1 Tuesday, 7 May 2002
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.26 p.m.
5 JUDGE LIU: Call the case, please, Madam Registrar.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case number
7 IT-98-34-T, the Prosecutor versus Naletilic and Martinovic.
8 JUDGE LIU: Well, I'm very sorry about the delay this afternoon.
9 So Madam Registrar, would you please talk to the Court deputy of the
10 Milosevic case and ask her to talk to Judge May to finish their case as
11 punctually as possible so that we have no possible delay for the afternoon
13 It is the intention of this Trial Chamber to finish the testimony
14 of that witness today. So Mr. Krsnik, you have 30 minutes to go with this
16 Could we bring in the witness, please?
17 [The witness entered court].
18 JUDGE LIU: Good afternoon, Witness.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
20 JUDGE LIU: Sit down, please.
21 WITNESS: WITNESS ND [Resumed]
22 [Witness answered through interpreter].
23 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Krsnik, you may proceed. I think we were at the
24 Heliodrom yesterday.
25 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I would like
1 the technical service to put down the ELMO because I can't see my
3 Examination by Mr. Krsnik: [Continued].
4 Q. Good afternoon, sir.
5 A. Good afternoon.
6 Q. As you heard yesterday, we have only half an hour, so please
7 concentrate so that we can go through the remaining part of your
8 testimony. Let me remind you we broke off yesterday as Mr. President has
9 already said at the Heliodrom, but yesterday, your last sentence was the
10 SDK, the 4th elementary school, the Jablanica museum, Konjic and Bugojno.
11 This is what you were saying. Can you explain to the Trial Chamber what
12 these locations are, what the ideas of your party were regarding these
13 detention camps and can you just specify what did you mean by these
15 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
16 MR. PORIOUVAEV: I think that it's nothing else but tu quoque.
17 JUDGE LIU: Well, we haven't heard anything from this witness yet,
18 and I believe the question asked by Defence counsel is just for some
19 background information. You may answer that question, Witness.
20 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] The witness doesn't seem to have the
22 Q. Can you hear them now?
23 A. I can't hear the Croatian interpretation.
24 JUDGE LIU: Can you hear me? Yes. Would you please answer that
25 question, Witness?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The question of the Trial Chamber
2 or -- ?
3 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]
4 Q. No, no, my last question, if you can answer?
5 A. I'm really sorry but it takes quite a long time to fix
6 everything. The declaration of the Muslim Democratic Party was a
7 universal declaration of humanitarian character, whose aim was to support
8 the disbanding of all the detention camps, both Croat and Muslim.
9 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Your Honour, it seems to me that the witness is
10 not answering the question. He begins with some declaration --
11 JUDGE LIU: Well, I believe the witness is going to answer that
12 question, and the question is tell us something about the Heliodrom, the
13 4th elementary school, the Jablanica museum, Konjic and Bugojno. Yes.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. At the
15 Heliodrom, Muslims were detained by the investigators and police and the
16 military. In the 4th elementary school, the BH Army held Croats in
17 detention. And in the Jablanica museum, which used to be the Tito
18 memorial museum, the Bosnia and Herzegovina organs held in detention
19 Croats. And the same thing went for Bugojno. I think that's the answer
20 to your question.
21 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Now I would like you to look at Exhibit D1/198. Can we please
23 check whether this is the declaration and whether the goal of the
24 declaration was to release -- before that, you didn't mention to the Trial
25 Chamber about the SDK building and the 4th elementary school. Where were
1 these buildings?
2 A. On the eastern side of the river.
3 Q. Were these Croats that were detained there civilians or soldiers?
4 A. As far as I know, they were civilians.
5 Q. Is that the declaration you were talking about?
6 A. Yes, Your Honours, it is.
7 Q. Could you please tell the Trial Chamber what's the date of the
8 declaration, where, when you wrote it, and whether anyone was released
9 pursuant to this declaration, who you talked to about these matters?
10 A. The declaration was written by the people in the MDS or people
11 close to the MDS. I have to say again there was this universal
12 humanitarian goal of disbanding all the camps or centres as they were
13 called, and to remove this burden from the relationship between Muslims
14 and Croats. The reason why it was written was to offer the interim
15 authorities of Herceg-Bosna and to the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina and
16 the international community, to offer this solution.
17 Q. The HZ HB organs, how did they react to this idea when you
18 proposed it to them?
19 A. They read, as far as I know, because I was in Zagreb on some other
20 business at the time because we had to get in touch with the embassies
21 located in Zagreb, because there was a possibility that this might be
22 offered to the embassies of it Turkey, Iran, Germany and also to some
23 relevant authorities in the Republic of Croatia, but president Pohara took
24 this declaration to the then president of Herceg-Bosna, Mr. Boban, and
25 they got in touch with these people in Mostar and they even started with
1 some activities, in an attempt to implement these goals.
2 Q. Do you know whether the HZ HB authorities allowed access to the
3 Heliodrom and that people were released pursuant to this declaration?
4 A. Well, on the basis of what the people reported to us when they got
5 back, they were able to enter, with the approval of the HZ HB authorities,
6 to Heliodrom and with some offices and investigation centres, they were
7 able to achieve the release of the people who were not under military
8 obligation, who were not conscripts.
9 Q. Did you get in contact with the BH Army organs and what were their
11 A. I think that we got in touch with the organs of the Republic of
12 Bosnia-Herzegovina. Attempts were made by the people in Mostar through
13 some satellite links. They tried to get in touch with Sarajevo but as
14 these friends of mine informed me, there was no response.
15 Q. Can you please tell me, did you personally, or your party, go to
16 the -- to Mr. Klaus Kinkel, the foreign Minister of Germany, and what was
17 his response to this declaration?
18 A. Well, these were the activities that we undertook at the time
19 because our goal was to engage as many members of the international
20 community as possible, and I believe that we did get in touch, and that
21 Mr. Pohara, Mr. Hadziosmanovic, who was in Mostar throughout this whole
22 time period, and he went to visit the detainees with Mr. Pohara, they went
23 to Germany, I think that Mr. Baksic, the President of the Croatian Muslim
6 JUDGE LIU: We will go to the private session, please.
7 [Private session]
12 Pages 10954-10963 – redacted – private session
1 [Open session]
2 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
3 Q. Witness, did you know, Vinko Martinovic in 1992, 1993, his
4 nickname was Stela?
5 A. Your Honours I've heard about Mr. Martinovic but as I was told, so
6 this is something that I heard, I do not know him, and what heard was that
7 he was a member of the earliest formations engaged in the liberation of
8 Mostar. Those forces were called HOS, and subsequently, he joined the
9 regular HVO forces. That is all I know. That is I've heard about him but
10 I do not know him.
11 Q. Do you know what role he played during the conflict between the BH
12 Army and the Croat Defence Council?
13 A. No, I don't.
14 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. President. I
15 have no more questions.
16 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Any cross-examination, Mr. Prosecutor?
17 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Thank you, Your Honour.
18 Cross-examined by Mr. Poriouvaev:
19 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Perhaps you will give us a couple of minutes just
20 to distribute our exhibits in the courtroom.
21 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
22 MR. PORIOUVAEV: The booths already have the documents.
23 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I will start begging
24 here. Must it be one minute before the cross-examination that we get the
25 documents? And look at them. Look at the bundle. Haven't we agreed that
1 we would be getting those documents after the witness had been sworn in?
2 So that the defence can get ready? This is really an ambush. One minute
3 before. The Chamber decided that it would be immediately after the
4 witness has made a solemn declaration and it was at your request,
5 Mr. Prosecutor.
6 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Your Honour, as far as I remember, there was no
7 such -- even gentlemen agreement on providing the documents to the defence
8 just after the oath has been taken by the witness. Nor was there any
9 written decision on that.
10 JUDGE LIU: Well, yes, Mr. Seric? I saw you're still standing.
11 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. President. I
12 was just expecting a copy of the documents for us. That is the only
13 reason. Thank you. I've just got it.
14 JUDGE LIU: Well, we have debated this issue already, and this
15 Trial Chamber made a decision concerning of the motion filed by the
16 Defence counsel. In cross-examination, it is the nature of the surprising
17 attack. That's the purpose of the cross-examination. And if the
18 Prosecution could distribute this bundle of documents during the break,
19 that will save us a lot of time during the proceedings.
20 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Unfortunately, Your Honour, we didn't have any
21 break today.
22 JUDGE LIU: You may proceed, Mr. Prosecutor.
23 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, my apologies but for
24 the transcript, I wish to say that the Defence was not treated in this
25 manner. I put it to you that we were not treated in this manner at the
1 time when we conducted the cross-examination.
2 JUDGE LIU: Well, you may proceed, Mr. Prosecutor.
3 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Thank you, Your Honour.
4 Q. Good afternoon, Witness. Excuse me but for the sake of your
5 safety, I will call you Mr. ND sometimes, so don't get offended, please,
6 because witness sometimes sounds very official. Is it all right with
8 A. Yes, sure.
9 Q. I will start my cross-examination just with some pieces of
10 Mr. Krsnik's last topic. That's about Heliodrom and another trial where
11 the witness took part. First of all about Heliodrom, Witness, is it
12 correct that you have just told the Trial Chamber that it was Heliodrom
13 was a sort of military investigative body? Right?
14 A. Well, I did say that it was an area. I said it's very difficult
15 for me to call it a camp or detention centre. That was a place where
16 military investigations were conducted.
17 Q. Do you mean, then, to say that this famous declaration was
18 distributed by your party among people, prisoners, who were being
19 investigated as suspects or accused? Because they were kept in the
20 investigative centre?
21 A. I think that people were taken there by military investigating
22 authorities who were to investigate whether they were members of the Army
23 of Bosnia and Herzegovina, of ABiH units.
24 Q. But I suggest that you know that if a person is under
25 investigation, they should be some warrant of arrest or detention by the
1 Prosecutor or by the Judge.
2 MR. MEEK: Mr. President?
3 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Meek.
4 MR. MEEK: A technical problem, this microphone in front of my
5 client is on and he's having a hard time listening to the testimony.
6 Could someone from the technical booth turn it off?
7 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Maybe someone from the technical booth could
8 help us. Don't do it by yourself. Is it off? Is that okay? Let's try
9 it. Well, maybe during the break, it could be fixed.
10 Yes, Mr. Prosecutor.
11 MR. PORIOUVAEV:
12 Q. Mr. ND, is it normal that representatives of your party were
13 meddling with investigative issues of the authorities whom you considered
15 A. Mr. Prosecutor, may I answer, but just let me just ask you a
16 question if I may, of course, if that is all right under the Court
18 JUDGE LIU: It's the practice before this Tribunal that you should
19 only answer the question. If you don't understand the question, you may
20 ask for some clarifications, but generally speaking, you should answer the
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We thought that for humane reasons,
23 it would be proper to engage in political activity, because that perhaps
24 would calm down the passions. On the 19th of May, Izetbegovic and Tudjman
25 were in Medjugorje. What was done? Nothing. So we had to do something.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 MR. PORIOUVAEV:
2 Q. Witness, I didn't ask you about negotiations between Tudjman,
3 Izetbegovic. My question was quite clear-cut.
4 A. We thought that it would be good for us to try to do something at
5 a political level to undertake a political -- undertake political steps
6 to, and that is why I said Heliodrom and the SDK, that is all the places
7 where there were some detained, either by the authorities of the Army of
8 Bosnia-Herzegovina and the HVO. This was a universal humanitarian
9 declaration. A political declaration.
10 Q. The main value, I think of any judicial activity is independence
11 of judicial authorities, is it correct?
12 A. Why, yes. I am a very legalistically minded. That is why I came
13 here. I believe in the independence and fairness of this Tribunal. And I
14 think that this is the key to the establishment of lasting peace in
16 Q. Do you still believe that there were no civilians in Heliodrom?
17 A. That there were no civilians? Why, there were those civilians but
18 they were released. There were the military investigators and they
19 questioned them and let the civilians go.
20 Q. Do you mean that there were no civilians in July, 1993?
21 A. I mean, yes, there were some civilians, and the declaration was
22 intended to have them freed, but they -- this existed on both sides. I
23 mean the declaration is universal. It does not apply to the Heliodrom
24 only, but there were some -- some results from achieved at the Heliodrom.
25 Q. Thank you. We will proceed with the Heliodrom a little bit later.
1 And now, Your Honours, I would like you to it allow us to go into
2 session for some minutes?
3 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Private session, please.
4 [Private session]
12 Pages 10971-10999 – redacted – private session
10 [Open session]
11 MR. PORIOUVAEV:
12 Q. Yesterday, during your testimony and today, you also said that
13 there was no discrimination, you never heard or saw any acts of
14 discrimination, right?
15 A. I can't see my transcript, but as far as I can remember since
16 yesterday, yes, I still stand by that opinion.
17 Q. Witness, did you know a Mr. Tadic from the HVO government?
20 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik?
21 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Could this be struck out, please? Or
22 to go back into private session once again? That is one thing. And
23 secondly, Witness, do not answer until you've seen the Prosecutor switch
24 off his microphone because if these microphones are not switched off, then
25 your voice can get through. But can this please either be redacted or we
1 have to go back into private session because it is very easy to know who
2 could be a member of the Herceg-Bosna's government.
3 MR. PORIOUVAEV: I didn't expect the witness to just talk about
5 JUDGE LIU: Well, we'll go back to the private session for a
7 [Private session]
12 Pages 11002-11038 – redacted – private session
18 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
19 7.09 p.m., to be reconvened on Wednesday,
20 the 8th day of May, 2002, at 2.15 p.m.