Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 12366

1 Friday, 14 June 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.18 p.m.

5 JUDGE LIU: Call the case, please, Madam Registrar.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case number

7 IT-98-34-T, the Prosecutor versus Naletilic and Martinovic.

8 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Shall we have the witness, please?

9 [The witness entered court]


11 [Witness answered through interpreter]

12 JUDGE LIU: Good afternoon, Witness.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

14 JUDGE LIU: I'm sorry for keeping you waiting for quite a long

15 time in The Hague. Are you ready to continue?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Absolutely.

17 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. Mr. Krsnik. You may continue.

18 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours. Thank

19 you. Thank you for everything. And I will now continue with my

20 examination. Before commencing, I would ask the Trial Chamber to allow

21 me to inform the witness of a decision and perhaps it would be best to

22 go into private session, just in case.

23 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We will go to the private session, please.

24 [Private session]

25 [redacted]

Page 12367












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Page 12371

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [Open session]

8 Examined by Mr. Krsnik: [Continued]

9 Q. Witness we spoke about the negotiations in Jablanica at the last

10 hearing and we spoke about Sovici. I would like to finish with this today

11 and I would like to show you a cassette and just show you two photographs,

12 so that you can become familiar with them and then we can move on to other

13 questions.

14 A. If I may, there is just one sentence I would like to say. First

15 of all I need to provide the Judge with some information. In the

16 documents that I had and the reports that I had which were all muddled up,

17 I said that that meeting was held on the 5th of May, which is not correct

18 because the report was written on that date, on the 5th of May, but the

19 meeting took place one day earlier, that is to say on the 4rth of May.

20 This is just for the sake of precision. That's one thing.

21 And the second matter is that I am a little -- I regret that the

22 Judge said that the two reports were more important than my testimony.

23 That's what I understood. In the following two or five minutes, or in

24 that case, I misunderstood something but if necessary, I will write -- I'm

25 quite capable of writing a report here for about two minutes which relates

Page 12372

1 to this part which I gave testimony about.

2 JUDGE CLARK: If I may, Dr. Bagaric, what I said on Tuesday, I

3 believe, was that it was a pity that the two reports which we had referred

4 to the other two villages because the village you visited is the subject

5 matter of the indictment. That's what I said. I didn't say that the

6 reports were more important. I said it was a great pity that you hadn't

7 actually written the report which we had, but as you said, we have you

8 here to give your testimony. It's just it might have refreshed your

9 memory to see a contemporaneous report but that's the only comment I was

10 making.

11 JUDGE LIU: And if I may add, that we believe that the live

12 testimony in this Tribunal is more important than any report.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I thank you very much, and I would

14 like to apologise to Judge Clark. Obviously, I misunderstood her. I

15 apologise.

16 JUDGE LIU: You may proceed, Mr. Krsnik.

17 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. Could the

18 technicians please show the video which we prepared? It's Exhibit -- it's

19 video clip number 5 from the Prosecution. The OTP. And I will then

20 say-- because we've already seen, we've already viewed this video it might

21 not be necessary to show the entire video but just part of it and then

22 we will ask certain questions.

23 [Videotape played]

24 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this video clip

25 unfortunately has no sound, has no text, although you can see the people

Page 12373

1 are speaking in it.

2 [Videotape played]

3 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] We can stop here. We can pause

4 here. We won't need it any more.

5 Q. Dr. Bagaric, can you remember anything with regard to this

6 cassette? Is that the meeting, that event, the visit to the school in

7 Sovici that you spoke about?

8 A. I tried to follow this carefully, this cassette, and to recognise

9 myself. I think I have the impression that I am -- that I recognise

10 myself in that group. However, at the moment, I can't categorically state

11 that that was me but I think that one person in the uniform, I think that

12 was myself. But I think it is more important or rather equally important

13 I think the fact that we visited that area is equally important and that

14 we visited it together with UN representatives and with BH Army

15 representatives, and that the representatives of the army, after that

16 visit, they were very, very content. They didn't find any of the elements

17 that the HVO had been accused of, that the HVO had been accused of having

18 committed there.

19 Q. Witness, Mr. Bagaric, I apologise, Dr. Bagaric, could you remember

20 whether it was on that day, what you saw on the cassette, was that the

21 visit? Did you recognise anyone else on the video? If not I can show it

22 once more because I recognised you. Did you recognise anyone else out of

23 the HVO -- among the HVO delegation?

24 A. I think so but I don't think it would be bad to show the video

25 again, if there is more to be seen and then I might be able to give a

Page 12374












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Page 12375

1 definite answer.

2 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I would like to ask the

3 technicians to start again from the beginning and if the lights could

4 perhaps be adjusted, if the intensity of the lights could be reduced a

5 bit so that we may see this video more easily?

6 Q. And could you say whom you can recognise in the video, if you do

7 recognise someone? And also whether that was -- that took place on the

8 day concerned, the 4th of May.

9 [Videotape played]

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. I'm in the tape. I've

11 got a Red Cross mark on my left shoulder.

12 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Could we pause and rewind a bit? And

13 would the technician be so kind --

14 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Scott.

15 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, there's no issue whether he was at this

16 particular meeting. It's not disputed.

17 JUDGE LIU: Yes. But we would like to see it any way.

18 MR. SCOTT: That's fine, of course.

19 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Could you rewind a bit, please?

20 [Videotape played]

21 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

22 Q. You could comment perhaps?

23 A. Yes, well the person facing us on his left shoulder, he has a sign

24 of the medical headquarters or rather of the International Red Cross. If

25 you show the cassette, the video, then you will see it.

Page 12376

1 Q. The first man on the stairs, the first man whose face you can

2 see? Well, we can show it, we can carry on showing it and then please say

3 whom else that you recognise. And that was on the 4th of May; is that

4 correct?

5 A. Yes, that was on the 4th of May, yes. After the meeting in

6 Jablanica, in UNPROFOR's headquarters, UNPROFOR's base.

7 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Could we please continue showing it?

8 [Videotape played]

9 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Yes, now the sign -- the insignia can be seen.

11 A. Yes. I can see Petkovic there.

12 Q. That's General Petkovic?

13 A. Yes, that's right.

14 Q. Did you recognise the person writing?

15 A. Unfortunately, no, I didn't.

16 Q. Could you be so kind and rewind it a bit? Because yesterday, you

17 weren't sure either. Could the technicians please rewind it a bit?

18 A. Perhaps that's Rasim Delic but I'm not sure.

19 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Stop.

20 [Videotape played]

21 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Sir, this gentleman who is facing us?

23 A. Unfortunately, I couldn't say who he is at this moment. I can't

24 recognise him.

25 Q. Very well. Thank you. Perhaps we don't need the video any more.

Page 12377

1 The important thing was that you recognised yourself and that that was the

2 event in question.

3 I have also prepared two photographs but I don't think it's

4 necessary to show them any more. Perhaps one, just one photograph.

5 That's Exhibit 8.3. So would the usher be so kind as to show you the

6 photograph and could you tell us whether you know what the photograph

7 shows?

8 A. Well, last time I clearly said, and I would like to repeat that

9 now, I want to be absolutely clear and honest when giving testimony here,

10 and I won't make any assumptions of any kind. We passed through Doljani

11 and through Sovici. I think that this is Sovici but I can't state so for

12 certain. I think that it's Sovici but it's really not a problem to

13 establish whether this is Sovici or not. I was travelling in an armoured

14 personnel carrier and I didn't have such a panorama in front of me. We

15 are talking about events that took place over ten years ago.

16 Q. But as you go from Jablanica towards Sovici, which is the first

17 place?

18 A. I think that first of all you come to Doljani and then Sovici.

19 Q. That's all, as far as this subject is concerned. Thank you,

20 usher.

21 I'd like to move on to another subject. Could you tell this Trial

22 Chamber what the relation with the Muslims was, with the Muslims in

23 Mostar, with regard to help, cooperation in hospitals, aid? Did you have

24 any contact with Arif Pasalic and with the eastern part of Mostar? And

25 perhaps we could prepare the documents for this immediately. I'm going to

Page 12378

1 ask the Registrar if she would be so kind as to prepare the documents

2 D1/352, 351, 356, 380, 353, 378, and 355.

3 I'm going to ask you to look at these documents and whenever you

4 talk about a certain document, please mention its number first. You will

5 find it in the bottom right side of the page and then you give us the

6 comment, the document need not be read because it speaks for itself but

7 can you please briefly comment on any of these documents?

8 A. Can I please start immediately after this meeting, i.e., after the

9 return from Konjic and Jablanica, so that was a few days later, or maybe

10 even on the following day or two days later. We doctors were very

11 displeased and very dissatisfied with the Bosniak side, Muslim side, which

12 did not allow us to go to these villages where we knew were -- there were

13 many injured and killed people. So we expressed that dissatisfaction in

14 the form of a protest. I did not know what to do so we wrote to

15 international organisations. We appealed for assistance. We organised a

16 press conference, to which we invited the eastern side and we appealed to

17 their cooperation because we had a foreboding that the situation would go

18 from bad to worse. So this position was dictated by us from the HVO who

19 were doctors, and I thought that we had the right to claim certain things,

20 as doctors, and in order for us to confirm our position as doctors, and to

21 confirm that we were doing what we were supposed to do, that we were

22 treating everybody. I launched several initiatives for establishing ties

23 among the medical personnel on both sides of Mostar, which already at the

24 time was divided because the army had already been formed, their doctors

25 already were on the strength of their units, and in a certain way, I

Page 12379

1 wanted to establish ties. I thought that I could prevent a conflict or

2 maybe if not prevent, then its consequences could be mitigated if the

3 doctors teamed up together and if they held a front, and I said that

4 openly and this was aired on all the media, on both the western side and

5 the eastern side, and I got a reply by Mr. Arif Pasalic, who I can't give

6 you precisely what he said before I see the document. But in any case,

7 Mr. Pasalic said, "Okay, you are offering us cooperation. Give us this

8 and that. Give us medicines, give us equipment, give us personnel," and

9 so on and so forth. I'll try -- and if these are -- the documents that I

10 have I in front of you, I will try to comment on these documents and I'll

11 try to clarify each and every one of them.

12 JUDGE LIU: Dr. Bagaric, I believe you are talking about document

13 D1/352 and D1/351.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. I apologise. I don't

15 know before I actually see the documents, I don't have -- still have them

16 in front of me.

17 In front of me, I have several documents which unfortunately are

18 not complete. Some of these documents, for example, document 351, in

19 which Mr. Arif Pasalic wrote on the 5th of June, 1993, and we are talking

20 about the period after the events that I previously described, excuse me,

21 I have to put these papers in a time order. Here I can see a document

22 dating back to the 3rd of June, in which I say with reference to

23 information on the lack of medicaments and medical supplies in the eastern

24 part of the town controlled by you, we are ready to provide you

25 immediately and unconditionally. So I'm talking about document D1/352 but

Page 12380

1 there was another document which at this moment, I don't have, and it is

2 relevant to the request by Mr. Pasalic to give him medicines.

3 On the 3rd of June, I wrote back with reference to information on

4 the lack of medicaments and medical supplies in the eastern part of the

5 town, we are ready to provide you immediately and unconditionally with the

6 indispensable medicines. And then on the 5th of 6, I received a document

7 from the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, i.e., from Arif Pasalic, he sent it

8 to me, i.e., to us, in which he states exactly what they needed. That was

9 on the 5th of June. There is also an order dating backs to the 7th of

10 June, 1993, this is D1/356, in which we issued an order to give medicines

11 to -- medications to the BH Army according to specification. And this

12 document shows just one example of such a specification of medicaments

13 which were issued. These are D1/380 and there is another document D1/355,

14 in which is actually a reply, our reply to one of the requests and

15 according to our reply, we were ready, we had prepared medicaments, we had

16 given them to UNPROFOR for transport and we also explained why we could

17 not send a team of doctors to the other side.

18 And the reason was the following: Since the hospital in the

19 western part of Mostar was much better equipped than the one in the

20 eastern part of Mostar, we had a huge lack of personnel, a lot

21 of doctors had left the hospital. That is why it says in this document,

22 "With regard to the teams of documents, we would like to inform you that

23 we do not have any volunteers, neither among the Muslim nor Croat

24 personnel." And we also say that our capacities are not high and so on

25 and so forth. And I also explain that what -- that the conditions for

Page 12381

1 caring for the wounded population were much better here than there and

2 that is why we propose you for the Nth time to send all your wounded to

3 HVO war hospitals where they shall be given the same treatment as given to

4 it our combatants in accordance with the Hippocratic oath and medical

5 ethics. The identical treatment is guaranteed to you by the HVO,

6 supreme medical headquarters, and myself personally and this was signed

7 by Colonel Tugomir Gveric and myself. So this is a set of documents which

8 are clear proof on cooperation with the eastern side, i.e., our attempt to

9 extend our hand to them, to calm the situation, and our attempt to

10 establish ties irrespective of the conflict, because doctors always

11 thought, me personally including, that this conflict between Muslims and

12 Croats is unnecessary and that it will result in nothing but victims, and

13 that later on proved to be correct. There is another document in this

14 set, I think it was on my table here last time before we broke the

15 session, and it was our offer to the eastern side to offer the services of

16 our hospital.

17 Q. I'm sorry to be interrupting you. This is a document that I

18 wanted to show you later on. And can I please ask our Madam Registrar to

19 give the witness D1/362, to the witness. I.e., 1/371 and 1/373. I

20 believe that one of these documents is the one that you were referring

21 to. I don't know it off my head. That's all I propose, three documents,

22 and you'll be able to see for yourself.

23 A. Your Honours, there were numerous attempts primarily for the

24 doctors to do their job and to help each other, to treat everybody equally

25 across the board. That's one thing. Another thing, we thought that it

Page 12382

1 would be mutually beneficial, that it would be a great service to the

2 eastern part of Mostar, where the situation was even worse, and we also

3 thought that such a move could contribute to the situation in the entire

4 Bosnia and Herzegovina being -- becoming calmer.

5 Q. Why?

6 A. Because at the same time, we Croats were in an equally bad

7 situation in central Bosnia. That's why. We thought that this example of

8 cooperation in Mostar could have spread and could have extended to

9 Travnik, Bugojno, Zepce, Zenica, and everywhere else. In front of me, I

10 finally have, Your Honours, this request number D1/362. I believe that

11 this request and if this is not too pretentious to say, I believe that

12 this is a historical document. During the worst conflicts which were

13 under way after a number of attempts on the part of doctors to establish

14 ties in order to mitigate suffering, we come to the date 16 September,

15 1993, and unfortunately, a long time had lapsed before our initial request

16 and this request but we did not know when the war would stop, whether

17 it would stop at all. In this request, I am writing not to Pasalic but to

18 UNPROFOR, to the Spanish Battalion, and in this request I tell them, we

19 ask to you mediate in the offer to the Muslim side for admission and

20 treatment of civilians, particularly women and children, to the regional

21 war hospital in Mostar, as well as other HVO hospitals.

22 Q. Dr. Bagaric, kindly, if you could slow down. Please understand

23 that this is all translated into two languages, and it is very important

24 that your testimony be conveyed as well -- as good as possible. It is

25 very difficult if you don't speak slowly. Please slow down. Whatever you

Page 12383












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Page 12384

1 say is translated into two languages.

2 A. In this document, it says that Muslims are guaranteed the same

3 treatment as our civilians and injured. We proposed that our work is

4 controlled by the International Red Cross, EC monitors and UNPROFOR. We

5 are doing this for one and only one reason, and that is the humanitarian

6 reason. So my concept was that we could, contrary to every logic of the

7 war and contrary to the rules of the war, because this hospital was in the

8 middle of the city, I thought that we could put our hospital under the UN

9 control. This would have been done by UN guaranteeing for the security

10 and safety of the hospital, that nobody could enter the hospital without

11 their approval. The UN had enough strength in Mostar to implement that.

12 They had enough armoured carriers to encircle the hospital.

13 Q. Can you please slow down, Dr. Bagaric, once again. Dr. Bagaric,

14 once again, I apologise, I had to warn you. I understand you absolutely

15 well, all of us who understand Croatian can follow you but we have

16 noticed, and I have experienced that if our translators, interpreters, who

17 are trying to follow you and convey the message, sometimes your message

18 will be lost in translation and the transcript will convey a completely

19 different message. Please bear that in it mind when you give your

20 testimony. The Honourable Court cannot follow you for various reasons

21 because they are not familiar with the area as well as we are, and please

22 bear that in mind.

23 A. I apologise, Your Honours. I have the impression that I have

24 already -- that you have already lost patience with me because this

25 testimony has taken a long time, and that is maybe the explanation why I

Page 12385

1 am speeding up. I shall repeat just briefly and I will -- and on that

2 note, we thought that the consequences of the war could be mitigated, that

3 we could contribute towards the end of the war between the two sides of --

4 both of which were nothing but the victims of the conflict in the area of

5 the former Yugoslavia. Here I mean the Muslims and the Croats.

6 Unfortunately, everybody was the victim of that war. We thought that we

7 could offer our hospital as a symbol and as a reality, that we -- that

8 UN -- UNPROFOR forces could protect this institution from all those who

9 found our offer unacceptable. We also thought that it would have been

10 good for the International Red Cross to enter the hospital and to control

11 its work. And we thought that this would gain us the trust of the other

12 side.

13 Q. Dr. Bagaric, I have to interrupt you. We do not have much more

14 time. I believe that we only have about half an hour and there are two or

15 three other things that I would like to ask you. I just want to ask you,

16 we heard testimony here that you and the medical headquarters, that you

17 offered the services of your hospital but it was in the front line and

18 it was very hypocritical of you to do that?

19 A. I did not understand your comment.

20 Q. It is not a comment it is a question? We heard the testimony in

21 this courtroom --

22 MR. SCOTT: Excuse me, Mr. President, I'm going to make a similar

23 objection that I made the other day. It is not necessary or in our

24 respectful submission appropriate for counsel to make characterisations of

25 prior testimony. He can simply put questions to the witness. I also

Page 12386

1 believe it's not a proper characterisation of prior evidence to use the

2 word hypocritical. I don't recall any witness using that terminology.

3 And again I object to the argumentative nature of the questions put,

4 neutral questions, factual questions can very simply be put to the

5 witness.

6 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik, just ask some questions.

7 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think I have the

8 right, as counsel, to contradict -- I have the right to contradiction.

9 These are the institutes which have existed since Roman law and all

10 the legal systems have adopted it, both the Anglo-Saxon as well as the

11 continental law. This witness is here to refute some allegations, whether

12 he's going to refute them or not, we will hear from him. We will hear it

13 in his testimony but we were all here, we were present to hear the

14 testimony, according to which the hospital was offered but the Muslims did

15 not want to expect that because it was hypocritical. Maybe it was not the

16 word that was used but they knew exactly that that hospital could not be

17 used because it was on the very front line in the city of Mostar. I

18 believe that this is what was said, we also remember who said it, and I

19 would like to ask Dr. Bagaric whether this is true.

20 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Krsnik, you ever the full right to

21 contradict any testimony by the Prosecution's witness, but if there is an

22 objection from the other side, I believe that you better ask simple

23 questions. Eventually the result is the same.

24 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you for your instructions. I'm

25 sure to follow them, Your Honours.

Page 12387

1 Q. So can you please reply to the answer whether this hospital indeed

2 was not in service and whether it indeed was on the very front line?

3 A. I already said during my testimony that the hospital was on the

4 front line. It was on the very line of fire.

5 Q. Can you please explain to the Honourable Court how many hospitals

6 were there in Mostar?

7 A. Please do not interrupt me. So the hospital was on the line.

8 However, that hospital that we referred to as the war hospital, because it

9 worked under the war circumstances, treated all patients, civilians and

10 soldiers, and it was located, I believe, in five different places, some of

11 which were less safe and the others were more safe. When we offered the

12 services of the hospital, we did not choose and we did not make a

13 distinction. We did not say we are going to give this part to you and we

14 are going to keep this part to ourselves. We offered the services of the

15 same hospital where we treated ours, so to say, and who is the one to say

16 who is ours, who is anybody else's. So our wounded, we offered the

17 services of that same hospital to everybody else, to bear the same risks

18 and to benefit from the same results of treatment. Therefore, the

19 allegation that it was hypocritical to offer those services can only be

20 answered by a question. Is it not hypocritical when somebody asks for

21 medical supplies, not to give them to him? Is it also hypocritical that

22 if somebody needs a hospital, not to offer it to him? And you are in a

23 position to do so. At the end of the day, is it not hypocritical that

24 after this war, that we went through in Bosnia and Herzegovina, there are

25 again wars being waged all over the world, and again people get killed in

Page 12388

1 the same way, have the same needs for medical treatment and our experience

2 with that, and our messages in connection with that, are not being taken

3 on board.

4 Q. Dr. Bagaric, can you please answer me this? Have you ever

5 received any answer, either via UNPROFOR or through any other mediator

6 about that cooperation? Was that cooperation ever implemented? What

7 happened?

8 A. We never received a reply.

9 Q. Let's move on. So that hospital which was on the front line, is

10 it -- its name the old surgical centre?

11 A. Yes, its name is the old surgical centre.

12 Q. And was it in service all the time or not?

13 A. It was used all the time, throughout the entire war, that surgical

14 department was where people were operated upon, where they were treated,

15 and then the injured -- the injured people would be referred to the

16 hospital on the hill, which was much safer at the time.

17 Q. Can you please tell me whether you did anything else, whether you

18 undertook anything else with international organisations in order to

19 establish cooperation? I would like to ask Madam Registrar to prepare

20 350, 358 and 377.

21 A. Throughout the war in Mostar, there were a number of attempts on

22 our part in order to implement and do good with the help of international

23 organisations, in order to help people whoever came to us doctors in the

24 HVO or me personally during the war in Mostar, and whoever had a proposal

25 for us as to what should be done, what could be done, in order to reduce

Page 12389

1 the suffering and the pain, would have received our cooperation. We would

2 participate in that.

3 Q. Could you please comment on these documents, everybody in the

4 courtroom has these documents and they can read them for themselves.

5 A. Very briefly, document D1/350 and document D1/358, are very

6 important documents which testify to our attempts, even before the

7 conflict with the Muslim side started, so these documents go back to the

8 end of 1992. Mostar was visited by Mr. Robert Simon. He was President of

9 the International American, I believe, organisation, IMC which stands for

10 the International Medical Corps. He had a proposal for us. He told us we

11 should express our willingness and interest to establish cooperation

12 between us doctors, Croats and Muslims alike, that is the Croatian Defence

13 Council and the BH Army. I took the opportunity, because I was a member

14 of the parliament at the time, and I addressed Mr. Mile Akmadzic, who was

15 at the time the Prime Minister of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and I asked him,

16 in document D1/358, to mediate and to offer to the chief of the BH Army,

17 the chief of the medical personnel of that army, cooperation on our

18 behalf, and that is the Exhibit D1/350, in which I requested -- I asked my

19 colleague to write a document which would show our common wish for

20 cooperation, and I told him I would co-sign that document.

21 Q. And did you speak to Mr. Simon? Did you inform him of the course

22 that that operation was taking, et cetera?

23 A. After that, Dr. Simon made certain efforts to help both the Croats

24 and the Muslims. However, he didn't obtain that document signed by the

25 two of us, because once again, I didn't have an answer. I didn't have a

Page 12390

1 reply.

2 Q. Why did Mr. Simon make such a request? What was the reason?

3 A. I think he went to the Croatian embassy in America, I don't know

4 how, through what line. He asked for contact with some of the doctors,

5 some of the Croatian doctors in Bosnia. The reasons he gave were that he

6 had had experience -- that he had had experience as a doctor in many

7 international conflicts, and he said that after visiting Bosnia, he would

8 probably give testimony before the American congress with regard to the

9 situation in Bosnia. He thought that if we reached such an agreement, we

10 would be unable to prevent any possible conflict, and that he would give

11 testimony before the congress and we would get international help for our

12 cooperation. Even if this only consisted of verbal support.

13 Q. Thank you. Do you ever anything else to say? Because I would

14 like to move on to another subject. The break is approaching.

15 A. Well, I'm under a lot of pressure because time is short. There is

16 also a story, one of many stories, about Mostar, and which relates to

17 cooperation with individuals. For example, there is a well known story

18 about Sally Baker.

19 Q. I was just going to ask you about that, but if we have finished

20 with this subject, I would like to move on.

21 A. Yes, I think we have.

22 Q. Since you have mentioned Sally Baker, could the Registrar please

23 prepare documents D1/349 and document D1/383? And then could you inform

24 the Trial Chamber of Sally Baker, tell them who Sally Baker is.

25 A. Sally Baker is one of -- one of the many persons who went to that

Page 12391












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Page 12392

1 war area and tried to help and to reduce the suffering, et cetera. Among

2 other things, she asked for authorisation, or rather for help, to go to

3 the eastern side of Mostar and to assist, provide with aid, or rather

4 withdraw and treat in hospitals several children who were ill on the

5 eastern side.

6 Q. I apologise for interrupting you. Could we also show document

7 D1/388 and put it on the ELMO? Those are photographs from that book.

8 D1/388. That's not the document.

9 A. I would first of all like to comment on this document, D1/349.

10 Q. But very briefly, please.

11 A. That's part of a series of documents that I had to issue in order

12 to provide some kind of aid, to provide each other with some kind of aid.

13 Sally Baker didn't have a vehicle. She asked us for a vehicle. I

14 explained that we had about 80 vehicles that had been destroyed in the

15 course of the conflict in Mostar and that we had no vehicles. But she

16 said, "In that case, I can't go to the other side." I had no choice. I

17 thought that the mission was an important one and that it was my duty to

18 help her. So I ordered that she be given a vehicle. That happened on

19 about 3 occasions I think.

20 Q. Could you please have a look at the photographs on your right-hand

21 side and could you say -- could you tell us what they depict? And here

22 you've been called "Baby brigadier." Could you comment on that? Did you

23 have the rank of brigadier and why "Baby brigadier"?

24 A. I think baby, well that's something she wrote in the book because

25 at the time I was ten years younger, and in her opinion, she thought I was

Page 12393

1 some kind of a child who was in the war, who was helping, who was treating

2 patients, et cetera. The second photograph is a photograph taken just

3 before she left for the eastern side, before she went to the eastern

4 side. What is most interesting here is perhaps the fact that she

5 succeeded in taking -- in bringing in about six children in one ambulance,

6 and their mothers too. And it's very important to say that when she

7 brought them over to our side, she wanted to deliver them to UNPROFOR and

8 have UNPROFOR take them somewhere, where they could be treated. But

9 UNPROFOR refused to do so. So once again, she contacted me, and asked me

10 for help. I suggested the hospital in Mostar, but the relatives or rather

11 the children's mothers wanted to leave Mostar and go to Split. At that

12 point, I asked the chief nurse of the Split hospital, a good guardian

13 angel of all those from Bosnia-Herzegovina, her name was Marija Zupanovic,

14 who took in those children and their mothers, and they continued to be

15 provided with treatment in the hospital in Split. And some of them

16 went abroad.

17 Q. Let's move on to another subject, if we can deal with it before

18 the break. And I would like to ask Your Honours to allow me to continue

19 for about ten or 15 minutes and I think that I will then be able to

20 conclude the matter. Should I have a break now or should I continue?

21 Very well. Let's turn to the 9th of May, 1993, in Mostar. 9th of May,

22 1993. What are you aware of? Where were you? It would be best for you

23 to talk about it, if we finished with the subject of Sally Baker. If

24 there is anything else you would like to say?

25 A. No, not at the moment because I think it would be a waste of

Page 12394

1 time.

2 Q. When you mention the 9th of May, are you referring to the date

3 when the conflict in Mostar began?

4 A. Yes. Because I don't know the dates any more.

5 A. Yes, yes, that's right? Well, one day earlier, a few days prior

6 to that date, I noticed, and the doctors who were born in Mostar, who were

7 born down there, told me of this, they told me that the situation in the

8 town was such that there was a possibility of a conflict between the army

9 and the HVO. They said that this was possible. I didn't want to believe

10 this. But I think it was on the 9th of August, a day earlier [As

11 translated], I went to the Main Staff of the HVO, and I asked them whether

12 they had any information about the possibility of a conflict, because I

13 thought that we had to be prepared, I thought that we doctors had to be

14 present there.

15 Q. I apologise. I have to interrupt you, because in the transcript

16 it didn't say that -- it doesn't say that you were there a day earlier on

17 the 8th. I can't follow. And it says August, not May. So you can see

18 what sort of problems we have on a daily basis. This is why I'm asking

19 you to slow down.

20 A. I understand the interpreters very well and those who are typing

21 this. I think it is most difficult for them.

22 Q. You are quite right. Please repeat that briefly?

23 A. Well, on the 8th, I was in the staff, the 8th of May, 1993. We

24 doctors, we are always ready, but I asked them whether it was possible

25 that we might have to be engaged in a more -- at a more intense level.

Page 12395

1 They told me, "Doctor, sleep peacefully. There will be no conflict."

2 They weren't expecting a conflict. I can claim this categorically. I

3 went to a hotel in Citluk and together with several other doctors, after a

4 certain period of time, after a certain time, I went to sleep, naturally.

5 And early in the morning, I was called and they asked me where I was,

6 given that there was a war going on in Mostar. I was really very

7 surprised. Several of us entered Mostar. We went towards the hospital on

8 the hill where, let's say, my headquarters was located, and the shooting

9 in Mostar, or rather the noise of weapons, I don't know what kind of

10 weapons, I'm not in a position -- I'm not capable of identifying them, the

11 noise was incredible, and I think that on that day, there were about 100

12 seriously wounded people, and then the days followed on.

13 Q. Could you please tell us how many people died and what sort of

14 weapons caused these deaths mostly, that you are aware of personally?

15 A. I didn't personally take care of people and I didn't personally

16 operate on them, but at the time, the greatest number of those who died or

17 were seriously wounded were people who had been hit directly in the head.

18 I remembered afterwards, after that, I suggested that -- or I

19 advised officers to order their soldiers to wear helmets. I wore a

20 helmet.

21 Q. Can you perhaps remember the number of people who were hit in the

22 head, if you know this? I won't insist on it, if you can't say so. More

23 or less were these civilians or soldiers? If you know, naturally.

24 A. Well, naturally, I don't know the number but it's not a problem by

25 going through the hospital protocol, it's not a problem to establish this,

Page 12396

1 to check this information, but I think that there were about 100 people

2 who died or who were seriously, very seriously wounded, and this concerned

3 direct hits to the head or to the neck.

4 Q. I don't think this will be a leading question and there won't be

5 any objections from my colleague. So can we conclude that these people

6 were wounded by snipers can we conclude -- come to this conclusion on the

7 basis of that information?

8 A. I said what sort of wounds were in question, how these people had

9 been wounded so I think it's not necessary to comment further on this.

10 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Bagaric. It is now time for a break.

11 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I assume this is the

12 right time for a break. I would like to ask you for another 15 minutes

13 after the break and I have about another two subjects and after that, I

14 will have concluded with my examination.

15 JUDGE LIU: Well, we'll resume at 4.00 sharp.

16 --- Recess taken at 3.34 p.m.

17 --- On resuming at 4.02 p.m.

18 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Scott?

19 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. President. If we could go to private

20 session just for one moment so I don't inadvertently disclose something

21 that shouldn't be disclosed?

22 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we will go to the private session.

23 [Private session]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 12397












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Page 12398












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Page 12399












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Page 12400

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [Open session]

21 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

22 Q. I'll now put a question to you, later I shall hand you over to the

23 Prosecutor. Have you heard about some detention centre or prison which

24 was called the Heliodrom? What do you know about this place? And did you

25 take any action with regard to this place, your doctors, et cetera?

Page 12401

1 Mr. Bagaric put your headphones on your head like I have so that they

2 don't fall off all the time. You see, you can press them here.

3 A. So the question is whether I've heard about the Heliodrom? Of

4 course, unfortunately I have. It would be far better if no one had heard

5 about a single detention centre. However, since we are talking about the

6 Heliodrom detention centre, yes, I was there on one occasion. I went

7 there personally. What can I say about that place? What I think is

8 important to this Tribunal is that at the beginning of the conflict

9 between the BH Army and the Croats, there was a lack of confidence, a

10 terrible lack of confidence between the population, among the population,

11 in Mostar. And certainly, in the units of the HVO, which had a mixed

12 composition, so the lack of trust in those units was intense. So when

13 members of the BH Army, for this or for that reason, left the HVO or

14 rather in many cases unfortunately they agreed to do so in the course of

15 the evening, and they turned their weapons against their colleagues,

16 against people who had been their colleagues before, and then there turned

17 into a lack of trust towards the Muslims in general in the town, and

18 vice versa. So there was mistrust of the Muslims, with regard to the

19 Croats. And I think that the reason for this is that, well, people were

20 gathered, collected, and they were placed in the centre. This was one of

21 the results of this event. And it was perhaps in order to prevent BH Army

22 members from killing Croats, and partly, it was in order to protect

23 ourselves, protect themselves and to protect those people among them

24 because unfortunately no one could be a guarantee for anyone in that town

25 any more, and life unfortunately was worth very little.

Page 12402

1 Among those detainees, naturally at the very beginning, there were

2 probably or rather I am sure that there were people who could not be

3 included in the groups that I have mentioned. So people who were under 18

4 years of age or people who were over 65 years of age and so on. So

5 sometime at the beginning of the conflict, that was the first time I heard

6 about people being detained. The first time I heard about people being

7 detained was at the meeting I mentioned with Halilovic when he accused

8 Petkovic and said that we had detained certain people. That was on the

9 4th of May. After that, I know for sure that all these people were

10 released because that had been agreed at the meeting. That was one of the

11 issues that had been agreed on at the meeting. After this open conflict

12 that I have been speaking about, the situation in the town was such that

13 it was impossible to get information about this or to find out about how

14 events were being influenced. So there was an open conflict which was

15 taking place on a daily basis in the town itself. The medical services

16 were making a great effort in order to treat all those who had been

17 wounded, and at that time, I would say that this was a priority for us.

18 Immediately after that period of time, I think that was somewhere in the

19 middle of July, because of a trip I had arranged for Canada earlier on, I

20 was absent. I think I wasn't in Mostar for about 20 or 25 days. When I

21 returned, I think that was in mid-July, in the meantime the conflict

22 between the BH Army and the HVO had unfortunately escalated.

23 Then I heard from my colleagues, other doctors, about the

24 existence of the -- of this detention centre. They told me that, that

25 they were involved in looking after all -- of all the detainees who needed

Page 12403

1 medical care. They also told me that they looked after them every day. I

2 made a decision -- the following decision. I thought that one could not

3 deny the existence of the centre, if the centre did exist, as it did, and

4 I invited the member of the Helsinki watch for the protection of human

5 rights from Zagreb, professor Slobodan Lang, and together with him, I went

6 to the Heliodrom. I must admit that my first meeting with Heliodrom --

7 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Scott?

8 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, perhaps we could get some foundation of

9 time as to when this visit to the Heliodrom was.

10 JUDGE LIU: Yes, please. Witness, would you please tell us about

11 the time when you visited Heliodrom?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Unfortunately, I can't. I can't

13 remember the date. But I know that it must have been in mid-July, but I

14 can't say that with certainty. But I can check that. So the Heliodrom

15 left a strong impact on me and when we got there, somebody approached me,

16 one of the people who were there, and told me that there were a number of

17 people detained there. I asked him how many. And he said several

18 thousand. I was very concerned with the overall situation regarding the

19 war, the battle front, and when I saw this detention centre and when it

20 had occurred to me that a number of such detention centres existed all

21 over Bosnia and Herzegovina, where Croats were detained and that in these

22 centres, people perished in huge numbers, after that, together with

23 Slobodan Lang, I drafted a certain plan as to what we should do, as

24 doctors. We made contact with the doctors who were in charge in that

25 area, and we talked to them.

Page 12404

1 Secondly, the International Red Cross had already been aware of

2 that and we also talked to them. We decided to become active in order to

3 prevent possible suffering of those people, and in order to provide the

4 international organisations with a better insight into the situation, with

5 a view to preventing any large-scale suffering. During the next few days,

6 our doctors supervised the situation in this detention centre. However,

7 we decided to establish a team of doctors outside the centre. I was one

8 of the members of that team. We also appointed the leader of that team,

9 that was Dr. Curic a specialist in infectious diseases. We also had a

10 specialist in general medicine, Dr. Sandrka. Dr. Lang was also a member

11 of that team and also one of his assistants, Mr. Culo. As a result of the

12 work of that team, we accomplished the following: We established a

13 medical team within the detention centre. We established a small

14 department, a small ward, where all those who needed help in the detention

15 centre would be treated. We assigned a place and a person in charge of

16 medicines and logistics, which had to do with medicine. So we established

17 a little storage of medicines. We also assigned an ambulance vehicle,

18 which was dedicated for the needs of the detention centre. All the people

19 who were there and who required medical treatment would, from then on, be

20 transported to the hospital where they were treated.

21 So in a nutshell, what was our goal and what we achieved? We

22 wanted to prevent individual and large-scale suffering of the people in

23 the detention centre. Secondly, we wanted to treat all those who needed

24 medical care. And thirdly, we wanted to prevent the breakout of

25 epidemics, of any contagious disease. Fourthly, we wanted to cooperate,

Page 12405

1 as much as we could, with international organisations.

2 We achieved the following. All those who required medical

3 assistance indeed received it. All those who needed to be referred to the

4 hospital were sent to the hospital and treated there. We enabled

5 Dr. Mirsad Stanjak who was also a detainee in the detention centre, to

6 have supervision of all that work with in the detention centre and to

7 communicate with whoever visited the centre. We partly succeeded in

8 providing for an efficient communication with international organisations

9 because the food that was brought for the detainees was in short supply,

10 and did not meet their needs. As for other structures are concerned,

11 primarily the structures within the HVO, we succeeded in preventing, i.e.,

12 reducing, any -- if there was any mistreatment of the people there, and

13 one other thing that we managed to succeed in was to prevent a large-scale

14 suffering.

15 And finally, I would like to say that the detention centre for us

16 was unfortunately one of the non-desired outcomes, that we did not expect,

17 and that is why our knowledge as to how we should treat that centre, what

18 to do, what the role of the Red Cross was, in terms of that centre, so at

19 the beginning, our knowledge was really modest in that respect. However,

20 despite all the sufferings of the people who were detained and by the

21 sheer fact that they were detained they suffered, so despite all that, we

22 managed to achieve most of our objectives. So much for me.

23 Q. Thank you Dr. Bagaric. Can you tell us something that my learned

24 colleague is also going to ask you about and I don't want to waste any

25 time, you said that Dr. Lang came as a member of the Helsinki watch.

Page 12406

1 Some witnesses said here in this courtroom that they had another function?

2 A. What function, I do not understand.

3 Q. Did he ever a political function in Croatia at the time?

4 A. That was --

5 Q. I apologise. I'm sorry for interrupting. I believe that this is

6 a very unusual situation for you, but whenever I deem it necessary to

7 interrupt you, I will. Don't please hold it against me. So let's go back

8 to Dr. Lang, the Croatian Helsinki watch was a non-governmental

9 organisation, wasn't it?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Here in this courtroom, we heard testimony that he arrived as an

12 adviser to President Tudjman.

13 A. If that is true, then -- Tudjman -- but at the time, Dr. Lang did

14 not have any political or any other role. He was just a professor of

15 public health in the -- at the Andrija Stampar school in Zagreb and he was

16 a member of the Helsinki watch of Zagreb and before that, and at the time,

17 and today, he has had a lot of experience with humanitarian aid, and

18 providing humanitarian help.

19 Q. I may be asking you some unusual -- some strange questions but let

20 me explain why I'm doing that. Was he prone to drinking? Did he drink

21 alcohol, as far as you know?

22 A. I spent a lot of time with Dr. Lang. I never saw the man having

23 as much as a glass of beer, let alone wine or spirits, and I claim here

24 before you that nobody could ever see him drunk because, I don't know

25 whether I'm allowed to say this here, but I shall say it, because he is on

Page 12407












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13 English transcripts.













Page 12408

1 medication which do not go well with alcohol. And he is really not prone

2 to alcohol. And I never saw him drinking. So this is a lie.

3 Q. Did he have a special position or attitude towards other people

4 who were not Croats, to your knowledge?

5 A. Who, Slobodan Lang? He has his position on everything, I should

6 think so. I believe that he has a position on -- and attitude towards all

7 nations, but his general position is that all people are equal, and that

8 all people deserve help if they need help, and in his work, he has

9 demonstrated that, and I can give you several examples for that if the

10 Honourable Court will allow me to do that.

11 Q. No. It would be a waste of time. I just would like to show you

12 Exhibit D1/382, page 33, a short question.

13 A. Before that, if I may, Your Honours, this is a gift which I have

14 carried on me around my neck, but today I'm wearing a tie so I can't do

15 that today. This is what Slobodan Lang gave me. This depicts three

16 symbols, three large religions as a sign of universality which does not

17 exclude any religious, either Jewish, Islam, or Catholic. I'm a person

18 who is trying to be a good Catholic. I'm also entitled to wear this

19 around my neck.

20 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I've asked for Exhibit D1/382. And

21 also, Madam Registrar, can you also prepare D1/348 and D1/347 and 372?

22 And this will be the basis for my last set of questions. We are going to

23 show you these documents and we are drawing to the end of this

24 examination.

25 Q. Again, another unusual question: Do you know what is Dr. Lang's

Page 12409

1 either nationality or religion? Do you happen to know?

2 A. I don't think I have the right to talk about Dr. Lang, because of

3 what I said and what I can confirm, I don't see the need to talk any

4 longer about this man.

5 Q. Let me just tell you that somebody in this courtroom said that

6 Dr. Lang had a very negative position about Muslims. So this is not by

7 chance that I'm asking you what is his religion or what is his

8 nationality. And this exhibit, 1/382?

9 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President again as I have several times in the

10 last few sessions, I object to these argumentative questions. That

11 question that was just put to the witness had no more -- only for the

12 effect of educating the witness and talking the witness into answer that

13 counsel wanted. I object to that form of question. It's happened

14 repeatedly now. And we object.

15 JUDGE LIU: Well, just ask a simple question to this witness.

16 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Certainly, Your Honours. I'm not

17 trying to lead this witness. This witness cannot be led anywhere. This

18 witness is testifying the way he wants to testify. He can not be led into

19 saying anything by anybody. But I think that this is a very important

20 question.

21 Q. Please be so kind, I know that you're avoiding any mention of

22 anybody's religion or nationality but still, can you tell us if you ever

23 noticed that Dr. Lang would have a negative attitude towards the Muslims?

24 A. I would like to thank Mr. Scott for saying -- for suggesting that

25 I may be saying what somebody else wants me to say. But rest assured,

Page 12410

1 Mr. Scott, and Your Honours, that I will say only what I know, what is the

2 truth and I will say that everywhere and at all times. Dr. Lang is a

3 person who spent time before the war with miners from Trepca, and they are

4 all Albanians, all Muslims. He spent sometime with them under the ground,

5 in the mines, and he went on strike, on hunger strike, with them, because

6 they were persecuted by the Serbs. That was before the war.

7 During the war, Dr. Lang helped everybody, after the war, during

8 the Kosovo crisis, Dr. Lang went to Kosovo. Dr. Lang is a universal

9 person when it comes to his attitude towards religion. So it is not my

10 place to say anything about his family tree or ancestry and I don't want

11 to comment on that, but one thing I can say for sure, that never ever did

12 I hear from that man a word about anybody in any situation at any time.

13 Q. Thank you. Now you have documents in front of you. Can you

14 please give us your comments and we shall close with that?

15 A. Here I can see several papers, documents talking about my

16 experience during my work, during the war. Some of them also concern

17 Dr. Lang. For example I'm holding in my hand document D1/347. That is an

18 article which has been published by Richard Horton the editor-in-chief

19 of Lancet, and Lancet is one of the leading scientific, I apologise for

20 telling you this I'm sure you know but it is one of the leading scientific

21 papers and on the basis of our experience, he published a -- something

22 about our attempts to mitigate the suffering of our enemies at the time,

23 during the war. But also our sufferings, the suffering of all of us, to

24 my mind. He mentions in this article that this is something that the

25 world should look up to, that the world should follow -- follow in our

Page 12411

1 foot steps because it shows a wonderful attitude towards the humanitarian

2 aid and it shows wonderful efficiency of the medical service during the

3 war. So on the same subject, I spoke in Montreal, the topic was the

4 consequences of war on people, hospitals and medical personnel from the

5 public health respective view. As a result of that speech, the article

6 that I'm holding in my hand, D1/347, and especially article D1/382, which

7 was presented by Slobodan Lang and myself in Strasbourg on the conference

8 on medicine and human rights. So these are the attempts in order to

9 advance the international humanitarian law, based on our experience.

10 Among the proposals which are listed here --

11 Q. I apologise. I would like to speed you up a little because the

12 time is constrained. Just a short commentary because everybody can read

13 the document.

14 A. We proposed setting up of the so-called global hospital. We

15 proposed some improvements with regard to detention centres. And we

16 touched upon many other subjects. At a conference in Canada, this

17 knowledge was also used and the whole conference wanted to use our

18 experience in order to come to the new knowledge on the prevention of war,

19 prevention on hate and on how to be more efficient.

20 Q. I'm again interrupting you. I want your comment on 1/348 and

21 1/372, please.

22 A. D1/348 is an overview of the sufferings of Croats in central

23 Bosnia, in the Neretva valley. It's just an overview of all the

24 sufferings. D1/372 is relative to an issue that I can talk about here,

25 because I want this to be heard. I want this to be known. This is

Page 12412

1 relative to the fact that Bosnia-Herzegovina as a state has survived.

2 That is my testimony. That is something that I have the need to tell you

3 here, as the witness of that time. So it has survived primarily as the

4 result of the influence of the international community, and to a large

5 extent, as the result of the contribution of the people to which I

6 belong.

7 In a lecture that I delivered in Harvard I said that the survival

8 of Bosnia-Herzegovina is due much more to the Croats in Bosnia and

9 Herzegovina than to any other people in Bosnia and Herzegovina. I

10 explained that by the fact that we Croats were the first ones to vote for

11 the independence of Bosnia and Herzegovina, at our referendum, we voted

12 for an integral Bosnia and Herzegovina. The Croatian Defence Council was

13 the first established defence unit in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

14 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Bagaric, we have heard all those evidence already.

15 I hope you could be as concise as possible.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And finally, let me finish. I

17 understand you for warning me. Thank you for your warning. Document

18 1/372 demonstrates Croatian isolated zones during the war in Bosnia,

19 besides the Croatian Defence Council and the BH Army, and huge aid from

20 Croatia, in terms of medical assistance and receipt of Bosnian and

21 Herzegovinian refugees, these Croat enclaves remained until the end of the

22 war as the connecting tissue of the defence of Bosnia and Herzegovina and

23 owing to them, the Dayton Accords could be signed, they were preceded by

24 the Washington Agreements and the condition of those were cantons, some of

25 which were to be mixed. So the fighting of the Croats in central Bosnia

Page 12413

1 and Herzegovina was the foundation for resolving the conflict between

2 Muslims and Croats, i.e., for creating a federation and later on, the

3 peace accords in -- for the entire Bosnia-Herzegovina. I would conclude

4 with that unless --

5 Q. Yes, I have another question, I apologise, Dr. Bagaric, there are

6 rules that we have to adhere to and we have to respect this court. Did

7 you ever see Dr. Lang -- so the first question is do you know

8 Mr. Naletilic personally?

9 A. What do you mean do I know him? Well, at the moment I can assume

10 who Mr. Naletilic is because among other things, I saw certain photographs

11 when he was arrested, and out of the two or three people sitting here, I

12 can guess who he is but I don't know him personally, I don't know

13 Mr. Naletilic personally.

14 Q. Have you seen or did Mr. Lang tell you about this or were you

15 present, have you seen Mr. Naletilic and Mr. Lang visiting the Heliodrom

16 together?

17 A. I'm not aware of this, and Mr. Lang never mentioned it.

18 Q. And how many times did Dr. Lang go to the Heliodrom? Were you

19 always with him?

20 A. I don't know how many times Lang was at the Heliodrom but I do

21 know that I never heard a comment from him about having seen this person

22 or that person or having been with this person or that person and

23 certainly not with Mr. Naletilic.

24 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] That would be all, Your Honours. I

25 have no further questions. I thank you, Mr. Bagaric, for your patience.

Page 12414

1 The Prosecutor will now cross-examine you. Thank you for coming.

2 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Yes, Mr. Scott? Cross-examination.

3 MR. SCOTT: I'll just note for the record, Your Honour, that

4 Mr. Krsnik's direct examination took just slightly under four hours.

5 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Scott, we have calculated the time spent for

6 Mr. Krsnik but any way, thank you very much to remind me of that fact.

7 MR. SCOTT: Thank you.

8 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, that fact is simply not

9 correct. I can't understand how Mr. Scott calculated the time, four

10 hours. Altogether, I can tell you precisely, one hour and 15 minutes,

11 two hours, not even three hours. Not even three hours. I really don't

12 see how this was calculated. Maybe we should use a stop watch to

13 calculate it. I really don't understand how the time is being calculated.

14 Maybe some other sort of time is being calculated.

15 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Krsnik, you have to understand that the

16 Registrar also calculates the time you used for the direct examination. I

17 think both parties have to trust the calculation made by the Registrar.

18 According to her calculation, it's about four hours.

19 Cross-examined by Mr. Scott:

20 Q. Sir, in the latter part of November, 1993, was there anyone who

21 was filled the position that might be called the minister, the HVO

22 Minister of Health or some such -- that may mot be the exact title.

23 Please understand I'm not asking you specific words but was there someone

24 who filled a position that was something like the HVO or Herceg-Bosna

25 Minister of Health?

Page 12415












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Page 12416

1 A. There was the position of the director of the health department,

2 not a minister, but I think that at that time it was called a

3 subdepartment for health. It was a part of the government, of the civil

4 structure.

5 Q. And who was the head of the health department as you described it,

6 as of mid-November, 1993?

7 A. A friend of mine, whose name is Ivan Sarac and he too contributed

8 to a great extent and helped us implement what we did in the course of the

9 war, helped us to provide health care to all those who needed it.

10 Q. And how long did you continue to be the assistant, essentially the

11 assistant Minister of Defence for medicine, for medical services or

12 health? How long did you continue in that position?

13 A. I was, we could say, a coordinator of the main medical

14 headquarters, directly prior to the formation, not of that ministry but of

15 the department, of the Defence department, and I think that this was up

16 until, I think, the Defence department was formed -- I think it was in

17 August. I can't be exact. August, 1992. I was the assistant of the

18 chief of the Defence department for health. That's what it was called.

19 And I had this -- held this post from that date right up until the Dayton

20 agreement, until the end of the war.

21 Q. And just for date purposes, perhaps you can assist the Chamber,

22 when you say the Dayton agreement, so what date was that?

23 A. I don't know the date of the Dayton agreement, but I don't know

24 the exact date but it was in 1995, I think it was -- well, I don't know

25 exactly. Perhaps the first half of 1995. I don't know. I can't

Page 12417

1 remember. That's when the peace agreement was concluded in Dayton.

2 Q. So it can we understand, and most importantly can the Judges, sir,

3 understand that throughout the conflict between the Croats and the Muslims

4 or for that matter all of 1993, all of 1994, you were the most senior

5 HVO official, if you will, dedicated or having the task of health

6 services; is that right?

7 A. I was an HVO officer, or rather the commander of the health

8 service of the -- the commander of the so-called war health, the war

9 component, and that related to the organisation of health in units, the

10 organisation of war hospitals, and during that period, that was the role I

11 had.

12 Q. Let me repeat my question, then. Throughout -- I'll go back to

13 the late 1992 just to be clear. Throughout the second half of

14 approximately of 1992, all of 1993, and all of 1994, you were the most

15 senior health and medical-related official or officer in the HVO or the

16 government of Herceg-Bosna, correct?

17 A. No, that's not correct.

18 Q. Who had medical --

19 A. Just a minute.

20 Q. Who had a medical or health-related function more senior to you in

21 either the HVO or the government of either respectively the Croatian

22 Community of Herceg-Bosna or later the Croatian Republic Herceg-Bosna?

23 Who had a more senior position than you in those areas?

24 A. If you will allow me and if you don't interrupt me, I will answer

25 your question. With regard to the organisation of military health, health

Page 12418

1 that was related to units, no one was more senior than I was, no one.

2 When we are talking about civil health, that's a different segment and was

3 responsible for the medical centres which weren't in the war zone. And

4 that part, I don't know, it's part of the government, whatever you call

5 it, the government of Herceg-Bosna. I wasn't in the government. I was a

6 member of the -- within the Ministry of Defence I was an assistant to the

7 minister of defence, and I was the assistant for health. No one of the

8 doctors was above me, no one -- I was under no one's orders in that

9 segment of the health service.

10 Q. Can you please assist the Chamber with saying who then was the

11 mast senior health or medicine-related official on the government side,

12 as you just described it?

13 A. The chief of the so-called subdepartment for health, whom I have

14 already mentioned. He was a member of the government.

15 Q. Can you give us his name again, just so it's clear, please?

16 A. Dr. Ivan Saric.

17 Q. Sir, during the wartime, we can all understand that under wartime

18 conditions, situations in a field hospital could be clearly quite severe

19 and unpleasant. The situation in the West Mostar hospital was terrible,

20 wasn't it?

21 A. Could you explain what terrible means?

22 Q. No, sir, you tell me. What were the conditions then? Was it

23 pleasant? Did you have all the supplies you needed? Was it a pleasant

24 place to work or was it a very unpleasant and terrible situation?

25 A. Your question related to the west part of Mostar.

Page 12419

1 Q. The west side hospital, sir.

2 A. It's not pleasant to work anywhere during a war. We didn't have

3 enough doctors. There was a shortage of equipment. And medical supplies

4 were lacking too. But as I said, compared with the east side of Mostar,

5 we were in a good situation. But when you compare it with the east side

6 of Mostar.

7 Q. And that's my next question, sir. Isn't it true that, as terrible

8 as conditions may have been in the west side hospital, conditions in the

9 hospital in East Mostar were far worse in every respect? Weren't they?

10 A. Absolutely, that's correct.

11 Q. If I could have the usher please show you Exhibit D1/376. I may

12 have it wrong. Excuse me. I may have -- excuse me, Mr. Usher, I may have

13 the wrong number. Sorry, give me one moment, please. My apology. I'm

14 sorry, it's 354, if you could show the witness, please, Exhibit D1/354.

15 Mr. Usher if you could assist us, please, by putting the English version

16 on the ELMO.

17 Q. Sir, the date of this document that you've told us you prepared is

18 the 14th of April, 1993. Do you see that?

19 A. Yes, I do.

20 Q. And that was substantially before any major armed conflict between

21 the Muslims and Croats in Herzegovina; is that correct?

22 A. Before any major conflict, in Mostar, yes.

23 Q. And can you assist us, please, with why the name of the hospital

24 as reflected in the first sentence under the title or section heading

25 called, "Communication". It says this: "A meeting of physicians, Croats

Page 12420

1 and Muslims, service heads, and the command of the HVO regional war

2 hospital, Mostar." Why was it the HVO regional war hospital, sir?

3 A. Because that's what its name was.

4 Q. Sir, why wasn't it just simply called the Mostar regional

5 hospital? What was the significance of claiming that it was an HVO

6 hospital?

7 A. Because the decision on naming that hospital was brought by the

8 municipal council of the town of Mostar, at a time when it had its

9 government, it had its Commander of Defence, and that was a time when I

10 think -- I think Jasmin Jaganjac, who at the time was the commander of the

11 Defence of the town and was later an officer in the BH Army, he

12 personally, and a representative of the municipal council, named that

13 hospital and decided that it should be a war hospital, from the time of

14 the conflict with the Serbs. That was from the time of the conflict with

15 the Serbs, so at an earlier date, a date prior to this date, when this

16 document was written, this hospital was already called a war hospital

17 because a decision had already been made to that effect, and primarily, I

18 said this on several times, because of the war situation, because it was

19 surrounded. Nothing else.

20 Q. It's true, is it not, sir, that from the spring of 1992, and

21 continuing through to April of 1993 and thereafter, Mostar, the city of

22 Mostar, and its government, was controlled by the HVO, correct?

23 A. I went to Mostar, I think it was in 1992, maybe in September.

24 What happened in Mostar before that date, before that time, I know what

25 the situation was with the organisation of health, but for me to talk to

Page 12421

1 you about who had authority, power, in Mostar after the first free

2 elections, well, I really can't do that but the results of the free

3 elections in Mostar defined the power structure in Mostar, as is the case

4 everywhere in the world.

5 Q. From September 1992, sir, when you arrived there, continuing to

6 April, 1993, and thereafter, the HVO controlled the government of Mostar

7 and the infrastructure in Mostar, correct?

8 A. The HVO, has both a military and a civil structure. And a

9 decision was taken about this just before the conflict, and during the

10 conflict, or rather during the Serbian aggression against Bosnia and

11 Herzegovina. So I'll repeat this: Up until the war with the Serbs, the

12 authorities functioned like authorities everywhere in the world, in

13 Mostar. The conflict with the Serbs, or rather the Serbian aggression and

14 the formation of the HVO, well, if we are talking about the military

15 component in the town, it was under -- the town was under the command of

16 the HVO, and the HVO liberated the town from the Serbs, too, but with

17 regard to this question, as to who was in command of the town and certain

18 other structures, I really don't know. I just didn't deal with that. It

19 was not a problem for me.

20 Q. It's your position, then, sir, before this Chamber, that, for

21 instance, in June and July of 1993, then, are you telling this Chamber the

22 Muslims had just as much control in the government of West Mostar and most

23 of Mostar, as the Croats did?

24 A. In June and July, 1993, no one had control over anything, because

25 it was war. So in June and July, 1993, it was a time of war. So there

Page 12422

1 was part of the town which was under HVO control and there was part of the

2 town which was under the BH Army, under the control of the BH Army. I

3 don't understand what you want to ask me, what you want me to say.

4 Q. When Herceg-Bosna was created, sir, the Croatian Community of

5 Herceg-Bosna, Mostar was declared the capital of Herceg-Bosna, wasn't it?

6 A. I don't think this declaration was ever made, or in fact I don't

7 know, but I think that the formation of Herceg-Bosna didn't have as its

8 objective the declaration of a capital, and the declaration of

9 Herceg-Bosna some sort of creation, some sort of structure, because

10 Herceg-Bosna during the war and after the war, right up until the signing

11 of the peace agreement or let's say up until the time when the government

12 of Herceg-Bosna ceased to function, it was a territorial unit of Bosnia

13 and Herzegovina, which means that in one of its founding documents, it

14 says that the state of Bosnia and Herzegovina is respected. So in all the

15 documents that I saw then, in this document here too, the document that

16 you gave me, it says the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina at the top, the

17 Croatian community of Herceg-Bosna, the Defence department. So it was

18 part of Bosnia and Herzegovina. It was a part of Bosnia-Herzegovina which

19 still hadn't fell into the hands of the Serbs. So I really don't know

20 anything about the capital. I really know nothing about Mostar as the

21 capital. I apologise. I really don't know how to it address you.

22 Q. Herceg-Bosna was a government, was it not, sir, with a president,

23 a legislature, judges, a military, postal service, the Croatian community

24 of Herceg-Bosna later became the Croatian Republic of Herceg-Bosna and it

25 was a government, sir, with all the characteristics of a government that

Page 12423












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Page 12424

1 most of us would recognise as a government, correct?

2 A. I apologise. When someone asked me, when the Prosecutor asks me,

3 whether that was correct, do I always have to say either yes or no or can

4 I provide an explanation?

5 JUDGE LIU: Of course, you could explain your views on this

6 subject. But first, you have to -- if possible, you have to answer yes or

7 no to that question.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour, and I would

9 like to say the following. To answer such a question by saying yes or no,

10 well, such -- providing such answers could be used to confirm what someone

11 wants to hear, whether it's the Defence or the Prosecution. So in such

12 matters, I would really like to ask you not to be compelled to answer by

13 saying yes or no. So the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna, later on it

14 was never territorially defined. It was never a separated territory. It

15 was never separated from Bosnia-Herzegovina. You asked me whether there

16 was a government there. Well, of course. There was a government in order

17 to introduce order and defend the territory. It's not possible to defend

18 territory if there is no order in existence. It was a government but it

19 wasn't a government which compromised Bosnia and Herzegovina or rather

20 which intended -- which wanted to separate from Bosnia and Herzegovina and

21 later on to ask for international recognition of some kind, et cetera, et

22 cetera. So, that is my answer.

23 Q. The government of Herceg-Bosna that you've just identified was

24 controlled by the HVO, correct?

25 A. No. The HVO was under the control of the legitimate

Page 12425

1 representatives of the government from the first multi-party elections.

2 So it is true that the HVO was under the control of the official

3 representatives of people from certain territory. That's my answer.

4 Q. Sir, the President of the Croatian community of Herceg-Bosna and

5 the Croatian Republic of Herceg-Bosna was a Bosnian Croat named Mate

6 Boban, correct? Is that a difficult question?

7 A. [In English] Yes, it's a very difficult question, why?

8 [Interpretation] I'll try and explain this to you. Mate Boban, he was

9 firstly a member of the parliament of Bosnia-Herzegovina and he was a

10 colleague of mine in parliament. Therefore, with the establishment of the

11 HVO or rather the establishment of the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna

12 and of the HVO et cetera, Mate Boban as a member of the parliament of

13 Bosnia and Herzegovina or rather a representative of the people, a

14 legitimate representative, he carried out these functions, he carried out

15 the functions of the duties of president, or rather of chief or I don't

16 know, in that territory. So to that extent, my answer to your question is

17 yes.

18 Q. And the President of the HVO government was a man named Jadranko

19 Prlic, who was also a Bosnian Croat, correct?

20 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik?

21 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, you can see that I

22 haven't been raising any objections but the Prosecutor is always allowing

23 himself to do things that he shouldn't be allowed to do. I respect all of

24 your decisions. You can see what Mr. Bagaric's testimony related to. I

25 don't know what these political questions are about, about the HZ HB, but

Page 12426

1 that was not something that I addressed in my direct examination, and the

2 gentleman didn't come here to testify about these facts and I didn't

3 question him about them either. And I would like to repeat, Your Honours,

4 and this is something I would like to it announce, I think that I'm going

5 to modify my form of examination because I don't want the

6 cross-examination to be taken -- made use of, one knows very well what the

7 purpose of cross-examination is. I have analysed all the witnesses, just

8 a moment ago, and the Prosecutor or the OTP, they have their investigation

9 teams and they have had seven years to carry out their investigations

10 and this is not something that should be done during cross-examination

11 under the cover of credibility.

12 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Krsnik, according to your 65 ter filings, we

13 understand this witness is only going to testify about war hospital and

14 all those matters related. But during your direct examinations, you asked

15 very extensive questions which out of the scope of that 65 ter filings.

16 In this aspect, I think the Prosecution is entitled to ask all those

17 related questions, which, as the witness said himself, Mr. Mate Boban

18 worked with him in the parliament.

19 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Yes, certainly, Your Honours. There

20 was one question at the beginning to which my learned friend objected,

21 when we started talking about the parliament of the Republic of Bosnia and

22 Herzegovina he objected immediately and after that I stopped talking about

23 politics. All the other questions were about the war hospital, the

24 organisation of health care and so on and so forth. And now he is using

25 the same questions that he objected to during my examination-in-chief. So

Page 12427

1 very often, my learned friend contradicts himself and he always interprets

2 things the way he chooses to interpret them and he does not allow the

3 other side, i.e. the defence to interpret things their way.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to answer

5 that question, I don't have a problem with that.

6 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Scott.

7 MR. SCOTT: I think it's time for a break, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE LIU: Well, we just heard that the witness would like to

9 answer this question, and we'll break now and after the break, we will

10 hear the answer from this witness. We'll resume at quarter to 6.00.

11 --- Recess taken at 5.17 p.m.

12 --- On resuming at 5.47 p.m.

13 JUDGE LIU: Well, Witness, you may answer that question.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can I please ask you a

15 favour? Actually can I ask you something?

16 JUDGE LIU: Yes, please.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know that it is not through fault

18 of yours or mine, I have been here for quite a long time. Is there any

19 way, I'm appealing to Mr. Prosecutor, is there anyway that my testimony

20 could be finished today? Otherwise, I have to stay for another weekend,

21 and this would very much dictate the way I answer the questions.

22 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Bagaric, before starting this hearing, this

23 Trial Chamber has done its utmost to try to find a courtroom and proper

24 time to finish your testimony today. But all our efforts have failed. So

25 I'm afraid that you have to stay here during the weekend. I'm sorry about

Page 12428

1 that.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you for your answer.

3 So I apologise. Can I ask the Prosecutor to repeat the question?

4 And I would also kindly ask him to understand me and try to do his best so

5 I don't have to stay here over the weekend, I can even promise that I will

6 be very short, up to the point, as long as I can go home.


8 Q. The question, sir, was is it not true, sir, that Jadranko Prlic

9 was the President of the HVO government and a Bosnian Croat?

10 A. I don't know whether he is a Croat, and I don't know whether he

11 was the President of the government all the time. However, one way to

12 answer this question is yes, but this is not true, because when I say yes,

13 then it is a generally known thing that Jadranko Prlic did discharge the

14 duties mentioned by the Prosecutor but the truth is a much broader thing

15 and it requires a certain explanation. The truth is, the whole

16 information and the whole information is as follows: Jadranko Prlic was

17 the Prime Minister of one part of Bosnia-Herzegovina during the war,

18 during which we defended ourselves from Serbia and during all this time

19 belonged to Bosnia and Herzegovina and which after the war was

20 incorporated, together with Republika Srpska, together with the areas

21 controlled by the BH Army, into Bosnia and Herzegovina. This would be a

22 much better answer, so to speak.

23 Q. Jadran Topic was the Mayor of Mostar and the HVO President of

24 Mostar, a Bosnian Croat, correct?

25 A. I don't know, I don't know.

Page 12429

1 Q. Where did you live during the war, sir, in 1993?

2 A. All over Bosnia and Herzegovina, in different places in Bosnia and

3 Herzegovina. I was in Posavina, I was in central Bosnia. I was in the

4 area of my native Tomislavgrad, where I have my house. I also was in

5 Mostar for a little while. I was even stationed in Citluk.

6 Q. Well, can you give us an idea a sir, again, of where you spent

7 most of your time in 1993, in terms of where you stayed, where you had

8 your residence, when you were not working?

9 A. I always worked. There was no single day when I didn't work. So

10 my family house is in Tomislavgrad municipality but that is where I spent

11 the least time.

12 Q. Where did you spend the most time?

13 A. In Bosnia and Herzegovina.

14 Q. No particular village, city or municipality? Is that right?

15 A. I think it would have been Tomislavgrad. I think I spent most

16 time in Tomislavgrad, if I measured the time, but I would have to do a

17 little research in order to be able to tell you that. I can't tell you

18 with certainty.

19 Q. My question to you in the last few moments was where you lived and

20 now I'm asking you separate question: Where was your principal office or

21 place of work during 1993?

22 A. It's different question and I thank you for it. We established

23 the medical headquarters in 1992 in Tomislavgrad. Why? Because

24 Tomislavgrad is in the area between Bosnia and Herzegovina, in a part

25 which is equally -- at an equal distance from all parts of

Page 12430

1 Bosnia-Herzegovina. And the office throughout the war remained there with

2 the personnel that we had and then, from late 1992, I spent some time in

3 Mostar, and after that, some time in Posusje. So I was in different

4 places and my office was partly throughout the war was in Tomislavgrad,

5 and the second part of my office was for a while in Mostar and later on in

6 Posusje.

7 Q. A moment ago you said you would try to give us short, responsive

8 answers. Listen to my question, please. Specifically directed to 1993.

9 I did not ask you about why it was put in Grude or why or anything about

10 1992. Where was your principal office or place of work during 1993?

11 A. I asked you before that and you didn't answer me. Are you going

12 to ask me short questions so that you can let me go home? If you want to

13 do that, then my answers will be brief. If not, then I really have all

14 the time in the world. I will be more specific and I will give you more

15 complete information. That may be of some use to you.

16 Q. Sir, I have no intentions of negotiating with you about my

17 cross-examination, my question to you and the question pending is where

18 was your principal office or place of work during 1993?

19 A. In 1993, my place of work, my office, was in Mostar, throughout

20 1993 and if you wish to know, I never had an office in Grude.

21 Q. So can the Judges understand, some of the important aspects of

22 this case, that throughout most of 1993, you actually worked in the city

23 of Mostar; is that right?

24 A. Yes. I believe that everybody can understand, not just the

25 Honourable Court. In 1993, I was in Mostar, that is my office was there,

Page 12431












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Page 12432

1 but I did not sit there all the time, because my area of authority was not

2 only Mostar but everywhere where the HVO was, and that was the entire area

3 of Bosnia and Herzegovina, wherever there were Croats. So I travelled a

4 lot, all over Bosnia and Herzegovina, even in that time.

5 Q. Sir, that is the reason for the questions which I'm putting to you

6 which are very simple so that the Judges can understand the basis of your

7 knowledge about various things that you've talked to us about. So I'm

8 trying to establish where you were and for how long. Now, did you spend

9 most of your time actually working in west -- West Mostar, or were you

10 equally out and about all parts of Herzegovina during 1993?

11 A. Most of my working hours, I spent in Mostar. I mentioned that I

12 was in Canada for some 20 days during that time. I must have been

13 elsewhere during that time but my office, my workplace, the workplace of

14 my colleagues who were in charge of the medical corps of the HVO, was in

15 Mostar. And now, when I see where you are headed, then, yes, the answer

16 is I spent most of the time in Mostar and my office was in Mostar.

17 Q. What was the approximate time period when you were in Canada? I

18 know it's a long time ago but your best estimate of the beginning date and

19 when you returned to Bosnia-Herzegovina?

20 A. I think that I left for Canada -- just a moment -- in the second

21 half of June, and I returned -- just a moment, please. No. Let me

22 correct myself. I think it was earlier that I left, and I returned before

23 the 20th of June. So this was between the end of May and the 20th of June

24 when I believe I returned. I have to try and remember that in comparison

25 with some other dates and events.

Page 12433

1 Q. So, sir, during that period of time, you have no firsthand

2 knowledge of anything that happened in Mostar, correct?

3 A. This is not correct. I knew what I could know. I had regular

4 contacts with the doctors who were in Mostar and I had information that

5 they had, and that was available to them, the information that was

6 relevant, and which was pertinent to the functioning of the medical care

7 of the Croatian Defence Council.

8 Q. All the information you had about any event in Mostar during that

9 time was entirely hearsay, correct?

10 A. During those 20 days when I was not in Mostar, I could not leave

11 my clone there. So during those 20 days, I received information from

12 other people, because I was not physically there.

13 Q. The reports, and they can be placed in front of you, if it would

14 help you sir and I leave it to you, the reports that were marked as D1/359

15 and D1/381, the reports that were about the time when you were talking

16 about the events around Jablanica and Sovici Doljani which Judge Clark

17 asked you about, if you recall, in looking at those reports on Wednesday,

18 or Tuesday, it was, excuse me, those reports themselves don't say anything

19 about what happened in Sovici-Doljani, what you saw, or any conclusions

20 that you reached, do they?

21 A. It is not correct. These reports clearly show that the Muslim

22 side achieved all of their goals and that we didn't. We did not get to

23 where we were supposed to go, where we had to do, and the Muslim side on

24 the other hand, did. I repeat once again: I'm here to testify as to what

25 I saw there.

Page 12434

1 Q. All right. Sir, I put it to you that the reports talk about the

2 process that you told about, no question about that, they talk about

3 meetings, leading up to a mission, if you want to call it that, to

4 Sovici-Doljani, which happened just finally on -- around the 4th of May,

5 the day before the report was written but neither of those reports, sir,

6 provide the Chamber with any information about the actual mission or

7 activities or assessment made in Sovici or Doljani, do they?

8 A. It is not correct. It is not correct that there is no information

9 about that, because as far as I remember, both reports emphasised that

10 there was a visit to Sovici and Doljani because amongst other things, one

11 report says that a convoy that was supposed to go in a different

12 direction, that it had to wait at the checkpoint for us to return from

13 Sovici and Doljani, those of us who had been there. So it says here that

14 the visit did take place and this is also to be found in the report. The

15 report says that the visit did take place and it also says in the report

16 that the representatives of the BH Army achieved their goal and their

17 goal, their objective, was to visit precisely these two places, and I was

18 personally a member of the delegation which visited these two places, on

19 top of that.

20 Q. Sir, the book that is called the "Angel of Mostar" which is

21 D1/383, is it your understanding that that book was written by this woman,

22 Sally Baker?

23 A. According to my information, according to information available to

24 all the readers, whether a book has been written by somebody or not, this

25 can only be concluded from the signature of the author. This book has

Page 12435

1 been signed by Sally Baker. I don't have any reason whatsoever to doubt

2 that. Whether she had help, I don't know, but the main thoughts in that

3 book are the thoughts of Mrs. Sally Baker, and I witnessed some of the

4 events that she describes in the book.

5 Q. Was it Mrs. Baker herself to gave herself the title, "The Angel of

6 Mostar"?

7 A. I don't know who has given the book this title, "The Angel of

8 Mostar."

9 Q. But however that title came about, whatever else the book may be

10 about, Sally Baker was helping the Muslims in East Mostar, and that's what

11 she became known for; is that correct?

12 A. That is not correct. It's just partly correct. She helped Croats

13 as well, Croats on the western side of Mostar, and also Croats in central

14 Bosnia, who were -- and Muslims on the eastern side of Mostar. So this is

15 correct.

16 Q. In terms of the people killed on the 9th of May, 1993, as I

17 understand it, sir, if you know, most of the attack, whoever started it,

18 and let me understand I'm not suggesting who started it at the moment, I

19 don't want to get bogged down in that, but much of the fighting was in the

20 early morning hours, correct?

21 A. Which people do you refer to as to people who were killed on the

22 9th of May?

23 Q. Any people, sir, on the 9th of May, 1993, killed in Mostar.

24 A. What about them is your question to me? That I haven't already

25 said.

Page 12436

1 Q. You didn't answer my question. My question to you, sir, was, is

2 it true that much of the fighting that broke out in Mostar on the 9th of

3 May, was in the early morning hours, had nothing to do with who was

4 killed, I simply asked you the time of the fighting.

5 A. When I talked about victims, these victims were falling all day

6 long so I was talking about the total number of victims throughout the

7 day.

8 Q. Please answer my question.

9 A. I apologise, I apologise.

10 Q. Did you not understand my question? My question is: Is it true

11 that much of the fighting took place in the early morning hours of the

12 9th of May, 1993?

13 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik?

14 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I've been

15 listening very carefully and I really don't know what has entered -- what

16 has been entered in the transcript. The Prosecutor asked whether these

17 victims fell during the early hours of the morning, and the witness

18 replied throughout the day. And then the Prosecutor says this is not what

19 I asked you.

20 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Scott, you may ask a simple question, when

21 do you believe -- when do you believe the fighting took place?

22 MR. SCOTT: With all respect, Your Honour, that's not my

23 question. My question is and it's very simple.

24 Q. Is it not true that much of the fighting in Mostar started in the

25 early morning hours of the 9th of May? It's a very simple question.

Page 12437

1 A. I'll give you a simple answer. I don't know when most of the

2 fighting took place, as you put it. I was talking about victims. I did

3 not say anything about the development of the war events, with the war

4 operations, in which I did not take place, I was not a soldier, neither am

5 I able to assess them or to be the judge of their development.

6 Q. So you don't know, you didn't see the unfortunately and we can all

7 agree that what happened was tragic on all sides, but you were not present

8 where the bodies fell, so when you talk about 100, approximately 100

9 persons being either killed or seriously wounded, by shots to the head,

10 you did not see these bodies in place; is that correct?

11 A. I gave the answer, and that was that I don't understand fighting

12 as fighting. I don't know when fightings take place or don't take place.

13 As far as the victims, the dead and the injured are concerned, I said that

14 on that day, there were a lot of casualties, a lot of injured. That with

15 my own two eyes I saw a number of ambulance vehicles which brought the

16 injured to the hospital. These people were treated. Some of them

17 survived the treatment, some of them died. Many people were killed on

18 that day. And this is all I said. And of course I saw patients in the

19 hospital.

20 Q. So you saw these people, that were seriously wounded or

21 unfortunately perhaps bodies, primarily or entirely at the hospital; is

22 that correct?

23 A. It was not bodies that were brought to the hospital but the

24 wounded. I'm talking about the wounded, those who were alive when they

25 were brought. So I could not see -- obviously I couldn't see them all.

Page 12438

1 Some of these people died of their wounds and some survived. So I'm

2 talking about these people, those that I saw.

3 Q. Defence counsel was very specific with you and you gave a very

4 specific answer that you estimated that approximately 100 people that day

5 were either killed or seriously wounded by shots directly to the head.

6 Now, is that your testimony or not?

7 A. I said that on that day, there were about 100 victims, either

8 injured or killed. If I said that every -- and each and every one of them

9 was shot straight into the head, then I was wrong. I expressed myself

10 wrongly. I said that according to what I saw and what I heard from the

11 people down there, a number of people were shot either in the head or in

12 the neck, and that after that, I issued a recommendation that all the

13 soldiers were to wear a helmet, and I myself started wearing a helmet from

14 that day on, and some of my colleagues laughed at me behind my back and

15 they said I got scared. But yes, I did, because I knew that I could get

16 shot even me personally.

17 Q. And these approximate 100 victims, can you tell us again, please

18 or clarify, were they mostly civilians or were they mostly soldiers?

19 A. I can't tell you at this moment who they were, but I know for sure

20 there were both civilians and soldiers. Unfortunately, I cannot answer

21 your question with precision.

22 Q. Well, sir, wouldn't it be -- and again unfortunately, would it be

23 the case, when fighting occurred when people were in their homes and

24 flats, and when people went to their windows to see what was going on,

25 trying to protect themselves but peek out over a window or behind a door,

Page 12439












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13 English transcripts.













Page 12440

1 that many of the wounds or injuries would be to the head? Isn't that

2 true?


4 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this question is a

5 matter of speculation. I think that it's clear that the witness saw these

6 bodies in the hospital and to reply to all these questions, it would be

7 necessary to speculate. Thank you.

8 JUDGE LIU: I agree with you, Mr. Krsnik. Mr. Scott, move on,

9 please.

10 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, I will move on but we will also object,

11 it's also further speculation of any conclusions that the Defence

12 would draw.

13 Q. How many times, sir, from approximately May of 1993, until

14 November, 1993, did you --

15 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours?

16 JUDGE LIU: Yes?

17 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I will no longer allow my colleague

18 to give testimony and to come to conclusions which then enter the

19 transcript when the witness quite clearly told me he didn't know what

20 people were -- what sort of weapons caused the shots to the head. He said

21 this quite clearly.

22 JUDGE LIU: Well, I did not see this question, at least, in the

23 transcript. Well, let us hear the whole question from the Prosecutor.

24 MR. SCOTT: Sorry, Mr. President, my question was moving on and I

25 won't belabour the last points further.

Page 12441

1 Q. My question was, starting in approximately June of 1993, sir, and

2 continuing until the end of 1993, can you give the Judges to your best

3 estimate of how many times you were actually physically present at the

4 Heliodrom?

5 A. I said that I visited the Heliodrom, at the time I assumed that I

6 had been there, so on that occasion, I personally went to the Heliodrom

7 only once, but my colleagues, doctors who were under me and whom I held

8 accountable, they were in constant contact with the Heliodrom, or they

9 were at the Heliodrom in person. A group of medical personnel was present

10 at the Heliodrom all the time. I also mentioned the detained doctor who

11 was --

12 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... try to move along so I'm

13 going to try to move along. Your answer is that during that time period

14 from June to December, 1993, you were at the Heliodrom yourself one time.

15 Now, let me ask you about the HVO prison camp at Ljubuski. How many times

16 were you physically at the prison camp at Ljubuski?

17 A. As far as the Ljubuski detention centre is concerned, well, I've

18 never heard about it, I've never heard about a detention centre in

19 Ljubuski. I was never there. But if it's correct to say that such a

20 centre did exist, then I am sure that the health care there was provided

21 by the doctors --

22 Q. [Previous translation continues]... how many times were at the

23 fast I will the at Gabela?

24 A. I'm sorry, I apologise.

25 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik?

Page 12442

1 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think it would be

2 fair to say the military prison centre in Ljubuski. The Prosecutor is

3 using his own term.

4 JUDGE LIU: Well, is there any difference about this term?

5 MR. SCOTT: I don't know of any difference, Your Honour, a place

6 in Ljubuski administered by the HVO where people were held against their

7 will. How about that for a definition?

8 JUDGE LIU: Well, whatever terms you use, so long as it could get

9 cross.


11 Q. Were you ever at a facility, sir, administered by the HVO in the

12 area of the city or town of Ljubuski where Muslim prisoners were held?

13 A. I've answered that question.

14 Q. Your answer is no.

15 A. I didn't say no, but I said that I -- that at this moment I really

16 don't know whether such a centre existed but if it did, I most certainly

17 was never there.

18 Q. Were you ever present physically personally present at an HVO

19 facility where Muslim prisoners were held in the vicinity of Gabela?

20 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Krsnik?

21 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honours. I would

22 like certain things to be clear in this transcript. I brought this

23 witness here for your sake, Your Honours, in order to provide you with an

24 entire picture of health care in Mostar. This is what we are all

25 interested. I could have asked four questions and concluded my

Page 12443

1 examination. When I said that there was a difference with regard to the

2 terms, that's true. But I said a military investigation prison. That is

3 the official name of that prison in Ljubuski. And it's a term used by the

4 Prosecutor with his witnesses. And thus he is confusing the witness

5 because when he says a detention centre, well maybe there was another

6 detention centre in Ljubuski. There was a military investigation prison

7 and people went there in accordance with the decisions of the military

8 investigating judge and I think that this is clear. Thank you.

9 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Scott, use the term used by the Defence

10 counsel. Try to come across this idea to the witness. Let's see what is

11 the result.

12 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. President.

13 Q. Sir, were you ever at any time between June and the end of

14 December of 1993 at the military investigative prison at Ljubuski?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Were you ever at any sort of HVO prison or detention facility in

17 the vicinity of Gabela during that same time period?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Were you ever present yourself at an HVO detention facility,

20 either called or at the vicinity of the Dretelj?

21 A. If your question -- if you want me to say that I wasn't there

22 because I didn't care, if that's what you're aiming at with your question,

23 then I will to provide more extensive answers to all these questions, I

24 apologise.

25 Q. [Previous translation continues]... that's not my question. If

Page 12444

1 you would please, I invite you with all respects, Mr. President, not to

2 speculate about what my question means or where it leads, just answer the

3 question, if you would, please, that I ask you. My question was not to

4 suggest whether you cared or not cared. The question is simple. From

5 June of 1993 to the end of December, 1993, were you ever physically

6 present at an HVO detention facility at Dretelj?

7 A. In Dretelj, as in all other detention centres, there was a

8 medical service which had been established, as I have said, and there were

9 people who were responsible for it at its head and they were under me. I

10 was never there personally, but they were there and they provided those

11 people with health care, and I was in regular contact with them, and there

12 were written reports which were also provided.

13 Q. Well, that brings me in fact directly to the question I was going

14 to ask you: In the HVO structure, who was your superior?

15 A. In what sense?

16 Q. Well, do you understand the concept of military command, sir?

17 A. I think I do but I don't understand this question.

18 Q. Who was your boss, sir? Who did you take direction from? Who did

19 you report to?

20 A. I have just asked you in what sense do you mean "boss"? In a

21 professional sense? Or does this refer to the structure of the Ministry

22 of Defence of which I was a part or what?

23 Q. Sir, you were the assistant Minister of Defence for health or

24 health services, who was your superior?

25 A. If we are talking about the structure of the Ministry of Defence,

Page 12445

1 my place within that ministry, as you said, I was the assistant of the

2 Minister of Defence. So that means that the Minister of Defence, within

3 those structures was my superior. But if we are talking in professional

4 terms, unfortunately, or fortunately perhaps, no one was above me. I did

5 not have a superior because I was the highest ranking commander for health

6 in the HVO, if we are talking about the organisation of the medical

7 profession.

8 Q. I am talking about the structure of the HVO Ministry of Defence,

9 sir. So your superior was the Minister of Defence, who during the time,

10 June of 1993, until the latter part of 1993, was Bruno Stojic, correct?

11 A. I don't think so. I don't think so. For sometime, Bruno Stojic

12 was my superior but Perica Jukic was also my superior for a certain

13 period of time.

14 Q. Sir in late, in very late, I agree with you, perhaps we -- can we

15 agree that from perhaps late November, 1993, until the end of the year,

16 Mr. Jukic was your superior? Prior to that, it was Bruno Stojic, correct?

17 A. Your Honours, I have really told you very clearly in my answer

18 what the case was. I have answered the question. I was absolutely

19 precise, as I promised to be, and I corrected the Prosecutor, and said

20 that, yes, for a certain period of time, but for another period of time, I

21 don't know for how long, my superior was Perica Jukic. I have already

22 answered that question. I do not understand why is it necessary once I

23 have provided an answer to ask me the question again? What is the

24 importance of this?

25 Q. What was your reporting mechanism, sir, to either Mr. Stojic or to

Page 12446

1 Mr. Jukic? Did you make a weekly -- a daily report, a weekly report? What

2 sort of regular reporting did you provide to the Minister of Defence?

3 A. We had meetings which were held every week. The reports that you

4 are referring to, I really don't remember how I submitted such reports,

5 but what I do know for a fact is that if we are talking about the

6 organisation of health care in wartime, and how this health care is

7 provided, I had a significant level of independence and no one --

8 Q. Please listen to my question. You had a superior who was the

9 Minister of Defence. What regular reports did you make to him? If any?

10 If you made no reports you can say you made no reports.

11 A. I have already told you. We had occasional meetings at which we

12 reported on the situation in the areas of various individuals for which

13 various individuals were responsible. I then spoke about the problems of

14 the -- of health care, of the health service and there were written

15 reports as I have already said, but I do not know how often we submitted

16 such reports, but they did exist.

17 Q. And who were your immediate subordinates, sir, the people who

18 reported directly to you as their superior?

19 A. If we talking about the profession, about medicine.

20 Q. I'm talking about the HVO Ministry of Defence sir and the people

21 in that structure who were your direct subordinates.

22 A. I understand your question now. The chiefs of the -- the heads of

23 departments and sections of the main medical headquarters were my

24 subordinates. That's the first thing. And then after the restructuring

25 took place, the chief of the health administration was my subordinate, and

Page 12447












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13 English transcripts.













Page 12448

1 heads of individual departments within that part.

2 Q. All right. Now a few minutes ago you were telling us -- I was

3 asking you questions about some of the HVO detention facilities. Was it

4 your position that there was at least one medical officer at each of those

5 facilities?

6 A. That's not what I said. And that doesn't mean either yes or no.

7 What I said was that in all those centres you ever been talking about, we

8 organised health care in all of those centres, and the doctors and other

9 medical personnel and people, they would enter, supervise, they would

10 provide health care for all those who needed it, that's what I said.

11 Q. And the reports that you would receive them, either informally or

12 formally, however the information that was communicated to you by these

13 individuals, you then reported to the Minister of Defence, correct?

14 A. A while ago, you asked me whom I was under in the ministry,

15 whom -- who was under me in the ministry. You didn't even ask me who was

16 under me in the field.

17 Q. I did, sir?

18 A. So I will first of all have to tell you.

19 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... you didn't answer me but if

20 you'd like to tell me now, I would welcome the information.

21 A. Well, I don't know what I should answer. I've already told you.

22 You didn't even ask me who my subordinates were in the field so how are

23 you going to know what you're asking me? And how should I know how to

24 answer that question, unless I don't tell you who was responsibility to

25 me.

Page 12449

1 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I apologise but I think

2 it is time for me to intervene. It is obvious that the Prosecution is

3 expressing his antagonism towards this witness and the witness can feel

4 that. I don't think it is necessary, the responsibility for the witness's

5 questions, well the Prosecutor is responsible for this, if he asks such

6 questions, he can expect such answers. Thank you very much.

7 JUDGE LIU: Well, I don't sense any antagonism at this moment.

8 Mr. Scott, you may ask that question to this witness.

9 MR. SCOTT: All right.

10 Q. Witness, I'm not going to take you back in the transcript to where

11 I asked you this before so I'll ask you again. Who was your direct

12 subordinates in the HVO Ministry of Defence, whether they were in Mostar,

13 whether they were in the field, who were those people who directly

14 reported to you as their superior?

15 A. Well, I said who they were with in the HVO structure in the

16 ministry. In the field, these people were the heads of war hospitals and

17 they were also the commanders of certain regions, military districts. But

18 they provided me with medical reports, reports which had to do with health

19 care. And these reports and all other reports, if they were necessary,

20 well, they were responsible to their commanders, the commanders of units

21 in the field, and in professional terms, for the implementation of health

22 care, they were responsible to the health administration, to the chief, to

23 the head, to the chief medical headquarters.

24 Q. Thank you, sir. And with that information that came to you, you

25 reported that information on to the Minister for Defence, correct?

Page 12450

1 A. The same thing again. Yes and no. When it had to do with

2 something which was part of my responsibility, I was responsible to

3 deal with it, then it wasn't necessary for me to contact the minister to

4 report to the Minister. I would deal with it. That's why I was his

5 assistant but for sort of overall acts, overall requests, general

6 requests, I didn't come to decisions on my own. I had to inform the

7 Minister of this. And ask for his agreement. Among other things, when --

8 if we are talking about that hospital or certain activities such as the

9 delivery of humanitarian aid through convoys, with which doctors were

10 sent, or doctors sent negotiation teams, et cetera, et cetera. Well

11 obviously the Minister had to be informed of this and there had to be an

12 agreement, he had to it agree to such matters. So that's the answer.

13 Q. I'd like if the usher could show you please Exhibit P578.11.

14 P578.11 and the same time you can please show him 578.12.

15 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, these are very, very short documents

16 that are only in B/C/S but there is only one sentence that need be

17 interpreted.

18 Q. Is it correct, sir, that as shown on both of these documents, one

19 is indicating it was signed by Valentin Coric, the head of the military

20 police of the HVO and the other one, 578.12 being signed by a man named

21 Ivan Anjic [phoen]. You were one of nine people in the entire HVO

22 military structure, you were one of only nine people who could give

23 freedom of movement throughout Herceg-Bosna; is that correct?

24 A. Throughout Herceg-Bosna? Anyone who was in Herceg-Bosna had the

25 right to move freely throughout Herceg-Bosna. I would first of all have

Page 12451

1 to read through these documents. And comment on them. But as I said,

2 anyone could move freely through Herceg-Bosna.

3 Q. Sir, I'm going to direct your attention and I'll ask the

4 interpreters to help us, please. I'm look at 578.11, after the

5 preparatory lines and then there is a title in the middle of the page

6 starting with the letter Z, the paragraph then that follows, and before

7 the list of nine names, sir, can you read that to us, please, very slowly

8 and clearly so that we can get the English interpretation? Would you

9 please read that? Can you read it out loud, please?

10 A. I apologise, Your Honours, but I would like to ask you why do I

11 have to read this out loud? Can I read it for myself, first of all?

12 Q. I'll ask the interpreters, Your Honour, if it will assist?

13 JUDGE LIU: Well, we don't have the English translations, so if

14 you would be kind enough to read it out loud so that we could understand

15 what it's about.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Okay. Very well. Very well. I

17 understand you. Thank you very much. Well, "At all border crossings and

18 throughout the territory which is under the control of the HVO military

19 police, ensure freedom of movement without hindrance for transports,

20 foreign journalists, employees of humanitarian organisations, and all

21 other citizens on whose permits for movement, for free movement, you can

22 find the following names." Shall I read through the names?


24 Q. No, that's not necessary, sir, the Judges can read the names,

25 including Bruno Stojic, Slobodan Praljak, Milivoj Petskovic and others.

Page 12452

1 And you, sir, being one of the nine, correct?

2 A. This is the first time I've seen this document and I wouldn't like

3 to comment on it, I wouldn't like to say anything about it. I never

4 received this document, but I would like to say the following: Probably

5 given my constant requests to make this possible, this thing possible,

6 that thing possible, to implement this thing and to do that thing, et

7 cetera, et cetera, well, if this document is correct, it's probably for

8 this reason that people said, okay whatever Ivan Bagaric says should be

9 done, should be implemented and whatever he signs we should try to make

10 it possible for this to be implemented. And therefore -- well at the time

11 I was the assistant of the head of the Defence department or later the

12 Minister of Defence so that's how I understand this, although I've never

13 seen this and I wasn't aware that such a document had been written. I

14 wasn't aware of its existence.

15 Q. Sir, I don't think you've told us yet either in direct examination

16 unless I missed it which is always possible, or in cross-examination, who

17 put you in this position or named you or appointed you? Who put you in

18 the position of assistant Minister of Defence for medical services?

19 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik?

20 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, just in order to

21 clarify something, the Prosecutor said Minister of Defence but what we

22 heard was the head of the Defence department. That's what entered the

23 transcript.

24 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, the transcript says exactly the -- put

25 the position of assistant Minister of Defence for medical services.

Page 12453

1 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We can see that from the transcript.

2 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] But this is the interpretation we got

3 through the earphones. I don't want the witness to be confused. The head

4 of the Defence department. That's what the interpretation said. That's

5 what we heard. Well that is the Defence department.

6 MR. SCOTT: I'll rephrase it Your Honour.

7 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] But Your Honours it's very important

8 because in the HZ HB, and the Prosecutor knows this as well as you do,

9 there were departments and in the HZ HB, there were ministries. I don't

10 think there is anything in dispute there.

11 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Scott, you will rephrase it.


13 Q. Who named you, sir to the position you held from approximately, as

14 you've told us, September of 1992, through at least the year 1993? Who

15 put you in that position?

16 A. I think I was appointed by what was the name of it? By the

17 executive branch of the government under the HVO control, so the highest

18 person in the executive branch, whether it was the Minister or somebody

19 else, I don't know, but that arose from my position in the parliament and

20 then the doctor so I could not be appointed as the head of the army or --

21 I really do not know who appointed me, but I was appointed. That's a

22 fact.

23 Q. Sir, I'm going to press you on this. This is an extremely senior

24 position. The most senior medical officer in the entire HVO military.

25 I'm going to suggest to you, sir, you surely must know who put you in that

Page 12454












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13 English transcripts.













Page 12455

1 position.

2 A. It was not one of the highest. It was the highest position in the

3 military structure of the health care of the HVO. So that was the leading

4 position. And also a position of an assistant minister. Whether I was

5 appointed by the Defence Minister or the body that was not the government

6 at the time but representatives of the executive branch of the government

7 in the area that was still under the control of the HVO, I don't know.

8 And I don't know how else to answer your question. Believe me.

9 Q. Sir, how many times did you meet with anyone on behalf of

10 Mr. Naletilic prior to giving your testimony in The Hague?

11 A. I apologise, I was not concentrating. Can you please repeat your

12 question?

13 Q. Surely. How many times, sir, before beginning your testimony on

14 Tuesday did you meet with anyone on behalf of Mr. Naletilic in connection

15 with your giving testimony here in The Hague?

16 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Krsnik, let us hear the answer from the

17 witness first.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I met with representatives of

19 Mr. Krsnik's office just one time. I met with them last summer, from

20 somebody with Mr. Krsnik's office. And they inquired about some general

21 circumstances surrounding my future testimony.


23 Q. Did you describe to them what you knew and what it was that you

24 could possibly testify about? Did you talk about a statement that you

25 might make or the information that you could provide to them?

Page 12456

1 A. No. I was asked whether I would be willing, if the -- either the

2 Tribunal, the Chamber, or somebody else decided that it was necessary for

3 me to come and give my testimony about what I know and what I did during

4 the war, as the head of the medical services, and I said I did, and I am

5 here and I offer my cooperation to this Tribunal at any time whenever my

6 cooperation is needed.

7 Q. So is it your position, then, sir, that prior to taking the

8 witness stand on Tuesday, you had never provided any information to anyone

9 on behalf of Mr. Naletilic about what your testimony would be?

10 A. Except for that one time when I mentioned, the answer is no.

11 Q. Well did anyone --

12 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik?

13 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I apologise if I am

14 wrong but I believe that once somebody says on behalf of Mr. Naletilic, my

15 learned friend should be correct and say with the Defence for

16 Mr. Naletilic, because I don't know what it means, on behalf of

17 Mr. Naletilic. It could have been his sister. So why didn't he say

18 exactly who he meant whether he said on behalf of Mr. Naletilic. This

19 serves just to confuse the witness. He could have said the Defence.

20 And another thing, Your Honours, something that -- but I didn't

21 want to intervene. When somebody says, "I have four documents," and the

22 following day you turn up with 20 documents so that maybe the Defence

23 would not do something overnight like the case was with another witness

24 whose name I cannot mention because he was protected, so one day, somebody

25 says four documents, the following day they turn up with 20 documents, and

Page 12457

1 that -- so much about the correct behaviour of my learned friend.

2 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Witness, are you going to tell us something?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I thank you, Your Honour. I believe

4 I understand Mr. Prosecutor now. I understand the question. As God is my

5 witness, I -- nobody on behalf of Mr. Naletilic or anybody else, that is

6 relatives, friends, have ever spoken to me about this, nor have I provided

7 anybody with any information, except for that one time when people from

8 Mr. Krsnik's office asked me and when I said that I am at their disposal

9 and the disposal of this Trial Chamber if they may decide that I can

10 explain some things.

11 JUDGE LIU: I thought that, not as long as you understand the

12 question, but now I realise that you did not understand the question.

13 Yes, Mr. Scott, I believe that we finished this part of the

14 question. Would you please move on.

15 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, if the Court would allow me one

16 follow-up question.

17 JUDGE LIU: Yes, please.

18 MR. SCOTT: Thank you.

19 Q. When you did meet on this one instance, you've now told us sir a

20 couple of times that this was only the one time, how long did this

21 conversation or meeting last? Was it five minutes or several hours or how

22 long?

23 A. I thank you sincerely if that is your last question, because this

24 gives me hope that I will be home for the weekend. I sincerely thank you,

25 and I invite you to come to Bosnia. I would like to show Bosnia to you.

Page 12458

1 And then maybe a lot more things would be clear to you, and I understand

2 why some things are not clear because you are not from Bosnia. So that

3 one time, I think it was ten minutes, ten minutes altogether.

4 Q. I'm sorry to disappoint you, sir, but I didn't suggest that that

5 was going to be my last question except in response to the President that

6 I would move off that topic with that question. I would like the usher,

7 please, to show you Exhibit P239.11. I have a feeling it's -- I'm sorry,

8 that's right. P239.11.

9 Sir, I'd like you to look at that for a moment, please, and

10 perhaps the English version could be placed on the ELMO. This appears to

11 be an order issued by Bruno Stojic, the Minister of Defence or to use the

12 exact words interpreted here head of the HZ HB Defence department, about

13 the reporting of casualty information. And you were listed or indicated

14 at least in the English translation, on the top part of the second page.

15 Do you see that?

16 A. Yes. I can see that and I'm -- I am aware of this document. I'm

17 not aware of this specific document but I know its source and origin and I

18 know why it was issued, and I can explain that to you, if you want me to.

19 Q. Well, that is in fact my next question, sir. Can you tell the

20 Judges, please, what the circumstances were leading Minister Stojic to

21 issue this order?

22 A. In the so-called chief medical headquarters, later on health

23 administration, we had a department that monitored the sufferings of both

24 civilians and soldiers so we had a data base containing the names of the

25 dead, of the wounded, so we could monitor their treatment, their medical

Page 12459

1 care provided to them, their whereabouts, whether they were discharged,

2 then the head of that department was Dr. Marija Brajko and at one

3 instance, she prepared various documents that we sent to the ground from

4 this area, and on one occasion, she asked to have an insight into the

5 matter because this was requested of her from the human rights centre. So

6 she wanted to be provided with the information on all those who perished

7 in that particular way.

8 Q. Sorry, on a few minutes that we have left this evening, let me

9 just ask you a couple of questions. At the beginning of the document, it

10 says this: "If there is a suspicion that a war crime has been committed,

11 or that someone was killed with cold steel, tortured or mutilated, whether

12 the victims are children, civilians or soldiers, a post-mortem must be

13 performed." Can you tell the Judges was that the procedure to your

14 knowledge that was widely followed or not?

15 A. Unfortunately, at this moment, I don't know to what extent was

16 this procedure followed, but I know that the objective was to collect

17 information on the victims, on the sufferings, and that the doctor that I

18 mentioned was in charge of that, she was affiliated with that particular

19 department for a while, and her goal was to write a book. I don't know

20 what the topic of the book would have been because she never published the

21 book.

22 Q. Sir, you were the superior of this woman, correct?

23 A. At her request, I could not issue an order to military units,

24 because I was not their commander. So I suggested that Mr. Stojic should

25 do that, and I don't see anything strange about this document. Yes, I was

Page 12460

1 her superior, the superior of Dr. Brncic as well as all the of those who

2 were affiliated with the health care system at the time.

3 Q. Sir at the bottom of this document, I'm sorry, at least on the

4 bottom of the first page of the English version, the English translation,

5 it says this: "All such cases must be reported to the information and

6 investigation unit of the health care sector of the Defence department."

7 So since you were, as you told us a number of times now, the most senior

8 officer in the entire HVO medical department, and since this woman who was

9 give then responsibility was your immediate, direct subordinate, tell the

10 Chamber, please, was this procedure followed or not? Was it information

11 about victims of war crimes kept and maintained or not?

12 A. It says here, all such cases must be reported to the information

13 and investigation unit of the health care sector of the Defence

14 department. So this was the unit which, at the very beginning, was set up

15 as a firm structure in charge of collecting information, compiling a

16 database, providing information. Whether this was followed through or

17 not, I don't know. It would be good if it had been but I believe it

18 wasn't because Dr. Brncic never wrote a book that she promised she would

19 do, based on all the information that she was collecting.

20 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, I see that it's 7.00.

21 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik.

22 JUDGE LIU: It's time.

23 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Very simple. Are these all the

24 documents that my learned friend is going to use or are we to expect a new

25 pile of documents to arrive at our desk on Monday? Because it was your

Page 12461

1 order that after the solemn oath is taken that the documents should be

2 given to us.

3 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Scott?

4 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, I'm sure it is the substantial majority

5 of the documents. Now, the Rule as I understand the Chamber has put into

6 practice is to facilitate and as an aid if in the course of the

7 cross-examination, an additional document comes to my attention yes, we

8 may have an additional document or two on Monday morning and I don't

9 understand any of the Chamber's Rulings to prohibit that. We are provide

10 the documents as an aid when the cross-examination starts. Not that those

11 will be the only documents.

12 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Witness, I'm sorry, we have to keep you here in

13 The Hague over the weekend. I have to remind you that during the period

14 you are in The Hague, you are still under the solemn declaration. So do

15 not talk to anybody about your testimony and do not let anybody talk to

16 you about it. Thank you very much.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I thank you, Your Honour. I am

18 really sorry that we did not find just a little bit more time and bring my

19 testimony to the end, because if the Mr. Prosecutor is going to be honest,

20 then he will admit that there are not so many questions that he can put to

21 me from which he can derive at this or that conclusion. And if you can

22 order him to continue his cross-examination, now, please do so. I would

23 kindly ask you.

24 JUDGE LIU: I don't think it's proper for you to judge the results

25 of the questions asked by the Prosecution. But any way, we will resume

Page 12462

1 Monday afternoon.

2 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

3 7.03 p.m., to be reconvened on Monday,

4 the 17th day of June, 2002, at 2.15 p.m.