1 Thursday, 06 December 2001
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.32 p.m.
5 JUDGE LIU: Call the case, please, Madam Registrar.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case number
7 IT-98-34-T, the Prosecutor versus Naletilic and Martinovic.
8 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Before we have the witness, there is a
9 decision we would like to announce.
10 At the end of the trial session yesterday, the Defence counsel for
11 Mr. Naletilic and Mr. Martinovic jointly requested that OTP witness
12 testimony of Mr. Marko Prelec, who is scheduled to testify today, December
13 6, is postponed until after Christmas recess. This morning, the Chamber
14 has received the written joint objections of the Defence. The Defence
15 argues that they have not had sufficient time to study and examine the
16 transcript that shall be submitted to the Chamber with the witness.
17 As the Defence counsel themselves stated in their written
18 objections, the witness is only called to lay a foundation for the
19 introduction of the transcripts of taped meetings from the Office of the
20 President of the Republic of Croatia.
21 That witness has already testified before this Chamber in this
22 case, with regard to the introduction of other Prosecution exhibits. His
23 testimony on 25 and 26 October, 2001, clearly shows that Mr. Prelec is a
24 witness who can and will only testify as to the way he has selected and
25 obtained documents for the Prosecutor's Office and how those documents
1 were processed within the Prosecutor's Office.
2 The Trial Chamber finds, therefore, that the witness is not in a
3 position to testify with regard to the substance of the specific contents
4 of the transcripts.
5 Therefore, the Defence counsel is not prejudiced in any way by
6 hearing the testimony of Mr. Prelec today. In particular, the Defence
7 will be granted due time to file their written response to the application
8 of the Prosecution to have the presidential transcripts admitted into
9 evidence. This has been the practice before this Trial Chamber throughout
10 the case and it will apply also with regard to the collection of the
11 presidential transcripts.
12 For these reasons, the Trial Chamber rejects the objections of the
13 Defence counsel. The Prosecution may call their witness as scheduled. It
14 is so decided.
15 Yes, Mr. Par?
16 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honour. It is not
17 related to this issue, but I have one procedural matter to address, and of
18 course it is nothing to do with this ruling. We have understood this
20 JUDGE LIU: Yes, you may.
21 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Your Honours, about ten days ago, when
22 Witnesses OO and QQ were deposed, I think that there were two situations
23 that were not completely cleared up. During the evidence of Witness OO,
24 it was said that he would write -- that he would give a written statement
25 about the wooden rifle and the museum in which it is now located. We have
1 so far not been informed on whether the witness has indeed submitted this
2 written statement, whether it has been submitted to the Court, and whether
3 the Defence will be given access to it. So this is the first issue that
4 has not been fully clarified for the Defence.
5 And the second situation was with the Witness QQ, who asserted
6 that certain pressures were exerted upon him and, again, it was agreed
7 that he would put it down in writing for the Trial Chamber. We do not
8 know whether this has been done and whether we, as the Defence, will have
9 an opportunity to review this statement.
10 We would therefore like the Trial Chamber to give us their
11 position on these two issues.
12 In relation to that, we would like to point out that our clients
13 have serious objections to parts of the evidence given by these two
14 witnesses, because in part of their testimony, they were surprise
15 witnesses, giving evidence that has never surfaced before. One of them
16 was -- one had to do with a member of the ABiH, and the other one was
17 contact with a prison inmate. This raises certain concerns to the Defence
18 and we therefore would like to see what the -- what the position of the
19 Trial Chamber is in regards of these witnesses, OO and QQ. It is
20 important for us at this stage of the proceedings because we need to know
21 whether, in our own case, we need to look to bring some new witnesses that
22 would be able to counter what these witnesses have said, and we should be
23 able to know this at this time because we are in the process of preparing
24 our pre-defence conference. So this would be an important point for us to
25 have resolved as soon as possible. It does not have to be obviously right
1 now but it was time for us to bring it up now. Thank you.
2 JUDGE LIU: Well, as for the two statements from Witness OO and QQ, this
3 Trial Chamber has made an oral order to the Prosecutor that asks for those
4 statements and also asks for the wooden rifles. We are expecting some
5 response from the side of the Prosecution about those issues.
6 As for the surprise witness, in this case, we also need the
7 explanation from the side of the Prosecution.
8 Mr. Scott.
9 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, as to the statements of OO and QQ, and
10 the wooden rifles, the wooden rifle situation, I'm happy to report,
11 perhaps coincidentally or what have you, we anticipate providing those
12 materials today, sometime in the course of today's session. So that
13 should be done. We weren't going to start today doing that, but sometime
14 between now and 7.00 we would hope to present that material to the Chamber
15 and to the Defence.
16 As to the surprise witness that, I have to admit, off the top of
17 my head, I'm not sure what's being referenced there. Mr. President, if
18 you or Defence can assist me, I'm not sure what that's about.
19 JUDGE LIU: Well, we are not going to discuss about this matter in
20 this courtroom. I hope that both parties could meet after today's sitting
21 to clarify this issue and report to this Trial Chamber.
22 MR. SCOTT: Yes, Your Honour, thank you.
23 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Of course, Your Honour. Thank you.
24 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Meek.
25 MR. MEEK: Mr. President, Your Honours, good afternoon. Yesterday
1 when the Trial Chamber decided to take under advisement the Defence motion
2 which has been ruled on today, and we understand that ruling and we
3 obviously will abide by that ruling, it was asked by the Trial Chamber if
4 Witness XX would be available to testify today, and I believe my learned
5 colleague Mr. Bos, particularly, had indicated yes, he would be available
6 to testify today.
7 So just as a matter of curiosity, since Mr. Prelec is an OTP
8 witness, will he be bringing -- will he be testifying tomorrow and XX
9 today? That's my only question.
10 JUDGE LIU: Well, we believe that the ruling we made just now is
11 quite clear, that is, the Prosecution may call their witnesses as
13 Mr. Scott, do you want to add something?
14 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, in consultation with Mr. Bos, who will
15 be handling that next -- not Mr. Prelec, but the next witness, in fact,
16 we're largely neutral but, in fact, it may be just as well to take
17 Mr. Bos's witness next because that will then, of course, be -- give us
18 greater assurance that he will finish before the end of the week and can
19 return home.
20 If we took -- of course, if we took Mr. Prelec today and depending
21 on developments, it could be that the next witness would not finish by
22 1.00 tomorrow and we would have the unfortunate situation where the
23 witness would have to stay over the weekend, so it may be the way things
24 have evolved in the course of the week that it's just as well, and Mr. Bos
25 says -- tells me he is prepared, with my thanks, that we go ahead and
1 take the next witness after this, and then take Mr. Prelec following
2 that. And since, indeed, he is here in The Hague, we have a bit more
3 flexibility, if that's acceptable to the Chamber.
4 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. We will hear the witness
5 according to the order you suggested.
6 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. President.
7 Usher, would you please bring the witness.
8 [The witness entered court]
9 JUDGE LIU: Good afternoon, Witness. Can you hear me?
10 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]
11 JUDGE LIU: Please sit down. Please remember that you are still
12 under the solemn declaration.
13 WITNESS: WITNESS WW [Resumed]
14 [Witness answered through interpreter]
15 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Seric.
16 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. President, good
17 afternoon, Your Honours.
18 Mr. President, I do not have many questions, but because of the
19 nature of the questions that I'm going to ask now, I'm going to request a
20 private session, please.
21 JUDGE LIU: We'll go to the private session, please.
22 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, Mr. President, closed
24 JUDGE LIU: Closed session, please.
25 [Closed session]
13 Page 7083 – redacted – closed session
13 Page 7084 – redacted – closed session
1 [Open session]
2 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Meek, cross-examination?
3 MR. MEEK: Yes, Mr. President, Your Honours, I was not quick
4 enough. I would have asked you to stay in closed session for -- I only
5 have a few questions, but I think it's appropriate.
6 JUDGE LIU: We'll go back to the closed session.
7 [Closed session]
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
13 Page 7087 – redacted – closed session
1 [Open session]
2 Re-examined by Mr. Scott:
3 Q. Good afternoon.
4 A. Good afternoon.
5 Q. Witness, I'm going to ask you just a very few questions. As there
6 was considerable examination about the identification of the accused Vinko
7 Martinovic, or the cross-examination, so let me ask you a few questions
8 about that. The men who came to your apartment first on the 9th of May
9 and then again on the 13th of June, did you know any of those four men
10 just from living in Mostar or having lived there for some time, did you
11 know them or know of them before seeing them on those two days?
12 THE INTERPRETER: We're sorry, we cannot hear the witness.
13 JUDGE LIU: Well --
14 MR. SCOTT: Witness, for some reason we're not getting , I think,
15 the broadcast.
16 THE INTERPRETER: Mr. Scott, your microphone is not on either.
17 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Scott, can you try again?
18 MR. SCOTT: Yes, of course. I see Mr. Seric.
19 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Seric.
20 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I heard the question,
21 so do you want the Prosecutor to ask his question again and then allow me
22 to object to it or to object to it straight away, because the question is
23 in the transcript?
24 Well, I will make my objection, and then you can see from the
25 transcript what it is about, namely, in that examination, the witness
1 answered this question. So the witness, as it was repeated, is leading
2 because both in direct and in cross-examination, the witness said that she
3 saw Vinko Martinovic for the first time there and that she found out about
4 him at the Heliodrom and that she had heard his last name before.
5 So with this question, the Prosecutor is suggesting the answer to
6 the witness.
7 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Scott, would you please skip this question.
8 MR. SCOTT: Well, Your Honour, I was trying to approach it in an
9 orderly way, but I'll ask then if the usher could assist me by showing the
10 B/C/S version of the witness's statement to the OTP on the 26th of
11 September, 1998 in front of the witness, please.
12 Q. Witness, I put before you what we call a B/C/S version of the
13 interview statement which you gave to the Office of the Prosecutor's
14 representatives on the - I will double-check the date one more time - 26th
15 of September, 1998. Now, directing your attention to the top of the page
16 that's been marked. I don't want you to read that out loud but would you
17 just read -- there's -- would you just read the top several lines,
18 paragraph of that document, and then I will just have a question for you.
19 Now let me just -- without looking -- have you had a chance to
20 look at that, Witness WW? Witness, have you had a chance to look at it?
21 A. Yes, yes, yes.
22 Q. Now, without looking back at the statement --
23 THE INTERPRETER: Your microphone, Mr. Scott.
24 MR. SCOTT:
25 Q. Now, without looking further back at the statement, does it
1 refresh your recollection that you had told the OTP in September of 1998
2 that you recognise these four men because they had all lived in the Mostar
3 area before this?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And to follow up on that question, did you know anything, for
6 instance, that Mr. Martinovic had done while he was employed or engaged in
7 business before the war?
8 A. From what I heard, Mr. Martinovic drove a taxi before the war.
9 Q. And, Witness, you said yesterday in your testimony --
10 MR. SCOTT: And it was in yesterday's transcript, it would have
11 been page 3, Your Honour, but since the page numbers have changed since
12 yesterday, I can't refer back, but -- my apology, my apology, page 68,
13 line 21 yesterday.
14 Q. Witness, you said, "I know this Vinko Martinovic here." Now,
15 based on what you saw on the 9th of May, 1993, and the 13th of June, 1993,
16 Witness WW, do you believe you know, in fact, the Vinko Martinovic, Stela,
17 who evicted you from your apartment, not once but twice? Do you know who
18 that person is? I mean, had you seen him -- you saw him on those two
19 occasions, and is that what you base your testimony on, or did you see him
20 any time after that?
21 A. Believe me, I would recognise Mr. Stela always and everywhere
22 after all that, but because on both occasions I was the first to be
23 evicted, that is on the 9th of May, and sent to the Heliodrom, and on the
24 13th of June, when I was sent to the other bank, I never saw him. That
25 is, as of that date, the 13th of June, until now, I never saw him again,
1 but Mr. Stela --
2 Q. I'm sorry, go ahead.
3 A. But on both occasions, Mr. Stela was at my place. I mean, on both
4 -- both times, he -- he did that. He did it.
5 Q. All right. Thank you very much, witness. Just to clarify, you
6 had not seen him since that time. Now, one final question. About the
7 door -- there was also extensive questioning about where you were at the
8 door of your flat in relationship to the door of the building that you
9 were living in --
10 MR. SCOTT: It may assist -- sorry, Mr. President, I'm just
11 thinking the easiest way to do this. I was considering having the witness
12 do a sketch, but with your permission, I'll try to ask it first, if it
13 will work this way.
14 Q. Is it correct, ma'am, that the door into the building, that is
15 from the outside into your building itself, was immediately adjacent to
16 the door into your flat?
17 A. The front door, that is the door into the building, to the
18 staircase, there is about a metre or perhaps two, and then you climb a
19 couple of steps, and there is my door. Perhaps five. I just can't
20 remember. I mean, it's just right there. It's really very close by.
21 Q. Standing at the door of your flat, could you also see the door
22 into the building?
23 A. Yes, yes, directly.
24 MR. SCOTT: Once again, thank you, Witness. I have no further
1 JUDGE LIU: Any questions from judges? Judge Clark?
2 Questioned by the Court:
3 JUDGE CLARK: Madam Witness, can I ask you a few questions? When
4 the men came to your flat on the evening of the 9th of May -- can you hear
6 A. In the morning.
7 JUDGE CLARK: On the 9th of May, and also on the 13th of June, you
8 described how you were in the first flat, so you were the first to be
9 pushed out. Were you mistreated or manhandled in any way?
10 A. Well, to begin with, they came in the morning, not in the
11 evening. Secondly, when I came out, you know, like any woman, it was the
12 beginning of my menopause, and when they came, my period started, so that
13 I went back into the room, got some Tampax, put them in my handbag and
14 because -- and this bag -- then my bag then looked rather small, and so
15 when I came out in front -- when I came out and Mr. Stela was standing in
16 front of the building, I don't know what he thought that I had in the bag,
17 and he started for me to take the bag, and I, knowing that I had something
18 in my handbag that nobody -- no man should see, I tried -- I clutched at
19 this handbag, and at that time he started pushing me, trying to -- trying
20 to prise my hands over and get this handbag, and then he pushed me and
21 this handbag fell, and he kicked me. He kicked me so -- kicked me with
22 his boot so that I felt it, and I was left speechless with a tremendous
23 pain in my spine, but it is all over now. I mean, it was just a fleeting
24 moment when that happened to me. I don't know. I don't know what he
25 thought I had in this handbag. And believe me, I had nothing else except
1 that thing which I personally needed. So I had to go without it. I went
2 to the Heliodrom without anything, and I was in terrible trouble at the
3 Heliodrom because they gave me nothing. And you know, a woman who has
4 something like that ...
5 JUDGE CLARK: Must have been ghastly for you. Another question I
6 wanted to ask is that yesterday, I thought - and I wondered was it my
7 imagination - I thought, and then I started to write the word and it
8 didn't come back, that you mentioned something about a journalist being
9 mistreated. Did you say that or was it my imagination?
10 A. Yes. I did say that. I did. The journalist -- the gentleman who
11 was with that gentleman, he grabbed him abruptly, but this gentleman here
12 interceded so that he wasn't mishandled in any way, except he just grabbed
13 him like this, but the gentleman here intervened and he stayed there. He
14 stayed there in front of the building.
15 JUDGE CLARK: Did this journalist live in your building?
16 A. Yes, yes, he did.
17 JUDGE CLARK: I wonder - it's an unusual request - can I go into,
18 I don't know whether it's closed or private session. I want to mention
19 two names. I'm not familiar with the procedure.
20 MR. SCOTT: Certainly fine with the Prosecution, Your Honour.
21 MR. MEEK: No objection whatsoever, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE CLARK: My problem is I don't know whether it's closed
23 session or private session. I don't want names to be revealed. What do I
24 ask for? Private session?
25 MR. SCOTT: I think in this courtroom, because it's a rather
1 unique situation, it's essentially the same as being in closed session
2 because the -- it's closed session, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE LIU: Let's go to closed session anyway.
4 [Closed session]
16 [Open session]
17 JUDGE CLARK: Thank you. You stated that you knew Mr. Martinovic
18 before the war, or you knew of him, and you said that he was a taxi
19 driver. Yesterday when you were giving your evidence, you mentioned a
20 coffee bar or a cafe bar which was associated with the Martinovic family.
21 Now, my question is: Did Mr. Martinovic, Mr. Vinko Martinovic, own a
22 coffee bar before the war?
23 A. I don't know, believe me, but I know that the owner of that coffee
24 bar which Mr. Martinovic used, that its original owner was a Mr. Garo
25 Kovacevic. I know that because I would go past that coffee bar every day
1 and he was a Serb, and I know that he was the owner of that coffee bar.
2 Not only I, everybody in Mostar knew that he owned it because that coffee
3 bar was in one of the elite part of the town. It was near the Velez
4 stadium and there were new buildings, and across the street there was a
5 new building, and that coffee bar was owned by Garo Kovacevic and later it
6 was used by Stela.
7 JUDGE CLARK: Do you know who appears to exercise ownership over
8 that coffee bar at the moment?
9 A. No, no, believe me, I don't because I just don't go there
10 anymore. I can't go there anymore.
11 JUDGE CLARK: When we hear people talking about Vinko Martinovic
12 or Stela's coffee bar, it's not one that he owns, it's one that he
13 frequents; is that what you're talking about?
14 A. No. Mr. Martinovic, since Mr. Kovacevic, who was a Serb, left the
15 town, Mr. Martinovic took over that coffee bar and worked in it, at the
16 coffee bar, worked regularly, but who is there now, I do not know, because
17 I haven't lived in that area for the last nine years.
18 JUDGE CLARK: Thank you.
19 The other thing I wanted to ask you is that you mentioned a few
20 minutes ago that you were still on -- maybe we should be in closed session
22 JUDGE LIU: We'll go to the closed session, please.
23 [Closed session]
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
17 [Open session]
18 JUDGE LIU: Judge Diarra.
19 JUDGE DIARRA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
20 Questioned by the Court:
21 Witness WW, I'd like to ask you, when the police turned up in
22 front of your apartment in the morning, did -- they check your identity
23 documents. Then that policeman said, "I'm sorry, I have to kick you out,
24 otherwise they will kill me." And your husband, who I imagine is very
25 brave, told him not to worry. He didn't ask him, "Who will kill you?"
1 A. Believe me, when this guy, and he was quite a young lad, when he
2 entered my flat, I could see that he was upset, too, and because my
3 husband and I were alone in the flat and he had no problem with us.
4 He simply -- I suppose he was also scared of it that something
5 could happen and that is when he said, "You have to go out, otherwise
6 they'll kill me." So obviously he was afraid from somebody else because
7 he was young, he was really young, and I suppose he didn't have very much
8 experience. What he told me was, "They collected me from the Avenija and
9 they put me in a uniform and ordered me to do this," and that is when my
10 husband told him, "Don't worry, son, we shall come out without a problem,
11 because on the 9th of May we've already had that kind of experience," and
12 on the 13th of May - how to put it mildly - it was natural for me to come
13 out without causing any trouble to those people because I think that this
14 young man wasn't really quite ready for that kind of task, that kind of
15 job, but there you are.
16 JUDGE DIARRA: [Interpretation] And you were shown the street --
17 when you were shown the plan to identify the street, you said that the
18 names of the streets have changed, that you were not able to find your way
19 around the map. How have these names of the streets changed, and have the
20 street names been now changed back again to their old ones? Do you hope
21 once you return to your apartment that that street will regain its old
22 name? How did the street names change?
23 A. Well, you know, the gentlemen changed the street names and called
24 them after their important historical figures. The street which was
25 called Kalimova and which all of us Mostarans know, including Mr. Stela,
1 or Petra Drapsina, now it's called Queen Katarina, and other streets, but
2 these are all the names which this, the current authority, gave those
3 streets. I suppose that even if I go back to my old apartment, I don't
4 think they will change the street name back to its old name again. I
5 think it will remain as it is called now.
6 JUDGE DIARRA: [Interpretation] Thank you, madam. And I'd like to
7 congratulate you on the -- on your calm and on the serenity with which you
8 answered all our questions despite the drama, in spite of what you
9 experienced. Thank you very much.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
11 JUDGE LIU: Any questions as a result of the Judge's questions?
12 Mr. Scott.
13 MR. SCOTT: No, Your Honour, thank you.
14 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Seric.
15 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I do, Mr. President. A few
17 Further cross-examination by Mr. Seric:
18 Q. Madam, what you have answered to Her Honour Judge Clark that
19 Vinko Martinovic tried to get your handbag, to snatch your handbag from
20 you and he kicked you in the back, can you explain why is it that you
21 never once mentioned it before in none of your statements?
22 A. Sir, counsel, believe me, these are horrible moments and I,
23 frankly speaking, tried to forget it.
24 Q. When you said that this Martinovic's soldier started towards your
25 neighbour to beat him or hit him or something and that Vinko Martinovic
1 then intervened, do you mean that he protected him?
2 A. Well, when this gentleman came out of the door, really, he was
3 very upset and he started for him and grabbed him. But this gentleman,
4 yes, he really said, "Leave him alone." He did say that.
5 Q. You mean Mr. Martinovic?
6 A. Yes, Mr. Martinovic. He really said that.
7 Q. Yesterday - perhaps there was a misunderstanding and perhaps the
8 transcript is not correct - but yesterday, speaking about this coffee bar
9 at the old Velez stadium, that it was called Kovacevic's, but the
10 transcript never says, and that is I did not understand you saying that
11 Mr. Martinovic was the owner of that coffee bar ever.
12 A. Sir, on the 16th of May, when I returned from the Heliodrom - and
13 Mr. Stela knows that - when I returned, Mr. Stela was there. I mean,
14 everybody in the town, everybody said that Mr. Stela was in
15 Mr. Kovacevic's coffee bar, and every day when I started working, because
16 I --
17 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President --
18 A. After I had returned to work, I kept -- he was there all the
19 time. I saw him there all the time.
20 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Scott?
21 MR. SCOTT: Not so much an objection, but if I might be allowed, I
22 think what's a bit confusing about the evidence about the coffee bar is
23 the word "ownership," because I think what the -- well, I don't know. I
24 think that is the issue. I think she just says -- she does not say that
25 Mr. Stela owned the coffee bar, and that's why she keeps going back to
1 this Serb, but whether he was operating or had taken control -- I think
2 it's the word "ownership," Your Honour, that's causing the confusion,
3 that's all.
4 JUDGE LIU: Let Mr. Seric continue his question about this coffee
6 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. President.
7 Q. I will say to you, Vinko Martinovic says that he never owned - and
8 let me finish - that he never owned or that he was never in that coffee
9 bar, that he never ran it, that he never took it over, and if you
10 remember, throughout that time, it was Stojicic, called Buli, who ran this
11 coffee bar after Kovacevic all the time that he had rented it. What would
12 you say to this?
13 A. Sir, it does not mean anything to me because I do not know
14 Mr. Stojicic. Believe me, I do not know him. But Mr. Stela -- and it's
15 not only me, but in Mostar, in the city of Mostar, it is common knowledge
16 that Mr. Stela entered Mr. Kovacevic's coffee bar. Who ran it, who was
17 the owner, I really don't know, but Mr. Stela, of course, can say what he
18 knows, but I'm telling you what I know.
19 Q. The name Mali Raj, Little Paradise, that was the name of the
20 coffee bar; does it ring a bell?
21 A. No, it doesn't.
22 Q. Well, that is the name of the coffee bar that the Martinovic
23 family owns. So what you are telling me is it is simply the grapevine, it
24 is the gossip which reached your ears; this is not what you're claiming?
25 A. I am saying that I saw Mr. Stela - Mr. Stela - in front of the
1 coffee bar, and that was almost on a daily basis, every day, as I would
2 come -- return from work. And everybody in the town -- and I do not know
3 whether it is his property or not, and as far as I'm concerned, it does
4 not really matter. But I do know that throughout this time, most Mostar
5 talked about Mr. Stela taking over Mr. Kovacevic's coffee bar after he
7 Q. Did you ever see Mr. Vinko Martinovic run this coffee bar, that he
8 collected the bills, that he had some people under him who ran -- who
9 worked in that coffee bar or anything?
10 A. I really don't know about that. I really don't know that.
11 Q. Now, Her Honour Judge Diarra mentioned -- raised the issue of the
12 street. Do you know if the streets on the east -- in the east part of the
13 Mostar changed their names or did they keep their old names?
14 A. As far as I know -- believe me, as far as I know, the part of the
15 city in which I move still has the old names, and there is -- this is yet
16 another example, and a very little one [redacted]
23 Q. Are you then claiming that on the -- in East Mostar, not one
24 street changed its name?
25 A. Sir, I cannot really affirm that, because I do not move throughout
1 that eastern part. I move in that part where I live and work, and that
2 part -- in that part, all the streets have kept their old names.
3 Q. Do you know that Petar Drapsina was a communist revolutionary, one
4 of the leaders of the communist movement?
5 A. Well, I suppose so, seeing that the street was named after him.
6 Q. And are you surprised that the names of the streets were changed
7 in those cases where streets were named after communist leaders?
8 A. Well, I wouldn't know. I don't know. I don't think so, but I
9 don't know.
10 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
11 JUDGE LIU: Judge Clark?
12 Questioned by the Court:
13 JUDGE CLARK: Just arising out of those responses, we've heard a
14 lot during this case about a coffee bar, and I'm at sea. The name of this
15 coffee bar, Mr. Kovacevic's coffee bar, did it have a name on the front of
16 it, besides the owner's name?
17 A. Garo, Garo Kovacevic. What the coffee bar was called, I don't
18 know. I just know where it is. But I don't know really, because I never
19 frequented coffee bars.
20 JUDGE CLARK: Can you tell me the old address - I don't know if
21 the name has been changed - but the street on which this coffee bar was to
22 be found?
23 A. Don't ask me about the street itself, but the neighbourhood is
24 called Strelcevina. Just like my neighbourhood was called Dum, that
25 neighbourhood was called Strelcevina.
1 JUDGE CLARK: I'll have to look at the map. Thank you very much.
2 JUDGE LIU: Thank you, Witness, for helping us, for giving your
3 evidence. We all wish you good luck. The usher will show you out of the
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
6 [The witness withdrew]
7 JUDGE LIU: At this stage, are there any documents to tender?
8 Yes, Mr. Scott?
9 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, only the marked version of P11.18,
10 whatever that next dash is.
11 THE REGISTRAR: 7.
12 MR. SCOTT: 7, yes, P11.18/7. Thank you very much.
13 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Mr. Seric?
14 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] No objections, and I would also like
15 to tender the same exhibit.
16 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. This map is admitted into evidence. I
17 believe we should give it a double number on it.
18 Yes, Mr. Meek?
19 MR. MEEK: Mr. Naletilic has no objection, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. Thank you.
21 Well, Mr. Scott, how about your next witness?
22 MR. SCOTT: Yes, Your Honour, and again, so we will take the next
23 witness -- next Bosniak witness, and Mr. Bos will be handling the witness.
24 JUDGE LIU: We have five minutes to break. Mr. Bos, will you
25 please brief us on the relevance of the testimony of that witness to the
1 indictment, as well as whether there is any protective measures you will
2 be requesting?
3 MR. BOS: Yes, Your Honour, I can do that. This witness has
4 requested similar protective measures as the previous witness, so face and
5 voice distortion. Well, it's fortunately all set up so I don't think
6 that's too much of a difficulty.
7 And the evidence of this witness is relevant to the following
8 paragraphs in the indictment: the background, paragraphs 10 and 11;
9 general allegations, paragraphs 18, 19, 20 and 21; count 1, paragraphs 26,
10 27, 28, 30, 32, and 34(a) and (b); counts 2 to 5, paragraphs 35 through
11 38, and paragraph 40; counts 9 to 12, paragraphs 45, 49 and 50; and counts
12 13 to 17, paragraphs 51 and 52.
13 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Any objections to the protective
15 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours, thank you.
16 MR. MEEK: None, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. So your request is granted. Did
18 you prepare a piece of paper?
19 MR. BOS: Yes, I have it right here.
20 JUDGE LIU: I see. What's the pseudonym for this witness?
21 MR. BOS: The pseudonym will be Witness XX. So I'll hand over the
22 sheet now to the registry.
23 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. We will resume at 10 past 4.00.
24 --- Recess taken at 3.36 p.m.
25 --- On resuming at 4.17 p.m.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 JUDGE LIU: Yes, could we have the next witness, please.
2 MR. BOS: Yes, Your Honour. Can you bring in the witness.
3 [The witness entered court]
4 JUDGE LIU: Good afternoon, witness.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
6 JUDGE LIU: Would you please make the solemn declaration in
7 accordance with the paper the usher is going to show you.
8 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the
9 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
10 WITNESS: WITNESS XX
11 [Witness answered through interpreter]
12 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Would you please sit down.
13 Yes, Mr. Bos.
14 MR. BOS: Thank you, Your Honour.
15 Examined by Mr. Bos:
16 Q. Good afternoon, Witness. Can you hear me?
17 A. Good afternoon. I can hear you well.
18 Q. Witness, the Trial Chamber has granted the protective measures
19 that you have requested, which means that your image will be distorted and
20 also your voice will be distorted and you will be referred to by a
21 pseudonym. The usher now will show you a piece of paper which has your
22 name on it and your pseudonym, and if you will just look at it and confirm
23 that it is your name.
24 A. Yes, this is my name.
25 Q. As you will see on the sheet of paper, you will be referred to as
1 Witness XX. Do you understand that?
2 A. Yes.
3 MR. BOS: Now, Your Honours, for the first part of my examination,
4 I would like to go into private session.
5 JUDGE LIU: We will go to the private session, please.
6 [Private session]
13 Page 7109 – redacted – private session
22 [Open session]
23 MR. BOS:
24 Q. Witness, what happened on the 9th of May, 1993? Where were you
25 and what happened on that day?
1 A. On the 9th of May, I was at home with my family, with my wife and
2 my daughter, and early in the morning, we were awakened by intense
3 explosions and shooting. Shortly after that, we heard on the radio a
4 statement by Jadranko Topic, called Cela, who stated that there was a
5 coordinated operation of the HVO underway which will be over soon and that
6 all the Bosniaks should hoist a white cloth as a sign of surrender.
7 Q. Witness, you stated that you were at home. Was your house at that
8 time in West or East Mostar?
9 A. In the west side of Mostar.
10 Q. Now, did this attack by the HVO, did this come as a surprise to
12 A. Well, let me tell you, for the period of time, one could feel that
13 something could happen, but I really did not expect something of --
14 anything of that proportion. Otherwise, I would not have been there. I
15 would have taken my family, and also I would have gone myself somewhere,
16 where it was safer.
17 Q. Now, you've testified that a man named Jadranko Topic was on the
18 radio asking the Bosnians to actually put white cloths outside of the
19 window. First of all, who is Jadranko Topic?
20 A. Well, Jadranko Topic at that time was a high official in the HDZ.
21 I don't know his exact office, but one could say that he was the HDZ's
22 political figure number 1 in the town, at least as far as I knew.
23 Q. And did you follow the requests -- well, the request he made on
24 the radio to actually put a white sheet out of the windows?
25 A. Well, no. I thought that if I put out any piece of white cloth,
1 it would draw attention to me and my family. And that in that case,
2 perhaps my lot would have -- might be worse.
3 Q. Did you or any of your family members go out that day?
4 A. No. I dared not go anywhere.
5 Q. And did you find out whether any of your relatives who were also
6 living in that neighbourhood, did you find out what happened to them on
7 that day?
8 A. I didn't, at first, and we were very worried because both my wife
9 and I -- that is relatives of both my wife's and mine lived in the western
10 part of the town, and we didn't know what was going on. However, a Croat
11 friend of ours came to us and told us that my folk had started -- that
12 they were about to be detained, but that they had found shelter with
13 somebody else. However, my wife realised that some of her relatives were
14 gone, and her younger brother, too, that he was missing, and she returned
15 crying, and later on we found out that her mother and her younger brother
16 - and he was underage - had been taken to the Heliodrom.
17 Q. And do you know how long they had to stay there in the Heliodrom?
18 A. I think about a week, but after that, they dared not return to
19 their flat, and instead tried to manage with other relatives, hiding with
20 them. I'm talking about my mother-in-law and her son. My mother and
21 father were also there for a while, and they returned to their flat. That
22 is, they were hiding with their neighbours. Their neighbours helped them
23 and shielded them, and a few days later, when the situation calmed down
24 somewhat, they went back to their flat.
25 Q. Now, what did you do in the days following the 9th of May attack?
1 A. I dared not go out anywhere. I feared for my family and myself.
2 And I didn't know what was really going on. But so my family and I were
3 in the flat, fearful, waiting for somebody to come and take us. Whenever
4 we would hear some sound or something, we would panic and start dressing
5 quickly, because we thought that my daughter, my wife, might be expelled
6 and that I might be taken to prison or killed.
7 Q. And did, in this period, actually people try to get into your
9 A. Several times somebody came to the doors of my flat, but we also
10 had some good neighbours, Croats. And one of those neighbours, several
11 times, twice, I think, prevented them because he was also a member of the
12 HVO. So he would go down the stairs and tell those people to go away. On
13 one occasion, some people who were drunk or maybe under drugs who came to
14 the doors and he asked -- and they wanted to ask me if I was with the
15 civil defence and then [redacted], told them that they had
16 nothing to look there for, and that they should go away, and they did.
17 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please slow down.
18 MR. BOS:
19 Q. Witness, the interpreters have requested if you could slow down
20 your pace a little bit so they can interpret more easily, and I would
21 request if that name can be redacted from the transcript.
22 Witness, try to refrain from mentioning any names unless I
23 specifically ask you to mention names, if you could.
24 Witness, what happened on the 30th of June, 1993?
25 A. On the 30th of June, 1993, there were all around arrests or,
1 rather, all people with Muslim, that is Bosniak names, were arrested. At
2 that time, there was fierce conflict between the BH army and the HVO.
3 That was at the time when the BH army had taken Bijelo Polje and the
4 northern camp.
5 Q. Were you also arrested on that day?
6 A. Yes. We all panicked. At home, my wife and daughter were
7 crying. Like other neighbours, that is, people who were Muslims, Bosniaks
8 in that same building, I was arrested and taken to the Heliodrom.
9 Q. Could you tell the Court what happened when you arrived at the
11 A. When we arrived at the Heliodrom, some of us were put in a school
12 at the Heliodrom in a room. I'm not sure, but I think that we were about
13 50. And that same evening, two young men came, and they were very young,
14 they could have been around 20. They started to ill-treat the prisoners.
15 I do not know the names. I do not know who they are to this day.
16 One of them entered with a cocked pistol and with this pistol, he
17 circled around the room until he could find somebody, I don't know what
18 was the criterion, and then he would take that person out of the room and
19 that man would be beaten then.
20 I know that two men were beaten in the same way, that is, with a
21 pistol pointing at them, they would be picked out. The third one wasn't
22 beaten because he told them, even though he was a Muslim, he was a member
23 of the HVO, and so they told him to get back into the room, and he wasn't
24 beaten on that occasion.
25 Q. Were you picked out on that evening as well?
1 A. No, I wasn't. Although, like all the other prisoners, I was
2 really scared because the pistol would go all over all of us and I --
3 nobody could be sure who would be picked out and who -- and taken out.
4 Q. This happened on the first evening. Did this happen more often
5 after you -- while you were detained at the school?
6 A. The ill treatment went on, of course not always in the same way.
7 In the school, very often we would be woken up late in the night,
8 sometimes around 2.00 or 3.00 in the morning. We all had to run out of
9 this room, run down the passage while not being allowed to look at the
10 guards, and the guards -- he struck some of us and there was a lot of
11 noise, and at times, when some of those guards were under the influence,
12 they would then force us to sing the Croatian anthem, some Ustasa songs
13 dating back to World War II when we were in this crowd, and that is how
14 they ill-treated us.
15 I also heard that on the ground floor, that is, I was told by
16 prisoners who were on the ground floor that above their heads, and I said
17 late at night when they would be trying to sleep, that they could hear a
18 round of fire, fired above their heads.
19 Q. Witness, do you know a man by the name of --
20 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Mr. Bos.
21 MR. BOS:
22 Q. Witness, do you know a man by the name of Nenad Harmandzic?
23 A. I do or, rather, I knew him.
24 Q. Who is he and how did you know him?
25 A. May I answer? Are we in a closed session?
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 MR. BOS: We may need to go into private session for this.
2 JUDGE LIU: We will go to the private session, please.
3 [Private session]
15 [Open session]
16 MR. BOS:
17 Q. Witness XX, how long were you kept in the school building?
18 A. Well, in the school building, I think I spent about a month
19 there. After that - and again I do not know on the basis of what criteria
20 - I was transferred to the central prison. I still don't know what were
21 the criteria for this, because in the central prison, there were some
22 elderly men and there was even a boy, an underaged boy, in the same room
23 with me.
24 Q. Now, where were you put in the central prison? Can you describe
25 the room and the persons you -- also the size of the room and the persons
1 you were with in that room?
2 A. That room was about 90 metres square, 90 to 100 metres square. We
3 were about 100 in that room. The conditions were horrible. If we wanted
4 to sleep, we were packed like sardines. If one wanted to turn, everybody
5 had to do that, or if somebody wanted to go to the toilet, he would have
6 to tread on other prisoners.
7 Q. How many toilets were there for this group of 100 detainees?
8 A. There was only one lavatory, and I can say that all our social
9 life in the prison consisted of washing, cleaning, but at times, we had to
10 wash ourselves by simply pouring water from one other -- from two Coca
11 Cola bottles. We simply could not get to the faucets, to the taps, and
12 that's why there was so many diseases in the prison. I know that once the
13 whole room was vacated and all the prisoners had to be sprayed. I think
14 that on one occasion scabies started to spread, and one man was affected,
15 and he had to be isolated for a while, but then he came back.
16 Q. What did you get for food?
17 A. It was very meagre. I lost some 15 kilograms during the first
18 month or so. Of morning, we would get a slice of bread and tea, and for
19 lunch, we were served some mixture, and we most of us couldn't -- I don't
20 think we could guess what that was. I would say those were just some
21 leftovers put and mixed together.
22 Q. Now, how were you treated in the central prison?
23 A. In the central prison, it was very difficult, especially because
24 next to our room were Croat detainees, that's those who were members of
25 the HVO, but I think they were proper criminals and drug addicts because
1 it often happened, how we, the prisoners, could see them walk past us with
2 the syringes in their hand and go towards the toilets where they were
3 being given shots or taking shots, and it was those prisoners who harassed
4 us most practically. They used to take people out and whatever they still
5 had with them, that is what had not been taken from them, watches or if
6 they had still some money hidden, they would search them and take it. And
7 we were offered no assistance, no help, from people who guarded us. On
8 one occasion, I remember how they threw a blanket into the room which was
9 on fire so the whole room could go on fire, and when we tried to put that
10 fire out, they began to throw some bottles at us. But I remember that the
11 fire -- that blanket went out all by itself.
12 Q. Do you recall any of the names of these HVO prisoners who were
13 there maltreating you?
14 A. I don't, but I know that one was called Splico - or other people
15 referred to him as Splico - said he was a member of the paramilitary
16 forces or something like that. He came from Split and he was a drug
17 addict. I remember a young man, he was one of them, and why had he been
18 detained, I don't know, but his nickname was Paraga, but I cannot say
19 positively whether he ill-treated anyone. He was near those people who
20 ill-treated us, but I did not see him ill-treat anyone, whereas this young
21 man nicknamed Splico participated very actively in the ill treatment of
22 the prisoners.
23 Q. Did you witness any of the maltreatment by Splico, and what did
24 you witness?
25 A. Well, yes. I can give you one example. Once we went for lunch
1 and those Croats -- those prisoners of Croat ethnicity searched all our
2 belongings, hoping to find something valuable and appropriating it. But
3 what they did was the -- they found identity cards, or rather the papers
4 of two policemen detained there and of the then lawful police of the
5 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina. And when we came back from lunch, they
6 looked around, they tried to identify those men on the basis of the
7 photographs. They did in the case of one of them. They could not
8 recognise the other one fortunately, because he had lost too much weight,
9 and besides, some prisoners said that he had left, that he was no longer
10 there. So the one they could identify, they beat him badly, and this
11 young man that I already mentioned, who was nicknamed Splico, was very
12 active in that, and I think that on that occasion, a tooth was knocked
13 out, and he was pretty badly beaten. He was kicked and beaten with fists.
14 Q. Just one more question on these HVO prisoners. You said that they
15 were in a room adjacent to your room. What were the conditions in the
16 room that they were staying in?
17 A. Much better than ours, because they all had their own beds, they
18 had sufficient number of blankets, whereas we slept on the floor. Well,
19 some did have something to cover, some didn't. Some had some blankets,
20 some didn't. And I already told you how many of us were kept in that
21 room. I do not know how many of those Croat prisoners there were, but
22 every one of them had his own, had a bed to him, and enough room in that
24 Q. And did the guards of the Heliodrom do anything to prevent these
25 HVO prisoners of maltreating you and the other prisoners?
1 A. No, no. Absolutely nothing. They did absolutely nothing. I even
2 think that those prisoners were prodded to do it, because some other
3 colleagues imprisoned there said that they tried to defend themselves when
4 these ones were about to attack them, but they then shouted and made so
5 much noise and called to guards to -- saying that Muslims were beating
6 Croat prisoners, and then the guards entered and beat them. So they were
7 beaten rather than helped by the guards. I wasn't present on that
8 occasion. I heard that from other prisoners.
9 Q. Now, my really final question on this issue. Could you perhaps
10 describe the man you've been referring to as Splico?
11 A. Well, young. I mean he was young at that time, quite thin, about
12 185 centimetres tall. I don't think, however, I'd be able to recognise
13 him because -- now because it was a long time ago. I do not know anything
14 else about him. All I know is that that was the nickname.
15 Q. Witness, while you were at the Heliodrom, were you ever taken out
16 for labour?
17 A. Yes, a number of times.
18 Q. Which locations were you taken to when -- what did you have to do?
19 A. I was taken to different locations around town, Santiceva Street,
20 mostly along the separation lines or rather along the confrontation lines
21 between the HVO and the BH army, Santiceva Street, Bulevar, then next to
22 what used to be the department store, Hit department store, but it burnt
23 down. Then I was taken to the Buna, Laksevine, to Hodbina, that is to
24 different places.
25 Q. Could you, in general, describe the type of work you had to do in
1 these places?
2 A. Well, by and large we were made to dig trenches or make bunkers
3 for the HVO. In this way, it was trying either to hold on to the front
4 line or perhaps advance.
5 Q. Now, you've stated that you also worked at the Bulevar. How many
6 times did you work at the Bulevar?
7 A. Well, twice, at least. I am not quite sure, but I think it was
8 two or maybe even three or four times.
9 MR. BOS: Could the witness be shown Exhibit 14.5, please.
10 Q. Witness, while the -- we get this exhibit, could you tell us if
11 you remember the times that you were taken to the Bulevar; do you remember
12 who took you to the Bulevar from the Heliodrom?
13 A. Mostly, it was the unknown men, members of the HVO in camouflage
14 uniforms. They would enter the room where we were staying and pointed at
15 us and they referred to us as pieces, they said, "We want 20 pieces, 30
16 pieces." They would just look at us. They were looking to find men who
17 were physically in better shape, even though occasionally they would also
18 take either the elderly or those who were infirm.
19 Q. Do you recall any names of the persons who actually picked you out
20 and took you to, in this case, to the Bulevar?
21 A. I don't remember the persons who were taking us there. For the
22 most part, I did not know them.
23 Q. Now, Witness, you're going to be shown a photograph which you may
24 want to put on the ELMO after you've had a look at it. What I would like
25 you to do is, first of all, do you recognise this photograph, what's
1 depicted on this photograph?
2 A. I do recognise it. It's the -- it's the Bulevar or the former
3 line of separation.
4 Q. Now, could you please, with the marker, indicate the actual
5 location where you worked when you were working at the Bulevar?
6 A. As far as I can recall, this was in this area here.
7 Q. Maybe with the pointer you can also indicate where you made the
8 mark because it may be a bit difficult to see.
9 A. [Indicates]
10 Q. Okay. Thank you. Now, what was it that you have to do there,
11 that you had to do there?
12 A. We dug trenches and built bunkers for the HVO.
13 Q. And do you recall any particular incidents or incident while you
14 were working at the Bulevar?
15 A. Well, on one occasion, we were used as human shields because the
16 trenches were not dug as well as they should have. The prisoners were
17 told to line up and protect the HVO soldiers who were passing through that
18 trench. And that was one of the incidents, if you can call it an
20 Q. Now, in the area where you had to line up, was the area exposed in
21 the sense that the soldiers from the other side of the confrontation line
22 could actually hit you or shoot at you?
23 A. Yes. Well, that was exactly the reason for us being lined up in
24 that way because the members of the HVO probably expected that the members
25 of the ABiH would not shoot if they saw prisoners being lined up there
1 because we were all in civilian clothes.
2 Q. And did there -- in fact, was there any shooting while you were
3 lined up there?
4 A. At that time, no.
5 Q. Witness, do you recall for which HVO unit you were working while
6 you were working at the Bulevar?
7 A. I don't know the names of units; however, there were different
8 people there indeed who were members of the HVO. I know that there were
9 some persons who had -- I believe that there was a Canadian of Croatian
10 origin, there was one U.S., a dark man, and then there was a German. Some
11 of them also spoke in clear Croatian accent even though they did not wear
12 HV uniforms. For instance, one of them had a clear Dalmatian accent, but
13 I don't know exactly what the units were and what they were called.
14 Q. Do you recall any of the names of the HVO soldiers who were there
15 at the Bulevar while you were working there?
16 A. I remember. I remember some Bosniaks who were also with the HVO,
17 but for the most part these were men with criminal records. I know that
18 Benito Sesar was around there. I don't know if he was a member, but he
19 was there on one occasion. He came to the confrontation line on one
20 occasion. Senad Mahmutovic was also there. There was also a person named
21 Fadil, I think, Golos, nicknamed Cuni. I know that Senad Mahmutovic had a
22 criminal record. For this Cuni, they said that he was a drug user.
23 Q. Could you please spell the name of that last person you've been
24 referring to; is that a nickname or a full name?
25 A. Who are you referring to?
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Q. Cuni.
2 A. I believe Fadil Golos, as far as I can remember right now. This
3 is a long time ago, but I think it is, first name F-a-d-i-l, last name
5 Q. And the nickname of this Fadil Golos was Cuni; am I correct in
6 understanding you?
7 A. Yes, I believe Cuni, C-u-n-i.
8 Q. Thank you. Witness, you also said that you worked at the
9 Santiceva Street. On how many occasions did you work there?
10 A. At least twice. Once we were there for three days. We were taken
11 to sleep to the Dzemal Bijedic University, and it was indeed very tough
12 working there, because we were taken there at gunpoint. We were making
13 bunkers and trenches for the HVO soldiers, and they were trying to extend
14 the line facing the ABiH, and also we feared that the ABiH soldiers could
15 also shoot at us because we were going into their territory and building
16 bunkers there. On several occasions, it happened to me that I had warning
17 shots flying near me, because I was in that area.
18 Q. Did you see prisoners get wounded at Santiceva street?
19 A. I know that one prisoner was wounded when I was around there,
20 because he was carried by me, and I saw him covered in blood. I don't
21 know exactly where he had been hit, but before this, there had been
23 Q. Witness, were you on one occasion also taken to Rastani? And when
24 was this?
25 A. I was taken to Rastani sometime around the 15th of September,
1 1993, also to perform labour, with a group of prisoners. I believe we
2 were about ten.
3 Q. What did you have to do and what happened there?
4 A. First off, I should say that we were guarded by the Protection
5 Platoon, and I have to say that they behaved correctly, but we were also
6 digging trenches there on -- at the confrontation line facing the army,
7 and I believe that on that occasion, one of the prisoners, I don't recall
8 his name now, had to carry mines into the Mostar hydro power plant. They
9 were to be deployed there in case that the ABiH decided to move and
10 advance on Rastani.
11 Q. And did the ABiH in fact move and advance into Rastani?
12 A. Yes, they did. I think that that was on the 20th. And on that
13 occasion, I was set free with -- along with this group of prisoners who
14 were working there.
15 Q. Now, what did you do when you were set free in Rastani?
16 A. We were there for a period of time, and then we crossed over to
17 the free territory. However, Rastani were counterattacked a day later and
18 retaken by the HVO.
19 Q. Do you know whether -- when the -- when there was a counterattack
20 again by the HVO, whether there were any prisoners involved in this
22 A. Later on, I heard that some prisoners had been pushed in front of
23 the HVO troops during the attack and that some of them were killed. I
24 don't know any names, but I know that on that occasion, some of those
25 prisoners managed to escape, that is to cross over to the free territory,
1 two persons whom I knew.
2 Q. Now, Witness, did you -- when you were set free, did you return to
3 East Mostar? Is that correct?
4 A. Yes, that is correct.
5 MR. BOS: Your Honour, for my last couple of questions, I'd like
6 to go into private session again, please.
7 JUDGE LIU: We will go to the private session, please.
8 [Private session]
8 [Closed session]
3 [Open session]
4 JUDGE LIU: We'll have our break, about 25 minutes. We'll resume
5 at quarter to 6.00.
6 --- Recess taken at 5.17 p.m.
7 --- On resuming at 5.47 p.m.
8 JUDGE LIU: Are we going to have our witness?
9 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, maybe I can make use of one moment.
10 The most important thing of course, at least I think so, is to finish the
11 witness as far as possible, and so if we can use that time to do so, that
12 would be my preference. But I did, as I said I would, I do have with me
13 the statements about the wooden rifles and photographs of the wooden
14 rifle, and we can either do that if we have time yet tonight or we can do
15 it in the morning, but I do want to make the Chamber, since I represented
16 to you that I would do it today, that it is available and if we have time,
17 we can do it this evening or we can do it tomorrow morning.
18 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. We'll do that after we finish with this
19 testimony of this witness.
20 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. President.
21 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
22 Please sit down, Witness. Any cross-examination? Mr. Par.
23 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
24 Cross-examined by Mr. Par:
25 Q. Good afternoon, Witness. I am Zelimir Par, and I am one of the
1 Defence attorneys for Mr. Vinko Martinovic. I'm going to ask you a few
2 questions in relation to your evidence today.
3 Please, can you tell me, do you still work in the same job that
4 you said you had worked on previously?
5 A. I think that this was done in the closed session. I don't know if
6 you --
7 Q. We are in the open session, but I think you can say this now.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Were you involved in any activities in trying to determine the
10 cause of death of Nenad Harmandic?
11 A. Personally, I was not involved.
12 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Perhaps we can go into the private
13 session just in case something comes up.
14 [Private session]
13 Pages 7133-7137 – redacted – private session
14 [Open session]
15 MR. PAR: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Who received you at the Heliodrom personally? I mean who was
17 that, which organisation? Was it the army? Was it the military police?
18 Who was it?
19 A. What I know is that those men had HVO uniform on, camouflage
20 uniforms. They were the ones who took us in and -- who took us to and
21 into the Heliodrom.
22 Q. And at the Heliodrom itself, there were some men who brought you
23 there and others received you there. Those who received you, you say that
24 they had HVO uniforms. Did they have white belts? Could you perhaps say
25 if they were military police?
1 A. I do not remember exactly if there were any white belts.
2 Q. And did you generally, during your stay at the Heliodrom, did you
3 see those guards wear any white belts? Or rather, could you see if the
4 Heliodrom was being manned, was being run, by the military police?
5 A. From time to time, I saw men who I could assume were military
6 policemen, but who they were exactly, I wouldn't really know. They were
7 guards there. They were prison guards, I do not really know what to call
9 Q. Well, tell me, then, who was it that took your names down? Or did
10 anyone register you when you arrived at the Heliodrom? When you arrived
11 you were then registered by somebody. What was done next?
12 A. Yes, all our names were taken down. We were made to stand in a
13 line, and all our names were taken down.
14 Q. But my question was who did that? What did that person look
15 like? What are the circumstances, the impression you got? I can't really
16 make any guesses. Would you tell me what it looked like?
17 A. As far as I can remember, those persons wore camouflage uniforms.
18 I know the names of some of them. They were there at the time when the
19 names were being taken down. I do not know exactly who it was that
20 registered my name, but I know some of the men who were present there at
21 the time.
22 Q. No, I'm not interested in specific persons, I'm interested in the
23 procedure. You arrived where your name is taken down. What happens, how
24 does it go?
25 A. Nobody told us why our names were being taken down or why we were
1 there. Well, perhaps I could have understood because I was a member of
2 the police, for that reason. But as I told you, people were rounded up
3 from the buildings. I mean all the Bosniaks, regardless, and there were
4 people who -- I should say that the majority of them were not active in
5 any formation.
6 Q. Yes, we understand that, and we heard it in your testimony and in
7 the testimony of others, but what we are talking about now is not the
8 criteria on the basis of which they were brought there, but what was the
9 procedure? Who was in command? Do you know who was the commander?
10 A. No, I do not know that. I know that one person on one occasion
11 mentioned that he knew who that was but I just don't recall the name, that
12 he knew who was the warden there, but I don't remember.
13 Q. You see, I am asking you all this because I think that you are a
14 competent person in this regard because you found yourself in a situation
15 where you could observe, see, register, certain things better than some
16 others. And I'm asking you so that we could gain a picture from a person
17 who would know how to observe those things, who could see who was doing
18 what, who were the persons doing that. Was it the military police? Was
19 it a prison? Was it a camp? Whether there was some internal organisation
20 or something, in that sense, I meant if you could help us.
21 A. Well, I do not know if you think that I am more competent than
22 others to answer that. I think, however, that first of all, I was very
23 much afraid, and that I feared for my life all the time so that perhaps
24 now, if something happened -- if something like that happened to me again,
25 perhaps I would pay more attention to them now than I did then.
1 Q. Very well. And let's know about this labour duty. You have
2 arrived at the airport [as interpreted], you are there, and they take
3 you. Now, do they take your names down when you come back?
4 A. As far as I can remember, no, they did take no names down. No,
5 they didn't, or at least I didn't see them on some occasions.
6 Q. Would they take down the names of who has left and where?
7 A. Well, just as I have just told you. As far as I can remember, at
8 times they took our names down, at times they didn't.
9 Q. Why I am asking you this. Now, from the Heliodrom you go to a
10 unit. Do you feel -- do you go on feeling as if you were a prisoner of
11 the Heliodrom or have you become at that moment a prisoner of that unit?
12 Do you think that that is the extended arm of the Heliodrom when you are
13 there? Are you still a Heliodrom prisoner, sent to work as a Heliodrom
14 prisoner to a unit and brought back to those who have power over you, if I
15 can put it that way?
16 A. Believe me, I never gave it a thought at the time. The only thing
17 I thought about was how to survive.
18 Q. Yes, then. And now, now, you do have any idea, do you have any
19 knowledge about this or not? If not, then --
20 A. I don't know what the organisation was. I think I understand what
21 you're trying to ask me, but I do not know what was the organisation and
22 who was directly responsible for us, people who kept us there or people
23 who took us away. I really do not know that. I should say both.
24 Q. Very well. Now we are at the Heliodrom, and I'm talking about
25 Harmandic, that part of your testimony.
1 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] For a moment, could we go into private
2 session, please.
3 JUDGE LIU: We'll go into the private session, please.
4 [Private session]
13 Pages 7143-7148 – redacted – private session
8 [Open session]
9 MR. PAR: [Interpretation]
14 Q. I won't mention names or places. I only have one question. We
15 can do that, but I just -- yes, let us go back.
16 MR. BOS: I think we should go into private session for this.
17 It's a specific request from the witness.
18 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We will go into the private session, please.
19 [Private session]
17 [Open session]
18 MR. PAR: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Bulevar. You go to work on the Bulevar. You drew to us a place
20 where you were. You gave us the names of some people who were there. If
21 I noted that down correctly, the names was Benito Sesar, Senad
23 A. Senad Mahmutovic.
24 Q. Senad Mahmutovic, Fadil Golos. So my question is: Do you know,
25 have any knowledge, if those persons whose names we have just mentioned
1 ere members of the Benko Penavic's unit commanded by Mario Milicevic,
3 A. I do not know what unit they belonged to.
4 Q. I'm sorry that we received from the Prosecution information about
5 all these units. But Benko Penavic, the Prosecutor doesn't have it and
6 nobody else gave it for that particular unit, any document, so I cannot
7 show you any of these documents, but be that as it may, you don't know
9 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Witness, I do not have any more
11 Your Honours, I have finished my cross-examination.
12 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Any cross-examination from Defence counsel
13 for Naletilic? Yes, Mr. Krsnik.
14 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I believe that my
15 colleague has asked all the questions that the Defence of Mr. Mladen
16 Naletilic may have to ask so that I do not want to waste your time anymore
17 with any cross-examination on our part. Thank you.
18 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.
19 Any re-examination?
20 MR. BOS: No, Your Honours.
21 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Any questions from the Judges?
22 Judge Clark.
23 Questioned by the Court:
24 JUDGE CLARK: I just want to ask you if this is something that you
25 know as a citizen of Mostar: If someone makes a complaint about criminal
1 activity against a person on the west side, who investigates that?
2 A. Right now in Mostar -- are we in a closed session? At present,
3 there are six --
4 MR. BOS: I don't think we are in closed session.
5 JUDGE LIU: We'll go to the private session, please.
6 [Private session]
13 Page 7153 – redacted – private session
21 [Open session]
22 JUDGE LIU: Judge Diarra.
23 JUDGE DIARRA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
24 Regarding your work on the front lines, you told us that you were
25 used as a kind of a wall, as a kind of a screen to protect HVO fighters
1 because the latter thought that the BH army, when they saw you, would
2 abstain from fire because you were wearing civilian clothes.
3 Now, I did not expect you to tell us what the HVO combatants
4 thought when they put you in front of them. What I should like to know,
5 rather, is how did things happen specifically? Were you there to receive
6 the bullets fired by the army across the street or did your presence there
7 actually dissuade the BH army from attacking? What happened? Were you
8 really a screen or what happened, or was it really to prevent others from
10 A. I can say that we were made to be human shields so that they could
11 pass securely. I think that they were expecting the members of the ABiH
12 not to shoot or, if they did shoot, that we would be hit first and then
13 they would have enough time to take cover. I don't know what I thought,
14 but I think that that may have been the line of thinking that they were
16 JUDGE DIARRA: [Interpretation] Yes. But this human shield, this
17 is something that we heard about and this is the first time that we heard
18 that it was a means of dissuasion, that is, a means used to dissuade an
19 army from opening fire.
20 A. I really don't know what thoughts went through the minds of the
21 people who did that. I don't know whether it was to prevent people from
22 shooting or to -- us take the bullets. It could have been one of the
23 reasons, at least this is what I heard later on.
24 JUDGE DIARRA: [Interpretation] Thank you for your answer.
25 JUDGE LIU: Any questions out of Judge's questions?
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Yes, Mr. Par.
2 Further cross-examination by Mr. Par:
3 Q. [Interpretation] My colleague just asked me if the witness could
4 clarify that there are a number of war criminals who still have not been
5 persecuted. Was he referring to persons of all ethnic groups?
6 A. Of course I was referring to persons of all ethnic groups.
7 JUDGE LIU: Thank you, Witness, for coming here to give us
8 testimony. We wish you good luck in your future.
9 The usher may take you out of the room.
10 [The witness withdrew]
11 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Bos.
12 MR. BOS: I'd like to tender two exhibits for this witness. First
13 one is Exhibit 14.5/10. The other exhibit is Exhibit 11.18/8 under seal,
14 the second, the 11.18/8.
15 JUDGE LIU: Are there any objections?
16 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] No objection, Your Honour.
17 MR. KRSNIK: No, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Thank you very much. Those two documents
19 will be admitted into evidence under seal.
20 Mr. Scott, are you ready for your next witness?
21 MR. SCOTT: No, Your Honour. We've, I think quite pleasantly,
22 ended a bit early, but actually it would give me the time, if the Chamber
23 will allow, to address some of these other matters and then we can start
24 with the next witness first thing in the morning.
25 Your Honour, concerning -- I was looking for the pseudonym of the
1 one witness. If I could just have one moment, I'm about to get it.
2 Your Honour, concerning the request the Chamber made for
3 statements concerning a witness who -- it was Witness QQ, there was an
4 incident in the courtroom, and Your Honour, Mr. President, you directed
5 that an inquiry be made into that. I have provided that -- those
6 statements to counsel already, just this afternoon, but I also will tender
7 -- I will also tender three copies, Your Honours, to the Judges and one
8 copy for the Registrar. Obviously, these will have to be filed under
9 seal, but I expect this is what the Chamber requested. I'm assuming that
10 you wanted these to be provided not only to counsel but to the Court. So
11 that's the -- I'm operating on that assumption. And again, for the
12 record, this is concerning Witness QQ and should be received under seal,
14 JUDGE LIU: Could Madam Registrar give a number to this document?
15 MR. SCOTT: I just provided -- perhaps for identification
16 purposes. We are not making it an exhibit. And again, Mr. President, I
17 guess I'm looking -- perhaps if I'm doing something contrary to what the
18 Court intended, but I thought -- this is what I contemplated the Chamber
19 had asked us, to take this statement and provide it to the Chamber. We
20 don't -- we are not tendering it as evidence as such but simply making a
21 report back to the Chamber, on your instructions.
22 JUDGE LIU: I know at least it should have an ID number so that we
23 could find those documents in the future.
24 MR. SCOTT: I agree with you, Mr. President.
25 Secondly, Your Honours, I can also tender now to Your Honours and
1 to counsel -- and again I'm operating on the same assumptions. This is
2 not evidence, but to respond to the Court's direction, I can now provide
3 statements from Witness -- follow-up statements concerning Witness PP,
4 which I will tender at this time and should be again, please, placed under
5 seal. As soon as these have been distributed, I'll make a few comments,
6 but I'll deal with the distribution first. Counsel -- I think counsel --
7 no, counsel needs them as well.
8 I'll say, for purposes of the translation booth, I don't think it
9 will be necessary -- I don't think anyone is going to be making extensive
10 reference to these documents that we are now distributing at this time,
11 but if it becomes necessary, I will.
12 I'm also tendering, Mr. President, the supplemental statement of
13 Witness OO, which again should be, please, received under seal. In fact,
14 I believe, if I'm not mistaken, concerning Witness OO, there are two
15 statements. I should also state for the record, B/C/S versions have also
16 been provided. But I think with Witness OO, there are actually two
17 statements stapled together as one packet, but there are two related items
18 on that, so there is no confusion.
19 And then finally, Your Honours, I'm happy to tender to Your
20 Honours and to counsel a set of photographs, and again ask that these be
21 marked, at the moment only for identification, as are the -- as the other
22 statements as well, the statements that we've just handed out.
23 Mr. President, and again for the Witness PP statements and the
24 Witness OO statements, I think, to be consistent, I agree, Mr. President,
25 they should also be given numbers just for identification.
1 At the moment, Mr. President, I'm tendering these, again, the
2 photo -- what's been -- the packet that has the photos can again be made
3 -- be given an identification number for now. One of the things I'll ask
4 the Chamber, if the Chamber cares to give me guidance, I suppose you don't
5 have to, but Chamber might care to give us some additional guidance as to
6 what its thinking is on this matter, and I can give a further report at
7 the moment, but I was just dealing with all the procedural regularities
8 first. But the photo album consists of a number of photographs, and let
9 me say that the investigation so far -- and I realise, fully realise, that
10 what I'm about -- what I'm saying is not evidence, of course, and I don't
11 mean to suggest it is. I'm simply making a report to the Chamber on the
12 investigation that I understand the Chamber directed us to undertake.
13 This is not the rifle -- we do not believe in the investigation so
14 far that this is the rifle that was referenced by Witness OO. I'm sorry
15 if this gets a bit confusing, but I'll try to make it as simple as
16 possible. We do not believe so far that this is the rifle that had been
17 associated with Witness OO. We submit that it is likely - but again not
18 -- we are not certain - that it is likely a rifle associated with the
19 Witness PP.
20 You will see that, as it's been described by various witnesses, if
21 the Chamber has the photographs out of the packet, there are different
22 views of the rifle. I won't go through all of them individually. There
23 are some, looking at the photograph, next to a person showing their leg,
24 to give the Chamber some scale, both sides of the rifle. There is one
25 photograph with the rifle turned, if you will, to show its thinnest
1 dimension, the narrow -- showing the width or thickness of the rifle, I
2 suppose. And others showing different portions of the rifle.
3 I'll just stop on two -- the two, I think, toward the end. The
4 Chamber will have this version on which various markings have been placed
5 which shows the dimensions of the rifle, and on this larger version, you
6 will have then the rifle on both sides.
7 Based on the inquiries that have been made so far, Mr. President,
8 this does not appear to be a rifle that -- there was a reference to a
9 rifle being in a museum. We do not believe that that is this rifle. But
10 subsequent to the matter coming up in court, the inquiries were made and
11 this rifle was found, which we submit, we think, on the current
12 information available to us, is likely the rifle associated with
13 Witness PP.
14 Now, as I said, I don't know exactly what the Chamber's views
15 might be, in terms of what -- where it would like to go with this in terms
16 of witnesses being recalled or further inquiries being made, and I'm not
17 suggesting that you need to give me any additional guidance this evening,
18 or at all for that matter. Of course, I'm in the Chamber's hands, but,
19 Your Honour, I wanted to report that the Prosecution had sought to fulfil
20 the instructions that you gave us and have made this report to you and
21 Your Honour Judge Clark and Your Honour Judge Diarra. Thank you.
22 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. We believe that you made great
23 efforts in this respect. But the one question I want to ask before
24 Mr. Seric, whether you have made any efforts to get that rifle in the
25 museum yet, because that wooden rifle was specifically mentioned by that
2 MR. SCOTT: The answer is yes, but we've not been able to locate
3 it at this point. Not sure that it's still where it once -- people once
4 thought it was, but we are still making additional inquiries.
5 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.
6 Mr. Seric?
7 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. Based on
8 the words that you used when you addressed the Prosecutor, I see that we
9 are on the same wavelength. That is precisely what I was about to say,
10 that the rifle, this rifle, which was one of the elements on which we
11 could verify the statement of this witness, should have been here and
12 should have been in that museum beforehand, as you very accurately put it,
13 Mr. President. So if -- we want to see that rifle, if that is the rifle
14 that is specifically mentioned by this witness, we want to be able to
15 analyse it, and we would like to have that rifle be tendered into evidence
16 in a proper way, through this proper witness or a proper statement, and we
17 also want to be able to properly cross-examine this witness or statement
18 on that point.
19 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik?
20 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Very briefly, Your Honour. These are
21 supplemental statements, and all these statements, in the view of the
22 Defence, cannot be entered into evidence before they have been properly
23 tested, verified, in cross-examination.
24 JUDGE LIU: Well, as I understand, the Prosecutor has no intention
25 to tender these into the evidence at this stage. They just act in
1 accordance with orders from this Trial Chamber. The purpose for giving
2 each a number is just for the identification. They are not the evidence,
3 at least at this moment.
4 Having said that, Madam Registrar will give a proper number, that
5 is the ID number.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Okay. The first statement, which is statement of
7 QQ, will be ID 3. The next statement, which is statement of PP, is ID 4.
8 Under seal?
9 MR. SCOTT: Yes.
10 THE REGISTRAR: Under seal. The next statement of OO is ID 5, and
11 that also is under seal.
12 The series of photographs are as follows: The first page which
13 describes the rifles, which is document number 02132831, is ID 6. The
14 next exhibit, which is PB-KA-01, is marked as ID 6.1. The next exhibit
15 PB-KA-02, ID 6.2. PB-KA-03 is ID 6.3. PB-KA-04 is ID 6.4. PB-KA-05 ID
16 6.5. PB-KA-06 is 6.6, ID 6.6. PB-KA-11 is ID 6.7. PB-KA-12 is ID 6.8.
17 The last, which is the fold out. PB-KA-09/10/11 is 6.9, that is
18 ID 6.9.
19 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. We will resume at 9.30.
20 [Trial Chamber confers]
21 JUDGE LIU: We will resume at 9.30 tomorrow morning in
22 Courtroom I.
23 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned
24 at 6.55 p.m., to be reconvened on Friday
25 the 7th day of December, 2001, at
1 9.30 a.m.