Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 10872

1 Monday, 6 May 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.28 p.m.

5 JUDGE LIU: Call the case, please, Madam Registrar.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case number

7 IT-98-34-T, the Prosecutor versus Naletilic and Martinovic.

8 JUDGE LIU: Well, before we start, I think there are two issues

9 that we have to deal with. Yes, Mr. Krsnik?

10 THE INTERPRETER: Counsel's microphone is off.

11 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] [No interpretation]

12 JUDGE LIU: Can you try it again?

13 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] [No interpretation]

14 JUDGE LIU: I see.

15 [Technical difficulty]

16 THE REGISTRAR: One, two.

17 JUDGE LIU: So it seems to me that it is working right now.

18 Before we start, there are two issues that we have to deal with.

19 The first matter is the expedition of the trial. In the last six weeks,

20 we only have five witnesses, and the last witness took about two weeks for

21 his testimony, while Mr. Krsnik promised me that the direct examination

22 could last for six hours. So in this case, we are far behind schedule so

23 we have to make up the time we lost during the last week, which means that

24 we have to reduce the time for each witness in the future. For the next

25 witness, I understand that Defence counsel asked for four and a half hours

Page 10873

1 for the direct examination. I hope it could finish the direct examination

2 today, which is more than three hours.

3 The second issue is about the closed session the Defence counsel

4 asked. On this issue could I give the floor to Mr. Krsnik?

5 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, good afternoon, Your

6 Honours, and thank you. I believe we have provided our reasoning in a

7 motion that we already submitted and I can repeat only in two sentences

8 what I have to say, but can we go into private session for that, please.

9 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we will go to private session, please.

10 [Private session]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 10874

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13 Pages 10874-10881 redacted private session

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 10882

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [Open session]

Page 10883

1 [The witness entered court]

2 JUDGE LIU: Good afternoon, Witness. Can you hear me? Good

3 afternoon, Witness, can you hear me?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

5 JUDGE LIU: Would you please make the solemn declaration, please?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

7 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

8 WITNESS: WITNESS ND

9 [Witness answered through interpreter]

10 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. You may sit down, please.

11 Yes, Mr. Krsnik.

12 Examined by Mr. Krsnik:

13 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, let me just clarify some things for

14 you. First of all, you will get a piece of paper with your name on it.

15 Please do not read it out loud just confirm whether it is indeed your

16 name?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. First of all, I would like to inform you about certain rules that

19 we have here. First of all, in light of the protective measures that have

20 been granted to you, please do not start speaking before you see the red

21 light go on. When it goes off, then you can start speaking. I also have

22 to warn you to speak slowly because of our interpreters, because we both

23 speak the same language and by the very fact that I have to switch off my

24 microphone before you can start talking, things will go slower and it will

25 be easier for our interpreters.

Page 10884

1 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I don't know if we are

2 in private session, but I would like to start with my examination.

3 JUDGE LIU: We'll go to the private session, please.

4 [Private session]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 10885

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13 Page 10885 redacted private session

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 10886

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13 Page 10886 redacted private session

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 10887

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 10888

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [Open session]

20 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Sir, could you please tell the Trial Chamber what was the ethnic

22 composition of the city of Mostar and of the whole municipality of

23 Mostar?

24 A. In the city of Mostar, according to the pre-war census, there

25 were -- there were about 1 per cent, the Muslim population had a 1 percent

Page 10889

1 majority, and if we take the whole of the municipality, I think that the

2 Croats had a majority of about 0.7 or 0.8 per cent. I think that there

3 were about 17 per cent of Serbs and the rest claimed, declared themselves

4 as Yugoslavs.

5 Q. Can you please explain to the Trial Chamber how did this -- how

6 did the results of the elections come about?

7 A. The distribution of seats was the result of the fact that most of

8 the Muslim votes went to the leftist parties, the reformists and the

9 Social Democratic Party, whereas about -- the SDA got enough votes to get

10 19 seats out of 100, and an important thing, our coalition partners, at

11 the time, the HDZ and the SDS, had the general support of their voters.

12 Q. Could you please explain -- tell the Trial Chamber who was the

13 chairman of the Reformist Party in Bosnia-Herzegovina at the time?

14 A. I believe that Mr. Markovic was the head of the party in

15 Yugoslavia and that Nenad Kecmanovic as far as I can remember, was the

16 head of the party for Bosnia and Herzegovina.

17 Q. Who was Mr. Ante Markovic?

18 A. Ante Markovic used to be the President of the government of the

19 Socialist Republic of Croatia. He was a respectable, an eminent economist

20 from Zagreb and a businessman. He worked for the contract company for a

21 long time. He was a manager there.

22 Q. And when he established the Reformist Party, what function did he

23 have at the time and what was his ethnic background?

24 A. As far as I can remember, he was the President, the chairman of

25 the Reformist Party. I think that he declared himself as a Yugoslav.

Page 10890

1 Q. My mistake. What was his function in Yugoslavia? There was a

2 misunderstanding.

3 A. He was the Prime Minister of Yugoslavia.

4 Q. Let's go on. I asked these questions just to clarify the

5 situation for the Trial Chamber. They don't have all these facts at their

6 disposal and we just wanted to make these things clear to them. Why did

7 you join the SDA party and what was your function there? And please, if

8 you talk about -- if you will be mentioning your function, I believe that

9 we have to go into private session.

10 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We will go to the private session, please.

11 [Private session]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 10891

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13 Page 10891 redacted private session

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 10892

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13 Page 10892 redacted private session

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 10893

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [Open session]

9 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Witness, and the relations between the HDZ and SDA in Mostar, what

11 were the relations between them, at that time, 1991, 1992?

12 A. The SDA and the HDZ formed a coalition after the elections,

13 together with the SDS. In 1991, so for a year, the whole of 1991 and in

14 1992, the SDA and HDZ were coalition partners. The SDS, for well known

15 reasons, for setting up the autonomous region of Herzegovina in the autumn

16 of 1991, because of its destructive activities in Bosnia-Herzegovina, it

17 left the coalition but the HDZ and SDA maintained their coalition, both at

18 the national level and at the Herzegovina and Mostar levels.

19 Q. You mentioned the autonomous region of Herzegovina. I must say

20 this is the first time we hear about it here in the courtroom. The SAO

21 Herzegovina. Will you please explain, will you tell us what is it? What

22 does SAO Herzegovina mean? Will you explain that to the Court and what

23 happened when such autonomous regions were proclaimed SAO?

24 A. I have to say that it reminds me, that it brings back painful

25 memories because my birth place, [redacted]

Page 10894

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Please avoid mentioning your birth place or any information about

6 yourself. Secondly will you please explain what the acronym SAO means?

7 Will you just tell us what is this acronym and then our interpreters will

8 interpret it and we shall explain it?

9 A. SAO means self-managed autonomous region of Herzegovina, SAO.

10 Q. Self management, doesn't it mean Serb autonomous?

11 A. Sorry, sorry, yes, it meant Serb autonomous region of Herzegovina.

12 My apologies to the Court. Which proclaimed its executive

13 authority, executive power, in October, 1991, thus making it known that

14 those were Serb regions, which incorporated the municipalities of

15 Trebjina, Gacko, Bileca, Ljubinje, Nevesinje, and started issuing press

16 releases indicating that their boundary was along the left bank of the

17 Neretva, towards Capljina, and then on towards the Republic of Croatia.

18 Q. All these towns that you just told us, where are they, in what

19 part of Herzegovina or Bosnia-Herzegovina, if you will?

20 A. They are in east Herzegovina. That is -- yes, east Herzegovina,

21 the east part of Bosnia.

22 Q. And how did it affect the exercise of authority in Mostar and in

23 west Herzegovina, and how did the developments in the Republic of Croatia

24 affect life in Mostar, in Bosnia-Herzegovina and in the SDA?

25 A. Your Honours, this is a very important detail, because members of

Page 10895

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 10896

1 the Serb forces came to Mostar as "reservists," in inverted commas

2 [as interpreted]. They deployed their artillery around the village of

3 Ravno, directing those pieces towards the Republic of Croatia, towards

4 Slano, Ston and Dubrovnik. They deployed their reserve forces in Mostar

5 at the airport and behaved very arrogantly throughout the area, engaging

6 in, I can call it, Chetnik orgies, singing Chetnik songs and our

7 population was frightened, and the earliest refugees, Muslim and Croat,

8 began to arrive from the municipalities which I listed earlier, they began

9 to arrive in Mostar, Capljina, and on towards Croatia. And that is where

10 I'd say first disagreements started between actors in Croat and Bosnian

11 political side about as to who were these reservists, for the HDZ and SDA

12 in Mostar, these reservists were occupiers who pursued the same goal and

13 the same intent, namely to do the -- what they had already started doing

14 in Slavonia and what they had already started doing when they attacked

15 Dubrovnik on the 23rd of October, 1991.

16 JUDGE LIU: Well, Witness, I understand that you are eager to

17 testify, but if the Defence counsel need more information, he would ask

18 you the follow-up questions. Just answer his question in a very concise

19 way so that we could save time.

20 Yes, Mr. Krsnik.

21 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. We shall

22 comply with your instructions.

23 Q. Witness, tell us, who supported the JNA in that area at that time?

24 A. The reformist forces in Mostar and some officials in Stolac, the

25 SDA, Alija Izetbegovic, members of the SDP, Muhamed Dizdar, and this one,

Page 10897

1 oh, yes, Mirsad Muhmutcehajic. Those were the individuals and those were

2 the parties.

3 Q. Do you know when the HZ HB was formed and why, as far as you know?

4 A. The HZ HB was formed on the 18th of November, 1991, and its

5 principal purpose was the protection against the aggression and the

6 protection of the civilian way of life, because everything had ground to

7 a halt or at least was slowly grinding to a halt and the Sarajevo

8 authorities believed absolutely that they were neutral in those political

9 movements regarding Herzegovina, Ravno and so on.

10 Q. Wasn't one of the reasons the establishment of the Serb autonomous

11 region of Herzegovina?

12 A. The autonomous region of Herzegovina and reservists threatened

13 Muslim -- Croats and Muslims.

14 Q. The HZ HB, does it protect all the citizens or only some of them?

15 A. The HZ HB protected -- was the guarantor of the defence of those

16 lands for all the citizens, because it was the first one to start getting

17 ready for the defence.

18 Q. According to your knowledge, the SDA and HDZ in the HZ HB, on what

19 kind of terms were they? Was -- did they have the same relations as when

20 they were founded, that is whether they were still partners, whether they

21 were still allies?

22 A. Yes, partners at the time.

23 Q. And did anyone, to your knowledge, ever object to the

24 establishment of the HZ HB? I mean be it from the SDA or some other party

25 or some other organ?

Page 10898

1 A. The SDA did not object, and the -- when some minor problems

2 occurred they tried to solve them through negotiations, but leftist

3 parties were against the SDP and reformists were against.

4 Q. Do you have any personal knowledge as to what happened in the

5 locality of Polog and when did that happen?

6 A. It happened in May, I think, when tanks were stopped, those tanks

7 were to cut off the communication. It was, I suppose military exercises

8 and they were to cut off the road to Split, and then the Croats from that

9 land faced, confronted those tanks, because they assumed that they were

10 headed for Split. And Mr. Izetbegovic came too, and talked with those

11 army

12 officers and promised the Croat people, as the President of the

13 Presidency, that they were only engaged in a military exercise and that

14 they were headed for Kupres and that they had no aggressive intentions and

15 Croats accepted that as a nice gesture.

16 JUDGE LIU: You said it happened in May. Which year do you think

17 it is? It's in 1992 or 1991?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was in 1991.

19 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

20 Q. A while ago you said president of the Presidency, and that that

21 was Mr. Alija Izetbegovic. Do you know, but just briefly please, do you

22 know how was the Presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina organised, and was he

23 the President or the chairman or the presiding member of the Presidency --

24 of the collective Presidency?

25 JUDGE LIU: We have come across this issue many times. Can you

Page 10899

1 skip this question?

2 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, but I'm doing it

3 because of you. Because I remember that we were in serious trouble when

4 we tried to explain what the collective Presidency was, but never mind.

5 Let's move on.

6 Q. Do you know of a Muslim Bosniak organisation who was its

7 leadership and what were its objectives?

8 A. That party was organised and led by Adil Zulfikarpasic, and they

9 broke with Mr. Alija Izetbegovic -- until they broke, they were party

10 colleagues, members of the same party. So it was a Muslim -- it was a

11 Muslim party in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

12 Q. And what were its objectives and who led it?

13 A. I've just said it was Adil Zulfikarpasic who was its leader and

14 its objectives were, in my opinion, to keep Muslims in Yugoslavia with

15 Serbs.

16 Q. Do you have any personal knowledge whether they went to Belgrade

17 and engaged in a historical -- historic agreement between Muslims and

18 Serbs, to which the secretary was Mr. Milosevic?

19 A. Why, yes, it was in the summer of 1991, and I believe, history

20 will know that a historic agreement was concluded which the Serbs and

21 Muslims were also to offer conditionally to the Croats in

22 Bosnia-Herzegovina, to remain in Yugoslavia. The party President

23 Izetbegovic was also for this agreement during the talks, but I think,

24 seeing that it wasn't going in the expected direction, he gave up any

25 further actions in that -- along that road.

Page 10900

1 Q. Tell us, please, --

2 JUDGE CLARK: Sorry, Mr. Krsnik, there is an important word

3 missing at line 33, is it 2416? "... historic agreement was concluded

4 which the Serbs and Muslims were also to something conditionally to the

5 Croats." Line 23, apparently.

6 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Witness, let us clear this up. This historic agreement was to be

8 concluded between whom and what kind of consequences would it produce in

9 Bosnia-Herzegovina, had it been implemented and who was for it?

10 A. Allow me to clear it up, Your Honours. The historic agreement was

11 achieved or rather was proposed by Muslims and Serbs, and it was also to

12 be offered to the Croats, to stay in Yugoslavia.

13 Q. Now, we've gone through 1991 and moving on to 1992, and how does

14 the parliament of Bosnia-Herzegovina react to all the developments in

15 Bosnia and Herzegovina? What does it do? Does it also have some

16 proposals? How do things move politically in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

17 A. Your Honours, I believe this is important to clear it up. The

18 Sarajevo authorities are indifferent to our calls for help from

19 Bosnia-Herzegovina. We are requesting that legal guidelines be

20 established or be adopted to proclaim decision on war and imminent danger

21 of war, which would allow, under the existing regulations, to organise the

22 defence. But there was no reaction forth coming from Sarajevo, and we in

23 the SDA are a little bit angry with our president or the presiding member

24 of the Presidency, likewise the SDP and the reformists in Mostar do not

25 allow us to take a decision on the proclamation of war and the imminent

Page 10901

1 danger of war in Mostar. In early 1991, the Serbs definitively proclaimed

2 the Republika Srpska. That is de facto and de iure, they abandoned all

3 the Bosnian Herzegovinian institutions.

4 Q. Witness, I will now show you a document which is D1/320.

5 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] And will the usher please put the

6 English version on the ELMO? It is a public document so there is no

7 problem.

8 Q. Can you now that you look at this document, first are you familiar

9 with this document? Secondly, when and how was this decision taken?

10 A. Well, we thought that this document -- that this decision was to

11 be taken in October, in November, 1991, but, you see how long it took it

12 to talk the leftists, the reformists and everybody else, or rather when

13 they eventually realised that there was this danger, that a large number

14 of refugees had already arrived in Mostar from east Herzegovina. And that

15 was why a much stronger alliance between Croats and Muslims were

16 established at that time to defend these areas, and this was the

17 legitimate decision of the councilmen elected lawfully in the elections of

18 1990. And it shows -- and you can see clearly what it says.

19 Q. Did the Muslims and Croats have their troops, their army, or

20 armaments? How did you think to put up any resistance?

21 A. A decision was to be taken also at the Bosnian Herzegovinian

22 level, at the republican level, to activate the Territorial Defence

23 staffs. However, in Mostar, the reservists had appropriated all the

24 weaponry from the TO depots. The Presidency, that is in Sarajevo, the

25 republican body, took some decisions and selected some people who however

Page 10902

1 did not contribute to organising the defence, so that in Mostar, we found

2 nothing in the TO depots and it shouldn't be there by statute because the

3 Statute spelled out that this was the property of all the citizens, of

4 everybody there. That was the then law.

5 Q. Witness, the HZ HB exists, this decision was taken at the time

6 when it existed. Tell me, did the -- did the HZ HB engage in any

7 discriminatory policies against Muslims and non-Croats?

8 A. No. At that time the Croats and Muslims were together. They

9 organised their first, their initial army units, an independent battalion

10 which grew out from the patriotic league, that is Muslims, and the

11 battalion of the HVO, which brought together Croat majority, but there was

12 also a significant number of Muslims who were its members.

13 Q. Do you know when the HVO was established? And what is the HVO?

14 A. The HVO has its military wing, and that is the armed element, an

15 element of the armed forces of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and the HVO is also

16 the name of the temporary civilian authority. At that time, and I believe

17 it was April, the HVO -- that was how the HVO was organised in 1992, I

18 mean.

19 Q. And was there one army for the Muslims and Croats?

20 A. Then as today, the Croat component of -- is still the part of the

21 joint forces of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina. There is today still the

22 joint army that is the army of the federation made of two components.

23 Q. The two components are which?

24 A. The Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the HVO.

25 Q. Witness, we will go on discussing the HZ HB but let me first show

Page 10903

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 10904

1 you document D1/318, and could you please explain to the Trial Chamber

2 what its significance is and if we can please have the English version put

3 on the ELMO?

4 Sir, first of all, who issued this document, where, when, and how

5 did you come to possess this document? Do you know anything about this

6 document? Do you recognise this document? Who issued it, when?

7 A. I recognise this document. I got this document when I was already

8 a member of the executive board.

9 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I believe that it might

10 be better to go into private session for a moment.

11 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we will go to the private session, please.

12 [Private session]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 10905

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [Open session]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 10906

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [Trial Chamber confers]

15 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Witness, would you please tell us the source of

16 this document?

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 10907

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Were all the signatories of this document present there and is

18 this the press release that was endorsed by all the people that were

19 present at the session and who signed this document?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Let us clarify some issues pertaining to the HZ HB. I believe

22 that we are making good process. We are not wasting too much time but

23 tell us, what was the relationship among the three constituent peoples in

24 the HZ HB, if you know?

25 A. The HZ HB, if I may clarify it to the Trial Chamber and give them

Page 10908

1 my interpretation of the facts, it was an established administration of a

2 region, of an area in the same way in which the Republic of

3 Bosnia-Herzegovina is an administration imposed on the area that was held

4 by the Muslims conditionally speaking, and in the same way in which the

5 Republika Srpska was an established administration in an area where there

6 was a Serb majority. The HVO was an armed force of Bosnia and

7 Herzegovina, the Croatian component. The Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina was

8 the Muslim component of the armed forces of Bosnia and Herzegovina. And

9 the Republika Srpska army is the armed force of the Republika Srpska. So

10 we have the three administrations. They all had their temporary, interim

11 flags and emblems. That was the situation as it was in the time period

12 that is of our concern.

13 Q. What was the currency that was in use in HZ HB, if you know?

14 A. The old values were calculated in the German mark, but the lira,

15 the U.S. dollar and Croatian kuna, all these currencies were used, but the

16 values were calculated in German marks.

17 Q. Was the Bosnian dinar also used?

18 A. Yes. It was used but it could not be accepted. It had no value.

19 You couldn't buy anything with it.

20 Q. What language was used in or spoken in HZ HB?

21 A. When the war broke out, in fact before that, we all spoke

22 Serbo-Croat, and Croato-Serb. That was the official, the two official

23 names for the language before 1990. And then the HZ HB simply got rid of

24 the second element, the Serbian element, and the Croatian language

25 remained. That was the term used.

Page 10909

1 Q. Witness, we heard in this courtroom that the -- in the HZ HB,

2 Muslims lost their jobs, that they were prohibited from using their own

3 language, that they were discriminated against. Can you please comment on

4 that?

5 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Prosecution?

6 MR. PORIOUVAEV: I think that the Defence counsel should make a

7 concrete question. We need some response to the questions but not

8 comments.

9 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Krsnik, put your question in another way, or

10 if so, you could split your question in several parts.

11 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] All right, all right.

12 Q. Let's be more specific. Is it correct that Muslims lost their

13 jobs?

14 A. Everybody lost their jobs because there was no work. It was not

15 something that happened exclusively to Muslims. Croats lost their jobs

16 too.

17 Q. What about not being allowed to use their own language?

18 A. They spoke their own language and everybody was able to understand

19 them.

20 Q. What about discrimination against Muslim in HZ HB?

21 A. They were given all the documents they needed. They were able to

22 live and to work. They shared the same fate as all the other inhabitants

23 of the region. I fail to see any discrimination. They worked in schools,

24 in the university, in hospitals, in the Electroprivreda power supply

25 company, in the municipal administration. It was 50, 50, in fact, the

Page 10910

1 division of posts among the heads of the offices.

2 Q. You mentioned documents. Which documents were you referring to in

3 HZ HB?

4 A. I mean the ID cards, the driver's licences, the medical insurance

5 cards, documents that you need to have in your civilian life.

6 Q. I'm sorry, I think that we all hear this for the first time. You

7 mean to say that Muslims and Croats had the same documents in HZ HB to

8 regulate their civilian lives, such as driver's licences, registration

9 documents for the car and ID cards, things like that?

10 A. Yes, that is correct. And all these documents are still valid

11 because some laws have not been passed. I believe that -- I think that

12 the law on ID cards, as the basic identification document for each person,

13 is now being passed in the parliament.

14 Q. Do you still have that same ID card?

15 A. Yes.

16 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Can we now go into private session?

17 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we will now go into private session, please.

18 [Private session]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 10911

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Pages 10911-10920 redacted private session

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 10921

1 --- Recess taken at 5.26 p.m.

2 --- On resuming at 5.55 p.m.

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [Open session]

9 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, just -- the whole

10 Defence for Mr. Mladen Naletilic, first we wish to apologise to Judge

11 Diarra, and we are slightly worried because we just realised that we have

12 not translated a single Defence document into French. So I wish to ask

13 you for help. The translation -- these translation that is we've done

14 into English, perhaps Mr. President, you could help us to have them

15 translated into French as well.

16 JUDGE LIU: Yes. This matter will be looked after as soon as

17 possible. You may proceed, Mr. Krsnik.

18 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

19 Q. Witness, tell us, do you know if Mr. Arif Pasalic -- this person

20 -- this experience that you had with him, are you aware if Mr. Arif

21 Pasalic also tried to bring pressure on some other people, I mean pressure

22 of that same nature?

23 MR. PORIOUVAEV: I'm sorry, it's a leading question.

24 JUDGE LIU: Rephrase your question, Mr. Krsnik.

25 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

Page 10922

1 Q. Are you aware of any pressure in general terms, similar

2 experiences to the ones that you had?

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]. Don't worry. Tell us, if you have any personal

9 knowledge of that, you said that mufti was the spiritual leader of the

10 council of Muslims. I see that Arif Pasalic also exercises this pressure,

11 and under whose influence are they? Who is pulling their strings? Of

12 course, if you know.

13 A. I've already said it half an hour ago, that it was coordinated

14 action aimed at weakening the position of the Party for Democratic Action

15 and within the party, the legal party of the Muslim people, the SDA.

16 There were such attempts to destabilise it, by Mr. Demirovic, by Mr.

17 Orucevic, from three sides. This only oasis of partnership was being

18 attacked in order to radicalise the relations with partners, that is my

19 view. And likewise, now, after all this time, I can once again form my

20 opinions on the basis of certain information, that it was all being done

21 in order to -- so that Mr. Izetbegovic could have an edge in the

22 negotiations about the partitioning of Bosnia-Herzegovina because at that

23 time, the discussions about peace plans were underway.

24 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Your Honours, maybe the witness can specify the

25 time frame.

Page 10923

1 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Witness, did you hear the question put forward by

2 the Prosecution? Would you please specify the time frame?

3 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

4 Q. What you just told us.

5 A. A very good question. Well, the question is the arrival of

6 Izetbegovic in Mostar, the radicalisation of the situation, September,

7 1992. That is when this was happening. And then it culminated in the

8 relations between the partners, that is political partners and military

9 allies at the time of the unhappy developments that I suppose you know

10 about or have heard here in this honourable court.

11 Q. Do you have any personal knowledge whether in the course of this

12 radicalisation both the Islamisation of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

13 A. I have to tell the Honourable Court that the party for democratic

14 action has always had, has always shown some pro-Islamic leaning because

15 its founder were Mr. Izetbegovic, Mr. Behman, Bikakcic , Teufic Velabic

16 and Salem Sabic and they are close to Islamic circles, but at that time of

17 creating a good and equitable position for the three constituent peoples,

18 which wasn't bad, but there was also this idea about the further

19 radicalisation and Islamisation of the army, that is the armour component

20 of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the party itself. And there were

21 pressures to bring in people who would engage in these Islamic activities

22 and thus bring about the radicalisation of relations so that Liberal

23 members of the party and executive -- so there was an attempt to remove

24 the liberal-minded members of the party and executive boards.

25 Q. Do you know if those people that you -- whose names you mentioned

Page 10924

1 just now and who are the founders and leaders of the SDA -- do you know

2 that they were brought to trial as fundamentalists in the former

3 Yugoslavia?

4 A. Well, perhaps fundamentalist would be too strong a word but they

5 were tried for the implementation of the Islamic Declaration or rather a

6 creation of some room for Islam in Bosnia-Herzegovina. That's how I

7 would put it.

8 Q. Witness, what do you know about the Izetbegovic-Tudjman agreement

9 in 1992?

10 A. Your Honours, this is a very important document for all the

11 activities, and that was the idea which guided me and people that I worked

12 with, which is a broad political non-discriminatory equitable document as

13 regards the organisation of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and the organisation

14 of two sovereign states, because its very first article already specifies,

15 if I can remember now after all this time, but I never forget that, that

16 Bosnia-Herzegovina needs to be organised as the state of three equal

17 peoples with all their cultural resource, and what do I know, all other

18 components. And this agreement was something that underpins the current

19 good relations between Bosnia-Herzegovina and the Republic of Croatia, and

20 I can confirm it from the point of view of the work that I do now, because

21 our economies are complementary, we are trying to -- we live well and

22 there are no outstanding issues between the two states.

23 Q. According to what you know, but this is claimed here in this

24 Court, that is that the HVO is controlled outside the HZ HB, that the

25 Republic of Croatia was involved or that it even controlled the conflict

Page 10925

1 in the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina. Can you help the Chamber in

2 solving this claim?

3 A. I can state my view and my opinion with great pleasure. President

4 Tudjman was mandated to -- by the international community to represent the

5 interests of the Croats in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

6 Q. Just go slowly.

7 A. The Croats in Bosnia-Herzegovina, and their leadership, were the

8 signatories to all or the majority of internationally verified

9 agreements. The Republic of Croatia took care and received a large number

10 of refugees. And autonomous decisions within temporary executive bodies

11 of the armed component of the joint forces of Bosnia-Herzegovina, these

12 decisions Croats took autonomously headed by Mr. Boban, by Mr. Prlic and

13 their associates.

14 Q. And to complete with this, let us move on to 1993 in Mostar, and

15 the referendum, the referendum question. What do you know about that?

16 A. Your Honours, to my mind, this is -- after this agreement, this is

17 another important document because on the 29th of February, and the 1st of

18 March, Croats and Muslims jointly, as allies, sealed the present Dayton

19 Bosnia and Herzegovina. I think that the question was, "Are you for an

20 independent Bosnia-Herzegovina?" And I think that this was supported by

21 over 60 per cent of Croats and Muslims because the Serbs did not take part

22 in the referendum, nor was -- nor was one able to vote in their lands. So

23 this is a very important -- very important document in the recent history

24 of the Dayton Bosnia-Herzegovina.

25 Q. Witness, in 1993, my question to you is what the situation was

Page 10926

1 like in Mostar.

2 A. In the beginning of 1993, there was intensive -- there were

3 intensive negotiations about the Vance-Owen Plan that was in the area of

4 foreign policy, and then as events unfolded, in relation to this peace

5 plan, this also had its repercussions on Mostar and on Herzegovina. The

6 coalition partners, the HDZ and the SDA wanted to comply with such

7 agreements in a legitimate way. The agreement is initialed, I believe

8 that it happened in March, as far as I can remember, it was initialed by

9 Izetbegovic on behalf -- and also by Mr. Tudjman as the internationally

10 recognised representatives -- representative of Croats. However, in

11 Mostar, and that's very important, the structures around the council,

12 close to the Council of Muslims, and close to this faction in the SDA and

13 particularly in the army leadership, do not accept this. They keep on

14 agitating against it, and this, of course made the situation in the city

15 of Mostar and in the wider region more complex. The SDA began to lose

16 ground, to lose its influence with its partners because it was unable to

17 control those rigid elements within its ranks. And simply, there was a

18 loss of trust among the coalition partners.

19 Q. According to the Vance-Owen Plan, who got Mostar?

20 A. The province of Mostar, I think it's province number 8, it was

21 given to Croats.

22 Q. Did SDA agree to that?

23 A. The Mostar SDA wanted to implement the agreement fully, with all

24 its provisions, because it did offer the equal rights, and I have to say

25 that this particular unit is structured in a similar way, it is perhaps

Page 10927

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 10928

1 slightly modified in relation to what it was in 1993. So it is still

2 structured in the same way today in the Dayton Bosnia-Herzegovina.

3 Q. Do you personally know whether the Vance-Owen Peace Plan was

4 signed and who signed it if it was signed?

5 A. I think that the Croatian side signed all the documents. I

6 think --

7 JUDGE LIU: Well, the question is do you personally know whether

8 the [wrong interpretation coming through, French interpretation coming

9 through on the English channel].

10 JUDGE LIU: We have some problems with the channels, the

11 interpretation channels. Yes.

12 THE INTERPRETER: Can you hear us?

13 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I know, it was signed by

15 Boban, Izetbegovic, but it was not signed by Karadzic, and hence it was

16 not internationally verified, because the course of the peace conference

17 was such that the agreements reached by the three parties had also to be

18 verified by the international community. However, Izetbegovic and Boban

19 did sign this agreement.

20 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Could this agreement have been implemented in Herzegovina

22 regardless of the fact that Karadzic did not endorse it?

23 A. We were absolutely sure and we thought that it could have been

24 fully implemented in cooperation of the Muslims and Croats, and that the

25 Croats, or rather the HDZ, even proposed the name for the governor and we

Page 10929

1 also started the process of nominating people.

2 Q. Do you have any personal knowledge as to who prevented the

3 implementation of the Vance-Owen Peace Plan in Herzegovina?

4 A. Well, I have some information or some knowledge that things were

5 always signed and then they were -- the implementation was obstructed in

6 Bosnia-Herzegovina, in the field. It was done by the SDA leadership led

7 by Alija Izetbegovic, and then it was transferred down to the grass roots

8 level.

9 Q. And why was it so?

10 A. I believe, I'm convinced, that it was just the stalling tactics in

11 which they were trying to improve their negotiating position, to gain more

12 territory in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

13 Q. When did the first conflicts between the parties, or rather the

14 armies in Mostar or Herzegovina break out?

15 A. In that time period, I have to say that I was not happy with the

16 politics of the party. Even with all the problems in the field, I

17 personally felt that one should leave the party because the policy --

18 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

19 MR. PORIOUVAEV: It seems to me the question was quite brief and

20 concrete and now we have a lot of words instead of a response to this

21 concrete question.

22 JUDGE LIU: Yes, witness, I think you should answer the question

23 first. Then, if you need an explanation, you may do that.

24 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

25 Q. You started speaking about your personal views or your personal

Page 10930

1 fate, but let's first -- let's do it this way. What personal decisions

2 did you make and when did you make them?

3 A. I left the SDA party in March, 1993.

4 Q. I would like to request that we go into private session, because

5 we are now going to be discussing the personal life of the witness?

6 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we will go to the private session.

7 [Private session]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 10931

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13 Pages 10931-10946 redacted private session

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 10947

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

4 7.00 p.m., to be reconvened on Tuesday,

5 the 7th day of May, 2002, at 2.15 p.m.

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25