Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 4233

1 Monday, 22 October 2001

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.35 a.m.

5 JUDGE LIU: Call the case, please, Madam Registrar.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is Case Number

7 IT-98-34-T, the Prosecutor versus Martinovic and Naletilic.

8 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Naletilic, have you been seen by a doctor?

9 THE ACCUSED NALETILIC: [Interpretation] Yes, and I had a scan, my

10 lungs, my neck. I wasn't seen by a doctor, though. We are waiting for

11 the report, and then they will call me.

12 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. How are you feeling now?

13 THE ACCUSED NALETILIC: [Interpretation] The same, the same as

14 before. No change.

15 JUDGE LIU: I see. Take care of yourself. You may sit down.

16 I would like to draw the parties' attention to some changes in the

17 trial schedule for the coming weeks. Mr. Seric, this might be

18 particularly interesting for you to schedule the visits of your client's

19 family with the registrar.

20 Tomorrow afternoon session will start at 3.00 because of the

21 Kupreskic appeal judgment. So we have to start a little bit late. As you

22 know, on Wednesday, October 24th, there is a UN holiday, so there will be

23 no court session. On Monday, October 29th, the next status conference in

24 the Milosevic case. Due to security reasons, no other trial will be held

25 on that day. Therefore, we will not sit on October 29th.

Page 4234

1 Notwithstanding a possible change of the trial hours due to the

2 outcome of the medical report on Mr. Naletilic's status of health, which

3 we'll receive as of November the 1st, we'll sit in the first and second

4 week of November during the regular court hours. In the third week of

5 November, due to the arrival of the new Judges, there are some changes on

6 the 22nd and the 23rd of November. On Thursday, 22nd, we will sit only

7 from 9.30 to 12.00, in the morning. In the afternoon, the new Judges will

8 give their solemn declaration in this courtroom. On Friday, November

9 23rd, an extraordinary plenary will take place in the morning. We will,

10 therefore, not sit on that day.

11 In December, we will sit during the normal court days in the first

12 week of December. In the second week, there is a plenary from Wednesday,

13 the 12th, until Friday, the 14th. We will, therefore, only be able to sit

14 on December 10th and 11th in the second week of December. The Christmas

15 Court recess starts on December 17th. The Tribunal will be recessed until

16 January the 4th, 2002. Thank you.

17 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President.

18 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Scott.

19 MR. SCOTT: I take it -- I don't have a calendar in front of me.

20 I apologise. Does that effectively mean that the 11th of December will be

21 our last court day before Christmas?

22 JUDGE LIU: Yes, I guess so, for this year.

23 MR. SCOTT: In terms of the 29th of October, there being no court

24 on that Monday, I wonder whether the Court would entertain having a full

25 Court day on Friday to help make up for that time.

Page 4235

1 JUDGE LIU: I'm not quite sure at this moment. I have to consult

2 with my colleagues concerning the time schedule.

3 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Scott, are you ready for your next witness?

5 MR. SCOTT: Yes, Your Honour. Mr. Poriouvaev will be handling the

6 next witness.


8 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Thank you, Your Honour. I would like to discuss

9 some questions relevant to our next witness in private session first.

10 JUDGE LIU: Well, we will go to the private session.

11 Yes, Mr. Krsnik?

12 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, just one question.

13 Perhaps we didn't understand very well. Are we starting tomorrow at 3.00

14 or is the break prolonged until 3.00 tomorrow?

15 JUDGE LIU: The break will be prolonged until 3.00.

16 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

17 MR. PORIOUVAEV: The witness who is called -- sorry, sorry.

18 [Private session]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 4236













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Page 4238

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [Open session]

7 JUDGE LIU: We are now in the open session. Witness, you may sit

8 down, please.

9 Examined by Mr. Poriouvaev:

10 Q. Witness, your request for protective measures has been granted by

11 the Trial Chamber. You will have a pseudonym and you will be called in

12 the Court Witness BB or Witness Double B, and you also will have facial

13 distortion. Now the usher will give you a sheet of paper. You should

14 read it but don't read it aloud, and if everything is all right, you may

15 say yes or no, if your name is correctly spelled and your birthday is

16 correct.

17 A. Yes.

18 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Shall I proceed?

19 JUDGE LIU: Yes, yes, please.


21 Q. Witness BB, did you have any military training in the former

22 Yugoslavia?

23 A. Yes. The school for reserve officers in Karlovac.

24 Q. When did you have this training?

25 A. 1976. The training was six months long, and then I went for

Page 4239

1 additional training in the rank of -- in the rank of sergeant, interim

2 sergeant. And then after I got out, I had five or six drills, because

3 that was the system in the former Yugoslavia. So I eventually got the

4 rank of reserve captain.

5 Q. Did you belong to any military formation in 1992 and 1993?

6 A. Yes. In 1992, from the beginning of July, I belonged to an HVO

7 unit, the 4th Battalion more precisely, the group for maintenance of

8 facilities. The command was at Rondo, and I spent three months in Tihomir

9 Misic Barracks, located on the left bank of the Neretva River.

10 Q. Who was the commander?

11 A. At the outset, in the barracks, it was a certain Mr. Mikolic and

12 then he was replaced by a new commander whom I don't remember, and the

13 commander of the 4th Battalion was Misic.

14 Q. How long did you remain within the 4th Battalion of the HVO?

15 A. I remained in the 4th Battalion of the HVO until the attack on the

16 Vranica building on the 9th of May, 1992.

17 Q. Could you recount what happened on the 9th of May in Mostar?

18 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, the year was 1993.

19 A. I lived on the Vranica building on the second floor which had a

20 view of the School of Economics. Below me was the entrance to the command

21 of the Mostar Brigade on the right-hand side; and on the left-hand side,

22 there was the command of the BH army corps. Around 1500 hours, an

23 UNPROFOR tank, which was located at the intersection of Stjepan Radica and

24 Ante Zvonica Streets, and it had been standing there for 10 or 15 days

25 already, because tensions were growing between the BH army and the HVO,

Page 4240

1 was this located. And since I wake up very easily, I heard the tank move

2 and leave. Around 10 to 5.00, the first grenade hit the room where I

3 was --

4 Q. We will stop for a moment.

5 MR. PORIOUVAEV: I would like the usher to show the witness

6 Exhibit Number P11.8 and get ready Exhibits 16.4 and 16.5, I mean

7 P exhibits, of course.

8 Mr. Usher, place Exhibit Number 11.8 on the ELMO. There is

9 something wrong with the monitor, I suggest.

10 JUDGE CLARK: Can I just take this opportunity to ask you whether

11 the transcript, which shows that around 1500 hours, the UNPROFOR tank, do

12 you mean that's 3.00 in the afternoon?

13 A. No, it was 3.00 a.m., 3.00 a.m.

14 MR. PORIOUVAEV: 3.00 a.m., yes.

15 THE REGISTRAR: The audio/video booth just informed me that

16 something is wrong with the ELMO and they are fixing it in a second.

17 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Okay. Then we can do without the exhibits maybe

18 at this point, unfortunately. I would like the Trial Chamber to see

19 something more.

20 JUDGE LIU: I hope it could be fixed during the break.

21 Okay, sure, thank you.


23 Q. Witness, then in the circumstances, we should proceed with the

24 testimony. Please, go ahead.

25 A. After the first shell from a hand-held launcher, shooting started

Page 4241

1 from all sides, from infantry weapons, from anti-aircraft cannons, from I

2 don't know what else. All the tenants in the building, which is 11 floors

3 high, ran down to the cellar to find shelter because they didn't know what

4 was going on. Down in the cellar we remained that entire day, the 9th,

5 the entire night between the 9th and the 10th, and the day of the 10th

6 until 11.00 when HVO units arrived and took control of the cellar,

7 captured the cellar. Of course, the tenants ran back to their

8 apartments.

9 Then through a public address system, the commander of the ATG

10 group, anti-terrorist group, Juka Prazina, made an announcement and asked

11 the army to surrender. There were about 10 soldiers who took off their

12 uniforms and put on civilian clothes. Then one gentleman talked to Juka

13 Prazina also through the public address system on behalf of the civilians

14 and said that both the civilians and those soldiers who took off their

15 uniforms would, indeed, surrender and get out. At that moment, three

16 floors, three top-most floors and two floors -- two first floors were

17 already burning on the side of the School of Economics, and the -- it was

18 becoming insufferable inside the building. And judging by the -- after

19 the conversation between Juka Prazina and this gentleman who spoke on

20 behalf of the civilians, they agreed, and the civilians began leaving the

21 building. We got out into Radica Street where we were met by Jusuf Juka

22 with his fighting men --

23 Q. I will you stop here for a moment because the ELMO is all right

24 now. We can use our exhibits.

25 MR. PORIOUVAEV: So Exhibit P11.18, I see here. It's a map.

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Page 4243

1 THE REGISTRAR: I have P11.8.

2 MR. PORIOUVAEV: 18, I'm sorry. It's a mistake. Awfully sorry

3 for that.

4 You may place the map of Mostar on the ELMO.

5 Q. Witness BB, would you indicate on the map the place where Vranica

6 building was located? Just indicate it with the pointer.

7 A. The Vranica building was located right here.

8 Q. Just for the record, please, name the street.

9 A. Stjepan Radica Street, and there was a small street here by the

10 name of Spojna between the School of Economics, which is located here, and

11 the Vranica building, which is located here.

12 Q. Would you just draw a sketch of the building with the marker?

13 A. Yes. The School of Economics, this is Vranica, this is the

14 extension of these buildings, and this here is the School of Economics.

15 Q. You may just put "BB" on the sketch. You indicated Vranica

16 building?

17 A. [Marks]

18 THE INTERPRETER: Could counsel please approach the microphone

19 when questioning? Thanks.

20 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Okay. Thank you very much. Now I ask you to

21 place on the ELMO Exhibit number P16.4.

22 Q. Witness, what depicts this picture?

23 A. This is the Vranica building after the attack of the Croatian

24 Defence Council that --

25 Q. Would you indicate the -- point to your apartment more or less in

Page 4244

1 this building?

2 A. Yes. This is where the apartment was.

3 Q. And was there the rear side of the building also shelled?

4 A. No, because it was on the yards between these buildings and the

5 continuation of Radica Street, which goes on for another couple hundred

6 metres, and there is a passageway through which you enter this building

7 here and the other two buildings that are over there.

8 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Now -- thank you. Now you may place Exhibit

9 16.5.

10 Q. Which part of the building is it? I mean, there is some entrance

11 to the building. To which area does it lead?

12 A. This is the entrance to the corps command and this was to the

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted].

15 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, you probably understand

16 what I'm trying to say. He was -- the witness was only supposed to show

17 the entrance to the building.

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 4245


2 Q. Witness BB, did you participate in the defence of the building

3 along with army soldiers?

4 A. No. I did not participate. I was with the other civilians.

5 Q. Did you know Juka Prazina before?

6 A. Not personally. I knew him from sight. He had come to Mostar a

7 number of times to Banovac and other places, but it was a name that was

8 well -- Balinovac. It was a well-known name.

9 Q. Was Juka's unit or his soldiers the only ones you saw in the

10 street on the 10th of May?

11 A. No. When we were all brought to the yard of the School of

12 Economics, which was facing the avenija -- I saw Colonel Zelijko Bosnjak

13 from the Convicts Battalion with six or seven of his soldiers. They were

14 standing off to the side, and they had a red, white and blue insignia.

15 Juka's fighters were in front of us. Juka had brought out all the young

16 ones out, and five or six of us who were a bit older. He first asked

17 whether there were any civilians among them. There were some. He told

18 them to go home. The others whom they did not separate out had to go to

19 the Velez stadium, which is at the Bijeli Brijeg. He kept us there for

20 about two hours. He checked our documents. That is, his fighters did.

21 If they found any money in wallets, they took that money. Then after

22 that, in a column, two by two, he led us through on to Ante Zvonica

23 Street, to the HVO ministry. This is what it was called at that time.

24 That was in the old building of the Zagreb Bank, and there we were met by

25 Tuta, Misic, Primorac, commander, I believe, of the corps. There were

Page 4246

1 another 100 men in uniform there.

2 Q. Witness, would you point and just answer my question. You just

3 told that you saw -- you had seen Zeljko Bosnjak, and he was a member of

4 the Convicts Battalion. Did you know Zeljko Bosnjak before?

5 A. Just superficially, because he used to install poker machines in

6 coffee bars and things like that so I knew him from there.

7 Q. And how did you learn that he was a member of the Convicts

8 Battalion?

9 A. When we were at Siroki Brijeg, I saw him when we worked on a

10 canal, I saw him along with Tuta, and we knew that he was a colonel with

11 the Convicts Battalion.

12 Q. And now you may go ahead with what happened at the -- in the area

13 of Ministry of Defence, when you saw Tuta.

14 A. Yes. Tuta, Misic, Juka, and Primorac were at the head of the

15 column where there was a member of the army who had to carry a picture of

16 Sefer Halilovic which was given to him personally by Juka. And then Tuta,

17 holding a Motorola in his hand, hit this person whose name I don't want to

18 mention now. He hit him in the face. He broke his Motorola against his

19 face, and the man was all bloodied. Misic then jumped in and started to

20 curse our balijas mothers, saying that we had killed his son. And then

21 general chaos ensued. The ones who were -- who had been standing to the

22 side started beating anybody in the column. Misic pulled out his pistol

23 and shot around. Juka Prazina also jumped in, and I believe Primorac as

24 well, and said that he had promised us that we would not be touched.

25 Then Tuta said, verbatim, "Take this to Siroki and execute them."

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Page 4248

1 They placed us on a bus, which had been prepared previously. They led us

2 in, and Juka took the man who had been hit by Tuta with Motorola and

3 placed him in his car, so he never went with us to Siroki Brijeg.

4 Q. Will you stop here, Witness. And now we should clarify some

5 questions. You just explained to the Trial Chamber that one of the

6 persons you saw in the area of the ministry was Tuta.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Did you know him before? Did you see him before?

9 A. Only by sight, yes, but I did used to see him. At Cim. That was

10 a well-known restaurant, that is where I had seen him before. And I knew

11 that that was him.

12 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Now, Your Honour, I think that we should go into

13 private session for some minutes because the witness did not give us a

14 name of a person who was hit by Tuta. I think that you will need this

15 name.

16 JUDGE LIU: We will go to the private session.

17 [Private session]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 4249

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7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

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21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [Open session]


25 Q. Witness, let's just dwell a little bit on Tuta. Can you describe

Page 4250

1 him.

2 A. Yes. Shortish.

3 Q. [Previous translation continued]...

4 A. Excuse me, I did not understand you.

5 Q. At the moment you saw him, how he looked like that moment. That's

6 what I want to hear from you.

7 A. Again I didn't -- how did he look? He looked angry, but he was

8 shortish with a beard, skinny, very characteristic looking.

9 Q. Was he dressed in a uniform?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Do you remember what kind of uniform was on him?

12 A. Camouflage.

13 Q. Did he have patches, badges?

14 A. We were very afraid. We did not look out for that.

15 Q. And did you notice how the people surrounding him were treating

16 him, were treating Tuta? I mean, how did they address him? Did they

17 pronounce any military rank or something like that, or his name or

18 something like that?

19 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Meek.

20 MR. MEEK: Mr. President, Your Honours, I must object to the

21 suggestive and leading question. Thank you.

22 JUDGE LIU: It's a suggestive and leading question,

23 Mr. Prosecutor.

24 MR. PORIOUVAEV: I apologise for that.

25 JUDGE LIU: You have to rephrase your question.

Page 4251

1 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Yes, yes.

2 Q. Okay, the first question was how the people surrounding Tuta were

3 treating him.

4 A. When we arrived, the men around Tuta were all expectant. They

5 wanted to see what he was going to do. Nobody addressed him because he

6 immediately started to shout and he hit this person whom I had named.

7 So nobody addressed him in any way. Everybody was just waiting to

8 see what he was going to do.

9 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Since the witness gave a response, I withdraw my

10 two questions about the rank and the name.

11 Q. Did you know Tuta's real name?

12 A. Yes, Mladen Naletilic.

13 Q. Okay. Now, go ahead with the MUP station in Siroki Brijeg. Had

14 you ever been there before you were taken there on the 10th of May?

15 A. No, never. When they brought us there in the bus, they parked it

16 in front of the MUP building. Juka Prazina's fighters were there with us,

17 who had come in the bus with us. They lined us up. And the civilian

18 police also came out and they stood behind these Juka's fighters, because

19 it was clear that Juka's people were the ones in command. And then

20 passers-by, who were passing by there because there were buildings around,

21 and they were in uniforms, they started beating us. This went on for

22 about 15 or 20 minutes. And then the police took us in, inside the

23 building. They took away our belts. We had to take everything out of our

24 pockets and leave it at the entrance. They took us to the basement, where

25 there were two -- actually there were three solitary cells, but they first

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Page 4253

1 filled up one and then the rest of them were brought into the second

2 cell. When we entered, I found there two gentlemen who, according to the

3 story that they told us, had come there the day before. I know their

4 names. I do not want to mention them.

5 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Your Honour, could we go into private session for

6 some seconds, maybe?

7 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We will go to the private session.

8 [Private session]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

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Page 4254

1 [redacted].

2 [Open session]

3 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we are in open session.

4 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Thank you very much.

5 Q. Do you know who was in command, in charge, of MUP station?

6 A. Yes, I do. A man who came in camouflage uniform and who called

7 himself Cane, and he was with the Convicts Battalion. He was the prison

8 warden.

9 Q. And who were the guards in MUP station?

10 A. The guards were civilian police who clearly were -- did not have

11 command over the prison because two hours after we were brought there, we

12 were branded as the men from the Vranica, and men in camouflage and black

13 and other uniforms started arriving. The police was obliged to open the

14 doors to our cells. They came in and beat us randomly.

15 Q. Did they beat you?

16 A. Yes. I was personally beaten by Romeo Blazevic, B-l-a-z-e-v-i-c,

17 and Darko Dodig also came with him, D-o-d-i-g, and a waiter whose first

18 name was Vinko, and I don't know his last name. That was at Siroki

19 Brijeg. They beat people in my cell, then they moved on to the next cell,

20 and they continued with the beating there.

21 Q. Do you know to which units all those people you just gave us in

22 your testimony belong?

23 A. Romeo Blazevic, from what we heard, was a member of the Mostar ATG

24 group, which was part of the Convicts Battalion.

25 Q. Darko Dodig?

Page 4255

1 A. I don't know to which group he belonged exactly. I also saw him

2 later, during other incidents.

3 Q. What kind of food did you receive in MUP station?

4 A. We received one tin per six people. I think it was something like

5 200 grams, and a quarter of a loaf of bread per day.

6 Q. Did they take you outside of MUP station?

7 A. Yes. Three or four days later, we were taken to a swimming pool

8 which was perhaps 700 or 800 metres away from the MUP building, and we

9 were to start clearing it, taking out the rocks that were inside.

10 Q. Did you see Tuta at that time in the area of the swimming pool?

11 A. Yes. I did see Tuta. Since the man who was in charge of the

12 swimming pool was one of Tuta's fighting men, nicknamed Jablanica, Tuta

13 would come to carry out an inspection, oversee the works, see how it's

14 coming along, and on one occasion, he came together with Colonel Bosnjak.

15 They didn't beat us or touch us at all then. And after that we stayed for

16 just another four days. Since on the seventh day we got a very harsh

17 beating from Cikota, five men from our room, from my room, and four men

18 from the next room, were taken out one by one to a room in the basement.

19 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Meek?

20 MR. MEEK: Mr. President, Your Honours, I believe that the

21 question was very simply: Did he see Mr. Naletilic? He answered that

22 question. And now he is being non-responsive to the question and I object

23 to the non-responsive nature of the answer at this point. Thank you.

24 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Prosecutor, would you please guide your

25 witness to the point.

Page 4256

1 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Yes, Your Honour, thank you very much. But I

2 could not stop the witness since he is willing to narrate.

3 Q. You mentioned now Cikota. Do you know -- did you know his first

4 name?

5 A. No, I didn't know it then. I learned it later.

6 Q. When did you learn his name?

7 A. When he left that evening, the policemen who were taking us to

8 wash ourselves told us the name of the man who had visited. There were

9 another three men from the Convicts Battalion present, together with him.

10 And the policemen then identified him for us. That's when I learned his

11 name.

12 Q. Do you know to which unit he belonged?

13 A. Yes. The Convicts Battalion.

14 Q. Okay. How did you know that? How did you learn it?

15 A. We were told that day by the policemen, and then he told us about

16 it himself. He told us various stories, both good and bad, involving the

17 Convicts Battalion.

18 Q. Now, Witness, since you were stopped by my learned colleague, I

19 would like to ask the question. What happened in the basement when you

20 were taken one by one from your cell and, according to your testimony,

21 there was a harsh beating from Cikota? Could you dwell a little bit on

22 this question.

23 A. Yes. Before myself, he took out two men one by one. I was the

24 third in line. I don't know what the criteria were. When I got out, a

25 man about whom I later learned that he was from Rijeka was standing beside

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Page 4258

1 him. On the right-hand side, on a bench, there was an older plump man

2 sitting, and then Cikota started kicking me. Since he's tall, lanky, and

3 long-legged, he started kicking me and beating me on the head. And then

4 he handcuffed me to the banister of the stairs leading into that area.

5 He extinguished two cigarettes on my tongue and forced me to swallow them,

6 never stopping the beating and the kicking. All of this lasted for about

7 15 minutes. And then he put me back in the cell after which he moved to

8 another cell and started taking people out from there.

9 The next day, Cane, the warden of the prison, came and said that

10 the best thing for us would be to transfer to Ljubuski, which was about

11 15 or 20 kilometres away. And indeed, the next day, in the afternoon, we

12 were transferred on a bus to the Ljubuski prison.

13 Q. Witness, I just asked you about Cikota's first name, but I don't

14 see the response in the transcript. Maybe you didn't answer my question.

15 A. Ivan Hrkac is his name, and the nickname is Cikota.

16 Q. Thank you. You may proceed with Ljubuski now.

17 A. We were brought to Ljubuski in the evening at dusk, and we were by

18 then 36. 33 of us brought from Mostar, plus two men who were already

19 there, plus another man, a professor, from Mostar who was brought just

20 with his socks on his feet, with his jaw swollen, who told us that he had

21 been beaten and brought, according to his own words, by Stela and his men,

22 Stela personally.

23 The 36 of us were taken to a cell which was about 5 metres long,

24 perhaps even less, about a metre 20, metre 30 wide. And we calculated

25 that we had about 33 square centimetres per person. We slept standing

Page 4259

1 up. Of course, you can't call it sleeping. We stood up the whole night

2 because we couldn't even crouch for lack of space. The next day, we were

3 only taken out once, for lunch. And there we were given pork paste, which

4 most of us didn't want to eat. In the evening, we were taken out again,

5 taken outside to get some air. And then --

6 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Meek.

7 MR. MEEK: May it please, Mr. President and Your Honours, I

8 apologise. But I'm looking at line 8 on page 21, and it wasn't even a

9 question. It was just, May we proceed to Ljubuski. So my objection would

10 be there's no question in front of this witness, number one; and number

11 two, if there was a question, he has become nonresponsive at this point.

12 Thank you.

13 JUDGE LIU: I believe that the witness is quite responsive

14 concerning the situation in Ljubuski, but it is really not a question.

15 MR. PORIOUVAEV: There was a question, what happened in Ljubuski?

16 I just told the witness, just what happened in Ljubuski and proceed with

17 Ljubuski. What kind of question --

18 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Prosecutor, you have to phrase your question

19 in the form of a question, so that at least it will give some guidance to

20 the witness.

21 MR. PORIOUVAEV: All right.

22 Q. Witness, how were you treated in Ljubuski by the persons who were

23 in charge of the camp and other people?

24 A. As I already said, we were taken to isolation cells, or rather one

25 isolation cell, all 36 of us. There was no space to even crouch or to sit

Page 4260

1 down. The door was closed, and the small window on the door was also

2 closed. Since it is an old building and there are cracks in the wall in

3 corners, the only air we got was from those cracks. The first time we

4 were allowed to go out was the next day for lunch, and then we were given

5 only half an hour. And after that, as men from Vranica, we no longer had

6 any right to leave the cell. The next day, we were taken out. We were

7 allowed to get out alone, only us, without the other prisoners. We

8 remained outside for ten minutes before we were brought back again. We

9 were taken out again for lunch. I don't remember what we had, but it was

10 some sort of lentils or peas. There were people from Sovici and Jablanica

11 and other places, and there were people from Mostar, some of them

12 soldiers. Others were civilians. In the afternoon, several of us were

13 taken out, and then came -- then arrived Ernest Takac, then a man with a

14 last name of Peric, then Pehar, nicknamed Dolma, and they started beating

15 us with all sorts of things. There were thick electric cables tied one to

16 another, seven centimetres thick or thereabouts, and that's what they beat

17 us with.

18 Q. Witness, do you know from which unit Ernest Takac was and also

19 another -- the second person, Pehar, whose nickname was Dolma?

20 A. According to others, it's a group that was established in Mostar,

21 and I think they too belonged to the ATG, the anti-terrorist group.

22 Q. How long did you stay in Ljubuski?

23 A. We spent another night there. And the next day, around noon,

24 there arrived Jablanica, accompanied by another two men. There was Medic,

25 whose father owned a well-known restaurant in Mostar before the war, and

Page 4261

1 there was another man in his entourage, and they had arrived to take 18 of

2 us to Siroki Brijeg again to finish work on the swimming pool and other

3 works.

4 Q. [Previous translation continues]...

5 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Prosecutor, would you please ask your

6 question again? Because we don't see it.

7 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Sorry, sorry.

8 Q. Witness, you just gave -- given the name of Jablanica?

9 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel speak into the microphone,

10 please?


12 Q. [No microphone] ... swimming pool?

13 A. Yes. He came to fetch us back, because the swimming pool wasn't

14 finished. We had worked on it for about four days before going to

15 Ljubuski.

16 Q. [Previous translation continues]... which unit he was?

17 A. From the Convicts Battalion.

18 Q. So, witness, I would like usher to place Exhibit P26.10 on the

19 ELMO.

20 A. This is the swimming pool.

21 Q. [Previous translation continues]...

22 A. Okay.

23 Q. What does this picture depict?

24 A. This here is the swimming pool on which we worked. First of all,

25 we removed the stones, and then we cleared the shrubbery around it, and

Page 4262












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13 English transcripts.













Page 4263

1 then we cleared a small brook on this side, through which the water flows

2 and fills the pool. The boss here was Jablanica, whom I mentioned

3 before. Tuta arrived across this bridge. He would go around, inspect,

4 together with Jablanica, because the guards who were guarding us said that

5 the two of them together were going to turn it into sports and recreation

6 grounds.

7 Q. [Previous translation continues]... exhibit away. Witness BB, you

8 were taken, according to your witness statement, testimony, you were taken

9 just to the swimming pool and where were you detained at that time? I

10 mean after Ljubuski.

11 A. We spent only three days in prison, and then we were transferred

12 to the Tobacco Institute, which was the quarters of the Convicts Battalion

13 command. And there we were put in a sort of hut, for our own safety, as

14 they said, because the guards who were guarding us were from the Convicts

15 Battalion.

16 Q. [Previous translation continues]... P26.9 on the ELMO?

17 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Prosecutor, I think you have to wait until the

18 translation finishes. For several times, we cannot get translation. We

19 only catch half of your sentence in the transcript, and you have to speak

20 into the microphone. I understand there is some problem with this mic,

21 but you have to be very careful to speak into the microphone.

22 MR. PORIOUVAEV: I will try to fix it properly.

23 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

24 Q. Witness, had you ever been in Siroki Brijeg before you were taken

25 there on the 10th of May?

Page 4264

1 A. In passing, yes. I passed through Siroki Brijeg.

2 Q. Do you know what the picture on the ELMO means?

3 A. This is the old Tobacco Institute where we were imprisoned in this

4 building here, more precisely the lower half of this building.

5 Q. [Previous translation continues]... Which building do you mean?

6 A. Behind this building, you can see a red roof.

7 Q. Yes, just the building --

8 A. This building is outside the fence of the Tobacco Institute.

9 Q. [Previous translation continues]...

10 A. Just outside this building, just outside, it doesn't belong to the

11 perimeter of the Tobacco Institute. This red roof here in the lower half

12 of the building were us prisoners, and the other half belonged to the

13 so-called Poskok battalion. Half of this prefab building belonged to

14 them; and in the other half, we were kept. This here --

15 Q. Do you mean the small building with the red roof as well?

16 A. -- this is Tuta's command. Because we went there to paint the

17 walls of the upstairs rooms, because Tuta was supposed to move in

18 upstairs. We washed the carpets, cleaned the windows, and we prepared it

19 for his moving in. There was an incident on one occasion, two of his men

20 got into a fight, and he got out to see what the noise was all about.

21 Q. Witness, just take a marker, please, and indicate with number 1

22 the building where you were kept.

23 A. [Marks]

24 Q. Just with a number 1, the building where you were kept, mark with

25 marker. Number 1.

Page 4265

1 A. [Marks]

2 Q. Yes, and now with number 2, the building where, according to your

3 testimony, Tuta's headquarters were located.

4 A. [Marks]

5 Q. Yes. And I see that there is a -- one construction which just

6 reminds me of the swimming pool. Is it the same swimming pool you were

7 working? I mean, just to the right side.

8 A. Yes, this is the swimming pool, the same swimming pool on which we

9 had worked from the fourth day of our arrival onwards. This is the

10 swimming pool. This is the bridge that we used to cross. Here was the

11 auxiliary entrance through which we got in in order to avoid crossing the

12 perimeter.

13 Q. Please mark it with number 3. Swimming pool.

14 A. [Marks]

15 Q. Thank you. When did you finish your job on the swimming pool?

16 MR. PORIOUVAEV: You may take away the exhibit, please.

17 A. I can't remember exactly, but I know we worked on it for about a

18 month.

19 Q. Were you involved in some other jobs while you were kept in the

20 Tobacco Institute?

21 A. The Tobacco Institute, while we were there, people came. When we

22 were returned, the day after our return, even Cikota came to take us to

23 his own house to chop wood for two days. Those were the first two days

24 while we were still in prison, not at the Tobacco Institute. After that,

25 we went in groups of three, four, five men to various houses. I went to

Page 4266

1 Mamici together with three other men to take down a wall, dig. Then we

2 went to Posusje, did some work in a big storage house. It was a storage

3 of footwear and food. And we arranged it. We also worked in the storage

4 facility of the Poskok battalion. And as far as Cikota's house is

5 concerned, I worked there for about a month, not in a row but for five

6 days -- for five-day intervals. Some men went to work in Zeljko Bosnjak's

7 house. When you get out of Mostar -- towards Mostar from Siroki Brijeg,

8 that's the place where he had started to build the house. I can't

9 remember exactly now.

10 In July, we started digging a canal, as we later realised about

11 500 metres from Tuta's house towards the main road, and in the direction

12 of the water supply reservoir. With interruptions, we worked throughout

13 July and August, 13 of us, with another group of about 10 to 12 men,

14 prisoners, who were kept in the school building near Brkovic -- sorry,

15 Dobrkovic.

16 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Witness, could we stop here? Because it's time

17 for the break, I think.

18 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we will resume at 11.30.

19 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.

20 --- On resuming at 11.30 a.m.

21 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Prosecutor, please continue.

22 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Yes, thank you.

23 Q. Witness, I would like to check with you in one issue, just if you

24 look at paragraph 28, line 5, of the transcript, where you were talking

25 about some school building. I would like to clarify the name of this

Page 4267












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13 English transcripts.













Page 4268

1 school building, because it's -- I can't make it out from our transcript.

2 Could you repeat the name of that school?

3 A. Dobrkovic.

4 Q. Could you spell it, please? It's not an easy name.

5 A. D-o-b-r-k-o-v-i-c.

6 Q. Dobrkovic. Thank you. So, witness, you've just claimed that you

7 were working just not far from Tuta's house. How did you learn that the

8 house you were talking about belonged to Tuta?

9 A. While we worked there, I saw Tuta on two occasions coming out of

10 the door of that building, to the side of where our bus was parked. They

11 used to bus us in, and the civilian policemen were escorting us. On one

12 occasion, it was parked near the gate and Tuta came out and started

13 yelling at the driver and the policemen because they had parked too

14 close. And on subsequent days, we stepped -- we would step off the bus

15 300 metres before the house, and the guards, who were members of the

16 Convicts Battalion and those who guarded us were home guards, they told us

17 that that was Tuta's house.

18 Q. Did you work inside of the house itself or not? I mean Tuta's

19 house.

20 A. No.

21 Q. Did you ever approach that house?

22 A. No, because it was fenced off. Actually, there was a wall, a

23 stone wall, on both sides of the gate, and we passed about 30 metres away

24 from that wall. From that vantage point, you could only see a portion of

25 the roof of the house. We could see the house from the street on the

Page 4269

1 other side, when we were going around. When we were going to the

2 Dobrkovic school, that is the side from which you could see the house.

3 And the guards identified it as Tuta's house.

4 Q. Thank you. What kind of job did you perform while working on the

5 construction site of the canal?

6 A. That was a hill, I don't know, 100, 150 metres elevation, and we

7 dug a canal, breaking the rock by the roadside, and it was about -- once

8 it was finished, it was about 300 metres long, and it was about one metre

9 wide and one metre deep.

10 Q. How many hours per day did you work?

11 A. We would leave in the morning, around 8.00, and then we were there

12 until 5.00 in the afternoon.

13 Q. Did anyone pay you for your job?

14 A. No, nobody paid us. And the food that we were getting over there

15 at this prefab building where we slept consisted of two slices of bread

16 and some jam. Then we would bring that along. The first five days, the

17 food was being delivered there. We also received a little -- some water,

18 three, two-litre bottles for a group of 20 to 25 of us. And this was

19 during the month of August, when the temperatures are very high. So there

20 you have it.

21 Q. Did you communicate with prisoners from Dobrkovic school?

22 A. Yes. We talked because we were working together on that canal,

23 and as I said, there were between sometime 10, sometime 12, sometime 15,

24 depended on the day, and the 13 of us made about 25 in total each day.

25 Q. Did they tell you in what conditions they were kept in Dobrkovic

Page 4270

1 detention facility?

2 A. Yes. They talked about it. They slept on the floor. They had

3 blankets which they used for a pillow. And because they were guarded by

4 the home guards, they themselves called themselves the home guards, men in

5 uniform could come and beat us, and this happened. And also they were

6 being hit with tinned food which they kept, they tried to hide. Sometimes

7 they would get it in the morning and they hid it in order to eat it at a

8 later time, so they were beaten by -- hit with these. And we could see

9 that because they were taking off their T-shirts and shirts because of the

10 heat, and we could see the black-and-blue marks on them.

11 Q. Did they tell you who was beating them?

12 A. They, themselves, did not know at first who was coming in a red

13 Porsche until we told them that this person's name was Ivan Hrkac, called

14 Cikota. And he always had with him at least one other fighter in uniform

15 who also mistreated -- took part in the mistreatment. One day, when we

16 were coming back from work, and they would leave earlier, we saw down

17 there some commotion in front of the school building. We also saw a car

18 which drove away. Our driver was told to immediately take us away, not to

19 linger on. And the next day, they told us that even Cikota had come. And

20 a person who was skilled in karate, they had taken out a teacher. This

21 karate person kicked him in the chest, and the man died.

22 Q. Do you know the name of that man who died?

23 A. No, because he did not beat us.

24 Q. It seems to me that you haven't understood my question. I'm just

25 asking you about the person who, according to the Dobrkovic prisoners,

Page 4271

1 died after the beating.

2 A. Yes, I do. That was Professor Krilic, K-r-i-l-i-c.

3 Q. Thank you. And do you know who was in charge of Dobrkovic

4 detention facilities? Did they tell you, I mean prisoners?

5 A. No, I do not know.

6 Q. Who was in charge of your detention facilities in the Tobacco

7 Institute area?

8 A. Mladen Naletilic, Tuta, and the Convicts Battalion.

9 Q. Why do you think so?

10 A. Because at first, only members of the Convicts Battalion could

11 enter there. Later on, the fighters of the Poskok Battalion were also

12 able to enter.

13 Q. And how did they treat you?

14 A. The guards who guarded us were from the Convicts Battalion, and

15 some of them even showed us some identity cards. And apparently by

16 certain numbers, digits, you could tell that they were from that

17 battalion. And some guards, when they arrived, when some individuals in

18 uniform would come, the three guards, because there were three per shift,

19 they could open -- unlock the doors, and we were spread over three rooms

20 where we slept. Then they would unlock the door, and then whoever would

21 want to come in would come in and beat us.

22 Q. Did you ever see Tuta in your detention facilities? I mean in the

23 Tobacco Institute.

24 A. Yes, when we painted his offices on the top floor when he was

25 supposed to move in there. He came to see how the work was progressing,

Page 4272












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13 English transcripts.













Page 4273

1 and we saw him from the window. I saw him twice with Stela. And I saw

2 him also when he came out to calm down the two of his men, the two guards

3 who had an altercation, and they were the guards who were guarding us.

4 Q. Did any other of the KB - I mean the Convicts Battalion - unit

5 ever visit the detention facilities? I mean -- sorry. Did any other

6 commander, I mean.

7 A. On the 78th days -- because this is how I memorized events, by the

8 days, because we counted. On the 78th day, Colonel Andabak came with two

9 fighters of the Convicts Battalion. I know that one of them was nicknamed

10 "Robija." I don't know the name of the other one. He was shorter.

11 There were three of us sleeping in one cell. I would not like to divulge

12 their names right now. He took out one of them. Ten minutes later, he

13 took out the next one, and I had to step out of the room and be by the

14 door. I could hear the moans, and then it was my turn as third. He made

15 me sit down in a chair against the wall. To the left was Robija, that is

16 that man named Robija, and the other man was on the other side. And then

17 he identified himself as Colonel Andabak, Tuta's deputy. He asked

18 insignificant things, insignificant to me, that is. Where was the safe

19 that the army had? Where was the money that was kept in the basement?

20 And I was in no position to know any of this. I did not know whether

21 there was any safe or any money.

22 After each question was accompanied by a blow, by either of the

23 two men who were standing next to me. They were either kicks or punches.

24 That went on for about ten minutes, and then we were led out and taken to

25 another room where we were joined with the others. Four or five days

Page 4274

1 later, two men came, one identified himself as commander -- actually, as a

2 SIS operative, and the other one as a VOS operative, V-O-S. This took

3 place about ten days after one of those who were with us in the prison was

4 released. He was released and taken to Makarska and released to his

5 father, as we were told by Colonel Zeljko Bosnjak, because it was he

6 himself who took him there.

7 They came again for the three of us, because the three of us were

8 still together, and we were taken out one by one to another room. They

9 threatened us with a pistol. They put a pistol in our mouth. They hit

10 us, and asked how much money Zeljko Bosnjak got. We had no idea this man

11 would be released or Zeljko Bosnjak would get any money for it. We just

12 did not have any knowledge of that. After that, for two days, we received

13 no food. We stopped being taken to work. We remained locked up in the

14 room, and occasionally we would be allowed to go to the toilet. And that

15 went on for 10 to 15 days. And then we went to some factory to dig a

16 canal and to place some cable.

17 Q. Thank you. And did you know Andabak before?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Could you describe his appearances now?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Please.

22 A. He was wearing a camouflage uniform, not very tall, a round face

23 with spectacles, and hair that wasn't very long, not cut military style

24 but not very long either. If I saw a picture of him, I would recognise

25 him immediately.

Page 4275

1 Q. Witness, in your testimony today, you have mentioned the name of a

2 person whose name was Stela. Did you know that person before?

3 A. Yes, from Balinovac, from Balinovac, which is a neighbourhood in

4 Mostar where I played soccer. And so I've known Stela for over 25 years.

5 But we never really socialised.

6 Q. Did you see him during the war? I mean apart from those two

7 occasions when you saw him at Stela's headquarters?

8 A. Him personally? No. Just in passing in Mostar, in a car, because

9 he had very characteristic-looking car. The colour of his car could be

10 described as pink panther. It was an American-built car, a Chevrolet, a

11 convertible.

12 Q. Did you know which position he occupied during the war? I mean

13 the war in 1993, sorry.

14 A. According to the -- to his fighters, he was a commander of the ATG

15 group, which was part of the Convicts Battalion.

16 Q. How do you know that, that his unit was a part of the Convicts

17 Battalion?

18 A. On the 17th or 19th of September, we were released from the camp

19 to two men with cars, who took us to Mostar. We arrived in Mostar at the

20 Rondo, the four of us, and there we were in front and behind the building

21 where Radio Mostar was. There is a yard there and we were -- we were

22 sitting there, and the police asked us where did we come from? And the

23 young man who guarded us said that he was a member of the Convicts

24 Battalion in Mostar.

25 Q. But did he tell you to which unit he belonged to? What was the

Page 4276

1 name of the unit he was enlisted in?

2 A. That unit was part of the Convicts Battalion, because he showed

3 the policemen an identity card, because the policeman did -- left us alone

4 after that, which to me meant that he was above the policeman.

5 MR. PORIOUVAEV: All right. Your Honour, I think that now we

6 should go into private session for some minutes because you remember the

7 witness did not give names of people who were beaten along with him in

8 tobacco station.

9 JUDGE LIU: We will go to the private session.

10 [Private session]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 4277












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13 English transcripts.













Page 4278

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [Open session]

9 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we are now in the open session.


11 Q. Yes, go ahead.

12 A. The whole night and the whole next day, we were carrying large

13 amounts of explosive, which had been transported to the front of the

14 restaurant nearby. And we carried it to a manhole near the Lenin park,

15 the Lenin promenade. And we carried these explosives through the manhole

16 to a place near the court building on the other side road, a section held

17 by the BH army. It was 1600 kilos of explosive that we carried over. And

18 since the four of us couldn't manage it on our own, another six prisoners

19 were brought, and they worked in Santic Street that night to get it

20 carried over by the next day. I know it's exactly 1600 kilos because I

21 went to Rudnik together with one of the soldiers to bring the tools

22 necessary for opening the manhole because the manhole had been closed.

23 And then we stopped by a place where a man was loading explosives

24 on to a truck. He said there would be 2400 kilos. And since our guard,

25 Jure Djidic was not accompanying us, he told me to get it myself. And

Page 4279

1 when we had done it, the man said, "Tell the driver it's only 1600, not

2 more." That's how I know.

3 Q. Witness BB, do you know for which unit you were performing this

4 job?

5 A. The unit, the group which was located there and headed by a man

6 whom I only know by his nickname, Tange, because he was the owner of the

7 Tange Lange Cafe. That's how he got his nickname. There was also a man

8 named Vili, son of Suljo, who was also well known in Zagreb. There was

9 also Jure Djidic, and there was a man who used to be the goalkeeper of the

10 Locomotiva team. And they all belonged to what they called an independent

11 sabotage group attached to the Convicts Battalion. That's what they

12 said. That's what Tange personally told us that morning while we were

13 drying ourselves because we were wet from working in the sewage manhole.

14 Q. Did they tell the name of the unit they belonged to?

15 A. This man Willy said that they were a sabotage group, but he didn't

16 say more than that. It was Tange who said they were attached to the

17 Convicts Battalion.

18 Q. Thank you.

19 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Now, I would like the usher to place

20 Exhibit Number 14.3 on the ELMO.

21 Q. Please, Witness, could you indicate in this picture the place you

22 were performing your job with explosives.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Can you mark it, please -- yes, first the pointer.

25 A. Here on this picture, you can't see the manhole through which we

Page 4280

1 carried the explosive because it's in the street which goes down below the

2 edge of the picture. From this corner here, it's about 7 to 8 metres in

3 the middle of the road. We carried it through the sewage which goes along

4 here.

5 Q. Now, you may take a marker and just indicate the route you were

6 carrying explosives to. To begin with, the building just to the left

7 side, do you know the name of the building?

8 A. Yes. This is Aleksa Santic High School. This is the third

9 primary school. They switched places at one point, so this used to be the

10 high school and this used to be the primary school.

11 Q. Now, you can put number 1 on this building.

12 A. [Marks]

13 Q. But I don't see the picture.

14 A. This is Aleksa Santic school.

15 Q. Put it on the ELMO because we cannot follow you.

16 A. This is Aleksa Santic High School, and this is the third primary

17 school.

18 Q. Put number 2 on the primary school.

19 A. [Marks]

20 Q. Okay. Go ahead.

21 A. Our route started here at the manhole, and it crossed this way

22 right here. From this point, we turned in the direction of this building,

23 and then we went here below. This here was the first manhole where we

24 left explosives --

25 Q. Okay. [Previous translation continues]...

Page 4281

1 A. Near the building of the court.

2 Q. All right.

3 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Now I would like the usher to put Exhibit

4 Number 39.1 on the ELMO.

5 Q. Witness BB, could you identify someone -- anyone on this picture?

6 A. Yes, Colonel Ivan Andabak.

7 Q. Could you show this person with the pointer?

8 A. [Indicates]

9 Q. Okay. Put a number 1, because there are two persons here in the

10 photo.

11 A. [Marks]

12 Q. Oh, my God. You have overdone it. Okay. That's fine.

13 MR. PORIOUVAEV: So Witness BB identified a person marked with

14 number 1 as Ivan Andabak.

15 Q. Thank you very much. And I've got a couple more questions. While

16 talking about Ljubuski, Witness, you said that you had been beaten by

17 Ernest Takac and Pehar, whose nickname was Dolma. Do you know to which

18 unit they belonged? Who was their commander?

19 A. They belonged to the same group as Romeo Blazevic, who belonged to

20 Stela.

21 Q. How do you know that?

22 A. From their own words, the Convicts Battalion was established in

23 Mostar to defend Mostar, and that's where this ATG, anti-terrorist group,

24 came in, and also this sabotage group.

25 Q. But what was -- what is the link between the sabotage group and

Page 4282












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Page 4283

1 Stela?

2 A. The ATG was not established during the war between Croats and

3 Muslims. It was established before. Juka had his own unit, and in the

4 same way, this side had its own. And rumour had it, in cafes and places,

5 that the commander was Stela. Many boasted that they were members of that

6 group, just as Takac boasted of it, the same as Dolma, Romeo. They

7 bragged themselves that they were fighting men.

8 Q. Thank you. When were you released from the detention facilities?

9 A. Late in October, 1993.

10 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Thank you very much, witness.

11 Your Honour, my examination-in-chief is over.

12 JUDGE LIU: Well, you did a very good job, that you finished with

13 this witness with your direct examination within the time frame you told

14 us.

15 Any cross-examination? Yes, Mr. Krsnik.

16 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you, Your Honours. If you

17 would be just kind enough to have the ELMO lowered to begin with so I can

18 see the witness.

19 Cross-examined by Mr. Krsnik:

20 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness. Let me introduce myself.

21 I am Defence counsel for the accused Mr. Naletilic, and I will be putting

22 to you some questions.

23 A. Go ahead.

24 Q. Thank you. Tell me, please, when did you transfer to the BH army?

25 A. I wasn't in the BH army for even a day. I was in the 4th

Page 4284

1 Battalion, and I do have my soldier's ID, and it's also in the computer.

2 You can check. I was in the group for maintenance.

3 Q. Right. But please answer just briefly my questions. You've told

4 me that you were not there, and that's it. You didn't have any weapons?

5 A. No.

6 Q. You spent your nights in Vranica as a simple civilian?

7 A. Yes, because I took over the apartment of a Serb person.

8 Q. You took it over yourself or somebody gave it to you?

9 A. No. I took it over myself because the apartment where I used to

10 live was destroyed by shells and I had nowhere to sleep. Everybody took

11 over other people's apartments.

12 Q. Did you give any oath, for instance, in the HVO?

13 A. No, because I was mobilised during the general mobilisation to the

14 northern camp. I was taken to the northern camp and to the Tihomir Misic

15 camp. That's where the mobilisation was carried out.

16 Q. Tell me, please, were there any -- was there any fighting before

17 the 9th in Mostar?

18 A. You mean before the 9th of May? Yes, there was fighting on the

19 16th and 17th of April, 1993, around the Mostar Hotel and around the high

20 school. There were police forces and the army there.

21 Q. Do you know of any agreements made between the HVO and the BH army

22 as to who would be stationed where and who would draw lines, before the

23 9th of May?

24 A. One evening, I was in my apartment, because I was overlooking that

25 place, as I said before. I heard noise down below. I went to the window,

Page 4285

1 and I saw Arif Pasalic, nicknamed Hujko -- Arif Pasalic, sorry, and Hujko

2 having an argument, and Pasalic told Hujko that they had just signed an

3 agreement and that they should move their police, I don't know where. I

4 heard it with my own ears because I was six or seven metres above them.

5 It was night-time and it was quiet all around.

6 Q. Will you tell this Court who is Arif Pasalic and who is Hujko, on

7 the other hand?

8 A. Arif Pasalic is the corps commander of the BH army, and Hujko is

9 the commander of the BH army brigade.

10 Q. Is that the well-known 1st Mostar Brigade commanded by Hujdur?

11 A. I don't know what number that brigade was. I just know that he

12 was the commander of one of those brigades.

13 Q. Was that argument because -- was that argument over one of them

14 wanting to comply with the agreement and the other not wanting to, or was

15 it about something else?

16 A. According to the chain of command that I was taught in school,

17 corps commander is superior to the brigade commander. And the brigade

18 commander, as far as I could see, was not present in that meeting, and

19 this other one was informing him. That's how I understood that scene.

20 Q. I seem to have heard you saying, and that's what came -- what's in

21 the transcript. You said that they had an argument. An argument is not

22 the passing of information. An argument is a quarrel.

23 A. Yes. It was an argument that didn't awaken the whole highrise,

24 but it did wake me up and perhaps another person on the floor above. And

25 one man was saying to the other that he should submit to him, that he

Page 4286

1 should comply.

2 Q. So if I understood you correctly, and please confirm or otherwise,

3 there was a quarrel between Mr. Pasalic and Mr. Hujko because one of them

4 didn't want to submit to the other.

5 A. No, it wasn't a quarrel. It was an argument. I said it was an

6 argument. It is a much milder expression and a much milder type of talk

7 than a quarrel.

8 Q. Tell me, sir, do you know whether Mr. -- I'll speak more slowly

9 now for the transcript. Did Mr. Mithad Hujdur -- no, it's not right.

10 M-i-t-h-a-d H-u-j-d-u-r.

11 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Poriouvaev.

12 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Your Honour, I would like to know what my learned

13 colleague is leading to, because I don't think it is relevant to the case

14 or the charges against his client.

15 JUDGE LIU: I also would like to know this question.

16 Mr. Krsnik, could you give us an explanation.

17 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if you would bear with

18 me for another minute, you will learn the answer. I don't want to explain

19 in front of the witness why I'm putting a certain question. That's one.

20 And I would also be very grateful, Your Honour, because we have also

21 general background in this indictment, and this question is very relevant,

22 especially what the witness was talking about right now. And when you

23 hear the next question, you will understand the meaning of the previous

24 one.

25 Q. Do you remember giving any statements to the representatives of

Page 4287












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13 English transcripts.













Page 4288

1 this Court except for testifying today?

2 A. I'm sorry, I don't understand.

3 Q. Did you give any statements to the investigators of this Tribunal?

4 A. Yes, a complete report, like this.

5 Q. So you gave them a statement?

6 A. Naturally, I have given a statement to the investigators.

7 Q. Do you remember when and to whom?

8 A. I don't remember. It was about two years ago, I believe. And I

9 especially don't remember to whom.

10 Q. During that questioning, were you telling the truth?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And you said all you knew, and you answered their questions?

13 A. Yes, and I will say the same to you now.

14 Q. Just a minute, just a minute. In that statement, you stated that

15 on the 7th and the 8th of April, you were in the BH army. And on the

16 evening of the 8th of April, you were defending the high school and the

17 Mostar Hotel. However, you had to turn them over to the Croatian army as

18 a result of the agreement reached between Pero Zelenika, on the one hand,

19 and General Pasalic on the other hand.

20 Today, you said you had never been in the BH army. That's the

21 reason for my question.

22 A. I wasn't. I wasn't in the army even then. You should know that

23 at that time, some better-known fighters from the army made a group to

24 defend this area around the park, so it was not joining the army. It was

25 just fighters on their own initiative, just as some people from the HVO.

Page 4289

1 And I joined that group that evening because it was an attempt to avoid

2 the conflict and to prevent the conflict between the army and the HVO. I

3 was there that evening, but I wasn't a member of the army.

4 Q. Witness, you said in your statement, "When the HVO attack started,

5 I joined the BH army." Do you remember saying that?

6 A. Counsel --

7 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, to observe all our

8 rules, I can present the witness with this document. My colleagues also

9 have this statement in both versions.

10 May I ask the usher to give the witness this statement in B/C/S.

11 A. There's no need to. I know it all.

12 Q. To refresh your memory.

13 A. I know what I said.

14 Q. Then you went on to say, "I'm a Bosniak Muslim. I wanted to

15 defend my city. We were deployed by Hujka -- that is, we were deployed by

16 Hujka, who is the commander of the Mostar Brigade of BH army. On 7 April,

17 1993, during the night, I was in the big park in front of the Mostar Hotel

18 and the grammar school. The distance between these two buildings is about

19 200 metres. I was together with another 80 soldiers of the BH army. We

20 wanted to defend the two aforementioned buildings. The BH army was

21 informed about the attack two or three days in advance. I know this. I

22 cannot tell you who passed on that information."

23 Were you with the BH army or not?

24 A. No, I was not. I was not.

25 Q. So what is stated there -- here is not true?

Page 4290

1 A. No. This is mistranslated. I am a Bosniak from -- I'm a citizen

2 of Mostar. I did not say I was a Bosniak Muslim.

3 Q. Excuse me, Bosniak Muslim or Bosniak Mostar man, I respect

4 whatever you want to say, the way -- however you feel yourself to be, but

5 the rest of it, did you say the rest of that?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. So let me ask you again. So were you a member of the BH army?

8 A. No. I was never a member of the ABiH, but as a born Mostar man,

9 like others who were not members of ABiH, who had come there, we all knew

10 about the attack. We wanted to prevent it. Other people came from

11 outside, to that park, on the HVO side. There were no local Mostar men in

12 that park that night.

13 Q. Will you look at the paragraph before? "In the evening of 8

14 April, 1993, we defended the grammar school and the Mostar Hotel." So

15 that was the question which I asked you previously. So now you have it in

16 front of you. And I continue: "But we had to give them to the Croatian

17 side because of the agreement between General Pasalic, as representative

18 of the Muslim side, and Pero Zelenika, as an HVO representative." In the

19 evening of 8 April, did you sleep peacefully at home or were you defending

20 these sites?

21 A. The attack was between 8.00 and 10.00 in the evening, and then we

22 all went home because the soldiers who did not know this area left the

23 park and [redacted]

24 [redacted], at least those of us who came out to

25 help that night in order to avoid the conflict. It was then that I heard

Page 4291

1 -- and this was midnight by this time, when this took place, between

2 Pasalic and Pero.

3 Q. You now said that you were there defending the grammar school and

4 the Mostar Hotel, and then in the next paragraph, you describe -- this

5 would be -- let's go on to the next paragraph. "The attack lasted for two

6 hours. The HVO soldiers did not expect BH army soldiers in the park after

7 their attack and subsequent escape from the park. We left and I went

8 home." My question is: Were you, as a member of the ABiH, in the park

9 when this attack took place, then you chased the HVO soldiers, as you

10 said, and then you went home to sleep? Is that what it was?

11 A. Not as a member of the army. As many men from Mostar, who did not

12 belong to any army, we came there to defend these places as members of --

13 Q. We've heard that.

14 A. But I was not a member of the army.

15 Q. When I asked you today earlier, you said that you did not have any

16 weapons. How did you defend that park?

17 A. That night?

18 Q. Yes.

19 A. I said in the 4th Battalion, I never -- I was never issued any

20 type of weapons before or later. I found my own uniform --

21 Q. That was not my question and that was not your answer. My

22 question was, were you a member of ABiH; you said no. And I asked you

23 whether you had any weapons; and you said no. I asked you, did you sleep

24 in that apartment as a civilian; and you said yes. That was today. And

25 now, I ask you today, did you have any weapon that night?

Page 4292












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13 English transcripts.













Page 4293

1 A. That night, yes. That was the only night I had, and I never

2 denied that. I also had a personal pistol.

3 Q. Can you tell us what type of weapon did you have that night?

4 A. You mean that night?

5 Q. Yes.

6 A. A Kalashnikov.

7 Q. Is that the AK-47?

8 A. I don't know. I know it's called Kalashnikov.

9 Q. Is that a machine-gun?

10 A. No, that was a rifle.

11 Q. A submachine-gun?

12 A. No. It was a rifle, an automatic rifle. A Kalashnikov is an

13 automatic rifle.

14 Q. Kalashnikov is an automatic rifle?

15 A. Yes. It is not a submachine-gun. There is a big difference in

16 calibre. I know that much.

17 Q. So you had this Kalashnikov in your apartment?

18 A. That night, no, no, I did not have it in my apartment. I returned

19 it that night.

20 Q. To whom did you return it?

21 A. You want the name or?

22 Q. Tell us to whom did you return it.

23 A. I asked you, do you want me -- the name or the party?

24 Q. Both the name and the party.

25 A. The name would not mean anything to you. His name was Mirso. And

Page 4294

1 I gave him the rifle.

2 Q. And the party is the ABiH, I assume?

3 A. Yes, yes. He was with the ABiH.

4 Q. And why did you give him the rifle? It was your rifle?

5 A. No, it was not my rifle. Because I had taken the rifle from him.

6 Q. And did you go home in your uniform or in civilian clothes? Did

7 you have a uniform on?

8 A. Yes, I did, yes. I went home in the uniform.

9 Q. Was that the ABiH uniform or the HVO?

10 A. No. This was a uniform with a Croatian insignia.

11 Q. Very well. So then you heard this argument that night -- that was

12 the night on the night of the 8th, is that --

13 A. No. That is a wrong date.

14 Q. Where did you make a mistake in date? In this statement?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. So what date was that?

17 A. The night between the 16th and the 17th.

18 Q. Was that April 1993?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And then on the 9th, or in the night between the 8th and the 9th,

21 this is when it started, when you heard shots?

22 A. Ten to 5.00 on the 9th of May, 1993. The first shell that was

23 fired from a hand-held rocket launcher was fired into the living room of

24 the apartment where I slept.

25 Q. Is that also a mistake? You said the balcony.

Page 4295

1 A. Well, I can show it to you. It was the wall separating the

2 balcony from the living room.

3 Q. Witness, my question was, did the shell hit the balcony or the

4 living room?

5 A. The wall separating the balcony and the living room.

6 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Can I ask the usher's assistance to

7 give us back the photograph - I don't know exactly the number - so you can

8 show us exactly where the shell impacted.

9 MR. PORIOUVAEV: To make things easier, 16.4.

10 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11 JUDGE LIU: I'm not sure whether it's proper to put this

12 photograph on the ELMO because that will identify, in my view, where the

13 witness lives.

14 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] We can go into the private session,

15 but it cannot be -- no, no, no, you're right. We should go to the private

16 session. You're absolutely right.

17 JUDGE LIU: We'll go to the private session.

18 [Private session]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 4296













13 Page 4296 redacted private session.













Page 4297












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13 English transcripts.













Page 4298













13 Page 4298 redacted private session.













Page 4299

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [Open session]

8 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

9 Q. The Juka, is that the name of a man called Juka Prazina?

10 A. Yes, that is a man named Juka Prazina.

11 Q. Was he a Bosniak Muslim?

12 A. He probably is.

13 Q. Was that the man who came from Sarajevo as a hero?

14 A. I wouldn't be able to tell you that.

15 Q. How did you know, who told you, that Juka was with the Convicts

16 Battalion? Was this something that you heard in the bar?

17 A. You did not hear that from me, that Juka was in the Convicts

18 Battalion. I did not say that.

19 Q. Excuse me, that was my understanding. When you said that Juka

20 took you from the School of Economics?

21 A. Yes, we saw Zeljko Bosnjak at the School of Economics, in the yard

22 there, a colonel of the Convicts Battalion.

23 Q. Very well. We will get to that right away, to Zeljko Bosnjak, but

24 Juka had nothing to do with the Convicts Battalion?

25 A. I don't know anything about that, but they were together that day.

Page 4300

1 Q. Now, how did you know that Zeljko Bosnjak was with the Convicts

2 Battalion, and that on top of that, he had the rank of colonel, on that

3 8th of May, 1993?

4 A. If you had really listened to what I was saying, you would

5 remember that I said that later on, I learned that he was a colonel in

6 rank.

7 Q. I was asking you about the 8th of May.

8 A. I don't know about the 8th of May. I left the school of economics

9 on the 10th of May.

10 Q. And you did not know who that man was?

11 A. I knew that he was Zeljko Bosnjak.

12 Q. And that's how you knew?

13 A. I did not know his rank. I knew that he was with the Convicts

14 Battalion.

15 Q. And later on, you heard from people?

16 A. No. He personally arrived. He personally came to the swimming

17 pool.

18 Q. Very well. We'll get there. We'll get there.

19 A. No. All I want to say, that I learned about it a couple of days

20 later, after the 10th.

21 Q. Now, tell me, please, who did Misic shoot at? We are now in front

22 of the ministry, as you said, and you came -- and Misic shot at somebody.

23 Who was it that he shot at?

24 A. Let me tell you now.

25 Q. Excuse me, no, no, no, no. Don't read.

Page 4301

1 A. I would like not to mention the name. It's not written there.

2 Can I say it?

3 Q. Of course.

4 A. Because he's an army soldier.

5 JUDGE LIU: Should we go to private session?

6 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Yes, please. It's just for this one

7 question.

8 JUDGE LIU: We will go to the private session.

9 [Private session]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 4302












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13 English transcripts.













Page 4303

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [Open session]

9 A. The faculty is down near the Bijeli Brijeg stadium. The ministry

10 is about 700 or 800 metres before that, across from the old Velez stadium,

11 in the direction of Balinovac or the Bakamok [phoen] Street, whichever way

12 you like.

13 Q. And you were taken to Balinovac? Is that what you just said?

14 A. No. We were taken down on to Zujanica Street, and it passes the

15 Velez stadium, which now has all these coffee bars. It intersects the

16 street that goes from the Rondo to the Velez stadium. And then there was

17 the SIS building, a small house, and then past there, to the right, in a

18 -- there is an older building. It used to be the Zagreb Bank before and

19 during the war was a ministry. I don't know what ministries were in

20 there. I wouldn't be able to tell you.

21 Q. And can you tell me in relation to that building what -- where was

22 the Tobacco Institute or something like that that -- was there something

23 called like that?

24 A. The Tobacco Institute is about four kilometres away from that, on

25 the opposite side.

Page 4304

1 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you. I see that it is 1.00,

2 Your Honours. I will not be long after the break. I will go on with my

3 cross-examination, but I will not take very long.

4 JUDGE LIU: We will resume at 2.30 this afternoon.

5 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.00 p.m.





















Page 4305

1 --- On resuming at 2.34 p.m.

2 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Krsnik.

3 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honours. I just

4 need to find the map of Mostar. I believe it's Exhibit 11.8. It's

5 11.18.

6 Q. Witness, would you please take the pointer and show us on this map

7 this ministry in the former Zagrebica Bank, and then the location of the

8 Tobacco Institute. Please use the pointer.

9 A. [Indicates]

10 Q. This is what?

11 A. This is the cemetery -- old Zagreb bank.

12 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters cannot hear the witness. He is

13 too far from the microphone.

14 JUDGE LIU: I think, Witness, you have to turn on the other mic.

15 Thank you.

16 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Kindly show us the Tobacco Institute in Mostar.

18 A. [Indicates]

19 Q. Just for the record, will you please describe the location?

20 A. Below the Hasan Brkic bridge on the left-hand side. The streets

21 towards Buna and Blagaj.

22 Q. And now, please, show us the mechanical engineering school.

23 A. The mechanical engineering school. The university buildings are

24 here. That's the old Dzemal Bijedic University.

25 Q. And the location?

Page 4306

1 A. Before the Velez stadium. If you are coming from the direction of

2 Strelcevina, if you are going from Rondo, it's on the right-hand side. If

3 you are coming from Vranica, it's on the left-hand side.

4 Q. And you were all taken by Juka's soldiers to the old stadium.

5 Were you personally taken there?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. So it's the site below the old Partizan bridge?

8 A. Cemetery.

9 Q. Right, cemetery. Thank you, Witness.

10 Now, tell me, you were arrested and taken away by Juka's

11 soldiers. Is that right?

12 A. Juka's and Tuta's soldiers, because both followed us. Some went

13 in front and some behind.

14 Q. How do you know they were Tuta's?

15 A. Because Djeko Bosnjak is Tuta's man.

16 Q. But at that time you didn't know that?

17 A. I didn't know he was a colonel. I learned two days later at the

18 swimming pool that he was a colonel.

19 Q. Right. Now, tell me, when you were arrived outside that building

20 of the ministry, you said Misic, Tuta, and Primorac were already there?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Could you give me the names of some people who saw Misic shoot?

23 A. When they come here, you'll have the opportunity to ask them.

24 Q. You don't remember a single name of a person who eye-witnessed

25 this?

Page 4307












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13 English transcripts.













Page 4308

1 A. People heard it. I don't know how much they could see because

2 they were in two columns. The moment when he cursed our mothers and said

3 that we had killed his son, that's the moment when he took out his gun and

4 fired.

5 Q. You have said this already. I was asking you to tell me some

6 names of people who saw it.

7 A. I can only give you the names of people who were present there.

8 Q. That's the only thing I'm asking for.

9 A. I said that those were people who were there, and I've already

10 listed them today. I can repeat those names.

11 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, perhaps we should go

12 into private session because I don't see why anyone who was in the BH army

13 would deserve our going into private session every time.

14 JUDGE LIU: Well, we'll go to the private session for a few

15 minutes.

16 [Private session]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 4309

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [Open session]

11 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

12 Q. And nobody else fired except this gentleman?

13 A. No one else.

14 Q. And you said [redacted] was hit?

15 A. Yes. He was hit by a Motorola by Tuta.

16 Q. And no one else?

17 A. I'm mentioning names again, sir.

18 Q. All right. Tell me, then, Juka came?

19 A. No. Juka was already there.

20 Q. Just a minute. Did Juka try to prevent this? Did he scream at

21 Misic?

22 A. Juka stood in front of Misic and Mr. Tuta, and said that he had

23 promised us outside the school of economics, and this was true, that we

24 would not be killed, that we would not be hurt in any way. And then Tuta

25 said, "Take these people to Siroki Brijeg and execute them."

Page 4310

1 Q. And Juka's men then took you to Siroki Brijeg?

2 A. Yes, on a bus. Juka's men were with us but without Juka.

3 Q. And as you arrive outside the police station in Siroki Brijeg; is

4 that right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Were you then turned over to the police?

7 A. Only after 30 or 40 minutes. The policemen were standing outside

8 and they eventually turned us over to them.

9 Q. And the civilian police, then, took you over?

10 A. Yes, 40 minutes later.

11 Q. And from then on, you were taken care of by the police. You were

12 accommodated in those cells, as you said, you were fed, and so on and so

13 forth. Is that correct?

14 A. The 33 of us were placed in two cells --

15 Q. We heard about that already. I'm only asking you --

16 A. And I'm replying.

17 Q. I was asking you, the police took care of you, put you in cells,

18 fed you, et cetera?

19 A. If you believe a 200 gram food -- tinned food enough for six

20 persons --

21 Q. That was not the question. I was asking you who took you over,

22 who took care of you. Please don't be offended.

23 Tell me, you said today when you went to the swimming pool, you

24 were guarded by home guards. Who were those home guards?

25 A. Not the swimming pool. At the swimming pool, we were guarded by

Page 4311

1 drivers who drove the trucks carrying the wood that we had chopped and

2 loaded. There were ten of them, about ten of them. And they called

3 themselves "home guards" when we were working on the canal, when we were

4 digging the canal. It was a later occasion when we were guarded by

5 self-styled home guards.

6 Q. So if I understood you correctly, you were guarded by drivers.

7 A. At the swimming pool, yes. But not at the canal.

8 Q. And who guarded you at the canal?

9 A. Over seven days at the canal, we were guarded by a special unit of

10 civilian police. Several days later, maybe 7, maybe it's 11 days, we were

11 guarded by civilian policemen. And later yet, we were guarded again by

12 the guards who were guarding us at the Tobacco Institute. And after them

13 came civilians who didn't go to the front but who put on uniforms and

14 called themselves "home guards." And they guarded us, they continued

15 guarding us until the end.

16 Q. Tell me, were they armed? I mean the drivers.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Excuse me. I didn't hear your answer. Were the drivers armed?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Tell me, this water canal, this water supply canal that you were

21 digging, was it for a village on a hill?

22 A. That canal we were digging, we dug it up to the road by which we

23 had come. And from that point on, a bulldozer could continue. The guards

24 told us that it was for Tuta's house.

25 Q. All right.

Page 4312












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Page 4313












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Page 4314

1 A. Between the canal and Tuta's house, there were perhaps only two

2 more houses.

3 Q. Tell us kindly, that swimming pool where you worked, was it the

4 town pool?

5 A. Fifteen years ago maybe, probably. But nowadays, it was Jablanica

6 and those drivers who told us where the restaurant would be, where the

7 tennis grounds would be, the tennis courts, and it was in that direction

8 that we cleared the woods.

9 Q. And it was supposed to be taken over by Jablanica, you said today?

10 A. Yes, together with Tuta.

11 Q. Just one more question about this swimming pool. Did you also get

12 food only once a day at the swimming pool as well?

13 A. Yes, for lunch.

14 Q. How about cigarettes?

15 A. No, unless some of the drivers gave us one. We got on one

16 occasion about ten T-shirts because ours were very soiled. They brought

17 them in a case.

18 Q. So let me get this straight. At least one driver had to be

19 present at the swimming pool at all times because they were coming and

20 going?

21 A. They were at the swimming pool all the time, at least six or

22 seven, because they were afraid that we would run.

23 Q. Excuse me, if you could follow me, I would like to turn back to

24 that canal when you were carrying explosives.

25 A. You mean sewage?

Page 4315

1 Q. Yes, sewage. In the sewage tunnels, were guards also with you?

2 A. No.

3 Q. And you crossed over to the other side where the BH army was.

4 Couldn't you escape?

5 A. Yes, we could, but out of the 13 of us, four were brought in. The

6 brother of one man had already been killed and they told us that if one of

7 them -- one of us runs, this man's brother would be killed. And we

8 couldn't run, in other words, because that man's brother would die.

9 Q. Tell me, did this explosive go off?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Let us go back to Siroki now. How tall is the man whom you refer

12 to as Colonel Andabak? Is he like me or like you?

13 A. No, he's taller.

14 Q. Is he like me?

15 A. Taller still, not much taller, though.

16 Q. Not much. I'm 170. Is he 175 perhaps?

17 A. No, more. He is a very big man, broad-shouldered.

18 Q. Tell me, did you ever see him on television before that?

19 A. No.

20 Q. In October, you said you were released. Did somebody release you

21 privately of their own accord? Did they just say, "You're free to go"?

22 And who was it, if so?

23 A. Mate Boban had intervened.

24 Q. You hadn't mentioned that in your statement or in your testimony

25 before. You said you were released by Tuta's deputy in October.

Page 4316

1 A. Yes, but it was after the intervention of Mate Boban that Andabak

2 personally released me, from his office on the ground floor.

3 Q. Could you tell me, what is the connection between these Poskok men

4 and the Convicts Battalion?

5 A. The Poskok men were in the same prefab house that we were placed

6 in. I said -- I didn't say anything about them being connected with the

7 Convicts Battalion. I only said there existed the Poskok Battalion.

8 Q. Apart from them, was there anyone else at the tobacco station?

9 Were there any other soldiers who were stationed there, spent the nights

10 there?

11 A. We would finish work about 5.00, 5.30, depending on the day --

12 Q. Sorry for interrupting you, Witness, but if you would be so kind

13 as to follow my question. You give me very extensive answers all the

14 time. I'm supposed to lead you by my question to make this more concise

15 and articulate, but I don't seem to be having much success. I put to you

16 a very simple and clear question. Apart from these Poskok men, were there

17 any other troops stationed at this Tobacco Institute that you know of?

18 A. Not even the Poskok Battalion spent the nights there. The

19 soldiers didn't sleep there. They only came by day. Nobody slept there

20 except for us prisoners. In another part of the Tobacco Institute, I

21 can't say, because we weren't allowed to walk around the perimeter, except

22 a little in front of our building, we were allowed sometimes to stay

23 outside for 10 or 15 minutes.

24 Q. All right. About these people whom you enumerated, Cikota, Romeo

25 Blazevic, Darko Dodig, and some others, were they from Siroko or did they

Page 4317

1 come from Mostar?

2 A. Cikota came from Siroko. I know that because I went to work on

3 his house for about a month with interruptions. Romeo Blazevic came from

4 Mostar. Darko Dodig resides in Mostar. Where he is from originally, I

5 don't know. And who else did you ask about?

6 Q. I don't know. Those are the names that you mentioned in your

7 answers to my learned friend. I believe there was one Vinko.

8 A. Yes, you mean the waiter. He came from Mostar.

9 Q. Do you remember that in your statement given to the investigators

10 of this Tribunal, you said that all of them were from Mostar and that they

11 came from Mostar? Do you remember that?

12 A. Yes, I do, except for Ivan Cikota. Yes. He came from Mostar

13 too. Dolma came from Mostar.

14 Q. Just a moment, please, if you can. In your statement, you only

15 mentioned the persons whose names I just read to you and you said that

16 they were from Mostar, and now that you mentioned the others that you

17 mentioned, you only saw them in Ljubuski; is that correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Isn't there a difference there? Don't you notice that?

20 A. Yes. They also came from Mostar to Ljubuski. All the persons I

21 mentioned who as having come in to beat people, all came from Mostar,

22 instead of Cikota and the others who came late at night.

23 Q. Now, tell me, the alleged questioning from -- on the part of the

24 SIS and person you called Andabak, was it not all about why a certain

25 person was released that allegedly this Bosnjak person released him and

Page 4318

1 how much money was given for that? Wasn't it all about that?

2 A. Andabak's questioning was before the SIS and VOS questioning and

3 it was the questioning about some safe and some money, allegedly in a

4 basement in Vranica.

5 Q. Very well, stop there now for a moment. Do you know that you

6 never mentioned that until now?

7 A. I did not mention Andabak?

8 Q. No, never by full name. And you never mentioned that Andabak

9 questioned you about a safe. You nowhere mentioned that at any time.

10 I'll give you a statement so you can look at it.

11 A. No. I remember. Because I remember I said that on the 78th day,

12 he questioned us. I think that that is record -- that was recorded. I

13 did not mention details in my statement.

14 Q. Right. Now, can you tell me, what is the truth here? Did Andabak

15 question you or not?

16 A. On the 78th day of my arrival on the 10th of May, I was questioned

17 by a colonel who identified himself as Colonel Andabak in a room -- in

18 their office where the guards were guarding us. And those were the guards

19 who were with us at the Tobacco Institute who were there in Siroki Brijeg.

20 Q. Very well. No need to repeat it. You said all that already.

21 So far, you have been telling us that you were guarded by the

22 members of the Convicts Battalion. And a few minutes ago, you told me

23 that you were never guarded by the members of the Convicts Battalion,

24 either at the swimming pool or the canal?

25 A. Our guards in the prison were members of the -- that is, in the

Page 4319

1 Tobacco Institute --

2 Q. Hold on. Are you referring to the Tobacco Institute as a camp?

3 A. Yes, because it was a camp. That was part of the Tobacco

4 Institute.

5 Q. Very well. Then you said that you slept in the part of the

6 building which was -- where the Siroki Brijeg battalion called Poskok was?

7 A. Poskok Battalion.

8 Q. And then I asked you what was their connection with the Convicts

9 Battalion, and you said none.

10 A. Half of the prefab building was the command post of the Poskok

11 Battalion, and the other part was where we were kept by these people.

12 Q. Okay. Tell me, if you remember, a name of any of these men.

13 A. I remember Soldo, Zelenika.

14 Q. Are these first names, last names?

15 A. They are both last names. One had nickname Djaga, and they showed

16 their IDs as belonging to Tuta's unit because they said they had no

17 problems when they were going to Mostar when they showed this ID.

18 Q. And do you know you never said until now that this was Tuta's

19 swimming pool, and you never mentioned the name Jablanica before. You

20 never mentioned it anywhere. It is today for the first time that you are

21 doing it.

22 A. I don't believe so.

23 Q. I can give you the statement, and you can perhaps show me where

24 you mention the name of Andabak or Jablanica, or where did you mention

25 that Tuta and he was going to share this half and half. In fact, I can

Page 4320

1 say this, that you said about Andabak: "On the 78th day of my detention,

2 I was beaten by Tuta's deputy, a soldier nicknamed Robija, and another

3 soldier in the compound of the command of the Convicts Battalion."

4 That's all. You never mentioned Jablanica anywhere, nor did you

5 ever mention that it was Tuta's swimming pool, the one in the city. I

6 will give you the statement to look at.

7 A. I gave the basic information. I did not go very wide because I

8 would not have finished in four months had I described what I experienced

9 day by day. But I did mention that on the 78th day of my detention, I was

10 questioned, and the man who questioned me identified himself as Colonel

11 Andabak. And when I left house, I also see him.

12 Q. Witness, I did not want to give you the statement to look, but you

13 did not mention Colonel Andabak in any of your statement.

14 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Prosecutor.

15 MR. PORIOUVAEV: I would object, Your Honour, because one thing,

16 if the investigator asked this question or not, and if he wrote it down in

17 the witness statement. He was asked today during the examination-in-chief

18 who was in charge, and that's why he gave the name of Jablanica. I don't

19 think that it's an appropriate question from the Defence.

20 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Prosecutor, when we evaluate all this evidence, of

21 course we will take the live evidence this witness gave today as the

22 first-hand evidence. As for the previous statement, we believe they have

23 only the reference value in this aspect. But the Defence counsel has the

24 right to ask any questions arising from the previous statement. That is a

25 matter for us to decide which evidence will be relied upon.

Page 4321

1 Yes, Mr. Krsnik.

2 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I have only

3 a few more questions for the witness.

4 Q. In your statement, you said expressly that the canal for Tuta's

5 home, and it was for his pool. How do you know that he had a pool in his

6 house?

7 A. Can you please give me the statement because that's not how it was

8 stated. A pool was mentioned, but it was the one over in the city.

9 Q. I'm going to underline it for you.

10 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] If I can ask the usher to please show

11 it to the witness.

12 JUDGE LIU: I doubt very much whether we should put that statement

13 on the ELMO.

14 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Yes, there is no secret, and there

15 are no names mentioned.

16 Q. My question is: Did you or did you not state this? You said that

17 you never did.

18 A. I did then.

19 Q. So you did state it after all?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. [redacted].

22 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Well, Mr. President, Your Honours,

23 maybe we should move into the private session, but this name was mentioned

24 in the open session a few days ago, but if you think that it should be

25 mentioned in private, we could. I don't see what the secrecy is about.

Page 4322












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Page 4323

1 JUDGE LIU: Because this name was mentioned in the private session

2 in the direct examination, so we should go to the private session.

3 [Private session]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 (redacted)

Page 4324

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [Open session]

12 JUDGE LIU: Cross-examination, Mr. Seric?

13 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] I have some questions, Your Honours.

14 Cross-examined by Mr. Seric:

15 Q. Mr. BB, I am Branko Seric, attorney from Zagreb, and I represent

16 Mr. Vinko Martinovic.

17 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have several

18 questions that I would like to ask in private session at the very

19 beginning so that we can then not need to go into the private session

20 again.

21 JUDGE LIU: We will go to the private session.

22 [Private session]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 (redacted)

Page 4325

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [Open session]

20 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Mr. BB, you said --

22 JUDGE LIU: Yes, please, sorry.

23 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. You said that you were beaten in the prison in Ljubuski and you

25 mentioned -- and my learned friend elicited names of Takac, Pehar,

Page 4326

1 Blazevic, Dodig, from you. When was this in relation to the day when you

2 were arrested?

3 A. The -- on the ninth or tenth day.

4 Q. Can we agree this would have been around the 19th, 18th of May,

5 1993?

6 A. Or the 19th.

7 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Very well. Can I please ask the usher

8 to show the witness Exhibit -- Defence Exhibit number D211 or P704 from

9 the Prosecution binder?

10 Q. Mr. BB, near the top, you have something that looks like a stamped

11 00795359. That's a page number that appears to be stamped. This is it.

12 Please look at it. Just keep going. You'll see the number 00795359.

13 Did you find it?

14 A. Yes, I did.

15 Q. Can you please read the part that is underlined.

16 A. Combat group 4 -- I can't see it.

17 Q. Very well. What is under Item 1? What is the name under --

18 A. Damjan Peric.

19 Q. And to the right?

20 A. Commander, Captain.

21 Q. How about 15?

22 A. Romeo Blazevic.

23 Q. Let's go back to number 3.

24 A. Djuro Djidic, soldier.

25 Q. Can you see the name of Vinko Martinovic written anywhere on the

Page 4327












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13 English transcripts.













Page 4328

1 list?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Very well. Can you now please turn to the page which has the last

4 three digits 386.

5 A. Yes, I found it.

6 Q. Can you see the name of the unit?

7 A. Vinko Skrobo.

8 Q. And who is under number 1?

9 A. Vinko Martinovic.

10 Q. And what is to the right?

11 A. Commander.

12 Q. Very well. Can you conclude from this that Martinovic was

13 commander to Blazevic, Peric, and Djidic?

14 THE INTERPRETER: Can the witness please repeat the answer.

15 A. But Ernest Takac was.

16 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. That was not my question. You can give the document back to the

18 usher.

19 Mr. BB, you mentioned some professor, teacher, Krilic. We don't

20 know this person. Did you know this person before the war?

21 A. No.

22 Q. When did you meet him for the first time? Do you remember?

23 A. In the camp.

24 Q. Where in the camp?

25 A. At the pool, because he lived in Dobrkovic.

Page 4329

1 Q. Was this at Ljubuski or Siroki Brijeg?

2 A. Siroki Brijeg.

3 Q. Witness BB, this is now at page 21, line 9 through 13. You stated

4 that you saw him for the first time in Ljubuski?

5 A. No, not at all, because he could not have been at Ljubuski with

6 another 56 prisoners throughout this period. Until his death, he was at

7 the school in Dobrkovic. That's where civilians from Mostar from

8 imprisoned, the ones that worked with us.

9 Q. I did not understand you.

10 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Seric, could you tell me from which document that

11 page 21, line 9 through 13 is.

12 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] That is in today's transcript, Your

13 Honour.

14 A. You made a mistake. That's a different professor.

15 Q. No, no, no. You said that was the name. You said Professor

16 Krilic.

17 A. No.

18 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] I don't know how we're going to

19 resolve the problem. In the transcript today, on page 21, lines 9 through

20 13, witness mentioned Professor Krilic in Ljubuski, and that's when they

21 talked for the first time.

22 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Prosecutor.

23 MR. PORIOUVAEV: It seems to me my learned colleague is mistaken.

24 He mentioned some professor from Mostar without giving his name. Krilic

25 is not mentioned.

Page 4330

1 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone to Her Honour.

2 JUDGE CLARK: My note says Professor Krilic. My note agrees with

3 Mr. Seric. My note here says somebody was killed with a karate kick in

4 the chest, and my cryptic note has "Professor Krilic" beside it, and then

5 the next question was, Who was in charge?

6 MR. PORIOUVAEV: It's a different camp. It's Dobrkovic.

7 JUDGE CLARK: Let me see what my note says. At that time, he was

8 talking about Mr. Tuta's house and digging the canal.

9 MR. PORIOUVAEV: It's different. It's different.

10 JUDGE CLARK: It's a different occasion --

11 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Yes, it's a different occasion. Ljubuski was

12 somewhere in May, and digging the canal was in July or August 1993.

13 JUDGE CLARK: It was in the early part of the evidence, yes.

14 JUDGE LIU: Well, the transcript says, A professor from Mostar,

15 who was brought just with his socks on his feet, and with his jaw

16 swollen. It does not mention any name.

17 JUDGE CLARK: That's not the occasion when he is describing a

18 professor who was killed.

19 A. That professor was mentioned in context with Stela, but I didn't

20 mention his name.


22 Q. [Interpretation] I'm sorry. I know that I heard this last name,

23 but I must be mistaken.

24 Tell me, did you know that professor from before?

25 A. Yes.

Page 4331

1 Q. Where did he live?

2 A. In Bosnica [phoen] Street.

3 Q. Which part of town was it?

4 A. It was Pijesak or -- it was Pijesak near the first primary

5 school.

6 Q. Did you talk to him then?

7 A. When he was brought there, yes.

8 Q. Did he tell you when he had been arrested, and did you tell

9 anything about the circumstances?

10 A. On the fourth day after our arrival on Siroki Brijeg, he was

11 brought with just his socks on, with his jaw swollen to such an extent

12 that the policemen brought him Aspirin for pain. He said, "I was brought

13 from my apartment," and we asked him who had hit him, he said, "Stela and

14 his men." Who he meant by "his men," I don't know.

15 Q. Mr. BB --

16 A. I didn't see Stela.

17 Q. With the passage of time, Witness, does your memory get better or

18 worse?

19 A. My memory is good, thank God.

20 Q. With the passage of time, though, does your concentration

21 deteriorate? Do some details become blurred or not?

22 A. I was -- I'm trying to forget, and some details I managed to edit

23 out.

24 Q. But a few years ago, when you were giving the statement, your

25 memory of these events was better, wasn't it? So why wasn't this

Page 4332












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13 English transcripts.













Page 4333

1 mentioned?

2 A. I didn't want my statement to become a novel. I wanted to say the

3 most important things, the essence, to the investigators, and when the

4 trial begins, I thought I would get an opportunity to clarify all the

5 details.

6 Q. So today we are going to hear the novel?

7 A. Believe me, if I recounted day for day what happened to me there,

8 it would have been a novel.

9 Q. Don't you think it would be valuable to this Tribunal?

10 A. That's why I came here, to recount everything, day by day, if so

11 required.

12 Q. But I'm telling you, you didn't mention it in 1997. If your

13 reason is that you didn't want to write a novel then, then that can be the

14 end of my questions.

15 A. That's true. I didn't go into too much detail because the

16 statement would take too long.

17 Q. Were you questioned about Vinko Martinovic, Stela, at that time?

18 A. The questions that they asked were answered in the statement.

19 They mentioned twice Stela. They asked me whether I saw him on Siroki

20 Brijeg. I said yes, when I did the paint work and when I cleaned the

21 offices in Tuta's headquarters.

22 Q. And even then, you didn't see fit to mention this incident?

23 A. No, because the beating of prisoners was a regular occurrence, and

24 if you mentioned every instance of it, it would take very long.

25 Q. So on the 4th and 5th of May -- sorry, 4th and 5th of September,

Page 4334

1 when you were giving the statement, you were also aware of this incident.

2 You were aware of this incident even then?

3 A. The 4th of September?

4 Q. 1997, when you were questioned.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And did you fail to mention it on purpose or you had forgotten it?

7 A. No. I didn't forget it because that's impossible to forget,

8 because that professor asked later to be brought shoes, and when he got

9 his Aspirin and his pain killers, we borrowed them from him.

10 Q. Who was the warden in Ljubuski prison?

11 A. I don't know. I never set eyes on him.

12 Q. That warden, was there a warden at all?

13 A. I don't know. We were released four times within three days into

14 the courtyard and we didn't see anyone apart from the couple of guards who

15 were standing there, and the people who had arrived on that particular

16 day. Since I spent there only two nights and three days before I left

17 Ljubuski, I couldn't learn much about it. I didn't see anything but the

18 courtyard.

19 Q. Does it mean that there was no one in control in Ljubuski?

20 A. From what I saw, yes.

21 Q. Did you ever report the abuse by soldiers, even outsiders?

22 A. No, never. I managed to get out of there, to escape outside, and

23 I tried to forget. I tried to forget all that I had gone through. I

24 tried to return to the normal life that I had before the war.

25 Q. In Siroko, when these persons whom you had mentioned would come in

Page 4335

1 - and we read their names just a minute ago - did they do so of their own

2 accord?

3 A. They were let in by the policemen. The policemen probably had to

4 unlock the doors for them, and they would come in and beat at random,

5 indiscriminately.

6 Q. What time of day was it? I'm sorry, I don't -- I'm not skipping

7 from one prison to another on purpose, but that's where my questions are

8 taking me. Was there any control over the guards, seeing how people from

9 outside could come in as they pleased?

10 A. I can't possibly know if and what kind of control there was

11 because we were locked up constantly. From 9.00 p.m. to 3.00 a.m., people

12 came in dressed in a variety of uniforms. The doors of our cells would be

13 unlocked and we were beaten, which means there was no control over them.

14 Q. Tell us, did it happen on several occasions, on different days?

15 A. From the first night when we were brought to Ljubuski, it happened

16 every night.

17 Q. Did you know, did you know then, or did you find out later, that

18 these soldiers who visited - you said they were not from Mostar - that

19 these soldiers were under anyone's control?

20 A. I don't understand. They came in as they pleased and did as they

21 pleased, which means they were under no control.

22 Q. Did they have a commander?

23 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't hear the answer.

24 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Yes. Were they behaving violently in an arbitrary way of their

Page 4336

1 own accord?

2 A. As I said, they came after 9.00 p.m., most of them after 12.00,

3 and they were under the influence, drunk, which probably means they came

4 straight from various bars. And they came in -- I don't know whether

5 somebody sent them or they came of their own accord. But they did come.

6 Q. Can we agree, based on this, that they were rowdy and drunk, if I

7 can use this term?

8 A. Most of them were, indeed, intoxicated. And judging by their

9 bloodshot eyes, some of them may have been drugged.

10 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us from your experience -- I don't know

11 how rich it is --

12 A. Very rich.

13 Q. Can you tell me from your experience with people if men in such a

14 wild state, prone to violence, under the influence of alcohol and other

15 substances, are possible to control, especially if they are armed?

16 A. They didn't come in with their weapons, with their rifles. And

17 control can be exerted over anyone by anyone who wishes to exert control.

18 Q. Yes, we can probably agree on that. But there are certain special

19 states, conditions which are difficult to control. That's what I had

20 meant.

21 Did you ever complain about this situation in Ljubuski to the

22 warden, to anyone who could possibly hear out your complaint about such

23 behaviour on the part of people who had nothing to do with the prison at

24 all? Did you ever complain about this wilful violent behaviour?

25 A. Civilian policemen were present, because they held the keys to our

Page 4337

1 cells. It was them who unlocked the cells in the first place, and they

2 told us, "We are not in a position to help you. We are civilian police.

3 These men here are soldiers in uniforms." They couldn't help us.

4 Q. Mr. BB, you mentioned on several occasions the anti-terrorist

5 group, abbreviated as ATG, and you referred to the Mostar ATG, saying that

6 this group was commanded by Vinko Martinovic. Are you aware of the fact

7 that on the territory of Mostar, there were several such ATGs and several

8 commanders?

9 A. There was Juka Prazina.

10 Q. Have you heard of Benko Penavic group?

11 A. No.

12 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Please show this witness

13 Exhibit 14.19, Prosecution Exhibit.

14 Q. On this photograph, do you recognise --

15 A. I don't see anything, sir.

16 Q. I'm sorry, I'll wait.

17 Can you see now? Do you have the photograph on your screen?

18 A. No -- yes, I see.

19 Q. Can you recognise the demarcation line, that is the Bulevar? Can

20 you point it to us?

21 A. Let me get this closer. I'll put it back.

22 One cannot see the Bulevar here.

23 Q. Can you see the Santic Street?

24 A. Yes, I can see it. Yes, I can see the Santic Street.

25 Q. Do you recognise in the right quarter of the photograph, this

Page 4338

1 street going across?

2 A. It's going towards the old hospital.

3 Q. Do you know the name of that street, if you can possibly

4 remember? Doesn't matter.

5 Do you see the Health Centre on this photograph?

6 A. No, not the Health Centre.

7 Q. Please leave the photograph there.

8 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] I would kindly like to show this

9 witness the Prosecution Exhibit from the 10th volume, P521. Sorry, it's

10 the 11th volume, the 11th binder. Exhibit 521.

11 Be so kind as to read for us the title of this.

12 A. Command of the 1st battalion --

13 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter cannot follow. We do not have

14 this document. Will you put it on the ELMO, please.

15 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Please read us parts of the line and show us which part of the

17 line was held by the HVO and tell us what the first paragraph says?

18 A. "The positions are held by members of PS of Mostar." I don't know

19 what "PS" is. "Within the first 12 hours, on the first defence lines,

20 there are 12 policemen plus another 12 policemen in a state of combat

21 readiness, on alert."

22 Q. That's enough. Now you see the second paragraph, "Old high

23 school"?

24 A. "I have a request. Since from the 10th May onwards, I don't know

25 about the demarcation line because I was on Siroki Brijeg, all I know is

Page 4339

1 that near the third school, there were sacks put up, and I was brought

2 behind the house of Mujaga Komandina through a demolished house up to the

3 high school, and that's where I carried the explosives. As for the

4 defence lines" --

5 Q. Sir, allow me to lead me with your questions, and you have just

6 started answering them, but we have to follow a sequence.

7 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters repeat that they do not have this

8 document.

9 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. I agree with you that you couldn't know about this when you were

11 in prison at the time. Below the part of the paragraph which says, "Line,

12 old high school," read for us.

13 A. "Positions are held by members of the 1st Battalion of the

14 military police, whereas reserve positions are held by members of the

15 Mostar PS."

16 Q. Turn the page. You will see a line that says, "Old high school,

17 Health Centre." Read it for us?

18 A. "Positions held by 4th -- 3rd Battalion of the HVO Brigade."

19 Q. Now, read this?

20 A. "Positions are held by Mrmak ATG."

21 Q. The next paragraph, we see, "Aleksic House Zahum." Read the first

22 sentence.

23 A. "Positions held by the 4th Battalion of the 3rd Brigade of the

24 HVO."

25 Q. Does it follow from this that the zone of responsibility of Vinko

Page 4340

1 Martinovic is precisely the Health Centre?

2 A. I don't know. I wasn't anywhere near the Health Centre.

3 Q. Thank you. Thank you. That's enough.

4 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] With the assistance of the usher, I

5 would like to show this witness the drawing 14.2. It's from the first

6 binder.

7 Q. Witness BB, can you orient yourself on this drawing, to show us

8 with a pointer Aleksa Santic Street, one, Bulevar, two, and the Health

9 Centre, three?

10 A. High school and Bulevar, Health Centre.

11 Q. Where would that primary school and the courthouse be located,

12 where you said you set explosives, you laid explosives?

13 A. Right here. That's where the primary school is. That's where the

14 courthouse is. This is the primary school. I mean the courthouse.

15 Q. Show us where Balinovac is, or Balinovac, whatever the accent is.

16 A. [Indicates]

17 Q. You said today, in your examination-in-chief, that it was from the

18 soldiers themselves that you found out they belonged with Stela's unit,

19 and you said some of them bragged of this fact. Is it possible that they

20 -- some of them simply bragged without really being members of Stela's

21 unit?

22 A. Anything is possible. But not in regard to Dolma whom I

23 mentioned.

24 Q. Please, just answer my questions. You said that many, without

25 naming names, many bragged that they belonged to Stela's unit. I'm asking

Page 4341

1 you again: Is it possible that some among these many bragged without

2 really being members?

3 A. I said yes.

4 Q. Thank you. Are you aware - and I have a reason for asking this,

5 without going into your background or that of my client - are you aware

6 that Vinko Martinovic joined the Convicts Battalion after the 12th of May,

7 1993?

8 A. I don't know.

9 Q. Is it possible that it was based on some other circumstances that

10 you belonged in a circle close to Vinko Martinovic?

11 A. A circle?

12 Q. Yes.

13 A. Well, at Balinovac, I socialised for a long time, for many years,

14 within a certain circle of people among which Vinko Martinovic, Stela, was

15 well known.

16 Q. And one last question: Can you remember today who worked together

17 with you on the town swimming pool? If you can remember those names, we

18 might go into private session.

19 A. You mean the town pool at Siroki Brijeg?

20 Q. Yes.

21 A. I can remember seven or eight names. Because for two days,

22 another team of our people worked there, and I can't remember exactly who

23 I worked with.

24 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] If I may ask, Your Honours, that we go

25 into private session once again so the witness can tell us these names.

Page 4342

1 JUDGE LIU: We will go to the private session.

2 [Private session]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [Open session]

20 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Mr. President. I

21 apologise, Mr. President, for saying that it was the last question, but I

22 forgot two or three very important questions, while we still have

23 Exhibit 14.2 in front of the witness. Shall we continue with this now, or

24 shall we leave it for tomorrow? I am at your disposal.

25 JUDGE LIU: It is time for us to adjourn. We will resume at 9.30

Page 4343

1 tomorrow morning.

2 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

3 4.00 p.m., to be reconvened on

4 Tuesday, the 23rd day of October, 2001,

5 at 9.30 a.m.