised by the churches, by

21 the eastern and western church. So when the Ottomans arrived, they

22 embraced Islam in large numbers. So they are the autochthonymous [as

23 interpreted] population, the native population, not the Turks who came to

24 conquer and stayed there.

25 JUDGE CLARK: So what you are saying, they are predated even the

Page 4224

1 Ottoman empire, but because of whatever differences -- so ethnically, they

2 are totally different, and the religion has made them even more different?

3 A. That is correct, yes.

4 JUDGE CLARK: Now, that brings me then - thank you - brings me to

5 the mosques. Were many of these mosques very old mosques from the,

6 obviously, the Ottoman empire?

7 A. There is no mosque in Mostar younger than 400 years.

8 JUDGE CLARK: Can I take it that they were -- that their continued

9 existence was tolerated by the other national groups or ethnic groups who

10 were in the area equally for centuries?

11 A. [No audible response]

12 JUDGE CLARK: In other words, when the Ottoman empire fell, there

13 wasn't a wholesale destruction of Ottoman culture in Mostar?

14 A. [No audible response]

15 JUDGE CLARK: Are you saying there were no modern mosques at all

16 in the Mostar region and its environs, including the suburbs of Rodoc and

17 so on?

18 A. [No audible response]

19 JUDGE CLARK: You're nodding, and I think that means that you are

20 agreeing with me, that there were no modern mosques built.

21 A. Yes, there are some more recent mosques.

22 JUDGE CLARK: Were there any in Mostar?

23 A. In some suburbs.

24 JUDGE CLARK: Now, can you deal with the position of Catholic

25 churches and orthodox churches. Were there any of those in the area of

Page 4225

1 Mostar?

2 A. On the East Bank, there was no Catholic church. There was one in

3 the west part of the church, the Franciscan convent and the cathedral

4 church. In the settlement which is now called southeast municipality,

5 there is a Catholic church which survived with minor damages, and there

6 was no Muslim population there. But it has not been savaged. And in the

7 northern part, there is another Catholic church, which during the

8 conflicts between the Serbs and Croats and Bosniaks and Croats suffered

9 considerable damage, and it is now being reconstructed. And that work is

10 about to be finished. And there is a big orthodox church, the cathedral

11 church on the East Bank, but that has been razed to the ground.

12 And we are now trying -- if I can tell you that we are trying to

13 provide the necessary conditions for the restoration of that orthodox

14 church because it is the see of the orthodox archbishop. Now, because his

15 residence was destroyed, because the Serbs left Mostar, he has neither --

16 all he has is just an ancient small church. He has no office or anything

17 else. He is in Trebinje at present. And we'd like to make a breakthrough

18 to somehow make an opening and enable the return of Bosniaks and also to

19 achieve, by doing that, we would like to, in return, ensure the return of

20 Bosniaks to Trebinje and the restoration of their religious objects there.

21 JUDGE CLARK: Has there been any return to normality and mixture

22 of multi-ethnic institutions in Mostar? In other words, do Bosniaks live

23 on the West Bank, have Serbs come back?

24 A. Well, the return is a process underway, albeit slow. However, we

25 could say that of late -- rather, this year, there are a number of Serb

Page 4226

1 returnees, people who have come back to Mostar, and the Bosniak

2 population -- and that that population is concentrating in the west part

3 of the city. However, the administration -- that is, people are coming

4 back and communicating. But the administration, one could say Croat -- I

5 have to say that the Croat is really persistent. They want to maintain,

6 to sustain the division.

7 JUDGE CLARK: I see. Now, returning to the videotape that we saw,

8 and the documents that we read overnight, I read that the truth is a very

9 important part of the code of Islam but that during wartime, one is

10 permitted to tell an untruth. I think that's probably self-evident,

11 probably. If you're going to be captured by the enemy, you are permitted

12 not to spill the beans entirely. I accept that. But I take it that in

13 the situation where you are talking to us, we are not at war.

14 Did you genuinely not recognise that flag with the Arabic writing

15 that was shown yesterday?

16 A. I recognised it. Yes, I did recognise it. I feel there's some

17 confusion here.

18 JUDGE CLARK: [Previous translation continued] ... yesterday?

19 A. I said I did not recognise the text on the flag. I did recognise

20 the flag itself, but not the text. Today, the image was better, and I

21 could recognise the text, too. It seemed that we had a better copy today.

22 JUDGE CLARK: Now, in looking at it, I think all of us recognised

23 the uniform of the mujahedin quite distinct from the Islamic

24 interpretation of what a mujahedin is. You know what we are talking

25 about. I also saw pietsi [phoen] and hodzas and various other disturbing

Page 4227

1 elements, to say the least. I know that all the arguments, about that

2 this was made long after the indictment. But do you know if those same

3 people were involved in the conflict against the Croats in the early days

4 of the conflict, before it broke into war between the Croats and the

5 Muslims, or the Bosniaks, I should say.

6 A. Mm-hm.

7 JUDGE CLARK: They were. You are uncomfortable with that, I take

8 it.

9 A. I'd like you to clarify. I think I missed something. So could

10 you please clarify it for me.

11 JUDGE CLARK: I just wondered if you know, if those parties that I

12 described in the video -- and I know the video was made in 1995 and the

13 war was over. But if those same parties contributed soldiers, uniforms,

14 money, assistance to the Muslim side, who were not at that stage called

15 Bosniaks - I make a distinction - I should say the Muslim side, before the

16 hostilities in 1993, and late 1992.

17 A. Yes. Well, there were days the units did exist before but not in

18 such uniforms and not with these insignia.

19 JUDGE CLARK: Not with those internationally recognised emblems.

20 And then finally, in relation to war and instructions for the

21 Muslim fighter, do these instructions only apply when the faith of Islam

22 is an issue in the war? If a soldier is a Muslim, he belongs to the

23 Islamic faith, and he's fighting alongside other Muslims but the issue has

24 nothing to do with Islam - it might be a boundary dispute or some such

25 thing - are the same instructions given? Or are these confined to a war

Page 4228

1 with a religious element?

2 A. I am really glad that you put that question to me. I wanted to

3 tell the gentleman, the Defence attorney, something on this subject.

4 These rules that apply to commanders in the sense of their behaviour

5 towards prisoners, that can be applied only in Muslim states where the

6 shariat law is in force. So this is not binding on us in Bosnia at all.

7 We haven't any shariat laws according to which these rules would have to

8 be applied. I mean, there are commanders then, and there is a

9 court-martial then, and then that court-martial would have to investigate,

10 and then pass a verdict on liquidation -- I mean, that is not applicable

11 in Bosnia. We recognise the civil laws of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

12 JUDGE CLARK: [Previous translation continues] ... military law in

13 time of war, so can I take it --

14 A. Yes, yes.

15 JUDGE CLARK: [Previous translation continues] ... applies only in

16 country where shariat law is the dominant legal system, like in Saudi

17 Arabia, and I think in parts of North Africa?

18 A. Yes, exactly.

19 JUDGE CLARK: You've been really very helpful. I know I've gone

20 way outside the scope of the indictment in this, but I will never get the

21 opportunity to find out again. Thank you.

22 JUDGE LIU: Well, we have passed the scheduled time, but I will

23 ask the interpreter to give us a few minutes to finish with this witness

24 today.

25 Judge Diarra?

Page 4229












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Page 4230

1 JUDGE DIARRA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

2 Witness, I would also like to put a question to you in relation to

3 the film. You are a very educated, religious person, so you could give me

4 some very important clarifications. In Islam, in addition to traditional

5 religious holidays like aid el kebir [phoen] or mud [phoen], any Muslim

6 gathering has a spiritual aspect -- weddings, any kind of gatherings,

7 funerals, et cetera. During these gatherings, when a religious official

8 is called in, like yourself or an imam or a lower-ranking clergyman, what

9 is the meaning of his presence at these gatherings? Can you explain this

10 to us?

11 A. Thank you very much. I felt it necessary to refer to that event

12 or that parade. That event was organised by the army. It was the general

13 who the troops were parading for. I really wanted to say that, because on

14 the basis of the pictures, I wouldn't want people to get the impression

15 that we are some kind of military commanders who are very important in the

16 sense of organising the army. We are not that. We were asked as

17 authorities among the people to attend this festivity, as guests. It is

18 only natural. This was the day of the corps or whatever it was, and of

19 course, if the Mufti appeared there, he had to address the gathering. So

20 that was my task in all.

21 By your leave, by your leave, I would like to say quite openly -

22 now, this pertains to military organisation more - as a man who belongs to

23 a multi-ethnic community, who wants to live in that kind of a society, I

24 don't like those cries. I say that as a religious leader. That is

25 probably a consequence of everything that happened during the war.

Page 4231

1 Everybody has certain emotions and they want to prove themselves in front

2 of the people gathered there. However, there is no such unit any more.

3 This is a wartime unit. There aren't any in such uniforms or with such

4 banners, and everything has fitted into the framework prescribed by law.

5 I do beg your pardon for interjecting this way.

6 JUDGE DIARRA: [Interpretation] Thank you. This makes it possible

7 for me to understand this properly. I read the definition of "jihad" in a

8 dictionary, and it says there that that is the Muslim struggle for the

9 promotion of positive values and that is in the face of negative values

10 embodied by the devil and promoted by the devil. This interpretation that

11 you gave is more esoteric. Your explanation is better. The problem is

12 that we do not know why, before eating or even before entering these

13 premises, there is a special word that is uttered by the Muslims, and we

14 have understood that this had nothing to do with the fanatical context in

15 which the words "jihad" and other words are put today. Could you clarify

16 this for us now?

17 A. Thank you very much. I mentioned five elements, approximately,

18 and that's the definition of "jihad" in Arab terminology, and this is what

19 is decidedly stated, that is to say the defence of the state, the defence

20 of life, the defence of faith, the defence of property, and the defence of

21 dignity and honour. These are the five things that a person struggles

22 for. If any one of these five values is imperiled, then a man struggles

23 against that, fights a jihad in order to have justice prevail.

24 There is also the following interpretation. We can say that it

25 has the connotation of Islam as well, and the name of God, or rather the

Page 4232

1 present-day understanding of "jihad" is -- I mean, in the heads of people,

2 is a rather confused and confusing one. However, the first point you

3 made -- may I remind you of a sentence of Mohamed, who returned from a

4 major battle, and he came to the people and said, "We came back." Fierce

5 fighting was taking place there. People were losing their lives, et

6 cetera, and he said, "We came from a small bottle. What awaits us now is

7 a big battle." And these people were surprised and they asked him, "What

8 kind of big battle is this now? And where we were and where our lives

9 were threatened, that was a small battle, you say?" And then he said

10 precisely what you said, "That is the jihad against oneself, the jihad

11 within oneself, to fight for the positive, for the good, and to strike

12 this kind of balance so that goodness would prevail among people and

13 within people."

14 JUDGE DIARRA: [Interpretation] Thank you. Thank you very much.

15 You've answered my question.

16 JUDGE LIU: Thank you, Witness, for giving us your evidence. We

17 all wish you good luck.

18 Our special thanks will go to the interpreters and the court

19 reporters for their cooperation for these proceedings.

20 We are adjourned until 9.30 Monday morning.

21 [The witness withdrew]

22 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

23 1.13 p.m., to be reconvened on Monday,

24 the 22nd day of October, 2001, at 9.30 a.m.