Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 11920

1 Thursday, 30 May 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.20 p.m.

5 JUDGE LIU: Call the case, please, Madam Registrar.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours, this is case number

7 IT-98-34-T, the Prosecutor versus Naletilic and Martinovic.

8 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Krsnik, are you ready for the next witness?

9 MR. KRSNIK: Yes, Your Honour. [Interpretation] I have the same

10 request as for the previous witness, face distortion and a pseudonym.

11 JUDGE LIU: I guess there is no objections?

12 MR. BOS: No objections, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. Mr. Usher, could we have the

14 witness, please? Yes, Mr. Scott?

15 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, my apology. I asked if I could see the

16 Chamber just for a moment before we have the witness just on some

17 procedural matters if I could ask if we could go to closed session or

18 private session for a moment?

19 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we will go to private session, please.

20 [Private session]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 11921

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Pages 11921-11926 redacted private session

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 11927

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [Open session]

24 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

25 Q. My first question: In the police station, is there a detention

Page 11928

1 unit?

2 A. Yes, there is a.

3 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness come closer to the microphone,

4 please?

5 A. Yes, there are two detention units in the Siroki Brijeg police

6 station. That's correct. In the Siroki Brijeg police station, there are

7 two detention rooms, which, during the communist -- which were made, which

8 were owned during the communist regime, because under the then prevailing

9 law on the criminal procedure of Bosnia and Herzegovina, the police had

10 the right to, without the consent of the investigating judge, to detain

11 people up to three days. Those persons for which there were indications

12 that they had committed a certain crime.

13 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Okay. After the three days, under the then prevailing law you

15 would either release them or bring them before an investigating judge?

16 A. After the three days, if we collected enough evidence to file

17 criminal charges, then we, together with this criminal report actually, we

18 would take the suspect to the prosecutor general, to the public

19 prosecutor. And if we did not collect enough evidence during these three

20 days to file a criminal report, then that person would be released.

21 Q. These people -- this questions may not be as relevant. Another

22 question about the detention only and the investigating judge could have

23 made decisions about detention; is that right, after the three days?

24 A. After these three days, only the investigating judge could do

25 that.

Page 11929

1 Q. Let's move on to more specific questions. I am going to be asking

2 you only about one very specific event. In 1993, were a number of Muslims

3 brought to the police station? Was there a large number of Muslims

4 brought to the police station?

5 A. In May, 1993, I can't give you the exact date, but I think it was

6 around the 10th of May, when ten members of the Army of BH were brought

7 from Mostar to the police station Siroki Brijeg.

8 Q. Can you tell me who brought them, how, and how many people were

9 there, and were you present when they were brought in?

10 A. On that day, as on every other day, I was present in my workplace

11 in the Siroki Brijeg police station. These people of Muslim nationality

12 were brought by the military police in two of their vans. Since I was

13 there when they were brought in, I could see that some ten people were --

14 from one van were first taken to the building of the military police,

15 which is in the same street, in the immediate vicinity of the civilian

16 police, i.e. the Siroki Brijeg police station. In that building, the

17 military police had two improvised detention rooms. And then from the

18 second van, they brought out the ten people who could not be accommodated

19 in the detention rooms of the military police, so they were placed in the

20 two detention rooms of the Siroki Brijeg police station that I've already

21 mentioned.

22 Q. Was the civilian police -- did the civilian police have any

23 jurisdiction over military -- the military that year?

24 A. No. The military police had jurisdiction over conscripts and all

25 the military.

Page 11930

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 11931

1 Q. Then why did they bring to you? Why were those ten people put at

2 your -- put up at your place in the civilian police station?

3 A. Because in Siroki Brijeg, these two buildings, that is the

4 military police building and the civilian police building, because thee

5 two buildings were the only ones where there were any strong rooms, any

6 detention rooms.

7 Q. So were you asked to look after them? Because you said that --

8 A. Well, allow me to explain it to you in a couple of sentences.

9 When the military police came, and told the chief of the police

10 administration -- no, sorry, police station, now it is called police

11 administration and I sometimes confuse those two terms. They told him

12 that they'd need to put these persons in the detention facilities for only

13 a couple of days, but that they would be only to be guarded by the

14 civilian police so that in the meantime, they could conduct investigation

15 in relation to those detainees as they were suspected of having committed

16 war crimes.

17 On the same occasion, representatives of the military police

18 notified the chief of the police station that during those couple of days,

19 which is how long they ought to be kept there under custody, they would be

20 coming --

21 Q. Who is "they"?

22 A. Military police representatives. To conduct interviews with the

23 detainees in order to collect evidence about the perpetrated war crimes.

24 Q. Right. Then who was responsible for those persons in the police

25 station?

Page 11932

1 A. As for the interviews and all the rest regarding those detainees,

2 the responsibility rested with the military police. The civilian police

3 was only to keep them under custody, because that was what was explicitly

4 said by the representatives of the military police during their meeting

5 with the chief of our police station.

6 Q. Who could talk with or gain access to individuals who were in your

7 detention unit? And how was this custody organised?

8 A. Well, those were the people from the military police because they

9 were the only ones responsible for them.

10 Q. And what about somebody else?

11 A. No, nobody else could gain access to them because after those

12 persons were detained, the chief of the police station held a briefing

13 with his assistants, and ordered to inform, to notify, their subordinates

14 that nobody aside from the military police was allowed to communicate with

15 the detainees.

16 Q. Witness, how many detainees were in each of the detention rooms,

17 in the strong rooms? How were they accommodated?

18 A. In each one of the two rooms, there were four detainees. And in

19 front of these strong rooms, there is a rather large hall, and on the

20 floor there were sponge mattresses and that is where the others slept, the

21 difference, those who were not in those cells.

22 Q. Did you see that personally?

23 A. Yes, I saw it with my own eyes, because across the hall from those

24 strong rooms, or rather at the entrance, down the staircase, to the right

25 of those detention rooms, was the laboratory of the criminal investigation

Page 11933

1 department, and sometimes it was necessary for me, because of certain

2 crimes, to go down there to consult the laboratory technicians.

3 Q. Who was responsible for the custody? Who guarded those prisoners?

4 A. It was the uniformed police who were responsible to keep an eye on

5 the detainees. Their job description, or rather the rules prescribed that

6 they submit reports every morning to their chief, and he would then submit

7 it to the chief of the police station.

8 Q. What about the food? How did you feed them? Tell me all that you

9 know about that.

10 A. Well, it was wartime and there were very few of us policemen in

11 the Siroki Brijeg police station.

12 Q. You mean professional, law enforcement officers like you?

13 A. Yes, professionals. We therefore spent all our time on the

14 premises of the Siroki Brijeg police station so that most of the time we

15 even slept there, because we had our cots, our beds, on the upper floor

16 where the police had their premises, that is both the uniformed and the

17 criminal investigation officers. We were getting food from a factory in

18 Siroki Brijeg because it had a very large kitchen and which prepared food

19 for the troops, and from there it was taken out into the field, and within

20 the framework of that, they also brought food to us, to the Siroki Brijeg

21 police station. And that is where we had our meals throughout. The same

22 food which we were getting from this kitchen, from this canteen, from this

23 ready-to-serve food factory, the same food was also served to the

24 detainees. In other words, the food which was getting to the Siroki

25 Brijeg police station was served, three meals a day, and with this food,

Page 11934

1 we were also getting fruit, juices. The food that we were getting, and

2 then distributing among the detainees, this was done -- the distribution

3 was done by their guards, or as I already said, the uniformed police.

4 Q. Could you perhaps speed up? Now you're just too slow, I think.

5 A. Those same officers were responsible for --

6 Q. Will you please speed up because it is important when this dot

7 stops?

8 A. Well, I'm watching when the dot stops.

9 Q. The most important thing is that the two of us do not speak at the

10 same time because then the interpreters cannot follow. And speed, try to

11 adjust it. I think the interpreters will warn you if we are too fast

12 and we always have to remember Her Honour Judge Diarra because she's

13 following the French translation.

14 A. So those same officers, that is the uniformed police, who were --

15 who guarded the prisoners were also responsible for -- also took prisoners

16 to the toilets when necessary, and I mean when necessary, when they asked

17 to be taken there, because that was the orders that they had.

18 Q. Sir, let us finish with this canteen. Was it a central canteen, a

19 kitchen which prepared food for the troops, or I may not lead you. Tell

20 us, who did this food factory supply with food, if you know?

21 A. Apart from this central kitchen, which was in Siroki Brijeg, there

22 was yet another kitchen in the Obnova company. And it also prepared

23 food for the troops, and that food was taken to the troops on the ground,

24 and a large number of refugees who were in Siroki Brijeg at the time were

25 also getting that food, and also incapacitated people or weak people whose

Page 11935

1 members of the family, whose sons were on the front line.

2 Q. Later on, I think we shall come to that. A few words about the

3 refugees. We will come to that. Let us not discuss it now. Tell me now,

4 the Siroki Brijeg police station, who was above it? Who issues orders to

5 it?

6 A. It was only and exclusively the Ministry of the Interior of

7 Herceg-Bosna with the seat in Mostar, and the police station accounted to

8 the MUP in Mostar, and received orders from them.

9 Q. I will later on become more specific but say who would be called

10 to account in if somebody hit a detainee, who would be called to

11 account?

12 A. There would be a whole chain of responsibility to begin with, the

13 perpetrator of the act, then the chief of the police administration,

14 because he would have to report to the central ministry of the interior in

15 Mostar, to the central MUP in Mostar, and they could also sanction

16 individual acts. They had this authority.

17 Q. And had that happened, would you feel moral responsibility for

18 that too because you were one of the chiefs there?

19 A. Well, also in terms of my age and my seniority, yes, I was a

20 senior, I was one of the senior people there, if not the oldest person

21 there. So of course I'd feel responsible, because I was there. I

22 participated in those. However, I can say speaking in my own name --

23 Q. Just a moment. Now we shall move to some specific matters.

24 Namely, we heard witnesses testify in this Court how they were beaten in

25 front of the police station, how they were put ten men to a cell in the

Page 11936

1 police station, they never mentioned the military police, they never said

2 that there was such a building as the military police, so only the Siroki

3 Brijeg police station, a that they were ten to a room. And that on

4 various occasions I will give you names later, but we shall go into

5 private session, that they were mistreated and in horrific ways.

6 A. Counsel, sir, I'm surprised. I'm really taken aback. How could

7 the Court accept somebody who insinuates things like that? Because all I

8 can call this is shameless lies. I say that there were no such things,

9 that nobody could enter the Siroki Brijeg police station, apart from the

10 military police, because any entrance into the Siroki Brijeg police

11 station had to be recorded by the duty officer at the police station in

12 Siroki Brijeg who had his logbook, and the name of every visitor had to be

13 entered there and the reason for his visit.

14 Q. Are these logbooks still with the police station?

15 A. Yeah, sure, 100 per cent. They can still be seen, if need be.

16 Q. I hope I'll be there in no time at all, and I'll ask for that and

17 I hope you'll help me.

18 A. Apart from the duty officer who would be substituting for the

19 chief of the police station in his absence, the state operations officer

20 will also -- at the Siroki Brijeg police station, and unlike the duty

21 officer of the police station, that person was there to receive telephone

22 calls or was there to hear comments or perhaps information about acts

23 committed and the operations, duty operations officer also assigned

24 officers, policemen, to different jobs, whether they were traffic wardens

25 or the uniformed police, it was his job to give them assignments and to

Page 11937

1 maintain the radio link, to report about the situation on the ground.

2 Q. I'm sorry, I was not really following because I was looking at the

3 transcript, because I do not quite understand this.

4 JUDGE LIU: Wait. We haven't finished the interpretation. Yes,

5 please, Mr. Meek?

6 MR. MEEK: Excuse me, it appears page 16, starting on line 15,

7 it's the witness's answer but it shows it in the record as being a

8 question. I know my lead counsel sometimes asks some lengthy questions

9 but the record should reflect that this is this witness's answer starting

10 on line 15.

11 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. I think both the counsel and the

12 witness should be as concise as possible. That is the questions should be

13 short, the answers should be concise.

14 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Yes, of course.

15 Q. Do you know an individual called Ernest Takac?

16 A. No, I've never heard of him.

17 Q. Do you know Romeo Blazevic?

18 A. Never heard of Romeo Blazevic.

19 THE INTERPRETER: Will the counsel and witness please break

20 between question and answer to avoid any confusion?

21 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

22 Q. And do you know somebody called Ivan Hrkac?

23 A. In Siroki Brijeg there are several people called that.

24 Q. If I tell you that he is the brother of the late Mr. Mario Hrkac,

25 is that the important that you say you know?

Page 11938

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 Q. You mean in 1993?

4 A. No, not in 1993. Later on, 1997, 1998. Because Mr. Hrkac was

5 with the police administration in Hvar, that is with the Ministry of the

6 Interior of the Republic of Croatia, in 1992, because before that, he went

7 to the police academy in Zagreb.

8 Q. When you say Hvar, us mean the island of Hvar in the Republic of

9 Croatia?

10 A. Yes, yes, that's what I mean.

11 Q. And how long was he a policeman in the Republic of Croatia?

12 A. When he completed the police academy, he got a job with the police

13 administration on the island of Hvar in the county of Dalmatia. And I

14 know that until the beginning of 1994, he worked for that police

15 administration, as a law enforcement officer or rather a uniformed

16 policeman.

17 Q. Does this gentleman have a nickname?

18 A. Oh, yes, sure, "Zdral" and he earned that nickname when he was

19 still a boy. Because he's a man who loved animals and he was very fond of

20 birds, and he grew birds at home.

21 Q. So he was called "Zdral"?

22 A. Yes, it is the crane, and cranes when they migrate and they reach

23 those areas at a certain period of time, near Siroki Brijeg, there are two

24 large fields.

25 Q. No, no, no. We don't have to go into that. Simply his nickname

Page 11939

1 was Zdral and he was named after a crane, after the bird which is

2 crane. I hope the interpreters will be able to interpret that.

3 And who was called Cikota?

4 A. His brother, late Mario Hrkac.

5 Q. Witness, we heard testimony here that the three of those we've

6 just mentioned, ruthlessly mistreated in your detention rooms the detained

7 persons of Muslim ethnicity?

8 A. That's a lie. It simply could not happen, because I say that I

9 spent most days and most nights in the Siroki Brijeg police station,

10 because we took shifts sleeping, so there were always several people on

11 duty there. And since I know Mr. Hrkac personally, I affirm that he did

12 not enter the Siroki Brijeg police station at the time and it is ludicrous

13 to say that, because at that time he was working for the police

14 administration on the island of Hvar so how could he be at the same time

15 in the Siroki Brijeg police station? We are a serious institution, I mean

16 that is the police. And such an institution could not allow anyone access

17 to the police premises to somebody who would go in and then mistreat

18 somebody there.

19 Q. Tell me, -- no, my first question. Do you know Mr. Mladen

20 Naletilic?

21 A. Yes, I do know Mr. Mladen Naletilic even though he does not know

22 me.

23 Q. You mean you know who he is but you never met him?

24 A. I never met him, but we all know Mr. Mladen Naletilic, and I used

25 to see him around in Siroki Brijeg, but also before the war, long before

Page 11940

1 the war, I heard about Mr. Naletilic.

2 Q. Did he enter the police station?

3 A. Impossible, because he had no business there. I told you that the

4 police is exclusively responsible for the police station and it is under

5 its exclusive jurisdiction.

6 Q. Tell me, could he order them to get there, to be brought there and

7 be kept there, those detainees?

8 A. He couldn't. How could he order? He did not have any kind of

9 jurisdiction over the civilian police. It was only the military police

10 who could do that.

11 Q. And did Mladen Naletilic interview them in the police station?

12 A. Ridiculous. If he didn't enter the police station, then he didn't

13 interview them. And he couldn't enter, because otherwise, his name would

14 have been entered in the logbook, as I have already mentioned.

15 Q. Tell me, do you know what the Convicts Battalion is?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Did the Convicts Battalion had jurisdiction over that police

18 station?

19 A. That's again incomprehensible.

20 Q. Maybe to you but we have to explain all that.

21 A. I say that the only jurisdiction over the civilian police belonged

22 to the MUP of Bosnia-Herzegovina in Mostar, nobody else.

23 Q. Do you know if the Convicts Battalion had its own detention unit?

24 A. No. I already said that the only detention strong rooms were in

25 the civilian police and in the military police in Siroki Brijeg, that's

Page 11941

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 11942

1 all.

2 Q. Can I ask Madam Registrar to give us D1/342, and then the exhibit,

3 the Prosecution Exhibit 26.9? [In English] Put it on the ELMO, please.

4 Maybe the last picture is the best, the last one, yeah, the last one.

5 Q. [interpretation] Can you tell the Honourable Court what is in the

6 photo? Can you sharpen it a little? Can you focus it a little? You can

7 look at the one in front of you. You don't have to look at the screen.

8 A. Can I take it in my hands? This is the military police building,

9 and before the war, it was the committee building which is in the vicinity

10 of the civilian police, and this is where the strong rooms of the military

11 police were.

12 Q. What committee? You mentioned a committee.

13 A. That was the party committee of the League of Communists.

14 Q. And now the second exhibit, 26.9? Can you please take the pointer

15 in your hand? It works like an antenna. You can extend it. First, are

16 you familiar with the photo? Do you know what it represents?

17 A. Yes. It is the tobacco station in Siroki Brijeg.

18 Q. Can you please show me the buildings -- the buildings in which the

19 army was, the buildings?

20 A. There were no troops there, just the command, commands of certain

21 units.

22 Q. Can you show me where the commands were?

23 A. [Indicates]

24 Q. And tell me which commands, which army was in that building?

25 A. The command of -- I'm sorry.

Page 11943

1 THE INTERPRETER: I'm sorry, the witness is too far from the

2 microphone. The interpreter didn't catch that.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So the Home Guard units, the

4 civilian protection of the Siroki Brijeg Brigade.

5 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Bos?

6 MR. BOS: He pointed at a house and I'm not really sure whether

7 the transcript it was correctly reflected.

8 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik would you please have the witness mark

9 it?

10 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Certainly, Your Honours, because of

11 you, Your Honours, I wanted to resolve the enigma of the tobacco station,

12 so we will discuss every one of these buildings because the witness lives

13 there and is familiar with the area.

14 Q. Can you please encircle the building which housed the commands and

15 mark it with number 1, but not on the exhibit?

16 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Madam Registrar, can he put it

17 on this exhibit? Maybe -- no, this picture.

18 A. [witness marks].

19 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

20 Q. And now, can you repeat, who was in this building, all the

21 institution that is were in that building?

22 A. The building housed the command of the Siroki Brijeg Brigade --

23 the Siroki Brijeg Brigade, the command of the Poskok Battalion, the

24 command of the Home Guard Battalion, the command of the Convicts

25 Battalion, civilian protection, and the ambulance unit.

Page 11944

1 Q. Did this house also house a detention room or a strong room?

2 A. No. There was no strong room in this building. The only strong

3 rooms in Siroki Brijeg were in the buildings of the military police and

4 the civilian police. These buildings do not have underground rooms. None

5 of these buildings here have basements or underground rooms. These --

6 these buildings, are for that matter devastated.

7 Q. Can you please take the pointer in your hands and can you please

8 point to the buildings which you said were devastated, that do not serve

9 that purpose, and if they don't, since when?

10 A. This building, the entire complex here, the buildings on the

11 flank, the buildings in the courtyard inside, the only building that

12 serves its purpose is this one on the right.

13 Q. Please take a pencil -- the pencil in your hand and mark the

14 buildings which do not serve their purpose which are not being used and

15 mark them by numbers, 1, 2, 3, 4 and so on and so forth?

16 JUDGE CLARK: Mr. Krsnik, there is a word that's been translated

17 as devastated a couple of times and in the sense in which it's been used,

18 it cannot be correct, that there were no cells in the buildings because

19 the buildings had been devastated, devastated is destroyed.

20 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] In Croatian when something is run

21 down, we will say devastated. When something has been abandoned and in a

22 very bad state of repairs, then we will use the word "devastated" but not

23 destroyed, not in the sense that you understand it. So run down,

24 abandoned.

25 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Bos?

Page 11945

1 MR. BOS: Could I ask what the witness now is describing, in what

2 time period are we talking now? Is this all 1993?

3 MR. KRSNIK: All time.

4 MR. BOS: I'd like to be clear, also on the month. Because if he

5 says that this house commanded, which period are we talking about?

6 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Krsnik, you may ask this question to your

7 witness instead of answering it by yourself.

8 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I have not answered. I have allowed

9 my witness to answer all my questions, and I have instructed my witness

10 that all the time we will be talking about 1993, and as for the buildings,

11 the first logical question would be since when have these buildings been

12 abandoned?

13 A. If you'll allow me, I would like to say a few sentences about what

14 the tobacco station is, what did it serve, what purpose it served before

15 the war and what purpose it has served after the war.

16 Q. But before that, can you encircle the building which still serves

17 its purpose, which is still in function? You did say that one of them

18 still -- is still being used. Which one is that?

19 A. So the tobacco station was built, I don't know when exactly, but I

20 believe that it was before World War II. Since in Siroki Brijeg there was

21 practically no industry, quite a number of people went abroad to work

22 there as temporary workers, but people in the villages and in the suburbs

23 of Siroki Brijeg mostly lived from agriculture, given the climate at the

24 agriculture crops which were grown, the only thing that could grow there

25 was tobacco. The tobacco which used to be sold in the tobacco station.

Page 11946

1 This is where the tobacco was traded. Even before the war, the tobacco

2 growers were not paid enough by the tobacco station, so they lost economic

3 motives to engage in the tobacco growing. And that's why nobody was any

4 longer growing tobacco. So that's why nobody was selling it to this

5 tobacco station. A few years before the war, these buildings were

6 abandoned so there was nothing there, and in time, they became run down

7 and obsolete. And these buildings were where tobacco was fermented and

8 dried.

9 Q. Did you please show us the buildings you're talking about and also

10 show us with the pointer which buildings do not have a basement?

11 A. I -- there is nothing to show because none of these buildings have

12 a basement, a cellar. And all these buildings served for the

13 fermentation, i.e. drying of tobacco. But I don't know where the -- where

14 tobacco was packed and repacked.

15 Q. When you said that the building was devastated, i.e. run down, you

16 meant that it did not have any windows or doors?

17 A. These are stone buildings which were built a long time ago. What

18 I meant was the rooms. These rooms have wooden floors and -- and I don't

19 know why, whether it was because of the technology of tobacco drying,

20 whether that is the way it was built at the time.

21 Q. What about the windows and doors, do they exist?

22 A. No. They were broken long time ago. People -- children from the

23 surrounding villages would come here in the evening and play in these

24 buildings.

25 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I believe it's the time

Page 11947

1 for a break, and I would like to inform you that I will finish 15 minutes

2 after the end of the break. I have a few more specific questions, and I

3 will end with those.

4 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. We will resume at 4.00.

5 --- Recess taken at 3.30 p.m.

6 --- On resuming at 4.01 p.m.

7 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik.

8 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Let's just finish with the tobacco station. The building that is

10 still used or was still used, what was it? What was in the building, in

11 the command? No, the other building that you put a circle around?

12 A. Under number 9?

13 Q. Yes, take the pointer and point to the building?

14 A. Do you mean this building?

15 Q. Yes?

16 A. This was the Defence department. It was here even before the war,

17 but before the war it was called the Secretariat for the Defence.

18 Q. Is it that a part of the municipality of Siroki Brijeg? Was that

19 a municipal secretariat or a municipal department?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Here on the right-hand side in the green, greenery here, can you

22 tell us, is this a swimming pool?

23 A. Here?

24 Q. Unfortunately, you can't see it very well?

25 A. Yes, that is the city -- the town swimming pool.

Page 11948

1 Q. Can you show it to us and can you tell us -- was it used and

2 when?

3 A. The swimming pool was built a long time ago and I used to swim in

4 there when I was young, but then it wasn't used for a while, until some

5 two years ago. Then it was re-- renovated and now it is again being

6 used.

7 Q. Can you mark the swimming pool by number 10?

8 A. [marks]

9 Q. I apologise, I had a brief consultation in order to make this

10 examination as efficient as possible. My first question now is about the

11 detainees which were in your building, in the police station. Were they

12 taken to the forced labour?

13 A. No, they were not taken to the forced labour.

14 Q. Do you know, do you personally know, what was going on in the

15 building of the military police? Did these detainees go to work, to

16 forced labour?

17 A. I don't know exactly what went on but I know that they were not

18 taken to the forced labour.

19 Q. Tell me, please, were you at the police station when the military

20 police organs were interviewing these detainees? That's the first

21 question. But let -- first ask me whether they were interviewed in your

22 building or were they taken to their building for interviews?

23 A. They were interviewed in our building on the first floor of the

24 building of the civilian police.

25 Q. During the interview, were the detainees treated correctly? Were

Page 11949

1 you in the room when they were being interviewed?

2 A. We were there tending to our every day duties and we would go from

3 one room to another. We would spend sometime in our office and then we I

4 would see them when they were being taken for interviews, I would see them

5 in the corridors and then when they were taken back.

6 Q. Were they ill-treated or was the behaviour correct?

7 A. They were not ill-treated. If they had, I would have known that.

8 My colleagues would have known that.

9 Q. You mentioned refugees. Let's maybe finish with that. What did

10 you mean when you mentioned refugees?

11 A. Immediately before the Serbian aggression on Mostar, a number of

12 refugees, some several thousand of them, came to the area of Siroki

13 Brijeg.

14 Q. What were their nationality, their ethnicity?

15 A. They were Muslims and Croats. They were accommodated in the areas

16 of Kozice and Medjine. These are two villages with Muslim population.

17 Then in Siroki Brijeg, in the pupil's home, in the church, and in the

18 elementary school in the town.

19 Q. When was that? What year were they there?

20 A. In 1992, after the aggression against Mostar, and in 1993.

21 Q. Throughout the entire 1993?

22 A. I think that they were there until either August or September, I'm

23 not sure.

24 Q. Did they receive the food from this kitchen?

25 A. Yes, from these two kitchens, from the factory and from the --

Page 11950

1 Obnova company.

2 Q. It has just occurred to me to ask you my last question along these

3 lines. We were talking here about the name, Siroki Brijeg. Since when

4 has Siroki Brijeg been called Siroki Brijeg? Has it ever changed its name

5 throughout history, and why?

6 A. Siroki Brijeg has always been called Siroki Brijeg, until 195 -- I

7 think 1952, when the then communist government changed its name to

8 Listica. Listica is the river that flows through the centre of Siroki

9 Brijeg.

10 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Witness. I have no

11 further questions for you. Thank you very much for coming here.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13 JUDGE LIU: Any -- no? Yes, Mr. Bos, for your cross-examination?

14 MR. BOS: Thank you, Your Honour.

15 Cross-examined by Mr. Bos:

16 Q. Good afternoon, Witness, my name is Roland Bos and I will ask you

17 some questions this afternoon on behalf of the Prosecution?

18 A. Good afternoon, Prosecutor.

19 Q. Witness, let's discuss the prisoners who arrived on the 10th of

20 May. You stated that on the 10th of May, a group of Muslim prisoners

21 arrived in Siroki Brijeg and that the military police came to the

22 civilian -- to the MUP station and asked that some of these Muslim

23 prisoners could be taken in your office; is that correct? In the cell of

24 your office?

25 A. That is correct.

Page 11951

1 Q. Was there any prior notice that these prisoners -- that these

2 POWs, the POWs would be arriving?

3 A. I don't know whether there was any prior notice. I know that on

4 their arrival, they actually contacted the chief of the police

5 administration.

6 Q. Who contacted the chief of the police administration?

7 A. A representative of the military police.

8 Q. And during that contact, there was a request to take some of these

9 prisoners in the MUP station; is that correct?

10 A. That is correct. We were briefed, which was subsequently conveyed

11 by the chief of the police administration.

12 Q. Was there any objection by the chief of the police to take these

13 prisoners? Because I would assume it's not a really normal situation that

14 a civilian police would take prisoners of war in their cells.

15 A. I don't know whether in their conversation any objections were

16 raised. However, under the law, the military police has the right to

17 bring in certain persons if there are indications that they had

18 perpetrated a crime. I've already said that given the fact that these

19 were the only detention facilities in Siroki Brijeg, that that is why

20 these detainees were put there.

21 Q. Now, if you say that under the law they had a right to detain

22 prisoners, I would assume that it's to detain prisoners at their own

23 facilities, not at facilities of the civilian police.

24 A. I was only talking about detention, which is allowed under the

25 law. About keeping somebody in custody.

Page 11952

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 11953

1 Q. Witness, if I say that during a wartime situation, if a military

2 police is requesting the civilian police to take prisoners in their

3 detention cells, is that something that would normally be accepted, given

4 the wartime situation? So in other words, would the military police have

5 authority over the civilian police in that sense?

6 A. The military police did not have any jurisdiction over the

7 civilian police.

8 Q. But on the 10th of May these prisoners arrived without any

9 hesitations, these people were detained at the civilian police, that's

10 correct, isn't it?

11 A. I've already said that a representative of the military police

12 talked with the chief of the police administration. And the chief of the

13 police administration is duty-bound to notify his ministry, and he said

14 that he had obtained the consent of the Ministry of the Interior.

15 Q. Who was the commander of the police station in Siroki Brijeg?

16 What was his name?

17 A. Mr. Danko Bilinovac.

18 Q. Did he also have a nickname by the name of "Cane," C-A-N-E?

19 A. Cane.

20 Q. Cane, sorry. That was his nickname?

21 A. Yes, it was.

22 Q. Could the witness be shown Prosecution Exhibit 26.4, 26.7 and

23 26.8, please? First 26.4. Witness, do you recognise what's reflected on

24 this photograph?

25 A. Yes. This is the building of the Siroki Brijeg police station.

Page 11954

1 Q. And if you now also could look at -- I think they are in front of

2 you -- Exhibits 26.7 and 26.8, do you recognise what's reflected on those

3 photographs?

4 A. I do. These are the detention rooms in the Siroki Brijeg police

5 station.

6 Q. So it's your testimony that in both these cells, there were four

7 prisoners, correct?

8 A. Yes. I say that that is so.

9 Q. Do you know the name of any of the prisoners that were kept at the

10 MUP station? And if you know any names, maybe we could go into private

11 session.

12 A. No, I don't know any.

13 Q. Then we don't need to go into private session. Now, Witness, I'd

14 like to make a few things clear. First of all, how long did these

15 prisoners stay at the MUP station? Do you know that? Let's say that they

16 arrived on the 10th of May. How long did they stay?

17 A. I cannot say exactly, eight to ten days. Not more than ten days.

18 Q. And according to your testimony, they did not leave the MUP

19 station during that period? They -- during that period, they remained

20 within the MUP station all the time?

21 A. No, that is not how I put it.

22 Q. Did they actually sometimes leave the MUP station?

23 A. After a few days, after they had been brought from Mostar and

24 detained there, the military police came and now I don't know exactly but

25 I believe they took away three or four detainees so that six or seven men

Page 11955

1 remained under detention. And they came out, I have already said that,

2 they came out of the detention rooms, because -- to go to the toilet. And

3 the lavatory and shower booths which were used by the civilian police when

4 they changed shifts, that is when they would come back, so they also used

5 those facilities when they needed them, that is to relieve themselves

6 or to have a shower.

7 Q. I think you misunderstood the question you say that they left the

8 cells but did they also leave the building when they were detained. Did

9 the military police ever take them out of the building?

10 A. The military police would come from time to time and take away two

11 to three men, and then bring them back.

12 Q. So they would be taken away in the morning and then come back in

13 the evening?

14 A. No, no, no. It would be -- they would be absent for a few hours.

15 According to the military police, they took them to military investigating

16 authority, that is what they would tell us when they took the detainees

17 out.

18 Q. And during those ten days, the eight to ten days that these

19 prisoners were kept at the MUP station, how many of those days were you

20 actually at the MUP station?

21 A. I believe that of those eight or ten days, while I cannot be

22 quite -- cannot say quite exactly, but perhaps I was not in the building

23 one day, maybe two days.

24 Q. And all these other days, you were there during the day and during

25 the night as well, as you testified, that you would actually sleep there

Page 11956

1 as well?

2 A. Yes. That's true. I mean yes, by day and by night, I would come

3 out into the passage with the uniformed police because we were very few in

4 number, so that -- so that very few people went out on patrol so there was

5 always somebody in the building.

6 Q. Let me just ask how many police officers would normally work in

7 this -- in this office?

8 A. Could you clarify, please, Mr. Prosecutor?

9 Q. You said you had the uniformed police and then -- well, you had

10 the commander and I don't know whether there were any other functions but

11 the total group of persons working in that building, how many people were

12 they?

13 A. I do not know the exact number, but the criminal investigation

14 branch, service, there were five of us. And the uniformed force, I

15 believe ten, maybe 15 men.

16 Q. It was the uniformed force who were actually guarding the

17 prisoners, correct?

18 A. It is.

19 Q. You said that these prisoners were interviewed by the military

20 police in the MUP station. How often were these prisoners interviewed?

21 Was it on a daily basis?

22 A. No, not on a daily basis. At times, two days in a row, and then

23 there would be a break, and then it would start again.

24 Q. Were they always interviewed during the day or also sometimes

25 during the night?

Page 11957

1 A. Always -- no, mostly by day but I would allow also that they came

2 at night too. I think as far as I can remember, that they came one night.

3 Q. And when they would interview these witnesses at night, from what

4 time to what time would this interview be conducted?

5 A. Since I said I remembered that they only one night came, it means

6 that there were no more interviews by night.

7 Q. Well, during that particular night, from what time to what time

8 was the interview conducted?

9 A. As far as I can remember, it could have been between 8.00 and half

10 past 9.00, not after 10.00.

11 Q. So you're saying that the interview would have stopped before

12 10.00?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Did you know where these prisoners were taken after they were

15 taken out of the MUP station?

16 A. Mr. Prosecutor, can you clarify what you mean? Do you mean the --

17 those early days when three or four were taken away or when they were

18 finally taken away.

19 Q. No. When they were finally taken away. Do you know where they

20 were taken?

21 A. To the military investigating prison in Ljubuski.

22 Q. After this period, was this the only time that prisoners were kept

23 at the MUP station, or were there other occasions where prisoners of war

24 were kept at the MUP station, to your knowledge?

25 A. That was the only time, I know that definitely.

Page 11958

1 Q. So none of these prisoners who were kept at the MUP station at

2 that time, you ever saw coming back again at the MUP station?

3 A. I did not, no.

4 Q. Now, you testified that you knew Mr. Mladen Naletilic, Tuta, and

5 that he was a well known person in Siroki Brijeg, that everybody in Siroki

6 Brijeg knew him. How come that everybody in Siroki Brijeg knew Mr. Tuta?

7 A. Mr. Tuta came to the area of Siroki Brijeg, or rather I saw him in

8 early 1992 for the first time, but a number of people knew about him even

9 before the war, because he had donated various things to Siroki Brijeg. I

10 know personally, at the time when I was an active athlete that he used to

11 send donations, that is he used to send sports gear to clubs in Siroki

12 Brijeg, except for the youngest members.

13 THE INTERPRETER: Excuse me, interpreters' correction especially

14 for the youngest members of those clubs.

15 A. I know that he provided funds for the St. Anthony's chapel at the

16 entrance to Siroki Brijeg, and since in Siroki Brijeg, or rather in all

17 those, in this whole area, people are very religious, large numbers of

18 people attended evening services in front of this chapel because

19 St. Anthony is particularly appreciated, held in -- particularly revered

20 in Siroki Brijeg.

21 Q. Witness, if you say that he sent donations, from where did he send

22 these donations? Where was he when he sent these donations?

23 A. I'm not sure. I think Germany, I think, but I'm not sure.

24 Q. All right. Let's talk about Tuta now in 1992 and 1993, during the

25 war. What was Tuta's role in this war, as far as you know?

Page 11959

1 A. I do not know what his role in the war was. All I know is that he

2 is one of the founder of the Convicts Battalion.

3 Q. You said that you saw him -- you never spoke with him but you saw

4 him sometimes in Siroki Brijeg; is that correct?

5 A. Yes, it is.

6 Q. When you saw him, did he ever wear a military uniform or a

7 camouflage uniform?

8 A. I never saw Mr. Naletilic in a uniform.

9 Q. Now, Witness, in the direct examination, you were asked about this

10 man Ivan Hrkac, and you seemed to know him pretty well. And apparently,

11 his brother is Mario Hrkac; is that correct? And his nickname is Cikota,

12 no?

13 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat the answer?

14 MR. BOS:

15 Q. Could you repeat the answer? The interpreters didn't catch the --

16 A. I haven't answered yet. I haven't answered. You were asking me

17 about Mario Hrkac, is it?

18 JUDGE DIARRA: [Interpretation] The interpreters are asking you to

19 repeat your answer.

20 MR. BOS:

21 Q. I have to repeat my question and you have to repeat the answer for

22 the interpreters. Now, is it correct that Mr. Mario Hrkac's nickname was

23 Cikota?

24 A. Yes, it is correct. The late Mario Hrkac was nicknamed Cikota.

25 Q. Did you know -- you mentioned him as the late Mario Hrkac. Did

Page 11960

1 you know what happened to him?

2 A. I know he was killed sometime around the 20th of April, 1993, in

3 the area of Jablanica.

4 Q. Did you attend his funeral?

5 A. Yes, I did.

6 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please come closer to the

7 microphone?

8 MR. BOS: You have to come a bit closer to the microphone.

9 Q. Do you know whether Mr. Tuta was also present at that funeral?

10 A. Yes, yes, he was.

11 Q. Did you see him on that day?

12 A. I did.

13 MR. BOS: Could the witness be shown Exhibit P36.1, please? You

14 can put that on the overhead projector, please.

15 Q. Witness, do you recognise any of these people who are depicted on

16 this photograph?

17 A. I do, yes.

18 Q. Could you tell me who you recognise and could you point them to --

19 with the pointer?

20 A. This is General Praljak. Mr. Vice Vukojevic. General Ivan

21 Andabak. Mr. Mladen Naletilic.

22 Q. What is Mr. Mladen Naletilic wearing?

23 A. Well, the photograph is not particularly clear, but it could be an

24 army uniform.

25 Q. Now, let's move on to the tobacco station, and maybe we can put

Page 11961

1 Exhibit 26.9, which was already marked by the witness, on the overhead

2 projector.

3 Now, Witness, you seem to have quite some knowledge about this

4 tobacco station. How often would you visit this complex? And I'm talking

5 now specifically about the period 1993. Did you ever visit at the complex

6 in that year?

7 A. Yes, a couple of times.

8 Q. Let's be more specific. Let's say from the period May, 1993, to

9 December 1993, so more the second half of 1993, how often would you visit

10 this complex?

11 A. I don't remember. Could have been a few times. I cannot give you

12 the exact number.

13 Q. What were the reasons for you to visit that complex?

14 A. Because I knew Mr. Marinko Mikulic, who was the head of the

15 Defence Department, and I knew Mr. Vlado Maric, too. He was the commander

16 of the Poskok Battalion.

17 Q. Which particular building would you then visit if you would be

18 there?

19 A. I was in this building once, and this one here, I visited that one

20 once or twice.

21 Q. In that building which you first indicated, you've stated that

22 also the Convicts Battalion had their headquarters there. Who do you know

23 from the Convicts Battalion was in that office, or you don't know, or do

24 you not know any names?

25 A. Yes, yes. Mr. Ivan Andabak.

Page 11962

1 Q. Any other people?

2 A. Whom do you mean? Will you please explain? Who do you have in

3 mind?

4 Q. Well, did any other people from the Convicts Battalion held office

5 there of which you know the name?

6 A. I do not have that knowledge, no. Only Ivan Andabak had the

7 office there, otherwise, I do not know.

8 Q. You've stated that the Home Guard Battalion also had an office

9 there; is that correct?

10 A. Yes. Well, I cannot really know about the terminology -- I'm not

11 sure about the terminology. Volunteer, either volunteers or the Home

12 Guards. I think Home Guards.

13 Q. What was the role of the Home Guards? What was their function?

14 A. As far as I know, their function was to guard their houses in

15 their neighbourhoods, they didn't go to front lines outside their

16 neighbourhoods. They places, they were there to guard their homes, their

17 homesteads, their neighbourhoods.

18 Q. Did the Home Guards have any role in guarding prisoners in Siroki

19 Brijeg, as far as you know?

20 A. No. I do not know anything about that.

21 Q. So they would only guard the homes, and they had nothing to do

22 with guarding the prisoners?

23 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik?

24 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I have not had too many interventions

25 because this cross-examination has been very connected. I just wanted to

Page 11963

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 11964

1 say that the witness has misunderstood the question. I'm listening to the

2 Croatian interpretation. The way the witness interpreted was what was the

3 general role of the Home Guards. And I believe that my learned friend

4 wanted to find out about the role of the Home Guard in Siroki Brijeg. So

5 can you repeat the question and explain whether you -- what you had in

6 mind was just Siroki Brijeg and the Home Guard of Siroki Brijeg or

7 generally speaking the Home Guard units?

8 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Bos?

9 MR. BOS: Well, the witness testified in chief that the Home Guard

10 was situated in the tobacco station.

11 Q. Which Home Guard was situated in the tobacco station?

12 A. I didn't say that it was any particular Home Guard Battalion. I

13 said that it was just their command.

14 Q. The command of what unit? I mean we are not talking -- was that

15 the command of the specific unit of the Siroki Brijeg Home Guard or the

16 command of the general Home Guard which was in the tobacco station?

17 A. This is the first time I hear that the Home Guard had any special

18 units at all. I'm talking generally.

19 Q. All right.

20 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the question, I think,

21 should have been put which command of which brigade was in that particular

22 building, and it would be clear. I believe that the witness doesn't

23 actually understand the question.

24 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Bos, if you believe that is important, you

25 may ask some specific questions on this very issue.

Page 11965

1 MR. BOS: Yes, I do believe it's important. All right. We will

2 have to be a bit more specific, then.

3 Q. Well, Witness, let's go step by step. You've stated in your

4 testimony in chief that there was a Home Guard Brigade stationed at the

5 tobacco station; is that correct?

6 A. Yes. That was the Siroki Brijeg Brigade, which originated from

7 these battalions, the Poskok Battalion and the other three I mentioned. I

8 meant the Siroki Brijeg Brigade.

9 Q. So it's the Siroki Brijeg Home Brigade and it's your testimony

10 that the Siroki Brijeg Home Brigade had nothing to do with prisoners

11 but they would only guard the homes in Siroki Brijeg; is that correct?

12 A. But of course. I'm only -- I can only refer to the period of the

13 month of May. You have already asked me about that, and I don't know

14 which detainees are you referring to. I don't know of any other detainees

15 ever being detained there.

16 Q. Do you know who the commander of this Home Guard Brigade was?

17 A. Now that I understand your question, I've -- all the time I'm

18 talking about the Siroki Brijeg Brigade, and I think it was Mr. Cavar, as

19 far as I know.

20 Q. And does the name Jablanica mean anything to you?

21 A. Of course. It's a little town on the road from Sarajevo to

22 Mostar.

23 Q. I'm not talking about the village Jablanica but about a person

24 named Jablanica. Maybe I spelled it wrong, or maybe it's a nickname.

25 A. No. I don't know any such person. I don't know a person under

Page 11966

1 that name.

2 Q. All right. Let's briefly look back at the photograph. That will

3 be my final questions. Witness, under -- under number 8, the building

4 marked under number 8 do you know what was -- who was stationed in that

5 building?

6 A. I wouldn't know.

7 Q. Did you ever visit that building?

8 A. Yes. I know where the building is. I would go to the Defence

9 Department but I did not enter this building.

10 Q. You never entered this building?

11 A. No.

12 MR. BOS: I have no further questions, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Any re-examination?

14 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Briefly.

15 Re-examined by Mr. Krsnik:

16 Q. [Interpretation] In the cross-examination, the Prosecutor asked

17 you whether there were any other detainees, military personnel, were they

18 ever detained in the civilian police. If there were any detainees that

19 belonged to the army, who may have committed some crimes, where would they

20 be taken to? Where were they interviewed? If it was a military person,

21 regardless of whether it was the BH Army or the HVO?

22 A. Only in the detention cells of the military police.

23 Q. My second question: Can you tell the Honourable Court the person

24 whom you know under the name Vice Vukojevic whom you recognise. Do you

25 know what is his -- what he is today?

Page 11967

1 A. Yes, I know that he is one of the judges of the constitutional

2 court of the Republic of Croatia.

3 Q. Another question about the funeral: How many people attended

4 Mr. Mario Hrkac's funeral?

5 A. Several thousand people. That was absolutely the biggest funeral

6 in the area.

7 Q. Did you personally see Mr. Naletilic or did you hear that he was

8 there, or did you see him personally?

9 A. Yes. I saw him personally.

10 Q. That would be all. I have no further questions. Thank you.

11 JUDGE LIU: Questions from Judges? Judge Clark?

12 Questioned by the Court:

13 JUDGE CLARK: Witness, can I ask you about the duties of the civil

14 police at the MUP station? Is it your evidence that when these detainees

15 arrived, whatever their status, that the civilian police had some role in

16 relation to their welfare?

17 A. The only role they had was to guard them and that was it, to

18 assist them with their every day needs. That was food, hygiene, and so on

19 and so forth.

20 JUDGE CLARK: Well, if we ignore for a moment the detainees that

21 came to the station on the 10th of May, you described how there would be a

22 duty officer at the station. Do you recall that?

23 A. Yes. That was a duty officer which also was there in the peace

24 time. Every police station has a duty officer who receives reports,

25 either over the telephone or if people came to the station in person.

Page 11968

1 JUDGE CLARK: Was it the function of this duty officer to record

2 in the logbook any visitors who came to visit a detainee, a prisoner,

3 somebody in custody?

4 A. I already said that the duty of the officer, of the duty officer,

5 was to record anybody's entry into the police station and the reason for

6 their being there.

7 JUDGE CLARK: On this particular eight or ten days that you

8 described to us, would the duty officer have kept a record every time one

9 of the detainees was removed for interrogation or every time a military

10 policeman came to interrogate him?

11 A. Yes. Every such event was recorded in the logbook.

12 JUDGE CLARK: Now, in a police station in my country, the duty

13 officer has a function to ensure that the person whose liberty is being

14 taken away, the person who arrives under arrest at the police station, is

15 informed of certain rights. I'm not saying that that happened during the

16 war. But the duty officer has to record the person's name, his date of

17 birth, his height, and his condition. Is that the situation or was that

18 the situation in your police station?

19 A. I already said that the exclusive jurisdiction over these

20 detainees belonged to the military police. And that the duty officer

21 was -- it was his duty to record people entering the police station, every

22 time somebody entered the police station.

23 JUDGE CLARK: Well, would he have entered the name of a military

24 policeman who came for the purpose of interviewing a certain detainee?

25 A. Yes.

Page 11969

1 JUDGE CLARK: So can we take it that the name of the interrogating

2 officer and the name of the person being interrogated would have been

3 recorded?

4 A. Yes.

5 JUDGE CLARK: Are the logbooks annual log books or do you start an

6 anyone as soon as the last page is completed in the existing logbook?

7 A. When you complete the last page, you open a new logbook.

8 JUDGE CLARK: And what happens to the completed log books?

9 A. It is then archived.

10 JUDGE CLARK: Do you know who is in charge or who was in charge of

11 the archives?

12 A. The chief of the police administration had the exclusive

13 jurisdiction and the person in charge of the archives.

14 JUDGE CLARK: You suggested to Mr. Krsnik when you were giving

15 your evidence that these documents can be produced. So obviously you know

16 how to gain access to these a -- archives. It can't be very difficult?

17 A. No, it's not difficult. You can gain access to them at any given

18 moment.

19 JUDGE CLARK: I hope the Defence and the Prosecution are

20 listening. Thank you very much.

21 JUDGE LIU: Judge Diarra?

22 JUDGE DIARRA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. Witness,

23 I would like to ask you the following thing. You knew about the presence

24 of Mr. Naletilic at the beginning of 1992. According to your own words,

25 he was a well-known, because of the donations that he gave to the

Page 11970

1 population and even the church there. In addition to that, did he engage

2 in other activities? Did he have any other, to your knowledge, things

3 that he engaged in?

4 A. As far as I know, he didn't engage in anything.

5 JUDGE DIARRA: [Interpretation] You have said that he was one of

6 the founders of the Convicts Battalion. At the level of that battalion,

7 what was his role, according to what you know?

8 A. As far as I know, in that battalion, he was only looking after his

9 men, after his families, the families of the soldiers who were at the time

10 on the first front lines, the families which had been left behind on their

11 own, and the families of the fallen soldiers.

12 JUDGE DIARRA: [Interpretation] He didn't have any other activity

13 in the command, in the coordination? He only looked after the families of

14 the soldiers? Is that what you're saying?

15 A. Yes. As far as I know, that was correct.

16 JUDGE DIARRA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. I don't have

17 any further questions.

18 JUDGE LIU: Any questions out of Judges' questions? Yes,

19 Mr. Krsnik?

20 Further examination by Mr. Krsnik:

21 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Just one. To follow up on Her Honour

22 Judge Diarra.

23 Q. Do you know that in 1992, in the -- what was going on in Siroki

24 Brijeg in 1991, 1992, the Serbian aggression, did Mr. Naletilic play a

25 role at that time, to your knowledge?

Page 11971

1 A. He may have played a role of a coordinator during the Serbian

2 aggression, but if you're implying to a command role or participation in

3 that, I think it's ridiculous, it would be ridiculous to expect of

4 somebody of his age to ramble around the hills and command any military

5 operations.

6 Q. I just wanted to hear from you personally what you knew, not what

7 you heard.

8 A. I don't know that he ever took part in any command operations.

9 Q. You mean the direct command operations on the first front line?

10 A. Yes, that's what I mean.

11 Q. And during the Serbian aggression, what was the situation like in

12 Siroki Brijeg? How far did the Serbian forces -- how close they came to

13 Siroki Brijeg?

14 A. They were in the surrounding hills, some half an hour from Siroki

15 Brijeg.

16 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I have no further questions. I just

17 wanted to ask my witness whether he is aware of any activity in Siroki

18 Brijeg with regard to Mr. Naletilic. That's it.

19 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Boss?

20 MR. BOS: Just a few questions, Your Honour.

21 Further cross-examination by Mr. Bos.

22 Q. Witness you just answered in response to my learned colleague, let

23 me just look at the transcript, that he may have played a coordinating

24 role in the Serbian aggression. What do you mean by coordinating role or

25 coordinator?

Page 11972

1 A. You have then misunderstood me.

2 Q. Well, I'm just reading the transcript. That's what it said.

3 A. What I meant is that he, as one of the founders, that he maybe

4 wanted to know what was going on, what was happening to his men, the men

5 that he looked after. That's what I meant. That he wanted to be informed

6 about any operations that ...

7 Q. Now, from answering the questions of Judge Clark, is it your

8 testimony that in Siroki Brijeg, the controlling and care of prisoners and

9 detained persons, that was all very clearly regulated and that procedures

10 were strictly followed and that there was nothing vague or non-clear about

11 the control of the prisoners and who was responsible for that? Is that

12 your testimony?

13 A. Yes. I repeat that. I've already said it. Everything was

14 correct.

15 Q. You were talking about the archives. Where are these archives

16 where these logbooks are kept?

17 A. I left and joined the police in Mostar. I believe that it must be

18 either in the police administration in Siroki Brijeg or the relevant MUP

19 of the Western Herzegovina county in--

20 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the name of the

21 place.

22 MR. BOS:

23 Q. The last word? Could you repeat that last sentence because the

24 interpreter didn't catch the last word, the county in?

25 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not catch the seat of that

Page 11973

1 county, the name of the seat of that county.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the MUP of the relevant county,

3 so it can be either in Siroki Brijeg or in the seat of the Western

4 Herzegovina county.

5 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] The Prosecutor asked to you repeat

6 the name of the town in the Western Herzegovina?

7 A. That is Ljubuski. That is the seat of the Western Herzegovina

8 county.

9 MR. BOS: Thank you.

10 JUDGE LIU: Well, thank you, Witness. Thank you for your -- to

11 come here to give your evidence. When the usher pulls the blinds down, he

12 will show you out of the room. We all wish you good luck in your future.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, and I wish you the same.

14 [The witness withdrew]

15 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Meek?

16 MR. MEEK: Mr. President, Your Honours, I would like to just

17 tender Exhibit D1/342, the exhibit that has three photographs. I also

18 formerly P26.9 as marked by Witness NG will have a new number. D1/43.

19 JUDGE LIU: Any objections?

20 MR. BOS: No objections from the Prosecution side, and we don't

21 have any exhibits to tender.

22 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. So those two documents are admitted into

23 evidence.

24 MR. MEEK: Thank you, Mr. President, Your Honours.

25 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Krsnik, are you ready for your next witness?

Page 11974

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 11975

1 MR. KRSNIK: I must be ready and I'm always ready.

2 JUDGE LIU: Yes, are there any protect -- protective measures for

3 the next witness?

4 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I am very tired. Can I

5 ask for a break? And then if we can proceed with the witness, and the

6 protective measures that I'm asking for are face distortion and a

7 pseudonym, if that may be granted.

8 JUDGE LIU: Yes. I believe there is no objections from the side

9 of the Prosecution so your request for protective measures is granted.

10 And we will take an early break and we will resume at 20 minutes

11 to 6.00.

12 --- Recess taken at 5.11 p.m.

13 --- On resuming at 5.44 p.m.

14 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

15 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we go into

16 private session for a moment, please?

17 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Scott, are you going to ask for closed

18 session?

19 MR. SCOTT: No, Your Honour.

20 THE INTERPRETER: Your microphone, Mr. Scott.

21 MR. SCOTT: It is just one matter.

22 JUDGE LIU: Maybe I could ask you to take the floor first.

23 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour I'm only doing this because I know at

24 7.00, everyone is anxious to leave and I don't want to hold anyone up.

25 Yesterday, Mr. President, Your Honours, the Chamber requested, invited

Page 11976

1 submissions in connection with the structure and workings of the state of

2 Bosnia-Herzegovina. The Prosecution has filed today and provided copies

3 to the Defence and I provided a binder for each of you, Your Honours, it

4 looks like this, submitting materials on Bosnia and Herzegovina, the

5 Dayton Peace Plan, and the structure of the current state.

6 JUDGE LIU: Well, thank you very much but I did not expect that --

7 it's a bundle.

8 MR. SCOTT: Well, Your Honour, when you invite it, we give it to

9 you.

10 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Shall we go to the private session?

11 [Private session]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 11977

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [Open session]

6 [The witness entered court].

7 JUDGE LIU: Good afternoon, Witness.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

9 JUDGE LIU: Would you please make the solemn declaration, please?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

11 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

12 WITNESS: WITNESS NH

13 [Witness answered through interpreter].

14 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. You may sit down, please.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik.

17 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] First, the technical booth, could we

18 have the ELMO down, please?

19 Examined by Mr. Krsnik:

20 Q. Sir, to begin with, good afternoon, Witness. I have already

21 informed Their Honours about the complaints that you are suffering from,

22 and if you have any problems, please let us know and we shall make a

23 break. Are you all right now? Are you feeling all right?

24 THE INTERPRETER: The witness nods.

25 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

Page 11978

1 Q. First I must ask you, look at the monitor in front of you, and

2 this is what I'm saying to every witness, you see that black dot which is

3 moving, so look at it. When it stops, then you can start speaking. The

4 most important is that we do not speak over one another, because then the

5 interpreters cannot follow. So find some average speed because if you're

6 too fast, the interpreters will warn you. So try to -- not to go too slow

7 but still, don't be too fast either.

8 Now you will be shown a sheet of paper with your name there but do

9 not utter your name aloud, just tell us if that is in your name?

10 A. Yes, it is.

11 Q. Can we now go into private session, the private session means

12 nobody else can hear you but those present in the courtroom. That is what

13 the private session is. Nobody else will know what we are talking about?

14 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we will go to the private session, please.

15 [Private session]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 11979

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Page 11979 redacted private session

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 11980

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [Open session]

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, in those hard times, which

16 struck the area that I lived in, that my co-nationals lived, we had to do

17 something in order to be able to function. Grave things happened. A war

18 happened, an unwanted war, a war which brought -- which affected all

19 peoples in a horrible way. The war started, suffering started, a large

20 number of refugees came to Siroki Brijeg, panic spread, and one needed to

21 somehow calm the situation down, do something so that people could start

22 functioning again. My friends, people of prestige in the municipality of

23 Siroki Brijeg, together with politicians who were in Siroki Brijeg at that

24 time, and I talked about what we could do, because we are all responsible

25 for that state of affairs, and we simply had to do something. And it

Page 11981

1 befell -- it came to my lot, even though it could have been any other of

2 those men whom I see on this list, and who are my closest associates, but,

3 well, simply, I became the president of the municipal council, the mayor

4 of Siroki Brijeg. So it was a voluntary office and I managed to persuade,

5 and they were also ready to help the town, various gentlemen including the

6 gentleman who is present here in the dock, Mr. Mladen Naletilic, and my

7 friends, Mr. Ante Banozic and -- for Bosnia-Herzegovina, Mr. -- Other

8 gentlemen, and a professional team headed by Mr. Zdravko Kutle who was

9 responsibility for economic affairs, Mrs. Zdravka Bevanda, who was

10 responsible for general affairs. Mr. Mario Kraljevic for financial

11 affairs. Mr. Danko Bilinovac, who held an office in the Ministry of the

12 Interior, Mr. Marinko Mikulic, the Defence department, and the only party

13 man that was representative of the HDZ was Mr. Zdenko Cosic, these four

14 persons, the first four, were all volunteers and those others were

15 professionals.

16 Q. And of all those people, only one was politically active. None of

17 the others were members of any political party, is that it?

18 A. Not one of them, except the last one, Zdenko Cosic, not one of

19 those others were members of any political party.

20 Q. And Mr. Naletilic held what office?

21 A. Mr. Naletilic, in view of his experience from the war in Croatia,

22 that is the war against the Serbs, was responsible for the logistics and

23 provided the link with the units which were in the area of Siroki Brijeg

24 at the time. As a war veteran he helped us a great deal to organise it.

25 Q. Will you please be so kind and tell us briefly, you said that the

Page 11982

1 situation was chaotic, but briefly, because I'd like us to finish today,

2 if possible, perhaps you could tell the Court what was so chaotic in

3 Siroki Brijeg? And how did you then organise the civilian life? What was

4 your principal concern?

5 A. Well, naturally, after the military operations, everywhere in the

6 world, and that includes our area, a large number of refugees whom we

7 accommodated in our area, in the area of Siroki Brijeg, so that our sports

8 halls, our schools, our families, took in those wretched people who had to

9 be fed, who had to be provided with a roof over their heads and as you

10 know, in a house, there is always a person and we have to bear this in --

11 who is somebody who is responsible for that family. And as a mayor, it

12 was my job to see to it that they did not go hungry, that they were

13 protected, and to do that, I invited those men to help me, and there

14 was -- they were all powerful men. Mr. Mladen Naletilic, a well known man

15 who did his utmost, who did a great deal to protect those people.

16 Mr. Banozic, Mr. Hrkac, that is all those people here helped in one way or

17 the other, and those companies in Herzegovina did not work, with the

18 exception of those which were outside, and those were the only ones who

19 could set aside some aid, and provide for those people. At our first

20 session that we held, we also appealed for help to our people in the

21 diaspora, and addressed all those who could help us and especially those

22 unfortunate people, those refugees.

23 Q. Now, the next question is what ethnicity was that of the refugees

24 and how did you protects them, how many of them?

25 A. We simply never divided the refugees according to their

Page 11983

1 ethnicity, a refugee is a refugee is a refugee, never mind what ethnic

2 group they belonged to so we had Serbs and we had those of Bosniaks and

3 naturally there were very many Croat refugees who had fled from other

4 areas, and come to us, because in Siroki Brijeg, there were no military

5 operations.

6 Q. I see. Did you organise soup kitchens or something else? How did

7 you feed those people? What go the humanitarian relief? How did you make

8 do?

9 A. The humanitarian relief, we were fortunate in Siroki Brijeg to

10 have in the commissary in Siroki Brijeg and we have a fryer there, Jozo

11 Zovko [phoen], who was also well known, not only in Siroki Brijeg but

12 around the world who had many connections could therefore organise the

13 relief. We also had many people in diaspora abroad who were also helping

14 us.

15 Q. I will ask you about that because I have a document that will be

16 my next question, but I was just asking you about those kitchens?

17 A. Excuse me, counsel, yes, we had it organised at the municipal

18 level, that is we had two points which provided food, not only for the

19 refugees but also for other people who needed such relief.

20 Q. And where were those kitchens?

21 A. We had two kitchens.

22 Q. And for whom did they prepare food?

23 A. One was at the Feral and the other one was at the Obnova company

24 and they provided food both for our troops and for the refugees and for

25 people who could not look after themselves.

Page 11984

1 Q. Now, I will show you D1/345 and after you've seen that exhibit, I

2 will ask you to explain to the Court what it is about.

3 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Could we have D1/345, please?

4 A. We took a decision that our migrant workers abroad, rather than

5 come back to defend their hearth, we bound them to somehow financially

6 help, and we decided that every citizen who was -- who worked abroad was

7 bound to pay 300 marks to the account of the municipal of Siroki Brijeg

8 every month. And that accounted for 90 per cent of our budget of the

9 revenue that we had in Siroki Brijeg. The rest of the money, we raised,

10 we introduced -- we rather levied a war tax on the companies that were

11 still working, and we did get some small funds from them.

12 Q. And whom did you then finance from the municipal budget?

13 A. This municipal budget was used to finance, and the most important

14 thing was to finance our families or rather the families of our

15 defenders. We had to see that the -- our defenders' family would be

16 looked after, that they don't go hungry and from that money, we also in a

17 way also financed our volunteer Siroki Brijeg brigade. And the other

18 units who were in the territory of the town.

19 Q. You mean in Siroki Brijeg?

20 A. That is correct.

21 Q. Well, could you just tell us which were they, which were the ones

22 that you financed?

23 A. From the republic -- from the municipal budget we financed our

24 volunteer Siroki Brijeg brigade which incorporated one special purpose

25 unit, the Convicts Battalion, which was a part of that brigade, and which

Page 11985

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 11986

1 was responsible for special interventions.

2 Q. So somebody else could ask for its help? It wasn't exclusively

3 and only attached to that brigade?

4 A. No, it was not exclusively attached to that brigade. It could

5 also be assigned to other areas.

6 Q. I see. But it had -- it used the logistics of that brigade.

7 Could you please explain what was the link between the two?

8 A. The Convicts Battalion originated in 1992 during the war against

9 the Serbs, and it is called the Convicts Battalion because it brought

10 together men who were -- who had persecuted, punished, incarcerated, that

11 is simply people, the accused gentleman here, Mr. Mladen Naletilic, came

12 at that time to Siroki Brijeg, I mean 1991, 1992, he came bringing with

13 him his experience and, well, let's put it that way, his knowledge, and he

14 managed somehow in those hard times, when everybody had taken to his

15 heels, when everybody was hiding in whatever holes, they managed to

16 somehow motivate those people and embark on the defence of these

17 territories against the Serb units.

18 Q. When you say punished, why were those people punished?

19 A. Well, if we go back a little.

20 Q. But just briefly, will you explain the Court, if you know, that

21 is?

22 A. In the former Yugoslavia, there was major persecution of those

23 people from our territories who had to emigrate, and one of them is the

24 present Mr. Mladen Naletilic.

25 Q. Why?

Page 11987

1 A. Because he was at odds with the then regime. Most people were at

2 odds, disagreed with that regime, but some people did not flee abroad and

3 lived as they did always longing for their -- and those who were abroad

4 always yearned, always longed or always felt home sick.

5 Q. And why, and so the name came?

6 A. And they were called the Convicts Battalion because they had

7 suffered punishment.

8 Q. You mean for political reasons?

9 A. For political reasons.

10 Q. Now, let us now cover only the period when you took up the office

11 that you did, and 1993, moving into 1993, I will ask you specific

12 questions and please give me specific answers to them. Now, do you know

13 where the personnel of the international community in Siroki Brijeg was

14 accommodated?

15 A. Yes. I know it well. I know well where the seat of the

16 international community there was because it was customary, as soon as the

17 HVO was founded in Novi -- in Siroki Brijeg, the international community

18 was invited, and informed about people who had been appointed to the HVO.

19 There were several, now perhaps I won't be able to remember the names of

20 all the people from the international community, well naturally, I will

21 recall the names who --

22 Q. Very well, let's then move on. Did you ever meet Sir Martin

23 Garrod?

24 A. Sir Martin Garrod is my friend and I spent a lot of time with him

25 in Siroki Brijeg. They came very often, well, naturally, on official

Page 11988

1 business, to the municipal council, but also very often, almost every day,

2 they were my guests at my place, at my property, and Sir Martin was -- we

3 all liked him. He particularly struck the eye or rather the ear because

4 he every day learned a new Croat word. His pronunciation was as it was

5 but we all liked it very much. Besides, besides, frequently when we met,

6 naturally, he liked to say, well, "to have a glass too many," and then it

7 was very nice to talk with him, to socialise with him, and other people

8 came with him. I remember there was a Spaniard whose name was Jesus and

9 so on and so forth. Sir Martin Garrod at that time was Jesus's assistant,

10 Mr. Jesus came from Spain.

11 Q. Mr. Garrod told us here that there were very interesting people

12 who lived in Siroki Brijeg, and that they were extremists.

13 A. That is very strange if Sir Martin said that. He never said that

14 while he was there. At least he never said it to me.

15 Q. Did he ever meet with Mr. Naletilic in your house? Let me give

16 you the date. 15 August, 1993.

17 A. As far as I know, I never saw Sir Martin Garrod with Mr. Mladen

18 Naletilic.

19 Q. How did you talk to him or how did he talk to you?

20 A. They always had interpreters with them.

21 Q. Do you know where Ivic Pasalic was born, by any chance?

22 A. Yes, I do.

23 Q. Can you tell the Honourable Court?

24 A. He was born in Suica.

25 Q. Sir Martin Garrod told us that he was from Siroki Brijeg?

Page 11989

1 A. Mr. Ivic Pasalic is from Suica. That is a place between Livno and

2 Tomislavgrad, some 80 kilometres away from Siroki Brijeg, if not

3 more.

4 Q. Were your conversations with Sir Garrod in your place, were they

5 official or private?

6 A. Our official conversations took place in my office in the HVO

7 office in Siroki Brijeg, and when he visited me in my place, those

8 conversations were private. And that's why I am very surprised that my

9 good friend, Sir Martin Garrod, could abuse the private conversations in

10 which we could talk privately about anything. And these conversations are

11 usually not binding on anybody.

12 Q. Let's move to another specific subject, that is Mr. Mladen

13 Naletilic. My first concrete question: Was Mr. Mladen Naletilic in 1993,

14 was he a soldier or did he have a rank?

15 A. Mr. Mladen Naletilic was not a soldier, and he did not have any

16 ranks. He was in charge of the things that I mentioned before.

17 Q. To your personal knowledge, did anybody at the time have a

18 military rank?

19 A. As far as I know, nobody had a military rank. There were just

20 responsibilities as per individual functions.

21 Q. According to your knowledge, did he participate in the conflict

22 with Muslims? Again I am referring to the period of 1993, that is the

23 subject of this examination.

24 A. I claim that Mr. Naletilic did not participate in the conflict

25 against Muslims.

Page 11990

1 Q. Tell us, since you've mentioned the Convicts Battalion, who was

2 its commander?

3 A. As far as I know, and as far as I could read in documents, that

4 was Mr. Ivan Andabak, at my time.

5 Q. Was Mr. Mladen Naletilic ever the commander of the Convicts

6 Battalion, to your knowledge, personal knowledge?

7 A. Mr. Mladen Naletilic is one of the founders of the Convicts

8 Battalion, and as far as I know, he was never its commander. But he did

9 help with the organisation of the Convicts Battalion. The commander of

10 the Convicts Battalion, as far as I know, was the late Mario Hrkac, Croat.

11 Q. What period are you referring to?

12 A. I'm referring to the period of the fights against the Serbs.

13 Q. Are you -- do you mean operations commander?

14 A. Yes, operations commander. Mr. Mladen Naletilic was not up to

15 climbing any mountains, as you can see, or leading those people up there.

16 Q. When he took over this office that is mentioned in the document,

17 was he in Siroki Brijeg all the time? And what were his main duties,

18 concerns?

19 A. Mr. Mladen Naletilic was with us very often, as often as was

20 needed, in order for us to discuss and arrive at decisions as to what

21 needs to be done. His concerns matched his experience, and his duty was

22 to help these people in coping and to help these people to be supplied, to

23 have everything that was needed by a soldier.

24 Q. Did he have any special duty with regard to the implementation?

25 THE INTERPRETER: Sorry, the interpreter did not understand --

Page 11991

1 sorry.

2 Q. That was funerals, did he have any duty with regard to funerals?

3 A. These were the most difficult moments, the funerals of our

4 soldiers, and Mr. Mladen Naletilic had the courage, had the strength, to

5 talk to these people, to convey his condolences and to be -- to help them

6 at the most difficult moments.

7 Q. Did he do that officially on behalf of the municipality?

8 A. Yes. He attended every funeral on behalf of the municipality.

9 Q. Did he wear a uniform, a military uniform? Did you ever see him

10 wearing a uniform?

11 A. Only on special occasions, and funerals, these funerals, were one

12 such special occasion. It was customary to wear a uniform. We all wore

13 uniforms for such occasions, even us in the civilian authorities, we would

14 wear military uniforms, because these were special moments, the most

15 difficult moments.

16 Q. Do you have any knowledge about the construction of the house on

17 Cigansko Brdo, very often in these discussions this house is referred

18 to as Mladen Naletilic's villa.

19 A. Counsel, I do have knowledge about the construction of that house

20 that you refer to as villa. No, it is not me. Others do. I claim

21 before this Court, maybe this Court will have the opportunity to visit

22 that area and see for yourself that at least 50 per cent of the houses

23 there are much bigger and much more beautiful than Mr. Naletilic's villa.

24 Q. Do you know who was the contractor who performed the

25 construction?

Page 11992

1 A. I happen to know that. I know who the constructer was, it was a

2 company which engages in the construction, and which still exists and is

3 active in Siroki Brijeg.

4 Q. Do you happen to know whether detainees worked on the house or

5 around the house of Mr. Mladen Naletilic, those inmates were allegedly

6 Muslims?

7 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, I'm going to object to that until some

8 foundation is laid for this witness's knowledge.

9 JUDGE LIU: Well --

10 MR. KRSNIK: What foundation?

11 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Krsnik, you may ask some questions around

12 the house, whether the witness was there at this period, whether he has

13 passed through those areas during that time. Then come to that issue.

14 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Certainly, Your Honours. I just

15 wanted to be as short as possible and I just wanted to reduce my

16 examination to one question.

17 Q. So let me rephrase. Do you have any personal knowledge?

18 A. Yes, I do.

19 Q. Have you ever been to the house?

20 A. Yes, I have.

21 Q. During the construction and after?

22 A. Yes, during the construction and after, and before the

23 construction.

24 Q. Can I now ask the witness whether alleged inmates worked on the

25 house or around the house?

Page 11993

1 A. Counsel, I think that a question put in that way to any of us in

2 our area would -- it would be a disgrace to have people who are not paid

3 and who are not -- whose job it is not to do that, that people like that

4 were to work on a house. So I claim before this Court that no -- no other

5 than the competent company and its people worked on Mr. Mladen Naletilic's

6 house. I don't know any of these people but I know the owner of that

7 company.

8 Q. And was there ever a water supply system built on Cigansko Brdo?

9 Is it possible to build a water supply system there? [redacted]

10 [redacted]?

11 A. Counsel, it is possible to build a water supply system there.

12 However, even today, as we speak, the town of Siroki Brijeg, the Listica

13 locality, over 60 per cent of households there still don't have water from

14 the main supply. In order to bring water to Cigansko Brdo, to the place

15 where Mr. Naletilic's house is, according to the estimates of some

16 experts, we would have to spend a minimum of 5 million dollars. These are

17 the figures which cannot be borne, even the most expensive places, let

18 alone Siroki Brijeg municipality, and there has never been any word about

19 the construction of the water supply system on Cigansko Brdo, as far as I

20 know.

21 Q. And now let's move on to our last topic. Do you have any personal

22 knowledge that there were Muslim detainees in Siroki Brijeg in July --

23 June, July and August of 1993?

24 A. Yes, I do know, because [redacted]

25 [redacted], I had to look after about -- I had to look after

Page 11994

1 everybody, because I was responsible for everybody who was in Siroki

2 Brijeg at the time. I know the office that was in charge of that, the

3 Defence Department, came by the information that the military police had

4 brought these people for some interrogation, for some interviews, and that

5 these people were to be placed in some appropriate accommodation. My

6 office, the Defence Department, did manage to find some rooms, very -- in

7 the same building where the Defence Department was. There were some 20

8 beds there. And these unfortunate people, I referred to all these people

9 as unfortunate people regardless of whether they are Croats, Serbs or

10 Bosniaks, for the mere fact that something like that befell them, so all

11 these unfortunate people have to be protected and have to be treated with

12 dignity.

13 Q. So who was looking after these people? Where were they

14 accommodated? Can you explain the location? Where were they

15 accommodated?

16 A. That was in the town, in Listica, in the area of Listica, where

17 once upon a time there was a -- the tobacco station. There were some

18 buildings there that had been neglected and run down. Some of -- one of

19 those buildings was refurbished and in that building there was the Defence

20 Department, and next to the Defence Department, there were these people.

21 Q. I'm going to show you Exhibit 26.9. Can you please take the

22 pointer and point this building to us?

23 A. [Indicates] This building behind the Obnova, which looks

24 incomplete. I can see just the roof on the Obnova, and that's this

25 building behind this with the white roof.

Page 11995

1 Q. Can you show us which buildings were not in use and which ones

2 were in use?

3 A. I have to look more carefully. All these big buildings, this one

4 and then these buildings behind, they were in a very run -- in a run-down

5 state. And the only building which was used at the time was this house,

6 this building here. And this building housed the 1st, the 2nd, and

7 the 3rd Battalions, the civilian protection office and this is where the

8 Convicts Battalion also had its headquarters.

9 Q. My last questions and then I'll give you over to the Prosecution,

10 were these detainees taken to forced labour? Do you have any personal

11 knowledge about that?

12 A. Counsel, never, [redacted], nobody was

13 forced to work. I was in consultation with Mr. Martin Garrod, I asked him

14 what we could do for these people, making sure that we would not

15 jeopardise their human rights, I asked him how we could help these people

16 to engage, to help them pass their time in a better way. Mr. Garrod said

17 that it would be good that -- to give these people something to do, to

18 help them in that way, to -- in order to make their days go quickly. They

19 were probably there waiting to be exchanged. I don't know why they were

20 there. I don't know that. I don't know why they were there. This was

21 not my area of competence.

22 Q. So did they actually work? And if they did, did they engage in

23 voluntary work or did they have to? Were they forced to work? What did

24 Mr. Garrod tell you, since you've mentioned him?

25 A. Mr. Garrod said that these people could not be forced, should not

Page 11996

1 be forced, but if they -- these people wanted to work, that they could.

2 An opportunity was given to us, given the fact that the life was not

3 functioning in Siroki Brijeg as in peace time, we had to build a

4 transmitter on a hill top some 200 ways [as interpreted] from the centre

5 of the city and that's why we had to dig a 200 long -- 200 metre long

6 trench, in order to lay the cables for this transmission pylon. So there

7 was a company engaged this that work, it was a professional company, and

8 the detainees were the ones who were there to help and for that they were

9 given cigarettes, they had bigger rations of food, and they were paid 5

10 German marks per person a day at the time in Siroki Brijeg that was a lot

11 of money.

12 Q. So they were paid from the municipal budget?

13 A. Yes, they were paid from the municipal budget.

14 Q. My last question: You said you knew Mladen Naletilic. Can you

15 describe him as a person?

16 A. I know Mr. Mladen Naletilic. We are friends. We are childhood

17 friends. Mr. Mladen Naletilic, it is very difficult for me to find the

18 words at this moment to describe the nobility, the soul of the person who

19 had empathy for the suffering people, for children, the person who helped

20 the entire region while he was abroad, as the person who was persecuted

21 and had to go abroad to work there. I know that he did a lot for the

22 region. He sent donations for sports organisations. He built the St.

23 Anthony's chapel. On this very day, there are mothers praying in that

24 chapel for their children who perished in the last war.

25 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, Defence, the Defence

Page 11997

1 has no further questions. Thank you very much, sir, for taking the

2 trouble to come here. I know about all your complaints, and that is why I

3 would like to specially thank you for coming here to give your testimony.

4 JUDGE LIU: Witness, are you feeling tired?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

6 JUDGE LIU: You still have 20 minutes to go. Are you ready to

7 continue?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm ready.

9 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Cross-examination?

10 MR. SCOTT: Any questions from Mr. Seric?

11 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Seric? Cross-examination?

12 Cross-examined by Mr. Scott:

13 Q. Good afternoon, sir.

14 A. Good afternoon.

15 MR. SCOTT: Could I ask the usher's assistance, if you could move

16 that one panel back just a bit? Thank you very much.

17 Q. Sir, just to be -- just as we get started to clarify something,

18 there is another [redacted] in Bosnia-Herzegovina that during the

19 time around 1993 or 1994, was elected or became at least the

20 vice-president --

21 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours. We cannot say the

22 witness's name in an open session. Your Honours.

23 MR. SCOTT: I move it be redacted, Your Honour. It was my mistake

24 and I ask that it be redacted, please.

25 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

Page 11998

1 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Do you remember how you reacted when

2 I made a similar mistake? How you personally reacted?

3 MR. SCOTT:

4 Q. Witness NH, it's my apology to you it was a mistake on my part.

5 It will be redacted and it will not be broadcast out of this room. Again

6 my apology. If we could go to private session, Your Honour?

7 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we will go to private session, please.

8 [Private session]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 11999

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Pages 11999-12004 redacted private session

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 12005

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [Open session]

9 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I merely wanted to ask

10 you to ask the Prosecutor, he has given us no documents for the

11 cross-examination of this witness, does it mean that there are no such

12 documents? We wouldn't want to be given this these documents tomorrow

13 because I'm entitled to see those documents before the cross-examination

14 begins. Does it mean that there are no documents, that no documents will

15 be used?

16 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Krsnik, I think Mr. Meek has used the

17 phrase, Catch-22, because at this moment, the Prosecutor is in this kind

18 of situation, the Catch-22 situation, that he really doesn't know whether

19 to provide you the documents before or withdraw it until he's using it at

20 a later stage. Let us hear what the Prosecution will tell us.

21 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, you're absolutely right. You're

22 forecast our position exactly, although having said that, I am prepared to

23 give these -- there are only four exhibits and I'm prepared to give them

24 to Mr. Krsnik, although frankly in light of our conference yesterday, I

25 did consider doing it differently, but I'll be happy to provide them to

Page 12006

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 12007

1 him.

2 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Meek?

3 MR. MEEK: Mr. President, if the rules keep changing we just, as

4 Defence counsel would like to know then because we believe the rules were

5 that documents would be provided before cross-examination began. Now,

6 cross-examination began 20 minutes ago. And it's nice that they are

7 providing them now but we don't understand why. A clarification of the

8 rules would be nice. One additional matter --

9 JUDGE LIU: Well, yes, we will stick to our rules that those

10 documents should be provided to the other party at least before the

11 cross-examination.

12 MR. MEEK: Thank you, Your Honours.

13 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Yes, Mr. Seric?

14 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, it is very late but I wish

15 to draw your attention to one matter. Today, from our learned friends

16 received, as you did, some -- accompanying the explanation of

17 constitutional law matters and having to do with the structure of the BH

18 government, but I just cast a look, I just cursory looked at them and

19 these documents include some expert opinions, the opinions of expert

20 groups. I think that this is the Prosecutor's attempt to bring in

21 something through the back door, something completely different, something

22 that has nothing to do with the concept of the BH government. I do not

23 know whether it is a new proposal of the Prosecution how we should treat

24 it, if it is nothing new, then could they were draw that part of the

25 documentation which we received earlier in the day.

Page 12008

1 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much for drawing our attention to this

2 very point. We haven't received those documents yet. We don't know what

3 is in it. In my view, those documents were not tendered for the evidence

4 into this case. It's just to help us to understand the meaning of the BiH

5 government. If you insist, we will ask the views from the Prosecution

6 whether they would like to withdraw it or not.

7 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. President.

8 However, the Defence believes that you do not need such an unilateral and

9 biased view that was put down on the paper by some crisis group.

10 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Seric, I believe when we asked the parties

11 to help the Chamber, those views submitted by the party is one-sided.

12 That's quite clear.

13 Yes?

14 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours. Unilateral but

15 objective. And this has nothing to do with your request. I absolutely

16 second my -- Mr. Seric, and I'm really surprised at myself, what kind of a

17 head do I have? I have to get an examination and then I couldn't go -- I

18 was really flabbergasted when I saw the first document or two. This is

19 not what you asked for and I support Mr. Seric.

20 JUDGE LIU: [Previous translation continues] ... to respond to

21 those matters in your submissions. We are waiting for your submissions.

22 Well, witness, I'm afraid we have to keep you for another night in

23 The Hague. Just remember that you are under the oath so do not talk to

24 anybody about your testimony today, and do not let anybody talk to you

25 about it. We will see you tomorrow afternoon. Do you understand me?

Page 12009

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do, yes.

2 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. We will resume tomorrow afternoon at

3 2.15 p.m.

4 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

5 7.07 p.m., to be reconvened on Friday,

6 the 31st day of May, 2002, at 2.15 p.m.

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25