1 Thursday, 8 November 2001
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.33 a.m.
5 JUDGE LIU: Call the case, please.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Case Number IT-98-34-T, the Prosecutor versus
7 Mladen Naletilic, aka Tuta, and Vinko Martinovic, aka Stela.
8 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Madam Registrar, did you take the solemn
9 declaration made by the interpreter this morning?
10 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.
12 And who do you wish to be the next witness, Mr. Scott?
13 MR. SCOTT: It will be me, Your Honour. Good morning. The next
14 witness will be a member of the Spanish army. As with the prior Spanish
15 army witness, the witness requested to have facial protection and a
16 pseudonym, and there may be times when private session would be necessary
17 concerning Rule 70 matters. The reasons are the same as those stated with
18 the prior witness.
19 JUDGE LIU: Well, I wonder whether the legal counsel for the
20 Spanish government will be present this morning.
21 MR. SCOTT: My understanding is yes, the same legal officer who
22 was here on Tuesday, I guess it was, yes, will be here again.
23 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
24 Are there any objections from Defence counsel?
25 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. So I believe that the same conditions will
2 apply to the presence of that legal counsel during the following
4 Would you please call the witness.
5 Yes, Mr. Krsnik.
6 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, thank you very much.
7 While we are waiting for the witness, just a short question, because of
8 some duties that I have tomorrow afternoon, I merely wanted to ask whether
9 we shall be working tomorrow afternoon because I have to go on a short and
10 urgent trip. Rather, we shall work tomorrow morning; I know that we are
11 working every day. We do not have those breaks as in some other cases
12 exist, and something has come up, and I have to do it tomorrow afternoon.
13 So my question is: Shall we be working tomorrow afternoon or not?
14 JUDGE LIU: Originally, we planned we will sit tomorrow afternoon
15 because we have to make up the time we lost last week. Since you made
16 this request to the Chamber, we will consider your request during the
17 break. I hope I could give you a proper answer after the break. Thank
19 MR. SCOTT: Well, Your Honour, on that point, I just have to say
20 that we would be opposed to not sitting tomorrow. There is co-counsel
21 here. One of the reasons for having co-counsel is so the case can
23 JUDGE LIU: We are only talking about tomorrow afternoon, not for
24 the whole tomorrow.
25 MR. SCOTT: That's what I'm talking about also, tomorrow -- Friday
2 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
3 THE REGISTRAR: The pseudonym for this witness will be LL.
4 [The witness entered court]
5 WITNESS: WITNESS LL
6 [Witness answered through interpreter]
7 JUDGE LIU: Good morning, Witness. Can you hear me?
8 THE WITNESS: Yes, I hear you very well indeed, sir.
9 JUDGE LIU: Would you please stand up and make the solemn
11 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the
12 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
13 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. You may sit down, please.
14 Examined by Mr. Scott:
15 Q. Good morning, Witness. I want to inform you that the Chamber has
16 granted the protective measures, that your facial image will be protected
17 in terms of any broadcast of these proceedings. So your face will not be
18 shown. Also, your true name will not be used, and for that purpose, you
19 will be referred to as "Witness LL." Please understand that no disrespect
20 is intended by that, but it is simply for the purpose of protecting your
21 identity. And in that regard, I will caution you to be mindful yourself
22 of perhaps using your name or saying something that would be of such a
23 nature that it might tend to identify you very specifically.
24 I will also alert you that during some part of your testimony, it
25 may be necessary that we go into what we call private session. The reason
1 for that is -- what "private session" means is that the audio portion,
2 that is, what you are saying or what is being said in the courtroom, will
3 not be heard outside the courtroom, so that for some matters, they will be
4 further protected in that way.
5 Witness LL, is it correct that you are a professional soldier in
6 the Spanish army?
7 A. Yes, it's correct.
8 Q. You currently hold the rank of major?
9 A. Yes. Yes, I am a major.
10 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, my apologies. I've skipped over the
11 piece of paper.
12 Q. Witness LL, I've omitted to show you this paper which makes the
13 record of your true identity without saying your name in the courtroom.
14 Again, for the reasons I've stated previously, don't state your name, but
15 can you say yes or no: Is the name that is on that piece of paper indeed
16 your name?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Thank you.
19 MR. SCOTT: My apology, Mr. President.
20 Q. All right. Witness LL, so you are a professional soldier
21 currently holding the rank of major in the Spanish army?
22 A. Yes, this is correct.
23 Q. You joined the Spanish army academy in 1976 and left the academy
24 in 1982 with the rank of lieutenant?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. You were promoted to the rank of captain in 1986?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. You were promoted to the rank of major in 1994?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Is it correct, sir, that while in the Spanish army, you have
6 served on two peacekeeping missions to Bosnia-Herzegovina, first in 1993
7 and again in 1997?
8 A. This is correct. In the year 1993, with the Malaga group and with
9 the Canarias unit. In 1997 with the Galicia Brigade.
10 Q. Now, directing your attention for purposes of today's testimony to
11 your time there in 1993, is it correct that you were - as you just
12 mentioned - you were in Bosnia-Herzegovina as part of the Spanish army
13 peacekeeping force from January 1993 to approximately the 15th of July,
15 A. Yes, this is correct.
16 Q. And as you mentioned a moment ago, for the first part of this
17 tour, it was with the Malaga Task Force, and for the second part the
18 Canarias group?
19 A. Yes, this is correct.
20 Q. Now, Witness LL, I understand that during this first tour, you
21 were the captain in charge of a unit called the Deep Reconnaissance
23 A. Yes, this is correct. This is "Patrulla de Reconcimiento en
24 Profundidad" in Spanish, Depth Reconnaissance Patrol that belonged to the
25 group of our Special Operations Unit of the legion, BOEL.
1 Q. Would you briefly describe to the Chamber the function or mission
2 of the Deep Reconnaissance Patrol.
3 A. Well, the mission of the Deep Reconnaissance Patrol in the area of
4 responsibility they had in Bosnia-Herzegovina was to provide security to
5 Spanish troops in the area under their responsibility.
6 Q. Now, we have heard from other military witnesses sometimes the
7 terminology such as G-2 or S-2, such terminology is used. Did any such
8 terminology apply to you in your unit, and if so, can you describe that to
10 A. Yes, correct.
11 Q. G-2, S-2 is the person in charge in the higher-ranking officers,
12 everything that has to do with information and security. And my unit
13 worked for this group.
14 Q. For S-2; is that correct?
15 A. Yes, this is correct. The second section at the level of the
16 G-2. G-2 is their highest level.
17 Q. Very well. Now, is it correct that you arrived in Split, Croatia,
18 on approximately the 12th of January, 1993?
19 A. Yes. I was near Split with a unit in a place in Divulje that had
20 been assigned to Spanish troops.
21 Q. And were you able, in fact, before you left, before you departed
22 Spain, to assemble a group of approximately 30 soldiers to comprise this
24 A. Yes. Personally, I chose all the members of my patrol for this
25 very specific mission.
1 Q. Now, you stayed in this village or location near Split for
2 approximately one week; is that correct?
3 A. Yes, correct.
4 Q. And did you and your unit then transfer to a new base of
5 operations or headquarters at Jablanica?
6 A. Yes, this is correct.
7 Q. Can you tell the Chamber a bit more about how your unit was
8 organised? Did you have sub-units in that unit?
9 A. My unit I set up on the basis of carrying out patrols. Each
10 patrol had six -- five or six men, and each patrol was under the command
11 of a sub-officer, an officer or noncommissioned officer, and they covered
12 the whole area of responsibility under Spain's responsibility. Apart from
13 this, we wanted to have permanent contact with these patrols. Therefore,
14 I set up two radio stations with HF system, high-frequency system, in
15 order to be sure that there would be permanent communication between
16 myself and my patrols.
17 Q. Now, as to yourself, Witness LL, did you both operate in the field
18 yourself and also work at the headquarters?
19 A. Yes, at the beginning, I wanted to see how the real situation
20 stood. I wanted to understand the problems in this country, the special
21 circumstances involved. Therefore, I spent much more time in the field.
22 I wanted to have personal contact with the people living there, rather
23 than keep to my office.
24 Q. Can you tell us, in your organisation, in your unit -- or the
25 larger unit, that is, not your individual unit, but in the Spanish army
1 contingent, who was your superior?
2 A. My superior officer in the Malaga Task Force was the head of
3 Malaga Task Force, Commander Fontella. And then in the operations area,
4 he became lieutenant-colonel. Now, later, with the Canarias Tactical
5 Group, I was under Major Acuna, who was head of the second section of the
6 Canarias group.
7 Q. All right. Now, I want you to go to -- to direct your attention
8 to March of 1993. At that time, did you establish a detachment of your
9 unit in Mostar itself?
10 A. Yes. The head of HQ, Major Fontella, asked me to leave Jablanica
11 and go to Mostar in order to set up contacts with the factions, the two
12 factions, HVO and Armija. Therefore, I took with me several patrols, set
13 them up in Mostar.
14 But I was ordered by Commander Fontella to go to Medjugorje. And
15 with this, it was much easier for me to set up contacts, both in Mostar
16 and in the surroundings of Mostar, Citluk, Ljubski, Slavina, Kresevo,
17 et cetera.
18 Q. Now, around this time or before that, had the overall Spanish army
19 contingent located its principal base at Medjugorje?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Now, your unit produced certain reports called INTREPs,
22 I-N-T-R-E-P, and INTSUMs, I-N-T-S-U-M. Is that correct?
23 A. Yes, this is correct. Information was used to draft the INTREPs,
24 the INTSUMs, and the SITREPs, which were reports on situation, so for the
25 third section of the HQ that dealt with operations.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Q. Can you tell us briefly what the difference is between an INTREP
2 and an INTSUM?
3 A. An INTREP is a summary of information which refers to one specific
4 day. An INTSUM is a summary of information that has to do with a longer
5 period of time, let's say, 10 to 15 days. The INTSUM, therefore, gathers
6 all the data, all the information from all the daily INTREPs, and the
7 INTSUM refers to all these INTREPs. We could say that it's a sort of
8 summary of several INTREPs.
9 Q. Do these INTREPs and INTSUMs sometimes not simply report
10 information but also provide or involve some analysis?
11 A. Yes, indeed. The INTREPs or the INTSUMs usually have a small
12 commentary made by the person who is drafting the report, sort of an
13 analysis of all the information that has been included in the report.
14 Q. In your unit, the Deep Reconnaissance Patrol, who performed the
15 analysis in that unit?
16 A. I was the person who had the responsibility of drafting the
17 INTREPs and doing the analysis, but then these later could be completed by
18 the commander in chief or by the second section of the HQ.
19 Q. And these reports that your unit made, they would be sent to who?
20 A. All these reports would leave the Malaga Task Force or the
21 Canarias Task Force and be sent to the multinational division southeast,
22 and to the rapid action section of the Spanish army.
23 Q. During your first tour in Bosnia in 1993, what was your overall
24 assessment of the reliability of the information that you were able to
25 obtain and on which these reports were based?
1 A. Well, as far as these reports are concerned, I drafted them
2 basically with regard to contacts I had with military staff, but from both
3 groups, HVO and Armija; also contacts with civilians living in towns
4 and -- and the degree of reliability had to do with the fact that somebody
5 was giving me the information, this friend that was giving me information,
6 wanted to tell the truth to me or not. And then we could later carry out
7 a contrast to see whether, in real fact, there was this attack or whether
8 people were transferred from one town or another, whether this really
9 happened as the information I had received beforehand said it would.
10 Q. All right. Now, Witness LL, is it accurate to say that as your
11 tour, your first tour, extended into approximately the April period, did
12 you see the situation in the Spanish army's area of responsibility
13 becoming more difficult with the tensions between the Croats and the
15 A. Yes, indeed. Tension developed, escalated. Insecurity developed
16 as well. Problems increased progressively, and I realised that this was
17 happening when the Malaga group was relieved by the Canarias.
18 Q. And the Canarias group came in approximately when, early to
20 A. Yes. I am unable to tell you the exact date, the exact day in
21 April. I think that the date is in the documents. However, I do believe
22 it was in April when the one group relieved the other. And Colonel Zorzo
23 and Colonel Morales were the two officers involved in this operation.
24 Q. Can you tell the Chamber, during this time and thereafter, through
25 the remainder of your first tour, did the Spanish army have complete
1 freedom of movement in the area, in its area of responsibility?
2 A. No. This freedom of action, freedom of movement always depended
3 on the -- well, on the readiness of various patrols of the factions on the
4 ground, either at the checkpoints or under the orders that were given
5 them. And then our freedom depended on that, whether we could carry
6 out -- whether we could move or carry out our actions.
7 However - sorry - once -- once we obtained the authority to enter
8 a town and patrol a town, we could not again move freely, because that was
9 not our own country. So we had, of course, to act under certain
10 limitations regarding the population, regarding the military, and above
11 all, not to interfere or not to upset either of the two factions.
12 Q. Are you familiar, sir, with what's called an OrBat?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Can you briefly explain to the Chamber what an OrBat is?
15 A. OrBat is an organigramme. It is a graph showing the composition
16 of units in an army, and it can be extended with names of the commanders,
17 the composition of the units, the armaments, their materiel, their areas
18 of responsibility, and so on and so forth.
19 Q. And the term itself, "OrBat," is that essentially an abbreviation
20 for "Order of Battle"?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Can you tell the Chamber whether during the time of the transition
23 from the Malaga force to the Canarias group, did you perceive that either
24 of the warring sides, any of the warring sides, took advantage, if you
25 will, of this transition period in terms of perhaps the International
1 Community understanding its organisation and structure?
2 A. I think that yes, the transition period at the time when one unit
3 was relieved by another in Bosnia-Herzegovina was a very critical moment
4 for us since one unit has to brief very well and explain everything to the
5 relieving unit. That time overlapped in time with a moment of tension,
6 with a major movement of people and vehicles on the roads, and I can tell
7 you that we passed some very difficult moments. It took us quite some
8 time to be able to establish the state of the units and to find out about
9 their intentions.
10 Q. Can you assist the Chamber with whether those difficulties were
11 more pronounced with one of the warring parties than the other?
12 A. I wanted to establish the same contacts with all these units, but
13 it turned up that there was much more movement on the part of the HVO,
14 much more change on the part of the HVO than in the BH army.
15 Q. Now, I want to direct your attention to a time. Were you
16 introduced at some point to a man named Ivan Andabak?
17 A. Yes. I had the opportunity to meet personally that individual.
18 Q. Could you just tell us in a few -- in a moment or two the
19 circumstances in which you met Mr. Andabak and where you were when that
20 happened and what was taking place?
21 A. That individual was -- that person was introduced to me by the
22 Colonel Zorzo, who was the commander of the Malaga Tactical Group. That
23 person was the colonel of the special forces of the HVO at the time. And
24 since I also came from the special forces, we communicated very easily,
25 and that also means that there was a mutual confidence, that we trusted
1 one another.
2 Q. Do you know how it was that Colonel Zorzo had come to know
3 Mr. Andabak?
4 A. I don't.
5 Q. Can you tell the Chamber, please, is it correct that Mr. Andabak
6 was married to a Spanish woman and in fact had himself lived in Spain for
7 a time?
8 A. Yes. After the close communication with this person whom I
9 respected, whom I held in high respect, and others, he told me that he was
10 in Spain in Tito's time and that he was married to a Spanish lady called
11 Juani. I had the opportunity to meet both her and her daughter or their
12 daughter at a dinner to which I was invited in the house where
13 Colonel Andabak and his family lived at the time.
14 Q. All right. Let me stop you there for a moment. Before we
15 continue about the dinner, did Andabak also speak fluent Spanish?
16 A. Yes. And this allowed me to establish a much higher level of
17 confidence to discuss personal topics in a military environment, to talk
18 about family matters, to talk about children, to talk about the conflict.
19 And in this way, I could manage to incorporate myself, to integrate myself
20 in the problems that existed in the country, the intentions of the two
21 sides, and to thus try to help and to try to achieve, to obtain a clear
22 picture of the general situation in order to see whether one of the
23 intentions or some of the -- there could be some plans or some attempts
24 against the Spanish forces, something that could threaten their security.
25 Q. During your tour in Bosnia in 1993, did you meet anyone else with
1 the HVO that spoke fluent Spanish?
2 A. At present, I don't remember meeting any other HVO members with a
3 knowledge of Spanish.
4 Q. That enabled you, sir, to have particular contact with
5 Mr. Andabak; correct?
6 A. Yes. We talked quite a lot, and we met frequently, whether by
7 accident or because we had set these meetings. This was very pleasant for
8 both of us. If he or I went to Mostar, and then we'd stop and talk. It
9 was very pleasant.
10 Q. Witness LL, I hope I'm not stepping on something that you would
11 consider to be sensitive, but I would think as a general matter, it was no
12 secret that part of what you were trying to do was obtain information from
13 various people that you met during your tour in Bosnia. Is that correct?
14 A. Yes, that is correct. One of my tasks was indeed to obtain
15 whatever information possible about the intentions of both sides at the
16 time, because we were not -- we were not there to be served but to serve
17 the people of Bosnia-Herzegovina and to help them to bring about peace and
18 ensure humanitarian aid.
19 Q. But whatever relationship you indeed had with Mr. Andabak, I take
20 it, sir, what you're telling the Chamber is this was not an entirely
21 social relationship.
22 A. Absolutely. All the social activities that would be initiated by
23 me would be driven by this chief motive, to obtain information.
24 Socialisation, social contacts were a way of -- in which we could gain
25 confidence and, thus, obtain information.
1 Q. Now, before we come back to this dinner, which I believe you've
2 told us was at Mr. Andabak's house, can you just tell the Chamber, during
3 your tour in 1993, approximately how many times in total were you at
4 Mr. Andabak's house?
5 A. Well, I don't really quite remember it right now, but I was -- I
6 received such invitations to his residence, to his house, on some five or
7 six different occasions, from the first day I met him until the final day
8 in July when I went to say goodbye; not only to him but primarily to his
9 wife and his family. They were Spaniards, and I wanted to say how happy I
10 was to have met them.
11 Q. Now, going back to this dinner, did you meet some other Bosnian
12 Croat at this dinner at Andabak's house, the first one that you mentioned
13 a few minutes ago?
14 A. Yes, I met the whole family of Ivan Andabak. I met his deputy,
15 and I also met his friend, a friend who was very important to him, and
16 that was Tuta.
17 Q. Who introduced you to Tuta at that dinner?
18 A. The formal introductions were made by Mr. Ivan Andabak.
19 Q. Can you tell the Chamber, please, how it was, if you remember,
20 what words did Mr. Andabak use in introducing Tuta to you and saying who
21 he was?
22 A. Well, after all these years, I cannot really repeat the words.
23 But what he said, that this was a very influential person both in the
24 world of politics and in the world of economy of business and in military
25 life, and that it was his commander, that he worked with him and that he
1 was first and foremost his friend.
2 Q. Just now you said, "And that he was his commander." Please
3 explain between these two individuals, Andabak and Tuta, who was whose
5 A. During the conversation at that time, I understood that Tuta
6 issued orders to Ivan Andabak, that he was the commander, that Ivan
7 Andabak was the chief of his special forces. But above him, there was
8 Tuta, who planned operations or, perhaps, made a recommendation regarding
9 the instructions, regarding the operations.
10 Q. Did you come to know the base of operation, so to speak, for Tuta
11 and Andabak during 1993?
12 A. Yes. I came to know both the building which housed Ivan Andabak's
13 office, his headquarters, and another building which -- where he was --
14 where he often spent time, too, a different building from the other one.
15 Q. Let me go back to what you observed about the relationship between
16 Andabak and Tuta during that evening or any other time. When you saw the
17 two of them interact with one another, can you tell the Chamber, was one
18 of them more deferential to the other, treat the other as, again, one's
20 A. Well, at the time, regarding this kind of relationship, you know,
21 you were at a dinner, which is very agreeable, and you don't notice much
22 the hierarchy. What I could see was the friendship which existed between
23 Andabak and Tuta. As for the deference, I could see that he was very
24 happy, that he was very happy, very glad to be with Tuta, to be his
25 friend; I could see that. Tuta was very smart, very dignified, highly
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 ranking socially, and quite evidently above Ivan Andabak's level.
2 Q. Now, during or after dinner that evening, did you have a
3 conversation, ongoing conversation, with Andabak and Tuta for several
5 A. Yes. It was a rather long dinner, and there was a lot -- there
6 were long conversations there, and there we had the opportunity to learn
7 about Ivan Andabak's life and Tuta's, because that time, everybody was
8 relaxed, there was mutual trust. And there we learned the histories of
9 both those persons, why they were in their situation, what were their
10 intentions, and why precisely they were in Bosnia and Herzegovina.
11 Q. Let me ask you a couple questions following on that. Did Tuta
12 himself tell you some of his personal history? Did he tell you in his own
13 words about himself?
14 A. Yes. He, in a way, supplied me with a summary of the story of his
15 life, why he was in that particular situation at the time. He created the
16 impression of a man who had left all the commitments he had outside his
17 country to come and help his country. He wanted to invest all his effort,
18 all that he had to defend the cause of his country and of the Croats.
19 Q. You also said a moment ago that -- you also said that they
20 described their situation and what their intentions were. What did
21 Andabak and Tuta say about their intentions?
22 A. Well, the future was clear at the time to them. They were
23 fighting for a country where Bosnian Croats would predominate, and their
24 intention was to set up the Republic of Herceg-Bosna, expelling the Muslim
25 people from the area.
1 Q. Sir, is that what Tuta and Andabak said, it was their intention,
2 their purpose, to expel all the Muslims?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Was anything said about the role of Mostar in Herceg-Bosna?
5 A. Yes. To them, Mostar could serve as the capital of the -- of that
6 republic, a very important one. It was, for them, the key city with the
7 largest number of population. And they disliked in a way -- but they
8 disliked the presence of Muslims in the area. And because of that, they
9 wanted to try to take precedence and to get rid of the Muslim population
10 in the area, to apply pressure to get rid of the Muslims in the area.
11 Q. All right. Now we're moving on beyond this dinner. Mr. Andabak
12 continued, is it correct, as one of your most regular HVO contacts during
13 your tour?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And who else --
16 A. Sorry. But he was not the only one. I had many other contacts
17 with HVO militaries, because I did not want to focus on him alone.
18 However, he became, for me, one of the pivotal men because it was easy for
19 me to communicate with him in Spanish and because he had come to trust me,
20 perhaps much more than other men, than other military either in the HVO or
21 in the BH army.
22 Q. I want to come back to some of your other contacts in a moment,
23 but I probably omitted one thing that I should have asked you about the
24 dinner at Andabak's house. Was there an interpreter present at this
25 dinner, either provided, if you will, by the Croat side, or one arranged
1 by the Spanish army?
2 A. Yes. Colonel Zorzo had his interpreter with him, I mean the one
3 who always travelled with him, and he was the only one who used that
4 interpreter. But since at the dinner Mr. Tuta spoke Italian, we could, up
5 to a point, converse directly without the need to resort to an
6 interpreter's help.
7 Q. Now, going back to your contacts, apart from Mr. Andabak, you said
8 there were some others. Can you name one or two of your other principal
9 HVO contacts?
10 A. Yes. But I think that this is a professional secret, and I,
11 therefore, cannot tell you which were the sources of information that I
12 had. What I was trying was to see to it that all that Ivan Andabak told
13 me could be also confirmed by -- corroborated by other people, that is, I
14 didn't rely solely on him. And on some occasions, of course, there was no
15 other source because it was much easier for me to see Ivan Andabak than to
16 get into the headquarters and try to talk to a specific person.
17 But, as I must repeat, there were other sources, there were other
18 friends, both in the -- in their main staff and outside it.
19 Q. All right.
20 A. The only one I can mention, because I do not think it is
21 particularly important, there was the head of a brigade which was
22 quartered in Ljubuski who also became a friend. He and -- his name was
23 Tomic, and I met him several times. I visited him at his home on a number
24 of occasions, and we also met in a coffee bar in the area of Ljubuski.
25 Q. Now, during your tour, sir, did you become familiar with such HVO
1 officers -- and I say "familiar." I'm not suggesting necessarily in a
2 personal way, but in the course of your duties, did you become acquainted
3 with the names Petkovic, Bozic, and Lasic, for example?
4 A. Yes. I met those persons and military personnel too, since the
5 contacts with Colonel Zorzo happened on a regular basis. And in almost
6 all cases or most of them, Colonel Zorzo took me along to these meetings.
7 Q. Now, did you consider those, for instance, Petkovic and Bozic, to
8 be the same sort of information contacts as, say, Ivan Andabak was, or
9 were they at some different level?
10 A. Naturally, the level of relationship with them was completely
11 different. They were the top brass. They could inform us openly, and all
12 the information from them could be done in an open and clear form. They
13 could tell us about the general situation and also about the intentions.
14 They could speak about that to Colonel Zorzo. But as with Tomic and as
15 with Andabak, he [as interpreted] pursued perhaps more details, more
16 specific details about the units, the kind of training, the armament they
17 had, the armament they used. And all these questions, when put to
18 gentlemen at a higher level, are less important.
19 Q. Well, just for clarification, you said just now -- at least it
20 came across it the transcript -- it says, "He pursued perhaps more
21 details," et cetera. Who is the "he" that you're referring to there? Or
22 perhaps I don't know if it was translation. Were you referring to
23 yourself, persons that you pursued?
24 A. I personally wanted to get to details. But just as well, they,
25 logically, because there was this flow of personal information, and it
1 didn't cost me anything to tell them about our intentions, because this
2 was open information, very sincere. And I also told them about our
3 intentions, about our assistance. This was something that was a
4 regular -- a regular matter. I mean, it happened all the time between
5 them and myself.
6 Q. Let's go forward, please. You mentioned a few minutes ago that
7 you were aware of -- that Andabak had one or two offices or places where
8 he worked in the city of Mostar. Was one of those in the main
9 headquarters of the HVO General Staff?
10 A. Yes. I think it was on the ground floor. One would enter there
11 and then be able to -- to greet him personally.
12 Q. And do you know -- do you recall anything about the approximate
13 location of this second building where Mr. Andabak had an office?
14 A. Well, I know that that building was not next to the previous
15 building. There was a street which had been blocked by the police or the
16 military of the HVO, and one could -- the situation on the map or the
17 references I have, I don't think I could be able to explain it.
18 Q. Very well. Let me direct your attention to the 7th of May, 1993.
19 Did you see Ivan Andabak on that day?
20 A. Well, the 7th of May exactly, I would have to look at my papers
21 and see whether I could find some notes with this date on it. I saw Ivan
22 Andabak a day or two before the violence escalated in Mostar.
23 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Meek.
24 MR. MEEK: Your Honour -- Mr. President, Your Honours, I notice
25 that this witness is reading from some statement, and I would appreciate
1 it greatly if this witness could tell us what statement he has in front of
2 him that he is reading from in order to answer the questions put forth to
3 him by Mr. Scott.
4 JUDGE LIU: Well, I believe that is a legitimate request.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. This is a statement I made,
6 and I think that everybody has it. I made this statement before, before I
7 came here.
8 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, it's correct that after this witness
9 arrived in The Hague, he was given the opportunity to review his prior
10 statement, as most witnesses are. I must say I did not -- I was not aware
11 that he had it with him. So I will defer to the Chamber's wishes and to
12 have -- if you want to have that withdrawn or ...
13 [Trial Chamber confers]
14 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Meek.
15 MR. MEEK: Mr. President, Your Honours, my problem with this
16 obviously stems from the fact that if the witness cannot remember anything
17 on his own recollection but must refer to a written statement previously
18 made, then we must just put that statement into the record. I cannot
19 cross-examine that statement. It denies my client the right to confront
20 the witnesses against him, if in fact that is the case. If he is just
21 having the statement sitting there in front of him, that would be a
22 different situation. I am unclear at this point if the witness is using
23 that statement for every answer or if he is just using it to refresh his
24 recollection for some questions. Do you understand my position, Your
1 JUDGE LIU: Well, first of all, we have to say that not everybody
2 in this Trial Chamber has got the previous statement made by the witness.
3 Secondly, the live testimony is to hear what the witness is going to tell
4 us on the spot, rather than refer to any previous statement. And before
5 the witness uses any supporting materials, this Chamber should be properly
6 informed about the origin, the source of that material.
7 So, Mr. Scott, could you advise your witness to withdraw that
8 statement in this courtroom.
9 MR. SCOTT: Yes, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
11 MR. SCOTT:
12 Q. Witness LL, I'm going to ask you to --
13 MR. SCOTT: Perhaps the easiest thing is just the usher can just
14 collect that at this time.
15 Q. Witness LL, I'll come back to you in just one moment.
16 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, I would like to make a further record
17 about this, because in my observing the witness since he commenced
18 testifying, he has not -- he has not in fact been making frequent
19 reference to anything in front of him, which is one of the reasons I
20 didn't notice that he had anything there. So I don't want the record to
21 suggest or any comments by counsel to suggest that the witness has been
22 sitting there frequently leafing through a document. I don't think the
23 record would show that.
24 JUDGE CLARK: I think we've noticed that.
25 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Your Honour.
1 Q. Witness LL, let me address you on this, please, so there's no
2 confusion. If on some particular point, you believe your memory is
3 exhausted and it would refresh your memory to review a document, you can
4 indicate that? But of course, as you've heard the president say, what the
5 Chamber is primarily interested in, of course, is your live testimony to
6 the best of your memory.
7 A. Correct.
8 Q. Now, I was asking you about seeing this Mr. Andabak. And perhaps
9 you didn't remember the particular day, but let me give you another point
10 of reference in time, if it will assist you, and maybe you can use that
11 point of reference.
12 Are you familiar with the fact, sir, that on the 9th of May --
13 MR. SCOTT: In fact, Mr. President, I take it it can be hardly
14 disputed at this point in the trial.
15 Q. But on the 9th of May, there was a large military action in
17 A. Yes. On the 9th of May, there was a military event which was, in
18 fact, the attack that occurred between HVO and BH forces in Mostar.
19 Q. All right. Now, I'm not going to go to that just this moment.
20 But with that date in mind, can you tell the Chamber, did you see
21 Mr. Andabak in Mostar a short time before that?
22 A. Yes. I remember that I saw him one evening in his second HQ. I
23 saw Mr. Ivan Andabak, and he was wearing campaign uniform. It was a black
24 uniform. He was wearing grenades. He had arms. He had munition. And I
25 asked him in a direct fashion, "what are you preparing?" And he said that
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 he was preparing, he was preparing himself to go and attack, to carry out
2 military action, and that heads would roll that evening.
3 Q. After hearing this from Mr. Andabak, did you have contact with any
4 other representatives of either side -- or I should, perhaps, with three
5 sides, say any side of the warring factions?
6 A. Yes. I said that above all, what we wanted is to have maximum
7 transparency and neutrality in any activity we carried out. So I went to
8 the HQ of BH. I went to the HQ of his brigade, which was also in Mostar,
9 and I spoke with the chief, General Midhat Hudruk, and I saw that they
10 also were preparing themselves. And I asked them, "What's going on?"
11 Because I was a bit alarmed, because the attitude had changed.
12 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Meek.
13 MR. MEEK: I'm sorry to stand up like this, Your Honour,
14 Mr. President, but page 25, line 2 the witness just indicated that he
15 spoke to the chief, General, and it's not on the screen. Could we please
16 have that spelled.
17 JUDGE LIU: We also noticed that. But Mr. Meek, let us hear the
18 witness first, because you are not objecting to the question asked by the
19 Prosecutor; just to make one specific point clear.
20 Yes, Mr. Scott. Will you please make it clear for us.
21 MR. SCOTT: Yes, Your Honour. I was going to come back to that
22 very point myself.
23 Q. Can you tell us, if you can, sir, and maybe -- I'm not sure if
24 you -- well, can you tell us, if you can, the spelling of the name of the
25 person you just mentioned?
1 A. I am not an expert in names, and I'm not an expert in this
2 language. However, I do believe that in a report, the name could be
3 Midhat, M-i-j-a-d [as interpreted], Guodouk, G-u-o-d-o-u-k
4 [as interpreted].
5 The first letter is an "H."
6 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President --
7 A. Approximately, because I'm not an expert in languages and in
8 spelling. And I'm very sorry that I offended the lawyer because I did not
9 put forward this detail correctly. But it's very difficult for me to give
10 you more details on the way in which the name and the last name of this
11 person is spelled.
12 Q. Witness LL, I'm sorry, I thought -- frankly, I thought you spelled
13 it rather well, but I'm still not sure it came through on the transcript
14 particularly well. It sounded to me it was something like H-u-d-r-u-k.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Thank you.
17 Now, you said when you went to the ABiH headquarters, you saw that
18 they were also preparing, and you asked them about that. And if you
19 recall anything more, what did you learn from them at that time?
20 A. Yes. Now, General Midhat Hudruk and Humo told me that they knew
21 about what was going to happen, and they were expecting an attack from BHO
22 [as interpreted]. I was alarmed. I was very concerned about this
23 instantaneous change in the situation. Therefore, I went to my HQ in
24 Medjugorje; and there, I made a due note of the situation in order to
25 inform Colonel Morales directly, and this is what I did.
1 Q. Let me stop you there for a moment because, again, we probably
2 need to have some details more clear. Just now, in addition to Hudruk,
3 you mentioned a second name, which I believe it was something like Humo.
4 Was it H-u-m-o?
5 A. Yes, I think it's Humo. It's written just like that, the
6 transcript on the screen. I've never seen his name in written form. I
7 only have heard it being spoken, and I don't know whether this is the
8 right way to spell this name, but I think it's approximately right.
9 Q. Was he another Armija officer at the ABiH headquarters?
10 A. Yes, he was the second in command of the brigade that was under
11 Hudruk. He was a young man. And according to what he told me, he was an
12 architect, or at least he had studied architecture, and he was always
13 preparing himself with the whole of his HQ to receive an attack. And this
14 is what he told me.
15 Q. Two other points here just before we move forward. It may be
16 important to tell us, when you say the ABiH headquarters, of what
17 particular unit? Was this the overall headquarters, or are you talking
18 about a particular brigade or component?
19 A. Well, at that time, according to what I was told by the members of
20 this HQ, it was the 41st Brigade of this group.
21 Q. All right. And then finally, I apologise for slowing you down on
22 your testimony. But back now some lines, you said that they were
23 expecting --
24 MR. SCOTT: And I'm looking, Mr. President, back up at
25 approximately line 10 on page 26.
1 Q. You said they were expecting an attack from the BHO. I think
2 maybe some certain letters have been confused there. Who were they
3 expecting? Who were the ABiH officers expecting an attack from?
4 A. Yes. Armija was expecting an attack from HVO.
5 Q. All right.
6 A. Correct.
7 Q. Now, you told us, then, you went on to say that when you then
8 received this information from both sides, including Mr. Andabak, you went
9 to Colonel Morales at Medjugorje and advised him of these developments.
10 Is that right?
11 A. Yes, this is correct. And from that time on, he ordered, Colonel
12 Morales, that is, to have alert situation in all the Spanish units and to
13 set up a military convoy with armour and vehicles in order to patrol the
14 city of Mostar and reinforce our presence there.
15 Q. Did you and Colonel Morales go with this convoy or patrol,
16 including armored vehicles, into Mostar to patrol the city, either that
17 day or the next day?
18 A. Yes. That same day, we started before 12.00 midnight of the 7th,
19 and we ended the operation on the 8th, early morning, about 2.00 a.m.
20 Q. What did you do? Just briefly tell the Chamber, what did you do
21 in conducting this exercise in Mostar?
22 A. Well, what we did was to be there, to have a presence there,
23 different forces of Spanish forces under UNPROFOR in the city of Mostar in
24 order to try to intimidate; in other words, to secure protection of the
25 city proper and to try to discover information or ideas that could lead to
1 us thinking that there would be an attack.
2 Q. Let me ask you, then, when the major components of this convoy or
3 the series of patrols left Mostar. You said early that morning, did
4 you -- and I'm not going to mention any names here. I don't think --
5 MR. SCOTT: I don't think, Mr. President, it's critical to this
6 aspect of the testimony.
7 Q. But did you leave a small unit of men on an observation point on a
8 hill overlooking Mostar that night?
9 A. Yes. That day, in the afternoon, we left a group of us, a patrol
10 of us on a hill in order to see any action that could occur in the city of
12 Q. All right. I want to move forward, then, to the 9th of May. Can
13 you tell us what happened that morning. What came to your attention?
14 A. Well, what happened is that we had communication with this patrol
15 with a radio, and they told us that attacks were occurring in the city of
16 Mostar and they came from the HVO towards the Muslim area and that these
17 attacks were shelling, bombs falling in a Muslim area, and also there were
18 shooting with anti-aircraft guns against buildings, against the HQ of the
19 41st Brigade of the BH army. And also a concentration of people, of
20 staff, in the football stadium in Mostar that were protected by policemen
21 within the football stadium.
22 Q. All right. Well, let's -- on that last point, you said there was
23 a concentration of people, and you said "staff." I'm not sure -- what do
24 you mean by "staff"? "Staff" in the football stadium?
25 A. Yes. What I mean is that -- well, this is something we were able
1 to assess later. At the beginning, we saw a lot of people in this
2 football stadium, many people on the grass. And then lately -- later, we
3 realised there were older people, there were women, there were children,
4 and they were led towards this football stadium.
5 Q. Did you notice a number of buses near the stadium?
6 A. Yes. Outside the stadium, there were many, many buses, civilian
7 buses. Twenty, thirty civilian buses. And these people were transferred,
8 people who had been concentrated in the football stadium. There were
9 policemen or armed forces around them, and they were taken on a road
10 towards the area where we were. Therefore, it was easier for us to
11 identify the type of people that were being transferred.
12 Q. All right. Well, before we come back to that, you may have
13 gotten -- I may have gotten us a bit ahead of ourselves. When you got
14 this information, when you received this radio report from the observation
15 point left around Mostar, what did you do?
23 Q. Well, let me --
24 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, I'm going to ask that that last answer
25 be redacted. I was just about to caution the witness.
1 Q. Witness LL, on some of these names, I'm going to caution you not
2 to use them. I have not -- I have not cautioned you about some of the
3 senior officers because I would take it it was more or less publicly
4 known, the presence of some of the senior officers in the country at that
5 time. But as to some of these other individuals, unless there's
6 particular -- unless you think it's particularly necessary, it may be
7 better just not to use their names.
8 A. Yes. I understand.
9 Q. All right. So you took -- you assembled this group after
10 reporting to Colonel Morales, and you yourself went to this overlook
11 point; is that correct?
12 A. Yes, this is correct. I took contact myself with a group I had on
13 the hill.
14 Q. Now, you'd already begun to tell us some of the things you could
15 observe, and let me just come back to it in this way if I can: Were you
16 able to see yourself these -- what you were telling us about a few minutes
17 ago? This is not only what you were being told on the radio, but were you
18 able to see these things you've told us about a few minutes ago?
19 A. Yes. I was very impressed to see that the people that were
20 guarding these people were treating them as if these people were
21 prisoners. And also, I was impressed by direct shooting with machine-guns
22 towards the HQ of the 41st Brigade of the BH army, including the
23 concentration of direct fire. And this brought about fire inside the HQ,
24 inside the building proper. And sometimes they were shooting with tracing
25 bullets, which help the shooting itself. It's easier to shoot with these
2 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, I see the clock. If you would like us
3 to take the break.
4 JUDGE LIU: Very well. We'll resume at 11.30.
5 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.
6 --- On resuming at 11.32 a.m.
7 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Scott, before you continue, I will ask Madam
8 Registrar to take the solemn declaration from that interpreter.
9 THE INTERPRETER: [No interpretation]
10 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.
11 Mr. Scott.
12 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, I'm going to address the Chamber for a
13 moment. I was looking back at the transcript in, I hope, an extreme
14 abundance of caution. But in terms of the question that was raised about
15 the witness having a copy of his statement on the witness stand, for
16 counsel and the Chamber, I am looking at the transcript page 23, starting
17 about line 13. As part of my comments, I said, "So I don't want the
18 record to suggest or any comments by counsel to suggest that the witness
19 has been sitting there frequently leafing through a document. I don't
20 think the record would show that."
21 And Her Honour Judge Clark commented, "I think we've noticed
22 that." To be perfectly honest, I took Judge Clark's comment to be an
23 affirmation or agreement with what I was saying. But if I misinterpreted
24 it, I wanted to be clear.
25 JUDGE CLARK: I think I meant to indicate -- I thought that the
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 transcript didn't really reflect that, that I meant to indicate that we
2 have noted that this witness was not consulting his notes.
3 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Judge Clark. I appreciate that very much.
4 JUDGE LIU: Well, I believe all those transcripts will be checked
5 during the night, so there's no problem for you, Mr. Scott.
6 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. President.
7 Q. Witness LL, to continue on, at one point before the break, you
8 said that these buses that you could see leaving the football stadium in
9 Mostar were coming toward the direction or toward the location where you
10 were observing these events. And can you tell us, did some of these
11 buses, in fact, pass quite close to you and your group?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And can you just tell the Chamber a bit more about what you saw in
14 terms of could you see the people on the buses and what kind of people
15 were on these buses?
16 A. Yes. It passed right in front of me, because I had the
17 opportunity to stop the convoy which was moving and was being conducted by
18 the HVO and so that I could see that inside the buses. There were very
19 many people, civilians, women, small children, and elderly. The faces
20 were very expressive, so that I asked the military where were they taking
21 them. And they told me that I could not be there and that I should leave
22 immediately. And during this conversation, through a window, a civilian
23 threw at me a small piece of paper through the bus window, which was open,
24 asking me for help.
25 Q. When you say that you engaged in a conversation with someone
1 associated with this convoy, and then this same person then indicated that
2 your presence was not wanted there, who are you talking about? Could you
3 identify -- not by name, but what kind of person was this and with which
4 armed force was he?
5 A. Yes. The convoy was being escorted and led by a car, a car -- a
6 military car belonging to the HVO army. So I spoke to an HVO member. And
7 all the escorts, all the guards there were also from the HVO.
8 Q. Now, as these -- as the buses then went by, you said this piece of
9 paper was thrown out the window to you. Let me just ask you, did you feel
10 at that moment you were in a position to intervene?
11 A. My intervention, no, it could not be done because I had to have a
12 special authorisation for any intervention. My intervention was to try
13 and dissuade them. But I could do it only orally, I could intercede only
14 orally with the military who were taking the convoy to ask them,
15 therefore, to let those people go. But they were behaving increasingly
16 violently. And to avoid an armed conflict, that is, to avoid any fire
17 being opened, I had to withdraw from the area and to let them go on with
18 what they were doing.
19 However, we continued to tape the movement of the buses, which
20 were heading for the Heliodrom -- for the airport.
21 Q. And that was what I was going to ask you next. From this vantage
22 point -- or if you moved about, you can tell the Chamber that, please.
23 But from the places where you were conducting these observations, could
24 you see these buses go so far as a place called the Heliodrom?
25 A. Yes. Yes. We were on a dominant position, because the airport is
1 in a valley. So that from where we were, we could see very clearly the
2 final destination of all those people who were in those buses.
3 Q. Now, you've mentioned just now -- it may have come up in your
4 prior testimony. I'm not sure if you mentioned it so much, but you were
5 filming. Did this group -- the group that you were with, at that time you
6 had a video camera?
7 A. Yes. Colonel -- the chief of the Malaga Tactical Group had
8 authorised me to take a video camera along so as to film all that was
9 happening. So I went on filming this whole sequence so that I could have
10 one proof more which I would take to the head of the Canarias Tactical
12 Q. Now, on that point, Witness LL, just to probably answer the
13 question on everyone's mind in the courtroom, have you tried to find this
14 videotape in the records of the Spanish army, and is it correct that at
15 this point in time, that it has not been able to locate -- it's not been
16 possible to locate that?
17 A. Yes. I tried, as far as I could, to find out the lot of this
18 tape, and I haven't managed to find it to this day. However, I hope that
19 I will be able to find it eventually and to offer it to the Tribunal.
20 Q. I realise, sir, it's not your individual ability to make this
21 commitment, of course. It has to come from your government. But are you
22 willing to continue to make efforts to locate that tape and, if so,
23 provide it to this Chamber before the trial's -- if it's found before the
24 trial is concluded?
25 A. Yes. I think this is a historical fact, that is, the reality
1 which is reflected in this recording. This is a part of the -- of history
2 which I lived in Bosnia-Herzegovina and that it will be of interest for
3 this Tribunal.
4 Q. Now, let's continue with your observations on this -- the day of
5 the 9th of May. As you were moving about that day, but come to Citluk,
6 and did you happen to make any observations around that location?
7 A. Yes. When I left the area where the buses were and we were
8 filming, I quickly headed towards Medjugorje. And before I arrived there,
9 towards the area of Citluk, we heard the sound of guns firing. From the
10 road we could not see it properly, but we could hear that, however. And I
11 therefore took another road in order to see -- in order to try to
12 establish what was the origin of this fire, and could I see that there
13 were two field guns. I cannot give you the exact calibre of those guns,
14 but they could be of more than 100 millimetres, with long barrels, that
15 is, long range. And at that moment, an HVO officer turned up, was there,
16 who was ordering to fire one of these guns, and they were targeting
17 Mostar. They were pointing at Mostar.
18 Now, logically, I could not see from the position that I was at
19 where these projectiles fell.
20 Q. Let me ask you about that in this -- to this extent: I know you
21 perhaps didn't have a chance to inspect the guns in great detail, but from
22 what you could see, were these the type of weapons, based on your military
23 knowledge, which would have the range to reach Mostar from that location?
24 A. Absolutely. Their range could be between 15 and 20 kilometres.
25 Q. This HVO officer that you encountered, did he then come to
1 essentially ask you to leave?
2 A. Yes. He did not like our arrival and our presence. He was a
3 lieutenant. And I think perhaps to win our confidence, he invited us to
4 fire ourselves. I flatly refused to do that, and I told him that he had
5 to go, to leave, and that he was not allowed to open such fire against the
6 city of Mostar.
7 Q. What happened then?
8 A. But -- and I refused to leave until they stopped firing, saying
9 that I couldn't allow any such action. And then to intimidate us, he
10 turned the guns and turned them on to the vehicles with which we had
11 arrived there. As I could not imagine what those people intended to do, I
12 decided to peacefully leave the place without intimidating them and to go
13 and report immediately to my superior, the commander of the Canarias
14 Tactical Group.
15 Before that, while I was talking with this lieutenant, we made
16 some photographs which I could not find. I could not find these
17 photographs afterwards.
18 Q. Two questions about that. In fact, sir, do you recall that during
19 this -- around this occasion - excuse me - around this time that some film
20 was confiscated from you?
21 A. Correct. The lieutenant saw that we were making some photographs
22 from the car, and he got very angry and told me to hand him over the
23 camera and the film. And I told him that it was a personal camera. And
24 to calm him down, we took out an ordinary camera from the car with a film
25 that had not been used here, and I gave it to him so that he would keep
1 quiet. The camera with which we were making the photographs we kept so
2 that I could give the cartridge -- rather, the film, I could give this
3 roll to the chief of the Canarias Tactical Group.
4 Q. Before moving forward with your testimony, one further question:
5 It might be a small point, but when you say that these artillery pieces
6 were manoeuvred in such a way to aim at your vehicles, the question may
7 occur to some in the courtroom as if these are fairly large guns, how that
8 might be possible. Can you assist the Chamber, perhaps, in understanding
9 and in terms of the location of these guns in relation to where your
10 vehicles were located, how much had to be done to put these guns on a
11 track where they were aiming at you?
12 A. Since the -- they did not have to move much target us. There was
13 no need to remove the weapons from the -- from their emplacements. It was
14 simply with a slight manoeuvre that this truck could be lowered -- that
15 the gun could be lowered, and to direct it a little to the left or to the
16 right to aim at our position. That is what I think what they did. And
17 they did not have to really lift to move truly the guns. To move them
18 from the positions where there were, a slight manoeuvre was sufficient.
19 Q. All right. Now, apart from those two artillery pieces that you've
20 just told us about, as you moved about that day, did you see any other
21 larger weapons -- perhaps not of the calibre, but other types of weapons
22 other than -- I guess what I'm saying -- other than hand-held infantry
23 weapons that were firing on Mostar?
24 A. As for artillery pieces, these were the only ones that I saw. One
25 could hear other artillery pieces whilst we were on the hill observing
1 Mostar, but I do not know what was the origin of that. I know that they
2 were machine guns, 60, and that they were targeting the headquarters of
3 the 41st Brigade of the BH army.
4 Q. Did you see anti-aircraft guns being used in a direct-fire role?
5 A. Indeed. The anti-aircraft weapons were being used in the attack
6 on the headquarters of the 41st Brigade of the BH army. They were being
7 used against terrestrial targets.
8 Q. And perhaps it would assist -- I shouldn't assume too much. When
9 I asked you a moment ago "in a direct-fire role," what is direct fire --
10 from an artillery perspective, what is direct fire in contrast to other
11 types of fire?
12 A. In artillery, this is the -- there is direct support and indirect
13 support. The direct support is the fire used to support the attack of
14 one's unit. Indirect artillery support is used to support another
15 different unit, that is, to reinforce the artillery fire of the other
16 unit. In this case, when I speak about anti-aircraft weapons, I'm talking
17 about the direct fire from these firearms, that is, direct fire, direct,
18 not in a curve, but to achieve another sector. And its target could be --
19 that is, when I say that, I mean a target that could be seen directly from
20 the place -- from the place of the origin of fire.
21 Q. I'm not sure how much to stay on this, but perhaps it may be of
22 some significance. Can you explain to the Chamber the difference between
23 the type of fire that's artillery fire that is fired by something called a
24 howitzer as opposed to the artillery fire by something called a gun? Is
25 one used in a direct-fire mode and the other one primarily firing in a
1 more trajectory or arc?
2 A. Under normal circumstances, in an arc, which means an indirect
3 sector, it is usually done by mortars and, that is, it is used to fire at
4 targets behind a hill, behind an elevation and to go over an obstacle.
5 And an artillery shot allows this type of fire, and it is quite precise.
6 Q. The two anti-aircraft guns that you saw that day, just to finish
7 on this, were they firing in this direct-fire way, in terms of a direct
8 line of sight, to the ABiH headquarters in Mostar?
9 A. The artillery, that is, the gunfire, the fire from the gun they
10 were firing at Mostar, I do not know where the projectiles fell because I
11 could not see that. I could only see the guns firing of -- 50 millimetres
12 of the anti-aircraft weapons, and they were firing precisely at the
13 headquarters of the 41st Brigade of the BH army.
14 Q. Can you assist the Chamber, please, in the approximation of these
15 anti-aircraft guns in terms of, for instance, one of the roads coming into
16 Mostar or some other feature that may assist you in giving the Judges some
17 idea of the location.
18 A. They were on both sides of the road connecting Mostar with Siroki
20 Q. Later that day, approximately at 2.00 or 3.00 in the afternoon,
21 did you arrive back at Medjugorje to your base and report to Colonel
22 Morales or Major Acuna, as the case might be?
23 A. Yes, I informed both commanders, Colonel Morales and Major Acuna.
24 And it was decided to issue a public communication about these incidents.
25 And I do not know if this was the same tape or a copy of the tape that we
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 had -- we sent to a journalist in Split, a journalist whose name was
2 Angeles Rodicio. We wanted to show that an attack had begun from the west
3 part of Mostar against the east side, that HVO was attacking the BH army,
4 and make it abundantly clear -- and make abundantly clear the information
5 that Radio Mostar was saying and what our interpreters said was the
6 information about the beginning of an attack, that Radio Mostar was saying
7 that the BH army had launched an attack on the HVO.
8 This tape --
9 Q. Let me stop you there. Let me stop you there for a moment,
10 please. Based on what you personally saw on the 9th of May, can you tell
11 this Chamber whether these broadcasts by Radio Mostar saying that the ABiH
12 had started the attack were those broadcast -- were those statements
14 A. Yes, from what we could see. And from what we had -- were being
15 told from the beginning, our patrols, or rather, a patrol - because there
16 was only one patrol which we had on the hill - the attack was being
17 launched by the HVO against the east side of Mostar, that is, the Muslim
18 part of Mostar.
19 Q. Now, you started to say something, I think, and I interrupted
20 you - I apologise - about this tape being given to a Spanish journalist.
21 What happened after that?
22 A. Well, this journalist received the tape, and on the news the same
23 evening over Spanish television, images were shown and the commentary said
24 that an attack had taken place in Mostar, the HVO against the Muslims in
1 Q. After -- well, after that, after the broadcast of this videotape,
2 were the Spanish Battalion's movements restricted, further restricted?
3 A. Logically speaking, there was discomfort in the highest spheres of
4 HVO, because they knew that it was only us who would be able to have
5 recorded this tape, and for this reason, we were no longer allowed to
6 enter Mostar. And the unit that was inside, that before had been
7 displaced from the area because of the attack, remained isolated and could
8 no longer receive support from us up to a day later, if I remember
9 correctly. But from that time on, we were checked in all our movements,
10 and they tried to find out whether we had video cameras or cameras taking
11 films. Thank you.
12 Q. Witness, I'm about to go to a different topic, but perhaps having
13 a military man here, we should take advantage of that in one additional
14 respect. I asked you some questions a few minutes go about anti-aircraft
15 guns. In your military education and experience, have you ever heard of a
16 gun that may be commonly referred to as a Bofors and if that's considered
17 in some roles to be anti-aircraft weapon?
18 A. Yes. Bofors are double-barrel or three-barrel guns that are used
19 against aircraft.
20 Q. Can you tell us whether one of the guns that you saw on the road
21 going to Siroki Brijeg on the 9th of May was one of those Bofors?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. After the events of the 9th and 10th of May, did you continue to
24 stay in touch with Ivan Andabak?
25 A. Yes, I did. I kept in touch not only with Colonel Andabak but
1 with all the military sources, people I knew from the HVO and from the BH
2 army, and this with the objective of continuing to find out about the
3 plans of both parties.
4 Q. During these continuing conversations, did Mr. Andabak say
5 anything more to you about not only his personal objectives but what the
6 objectives of the HVO were during this time?
7 A. Yes. He told me that his objective was to try and get all the
8 Muslims out and that this was being very difficult to do because he had
9 not expected such resistance, and he thought it would have been easier to
10 do this.
11 Q. Now, after the dinner at Andabak's house that you told us about
12 this morning, did you ever see this man Tuta again?
13 A. Yes, I did. It's nothing that we had scheduled at all. It was a
14 casual encounter. In Siroki Brijeg, we met in the street, very quickly
15 had a conversation. I saw that he had a military uniform on. I don't
16 know whether his rank was on the sleeve; I didn't really notice. And we
17 had a brief conversation.
18 I realised he seemed to be quite satisfied that the war had begun
19 and that he expected the war to come to a successful end, namely, getting
20 the Muslims displaced from the city of Mostar. And all this were just
21 sentences in our conversation, but of course it was a conversation carried
22 out with movements of the hand, with -- in Italian; this is how I was able
23 to understand what Mr. Tuta was saying to me.
24 Q. Witness LL, you've previously expressed the view that it was
25 difficult sometimes to figure out exactly where this Tuta fit in the
1 organisation of things; is that correct?
2 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Meek.
3 MR. MEEK: Mr. President, Your Honours, I believe that question
4 assumes facts not in evidence. I've not heard this witness testify to
6 MR. SCOTT: I'll rephrase it, Mr. President. I'm sorry.
7 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Scott.
8 MR. SCOTT:
9 Q. Can you tell the Chamber, as you were conducting this
10 information-gathering role, can you tell the Chamber whether or not you --
11 whether it was easy or you had some difficulty in trying to assess exactly
12 where this Tuta fit in the picture?
13 A. Well, I'm a military man; therefore, it's rather easy for me to
14 get in contact with persons who belong to an army, to people who are in
15 contact with troops and people who are fighting alongside the troops.
16 This was the case of Ivan Andabak. And Mr. Andabak had told me this and
17 other military men from HVO and other military men from the army.
18 However, in the case of Mr. Tuta [Realtime transcript
19 omitted "Tuta"] he himself is the one that told me when we had dinner
20 together in the house of Colonel Andabak that under his orders, he had
21 several brigadiers and several colonels. However, I did know that he was
22 not a military man.
23 But we all know that in a civil war situation, a person that
24 brings money to the cause, that fights for this cause, who forgets about
25 his earlier life in order to dedicate himself completely to the cause, the
1 cause that he considers to be a just cause, it's only normal that he be
2 given a place in the military institution. And this is what I
3 understood. This is what I saw. This is what was expressed by Mr. Tuta.
4 However, even though I did realise that the chiefs of the brigades
5 that we had received information about were other people, but I believe
6 that he was dealing with planning, with controlling operations, leading
7 operations in a sporadic fashion, leading combat activities, and this was
8 confirmed to me by several military sources of the HVO.
9 Q. Let me clarify a couple of things, Witness LL. Again, for the
10 purposes of the transcript, you said, "However, in the case of Mr. ..."
11 and then there's a blank in the transcript, "... he himself is the one
12 that told me when we had dinner together ..." So who is the person that
13 you're referring to there, if you recall?
14 A. Yes. It was Mr. Tuta who told me when we were speaking at this
15 dinner party that he, under his command, under his orders, he had several
16 colonels and brigadiers of the HVO army.
17 Q. All right. Now, let me ask you about the conclusions that you
18 reached about this Mr. Tuta. Can you tell the Chamber how many times
19 during your tour of duty in 1993 did you see this Mr. Tuta?
20 A. Well, exactly how many times, I cannot say. But two organised
21 meetings, at least one when we had dinner with Colonel Ivan Andabak, and
22 another meeting in Mostar -- no, I'm sorry, in Medjugorje, with Colonel
23 Zorzo in the meeting. And then later on, in a sporadic fashion, one more
24 meeting that I already mentioned, and perhaps another meeting more. But I
25 don't remember exactly about this last meeting; this is why I do not want
1 to refer to it here and now.
2 Q. Let me take one of those, please. The meeting you said just now,
3 there was a meeting in Medjugorje with Colonel Sporzo [phoen] -- Zorzo.
4 Sorry, my apology. What did you understand, if you did, of Tuta's role in
5 that meeting?
6 A. I did not exactly understand that he was a chief of a specific
7 unit. He was an organiser within the military.
8 Q. Well, can you tell us, were all the other persons in this meeting,
9 were they all military persons? Were they all military officers?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And going back to Mr. Andabak, do you recall how Mr. Andabak
12 referred to Tuta? Did he describe him in any military terms or refer to
13 him in any way as a superior?
14 A. [No interpretation]
15 Q. Will you tell us what he said?
16 A. Well, according to a document that was done after the dinner
17 party, a report I put forward, Mr. Tuta was a sort of chief and instructor
18 of Ivan Andabak and the forces under him. He was over him. This is what
19 I understood from Mr. Tuta.
20 Q. Now, before turning to some documents, the last topic I want to
21 ask you about is the Croatian army; that is, the HV, as opposed to the
22 HVO. Can you tell the Chamber, please, during your tour of duty in Bosnia
23 in 1993, did you ever see any HV forces or soldiers in the Spanish
24 Battalion's area of responsibility?
25 A. Yes, in one opportunity, I could see that the roads leading to
1 Mostar from the -- Ploce through Capljina, Ljubuski, I could see trucks
2 with the name "HV" on them, and soldiers holding this marking with
3 initials of HVO.
4 Q. I'm sorry, did you mean to say HV --
5 THE INTERPRETER: HV. The interpreter made a mistake.
6 A. HV.
7 MR. SCOTT:
8 Q. Is it correct, sir, that you left this particular peacekeeping
9 mission on about the 15th or 16th of July, 1993?
10 A. Yes. The 16th of July, I got to Spain.
11 Q. All right. Now, Witness, for the last part of your direct
12 examination, I'd like to take you to a few documents. And I think there's
13 a binder there that I hope all of them will be in.
14 MR. SCOTT: And for the rest of the courtroom, Mr. President, I'm
15 going to begin with Volume 1 of the SpaBat documents that I hope everyone
16 will have available, as we previously had mentioned.
17 Q. And if you can find first of all, Witness, Exhibit P301. And you
18 can, of course, direct your attention to the Spanish version. And can you
19 confirm just by looking at this document, for example, that this is a
20 record that was made by the Spanish army during your tour of duty in
21 Bosnia in 1993?
22 A. Yes. It was made by the Spanish army on the 16th of April, 1993.
23 It's a document that is an INTREP; it's a summary of information.
24 Q. Directing your attention to -- it's not a long -- in the Spanish
25 in particular, it's not a long document. But there's a paragraph that
1 talks about certain actions in Doljani, Sovici. I believe it's
2 approximately the third paragraph of the document, probably in either
3 English or Spanish, the third paragraph, starting with "The main reason
4 for the visit was to make very serious representations for help and in
5 order to evacuate some 600 Muslims civilians."
6 Now, can you tell me whether your unit was involved in collecting
7 that information and played a role in, in fact, preparing this report?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Would you go, please -- we'll take one exhibit out of order.
10 We'll skip over it and come back to it. Would you please go to 320 -- I'm
11 sorry, I'm wrong about that. 325, please. Just go to 325. Looking at
12 that document, sir, can you please assist the Chamber by confirming -
13 again, if you can - this was a report made by the Spanish army in
14 approximately April 1993?
15 A. Yes. This was made by the Spanish army, our patrols.
16 Q. Now, directing your attention to the document itself, you may be
17 able to assist us with a couple of details. In these reports, there is a
18 date and time of completion. And I'm looking at page 3 of the English --
19 top of page 3 of the English version. And it's a detail, but it may come
20 up in some context and it may assist the Chamber.
21 To the right of the entry date and time of completion, there is a
22 series of numbers, "220105B APR93." Can you tell the Chamber, please,
23 whether that indicates the date of the 22nd of April, 1993.
24 A. Yes. This document is a summary of the information concerning the
25 22nd day of April.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Q. And what is the additional information? Between the "22" and the
2 abbreviation for April, there is the "0105 B."
3 A. 1-0 [as interpreted] is the hour, 22nd of April at 10
4 [as interpreted] hours, and 5 minutes. "B", Bravo, is the hour, according
5 to the summertime hour. It could be Alpha, it could be Bravo according to
6 whether it's wintertime or summertime. And it has to do with the solar
7 hours, Zulu.
8 Q. Does this indicate that this report was actually prepared at
9 1.05 a.m. summertime?
10 A. Yes. It is the time in which the document was closed. We refer
11 to the hour in which the document is closed.
12 Q. You were working very late, sir.
13 A. Yes. I think that in these circumstances, we didn't really count
14 hours in order to work and in order to establish contacts and give help to
16 Q. Let me direct your attention, please, to page 5 in the English
17 version, but it's under the section called -- titled "Jablanica." And
18 directing your attention under that, and there's a number of entries, some
19 of them rather short, but I think it would be about the sixth entry, if
20 you will, or paragraph under "Jablanica" starting with the words
21 "According to intelligence received ..." Do you see that?
22 A. Yes, it was me, personally, who drafted this information.
23 Q. These are your words, sir? Is that what you're telling us?
24 A. Yes. This expression and these data could only be known by
25 myself; nobody else.
1 Q. So when you say here -- I'm going to just make reference to this
2 statement and ask you some questions about it. You reported, then, on the
3 22nd of April, 1993: "The offensive is directed by a person of
4 substantial political" --
5 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Meek. I'm sorry.
6 MR. MEEK: Mr. President, Your Honours, we again come to a
7 situation where I believe the documents speak for themselves. And we are
8 now in a situation where Mr. Scott wants to read these documents into the
9 record, or he is going to ask this witness to read these documents line by
10 line, word by word. I believe this is improper. I object. If he wants
11 to ask a direct question and have a direct answer, it's a different
12 situation. That's my objection.
13 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Meek, that's a speculation of the question. We
14 have not heard the question yet. That's the first.
15 Secondly, this witness is the drafter of this document. We are
16 very interested to hear the comments from this witness about this document
17 so that we could know at least the authenticity of this document.
18 Mr. Scott, are you going to read a substantial paragraph from this
20 MR. SCOTT: I wasn't going to read a long passage, Your Honour, a
21 few sentences, but I'll accommodate my learned friend.
22 Q. If I can simply ask, Witness LL, if you will look at that
23 paragraph and take a moment to read that to yourself, I'll ask you a
24 question or two.
25 A. Yes, I'm looking at it now.
1 Q. On what information did you have at this time that this person who
2 is tired of signatures and political treaties, that this person is Tuta?
3 A. Yes, it's Mr. Tuta.
4 Q. Can you assist the Chamber in telling it a bit more about the
5 reasons you came to this conclusion and you included these statements in
6 your report?
7 A. Normally before I write something such as this, one has to be
8 quite sure what one is writing. This was an information, direct
9 information from a source, military source of the BH [as interpreted]
10 who -- or who is very close to Tuta and who gave me all the details on how
11 this operation was going to be carried out.
12 Q. Now, you just said - and I want to be clear whether it's again a
13 translation or transcription error - this "source," and at this moment I'm
14 not pressing you to identify the source specifically, but was this source
15 affiliated with one side or the other or one of the military formations or
16 the other?
17 A. Yes. The source is associated to the HVO.
18 Q. And -- I'll leave it at that. Well, let me ask it this way: This
19 information, do you recall whether that -- whether this date, the 22nd of
20 April, was after your dinner conversation with Tuta and Andabak at
21 Mr. Andabak's house?
22 A. Yes. It was after that meeting, after that dinner party that I
23 obtained this piece of information, later.
24 Q. And so can you tell the Chamber, please, the information that's
25 reported in this Exhibit 325 that we've been looking at for the last few
1 moments, did you find that to be consistent with what Mr. Andabak and
2 Mr. Tuta told you at this dinner?
3 A. Yes, it does coincide. The actions coincide with the intentions
4 as expressed during the dinner party.
5 Q. If I could then ask you, please, to go to Exhibit 327. Can you
6 tell us what Exhibit 327 is?
7 A. This is a file which was compiled on Mr. Tuta, that is, based on
8 his -- about his biography and his personality.
9 Q. Who prepared this document?
10 A. This document was prepared by the second section of the Main Staff
11 on the basis of reports which I had procured myself.
12 Q. Well, let me ask you this: Other than not preparing or not
13 writing the words on the page, if I can ask this question this way: Who
14 was the principal source - I don't mean the ultimate source but the
15 information given to the Spanish army for the purpose of preparing this
16 document - who was the principal provider of information, of this
18 A. This document is the fruit of information that was openly given us
19 during the dinner in Ivan Andabak's house, where there was Tuta and
20 Colonel Zorzo.
21 Q. Now, if I can direct your attention, please, to the part of the
22 document down -- that's in sort of a box. There's three columns. And in
23 the far left column, there is the date of "7 April 1993." Can you assist
24 the Chamber, please, in indicating is that the approximate date of the
25 dinner with Tuta and Andabak?
1 A. Yes. It must have taken place one or two days later before that;
2 that is, this is the time that I needed to compile the report and send it
3 to the second section of the General Staff -- of Main Staff.
4 Q. So as an example, up above that when it says: "Current Situation,
5 chief instructor, he receives direct orders from Petkovic," and then later
6 on you give information about his family, can you confirm to the Chamber,
7 please, that this information or most of this information was stated to
8 you by Tuta himself?
9 A. Yes. I repeat that that dinner was very relaxed. It was, one
10 could say, a familiar -- atmosphere as amongst members of family. So we
11 could talk about everything. And I saw the identity card, at least the
12 identity card which at that time he had, and some lettering, and I
13 remember that all the information was direct and it merely emerged from
14 the conversation between this gentleman, that is, Mr. Tuta, Ivan Andabak,
15 and representatives of Spain, Colonel Zorzo and myself.
16 Q. Let's move on to Exhibit 357.
17 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, in -- this particular document will not
18 be -- I think it should be in the witness's binder for the witness stand
19 purposes, but in the -- for everyone else in the courtroom, it was in this
20 separate collection that was distributed previously, I believe - I hope -
21 and it's Exhibit P357. And this document is under seal, so I'm not going
22 to -- we haven't put any of them on the -- on the ELMO, but I want to
23 identify it specifically, but it is Exhibit P357.
24 A. Yes. This is an INTREP dated 29 April, which was done at and
25 closed at 2150.
1 MR. SCOTT:
2 Q. Can I direct your attention, please, to again the information
3 under the heading "Jablanica"? And directing your attention to the entry
4 that says: "Fifty per cent of the city of Doljani ...."
5 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, I'll defer to the Chamber's own review
6 of the Spanish, original Spanish document. I respectfully submit that in
7 the Spanish version, the letter "D" is rather obvious, but for some reason
8 it was transcribed "B," but of course the Chamber will decide.
9 Q. But you said: "Fifty per cent of the city of ..." to avoid
10 controversy, I'll simply say here, "... Boljani is destroyed. The town
11 of Sovigi seemed to be covered with smoke from a certain vantage point."
12 Now, do you know again if this was information drawn on
13 observations by your unit?
14 A. Yes. This was direct observation of my patrols about -- from this
15 vantage point, and they made an information on these two places from this
16 vantage point, which would cover both Doljani and Sovici.
17 Q. And looking to the next item, "Comment."
18 MR. SCOTT: Which again I believe, Your Honours, it says "HVI." I
19 submit to you the Spanish is rather -- obviously it says "HVO."
20 Q. Can you confirm to the Chamber that in fact these components of
21 the Spanish army were stopped by the HVO to prevent them from seeing what
22 was happening in Doljani and Sovici?
23 A. Yes. As I have already said earlier we could not move freely,
24 not -- so that it was quite natural that we were not allowed to -- we were
25 not given access to certain places, and our convoys at times were not
1 allowed to go through.
2 Q. Can we go next briefly to Exhibit 361, which should be back in the
3 main binder. 361. It's a rather longer document, but when you have that,
4 would you please, first of all, find the section that's -- section 1.3,
5 "Neretva Valley." And if you can just cast your eyes down that page and
6 the next, which again, among other things, mentions Sovici and Doljani.
7 Can you confirm to the Chamber -- well, can you say one way or the
8 other was this information again based upon information coming from the
9 Deep Reconnaissance Patrol?
10 A. Before here we have a summary of information, that is, this is an
11 INTSUM which recapitulates the reports between the 16th and the 30th of
12 April. This is the summary of information, and it is based on the daily
13 summaries of information collected in the area of operations, so that this
14 document is based on the summaries of information collected daily in the
15 area of operations, in the zone of operations.
16 Q. Now, if I can direct your attention, please, to -- it will be on
17 page 7 in the Spanish version, the second paragraph on page 7, and in the
18 English version, the second full paragraph starting on page 8. It simply
19 is a point of reference only. "There are reports that the HVO forces in
20 this area are led by Tuta."
21 Can you tell the Chamber again the information -- what this
22 information is based upon?
23 A. This information is based on another information which I
24 personally obtained from HVO sources, from military sources very close to
25 Mr. Tuta.
1 Q. All right. I think I won't -- for the interest of time, I won't
2 stay on that any longer. Can we go to Exhibit 375, please?
3 If you have that, sir, and again, you can just confirm that this
4 is a Spanish army report? In fact, if we look at the content of the
5 report, under "Mostar," does that reflect some of the information that
6 you've told us about this morning in terms of what was observed happening
7 in Mostar at that time?
8 A. Yes. This document, unlike those others, was drawn up by the
9 third section of the Main Staff, and that was the operative section, and
10 this is a report on the situation, and that is why it is called a SITREP.
11 And it is based on the summary of information provided by my patrols --
12 Q. Well, just to --
13 A. -- deployed in the area.
14 Q. Just to take one example, because we're not going to spend much
15 time on these documents now, but under "Mostar," the -- the four -- it
16 would be the third -- there's some unbulleted paragraphs or items. But
17 the third bullet saying: "A concentration of civilians has been seen in
18 the football ground and transfer of the same civilians by bus out of the
19 city," is that what you yourself, sir, observed on the 9th of May, 1993?
20 A. Yes. This is based on my personal observation.
21 MR. SCOTT: Excuse me, Mr. President, I'm seeing if we can just
22 perhaps skip a couple of these documents in order to conclude the witness
23 before the lunch break.
24 Q. If we can go -- let's go to 401. And looking at that document, is
25 that another report prepared or at least contributed to by your unit?
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And, for instance, under the heading 1.2, "Areas in Mostar," did
3 it indicate that, for instance, on the 17th of May, 1993 between 800 and
4 1.000 shells exploded in the -- most of them in the Muslim quarter on that
6 A. Yes. We had some observation posts from which we controlled the
7 falling of the projectiles.
8 Q. Directing --
9 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, there's a number of points we could
10 stop on, but I'll leave it to the Chamber, of course, to be able to review
11 the document for itself. I'm going to be very selective.
12 Q. Witness, if I can ask you to go to the next -- I'm not sure if
13 it's the next page in Spanish. But continuing on down the items under
14 "Mostar," you will get to two starred -- if I can use -- starred items
15 right above the section, then, beginning "Jablanica." And there's a
16 reference there -- the first starred item, as opposed to a dash or other
17 marking, says: "The Muslim civilian population continues ..." I won't
18 read it further. But can you just describe to the Chamber the kind of
19 information that was coming to the Spanish battalion at this time and in
20 fact whether this report reflects that?
21 A. This report could have been supplied both by my patrol, which was
22 in Mostar, and by the section over the APC's, which were also patrolling
23 in Mostar and with the direct contact with both sides since we had the
24 possibilities. In spite of all the limitations and the shelling and all
25 the rest, we could nevertheless, we could at times get to either the east
1 or the west side.
2 MR. SCOTT: I'm skipping over a number of documents, but there's
3 one that's not in the binder. And if I could have the usher's assistance
4 please. The document which has been marked as 429.1, if those could be
5 distributed, please.
6 Mr. Usher, if I could have one extra one back. I have one but for
7 Mr. Stringer.
8 Thanks very much.
9 Q. Witness LL, this is an ECMM report, but your name, I believe, is
10 mentioned in it.
11 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Meek.
12 MR. MEEK: Mr. President, Your Honour, a couple of things: One,
13 has this document been translated into the native tongue of my client to
14 date? And secondly, it appears that this exhibit, P429.1, involves an
15 area, location that is clearly outside of this indictment.
16 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, on the translation issue, no, it has
17 not. It has not yet been translated. It will be submitted for
18 translation. And as to the location, there has been extensive testimony,
19 indeed, on Stolac, and it is directly related to the course of conduct in
20 this case.
21 JUDGE LIU: So you may proceed, Mr. Scott.
22 MR. SCOTT:
23 Q. Now, this document will have to be under seal because the witness
24 name is mentioned, so I don't want to look at that or give that
25 information, Witness LL. But you apparently had reported this information
1 to the ECMM. And can you tell us, briefly, what happened on about the 9th
2 of May at this medical centre in Stolac?
3 A. Well, what I will -- what is said here was not said by me
4 directly. It was a source which informed me about what had happened, and
5 who also said -- and who went with me to the hospital in Stolac. I went
6 with him there. He showed me photographs of patients who were in this
7 hospital earlier, and he told me that they had been displaced, evicted by
8 the HVO forces and that these people had been transferred in an unknown
10 Now, this person who gave me all this detail was also afraid for
11 the lives of these people, that is, sick people, disabled people, elderly
12 people. And I merely made a report to my superior so that all these
13 details could be investigated, gone into in greater depth.
14 Q. And do you know whether, in fact, after this time, that this
15 incident was investigated and confirmed?
16 A. I do not. I reported to my superiors, and personally, I was not
17 put in charge of this investigation. I tried to supply all the
18 information, that is, the names of people and doctors and everybody else
19 who worked there in this hospital, so as to -- and hoping that that would
20 be of help to my superiors.
21 Q. Let me ask you this before moving on, then, to a last document or
22 two: Did you, the Spanish army, did you cooperate, in fact, with a number
23 of international organisations who were also on the ground at that time,
24 such as the European Community Monitoring Mission?
25 A. Yes, we cooperated with other humanitarian organisations.
1 Q. Very well.
2 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, I do want to conclude the witness
3 before the lunch break. And of course, the Chamber will have all the
4 exhibits, of course, the ones that are admitted, to review, so I think I
5 will not put further documents in front of the witness.
6 Witness LL, I thank you very much for your testimony.
7 THE WITNESS: I should also like to thank everybody here.
8 JUDGE LIU: Any cross-examination, or you prefer to do it some
9 time later?
10 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] It will be Mr. Meek who will be
11 cross-examining the witness, but it is only five minutes before the break,
12 so I do not know whether it's really worth starting it now. Perhaps we
13 should do it after the break, but it is, of course, up to you.
14 JUDGE LIU: We'll resume at 2.30 this afternoon.
15 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.55 p.m.
1 --- On resuming at 2.30 p.m.
2 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Meek.
3 Cross-examined by Mr. Meek:
4 Q. Good afternoon, Witness LL. How are you?
5 A. Good afternoon to you. I'm very well, thank you.
6 Q. My name is Mr. Chris Meek, and I'm one of the attorneys
7 representing Mr. Naletilic.
8 A. Nice to meet you. My name is LL.
9 Q. LL, it is very nice to meet you too. I met a comrade of yours,
10 JJ, the other day, and he was a very nice gentleman also.
11 MR. MEEK: May we go to private session briefly?
12 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We'll go to the private session.
13 [Private session]
4 [Open session]
5 MR. MEEK: May I have the usher help me here with an exhibit to
6 place on the ELMO. For the record, it would be Exhibit P2.
7 Could you zoom it out.
8 Q. Witness LL, the Prosecutor, right before the lunch break, handed
9 us an Exhibit marked P429.1, a one-page document which involved an
10 incident in Stolac. Do you recall that document and that testimony, sir?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Would you please review the Exhibit P2 which is on the ELMO and
13 point for the Trial Chamber where the town of Stolac is located on that
15 A. Here, exactly here, because we can read the name "Stolac" on the
17 Q. You might take that closer. Take it off the ELMO and read that
18 and tell me again if that is Stolac.
19 A. Exactly to the west of Mostar, south-west of Mostar.
20 Q. Do you see the city on that map, Witness?
21 A. Could you repeat your question, please?
22 Q. Yes. I'm just asking you, do you see the city of Stolac,
23 S-t-o-l-a-c, on this map Exhibit P2?
24 A. No. No.
25 Q. Would you agree with me -- and take your time, Witness, and look
1 at the whole map.
2 A. Now, do you want me to tell you where Stolac is? This is how I
3 understood your question.
4 Q. You understood my question correctly, sir.
5 A. I think that the Stolac city could be found near Blagaj, around
7 Q. I take it that you are not certain where the city of Stolac is
8 located. Would that be a fair statement?
9 A. Well, yes, it is right. I have to see exactly a map with -- road
10 map in order to identify the exact location of Stolac.
11 Q. Witness LL, while I am looking for a larger map for you, would you
12 take a marker and outline the area in which you had command authority
13 during your stay in Bosnia-Herzegovina in 1993, please.
14 A. Can I draw on this map that I have been given? Could I draw on
15 this map?
16 Q. Yes, sir, you may.
17 A. I think I have marked and underlined the area that
18 approximately -- the approximate area where I was able to travel during my
19 stay in Bosnia-Herzegovina from January to June 1993.
20 Q. Thank you.
21 MR. MEEK: And can the technical people zoom that out a little bit
22 so we can see the whole map. Thank you.
23 Q. On the bottom right of the map, you have a line, and then you have
24 marked through it. Was that a mistake, Witness?
25 A. Yes. Because if not, we will be going into the Serbian area.
1 However, with Colonel -- one of the colonels of the HVO in Capljina, I was
2 able to visit the part of Stolac and there, he explained that it was an
3 important area where there was combat between the -- in the Apura Battle
4 between the two contending forces. And please, take into account that if
5 I draw on this map, I make a line on this map, it could be several
6 kilometres. And this would be quite different if we had a scale of, for
7 instance, 1 per 5.000.
8 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Scott.
9 MR. SCOTT: I'm asking for clarification and assistance. The
10 number of the exhibit that this is based on, please, the one that's on the
11 ELMO now.
12 JUDGE LIU: We also have some doubts about the number of this map,
13 because it seems different from the --
14 MR. SCOTT: The P2 I have, Your Honour, is quite different, in a
15 very material way, in which this witness was just cross-examined.
16 MR. MEEK: Wait a minute. Momento. I apologise for any
17 confusion. I have Exhibit 2 on the bottom of this map that the witness is
18 looking at that was given to us by the -- my apologies. Mrs. Registrar
19 shows me P2. This is a map that was originally Exhibit 2.
20 JUDGE LIU: Madam Registrar, would you please take this map and
21 show it to the Prosecutor to make sure it's the same map we are looking
23 No, no, no, not this one; that one.
24 MR. SCOTT: Can I inquire, is this the map that was just put to
25 the witness about finding Stolac? Was there an earlier map, or is this
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 the only map -- I'm sorry, Your Honour, I don't mean to converse with
2 counsel, but I do want to seek some clarification in terms of if this is
3 the only map that has been put in front of the witness so far.
4 JUDGE LIU: We also need the explanations from Defence counsel.
5 MR. MEEK: Your Honour, may I explain. Mr. Scott is right. This
6 is the only map that has been placed in front of this witness since lunch,
7 and perhaps all day. I humbly apologise for stating that it was P2. It
8 was my mistake. I saw the Exhibit Number 2, and this is how we received
9 the exhibit from the Prosecutor. Perhaps this map has never been
10 introduced into evidence to date.
11 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Scott.
12 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, I think what's happened here, I think
13 maybe as an earlier exercise, perhaps even during the depositions or
14 something, there may have been -- at some point there may have been a
15 version like this, although I don't remember offhand. But I'll allow for
16 that possibility. However - and I'm being very objective here - I'm not
17 prepared to cast any stones in any direction at the moment.
18 But P2 is a different map, and it has the municipality of Stolac
19 on it. Now, to put the other map in front without Stolac and put the
20 witness through some paces to say, "Please find Stolac for me," when
21 Stolac was not on that map is a little unfair to the witness, I submit.
22 JUDGE LIU: We also believe that we could agree with the
23 Prosecutor. You cannot set a trap and ask the witness to fall into this
25 MR. MEEK: Your Honours, I again humbly apologise. I was not
1 attempting to do that in any fashion. And if Madam Registrar would show
2 the witness what actually is P2, then I can ask my question. But again,
3 for the record, it's just a mistake. I believed this to be Exhibit 2.
4 I'm sorry.
5 JUDGE LIU: You have to promise me that this kind of mistake
6 should be never repeated again in this courtroom.
7 MR. MEEK: Your Honour, I will promise you that I will never
8 attempt to make such a mistake; I didn't mean to in the first place. Your
9 Honour, I would add that part of my confusion is that I am not from
10 Bosnia-Herzegovina, and I also have some problems with the logistics or
12 JUDGE LIU: That's not a good excuse, Mr. Meek.
13 MR. MEEK: Your Honour, I agree with you. No excuse is a good
14 excuse. It will not happen again.
15 Q. Witness LL, now you're looking at what has been marked as P2, and
16 you can see Stolac, can you not?
17 A. Yes. And I apologise as well, because I'm a military man and I
18 should have known exactly, without any doubt whatsoever, where Stolac was,
19 because I went there several times. But a military map is quite different
20 from this drawing which was shown to me at first, and I had no references,
21 and ten years later it's rather difficult to remember exactly where the
22 different cities were located. Thank you very much. Here it is.
23 Q. And Witness LL, on the previous map that you drew the marks on
24 showing your area of responsibility, did --
25 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Meek, we could not accept the previous map.
1 You have to ask this witness to draw it again on the P2.
2 MR. MEEK: Okay. Might I ask the Trial Chamber, is this a clean
3 map right now? I don't want the witness to mark on it if it's going to be
5 THE REGISTRAR: This is a clean copy.
6 MR. MEEK: Is it appropriate to mark on it?
7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes.
8 MR. MEEK: Okay.
9 Q. Witness LL, with all my sincere apologies, could you do what you
10 did earlier and take the green marker and outline your area of
11 responsibility when you were in Bosnia-Herzegovina in 1993.
12 A. Yes. Now, my area of responsibility was the area of
13 responsibility of the Malaga Tactical Group of the Spanish forces, and I'm
14 going to mark this area approximately just now.
15 This is the east area of all this drawing here we could not
16 occupy, because at that time there was a Serbian front. This Lasar
17 [phoen] is a city that had been -- where there was a lot of struggling
18 before we arrived. The Serbian front was rather more to the east. And in
19 the northern area, it almost reached Sarajevo, but we could not take the
20 general road because the Serbian part with Mladic was occupying all this
21 area of Tarcin.
22 And this is -- here we went to Kresevo, and then we went to
23 Sarajevo here through the north. This is a mountainous ridge up to here,
24 Kiseljak approximately. I was able to move about, and then I went down
25 through Jablanica towards the west, Siroki Brijeg. I don't remember
1 exactly if I could go towards the west, which was the area under the
2 responsibility of the Spanish group, Ljubuski, Capljina. And even at the
3 beginning, because our unit was in Ljubuski, we used the road from
4 Ljubuski Polje and Stolac -- I'm sorry, Capljina, Dracevo in order to
5 escort convoys of UNPROFOR up to Sarajevo. And this, it can be
6 summarised, is the Neretva Valley. Thank you very much.
7 Q. Thank you very much, Witness. Now, my next question would be,
8 then: Was the city of Stolac within your zone of responsibility or the
9 Malaga group's zone of responsibility?
10 A. Well, I don't remember exactly whether it was at the very limit,
11 whether we could go to visit it, but I was able to go there with Colonel
12 Radovic. And I believe that from Stolac, it's where contacts began with
13 the Serbian part to start working for peace with the Serbs, to get rid of
14 the mines and to put down the mines. And we did -- with the Serbian
15 counterpart, we brought either dead bodies or prisoners for exchange, this
16 by request from the HVO or the HV army. And Stolac was a sort of corridor
17 that allowed for conversations to take place with the Serbian groups.
18 Q. Thank you very much, Witness. Since you were there in
19 Bosnia-Herzegovina for a number of months in 1993, could you take a red
20 marker and mark on the same map, P2, the area on that map that was
21 occupied by the Muslim forces.
22 A. The most important thing that I think I remember is that it was
23 concentrated on the eastern side of Mostar, the Ivar River [phoen], even
24 though the HQ of Armija was on the western side. But I know that on the
25 south of Mostar, there was an area that was the responsibility of the
1 Muslims, the Armija forces, in order to defend the Serbian front because
2 there was an agreement between these two groups in order to share this
3 sector of monitoring this area, which was a sort of Serbian front.
4 Now, the Muslim area before Jablanica, approximately here, there
5 was a majority of Muslims. And also there were some Muslim checkpoints as
6 well. Tacin is also in the Muslim area. And here, there is a ridge, and
7 on the other side, there's a city, Kresevo, where there were a lot of
8 Bosnians and Croatians; and Kiseljak, where the majority, if I remember
9 correctly, Bosnians and Croatians.
10 And the first period before the conflict broke out, I think I
11 remember there was a good sharing of areas under the responsibility in
12 order to defend the Serbian front, and this was the main concern. And
13 this I realised in the first few months where I was in Bosnia-Herzegovina.
14 Q. Witness, you mentioned Jablanica, and you indicated that perhaps
15 that was a Muslim-controlled area. Did I understand that correctly or
17 A. In Jablanica, the majority population was Muslim. There were also
18 armed forces, military, and paramilitary Muslim forces there. And the
19 same goes for Konjic.
20 Q. Witness LL, thank you -- can you take the red marker and mark the
21 areas that was Muslim controlled. That's what I'd like you to do, if you
23 A. You are requesting for me major accuracy, and I really wouldn't
24 dare do that in this area. I mentioned the chief nuclei , and around
25 these nuclei were deployed military forces. But to draw it on this map, I
1 would have to go through the documents in order to really establish where
2 were the army force - that is, the BH army forces - deployed there with
3 any accuracy. It is very difficult for me to do it quite accurately. I
4 would have to look first at the military map to go from one point to the
5 other, and very carefully, and then see if I could, perhaps, remember it
6 correctly and accurately.
7 Q. Thank you for your answer. And I understand that it has been nine
8 years, and that your memory is not completely correct about everything.
9 And I wouldn't ask you to give me exact locations. But if you can give me
10 to the best of your memory today is all I'm asking. And if you have no
11 memory as of today, just tell me, and I'll go on.
12 JUDGE DIARRA: [Interpretation] Mr. President, there is something
13 which disturbs me with this analysis. He just said that he would feel
14 more comfortable with a military map where all the routes are traced
15 rather than with this schematic map, the Defence. It is not because his
16 memory is faulty that he does not remember. I'd like you in your comments
17 not to change the truth, what the witness has said.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What I am trying to say, that it is
19 very difficult -- that it was very difficult to ascertain with any
20 certainty whatsoever where the units were deployed. I had contacts with
21 the different chiefs, with different commanders, but it was very difficult
22 to deduce from what we heard about them where the troops were and what the
23 forces were doing. There were HVO forces, there were BH army forces, and
24 they were telling us about their problems, and different problems about
25 the logistics, about their needs, humanitarian assistance, and so on and
1 so forth. But to ascertain what was the deployment, it means that I would
2 have to go from one point to another, and that was very difficult to say.
3 So that the ORBATs that we had usually had very many question
4 marks as to the exact locality. It was really intelligence work, which we
5 could never do properly at the time when I was there. It was very
6 difficult to come by any information, and I would never dare go into these
7 details and ask about these details for -- and another thing is because I
8 might fear to disclose the source of information that I had. It could
9 also affect our security. And because I didn't want to do that, I
10 concentrated on the area of Mostar.
11 In Jablanica, there was another officer of mine, but it is really
12 very difficult because this kind of information is very difficult to point
13 at. And especially at the time, when all these operations were taking
14 place, we were trying to follow and go to places and to concentrate on the
15 places where we realised that people might be displaced from or where the
16 population was suffering, where the population was victimised. But it was
17 practically impossible to get to all the places where the actions were
18 taking place.
19 JUDGE LIU: Well, Witness, we quite understand your difficulties,
20 especially during the time of the war. The lines are not very clear, and
21 it's after nine years, after all.
22 So we'll kindly ask the Defence counsel to withdraw this question
23 on this very issue.
24 MR. MEEK: I was just about --
25 JUDGE LIU: And that way, Witness, you have to keep a little bit
1 of distance from the mike so that we could hear you very clearly, because
2 all the other people rely on the interpreters. Thank you.
3 Mr. Meek.
4 MR. MEEK:
5 Q. Thank you, Witness LL. I understand. I will not ask you any more
7 MR. MEEK: And I no longer need the ELMO at this point. So if it
8 could be lowered, I would appreciate it.
9 THE REGISTRAR: The marked map is entered as D1/33.
10 MR. MEEK:
11 Q. Witness LL, your force was a reconnaissance force; is that
13 A. It is.
14 Q. And earlier in a closed session, we spoke about Witness JJ. And
15 his unit was an intelligence unit; is that correct?
16 A. No, it is not. They were not doing intelligence work in that area
17 but information, and this information was transmitted to Spain. We did
18 not have a special intelligence unit to study this information and analyse
19 it as an intelligence document, as an intelligence piece of work.
20 Q. So, LL, then you're saying that JJ's work was, then, gathering
21 information and forwarding that information to the powers that may be in
22 Spain but not intelligence gathering.
23 A. Yes, you are quite right. He was - how shall I call it? - the
24 scribe of the second section of the Main Staff because he knew languages.
25 So he was writing down the -- he was writing these reports and then
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 sending them on to our superiors.
2 Q. And would Witness JJ receive information from you and your unit to
3 put into his reports?
4 A. Not to JJ but to the command, and the commander then gave it to
5 him to copy it, to make a transcript, and to send it to the higher level.
6 Q. And were you ever, during your tenure in Bosnia-Herzegovina, were
7 you ever at, physically at any meetings with military people from the HVO
8 or BiH with him? Were you at any of the meetings he attended, if you
10 A. I don't. I don't recall. Could be, because he was at the
11 headquarters in Medjugorje. Perhaps at some of the meetings attended by
12 HVO - BH army representatives came - or these representatives. It could
13 be that such a meeting to which my superiors sent me, it is quite possible
14 that he was also there. But I just do not recall it. Perhaps he was, but
15 I just don't know it, but I cannot affirm really that he was personally
16 present with me. I do not -- he merely -- possibly he escorted me, but we
17 did not work together there. This sector -- perhaps he would be -- he
18 would be taking videos or -- with buses with prisoners -- of buses with
19 prisoners and things like that.
20 JUDGE CLARK: One point of clarification: I think that JJ, when
21 he gave his evidence, said that he didn't take part in these high-level
22 meetings. His job was to direct where the people were to go, and he
23 played a very low-level role. He didn't take part in the meetings. And I
24 think that your question somehow misrepresents what he said yesterday.
25 I'd like you to clarify it with the witness.
1 MR. MEEK: Thank you, Judge Clark. I had the same problem with
2 Witness JJ. I didn't --
3 Q. Witness, when I meant -- I didn't mean that JJ would ever take
4 part in meetings, but I just wondered whether you saw him around the area
5 where the meetings were being conducted.
6 A. I cannot answer that because I don't know.
7 Q. Witness, I appreciate that. And if I ask you a question today
8 that you don't recall, just please tell me you do not recall it. Also, if
9 I ask a question that you don't understand, please tell me that you don't
10 understand the question and I'll try to rephrase it. Is that fair?
11 A. Thank you very much. What I'm doing is making a great effort to
12 try to help the Defence when you ask me about Mr. Tuta, and I'm trying to
13 be as accurate as possible, and I'm really sorry that perhaps at times I
14 cannot help you as much as you would like me to.
15 Q. Witness LL, you began your military training in what year, 1976?
16 A. I confirm, in 1976.
17 Q. And you have been, since that time, a professional soldier, and
18 now you are a major; correct?
19 A. Yes, that is correct.
20 Q. In your training and experience as a professional soldier, have
21 you had training on making reports?
22 A. This is one of the many things, that we received information not
23 only through reports but also in various military -- related military
24 matters too.
25 Q. And in your training and experience as a military officer of high
1 command, you understand the importance of making a complete report on any
2 incident; is that correct?
3 A. Yes, it is. That is how it is.
4 Q. Thank you. Witness LL, I must ask you how it came that you gave
5 an interview on the 3rd of November of 2000 with individuals and
6 representatives from the Office of the Prosecutor for this Tribunal.
7 A. Because the Ministry of Defence of Spain decided so.
8 Q. So the Ministry of Defence in Spain came and asked you to give a
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. You didn't volunteer?
12 A. Well, yes. It is -- it is voluntary in a way. If the army tells
13 me that I have to perform a task and to give my opinion about certain
14 things that I personally went through and that I have to provide the
15 facts, then I cannot deny that, because I indeed lived through that and
16 because I'm asked to do that and to comply with it.
17 Q. Maybe there's some confusion in translation, but basically my
18 question was: They came to you and asked you; you didn't come to them or
19 go to them and ask them?
20 A. Well, yes. I did not know that this gentleman had come to Spain
21 to get a statement from me and other people in Spain. I wasn't all that
22 in touch with the situation after ten years, and I didn't know that this
23 was going on.
24 I think that other commanders, my superiors, thought that it was I
25 because of the contacts that I had with other people and my superiors had
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 contacts with in the area, and therefore they indicated people who perhaps
2 could contribute information -- the Mostar information for this -- in this
4 Q. Witness LL, when you gave your statement to the Office of the
5 Prosecutor for this Tribunal, you were aware, were you not, that the
6 statement would be used in the Prosecution of Mr. Mladen Naletilic, known
7 as Tuta, did you not?
8 A. Could I seek the advice of my legal counsel, possibly? Could it
9 be possible?
10 JUDGE LIU: Witness, you have to understand that your legal
11 counsel here is to protect the interests of the State. If you believe
12 that this question touches upon the interests of the State, you have full
13 rights to consult with your legal counsel. But it seems to me it's just
14 an ordinary question. Of course, the decision will be made by yourself.
15 If you insist, we'll give you the opportunity.
16 A. Well, it was mostly to give as broad an answer that I can; that
17 is, I wanted to add something to the knowledge that they have, to give as
18 broad as possible an answer to this question. But be that as it may, I
19 would say that yes, indeed, I knew that there was an investigator from the
20 Prosecutor's office who had come to Spain related to this case. I did not
21 know whether this would be used in favour -- against or for both parties.
22 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Meek, is that the answer to your question?
23 MR. MEEK: That's the answer to that question, Your Honour, yes.
24 Thank you.
25 JUDGE LIU: You may proceed.
1 MR. MEEK:
2 Q. Witness LL, once you -- let me ask this question: How long did
3 the interview take for you to give your statement?
4 A. Well, more or less, it lasted like this session today. That is,
5 we had part of it in the morning and part of it was in the afternoon. And
6 we had a break for lunch, sufficiently long break for a decent lunch.
7 Q. At any point once the interview started did it become apparent to
8 you that the individuals who were taking your statement were focussing or
9 targeting Mr. Naletilic and what you knew about him specifically?
10 A. The truth is that everything began with general situation, and
11 then slowly, gradually as I was telling more and more about my experience
12 there and things that -- and my recollections, the investigator started to
13 stop me and requesting that I belabour those particular aspects. But I
14 was telling them about all my personal experience, about all that I went
15 through with all the individuals whom I met during that time. And yes --
16 in those instances when I referred to HVO, to my contacts, my friends,
17 yes, they sometimes requested more details. But I just told them all that
18 because I knew very many people also from the BH army command.
19 We also talked about the death of Mr. Hudruk who came from the BH
20 army, so this story was practically a monologue about all the experience
21 that I went through at the time.
22 Q. And at those times that the investigators would stop you and, as
23 you say, have you belabour a point about Mr. Naletilic, or Tuta, you told
24 them everything you could remember, did you not?
25 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Meek, you said "as you say." I could not recall
1 that witness said something particularly in this direction.
2 MR. MEEK: Page 75, line 10.
3 JUDGE LIU: Can you read the same sentence? I cannot see, you
4 know, the meaning that was expressed by you.
5 MR. MEEK: Your Honour, I apologise. I used the same word, at
6 least, that the translator used when this witness indicated in his prior
7 answers that while he gave his statement about all of his experiences, the
8 investigators "started to stop me and requesting that I belabour those
9 particular aspects."
10 JUDGE LIU: Yes, you may rephrase your question.
11 JUDGE DIARRA: [No interpretation]
12 MR. MEEK:
13 Q. Witness LL, do you mean that when you would get to certain parts
14 of your statement that involved Tuta, that they would stop you and have
15 you be more specific about him?
16 A. Yes. With him -- concerning him and all the other sources whom I
17 had contact with in the BH army and the HVO. And I also remember that I
18 explained about Humo and Hudruk and about all the military commanders that
19 I named, asking how much knowledge, how much information, how well I knew
20 each one of them.
21 Q. And to make the record clear, you arrived in Mostar in
22 approximately March, is that correct, and left in July?
23 A. Permanently, yes. I arrived in Mostar in March and then stayed
24 on, but my visits to Mostar were periodical. I came there from Jablanica
25 trying to deal with various matters personally with the chief of the Main
2 Q. And did you meet this individual by the name of Ivan Andabak prior
3 to your locating in Mostar in March of 1993?
4 A. Right now, I could not really say for certainty. I do not know
5 whether it was before -- prior to that. I know that Colonel Zorzo, I went
6 to the area. It could have been in mid-April. But right now, I cannot
7 say with certainty whether it was before that dinner.
8 Well, yes, somehow I think that I must have met him before and
9 exchanged with him some words prior to that, because Mr. Andabak was a man
10 who was very fond, and is very fond, of the Spanish forces. But whether
11 it was before March or after March, later on -- there was, for instance, a
12 Spanish car. He was a very human person, he had a good heart, and he
13 loved Spain. And he addressed me in Spanish. So I really cannot really
14 answer your question with complete precision -- with precision. But
15 after, following that dinner, my relations with him and with other people
16 who were at the dinner became closer because this first serious or
17 noteworthy relationship had already started.
18 Q. Thank you, Witness LL. And I would just ask you when you answer,
19 if you could maybe move a little bit back from the microphone. You're
20 moving towards it again.
21 Are you telling us today that your relationship with my client,
22 Tuta, became closer after the dinner?
23 A. Well, it could not really become particularly close because I
24 could not communicate with him as often as with other military colleagues
25 in the HVO or the BH army. But I could greet him as sporadically,
1 spontaneously when we would meet in the street, and to know physically who
2 that was. And then I merely begin to trust people with whom I deal, and
3 especially -- and to who had been introduced to me. And at that dinner,
4 at that meeting, there was this atmosphere of friendship and trust.
5 Q. Witness LL, thank you for that answer. But as I understand your
6 testimony and as I understand your statement that you gave to the OTP, you
7 only saw Mr. Tuta one time after this dinner very quickly on the street in
8 Siroki Brijeg. Is that correct?
9 A. Right. Now, in Siroki Brijeg, I think it was more than once. I
10 cannot remember. I'm quite sure that in Siroki Brijeg, it is quite true
11 that it could be that it was on more than one occasion. But I cannot
12 remember any other noteworthy meetings. There were more dinners with
13 military sources - it is quite true - that I had. But I do not remember
14 any other occasion that was as important as that one, as intensive as that
16 MR. MEEK: I would ask the usher to hand the statement that
17 Witness LL gave to the Office of the Prosecutor in November of 2000.
18 Q. Witness LL, the first page of that document indicates - and I
19 don't want you to tell me, obviously - but it tells your name and it says
20 your occupation. It says the languages you speak, does it not?
21 A. Yes, that is correct.
22 Q. And those two languages are Spanish and French; correct?
23 A. Yes, that is correct.
24 Q. Did you -- did you converse with my client, Tuta, in Spanish
25 and/or French?
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 A. No.
2 Q. Do you know whether or not my client, Mr. Naletilic, speaks
3 Spanish or French?
4 A. Perhaps he could say one sentence in Spanish, say "hello,"
5 "goodbye," a couple of words at most, but I don't know. A typical
6 "salut" expressing friendship, that is all.
7 Q. Could you turn to page 6 of that statement? And the third
8 paragraph from the top, the very first sentence. May you have your -- I
9 don't -- do you speak any English, Witness?
10 A. No. I'm very sorry, but I cannot understand English directly.
11 Q. Please don't be sorry. I speak no Spanish. And by the way, this
12 morning you didn't insult me whatsoever in not being able to pronounce
13 names. I have the same problem.
14 Could you have the interpreter read that first sentence for you.
15 Paragraph 3.
16 A. Yes, the first sentence is correct.
17 Q. That is a correct statement of the facts?
18 A. Yes, that is correct.
19 JUDGE LIU: What is the --
20 MR. MEEK: I'm getting to that, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
22 MR. MEEK:
23 Q. In that sentence, you said: "I met Tuta once more in Siroki
24 Brijeg on the street." Is that correct?
25 A. Yes, that is correct.
1 Q. And prior to that, you making that statement, you giving that
2 sentence, you had talked about meeting Tuta at the dinner party at
3 Andabak's house; correct?
4 A. Yes, that is correct.
5 Q. So then will you agree with me that you only met my client two
7 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
8 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, that's an unfair --
9 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
10 MR. SCOTT: He said "you met him twice in Siroki Brijeg." It's
11 unfair to say, "Does that mean you only met him two times?" He could have
12 met him somewhere else.
13 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Mr. Meek, do you hear the objection from the
15 MR. MEEK: Yes, I did. Let me rephrase my question.
16 Q. When you stated to the Office of the Prosecutor in November of
17 2000 that you met Tuta one more -- once more in Siroki Brijeg on the
18 street, what did you mean?
19 A. Yes. What I mean to say is that once again in Siroki Brijeg,
20 comma, on the street. I mean that it's the second time that I meet him in
21 Siroki Brijeg, and this time I met him on the street.
22 Q. Thank you. And the first time you met him in Siroki Brijeg was at
23 the dinner party at Mr. Ivan Andabak's house; correct?
24 A. Yes, that is correct.
25 Q. The month of that party, I believe you've indicated, was sometime
1 in April of 1993. Am I correct?
2 A. Yes. I'm sorry, I wanted to say something. The house of Ivan
3 Andabak was in Siroki Brijeg. That's why I repeated once again "in Siroki
5 Q. After the meeting in Siroki Brijeg on the street that you indicate
6 on page 6, did you ever meet Mr. Naletilic again?
7 A. Yes. I saw him at some opportunity very quickly on passing -- in
8 passing at HQ of HVO. But as I do not know exactly the day and the month,
9 I don't think it's really important, at least not for me. So I mentioned
10 this event because we stopped on the street to say hello.
11 Q. So after the meeting on the street in Siroki Brijeg where you said
12 hello and testified in direct examination that it was a very brief
13 meeting, you never spoke to Mr. Naletilic, Tuta, again, did you?
14 A. Well, after I met him in Siroki Brijeg, I don't remember. After
15 this time when we met on the street, I don't remember that I ever spoke to
16 him in a direct fashion. I just don't remember.
17 Q. And you just testified under oath that you think you remember or
18 you did remember seeing Tuta at the HVO headquarters, did you not?
19 A. Yes, that is correct.
20 Q. And is that the same headquarters and the buildings you described
21 this morning that Ivan Andabak had his offices?
22 A. It's the building where I saw Andabak once at a table. I think it
23 was in his office. And I saw other military men from the HVO. And I
24 remember that once in passing I saw him either going into or coming out of
25 the building, because there was a parking lot for cars, and I saw him
1 going into the building or out of the building. I don't remember exactly,
2 but sporadically.
3 Q. And again, to clear up your answer - and perhaps it's in the
4 translation - you are referring to Ivan Andabak's offices at the
5 headquarters of the HVO in Mostar that was located on the same street as
6 the cathedral of Mostar was situated?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Could you please turn to page 3 of your statement to the OTP and
9 go to the second full paragraph and ask your translator to please read you
10 or translate for you the last sentence of that second full paragraph.
11 Witness LL, you told the office of the OTP in November of 2000
12 that, among other things, you tried to see Andabak every two or three days
13 to get information; correct?
14 A. Well, I tried to set up contact not only with Ivan Andabak but
15 also with other military people from HVO - one of them was Andabak - and
16 also with forces of the BH army to see what was going on.
17 Q. Thank you. But I'm looking at your statement. You did try to see
18 Andabak every two or three days to get information; correct?
19 A. Yes. This is correct, because it's quite easy to have contacts
20 and know Spanish.
21 Q. And you also stated that you tried to bond with him and that you
22 did it openly.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And you told that he would always welcome you to his place,
25 especially at the headquarters that was located on the same street as the
1 cathedral of Mostar; correct?
2 A. Yes, this is correct.
3 Q. And then you told the office of the OTP that you did not remember
4 seeing Tuta in his office, didn't you?
5 A. Yes, this is correct.
6 Q. Thank you.
7 How many people were at the dinner party in Siroki Brijeg at the
8 house of Ivan Andabak that you have described today in your testimony?
9 A. Well, how many exactly? I think I remember on the Spanish side,
10 Colonel Zorzo, his interpreter, Witness LL, Mr. Tuta, Mr. Ivan, his wife
11 Juani. His daughter, I think, appeared at some point during the dinner
12 party. An elderly person, I don't know whether she was Tuta's -- no, I'm
13 sorry -- Ivan Andabak's mother or some relative of Ivan Andabak's. And
14 bodyguards that I think were Ivan Andabak's bodyguards.
15 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Meek, I don't believe there's a need for you to
16 turn off your mike because we hear quite a noise through the earphone.
17 MR. MEEK: Shall I keep it on?
18 JUDGE LIU: I think so. Because this witness is not
19 under the protection of voice distortion.
20 MR. MEEK: Thank you.
21 Q. In the last answer when you were naming the people that were at
22 the dinner party, you mentioned LL. Did you mean JJ?
23 A. I meant myself.
24 Q. Okay. I knew you were there. And the question, the other people
25 that were there, I wondered when you mentioned LL if you actually meant
2 A. No, I meant myself, my person.
3 Q. Do you recall about what time that party started and what time the
4 party broke up?
5 A. Well, I know that it was in the late afternoon. The sun had set.
6 But this is not valuable information because I believe that the sun sets
7 from 5.00 p.m. or 6.00 p.m. And we finished rather late at night. I
8 don't know. Over midnight or at 1.00 a.m. I don't know. I'm trying to
9 specify the hour. I don't remember the exact hour.
10 Q. Of course not, not eight years later, nine years later.
11 Do you recall, Witness LL, if everybody at the party enjoyed
12 themselves with food and drink?
13 A. Yes, there was no problem at all within the limitations set by the
14 fact that we had to eat and drink with precaution.
15 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Meek, what a peculiar question you asked. Is that
16 relevant to this case, whether they enjoyed their drink?
17 MR. MEEK: The next question is relevant, Your Honour. I had to
18 set the stage for my next question.
19 Q. How much did you drink that night, LL?
20 A. Well, I don't -- I usually don't drink much when I am wearing my
21 uniform, and I'm not a drinking man. I don't like alcohol very much, so I
22 take as little as I possibly can. Sometimes there's a toast or there's
23 something to -- some alcohol during dinner. But I don't remember. And I
24 know that when I left, I wasn't dizzy or anything like that, because a
25 military man shouldn't give this image to others.
1 Q. So you drank enough alcohol that you did not become dizzy, but you
2 did drink alcohol that night; correct?
3 A. Well, sincerely, I cannot say. I can't remember.
4 Q. Well, the reason I ask is because apparently, according to your
5 testimony today, approximately two days later, you typed up or generated a
6 report that concerned my client, Tuta. Am I correct?
7 A. Yes, this is correct.
8 Q. And did you do anything between the date of the dinner party and
9 your generating of this report, which concerned my client, to corroborate
10 any of the information contained in that report?
11 A. Yes, I believe that I explained this perfectly in the statement
12 you got.
13 Q. Okay.
14 A. You've got it with you, haven't you?
15 Q. Yes, I do. And I would like you, if you could, to turn to page 6
16 again of that report, since you explained everything in it, the sixth
17 paragraph down. Can you read it to him.
18 Witness LL, you told the Office of the Prosecutor investigators in
19 November of last year that, "I had all the information about Tuta from
20 Andabak." Isn't that what you told the Office of the Prosecutor?
21 A. Yes, this is correct.
22 Q. Thank you very much.
23 A. But the first person --
24 Q. What I'm wondering about --
25 A. Please. The first person that gave me exact data about his life
1 was him, in trust. And then this information I completed later on, thanks
2 to data of Ivan Andabak and other sources -- military sources of HVO that
3 were close to Tuta gave me. But I could not obtain any information about
4 Tuta earlier on because I had never met him and I didn't know exactly that
5 he existed at all. And it was him, Tuta, himself in a very friendly
6 fashion in full trust gave me all this data. And as from that time, I
7 wanted to hear about Mr. Tuta, his friend that he had introduced me to;
8 and therefore, I completed all the data on him thanks to Ivan Andabak and
9 other sources of information of HVO. Thank you.
10 Q. So, what you're telling us today is that after the dinner party,
11 in the next 48 hours or 2 days, you talked to Ivan Andabak and other
12 military sources of the HVO that were close to Tuta before you generated
13 the report that you generated. Is that what happened?
14 A. No, not exactly. Because this report, I think I remember at least
15 that when I got to Medjugorje, I started drafting this report, even though
16 this report was handed over two days later. But the first thing I did was
17 to draft it, and this is what I usually do in order to remember exactly
18 what happened, all the data.
19 Q. Did you get back to your headquarters in Medjugorje that evening?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And you started working on the report that night?
22 A. Normally, this is what I usually do. I never leave it for the
23 next day. At least the first few important notes, the key ideas, I put
24 them down on paper. And then perhaps the next day I complete the
25 information with some details. But the main ideas, I usually write them
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 down immediately and even, sometimes, in my own personal agenda.
2 Q. What do you mean by your own personal agenda?
3 A. Well, I mean, it's a personal notebook I carry with me to jot down
4 ideas that occur to me, and then I take notes. I jot them down.
5 Q. It's just a matter of language, Witness LL. You mean like a
7 A. No, it's not a diary, because there's a diary of operations. It's
8 just a notebook where I write down a few ideas, four or five key ideas,
9 and then I later develop them.
10 Q. Do you still have that notebook today?
11 A. No.
12 Q. And then in the few days it took you to complete this report, you
13 spoke with Ivan Andabak again?
14 A. We are talking about this dinner party that took place
15 approximately -- according to the documents we can look at, it took place
16 at the beginning of April, on the 5th or 6th of April. And now, at this
17 point, I cannot remember two days later whether I spoke to Ivan Andabak.
18 It's impossible for me to tell you just now whether it was two days
19 later. I just don't know.
20 Q. I'm trying to understand your testimony, Witness LL. And if I'm
21 wrong, correct me. But I believe in direct examination you testified that
22 the report was generated and handed in approximately two days after the
23 dinner party.
24 A. Yes, this is correct.
25 Q. And this afternoon, you've told me under oath that before it was
1 finished, you had spoken with Andabak and other close HVO acquaintances of
2 Mr. Tuta. Correct?
3 MR. SCOTT: I object, Your Honours.
4 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
5 MR. SCOTT: I think that's a mischaracterisation of the testimony
7 MR. MEEK: Let me ask it a different way.
8 Q. Witness LL, did you speak with any person, or persons, between
9 your first meeting at the dinner party at Ivan Andabak's home where you
10 met Tuta and when you turned in this report that concerned Tuta?
11 A. Sincerely, I cannot remember.
12 Q. You indicated in your direct testimony that as an overall
13 assessment of reliability on the reports that you did for the military
14 staffs, you took information from both members of the HVO and the ABiH
15 army and civilians; correct?
16 A. This is correct.
17 Q. And you indicated that perhaps they would tell you good details if
18 they wanted to tell you the truth.
19 A. It is correct.
20 Q. Do you believe that there is -- strike the question. I want to
21 ask a different question.
22 You also indicated that when you first met Ivan Andabak, you and
23 he talked about being in the same line of business or counterparts; is
24 that correct?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Witness LL, did it ever occur to you that Ivan Andabak would lie
2 to you?
3 A. Not only Andabak but any other sources, they cannot [as
4 interpreted] lie.
5 Q. What do you mean "they cannot lie"? They can lie.
6 MR. MEEK: Well, that's not what it says in the transcript.
7 A. I believe that something happened in the translation of my words.
8 The sources can always lie. It's -- it depends on the degree of
9 trust, on what they want to tell us. So normally there's a contrast, work
10 done with the information coming from other sources.
11 MR. MEEK:
12 Q. Thank you, LL. And I think I have time for one further question
13 before we break today.
14 Your life experiences and common sense tell you that it's very
15 rare indeed that a person can meet another person for the very first time
16 in their life and gain complete trust from that person; isn't that a
18 A. I'm not like that. I normally, usually trust people I talk to,
19 because I open myself to them, and I think that others do the same. This
20 has been my experience. Perhaps it has made me carry out mistakes, but if
21 I look at people's eyes, if I'm invited to their homes, if we speak in a
22 friendly atmosphere, I do not think that these people are lying to me. I
23 try to help this person, I try to understand them. And we were there to
24 help everybody. And sometimes this could affect my life, but I think that
25 being sincere is the first thing you have to do when you talk to other
2 Q. That is an excellent way to live your life, Witness LL, but will
3 you agree with me that not everybody lives their life as you do and
4 trusting immediately?
5 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Meek, we have to stop here.
6 MR. MEEK: Thank you.
7 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik. Yes.
8 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Thank you,
9 Your Honour. I wanted to raise two things. The first is the confusion
10 with maps.
11 I'm the one to be held responsible for it, because the binder that
12 the Prosecution gave us - and these are exhibits from 1 to 52 - includes
13 the map that Mr. Meek -- the first map that Mr. Meek showed, without the
14 municipality of Stolac. And this binder was given us at the time of
15 depositions, from your learned friends in the Prosecution.
16 The binder that we were given at the beginning of this case,
17 including exhibits from P1 to P60, includes the same map but with the
18 Stolac municipality included. And therefore, in conclusion, we have two
19 identical maps that were given by the Prosecution. One is with and one is
20 without the municipality of Stolac, and we just oversaw that.
21 And the second issue I wish to raise - but I do not want to waste
22 your time because it's already past 4.00 - I'd just like to remind you of
23 the request I made regarding our tomorrow's work. If you have already
24 decided, if not, then never mind. I'll decide what to do later on.
25 JUDGE LIU: Well, this morning we heard an oral request from
1 Mr. Krsnik asking not to sit on Friday afternoon. The reason of this
2 request is that he may be absent during that period.
3 This Trial Chamber could not accept this reason since each Defence
4 team has its co-counsel to look after the interests of their client. As I
5 understood, Mr. Meek is very competent in defending his client's interests
6 and rights before this Chamber.
7 As for whether we are going to sit or not tomorrow afternoon, it
8 all depends on the ongoing proceedings of this case. As a principle, in
9 order to avoid the contamination of the witness, we would not like to have
10 a witness under oath for a long period without appearance in the
11 courtroom. This is also for the interest of justice and fairness before
12 this Chamber.
13 So if we cannot finish with this witness, as well as the previous
14 witness, Witness KK, we have to sit tomorrow afternoon. Thank you.
15 We will adjourn until 9.30 tomorrow morning.
16 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.05 p.m.,
17 to be reconvened on Friday, the 9th day
18 of November, 2001, at 9.30 a.m.