Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 5087

1 Wednesday, 7 November 2001

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.32 a.m.

6 JUDGE LIU: Call the case, please, Madam Registrar.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. This is the case number

8 IT-98-34-T, the Prosecutor versus Naletilic and Martinovic.

9 JUDGE LIU: Good morning, Witness.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

11 JUDGE LIU: Please remember that you are under solemn

12 declaration.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes..

14 WITNESS: WITNESS JJ [Resumed]

15 [Witness answered through interpreter]

16 JUDGE LIU: Any questions from the Judges? Judge Clark

17 Questioned by the Court:

18 JUDGE CLARK: Witness, yesterday you were saying very fairly that

19 it's nearly nine years since you were there and that your memory for names

20 has faded. This doesn't involve names, but I was wondering if during your

21 period of six months where you were carrying out intelligence

22 reconnaissance, did you come across the existence of any not quite

23 military units, in other words, not attached to the army, called

24 independent military units or anti-terrorist groups?

25 A. I don't remember, at least for the time being. It's very

Page 5088

1 difficult to think back. At the time, it was difficult to tell a regular

2 unit from another unit which was not regular, because everything was

3 moving. Everything was developing.

4 JUDGE CLARK: I appreciate that you said that there was an air of

5 irregularity about most affairs there at the time you were there.

6 A. Irregularity, but it proceeded --

7 THE INTERPRETER: I'm sorry. The interpreter did not understand.

8 Could --

9 A. Irregularity permeated the whole atmosphere of the place.

10 JUDGE CLARK: I appreciate that, sir. I think your answer is --

11 A. Just a second, please. I have said this applies to both groups,

12 both factions.

13 JUDGE CLARK: Both factions. I appreciate that. And I appreciate

14 that you said that everybody who had a gun considered himself a

15 policeman --

16 A. Yes.

17 JUDGE CLARK: -- and everybody seemed to be wearing some kind of a

18 uniform.

19 A. Yes.

20 JUDGE CLARK: But you didn't come across any independently

21 financed or private groups or anything like that?

22 A. I did not have access to that type of information.

23 JUDGE CLARK: Thank you very much.

24 JUDGE LIU: Any questions out of Judge Clark's questions?

25 MR. PORIOUVAEV: I have no further questions.

Page 5089

1 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

2 MR. MEEK: No, Your Honours, I have none.

3 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

4 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. President, Your

5 Honours. I do not have any questions.

6 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

7 Witness, thank you very much for helping us by giving your

8 evidence. When the usher pulls down the blinds, he will take you out of

9 the room.

10 We also would like to thank the Spanish interpreters for your

11 valuable help.

12 [The witness withdrew]

13 JUDGE LIU: At this stage, are there any documents to tender?

14 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Yes, Your Honour. I would like to tender the

15 following documents: Exhibit 325, 352, 375, 361, 363, 374, 383 --

16 JUDGE LIU: Wait.

17 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Sorry. I apologise.

18 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

19 MR. PORIOUVAEV: 383, 385, 401, 405, 407, 423, 461, 474, 476, 502,

20 508, 523, 538, 570, 595.1 --

21 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Meek.

22 MR. MEEK: Would Mr. Prosecutor perhaps go through those one more

23 time. The very first four, five, or six I didn't catch. I'm sorry.

24 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Thank you very much. I apologise.

25 JUDGE LIU: After this sitting, you might provide us with a list

Page 5090

1 listing all those numbers so that we could, you know, have a clear picture

2 of the whole documents you are going to tender.

3 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Yes, no problem. I've got. But I should make

4 one remark, then, because Exhibit 2 is also indicated on this list, but it

5 has already been tendered through Jan Van Hecke.

6 JUDGE LIU: Sure.

7 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Then my second remark will be that actually most

8 of the mentioned documents have already been tendered through Jan

9 Van Hecke, but so far we don't have any decision, whether positive or

10 negative, if the documents have been accepted. So -- but we have also

11 three documents. This is Exhibits 508, 595.1, 612, that have never been

12 tendered before.

13 JUDGE LIU: I believe that this time, you only have to tender

14 those that haven't been tendered before, because we already have the

15 record of the previous documents tendered by Mr. Van Hecke during his

16 testimony.

17 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Thank you very much. But I would like to be on

18 the safe side.

19 JUDGE LIU: Okay. Would you please repeat all those numbers once

20 again, because both the Madam Registrar and the Defence counsel have some

21 difficulty to follow you.

22 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Okay. 325, 352, 357, 361, 363, 374, 383, 385,

23 401, 405, 407, 423, 461, 474, 476, 502, 508, 523, 538, 570, 595.1, 612.

24 All these documents have been examined during my direct examination and

25 redirect examination.

Page 5091

1 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

2 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Thank you very much.

3 JUDGE LIU: Any objections?

4 MR. MEEK: Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours. Some of

5 these documents, it is correct, we have addressed in an earlier motion,

6 and some were tendered through Mr. Van Hecke. I see now that through this

7 witness, there has been further foundation laid; however, this is, again,

8 a batch of documents coming in. We would request the time to specifically

9 raise objections to the documents that we will object to further, and with

10 further grounds for the objections. There are some documents that this

11 witness just testified, JJ, that he could vouch for the high credibility

12 of those. Others, he could not. So we would ask for the 30 days.

13 My next concern, Your Honours, is very important. And that is,

14 because of a prior ruling of this Trial Chamber that all documents to be

15 introduced against our clients would be rendered in a language of their

16 native tongue, a language they can understand and read, none of these

17 documents have been so interpreted into the language that we -- our client

18 can read, understand, to try to help in his own defence and let us know

19 his thoughts. So that's a problem. That's a concern we, again, raise.

20 We would, again, ask for the 30 days, because it's a batch of documents.

21 And I understand, Your Honours, Mr. President, the Trial Chamber's ruling,

22 if it's an individual document, we have seven days.

23 Once we can sit down and review these documents with the testimony

24 of JJ, we will then, within the previous order of the Court, the 30-day

25 time period, in writing, tell the Trial Chamber which documents we object

Page 5092

1 to and which ones we do not. Whichever ones we do not object to or

2 whichever ones the Trial Chamber in its wisdom determines should be

3 admissible, we would just remind and ask the Trial Chamber to accept those

4 and give them whatever weight you feel necessary given the testimony of JJ

5 and the credibility of the various documents. Thank you very much.

6 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Mr. Seric?

7 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, in our part of the

8 case, we shall set out to prove that most of these documents have no

9 probative value, and we shall be in a position to know more about that

10 when we consult our client after all these documents are translated. So

11 at this particular point in time, do I not have any objection to the

12 production of these -- to the tendering of this evidence.

13 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. Mr. Scott. Are you going to

14 inform us about the translation?

15 MR. SCOTT: I'd like to address, Your Honour, several outstanding

16 document-related issues. I think the time has come when we must clarify

17 some situations here, because I do -- I do have concerns, on behalf of the

18 Prosecution, as to where we are going with this.

19 Let me be clear. Before the trial started, we provided to the

20 Defence and to the Chamber approximately 17 binders of documents. This is

21 now going on two months ago. There should be no question or doubt it is

22 our view and it is our plan before the Prosecution case is over to tender

23 virtually all of those documents, and in fact, a substantial number of

24 them have now -- by now have been tendered. Substantially more, if we

25 have time, will be tendered in the next -- today, perhaps and in the next

Page 5093

1 couple of days.

2 There should be no question about that, and the Defence should not

3 have any different understanding. They will have to review and should

4 be -- have been in the process of reviewing the 17 binders, which that is

5 one of the reasons they were provided to them approximately two months

6 ago.

7 We are concerned about the rulings on the exhibits in the case.

8 We appreciate the fact that there are a large number of documents.

9 However, I think the Chamber -- I hope the Chamber will understand that we

10 will not be in a position to rest the Prosecution case until there is a

11 final ruling on the Prosecution exhibits. Let me give the Chamber an

12 example of that.

13 If whatever reason the Chamber were to come back and say that some

14 particular documents lacked foundation, we would certainly seek a further

15 opportunity to address that and to provide the Chamber with additional

16 foundations for documents. We certainly -- we can't be in a position to

17 do that until the Chamber has expressed at least its preliminary ruling.

18 We are at a point in the case -- we hope to finish the Prosecution

19 case, with a little bit of luck and good fortune, we would like -- hope to

20 finish the Prosecution case by the 11th of December. Now, it only takes

21 fairly short math that that is just about 30 days from now. So if the

22 situation is that the Defence is given 30 days to respond, we will quickly

23 be at a point where they will not be responding until after the

24 Prosecution has finished its case. And then that puts us in a bind, Your

25 Honour.

Page 5094

1 So I'm just telling the Chamber, the Prosecution will not be in a

2 position to rest its case, and subject to the court orders, we will not

3 rest our case until there is a final ruling on all the exhibits so that we

4 have a fair opportunity to respond to any deficiencies perceived by the

5 Chamber in the documents.

6 Concerning the translations, Your Honour, we are very aware of the

7 Chamber's ruling. Quite candidly - I don't think I'm giving away any big

8 secrets if I say this - we were quite surprised by the Chamber's ruling.

9 We believe it's a completely -- changes the rules of the game contrary to

10 the practices of the Tribunal, after the game, might I add, had already

11 started. This had never been required before. It had never been required

12 during the pre-trial phases of the case when Judge Wald was the Pre-Trial

13 Judge. So we are doing our best that we can to respond.

14 It may be months before those translations are available. It's

15 our prediction that there are some perhaps 1.000 pages that will require

16 translation. The Translation Unit tells me that one translator can be --

17 can do approximately five pages a day.

18 Now, obviously we have to compete with every other case. There

19 are other cases set to commence trial in the next few weeks and months.

20 The Galic case begins very soon. They have a large number of documents

21 with translations outstanding. The Milosevic cases have a large number of

22 documents. Every case, every case has a large number of documents

23 outstanding. So it's not just the Tuta and Stela case.

24 I have asked the Translation Unit to give our documents as much

25 priority as they can, but we compete with very, very limited translation

Page 5095

1 resources to obtain these translations. I have asked the Translation Unit

2 to give me an estimate of when they believe all of these documents could

3 be translated. So far, they have not given me a response, but it's easy

4 to see that it could easily take several months for these translations to

5 be provided.

6 That's the situation we're in, Your Honour. Again, we're doing

7 our best to respond to the Court's ruling. And the Court's ruling was

8 that any documents tendered after the 17th - I'll get my date's straight

9 here - the 12th of November would have to be tendered together with the

10 B/C/S translation. The Chamber's ruling did not establish that

11 requirement prior to the 12th of November, and to respond to some of the

12 comments that the counsel has made just now, we have not been required up

13 to this point in time to tender our documents with the B/C/S translations

14 in place. So that's not been a requirement, and we have not done so,

15 except that we have undertaken steps to have the translations made as

16 quickly as possible. I'll be happy to provide the Chamber with my

17 correspondence to the Translation Unit if that will assist you, but so far

18 they have not given me any prediction as to when they can finish. There's

19 approximately 312 documents that have to be translated, comprising at

20 least, at least a thousand pages of documents, perhaps quite -- perhaps

21 substantially more.

22 Thank you, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE LIU: Well -- yes, Mr. Meek.

24 MR. MEEK: Mr. President, Your Honours, I sit here and I listen to

25 my colleague Mr. Scott basically complain about this Trial Chamber's

Page 5096

1 previous ruling.

2 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President. I'm sorry to interrupt, but I object

3 to that.

4 MR. MEEK: Okay. I take it back. His concerns. Your Honour --

5 MR. SCOTT: Excuse me, Mr. Meek.

6 Mr. President, you were consulting with Judge Clark. I want this

7 to be very clear. I object strongly to that characterisation. I did not

8 complain about the Chamber's ruling. I did express candidly and I think

9 with respect the concerns raised and that we are taking every step

10 possible to address the Chamber's ruling. But it is unfair to say that I

11 am complaining about the Chamber's ruling. I have not done so. I have

12 candidly advised the Chamber of the situation that we find ourselves in.

13 Thank you.

14 JUDGE LIU: Thank you, let me hear what Mr. Meek is going to tell

15 us.

16 MR. MEEK: Mr. President, Your Honours, I certainly apologise to

17 Mr. Scott. He is raising concerns now over a ruling that the Trial

18 Chamber made some weeks ago. He has been in this Tribunal longer than any

19 of us, and he understands the rules. If he did not like the Trial

20 Chamber's ruling, he had a right to ask for an interlocutory appeal. He

21 did not do that. Apparently, it's my understanding from reading cases,

22 there is no such practice as a motion to reconsider. I understand the

23 problems that the Prosecutor is confronted with; but frankly, when it

24 comes to problems that the Prosecution office is confronted with when

25 weighed against the right to a fundamentally fair trial to these accused

Page 5097

1 who stand accused of very serious war crimes by definition or they would

2 not be sitting in this Trial Chamber today, I think that the concern is

3 minimal.

4 I also see that the Trial Chamber made a ruling that documents

5 tendered after the 12th of November which allows a window of opportunity

6 for the Prosecution to come in before that time and tender massive amounts

7 of documents so that they do not have to be translated, thereby skirting

8 the intentions, the good intentions and good ruling, this Trial Chamber

9 made in regards to translation of documents. And that's the position we

10 find ourselves in. Thank you.

11 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. After hearing from the -- yes, Mr. Seric.

12 I'm sorry, I didn't see you.

13 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. President. I

14 should like to refer to what you said on the 18th of October this year,

15 Mr. President, when you said that correctness should take precedence over

16 efficiency. We have that recorded in the transcript.

17 JUDGE LIU: Thank you, Mr. Seric, for reminding me of what I have

18 said. I think up to now we are facing some problems with the documents.

19 We understand after about five weeks' sitting, there are piles of

20 documents waiting for a decision before this Trial Chamber. And this

21 Trial Chamber had a meeting yesterday concerning the admission of all the

22 documents, and we will make some decisions about some of the documents

23 that were tendered by the Prosecutor in the past few weeks.

24 As for the documents tendered today by the Prosecutor, I think

25 only three documents that are new, and the others were already tendered by

Page 5098

1 Mr. Van Hecke during his testimony. And those three documents, namely,

2 508, 595.1, 612, are not so complicated documents. We would like to know

3 whether these three documents have their B/C/S translations at this

4 stage. Mr. Prosecutor?

5 MR. PORIOUVAEV: I will check it, Your Honour.

6 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

7 MR. PORIOUVAEV: I will check it, Your Honour. At least, yes, one

8 of these documents has been translated into B/C/S, and I will give you the

9 number of this document. Yes, this is Exhibit 595.1. And I would add

10 that 59 documents, SpaBat documents, had been submitted to the Defence

11 before in B/C/S translation. It was made on our own initiative, when we

12 had some time and the translation unit had some time. So it was our

13 pleasure, maybe, at that time.

14 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

15 So as for those documents that have been translated into B/C/S,

16 namely, the three documents, Mr. Meek, I don't believe you will have

17 30 days to submit your response. We will give you seven days for these

18 three documents for your response. And this Trial Chamber will soon make

19 decisions concerning all the documents tendered by the Prosecutor.

20 And also, this Chamber has some questions to ask. Judge Clark.

21 JUDGE CLARK: Mr. Scott, I think I must confess that the reason

22 why there has been such a delay in a decision in relation to the documents

23 on my difficulties, which have been attributed to the background that I

24 come from, not dissimilar to yours, my difficulties in appreciating what

25 exactly this Trial Chamber means by the "word" tender. It apparently has

Page 5099

1 a different meaning in The Hague to the ordinary English meaning.

2 But the difficulty I have that's arising now is a new difficulty.

3 On the first few days of the trial, in fact, it might have been the first

4 and second day of the trial, because I was just scanning the transcript

5 yesterday, there was an objection made to the furnishing of those

6 17 binders on the Defence within a relatively short period before the

7 trial commenced. And my understanding of the debate which took place was

8 that you said -- maybe I led you to say that -- but you said that those

9 documents, binders, the documents in the binders were being proffered, as

10 a neutral word, to the Court and to the Defence to ease the trial, to oil

11 the wheels of the trial so that if a document was called for which would

12 become an exhibit, that we would have access to them.

13 I understood that they were the Prosecution's response to the

14 failure -- or maybe that's too strong a word -- the choice, the choice

15 that the Defence made not to seek disclosure, and that they were

16 disclosure. Am I correct in understanding you now to say that, in fact,

17 those documents are now all going to become exhibits?

18 MR. SCOTT: Let me try to give a full response, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE CLARK: Do you understand where I'm coming from?

20 MR. SCOTT: Yes, I think I do. As I say, let me try to give as

21 full a response to Your Honour as I can. I agree with Your Honour

22 completely that I think the two of us share, certainly not an identical

23 legal background, but I think a quite similar one. And admittedly, the

24 way that some documents and exhibits are handled at the Tribunal, I

25 suspect, are different than they are in Ireland and in the United States.

Page 5100

1 But that is one of the cultural differences we have here. And with all

2 respect, I think all of us come here, lawyers, judges, and everyone else,

3 and we have to adjust to the way the business is done here, hopefully

4 rightly and fairly, and with due regard to the rights of the accused,

5 which the Prosecution certainly supports and shouldn't be viewed as

6 otherwise.

7 It was, Your Honour -- Judge Clark, you were right. It was

8 initially -- those documents, 17 binders, were initially provided to the

9 Chamber and to the Defence as essentially advance disclosure, if I can put

10 it that way, of the exhibits which we would tender at trial. It has

11 always been our intention. And if I was not as clear on that as I should

12 have been, then I apologise. It has always been our intention to tender

13 the vast majority of those documents into evidence. But what we did

14 indicate at the beginning of the trial was rather than tender them as we

15 went, literally day by day, which it is our position we would have been

16 entitled to do under the regime of this Tribunal, and the fact the Defence

17 had not made a request for advance disclosure of documents, we didn't do

18 that. We thought that would slow down the trial, undoubtedly raise

19 complaints by the Defence that they had not seen the documents before. So

20 to address those concerns, we provided these binders to everyone before

21 the trial began.

22 It is our intent, and we're moving in the direction of tendering

23 most of those documents and exhibits. I agree with Your Honour that the

24 terminology we use sometimes is not precise. They were provided to the

25 Court and counsel initially, if you will, as a matter of disclosure -

Page 5101

1 "proffer," as you say might be a more neutral word - but they were

2 provided as disclosure. As the trial has progressed, I guess the next

3 stage -- second step is to tender, offer - where I come from, we would

4 probably say "offer" - the exhibits to the Chamber as evidence.

5 We are now at a point where there is a substantial number of the

6 documents, and 17 binders, I think, have been tendered or offered to the

7 Court. More will be. And of course, then it is up to the Chamber to rule

8 on the admission of the exhibits.

9 I hope that answers your questions, Judge Clark.

10 JUDGE CLARK: Are you saying then, Mr. Scott, that these 17

11 binders will be the source from which you will extract the documents which

12 will then become exhibits?

13 MR. SCOTT: I would say, Your Honour, that they are the source of

14 probably 90 per cent plus of the exhibits that we will tender in the

15 course of our trial. The reason I qualify that, again to be perfectly

16 transparent, is that there have indeed been some additional documents that

17 have come to our attention since the trial began, a document that a

18 witness brings with them to The Hague that we've never seen before. A

19 document comes to us still from Zagreb.

20 JUDGE CLARK: Late disclosure.

21 MR. SCOTT: So we are tendering those as we go. So I do not want

22 to misunderstand -- anyone to misunderstand that every exhibit we have

23 tendered was in those 17 binders before we began. There are a few

24 exceptions, but I would say they're rather limited. So most are coming

25 from the 17 binders. So think that part answers your question.

Page 5102

1 The second part is, yes, it is our intention to offer the vast

2 majority, and again I would say more than 90 per cent of the documents in

3 those 17 binders, as exhibits. And in fact, I think we are very

4 substantially on the way to doing that with the testimony of

5 Mr. Van Hecke, with the testimony of Mr. Prlic. And we're going to tender

6 a witness today on the international armed conflict binders, which is two

7 binders, and we may in fact call another witness before the end of the

8 week to tender additional collections of documents.

9 There are also on our exhibit lists a substantial number of

10 exhibits which were admitted in other cases in connection with the

11 transcripts of testimony that the Chamber -- this Chamber has admitted

12 from the other cases. There are approximately now, I think, about ten

13 transcripts from either the Blaskic case or the Kordic case which this

14 Chamber has ruled -- has admitted. They stand admitted. Not tendered,

15 admitted. With those testimonies come a large number of exhibits.

16 For instance, a senior ECMM official, Mr. Brix Andersen, testified

17 in the Kordic case, and with his testimony went something like, off the

18 top of my head, probably at least 80 ECMM documents, ECMM reports. Those

19 have all been admitted. They were admitted when the Court ruled on his

20 transcript. That's 80 ECMM documents right there.

21 So there are a substantial number of documents. That's why I--

22 excuse me. That's why I say to the Chamber that if an accounting is made,

23 a very substantial majority of the document in the 17 binders have in fact

24 been tendered at this date. And again I respectfully submit that by

25 hopefully in the next few days even more will be tendered.

Page 5103

1 So we are well on our way to having tendered the vast majority of

2 the 17 binders of documents and that is our intent.

3 JUDGE CLARK: Will there be any significant numbers of documents

4 in the 17 binders which will not be dealt with by a witness? Apart from

5 the ones on which there's been a legal ruling.

6 MR. SCOTT: There may -- yes. There will be some -- when you say

7 "witness," there will and witnesses, for instance, a witness like

8 Mr. Prlic, who tenders a collection of documents.

9 JUDGE CLARK: Yes. He gave us the provenance --

10 MR. SCOTT: That's right.

11 JUDGE CLARK: -- and how the documents were put together.

12 MR. SCOTT: They will not -- I would not want to mislead the

13 Chamber to say that there will be a large number of individual fact

14 witnesses, if I can use that terminology, through which all these exhibits

15 will be tendered. The reality is on that point, if I can -- if this

16 addresses part of your concern, Judge Clark, perhaps it doesn't, but

17 I'll -- it may, the reality is, Your Honour, that many of these HVO

18 documents, for instance, were of course prepared by HVO soldiers and

19 officers and junior officers who prepared these kinds of documents.

20 Candidly, those witnesses are not available to us.

21 JUDGE CLARK: I'm not suggesting that.

22 MR. SCOTT: You may not be suggesting that, but that's the

23 realities and again why the practices of this Tribunal differ from many

24 national systems. Frankly, we do not have the same tools here. I come

25 from a system where I have vastly and superior and more forceful tools to

Page 5104

1 obtain evidence, in the United States, as Mr. Meek will be familiar with.

2 I have do not have those tools available to me here. I cannot obtain the

3 presence of a number of these witnesses. They simply will not come. And

4 if they come, in all respect, I wouldn't -- I'll leave it at that.

5 That's all we can do, Your Honour. But, yes, we are going to

6 tender virtually all the exhibits.

7 JUDGE CLARK: What I really wanted to know, Mr. Scott, was will

8 there be a bundle of documents which remain unaccounted for, where the

9 provenance and the nexus to the case is not indicated by oral testimony?

10 MR. SCOTT: No, Your Honour, I don't believe so.

11 JUDGE CLARK: That is my major concern, and I'm --

12 MR. SCOTT: No. I believe, Your Honour -- and if we fail to do

13 so, it's because we tried and failed. But our effort will be to provide

14 some provenance as to every document that's tendered to the Chamber in the

15 way that we have been attempting to do. So it's not just --

16 JUDGE CLARK: A temporal nexus.

17 MR. SCOTT: The -- I'm sure what -- I'm sorry, Your Honour. I

18 don't know what you mean by that, a temporal nexus.

19 JUDGE CLARK: In other words, that those documents relate to the

20 events in time.

21 MR. SCOTT: Oh, of course. Yes. Well, I think on those, many of

22 them, of course, will speak -- as we've been hearing for the last couple

23 of days, will speak for themselves. If you have an HVO document that

24 reports on an attack on the 17th of April, 1993, and the provenance of the

25 document has already been -- has been shown, then I would submit that the

Page 5105

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 5106

1 document, on its face, is at least relevant, and the Chamber will have to

2 give it what weight it determines.

3 JUDGE CLARK: Well, I feel reassured greatly by what you say.

4 MR. SCOTT: Thank, Your Honour. I hope I have. Thank you.

5 JUDGE LIU: Well, it seems to me that this can turn into a kind of

6 procedure debate on certain issues, but I will give you the floor,

7 Mr. Meek.

8 MR. MEEK: Thank you, Mr. President. And thank you, Judge Clark,

9 for asking this question, because the system I come from, "tender" we do

10 use. We ask that an item or exhibit be admitted into evidence. So when

11 this trial started, I was under a little bit of confusion, like

12 Judge Clark was, as to what the Prosecution was doing tendering -- what he

13 meant by "tendering." Then I believe that the tendering was, just as

14 Mr. Scott said, that they would be available, and as witnesses came to

15 testify, then when the foundation was laid, or proper foundation as far as

16 this Prosecutor believed, then they would ask for admission of those

17 documents. And I'm glad Judge Clark brought this question up.

18 Am I to understand then that when this Prosecution tenders these

19 documents he's asking that they be admitted at that moment, or is he just

20 saying they're tendered now but at a later stage, after we have

21 foundational evidence that we believe sufficient, we'll ask for the

22 admission of the document or documents?

23 I just want to be clear, and I think maybe that's one of the

24 reasons I earlier filed for a Status Conference and got denied, but -- and

25 I don't want to take up the Court's time today, but is that correct? Am I

Page 5107

1 correct in that assessment? That's all I need to know.

2 JUDGE LIU: Well, there's one thing I would like to correct you,

3 that you said that a Status Conference motion has been denied.

4 MR. MEEK: I apologise.

5 JUDGE LIU: Well, we're inviting both parties to submit to us a

6 list of what you are going to talk about during our procedure meeting,

7 because the procedure meeting, we are still waiting for the response from

8 both parties. It seems to me the debate we are having now should fit in

9 that procedure meeting rather than the real trial.

10 MR. MEEK: Thank you, and I apologise. Initially, initially

11 denied.

12 JUDGE LIU: At this stage, are there any documents the Defence

13 counsel is going to tender through this witness?

14 MR. MEEK: Yes, Your Honour. We would ask that D1/32 be

15 admitted -- tendered and admitted into evidence.

16 JUDGE LIU: Any objections?

17 MR. PORIOUVAEV: No objections.

18 JUDGE LIU: Is this document going to be under seal?

19 MR. MEEK: No, Your Honours. I don't believe so.

20 JUDGE LIU: Well, so this document has been admitted.

21 We will have about -- yes, Mr. Par.

22 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honour, but I would

23 like leave to ask a procedural question very briefly, as I'm afraid I will

24 not have another chance to do so. It has to do with the way in which

25 witnesses are being examined. My question is linked to the method of

Page 5108

1 direct examination of witnesses with respect to events that are not

2 covered by the indictment.

3 We have had two different situations in that regard. If I

4 understood correctly the position of the Chamber, when Witness HH was

5 being examined, the Prosecutor was not allowed to question the witness

6 about events outside the scope of the indictment. However, when it came

7 to Witness II, the witness was allowed to comment on events which were

8 outside the scope of the indictment, but the Chamber said that they would

9 judge what weight they would give to that part of the testimony. I should

10 like to ask the Chamber if they would be so kind as to tell us what their

11 position is. Is it the position of the Chamber that the Prosecutor in the

12 examination-in-chief has no right to examine the witness about events

13 which are not within the scope of the indictment. If that were so, then

14 we would avoid repeated objections on those grounds. So as not to waste

15 any more time, could you please assist me so that we can be guided by your

16 advice, and we can avoid objections along those lines. Thank you.

17 JUDGE LIU: Mr. -- yes, Mr. Scott.

18 MR. SCOTT: Sorry, Mr. President. I'm sorry to interrupt you. I

19 apologise.

20 Your Honour, I think this issue, I suspect, is going to be more

21 than a two-minute issue, and we would want to make a full response to this

22 because we do have our own concerns about this. However, I must advise

23 the Chamber, and I do think the document discussion - for me at least -

24 has been helpful. I have a witness that can only testify today, and if we

25 do not finish him this afternoon, he will not be in the Hague the next two

Page 5109

1 days. And respectfully, I agree with Mr. Par, that we must have this

2 discussion apparently, but if we could proceed with the witnesses and then

3 postpone that discussion, Mr. President, I would greatly appreciate it.

4 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. This is just what I want to say

5 at this moment. I think the subject brought up by Mr. Par should be also

6 a subject which should be dealt with during the procedural meetings or

7 administrative meetings at a later stage.

8 We need to have some equipment installed for the next witness. So

9 we will have a break about ten minutes. We will resume at 10.30.

10 --- Break taken at 10.17 a.m.

11 --- On resuming at 10.35 a.m.

12 [Witness entered court]

13 JUDGE LIU: Good morning, Witness.

14 WITNESS: WITNESS II [Resumed]

15 [Witness answered through interpreter]

16 JUDGE LIU: Please remember that you are still under the solemn

17 declaration.

18 Now the cross-examination. Could we give the floor to Mr. Seric

19 this time first.

20 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours, for this

21 privilege.

22 Cross-examined by Mr. Seric:

23 Q. [Interpretation] I am counsel Branko Seric, and I am counsel for

24 the accused Vinko Martinovic.

25 When you think back to all the events in 1993 that you spoke about

Page 5110

1 in your testimony, could we agree that you arrived at the Heliodrom on the

2 21st of July; then after three days you went to Bakina Luka to work, and

3 then after that, they brought you to Vinko Martinovic to work on the 24th

4 of July. Would that be correct?

5 JUDGE LIU: Your mic ...

6 A. It's about two or three days.

7 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. You said they were put up at the headquarters near Rondo. Do you

9 remember which was the vehicle that you were brought to and from work?

10 A. Blue vehicle, a blue truck. Was it Deutz or FAP, I wouldn't know

11 the make exactly, but it was blue.

12 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness speak up, please.

13 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Do you remember the size of it? Was it a truck or a van? Was it

15 open or closed?

16 A. An open truck with -- an open truck, medium sized, not too big,

17 about -- not more than 10 tonnes, but it was much larger than a van.

18 Q. And how many of you would board it?

19 A. Twenty to thirty men. It varied.

20 Q. And where did you sit?

21 A. We sat in the back.

22 Q. And who came to fetch you?

23 A. Dinko.

24 Q. Could you tell me, was that organised, I mean this whole procedure

25 about your travelling to and from work?

Page 5111

1 A. Our names were taken down whenever we left the Heliodrom and

2 whenever we returned from the Heliodrom.

3 Q. Could you describe the building which housed the commander of the

4 Mrmak ATG.

5 A. There was a cellar there, and there was the ground floor and

6 one -- and the first floor.

7 Q. Could you tell us how many rooms were there in the cellar on the

8 ground floor or on the first floor?

9 A. In the cellar, I'm aware -- that is, I'm sure about two rooms down

10 there. On the ground floor, three, and the WC; and on the upper floor,

11 there was an ante room that I'm aware of, that I know about.

12 Q. Could you tell us, how high were the windows on the ground floor,

13 I mean above the ground?

14 A. Well, about 80 centimetres, metre from the floor.

15 Q. And from the surroundings of the building?

16 A. They were higher, because one could also see the cellar windows,

17 so let's say about 2 metres.

18 Q. Could you describe the surroundings of the building? Was it a

19 building standing by itself, or were there some other buildings around it?

20 A. It had a garage.

21 Q. Where was that?

22 A. As you enter the building, to the left of it.

23 Q. That is, to the left from the main entrance?

24 A. That's right.

25 Q. Was it a building standing on its own, or was it part of the

Page 5112

1 building?

2 A. It was a part of the building.

3 Q. Will you please pause between question and answer. I don't have

4 time to switch off my microphone.

5 A. My apologies.

6 Q. Tell me, did Vinko Martinovic own a coffee bar nearby?

7 A. I wouldn't know.

8 Q. Tell me, were you personally taken to work and taken from work

9 every day, that is, taken out in the morning and brought back in the

10 evening?

11 A. For about two months.

12 Q. Did it ever happen that you spent the night in the command?

13 A. Once, a couple of nights.

14 Q. And could you tell us where you slept?

15 A. On the upper floor.

16 Q. Will you describe that room.

17 A. It was a rather large room from which -- in which a few of us

18 slept.

19 Q. Were there any beds, furniture?

20 A. There were two sofas in that room. I slept in a sleeping bag on a

21 sponge.

22 Q. Could you use the toilet which was there on the floor?

23 A. Yes. Rather, as a matter of fact, I'm not sure there were any

24 such facilities on the first floor, but I could normally use the other

25 toilet, and I did.

Page 5113

1 Q. Were your movements around the building restricted in any way?

2 A. You mean in daytime?

3 Q. At any time.

4 A. Well, at night I did not move around because I was in that room,

5 and in daytime, I moved around the building.

6 Q. But could you go to the toilet whenever? Please wait until I

7 finish and switch off.

8 A. Yes, I could do that.

9 Q. And were there any guards either in the passages or in rooms or

10 anywhere?

11 A. No. There was usually somebody in front of the building. No,

12 there were none in the passage.

13 Q. So you had full freedom of movement, and you could use everything

14 that was in the building?

15 A. As for these rooms inside, that's true, but I didn't quite

16 understand what you are driving at.

17 Q. You mentioned that you once brought some hand grenades in. Does

18 that mean that you also handled normally ammunition and weapons?

19 A. No. I only once brought them from the vehicle, which -- into the

20 building, that was all.

21 Q. Did you have other weapons handy, within your reach?

22 A. Well, hardly. Well, I could see weapons, but there were always

23 other people there.

24 Q. Were those weapons guarded in any special way?

25 A. No, but they there would be a rifle or two belonging to men who

Page 5114

1 were there.

2 Q. Tell us, you did anyone supervise and guard you all the time, in

3 the morning, day, night, 24 hours a day?

4 A. I don't think so. I didn't see them.

5 Q. Thank you. Did Vinko Martinovic offer you a flat in the

6 vicinity?

7 A. No.

8 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, could we go into a

9 private session for one question?

10 JUDGE LIU: We will go into the private session.

11 [Private session]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 5115

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13 Page 5115 redacted private session.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 5116

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13 Page 5116 redacted private session.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 5117

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [Open session]

19 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Can you recognise this place on the photograph?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Will you now take the pointer, please, and show where were you

23 exactly? Because you drew something.

24 A. I would come to this corner here. I would also go here. This

25 here was all blocked with sandbags or bags filled with earth, across this

Page 5118

1 street here. Then I also went to the health centre, and I'd come to the

2 corner of this building. And I also went to this -- it could be this

3 house.

4 Q. Can you point exactly the direction of your movements?

5 A. I would be coming from here, then moving here. Then we would walk

6 through the health centre, down its passages to the end of the building.

7 Q. And as you took that route, were you ever exposed to any possible

8 fire from the other side?

9 A. Well, only when we would be passing by the windows like the

10 soldiers, like, for instance, the HVO soldiers who escorted us, and they

11 also would double down passing by the windows as I did.

12 Q. So what did you personally have to do often such occasions when

13 you came there?

14 A. Repair, rather, to refill the sandbags; if they were damaged, try

15 to repair that.

16 Q. Could you point on this photograph, where was the separation line

17 and where were the firing positions of the HVO and the BH army?

18 A. On the other side. No, I wouldn't know exactly where because I

19 was never there. On the other side from the Bulevar, whether it was the

20 first building or some buildings behind it, I was never there.

21 Q. Very well. Thank you. Now, let's go back to the position where

22 you say were the sandbags. How tall was this barricade, do you remember?

23 A. Now, how tall it was, there were bags piled up. How tall? A

24 metre and a half perhaps.

25 Q. Could you think of yourself, did it reach up to your chest or

Page 5119

1 above your head or?

2 A. Well, now --

3 Q. Well, you can't remember. Never mind.

4 A. Well, it was of a certain height. If you bent down, you could see

5 across.

6 Q. Was there a cord above the sandbags with some blankets or sheets

7 to serve as a kind of a screen?

8 A. I'm not sure. I don't want to answer any questions that I'm not

9 sure about.

10 Q. But would you allow for such a possibility?

11 A. I would, because there were such cases elsewhere.

12 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Mr. Stringer.

13 MR. STRINGER: I apologise for the interruption. It seems to me

14 that counsel is inviting the witness now to speculate as to whether a

15 screen or blankets were in the area. He said that he doesn't know and

16 that he wouldn't want to guess about it.

17 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Seric, the question you asked is not that proper,

18 because you said, "Would you allow for such a possibility"? That's a

19 speculation.

20 MR. SERIC:

21 Q. [Interpretation] Did you ever anywhere see that kind of thing,

22 that there was a barricade with a cord, and then sheets or blankets or

23 something?

24 A. I know I saw it at Podhum -- no, not at Podhum, above the upper

25 part of Podhum later on when I went to work there. I know about that.

Page 5120

1 Q. And when you came to this place which you pointed next to the

2 Health Centre, you say you don't remember if there were any?

3 A. No, I really don't.

4 JUDGE LIU: We have some problems with the French interpretation,

5 because we don't get it through the right channel.

6 JUDGE DIARRA: [Interpretation] It's too fast. They are far in

7 advance of the French interpretation.

8 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Seric, you have to make a pause after your

9 question. And also, I have to tell the witness that maybe you're not

10 familiar with the equipment in this courtroom. When you see the lights on

11 the mic before the Defence counsel turned off, you begin to answer the

12 question.

13 It seems it's time for a break. We are adjourned until 11.30.

14 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.

15 --- On resuming at 11.30 a.m.

16 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Seric. Please continue.

17 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. Witness II,

18 you have a marker somewhere there, please, to draw something for us, and I

19 will give you a clean copy.

20 Could the usher give the witness a clean copy of this for him to

21 make some markings on it?

22 Q. Could you please mark with the marker where those sandbags that

23 you mentioned a moment ago were situated?

24 A. [Marks]

25 Q. And also please mark with a dotted line your route to reach the

Page 5121

1 point where you told us you were.

2 A. [Marks]

3 Q. On the ELMO, please. Thank you very much.

4 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no further

5 questions of this witness.

6 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

7 THE REGISTRAR: The marked copy will be given the number D1/33.

8 JUDGE LIU: Any cross-examination? Yes, Mr. Krsnik.

9 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Very

10 briefly.

11 THE REGISTRAR: That marked copy should be D2. I'm sorry about

12 that.

13 JUDGE LIU: Is that D2/33?

14 THE REGISTRAR: D2/15.

15 JUDGE LIU: Yes. You may proceed.

16 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

17 Cross-examined by Mr. Krsnik:

18 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness.

19 A. Good morning.

20 Q. I am attorney Kresimir Krsnik, Defence counsel for Mladen

21 Naletilic?

22 A. Please to meet you.

23 Q. I've couple of very brief questions for you.

24 A. Please do so.

25 Q. Would you be kind enough and tell me, who guarded you at the

Page 5122

1 Heliodrom? You were provided security at the Heliodrom? Please watch my

2 microphone. Start with your answer when my light goes off.

3 A. I'll do that. They had white belts. They were military policemen

4 who were there at the Heliodrom.

5 Q. So they were responsible for you, for guarding you and everything

6 that had to do with you who were there in the prison?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. We have heard testimony here, and in one of your prior statements,

9 I don't want to refer you to it, but you said that you could take a shower

10 at the Heliodrom; is that correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And I think you said you had two or three meals. Could you tell

13 us now how many meals you had?

14 A. There were two meals.

15 Q. The quantities.

16 A. Let me see. A loaf of bread. A normal loaf of 750 grams would be

17 cut up into a half, then quarters. So one-quarter had to be taken twice.

18 And then in the morning we would get tea or coffee with milk in containers

19 from the UNHCR, and during the daytime we would get beans and then some

20 pasta, macaroni, something like that.

21 Q. Thank you very much. Please tell us, who guarded you in Dretelj?

22 Who was responsible for that camp?

23 A. Again, people wearing white belts. I didn't know any one of the

24 guards. The only person -- the only person I know was the commander who

25 introduced himself when he interrogated us, and his name was Mr. Anicic.

Page 5123

1 I never saw him before or since. He just said that he was Anicic, nothing

2 more than that.

3 Q. Witness, thank you for your answer. Most sincerely. And I have

4 no further questions for you.

5 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you.

6 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. Any re-examination?

7 Mr. Stringer.

8 MR. STRINGER: Just very briefly, Mr. President.

9 Re-examined by Mr. Stringer:

10 Q. Now, Witness, I have two areas that I would like to ask you about

11 very briefly. The first is when Ernest Takac threw you out of that

12 window, was the window open or closed?

13 A. No, it wasn't closed as it was the kitchen. I've already said

14 that the window was about a metre high when I entered the kitchen. Maybe

15 you took my statement literally that he threw me out the window. But he

16 hit me against the wall, and the window was up to the level of my hips.

17 And then I would hit the roof of the garage with my back, and I would be

18 thrown back and forth, and Ernest hit me like that a couple of times.

19 Q. And then also, you testified that you felt in some ways safer at

20 this place which was Stela's headquarters. Do you recall that?

21 A. Yes, I do recall that I felt safer because I went to Santiceva

22 Street, to Bakina Luka. I was in the 9th battalion in Jasenica, in the

23 4th Battalion at Podhum where many people got killed. And in Santiceva,

24 in fact, two people were shot in the crossfire between the BH army and HVO

25 so that in the command, I didn't fear for my life as I did when my hand

Page 5124

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 5125

1 was injured and everything else, with the exception of that incident that

2 I have described. I'm referring to the incident with Mr. Takac.

3 Q. Why did you no longer go to the Stela headquarters after about two

4 months and ten days?

5 A. My hand was injured. I went to Santiceva one day. My hand was

6 injured. And after that, when this team, this group, had left, the four

7 of them dressed in uniforms and with wooden rifles, I was afraid. And I

8 did my best not to go anywhere. I hid, and I bandaged my hand. And I

9 tried to conceal myself to avoid being sent to do labour.

10 MR. STRINGER: I have no further questions.

11 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Any questions from Judges? Judge Clark,

12 please.

13 JUDGE CLARK: I have a few questions.

14 Questioned by the Court:

15 JUDGE CLARK: You told us a few days ago when you started to give

16 your evidence that you and other Bosnian members of the HVO were arrested,

17 I think. You said there were about 120 of you. Were you given any reason

18 for why you were arrested?

19 A. First of all, they told us that Trijebanj where we were arrested,

20 when the colleagues came to take over our shift, they just said that we

21 would be interrogated. And if we were found to have no connections with

22 the BH army, we would be released. But nobody asked me personally whether

23 I was in the army. And when I saw that civilians were going with us to

24 Dretelj, and when I found the other civilians there, then it became clear

25 to me that the aim was not to establish whether I had anything to do with

Page 5126

1 the army; it was simply my faith. Because large-scale conflicts had

2 started on both sides, and the third side, that nothing could stop. And

3 that is how it happened.

4 JUDGE CLARK: What I really wanted to know was that were you

5 satisfied that it was merely because of your faith that you were deprived

6 of your liberty?

7 A. Yes. Because I found myself with people who were 65 and 70 and

8 children of 15 who never carried any weapons. Nobody interrogated me or

9 asked me whether I was in the HVO and why I was not in the army and things

10 like that, any other questions related to the army and the HVO.

11 JUDGE CLARK: As I understand your evidence, until the escape -- I

12 may be wrong about this but this is how I understand it. Until the escape

13 of 20 or so of your colleagues, the group of you who were in the HVO and

14 who were Muslims were kept together at Dretelj.

15 A. Yes. An entire unit was kept in the metal hangar, this unit of

16 ours of 120. And then some others joined us when it was all over; that

17 is, a couple of days after that, there were between 400 and 500 of us, or

18 450, both civilians and military men.

19 JUDGE CLARK: Then we come to the excerpt from the Danish

20 television video. Do you know the -- do you recall that being made or do

21 you know the circumstances in which the Danish television team had access

22 to the Dretelj camp?

23 A. No. I was at the Heliodrom. I just heard that about two and a

24 half months later they came for the prisoners, and they took them by truck

25 to Split, and from there the prisoners were taken to Denmark.

Page 5127

1 JUDGE CLARK: When you were in -- I'm moving on now to the

2 Heliodrom, when you had moved there. Did the men who were guarding you,

3 who you believe were military police, did they know or were they made

4 aware that all of you were formerly members of the HVO who had been

5 detained or arrested because you were Muslims?

6 A. They didn't know at all which unit I belonged to, because no one

7 asked me that.

8 JUDGE CLARK: Was there any differentiation made between you and

9 your colleagues who had been arrested while on duty with the HVO and other

10 prisoners who were at the Heliodrom?

11 A. Only when it came to selecting people for work. The older people,

12 the elderly, were not taken to work. As for everything else, there was no

13 distinction.

14 JUDGE CLARK: We've been hearing evidence from other witnesses

15 from the Heliodrom who were -- who allege that they were tortured. Your

16 evidence is that you were not maltreated, apart from the bad conditions

17 under which you were detained and then the forced labour?

18 A. No, no one hurt me at the Heliodrom, me personally.

19 JUDGE CLARK: How exactly were you injured? Were you caught in

20 crossfire?

21 A. You're referring to my hand?

22 JUDGE CLARK: Yes.

23 A. Yes. As I was carrying a sandbag to -- in Santiceva Street,

24 between the central prison, the main prison in Santiceva Street, and up

25 there near the post office in the ERO Hotel.

Page 5128

1 JUDGE CLARK: At the time you were injured, were you taken in the

2 truck from the Heliodrom to the Rondo or to the headquarters of the Mrmak

3 before you moved down to Santiceva Street?

4 A. No. At the time, I wasn't working for the Mrmak unit. It was

5 another unit that had nothing to do with the Mrmak unit, as far as the

6 location is concerned and everything else. I went back directly by truck

7 from Santiceva Street to the Heliodrom.

8 JUDGE CLARK: One final question. You were asked -- now I'm

9 reading my own writing, which sometimes presents a problem. You were

10 asked about a prisoner called [redacted]. Does that ring a bell?

11 A. Yes.

12 JUDGE CLARK: And I didn't quite understand what your evidence

13 was.

14 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Stringer.

15 MR. STRINGER: I apologise for the interruption, Judge Clark. I

16 believe that this part of the witness's testimony was in private session

17 for reasons which I can inform you about, but I would suggest that it

18 would be appropriate to move into private session.

19 JUDGE CLARK: My humblest apologies.

20 JUDGE LIU: Well, we'll go to the private session.

21 [Private session]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 5129

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [Open session]

12 JUDGE LIU: Judge Diarra.

13 JUDGE DIARRA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

14 Through the answers given to my colleague, I have received an

15 answer to the first part of my questions. Now I come to the second group

16 of questions. I heard the circumstances of the injury of your hand. I

17 wanted to hear from you whether you were treated for that injury.

18 A. There was a soldier who was a doctor who bandaged my hand, and

19 that was all. And then later, at the Heliodrom, again, there were two

20 doctors, and they gave me some painkillers, because I had pain. And they

21 changed the dressing. And this injury is still visible on my hand.

22 JUDGE DIARRA: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23 JUDGE LIU: Any questions out of the Judges' questions? Yes,

24 Mr. Stringer.

25 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, just one.

Page 5130

1 Further re-examination by Mr. Stringer:

2 Q. Witness, at the Heliodrom, were prisoners of war, that is Muslim

3 members of the ABiH who were now prisoners, were they held in the same

4 place, that is the same buildings, the same rooms, the same cells, if you

5 know, with other Muslims who were civilians who were not members of the

6 army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

7 A. Members of the BH army who were captured before, they were in the

8 central prison. They were not with me. I didn't see them.

9 MR. STRINGER: Thank you. That's all I have.

10 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Mr. Krsnik.

11 Further cross-examination by Mr. Krsnik:

12 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, I wasn't going to go into Knez Domagoj

13 Brigade matters, but I do have a couple of questions. Please watch the

14 light on my microphone.

15 Do you know, Witness, that members of the Knez Domagoj Brigade

16 would arbitrarily leave their positions and would arbitrarily abandon

17 their positions with the weapons and go over to the other side?

18 A. I know that from my unit --

19 MR. STRINGER: I would just object on the grounds that this

20 question is beyond the scope of the questions put by the Judges.

21 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Krsnik, I also believe that your question is a

22 little bit beyond the scope of the Judges' questions. This is not for

23 another chance for the re-examination.

24 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, there may be a

25 misunderstanding. I'm talking about the unit that this gentleman belonged

Page 5131

1 to, and Her Honour Judge Clark questioned him about that. Maybe the name

2 confused you. It is the name of the brigade, but that is the unit that

3 the witness was a member of, as he is confirming by nodding his head. And

4 when the question was put to him why he was arrested, then it is fully in

5 line with the questions posed by Her Honour Judge Clark. I apologise if

6 there's any misunderstanding.

7 I'm also interested in the reasons that brought about their

8 arrest. That was a crucial question put by Her Honour. And for your

9 benefit, Your Honours, I wanted to clear this point up, if I managed to do

10 so with a couple of questions. Maybe it will make it clearer why the

11 arrest took place. So my first question was whether this witness knows

12 that Muslims belonging to the HVO, to that same brigade, would arbitrarily

13 leave their positions fully armed and switch over to the BH army side.

14 And then I'll also have a couple of other questions exclusively linked to

15 this matter.

16 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Krsnik, you may proceed. But just bear in mind

17 that your questions should be closely related to the questions out of

18 Judges' questions. And please lay a proper background for your question

19 so that we know where you are leading us to. Thank you.

20 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

21 Q. So Witness, you have heard my question. So could you please

22 answer it for me.

23 A. I told you that 120 of us were captured. A company has that

24 number of men. I can't say with full responsibility, but out of my

25 platoon that were -- that was on the line that day, no one was missing.

Page 5132

1 Also in our unit, that unit, we had, more or less all of us, weapons which

2 were our own weapons which we had purchased. So if something like that

3 happened, it was not weapons that were taken from the HVO and taken to the

4 BH army side because we had bought those weapons originally.

5 Q. Do you know that precisely when this arrest occurred, that

6 Bijelo Polje, Sjeverni Logor were attacked and a major offensive launched

7 by the BH army?

8 A. Yes, I know that, but I learned that after my arrest because I was

9 never interested in politics. And I'm still not. I spent the whole night

10 on the front line, on the front line in the bunker, so I had no idea as to

11 what was happening. It was only later when I was arrested, my colleague

12 that I had five or six drinks with on Tuesday in Capljina, and then I

13 think it was Thursday that he came and was one of the group of men that

14 arrested me. So I, as an individual. Again I'm speaking in my own name.

15 Q. Thank you, Witness, for your answer. And I appreciate the fact

16 that you're always talking about what you know. Do you know that before

17 the 30th of June, out of that whole brigade - that was my first question

18 if you can answer it for me - there was arbitrary defection of people who

19 would defect to the BH army? Not from your company but from the whole

20 brigade. Do you know that from personal knowledge or did you perhaps know

21 about it?

22 A. May I elaborate a little? We went to the front line for seven or

23 21. Later it was seven/seven, to Trijebanj. We would spend seven there

24 and we would be seven off. So two units would go Trijebanj, and two units

25 were composed exclusively of Muslims. The Croats, at the time, were off.

Page 5133

1 So that front line from Hodovo to Rotimlje, you needed a lot of men to

2 hold the front line. So I can't tell you out of those 250. I can't say

3 that no one did, but the men who were near me from the platoon commander

4 and the men in my unit, I can tell you that I personally really do not

5 know of any individual who defected to the other side. Even -- I

6 apologise for adding this. In fact, we were joined by a couple of other

7 men, and one of them was my close relative.

8 Q. Don't give us the name.

9 A. A close relative from whom I learnt a lot and who was later killed

10 at the separation line. And he joined this shift on the 28th of June.

11 Q. I see. I understand. My final question: At the Heliodrom, in

12 the premises in which you were held, the question of treatment was

13 raised. Did all of you and the people you were able to see receive the

14 same food, and were you served that food in the dining-room?

15 A. Yes, we all got the same food as far as the camp inmates were

16 concerned, but it wasn't served in the dining-room. We left the hall, and

17 in front there was a path leading to the sports field. Then one -- the

18 persons held in one room would get out, form a line of two by two. Then

19 the men distributing food would stand a couple of metres in front of the

20 entrance. They would take the food and go inside, and then the other

21 group would wait at the door for us to get in for them to go out, receive

22 food, and go back in.

23 Q. Thank you. And this really is my last question: In front of the

24 buildings that you were held - you call yourselves inmates. I agree -

25 there were military policemen. Did they control who would go in and out?

Page 5134

1 There weren't that many buildings. There were two or three buildings that

2 constituted the prison. The rest of the buildings were occupied by the

3 military or whoever. So these buildings were controlled by the military

4 police who controlled people coming in and out; is that right?

5 A. Yes. But may I -- may I say what I had to say? Yes, the police

6 was there, and the police knew who was going where and what was happening

7 when they went out, because there were cases when two men might be

8 missing. They would take a couple of prisoners to make up for people they

9 needed for a basketball team. So they may have been missing.

10 Q. Just one more question. If someone took a prisoner to play

11 basketball, even for that purpose the military police had to know?

12 A. Yes. But they also locked our door. The policemen would lock our

13 door.

14 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Witness.

15 JUDGE LIU: Thank you, Witness, for helping us by giving your

16 evidence. When the usher pulls the blinds down, he will take you out of

17 the room. We all wish you good luck in your future. Thank you.

18 At this stage --

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20 [The witness withdrew]

21 JUDGE LIU: At this stage, are there any documents to tender?

22 Mr. Stringer.

23 MR. STRINGER: Yes, Mr. President. The Prosecution would tender

24 first some photographs which were marked by the witness, Exhibit 21.8,

25 Exhibit 20.8, Exhibit 11.18. Exhibit 14.4, I believe, is the one the

Page 5135

1 witness made markings on during his testimony. Those are the

2 photographs. In addition, we would tender the videotape footage of the

3 Dretelj camp. And the only other exhibit referred to, I believe,

4 Mr. President, was the part of Exhibit 704 on which the witness identified

5 names of members of the -- of the ATG Mrmak.

6 Mr. President, with your permission, I could add, and I hope it's

7 okay for me to say this in response to one of Judge Clark's questions,

8 there may be testimony previously given by a closed-session witness who

9 was a member of a humanitarian organisation that might shed light on the

10 time frame of the images which are shown in the Dretelj videotape. I

11 believe there was testimony about the events shown in that videotape from

12 the previous witness. It's a closed-session witness. I don't think I can

13 mention the name at this time.

14 JUDGE LIU: Is there a number for that videotape? Is that P23?

15 MR. STRINGER: Yes, Mr. President, P23.

16 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

17 JUDGE CLARK: Is there a number for the witness so that I could

18 look at the transcript and remind myself without disclosing his or her

19 identity?

20 MR. STRINGER: Perhaps I could -- I could give Your Honour the

21 number that the witness has in the witness summaries which were filed.

22 Oh, I'm sorry. Witness -- it's the third witness who testified in this

23 trial. The third witness who testified in this courtroom.

24 JUDGE LIU: Any objections to those documents tendered by the

25 Prosecutor?

Page 5136

1 Yes, Mr. Krsnik.

2 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, as always when it comes

3 to drawings, maps, and photographs whose origin is known, in all such

4 cases, we do not have any objections, so that we have no objections to the

5 exhibits offered now.

6 JUDGE LIU: Thank you, thank you very much. Mr. Seric.

7 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, no, we do not object to

8 these exhibits of the Prosecution, but the Defence should like to tender

9 the document for which we have already been given the number. And that is

10 D2/15. Thank you.

11 JUDGE LIU: So the documents tendered by the Prosecutor through

12 this witness have been admitted. And are there any objections concerning

13 the documents tendered by the Defence counsel, namely, the D2/15?

14 MR. STRINGER: No objection.

15 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. It will be considered as admitted.

16 And how about the next witness. Are you ready for the next

17 witness, Mr. Scott?

18 MR. SCOTT: Yes, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE LIU: Sorry. Mr. Krsnik.

20 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I don't know if you

21 will allow me to say something. We've fulfilled our plan -- and I think

22 that the next witness is here. But we've fulfilled our plan with the

23 witness; and if I may, I'd only like to take two minutes to address you

24 which has to do with the discussion, with the debate initiated by Her

25 Honour Judge Clark regarding the tendering of evidence. I have not had --

Page 5137

1 yet had the opportunity to say anything about it.

2 I must say I am beginning to be very fearful and I am really

3 beginning to be anxious about all this. I think it has to do with

4 different legal systems and different decisions, and the Charter of the

5 United Nations. And now I'm filled with fear, and I wanted to address you

6 in a few sentences in this regard.

7 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Krsnik, we have a witness waiting outside the

8 room. I know that all of us are very interested in this issue. And this

9 Trial Chamber has made a ruling that probably we'll have a special session

10 for the procedural matters. We already informed both parties that we are

11 expecting a list of the questions you are going to raise during that

12 procedural meeting so that we could set the exact time for that.

13 Would you please reserve your comments for that time. Thank you

14 very much. Thank you for your cooperation.

15 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you. Thank you very much, Your

16 Honour.

17 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Scott.

18 MR. SCOTT: May it please the Court, Your Honours, the next

19 witness is -- will be an open session witness. His name is Fransisco

20 Aguirre, A-G-U-I-R-R-E. First name again, Fransisco. He is an OTP

21 employee, and he will be testifying concerning some of the documents to be

22 tendered, offered, by the Prosecution.

23 JUDGE LIU: I see.

24 MR. SCOTT: And Your Honours, I might say while he's coming in

25 that it would be helpful to the Chamber and to counsel, and in fact

Page 5138

1 perhaps more than helpful, if the two binders that have been previously

2 provided and disclosed to the Defence some weeks ago concerning

3 International Armed Conflict would be available.

4 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

5 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, if I could also make maximum use of our

6 time -- we are trying to do that -- I tendered to the Chamber today --

7 some days ago the Chamber asked for a full version with the audio portion

8 of the tape of the Vranica building. I think Judge Clark may have

9 initiated that.

10 [The witness entered court]

11 MR. SCOTT: I apologise. It has taken some time, for whatever

12 reason, to put that together. But we do have it, and I will provide it to

13 your staff at this time with one note. There is a middle portion -- the

14 original tape was a compilation of I think at least two other cuts --

15 parts. We found in between that there's a very other short segment of a

16 journalist interviewing or something. It's very, very short. Rather than

17 some question being raised that we had deleted something, it's in this

18 version. It doesn't -- we don't think it either adds or detracts,

19 frankly, anything, but we have simply left it in. If I could provide that

20 to your staff, perhaps after the witness testifies.

21 JUDGE LIU: What are you going to do with those tapes? Are you

22 going to tender them as evidence or just as kind of reference materials?

23 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, the original tape, of course, has been

24 tendered some time ago and displayed in the courtroom. This could be -- I

25 suppose perhaps the best way would be to make this a point number, if we

Page 5139

1 could have the original number. To be honest, Your Honour, right now, it

2 is -- the original tape without the audio portion was 17. And I would

3 propose to you, Mr. President, that we make this 17.1.

4 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

5 MR. SCOTT: There is an English transcription also being provided.

6 JUDGE LIU: I see. Thank you.

7 Do we have the opportunity to watch those tapes?

8 MR. SCOTT: I think you will, Your Honour. I prefer to take this

9 next witness, but obviously I'm in your hands.

10 JUDGE LIU: If you want to tender those documents into evidence, I

11 think there should be an opportunity for both the Chamber and Defence

12 counsel to watch it and to raise any questions regarding those tapes.

13 MR. SCOTT: Thank you. I just didn't want it to fall through the

14 cracks, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik.

16 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I do not want to upset

17 you unduly, but I must tell you that the Defence is not prepared for this

18 witness. We have not received any statement. We do not know what he will

19 testify about. We have no idea what he will testify about, except the

20 most general one, that it will be about the international conflict. I do

21 not want to disturb your schedule. I do not want anything. I only wanted

22 you to know it. Whoever does the cross-examination, whether it will be

23 Mr. Meek or myself, we are simply not prepared for this witness.

24 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Scott, could you explain this for us.

25 MR. SCOTT: Of course, Your Honour. Your Honour, it was disclosed

Page 5140

1 to Defence counsel some weeks ago that we would be calling essentially a

2 foundational witness for the purposes of offering the International Armed

3 Conflict binders, which again, have been disclosed to them some weeks

4 ago. There is no surprise here.

5 Secondly, I further informed them last week that the name of that

6 witness, the particular person, would be Mr. Aguirre. There is no

7 statement. There is no prior statement. He is simply going to testify

8 concerning the foundation of the documents contained in those two

9 binders. I have explained that to counsel some time ago, and that is the

10 state of the matter.

11 [Trial Chamber confers]

12 JUDGE LIU: After consultations among the Judges, we believe that

13 we are going to hear this witness. And we also believe that the Defence

14 counsel should have the proper time to prepare their cross-examination.

15 We'll proceed depending on the contents of the testimony of this

16 witness.

17 WITNESS: FRANSISCO AGUIRRE.

18 JUDGE LIU: Good morning, witness.

19 THE WITNESS: Good morning.

20 JUDGE LIU: Would you please make the solemn declaration.

21 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

22 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

23 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. You may sit down, please.

24 Mr. Scott, you may proceed.

25 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. President.

Page 5141

1 Examined by Mr. Scott:

2 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Aguirre.

3 A. Good afternoon, sir.

4 Q. I would like to start, sir, with a bit of background about you.

5 Is it correct that you received a law degree in 1993?

6 A. That's correct.

7 Q. From what institution?

8 A. From the University of the Basque Country in San Sebastian, Spain.

9 Q. Did you also receive a masters degree at some point after that?

10 A. That's correct, in 1995, by the University of Notre Dame in

11 Indiana in the United States.

12 Q. Can you please tell the Chamber briefly about any prior experience

13 that you have had in the last ten years in the country or state of

14 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

15 A. Yes. Just briefly, I visited first time the former Yugoslavia,

16 actually, Croatia, in 1990. That was my first opportunity to get

17 acquainted with the area. Later, I visited again in 1992, in December,

18 Croatia and Bosnia, and actually the areas that are of interest for this

19 case. I did that while working for some humanitarian relief projects,

20 humanitarian assistance. Again, I visited the area repeatedly on several

21 occasions throughout the war, different periods of the conflict.

22 I became a member of the Office of the Prosecutor in October

23 1997. Since then, I have been working on -- in the section of

24 investigations with the Prosecutor here in The Hague.

25 Q. Let me dwell for a minute longer on your experiences in the former

Page 5142

1 Yugoslavia. You said you were in the Mostar region in approximately

2 December 1992. How long were you there, and can you tell us a little bit

3 more about your duties at that time?

4 A. On that occasion, I spent some two weeks in Croatia and in

5 Bosnia. The purpose of the visit was to assess the humanitarian situation

6 there, and then as such, we had -- it was a delegation of us from an

7 organisation, an humanitarian organisation, and as such, our interest was

8 to learn about the situation of the -- primarily the civilian population,

9 and we had a number of contacts with refugees and civilians in order to

10 assess the humanitarian situation.

11 Q. And then did you have a more substantial and extended presence in

12 Mostar and the surrounding area from approximately January 1994 until

13 approximately June 1994?

14 A. That's correct.

15 Q. What were you doing at that time?

16 A. Well, it was a continuation of the same kind of activity, which

17 was humanitarian assistance. We were providing with basic supplies and

18 humanitarian supplies for the refugee population both in refugee camps of

19 Croatia and in the area of Mostar and other areas of Bosnia and

20 Herzegovina.

21 Q. Now, in connection with your work at the OTP, has that involved

22 not only work here in The Hague but some significant amount of work again

23 in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

24 A. Yes, sir. I had to visit on several occasions during the last

25 four years Bosnia-Herzegovina and the area of interest for this case,

Page 5143

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 5144

1 Mostar and the surrounding municipalities.

2 Q. Going back to what you've told us then in the past few minutes, is

3 it fair to say, Mr. Aguirre, that you, since approximately 1990, in one

4 capacity or another, you have had substantial involvement and experience

5 in the former Yugoslavia?

6 A. That's a fair statement, yes.

7 MR. SCOTT: I'd like the -- I'm not sure if they've been provided

8 yet to the registrar or not. I would ask for the usher's assistance to

9 provide the witness and distribute in the courtroom what's been marked for

10 identification purposes as P885, which I see is still next to me here.

11 Mr. Usher, if I could have your assistance.

12 And also to make it -- things hopefully go a bit faster, we could

13 also distribute simultaneously -- hold on one moment, please. We can go

14 ahead and distribute P886 as well.

15 THE INTERPRETER: Excuse me, but could the interpreters get the

16 list always well.

17 JUDGE LIU: Yes. The interpreters should be furnished with those

18 documents too.

19 MR. SCOTT:

20 Q. Mr. Aguirre, let me direct your attention first of all, please, to

21 what's been marked for identification purposes for the record as Exhibit

22 P885. Have you, sir, assisted the Prosecution team in this case in

23 preparing this document which has now been marked -- or schedule which has

24 now been marked as P885?

25 A. Yes, sir. That's right.

Page 5145

1 Q. Now, I think perhaps -- the Chamber of course can ask questions of

2 the witness as well, but I think perhaps the schedule itself, for the most

3 part, speaks for itself, but let me point out a couple of

4 characteristics.

5 The second -- or it would be the third -- my apologies. The

6 fourth column, if you take the numbered column only the far right as being

7 one column, the fourth column entitled "Comment and Relevant Passages,"

8 have you had the opportunity, sir, to review the documents contained on

9 this list and -- concerning the comments and passages that are referenced

10 here?

11 A. Yes, that's right.

12 MR. SCOTT: Now, Mr. President, I should probably make clear -

13 it's just a format matter - the number 1, for instance, the title -- the

14 document here entitled "Nationalism in Contemporary Europe" by Franjo

15 Tudjman, that doesn't have the prefix "IAC," but in the IAC binders that

16 have been previously provided to the Court and counsel, it would -- what

17 is now here as simply "1" would be IAC1 or IAC2. So there's a direct

18 correspondence to those exhibits. Perhaps I should make that clear. It

19 may be helpful.

20 Could the witness also be provided, please, with a set of the two

21 binders. I hope they're available.

22 Q. Mr. Aguirre, if I could ask you, please, the documents -- the two

23 binders that have been put before you, which, for the record, should be

24 marked "International Armed Conflict," given this case number and Volume I

25 and Volume II, is the list that's been marked as P885. Is that a list of

Page 5146

1 the documents contained in those two binders?

2 A. Yes. That's right. It makes 97 documents as contained in the

3 binders. That's right.

4 Q. All right. Now, concerning the last column on the -- last column

5 to the right, that is, on Exhibit P885, as part of your review and to

6 assist the Chamber, did you investigate or inquire as to the source or

7 provider of each of the reference documents?

8 A. Yes, sir, that's right, I did.

9 Q. And just to take a few examples concerning again numbered 1, when

10 you say "Published work," what do you mean by that?

11 A. Well, number one was simply a book in the publish -- in the public

12 domain. I mean, it's a public document, available to the public.

13 Q. All right. And referencing number 2, you have given the submitter

14 or provider as the Bosnian government. Can you again explain what that

15 means?

16 A. Yes, sir. This is a normal occurrence in the cooperation between

17 the Office of the Prosecutor and the Bosnian authorities. The Prosecutor

18 would request the assistance of the Bosnian authorities, and among

19 different ways of assisting the Prosecutor, the Bosnian authorities have

20 submitted documents to the Office of the Prosecutor.

21 Q. All right. Now, jump -- skipping down to item number 5, you've

22 listed in the far column there "Janko Bobetko, Book." Can you please tell

23 the Chamber briefly who Janko Bobetko is and what his role was during the

24 armed conflict in Bosnia-Herzegovina and the surrounding region in the

25 mid-1990s?

Page 5147

1 A. Right. Janko Bobetko was a general of the Croatian army. That --

2 in the period relevant for this case, particularly in 1992, he was the

3 chief of the Main Staff of the army of Croatia. If I can comment on

4 this. Basically, the book is an autobiographic work. He's writing about

5 his own experience. The title of the book is "All My Battles". It's

6 originally published in Croatia, in Zagreb, in Croatian language. It's a

7 quite voluminous book, some 800 pages. Another time there were published

8 actually 5.000 copies of this book.

9 The book, if I can explain on this, the book contains a number of

10 documents. That's why you would see in the list a number of orders in --

11 referred to as for the submitter as "Janko Bobetko, Book." The book

12 contains these orders, and as such, in this way the orders became public

13 documents. In this way, the orders reached the public domain.

14 Q. And for example, on the number 5 that we've simply selected as an

15 example, in that document, that order referred to the fact that there was

16 an order issued to the Croatian army that when they were present in

17 Bosnia-Herzegovina that they should remove their HV insignia from their

18 uniforms.

19 A. Yes, that's correct.

20 Q. Now, let me -- just to pick a couple of other examples, please, if

21 I can direct your attention to number 19. Let me advise you, Witness,

22 that the Chamber has already heard testimony concerning the collection of

23 documents known as the Zagreb archive. When you say Zagreb archive in

24 regard to number 19, are you referring to what you know to be from your

25 work the same Zagreb archive that has been the source of a number of

Page 5148

1 documents that have come to the Office of the Prosecutor?

2 A. Yes, sir, that's right. I believe the official denomination is

3 State Archive of Croatia located in Zagreb.

4 Q. Sir, is it correct, that you personally have spent at least 20

5 working days working in the archive in Zagreb?

6 A. Yes, it's actually more. If my recollection is right, it was some

7 two months last year.

8 Q. I think two other -- perhaps two other examples, referring you and

9 the courtroom, please, to number 40. Are you familiar, sir, with the fact

10 that there were a number of requests to the Spanish government, and in

11 fact, missions to the country of Spain for the purposes of collecting

12 documents provided by the Spanish government? And is that what you mean

13 when you've indicated here as the source or provider, the Spanish army?

14 A. Yes, that is right. The Office of the Prosecutor issued several

15 requests for assistance to the Spanish authorities through the usual

16 channels, the Spanish Embassy and other official channels. And then as a

17 result of these requests for assistance, the Spanish authorities granted

18 access to the staff of the Prosecutor's office to their archives in

19 Madrid, in the headquarters of the Spanish army in Madrid.

20 Q. All right. Very well. And if I can next direct your attention to

21 the last example, I think, Item Number 46. You have listed there the

22 provider as ECMM. What does that mean?

23 A. ECMM stands for European Community Monitoring Mission, which as

24 the name explains, was the European Mission of international observers

25 that were deployed in the area of the conflict during the war.

Page 5149

1 Q. He can -- let me ask a few questions about the documents -- the 97

2 documents that are listed on P885. Based on your training, knowledge, and

3 experience in the former Yugoslavia that you told us about this morning,

4 two questions: As to the documents themselves, and that I mean not so

5 much the content but the type of document, the format of the document, the

6 character of the documents themselves, are those consistent with your

7 knowledge and experience based on the type of documentation and records

8 that you've seen in connection with the former Yugoslavia over the past

9 several years?

10 A. Yes, certainly. As a whole, we can say that the documents

11 contained in the collection are consistent with, to the best of my

12 knowledge, about the context and about the originators. It is a

13 consistent collection of documents. Now, this is a large number. There

14 are 97, and if you -- we might need to discuss some details because there

15 are different kinds of documents certainly contained in this collection.

16 Q. Well, if you would briefly like to provide some additional

17 information to the Chamber, do so.

18 A. Mm-hmm. Well, we can say just to give an overview -- I'm sorry

19 to -- just see my notes where I made some brief statistics. Of the 97

20 documents, the majority of them in this collection came from the

21 United Nations, more than 50 documents in this collection came from

22 different bodies of the United Nations. So this is the main source of

23 evidence for this matter at this point.

24 Next, we have a group of 17 documents that originate from the

25 HVO. That would be the second group in importance for the evidence.

Page 5150

1 Then we have seven documents that originate, that come from the

2 army of Croatia. Then we have another seven documents that originate from

3 the Travnik Police Department, and these are actually applications for the

4 citizenship for the Republic of Croatia, applications for Bosnian

5 citizens. And then we have a smaller number of documents from a -- the

6 Crisis Staff of Kiseljak, two documents; two other documents from the

7 European Community Monitoring Mission. We have the "Book of Tudjman", as

8 one document that I've already mentioned. We have two more letters that

9 are public, and then finally we have one more document that comes from the

10 Croatian democratic community, the political party. This is a rough

11 overview of the composition of this collection.

12 Q. Thank you very much, Witness.

13 Let me ask you a further question similar to the one I asked you a

14 moment ago but concerning the content of the documents, the content or the

15 information contained in the documents. And I'm only asking this for

16 these purposes, in a general way: Was there anything in the content of

17 these documents that you reviewed that you found to be fundamentally

18 inconsistent with or contrary, to your knowledge, concerning these

19 matters?

20 A. Well, no, sir, I haven't found anything fundamentally

21 inconsistent.

22 Q. For instance, to be -- perhaps if I can follow that up. Did you

23 see anything reported in these documents in terms of the content which

24 jumped out at you as being substantially -- if I could use the term, out

25 of kilter -- with what your investigation and experience has shown in the

Page 5151

1 past 10 years?

2 A. No, I have not found anything inconsistent. For example, a main

3 issue in the content, as can be seen from the documents, is the presence

4 of units of the army of Croatia, HV units --

5 JUDGE LIU: Yes, yes.

6 Yes, Mr. Krsnik.

7 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I have to object

8 to this kind of examination. It is difficult for me to follow. It is for

9 the first time that I see this collection of documents. And the question

10 of consistency is being posed repeatedly, consistency of what? The

11 witness's sojourn on the ground, who saw the original, the sources of

12 those documents? I don't really understand and I object.

13 I would kindly ask that we either go from one document to the

14 next, because as far as I have been able to understand, the witness has

15 not come to talk about the sources but generally about the international

16 conflict. And all this time, we're talking about sources of documents and

17 consistency with what? With the witness's sojourn on location? Could the

18 Prosecutor perhaps clarify what this consistency refers to.

19 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Scott. We also have some problems with the

20 understanding of that word "consistency". Maybe you could lay more

21 background on this issue so that we could know where you are leading us

22 to.

23 MR. SCOTT: Yes, Your Honour. I would be happy to do so. I have

24 to comment, though, if counsel says it is the first time he has seen these

25 documents, then again, I have to note for the record that the documents

Page 5152

1 have been provided some weeks ago.

2 Q. In terms of consistency, Mr. Aguirre, let me ask you this

3 question --

4 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this, this document,

5 this particular document, Mr. Prosecutor, I see for the first time. And

6 I'm following your examination-in-chief on the basis of that document.

7 Please don't distort the meaning of my words every time.

8 JUDGE LIU: We understand what you mean, Mr. Krsnik. I believe

9 that this is only a list of all those documents.

10 You may proceed, Mr. Scott.

11 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. President. And you're, indeed, right.

12 This is provided to assist the Chamber. That's all. That's all that it

13 is.

14 Q. Mr. Aguirre, let me go back to the questions that have been raised

15 by counsel and the Chamber. What I mean by consistency is that you have

16 worked in the former Yugoslavia on the ground on a number of occasions,

17 you've told us. Is that correct? Is that correct?

18 A. That's correct, sir, that's right.

19 Q. Would it be fair to say that in your employment with the OTP since

20 October 1997 that you've probably looked at some thousands and thousands

21 of HVO documents, UN records, other documents relevant to this case and

22 other cases concerning the former Yugoslavia?

23 A. Yes, sir. That's right.

24 Q. So based against that experience, is there anything about the type

25 of documents you see here, such as HVO orders, such as Security Council

Page 5153

1 resolutions, that sort of thing? Is there anything about those sort of

2 documents that seems to you to be inconsistent with the vast amount of

3 information that you've seen?

4 A. No, I have not found anything that I would consider inconsistent,

5 to the best of my knowledge, through my work in the investigations here.

6 Now, sir, may I comment? May I just perhaps assist with a couple

7 of examples.

8 Q. Yes, please.

9 A. What we may consider relevant points of consistency, commenting on

10 the internal consistency of the collection, which is the consistency of

11 the documents with each other, I think it is an interesting point to see

12 how in Exhibit 1, which comes from the "Book of Tudjman", you can see that

13 Tudjman, who would become later the president of Croatia, is mentioning a

14 number of areas in the territory of Bosnia, areas of his interest, areas

15 that it is explained in the exhibit should either become part of Croatia

16 or join a single entity with Croatia. This is all in the document --

17 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik.

18 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think I now

19 understand what this consistency means. Actually, I happen to have read

20 that book, and what the witness is saying is not consistent, and it

21 doesn't at all emanate from the book, what this witness is now saying

22 cannot be inferred from the book.

23 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Krsnik, this witness is telling us a view which

24 you might not agree with. And your right is fully respected before this

25 Chamber, and you have the full opportunity to challenge whatever he says

Page 5154

1 during his testimony. Let us hear what the witness is going to tell us.

2 Thank you.

3 MR. SCOTT:

4 Q. Now --

5 A. Thank you, Your Honour. Just briefly.

6 Q. Briefly, please.

7 A. The point being the areas mentioned in the book by Tudjman are the

8 same areas where units of the Croatian army are identified later, same

9 cities and the same municipalities, later we can see the units of the

10 Croatian army.

11 We can also see a relevant remarkable point of consistency in the

12 mention of the units. Different sources agree, coincide; different

13 sources included in this collection on naming and identifying the same

14 units of the Croatian army. They are consistent on this.

15 Q. Very well. Witness, what I would like to ask you to do next is if

16 you could turn -- if you could turn in the first binder -- you should have

17 two binders in front of you. If you could turn first of all to -- I think

18 we will skip number 1 which, in fact, in the last few minutes you've

19 essentially told us about.

20 If I can ask you to turn, and the Chamber to turn, please, to

21 Exhibit Number 5. Can you assist the Chamber, this says -- makes

22 reference to in connection with the order of General Janko Bobetko. You

23 mentioned General Bobetko's name a few moments ago. Can you explain to

24 the Chamber again who General Bobetko was as of the 12th of November,

25 1992, and his role in Bosnia-Herzegovina at that time?

Page 5155

1 A. Yes, sir. Two points: Janko Bobetko was the chief of the Main

2 Staff of the army of Croatia, and as such, he was under the authority of

3 the president of the Republic, commander in chief, which was President

4 Tudjman mentioned before. Secondly, at this stage, in April '92, Bobetko

5 was appointed by President Tudjman as the commander specifically for the

6 southern front, which is what is most relevant here. He became the

7 commander of the so-called southern front of the army of Croatia. And

8 then you can see in the documents included in this collection what was the

9 area of responsibility, the area of activity of such southern front which

10 comprised both areas of Croatia and areas of the Republic of Bosnia and

11 Herzegovina.

12 Q. Directing your attention to Item number 6 on the document itself,

13 on number 5, Exhibit 5 -- actually, there's two number 6s I'm afraid, for

14 whatever reason. But looking to the second number 6, have you seen -- is

15 this document --

16 THE INTERPRETER: Would you please speak into the microphone or

17 move the microphone.

18 MR. SCOTT: My apology.

19 Q. Can you tell the Chamber what is referenced in the second

20 paragraph number 6 concerning removal of HV insignia, was that unique to

21 this particular document or, in the course of your various investigations,

22 have you seen a number of documents to that effect?

23 A. No, this is not unique. This is consistent. This coincides with

24 other documents included in this collection. In a later stage, a number

25 of HVO documents give the same or similar instructions.

Page 5156

1 Q. Let me then ask you to turn next to Exhibit 8 or item 8, please.

2 Can you tell the Chamber. That is a document -- forgive me. Let me go

3 back for a moment. That is document dated the 22nd of April, 1992 of the

4 HVO or the Croatian Defence Council. The document at several points makes

5 reference to someone named Ante Roso, including in item one, Major General

6 Ante Roso, responsible for the Livno region. Can you tell the Chamber who

7 Ante Roso was as of April 1992?

8 A. Yes, Ante Roso was an officer of the Croatian army, and later,

9 General Roso actually became also the commander of the Main Staff of the

10 HVO. He took that position in November 1993.

11 MR. SCOTT: For give me, Mr. President. I was just checking on a

12 procedural matter.

13 Q. Let me ask you to go to...

14 MR. SCOTT: I'm sorry. I'm trying to edit as I go.

15 Mr. President, to take as little time as possible.

16 A. May I comment, sir.

17 MR. SCOTT:

18 Q. Well, briefly, please?

19 A. Just to say the other person mentioned in this document was also

20 an HV officer, Miljenko Crnec.

21 Q. Let me ask you to go to Exhibit 19. This is an order from Milivoj

22 Petkovic. I think this is a name that the Chamber has heard before but

23 perhaps not a great deal of information. Can you assist the Chamber with

24 describing who was and what was his position, that of Mr. Milivoj Petkovic

25 as of November 1992?

Page 5157

1 A. Yes, sir. Milivoj Petkovic was first an officer of the army of

2 Croatia, that later was appointed as the top commander of the HVO. The

3 proper -- the precise name of the position is chief of the HVO Main Staff,

4 as you can see in the document itself.

5 Q. Had he -- had Mr. Petkovic been, up to the time of his appointment

6 as the chief of the HVO Main Staff, a professional general in the army of

7 the Republic of Croatia?

8 A. Yes, that's right.

9 Q. And I direct your attention and the Chamber's attention in

10 particular to paragraph number 3. And is that again a reference, sir, as

11 you've told us, to orders that HV members should not be wearing HVO -- HV

12 insignia while in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

13 A. That's correct. This is consistent with the document we reviewed

14 previously.

15 Q. Can I ask you to please turn to number 54. Mr. Aguirre, I'm going

16 to caution you about this. This document may be under seal, so I'm not

17 going to ask you to describe the document itself for these purposes?

18 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, I think we can proceed without

19 identifying specifically the document.

20 Q. But let me direct your attention, Witness, to page 2 -- the page

21 numbered 2, apart from the cover sheet, if you will, page number 2 of the

22 document and to item D as in "David," sub 1, "Mostar."

23 There is a statement in that paragraph that says: "The HVO had

24 the support of HV and BSA." Can you tell the Chamber what "BSA" stands

25 for?

Page 5158

1 A. "BSA" stands for Bosnian Serb army.

2 Q. Can you go to Exhibit 59, please? Can I direct your attention to

3 the page numbered 3, actually numbered 3 in the translation in the lower

4 right corner, and direct your attention to the third paragraph on that

5 page starting with the words "With respect to the Croatian side..."? Do

6 you have that?

7 A. That's right. Yes, I do.

8 Q. There's a reference made to someone named Slobodan Praljak. Can

9 you tell the Chamber who Slobodan Praljak was as of - forgive me a

10 moment - August of 1993?

11 A. Well, by August 1993, Slobodan Praljak had become the commander of

12 the Main Staff of the HVO.

13 Q. And as indicated here, is it consistent with your information and

14 investigations the past number of years that immediately prior to taking

15 that position, Mr. Slobodan Praljak was a former Croatian Deputy Minister

16 of Defence?

17 A. Yes, that's correct. Some sources refer to him as deputy

18 minister. Other sources refer to him as an assistant to the minister.

19 But certainly a member of the Ministry of Defence of the Republic of

20 Croatia.

21 Q. I ask you to go now to -- if I can direct everyone's attention,

22 please, to the second binder, and item number 71.

23 Witness, if I could direct your attention to paragraph number 2.

24 Excuse me a moment. To your knowledge and based upon your familiarity

25 with these matters, is the Tudjman being referenced here the

Page 5159

1 then-president of the Republic of Croatia, Franjo Tudjman?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And this is a memo from someone named Thorwald Stoltenberg. Can

4 you tell the Chamber who Thorwald Stoltenberg was as of January 1993 and

5 his position and his involvement concerning Bosnia and Herzegovina at that

6 time?

7 A. Thorwald Stoltenberg was one of the senior international mediators

8 in the conflict, I believe, representing the United Nations.

9 Q. There's a reference in paragraph 2 to an ammunition plant in

10 Central Bosnia at Vitez. Do you have any -- can you provide the Chamber

11 any assistance with why the president of the Republic of Croatia would be

12 interested in an ammunition plant located in Central Bosnia?

13 A. An explanation that would be consistent with what is included in

14 the collection would take us back to the exhibit -- to the number -- to

15 the document number 1 of the collection, which is that this area was of

16 interest or was -- a claim was intended to become part of Croatian

17 territory or a Croatian entity. That is why certainly an

18 ammunition factory would be an item of strategic interest for Croatia and

19 its president.

20 Q. Let me ask you to go to Exhibit 77.

21 MR. SCOTT: And just so the record is clear, perhaps -- so to

22 avoid any confusion, I should be saying IAC77 to avoid confusion with

23 P77.

24 Mr. President. My apology.

25 Q. If you look at IAC77, directing your attention to page number 5,

Page 5160

1 subparagraph 2 under 5, heading number 5, "Other information." Is that

2 entry concerning the observation of three buses filled with HV troops --

3 again, is an entry such as that unique to this particular document or have

4 you seen a number of documents bearing similar -- containing similar

5 information?

6 A. Well, sir, there are several documents in this collection that

7 refer to the same point of the presence of HV units in different

8 municipalities, in different -- different areas throughout Bosnia and

9 Herzegovina.

10 Q. Let me ask you to go to --

11 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, I think I can complete this part.

12 There will probably be a few additional questions, but I think at least

13 this part before the lunch break, I hope.

14 Q. Can I ask you to go to Exhibit 82, IAC82. Is this a letter -- an

15 official record of a letter from the Secretary-General, the same

16 secretary - excuse me - the then-Secretary-General of the United Nations,

17 Boutros Boutros-Ghali?

18 A. That's right, yes.

19 Q. And directing your attention to the third paragraph on the -- in

20 the letter, starting with the words "The Croatian army ...." Can you

21 provide the Chamber with any assistance in terms of the context and the

22 issues as of late 1993 and early 1994 regarding the sending of a

23 high-level UN communication about the involvement of the Croatian army in

24 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

25 A. Certainly.

Page 5161

1 Q. Please.

2 A. The main source of the information for such a report by the

3 Secretary-General was the UNPROFOR. The United Nations Protection Force,

4 as you may know, were deployed throughout Bosnia. Their force was

5 thousands of soldiers, up to a peak of 20.000 soldiers, as well as the

6 United Nations military observers. Both UNPROFOR and UNMO observers will

7 coincide on spotting these units, and they will report through the

8 structure of the United Nations all the way up to the Secretary-General.

9 So based on these sources, the Secretary-General could state

10 that -- could confirm that these units of the Croatian army were in fact

11 deployed in these areas.

12 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, one final question on this document,

13 then I suggest we can break.

14 Q. Toward the lower part of that document, on the first page there is

15 a listing of units of the army of the Republic of Croatia, for instance,

16 the 1st Guards Brigade and then ending down with item G, Special Military

17 Police. Is the listing of units there -- have you seen other documents

18 and other information coming to your attention that is consistent with

19 that, that is, the presence -- indeed the presence of those units in

20 Bosnia-Herzegovina during this period?

21 A. Yes, that's right. This can be seen in the collection itself.

22 These units are mentioned in other documents of the same collection from

23 different sources. May I comment that this is not an exhaustive list.

24 There are more than these HVO units in Bosnia.

25 Q. Thank you, Mr. Aguirre.

Page 5162

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 5163

1 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, I suggest we could break there for

2 lunch.

3 JUDGE LIU: We'll resume at 2.30 this afternoon.

4 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.00 p.m.

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 5164

1 --- On resuming at 2.30 p.m.

2 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Scott. Please continue.

3 MR. SCOTT:

4 Q. All right, Mr. Aguirre. Let me go to two final documents in this

5 exercise, Exhibit IAC 88.

6 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, I'm looking at that document further.

7 I think it's quite similar to one of the ones we looked at before lunch,

8 and I don't have questions about that.

9 Q. If we can go, then, to Exhibit IAC 92. In reference, Witness, to

10 the second paragraph, or at least the first paragraph under "discussion",

11 it makes reference to the Buna area. Could you assist the Chamber in

12 indicating approximately where in the Herzegovina region that's located.

13 A. Yes, sir. As it states in the document, Buna is at the south of

14 Mostar. This belongs to the municipality of Mostar, if I am not wrong,

15 and this is the limit bordering the area of the municipalities of Mostar

16 and Stolac.

17 Q. This document, also in that same second paragraph -- and it's a

18 term that may or may not have come up in the Chamber before, so I want to

19 give you a chance to explain it. Actually, it's in the title of the

20 document itself, "Withdrawal of HV forces from Bosnia, UNMO report,

21 20 February, 1994." Can you explain to the Chamber what "UNMO" stands

22 for.

23 A. Yes, sir. United Nations Military Observers. We find the reports

24 within the collections of UNPROFOR, within the UNPROFOR collections, so

25 they were cooperating, working together. The UNMOs were composed, there

Page 5165

1 were teams of multinational compositions, officers of different countries

2 joined in different UNMO teams.

3 Q. Can you provide the Chamber with any assistance in terms of how

4 were the UNMOs different than the other UNPROFOR units which we've come to

5 refer to, for instance, the Spanish UNPROFOR unit being SpaBat, or the

6 British battalion being BritBat. How were the UNMOs different from those

7 components, if you know?

8 A. In their composition, as I was saying, was different because the

9 composition is multinational. They gather officers from different

10 countries, military officers from different countries. As opposed to the

11 battalions, they had national basis from Spain, the United Kingdom, Egypt,

12 Malaysia, Canada, a number of different countries.

13 Q. Can you assist us, do you know if the mission of the two groups

14 was different?

15 A. Yes, sir. The UNMO mission by definition was particularly

16 specifically observers. Their mission was to report on military

17 developments, deployment of different forces in the field. That was their

18 focus. The mandate of UNPROFOR was a broader one. They were deployed

19 throughout the territory with permanent positions in different areas.

20 They were escorting humanitarian convoys, and they also had a mandate of

21 reporting. They were regularly reporting as well to the UN.

22 Q. Very well. Thank you, Witness.

23 That concludes the questions about those two binders.

24 Mr. Aguirre, if I could next ask you to look at what was the second list

25 that was provided to you before lunch, which is P886. Can you just

Page 5166

1 briefly describe to the Chamber what is shown on P886.

2 A. Yes, sure. P886 itself is a schedule, is an index of different

3 documents. The first category refers to seized documents and contains one

4 single document. This document was seized by officers, by members of the

5 Prosecutor's office in premises of the HVO.

6 Other categories refer to UNPROFOR. We have explained already the

7 origin of these kind of documents.

8 The third category refers to the government of Bosnia, as we have

9 mentioned before. This is the result of several requests for assistance

10 to the authority of Bosnia. The next category refers to the Zagreb

11 archives, which is the state archive of Croatia in Zagreb. We have

12 already explained that. And the last category refers to UN

13 organisations. Here we see six documents. The first three are originated

14 by the UN Commission for Human Rights which, as you may know, appoint a

15 Special Rapporteur for the former Yugoslavia, was Mr. Mazowiecki. The

16 other three documents are originated by UNESCO, the UN agency for cultural

17 protection.

18 Q. Sorry to interrupt you, but perhaps you could assist the Chamber

19 on that if you know. Why would UNESCO, which members of the Chamber might

20 be familiar with in general, why would UNESCO be involved or interested in

21 what was happening in Bosnia-Herzegovina at that time?

22 A. Well, the reason is clear, which is that the historical heritage

23 buildings and cultural objects were threatened by the war, and they could

24 and they did get damaged by -- in the course of the war.

25 Q. Very well. So for example, I take it, as an example that when you

Page 5167

1 say 741 and 779 or -- would those be UNESCO documents?

2 A. Yes. I was referring to the -- to these three documents, 741,

3 779, and 794.

4 Q. Very well. Now the final -- actually, I think you said final, but

5 there's one last category on page 4, simply under the title

6 "Miscellaneous". When you say "Media" in the far right column, what are

7 you referring to there?

8 A. Well, it is explained in the central column, in the central

9 broader column for each of the documents. So the first is Slobodna

10 Dalmacija, which is a daily newspaper from Croatia based in Split,

11 actually. The second one is the Croatian weekly, Hum, as you can see

12 there. The third one is an audiotape, and the last one is another daily

13 newspaper from Croatia, from Zagreb.

14 Q. Let me just ask you generally about this list of documents which

15 is P886, similar to the questions I asked you this morning. Are those

16 documents again, again as to their format and character, consistent with

17 the type of documents that you've seen both during your times in

18 Bosnia-Herzegovina and in your work in the Office of the Prosecutor?

19 A. Yes, sir, that's right. This is consistent with a much bigger

20 collection of documents that I deal with regularly as part of my work with

21 the Prosecutor.

22 Q. And again, was there anything about this collection of documents

23 which stood out to you as something that surprised you as again being

24 fundamentally inconsistent with the other similar types of documents that

25 you've seen?

Page 5168

1 A. I don't think so, sir. I think that this is a consistent

2 selection of documents.

3 Q. Thank you, Mr. Aguirre.

4 MR. SCOTT: I have no further questions, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Any cross-examination?

6 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, Mr. Naletilic's Defence

7 wishes to ask you kindly to allow us to prepare for this

8 cross-examination. We consider it one of the fundamental witnesses. It

9 is -- this is a heap of documents which the Defence needs to examine

10 properly and needs time to do that in order to be able to communicate with

11 this witness, and we are really not ready to do it today.

12 The Defence holds that this cross-examination with this witness

13 could be perhaps the key point of this case. We need to examine all the

14 documents that were received from this list today, all the other

15 documents, prepare our questions. We believe that this cross-examination

16 will perhaps be one of my longest cross-examinations ever, because the

17 Chamber needs indeed to get a proper picture. Of course, if the witness

18 is ready to answer all the questions that we intend to ask him.

19 So we should really like to ask you kindly to give us time.

20 Besides, this witness lives and works here, if I understood it properly,

21 so I do not think it will be particularly difficult for him to come on

22 another occasion and answer our questions.

23 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Seric.

24 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] I should like to second the request of

25 my colleague and I -- and add we have already asked in the early days of

Page 5169

1 this case, that is that we needed time to study the documents. This is

2 one of the obvious cases when we need that. We have to prepare for

3 cross-examination from one day to the other, and going at this pace, we

4 are simply unable to cross-examine this witness.

5 The reasons for this which this witness was called is already at

6 issue, that is, the existence of an international armed conflict. I do

7 not want to repeat what Mr. Krsnik has said, but this is a very important

8 matter for the Defence, and we wanted to try to clarify it with this

9 witness if, of course, this witness is qualified to help us resolve this

10 matter. But we are simply unable to immediately follow up on the

11 examination -- direct examination.

12 So I should also like to ask you kindly to defer this examination

13 until tomorrow. It is true that tomorrow we have another witness, but if

14 it could be then postponed until Friday or perhaps Monday so that we can

15 have enough time to prepare for this cross-examination.

16 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Scott.

17 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, I find myself in a position where I must

18 disagree very strongly with the way that the counsel have put this issue.

19 This witness is simply a document foundation witness. He did not come

20 here to express an opinion on whether there was indeed an international

21 armed conflict. It simply is the foundation of these documents.

22 The surprise that continues to be claimed by counsel is not

23 appropriate. These documents have been provided a long time ago, many of

24 them provided over a year ago, over a year ago, as long as before this

25 trial started.

Page 5170

1 This witness is here simply to provide foundation, information,

2 and to assist the Chamber with identifying particular aspects of the

3 document. To assist the Chamber, for instance, in who was Janko Bobetko?

4 Who was this person? Who was that person? and to make some comments about

5 the documents. We specifically did not put to this witness any questions

6 about opinion or conclusions about the existence of an international armed

7 conflict, and I think counsel is entirely -- can entirely go forward with

8 a reasonable cross-examination on those points.

9 And if we do have further cross-examination, Your Honour, I must

10 advise the Chamber that we will object to the scope of cross-examination

11 and questions asked of this witness about the content of the documents and

12 his opinion. That is not why this witness was called. He is a

13 procedural, document foundation witness, period. And if the counsel

14 intends to come up here and put all sorts of questions to him, their case

15 about the non-existence of an international armed conflict, that is

16 completely beyond the scope of this witness, Your Honour. Thank you.

17 [Trial Chamber confers]

18 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik.

19 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours, for giving

20 me the floor once again. To begin with, it is not true that we were

21 disclosed these documents a year ago. We received them on the 7th of

22 September, and that is the exact date.

23 I wish to say, Your Honours, that I cannot agree with the opinion

24 of my learned friend, because that was not the drift of the examination in

25 direct. This witness, apart from introducing these documents, this

Page 5171

1 witness confirmed the veracity of some allegations, and in our view, they

2 need to be subjected to cross-examination. It is not enough to say, "Who

3 is" -- "What is Slobodan Praljak?" for instance, because this witness

4 spoke more broadly of Slobodan Praljak. And this is just a minor example

5 out of all these 90-something items. We need to ask this witness and find

6 out what he knows about Slobodan Praljak, which then led him to say what

7 he said today about Slobodan Praljak.

8 Of course, now I will not be telling you all the -- about all the

9 questions that I intend to put about this gentleman or anyone else. We

10 need to ask some questions of a much more -- somewhat broader scope than

11 these documents because this witness cannot testify only to lay the

12 foundation for these documents, just as Mr. Prelec could not do it or

13 anyone else because they did not know how these documents found their way

14 to the place where they were then found.

15 Apart from the documents of the United Nations, against which we

16 objected never because we have due respect for them and which were

17 publicised, but all this necessitates a broader analysis and a more

18 thorough cross-examination so that - I repeat this - the Chamber could

19 acquire a proper and true picture about the truth, whichever it is. And

20 to do it this way, to call in a witness and then introduce a host of

21 papers and say, "Well, that is why this witness is here," no. This

22 witness is not here because of that. This is really a question too

23 important. And I cannot even understand our learned friends from the

24 Prosecution. Why wouldn't they allow us to examine this witness before

25 the world, public, who, after all, who here, also is present in this

Page 5172

1 building every day?

2 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Seric.

3 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I have

4 never so far had any disputes with our learned friends from the

5 Prosecution. Now this is -- this is the first time now. And allow me to

6 say something.

7 It is not true - and my apologies, Mr. Scott - it is not true that

8 the witness did not voice his opinions today, or more to the point, he --

9 the word "consistent" kept cropping up. What does that mean? It means

10 that the witness read Mr. Franjo Tudjman's book of 1981 and then

11 established the consistency, as if in 1981, Dr. Franjo Tudjman was

12 planning an aggression against Bosnia-Herzegovina.

13 Now, if that is not the opinion of this witness whom we have

14 today, then I either have very poor hearing or poor sight, and maybe

15 both. Thank you.

16 JUDGE LIU: Well, after consultations among the Judges, we believe

17 that this witness is really a document foundation witness. That is to say

18 that we could only ask the questions about the origin, the foundation of a

19 document but rather than substantive issues concerning the international

20 armed conflict. I hope the cross-examination, which will be made by the

21 Defence counsel will be limited within this scope. On the other hand, we

22 also believe that today, we are confronting such a bundle of documents

23 that we also need time to go through with them piece by piece. We also

24 have some questions and doubts about certain documents concerning its

25 origin as well as the channel to obtain them.

Page 5173

1 For instance, the Document IAC 92 is supposed to be a UN document,

2 but we don't see any titles, any stamps, any certifications on it. And

3 there are some other documents for those last days, which means that we

4 need time to go through all those documents, and we also need some

5 explanations from this witness. Then we could make a decision whether to

6 admit them into the evidence or not.

7 Having said that, we decided we will defer the cross-examination

8 until Friday morning, or even later next Monday so that the Defence

9 counsel have enough time to go through all those documents. It is so

10 decided.

11 Yes, Mr. Scott.

12 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, I'm not arguing the Chamber's ruling.

13 I am, however, going to make -- just to avoid the confusion that came up

14 this morning about tendering and offering and all that, I am, before I

15 finish my direct examination, tendering, offering, providing to the

16 Chamber for admission all of the documents listed on -- exhibits listed on

17 P885 and on P886, and would also say that as to those documents listed on

18 P885, in the front binder of the -- the front of the first binder of the

19 IAC documents, there is a separate listing of all 97 documents. And the

20 reason I say that's particularly important -- and I bring that to the

21 Chamber's attention, is that in that document, it is also indicated that a

22 number of these documents are under seal and would be -- or are proposed

23 to be, and in other cases have been, under seal.

24 So I would bring those three lists to the Chamber's attention in

25 terms of whether they are admitted; or even if they aren't admitted, I

Page 5174

1 suppose for purposes of the record, the ones indicated should be under

2 seal. But I want the record to be clear that we, in fact, do, offer and

3 tender all of those exhibits at this time.

4 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much for your information.

5 Is there anything that both parties would like to raise at this

6 stage?

7 MR. SCOTT: Sorry, Mr. President.

8 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Scott.

9 MR. SCOTT: Mr. Bos reminds me, as I indicated to the Chamber

10 earlier, Mr. Aguirre is not available the rest of this week. So given the

11 Chamber's ruling, the first time he would be available would be Monday,

12 Your Honour. And if you give me one moment, there's something that I was

13 trying to remember. I guess, Your Honour -- this is what it is. This

14 goes back, indeed, to the discussion we had this morning. The Chamber has

15 just now indicated that it might have questions as to particular

16 documents. Now, obviously without knowing what those questions, we're not

17 in a position to respond to that.

18 I suspect, to give a specific example, you just mentioned, Your

19 Honour, Number 92, the UNMO report, and the fact that it doesn't have any

20 UN markings on. I suspect, Your Honour, that on investigation, what I

21 will be able to provide you is further documentation in terms of the OTP's

22 records showing that through a series of from "one to one to one"

23 document, that this, in fact, came in through a UN source, and I can

24 document that. But obviously, I cannot respond to the Chamber's

25 particular questions without knowing which questions they are.

Page 5175

1 Thank you.

2 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Par.

3 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] If it is possible, if it is -- if there

4 is time, then I thought going back to the question I raised this morning,

5 that is, asking questions beyond the scope of the indictment. Perhaps if

6 we have time, perhaps we could go back to that, because next week, we

7 shall have some witnesses coming, and it will be a highly topical matter

8 then. So perhaps, if we have time today, perhaps we could discuss it.

9 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Mr. Krsnik.

10 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, with your leave, I

11 should also like, time permitting, to raise a question, but perhaps the

12 witness -- I do not know if the witness needs to listen to our debates

13 here, of course, if you, that is, allow us to raise that matter today. I

14 merely wanted to announce the topic that I would like to raise, if you

15 think that we could do it today and that we would have enough time to do

16 that.

17 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Scott.

18 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, we have the next witness waiting.

19 Thank you.

20 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

21 So, Witness, I'm sorry we cannot continue with you for this week.

22 We are expecting that you will be back next Monday.

23 THE WITNESS: That's right. Thank you, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE LIU: Just please remember that during this period, you are

25 still under the solemn declaration, which means that you are not allowed

Page 5176

1 to approach anybody or to be approached by anyone concerning the

2 testimonies you made today.

3 THE WITNESS: I understand. Thank you, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. The usher will show you out of the room.

5 [The witness stands down]

6 JUDGE LIU: Since we have next witness waiting, I think at this

7 moment, we'll hear the next witness to make the best use of the time in

8 the courtroom. We'll find another time to deal with all those issues

9 raised by both parties.

10 MR. SCOTT: Mr. Bos will be handling the next witness, Your

11 Honour.

12 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

13 MR. BOS: Thank you, Your Honours. The next witness has requested

14 some protective measures. He would like to have his image distorted and

15 his voice distorted. And he requested a pseudonym as well. So I presume

16 that we have to set up the courtroom for these protective measures, if

17 they are granted.

18 JUDGE LIU: Any objections? It seems to me there's no objections,

19 so your request is granted.

20 We'll break for ten minutes for this equipment to set up. We'll

21 resume at ten past 3.00.

22 --- Break taken at 3:00 p.m.

23 --- On resuming at 3.14 p.m.

24 JUDGE LIU: Good afternoon, Witness.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

Page 5177

1 JUDGE LIU: Would you please stand up. Would you please make the

2 solemn declaration in accordance with the paper the usher is showing to

3 you.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

5 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

6 JUDGE LIU: You may sit down, please.

7 WITNESS: WITNESS KK

8 [Witness answered through interpreter]

9 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Bos.

10 MR. BOS: Thank you, Your Honour. Before we start, this witness

11 will -- I'm sorry. Before we start, this witness will give testimony

12 about the following counts in the indictment: On superior authority,

13 paragraph 17; on count 1, paragraphs 26, 30, 34(a), 34(b); on counts 9 to

14 12, paragraph 50.

15 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Did you prepare a piece of paper?

16 MR. BOS: Yes, Your Honour, and I think the usher has it in his

17 hand.

18 Examined by Mr. Bos:

19 Q. Witness, the Trial Chamber has granted the protective measures you

20 have requested, which means that your face -- the image of your face will

21 be distorted and your voice will also be distorted, and you will be given

22 a pseudonym. Now, the usher has a sheet of paper which has your name and

23 the name of the pseudonym on it. Could you please look at it and confirm

24 that what's on the paper is indeed your name.

25 A. Yes.

Page 5178

1 THE REGISTRAR: This piece of paper is entered as PW37.

2 MR. BOS:

3 Q. Witness, as you probably saw on the paper, your pseudonym is KK.

4 So I won't refer to your name, but I will refer to you as Witness KK. Do

5 you understand that?

6 A. Yes, I understand.

7 MR. BOS: May I proceed, Your Honour?

8 JUDGE LIU: Yes, please.

9 MR. BOS:

10 Q. Witness KK, where did you live before the 30th of June, 1993?

11 A. I lived in Rastani.

12 Q. And with whom did you live there?

13 A. With my family, my mother and father, sister and brother.

14 Q. And what age did you have around that time?

15 A. I was 16 going on 17.

16 Q. And how old was your brother?

17 A. My brother was younger than I by a year and a half.

18 Q. Now, could you tell the Court what happened on the 30th of June,

19 1993.

20 A. We were in the neighbourhood that we lived in when we heard the

21 shooting. There were shells falling, so we sought shelter in an

22 improvised shelter where we stayed for some time. My father went out to

23 see what was going on. He didn't come back for a long time. Then we

24 decided to go out and see where he was. We found him with his hands

25 raised, and a soldier was standing next to him ordering all of us to come

Page 5179

1 out of the shelter and to line up there.

2 Q. Did you recognise from which army this soldier was?

3 A. He had the HVO patch on him.

4 Q. Did you also find out who actually shelled your village?

5 A. I did not.

6 Q. Could you tell me what this soldier did, what happened afterwards?

7 A. He told us to take a white flag and to head towards town.

8 Q. Did he direct this to your family or also to other people in the

9 village of Rastani?

10 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness repeat his answer.

11 MR. BOS:

12 Q. Please repeat your answer. The interpreters didn't pick up your

13 answer.

14 A. His rifle was pointing upwards.

15 Q. Sorry. Maybe you misunderstood my question. My question was, he

16 told you and your family to go -- to take a white flag and to go towards

17 Mostar. Did he say this also to other people of Rastani, or was it just

18 to your family only?

19 A. Yes, to the others as well.

20 Q. And how many others are we talking about, then?

21 A. About 11 people.

22 Q. Where these other people neighbours -- members -- were these other

23 people also villagers of Rastani?

24 A. Neighbours.

25 Q. So then, so you were ordered to go to Mostar. And is that,

Page 5180

1 indeed, what you did?

2 A. Yes, we headed towards Mostar.

3 Q. What did you do when you arrived in Mostar?

4 A. When we arrived in Mostar, we went to the student hostel to see if

5 anybody would put us up. However, there wasn't any room there, so we went

6 to the Splitska Road to stay with cousins.

7 Q. So you and your whole family went to stay with your cousin. Now,

8 what happened when you were there at your cousin's place?

9 A. When we arrived, we entered the apartment and sat down. And

10 shortly after that, soldiers came and took my cousin away.

11 Q. Let me just ask you one question: Your cousin's apartment - and

12 you don't have to refer to the street name - but is it located in West or

13 East Mostar?

14 A. In West Mostar.

15 Q. Now, you were saying that your cousin was taken away by HVO

16 soldiers. Was anyone else taken away except for your cousin?

17 A. Not from that apartment.

18 Q. What happened after that, after your cousin was taken away?

19 A. The next day, they came again and took my father and uncle.

20 Q. Do you know where they were taken to?

21 A. At the time, I didn't know.

22 Q. Did you later find out where they were taken to; and where was it,

23 if you did?

24 A. I learned later that they took them first to Dretelj and then to

25 the Heliodrom.

Page 5181

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 5182

1 Q. Now, what did you do when your father and your uncle were taken

2 away? I suppose you remained with your mother, your sister, and your

3 brother. Is that correct?

4 A. Yes, we stayed there.

5 Q. For how long did you stay there?

6 A. About three months.

7 Q. What did you do during these three months?

8 A. I was in hiding. Occasionally, we would go out to get some water

9 and food that we needed to survive.

10 Q. And what happened after that three months?

11 A. One evening, soldiers came. They knocked at the door and told us

12 to come out of the apartment and to give them the keys.

13 Q. Do you remember the date of that evening, which date that was?

14 A. Yes, I do. The 29th of September.

15 Q. You said that soldiers came and took you out of your apartment.

16 From which armies were these soldiers?

17 A. HVO.

18 Q. Where did they take you to?

19 A. They took us to the city dairy.

20 Q. And what happened at the city dairy? Well, let me first ask

21 another question. Were other people also -- except for your family, were

22 other people also taken to the city dairy, as far as you know?

23 A. Yes, there were other people there too.

24 Q. All right. And what -- could you give an approximate number of

25 people who were taken there?

Page 5183

1 A. There were some 20 people there, in my judgement.

2 Q. And were these people all civilians?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And would you know -- would you know what ethnic background these

5 people had?

6 A. Muslims.

7 Q. Tell me what happened when you were all gathered there in front of

8 this dairy.

9 A. There was a truck there onto which they loaded women and children,

10 and the men were separated to one side.

11 Q. With how many men were you?

12 A. Eight.

13 Q. And what happened afterwards?

14 A. We got into a jeep, and they drove us to -- to -- to the

15 headquarters.

16 Q. To the -- whose headquarters did they drive you to?

17 A. Stela's headquarters.

18 Q. Now, did you later find out where the women and children were

19 taken to?

20 A. At the time, I didn't know.

21 Q. Did you later find out where they were taken to?

22 A. I later learnt that they were transferred to the east bank of the

23 river.

24 Q. And from whom did you learn this?

25 A. I learned that afterwards, when I came home.

Page 5184

1 Q. But who told you so?

2 A. My mother.

3 Q. Now, you said that you were taken to the headquarters of Stela.

4 Now, can you tell us what happened when -- when you arrived there?

5 A. We got off the jeep and entered the room.

6 Q. Which room did you enter?

7 A. The cellar.

8 Q. What happened after that?

9 A. We stopped there, we lined up, got -- got our personal effects.

10 We had to take out all the personal effects, cigarettes, lighters, things

11 that we had on us.

12 Q. And after that?

13 A. After that, a gentleman came who said he was Stela and said that

14 we'd be there and work there and that there would be no problems.

15 Q. Could you describe this gentleman you've been referring to as

16 Stela?

17 A. Well, big, short hair, round head.

18 Q. Approximately what age would you -- if you know?

19 A. Well, I'd say around 30.

20 Q. Now, you've been referring to that building as Stela's

21 headquarters. What made you think that this was the headquarters of

22 Stela?

23 A. Well, we simply got there and he came there. What else could I

24 think?

25 Q. But why do you think that, that it was his headquarters?

Page 5185

1 A. Well, because there were soldiers there, and simply that's the

2 feeling I had.

3 Q. Now, if this was Stela's headquarters, what was the unit which

4 would be housed in this headquarters?

5 A. You mean the name?

6 Q. Yes.

7 A. Well, I heard that some were called Mrmak.

8 Q. Do you know any other names, because you say "some were called

9 Mrmak"?

10 A. And that one, the patch, Vinko Skrobo.

11 Q. Now, you said you were taken to the basement. I'd like you --

12 first of all, let me ask you, how long did you stay in this headquarters

13 of Stela?

14 A. We stayed there for about an hour.

15 Q. No, I mean in general. How long did you stay in that building?

16 A. About eight months.

17 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Yes, Mr. Par.

18 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Mr. President, perhaps it is time to

19 address you regarding the period of time when the witness was there. He

20 just said that he spent eight months at this Stela's headquarters, that he

21 arrived in September '93 there. I therefore, think, that this is a period

22 of time which is beyond the scope of the indictment for about four

23 months. So could note be taken of this in further examination. When the

24 witness is asked about certain incidents, it should be pointed out what

25 time the Prosecutor is referring to so that we keep within the time period

Page 5186

1 defined by the indictment. Thank you.

2 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Bos. Would you please clear it up.

3 MR. BOS: I'm not sure what I need to clear up. I think the scope

4 of the indictment runs further than September '93; it runs into '94 as

5 well.

6 JUDGE LIU: The witness said that he stayed for eight months in

7 that place.

8 MR. BOS: Yes.

9 JUDGE LIU: And when was he released?

10 MR. BOS: Well, we'll get to that, but he was released on the 25th

11 of May, 1994.

12 JUDGE LIU: So all the incidents that he is going to testify

13 happened in the later '93 or early '94, I guess.

14 MR. BOS: Well, I have to clarify that, as we go along in the

15 statement. And I'll ask the witness if he remembers when certain things

16 happened. But, you know, as we know with a lot of witnesses, they have

17 difficulties recalling exact dates when certain things happened.

18 JUDGE LIU: Of course. This is what we want you to clear up for

19 us.

20 MR. BOS: I'll do as much as I can, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE LIU: Thank you, you may proceed.

22 MR. BOS:

23 Q. Witness, I think the last question I asked you is whether you

24 could -- could you please give a description, since you stayed for about

25 eight months in this house, could you give us a description of what the

Page 5187

1 interior of the house looked like. First of all, how many floors did this

2 house have?

3 A. There was the cellar, there was the ground floor, and one top

4 floor.

5 Q. And what was in the cellar? How many rooms did the cellar have?

6 A. There were three rooms there.

7 Q. What were these rooms used for?

8 A. I didn't see anything there.

9 Q. So there was nothing in the basement? These were all empty

10 rooms? Is that what you're saying?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Let's move up to the first floor. Could you describe what was on

13 the first floor.

14 A. Well, three rooms again. One served as an office, and another one

15 was a storeroom.

16 Q. Now, you said one served as an office. Whose office was this?

17 A. Stela's.

18 Q. You said that the other room was used for storage. What kind of

19 things were stored in this room?

20 A. Well, food and ammunition.

21 Q. And the third room?

22 A. It was empty as far as I know.

23 Q. And I think there was also a second floor. What was on the second

24 floor?

25 A. There were three rooms again, and that is where we stayed. That

Page 5188

1 is, we stayed -- we used two rooms.

2 Q. You refer to "we." To whom do you refer to?

3 A. The prisoners.

4 Q. And how many prisoners were there?

5 A. About eight.

6 Q. You've stated that this building was the headquarters of Stela's

7 unit, and you have been referring to Stela's unit as "Mrmak" and "Vinko

8 Skrobo." Now, could you tell me, do you know any of the names of the

9 soldiers who were members of this unit?

10 A. I do, yes. Nino Pehar called Dolma, Ernest Takac, Semir Bosnjic

11 called Sema, Buhovac nicknamed Hecko, and Dubi.

12 Q. For the sake of the transcript, I want to make sure the names are

13 spelled correctly. The second person you referred to, could you repeat

14 that name and spell out his last name, please? It was Ernest Takac.

15 A. Ernest Takac, called Brada, which means "beard."

16 Q. The last person you've been referring to is Dubi. Is that a

17 nickname, and would you remember his full name?

18 A. That is the nickname of the man called Dubravko Pehar.

19 Q. Okay. I see that it's spelled right. Now, did you ever speak

20 with any of these persons you've been just mentioning?

21 A. Not directly.

22 Q. How did you learn their names?

23 A. Why, I heard them while I was there.

24 Q. How often would you see these people at Stela's headquarters?

25 A. Almost daily.

Page 5189

1 Q. What kind of clothes would these people wear?

2 A. Well, depends. Some had multicolored ones, others had

3 olive-green/grey.

4 Q. Did they always have military uniforms on?

5 A. Well, I'd say yes.

6 Q. Did they have patches?

7 A. I didn't see them at the time, only later.

8 Q. Now, you said that later on you saw some patches. Could you

9 describe the patch which they had on?

10 A. It was the emblem, a head and a sword through it.

11 Q. You say it was the emblem. The emblem of what? Can you be a bit

12 more specific, please? And was there anything written on the patch as

13 well?

14 A. Why, "Vinko Skrobo."

15 Q. And how did the emblem look like?

16 A. Well, like that, like -- what do you call it? A shield.

17 MR. BOS: Could the witness be shown Exhibit 51. Could that be

18 placed on the ELMO, please.

19 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Meek.

20 MR. MEEK: Mr. President, Your Honours, while they're looking for

21 this Exhibit P51, could perhaps the record reflect whether this witness

22 had observed this emblem before or after the end of January of 1994?

23 Because the indictment ends at the end of January 1994 and he stayed until

24 May. Thank you.

25 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Meek, don't you think it's too early to

Page 5190

1 raise this issue at this moment? You have full opportunity to

2 cross-examine this witness when your turn comes.

3 MR. MEEK: Yes, Your Honour. I will never think it's too early to

4 raise an issue, but I can wait.

5 JUDGE LIU: Yes. You know, sometimes it's difficult for us to

6 judge whether it's within the scope of the indictment or outside the scope

7 of the indictment until we hear the complete story by the witness.

8 MR. BOS:

9 Q. Now, Witness, if you look at the screen. And if you want to see

10 it more clearly, you can also look at the overhead projector. Do you

11 recognise this photograph or picture?

12 A. I do, yes.

13 Q. What does it reflect?

14 A. One can see the chequerboard, a head, and a sword through it, and

15 the name "Vinko Skrobo."

16 Q. So is this the patch that you saw on the arms of the soldiers in

17 Stela's unit?

18 A. Yes.

19 MR. BOS: Thank you. That's it for the exhibit.

20 JUDGE CLARK: For the Judge's curiosity, can you tell her who is

21 the man who is depicted on that? Who is the face that appears there?

22 MR. BOS: Are you asking me this question or the witness?

23 JUDGE CLARK: I'm asking you, Mr. Bos, and you can find out for

24 us.

25 MR. BOS: We will find out for you, Your Honour.

Page 5191

1 That's fine for the exhibit.

2 Q. Witness, could you describe what your daily tasks were while you

3 were staying at Stela's headquarters?

4 A. Well, I went to the front line, fortified it, cleaned, washed.

5 Q. You say that you cleaned and washed. Where did you do this and

6 what did you clean and wash?

7 A. Well, mostly the headquarters.

8 Q. And you say you also worked on the confrontation line. How often

9 would you -- how often would you work there?

10 A. Well, when necessary.

11 Q. Could you give a rough estimate. Would that be every day or two

12 or three times a week or once a month?

13 A. Well, depends. Every three or four days.

14 Q. Were you asked to do this right after you were detained -- right

15 after you arrived at Stela's headquarters? Was this straight after you

16 were taken there that you had to work at the confrontation line?

17 A. After two days.

18 Q. Now, if you say that you had to work at the confrontation line,

19 could you be -- tell us a bit more in detail what type of things that you

20 had to do.

21 A. Well, I had to carry the bags, pile them up, dig, clean.

22 MR. BOS: Could the witness be shown Exhibit 14.4. And I will ask

23 the witness to make some demarcations on it, so I have here a clean copy

24 if that suits. And if it could be put on the ELMO, again, please.

25 Q. Now, Witness, take your time and look at this photograph and see

Page 5192

1 if you can familiarise with what's on the photograph. Do you recognise

2 what's on the photograph?

3 A. Well, I recognise a street. It's the Bulevar.

4 Q. Now, does this photograph -- can you indicate on this photograph

5 where you usually had to work while you were working on the confrontation

6 line? You should point on the photograph on the ELMO.

7 A. Here, here, this building here.

8 Q. You've said that you worked on several occasions at the

9 confrontation line. Was it always in front of that building, or was it

10 sometimes somewhere else as well?

11 A. Well, mostly inside that building and behind it.

12 Q. Now, I'm going to ask if the usher can give you a marker, and if

13 you can mark the area where you would normally work. So make a circle

14 around the area where you were usually assigned for your tasks at the

15 confrontation line.

16 A. [Marks]

17 Q. Thank you. Now, Witness, would you work there alone, or would

18 there also be other prisoners working with you?

19 A. There were others working there, too. I wasn't alone there.

20 Q. And whilst you were there, did you ever see any of the prisoners

21 get wounded?

22 A. I did not.

23 Q. And whilst you were there, did you ever see prisoners get beaten?

24 A. I did not see him being beaten, but I did see a man with bruises.

25 Q. And that was at the confrontation line?

Page 5193

1 A. Why, yes.

2 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Seric.

3 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, this is a very leading

4 question. The Prosecutor testified by asking his question.

5 JUDGE LIU: Yes, I agree with the Defence counsel. It is a

6 leading question. You don't have to show him the locations.

7 MR. BOS: I was just trying to clarify whether it was actually in

8 that area, because -- well, I'll continue, Your Honour.

9 Q. Now, Witness, whilst being at Tuta's headquarters -- sorry, whilst

10 being at Stela's headquarters -- I'm sorry --

11 JUDGE CLARK: [Microphone not activated]

12 MR. BOS:

13 Q. Witness KK, while being at Stela's headquarters, was there ever a

14 time that an important person visited the headquarters?

15 A. Well, once one day when I was there, I was told -- we were told to

16 go inside. We did. And I peeped through a window, and I saw a man with a

17 grey beard, but that was only a glimpse I had. And later on, I heard from

18 those others that it was Tuta.

19 Q. And do you approximately recall when this was, when this

20 happened? A month would be sufficient.

21 A. The third perhaps.

22 Q. What do you mean by "the third"?

23 A. March.

24 Q. Thank you.

25 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik.

Page 5194

1 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] If I may ask which year, March of

2 which year, for the record. Thank you.

3 MR. BOS: Yes.

4 Q. If you could repeat what year it was.

5 A. 1994.

6 Q. Witness, did you ever -- I'm looking at the clock. I have a few

7 more questions, but they're not too many. So I don't know if I can try to

8 finish my examination-in-chief or if we should stop it.

9 JUDGE LIU: Well, you may proceed for a few minutes, but no longer

10 than ten minutes.

11 MR. BOS: I think I can finish in ten minutes.

12 JUDGE LIU: Yes. You may resume.

13 MR. BOS:

14 Q. Witness, whilst you were in Stela's headquarters, did you ever

15 witness any beatings?

16 A. Personally, I did not see -- personally, with my own eyes, I did

17 not see anyone beaten, but I did see people with bruises.

18 Q. Were you ever beaten?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Was your brother ever beaten?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Now -- and I'm going to ask you a question which may be a bit

23 difficult, but if you say that you saw prisoners with bruises, could you

24 say whether you saw these prisoners with bruises also before January

25 1994?

Page 5195

1 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik.

2 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I'm afraid that the witness is being

3 asked to speculate and that is my objection.

4 JUDGE LIU: Well, it's -- yes, Mr. Seric.

5 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I'd like to add that

6 before that, one has to establish whether the witness can remember that

7 time or not and then ask him to specify it.

8 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Bos, you may proceed according to the

9 directions given by the Defence counsel on this particular question.

10 MR. BOS:

11 Q. Witness, in the first few months of your detention, did you ever

12 come across prisoners who had bruises?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And could you describe what kind of bruises these prisoners had?

15 A. Well, they were bruised on their heads, their bodies.

16 Q. And would you know the names of some of these prisoners who you

17 saw who had bruises?

18 A. I remember Asim Mustafic. Yes. He sticks in my memory best. And

19 Edin Kasumacic.

20 Q. Anyone else?

21 A. I don't think any other name comes to my mind right now.

22 Q. Could you briefly explain what happened on the 25th of May, 1994.

23 MR. MEEK: Your Honours, may it please the Trial Chamber, that is

24 way, way outside of the scope of the indictment by four months, and we

25 strongly object to this testimony.

Page 5196

1 JUDGE LIU: First, there should be a division of the labour, as

2 I've told you already. I see Mr. Krsnik was standing but you take his

3 place. This is the first thing.

4 The second thing is that according to Rule 93, that this Trial

5 Chamber will hear any witnesses that are giving the evidence of a

6 consistent pattern of the conduct related to serious violations of the

7 international humanitarian law. We don't know what happened on that date,

8 and we would like to hear it. It might be outside the scope of the

9 indictment, but we have to know what happened on that day. When we

10 evaluate the evidence in the later stage, we will take the full

11 consideration of the objections offered by Mr. Meek.

12 You may proceed, Mr. Bos.

13 MR. BOS:

14 Q. Witness, could you explain what happened on the 25th of May, 1994?

15 A. On the 25th of May, yes.

16 Q. Please do.

17 A. My brother and I escaped then.

18 Q. How did you manage to escape?

19 A. It was daytime, an ordinary day. We were in the garden of the

20 cafe, about 4.00 or 5.00. There was some problems. There was a fight

21 somewhere, and they all left. And we stayed behind, and -- the two of us,

22 and we decided to flee. And that's how it happened.

23 Q. Just a few more questions on -- you've mentioned a cafe. You said

24 you were in the garden of the cafe. Which cafe was this?

25 A. It was a coffee bar at the headquarters in which Stela was number

Page 5197

1 one.

2 Q. You say that the coffee bar was at the headquarters. Do you mean

3 was it in the building of the headquarters?

4 A. No, no, right next to that building, across the way.

5 Q. You say that Stela was number one in this cafe. What do you mean

6 by that?

7 A. He was the boss, the owner.

8 Q. And who would come and have drinks in this cafe?

9 A. Soldiers, anyone who wanted would come.

10 Q. And just one last question: Do you know the name of the street

11 where Stela's house was situated?

12 A. It was called the Kalemova Street.

13 Q. And this cafe which was next to the building. Was that also

14 situated on the same street?

15 A. Yes.

16 MR. BOS: I have no further questions, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

18 Witness, I have to warn you, as I did with all other witnesses,

19 please do not speak to anyone about your evidence until your testimony has

20 been completed and do not let anybody speak to you about it. Thank you.

21 MR. BOS: Your Honours, if I may, one small thing.

22 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Bos.

23 MR. BOS: Because I think tomorrow morning, we examine another

24 witness. And I think it may be good if the witness is informed of this,

25 because otherwise, he may expect to come back first thing in the morning.

Page 5198

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 5199

1 JUDGE LIU: Yes, I will instruct the registrar to inform him about

2 the schedule tomorrow, and the day after tomorrow.

3 MR. BOS: Thank you.

4 JUDGE LIU: We are adjourned until 9.30 tomorrow morning.

5 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

6 4.07 p.m., to be reconvened on

7 Wednesday, the 8th day of November, 2001,

8 at 9.30 a.m.

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25