Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 4653

1 Wednesday, 31 October 2001

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.34 a.m.

6 JUDGE LIU: Call the case, Madam Registrar.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is Case Number

8 IT-98-34-T, the Prosecutor versus Martinovic and Naletilic.

9 JUDGE LIU: Good morning, everybody. Before you have the

10 re-examination of the witness, Mr. Scott, there is one thing I would like

11 to mention to both parties. We just got informed by the registrar that

12 the medical examination of Mr. Naletilic has been postponed due to the

13 scheduling difficulties regarding the transportation arrangements. We are

14 very sorry about this delay, but we are ensured that the examination will

15 take place as soon as possible. We are expecting the report from this

16 medical examination very soon.

17 So, Mr. Scott, your re-examination.

18 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. President.

19 WITNESS: Marko Prelec [Resumed]

20 Re-examined by Mr. Scott:

21 Q. Mr. Prelec, just a couple of questions actually on further review

22 from last week. Just to confirm in light of some of the questions on

23 cross-examination, in a number of instances, did you and, to your

24 knowledge, others doing similar work as you, find multiple copies of, for

25 instance, the same document in different files or parts of the Zagreb

Page 4654

1 archive?

2 A. Yes, many times.

3 Q. And a similar question but a bit different: Was it also the case

4 that you often found related or connected documents, not the same

5 document, for instance, a response or a reply to one document? Did you

6 often find related or connected documents spread among a number of

7 different files?

8 A. Yes, also very often.

9 MR. SCOTT: Now, if the usher can assist me, if the witness can

10 please be shown the Selected Zagreb Documents binder that has been used

11 with this witness, and specifically Exhibit P603.1. Perhaps it might be

12 easier if we could put that -- just put that on the ELMO. Might prevent

13 everyone necessarily having to dig that document out.

14 Mr. Usher, if you can put the English version of Exhibit P603.1 on

15 the ELMO, please. And Mr. Prelec, if you can look at that for a moment.

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 in your testimony last week that one of the things that you considered is

20 the external consistency or corroboration of a document. If you knew that

21 there was, for instance, trial testimony that was the same as or

22 consistent with a document, would that have an effect on your view as to

23 the authenticity of a document?

24 A. Yes, it would.

25 Q. And my final question to you is this: You were asked by Defence

Page 4655

1 counsel, in some respects, to express an assessment over the authenticity

2 of particular documents or a view as to particular documents. My question

3 to you is, based on your extensive work and the work of others with whom

4 you're closely associated at the archive, were you able to make an

5 assessment as to the identification and authentication of the archive as a

6 whole? In other words, do you have a view that it is what it purports to

7 be, that is, the HVO archive?

8 A. Yes, I'm certain it is.

9 Q. And again, briefly, can you explain to the Chamber why you believe

10 that.

11 A. Yes. It would be -- I think I may have put this actually in a

12 prior answer. But it would be impossible to create something like the

13 archive, or a substantial portion of it, in any fashion other than the

14 fashion in which such things are normally created, which is to say by the

15 day-to-day business of a very large political and military organisation

16 over the space of several years.

17 Well, I could maybe put it this way: As an historian, I'm not

18 aware of any case ever in recorded history of something of this nature,

19 something of this size being called in question in the way that you

20 suggest.

21 Q. Very well. Mr. Prelec, I thank you for your testimony.

22 MR. SCOTT: I have no further questions, Mr. President. I would

23 make a further record, please, as to the documents tendered through this

24 witness. Your Honour, the so-called Zagreb Archive Documents are listed

25 in what has separately been marked for identification for ease of

Page 4656

1 reference and for the record as Prosecution Exhibit P883. It is a 26-page

2 list, and obviously it would consume a substantial amount of time if I

3 were to read all those numbers into the record, but P883 is a listing of

4 that portion of that document tendered through Mr. Prelec.

5 In a similar fashion and as provided to the Chamber last week --

6 the Chamber should have all these lists available to it. They were

7 provided to your staff last week. There are also an additional five

8 Zagreb documents among the so-called International Armed Conflict

9 binders. Those are separately on another list, but for the record, they

10 are short so I can do it rather quickly. IAC19, IAC38, IAC64, IAC65, and

11 IAC67.

12 There is a third set of documents which are titled - and again a

13 listing that is available to the Chamber - UNPROFOR, (BiH Command

14 Kiseljak), and I won't mention the rest of the title because it's a

15 private session or an under-seal matter, but that document -- that list

16 then indicates a number of documents starting with P205.1 and concluding

17 that list at P569. Those are tendered to the Chamber at this time.

18 There was a fourth bundle of documents which I have simply for my

19 own purposes labelled as the Vance-Owen bundle, which is -- again a list

20 has been provided to the Chamber, but they are IAC27, IAC28, IAC29, P239,

21 P239.1, P265.1, P271, P272, and P349. I have also provided to the

22 Registry for its assistance a list of those documents specifically

23 mentioned by number in the course of Mr. Prelec's direct examination, and

24 that is also available. Thank you, Mr. President.

25 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Any objections from Defence counsel?

Page 4657

1 MR. MEEK: Good morning, Mr. President and Your Honours. The

2 Defence for Mr. Mladen Naletilic will object, and we will do that within

3 30 days in writing, to those documents which we do object to, and we will

4 also inform the Court which ones we do not object to. Thank you very

5 much.

6 JUDGE LIU: Well, I understand especially in that Vance-Owen

7 bundle there are some documents of the Resolutions of the United Nations

8 which -- do you still object to those documents into evidence?

9 MR. MEEK: Your Honour, right now, I would tell you no on the

10 Vance-Owen. On the United Nations documents, we would not object to

11 those, and we will also put that in writing. There are so many documents

12 in the one binder that we would like to have the time to look through each

13 one and make a decision. But for the Vance-Owen documents, the United

14 Nations documents, the Defence of Mr. Naletilic has no objection to

15 those.

16 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Mr. Par.

17 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour. The Defence

18 of Vinko Martinovic so far has no objections to these documents, but we

19 reserve the right later on to perhaps challenge some specific documents,

20 but so far we have no objections.

21 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. Since we have so many documents

22 tendered by the Prosecution, I believe that the Defence counsel have 30

23 days to submit your written objections concerning those documents. At the

24 same time, I also believe that we have to do some reform about the

25 submission of the objections on a single document or few

Page 4658

1 documents. We believe that for a single document, there is no need for

2 the 30 days to submit the written objections. So later on, if there is a

3 single document or very few documents, both parties will have seven days

4 to submit their written objections so that -- to ensure a fair and

5 expeditious trial. Thank you.

6 Any questions from Judges? Judge Clark.

7 Questioned by the Court:

8 JUDGE CLARK: Mr. Prelec, can you assist me on this: Are there

9 internationally recognised rules and norms for, first, for keeping

10 materials and then archiving them? In other words, was there much

11 difference between the procedures followed in the former Yugoslavia from

12 the ones followed when you were carrying out your research in Yale or

13 Harvard?

14 A. There are such norms, and I do know that they are currently

15 implemented in Croatia and specifically with regard to this particular

16 collection, although I don't know when this practice began. I can say

17 that my prior experience in archives in Croatia, which would date to the

18 early 1990s, they didn't seem particularly different, but I'm a user of

19 archives, not a technician, so I don't actually know the specifics, the

20 specific rules. I do know they exist, though.

21 JUDGE CLARK: Can I put it this way: Was there much difference

22 between the methodology of archiving for your doctorate in relation to

23 early nationalism and later archiving of the HVO papers?

24 A. I would say no. It was similar in that there was a cataloguing

25 system, and there's a -- there are means of preservation. It has become

Page 4659

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 4660

1 much more important for older or physically sensitive documents. But no.

2 JUDGE CLARK: So can I take it that if you were carrying out

3 research in, say, the former Communist Russia and pre-Communist Russia and

4 Czarist Russia, that there would be some similarity in the archiving of

5 materials?

6 A. I would think so. I have not actually worked in either of those,

7 but yes, I would think so.

8 JUDGE CLARK: Really, the point of all this is, is there an

9 internationally accepted method of archiving? And you have answered my

10 question, that an historian can go from one continent to the other and

11 feel comfortable with the methodology.

12 A. Yes, exactly.

13 JUDGE CLARK: Thank you.

14 The other thing I wanted to ask you about, on the basis that there

15 are internationally accepted rules for archiving, if one were dealing with

16 state documents, is it accepted fairly widely that sensitive state

17 documents are not available to researchers before a certain period has

18 elapsed?

19 In Britain and Ireland, we have the 30-year rule, the 50-year

20 rule, and the 100-year rule. For instance, it would only be 'round about

21 now that documents in relation to very sensitive treaty negotiations

22 during the First World War would be totally open to historians. Did you

23 come across that sort of rule in relation to sensitive state papers?

24 A. Yes, certainly that's a very common practice. Every state has its

25 own rules, and they vary from state to state. With regard to the material

Page 4661

1 now in the archive, what we have been calling the HVO archive, our access

2 to that -- our access to that is an exception to that rule because the

3 user is ultimately a Court, the Tribunal. It's a legal proceeding.

4 They're not for the public.

5 JUDGE CLARK: So the same rules didn't apply.

6 A. Yes. No, we have specific permission from the government. And by

7 "government," I mean the Cabinet.

8 JUDGE CLARK: The other thing I was going to ask you is was the

9 existence of that type of rule -- could the existence of that type of rule

10 be an explanation for the absence of any President Tudjman papers, which I

11 think Mr. Meek put to you, or it might have been Mr. Par, on Friday.

12 A. No. Those are in a different location. The HVO archive consists

13 almost entirely of material coming from Bosnia-Herzegovina from the Croat

14 entity there. The Tudjman papers would be and are, indeed, in the custody

15 of the Republic of Croatia and always have been. They have not, to my

16 knowledge, been yet submitted to the Croatian archive. They should be

17 still in the office of the president. There are, then, further

18 regulations for when -- after how long, and I know -- I've looked into

19 Croatian legislation on this -- how long government offices should retain

20 different classes of papers. Ultimately, they do end up, yes, in the

21 archive, but they won't -- they shouldn't go into this particular

22 collection.

23 JUDGE CLARK: So it was no surprise to you, as a researcher and

24 historian, not to find Tudjman papers in this particular archive?

25 A. No, not at all.

Page 4662

1 JUDGE CLARK: Now, to bring you specifically to this case, as

2 you've spent quite a while with these archives, you must have become aware

3 of the existence - and you mentioned them, indeed - of independent special

4 units within the HVO. And the evidence in this case has been that

5 Mr. Naletilic and Mr. Martinovic were involved in independent special

6 units.

7 Could you -- is it within your competence to help us with these

8 independent special units? Were they independent of army control or

9 independent of each other, or what do you mean by "independent special

10 unit"? If you feel this is outside your area of expertise, I mean, I

11 would accept that.

12 A. I can give perhaps a very limited answer, which would be based on

13 just general research in this area, since I haven't made a study of the

14 units, per se.

15 JUDGE CLARK: Yes.

16 A. My understanding is there are two, I suppose, categories that one

17 could consider. Independent units as independent -- or rather, as not

18 part of the ordinary traditional military hierarchy, which is in some ways

19 similar across a broad range of armies, from a central command, main

20 staff, all the way down to a platoon or a squad. So a unit that is within

21 the army, but outside the structure that the rest of the army has. It's

22 often said that these units, for example, are, you know -- I don't speak

23 now specifically about this case -- are assets of the general staff or the

24 central command.

25 The other thing I could say is there's a class of units that were

Page 4663

1 referred to as anti-terrorist units. And this covered also a certain

2 range. It was the practice of the HVO to have within -- well, certainly

3 the combat forces of the military police, and I believe also other units

4 and anti-terrorists -- what was called an anti-terrorist unit. This was

5 an elite unit. However, there were also other units that were called

6 anti-terrorist units that do not seem to have been part of a specific

7 military battalion. But I don't think I could really provide much more

8 assistance on that.

9 My -- I suppose, to go back to the immediate question, which, if I

10 recall correctly, was to what degree they were independent of the HVO.

11 JUDGE CLARK: The HVO.

12 A. I know that they relied on the logistics of the HVO, from

13 correspondence back and forth. And I know that the Convicts Battalion, in

14 particular, had what appears to be a dedicated sequence of order numbers

15 which was not used by other HVO units but was within the same range. And

16 I suppose the Chamber will be able to see this from the documents before

17 it. I believe it was 02-2/2, or something like this, and then there are

18 numbers above and below that. This indicates that there's at least some

19 degree of integration. But I recognise it's a limited answer.

20 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

21 JUDGE CLARK: Sorry. The documents relating to the independent

22 special units, so-called, were found by you within the HVO archives?

23 A. Yes. They also -- there are also other sources of documents, but

24 yes, certainly the ones about which I testified in this particular

25 session, yes, numbers of those were found within the HVO archive.

Page 4664

1 JUDGE CLARK: Now, you mentioned something which the whole Bench

2 is very interested in, and it was something that you said sort of en

3 personne, that there were some papers that you found within

4 Mr. Naletilic's file. Did you find a Naletilic file within the archive?

5 A. No. I may have given the wrong impression. I don't recall saying

6 that. I do recall finding papers of or purporting to be of Mr. Naletilic,

7 and there was a file that was called "Units Under the Staff." It was

8 translated in a certain way by the court interpreters. The B/C/S was "Pod

9 Stozerne Postrojbe," and within this set there were a variety of units, a

10 variety -- papers from a variety of units, including those of

11 Mr. Naletilic.

12 JUDGE CLARK: I see. But there wasn't one specifically on

13 Mr. Naletilic?

14 A. I have never seen a file of papers labelled "File of

15 Mr. Naletilic." There were small files, a police file or something like

16 this, but it would be just sort of like an index sheet or something like

17 that.

18 JUDGE CLARK: Something like that. Names, I take it, to an

19 historian must be something of vital importance, and I wanted you to

20 explain to us, as somebody of Croatian origin but reared in the United

21 States, of how so many people who come to give evidence in this case or

22 who are referred to in this case and who are adult men have what would

23 appear to us in the West to be babyish nicknames which would have been

24 abandoned once the children went to secondary school. Can you explain the

25 nicknames like "Tuta"?

Page 4665

1 A. I'm sorry, I really have no actual experience with that. I do

2 know that nicknames are a popular feature of South Slavic culture, but I

3 don't really know much beyond that.

4 JUDGE CLARK: It's got nothing to do with identifying a common

5 surname or anything like that, like one uses in Wales with "Jones" and in

6 Ireland with the name "Ryan"?

7 A. Well, that does happen, yes. In some places, especially rural

8 areas, one has only a few surnames which are often the same as the

9 village. So to take what may be the best example around here, the very

10 large number of persons named Ahmic from the village of Ahmici. But I

11 don't think that's the only reason why people have nicknames, and those

12 may tend to be somewhat different.

13 I have a friend whose family was from one of these small villages,

14 and there were also just four or five surnames. His entire family had a

15 family nickname which was "Italian," the word "Italian," for obscure

16 reasons, but there are also individual personal nicknames that are adopted

17 by people as they reach adulthood and that may indicate some sort of --

18 well, you know -- I wouldn't speculate, really. I'm sorry.

19 JUDGE CLARK: It's just something, part of the culture, and you

20 can't go beyond that. It's just we've come across it so often we thought

21 maybe you might have been somebody who could help us.

22 Thank you very, very much for your enlightening testimony.

23 JUDGE LIU: Any questions out of Judge Clark's questions?

24 MR. SCOTT: Not for the Prosecution.

25 MR. MEEK: None, Your Honour.

Page 4666

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 4667

1 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] No questions, Your Honour. Thank you.

2 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Thank you very much.

3 Thank you, Witness, for giving evidence. You may leave now.

4 Mr. Scott, how about your next witness?

5 MR. SCOTT: Yes, Your Honour. Mr. Bos will be handling the next

6 witness. Thank you.

7 [The witness withdrew]

8 MR. BOS: Good morning, Your Honours. The next witness has

9 requested protective measures, as it was indicated on the list, so he has

10 requested the protective measures of face, voice, and pseudonym. The

11 witness has lived in Mostar and still lives in Mostar, and he feels that

12 he needs this protection in order to testify.

13 JUDGE LIU: Any objections from the Defence counsel?

14 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

16 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. After

17 seven days, no, we have no objections. No.

18 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. Well, as for the facial and the

19 voice distortion, we believe that we need a break for the technicians to

20 have the equipment fixed. We will break for about ten minutes. We will

21 resume at quarter past ten.

22 --- Break taken at 10.05 a.m.

23 --- On resuming at 10.20 a.m.

24 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Bos.

25 MR. BOS: I think the witness would have to take the oath first.

Page 4668

1 JUDGE LIU: I think you have to brief us with the relevance to the

2 indictment.

3 MR. BOS: I'm sorry, Your Honours. Yes.

4 This witness will testify on the following paragraphs of the

5 indictment: Background, paragraph 10; Superior Authority, paragraph 14;

6 count 1, paragraphs 26 through 30, paragraph 33, paragraph 34(a) and

7 34(b); counts 2 through 8, paragraphs 35 through 40, and paragraph 44;

8 counts 9 through 12, paragraphs 45 through 48, and paragraph 50.

9 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

10 WITNESS: Witness FF

11 [Witness answered through interpreter]

12 JUDGE LIU: Witness, will you please stand up and make the solemn

13 declaration, please.

14 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

15 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

16 JUDGE LIU: You may sit down, please.

17 Yes, Mr. Bos.

18 MR. BOS: Thank you, Your Honour.

19 Examined by Mr. Bos:

20 THE INTERPRETER: Can the counsel please come closer to the

21 microphone or switch on his microphone.

22 MR. BOS:

23 Q. Witness, the usher is going to show you a sheet of paper which

24 indicates your name and the pseudonym which you will be testifying under.

25 The Trial Chamber has granted the protective measures, so you'll be

Page 4669

1 testifying under a pseudonym, and your face and your voice will be

2 distorted during your testimony.

3 So could you please have a look at the sheet of paper and tell

4 us -- confirm whether this is -- the name on the paper is, in fact, your

5 name.

6 A. It is.

7 Q. Thank you.

8 So, as you could see on the sheet of paper, you'll be referred to

9 as "Witness FF."

10 MR. BOS: May it please the Court.

11 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

12 MR. BOS: For the first part of my examination, I would like to go

13 into private session, if that's possible.

14 JUDGE LIU: We'll go to the private session.

15 [Private session]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 4670

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [Open session]

15 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

16 MR. BOS:

17 Q. Witness FF, could you tell us what happened on the morning of the

18 9th of May, 1993. Where were you and what happened?

19 A. On the 9th of May, 1993, sometime around 5.00, the attack on the

20 Vranica building began. That was the building that I lived in. It was

21 5.00 in the morning, and I was asleep, and so was all my family and all

22 the residents of the building.

23 Q. What did you do when the attack started?

24 A. Well, the same as everybody else in the building; we all retreated

25 towards the interior part of the building, that is, to the staircase.

Page 4671

1 Q. Did you remain there for the rest of the day?

2 A. Yes. All the residents spent the day, the whole of the 9th of

3 May, on the staircase of the building.

4 Q. Did you at one moment move somewhere else, into another part of

5 the building, and when was this?

6 A. No, I didn't move to another part of the building. The buildings

7 were connected by cellars, but it had been walled up. Only my father and

8 I, and presumably some other people, only went to some flats to get some

9 water and some clothing.

10 Q. Now, how long did the attack last?

11 A. Well, the attack lasted for two days. About two days, the 9th and

12 the 10th. That is, in the afternoon of the 10th, the residents of the

13 building surrendered or, rather, stepped out of the building.

14 Q. Could you explain what happened when the residents surrendered.

15 Where did you go and what happened?

16 A. Since there are joint buildings, there are four entrances. So

17 people went out through their respective entrances. I came out with other

18 people through the front door which belonged to our building, and

19 residents from the adjoining part, because that part was on fire, they

20 moved through the cellar where the wall was broken down. They reached our

21 front door and came out into the yard of the building together with us.

22 Another group of people whose front door was on the other side of the

23 building, they came out into the west part of the yard, whereas we had

24 come out into the east part of the yard.

25 Q. Now, Witness, is it correct that you made a drawing of the

Page 4672

1 building and what you just explained? Did you put that in a drawing?

2 A. Yes.

3 MR. BOS: I'd like to show the witness this drawing which the

4 witness made, and I have copies for Your Honours as well. It will be

5 marked as Exhibit P884, and the Defence was provided with a copy just

6 before the break.

7 JUDGE LIU: Could we be informed, when was this drawing made?

8 MR. BOS: Yes, Your Honour. This drawing was made on this Monday,

9 when I spoke with the witness.

10 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

11 MR. BOS: I wonder if this drawing could be put on the ELMO so the

12 witness could make some indications.

13 Q. Witness, do you recognise this drawing?

14 A. I do recognise it.

15 Q. Can you explain what you have written down. First of all, which

16 is -- which of the squares is the Vranica building?

17 A. This here is the Vranica building.

18 Q. All right. And then you've drawn a square on the left with the

19 letter "E." What does that represent?

20 A. This is the School of Economics.

21 Q. There appears to be a road running along these two complexes which

22 you have indicated as "SR." What did that represent?

23 A. That's the Stjepana Radica Street.

24 Q. Now, could you please explain what happened on the 10th of May;

25 where you actually exited the building and where other tenants of that

Page 4673

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 4674

1 building exited. And you've made some drawings. Could you please explain

2 this in detail.

3 A. The tenants who lived in this part of the building, that part of

4 the building caught fire, and these people, through the basement, managed

5 to arrive in our part of the building which had been shelled but was not

6 on fire. And together with us, they exited this way, whereas the tenants

7 who were here, at the very corner, exited here in front of the School of

8 Economics. Also, there was a fourth entrance, and the people living there

9 exited as shown with the arrow.

10 Q. Now, could you please repeat which exit you took on the 10th of

11 May.

12 A. I exited here, using this entrance. In fact, that is -- that is

13 the -- that was the entrance to my section of the building.

14 MR. BOS: For the record, this is the exit which is on the right

15 side of the square, the middle arrow, pointing outside the square.

16 Could the witness now be shown Exhibit 11.13, please. Yes. This

17 exhibit could be put on the ELMO, please.

18 Q. Now, Witness, do you recognise this photograph?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. What does it depict?

21 A. [redacted]. That's the Vranica

22 building.

23 MR. BOS: Could we put Exhibit P884 again on the ELMO.

24 Q. Could you please indicate with the pointer which side of the

25 building is, in fact, depicted on that photograph. Where on the drawing

Page 4675

1 would that side of the building be?

2 A. It would be this side, the west side.

3 Q. The left side of the square. Thank you.

4 A. Yes, the left side on the sketch.

5 Q. Now, Witness, there are three more squares which we haven't

6 discussed. One is the square just above the square which depicts -- which

7 is the Vranica building, and it's a square which is indicated with a "P,"

8 a big square with a "P." What is this building?

9 A. That was the police station.

10 Q. And were any of the tenants who were taken out of the building,

11 were they taken to that building, as far as you know?

12 A. All the tenants were taken to that building except for me and

13 another smaller group.

14 Q. And how many people are we talking about who were taken to this

15 police station?

16 A. Well, these were the tenants from two entrances. So it could have

17 been 300 people, 200 to 300 people.

18 Q. You testified that you were taken somewhere else. Where were you

19 taken or where did you go?

20 A. I went with a smaller group to the hospital, which we called

21 surgery, and we carried the wounded there. It is the one marked with the

22 letter "H" on the drawing.

23 Q. Now, you said you carried the wounded. How many wounded people

24 were there?

25 A. We carried four wounded.

Page 4676

1 Q. And could you tell me who they were and what type of injuries they

2 had? You don't have to call their names but what type of persons they

3 were.

4 A. There were two ABiH members. One was wounded in the back, and I

5 believe the other had a stomach injury. There were a young girl of age 10

6 who had a head injury, and there was a man of an advanced age who was

7 wounded in both legs.

8 Q. Were these people wounded by bullet wounds, as far as you know?

9 A. I assumed that they were bullet wounds, but I cannot be 100 per

10 cent sure. It was either shrapnel or bullet wounds.

11 Q. What happened after you had delivered these wounded people at the

12 hospital?

13 A. This group in which I was, we were about ten altogether, and we

14 were taken to -- immediately to this other police station which was next

15 door to the hospital.

16 Q. Was this police station also referred to by another name, as far

17 as you know?

18 A. Yes. She is much better known as "the stone building."

19 Q. What happened to you when you arrived at the stone building?

20 A. They took us to the inner courtyard of this police station, and

21 they placed us in two small rooms which had metal doors, and they were

22 without windows, very small rooms.

23 Q. Now, who is "they"? Who took you there?

24 A. Members of the HVO.

25 Q. And how did you recognise these people as members of the HVO?

Page 4677

1 A. They were wearing camouflage uniforms. And because there was an

2 attack, they had the tricolour ribbons - the tricolour was the Croatian

3 tricolour - on their shoulders.

4 Q. For how long did you stay at this police station called the stone

5 building?

6 A. I stayed three days and three nights.

7 Q. Were you ever interrogated in this building?

8 A. Yes, on two occasions.

9 Q. Who interrogated you on the first occasion?

10 A. I was interrogated by a person whose last name was Bosnjak.

11 Q. And what did he ask you?

12 A. He asked me whether I was a member of the army, what I was doing.

13 The standard questions; why I was shooting at Croats and so on.

14 Q. Were you beaten on that occasion?

15 A. No.

16 Q. And what about the second time you were interrogated; by whom were

17 you interrogated on that occasion?

18 A. I was interrogated on that occasion by two members in uniforms

19 without any insignia. This was in the stone building, so I assumed that

20 they were members of the Herceg-Bosna MUP.

21 Q. Could you explain what happened during this second interrogation.

22 Did anything particular happen?

23 A. At the very beginning, when I entered the room, I saw that the

24 window was open. And the very beginning, they told me, "Try to escape.

25 Your colleague before tried to and did not succeed."

Page 4678

1 Q. What did you do?

2 A. I sat down in the chair. I did not try anything.

3 Q. Did you later find out who this colleague was, as they referred

4 to? Did you speak with that man afterwards?

5 A. Later on we met at Ljubuski, also in the camp. He used to be a

6 judge before the war.

7 Q. What did he tell you what happened to him?

8 A. He told me that he was, in fact, pushed out that window, and this

9 was the height of about 5 to 6 metres. And he fell in front of the main

10 entrance to the building and twisted or broke his ankle. And then a guard

11 shot him in his legs.

12 Q. Now, where were you taken after your detention at this local

13 police station?

14 A. The whole group was moved to Ljubuski.

15 Q. And how long were you detained for in Ljubuski?

16 A. About one month.

17 Q. During your detention in the Ljubuski prison, was this prison ever

18 visited by a man named Romeo Blazevic and another man named Ernest Takac?

19 A. Yes, both of them came two days after our arrival at Ljubuski.

20 Q. Do you know for which unit these two people were serving?

21 A. They said that they were members of the Convicts Battalion.

22 Q. And did you know these people from before the war, or was this the

23 first time you met them?

24 A. I used to know them by sight from before the war.

25 Q. You said that they arrived on the second day of your detention.

Page 4679

1 What did they do on that -- at that time?

2 A. They came on the second day, and they were looking for an ABiH

3 member who was an ethnic Croat.

4 Q. And what was the name of that person who they were looking for?

5 A. That was Rudolf Jozelic, J-O-Z-E-L-I-C.

6 Q. Did they find this man in Ljubuski?

7 A. Yes, he was in the cell with me.

8 Q. What did they do to this man?

9 A. They beat him up.

10 Q. Did you witness this beating?

11 A. No. But after a while, we were all brought out into the

12 courtyard, and we saw him covered in blood.

13 Q. Did this man, Rudolf Jozelic, later on tell you what happened to

14 him?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. What did he tell you?

17 A. He told me that they had beaten him with a shovel.

18 Q. Where had they beaten him?

19 A. All over his body. They broke several of his ribs and nose.

20 Q. Now, you said that you and the other prisoners were taken out, and

21 that's when you saw Rudolf Jozelic. What happened after that?

22 A. After that, they also hit several times, they kicked and punched

23 two journalists several times.

24 Q. Who is "they," when you refer to "they"?

25 A. These were two journalists who were journalists before the war,

Page 4680

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 4681

1 one who was called Alija Lizde, L-I-Z-D-E, and the other one Dzemal

2 Hamzic, H-A-M-Z-I-C.

3 Q. By whom were they beaten?

4 A. By both of them. That means both by Takac and by Blazevic.

5 Q. Did -- after this beating, did Takac talk to you?

6 A. Yes. He asked me for my name.

7 Q. Did you give your name?

8 A. Yes, I told him my name.

9 Q. What did he then ask you, or then what did he tell you?

10 A. In fact, he recognised my name. Did he not know me, but he knew

11 my father. And after that, he asked me whether I knew the Jukic brothers,

12 J-U-K-I-C.

13 Q. How did you respond?

14 A. I responded that I did know them.

15 Q. And what did he tell you then?

16 A. He told me they came here to beat the balijas.

17 Q. Was he then referring to the Jukic brothers or was he referring to

18 himself?

19 A. He was referring to them, to the Jukic brothers.

20 Q. Were you beaten on that occasion?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Now, was there ever a time when a man arrived at the Ljubuski

23 prison by the name of -- who identified himself as the brother of Cikota?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. What happened when he arrived? What did he do?

Page 4682

1 A. He also came looking for members of the army, but like people

2 before him and after him, he was -- he also was looking for Rudi Jozelic.

3 Q. And do you know what he did to Rudi Jozelic when he found him?

4 A. He also beat him up.

5 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Meek.

6 MR. MEEK: Mr. President, Your Honours, I object to the form of

7 that question. It assumes facts not in evidence, and it's also leading

8 and suggestive.

9 JUDGE LIU: Well, the question is: "What happened when he

10 arrived? What did he do? What do you know, and do you know what he

11 did?" Well, I don't think it's a leading question.

12 You may proceed.

13 MR. BOS: Thank you, Your Honour.

14 Q. You said that Mr. Jozelic was also -- was beaten up. Did you

15 witness this beating?

16 A. I did not.

17 Q. How do you know then that he was beaten?

18 A. Later, he was taken to the hospital to bandage his ribs, because

19 again he suffered fractured ribs.

20 Q. Was there ever a time that a man by the name of Tuta visited

21 Ljubuski?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Can you tell me approximately when that was and what he did.

24 A. Perhaps ten days after my arrival at Ljubuski, a group of

25 prisoners was brought from Siroki Brijeg. They told me that they had been

Page 4683

1 at Tuta's prison, that they had worked for him on some construction at

2 some swimming pool. And Mr. Tuta came the following day for them, because

3 apparently they had been brought to Ljubuski without his knowledge, and he

4 needed them to finish the work that they were doing for him.

5 Q. So you're saying that he came to collect prisoners? Did he in

6 fact take prisoners on that day with him?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Now, did you see this man by the name of Tuta on that occasion?

9 A. I did not.

10 Q. How did you know that he visited Ljubuski?

11 A. He only took younger prisoners, those who could work, and the

12 older ones were left behind, and it was they who told me this.

13 Q. You said that you stayed for about a month in Ljubuski. Where

14 were you taken after Ljubuski?

15 A. After Ljubuski, I was taken to the Heliodrom.

16 Q. Do you know approximately what date that was?

17 A. I think it was the first week of the month of June. I don't know

18 the exact date.

19 Q. Now, while being in the Heliodrom, were you ever being

20 interrogated?

21 A. Only -- on one day only, they took our personal data, that is, the

22 full names and dates of birth. There was no real interrogation.

23 Q. Did there come a time that you were taken out of -- that you were

24 taken to an office by somebody while being detained in the Heliodrom?

25 A. That was perhaps seven to ten days after I was brought to the

Page 4684

1 Heliodrom. They called me out, and I followed the guard to a nearby small

2 building, which was about 10 to 20 metres away from the central prison

3 building at Heliodrom.

4 MR. BOS: Your Honour, I would like to ask to go into private

5 session for the next couple of questions.

6 JUDGE LIU: Well, we are approaching the break. Can you finish

7 your questioning in 3 minutes?

8 MR. BOS: Then I would prefer that we continue after the break, if

9 that's acceptable. Because it will take a while.

10 JUDGE LIU: We'll resume at 11.30.

11 --- Recess taken at 11.00

12 --- On resuming at 11.34 a.m.

13 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Bos.

14 MR. BOS: Your Honours, before the break, I asked if we could go into

15 private session. I don't know if we can do that right now. Private session

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 4685

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13 Page 4685 – redacted – private session.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 4686

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13 Page 4686 – redacted – private session.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 4687

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 4688

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13 Page 4688 – redacted – private session.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 4689

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 JUDGE LIU: We'll go back to the open session.

25 [Open session]

Page 4690

1 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We are now in open session.

2 MR. BOS:

3 Q. How long did you stay in the Heliodrom?

4 A. I was at the Heliodrom until the 1st of July. On the 30th of

5 June, 1st of July, some 20, 22 days.

6 Q. And where were you taken on the 1st of July?

7 A. We were taken to Dretelj.

8 Q. And do you know why you were taken to Dretelj? Why couldn't you

9 stay at the Heliodrom?

10 A. They relocated us to Dretelj because a large number of Bosniak

11 prisoners were about to arrive. On the 30th of June, the Armija

12 Bosnia-Herzegovina liberated a part of the territory, and then HVO men

13 were rounding up all men, all Bosniak men.

14 Q. For how long did you stay at the Dretelj camp?

15 A. Twenty days.

16 Q. How were the conditions in the Dretelj camp?

17 A. It was the worst camp of all that I had been in. The conditions

18 were there as in Auschwitz in World War II or some such concentration

19 camps.

20 Q. Did you ever witness any beatings while you were in Dretelj camp?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Can you tell us about that.

23 A. On two occasions; once I saw the beating. The second time, I only

24 heard it, because those men had been taken out of the hangar in which we

25 were kept. On that first occasion, HVO men burst in, and they mostly beat

Page 4691

1 elderly men, using batons and fists and feet.

2 Q. And the second occasion?

3 A. The second time, we could only hear the blows and the cries of

4 pain. And after that, we saw people swollen with bruises, and there was

5 blood on some of them, but we could not see what they had been beaten

6 with.

7 Q. Do you know who the commander of the Dretelj camp was?

8 A. I did not see him ever, but I heard the mention of a name Anicic.

9 Q. Who guarded the Dretelj camp?

10 A. Members of the HVO.

11 Q. For how long did you stay in the Dretelj camp?

12 A. About 20 days.

13 Q. And where were you taken after your detention at the Dretelj camp?

14 A. After Dretelj, they took us back to the Heliodrom.

15 Q. While you were back at the Heliodrom, were you ever taken out for

16 labour?

17 A. Not during the first ten days because we were all very weak.

18 After that, they took us to the separation line, to the front line, in

19 Mostar, that is, Bulevar and Santiceva Street.

20 Q. On how many occasions were you taken -- on how many occasions were

21 you taken to the Santiceva Street?

22 A. Four, five times.

23 Q. And what was the type of work that you had to do there?

24 A. Mostly repairing trenches and bunkers, filling the bags and

25 carrying the bags to the front line. I mean sandbags, sandbags for the

Page 4692

1 bunkers.

2 Q. And who guarded you?

3 A. There were guards who were members of the 2nd Battalion of the

4 HVO.

5 Q. You testified earlier that you also worked at the Bulevar. How

6 many times did you work at the Bulevar?

7 A. I was there only once.

8 Q. And that one occasion that you were taken to the Bulevar, who took

9 you there?

10 A. Guards and the driver arrived. I didn't know them, and they put

11 12 of us into a van, and then took us to Rondo, to a house there.

12 Q. Do you recall the name of that house or the person who lived in

13 that house?

14 A. It was Peskina Street. That was the last name of the family which

15 used to live there.

16 Q. Could you please spell that name for the transcript?

17 A. P-E-S-K-E [sic], Peske [sic]. That was the family name.

18 Q. Did you recognise any of the people who you saw there when you

19 were taken to this house of Dr. Peskina?

20 A. Yes. I knew some of the men before the war.

21 Q. Where did you know them from?

22 A. I knew them by sight, because they were from Mostar.

23 Q. And did you find out for which unit these people were working?

24 A. They were under the command of Benito Sesar, but they all talked

25 about being Stela's ATG.

Page 4693

1 Q. Now, you referred to "Stela's ATG." Have you ever met this person

2 called Stela?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Now, where did the soldiers take you when you were guarded in this

5 house of Peskina?

6 A. They took us to a house which we all knew as Dr. Aleksic's house.

7 Q. And what did you have to do there?

8 A. There we had to repair the trenches and the bunker.

9 Q. And while you were doing this work, was there any fighting going

10 on at that moment?

11 A. Yes. A couple of times fire was opened against the opposite

12 side.

13 Q. Did there come a time in August that you were again taken to work

14 at Santiceva Street?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Do you know which date that was?

17 A. I remember the date when I was wounded. It was the 30th of

18 August. I was taken to the Santiceva Street, or more precisely, to the

19 old post office in Mostar.

20 Q. Sir, you said that you got wounded. Could you please explain what

21 kind of work you had to do and how you got wounded.

22 A. It was a group of five prisoners. We were brought to a

23 residential building which was at the front line, and we were taken to the

24 mezzanine level to reinforce that line. It was a door to the balcony that

25 was used as a parapet, and they wanted it filled up with sandbags up to

Page 4694

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 4695

1 the ceiling, and our task was to do that at that time.

2 Q. And how did you get wounded?

3 A. At the moment when I went to pick up a bag, I heard a shot and a

4 bullet passed through both my arms.

5 Q. Did you see where the bullet came from?

6 A. I saw with the corner of my eye sort of a flame from the rifle

7 that had fired. It was to my left, the side where the other prisoners

8 were and the HVO soldiers.

9 Q. So who do you think -- who do you think shot -- made that shot?

10 Who shot at you, do you think?

11 A. I believe that it was a member of the HVO.

12 Q. What kind of injury did you get to your arm?

13 A. I had both arms fractured. All my nerves were blown. And this

14 was an explosive type of round, one that exploded when it hit you. So my

15 muscle was blown. And they had to take a muscle from the back and implant

16 it, and also I had my arm put in a fixator.

17 Q. Did the wound heal? Is your arm functioning again?

18 A. The doctors did what they could. They couldn't do more. So it

19 healed as much as it could have. I now have about 10 percent of the use

20 of the arm.

21 MR. BOS: I have no further questions for this witness, Your

22 Honour.

23 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

24 Cross-examination, Mr. Krsnik.

25 Cross-examined by Mr. Krsnik:

Page 4696

1 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Witness. I am the attorney of

2 the accused Naletilic, and I will ask you certain questions. I am going

3 to be asking questions, and I am going to endeavour to frame them in such

4 a way as to get the shortest possible answer from them. So will you

5 please listen to me very carefully as I ask them, and I also will have to

6 turn off my microphone before you answer.

7 Witness, will you tell me, at whose request did you make the

8 drawing that is still on the monitor here?

9 A. At my own request so that I could explain things better.

10 Q. To explain better what?

11 A. The paths that the tenants used to exit the building, and also its

12 relation to other buildings.

13 Q. And why did you think that important?

14 A. In order to be understood which side each group -- by which side

15 each group left the building.

16 Q. Witness, do you recall the statement that you gave to the AID in

17 1995?

18 A. I do.

19 Q. Do you recall the statement that you gave to the investigators of

20 this Tribunal?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Do you recall that in both of these statements that you were taken

23 in front of the stone building?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Did you ever mention the tenants in any of your statements?

Page 4697

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Witness, of course, when we get there, I will give you the

3 statements that you've given to review, and I have enough copies. But in

4 your first statement, you never mentioned any tenants, and in the second,

5 just briefly that you were separated from them. But two days before your

6 evidence, suddenly you felt the urge and then even produce a drawing to

7 talk about all the tenants. This is only two days before you were to give

8 evidence.

9 A. I believe --

10 Q. Let me give you a map of Mostar.

11 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] This is Prosecution Exhibit -- This

12 is a Prosecution Exhibit, Number P11.18.

13 JUDGE LIU: Do we have Defence counsel's number for that? I mean

14 a D number. Yes, Madam Registrar.

15 THE REGISTRAR: Well, I've just provided the witness with the

16 official copy of the exhibit, so it's P11.18.

17 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

18 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Will you please place it on the

19 ELMO.

20 Q. Witness, will you please take the pointer, and will you please

21 show me on this map here where the stone building was.

22 A. Right here.

23 Q. Is that near the Splitska Street?

24 THE INTERPRETER: Can the witness please talk into the

25 microphone.

Page 4698

1 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Bos.

2 MR. BOS: The witness has been shown an exhibit with other

3 markings on it, and I don't think that's very appropriate.

4 JUDGE LIU: I've already noted that. And Madam Registrar will

5 produce a clean one.

6 A. It is here.

7 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

8 Q. We can say that this is in the street between the Stjepana Radica

9 and Splitska Streets.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Now, can you tell me where the hospital is where you took the

12 wounded persons?

13 A. At the corner, right by the stone building.

14 Q. At this very corner of Kralj Tvrtko Street and the street where

15 the stone building was?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Will you please put number "1" there. Or perhaps we can place

18 letter "H," which is an international sign for hospital.

19 A. [Marks]

20 Q. And above it, will you please mark with "P" where the police

21 station was.

22 A. [Marks]

23 Q. Thank you, Witness. Can you tell me now -- now we can see on the

24 map, and we can see what route you took. The 13 of you were then taken to

25 the stone building to be interrogated.

Page 4699

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. You don't know what happened to the others from the Vranica

3 building?

4 A. You mean the other tenants?

5 Q. Yes.

6 A. No, I don't know.

7 Q. And you don't know what happened to the soldiers either?

8 A. No, except I know that they passed by the fence of this first

9 police station building and they entered it.

10 Q. Who was that; the residents? the tenants?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Very well. Will you now tell me, Witness, do you have any

13 knowledge about any of the units which, as you said, had attacked the

14 Vranica building?

15 A. Who took part -- I don't know which units took part in it.

16 Q. You see, Witness, in the statement you gave on 8 January 1995

17 [sic], I believe it was -- no. Sorry, it was 1996. I have a pretty

18 illegible copy. So that was the 6th of January 1996 when your

19 recollection was at its freshest.

20 Apart from being taken in front of the stone building, there's no

21 mention of any carrying of the wounded, and today in your evidence, what

22 you testified to today, you never mention it. You never mention events in

23 Ljubuski in which Takac was involved. There is not even a "T" of Tuta in

24 it. There's nothing about the Heliodrom. And you gave that statement two

25 years after all these events had happened to you.

Page 4700

1 The statement that you gave to the investigators of this Tribunal,

2 it seems as -- on the 5th of October, 1998, it seems as if your

3 recollection came back. Now we have names. Mladen Naletilic appears in

4 it.

5 Tell me, did they ask you about those names, the investigators?

6 A. What investigators are you referring to?

7 Q. The investigators of this Tribunal.

8 A. They did not ask me anything about them. I just said what

9 happened.

10 Q. And why did you not say that to the investigators of the secret

11 police?

12 A. First because I was not sure I wanted to give testimony, and then

13 there were a lot of people there so I didn't feel that it was confidential

14 enough for me to give such a statement.

15 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I will ask the usher. I have nine

16 copies in English. I believe that my learned friends from the Prosecution

17 have it, and I have one copy in B/C/S for the witness.

18 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Bos.

19 MR. BOS: Which statement is the witness going to see now?

20 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] The statement given to the AID on the

21 6th of January, 1996, my learned friend.

22 Q. Witness, will you be so kind to read to yourself the first

23 statement that you gave to the organs of - how shall I put it? - your own

24 entity, the secret police, which is also known as AID. And please find me

25 any of the names Romeo Blazevic, Takac, Tuta, any mention of the wounded.

Page 4701

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 4702

1 You were telling the truth when you were testifying, and you told

2 the whole truth?

3 A. I did not tell any details.

4 Q. Now, what details were omitted? Did you consider them

5 insignificant when you omitted them?

6 A. I did consider them important, but I wasn't -- I didn't feel

7 safe. There were too many people.

8 Q. There were too many people?

9 A. Yes.

10 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Bos.

11 MR. BOS: I was just wondering, could my learned colleague please

12 pay attention to the microphone, because he keeps the microphone on, and

13 he should make an effort.

14 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

15 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, my learned friend. I will

16 pay attention.

17 Q. So my question was: How do you mean too many people? These were

18 the organs of your police. How many people were present there when you

19 were questioned?

20 A. There were three, but non-stop people were going in and out, and

21 two or three witnesses were giving evidence at the same time.

22 Q. Tell me, this is referring to the same case?

23 A. Different cases, but the general information was the same.

24 Q. So how could the investigators of this Tribunal come and talk to

25 you when in the statement that you gave to the AID -- and we know that the

Page 4703

1 AID has been closely cooperating with this institution, how did they

2 arrive at you? How did it come about that you came to testify before this

3 Tribunal?

4 A. The same as I was called for the first time.

5 Q. And who called you for the first time?

6 A. Members of the police.

7 Q. Excuse me, Witness, members of the police or members of the secret

8 police?

9 A. Members of the AID.

10 Q. So the second time that they appeared, they told you what,

11 exactly?

12 A. I don't understand the question.

13 Q. The second time when they came to you, were they present when you

14 gave your evidence to the investigators of the ICTY?

15 A. No.

16 Q. But they took you to the location where the investigators of this

17 Tribunal were waiting for you?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Can you then tell me, they had the statement that you had given to

20 the AID?

21 A. Probably they did.

22 Q. So what questions did they ask of you?

23 A. The normal ones. I don't recall now.

24 Q. Excuse me, Witness, in your first statement, there is nothing that

25 has anything to do with this case, the evidence of today. Maybe it has

Page 4704

1 something to do with some other cases. And they had the statement you had

2 given to the AID, and they see that there's nothing that relates to this

3 case because there's no name. There's just some general things that

4 happened to you.

5 How did you arrive at Romeo Blazevic, Ernest Takac, the Convicts

6 Battalion, Cikota? How did you arrive at that?

7 A. That is what happened.

8 Q. Tell me, how did you know that Romeo Blazevic and Ernest Takac

9 were members of the Convicts Battalion? Who told you that?

10 A. This is what people were saying. That's what I said, that people

11 were saying that they were members of the Convicts Battalion.

12 Q. You only know about it from what people were saying?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And then that story you considered important enough to tell the

15 investigators?

16 A. What was important was what they did, not whose members they were

17 or members of what they were.

18 Q. I agree with what you're saying. But now you are assuming a

19 position of an experienced lawyer. Did anyone before this testimony ever

20 show you the photographs of these men?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Did anybody tell you who these men were while questioning you?

23 A. How could they if they didn't even show me the photographs?

24 Q. Witness, on that occasion, you told the investigators, "I

25 recognise Tuta by the photographs." And you used plural, the photographs

Page 4705

1 that you saw.

2 A. That is some kind of a mistake. There was only one photograph

3 extant. It may be a typo or some kind of omission.

4 Q. How did you know that the man whom you named Cikota was, indeed,

5 Cikota?

6 A. The guards told us that it was Cikota's brother, and he was

7 wearing a black ribbon of mourning. And Cikota had been killed prior to

8 that.

9 Q. So this was not Cikota, then; it was Cikota's brother?

10 A. It was always Cikota's brother. This could be some kind of

11 mistake in translation. I never said that this was Cikota.

12 Q. So the guards told you this?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And this man, was he a policeman, a civilian? What was he?

15 A. Which man?

16 Q. Cikota's brother.

17 A. I don't know. He had uniform and a black -- actually, no, it was

18 a black badge, a pin.

19 Q. And you also heard from other people that his brother had been

20 killed?

21 A. This is what people were saying around town, that Cikota was

22 killed somewhere around Jablanica even before the conflict in Mostar.

23 Q. This is what people were talking about in town -- you mean in

24 Mostar?

25 A. Yes.

Page 4706

1 Q. You mean in coffee bars, the same coffee bars where you also saw

2 Mr. Naletilic's photograph?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. The photograph that you supposedly saw in a coffee bar, a

5 photograph of Mr. Naletilic, was that a small photograph? Where was it

6 in --

7 A. It was on the wall behind the bar.

8 Q. And do you know the name of that coffee bar?

9 A. It was right next to the municipal stadium. It was called

10 Zerenski.

11 Q. And will you please describe to this Trial Chamber how Mr. Bosnjic

12 looked.

13 A. Blond, short hair, average height, shorter than I, not too

14 well-built, but it was -- he was built well enough.

15 Q. Witness, will you take me as an example. Was he taller or shorter

16 than I?

17 A. He was about your height.

18 Q. I am 173 metres [sic] tall, for the record. And he was

19 well-built?

20 A. Yes. He wasn't really built up, but he was strong.

21 Q. Witness, did you hear in town that Mr. Bosnjic lost half of his

22 head by a sniper bullet on the 10th of May?

23 A. No.

24 Q. And he was over 190 tall?

25 A. No. I did not say that that was him. I just said what the

Page 4707

1 prisoners told me based on my description who it could have been. I never

2 said that that was the man, because I did not know him.

3 Q. You stated that. You said clearly, "That was his bodyguard

4 Bosnjic." Now we hear that you had heard that from others.

5 A. It was always that way.

6 Q. Will you please look at the statement that you have in front of

7 you, the second statement before the investigators of this Tribunal, not

8 the AID. Will you turn to page 2 of that statement. The last paragraph,

9 third line. "There was his bodyguard Bosnjic." You said that expressly.

10 Do you have the same statement as I do? So this was a statement

11 to the investigators of the Tribunal. Bottom of the second page, last

12 passage, or, rather, it says -- no. It says "3." Third page, last

13 passage.

14 A. Well, on my copy it is on the fourth page.

15 Q. Well, I really don't know why is it on page 4. Perhaps you have a

16 page more than I do, and that wouldn't surprise me either. Have you found

17 it where it says that?

18 A. Yes, I have.

19 Q. So, "There was his bodyguard Bosnjic." And you still affirm that

20 he was a bodyguard? And that he was a bodyguard, you had that too?

21 A. Well, I said the same thing then as I'm saying now. I don't know

22 why is this. And I just said I described the man, because it was the

23 first time I had seen him. So I described him to some other prisoners,

24 and they told me that he was his bodyguard.

25 Q. Witness FF, are you -- do you know what you are saying? Do you

Page 4708

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 4709

1 realise the horror when you say something that you do not know and you

2 claim here that you do? Because it was on the basis of this statement

3 that the indictment -- that charges were brought. And you claim here that

4 it was his bodyguard Bosnjic.

5 A. When I gave that statement, that is not what I said. I said that

6 other prisoners had told me -- having heard my description of the man,

7 they told me that he was his bodyguard and that that was his name.

8 Q. But it does not say so in your statement, nor was your testimony

9 today such.

10 A. What do you mean?

11 Q. You said the name quite explicitly, that he was a bodyguard, and

12 when my learned friend asked you, you then came up with a broader

13 explanation. Can we therefore conclude that you have no idea who that man

14 was, if he ever struck you, that is?

15 A. I've been saying from the very beginning that it was from other

16 prisoners who told me that it could be he said so. I never affirmed that

17 it was he.

18 Q. Oh, very well. Can you then explain how is it that you know --

19 how is it that you knew that Mr. Naletilic was building a restaurant, that

20 he needed prisoners to build it?

21 A. The prisoners themselves told me so.

22 Q. Prisoners from which prison or camp or detention centre?

23 A. Those who joined us in Ljubuski and who had come from Siroki

24 Brijeg.

25 Q. Tell me, did Tuta ever visit Ljubuski?

Page 4710

1 A. I did not see him, but prisoners who did see him said that, yes,

2 he visited there.

3 Q. Do you know that no other witness said that apart from you, and

4 they also were in Ljubuski?

5 A. I do not know that.

6 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Yes, I heard your comment, my learned

7 friend, but there is this incident in the coffee bar but not the prison.

8 I know all the statements -- I know the statements by heart, my learned

9 friend. I'm talking about the Ljubuski prison.

10 Q. And you heard that too, that other people saw him. And you also

11 heard that he was building a pool. Today you said you heard it from some

12 relatively young people. What does that mean?

13 A. I didn't say it was young people who had told me. I said that he

14 took younger prisoners to build that restaurant, that pool.

15 Q. When?

16 A. What do you mean "when"?

17 Q. At what period of time?

18 A. When he was in Ljubuski you mean?

19 Q. Those younger prisoners who told you that.

20 A. I don't understand the question.

21 Q. Those prisoners that you call younger persons, when did they tell

22 you that they worked there?

23 A. When they came to Ljubuski.

24 Q. And then they stayed with you. They did not go anywhere again?

25 A. No, no, no. They came the first day to Ljubuski and then they

Page 4711

1 told us where they had come from. And they -- later, most of them went

2 back to Siroki Brijeg.

3 Q. So most of them went back to Siroki Brijeg, and they returned

4 and --

5 A. And I don't know what happened to them. They went back to Siroki

6 Brijeg.

7 JUDGE LIU: I have some difficulties here, Mr. Krsnik. Could I

8 offer some advice to the witness.

9 Witness, since you and the Defence counsel are speaking the same

10 language, please wait until the question. And you see in the mike this is

11 a red line. When you see the Defence counsel turn off that red line, you

12 begin to answer the question. Thank you.

13 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

14 Q. You see this red light here?

15 A. I do.

16 Q. Well, then, pay attention. Until I switch this off, then don't

17 speak. It is for your own safety, as we speak the same language and so we

18 forget ourselves.

19 Tell me, please, in your statement, you explicitly say, "The

20 Convicts Battalion did not harm me in any way." Is that correct?

21 A. I mean the beating. None of the members of the Convicts Battalion

22 beat me.

23 Q. And how do you know who is a member of the Convicts Battalion?

24 A. Some of them I knew by sight, but they could mostly enter without

25 any passes or anything. I mean enter the prison.

Page 4712

1 Q. So those who enter the prison without a pass, it was your

2 conclusion, then, that those were men from the Convicts Battalion. Is

3 that it?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And whom -- who is it that you knew by sight? Tell us. We don't

6 need a private session. Which members did you know by sight from before

7 who came to Ljubuski?

8 A. Well, I know those two that I already mentioned, Romeo and Takac.

9 Q. But a while ago we concluded that you did not know that; it was

10 merely your inference.

11 A. Well, I'm saying the same thing, that I knew them by sight and by

12 what I had heard from others, that they were members of the Convicts.

13 Q. My dear witness, I deeply sympathize with you and all that befell

14 you, believe me. But this is a very serious examination. So will you

15 please, when you say "I know," not to say "I know" but to say "I heard."

16 Because when you say "I know," it means "I heard." Yet, you do not know;

17 you only heard it, isn't it?

18 A. It is.

19 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Bos.

20 MR. BOS: I'm going to object to this. He says that -- he has

21 testified that he knew that he had seen these persons before in Mostar.

22 That's what he testified. He didn't know the names, but he had seen these

23 persons before. That's what he knew.

24 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Krsnik, we have to take whatever the witness’s

25 answer to the question is. If he said he knows that, we have to take it.

Page 4713

1 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it is very difficult

2 here to conduct the procedure. We're all criminal lawyers, and the

3 witnesses for the Prosecution who are offered to us, we can only conduct

4 our cross-examination on the basis of the Criminal Code and the Criminal

5 Procedure Act. We have read those statements, and we know what it's all

6 about, but we have to show it and prove it to this Court. And the

7 Prosecution could have been of help to us, and then all these things

8 wouldn't have happened, you know.

9 JUDGE LIU: Well, we understand where you are leading us to, but

10 you don't need to send a warning signal to the witness.

11 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, excuse me. With your

12 leave, I hope you understood me. I merely wanted to warn the witness that

13 giving testimony is a serious matter, and I wanted to remind him of the

14 circumstances under which all this happened because I could see that the

15 witness was very well led until my cross-examination. So I merely wanted

16 to explain it. But thank you very much for the warning. I shall try to

17 bring these things to an end.

18 Q. And let us finish all this grapevine thing. That is, tourists in

19 the prison or in Mostar, one man says something to another one and then he

20 says it was somebody to a third person, and then it reaches your ears. Is

21 that so?

22 A. Well, whether it's the fifth or the sixth. But yes, you could put

23 it that way.

24 Q. Tell me, distinguished witness, this chief of the military police,

25 Josip Marcinko, you called him the chief of the military police, didn't

Page 4714

1 you? And is that something that you know or is it something that you

2 heard again?

3 A. Oh, I know that.

4 Q. Was he the chief of the military police at the Heliodrom or of the

5 city or?

6 A. He was the chief of the military police. He was the chief of the

7 military police of the city, not the Heliodrom.

8 Q. What was he doing at Heliodrom?

9 A. I don't know. He was in Tuta's company.

10 Q. And which guards were there at the Heliodrom? Who guarded the

11 Heliodrom? Who guarded it?

12 A. Members of the military police, I guess.

13 Q. Why do you say, "I guess"? Didn't you see white belts? I see

14 that you can see all sorts of things, but you don't see who's guarding

15 you.

16 A. Well, they wore different things. They didn't have all identical

17 uniforms, nor did they all have white belts. Some of them had brown

18 belts.

19 Q. But did they have military police badges?

20 A. At times. Well, no, it varied from one man to the other.

21 Q. Witness FF, I'll show you a photograph now. It is Prosecutor's

22 Exhibit 20.2. I will then ask you to show you something.

23 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Will the usher please help me.

24 Q. Witness FF, will you please take the pointer. Now, I will ask you

25 first to -- for one, sir, establish where was the prison and where were

Page 4715

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 4716

1 the other buildings? Which building served as the prison? Would you be

2 so kind as to point at them.

3 A. I can't see very well because there are those trees here. The

4 first time I was in prison, I never left the central prison, that is, the

5 building called that. So I'm not sure of that facility. I never saw it

6 from the outside except that particular moment, but only glimpsed it

7 because I was outside for only a couple of moments.

8 Q. Thank you. Do you know how many buildings there were? We are

9 talking about the Heliodrom, about a huge thing, but here there are heaps

10 of buildings. Do you know how many constituted the prison, one or two, or

11 if you want, the camp which is called the Heliodrom here?

12 A. Well, it was comprised of this building that was called the

13 central prison, then the school building, because the Heliodrom used to be

14 the secondary air school -- air navigation school, and the gymnasium, so

15 the -- the basketball hall rather.

16 Q. So these are the three buildings; the central one, the school, and

17 the basketball hall. Is that it?

18 A. [No audible response]

19 Q. So how about other buildings, because all this is called the

20 Heliodrom, isn't it? So who was in those other buildings?

21 A. The military.

22 Q. And tell me, please, was -- were those three buildings fenced

23 off? Was there a fence around them? Did they have guards?

24 A. There was no fence around the buildings. There was an outside

25 fence. It was fenced around on the outside, around the -- its outside

Page 4717

1 perimeter because it was a military school. It was a military school, and

2 there were guards at the entrance of the buildings.

3 Q. So each one of those buildings had a guard at the entrance, I mean

4 those facilities that you called a prison, and the whole Heliodrom was

5 surrounded by fence and had its own guards. Do I understand you well?

6 A. The whole camp had a fence around it, and I think it was only the

7 main gate that they had their guards. But each one of the buildings had

8 its own guard at the front door.

9 Q. And who guarded it, that is, the Heliodrom as such and each of

10 these buildings individually?

11 A. Well, the military police, I guess.

12 Q. Now, will you please be so kind, Witness FF, to point at the

13 building in which Tuta interrogated you. I mean, this thing that you told

14 us today about.

15 A. Well, I can't really find my way around this, because I'm not sure

16 which one is the central building. I'm not really sure. I think that

17 this is the central building, this one here, and right next to it was this

18 small house. But I cannot really affirm that with certainty, because I

19 never had the opportunity to walk around the compound and thus identify

20 every building.

21 Q. Witness, what small house was it? Or let me try to help you. Was

22 it an independent house? How big was it; 150 square metres, one room, two

23 rooms?

24 A. There were several rooms in it, but I was in only one of them

25 which served as an office, and it could have been about 15, 20 square

Page 4718

1 metres large, 4 by 4 perhaps, and it is a one-storey building, but there

2 were, nevertheless, stairs leading into it.

3 Q. And apart from Mr. Marcinko, was there anyone else present there?

4 A. There was this military policeman, the guard who had escorted me

5 there into that office, and he was present there too.

6 Q. Oh, I see. See this house has nothing to do with the prison.

7 It's outside those three buildings, is it?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Now tell me, please, which was the purpose of this interrogation?

10 I mean I listened carefully to what was said. And he inquired about your

11 father. I don't understand really.

12 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Krsnik. Well, Mr. Bos.

13 MR. BOS: I would like to go into private session if we're going

14 to discuss this.

15 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I am being very careful, Your Honour,

16 and I know what I asked. For the time being, there is absolutely no risk

17 here. A question about "your father" does not mean anything, and I am

18 really mindful of the way I ask my questions. But if you insist, of

19 course we can.

20 JUDGE LIU: Well, since the direct examination was conducted in

21 the private session, in the cross-examination, we should do so, go to the

22 private session.

23 [Private session]

24 [redacted]

25

Page 4719

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [Open session]

23 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

24 Q. In your first statement --

25 JUDGE LIU: Now we are in the open session.

Page 4720

1 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

2 Q. In your first session, you mentioned mostly Ljubinje. These were

3 the positions 50 kilometres away from Mostar, on the front line facing the

4 Chetniks. In your second statement, you mention only the Santic Street,

5 and there you have a sentence, "When I worked there, I never saw anyone

6 from the Convicts Battalion."

7 Now, I ask you once again: Had you even -- if you had seen them,

8 how would you know that they came from the Convicts Battalion? First you

9 said these people were from the Convicts Battalion. Now you tell us,

10 "When I worked there, I did not see anybody from the Convicts

11 Battalion."

12 A. I said the same thing on both occasions. Ljubinje is mentioned in

13 deference -- with reference to the time when I was in Ljubuski, and that

14 is when we were taken to work on the front lines facing the Serb troops,

15 when you set off towards Svetava. And the second time, I said it was on

16 Santic Street that I did see anyone from the Convicts Battalion, except on

17 one occasion when I worked in Dr. Aleksic's house on Bulevar where this

18 ATG was, where there was the Benito Sesar, the commander about whom we

19 knew, that he was a member of the Convicts Battalion. It was an

20 independent unit, making part of.

21 Q. This is the first time you are mentioning this. You did not say

22 that in your first or your second statement. Tell me, and what was this

23 Benito Sesar's unit called?

24 A. Oh, I don't know that. It was ATG, but exact name ...

25 Q. And then you again make your conjectures, again the story goes

Page 4721

1 round, and you hear that Benito Sesar and his ATG are part of the Convicts

2 Battalion?

3 A. Well, they were all connected. Everybody knew that he was -- he

4 had to do with both Stela and Tuta.

5 Q. And how do you know that?

6 A. Well, like everybody else.

7 Q. And who said "everybody else"?

8 A. Well, that was common knowledge. They were members of the same

9 unit even before the conflict with the BH army.

10 Q. And that is another thing that you heard, or is it something that

11 you know?

12 A. Well, they were non-stop together. They went into actions

13 together.

14 Q. Who did?

15 A. Those members whom I knew. They were together in operations.

16 Q. Witness, were you ever in those actions with them?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Were you ever present when they went off into action?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Do you know which actions?

21 A. No. In the area of Mostar.

22 Q. Do you know how many; one unit, or is it the HVO, or ...

23 A. They were a unit of its own. Everybody called it the Convicts

24 Battalion, members of the Convicts Battalion. Many of them bragged about

25 being members of the Convicts Battalion.

Page 4722

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 4723

1 Q. Ha. Now we are coming to an interesting question. Those who

2 bragged about it. Did many people brag about that? "I'm Tuta's boy,

3 Stela's boy." Were there many such? Because every unit had its

4 commander, and every -- and commanders identified themselves with them and

5 that is how they called themselves; is that correct?

6 A. It is.

7 Q. Now, those who boasted, were there many such?

8 A. Not too many.

9 Q. But you know Mostar. You grew up there. You know people there,

10 don't you? Can one believe one who brags around in Mostar? You -- don't

11 you check that?

12 A. No. But the whole city spoke about those who were members of the

13 Convicts Battalion.

14 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I see that we're coming

15 to the lunch break. I shall be very, very brief after the break.

16 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. We will resume at 2.30 this afternoon.

17 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.00 p.m.

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 4724

1 --- On resuming at 2.30 p.m.

2 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik.

3 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

4 Q. Witness, in the statement that you gave to the investigators of

5 this Tribunal, on page 3 in my version, probably page 4 in yours, you said

6 that the beating of prisoners was in places where the other prisoners

7 could not see it. Is that correct?

8 A. What is this in reference to? I don't have it in front of me.

9 Q. Oh, I'm sorry. I thought that you did. The usher will assist

10 you. This is in reference to the prison in Ljubuski. In my text, it's

11 page 3. In yours, it's probably page 4. This is the statement you gave

12 to the investigators.

13 A. No, I did not see it.

14 Q. In addition to the fact that you didn't see it, you also said that

15 others could also not see it.

16 A. I don't know exactly what you're referring to.

17 Q. It's on page 3 or 4. It's the paragraph one. Did you find it?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Well, now, in addition to the fact that you couldn't see it, which

20 is what you stated, this is the second sentence: "The beatings of

21 prisoners was usually carried out in places where the other prisoners

22 could not see."

23 A. Yes. Only those who were beaten were present there.

24 Q. So the rest you could only learn from people talking about it?

25 A. Yes, from the prisoners who had been beaten.

Page 4725

1 Q. But you only mentioned four prisoners who could have personally

2 witnessed the condition of prisoners.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. So not everybody could come in contact with them.

5 A. These were the prisoners from my cell who had been beaten.

6 Q. Witness, will you please read the paragraph. You said something

7 completely different. You said that the persons who could see that were

8 those four prisoners, and you did not say that they were beaten.

9 A. I'm talking -- Jozelic was with me in the cell, and he had been

10 beaten, and the others saw him afterwards and saw his condition

11 afterwards.

12 Q. Will you tell me how many cells, how many buildings this Ljubuski

13 prison has? How big was it and where was it?

14 A. We arrived late at night in that prison in Ljubuski, so I did not

15 see exactly where the prison was located. I only know that it was near a

16 local stadium, maybe a few hundred metres from a stadium. Maybe it wasn't

17 a local stadium. Maybe it was just a sports field or something. And the

18 prison was not large. It consisted of one house, a building, one could

19 say. It was a good-sized building. And the cells were rooms in -- on the

20 ground floor, very small in size. My cell measured perhaps 2 by 3.5

21 metres, so 7 or 8 square metres in total.

22 Q. Did this building have some kind of an inner courtyard?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And the windows of the rooms in which you were staying, were they

25 looking out onto the courtyard or the street?

Page 4726

1 A. Those cells did not have windows looking out on the street, and

2 there were -- I know that there were some windows overlooking the

3 backyard, but there may have also been some windows overlooking the

4 street, but that would be in the rooms where the soldiers were staying.

5 Q. Were you able to look out through the window?

6 A. I was not in a room which had windows.

7 Q. Now, tell me, were you a member of the ABiH?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Now, why did you not mention that anywhere until today? You

10 always stated that you were a civilian.

11 A. That is not correct. I always stated that I was a member of the

12 ABiH.

13 Q. Witness, I'm going to wait for you, but will you please find a

14 place where you say that in these two statements.

15 A. Where shall I find it?

16 Q. You cannot find it because you never said it anywhere. On the

17 contrary, you said on page 1 of the statement you gave to the

18 investigators, on the third paragraph, in the middle, you said: "I was a

19 civilian, and one of my neighbours told him that." This is in reference

20 to your interrogation in the stone building. Did you find that? Go

21 ahead. Read it, please.

22 A. Yes, I did find it.

23 Q. So you see that here you claim that you were a civilian.

24 A. This was wrongly translated, and it was taken out of the context.

25 Q. Can you clarify that a bit? How do you -- how is it taken out of

Page 4727

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 4728

1 context if one says that one is a member of ABiH and then it comes that

2 it -- then it appears in the statement that one is a civilian?

3 A. I said it in order to fare easier.

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 JUDGE LIU: I think this question and answer is to be redacted.

12 You may proceed, Mr. Krsnik.

13 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Can we then move into private

14 session, please, just in case.

15 JUDGE LIU: We'll go to a private session.

16 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

17 [Private session]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 4729

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13 Page 4729 – redacted – private session.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 4730

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 4731

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [Open session]

13 JUDGE LIU: Cross-examination, Mr. Par.

14 Cross-examined by Mr. Par:

15 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Witness FF. I am Zelimir Par; I

16 am one of the Defence attorneys for Vinko Martinovic. I will ask you

17 several questions, but I would like to take you first to the incident in

18 Ljubuski. You mentioned two soldiers, Romeo Blazevic and Ernest Takac.

19 Can you tell me whether you personally saw their arrival in the prison in

20 Ljubuski?

21 A. No.

22 Q. You did not see them. Did you see them at all on that occasion,

23 during that incident, personally?

24 A. What incident? The beating of Jozelic?

25 Q. Yes.

Page 4732

1 A. No.

2 Q. So all this is secondhand, from what others said, that is, from

3 the source that you heard, from Jozelic and others; is that correct?

4 A. Yes, from what Jozelic said. And I saw them punching and kicking

5 those two journalists.

6 Q. Did Jozelic tell this to you personally, or did he tell this to

7 other people and you heard it from them?

8 A. He told everyone who was in the cell, where we were all locked up

9 together. He didn't talk to anyone in particular.

10 Q. Can you tell me, what time of day or night was it when this took

11 place?

12 A. That was late in the afternoon, perhaps early evening.

13 Q. On that occasion, did Jozelic say that they came as part of a

14 unit, or did they come on their own, sort of ...

15 A. I'm sorry, I thought that you said -- that you had asked me when

16 this happened. This happened in the late afternoon, and he told us later

17 that night what had happened.

18 Q. Yes, exactly, that is what I understood you to have said. But

19 when he told you about it, did he tell you whether Blazevic and Takac came

20 as part of a unit that arrived at around that time, or did they come on

21 their own, out of control?

22 A. He did not know himself how they got there.

23 Q. Did he perhaps say whether they were inebriated or on drugs, or

24 could he observe anything like that?

25 A. He did not mention anything of that kind.

Page 4733

1 Q. Can you tell me who was in charge of you, the prisoners, that is?

2 Who was guarding you there? Was it police? Was it army?

3 A. I assume that that was the military police from Ljubuski.

4 Q. Do you have any explanation of how those two men could enter past

5 that military police guard? Were they members of the military police or

6 how could they have entered bypassing the military police?

7 A. Prlic, who was their commander, who was a commander of the

8 Ljubuski prison, said that he could stop individual members of the HVO who

9 were coming in to beat soldiers but that he could not stop others from

10 coming in.

11 Q. Thank you. Do you know whether Jozelic complained to anyone, to

12 any of the commanders to what had happened to him, that he had been

13 attacked, that he had been beaten up? Did he ever complain? Did he ever

14 tell any of the command structure what had happened to him?

15 A. You mean in the prison? There was nothing they could do. They

16 were not in a position to help him.

17 Q. And do you know whether any of the commanders, that is, superiors

18 of Blazevic or Takac, ever learned about this incident ever?

19 A. I'm in no position to know that.

20 Q. Very well. Thank you. Let me now take you forward to the Bulevar

21 and the period when you were sent from the Heliodrom to work. Did you --

22 have you ever heard about a unit called Vinko Skrobo?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Do you know what part of the front line was held by that unit?

25 A. I heard that they held an area around Krankasa, that is, around

Page 4734

1 the infirmary.

2 Q. I'm going to show you a map, and I'm going to ask you to try to

3 orient yourself there and show us where that unit was deployed.

4 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] I'm going to ask the registry for map

5 P12.1 and have it placed on the ELMO.

6 Q. First, can you please study the map a little bit so that you can

7 orient yourself and then we'll place it on the ELMO, and I'm going to ask

8 you to mark -- to show the place which you just mentioned where that unit

9 had its zone of responsibility or where they held their positions.

10 A. It would be the area here. Approximately where mark "1" is.

11 Q. Yes. That is mark "1." Can you now, in the caption on the top

12 left corner, can you read what it says?

13 A. Yes. That is Krankasa, or that is also known as the health centre

14 or the infirmary popularly.

15 Q. Yes. Then you said that you were brought to the Rondo and that

16 the person who was in charge of you was a certain Benito Sesar. The

17 question is: Do you know to which unit you were brought there?

18 A. It was also an ATG, but I don't know the name of it.

19 Q. Have you ever heard of the Benko Penavic ATG?

20 A. Yes, I did, and that was the unit.

21 Q. Do you know where this Benko Penavic had its zone of

22 responsibility, and if you do, could you please show us on this map?

23 A. I was with them. I was at their line, section of line. So that

24 is immediately adjacent to the Krankasa but on the other side of the

25 street. I can't use my arm very well. Oh, yes. Here it is. It is

Page 4735

1 Dr. Aleksic's house.

2 Q. Do I understand you correctly that you just answered me that on

3 that occasion you worked for the Benko Penavic ATG at Aleksic's house?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Now, if we can just look at another thing on the map. You said

6 that you were -- that you disembarked at the Rondo. This is where Benito

7 Sesar waited for you. Can you please show the Rondo, where it was that

8 Rondo?

9 A. I can't see it well, but is this number 6 there?

10 Q. Yes. Can you see on -- in the -- what it says in the top left

11 corner what number 6 stands for?

12 A. That is headquarters of the Benko Penavic ATG.

13 Q. This location was also known as Peske's house. So that was the

14 Peskes' house that you mentioned as the place that you were. Thank you,

15 Witness FF.

16 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] And, Your Honours, I have no further

17 questions.

18 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Any re-examination, Mr. Bos?

19 MR. BOS: No, Your Honours. Just maybe just to -- I would like to

20 tender Exhibit P884, which is the drawing made by Witness FF.

21 JUDGE LIU: Any objections?

22 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] No objections.

23 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Mr. Krsnik?

24 MR. KRSNIK: No objections, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. This map -- yes, Mr. Par.

Page 4736

1 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] My apologies. I would like to enter the

2 map that we showed the witness. That would be P12.1.

3 JUDGE LIU: But, Mr. Krsnik, do you have any documents to tender?

4 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Yes, of course, Your Honour, but I

5 thought that we would wait. Usually we've been waiting for the end of the

6 examination, but of course I would like to tender Prosecution P11.18.

7 This is our exhibit D1/30. And the previous statements of this witness in

8 their entirety. Thank you.

9 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. The map proposed by the Prosecutor with

10 the number P884 has been admitted into evidence. Any objections to the

11 Defence counsels' tendering of the documents?

12 Mr. Bos?

13 MR. BOS: With regard to the previous statements of the witness,

14 we have the same objection as we stated before, that we don't consider

15 this as evidence.

16 JUDGE LIU: How about the other exhibit?

17 MR. BOS: On the other exhibit, there is no objection.

18 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Well, pending the decisions made by this

19 Trial Chamber concerning the previous statements, at this moment,

20 Madam Registrar will give them an ID number so that we can know where

21 these documents will be located. As for that document D1/30, it has been

22 admitted into evidence.

23 Judge Diarra has a question to ask.

24 JUDGE DIARRA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

25 Questioned by the Court:

Page 4737

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 4738

1 JUDGE DIARRA: [Interpretation] Witness, at the time of your arrest

2 at your building, was your place searched? I mean, at the time when you

3 came out of the building and surrendered, were you searched then?

4 A. In the beginning, I don't know. I don't think anybody did that

5 while we were still there, but whilst we were still in the building, I do

6 not think anybody would dare because of the very fierce fire there.

7 JUDGE DIARRA: [Interpretation] So you came out of the building

8 when the fire stopped, is that it?

9 A. We came out with a white flag in the afternoon the next day, and

10 then we were taken over by HVO men.

11 JUDGE DIARRA: [Interpretation] You spoke about labour duty on the

12 front line. Was the work that you were engaged in dangerous?

13 A. Yes, because it was on the front line itself, and we were in the

14 crossfire. I mean, there was exchange of fire. Fire was opened from both

15 sides. So there were -- it was very likely that a prisoner might be

16 wounded or killed.

17 JUDGE DIARRA: [Interpretation] You said that one could be killed

18 or wounded. Were they effectively woundings on that occasion?

19 A. Yes. Quite a number of people were wounded, and some prisoners

20 were killed too.

21 JUDGE DIARRA: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22 JUDGE LIU: Thank you, Witness, for giving evidence. When the

23 usher pulls down the blinds, he will take you out of the room.

24 [The witness withdrew]

25 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Bos, are you ready for the next witness?

Page 4739

1 MR. BOS: Yes, Your Honours. The next witness will be examined by

2 my colleague, Mr. Poriouvaev.

3 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Your Honour, I would like to start the

4 examination of our next witness with a private session. The motivation is

5 that now the witness is still occupying some position in Mostar

6 administration, and he lives in Mostar and needs to be protected.

7 JUDGE LIU: Well --

8 MR. PORIOUVAEV: My examination will go mostly to the following

9 parts of the indictment: Background, paragraphs 10, 11; Superior

10 Authority, 14, 17; General Allegations, 20, 21; Count 1, 26 through 28,

11 34(A), (B); Counts 9 through 12, paragraphs 45, 49, 50; Count 18,

12 paragraph 54.

13 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. You told us that you would like

14 to start the examination of your next witness with a private session.

15 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Yes, with a private session. I will only take

16 some minutes.

17 JUDGE LIU: I see. So there are no other protective measures for

18 the next witness?

19 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Oh, sorry, yes, yes, yes.

20 JUDGE LIU: You have to mention it.

21 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Yes, of course. The witness requested the

22 following protective measures: pseudonym and facial distortion.

23 JUDGE LIU: Any objections?

24 MR. KRSNIK: No, Your Honour, thank you.

25 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.

Page 4740

1 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. So, Mr. Prosecutor, your request for the

2 protective measures is granted.

3 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Thank you very much.

4 JUDGE LIU: We will go into a private session.

5 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Yes, just for a few minutes.

6 [The witness entered court]

7 JUDGE LIU: Good afternoon, Witness. Would you please make the

8 solemn declaration.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

10 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

11 WITNESS: WITNESS GG

12 [Witness answered through interpreter]

13 JUDGE LIU: Sit down, please.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15 JUDGE LIU: We'll go into private session.

16 [Private session]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 4741

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 4742

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13 Page 4742 – redacted – private session.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 4743

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [Open session]

4 MR. PORIOUVAEV:

5 Q. Witness, were you ever arrested during the war in 1993?

6 A. Yes, I was.

7 Q. When did it happen?

8 A. On the 9th of May, 1993.

9 Q. Can you tell us more details? What happened on that day?

10 A. Well, on the 9th of May, 1993, sometime around 5.00 in the

11 morning, my family and I were roused from sleep by intensive gunfire and

12 shelling. So we came out onto the staircase of the building we lived in.

13 All the residents were already awake by then, and nobody could understand

14 what was going on.

15 But be that as it may, after awhile - now, was it one hour or two

16 hours later, I don't know - the first news reached us, I don't even know

17 how, and perhaps I could call it a half information, semi-information,

18 that the HVO was attacking the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina. Then that was

19 confirmed around 7.00 or 8.00 in the morning, when, from the direction of

20 Balinovac, a largish group of citizens turned up. There was my mother, my

21 brother, my sister-in-law, a son of six or five, neighbours; there were

22 children too and elderly, and even a woman who could be around 80. My

23 mother was not much younger; she was around 82. These people turned up

24 and said that they had just been expelled by HVO combatants, by HVO men,

25 who told them to cross to the other side. However, they had already tried

Page 4744

1 to pass through but were turned back by other HVO men, and so they stayed

2 in that building.

3 Perhaps you will want me to tell you what they looked like.

4 Q. First of all, let's stop a little bit. What happened in your

5 area, in your building?

6 A. In our building, nothing was happening yet. We were simply in

7 suspense. We did not know what would happen to us.

8 Q. Now, those soldiers you first saw in the adjacent area or your

9 building where you lived.

10 A. When those expelled people arrived, and when we gave them some

11 footwear and some clothes so that they would be covered up, they said that

12 on their heels the HVO soldiers were coming. Then we entered our flats,

13 awaiting what would happen next.

14 After awhile, my flat and other flats were entered by two, three,

15 maybe four soldiers with rifles, with automatic rifles, pointing at me, at

16 my children, my mother; and by that time, my brother and sister-in-law had

17 already arrived, and some other neighbours from Balinovac. They told us

18 to all go out of the building, and we then did go out. There were already

19 some 15 or 20 soldiers by that time there, but they did not allow us to

20 turn around so I couldn't know the exact number.

21 Q. Did you recognise any of the soldiers that appeared in the area?

22 A. There were brothers Bajric there, Pehar called Dolma, Vinko

23 Martinovic was turning in front of the building with an automatic, and

24 there were also some others whom I mostly knew by sight only.

25 Q. But did you know all these personalities you have mentioned? I

Page 4745

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 4746

1 mean, Vinko Martinovic, brothers Bajric, and Pehar Dolma. Did you know

2 them before?

3 A. I mostly knew them by sight. We did not keep the same company.

4 Q. What can you tell the Trial Chamber about the actions that were

5 undertaken by these persons, if any?

6 A. There was intimidation. Shots were fired, threats were uttered.

7 For instance, my brother told me how he and his child, who is about five

8 or six years old, how when they came to their flat, they had woken them up

9 because they were still asleep, how they entered with their automatics,

10 pointed their rifles at them and wanted to fire them. And they treated us

11 arrogantly. They treated us just as arrogantly. Whoever was slower

12 amongst us received the blows from those soldiers either with their feet

13 or with a rifle.

14 Q. Did you see someone being beaten by anyone from the group of

15 soldiers who came to your building?

16 A. No. It would be one or two blows. Perhaps if somebody started to

17 lag behind. It was only when we started off in a column escorted by

18 soldiers towards the Velez stadium under ferocious shelling that we could

19 hear. Stela beckoned a neighbour from the neighbouring building, a

20 journalist from another building and slapped him several times, and then

21 he told him to rejoin the column, and we headed towards the stadium.

22 Q. Did any one of the HVO soldiers explain to you why you were to

23 leave your apartments and to go somewhere to be gathered and transferred?

24 A. No. No, nobody. Nobody dared. There were even some threats

25 about killings, about expulsion to Zenica. Well, we did not dare talk to

Page 4747

1 them even, because if any one of us who tried to communicate would be

2 stricken, would receive a blow either on his back or on his head.

3 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber approximately how many people were

4 gathered, I mean in the area of your building.

5 A. I'd say -- I'd say about 15 people, from what I could see, but

6 otherwise, I would have to repeat that we were not allowed to turn around

7 much and look around.

8 Q. And what about your relatives, neighbours?

9 A. They were all there. They were all there, relatives, neighbours.

10 Everybody was in this column heading for the stadium. And when I say

11 "all," I also mean my wife, my mother, my brother, my sister-in-law, my

12 two children underage, my brother's small children. We were all in this

13 column heading towards the stadium.

14 Q. Where were you taken to?

15 A. We were taken towards the Velez stadium, but before the stadium,

16 there is a building. The building, the former command of the JNA, which

17 had subsequently been turned into a university building, and that is where

18 we stopped and where women and children were separated from us.

19 Men were supposed to go on to the Velez stadium, but the trouble

20 started there when they wanted to take along my son as a man, even though

21 he had barely turned 11. They wanted to take him to the stadium. But

22 perhaps because an HVO soldier knew me by sight, we managed also to leave

23 behind my son with my daughter and my wife so that he wouldn't come to the

24 stadium with us, even though my next-door neighbour's son, who was 15 or

25 16 maybe, did go to the stadium with us as a grown-up man, as an adult.

Page 4748

1 That is, after they had separated, they took women and children apart, we

2 went on and went to the stadium and entered the pitch of the -- of Velez,

3 the soccer club.

4 Q. How long did they keep you on the stadium?

5 A. Well, quite long. Three, four, could have been five hours. I

6 remember well that it was a sunny day and that we had all burnt, that

7 there was no water. An hour or two later, somebody brought a bucket of

8 water. There was quite a large group of people being brought from all

9 over the town.

10 Q. Did you eyewitness any facts or mistreatment of detainees on the

11 Velez stadium on the 9th of May?

12 A. I did not eyewitness it at the Velez stadium, but I saw man being

13 brought to the stadium who showed signs of harassment. I can mention, for

14 instance, old Professor Badzak, a university professor, who had blood all

15 over him and was bruised. There were other people like that, but I

16 remember him. He was beaten up very badly.

17 Q. Where were you taken from the stadium?

18 A. From the stadium -- or rather, the HVO police and the Herceg-Bosna

19 police started to set up groups of about 70 men each. I think that I was

20 in the third or the fourth such group. We were taken to Varda, which is

21 an elevation, a hill above Heliodrom. That is where we were told to get

22 off the buses, and then we set off on foot to the Heliodrom camp.

23 Q. Who received you at the gate of Heliodrom detention facility?

24 A. Once again, uniformed soldiers. And when we arrived, they took

25 us, or at least my group, they took us to a building called the central

Page 4749

1 prison or something. That is a building made of some solid material with

2 bars on the windows, with a metal door. And I was locked up on the upper

3 floor of that building.

4 Q. Did you know what happened to your wife and son, brother and other

5 relatives?

6 A. I was told there that they were on the ground floor of the same

7 prison, in that same building. As we were passing by, I could see that

8 there was somebody behind those bars, and those were mostly women. And

9 later on, I had it confirmed that my whole family was right there on the

10 ground floor.

11 Q. Was the central prison the only building where prisoners were

12 kept?

13 A. No. There were hangars. This was a former airport or heliport,

14 and all these structures were used as a prison. They were all for

15 prisoners.

16 Q. And who was in charge of Heliodrom?

17 A. I cannot recall. I cannot recall the name of the prison warden.

18 Q. I'm not asking you about the names. I'm asking you just had there

19 been sort of a military body that was in charge of Heliodrom?

20 A. The Croatian Defence Council.

21 Q. And who were your guards in Heliodrom?

22 A. The HVO police and soldiers.

23 Q. Just maybe briefly about the conditions of life for prisoners of

24 Heliodrom.

25 A. I can first tell you personally about my conditions of detention.

Page 4750

1 When we were put on the upper floor, the room that we were in measured 70

2 square metres. That was written above the door. And we took a count and

3 we are 105. We had a toilet off the hallway, and there was also a metal

4 partition with a metal door. That is what we had.

5 And for the first couple of days, we received no food. Luckily,

6 we had water in that hallway, so that we used it not only to drink but

7 also instead of food.

8 So in that room, there was a little more than one-half square

9 metre per person. That I remember vividly. So I know that when I went to

10 bed, we had to put our smelly shoes - and I apologise for this - under our

11 head. And some people had to step outside and take turns, because we

12 could not all sleep in there.

13 Q. Was there any medical assistance at Heliodrom?

14 A. I don't know about that.

15 Q. Did any officials from government of Herceg-Bosna ever visit

16 Heliodrom?

17 A. That may have been five or six days later. I don't remember

18 exactly when, but I remember very well the delegation that visited

19 Heliodrom also included the then, I think, Prime Minister. Or he held

20 some very high position in the government of Herceg-Bosna. His last name

21 was Rajic. And I think that I recognised Mr. Greguric, who at that time

22 was the Croatian Prime Minister then. We also had the Minister for Social

23 Affairs or something. His name was Tadic.

24 Q. And was there a change in Heliodrom after their visits?

25 A. At the Heliodrom, the changes only occurred several days later

Page 4751

1 when the ICRC appeared, and that is when the food was brought in. And as

2 far as the visits are concerned, after the visits, they mainly promised us

3 that we would be released but nothing came of it.

4 Q. Did you eyewitness any facts of beating of prisoners by some

5 soldiers in Heliodrom?

6 A. All I could see is what I saw through the bars when people were

7 brought in or taken away. And those weren't big beatings, but there were

8 kicks and blows by rifle butts and things like that. But I recall very

9 well my first encounter at the Heliodrom. I think this was at the mess

10 hall when we started being taken there to eat, to have something to eat.

11 That mess hall was in the basement of that building.

12 In that encounter I met Fazlija Prguda. He was all swollen from

13 the beatings that he had sustained, and he said that he had been beaten

14 with some hard -- I don't know what. From either a shovel or hoe or

15 something. So he was all beaten up. That was the first time when they

16 had come for him. And I saw him at the Heliodrom. That was on the day

17 before the day when he was beaten for the second time. I also saw other

18 people around, and you could see traces of what I believe were beatings.

19 They had scars and they had hematomas and they had all kinds of things.

20 Q. Do you know to which unit did the soldiers belong who were

21 involved in the beating of prisoners?

22 A. Could you please repeat that? Who took part in it?

23 Q. Do you know who took part in the beatings of prisoners?

24 A. At the Heliodrom, I don't know what units they were, but they were

25 basically under the HVO control.

Page 4752

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 4753

1 Q. Did any other soldiers, apart from those who were guarding the

2 Heliodrom, have access to the Heliodrom?

3 A. One evening, one could hear terrible noise and argument. There

4 was even some shooting in front of the door where we were, in front and

5 under the window.

6 In the morning, when we woke up and when we established contact

7 with the more moderate ones among the police who were willing to talk to

8 us, they told us that Tuta's soldiers had come, who had been defeated

9 someplace, that they were asking to be given the keys to enter the cells.

10 This was reconfirmed to me by my wife, who also heard it where she was

11 with the women that same night.

12 Q. Did they ever take prisoners to work somewhere outside the

13 Heliodrom?

14 A. Yes, there was the first and the second group who were taken away

15 to work. That was in the early days, when there was this terrible hunger,

16 when we were not being given anything to eat. After the first and second

17 group, at the advice of the guards who had entered our cell and other

18 cells, they advised us to always find five or six volunteers because they

19 would fare better, that it was more preferable than the HVO soldiers

20 picking their own choices. So later the guards who guarded us would

21 usually designate five or six persons as volunteers to dig trenches or

22 whatever it was that they were doing. So that later on these people said

23 that, for the most part, they worked on digging trenches.

24 Q. And what happened to your relatives in Heliodrom? When were they

25 released from there?

Page 4754

1 A. With your permission, can I explain something before I was

2 released? My sister, who was not detained at the Heliodrom camp, found

3 out where we were from television, and this is how it happened: She saw

4 my children playing in front of the prison. Again, if I can just explain

5 a little bit. When some foreign or humanitarian delegations would come,

6 they would bring out the children, and 20 to 50 metres away, there would

7 be -- there would be a vehicle filled with oranges, and the children would

8 be let out to play and then they would be given these oranges or biscuits

9 and things. As soon as the delegation was gone, they would collect them

10 and take them back.

11 All this happened in front of my cell so I could see it from

12 behind the bars, through the window from where I was. And several days

13 later, I don't know exactly, women and children were released.

14 Q. Did they return to your former apartment?

15 A. Yes, they went back to the apartment.

16 Q. When were you released from the Heliodrom?

17 A. On the orders or on the suggestion of General Morillon, I was

18 released after about 15 to 20 days and I went back to my apartment. The

19 apartment was ransacked; the front door was split in two when I came back

20 to the apartment.

21 Q. Did you stay in your apartment the rest of the wartime?

22 A. [No interpretation]

23 Q. What happened?

24 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Meek.

25 MR. MEEK: Mr. President, Your Honours, the witness indicated at

Page 4755

1 the order or suggestion of a gentleman that he was released, and it did

2 not get on the transcript. Line 2. Page 85, line 2.

3 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Yes, I see it. You're right.

4 JUDGE LIU: Can you clear it up?

5 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Yes.

6 Q. Witness, you just mentioned one gentleman on whose recommendation

7 or order you were released on such occasion from the Heliodrom. Can you

8 repeat your testimony on this issue, because it is not on the transcript.

9 A technical problem.

10 A. Yes, I can. I can explain that.

11 Q. Yes.

12 A. It was not General Morillon who was the one who had me released,

13 but it was in agreement with the HVO that all the camps, including the

14 Heliodrom camps, be dissolved. I believe that it was thanks to him,

15 General Morillon, that we were released. Morillon, by the way, is spelled

16 M-o-r-i-l-l-o-n.

17 Q. Did it happen after his visit to the Heliodrom?

18 A. Yes. He was at the Heliodrom on that day. And let me clarify

19 this right away. As soon as he left, immediately interrogations started

20 and people were again sent back to the cells. I saw him coming to the

21 Heliodrom on that day, and word leaked from the guards and others that he

22 had come precisely in order to effect our release.

23 Q. You just mentioned that most of the prisoners were interrogated in

24 Heliodrom even after Morillon's visit to Heliodrom. What was the subject

25 matter of that interrogation? What did they want to know from you? What

Page 4756

1 kind of information did they want to get from you?

2 A. Well, I believe that mostly it had to do with the membership of a

3 unit, where a person lived. But that had no influence of any kind.

4 Q. Did you see any military units deployed in Heliodrom?

5 A. There were several different kinds of insignia. I know that

6 frequently Mladen Misic, I believe he was commander of the 4th Battalion;

7 through the window I saw Juka Prazina in front of the prison.

8 Q. Did you know Juka Prazina before the war?

9 A. No. I only met him sometime in 1992. I think at the time he

10 had -- he killed that young man, Kajan, in Edo Bajram's restaurant. That

11 is a place on the way to the Rondo. But let me just explain this. I did

12 not see him kill this man, but shortly thereafter I saw Juka Prazina, whom

13 I had known by sight, and they told me about him. And I don't know

14 whether he was tried for that murder or not.

15 Q. But did you see him after the war started, I mean after the 9th of

16 May, or before?

17 A. I saw him both before the 9th of May and after the 9th of May.

18 When we were at the Heliodrom, I saw him at the Heliodrom in an HVO

19 uniform.

20 Q. Now let's return to your apartment. You just explained to us that

21 you didn't stay in your apartment until the end of the war, and for some

22 reason left it. Could you explain it to the Chamber?

23 A. I was again expelled from the apartment on the 13th of June.

24 However, before that, they came for me. I think it was about twenty to

25 nine in the evening. There were six HVO soldiers. And I hid at my Croat

Page 4757

1 neighbour's place; until the 13th, I mostly hid at his place. At that

2 point, they took my car away and some belongings from my apartment.

3 Another neighbour from that building next door, who was an ethnic

4 Croat and who was in uniform, called the police. That was again the

5 Herceg-Bosna police. They came, they whispered something to each other,

6 they drove the car away, they took a few things from the house.

7 On the 13th of June, sometime in the afternoon, suddenly the

8 neighbourhood was blocked by 20 to 30 vehicles. I came out to my

9 neighbour's balcony, actually a window. At first we thought that it may

10 have something to do with the burial of the person who had allegedly

11 jumped out the window, a former manager of the AutoPrevoz. At two or

12 three in the morning, he ended up on the pavement; I don't know whether he

13 committed suicide or was thrown out the window. We thought that perhaps

14 this was the burial procession. However, what ensued was expulsion from

15 apartments.

16 Both my brother and I had hidden at my neighbour's, and I was

17 lying between the bed and the window when Ernest Takac burst in, having

18 broken through the door. He, in very insulting language, threatened the

19 neighbour and his wife, saying that they were protecting and hiding

20 balijas. They asked me -- and I hid because I had heard that they were

21 collecting men to use them as human shields, because they were going to

22 try to cross to the east bank. At my neighbour's, my wife, my children,

23 and my mother were also there, and the other members of the family were in

24 my apartment.

25 When they led them away, the column had already formed, and I told

Page 4758

1 my brother, "If they're taking them away, let's join them." So we ran out

2 and we joined them. Ernest Takac approached my brother and started

3 kicking him and hitting him with a rifle butt and other things. And then

4 we started. We started in the direction of the line of separation. We

5 all thought that we were going to be used as human shields.

6 As we were walking, those persons who led us did not allow us to

7 turn to each other and talk. They would shoot at any window where anyone

8 would try to peek out. On the way, they were collecting and rounding up

9 more people. If they were Bosniak -- they were asking questions. If

10 these people were Bosniak, they would be joined in the column and we moved

11 on until we reached the church at Semovac, which is near the line of

12 separation, and they told us, "Go over to your balijas," and we crossed

13 over. That was on the 13th of June, in the afternoon, 4.00 or 5.00 in the

14 afternoon.

15 Q. You just gave us the name of a person called Ernest Takac. Do you

16 know him before the 13th of June?

17 A. Also by sight, because he used to come to the neighbourhood in

18 uniform and in civilian clothes. And I remember - this was later, several

19 days before the expulsion - that he even wanted to shoot somebody because

20 of some apartment where a Bosnian had been expelled. And he eventually

21 moved in a colleague of his and threw out another Croat.

22 Q. Was Ernest Takac the only one whom you recognised on the 13th of

23 June as persons who were evicting people from the houses?

24 A. These were mainly the same persons who were around on the 9th of

25 May, the Bajrics and Pehar and Takac and Nargilic and some others who I

Page 4759

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 4760

1 only knew by sight and who I remembered. Pretty much the same group,

2 though.

3 Q. On the 13th of June, you were expelled from the same area as on

4 the 9th of May?

5 A. Yes, from the same apartment, in the same way. Perhaps even worse

6 than on the 9th of May.

7 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Your Honour, my direct is over.

8 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Any cross-examination?

9 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Your Honour,

10 because we only have three minutes left, may I suggest that we start

11 tomorrow? Because I don't think there is much use in starting something

12 for two or three minutes.

13 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We will resume at 9.30 tomorrow morning.

14 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3.57 p.m.,

15 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 1st day

16 of November, 2001, at 9.30 a.m.

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25