1 Thursday, 22 November 2001
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The accused Naletilic not present]
5 [The witness entered court]
6 --- Upon commencing at 9.33 a.m.
7 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Scott, before you start, I have to say something.
8 This morning, we only have two hours in sitting. We will start now and we
9 will have a break at 10.30. Then we will have 30 minutes' break. We will
10 resume. We are advised to empty this room at 12.00 sharp.
11 Another thing is that this Trial Chamber will issue an order about
12 the scheduling arrangement before Christmas, because we are soon going to
13 have the videolink witness and we have to share the courtroom with other
14 cases. So there will be a lot of changes of our sitting schedule as well
15 as the courtrooms.
16 Yes, Madam Registrar, call the case, please.
17 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number
18 IT-98-34-T, the Prosecutor versus Martinovic and Naletilic.
19 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Scott, you may continue.
20 WITNESS: WITNESS QQ [Resumed]
21 [Witness answered through interpreter]
22 Examined by Mr. Scott: [Continued]
23 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. President.
24 Q. Witness QQ, good morning.
25 A. Good morning.
1 Q. I'm going to remind you at the outset of some of the problems we
2 had yesterday, and please try to speak slowly and clearly, and also
3 mindful of the time between your speaking and my speaking.
4 A. I understand but I was always a fast speaker. However, I'll do my
5 best. Thanks.
6 Q. While you were being held at the Heliodrom, sir, did you meet with
7 a commander of one of the HV units that was located in that area?
8 A. Yes, I did.
9 Q. Who was that, and can you just tell us the circumstances of how
10 you came to meet with this individual?
11 A. I met -- I saw Stela several times. He came to Heliodrom on more
12 than one occasion. He took out those convicts, inmates. There were
13 several HVO brigades, including Bruno Busic and some independent
14 brigades. And as I said, I had known Stela for over 20 years. I didn't
15 want to speak too much or even testify, but when he cursed me yesterday,
16 he was trying to distribute all his forces, the police and all the rest of
17 the units, but I must say that Stela and Tuta helped me personally a lot,
18 but they harmed a lot of other people. And I came here to speak up for
19 the dead.
20 And if I may add to what I said yesterday, I can kill as well as
21 Stela can kill. I can fight as well as Stela can fight. I was accused
22 just as Stela. And I hate for anyone to be accused to be guilty. I find
23 it difficult to testify against someone who is accused, but I wanted to
24 help everyone.
25 Q. I'm going to cut you off. You have not answered my question.
1 Please listen to my question and answer my question, please. The question
2 that I put to you was: While you were at the Heliodrom, did you meet with
3 a commander of any units of the army of Croatia, the HV army? Can you
4 answer that question, please?
5 A. Oh, yes. It was Ivan Kozul, the commander of the Tigers. He was
6 commander at that time. There were many Bosnians at that time whom I
7 knew. I knew Tigers from the Croatian war and Pumes and other units such
8 as Thunderbolts, Gromovi.
9 Q. Do you recall what the rank of this officer Kozul was and where
10 was it you met him?
11 A. Not a single soldier, not a single officer at that time wore
12 insignia or markings of rank. I can tell ranks, but when operations
13 started, they took them off. I found out that the General was Bunik
15 Q. The General of what was Bunik?
16 A. Of that Tiger brigade.
17 Q. All right. Well, perhaps you can assist us in this way: If you
18 were familiar with the Tigers from Croatia and otherwise, what would the
19 rank of their commanding officer -- what rank would their commanding
20 officer or their senior officers possess? Would they be considered a
21 general, a colonel, a major, or can you assist us, please, with that?
22 A. Well, they were promoted -- they went very fast up the ladder;
23 major, colonel, general, brigade general. There were various ranks, and
24 they were promoted very fast. It was not a Tito's officers' academy. It
25 was wartime, and people went up the ladder very fast.
1 Q. Before I move on, I just want to ask you; you do not recall the
2 rank of this officer Kozul?
3 A. For a while, he was a colonel and then he was promoted. I
4 remember him when he was a colonel.
5 THE INTERPRETER: It may have been not General Bunik but
6 Major-General. It needs to be clarified with the witness.
7 MR. SCOTT:
8 Q. Witness, we've had a request from translation for you to assist us
9 further. When you mentioned a few minutes ago this other officer named
10 Bunik, what title or rank did you give to him, because the translation was
11 not clear?
12 A. It was Major-General, or Colonel-General. Commander of that
14 THE INTERPRETER: The difference is between the words bojnik,
15 which means "major," and Bunik, which may be a family name.
16 MR. SCOTT: Thank you.
17 Q. Around this time, did you see any other placements of HV units or
18 equipment in the area of Mostar?
19 A. Yes, I saw them very well. All over the place, there was a lot of
20 Croatian troops, various brigades deployed around the railway bridge
21 towards Visnje, the cherry fields. That's one of the places where I
22 worked pulling out the Croatian soldiers and prisoners. There were
23 Tigers, Pumes, Thunderbolts, the Slavonian brigade, the 111th Brigade, the
24 Rijeka unit. They were deployed in Rastani, Bijelo Polje, Mala Polje, and
25 so on. There were some on Vakuf, at Varda. Heavy weaponry, tanks,
2 I remember Varda because that's where Blaz Kraljevic was, and I
3 remember the road because I did some digging by that road. We were
4 digging trenches, and I remember that road well because that's the road we
5 took from Ljubuski to Heliodrom --
6 Q. All right, Witness, I'm going to cut you off, please. Did you, in
7 fact, as you were just saying -- you've given us in the last couple
8 minutes a couple of locations. Were you required to work in those number
9 of locations, and is that one of the reasons why you have the information
10 that you have?
11 A. Yes. A lot of prisoners were taken to work on numerous locations,
12 wherever there was a line between the BH army and the HVO. And they went
13 in groups to various locations.
14 I was in all of those places while I was imprisoned in the camp,
15 and I was a detainee for nine, ten months.
16 Q. Now, I'm going to direct your attention to one particular
17 location, and I'm going to mention to you -- you may have been at this
18 location more than once. At the moment, I'm asking you about the first
19 time you were there. And that is at the location called Brkanovo Brdo.
20 Did you ever work at that location?
21 A. Yes, Brkanovo Brdo, or Brkan Hill, was a place I worked about a
22 month, together with another 10 or 15 workers.
5 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
6 MR. SCOTT: 18 or 19.
7 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
8 MR. SCOTT:
9 Q. All right. Now, Witness, before you continue with that story, let
10 me ask you, in connection with working at this location or coming back
11 from that location to the Heliodrom, did you have any encounters with any
12 HVO soldiers that you had had dealings with or had contact with before?
13 A. Yes, I did. I met up there with a certain Robi who had beaten us
14 in Duvno, where he was drunk a lot of the time. I remember him well
15 because he's the one who broke two of my ribs. And when we were coming
16 back from Brkanovo Brdo, a small van was picking up the camp inmates, and
17 there was a waste dump nearby. The van was picking up inmates along the
18 way. He picked us up near this waste dump. The van stopped. The soldier
19 who was guarding us was also tipsy, but he was a nice man otherwise. I
20 don't remember clearly, but I kept a diary on critical days at least. He
21 took us out and lined us up, and he selected those people whom he knew, I
22 think. He took them away from the bus, from the van, about ten metres or
23 so, and I heard a shot, maybe even a burst of gunfire, a full clip
24 perhaps. Those men did not return to the van. We were panic-stricken.
25 We thought that our turn would come too.
1 Q. All right. Witness, I'm going to stop you there for a moment ask
2 you a few questions about that. You said, for instance, "He took them
3 away from the bus, from the van." Who is the "he" you're referring to?
4 A. I'm sorry, I'm sorry. You've already warned me about this. I
5 meant Robi. I had him in mind all the time; Robert, Robi.
6 Q. All right. And how many men did he identify and take away, as you
7 told us about a moment ago?
8 A. Four men.
9 Q. Now, I want to continue on. Was there another time that you were
10 working at the Brkanovo Brdo in which you could again see things happening
11 in Mostar?
12 A. Yes. I worked there on several occasions. One of the dugouts was
13 destroyed. The retranslating device of Mostar is located there, used to
14 help land planes. I don't know who destroyed it. Maybe the Serbian army
15 from Velez, maybe the BH army. Perhaps the BH army couldn't do it from
16 this low point. But it doesn't matter anyway. On two or three occasions,
17 shelling of the old bridge, Stari Most, was announced, and I remember well
18 - I have a good memory - there were many troops there, and officers
19 forced us to go on a hill, and I heard somebody saying on a Motorola that
20 all barrels should be pointed at Stari Most and that shelling should
22 Q. All right. Witness, I'm going to stop you there for a moment.
23 I'd like, with the usher's assistance, to show you a couple of
25 MR. SCOTT: First off, could I ask, please, that the witness be
1 shown, out of Exhibit P11, it's photo number 16 specifically.
2 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
3 MR. SCOTT: My apology. That will not identify the witness, so I
4 suggest this could be placed on the ELMO, please.
5 Q. Now, Witness, I don't think it will be disputed at this point, I
6 hope, that this is a photograph of Mount Hum. Can you see any features,
7 man-made features, on that mountain that you can identify as having been
8 constructed in connection with the war? And perhaps you yourself may have
9 been involved in working at some of those locations. Maybe -- if you can
10 take -- orient yourself, please, and perhaps take a pointer, and if you
11 can point out any of the features on the hill.
12 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik.
13 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, thank you for giving me
14 this opportunity to object. I have tried to keep my silence so far,
15 although the witness is not answering the questions. He is just saying
16 whatever he pleases. But the Prosecutor has a lot of experience, and he
17 is trying to lead him.
18 We have no problem with this photograph. We don't challenge it,
19 but at least the Prosecutor could have asked him what he recognised on
20 this photograph. However, we let this pass. I think there is a problem
21 with the way the witness is being examined. I think the question should
22 have been, Please, what you see on the photograph, instead of saying to
23 him what it was and asking him to confirm. The Prosecutor has just said
24 what this photograph was all about. And all he left for the witness to do
25 was to confirm.
1 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, at this stage in these proceedings, is
2 there a bona fide dispute that this feature is Mount Hum? I will be
3 surprised and shocked if that's the case. Why are we wasting time in this
4 sort of manner?
5 JUDGE LIU: Since there is an objection, Mr. Scott, you may lead
6 the witness step by step.
7 MR. SCOTT: Thank you.
8 Q. Can you point outside to us, sir, any of the man-made features on
9 this geographic feature that you are familiar with, just by points of
10 reference? I don't mean every one of them, but if you're familiar with or
11 were involved in working in connection with any of them, can you please
12 point them out.
13 A. I can see it very well. And I am responding to Defence counsel; I
14 don't even need this picture to tell you. I've worked this on several
15 locations. There's an old dugout left over from the Turkish times, PATs,
16 Pams, and the recoilless cannon were located, stationed there, and we
17 were --
18 Q. Excuse me. It would help us, as I've asked you to do, can you
19 take the pointer, please, and point out on this photograph the location
20 you're presently telling us about.
21 A. [Indicates]
22 Q. All right, well, that was awfully quick. You were just telling us
23 about a particular bunker. Can you point that out, please, with your
24 pointer and stay on it for a moment so everyone can see what you're
25 talking about.
1 A. [Indicates]
2 Q. Did you work at any of the other locations, any other man-made
3 features on that photograph that you can see, in connection with forced
4 labour? And if you can, just point them out briefly to us.
5 A. [Indicates]
6 Q. Very good. Thank you.
7 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, I'm not marking those because it's not
8 that central, but I wanted the Chamber to have some orientation to the
9 overall location for purposes of the witness's testimony.
10 Q. You said a moment ago, sir, that, at least in part, you could see
11 on this photograph the location near -- forgive me -- Brkanovo Brdo, or at
12 least close to it. Can you point out on the photograph as close as you
13 can - and I acknowledge it may be off the page - but as close as you can
14 where that feature or location is located.
15 A. From the right-hand side, it's on the right-hand side of Brkanovo
17 The INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Mr. Scott.
18 MR. SCOTT:
19 Q. There's a bit more photograph that could be displayed -- well, for
20 some reason, it doesn't seem to be on that version.
21 MR. SCOTT: Excuse me, can we back away from the photo a bit.
22 My apologies, Mr. President. The version on this is a bit
23 different. It's the same photo, but it has been cut a bit differently.
24 Can I ask the usher's assistance, please, to put this map, number 16, on
25 the ELMO, please.
1 Now, if you can pull out so you can see the far right part of the
2 picture, please. A bit more. Perhaps move the whole picture a little bit
3 to the left -- we don't need to see the other part now.
4 Q. Witness, can you now--
5 MR. SCOTT: No, you just cut off more of it. What I want to see
6 is the far right of the picture, please. I guess that's the best we can
8 Q. Witness, my apologies for the difficulties. Can you please now
9 point on that photograph, as close as you can, the feature Brkanovo Brdo.
10 A. Well, it's right here that this small depression starts, Brkanovo
11 Brdo. And here to the right is the link with Hum. There is a road which
12 leads to Siroki Brijeg, down to Citluk.
13 Q. Now, you also mentioned, I believe, a few minutes ago in your
14 testimony, that from this location where you were working, you could see
15 the old bridge known as Stari Most. In fact, that's what that means in --
16 A. Very well, very well indeed, both from Hum and Brkanovo Brdo.
17 MR. SCOTT: All right. Could I ask the witness next to be shown,
18 please, from the same photograph 11, photo number 3. And Madam Registrar,
19 if I could have your assistance on this, perhaps you could -- if you have
20 a yellow sticky or something, you could block any identifying marks on the
22 Mr. Usher could you put it on the ELMO, please.
23 Q. Now, Witness QQ, can you please identify what you see in that
24 photograph. And there again, perhaps it can be shown more -- a little bit
25 more on the right side of the photograph. Can you tell us, please, what
1 feature you see prominent in this photograph.
2 A. I shall turn my head so that the lord doesn't object. I have
3 never -- I have never been on the old bridge. And I'll tell you now,
4 there was some scaffolding here, and there was a rope and some old tyres
5 hanging on a concrete pillar.
6 Q. All right. Now, Witness, all right, I understand what you've told
7 us just now, and you say you've never physically walked or been on the
8 bridge. My question to you is this the sort of view -- is this what you
9 could see, something like this, when you said you were at this Brkanovo
10 Brdo location?
11 A. Why, of course, I was not next to the old bridge, around the camp.
12 Q. All right. Sir, I'm sorry if my question wasn't clear. Let me go
13 back. You were working at this location you told us about a few minutes
14 ago, at Brkanovo Brdo. You told us that, from that location, you could
15 see the Stari Most.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Now, does this photograph represent what you could see,
18 approximately? I'm not saying exactly this, but this is approximately
19 what you could see from that location?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. All right. Now, you've told us that you heard -- overheard an
22 order being given that all guns come to bear on the bridge. Can you tell
23 us more about that, please?
24 A. I did. We were still working, getting ready, bringing the shells
25 in their crates, ammunition. There was quite a lot of it, and naturally,
1 officers and soldiers and those serving howitzers and tanks, and I could
2 hear Motorolas when orders were issued to turn all the barrels on the old
4 Q. From where you were -- excuse me, from where you were located,
5 could you see any particular -- excuse me, artillery tanks or equipment
6 that appeared to be firing in the direction of the old bridge?
7 A. Yes, some of us took shelter behind a node. We tried to get some
8 shelter. And as far as I can remember, there were three tanks, three
9 howitzers, a number of rocket launchers, then anti-aircraft guns and
10 machine-guns, the self-propelled recoilless guns, and so on. I'm familiar
11 with weapons.
12 Q. Let me ask you specifically concerning the tanks that you saw, can
13 you identify those tanks as being part of or associated with any
14 particular military unit?
15 A. I did, yes. I knew. I remember that there were one or two tanks
16 which came from the Croatian army, and they had no plates, no
17 registration. It was covered with a plastic sticker over the -- over the
18 paint where it said -- where it should say "Tigrovi," the Tigers. There
19 were also HVO, and they did say -- they did have inscriptions "HVO" so
20 that one could clearly see that. And all the Mostarans who were in the
21 camp can confirm it. They know better than I do various places. I know
22 only the places that I remembered because it was -- because these were the
23 places where I suffered. I also remember places where I felt well. So
24 that is it.
25 Q. Let me ask you the question about the marking on this particular
1 tank. You've told us that these markings -- or some of the markings on
2 the tank were covered over. I want to give you the opportunity to explain
3 this. If markings were covered over, how could you identify the tank as
4 an HV tank or a Tigers tank?
5 A. I knew many members of the Tigers, and that was how I could prove,
6 see, spot, know, because they were naturally Croatian soldiers, and they
7 were handling their own weapons, and the HVO had their weapons, and they
8 used those.
9 Q. Can I ask you to tell the Chamber, please, of what you could
10 observe on that day, at that time, could you see any officer -- did you
11 see any HV or HVO officers around the location where these tanks were
13 A. Yes. That's where Stela and Tuta turned up, and Reuf Ajanovic, a
14 fiend, the man who married Mirjana Barbaric, and she was a cook up there,
15 a good woman, and I knew that Ajanovic from before, from Iraq where we
16 worked there together.
17 Q. Let me ask you, please, how far away were you from this group of
18 officers that you saw on the hillside?
19 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik?
20 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we again have some
21 problems with translation. I know we talked yesterday with our
22 distinguished interpreters how difficult it is - and we all understand
23 that - how very difficult it is to interpret this gentleman, this witness,
24 because even for us it is very difficult to follow him, even though we
25 speak the same language. He said -- he answered the Prosecutor's question
1 if he had seen some Croatian officers, and that is line 18, he used the
2 word "happened to be there, turned up there." It means they just happened
3 to be there. They turned up there. They found themselves there. So it
4 is an idiom in Bosnian-Croatian version of the language. It does not mean
5 that they were there all the time. They just happened to be there. They
6 turned up there. They fetched up there.
7 JUDGE LIU: Well, I think that's a problem of the language. I
8 believe that the interpreters have done their utmost to translate for us.
9 They are very, very careful in those things. I do not know the situation
10 in the former Yugoslavia, but in China, there are thousands and thousands
11 of dialects. It's difficult to understand certain dialects. At this
12 point, first, I would like to ask the witness to speak very slowly and
13 clearly so that we could get all what you are going to say.
14 And secondly, Mr. Scott, would you please clear up that point?
15 MR. SCOTT: Yes, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
17 MR. SCOTT: Yes, Your Honour, I will.
18 Q. First off, Witness, let's go back to the names that you mentioned
19 just now because I think counsel is correct that they may not have been --
20 A. Yeah, sure.
21 Q. -- fully indicated on the transcript. So the officers that you
22 saw that day, at the time you've been telling us about when you saw the
23 Stari Most and the tanks firing, who did you see on the hillside, and if
24 you can, give us the names very slowly and if you can assist us with even
25 a spelling, that would be of help as well.
1 A. There was Vinko Martinovic, called Stela. There was Tuta. There
2 was this Kozul. And there were a number of commanders whose names I
3 didn't know.
4 MR. SCOTT: I'm looking at the transcript, Mr. President. That
5 seems to be correct.
6 In terms of the question of counsel --
7 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik.
8 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. The witness
9 said, after Kozul, "And a number of senior officers whose names I do not
10 know." The witness said very clearly that, "It was a large number of
11 senior officers whose names I don't know."
12 MR. SCOTT: I'm not sure what the objection is, Your Honour. If
13 that's what the witness said, that's what the witness said. I do think
14 it's fair to say that, in the prior answer, I think I recall him saying
15 the name "Ajanovic." If that's the question that counsel is suggesting he
16 didn't mention one of the names again, I would suggest that I did hear the
17 name "Ajanovic" --
18 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, my apologies to my
19 learned friend. It is very clearly, again, the translation is not as it
20 should be, and the witness has verified. We all hear that, and there can
21 be no dispute, Colleague Scott. When the witness listed names, he said,
22 "Vinko Martinovic, Tuta [sic]; Vinko Martinovic, Stela; Kozul; and a
23 large number of senior commanders whose names I do not know," and that is
24 not how the transcript says. And I think it is very clear, and the
25 witness confirms -- I mean, he confirms with his head that he said that so
1 I do not see what the dispute is. I merely wanted to intervene because of
2 the Honourable Court, because I wanted the transcript to reflect properly
3 what the witness --
4 JUDGE CLARK: I think, Mr. Krsnik, if there were a race there to
5 see who spoke faster, you would win.
6 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I apologise.
7 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, on page 13, line 21 and 22, there's a
8 reference to a - I'm sorry, I keep looking up and losing it - Reuf and
9 another name. And all I simply asked, because of the question that was
10 raised about accuracy, I asked the witness to go back and also give us
11 correctly that name. That's the only point.
12 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] It's not the names that are at stake
13 here. It seems that there's a complete misunderstanding here. It has
14 nothing to do with the names. We are only talking about accurate
15 interpretation. We want the accurate interpretation of what the witness
16 says, nothing else, and that is why I stood up. I'm not interested in any
17 names at all. But when the witness said the number, that is, "a large
18 number of senior commanders," "of senior commanders whose names I don't
19 know," is what's at dispute here.
20 JUDGE LIU: Well, we have been informed that the witness said that
21 those people happened to be there, or turned out to be, or something like
22 this. You may ask some questions along this line.
23 MR. SCOTT: Very well, Mr. President. Thank you. Mr. President,
24 it may not be important to the counsel, but it is important, I submit, to
25 the record that the names be correct, and that's why, again, I asked the
1 witness to confirm and to give us the correct spelling if he had also
2 previously mentioned the name, which I believe he did, Reuf Ajanovic.
3 Q. Before we go further, did you tell us a few minutes ago that you
4 also saw someone named Reuf, R-E-U-F, Ajanovic at that location?
5 A. I did. I remember it very well. A big man like Stela, strongly
6 built, and I know him. I recognised him up there at Siroki Brijeg and in
7 Mostar, and on the front lines. Reuf Ajanovic. He used to work for
8 Hidrogradnja and we worked together at a construction site in Iraq.
9 Q. [Microphone not activated] ... on that point.
10 Witness QQ, perhaps you have heard some of the exchanges over the
11 last few minutes. Counsel has raised a question over the proper
12 interpretation, I suppose, of what you just said.
13 Did you see a number of officers who -- and I cannot say this in
14 any way in your language, of course, but something to the effect that
15 these officers showed up there or were seen to turn up at this location?
16 A. No. These people were there. Now, how they fetched up there, how
17 they happened to be there, I do not know. I do not know that.
18 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, I think that's all the clarification I
19 can give the Chamber. There was never a suggestion, I don't believe,
20 either by the witness or by me, that those officers -- any particular one
21 of those officers gave any particular order. All the witness has said is
22 that he saw this grouping of officers -- a number of officers at that
23 location. How they turned up there or not, he hasn't given us any more
24 detail. And I think that's all I'm asking him.
25 Q. All right. Now, Witness QQ, we're changing subjects again, and I
1 say that because -- just to avoid confusion.
2 Did you ever have a conversation while being held at the Heliodrom
3 with one of the senior officials there about somehow obtaining your
5 A. Yes. I asked that Boro and Smiljanic and a number of people, and
6 I said one fights to survive and then realises that his life is nothing
7 but a fly's life. So I asked who is the number one in the camp? Can I go
8 to him and see him? I didn't know the man, and I cannot guarantee whether
9 that man was or was not. But he went to ask him to admit me, to see me,
10 and it's somebody called -- it's one Praljak. That is what I was told,
11 that he was a general, too.
12 Q. All right. Now, excuse me. You just said that you cannot
13 guarantee whether that man was or was not. Now what did you mean by
14 that? Whether he was or was not the head of the Heliodrom, or what were
15 you trying to tell us?
16 A. Yes, I cannot guarantee, of course.
17 Q. Did you have a conversation with this man named Praljak?
18 A. I had it. Yes, I could even identify him, unless the man has
19 changed seriously. Can I go out to third countries? Because I have been
20 abroad, I have been in France. Can you let me go in some way or other? I
21 could not suffer the treatment any longer. I had lost a lot of weight. I
22 was weakened. And he said, I'm not for that, for the exchange, for
23 release because there is Jadranko Prlic for that. And once again, I then
24 met Jadranko Prlic at the Ero Hotel [Realtime transcript read in error
25 "^ Hotel"] when we were assigned there to dig and things of that sort.
1 Q. You just mentioned the name of a hotel, I believe. What location
2 is that?
3 A. It is the Hotel Ero. That is what I heard, that the hotel was
4 called Ero. That's where they held their meetings.
5 Q. All right.
6 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, can we go into private session for one
7 moment, please?
8 JUDGE LIU: We'll go to the private session, please.
9 [Private session]
12 Pages 6282-6288 – redacted – private session
8 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.
9 --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.
15 [Open session]
16 MR. SCOTT:
17 Q. Witness QQ, we are on the subject of possibility of prisoners at
18 the Heliodrom obtaining their release from custody as a result of money
19 being paid. Did you ever have any conversations with this Reuf Ajanovic
20 about that?
21 A. Yes, I did. I talked to him at Siroki Brijeg. I learned that
22 Reuf, whom I knew, had changed his name to Stipo Barbaric and married a
23 woman by the name of Mirjana Barbaric from Siroki Brijeg. I did talk to
24 him, but without any result. Nothing was achieved.
25 Q. Did there come a time when Mr. Ajanovic took you to meet somebody
2 A. Yes, he did. On the 13th of October, he took me to Siroki Brijeg
3 to see Tuta in a black Mercedes. I didn't recognise him at first, but I
4 did later on, as we talked. I also met Mr. Stela there, and Tuta, in a
5 coffee bar. I was standing aside like an orphan. Mr. Tuta even treated
6 me to a drink and some food.
7 Q. Witness, let me stop you there for a moment before you proceed
8 with your story. One clarification. You said just now that, "I didn't
9 recognise him at first, but I did later on as we talked." Who are you
10 referring to?
11 A. Reuf, I meant that his name was Reuf.
12 MR. SCOTT: With the usher's assistance, could I please ask that
13 the witness be shown Exhibit 704.
14 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik.
15 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] If I'm not mistaken, I believe it's
16 that notorious list of members, so I would make the same objection that
17 Mr. Scott made to me. How is this relevant when it refers to the month of
18 November? I'm talking about that list, you remember, which we discussed
19 yesterday or the day before yesterday. So what is the relevance of this
20 document now in relation to this witness and the month that he is talking
22 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Scott, you may give us some explanations about
23 relevance of this document.
24 MR. SCOTT: Of course, Your Honour. Your Honour, it could be that
25 if the witness sees the name and identifies a name and can associate it
1 with a person he's talking about, and he can confirm to us that he saw
2 this same person closely associated with Tuta in October of 1993, which is
3 only a short time before this document was prepared, because it refers to
4 the salary list for November, so we are only talking a difference of a
5 couple of weeks, I think it's appropriate and this Chamber can then draw
6 whatever inferences it chooses in terms of Mr. Ajanovic was a member in
7 November and, according to this witness, a logical inference that the
8 Chamber can draw is that he was also a member a few weeks earlier.
9 JUDGE LIU: Well, you may proceed. But the conclusion will be
10 arrived at by the Judges themselves.
11 MR. SCOTT: Of course, Your Honour, of course.
12 JUDGE CLARK: Sorry, Mr. Scott, and with the President's
13 permission, I don't know if I made a mistake or the interpretation made a
14 mistake. I was quite surprised when the witness said that he was taken to
15 see, I thought he said Mr. Tudjman in a Mercedes. Was it Mr. Tuta or
16 Mr. Tudjman? Because I wrote down Tudjman and I noticed that the
17 interpreter has Mr. Tuta.
18 MR. SCOTT: I think I know the answer, Your Honour, but I'll ask
19 the witness, of course.
20 Q. Witness, just a moment ago, when you testified to being taken to
21 Siroki Brijeg to meet with someone, who did you meet with there?
22 MR. SCOTT: A couple of questions, Mr. President, but I'll start
23 with that one.
24 A. This man who called himself Stipo Barbaric after changing his
25 name, he came several times. He was in the Convicts Battalion a long time
1 with Tuta, and he took prisoners from Heliodrom away. He took me out. I
2 didn't know where he was taking me. He just called out my name when I was
3 in a room in Heliodrom. He took me out, put me in a Mercedes, and took me
4 to Siroki Brijeg to Tuta, the commander. All the information is there.
5 JUDGE CLARK: Thank you very much; my mistake.
6 MR. SCOTT: No. Thank you, Judge Clark.
7 Q. Now, on Exhibit 704 and in the Serbo-Croatian version, the
8 original language version --
9 MR. SCOTT: Usher, I think you may help us do this more
10 efficiently. If I can direct you to -- using the references, Mr. Usher,
11 if you could find the page in the B/C/S version that has the stamp numbers
12 00795363, in the last four digits being 5363, and show that to the
13 witness, that would assist.
14 And Mr. President, Your Honours, in the English version, if you
15 choose to follow in that, it would be on what's marked page 11, which I'll
16 qualify in one moment, but it would be on page 11. Now, what's happened
17 apparently, Your Honour, at some point, is the pages have been rearranged,
18 and I apologise for that, but -- so it won't be -- page 10 may not
19 literally be the tenth sheet in the bundle of documents, but if you find
20 numbered page 10 in the lower, right column -- and actually, I should say
21 page 11 - my mistake - page 11, numbered 11, it corresponds to that
22 document, and I apologise for the confusion.
23 Q. Now, Witness QQ, on that page, which I'll refer to as 5363, can
24 you cast your eyes down that list of names, please. I don't want you to
25 take a great deal of time to do this, but can you see on this list the
1 name of this person that you've been telling us about in the last few
3 A. I can identify a lot of names.
4 Q. All right. Let me focus your attention, please, for now. This
5 man that you've been telling us about, Mr. Ajanovic, do you see his name
6 on this list? And if so, can you indicate by number, perhaps, what number
7 that is.
8 A. He's not here. It's not here on this page, either Barbaric or
9 Ajanovic. I can't find it.
10 MR. SCOTT: All right. Mr. President, I don't want to belabour
11 this. I just want to, with the usher's assistance, make sure we're on the
12 same page. It's 5363.
13 Very well. Mr. President, because of the time constraints and
14 otherwise, I won't pursue it further.
15 Q. Now, you've told us that this man took you to Siroki Brijeg. Tell
16 us what happened after you got to Siroki Brijeg, in this regard.
17 A. Sorry, I found it. It's a photocopy. 44. Captain, it says.
18 Number 44, I'm sorry. I apologise.
19 Q. Does both the first and last name indicated on this list
20 correspond to the man you knew by this name, the same man who took you to
21 Siroki Brijeg?
22 A. Precisely. And I'm sure, 1.000 percent, not 100 percent.
23 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik.
24 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] With your leave, Your Honours, could
25 we put it on the ELMO so that we can see what number 44 is?
1 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
2 MR. SCOTT: Of course. Of course.
3 Q. All right, Witness. Thank you for that.
4 Can you go forward, please, and listen to my question. After you
5 were taken to meet Tuta in Siroki Brijeg, what happened? What did you
6 talk about? What happened?
7 A. Tuta recognised me, and I take my hat off to him. I can thank
8 this man for being alive today. He bought me a beer and some food, and he
9 told this Barbaric to take me to the hotel and put me in a room there.
10 Q. Can you assist the Chamber, please, if you know, by indicating how
11 it was, as far as you know, that Mr. -- the situation by which Mr. Tuta
12 would have recognised you?
13 A. Well, we know each other from Croatia. I also know Tuta from
14 Stuttgart. I know him through Croatian battlefields when I was leaving
15 Croatia. The HOS and the Croatian army was on my back, and I had to
16 leave. I couldn't join. I wanted to join the Croatian army because my
17 first circle was in -- sorry, the first bread I earned was in Croatia. I
18 wanted this certificate, which I mentioned yesterday. I went to Bosnia
19 first, then to France to some friends, and then I went back to Bosnia
20 where I was arrested. I don't know how it all came about. Anyway, I came
21 to Tuta to report.
22 Q. All right.
23 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, my apologies. I'm just trying to
24 adjust the outline according to what the witness is telling us, so if I
25 could have just a moment.
1 Q. All right. You said something, I think a few moments ago, that as
2 a result of this exchange with Tuta, you were then placed in a hotel in
3 Siroki Brijeg. Is that correct?
4 A. Yes. Yes, it was the Park Hotel, which was more than half of
5 which was destroyed.
6 Q. And how long did you remain at that location, approximately?
7 A. I spent over 100 days there, 120-something days. We were carrying
8 out works, going to all kinds of places. There were several convicts.
9 And when we were investigating, this prisoner who was together with me,
10 and I, we were released together. But I will tell you more about it as
11 you continue to question me.
12 Q. All right. Just now, the person you said, the prisoner who was
13 with you, this is the man you identified earlier in private session. Is
14 that correct, without saying his name?
15 A. All right.
16 Q. Now, during this time, were you required to perform any sort of
17 labour or work on projects or properties in the area surrounding Siroki
19 A. Yes, I worked everywhere. I'm sorry I have to say this. I was at
20 Tuta's villa. You gave me a picture, and I recognised it among five
21 pictures. There was a swimming pool and a villa. We did repair jobs.
22 They took us to all kinds of places. Tuta didn't know about this. They
23 later -- he later reprimanded those people for taking us there. They were
24 crude and drunken. I didn't want to say too much because, at one point, I
25 had lost control.
1 Q. How many days, approximately, did you work at this location
2 that -- I want to use your words. The place you described just now as
3 Tuta's villa; how many days or times did you work at that location?
4 A. For about ten days; I'm not sure. After so many years, you could
5 forget your own child's name.
6 Q. Can I ask you, please --
7 A. I lost a lot of family.
8 MR. SCOTT: Can I ask the usher, please, to provide the witness
9 with Exhibits 25.3, 25.5, and 25.6, which could be placed on the ELMO.
10 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik.
11 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm sorry that I'm on
12 my feet so often yesterday [as interpreted], but it's for the sake of the
13 record. I have the feeling -- and the same thing often happens in our
14 courtrooms and in our system, when something does not come into the
15 record, we have to intervene.
16 A large portion of what the witness has said is missing. It
17 wasn't translated at all. In line 22 -- perhaps I should explain. This
18 witness is using a lot of words which you might call slang in English, and
19 we in Croatia would say that these are terms used in slang all over Bosnia
20 and all Bosnians understand them. But I understand it's a very difficult
21 job for interpreters, especially if they are not originally from Bosnia.
22 The language of this witness is full of such terms. So if the Prosecutor
23 could ask the witness to speak more slowly and stick to standard language,
24 because I see that there is a lot of misunderstanding.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I say something? I apologise.
1 That's the language I know from Croatia, and I know a lot of languages. I
2 took those terms over from Croatia. These are the terms that I'm used
3 to. That's how I was born and what I was brought up with.
4 MR. SCOTT: Well, Mr. President, I'll ask the witness to speak
5 more slowly. I'm not going to attempt to tell him which words to use,
6 what dialect or -- if someone wants to use that terminology which was used
7 a few minutes ago, I'm not going to ask him to modify his normal language
8 that he speaks in. But I will ask him again.
9 Q. Witness, please, please speak slowly and articulate your words as
10 best you can, please?
11 JUDGE LIU: And Mr. Krsnik, your objection is correctly recorded
12 in the transcript. I believe that the interpreters will check it during
13 the night.
14 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, I wasn't exactly clear. Just so I have
15 some idea, although I guess in some sense it doesn't matter, but we are
16 going to sit until when?
17 JUDGE LIU: 12.00.
18 MR. SCOTT: Thank you very much.
19 Q. All right. Now, Witness QQ, if you --
20 MR. SCOTT: Mr. Usher, if you could put 25.3 on the ELMO first.
21 Q. Witness, please listen very specifically to my questions. I'm not
22 going to engage you in any lengthy discussion about these photographs, but
23 if you look, first of all, at 25.3, do you recognise anything that's shown
24 in that photograph?
25 A. The swimming pool, the house.
1 Q. And what are those?
2 A. To my mind, it's the villa. That's what it was called. A large
3 house -- a larger-than-usual house in Bosnia is called a villa.
4 Q. And is this the same house that you were telling us about a few
5 moments ago, where you were taken to perform labour on a number of
7 A. Yes. But I didn't know to whom it belonged. I found out later
8 while I was working, landscaping, so on.
9 Q. Would you look next at 25.5, please.
10 A. That's the same thing. What am I to look at? It's the same thing
11 from a different side.
12 Q. And finally, 25.6.
13 A. The same thing all over again. I can hardly make a mistake about
14 it. I know it.
15 MR. SCOTT: Sorry, Mr. President, I'm editing. I'm looking at my
16 notes and editing down, omitting a number of questions.
17 Q. Witness QQ, can you tell us, please - only to direct your
18 attention - was there a time when you sought a new pair of shoes? If you
19 can remember anything about that, tell us about that situation.
20 A. I didn't seek a new pair of shoes. It's towards the end,
21 Mr. Prosecutor. That part is towards the end, about shoes.
22 Q. Well, I'm not asking you what -- where it is, in what order. Did
23 there come a time when you were provided or wanted to obtain a new pair of
25 A. I got everything new, a whole new set, from Mr. Tuta.
1 Q. When was that?
2 A. It was towards my release. I got a change of clothes. I fared
3 much better than anyone else. I had everything. But that was towards the
4 end, before I got out. I got a whole new set of clothes. And I wouldn't
5 like to say anything against Tuta, and I believe I haven't. I wish him
6 luck and good health.
7 Q. Let me come back --
8 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
9 Q. You seem to want to talk about that later, and I will ask you
10 questions, first.
11 MR. SCOTT: Can you hear me? My microphone seems to be on.
12 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, okay.
13 MR. SCOTT: Sorry, Mr. President.
14 THE INTERPRETER: We can hear you.
15 MR. SCOTT:
16 Q. Before, then, we come to that, Witness QQ, can you tell the
17 Chamber, please, did you ever see any senior officials from the Republic
18 of Croatia come to Siroki Brijeg?
19 A. I saw -- I know Andabak very well, and I saw Gojko Susak. He wore
20 a leather jacket. He is dead now. One shouldn't speak badly of dead
21 people. And a lot of other people. They were going around on
23 Q. How many times -- can you tell the Chamber, please, how many times
24 did you see Gojko Susak in Siroki Brijeg?
25 A. Twice. Twice, that I remember. But we were concealed a lot of
1 the time, so I saw them on two or three occasions.
2 Q. Did you see Mr. Susak touring the Siroki Brijeg area with anyone
3 in particular?
4 A. Yes, yes.
5 Q. Who?
6 A. Well, Tuta would be one of those, a number of officials. He came
7 specifically to ask a prisoner, Rudi, to leave because he used to be a
8 pilot in the JNA, so that that Rudi left with him or somebody else. I
9 don't know. I never saw him again. And later on, I learned that that was
11 Q. Rudi left with who?
12 A. I learned that he left with Susak. He wasn't in the camp any
14 Q. All right. Now, did there come a time, again, when the topic of
15 your being released came up in discussions in Siroki Brijeg?
16 A. Yes, yes. Yes.
17 Q. Please tell us about that.
18 A. Well, I sent a letter through the Red Cross, and you know what a
19 letter looks like, a certificate to a friend of mine in France who was
20 with Ante Roso. I forget to mention that Ante Roso was there, too. And
21 he interceded on my behalf. I wrote to him where I was being kept, and he
22 interceded, so that I spent a month with him after I came out of the
23 camp. He interceded with Tudjman and Susak to keep me alive, not to have
24 me killed and to let me go.
25 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, can we go to private session for a
1 moment, please?
2 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we'll go to the private session.
3 [Private session]
13 Pages 6302-6308 – redacted – private session
12 [Open session]
13 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Seric?
14 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, as we had agreed, I
15 should start the cross-examination of this witness, but right at the very
16 beginning, I have a big sets of questions, they all concern one and the
17 same matter, we should have to go into private session and then we will
18 have to have a break. So I think we shall be happy to accept your
19 suggestion and leave it for Monday morning.
20 And meanwhile, I'm sorry to take over your role, far be it from
21 me, but really this witness should not be communicating with anyone until
22 we undertake our cross-examination. Thank you.
23 JUDGE LIU: Well, this is what I'm going to say.
24 Witness, I have to give you a piece of advice, as I did with all
25 other witnesses before this Tribunal. Please do not speak to anybody
1 about your evidence until your testimony has been completed, and also do
2 not let anybody speak to you about it.
3 Mr. Scott, this Trial Chamber would grant you leave to take a
4 statement on the alleged threat the witness claimed before he came here to
5 give evidence, with the presence of the representative from the
6 Registrar. Your interview with this witness should only be limited to
7 this very issue, nothing else.
8 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. President.
9 JUDGE LIU: Having said that, we will adjourn until Monday
10 morning, 9.30.
11 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
12 11.56 a.m., to be reconvened on Monday, the 26th day
13 of November, 2001, at 9.30 a.m.