Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 7747

1 Friday, 11 January 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.30 a.m.

5 JUDGE LIU: Are you okay to call the case, Madam Registrar? If

6 not, we'll have it skipped.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is Case Number

8 IT-98-34-T, the Prosecutor versus Naletilic and Martinovic.

9 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. You sound better than yesterday.

10 I hope you have a speedy recovery.

11 Yes, Mr. Stringer.

12 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, if I could briefly address the Trial

13 Chamber.

14 JUDGE LIU: Yes, please.

15 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, by the time that we reached the end

16 of yesterday's proceedings, it was clear to those of us on the Prosecution

17 side that the Trial Chamber as well as the witness himself, Dr. Zujo,

18 would have benefited had photographs of the exhumations and autopsies of

19 Harmandic and Colakovic been available during the testimony. Dr. Zujo

20 referred to the photographs a number of times during his

21 cross-examination, and also in response to questions from Judge Clark.

22 We do have the photographs; and in fact, those were among the

23 17 binders that were distributed to the Trial Chamber and the parties

24 prior to the beginning of the trial. They were marked as Exhibits P843,

25 for Harmandic, and 844, for Colakovic. Mr. President, I wish I could

Page 7748

1 offer the Trial Chamber an explanation as to why the photographs were not

2 referred to during the direct examination of Dr. Zujo, but I can't. I

3 failed to do it, simply.

4 During the course of the cross-examination and Judge Clark's

5 questions, I recalled that we had the photographs, that we had them

6 marked, and I think all of us on the Prosecution side realised that a

7 mistake had been made. The autopsy photos that were previously

8 distributed are in black and white. We now have a sufficient set, number

9 of sets, of colour copies of the photos. Although he is near the end of

10 his testimony, Dr. Zujo is still here, and will appear in this morning's

11 proceedings.

12 Mr. President, the Prosecution would, therefore, propose to

13 distribute the colour copies to the Trial Chamber and the Defence so that

14 they may be of assistance to the Trial Chamber in what remains of

15 Dr. Zujo's testimony. Although the photographs were provided to the

16 Defence prior to the trial, they were not used during the direct

17 examination and, therefore, the Prosecution would not oppose giving the

18 Defence an opportunity to reopen its cross-examination of Dr. Zujo in

19 respect of the photos should the Trial Chamber wish to do so. If the

20 Trial Chamber permits Dr. Zujo to testify about the photographs, the

21 Prosecution would then propose to tender them into evidence so that they

22 may accompany his Rule 94 bis statement.

23 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. Are those photos the same as the

24 photos in the Document 843 and 844?

25 MR. STRINGER: Yes, Mr. President, they are the same photographs,

Page 7749

1 only in colour rather than in black and white. And I believe that they

2 are more useful in colour than the black and white copies that were

3 distributed. I should add that the Defence were notified yesterday

4 afternoon after the proceedings that, in fact, the photographs were part

5 of the binders that had been distributed previously, and that we felt that

6 we had made an error in not referring to them during the direct.

7 [Trial Chamber confers]

8 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Meek.

9 MR. MEEK: Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours. I just have

10 a question from the Defence side. We were wondering whether or not the

11 Prosecution would, perhaps, have in their possession copies of the

12 information that had been given to the examining magistrate and the police

13 investigators from the family initially regarding what type of items could

14 be gained from any body that might be found to identify their loved ones.

15 We have not received those. We don't know whether they are in the

16 possession of the Office of the Prosecutor or not. I think the witness

17 indicated he believed they were back in Sarajevo or Mostar.

18 JUDGE LIU: Well, I believe this question will be asked by the

19 Prosecution if we are going to have this witness here. So we decided to

20 give the Prosecutor another opportunity to ask some questions concerning

21 of those photographs first. And then the Defence counsel are entitled to

22 make their cross-examination concerning with those photos. That is a very

23 limited subject. And after that, Judge Clark will continue her question

24 on that point. It seems to me that has been agreed by both parties.

25 Mr. Usher, would you please bring in the witness, please.

Page 7750

1 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, at this time we can distribute the

2 colour photographs as well.

3 JUDGE LIU: Yes, please.

4 Well, these are much better pictures than those in the 17 binders.

5 You may ask questions, maybe one photo after another, so that to tell us

6 what those photos are about.

7 MR. STRINGER: That's what I'll do, Mr. President. And I think as

8 everyone probably knows, the witness has not seen these, or at least not

9 recently, and is not aware of the Trial Chamber's decision today. And so

10 it may take a few moments for him to orientate and to refamiliarise

11 himself with them.

12 [The witness entered court]

13 JUDGE LIU: Good morning, Witness. Did you have a good rest

14 yesterday?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I caught a cold, it seems.

16 JUDGE LIU: You have to be very careful here.

17 Yes, Mr. Stringer.

18 WITNESS: HAMZA ZUJO [Resumed]

19 [Witness answered through interpreter]

20 Further examination by Mr. Stringer:

21 Q. Good morning. Dr. Zujo, before you entered the courtroom, the

22 Trial Chamber agreed that I would be able to ask you a few additional

23 questions, and perhaps also the Defence, and then we would return to the

24 questions from Judge Clark. And I have a couple of additional exhibits to

25 show you.

Page 7751

1 MR. STRINGER: At this time I would like to ask that the witness

2 be given exhibits marked as P843 and 844.

3 Q. Dr. Zujo, please take a few moments just to look through these two

4 exhibits, and then I'll ask you some questions about them.

5 A. Thank you.

6 Q. Dr. Zujo, directing your attention first to the exhibit that's

7 marked P843, are you able to recognise this exhibit and if so, could you

8 tell us what this is?

9 A. Can you please help me orient myself. I'm looking for 843.

10 Q. Yes. Perhaps the usher -- on the very front page, you will find a

11 number in the bottom right-hand corner.

12 A. 843. Yes.

13 Q. Dr. Zujo, during the course of your testimony yesterday, you

14 testified about the practice of taking photographs both of the exhumation

15 site and also photographs during the course of autopsies performed. Do

16 these photographs appear to correspond to the exhumation and the autopsy

17 of the body that was subsequently identified as that of Nenad Harmandic?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. I'm going to ask you just a few questions about each of the

20 photographs. So if you will permit me, I would just like to go through

21 each of these one by one. And as you see, there is a legend at the front

22 of the photographs which may be of assistance, or it may not. But in any

23 event, if we could just go directly to photograph number 1, and if you

24 could please describe for us or tell us what is shown in that photograph.

25 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, excuse me for interrupting,

Page 7752

1 Dr. Zujo, it may be preferable or useful if there is an extra set of the

2 photos, we could also put it on the ELMO.

3 Q. Dr. Zujo, the photograph that is marked as number 1, are you able

4 to tell us what that photograph shows?

5 A. Photograph number 1 is a wider view of the location, the Liska

6 Park, and the location where the exhumations were to take place. You can

7 see a depression there. That is the location. And this was photographed

8 from a wider angle around the location where the exhumation was to take

9 place.

10 Q. So this is Liska Park in Mostar; is that correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And then photograph 2, and also photograph 3, which appear to be

13 related, can you tell us what those show?

14 A. Yes. Photographs number 2 and 3 show the location where the

15 exhumation was performed. And do you see the wooden marker with letters

16 "NN", that was just above the spot where we performed the exhumation.

17 You can see it marked with "NN", double "N".

18 Q. And then there's also I see a marker with the letters "LIS", and

19 then the number 5. Does that number 5 correspond to what's

20 called "working number 05" in your report?

21 A. Yes, what you see as "LIS", that is the abbreviation for Liska

22 Park.

23 Q. And the number 5, what's the significance of the number "5"?

24 A. Number 5 signifies the number of body, that is, the number of the

25 actual location where we were going to work.

Page 7753

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Page 7754

1 Q. Does that appear to correspond to the working number 05 that was

2 assigned to the body subsequently identified as Nenad Harmandic?

3 A. Number 5 is the spot which is what I referred to yesterday, this

4 is the number associated with that location, which is the location where

5 we were going to perform the work. And then number 5 was subsequently

6 associated with the body all the way until the body was reburied.

7 Q. If I could direct you now to photograph numbers 4 and 5, if you

8 could please tell the Trial Chamber what is shown in those two

9 photographs.

10 A. Photographs 4 and 5 show clothing.

11 Q. Now, Dr. Zujo, in the statement that you provided to the Trial

12 Chamber last October, on page 4 you state that working number 05 was a

13 man's body, overall skeletonisation. The body was wrapped in an army

14 blanket. Are you able to determine or shed any light on whether the blue

15 material is that of clothing or an army blanket? It may be useful just to

16 scan through some of the following -- the later photographs which might

17 shed more light on that question.

18 A. In photograph number 5, and in the photograph number 4, one can

19 see that it is a military blanket. You see here on the side, you can see

20 it on photograph number 4.

21 Q. Perhaps with the pointer you could point to the location on the

22 photograph that you're -- that you've just referred to.

23 A. This. It would be this portion here.

24 Q. Photograph number 6, please.

25 A. Photograph number 6 refers to the blue jeans.

Page 7755

1 Q. On number 6, there is also -- it is obvious that there is

2 skeletonised material in the photograph as well. We are seeing parts of

3 the --

4 A. Yes. We can see part of the skeletal remains and part of the

5 putrefied matter.

6 Q. And I guess, just for the record, it would appear that in

7 photograph 6 we are looking at what remains of the skull and the upper

8 torso of the body, perhaps extending down to part of the pelvic bone; is

9 that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Now, the photographs that we've looked at so far, 1 through 6,

12 appear to have been taken in the field at Liska Park; is that correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Now, turning the page to the next series of photographs, it

15 appears, Dr. Zujo, that the remaining photographs were not taken in the

16 field but were, rather, taken at the location of the autopsy examination;

17 is that correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Then could you please describe for us what's shown in photograph

20 number 7.

21 A. Photograph number 7 is when the body was laid on the autopsy

22 table. The body bag was open, and a photograph is taken at that point.

23 That is the sequence that is followed during the exhumation, and as I

24 pointed out, this number accompanies the body and is transferred to the

25 autopsy room. And when the bag is open, a photograph is taken in order to

Page 7756

1 confirm that that was the body that had been exhumed at Liska Park.

2 Q. And Dr. Zujo, this photograph gives us an idea or an indication of

3 some of the bones that were used by you, then, to perform your

4 calculations on height. Skull bone, that would appear to be the two

5 femurs, toward the lower part of the body.

6 A. Yes. You can see the entire body here. We see the skull, you see

7 part of the ribcage, pelvic bones. You can see femurs, you can see

8 humerus, and you can also see the tibia and fibulas. And also, the

9 putrefied matter that is around the bones.

10 Q. Photograph number 8, Dr. Zujo, would appear to be the skull?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And then there appears to be part of a lower jawbone, perhaps.

13 Perhaps you could tell us what is the bone that is extending from the

14 skull toward the left of the photograph.

15 A. This is the lower jaw and the teeth in the lower jaw.

16 Q. Dr. Zujo, does this photograph show the fracture, the injury to

17 the lower jaw that you testified about previously?

18 A. Yes, you can see that I am showing with the knife, I am pointing

19 to the place of the injury on the head.

20 Q. So it appears that the jawbone was actually -- the end of the

21 jawbone was actually separated from the skull. Is that a result of the

22 injury or is that the result of the decaying process that occurred after

23 death?

24 A. We have an injury to the lower jaw, but it is -- it has also been

25 separated due to decaying process.

Page 7757

1 Q. And the for the record, you've indicated you're the person whose

2 hands, then, are appearing in these photographs with the yellow gloves on?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And then photograph number 9, Dr. Zujo, can you tell us what's

5 shown in photograph number 9, please.

6 A. Photograph number 9 shows a fracture of the shoulder-blade and of

7 the -- sorry, no. The collar-bone here.

8 Q. So this shows an area of one of the fractures that you've

9 testified about previously?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Number 10, please.

12 A. Number 10 shows the shoulder-blade or scapula.

13 Q. This is also one of the fractures you've testified about in

14 respect of this body?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Number 11, please.

17 A. This is a fracture of the fibula.

18 Q. And one of the injuries which you've testified about in respect of

19 this body. Is number 12 also related -- a related injury?

20 A. Yes, this is also a fracture of the fibula, that is, of one-third

21 of the fibula.

22 Q. And Dr. Zujo, is your testimony that all of these fractures

23 occurred prior to death?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Number 13, please.

Page 7758

1 A. On photograph 13, we can see the footwear, that is, the moccasin

2 shoe.

3 Q. And then number 14.

4 A. 14 shows the projectile that had been found.

5 Q. Can you tell us the other items in 14? Would that be the lighter

6 and the belt buckle?

7 A. I don't see much in this picture, this part of the picture.

8 Q. Does photograph number 15 also -- that appears also to show the

9 bullet --

10 A. The projectile, the projectile.

11 Q. Thank you. Now turning to the next exhibit, Dr. Zujo,

12 Exhibit P844, you could take a moment to look these over. These appear to

13 be photographs associated with the exhumation and autopsy of the body

14 subsequently identified as Aziz Colakovic.

15 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, unless the Trial Chamber asks me to

16 do so, it's not my intent to ask individual questions about these

17 photographs, and I don't think it's necessary, therefore, to put them on

18 the ELMO.

19 Q. Dr. Zujo, have you had a chance to look through these photographs

20 and do you associate them with the particular examination which performed?

21 A. On photograph number 1, we see a broader view of the Saric Harem

22 cemetery.

23 Q. And the additional photographs in this set, do these relate to the

24 exhumation and autopsy of the body that was subsequently identified as

25 Aziz Colakovic?

Page 7759

1 A. Precisely. Because as you see here the saponified corpse, and

2 above number 1, you can see that the fatty tissue had been completely

3 saponified so we cannot see the skeleton, which was not the case with the

4 previous body. On photograph number 5, we see a fracture of the 8th rib.

5 And right here, a fracture of the elbow bone. And number 5, as I said a

6 moment ago, fragments of bones have been removed by blows -- by impact in

7 several places. And that's why we concluded it was a projectile.

8 Q. Thank you, Dr. Zujo.

9 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, I have no further questions.

10 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Stringer, we saw some hands on the picture 4 and

11 picture 7. Would you please ask some questions to this witness about

12 whose hands are these so as to establish whether the witness was present

13 at that time.

14 MR. STRINGER:

15 Q. Dr. Zujo, are you able to tell us whether you personally are

16 present, shown, are your hands anyway, perhaps you and/or your colleague,

17 Dr. Dobraca, shown in either of the photographs -- any of the photographs

18 that are contained in this set?

19 A. These are my hands.

20 Q. That is with the yellow gloves?

21 A. Yes.

22 MR. STRINGER: Thank you.

23 Mr. President, I have no further questions.

24 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Any cross-examination, Mr. Par, please.

25 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. President.

Page 7760

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Page 7761

1 Further cross-examined by Mr. Par:

2 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Dr. Zujo. Regarding this photo

3 documentation, I would like to link this with the questions asked

4 yesterday by Honourable Judge Clark, specifically whether it was a

5 criminal investigation or some other kind of exploration.

6 Tell me to begin with who conducted the photographing --

7 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] I had the impression the President had

8 something to tell me.

9 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Par, you are entitled to ask any questions

10 concerning with the photographs. But as for Judge Clark's question, we'll

11 give you another opportunity if you have any questions out of Judge

12 Clark's question. You may proceed with your questions concerning with all

13 those photographs at this moment. You may proceed, Mr. Par.

14 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

15 Q. So regarding this procedure of autopsy, who organised the taking

16 of photographs, who conducted it? Who managed this process?

17 A. The investigating Judge of the cantonal and county court in

18 Mostar, together with the Prosecutor, had commissioned or engaged the

19 institute for forensic medicine in Sarajevo, as well as the criminal

20 investigations team of the MUP in Mostar, the commission for searching for

21 missing persons was also informed, and the families were informed as well

22 about the oncoming exhumation. And all the photographs that were taken

23 were taken upon the request or on the instructions and orders of the

24 investigating Judge leading the investigation.

25 Q. So who is -- who was specifically the person who was pointing to

Page 7762

1 various locations and saying, Take a photo of this and give me a photo of

2 that? Was it the investigating Judge or somebody else, an expert or

3 something?

4 A. As far as the broader locality is concerned, and the place where

5 we were to conduct the exhumation, it was the investigating Judge who gave

6 all the orders. But the photographs taken in the autopsy room are a

7 different matter. In that case, it was the doctor telling the

8 photographer what to photograph.

9 Q. So out of these photographs, we are now looking at those of the

10 body of Mr. Harmandic, one of the photographs was taken on the -- on your

11 own orders, and another part of the photographs were ordered, so to speak,

12 by the investigating Judge. Is that correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. I will not go photo by photo. Can we agree that the photographs

15 from the autopsy room, the photographs of the body, were taken on your

16 orders, and the other photographs from the locality were taken on the

17 orders of the investigating Judge? Is that correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And what about photographs 14 and 15, where this buckle or the

20 belt is shown? How about that? Do you remember that?

21 A. Yes, it was our job. It was part of our work.

22 Q. All right. Could you tell me now, can you remember at all the

23 specific autopsy conducted on this body of Harmandic, or is it just based

24 on the documentation that you are able to confirm? So do you remember the

25 autopsy itself or can you confirm what you are confirming only based on

Page 7763

1 this background material?

2 A. I'm using the material I have.

3 Q. All right. Fine. Let me ask you one more thing about the

4 photographs: At some point, there is a reference to this army blanket,

5 and it was -- the identification was not quite clear on photographs 4,

6 5, 6. It was unclear whether it was clothing or the army blanket. And as

7 far as I understand, you finally accepted the suggestion that it was an

8 army blanket. It is blue. And my question is: Since the army blankets

9 in the former Yugoslavia were usually drab olive or green/grey, have you

10 seen any other bodies wrapped in such blankets, in such blue blankets?

11 A. I cannot answer that question.

12 Q. Was it you who called it an army blanket or was it somebody else?

13 And in your opinion, is it an army blanket or is it something different?

14 Do you have any recollection of that at all?

15 A. When we said "army blanket," we implied, we meant, that it's not

16 the sort of blanket used in households.

17 Q. Thank you. I am particularly interested in this part of the

18 autopsy. Were the bodies all brought to you in those blankets, or was it

19 specific to this body, the body of Mr. Harmandic?

20 A. I didn't quite get your drift.

21 Q. Maybe I didn't phrase it very well. These graves contained

22 certain corpses. So before the exhumation, were all the bodies wrapped in

23 those blue army blankets? Were they UNPROFOR blankets? I'm trying to

24 determine who had placed them there? Was it somebody who had first

25 wrapped them in those blue blankets and then buried them? Or was it in a

Page 7764

1 different way that it all happened? Could it -- was it possible to

2 determine that through exhumation at all?

3 A. We could not see that because we have a lot of exhumed bodies

4 wrapped in blankets, and we were unable to discern any lettering or sign

5 on the blankets which would indicate its provenance from an international

6 organisation.

7 Q. Fine. So you just think of it as a blanket different from one as

8 used in households, from normal blankets we use at home.

9 So, let me finish with the blanket. It was your conclusion that

10 it was an army blanket.

11 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] All right. I have no further questions

12 for now, Your Honours. Thank you.

13 JUDGE LIU: Any cross-examination, Mr. Meek?

14 Further cross-examined by Mr. Meek:

15 Q. Good morning, Doctor. How are you?

16 A. Good morning.

17 Q. On Exhibit 844, under picture 5, photograph 5, that would be the

18 Aziz Colakovic issue, I believe you just testified in answer to

19 Mr. Stringer's question that this photograph indicated to you certain

20 things such as fragmentations of bones, and that that is why you,

21 therefore, concluded it was a projectile. Was that your testimony this

22 morning?

23 A. Well, precisely on photograph number 5, you see in the lower third

24 of that a clearly marked elbow bone is fragmented in several places. And

25 if you follow the edge of the ribcage up to the eighth rib, you see that a

Page 7765

1 fragment of the bone has been struck out, removed.

2 Q. Again, did you testify this morning under oath that this was the

3 reason you concluded it was a projectile which was involved with this

4 body?

5 A. In our conclusion, that is, in the protocol, we wrote that the

6 possibilities were part of a shell or a projectile, things that could have

7 caused this, that is.

8 Q. And that conclusion, again, from your testimony yesterday, to make

9 it clear was you concluded it most likely or most probably could have been

10 either a projectile or a fragmentation from shrapnel; correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And you stand by that conclusion today?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Thank you, Doctor.

15 In picture number 1 on Exhibit 843 now, there are two depressions

16 in the ground, one to the very left of the photograph and one towards the

17 middle right; correct? Photograph number 1, Doctor.

18 A. On photograph number 1, you have a clearly drawn location of the

19 depression. Just a second, I want to make this clear. What you see here

20 on my left-hand side, there is a fence that I talked about yesterday. You

21 see a fence, and I don't know distance, the precise distance, of the

22 depression from the fence. And in this part, it was covered with leaves.

23 Q. Doctor, it appears to me on this photograph there are two

24 depressions, one in your lower left-hand corner, and then one towards

25 this -- looks to be like a Mercedes Benz automobile parked along the

Page 7766

1 street. My question is that the grave that we have been talking about is

2 the one closer to the automobile; correct?

3 A. Yes, that's the only depression here.

4 Q. And were you at Liska Park on that day looking for or exhuming

5 bodies of children or babies and then just happened on this body? Is that

6 what occurred?

7 A. That day, we conducted exhumations very close to this fence.

8 Newborns had been buried there, new-borns who had died in the maternity

9 ward. And close to that area, we found amputated body parts wrapped into

10 white hospital bed sheets, the kind used in operating theatres. And then

11 we started working on this location marked with number 5.

12 Q. Was it by happenstance that you found a location where the body in

13 number 5 was located, or did you have previous knowledge that you should

14 look there for a body?

15 A. Please, I said right at the beginning, that the entire

16 investigation was led by the investigating Judge. I have nothing to do

17 with it. I don't know what we were looking for or why.

18 Q. Thank you. One final question: On that same document,

19 photograph 15, please. Can you tell me, Doctor, was that photograph taken

20 at the scene of the exhumation in Liska Park or back at the location where

21 the autopsy was performed?

22 A. Yes, yesterday I answered a question regarding the calibre of the

23 projectile, and I said we used the measuring instruments to measure the

24 diameter on the spot. And all of this was done in the autopsy room,

25 photographs 14, 15, 13, all of them were made in the autopsy room.

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Page 7768

1 Q. Doctor, thank you very much. And I wish you a safe trip.

2 A. Thank you.

3 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Par.

4 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] I would just like to try and correct a

5 mistake in the transcript, if I can.

6 JUDGE LIU: Yes, please.

7 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] During my examination, I asked on

8 page 16, line 6, a question of the witness to the effect, is it your

9 conclusion that the blanket was an army blanket. The witness just nodded

10 his head but gave no audible answer, so we don't have that answer on the

11 record. And it is my request now that the witness should perhaps answer

12 this question again so that we can have it on the record.

13 Further cross-examined by Mr. Par:

14 Q. [Interpretation] So is it your conclusion, Witness, that in that

15 particular case the blanket was an army blanket?

16 A. Yes.

17 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] I hope the answer has been recorded now.

18 That would be all. Thanks.

19 JUDGE LIU: Any re-examination, Mr. Stringer?

20 MR. STRINGER: Just one clarification on that last point, because

21 I think it should be clear in the record.

22 Further re-examination by Mr. Stringer:

23 Q. Dr. Zujo, by army blanket, do you mean a blanket of the former

24 Yugoslav army, or as you said earlier a blanket that is of a nature other

25 than one would find in a normal domestic or house setting? Tell us what

Page 7769

1 you mean by "army blanket"?

2 A. I said a little while ago that it was different from the kind of

3 blankets we use at home. It is a blue or grey without any design,

4 monochrome blue or grey, and in that respect, it is different from the

5 normal blankets we use at home.

6 Q. Do you mean to suggest -- when you say "army blanket", are you

7 suggesting that this is a blanket that had been used by an army or a

8 military organisation?

9 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Meek.

10 MR. MEEK: Mr. President, with all due respect and understanding

11 that -- from what Judge Clark told me two days ago, or yesterday, this is

12 an expert witness, but certainly his expertise doesn't go to army blankets

13 or that sort of expertise. So I object on speculation. It's a

14 speculative question.

15 JUDGE LIU: Well, let us exhaust the recollections of this witness

16 to see what his answer is on this particular question.

17 Witness, you may answer the question, please.

18 A. We called it an army blanket, because it was different from the

19 blankets we have at our homes. That's all I can say.

20 MR. STRINGER: Thank you, Dr. Zujo. Nothing further,

21 Mr. President.

22 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Judge Clark?

23 Further questioned by the Court:

24 JUDGE CLARK: Dr. Zujo, I think that army blankets have never been

25 known by their comfort but have certainly been known for their longevity,

Page 7770

1 which is proved by the condition of this blanket after so many years under

2 the soil.

3 The photographs have been of great assistance to me, because I

4 think that everybody in the court will appreciate how difficult it is for

5 forensic scientists to estimate an ante mortem height from what literally

6 is a bag of bones.

7 I just wanted to ask you a couple of questions arising out of

8 those photographs. I know it's a very long time ago, and I know that you

9 have conducted many, many autopsies in similar circumstances. If you

10 could cast your mind back to Liska Park, is it a burial place for all

11 categories of faith?

12 A. I know that there are a number of tombstones, some very expensive

13 ones, but I am unable to say whether persons of other faiths were also

14 represented. What I know is that this park is now a cemetery. But I

15 really wouldn't know whether persons of other faiths are also represented

16 there.

17 JUDGE CLARK: So can I read from that that the appearance of the

18 cemetery to you was that it was a Muslim cemetery, a Muslim burial place?

19 A. When you enter the cemetery, among the Muslims, there are markers

20 which you immediately recognise. But if there would be only a tablet

21 there or something like that, a marker, you would have to come close and

22 read what was on it. And I didn't go close there to check on which faiths

23 were there.

24 JUDGE CLARK: Perhaps another witness, Doctor, would be able to

25 help us on that. But is there any significance in the Muslim faith to a

Page 7771

1 tablet being T-shaped? Does that have any significance as opposed to a

2 cross, indicating the tablet that you saw that was T-shaped with "NN" on

3 it? Would that be the shape of a marker of a Muslim deceased?

4 A. No.

5 JUDGE CLARK: Has no significance.

6 A. No, it doesn't.

7 JUDGE CLARK: The photographs, Doctor, for me anyway, have

8 indicated more than words can, the nature of the horrific injuries

9 sustained by this person before death. The photographs indicate that the

10 fractures were comminuted, fragmented, with total displacement of bone.

11 If a person living, Doctor, had suffered those injuries, the fracture to

12 the collar-bone, the scapula, which is in pieces that you showed us, and

13 the two injuries to the fibula -- I can't see the other injuries -- would

14 that person have been capable of walking?

15 A. All these facts which we found during the autopsy are the

16 so-called isolated fractures. They are severe bodily injuries, but they

17 cannot be linked to the direct cause of death. If you have a fracture of

18 a fibula or scapula, if you have a fracture of the pelvic bone, we can say

19 that overall, these were severe injuries which leads to the traumatic

20 shock, as we call it, and which, could, perhaps subsequently have led to

21 death. But you have a primary injury, which is the injury to the head,

22 which is life-threatening.

23 JUDGE CLARK: In the absence of the injury to the head, do I

24 understand you to say that those injuries could have been led to what is

25 called medically "shock"?

Page 7772

1 A. Of course.

2 JUDGE CLARK: Thank you. I just want to say something to you,

3 Doctor, something I read last night in another witness statement which

4 describes Mr. Harmandic alive as a well-built and very heavy man. Is

5 there anything in bone size that gives anybody an indication that somebody

6 is either a light or a heavy person after death when you are dealing with

7 a skeleton?

8 A. You could say something about the height based on the bones, but

9 as far as the muscles are concerned and the way the muscles were built,

10 that's something different. Today, for instance, you have a lot of people

11 who are built -- who have a muscular build. They take certain substances

12 to increase their muscle mass. That's something else. But as far as the

13 bones are concerned, in this case, it is clear that we are -- we have here

14 a heavy-built man.

15 JUDGE CLARK: And then one last question arising out of the

16 questions that Mr. Meek posed to you in relation to the projectile that

17 you described yesterday, is that final photograph in the book of

18 photographs, photograph 15, is that taken among the putrefied body

19 material that you described previously? In other words, if you can

20 recall, is that projectile photographed in situ?

21 A. Photograph 15 was taken before the projectile was removed from the

22 body, that is, the remains of the matter. That is number 15. And

23 number 14 is the photograph taken whilst the projectile was already on the

24 table.

25 JUDGE CLARK: Thank you very much indeed, Doctor.

Page 7773

1 JUDGE LIU: Judge Diarra.

2 JUDGE DIARRA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. A number

3 of questions I had have been answered already.

4 However, Doctor, I would like to ask you the following: We had a

5 witness here who talked about Nenad Harmandic. He said that he saw him,

6 that he was bloody, had blood all over the body after having been beaten

7 up. And then he saw him, he was black and blue. And then the next day or

8 the day afterwards, his body -- he had -- the volume of his body had

9 increased. Was this the sign of an infection, of gangrene coming before

10 death, and can it have an impact on the speed of decomposition of the body

11 and on skeletonisation?

12 A. As far as the haematomas are concerned, which was part of your

13 question, these are the haematomas which are caused because the damage

14 sustained. And the blood pours out into the surrounding tissue. And it

15 filters out, which leads to the swelling and these particular colouration,

16 blue. This is why we refer to people who have sustained such injuries,

17 that they are black and blue.

18 It -- as it disappears, the colour changes from dark -- black and

19 blue to purple to greenish to yellowish. And this is hat leads to the

20 muscles being swollen. And obviously the skin will also have changed its

21 colour to, as I put it, purple or reddish or greenish. However, it will

22 not have much effect on the decomposition of the body. It may, if it

23 was -- if there was a contagious disease present in the body previously,

24 and then it may accelerate the decomposition. But as far as these

25 injuries are concerned, if the person had sustained them, this will not

Page 7774

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Page 7775

1 affect the decomposition.

2 JUDGE DIARRA: [Interpretation] And the -- so the injuries do not

3 have the same impact as a contagious disease?

4 A. No.

5 JUDGE DIARRA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. I have

6 another question. The Prosecutor asked you whether the autopsy enabled

7 you to state that this was the body of Nenad Harmandic. You answered that

8 you were not able to answer that question. Later on, you said that having

9 conducted the autopsy according to the rules, you believe that it is

10 indeed the body of Nenad Harmandic.

11 I am the only one to listen to your answers in French, so I got

12 two different answers, and therefore I'm a bit confused. So at this

13 stage, I do not know whether you're telling us that the body that has been

14 examined, number 05, body number 05, I do not know whether you are telling

15 us that it's Nenad Harmandic's body or not. I don't know if you tell us

16 that it's his body or whether you don't know. So I would like to come out

17 of this room with a clear idea about that. Could you please help me?

18 A. The question is: What is the task of the forensic scientist? It

19 is to provide as much information to the family, that is, to also receive

20 as much information from the family about the person that is being sought.

21 And what I have found on the basis of the external and internal

22 examination will then be collated with what the family has provided as

23 information. And you see, not all elements need to dovetail. But if the

24 family says, you see, the age, this and that fits, then I say, this could

25 be a fit because there is a number of parameters there that correspond to

Page 7776

1 the person that you're looking for.

2 But can I say with certainty, this is that body? I cannot do

3 that. I cannot. And the reason is my task is not that is -- this is

4 such and such a person. You can claim it.

5 JUDGE DIARRA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Doctor.

6 JUDGE LIU: Any questions out of the Judge's questions?

7 Yes, Mr. Stringer.

8 MR. STRINGER: Just one last question.

9 Q. Dr. Zujo, I think it would be useful to try to consider your last

10 statement in light of the conclusion which is found in your report. The

11 conclusion states: "After the forensic medical examination with autopsy,

12 and the exhibition" -- and maybe that's the key part -- "and the

13 exhibition and identification of the body, clothing, personal belongings,

14 and objects by the family (Son, Predrag), this male body was identified as

15 the body of Nenad Harmandic, son of Salko, born in 1947."

16 Now, does that remain your conclusion today, as indicated in your

17 report?

18 A. Yes.

19 MR. STRINGER: Nothing further, Mr. President.

20 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Par.

21 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I have two or

22 three questions

23 Further cross-examination by Mr. Par:

24 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Zujo, there were some questions directed to

25 you from the Trial Chamber whether this was a crime investigation or

Page 7777

1 something else. My question to you is: Had it been a crime

2 investigation, just a regular investigation that you have in the case of

3 murder, would you have given your opinion without having conducted a DNA

4 analysis when you were to -- if you were to have conducted a regular crime

5 investigation?

6 A. Yesterday, I said that a medical expert completes his task if

7 identification has taken place. So it was not necessary for us to take

8 samples from -- of bones for DNA analysis.

9 Q. I'll try one more time. Mr. Zujo, you work as an expert in murder

10 cases. And we have a case here. It's the case of Mr. Harmandic. And for

11 our intents and purposes, this is a murder case. You are the expert who

12 is called to testify about the identity of this person, just as you would

13 do in Bosnia and Herzegovina. I'm interested in what the procedure would

14 be in Bosnia and Herzegovina. Is it true that when an expert -- a

15 forensic expert such as you are is engaged for -- in an investigation of

16 the murder case, the investigative magistrate gives the expert a task, and

17 this task is set out very clearly, what is asked of the expert to do. And

18 the expert follows this order and provides the answer to this

19 investigating magistrate.

20 The question is this: Was there such an order? Was there such a

21 procedure in regard of the investigation of the identity of Mr. Harmandic,

22 or was another procedure used?

23 A. As far as the procedure itself is concerned, in the case of Nenad

24 Harmandic, it was the same procedure as for all the other bodies. We had

25 nothing special, because we had an anonymous body until the work was done.

Page 7778

1 It was filed as a John Doe. And as far as the orders are concerned, I

2 could do nothing without the court order. When I went to the Liska,

3 I did not know who I was going to work on. I was just told that there

4 would be an exhumation.

5 Q. Fine. I understood you. So it wasn't an isolated criminal case

6 for which a sort of regular expertise was to have been conducted?

7 A. No.

8 Q. The question is: Had it been that way, had it been a case -- just

9 a classic murder case, would you have conducted a DNA analysis? Would you

10 have done it?

11 A. Had the identification not been done, I would have had to carry

12 out a DNA analysis. But because an identification was made, I did not do

13 it.

14 Q. I'll try to simplify it even more --

15 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Par, first I think the question is kind of

16 speculation. Secondly, the DNA test was not mentioned by Judge Clark's

17 question. I hope you could limit your questions within the scope of the

18 questions asked by the Judge Clark.

19 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I understand what you're

20 saying. What I'm trying to do -- I'm not trying to speculate here. I'm

21 trying to get the witness to give us a description of the regular

22 procedure employed in these cases and whether this procedure was done on

23 the basis of a crime investigation, a murder investigation, or something

24 else.

25 JUDGE CLARK: [Interpretation] Can I assist you, Mr. Par. DNA is a

Page 7779

1 very expensive procedure, and I don't think in any jurisdiction is it

2 normally carried out when there has been an identification. Similarly in

3 rape cases, if the accused admits to sexual intercourse, then there's no

4 point in carrying out DNA. DNA is only if there is a dispute about

5 identity. So if you put the question very simply to this Doctor, say is

6 it the practice to carry out DNA when there has been an identification of

7 the body?

8 MR. PAR: [Interpretation]

9 Q. You heard the question of Judge Clark. Will you please answer it

10 with -- but let me just interject one comment here. Identification that

11 was only made by family members.

12 A. As far as the DNA samples are concerned, it's a major procedure.

13 If we were to take samples for DNA analysis from all the bodies -- well,

14 let's say in the Visoko municipal cemetery where we have seven to eight

15 hundred bodies who have been identified, but they cannot be reburied until

16 the DNA results have been received, that is, whether they are positive or

17 negative -- had we waited for all these analyses to be completed, we

18 couldn't have conduct reburials. So if the next of kin confirms or

19 identifies bodies. And this is a principal throughout Bosnia-Herzegovina.

20 It is not just in our own institute. It is nation-wide.

21 Q. I understand. But I put to you this: If it had not been a

22 regular case, but if the exhumation was done in order to look for missing

23 persons, such exhumations can only be done on the orders of the

24 investigating Judge in the presence of the police. I say to you that such

25 a procedure cannot be done without the presence of the police, the law

Page 7780

1 enforcement, and the crime technicians and the Judge; is that correct?

2 A. Yes. But when I go in the field, I don't know what case I'm

3 dealing with. It is a matter of the Court. My task is a medical one. I

4 need to perform an exhumation. I need to perform an autopsy, and I need

5 to stand by what I have found. And it is a matter of the Court to do its

6 job.

7 Q. I absolutely understand your answer. But what I'm saying is that

8 the court is a proper forum through which this is carried out. And from

9 the documents that we have - I think it's in Tab D or C - this is for the

10 record of the court for which you performed your expertise. And it could

11 be a case against X or Y person, that it is a case of war crimes, and this

12 is part of the investigation with the objective of exhuming a mass grave

13 or a cemetery to identify who is there so that things may be cleared up.

14 And perhaps at some point, this will also be a matter of some criminal

15 proceedings. But this is not any -- case of any specific investigation.

16 In other words, this was done in a framework of some general

17 investigation.

18 A. Listen, I really cannot answer that. Only an investigating judge

19 who has conducted this investigation can answer this question. I am a

20 forensic scientist, and I can only do my job, and it is a matter for the

21 courts.

22 Q. Very well. Do you think that DNA analysis would have resolved all

23 the problems that we have been dealing with in the last two days and that

24 we have been asking you as Defence? So do you say that a DNA analysis

25 would have definitively resolved this issue?

Page 7781

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Page 7782

1 A. As far as the DNA analysis is concerned -- you cannot quite say

2 this 100 percent, but I have -- my experience is -- in Sarajevo, we had a

3 case -- we had certain items of clothing, and we had all the indications

4 that this was a person that we were looking for. And the answer that we

5 got back was negative. So it may or may not be. The DNA is the best

6 method we have. But is it foolproof? I don't know that.

7 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] I have no further questions, and I thank

8 you.

9 JUDGE LIU: Thank you, Witness, for coming here to help us.

10 Yes, Mr. Meek. Do you have any questions?

11 MR. MEEK: Your Honour, Mr. President, I only have one or two

12 questions out of Judge Clark's questions, and I'm in your hands whether

13 you want to do it right now or at 11.30.

14 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Stringer.

15 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, the next witness will be asking for

16 voice distortion, which would require a break in order to set up the

17 equipment. So our request would be to finish this witness now so that the

18 next witness might be arranged before the morning break.

19 JUDGE LIU: This is also the Chamber's arrangements. So we might

20 sit a little longer for this sitting. You may ask your question, please.

21 MR. MEEK: Thank you, Mr. President.

22 Further cross-examination by Mr. Meek:

23 Q. Doctor, you just answered Judge Clark's question regarding

24 photograph 15 in Exhibit 843, which is a picture of the projectile taken

25 before it was removed from the body. Do you recall that question and

Page 7783

1 answer, Doctor?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. I'm asking you to look back briefly to picture 7, two pages before

4 that. Now, yesterday, you indicated to Judge Clark's questions that you

5 had really no recollection - and you said this very candidly - no

6 recollection whatsoever of this bullet, particular bullet. So my question

7 to you now: Is there any possibility for you to point out to this Trial

8 Chamber in photograph 7 the location that the projectile in photograph 15,

9 where that was located, if you know?

10 A. On photograph number 15, you -- the projectile is discernible in

11 the vicinity of the bone. Here is the bone. On the right-hand side, you

12 have the long bone. So it's close to the bone.

13 Q. So on picture 7, do you have any independent recollection today of

14 the approximate location of where photograph 15 was taken, or that

15 projectile was located in photograph 7? That's my question.

16 A. I didn't quite understand the question. Sorry.

17 Q. Okay. I'll try again, Doctor. Photograph 15 is a picture of the

18 projectile before it was removed from the body substance or whatever was

19 left. Photograph 7 is a picture of the body laid out, the skeletal

20 remains laid out on the autopsy table.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Can you tell us today, do you have any independent recollection of

23 the approximate location in photograph 7 of where this projectile, the

24 close-up picture in photograph 15, was located, since yesterday you

25 candidly answered to Judge Clark you couldn't even remember the bullet

Page 7784

1 because you have done so many autopsies, understandably?

2 A. I don't know that that's what I said, that I didn't remember the

3 bullet. But I stick to the autopsy report which says that we had found a

4 projectile. I said yesterday it was a projectile, but I don't remember

5 the details, where it was turned over to the police team or something.

6 But on photograph number 7, I explained a moment ago that the corpse, once

7 the body bag was opened, was photographed. And it is normal that you

8 don't see the projectile on that photograph because that was the first

9 stage before we started with the autopsy, with the dissection.

10 Q. Doctor, I understand that perfectly clear. My question is: Can

11 you enlighten me, if at all - and if you can't, please just say so -

12 approximately where was the projectile found in photograph 7? Was it up

13 here on the right, towards the head? Was it down here -- if you know. If

14 you don't know, just say so.

15 A. I can't give you a reply to that question based on this

16 photograph.

17 MR. MEEK: Doctor, thank you very much.

18 JUDGE LIU: Thank you, Witness, for coming to help us. I myself

19 benefit a lot from your testimony. We all wish you a pleasant journey

20 back home. The usher will show you out of the room.

21 [Witness withdrew]

22 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Stringer, at this stage, are there any documents

23 you are going to tender into the evidence?

24 MR. STRINGER: Yes, Mr. President. It's our understanding that

25 the 94 bis statement of Dr. Zujo, which was filed last October 19th,

Page 7785

1 marked as -- which is now marked as Exhibit 877.1, has already been

2 admitted into evidence pursuant the to Trial Chamber's decision. If

3 that's not the case, then we would certainly tender the 94 bis statement

4 at this time, together with all of the attachments. However, perhaps in

5 light of the decision taken yesterday, those exhibits relating to -- I'm

6 not sure, frankly, how the Trial Chamber wants to handle the Krilic

7 autopsy report. If the decision admitting the report stands, then the

8 reports related to Krilic are still in evidence. And I think the Trial

9 Chamber can decide whether it wants to accept those or not. But certainly

10 with respect to the Harmandic and Colakovic reports, as well as Dr. Zujo's

11 own statement, we would tender that if it's not already admitted.

12 We can withdraw the Krilic, to simplify things.

13 JUDGE LIU: How about those photographs listed in the Exhibits 843

14 and 844.

15 MR. STRINGER: Yes, Mr. President. We tender those exhibits at

16 this time also.

17 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. Well, the Trial Chamber believes

18 that we made a decision on the 27th November, 2001, concerning with the

19 statement of that expert pursuant to the Rule 94 bis. But we also believe

20 that this decision has been revoked by the fact that at the request of the

21 Defence counsel and Judge Clark, we called this witness to testify. And

22 there is extensive cross-examinations to this witness. So those documents

23 have to be retendered and readmitted at this stage.

24 Any objections, Mr. Par?

25 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have to object to this

Page 7786

1 proposal because we contest that this particular autopsy identified

2 Mr. Harmandic. We do not believe this kind of material can serve to prove

3 that the body in question belonged to Mr. Harmandic.

4 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Meek?

5 MR. MEEK: Your Honour, it's my understanding -- and I want for

6 the record to be clear so that I understand it -- the Krilic information

7 in Exhibit P877.1 will either be withdrawn or there will be a new number

8 on that document; is that correct, Mr. President?

9 JUDGE LIU: I believe they have been withdrawn by the Prosecutor.

10 MR. MEEK: Mr. President, Your Honours, we have no objection to

11 the photographs listed in P843 and 844, and we would join in the objection

12 made by Mr. Par.

13 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. At this moment -- yes, Mr. Par?

14 Wait a minute. At this moment, I think the Trial Chamber is in a the

15 position to make a decision on the admission of those documents. Because

16 those documents have already been admitted essentially in the decision

17 made by this Trial Chamber on the 27th of November, 2001. We understand

18 that there are a series of objections from the Defence counsel and it is

19 the subject matter of the dispute in this very case. We noticed that.

20 But anyway, at the request of the Defence counsel, we called this

21 witness, and both parties asked questions to this witness. It is so

22 extensive that we believe that all those documents have the probative

23 value to this case. So we decided those documents have been admitted as

24 the evidence.

25 Yes, Mr. Par.

Page 7787

1 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Mr. President, on behalf of our Defence

2 team, I should also like to tender the report and finding of Dr. Skavic,

3 which was given a provisional number D2/25, and which we used during the

4 cross-examination of this witness.

5 Yesterday, you ordered me -- you suggested, Mr. President, that if

6 I want to tender this document, I have to attach the accompanying

7 correspondence, so I'm tendering the letter we addressed to Dr. Skavic,

8 which regrettably I did not have enough time to have translated into

9 English. And perhaps I can deal with it in the nearest future.

10 But before we get the translation, I wish to say that in this

11 letter, we asked Dr. Skavic to give his opinion on the findings of

12 Dr. Dobraca. And we provided him with the statements given by the wife

13 and the son of the deceased and this previous witness, Mr. Ajanic, whom we

14 had yesterday. So Dr. Skavic had these three witness statements and the

15 expert report of Dr. Dobraca. And he gave us this reply, the report dated

16 19th October, 2001.

17 My task is now to tender this. I can do it either now, without

18 the translation, or do it on Monday, as the Chamber decides.

19 JUDGE LIU: Any objections, Mr. Stringer?

20 MR. STRINGER: Yes, Mr. President. We object. It's our --

21 Prosecution submits that the letter opinion of Dr. Skavic is essentially

22 in the nature of expert testimony, which in this Tribunal is governed by

23 Rule 94 bis. That is to say, that expert testimony can be admitted

24 without the expert actually having to come testify, only if certain

25 conditions found in Rule 94 bis are met. The full statement should be

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Page 7789

1 disclosed to the opposing party as early as possible, and shall be filed

2 not less than 21 days prior to the date on which the expert is expected to

3 testify.

4 Now, this letter was never provided to the Prosecution, the

5 opposing party, until the date essentially that the Defence sought to

6 offer it into evidence, or at least use it. The Prosecution --

7 JUDGE LIU: What is that date?

8 MR. STRINGER: The date of the letter --

9 JUDGE LIU: You received it.

10 MR. STRINGER: We received it yesterday. We had never seen this

11 before yesterday. We have no opportunity to cross-examine the Defence

12 expert, and I didn't object yesterday, Mr. President. I want to be clear,

13 because we do make a distinction. I think counsel is within his rights to

14 consult an expert, to get information in order to assist him in

15 cross-examining the Prosecution expert. And we didn't object to the use

16 of the letter yesterday as an aid or as a means by which counsel could

17 cross-examine the Prosecution expert. But it's our submission that the

18 Defence is now going beyond that and is seeking to tender their own expert

19 testimony without having complied with the terms of Rule 94 bis, and it's

20 on that basis we object.

21 JUDGE LIU: What's your response, Mr. Par?

22 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] My response would be that we are

23 tendering this to demonstrate the tools we have used in cross-examination.

24 We do not intend to call Mr. Skavic in our case to counter the testimony

25 given by expert Witness Zujo. But we are tendering this in order to show

Page 7790

1 what Mr. Zujo referred to, and we intend to fulfill all our obligations we

2 have to the Office of the Prosecutor regarding expert witnesses and expert

3 testimony.

4 JUDGE LIU: Well, at this stage, we have to reserve our right to

5 make the decision on this particular matter. And we request the Defence

6 counsel to submit the English translation of the letter to this Trial

7 Chamber as a whole set. And we will make the decisions in this direction.

8 Mr. Stringer, you mentioned that there is some protective measures

9 concerning with the next witness. Would you please inform the Court what

10 are they?

11 MR. STRINGER: The witness has requested pseudonym, face

12 distortion, and also voice distortion.

13 JUDGE LIU: I guess there are no objections from Defence counsel?

14 So it's granted. We'll have those facilities arranged during the break.

15 MR. STRINGER: Thank you, Mr. President.

16 JUDGE LIU: We are sorry for the late closure of this sitting. I

17 apologise to the interpreters and court reporters and other technical

18 supporters behind this courtroom. And we will resume at 10 minutes

19 to 12.00.

20 --- Recess taken at 11.18 a.m.

21 --- Upon commencing at 11.53 a.m.

22 JUDGE LIU: During the break, we looked into the Rule 94 bis

23 concerning with this admission of the expert statement. The Rule 94 bis

24 (c) said that if the opposing party accepts the statement of the expert

25 witness, the statement may be admitted into evidence by the Trial Chamber

Page 7791

1 without calling the witness to testify in person.

2 In this case, we hear the objections from the Prosecution side, so

3 at this moment, we'll give the statement of Dr. Skavic an ID number so

4 that it could not be lost. And later on, during your Defence case, you

5 have the full right to call that witness to this Trial Chamber, and the

6 Prosecutor could have an opportunity to cross-examine that witness. It is

7 so decided.

8 Yes, Mr. Par.

9 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Excuse me, Your Honour, I would like to

10 correct an error in the transcript relating precisely to this issue.

11 During the break, I was informed by the interpreter that the record on

12 page 37 in line 12, the record misstates that we do not intend to call

13 Dr. Skavic, whereas I in fact said that we did in fact intend to call

14 him. And I want to point this out to the Trial Chamber and to the

15 Registry in order to have this error redressed. Thank you.

16 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

17 JUDGE CLARK: Could I ask a question before we go into the next

18 witness, and while we're still talking about the issue which is alive, the

19 identification of the body of Mr. Harmandic. Does the Prosecution intend,

20 or do you have any evidence that will assist us in establishing the

21 location of this burial place, where is it in relation to the Bulevar, to

22 Stela's headquarters, to where prisoners were held, et cetera? It just

23 would help us if we could know that.

24 MR. STRINGER: It's the Prosecution's intention, Judge Clark, to

25 lead evidence of that nature with an upcoming witness.

Page 7792

1 JUDGE CLARK: Thank you.

2 MR. STRINGER: And Mr. Scott reminds me, there's also deposition

3 testimony about that in the record which will be brought to the Trial

4 Chamber's attention later.

5 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Usher, would you please bring in the witness.

6 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, the next witness, I'm informed, is

7 being assigned pseudonym "ZZ". This witness will testify in reference to

8 paragraph 7, 10, and 11 of the indictment, the background section; also

9 superior authority of the accused Naletilic under paragraphs 14 and 16;

10 general allegations, 18 through 21. The Witness will testify in respect

11 of paragraphs 26 through 29, 31, 33, and 34, the persecution count. Also,

12 in respect of counts 2 through 8 regarding forced labour of detainees.

13 The witness will testify in reference to paragraphs 37 through 39. And

14 finally in respect of counts 9 through 12, the witness will testify in

15 reference to paragraphs 45 and 50.

16 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

17 MR. STRINGER: I can inform the Trial Chamber that we will be

18 asking the video -- the technical booth to play two short videotapes

19 during the course of this witness's testimony, one of which is footage

20 that the Trial Chamber saw previously of the Vranica building, only, as

21 you may recall, part of that in reference to a question from the Trial

22 Chamber, now a fuller version of that footage is being provided in

23 response to a request from the Trial Chamber, and with the audio and a

24 transcript of the audio will be distributed at that time.

25 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. That has been arranged already, right?

Page 7793

1 Thank you very much.

2 [The witness entered court]

3 JUDGE LIU: Good morning, Witness. Can you hear me?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can hear you.

5 JUDGE LIU: Would you please make the solemn declaration in

6 accordance with the paper the usher is showing to you.

7 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

8 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

9 WITNESS: WITNESS ZZ

10 [Witness answered through interpreter]

11 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. You may sit down, please.

12 Examined by Mr. Stringer:

13 Q. Witness, good morning. Can you hear me?

14 A. Yes, I can hear you.

15 Q. I can inform you that the Trial Chamber has granted your request

16 for protective measures. For the purpose of your testifying in these

17 proceedings, you are being given a pseudonym, pseudonym "ZZ", and I ask

18 you not to mention your name or give other information about yourself that

19 will identify you during the course of your testimony this morning. Also

20 the protective measures of facial distortion and voice distortion are also

21 in effect in order to protect your identity.

22 Now, before I start asking you questions, there's a piece of paper

23 that I want you to look at. On the piece of paper, you should find your

24 name, your real name, as well as your date of birth. Together with the

25 pseudonym "Witness ZZ." And I would ask you to look at the paper, without

Page 7794

1 saying your name, just inform the Trial Chamber whether the piece of paper

2 correctly identifies you.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Thank you.

5 A. That is correct.

6 Q. Witness, in May of 1993, were you a Bosnian Muslim living in the

7 city of Mostar in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

8 A. That is correct.

9 Q. And in February of 1993, did you join the army of

10 Bosnia-Herzegovina, and were you a member of the military police, of the

11 Armija?

12 A. Yes, I was.

13 Q. And were you stationed at the Vranica building headquarters in the

14 city of Mostar in -- particularly in West Mostar in May of 1993?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And I would ask you at this time if you could briefly inform the

17 Trial Chamber whether the Vranica building was attacked on the 9th of May,

18 1993, and how long you remained in the Vranica building after the attack

19 began.

20 A. On 9th of May, after the attack, we stayed in the Vranica building

21 for approximately 36 hours, and we were captured -- that is taken

22 prisoner -- on the 10th of May by the HVO soldiers.

23 Q. Prior to your being captured by the HVO soldiers, before you left

24 from the Vranica building, did you and some other members of the Armija

25 change out of your uniforms and into civilian clothes?

Page 7795

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Page 7796

1 A. Yes, we did.

2 Q. And could you tell us what happened, then, after you exited the

3 Vranica building with the other -- your other colleagues in the Armija?

4 A. When we came out, we were lined up in front of the school of

5 economics, and the elderly, the women and children, were separated onto

6 one side, and men ages 15 to 50 approximately were placed on the other

7 side. One part went to the Velez stadium near Bijele Brijeg, and a group

8 that was suspected to have been consisted of members of the ABiH was taken

9 in front of a ministry.

10 Q. And then were you one of the people who was taken to the area in

11 front of a ministry?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Could you tell us, briefly, then, what occurred while you were in

14 front of this ministry?

15 A. We were lined up in front of this ministry. We were surrounded by

16 a large number of the HVO soldiers and a number of men who were part of

17 Tuta's guards. And then Tuta came in. He said that we were supposed to

18 fight together, how we had betrayed the city, and so on. That's that.

19 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, at this time I would ask with the

20 assistance of the technical booth, if we could dim the lights a little bit

21 and play the videotape which has been marked as Exhibit P17.1. Before we

22 do that, I've given the registrar a transcript of the audio portion of the

23 tape for distribution at this time, which has been marked as P17.2.

24 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

25 MR. STRINGER:

Page 7797

1 Q. Witness, you're a protected witness, so the first time we look at

2 this videotape, I don't want you to say anything.

3 A. Very well.

4 MR. STRINGER: If we could just stop it for a moment, please. I

5 don't know that we've gotten copies yet into the translation --

6 interpretation booths, which is a failure on my part.

7 [Videotape played]

8 MR. STRINGER: I guess we are ready to roll the tape, please.

9 THE INTERPRETER: This first group of 12 proves how this conflict

10 was planned and conceived by Muslim and Serbian policy; namely, their

11 soldiers say in this manner, the intent has been to join the line Konjic,

12 Jablanica, Breznica, Stolac, Mostar, which would then be controlled by the

13 BH army. Today's operations successfully severed that chain. There were

14 about 70 extremists. They surrendered with the civilians. They changed

15 into civilian clothes, threw away their rifles in the hallways and

16 surrendered together with the civilians, the Croats that they had held as

17 hostages. They mistreated our people. Forced them to put out fires in

18 the hallways and such. The operation was successful, though. There were

19 injured and wounded but none on our side. There were none, not this time.

20 This commander spoke to another group of Muslims, the one that attempted

21 to conceal their treacherous travel by changing into civilian clothes.

22 Several months ago some of them had fought with the Croats against an

23 Serbian aggressor. The question remains on which side they were even then

24 [as interpreted].

25 Well, no one expected they would do it, that they would turn

Page 7798

1 against the Croats. The HVO soldiers say it is quite indicative that not

2 a single Serbian shell had fallen on the city in the past seven days.

3 MR. STRINGER: If we could go back to a portion of the videotape

4 in which a line of men wearing civilian clothes is shown, if you could

5 keep moving back from there. Okay. Stop, please.

6 Mr. President, could we go into private session, please, for just

7 a few moments.

8 JUDGE LIU: We'll go to the private session, please.

9 [Private session]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

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21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

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24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 7799

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9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [Open session]

16 MR. STRINGER:

17 Q. Witness, the location of the video footage of these men wearing

18 civilian clothes, can you tell us, if you know, the location where this

19 footage was taken?

20 A. This is in front of the ministry building.

21 Q. I think we can take the video off the screen now. And, Witness,

22 let me ask you whether, then, you said that you were at the ministry area.

23 Were you and others, then, taken to a different location?

24 A. Yes, they bussed us to the MUP station in Listica, which is

25 Siroki Brijeg.

Page 7800

1 Q. How long did you remain at the MUP station in Siroki Brijeg?

2 A. I don't know the exact dates, but it seemed something like between

3 two and three weeks.

4 Q. Are you able to recall approximately how many prisoners were in

5 your group that were held there at the MUP station?

6 A. There were between 50 and 60 of them.

7 Q. And could you describe for the Trial Chamber generally the

8 conditions of your detention at the MUP station during those two to three

9 weeks?

10 A. There were two small rooms, approximately 4 to 5 square metres,

11 and 25 to 30 men were held there.

12 Q. So are you saying there were 25 to 30 men in each of these two

13 small rooms?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Now, Mr. President, with your permission, we would like to show

16 the next piece of videotape which is marked as Exhibit Number 30. And as

17 that's playing, Witness, if you're able to recognise anything or make any

18 comments, please feel free to do so.

19 [Videotape played]

20 MR. STRINGER: I should ask, are we at the beginning of the

21 videotape? Did we start at the very beginning?

22 [Videotape played]

23 MR. STRINGER: If I can assist, I think we can stop right there

24 and begin to roll it.

25 [Videotape played]

Page 7801

1 MR. STRINGER:

2 Q. Witness, while we're looking at this, could you just tell us if

3 you recognise this place, and if so, what is it?

4 A. Yes, this was the MUP station in Listica, or Siroki Brijeg,

5 apologise.

6 This is the staircase leading down to where the cells were.

7 This is one of the cells except these mattresses were not around

8 at that time.

9 Q. Is it your testimony that 25 to 30 men were in each of these

10 cells?

11 A. Yes, that is correct.

12 Yes, that's the other cell.

13 MR. STRINGER: Okay, thank you.

14 Mr. President, I would like to just very quickly show three

15 photographs to the witness. They are already in evidence. Exhibit 26.6,

16 26.7, and 26.8.

17 Q. Witness, could I just ask you to take a look at each of those

18 photographs and then to tell us if those are locations which you have just

19 identified in the videotape.

20 A. Yes, those were the locations. That's the place leading down to

21 the cells.

22 Q. And perhaps looking at the other two photographs, if you could

23 tell us, please, which of the cells you were kept in.

24 A. I was in both of them. At first, I was in this first one, and

25 then later on, they transferred me to this one here.

Page 7802

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Page 7803

1 Q. First you were in the cell that has the green -- the green

2 blanket, I see?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Witness, how did the prisoners sleep in these cells during the two

5 to three weeks that you were there?

6 A. We slept in such a way that we agreed that some would sleep and

7 others would stand up, and then we would take turns.

8 Q. When you arrived at this location in Siroki Brijeg, did you

9 encounter any other prisoners who were there before you?

10 A. Only one.

11 Q. Do you recall who that was?

12 A. If I recall correctly, it was -- he was a commander of Blagaj

13 Brigade, in the ABiH.

14 Q. Witness, during the two-to-three-week period that you were

15 detained at the MUP station, did you receive any beatings? And if so,

16 could you describe that to the Trial Chamber, please.

17 A. Yes, they beat me first when we had just arrived. A person

18 entered the room and just started beating us at random. And he hit me

19 with a butt of his pistol in the head. Several days later, another man

20 came who was taking us out of the cell one by one, and again, we were

21 being beaten.

22 Q. Do you recall the name of any of the people who beat you when you

23 were at the MUP station?

24 A. One was Romeo Blazevic, and the other one I heard being called by

25 others Cikota, but I don't know his name.

Page 7804

1 Q. Did you know either of those people from before the conflict had

2 started?

3 A. Yes, I had known Romeo from before.

4 Q. How did you know him, if you can say in what -- how did you know

5 him?

6 A. Well, I had heard of him, and I knew him by face. I knew how he

7 looked. I also heard that he was a petty criminal in Mostar.

8 Q. Now, during the time that you were detained at the MUP station,

9 were you and other prisoners taken to work at a swimming pool location in

10 the area?

11 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Meek.

12 MR. MEEK: Mr. President, Your Honours, I believe we've gone way

13 beyond background, and I am objecting now to leading and suggestive

14 questions. I didn't on the last one, but if it's going to continue I must

15 raise these objections to the leading and suggestive. Thank you.

16 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Stringer, it is a leading question.

17 MR. STRINGER: I agree, Your Honour. I'm trying to move a little

18 quicker and I'll rephrase the question.

19 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

20 MR. STRINGER:

21 Q. Witness, during the time that you were held in Siroki Brijeg in

22 the MUP station, were you taken out to perform labour?

23 A. Yes, I was taken out to some pool.

24 Q. Were you taken to any other locations or just to a pool?

25 A. While I was in Siroki Brijeg, we only worked at the pool.

Page 7805

1 MR. STRINGER: At this time, I'll ask the witness be shown two

2 photographs, Exhibit 26.9 and 26.10.

3 Perhaps we could put 26.9 on the ELMO.

4 Q. Witness, if you recognise anything shown in either of those

5 photographs, could you inform us and tell the Trial Chamber about that,

6 please.

7 A. That is the pool where we worked.

8 Q. Could you just -- could I ask you to take the pointer and to show

9 us specifically what area you're looking at.

10 A. This one here.

11 Q. Thank you.

12 And then in the next photograph, are you able to recognise that?

13 A. Yes, that is the pool.

14 Q. Witness, could I ask you to just quickly take a pen and put a

15 circle around the swimming pool which you've indicated in Exhibit 26.9.

16 A. [Marks]

17 Q. Thank you, Witness. Now, when you and others were working at this

18 location, were you under guard? Were there guards present?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Are you able to recall what unit these guards belonged to?

21 A. I think that they were part of the Tuta's guards.

22 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber, please, why you believe that they

23 were Tuta's guards, or why you associate them with Tuta?

24 A. Because there was a man who had worked with me who was in the same

25 unit, and he had recognised the man who, as I heard -- for whom we had

Page 7806

1 worked, his name was Jablanica. And I had also heard that he was a deputy

2 commander in Tuta's guards.

3 Q. During the time that you worked at the swimming pool, did you

4 observe any beatings of prisoners take place?

5 A. Yes. That man who used to be in the Tuta's guard before, he was

6 the one who was beaten.

7 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, could we briefly go into private

8 session.

9 JUDGE LIU: We'll go to the private session, please.

10 [Private session]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

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Page 7811

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7 [Open session]

8 MR. STRINGER:

9 Q. Witness, looking at those two photographs, are you able to

10 recognise anything about them? And if so, could you tell the Trial

11 Chamber, please.

12 A. Well, this is Heliodrom, the building where we were held. Some

13 more construction has been done since on it.

14 Q. Looking first at Exhibit 20.2, which is -- I believe it's on the

15 ELMO, Witness, I would ask if you can recognise the building where you

16 were held. If you could place a circle around that, please.

17 A. [Marks]

18 Q. And while you've got the pen in your hand, if you're also able to

19 do the same thing for the other photograph, Exhibit 20.11.

20 A. [Marks]

21 Q. Now, Witness, a couple moments ago you mentioned that you were

22 wounded on the 16th of August. So let me ask you some questions about the

23 period in between your arrival at the Heliodrom in June and the date of

24 your injury on the 16th of August. During that period, did you perform

25 any labour? Were you required to perform labour? And if so, could you

Page 7812

1 inform the Trial Chamber of the locations in which you performed labour.

2 A. First, the first few days of our stay there, we worked only in the

3 area surrounding the Heliodrom. We did the cleaning, dug trenches, made

4 bunkers, and so on and so forth. And later, a couple of weeks later, they

5 took us to the town of Mostar itself where we worked mostly on the front

6 lines, dug trenches, constructed bunkers, et cetera.

7 Q. Do you recall the names of the places in Mostar, in the town of

8 Mostar, in which you performed labour?

9 A. Well, those were Podhum, the Avenija itself, the primary school,

10 the high school, the Santic Street.

11 Q. When you were wounded on the 16th of April -- excuse me, 16th of

12 August, where did that take place?

13 A. That was in Santic Street.

14 Q. Could you tell the Trial Chamber, please, how you were wounded and

15 the conditions there on Santiceva Street at that time and generally when

16 you were working in that location?

17 A. Well, while we were working there, it was always possible for

18 shooting to start. We were making trenches and protection walls made of

19 sandbags. And one day, we were working making a bunker. I was making

20 the roof, putting a plank on the top of the bunker. And at that moment, I

21 was wounded.

22 Q. Were detainees on Santiceva Street ever used as human shields?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Did that happen to you?

25 A. Yes, it did.

Page 7813

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Page 7814

1 Q. Could you describe for the Trial Chamber, please, the manner in

2 which you were used as a human shield?

3 A. We were lined up in front of the line, and they shot from behind

4 our backs at the members of the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

5 Q. How far away was the -- were the members of the army of

6 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

7 A. Well, approximately 5 or 6 metres was the distance.

8 Q. Did the members of the Armija return fire on that occasion?

9 A. No. For the most part, no.

10 Q. Now, coming back to your injury on the 16th of August, were there

11 other prisoners who were also wounded on that occasion?

12 A. Yes, another young man was wounded at the same time as I was.

13 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, at this time I have three documents

14 to show the witness. Two of them are new exhibits, and we have those

15 ready for distribution. Those are Exhibits P565.1 and Exhibit P566.1.

16 And in addition, we would ask the witness be shown Exhibit 774, which has

17 already been tendered into evidence.

18 And I think that in order to speed things along, and also to

19 continue to protect the identity of the witness, perhaps we can all work

20 with the document without placing it on the ELMO.

21 Q. Witness, now, do you have a document in front of you that has been

22 marked -- I'll just wait a minute until the copies have been distributed.

23 Okay, Witness, now, I have just one question referring first to

24 Exhibit 565.1, which is dated the 16th of August, 1993. If you turn to

25 the first page, the English translation version, you'll see the -- it's

Page 7815

1 the document I think that you just... Yeah. The exhibit number is on the

2 very first page, and then the second page will be the original language

3 B/C/S version. So if I could ask you to turn to that, and is this a

4 document that's dated the 16th of August, 1993?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And do you see your name appearing on that document?

7 A. Yes, I do.

8 Q. Okay, thank you. Moving next to Exhibit P566.1, is this document

9 dated the 19th of August, 1993?

10 A. Yes, it is.

11 Q. And do you see your name on that document as well?

12 A. I do.

13 Q. Now, moving, finally, to the third exhibit, which is Exhibit 774,

14 which is the one on your right -- yes, that's it. If I could ask you to

15 go through that document, turning to Item Number 94, please. The document

16 consists of a number of numbered items, and if you could go to Number 94.

17 A. I found it.

18 Q. Do you see your name on that document as well?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Do these three documents, Witness, appear to relate to the

21 wounding that you testified about on the 16th of August, 1993?

22 A. I think so, yes.

23 Q. Now, Witness, if I could just ask you to then next to Item

24 Number 122, which I believe contains a reference to the name of Neno

25 Harmandic. Do you see that?

Page 7816

1 A. Yes, I can see it.

2 Q. Does that name mean anything to you, "Harmandic"?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Okay, thank you, Witness. You can put those documents aside now.

5 I have just a few remaining questions.

6 You've testified already about having seen Mr. Naletilic in Siroki

7 Brijeg. Did you ever see this person on any other occasions?

8 A. Yes, at the Heliodrom.

9 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber, please, approximately when that

10 happened and describe the location and the other circumstances of that

11 occasion when you saw him in the Heliodrom.

12 A. Well, I don't know the exact date, but it was in the first weeks

13 of our stay at the Heliodrom. Mr. Naletilic arrived with his bodyguards

14 and entered the building of the prison.

15 Q. Is the building that you've just referred to, is it shown anywhere

16 on either of the two photographs which you've already marked from the

17 Heliodrom?

18 A. Yeah, I made a circle around them.

19 Q. So then are you referring to the same building in which you were

20 held during the time that you were at the Heliodrom?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Where were you when you saw Mr. Naletilic?

23 A. In the room.

24 Q. Was he inside the building, was he inside the room, or did you see

25 him through a window?

Page 7817

1 A. No, I saw Mr. Naletilic only through the window. I only saw him

2 entering the building, nothing more.

3 Q. Witness, during the time that you were working on the frontline

4 positions in Mostar, did you encounter any members of the Croatian army,

5 that is, the HV?

6 A. I cannot say for sure, but I think I did.

7 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber, please, why you think so?

8 A. Because they were talking in a dialect which is not typical of

9 Mostar or the surrounding area. Some of them had a Dalmatian accent

10 actually.

11 Q. Witness, it is my understanding --

12 MR. STRINGER: If I may be permitted, Mr. President, I just have a

13 couple more questions which relate to the remainder of the witness's time

14 before he was released.

15 Q. Witness, it's my understanding that after you were wounded, you

16 were taken, then, to a hospital in West Mostar, and that you remained

17 there until approximately mid-September of 1993?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And that from the hospital, you were returned to the Heliodrom

20 complex where you remained for another 10 to 14 days?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And that after that 10 to 14 days, you returned to the hospital,

23 and that you remained there until shortly before the time you were

24 released in March of 1994. Is that correct?

25 A. It is.

Page 7818

1 Q. And that you were able to remain in the hospital for that period

2 of time because of the assistance of others who helped to sort of hide you

3 in the hospital. Is that correct?

4 A. Yes, that's correct.

5 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, I have no further questions.

6 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. I think we'll break here.

7 Mr. Usher, would you bring the witness out of the room after

8 pulling down the blinds.

9 [Witness stands down]

10 JUDGE LIU: Well, we'll adjourn until 9.30 Monday morning.

11 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

12 12.58 p.m., to be reconvened on

13 Monday, the 14th day of January, 2002,

14 at 9.30 a.m.

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