Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 13372

1 Tuesday, 2 July 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 2.33 p.m.

6 JUDGE LIU: Call the case, please, Madam Registrar.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case number

8 IT-98-34-T, the Prosecutor versus Naletilic and Martinovic.

9 JUDGE LIU: Good afternoon, Witness.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

11 JUDGE LIU: Are you ready to start?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I am.

13 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

14 WITNESS: WITNESS NS [Resumed]

15 [Witness answered through interpreter]

16 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Prosecutor, your cross-examination, please.

17 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Thank you, Your Honour. First of all I would ask

18 that we should go into private session for some moments because of some

19 background problems are at issue now.

20 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we will go too the private session, please.

21 [Private session]

22 [redacted]

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21 [Open session]

22 MR. PORIOUVAEV:

23 Q. Witness, I would like you to take a look at this order, and

24 clarify one minor thing maybe. I see an order -- an order dated the 23rd

25 of December, 1993.

Page 13379

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. If you take -- I will direct you to the second page, and there is

3 some seal, and signature.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Is it your signature?

6 A. Yes, it is.

7 Q. Okay. So you were already commander of the 2nd Battalion. Can I

8 be suppose that you are mistaken in the date of your appointment?

9 A. That may have been a mistake because obviously this was at the end

10 of 1993. I always thought I became the commander at the beginning of

11 1994. I really thought it was the beginnings of 1994 but I do not dispute

12 this date and document.

13 Q. Okay. Thank you very much. You don't dispute the date either,

14 right? I said "the signature," I'm sorry.

15 A. I was the commander of the 2nd Brigade but I don't think it

16 matters whether I was appointed ten days earlier or ten days later.

17 Q. Witness, am I fair --

18 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I get up because I

19 wonder whether my learned friend has any other question concerning this

20 document. If not, I'd like to draw the attention of the Trial Chamber to

21 some other facts related to this document, provided the Prosecutor doesn't

22 have any more question on it.

23 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Krsnik, if your question is mainly

24 concerning the documents, would you please make it after -- in the -- at a

25 later stage?

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Page 13381

1 Yes, you may proceed, Mr. Prosecutor.

2 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Thank you very much.

3 Q. Witness, you just claimed before the Trial Chamber that sabotage

4 group had never been a part of any military unit subordinate to Mr. Mladen

5 Naletilic, right?

6 A. Yes, that's right.

7 Q. And you did not have in any of your official documents, in the

8 letterhead, the indication that you were a part of the Convicts Battalion,

9 right?

10 A. Yes, that's right.

11 MR. PORIOUVAEV: I would like the witness to be shown Exhibit 492,

12 and I would like to take with you again Exhibit 479. 429. And 479.

13 Q. Witness, I would like you to take a look at this document. But be

14 careful not to --

15 A. Yes, I can see it.

16 Q. Be careful not to pronounce your name, please. Do you agree that

17 this document was drawn under your signature?

18 A. I would say it was.

19 Q. Do you recognise this document?

20 JUDGE CLARK: Sorry for interrupting, which one are we looking at

21 429 or 479?

22 MR. PORIOUVAEV: 429.

23 JUDGE CLARK: Thank you.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you're referring to this

25 document, which says "Convicts Battalion, Ivan Stanic, Cico, Bijelo

Page 13382

1 Polje," Mr. Prosecutor, I see this written on this document but this is

2 ridiculous.

3 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the witness is looking

4 at the -- another document, not the one which the Prosecutor was asking

5 him about.

6 JUDGE LIU: Witness, now we are using the document P429 at this

7 moment.

8 MR. PORIOUVAEV:

9 Q. This is the list of soldiers who should receive

10 apartments.

11 A. Oh, this document? This document has no -- there is no basis for

12 this document, because I wasn't the chief of the municipality in Mostar to

13 allocate flats.

14 Q. I'm not claiming that you were entitled or -- of the housing in

15 the area. I'm asking you about the list of soldiers presented for the

16 apartments being granted to them. Is it your signature?

17 A. I can't see the signature here.

18 Q. Do you see any names which are familiar to you in this list?

19 A. I do. I see the names of my soldiers from the 1st Battalion.

20 Q. Are all of them -- take a look at the list, please, again. Were

21 all of them soldiers of your 1st Battalion?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Okay. Thank you. Let's pass on to another document, 479, the

24 first one that you were looking at.

25 A. Yes.

Page 13383

1 Q. Now, the same question about the signature. Is it your

2 signature?

3 A. Well, now, looking at it, I'd say it was my signature, but the

4 rest, this document, to my mind, is a fabrication. There is one

5 typewriter which typed out the heading, and another typewriter typed out

6 the names, and the rest, so that the document, as a document, is not

7 truthful and I think does not represent a valid document, and that my

8 signature is there, I would say that it was my signature. I don't know.

9 Perhaps somebody else could do it the way I do it. I disagree with the

10 heading of this document. It seems that all these men are mine. I did

11 not go through it. That is from the 1st Battalion. It says here,

12 Convicts Battalion, Ivan Stanic, Cico. There has never existed Ivan

13 Stanic battalion. There was the sabotage platoon in the 1st battalion

14 which was called the Ivan Stanic, Cico battalion. Which has 300 or 400,

15 we had 750 men and here there are only 56 of my men listed here so that

16 this document to my mind is ridiculous. And to me, it's not an authentic

17 document because we were never in the Convicts Battalion. Somebody

18 perhaps was toying with this. Perhaps somebody tried to show that the 1st

19 Battalion was a good battalion and therefore a Convicts Battalion, but if

20 you want to establish some relationship with the Convicts Battalion, which

21 was led by Mr. Naletilic, that -- that has nothing to do with it.

22 Q. Thank you, Witness. Now I will look through the lists of

23 soldiers. I mean two lists of soldiers. You see that Emir Brekalo,

24 Andjelko Zlatic and Ivica Kolobara were your soldiers, right?

25 A. Yes. They were my men during a certain period of time.

Page 13384

1 Q. Is it correct that on one occasion, they were given an assignment

2 to go to Mostar and to gather the remaining persons of Muslim nationality

3 who resided in Mostar at that time, but were domiciled in the area of

4 Bijelo Polje, Vrapcici and Rastani? The task was to gather such persons

5 so that at the later stage you could change them for Croats who were

6 detained by the Muslims? Am I right?

7 A. No. You are not right, because I was in Bijelo Polje on the left

8 bank throughout. We fought on the front line, controlling M-17 axis from

9 Sarajevo to Mostar, where brigades of the BH Army were stopped. Their

10 task was to gain access to the sea, and I do not think I had any time to

11 walk around Mostar. I didn't walk around. And the office for exchange is

12 something that I was in constant contact with, requesting that my captured

13 men be released, be pulled out from hell.

14 MR. PORIOUVAEV: I would like the witness to be shown Exhibit

15 509.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I don't even have to read

17 this. This is not a document that I know, nor did I have a part in this.

18 And these names here, the signatures, it has nothing to do with me.

19 MR. PORIOUVAEV:

20 Q. Witness, sometime ago, you stated before the Trial Chamber that on

21 some occasions, you were not within your sabotage platoon and some other

22 people were in command. Could you -- could we assume that those people

23 were involved in such actions without your knowledge, or at least without

24 your direct command?

25 A. No. They could not, because I've already said where we had been

Page 13385

1 and what we had been doing. We were on the left bank, and I said what

2 forces were attacking us day and night almost. Every single man,

3 especially from my unit, from my battalion, had to be there. We simply

4 had no respite. And other units came too, to help us. Let me describe

5 the conditions of survival on that side. There was a lake there, across

6 which we had to put barrels, and over them planks, in order to cross to

7 the left bank of the Neretva. There are three dams above Bijelo Polje.

8 They would open all three dams so that all these bridges would be swept

9 away.

10 Q. I think that I have to cut you off, because you actually explained

11 the situation. No need to dwell more on this issue and waste our time.

12 Witness, you claim today that you finished the primary school at

13 Bijelo Polje, right?

14 A. Yes, that is right.

15 Q. And I suppose that you knew people, most of the people of the area

16 of your age?

17 A. I met them in war, by and large, but I knew most people --

18 Q. I suggest --

19 A. -- there.

20 Q. I suggest that you should know the people whose full name was

21 Kolobara.

22 A. In Bijelo Polje, there are very many Kolobaras. I do not know

23 which one of them do you mean.

24 Q. Did you know a person whose nickname was Droba?

25 A. Yes.

Page 13386

1 Q. Could you tell his name?

2 A. I think that his name was Ivan Skobic. If I'm wrong, it could

3 be Ivan Kolobara. I knew him well by his nickname, but I know who that

4 is, if you're asking me about Droba. He was killed during the aggression

5 on Mostar.

6 Q. Did he have relatives, close relatives, brothers?

7 A. During the aggression, that night, when we were being killed

8 perfidiously, he and his brothers were killed.

9 Q. Did you have any other Kolobara in Bijelo Polje who was a member

10 of the Convicts Battalion?

11 A. I think that nobody from Bijelo Polje was a member of the Convicts

12 Battalion, but I do not know which Kolobara you have in mind. You have to

13 give me his full name.

14 Q. Do you know Miroslav Kolobara?

15 A. I do, two, and I believe there is a third one too, who is still a

16 boy and who did not participate in the war. Miro or Miroslav. I'd say

17 that is the same name, Miro or Miroslav Kolobara. I mean, Miro could be

18 short, it could be Miroslav.

19 MR. PORIOUVAEV: I would like the witness to be shown Exhibit 680.

20 Q. Witness, I would like you first to take a look, to take a look at

21 that part of this document. It's page 2 in B/C/S version, which commences

22 with, "Dana, 19th of November, 1993." This part of the document deals

23 with a certain Ivica Kolobara?

24 A. Miroslav Kolobara?

25 Q. No, Ivica Kolobara, if we are on the same page. In the English

Page 13387

1 version, it's also page 2 -- sorry, it's maybe together with all the

2 stuff, maybe page 3. Have you found Ivica Kolobara?

3 A. Just a moment. Oh, yes.

4 Q. Yes?

5 A. Where it says the 13th of November, 1993? Is that it, on the 13th

6 of November, 1993? You mean that passage?

7 Q. The 19th of November.

8 A. Where it says, "The criminal charges have been brought against

9 Ivica Kolobara? Is that the one.

10 Q. Yes and that he's a member of the 2nd Brigade of the sabotage

11 platoon. Is that the same Kolobara that you met before in two lists of

12 soldiers?

13 A. Possibly, but I am not sure if he was a member of the 2nd

14 Battalion of the 2nd Brigade, although Vrapcici was in the 2nd Battalion

15 where he comes from. Before that, he was with me. I can't remember if he

16 transferred to the 2nd Battalion of the 2nd Brigade because men from

17 Vrapcici who were with the 1st Battalion at first, after the war with the

18 Serbs, came under the 2nd Battalion of the 2nd Brigade.

19 Q. Now, Witness, let's turn to -- actually, it's on the same page, in

20 the B/C/S version, page 2, just the paragraph, second from the upper side

21 of the page, which starts with Miroslav Kolobara, and in English version,

22 this is page 2.

23 A. Yes, I can see that.

24 Q. Am I fair to say that these two people, persons, Ivica Kolobara,

25 and Miroslav Kolobara are close relatives, even brothers?

Page 13388

1 A. No.

2 Q. Why do you think so?

3 A. Because I know they were not brothers.

4 Q. They have the same father's name, mother's name?

5 A. No. Here it says mother, Milika, that is Miroslav Kolobara's

6 mother. And Ivica Kolobara's mother is Mira Peric, and the former one was

7 Milka Kukic.

8 Q. Could they be second cousins?

9 A. I said there were very many Kolobara's in Bijelo Polje but again I

10 do not think so. One used to live in Vrapcici and the other one, as far

11 as I could see in Kuti Livce.

12 Q. Okay. Let's pass on to another topic. Is it correct, Witness,

13 that your unit participated in military operation on the 24th of August,

14 1993, in Rastani?

15 A. Rastani fell several times into the hands of the BH Army and would

16 be recovered and placed again under our control. If that was the last

17 operation, and I believe you're referring to it, then yes.

18 Q. Witness, I refer to a certain operation which took place on the

19 24th of August, 1993, and I'm asking about this operation.

20 A. I could not keep up with dates, because I was involved every day

21 in major fighting. I'm saying if that was an action to liberate Rastani,

22 and I think it was September, if that is the date, then I did participate

23 in that operation.

24 Q. Witness, I will ask you very direct question, a very direct

25 question. Is it correct that your unit was involved in military

Page 13389

1 operation, together with the soldiers --

2 A. Together with?

3 Q. The soldiers subordinate to Mladen Naletilic, Tuta, and that

4 operation took place on the 24th of August, 1993?

5 A. I think you're wrong. There -- perhaps there is such an action

6 but the action that I took part in involved the 2nd Brigade and the

7 commander of Rastani was Mr. Stampar. We were the ones who liberated

8 Rastani and the Convicts Battalion did not take part in it.

9 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Thank you very much, Your Honours. We will pass

10 on to Stampar a little bit later.

11 Q. But now let's return to Rastani and the 24th of August.

12 MR. PORIOUVAEV: I would like the witness to be shown Exhibit

13 573.1. I would like the witness to just leaf down the document and pay

14 special attention to the second page of the document, which is called,

15 "Other occurrences." In English, this is the third page.

16 Q. Are you seeing the words, the sentence which begins with "the

17 Convicts Battalion took control over Mostar," and so on? And Zeljko

18 Bosnjak and Drazenko Sopta were killed in the fighting? That's maybe the

19 end of this short information.

20 A. I don't know. You are told me to read the whole passage, and I've

21 just read only one half of it, so will you please wait a little?

22 Q. Sorry, sorry.

23 A. Yes. You can ask me what you want to know.

24 Q. Do you know of any military operation in Rastani carried out by

25 Convicts Battalion when they took control of the village of Rastani?

Page 13390

1 A. No. You are talking about a date -- about the date where my

2 command in Bijelo Polje were attacked on the North Camp. At that moment,

3 I had no idea where was who, let alone the Convicts Battalion.

4 Q. Okay. Let's pass on to another document.

5 MR. PORIOUVAEV: I would like the witness to be shown Exhibit

6 573.

7 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours?

8 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

9 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, if the Prosecutor can help

10 me, I only have 573.1. I do not have the document 573. Is it in this

11 binder or perhaps I didn't get it. Oh, sorry, sorry, I've found it. I've

12 found it. Thank you.

13 MR. PORIOUVAEV:

14 Q. My next question will be, Witness, do you see this document 573?

15 I mean the first page? This is an order in the name of Colonel Miro

16 Andric and according to this order, second paragraph, first paragraph, the

17 line is secured, Orlac-Rastani-Mostar, and Tuta's professional unit must

18 be released.

19 Again, it is dated the 24th of August, 1993. The document was

20 sent to HVO 2nd Brigade.

21 A. Yes. Not to me. I know nothing about this.

22 Q. You don't know, okay.

23 A. I repeat that I didn't know where my head was, because all my

24 village had been killed an burnt down and I remained defending myself on

25 the Neretva bank. I cannot tell you anything about this.

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Page 13392

1 Q. Okay. Let's pass on to another document, P574. It's not a long

2 document. You may read it all from the very beginning to the end, paying

3 special attention to sector 4. In English, this is page 3.

4 Have you read it?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Do you see, Witness, that a group of 24 soldiers were involved in

7 the operation of liberating Rastani with Tuta's unit? Wasn't it your

8 group of soldiers?

9 A. I'm telling you again that my group of soldiers was attacked that

10 night. We defended ourselves, 250 of our men were captured it. What was

11 happening in Mostar, how they were fighting, the North Camp fell, I really

12 cannot tell you anything about it, but as far as I know, as far as I know,

13 and let me tell you, Tuta's unit, in the war against the Muslims, did not

14 exist. There was a unit --

15 Q. Witness --

16 A. In the war against the Serb or Chetnik aggression, as far as I

17 know. There was Tuta's Convicts Battalion. And this here, these

18 allegations here, I don't know who writes what.

19 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... my questions.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... to answer my questions.

22 MR. PORIOUVAEV: I would like the witness to be shown Exhibit 575

23 and 576. Your Honour, this will be the last -- not the last, the last but

24 one question in this series of questions devoted to Rastani. So let me

25 ask them, please, now.

Page 13393

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Tell me, what are you interested

2 in?

3 MR. PORIOUVAEV:

4 Q. Witness, there are two orders with identical content, issued for

5 Miljenko Lasic, commander of the operational zone; and the Chief of Staff,

6 Zarko Tole; to the same effect that the Convicts Battalion and Maka's men,

7 with troops from the 5th Battalion of the HVO 2nd Brigade should be

8 released and replaced by Ludvig Pavlovic unit. What can you explain

9 concerning these two orders? And mentioning Maka's -- Makovi Ljudi?

10 A. I don't know who Maka's men are. I have heard this term, Mak's or

11 Maka's men for the first time from you and I see it written for the first

12 time in my life. Nobody ever referred to me or to a unit with this name.

13 Q. Witness, you claimed that it was Milan Stampar who was in charge

14 of Rastani area, right?

15 A. Could you repeat the question?

16 Q. Witness, was it your testimony today that it is Milan Stampar who

17 was in charge of Rastani area in 1993?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Do you know when he was appointed to that position and whom he

20 replaced?

21 A. He was appointed to this position following the aggression, and

22 the capturing of Bijelo Polje by BH Army. I'm not sure whether he was --

23 replaced Mr. Ilija Vrljic.

24 MR. PORIOUVAEV: I would like the witness to be shown Exhibit

25 577.1.

Page 13394

1 Q. This is an order signed by Slobodan Praljak on the 25th of August,

2 1993?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Witness, do you agree with me that Milan Stampar was appointed

5 commander of Rastani area on the 25th of August, after the village of

6 Rastani had been secured on the 24th of August?

7 A. I do not know. I really couldn't tell you which was the date

8 exactly that Milan Stampar was appointed commander. I do know, however,

9 that this happened after this aggression, as I mentioned before, that he

10 was the commander of Rastani and the 2nd HVO Brigade, but I really

11 couldn't given you the exact date because I do not know it and I can't

12 invent it now.

13 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Your Honour, it seems to me that it is time for

14 the break, and I really I will need not too much time after the break,

15 maximum 15, 20 minutes.

16 JUDGE LIU: Well, as you know, we started late.

17 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Yes.

18 JUDGE LIU: If you need 20 minutes, what if we go on for the next

19 20 minutes? Then we will stop at 4.00.

20 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Okay. I will try.

21 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

22 MR. PORIOUVAEV:

23 Q. Witness, is it correct that somewhere in the autumn, 1993, on one

24 occasion, you visited Siroki Brijeg and interrogated one Muslim prisoner?

25 A. It is true that I visited Siroki Brijeg and I talked to a member

Page 13395

1 of the army, but I didn't interrogate him.

2 Q. Isn't it correct that the main issue you discussed with him was

3 one accident when the mine in the area of Rastani -- sorry, the dam was

4 under threat of being mined by some people?

5 A. We were not talking about this incident, but I can tell you a few

6 words about this event, should you be interested in it. We did talk about

7 people that had been caught -- killed in this accident. I mentioned these

8 individuals and I asked him whether he knew where they could be found,

9 about their whereabouts, but it was not an interrogation. It was a

10 conversation.

11 Q. Is it, Witness, also correct that that conversation took place in

12 the premises of the tobacco institute in Siroki Brijeg?

13 A. No. Talking to Berko Pusic, who asked -- who requested me to go

14 to the Siroki Brijeg military police station, I went to the military

15 police station and I had this conversation with the individual there.

16 Q. And on the same day, you did not visit the tobacco station,

17 right?

18 A. Right.

19 Q. You claim that you knew that person before, right?

20 A. Yes, that's right. He used to be my soldier in the war against

21 the Serbs. I think he was one of my men. One used to be one of my men

22 but the other one I didn't know very well. Perhaps he also used to be one

23 of my men.

24 Q. My next set of questions. So your headquarters were in Vojno

25 right?

Page 13396

1 A. Vojno? No, it was on the left bank of the Neretva where the

2 military operations went on. This is where the headquarters were.

3 Q. Witness, is it correct that there was a sort of detention facility

4 in Vojno which was not registered by the Red Cross?

5 A. No, that's not correct.

6 Q. You did not have any prisoners in Vojno, right?

7 A. I told you before that I stayed on the left bank and to my

8 knowledge, there were no prisoners on the right bank in Vojno because this

9 is a very small hamlet along the bank of the River Neretva.

10 Q. And you never took prisoners for the 1st Battalion of the 2nd

11 Brigade of the HVO?

12 A. On the left bank, where I was stationed, we had no prisoners

13 whatsoever, and as far as I'm familiar, there were no prisoners in Vojno

14 either, and that Vojno is on the right bank.

15 MR. PORIOUVAEV: I would like the witness to be shown Exhibit

16 567.1. The page -- it's not in this binder. There must be an additional

17 binder. Honourable Judges may turn to page with the last four digits

18 5140. 5140. If it is an issue, maybe this page could be placed on the

19 ELMO.

20 JUDGE LIU: Do you have it at your hands? I mean the extra copy.

21 Maybe you could use your document, Mr. Prosecutor.

22 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Yes, on the ELMO. There is no danger that

23 somebody's name will be disclosed now, revealed. Yes.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I don't know what you want

25 from me. I can see Vojno written at the top.

Page 13397

1 MR. PORIOUVAEV:

2 Q. Yes, but I don't say anything --

3 A. I see a few names. I don't know what you want to ask me.

4 Q. Yes, my question was: And there was a reply that no prisoners

5 were taken to Vojno, and this is the list of prisoners who were taken in

6 the number of 33 persons from Heliodrom to Vojno on the 2nd of September,

7 1993. What -- could you explain?

8 A. Yes. I can see the document. As I mentioned before, as far as I

9 know, there were no prisoners in Vojno. They couldn't, under those

10 circumstances, be kept there, and I don't know whether they were there or

11 not. I never saw prisoners there and I really can't tell you anything

12 about that. I was on the left bank. Since we were defending the front

13 line, it wasn't just the 1st Battalion but there were also other units

14 that were helping us. In Vojno, there was the ambulatory, there was

15 the mess and there were soldiers who would serve a shift there. I was on

16 the left bank, and if I was not on the left bank, nobody was allowed to

17 cross to the left bank. I can assure you that that was the situation.

18 And when I would cross to the right bank, I would do it over night, and I

19 had to come back very clearly so that nobody could notice that I had left

20 the left bank. Perhaps there were prisoners but not to my knowledge.

21 Q. We don't see the transcript, I'm sorry, oh, yes. Thank you very

22 much.

23 MR. PORIOUVAEV: And now I would like the witness to be shown

24 Exhibit 774. Item 60. 774. Yes.

25 Q. So this is item 60.

Page 13398

1 JUDGE CLARK: Sorry, it doesn't appear to be in our binders.

2 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Your Honour, it's a very old exhibit which was

3 admitted a long time ago, so it must be somewhere in our archive binders.

4 JUDGE CLARK: I see, but not with us, it's not in these binders.

5 MR. PORIOUVAEV: I have bad luck with binders.

6 JUDGE LIU: You may proceed, Mr. Poriouvaev.

7 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Thank you. Again we must put the document, the

8 original, on the ELMO. Or the English version. Makes no difference. This

9 is only one page. I think that the witness has the document.

10 THE REGISTRAR: The Judges didn't have it. That's why they

11 asked. But the witness does have the Registrar's copy.

12 MR. PORIOUVAEV:

13 Q. Please take a look at the list of people under item 60.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Do you see that seven people were killed on the 14th of September,

16 taken to the 1st Battalion, 2nd Brigade by Dragan Sunjic?

17 A. That's not possible. I would probably have known about it.

18 Q. Okay. In your opinion, it's not possible. But do you --

19 A. I'm sure that I would have been familiar with that. Therefore, I

20 don't believe that this is possible.

21 Q. Do you have Dragan Sunjic within your unit?

22 A. Dragan Sunjic was a member of my unit. Well, in fact, there were

23 more persons by the name of Dragan Sunjic. I think that they were all

24 members of my unit. At a later stage, I think that Dragan Sunjic joined

25 the military police in the period mentioned here, maybe he had already

Page 13399

1 been a member of the military police or maybe he was a member of my

2 battalion, but I don't recall ever having seen him on the left bank.

3 Q. Do you remember a man whose name was Mario Mihalj?

4 A. Mario Mihalj, no.

5 Q. Mihalj?

6 A. No, Mihalj no. There is no such name, no such person in Bijelo

7 Polje.

8 Q. Maybe my pronunciation is a little bit wrong. Mihalj?

9 A. Mihalj, but perhaps, yes, perhaps you're referring to it a person

10 by the name of Mihalj. There are persons by the name of Mihalj there.

11 Q. I mean Mario Mihalj.

12 A. There was a Mario Mihalj, who at the beginning of the war, when

13 the Serbs attacked us, was 17 years old and I wouldn't give him a rifle

14 and let him to participate in the fighting. Later on, however, I think

15 that he joined the battalion. I also think that later, he was a member of

16 a military police and then joined the 2nd Professional Brigade, and he was

17 killed on the front line. If this is the Mario Mihalj that you're

18 referring to, that is.

19 Q. Was he ever a member of your sabotage group?

20 A. No.

21 Q. And Dragan Sunjic?

22 A. Perhaps he did participate in some combat activities as a

23 volunteer.

24 MR. PORIOUVAEV: I would like the witness to be shown Exhibit

25 704. These are digits -- it's an old exhibit, page 27 in the English

Page 13400

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Page 13401

1 version, and digits 5383, 5384 in the B/C/S version.

2 JUDGE LIU: We don't have this document in this binder,

3 although -- although on the list, we saw this document, but we could not

4 find it.

5 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Your Honour, we use it every now and then, I

6 think. I suppose that it must be somewhere in the Trial Chamber. But we

7 can put it on the ELMO. Yes, first, I think the version in B/C/S, and

8 then maybe in English.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What would you like to know?

10 MR. PORIOUVAEV:

11 Q. Do you see any names that sound familiar to you in this list?

12 A. Yes. I know all these names. I haven't gone through the entire

13 list but I think I know them all.

14 Q. Do you see under number 46, 47, 48?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Dragan Sunjic under 46, Mario Mihalj under 47 and Gordan Skobic

17 under 48?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Can you confirm that they were your soldiers, according to this

20 document?

21 A. Not according to this document, because I don't know what the

22 document's origin is, but these individuals were my soldiers.

23 Q. Okay. The individuals or your soldiers were indicated in that

24 document? That is for the transcript, right?

25 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, Your Honour, I have to

Page 13402

1 draw your attention to a fact now, and later, of course in my redirect,

2 I'll do it again. Your Honours, check the B/C/S original of this

3 document, and the translation. I have both versions in front of me. In

4 the Croatian version, original or copy or whatever it is, has 5383 as the

5 last. Then we have 5382, and then the list of the next unit. And then we

6 have 5384. We don't even know what unit this list refers to, because the

7 list on the page 5382 is a complete list and the list on 5384 is a new

8 list, where nobody can recognise what unit these individuals belong to.

9 And then you have a new unit starting with 5385 and then 5386. In other

10 words, -- well, the next page.

11 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Your Honour --

12 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] May I complete, sir? This is your

13 document. On the next page, 5382, we have the next unit, which is

14 logical. And in the Croatian original, the last name on that page is

15 under item 33. I really do not know where you got this document with

16 6820, 6820 where you have 45 and 46, 47 and 48, which is on the ELMO. I

17 don't have it here. I also don't have a page 6820, 6820 is something

18 quite different in my version. Now, these are the originals. It's very

19 easy to compare them. I don't see the problem.

20 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Krsnik, I think we are in a worse position

21 than you because we don't have that document at our hands. We could not

22 judge whatever you said, but the witness has already answered that

23 question. He said "not according to this document, because I don't know

24 what the document's origin is but these individuals were my soldiers." So

25 this issue is closed. You have the full right to raise any objections

Page 13403

1 concerning the authenticity and origin of this document but not now.

2 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] By all means, Your Honours. I have

3 come across a large number of documents similar to this, and to put it

4 very mildly, this is very unusual indeed.

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 We were only defending the front line. As far as I know, I had no contact

16 whatsoever with the prisoners. This is how I can answer this question.

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

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24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 13404

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5 [redacted]

6 not remember this. I do not remember any prisoners at the Heliodrom, and

7 especially Ljubuski. I've never heard of it, let alone signed something.

8 Q. Do you see your signature on both orders?

9 A. I do, yes, yes. From the Heliodrom, these detainees were

10 exchanged while I was still waging war with the BH Army in Bijelo Polje.

11 They were released and then all these detainees then attacked us. Now,

12 could be, of all that war, I do not remember. I really do not remember

13 that I dealt with -- that I handled some prisoners.

14 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Your Honour, I have overstepped your limits.

15 That's why I have concluded my cross-examination at this point. Thank you

16 very much for your patience.

17 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. We will have a break. We will resume at

18 20 minutes to 5.00.

19 --- Recess taken at 4.10 p.m.

20 --- On resuming at 4.43 p.m.

21 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik.

22 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I shall be

23 very brief.

24 Re-examined by Mr. Krsnik:

25 Q. [Interpretation] Only a few questions, Witness. Please be so kind

Page 13405

1 as to tell this Honourable Court, to explain it, to explain how the 2nd

2 Brigade of the HVO in Mostar was organised and how many brigades were

3 there in Mostar? I mean in 1993.

4 A. The organisation of the HVO 2nd Brigade, the brigade was made of

5 four battalions, the 1st Battalion, the 2nd Battalion, the 3rd Battalion

6 and the 5th Battalion. In Mostar, there was yet another brigade, and that

7 is the 3rd Brigade, whose composition I do not know.

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 A. Yes, it is.

14 Q. Who is the commander of the 2nd Brigade and who is his commander?

15 A. Until the 30th of June, that is until the attack of the BH Army,

16 of the Muslim aggressor, the commander was Mr. Ilija Vrljic. After that,

17 the commander was Milan Stampar. And the 2nd Brigade was commanded by the

18 operative staff Mostar, with Brigadier Miljenko Lasic.

19 Q. I will not waste time showing you documents. Tell me just one

20 thing. This last document, 704, which was shown you by the Prosecutor, he

21 did not tell you, that is they allege that these are salaries for members

22 of the Convicts Battalion. My question is: Did you ever receive your

23 salary, the 12st Battalion or the 2nd Brigade through the Convicts

24 Battalion? And would that be possible at all?

25 A. No. That would not be possible. No, I do not think that it is

Page 13406

1 possible. Why would it go through the Convicts Battalion if we were

2 receiving our salaries through the 2nd Brigade? That is through the HVO.

3 Through the Ministry of Defence.

4 Q. I see. Very well. The only document, sir, and I will ask for it,

5 I believe it is here. Will you please just have a look at document 573

6 and 573.-- 573. Yes, there were two but now I see only one, in the

7 Croatian original, no, no, no, both are here, and 573. Will you please be

8 so kind, where it says, "North sector commander," do you see any signature

9 or a stamp?

10 A. No, I do not.

11 Q. And on the other document?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Thank you. And now, can I ask our honourable and esteemed Madam

14 Registrar, 731.01?

15 Will you please be so kind, on the first page of this document,

16 but have a good look, do you see anything below, "I order"? Do you see

17 anything underneath? Just look -- have a good look. Do you see that it

18 says, [redacted]?

19 A. Yes, yes, I do.

20 Q. Will the Honourable Court please look at the Croatian original?

21 You will see, Your Honours, underneath, "I order" [redacted]

22 [redacted] and one can see the outline of the stamp in the

23 Croatian original.

24 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Krsnik, I believe that we are in open

25 session.

Page 13407

1 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Your Honour, excuse me, I would like to clarify

2 the number of the document. Maybe there is some mistake in the

3 transcript.

4 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

5 MR. PORIOUVAEV: 731.01?

6 MR. KRSNIK: Yes, no, no, no. Yes, 731.01, 01.

7 JUDGE CLARK: Are you referring, Mr. Krsnik, to what appears to be

8 a shadow of another document on top of the photocopy? Is that what you're

9 referring to?

10 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, I didn't get the

11 interpretation.

12 Not only that, Your Honour, not only that. That is not the only

13 thing I'm trying to say. I want to say that it is quite obviously

14 possible to copy on one and the same sheet of paper anything.

15 JUDGE CLARK: I think that the witness should first be asked, and

16 I think he has been asked, if he recognises his signature. You are now

17 trying to put a proposition to him or a supposition. Do you think that's

18 allowed?

19 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. I asked the witness

20 in advance, "Could he see if there was anything written underneath, "I

21 order" and the witness answered so I can ask him once again.

22 Q. Witness, would you please be so kind and tell us what you see

23 written underneath, "I order."

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 13408

1 Q. I'm sorry, can we have a redaction, here, please? Your Honour,

2 please, believe me I'm really much too tired. I've made a very serious

3 mistake now. Witness, do not -- please could we go into private session,

4 please and have this redacted?

5 JUDGE LIU: Well, we will go into private session.

6 [Private session]

7 [redacted]

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24 JUDGE LIU: We will go back to open session, please

25 [Open session]

Page 13414

1 JUDGE LIU: When the usher pulls down the blinds, he will show you

2 out of the courtroom. We all wish you a pleasant journey back home.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

4 [The witness withdrew]

5 JUDGE LIU: At this stage, are there any documents to tender? I

6 guess not on the side of the Defence counsel.

7 MR. MEEK: None for the defence, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. Mr. Prosecutor?

9 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Your Honour, yes, with your leave I will prepare

10 a submission.

11 JUDGE LIU: I'm sorry, I think there is some problem with the

12 microphone. I could not hear you.

13 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Your Honour, with your leave, I will prepare a

14 submission on the exhibits I intend to tender, just in a couple of days.

15 All right?

16 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Thank you very much. Because all those

17 documents are very confusing to us. Some are in the binders. Some are

18 not.

19 Well, Mr. Krsnik, are you ready for your next witness? The same

20 protective measures?

21 MR. KRSNIK: Yes, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. So we'll have the next witness.

23 [The witness entered court]

24 JUDGE LIU: Good afternoon, Witness. Can you hear me?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Good afternoon, yes.

Page 13415

1 JUDGE LIU: Would you please make the solemn declaration in

2 accordance with the paper the usher is showing to you?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

4 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

5 WITNESS: WITNESS NT

6 [Witness answered through interpreter]

7 JUDGE LIU: You may sit down, please.

8 Could I test the microphone? Because I could not hear my own

9 voice through the earphone.

10 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I'll do the testing, testing.

11 JUDGE LIU: No, I don't get the translation.

12 Well, you may proceed, Mr. Krsnik.

13 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

14 Examined by Mr. Krsnik:

15 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Witness. Could the blinds and

16 the ELMO be put down, please?

17 Once again, good afternoon, Witness.

18 A. Good afternoon.

19 Q. Can you hear me?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. You can turn on the second microphone and you don't have to it

22 approach the microphone closer because this could be bothersome for you.

23 You will now get a piece of paper witness, with your name. Please do not

24 pronounce it aloud, if this is your name, please just say yes?

25 A. Yes.

Page 13416

1 Q. So you are Witness NT, and this -- these are the initials that

2 everybody will be addressing you under in this courtroom. We are trying

3 to protect your dignity and whenever we need to do this, we will ask for a

4 private session so -- but please be careful, do not pronounce your name

5 aloud.

6 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] To start with, Your Honours, I

7 apologise, but to be on the safe side, I would ask you to go to private

8 session.

9 Q. Witness, this means that whatever you're saying now will be heard

10 only by persons here in the courtroom and no one else?

11 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we will go to the private session, please.

12 [Private session]

13 [redacted]

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Page 13421

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4 [Open session]

5 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

6 A. So a day or two later -- attacked us they were strengthened by the

7 people of Hrasnica who were led by General Fikret Pravljak. And we had

8 four soldiers killed. Our soldiers, our friends. One of them was Juka's

9 deputy Samir Kahvedzic, aka Krusko.

10 Q. What happened afterwards?

11 A. Afterwards, we withdrew towards Herzegovina. We went through the

12 mountains and we walked for two days, to get to Klis, a village near

13 Konjic. The women, the children, were mistreated on Mount Igman. My

14 girlfriend, who was then pregnant, suffered a great deal as well.

15 Q. Your wife is of what ethnic origin?

16 A. She is a Muslim.

17 Q. Very well. Now you have arrived in Konjic. I know that it's

18 difficult to recall all the dates and months but when approximately, which

19 month and year, you arrived in Konjic?

20 A. We left Igman towards the end of January, 1993. And we arrived at

21 Klis. We were there received by the people. We stayed there for a few

22 days. Mr. Prazina, Juka, the general; he left for Mostar. I was waiting

23 in Klis because gradually people were escaping from the Silos Camp, the BH

24 Army detained our members, put them in detention, and some of them were

25 able to escape and arrived in Klis because I was also in Klis. Some four

Page 13422

1 or five days later, Juka came back to Klis and he told us that we should

2 leave for Mostar, where he was able to find accommodation for us in the

3 barracks on the Heliodrom.

4 Q. Did you get to Mostar? Were you accommodated at the Heliodrom?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. How were you organised? Did you join the HVO? Or what was the

7 situation? Were you treated as refugees or what?

8 A. No. We were not refugees. We were accommodated in the barracks

9 on the Heliodrom. There were about 120 of us there. Of these, there were

10 some women, children, some 35 to 40 of them were men. We arrived there in

11 the afternoon hours.

12 Q. My question was whether you joined the HVO units at that time or

13 did you continue to be members of BH Army?

14 A. Having arrived in the afternoon hours, next morning, Juka stood in

15 front of us and told us that we were members of the Croatian Defence

16 Council and that we were under the Main Staff of the HVO.

17 Q. I have a document here. I'll ask the Registrar -- this is

18 Prosecution Exhibit P249. Could you please help me with it? [In English]

19 P249, sorry, excuse me, Madam Registrar. [Interpretation] I apologise,

20 Madam Registrar, for this situation. Thank you very much. [In English]

21 You can put the English version in the ELMO, please. I have the English.

22 You have also the English version? Yeah, okay.

23 Q. [Interpretation] Are you familiar with this document, Witness?

24 A. Yes.

25 MR. KRSNIK: Mr. Usher, can you put so that the Judges can see?

Page 13423

1 [Interpretation] Can you push it further upward, please so that we can see

2 the text?

3 Q. Witness, could you show the signature, please, on the ELMO? Could

4 you push this document a bit further, to the top? [In English] Like this,

5 okay, okay, okay. [Interpretation] Witness, we are not going to read

6 through this document because it's self-explanatory. Can you only tell

7 us: Is this signature and this stamp on the basis of your knowledge so

8 far --

9 A. Yes.

10 MR. KRSNIK: Thank you.

11 Q. [Interpretation] I'm continue with my questions. I've noticed

12 that you have now set up a company. Could you tell us who was the

13 commander of your company and who was your direct superior?

14 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Can we go into private session,

15 please, just in case.

16 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we will go to the private session, please.

17 [Private session]

18 [redacted]

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16 [Open session]

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the 9th and 10th of May, 1993, I

18 was at the Heliodrom in Mostar. In the barracks at the Heliodrom.

19 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

20 Q. And do you know anything, do you know if anything -- about

21 anything that came to pass? Was all your unit at the Heliodrom or only

22 you?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Would you tell us what you know about these two dates and your

25 unit?

Page 13425

1 A. I remember two moments on that date, Your Honours. May I

2 explain? In April, in late April, I manned the line beneath Velez, near

3 Mostar, and when we withdrew from the front line, I was in the town of

4 Mostar. I was wounded there with another seven of my soldiers. Of those

5 seven, one was killed on the spot. We were wounded by the Army of Bosnia

6 and Herzegovina, because they said later that Juka was in the vehicle and

7 they opened fire. On the 9th of May, before that, I was in the hospital,

8 and I was sent home for house care. On the 9th of May, in the morning

9 hours, around 9.00, Juka told me that the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina had

10 attacked and that he had to go to Mostar to be on the reserve for the

11 Ludvig Pavlovic unit. He was there for about two or three hours in

12 Mostar, I mean. He returned. Before that, I stayed back with a squad to

13 guard the Heliodrom barracks because there were very many children and

14 women, and we had gone through that terrible experience on Igman and I

15 stayed there to protect them because there was this attack on Heliodrom.

16 Q. You're all telling us about the 9th?

17 A. Yes, about the 9th.

18 Q. And what about the 10th? Did anything special happen on the 10th?

19 A. On the 10th, sometime between 12.00 and 1.00, commander Juka

20 called me by radio and told me -- and said to me that there were very many

21 of our people wounded and that I should go to the hospital to look after

22 them, to see what had happened to them. I went to the hospital. We had

23 two men severely wounded. Of them, one was Samir, a Muslim. Another one

24 was Davor, a Serb. One was hit in the head. And the other one in the

25 chest. We had four lightly wounded soldiers, and about 3.00 or 4.00, when

Page 13426

1 I returned to the Heliodrom, Juka asked me, "What about them?" And I told

2 him what I had seen. And he was angry, started shouting at me, and said

3 that he had liberated Vranica and that my friend Alica --

4 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Could we go into private session,

5 please?

6 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we will go to the private session.

7 [Private session]

8 [redacted]

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24 [Open session]

25 MR. KRSNIK: Thank you, Your Honours.

Page 13427

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Page 13428

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In mid-or end of June, Juka Prazina

2 left. He said he was going to the seaside. We waited for him at the

3 Heliodrome. Many people left. Some went to Croatia, to their families.

4 Some went abroad. And about ten days later, I was called to the operative

5 zone in Mostar because I belonged -- where I belonged, and I was told that

6 I had to leave the facility of the Heliodrom barracks because we were too

7 few. After that, we left. We went to a flat in Mostar, and we were there

8 together. We were 12. [redacted]

9 [redacted].

10 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Don't give us the names, we are in open session. I asked you

12 whenever you give a name that could identify you. Now we have to go into

13 private session. I know it's my fault because I am a professional and you

14 are not. Could we have this name redacted, please, and now go on?

15 A. And I lived with my wife in that flat, and every day, I was with

16 other men. We were about 12. In another flat, where we were stationed.

17 Q. Now, the 12 of you, did you have any tasks? Did you perform any

18 tasks? How long were you in that flat, that is you, your group, your

19 ten-strong unit?

20 A. Yes. We were still under the Main Staff, operative zone Mostar,

21 and we were still the ATG Krusko, sabotage company.

22 Q. Weren't you too few for a company? That is if I got your meaning

23 right.

24 A. Yes. We were too few for a company but the 12 of us who were

25 there, Juka's, that is where I became a commander later on, we were later

Page 13429

1 on joined by a few more people from Mostar. They came to the unit.

2 Q. Very well. And how long did you have that platoon or company or

3 whatever?

4 A. In today's system, it was a squad, but we called ourselves a

5 company, and we were in front of the operative zone in Mostar, in front of

6 the Main Staff.

7 Q. How long, I asked you.

8 A. Until the end of 1993, when we moved over to the 2nd Guards

9 Brigade.

10 Q. My last three questions: Do you know Mr. Mladen Naletilic?

11 A. I do.

12 Q. When did you meet him and for how long did you know him?

13 A. I met him in March, 1993.

14 Q. I see. My next question is: Was he ever your commander, that is

15 the commander of your unit?

16 A. No.

17 Q. And did you ever tell anyone that he was your commander?

18 A. No.

19 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I have no

20 further questions.

21 JUDGE LIU: Well, we will break here. We will resume at ten

22 minutes past 6.00.

23 --- Recess taken at 5.43 p.m.

24 --- On resuming at 6.11 p.m.

25 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Bos, cross-examination?

Page 13430

1 MR. BOS: Thank you, Your Honours. Your Honours, I distributed

2 some exhibits which I intend to use for this witness. The Defence has

3 already received copies and I think you will receive them any minute now.

4 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. I'm very happy this binder is in there.

5 MR. BOS: So am I, Your Honour.

6 Cross-examined by Mr. Bos:

7 Q. Good afternoon, Witness NT, my name is Roland Bos from the

8 Prosecution and I will ask you some questions. Witness, have you ever

9 heard of the name Convicts Battalion?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. What do you know about the Convicts Battalion?

12 A. Well, I heard something but I can't say anything. I don't know

13 anything.

14 Q. Well, what did you hear? When did you hear about -- you said that

15 you heard about it. You must have known a bit more than just say that

16 you've heard about it.

17 A. When I arrived in Mostar, I heard about the Convicts Battalion.

18 Q. Do you know where the Convicts Battalion was stationed?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Do you know who the commander of the Convicts Battalion was?

21 A. I didn't know it in the beginning. I said I didn't know, because

22 we were new in Mostar. We didn't know anyone. Later on, I heard that

23 Mario Hrkac, Cikota, was the commander of the Convicts Battalion.

24 THE INTERPRETER: Will the witness please not come as close to the

25 microphone?

Page 13431

1 MR. BOS: Don't get so close to the microphone, if you keep a

2 distance of about half a metre, that's fine.

3 Witness, isn't it true that you've said that your unit was called

4 the ATG Krusko, correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Isn't it true that this unit was also referred to as the KB Krusko

7 or the Convicts Battalion Krusko?

8 A. No.

9 Q. You never heard of that abbreviation for your unit?

10 A. Never heard. When Juka was there, when I stayed behind and took

11 over, it was never the Convicts Battalion Krusko.

12 Q. As you testified, that you met Tuta in March, 1993; is that

13 correct? Was that the first time that you met Mr. Mladen Naletilic?

14 A. That's right.

15 Q. Would you tell the Court where this was and what was -- what was

16 the occasion? Could you give a bit more detail about this meeting?

17 A. Yes. In Mostar, it was in Mostar in a restaurant, at Edo

18 Bajram's. [redacted].

19 Q. Please refrain from mentioning a name unless I specifically ask

20 you because you're a protected witness.

21 A. My girlfriend was friends with Mr. Naletilic's friend -- girl --

22 lady friend. In a restaurant, we met and came to know one another. He

23 asked me, "Who is this?" And I said it was my girlfriend and that she was

24 expecting. He asked me, "Why don't you get married?" And I said that I

25 will marry straight away because it will be -- it would be a honour for me

Page 13432

1 if Mr. Naletilic agreed to be my best man.

2 Q. Why are you saying this? This is the first time you said you met

3 Mr. Tuta and you're straight away saying it would be a honour if he would

4 be your best man. Could you explain that?

5 A. Yes, I can. In Mostar, when I personally went out into town, I

6 heard a great deal about him, that he was a legend against Serbs, at the

7 time when the Serbs had their aggression against Bosnia-Herzegovina, and

8 it was a honour for me, and is still a honour for me, to have him as my

9 kum, as my best man.

10 Q. So Mr. Naletilic was in fact your best man when you got married to

11 your girlfriend? Is that your testimony?

12 A. Yes, and his lady friend was also my kuma.

13 Q. When did you get married? May I ask that?

14 A. In 1993, April.

15 Q. And did you get married in Mostar?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Now, let's go back to the beginning of the establishment of the

18 ATG Krusko. You said -- you've testified about Mr. Juka. What is the

19 relationship between Mr. Juka and Mr. Tuta? Do you know whether they knew

20 each other and how well they knew each other?

21 A. I do not know that, because I spent most of my time with Juka, and

22 I am not aware that they were close.

23 Q. Did you ever see Mr. Juka and Tuta together?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Witness, is it not true that when you arrived at the Heliodrom it

Page 13433

1 was actually because of Tuta that you were being accommodated at the

2 Heliodrom?

3 A. No. That is not true.

4 Q. Witness, is it not true that you may have been officially assigned

5 under the command of the operational zone but in fact it was your unit

6 acted under the direct command of Mr. Tuta?

7 A. Mr. Prosecutor, before this Honourable Court, and my oath, I speak

8 the truth. We were never the Convicts Battalion or under the command of

9 Mr. Naletilic. We belonged to the -- to the Mostar operative zone, that

10 is the Main Staff.

11 Q. Very well. Witness, do you recall in October, 1993, so this is

12 after Juka had left the ATG Krusko, do you remember that you were -- you

13 and some other soldiers from Krusko were assigned to an operation under --

14 under the command of Mr. Stampar, who was the commander of the 2nd

15 Brigade, and who had his area of responsibility in Rastani? This is

16 October, 1993.

17 A. When Juka left in October, you are mentioning October, we were a

18 sabotage -- you can call it a squad, a platoon, a company, that is what we

19 were called, for the operative zone in Mostar. That is Mr. Vrljic, who

20 commanded the brigade before him, and then Mr. Stampar, they could alert

21 us and issue me orders at any time.

22 MR. BOS: Could the witness be shown Exhibit P623.1?

23 Q. Please read the document for yourself and then I will ask you some

24 questions about it. Have you read the document?

25 A. Yes, I have.

Page 13434

1 Q. Now, Witness, this appears to be a document signed by Mr. Tuta,

2 dated the 5th of October, 1993, and addressed to Mr. Stampar. And he says

3 that he lends you 15 -- that Mr. Stampar is being given 15 men [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 Witness, I'll repeat the question: Do you recall that in fact

8 were you actually taken --

9 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Mr. Bos.

10 MR. BOS:

11 Q. Witness, you've read the document. Do you recall that you were

12 actually taken under the command of Mr. Stampar in that period?

13 A. No. I do not, and this is the first time that I see this paper.

14 My name is on it. Had it been true, I'd also have a paper with

15 Mr. Stampar's order.

16 Q. So is it your testimony that you never worked under the command of

17 Mr. Stampar?

18 A. No. I did not say that.

19 Q. Which periods did you work under the command of Mr. Stampar?

20 A. Under Mr. Stampar's command, I never was under his command. I was

21 under the operative command in Mostar, the operative zone command in

22 Mostar, which means that I was a sabotage platoon or squad or company. We

23 were a few. And we were always on the alert, whenever there was need to

24 go to the front line, to replace, we did that.

25 Q. But if there was a need to go to the front line, and the front

Page 13435

1 line was in the area of responsibility of Mr. Stampar, would you then not

2 fall under the command of Mr. Stampar? Is that correct?

3 A. Mr. Stampar could ask the commander of the operative zone some

4 reinforcements, but this paper, I would have seen before. I would have

5 had the paper, and I would follow the order.

6 Q. Witness, this document says that -- the last sentence of this

7 message from Mr. Tuta says, "Orders can only be issued through the

8 Convicts Battalion." What would that mean?

9 A. I cannot answer that because I was never the Convicts Battalion.

10 Q. All right. Let's move on.

11 MR. BOS: Could the witness be shown Exhibit P734?

12 Q. Witness, before we go to that next document, let me just ask you

13 one more question, because you never answered my question whether you ever

14 worked under the command of Mr. Stampar. I've put it to you twice but you

15 never gave me a clear-cut response. Did you ever work under the command

16 of Mr. Stampar? You could say yes or no.

17 A. No.

18 Q. All right. Let's move on to Exhibit P734. Maybe out of an

19 abundance of caution we could go into private session, Your Honour?

20 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we will go to the private session, please.

21 [Private session]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

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Page 13447

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19 [Open session]

20 JUDGE LIU: Witness, yes, Mr. Krsnik?

21 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm not sure it will be

22 very civil on my side but perhaps we could finish the witness today. I

23 have only five minutes to spend with this witness, unless of course you

24 have very many questions. If you do not, perhaps we could finish this

25 witness today. If you do, then he will have to come back tomorrow.

Page 13448

1 JUDGE LIU: Well, I'm afraid we have to stop at 7.00 because some

2 of the staff has been working here from 9.00 in the morning. We already

3 have three minutes past.

4 Witness, I'm sorry that I have to keep you here for another

5 night. You have to understand you are still under the oath during your

6 stay in The Hague so do not talk to anybody about your testimony and do

7 not let anybody talk to you about it. Do you understand that?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Very well.

9 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We will resume tomorrow afternoon.

10 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

11 7.03 p.m., to be reconvened on Wednesday,

12 the 3rd day of June, 2002, at 2.15 p.m.

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