Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 13985

1 Friday, 19 July 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.20 p.m.

5 JUDGE LIU: Call the case, please, Madam Registrar.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case number

7 IT-98-34-T, the Prosecutor versus Naletilic and Martinovic.

8 JUDGE LIU: Could we have the witness, please.

9 Yes, Mr. Par?

10 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours. As the

11 witness is being brought in, with your leave I have something to say about

12 our witness list. First, I'd like to say that we have supplied a new list

13 for the next week, and the protective measures requested for those

14 witnesses. We have also supplied our colleagues in the Prosecution with

15 the same list and we are envisaging but I am looking forward to your

16 instructions. We expect that after this witness is over, we have two more

17 witnesses and we believe that their direct examination will last a very

18 short time, perhaps even less than the witness yesterday. If we can

19 manage to finish them today and we'd really like to ask that everybody

20 makes an effort so that we do finish them, these five people have been

21 here for the past week, they have their tickets for Sunday and are hoping

22 to leave on Sunday, so if it would be possible I'd like to have them

23 finished. Next week I believe we shall have only four working days

24 because I believe we will not be working Friday. We have a list of five

25 witnesses and they will be arriving Sunday. My question to you, Your

Page 13986

1 Honours, is do you think that this estimate of five witnesses for the next

2 week suffices or do you think that we should perhaps try to bring some

3 more witnesses over? Because we have to inform the Victims and Witnesses

4 Unit that these are the witnesses for next week or perhaps do you think we

5 should try to get some other people in here? And then again we have to

6 inform the victims and witnesses unit. Thank you.

7 JUDGE LIU: Well, thank you very much for your information,

8 Mr. Par. And I've already said that I'm not that optimistic as your team,

9 thinking that we could finish five witnesses this week. In my view, we

10 will try our best but I could not guarantee that we could finish the last

11 witness today. So in this case, there might be some delay, so the last

12 witness for this week might sit a little bit longer next Monday. So in

13 this case, with the five witnesses next week, I think we have enough

14 witnesses for the next week.

15 But we will try our best to see how far we could go with this

16 afternoon's proceedings.

17 Yes, could we have the witness?

18 [The witness entered court]

19 WITNESS: WITNESS MB [Resumed]

20 [Witness answered through interpreter]

21 Cross-examined by Mr. Bos: [Continued]

22 JUDGE LIU: Good afternoon, sir.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon to you.

24 JUDGE LIU: Sit down, please.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

Page 13987

1 JUDGE LIU: Did you have a good rest yesterday?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, you could say that, yes, I'm

3 fine.

4 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

5 Mr. Bos, you may start your cross-examination.

6 MR. BOS: Thank you, Your Honours.

7 Q. Good afternoon, Witness.

8 A. Good afternoon to you.

9 Q. Witness, I have a few more questions for you this afternoon, and

10 I'd like to start off by asking were you active in combat during the war

11 against the Serbs starting in 1991?

12 A. No. At that time I was still full-time employed, and I was

13 responsible for a group of people and our duty was to rescue the property

14 that belonged to our company, what was left to simply salvage whatever was

15 left, so that we were a work team and we were getting things out, all the

16 inventory, all the stocks that we had, and we then used it during the war.

17 Q. And was your son, was he active in that war?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Now, if I understood you right, you testified that during that

20 time, your father died? Is it correct that he got killed during this --

21 in this war against the Serbs?

22 A. Immediately after the beginning of the aggression, the Serb

23 aggression, my father wasn't living with me. He was in his family house

24 in the place that I was born in, and some formations, some armed military

25 formations came up and without any announcement whatsoever, took him out

Page 13988

1 and fired five bullets into him, a whole round of five bullets and he was

2 an old man of 85.

3 Q. And these were Serbian military formations who killed your

4 father?

5 A. Serb military formations, yes.

6 Q. All right. Let's move on to another topic. Witness, is it a fair

7 statement to say that your family had a very good relationship with the

8 Martinovic family, since you lived in the same neighbourhood and your son

9 was about the same age as Vinko and you knew each other for about 40

10 years?

11 A. Yes, yes, it is.

12 Q. And is it also correct that you had a very close friendship with

13 Mr. Vinko Martinovic's father, Ivan?

14 A. Yes. We met, we socialised, before the war and during the war. I

15 mean quite normal human relations as it should be between neighbours,

16 caring for each other.

17 Q. Are you to this date still good friends with Ivan Martinovic?

18 A. Yes. And I'd say we are even better friends than we were.

19 Q. Now, witness, was it Ivan who asked you whether you could come

20 here to testify in The Hague?

21 A. When the indictment was published, Ivan did come and asked me if I

22 would mind, if necessary, of my own will, since I survived the war and

23 since I lived in their neighbourhood, would I mind if I went to testify in

24 this case about what I knew about him during the war.

25 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Bos, just turn off the microphone.

Page 13989

1 MR. BOS: My apologies, Your Honours.

2 Q. And Witness, do you know whether Mr. Ivan Martinovic also

3 approached other persons to come here and testify?

4 A. That I do not know.

5 Q. Now, you've stated that your son was about the same age as Vinko.

6 What -- was your son good friends with Vinko? What was their

7 relationship?

8 A. Well, you know, they moved in a narrow circle and like all young

9 people, they were pals, they went out together. And then when they were

10 small boys, they went together, and then as they grew up, so in that

11 sense, they were on good terms.

12 Q. Were they in the same school?

13 A. No, no, no, they were not.

14 Q. And would your son often visit the Martinovic family or would

15 Vinko come and visit your family?

16 A. Well, you know what? They were young people and they would just

17 get together, perhaps they'd bump into each other in the street and then

18 go somewhere together. It's not that they came to -- that they exchanged

19 home visits, that they came to the house, but they went out with their

20 girlfriends and all that.

21 Q. What was your son doing in 1993 when the war started against

22 the -- between the Croats and the Muslims?

23 A. He was -- he lived with me. He had barely married and had a

24 little daughter, and he was there in the family circle.

25 Q. Did he join any army in 1993?

Page 13990

1 A. No, he did not.

2 Q. And did he stay in West Mostar the whole of 1993?

3 A. In September, 1993, he was issued a guarantee by his wife's

4 relatives in Germany, and went to Germany via Zagreb and he stayed there

5 until 1998.

6 Q. Now, in the period before he left Mostar, did he often see Vinko

7 during that period?

8 A. Well, not as often as before, but we -- I would see him now and

9 then, when Vinko offered us some security and assistance. I saw him more

10 often.

11 Q. You saw Vinko more often than your son did? Is that what you're

12 saying?

13 A. Why, yes, because listen, it was dangerous to go out into the

14 street, so I didn't have much opportunity until I joined the civil defence

15 because you don't know when you're in the street, but when I joined the

16 civil defence and when I started moving around more than I used to but he,

17 since he did not join it, it was mostly at home.

18 Q. Witness, let's move to the 9th of May, 1993. You stated that you

19 heard shelling in the morning and that -- I think you said that you first

20 felt that the Serbs attacked Mostar again; is that correct?

21 A. I said, when I heard those strange shouts and some funny din in

22 the yard, I thought that the Muslims and Croats were engaging in general

23 mobilisation in order to offer resistance to the Serbs because until then,

24 everything was fine, I mean between the Muslims and the Croats. All the

25 actions, I mean, were done together.

Page 13991

1 Q. When did you find out that it wasn't in fact a mobilisation but

2 that it was a war between the Croats and the Muslims? Was that on the

3 same day?

4 A. Why, that same day, I could see that the same day because the

5 media began saying something about that, so that I realised that that was

6 it, that a split had occurred between Muslims and that a conflict had

7 broken out that day.

8 Q. And was it also on that same day that you approached Ivan

9 Martinovic for protection?

10 A. No, not that same day, because it was too risky to go out. There

11 were people milling about, a strange situation, civilians, troops, so that

12 no, I didn't do it that day.

13 Q. So how long after the 9th of May did you actually -- went to see

14 the father of Vinko Martinovic?

15 A. Well, first through some Croat friends, who could move about, I

16 let him know that I was there, and could he do whatever he could, in case

17 something bad happened, if he could protect me, me and my family.

18 Q. But was this a few days after the 9th of May or several weeks

19 after the 9th of May?

20 A. Listen, I didn't see him for a few days, but then when I was

21 around those buildings, I came across him and we talked for a while, and I

22 then spoke to him in those words which I have just presented to you.

23 Q. Witness, is it correct to say that you got the protection you've

24 asked for because Ivan Martinovic talked to his son about your concerns?

25 A. Could you repeat, please?

Page 13992

1 Q. Is it correct that you got the protection, you wanted protection

2 from the Martinovic family, is it correct that you got the protection

3 because Ivan Martinovic spoke with Vinko and asked him to protect you?

4 A. Yes. I'm quite sure of it.

5 Q. Now, could you again explain to the Court why you actually went to

6 the Martinovics to ask for protection?

7 A. Well, you know what, when you are friends with somebody and when

8 you, you know, become close, somewhat freer, because you couldn't really

9 turn to just anybody at that time, even though I had other Croat friends,

10 but somehow I felt that at that particular moment, because Mr. Vinko

11 during the Serb conflict and so on, that he was on good terms and said,

12 "Do you need anything, need any help or something?" I mean I wasn't

13 working so that I thought it would be safest if I went to him. But I

14 had some other Croat friends and perhaps I could have gone to them but I

15 did -- well, I knew him and somehow I felt that I -- that it would be all

16 right and I was free to talk to him.

17 Q. Witness, could it be that you heard that Vinko Martinovic had a --

18 had some sort of military position in the area which could make him

19 control other soldiers in the neighbourhood, that you approached the

20 Martinovics for protection?

21 A. Well, he was in a unit, and Tuta, he was also in a unit, which was

22 in that area, and then naturally, being a soldier, and how shall I put it,

23 physically rather fit man who was capable of protecting one, and that is

24 what he did.

25 MR. MEEK: Mr. President.

Page 13993

1 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Meek?

2 MR. MEEK: My colleague Ms. Pinter who speaks fluent Croatian has

3 just informed me that in line 21 in the witness's answer, it came across

4 on the screen, the answer, well, meaning Mr. Martinovic was in a unit, and

5 Tuta he was also in a unit. Ms. Pinter says that he did not say that in

6 Croatian and it must be a problem in translation. He never mentioned

7 Tuta in his language.

8 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Bos, maybe you could ask your question again

9 to make sure the answer is correct.

10 MR. BOS: Well, maybe I should ask.

11 Q. Did you refer to the name Tuta in your answer, Witness?

12 A. No, no, I did not.

13 Q. You've said that Mr. Martinovic was a member of a unit. Do you

14 know the name of that unit?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Witness, yesterday when my learned friend asked you why you felt

17 safe under the protection of Mr. Vinko Martinovic, you stated three

18 reasons. You said that he was a uniformed soldier, that he had

19 determination, and as a third reason you said his readiness to physically

20 oppose somebody at any given moment. Why did you give that last reason?

21 I'd like to know why did you give that last reason? How did you know that

22 Vinko was capable of using physical violence?

23 A. Well, you know, I meant all those groups which at that time, like

24 that, did rounds and did certain things, which were not allowed under any

25 rules, and I think that Vinko was physically fit to be able to resist such

Page 13994

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Page 13995

1 people in such cases.

2 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Par?

3 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I was waiting for the

4 witness to finish, so that I wouldn't lead the witness but in Mr. Bos's

5 question, there was a -- or at least that is how it was interpreted to us,

6 that Vinko Martinovic was ready to physically oppose. I think that this

7 was a wrong word, because what we heard was physical violence. But I

8 think that the word was misused, that the witness did not mean physical

9 violence. He meant fitness. The witness never used the word "violence."

10 JUDGE LIU: Yes. I understand that the witness never used the

11 word "violence." Let's change it into physical "fitness."

12 MR. BOS: Very well.

13 Q. Witness, you spoke about an occasion that soldiers broke into your

14 home. Could you give us the date when this was?

15 A. Did you mean the 9th of May or later on.

16 Q. I'm talking about the second occasion that soldiers broke into

17 your home.

18 A. Yes. It happened sometime in August. Yes. It could have been

19 9.00 or half past 9.00 in the evening. Somebody rang my door bell and I

20 opened the door and there were two men there, one was uniformed and

21 another one was in civilian clothes. They wanted my particulars, my IDs,

22 and the rest, and of my whole family's and I gave it to them. It was all

23 happening in the anteroom, on the staircase, on the landing, and then we

24 had this conversation, what and how, they told me to go with them, and

25 when I asked, where is your son," my wife said, "With Vinko" and when they

Page 13996

1 said, "Which Vinko?" And she said, "Vinko Martinovic Stela, why?" And it

2 was then that they paused and then I could see in their faces that they

3 realised they were doing something that they shouldn't and then they said,

4 "Fine," gave me back the papers and sort of showing, well, perhaps we've

5 made a mistake but we'll drop by later on again.

6 Q. So there were two men one man in uniform and one man in civilian

7 clothes, correct?

8 A. That is how it was, yes.

9 Q. And the man in the uniform, did you recognise the uniform, what

10 kind of uniform did he wear?

11 A. Well, at that time, I didn't really pay much attention but it

12 looked just regular one, a camouflage uniform like the one that those

13 armed units wore at the time.

14 Q. Did it have some sort of patch on the sleeve?

15 A. I didn't see any.

16 Q. Do I understand you right when you say that these -- this soldier

17 and this civilian did not dare to do anything to you and your family when

18 your wife mentioned Vinko's name and explained that he was a friend of

19 your son's?

20 A. Yes. I felt that they suddenly felt insecure for being there,

21 something along those lines.

22 Q. Now, Witness, yesterday you testified -- and you don't know the

23 name of the unit but you said that you knew other members of this unit, of

24 which Stela was a member. Could you give us the names of the other men

25 you know from this unit?

Page 13997

1 A. Well, I can perhaps name one or two men that I knew who were

2 there.

3 Q. Please do.

4 A. Mladen Colak.

5 Q. Could you please spell his last name?

6 A. M-L-A-D-A-N, C-O-L-A-K.

7 Q. You said you knew another name as well.

8 A. Well, I can't remember now. These are the boys from the

9 neighbourhood, but not our immediate neighbourhood.

10 Q. But this Mladen Colak was somebody who also lived in your

11 neighbourhood?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Now, Witness, you briefly spoke yesterday about the civil defence

14 unit which you joined, and I didn't really understand. When was this unit

15 formed? Was this during the war in 1993 or before or after?

16 A. Civil defence units were established immediately after the Serb

17 aggression and since I had my work duty in my company, I was not involved

18 in the units until that time, until the time when the conflict between

19 Croats and Muslims broke out.

20 Q. So when did you get involved?

21 A. On the 9th of May, when my work duty in the company ceased. This

22 is when I joined the units of the civil defence, in the local commune, in

23 the area where I lived.

24 Q. Now, I'm trying to understand here because, so you're saying on

25 the 9th of May, when the war broke out between the Croats and Muslims, you

Page 13998

1 joined this civil defence unit and you testified yesterday that this civil

2 defence unit contained both Muslims, Croats and Serbs. Is that correct?

3 A. Yes, yes. That's correct. There were Serbs there. The Serbs who

4 remained there, who lived as our neighbours. Even in the course of the

5 conflict with the Serbs, there were some there.

6 Q. And so do I understand correct that this civil defence unit was

7 sort of a neighbourhood unit of civilians living in the neighbourhood and

8 trying to protect the neighbourhood -- the neighbourhood?

9 A. These were civilian formations. It was not a reserve military

10 formation of any kind. It was their task to offer protection and to

11 provide food and all the rest that came in, to ensure just distribution

12 and also to assist if there was a power outage or if the water supply was

13 cut, to repair things that needed to be repaired.

14 Q. And it's correct that you -- both you and Vinko's father, Ivan

15 Martinovic, were active in this unit?

16 A. Yes. There were quite a few of us there. These were all the

17 people who were not involved elsewhere. We all had the obligation to

18 report and to assist in those really different times.

19 Q. Now, Witness, there was something in your statement yesterday that

20 struck me when you spoke about the civil defence, because at one time you

21 said that you had an opportunity to meet Mr. Vinko Martinovic himself and

22 then you stated, I'll quote from the transcript, "He was always very

23 forthcoming and he talked with me and it meant a great deal to me at the

24 time. Because even a nice greeting was also a major prize. And he was

25 always ready for that." My question is, Witness, is why is it -- is even

Page 13999

1 a nice greeting from somebody what you have seen grown up in your

2 neighbourhood a major prize for you?

3 A. Well, you see, when you have a state of war, and if somebody is in

4 a position to assist you while people at the same time are changing, I

5 felt that Vinko had remained the same, and when you are in danger in any

6 way, when you're under threat, it wasn't just Vinko. I felt really good

7 if any Croat said hello to me. It simply made me feel better and let

8 alone if somebody provided you assistance.

9 Q. Were you afraid of Mr. Vinko Martinovic at the time?

10 A. No, no, no. I was not afraid. I felt that he was trying to help

11 me, and that he would help me in as much as he would be able to do so.

12 Q. Now, Witness, so you lived in West Mostar during the whole period

13 of 1993. You said that you were a member of the civil defence?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Did you ever witness any instances where Muslims were evicted from

16 their houses by soldiers?

17 A. Well, I didn't see that with my own eyes but I did hear that

18 people would come and evict people, but I was never present at any such

19 occasion or any such incident. I tried to avoid being put in any danger,

20 in any situation that might be potentially dangerous to me.

21 Q. And I think you testified that yesterday is it correct that there

22 was talk among the population that Stela's unit was involved in this

23 practice?

24 A. Yes. I did hear about it.

25 Q. Witness, do you know what happened to the apartments where these

Page 14000

1 Muslims were evicted from?

2 A. The apartments that the Muslims left were filled with people I

3 didn't know, least ways I who lived there would meet those people but I

4 didn't know them.

5 Q. And what ethnicities -- what ethnicity did these people have?

6 A. I think that they were predominantly, as far as I know, Croats,

7 refugees from other areas.

8 Q. Witness, and this is going to be my last question: Did you ever

9 during that period that were you in West Mostar in 1993 see soldiers loot

10 apartments?

11 A. Well, if you want to see such a thing, you have to be present

12 there. I didn't eyewitness anyone taking things away, because at that

13 time, I was not concentrating on that. That was not something that I

14 focused on. I was focusing on my personal security.

15 MR. BOS: Thank you, Witness. I have no further questions.

16 JUDGE LIU: Any re-examination, Mr. Par?

17 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] No re-examination. Thank you, Your

18 Honours.

19 JUDGE LIU: Well, thank you, Witness, for coming to give your

20 evidence. The usher will show you out of the room. We all wish you a

21 pleasant journey back home.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23 [The witness withdrew]

24 JUDGE LIU: At this stage, I think that street map with the

25 original number P11.18 was marked by the witness. Mr. Par, are you going

Page 14001

1 to tender it into evidence?

2 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. We would like to

3 tender it into evidence. That would be Defence Exhibit D2/28.

4 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. I guess there is no objection.

5 MR. BOS: No, Your Honours. I let the witness make some marks on

6 this exhibit as well, but we are happy to keep it as a Defence Exhibit as

7 long as in the minutes it will be noted that the Prosecution asked for

8 some marks as well.

9 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much for your cooperation. It is

10 admitted into evidence as D2/28. That should be under seal, I guess.

11 Yes, could we have the next witness?

12 [The witness entered court]

13 JUDGE LIU: Good afternoon, Witness.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

15 JUDGE LIU: Would you please make the solemn declaration, please?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

17 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

18 WITNESS: WITNESS MC

19 [Witness answered through interpreter]

20 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. You may sit down, please.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Seric? Your direct examination, please.

23 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. President.

24 Examined by Mr. Seric:

25 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, I will be referring to you as Witness,

Page 14002

1 although you will be assigned a pseudonym because you did request this

2 protective measure and this has been granted to you. I have something to

3 ask you. Since we also have the voice distortion as the protective

4 measure, I would like to ask you not to start answering my question before

5 I have switched off my microphone. To verify that, you can look at my

6 microphone and see whether the red light is on. If the red light is not

7 on, you can give your answer.

8 Before that, Ms. Usher will give you a piece of paper with your

9 full name on it. Please do not read it out loud. Just confirm whether

10 this is indeed your name.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Sir, could you please give us some basic details about yourself,

13 without revealing your name and without revealing in any way your

14 identity?

15 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] In fact, if I may request that we go

16 into private session?

17 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we will go to the private session, please.

18 [Private session]

19 [redacted]

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13 [Open session]

14 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Sir, could you please tell all of us here, and in particular the

16 Trial Chamber, what happened to you personally during the conflict or

17 rather when the JNA and the Serb army attacked Mostar?

18 A. When the Serb aggression started, right during the first few days,

19 I went to the 4th Battalion as a volunteer, and I remained there

20 throughout the war.

21 Q. What happened to you during the conflict between the BH Army and

22 the Croatian Defence Council?

23 A. I remained in the 4th Battalion, so the same thing.

24 Q. Do you know Vinko Martinovic?

25 A. Yes.

Page 14006

1 Q. How well do you know him? And since when?

2 A. I've known him since my childhood.

3 Q. Did you see him at the time when the JNA and the Serb army

4 attacked Mostar?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Do you know what his role was in that war?

7 A. At that time, he was the commander of a unit. I think it was

8 called HOS, H-O-S, and he played a prominent role in that war, because of

9 his great courage and his fighting spirit.

10 Q. Do you have any knowledge as to how he treated Muslims?

11 A. Could you please repeat your question?

12 Q. Do you know in which way he treated Muslims in relation to this

13 HOS unit?

14 A. He treated them completely normally, the same way as before the

15 war.

16 Q. Do you know what was the ethnic composition of this HOS unit?

17 A. Well, to a considerable extent.

18 Q. Can you tell us something about it?

19 A. I think that 40 to 50 per cent of the personnel in his unit were

20 Muslims.

21 Q. Did the way Vinko Martinovic treat you personally change

22 throughout this time?

23 A. No, never, not even for a second.

24 Q. Do you remember the day when the conflict broke out between the BH

25 Army and the Croatian Defence Council in Mostar?

Page 14007

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. When was that?

3 A. I think it was on the 9th of May.

4 Q. Can you tell us very briefly what happened during that day, the

5 things that you yourself observed or heard, and that you personally

6 experienced?

7 A. The night before, I was on duty in the battalion, so that I spent

8 that evening at home, sleeping. In the morning, I was awakened by fierce

9 shooting. I got up, didn't know what was happening. I got into my car

10 and went straight to my battalion. And there, they told me that the

11 conflict broke out between the BH Army and the HVO. I spent the entire

12 day in the battalion. It was a pretty chaotic situation. There was

13 shooting everywhere. In the evening, I went back home and I think that I

14 met Vinko somewhere in Balinovac. I asked him, "Well, friend, what is

15 going on?" He said, "I don't know anything. You can see yourself, nobody

16 can tell where the shooting is coming from. The town is on fire. If you

17 are afraid, you can go to Jagoda. My mother was in Jagoda." I went back

18 to the battalion and stayed there until quite late. So that would be more

19 or less that day, the way I remember it, the day when the conflict between

20 the BH Army and the HVO started.

21 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President.

22 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] I think there is an interpretation

23 error. When the witness told us about his conversation between himself

24 and Vinko Martinovic, when he told him about his mother, Jagoda. In fact

25 Jagoda is not his mother but Vinko Martinovic's mother. That's the name

Page 14008

1 of Vinko Martinovic's mother.

2 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Seric, you may ask a question about that,

3 bearing in mind the protective measures for this witness.

4 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President.

5 Q. Well, let me just ask you, who Jagoda is?

6 A. Jagoda is Vinko's mother.

7 Q. How did you, as a Muslim Bosniak, see this conflict?

8 A. First of all, as a human being, I took this conflict very hard. I

9 couldn't believe what was happening. Although there were some indications

10 that this might happen, because the BH Army was already -- had already

11 been regrouping its positions and withdrawing from the staffs in the town,

12 although not many people believed that this would happen. But in the end,

13 the thing that happened happened.

14 Q. Could you please repeat, what was your unit, your military

15 formation?

16 A. I was in the unit that was called the 4th Battalion.

17 Q. Of the Croatian Defence Council?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. How did you feel personally? Did you feel safe? And do you have

20 any knowledge as to how your neighbours, Muslim neighbours, felt, the ones

21 that you knew? I'm referring to the area that was under the control of

22 the Croatian Defence Council.

23 A. I myself felt safe, and all my neighbours, Muslim neighbours, who

24 lived there, had they not felt safe, they would have left, I presume.

25 Mostly all of them remained there, apart from just a few people who left

Page 14009

1 right at the beginning of the conflict. And these people are still

2 there.

3 Q. Did you personally, or your family, experience any kind of

4 unpleasantness or pressure?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Do you have any personal knowledge of the fact that Vinko

7 Martinovic had expelled anyone?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Do you know what his role was at the time? Where was he, what he

10 was doing, in what unit was he?

11 A. Vinko Martinovic was the commander of a unit that was called

12 Mrmak. And they held positions right on the Bulevar.

13 Q. I would now like to show you an aerial photograph, if you can

14 recognise whether the position that his unit held is on the picture? And

15 that would be Prosecution Exhibit 14.5. And it would be our Exhibit

16 D2/29.

17 Witness, could you take the pointer and show us which part of the

18 front line, or rather the separation line, was manned by Vinko

19 Martinovic's unit?

20 A. This part here. This is the health centre. This is Bulevar. And

21 Vinko, Vinko was here. So this is the area.

22 MR. SERIC: I'm sorry, Mr. President, I could barely hear the

23 witness. I do not know if you received any interpretation. Thank you.

24 Q. Will you now take the marker and make circle -- make a circle

25 around that area that you showed us?

Page 14010

1 A. [marks] I've done it.

2 Q. Can you point at the segment of the separation line manned by your

3 unit?

4 A. You cannot see it here because there are these streets, but it's

5 down here to -- moving left.

6 Q. Very well. Thank you. We won't need this photograph any more.

7 You said that you kept a workshop?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. What did it serve for?

10 A. Well, it was a locksmith, a metal working shop. We repaired cars,

11 locks, doors, minor repairs, maintenance.

12 Q. Do you know whether the detainees from the Heliodrom were brought

13 to the base of Vinko Martinovic's unit?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. How do you know that? Do you have any specific example?

16 A. Yes, I do. Specifically, my half brother was there.

17 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Excuse me, Mr. President, could we go

18 to private session.

19 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we will go to private session.

20 [Private session]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

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4 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Witness, are you familiar with the charges against

6 Mr. Martinovic? And if so, how?

7 A. Well, perhaps I'm not sure I could quote it but I saw it in the

8 press, I watch television so I more or less know what it is about.

9 Q. Why did you seek protective measures, voice and facial protection?

10 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Could we go into private session once

11 again, please, Mr. President? Don't answer.

12 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we will go to the private session, please.

13 [Private session]

14 [redacted]

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11 [Open session]

12 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation].

13 Q. And that was my last question, Mr. President, thank you very much?

14 JUDGE LIU: We have five minutes left. I suggest that we make a

15 break here. Is that agreeable to both parties? Yes. We'll resume at

16 4.00.

17 --- Recess taken at 3.36 p.m.

18 --- On resuming at 4.01 p.m.

19 JUDGE LIU: Yes, cross-examination, Mr. Scott.

20 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. President.

21 Cross-examined by Mr. Scott:

22 Q. Sir, I'm going to ask you a few questions. Good afternoon.

23 A. Good afternoon.

24 MR. SCOTT: If the witness could please be shown a copy of Exhibit

25 11.18, please? It shouldn't be broadcast outside the courtroom but as

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Page 14015

1 long as nobody can see it, it doesn't --

2 Q. Sir, I know you've told us that you came from [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 MR. SCOTT: Perhaps again we will go to private session.

5 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we will go to the private session, please.

6 [Private session]

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11 [Open session]

12 JUDGE LIU: We will go back to the open session. We are now in

13 open session.

14 MR. SCOTT:

15 Q. Sir, in a summary of your anticipated testimony that was provided

16 to us, there are references that there were various criminal groups moving

17 around your neighbourhood, and I'd like to ask you about that. Were there

18 groups during 1993, as the fighting between the Croats and Muslims was

19 going on, were there criminal groups that were operating in your

20 neighbourhood?

21 A. Well, at that time, it was in existence, but I think to a lesser

22 degree.

23 Q. Well, it says that you approached -- you had approached Stela one

24 or more times to seek protection from these various criminal groups. So

25 did you in fact seek protection from these criminal groups or not?

Page 14021

1 A. I don't think that I said that I sought protection against

2 criminal groups, but merely that I asked him, "Well, my friend, what is

3 going on?" Something to that effect, but nobody could defend themselves

4 against those groups because there were so many people who were

5 foreigners, who nobody knew. Let me give you a specific example. A Deutz

6 truck was taken away from my neighbour. Now, who I ask you would come out

7 and stand in front of a handful of armed people and tell them anything?

8 And then Vinko came right at that moment, asked me what was going on, I

9 said, well, they are trying to take away this man's car. And then he

10 said, "Well, what are you doing, guys?" And they said, "Well, we need

11 this car." And then he said, "Please, let the car be." And they did. God

12 knows how many groups, such groups, there were. It's impossible to tell.

13 Q. Well, these individuals who were about to take the car that you

14 said Mr. Martinovic stopped, were these soldiers? Were they in uniform?

15 A. They had uniforms but it is true that everybody was able to obtain

16 uniforms. It doesn't mean that they were members of a unit.

17 Q. Well, did you think at the time that they were soldiers or did you

18 think they were just individuals acting as criminals?

19 A. At that time, I thought that they were probably soldiers.

20 Q. All right. Now, sir, also in a summary that we were provided

21 with, it indicated that one of the ways that you were protected, that

22 Muslim families were protected, was by giving them documents. For

23 example, documents establishing them as being members of Stela's unit. Did

24 you ever know about that happening?

25 A. Could you please repeat your question?

Page 14022

1 Q. Are you aware of any instances where Mr. Martinovic, Stela,

2 provided you or your family or to your knowledge other Muslims with some

3 sort of documentation or documents for the purpose of protecting them?

4 A. I was a bit afraid because of my shop, because I did jobs for my

5 unit, for his units and for many other units, whoever would come there. I

6 took a paper from him and I put it on my shop, indicating that the shop

7 was doing the jobs for the 4th Battalion, for his unit, and for another

8 unit, I think. Simply in order for the criminals to be afraid, because

9 they felt differently if they saw a list of such units. They would then

10 be afraid to steal anything.

11 Q. All right. Well, following on that, what sort of list or

12 documentation, then, were you given to have for the purpose of having that

13 effect, that is of as you say, scaring, making these people to be afraid

14 to bother you?

15 A. Well, it was just a white paper, certifying that I was -- that my

16 shop was doing jobs for the battalion and that I myself was a member of

17 that battalion. It was nothing special, really.

18 Q. And was it Stela who gave that you piece of paper?

19 A. I took a piece of paper from him too, because I asked him to write

20 such a paper for me.

21 Q. You talked about having this shop and the need to operate this

22 shop to repair vehicles. Were you acting during this time, sir, as a

23 primarily as a soldier? Did you have a position on the Bulevar that you

24 had to man? Or were you working in your shop during this time period?

25 A. I was considered to be a soldier, although I worked in the shop,

Page 14023

1 but I did go to the line for maybe ten times, if there wasn't enough

2 personnel. If they were short of men, then everybody from the logistics

3 would go there because it happened quite often that they were short of

4 men.

5 Q. And when did you join the HVO, by the way?

6 A. From day one.

7 Q. Well, if the HVO was first formed in approximately April, 1992,

8 are you saying you joined the HVO in April, 1992?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And then how long did you continue to be a member of the HVO?

11 When did you leave the army?

12 A. Until the last day.

13 Q. And I'm sorry, sir, meaning what? The last day of what?

14 A. That means when the battalion was disbanded and no longer existed.

15 Q. Perhaps you can assist us a bit with the date. When did the unit

16 disband? You don't have to give us the exact day but approximately when

17 did that happen?

18 A. I really don't know. I couldn't recall the exact date. It may

19 have been -- but don't hold me to what I'm saying -- may have been 1994 or

20 1995. I don't remember, really.

21 Q. All right. But it was well after 1993; is that correct?

22 A. Yes, that's correct. But the documents exist and it shouldn't be

23 a problem to determine the date.

24 Q. Now, was this document about your garage, the fact that it was

25 used in a sense to assist the HVO, apart from that document, piece of

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Page 14025

1 paper that you said you obtained, to your knowledge, were any other

2 papers -- for the purposes of protecting you, either given to you or your

3 family or other Muslims in that area by Mr. Martinovic?

4 A. I had my military ID card. That was simply to protect this part

5 of my property, because some people may have aspired to get the machinery,

6 the tools that were there and on many occasions the house was empty. That

7 was simply the reason why I needed that.

8 Q. Now, moving forward to the 9th of May, 1993 for a moment, were you

9 with Mr. Martinovic that day?

10 A. The 9th of May, yes, I met him in the early evening hours.

11 Q. And where was that? Where were you located at the time you met

12 him?

13 A. We met somewhere in Balinovac.

14 Q. Was that just a coincidence that you met him or was there any

15 other purpose to meeting Mr. Martinovic at that time?

16 A. It was just a coincidence.

17 Q. And is it correct, sir, that that's the only time that you saw him

18 on the day of May 9th?

19 A. Yes, that's correct.

20 Q. And did you see him at all the next day, on the 10th of May?

21 A. I don't think so. It's impossible for me now to remember

22 everything. It was a really chaotic situation with the shooting

23 everywhere. Everything was on fire. And it's really hard to notice

24 things and to remember them later, little details, I mean. Half the

25 people didn't know what was going on at that time.

Page 14026

1 MR. SCOTT: I'd like the witness to be shown, please, exhibits --

2 if you can put them both before him at the same time because they are

3 closely related 455.1 and 456.2.

4 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Seric?

5 MR. MEEK: We have not been provided --

6 JUDGE LUI: Yes, Mr. Seric.

7 MR. SERIC: Mr. President, we don't know what this is all about

8 because we haven't been given anything.

9 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, they are sitting here. My apologies.

10 They should have been distributed, and by oversight, they weren't.

11 JUDGE LIU: Yes, they should.

12 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] I refuse to accept them, I refuse to

13 take them because we weren't given these documents on time, just before

14 the cross-examination, and an order was issued to the Prosecution to that

15 effect. And this was just before the break. I cannot now read this very

16 fast, because I cannot then see whether I have any objections to them or

17 not.

18 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Seric, I believe that most of the documents

19 have been used or admitted in this courtroom. And I understand that most

20 of the witnesses are not political or high military officials, so I

21 believe in this case, those documents will be used in a very limited way.

22 Let us see how far the Prosecutor will go with those documents.

23 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, I would also say that 455.1 and 456.2

24 are both already admitted. They have been used with a number of

25 witnesses. So I don't think there is any surprise.

Page 14027

1 Q. Sir, I'd like you to look at both of those documents briefly,

2 actually you can concentrate again to save time, you're welcome to look at

3 both but if you could direct your attention to 456.2, and there is a --

4 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Seric?

5 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. President,

6 but I really don't want to argue but as a matter of principle I want this

7 to be entered into the record. I want to object to the fact that the

8 Defence is not given documents on time. This is for the sake of the

9 future of the proceedings and the future way that the Prosecution treats

10 us.

11 JUDGE LIU: Well, in this aspect, I'm very sympathetic to you

12 because we have a very long break after the first -- after the direct

13 examination. So I believe that during that break, the Prosecution side

14 had enough time to distribute those documents they intended to use during

15 the cross-examination.

16 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, I'd like to respond, please.

17 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

18 MR. SCOTT: If we had immediately gone to cross-examination, if we

19 had immediately instead of going on a break, I had immediately stood up

20 and asked my first question, the documents would have been distributed at

21 that time. There would have been no additional time, no different than

22 now. It would be no difference whatsoever between the time that counsel

23 would have had the documents. I do apologise, as I've said, they were

24 sitting right there, and it was an oversight that they weren't distributed

25 during the break, and for that, counsel has my apology.

Page 14028

1 Q. Now, sir, if you will look at, in the Croatian language version,

2 I'd like you to look at the first paragraph and again 456.2. I'm going to

3 read this to you and I'll ask you a few questions about it. "With

4 reference to yesterday's incident, I can relate the following. After I

5 sent the men to the line, I went to the command of the 1st Battalion.

6 There I was received a report that men in uniforms were moving about --"

7 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please slow down when

8 reading?

9 MR. SCOTT: Yes.

10 Q. "In zone 3, that is to say in the Dum complex of buildings,

11 gathering Muslims in the buildings, firing and disturbing public law and

12 order. I immediately went to the scene and encountered Stela with 40

13 soldiers. I asked one of them what they were doing. He said that they

14 were there with Tuta -- excuse me, they were with Tuta, and that Tuta told

15 them to gather all and send them to the other side."

16 And this is a report concerning events on the 13th and 14th of

17 June, 1993. Now, the area that's described as zone number 3, did that

18 include any part of the Bulevar confrontation line, sir, where you said

19 you were assigned as part of the 4th Battalion?

20 A. Could you please repeat your question?

21 Q. The report, sir, makes reference to a zone 3, and if you know, did

22 that include any part of the confrontation line for which your unit, the

23 4th Battalion, was responsible?

24 A. Whether our unit was responsible for that area, if I understand

25 your question correctly? Is that so?

Page 14029

1 Q. Yes. For any part of zone 3.

2 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Seric?

3 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] I'm not objecting to the document. I

4 am objecting as to the foundation of the question, because this document

5 is not the proper foundation for this question. It's obvious that the

6 purpose why the Prosecution read out this document was completely

7 different. He obviously needed this document for another purpose.

8 JUDGE LIU: Well, it's very difficult to judge the intention of

9 the other party for us. Mr. Scott, you may proceed with your question,

10 and then we'll arrive it at the conclusion, because it's very difficult

11 for us to make any decisions on that.

12 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President the issue of needing a document, the

13 document is already --

14 [Trial Chamber confers]

15 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, just to respond to counsel, the issue of

16 me needing a document, the document is already in evidence, Mr. President.

17 It's already in evidence. The Chamber, I believe, has seen both these

18 documents before so it's not a question of needing the document. I wanted

19 to ask the witness questions about it and that's what I've done.

20 Q. I go back to my question, sir, did the area of the 4th Battalion's

21 responsibility on the confrontation line include anything that was

22 described as zone 3?

23 A. I don't understand the question.

24 Q. Well, let me come at it this way. Are you familiar -- does the

25 term "zone 3" mean anything to you?

Page 14030

1 A. Zone 3, would that be the health care centre? The medical

2 centre?

3 Q. Sir, I can't give that information to you. I can only ask you the

4 questions.

5 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Scott, you may ask this witness what his

6 responsibility was -- what's the area of his responsibility.

7 MR. SCOTT: Very well, Mr. President, we will approach it that

8 way.

9 Q. What part of the confrontation line did you have any

10 responsibility for?

11 A. The part of the confrontation line from Sipad to Aleksica,

12 Aleksica's house. This is where it was more or less.

13 Q. All right. Perhaps we should go to private session, in light of

14 these difficulties, Mr. President. It might be helpful to have the aerial

15 photograph again, the one that we were using before?

16 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we will go to the private session, please.

17 MR. SCOTT: Actually I think not the aerial photograph but the

18 street map, the 11.18.

19 [Private session]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

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5 [Open session]

6 JUDGE CLARK: Are we ready? Witness MC, I believe you are, same

7 as my initials so I should remember that, just on the last issue that you

8 were describing, where you stood in for the person who normally brought

9 the prisoners from the Heliodrom, who was away for a few days, you

10 described to Mr. Scott how you just collected the prisoners and then later

11 on you returned them. Do you recall did you bring them to the same place

12 every day for the few days that you stood in for your colleague?

13 A. Same place, same place.

14 JUDGE CLARK: And was that the front line at your battalion --

15 sorry, the front line of your battalion?

16 A. From the Heliodrom, I took them to the battalion, to the

17 battalion. And after that, I had nothing to do with them. I do my job in

18 my workshop. 15, 20 minutes, half an hour, 7, 8 o'clock, depends, I mean

19 when they call me, get leer to take them back, and that was my job for

20 those three, four, five days. But the name or man, names, I can't

21 remember the name of any man. And there is no way I can do that.

22 JUDGE CLARK: Witness MC, that's quite understandable. I don't

23 think that's what Mr. Scott was asking you, whether you knew the names.

24 But what I'm asking you now, and I think he was trying to ask you, when

25 you went to collect the detainees that you'd left at the 4th Battalion,

Page 14043

1 was there any system in operation whereby you would count them back or

2 you'd have any document to fill in that the same number that you brought

3 returned in the vehicle?

4 A. Now, how shall I explain it to you? When the deputy commander,

5 commander, captain, whoever was responsible for them there, he was the one

6 who kept the count. My job was along side, that is my job, you also drive

7 them, drive them up, drive them down. Anything else, I really cannot

8 speak about anything else.

9 JUDGE CLARK: Thank you. Now I'm wandering back over your

10 evidence. You explained to us, Witness MC, that you were in the HVO long

11 before the conflict began on the 9th of May. Can you tell me, because of

12 your experience -- I know you were in logistics -- but was the

13 confrontation line not already in existence before the 9th of May? This

14 one on the Bulevar.

15 A. No.

16 JUDGE CLARK: So when did it -- when was it determined? Its

17 location, when was that determined?

18 A. After the 9th. After the conflict.

19 JUDGE CLARK: Very good. Now, --

20 A. At least from what I know. Because you see, I was a soldier first

21 of all.

22 JUDGE CLARK: I accept that your understanding is that the

23 confrontation line only came into existence after the 9th of May.

24 Now, if I move to a different issue, Witness MC, we are becoming

25 familiar with the various names and first names of the various ethnic

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Page 14045

1 groups in Bosnia and Herzegovina, and I think that I would recognise very

2 easily that yours is a Muslim name.

3 A. Yes.

4 JUDGE CLARK: We've heard evidence from a number of people, that

5 doesn't mean it's correct, but we've heard this evidence, that Muslim

6 members of the HVO, who were many originally, were in fact disarmed and

7 arrested, as the conflict between the Croats and the Muslims progressed.

8 How did you escape that particular fate? If you think my question is too

9 personal, you can say so, but if it's a question you're prepared to help

10 us with --

11 A. No, no, no. Quite all right. In that unit, Muslims who wanted to

12 do so, moved -- crossed over to the BH Army. Those who didn't want to,

13 stayed on and nobody harmed them. I was born there. My home was there.

14 So it was natural for me to stay on.

15 JUDGE CLARK: And as you were describing earlier, you felt quite

16 safe, as a Muslim, in this particular battalion. Now, my question is:

17 Would that generally have been known in the area where you lived, that

18 you, as a Muslim, were a card-carrying member of the HVO?

19 A. But of course it was known.

20 JUDGE CLARK: And the reason I ask you that was that I was

21 wondering did any of your Muslim neighbours or friends, who were not in

22 the HVO come to you for protection because of your position?

23 A. To begin with, I had no position to speak of. I was just a foot

24 soldier who worked in a workshop, and all the other Muslims from my

25 street, without any IDs or anything, they stayed there throughout the war

Page 14046

1 and are still there.

2 JUDGE CLARK: So it's your position that even though you were a

3 foot soldier in the HVO, you were in no position to afford any protection

4 to your Muslim neighbours?

5 A. Well, I had no need to. I don't know what kind of protection.

6 Everything was more or less normal. Not only Muslims. Croats, Muslims

7 and Serbs, those who were left, nobody was indifferent. Ever was afraid

8 of all these groups and gangs. You have, countless examples when the

9 Croats were robbed and as I said in the beginning, my friend, he's a

10 Croat, his mother was robbed. Nobody could say, "I am safe." But then

11 somehow one managed, one squeezed through, and that was that.

12 JUDGE CLARK: That's all my questions. Thank you very much.

13 JUDGE LIU: Any questions out of Judges question? Mr. Seric?

14 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I do not. I would have

15 nodded but I cannot because of all these binders but I do not have any

16 questions.

17 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. Mr. Scott?

18 MR. SCOTT: No.

19 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Witness, thank you very much for coming

20 leer to help us. We appreciate it very much. The usher will show you out

21 of the room. We all wish you a pleasant journey back home.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23 [The witness withdrew]

24 JUDGE LIU: During the direct examination, the document P14.5,

25 which was a photo of the front line, was used and marked by the witness.

Page 14047

1 Now it became the D2/29, if I'm not mistaken. It's admitted into evidence

2 because it's a photo. In cross-examination, P11.18, a street map of

3 Mostar was used and marked by the witness. Because this map is used in

4 this courtroom, it is admitted into the evidence. Under seal.

5 Are there any other documents would you like to tender,

6 Mr. Scott?

7 MR. SCOTT: Yes, Mr. President, I think on this occasion I think

8 perhaps we can do this more quickly. The number for the marked copy of

9 P11.18, Madam Registrar? 15/15? Yes, Your Honour, in addition to that

10 one, the only -- I think the only other two that were used that were

11 previously not admitted were 609.3 and 612.3, both of which come from the

12 Zagreb archive and have quite clearly possess the stamp from the archive

13 and we would tender those two additional documents.

14 JUDGE LIU: Any objections, Mr. Seric?

15 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, will you give us

16 sometime to respond to the -- these two documents which were tender by the

17 Prosecution? Of course, I mean these two new documents.

18 JUDGE LIU: Yes, but you have to did it as soon as possible

19 because there are only two documents. Thank you.

20 Mr. Meek?

21 MR. MEEK: The accused Naletilic would object to 609.3 and also to

22 P612.3 on the grounds that this witness specifically and clearly testified

23 he had no clue about the detainees who were allegedly wounded when they

24 were returned. He explained what his job was during the few days that the

25 normal driver was elsewhere. His job was not to look after the prisoners

Page 14048

1 nor was his job to count the prisoners or count heads. Judge Clark's

2 question made that quite clear. This witness could shed no light on these

3 two documents other than he admitted, yes, he took the prisoners and he

4 brought them back. Now the relevance of these documents for the

5 Prosecution, I believe, is the fact that the documents indicate in writing

6 that one or two of the prisoners, upon return to the Heliodrom, were

7 injured. The witness quite specifically and clearly stated he didn't know

8 anything about that handwriting. The handwriting -- there is no evidence

9 the handwriting was put on in his presence. He never observed any wounded

10 prisoners, so there is no foundation. It's irrelevant and there is no

11 probative value and we object, object all of those grounds.

12 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. We will take your objections

13 into consideration when we consider the admission of those documents after

14 we received the written submissions from the Defence counsel for

15 Martinovic at a later stage.

16 MR. MEEK: And for the record, Mr. President, we would join in

17 with any further objections by the counsel for Mr. Martinovic.

18 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, for the sake of time could I just --

19 can I please respond now because counsel has not correctly stated our

20 position. The main reason, in fact, that they were tendered was because

21 initially the witness denied having any involvement with prisoners

22 whatsoever. And in fact, while he didn't -- I believe it's a fair

23 statement that while he didn't recall the facts about any particular

24 witness being wounded or captured, he did not in fact deny that he was

25 involved in fact when confronted with the documents that he was in fact

Page 14049

1 involved with transporting them back and forth. Therefore, it is directly

2 relevant.

3 JUDGE LIU: Well, your view is registered in the transcript. We

4 also would like to take into consideration at a later stage. But now we

5 are not debating this issue. Your views are all there, no?

6 MR. MEEK: Mr. President, my view is not there because if that is

7 the point of the admission of these two document by my learned friend,

8 then the record is very clear that the question asked of this witness,

9 "Was he involved in taking detainees for forced labour"? This witness

10 specifically testified that the people that were taken out were not used

11 for forced labour. In fact they requested to be taken out. And there is

12 a very big difference. The record is clear, the question was for forced

13 labour. It was obvious the witness answered no, not to forced labour.

14 Voluntary labour is a different thing than forced labour. So that's our

15 position.

16 JUDGE LIU: Well, I'm afraid we have to spend a whole afternoon

17 debating on the testimony of this witness so we will leave it to a later

18 stage.

19 Yes, Madam Registrar?

20 THE REGISTRAR: I would just like to inform both parties that it's

21 very important that you let me know if a document is confidential or under

22 seal when it's pertaining to a witness. Thank you.

23 JUDGE LIU: Well, it's time for a break. We hope that we could

24 hear the next witness after the break. We will resume at 10 minutes to

25 6.00.

Page 14050

1 --- Recess taken at 5.20 p.m.

2 --- On resuming at 5.52 p.m.

3 JUDGE LIU: Could we have the witness, please?

4 [The witness entered court]

5 JUDGE LIU: Good afternoon, Witness. Can you hear me?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

7 JUDGE LIU: Would you please make the solemn declaration, please?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

9 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

10 WITNESS: WITNESS MD

11 [Witness answered through interpreter]

12 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. You may sit down, please.

13 Yes, Mr. Par.

14 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

15 Examined by Mr. Par:

16 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, ma'am. Before we begin with our

17 conversation, I would like to tell you that the Trial Chamber has granted

18 the protective measures for you so that your identity will be completely

19 protected and parts of the testimony which might lead to revealing of your

20 identity will be conducted in closed session. Let me just warn you right

21 at the beginning that you have to speak slowly because of the

22 interpretation, and not to answer my question immediately, but only when

23 the red light on my microphone has been switched off. This is the time

24 when you should start answering my question.

25 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Now I would like to request that we move

Page 14051

1 into private session.

2 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we will go to the private session, please.

3 [Private session]

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12 [Open session]

13 MR. PAR: [Interpretation]

14 Q. We will begin this examination with the beginning of the Serb

15 aggression on Mostar. How old were you at the time?

16 A. 16, 17.

17 Q. Can you tell us who did you live with at the time but don't

18 mention any names?

19 A. With my parents and my sisters.

20 Q. At that time, at the time of the Serb aggression on the town, did

21 anything happen to you in particular or did you just have to live through

22 that period? We don't have to dwell too long on that?

23 A. No, nothing in particular happened.

24 Q. Did you, at that time, so that's the very beginning with the war

25 with the Serbs, did you know Vinko Martinovic, Stela?

Page 14054

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Page 14055

1 A. Yes, I did.

2 Q. Can you tell us briefly how did you know him? How well did you

3 know him? What kind of terms were you on?

4 A. Since we lived in the same neighbourhood, we knew each other from

5 before, although we are not of the same generation. When the war began, I

6 went -- I was going to school and we would see each other. He would drive

7 me to school. Sometimes, and that's how we became friends.

8 Q. Please tell us, at this time, when the war with the Serbs was

9 going on, was he involved militarily in it? Was he a member of any

10 military unit?

11 A. Yes. He was a member of HOS.

12 Q. Do you know if he held any posts in HOS or anything?

13 A. Well he was one of the commanders in HOS.

14 Q. Can you tell us, please, what was his attitude towards Muslim

15 Bosniaks at the time? How did he treat them? Is there anything

16 particular about the way he treated them? Was there any difference

17 between the way he treated Muslims and Croats?

18 A. No, no. There was no difference. He acted normally. He treated

19 people as friends and acquaintances if they were.

20 Q. Now we will move on to this other conflict that happened in Mostar

21 after the conflict with the Serbs and that's the conflict between Croats

22 and Muslims. Do you remember that day and if you do, could you please

23 tell us when it was?

24 A. It was on the 9th of May, 1993. That's when it began.

25 Q. Can you tell us briefly how did you and your family experience

Page 14056

1 that day? What happened to you? Give us a picture of the events for you

2 and your family.

3 A. Well, we were at home. It happened at around 5.20 in the morning,

4 shooting began. Nobody knew anything. Nobody even guessed what was

5 happening. We were at home and then soldiers came. They asked for our

6 documents. And then they took us out, all of us. My younger sister was

7 crying. She was seven at the time. She was crying and she was begging

8 one of the soldiers, "Please, sir, don't kill us." And then he took my

9 mother and my sister back into the apartment and then myself, my older

10 sister and my father followed them. The rest remained lined up in front

11 of the building. One of the neighbours from Gornja street, a Croat, came

12 out and started swearing and cursing us, cursing, saying, "What are you

13 doing? I have to continue to living with these people? Not you. You

14 can't do it like this." And everybody was taken back to their apartments.

15 Nobody was expelled.

16 Q. You say that they were soldiers. Do you know which soldiers these

17 were? Did you recognise anyone? Do you know what formation they belonged

18 to?

19 A. No. I didn't recognise anyone. They were just soldiers.

20 Q. We are being warned that we will have to speak a bit slower. So I

21 understand you correctly, you didn't know those soldiers and you didn't

22 know what unit they belonged to?

23 A. No.

24 Q. You say that in the end, all the citizens who had been taken out

25 of the building were brought back. My question is who lived in the

Page 14057

1 building? Were they Croats, Muslims? What was the proportion, the ratio

2 of ethnicities in your building?

3 A. There were Croats, Muslims, three Croat apartments and four Muslim

4 apartments. One apartment was empty. Nobody lived there. We were all

5 taken out. Regardless of our ethnic background. And fortunately we were

6 all then allowed to go back or brought back.

7 Q. You say that your family remained there throughout the war. Did

8 the other Muslim families also remain there throughout the war?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. During those days, did you see Vinko Martinovic, Stela? I mean

11 around the time when the conflict broke out, the 9th of May?

12 A. Not before but afterwards, yes.

13 Q. Can you please tell us how did you see him? What happened?

14 A. I had my grandmother, who lived in Djikovina. That was one street

15 below from us. I didn't know what was with her. Vinko came to see what

16 was happening with us, how we were. I asked him if we could go to the

17 apartment, to check whether my grandmother was there. But she wasn't

18 because she had been expelled to the east side of the town. I spoke to

19 Vinko then. He said that I shouldn't be afraid, that nothing would happen

20 to anyone from our street, that he would try to come or send one of his

21 boys, because we all knew each other, to prevent any other people from

22 coming and coming and from persecuting us and, and that's how it happened.

23 Nobody showed up in our street any more.

24 Q. Please tell me, you said that either he would come or some of his

25 soldiers would come. Did you know his soldiers to know that they belonged

Page 14058

1 to him?

2 A. Yes, I did know them.

3 Q. Can you tell me how come that you know them? From where?

4 A. Well, it's all the people from the neighbourhood, from that part

5 of the town. And we mostly knew each other and indeed we still do.

6 Q. And you say that this is what happened. Could you be more

7 specific. Did they come? Did Vinko come? How did they can came? Did

8 they contact you or maybe the other Muslim families? How did it happen?

9 A. Well, Vinko did come, every now and again, quite frequently. We

10 would speak to him. He would ask whether we had any problems, did anyone

11 come and bother us or mistreat us? But mostly nothing happened. So we

12 felt no need to call him. But he would come on his own.

13 Q. Can you please tell us, throughout this period, did anyone come to

14 your door again, either from the army, the soldiers, or did anyone come to

15 bother you at all again?

16 A. Well, yes. There was looting going on in the part of the town in

17 a certain period of time. People would come into the -- break into the

18 apartments and take all the valuables and one evening they came to our

19 apartment. I opened the door. My parents were there. And my younger

20 sister was also there. There were three men in uniform. I didn't see

21 their insignia. They said that they had come, that they were from Stela's

22 unit. I didn't know them. But I didn't dare to say anything. What could

23 I say? They entered the apartment. Asked for our documents, and one of

24 them got ready to take away the TV and some other valuables. He asked if

25 there was anybody else living in the apartment? And I said, yes, my older

Page 14059

1 sister. I didn't call her. I showed her ID because she was in the HVO at

2 the beginning of the war with the Serbs and that's how she retained this

3 ID card. When they saw it, they left, like there is nothing we can do

4 here. There is nothing that -- nothing for us here.

5 Q. Okay. You did mention that there was looting going on in that

6 part of the town, and that the men that came wanted to take away your TV

7 set and so on. Let's take it one thing at a time. What kind of looting?

8 Who did it? What did you see? Could you please clarify this a bit?

9 A. As to what I saw or heard, they entered the apartments below me.

10 They did it so quietly that nobody realised it. Nobody else realised it

11 and they took away all the valuables.

12 Q. Did you hear how many were they, what kinds of people?

13 A. Well, usually it would be two or three men in uniforms and they

14 would claim that they were members of Stela's unit.

15 Q. Is this the same manner in which the three men that came to your

16 apartment operated?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. How can we then understand it? How do you know that this man

19 wanted to take away your TV set? What did he do to make you think that he

20 wanted to take your TV set?

21 A. Well, while we were standing out in the corridor talking to him,

22 he entered my room. He unplugged the TV set and he rolled up the wire and

23 the -- also did the same thing with the video. And he set it all up so

24 that he can take it away when he left. The same thing happened in the

25 other room. They were asking for -- looking for gold, money, valuables.

Page 14060

1 Q. All right. So when they finally when they saw this ID card they

2 left without taking anything with them. Could you please tell me, did you

3 notify anyone about this event? More specifically I want to know whether

4 you notified Vinko Martinovic, Stela, because these men had purported to

5 be members of Stela's unit?

6 A. This happened in the evening. Right in the morning I went to

7 Vinko and I told him that some men had come claiming that they were from

8 his unit, and he got really angry, and in his anger, he said, "Now we will

9 go from unit to unit, and you will have to identify these men," because he

10 had already heard the rumours about the looting being carried out in such

11 a way in his name. And I told him, "Come on, don't do it. I don't want

12 to cause any more trouble. Because you would just cause problems for

13 yourself. And what happened happened. Let bygones be bygones".

14 Q. Can you please tell me was it ever determined who these men were?

15 A. Yes. I ended up in the police. They came to see me from the

16 criminal investigations division. Since these men, this group of men that

17 looted the apartment, claiming to the Stela's men, Stelici, they were

18 discovered and I was called to come to the police, not to give a statement

19 but to identify, to try and identify some of these people from

20 photographs. I managed to identify two or three of them but wasn't able

21 to identify all of them and then Franjo, who was in the criminal

22 investigations division, told us that one and the same group perpetrated

23 everything that was it going on in our part of the town. They didn't just

24 loot things from Muslims but from Croats too. They were captured on one

25 of these occasions and this is how it all came out.

Page 14061

1 Q. Did he perhaps tell you the names of these people, the people who

2 were arrested?

3 A. Well, I guess they were their nicknames. One much them was called

4 Slovenac and the other one was called Fadil.

5 Q. Do you know if they were Stela's soldiers? Had this been

6 established?

7 A. No. They were not Stela's soldiers.

8 Q. Fine. Please tell us, you said that you went to see Stela and so

9 on. So do you know where Stela was? What unit he was? Where did you go

10 to see him?

11 A. Well, it was in Kalemova Street. This is where their base was so

12 to speak. That's where the lads were. I knew that I could always find

13 him there if I needed him for anything.

14 Q. Could you please tell me, in the period after that, did anything

15 happen, anything of note? Or was it the same as before? In other words

16 did Stela and his soldiers continue coming there?

17 A. Yes. They continued coming there. We kept in constant contact.

18 There were no problems, and even if there had been any problems, I knew

19 that Stela would try to help me as much as he could.

20 Q. Did you ever see Stela persecute any Muslims or anything? Did you

21 see anything like that in your part of the town?

22 A. No never.

23 Q. Did you hear any rumours that he persecuted Muslims, himself or

24 his soldiers?

25 A. No, I didn't hear any rumours.

Page 14062

1 Q. And around town, was there any talk that Stela or Stelici were

2 persecuting Muslims? Did you have hear such stories?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Or from some other Muslim neighbours, did you hear that he'd

5 helped them?

6 A. Why of course, of course, and praising him and all will praise him

7 always because in that neighbourhood, he was the one who protected it, to

8 all intensive purposes.

9 Q. Can you tell us how he protected? Did he protects by virtue of

10 some powers that he had or in some other way?

11 A. Well, because he was brave, because everybody was afraid of him,

12 he was brave and he would have resisted if -- I'm sure if the situation

13 arose, he would have resisted. He wanted to help us and everybody feared

14 him. So that there were no problems at all.

15 Q. Do you personally think that he helped you and your family and

16 offered you some security?

17 A. Yes, yes, I do.

18 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no further

19 questions, thank you very much.

20 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Cross-examination, Mr. Bos.

21 MR. BOS: Thank you, Your Honours. I may use one exhibit

22 depending on the answers of the witness, so if it could be distributed.

23 Cross-examined by Mr. Bos:

24 Q. Good afternoon, Witness. Witness, you've it testified that you

25 were friends with Vinko Martinovic. How close friends were you? You said

Page 14063

1 that he would sometimes take you to school. Would you sometimes visit his

2 house or would he visit sometimes your house?

3 A. I said we met. I said that we had met, that that was how we met.

4 We knew one another before. But we struck a closer friendship. Yes, he

5 would give me a lift to the school, we'd talk and yes, he would visit me

6 at home, have a coffee, talk, you know, the way one strikes friendships

7 with whoever.

8 Q. And were your parents also friends with the Martinovic family?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Witness, you said that you knew Stela's unit and the members of

11 this unit. Do you know what the name of this unit was where Vinko

12 Martinovic was a member of?

13 A. Mrmak, yeah, I know it was called Mrmak, Vinko Skrobo.

14 Q. And do you know what Vinko's function was within the unit?

15 A. Well, he was something like a commander of those men of his. He

16 led that unit.

17 Q. Now, you've said that you knew many of the other soldiers of his

18 unit as well. Could you give me the names of the persons you knew as

19 well, from this unit? First of all, let me ask you, how many people you

20 think did this unit contain? How many members?

21 A. Well, 40, 50, 40, 50.

22 Q. Would you know all 40 or 50 of them or just some of them?

23 A. I knew some of them. I knew the names of some of them, because

24 they were from my street. But mostly I knew their faces and any way, I

25 remember faces, I don't remember names.

Page 14064

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Page 14065

1 Q. If you say that you would remember faces, is that because you very

2 often visited the units and would you see these soldiers at the unit in

3 Kalemova Street, at the headquarters?

4 A. What do you mean, "Often visited"?

5 Q. Well, you said that you knew some of the soldiers by name and

6 others by face. So my question is when would you see these other members,

7 when you recognised them by face?

8 A. I see. Why, we all came from the same neighbourhood, and on the

9 map, it looks very large but it's not large. It's very small. So that we

10 all come across one another all the time.

11 Q. Okay. Witness, let's move to this incident where these three men

12 entered your apartment. Could you give me the -- do you recall the date

13 when this was?

14 A. No. I do not remember the exact date. It was in 1993. No,

15 thereabouts.

16 Q. Now, I want to clarify something. You've said that these -- there

17 were three men who entered your apartment. And they -- well, and then

18 they took the television or they lined up the television and then when you

19 showed the HVO cards, they left again, correct?

20 A. That's right, yes.

21 Q. And is it correct that these same three men then came back on

22 other occasions to go into other apartments or was it all on the same day

23 and were these the same three men?

24 A. Well, that same day, they went to two other apartments in a

25 building next to me and in a flat beneath my apartment. They spent 45

Page 14066

1 minutes there and they took everything valuable they could find there,

2 from that flat. And after that, they came to our place.

3 Q. So they all did this on one day, and they didn't come back any

4 other day?

5 A. They did come back to our neighbourhood, to our locality, not to

6 those three buildings that we lived in but they came to other buildings,

7 residential buildings, in that locality and some Muslim houses, standing

8 on their own.

9 Q. How do you know that? Did you see that yourself or did you hear

10 that?

11 A. The gentleman, when I went to the CID department in the police, it

12 was the gentleman, the gentleman who was in charge of that case, and who

13 had asked me to come to the police, he told me that. It was a group of

14 people, uniformed, God only knows who they belonged to, whose only

15 objective was to steal, and that group was caught, once when they tried to

16 rob a petrol pump belonging to a Croat. It was then that they were caught

17 and then the police put two and two together, when it came to incidents of

18 that nature.

19 Q. You've testified that you knew two -- you mentioned two names of

20 this group of people who were later caught by the police. And you said

21 that they were not members of Stela's unit. Now, who told you that they

22 were not members of Stela's unit?

23 A. Why, I knew they were not members of Stela's unit.

24 Q. So you're saying because you knew all the members of Stela's unit,

25 you knew that these two people were not members of Stela's unit?

Page 14067

1 A. Could you repeat the question?

2 Q. So you mentioned these two names, which you identified at the

3 police station, and so you're saying that these two persons were not

4 members of Stela's unit because you knew that they were not members of

5 Stela's unit or did somebody else tell you this?

6 A. Now how shall I -- I knew because those two blokes who had those

7 names, they were around town, they were moving about the town, you could

8 hear stories, Slovenac this, Slovenac that, and those were the names that

9 stuck, and I never thought that they were thieves until this thing

10 happened.

11 Q. And this group of people, this was only three men? Or was the

12 group bigger, that was caught by the police?

13 A. It was a larger group.

14 Q. Do you know how many people were caught by the police?

15 A. I can't remember. I was shown photographs in the police but they

16 were photographs of people whom I did not know so I cannot remember how

17 many of them there were.

18 Q. Now, why do you think that these people would use the name of

19 Stela's unit when they came into our apartment?

20 A. I don't know. I don't know why. Perhaps to wash their hands, not

21 to -- and perhaps not to be caught, as they were caught then.

22 MR. BOS: Could the witness be shown Exhibit P556, please? I

23 think.

24 JUDGE CLARK: Mr. Bos, could I ask to you ask the witness a

25 question at this stage. Could this witness recall in any way when it was

Page 14068

1 that she was called into the police station to identify the photographs

2 and was told that the group had been arrested?

3 MR. BOS:

4 Q. Witness, did you hear the question by the Judge? Do you recall

5 when you went to the police station?

6 A. Perhaps, I'm not sure, it could have been, perhaps, some ten or 15

7 days after they had broken in, into my apartment. After they had broken

8 in, perhaps ten or 15 days, I cannot -- I really cannot remember exactly.

9 And it was then that the whole group was caught.

10 JUDGE CLARK: Mr. Bos, could you follow up with the obvious

11 question?

12 MR. BOS: I did try to ask that question but maybe I can ask --

13 Q. Did you try to remember when these people broke into your

14 apartment?

15 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Par?

16 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] I thought Mr. Bos would start with the

17 documents. I wanted to object before, if it's not yet the turn for the

18 document, then I will wait.

19 MR. BOS: Give me one second.

20 Q. So, Witness, could you again try to remember? Because I asked you

21 before and you had difficulties remembering the date, but could you try to

22 remember when it was that these people broke into your apartment?

23 A. I can't. I can't. I can't remember when exactly.

24 Q. Let me help you. Was it after the 9th of May, when the conflict

25 broke out in Mostar, 1993?

Page 14069

1 A. Yes, yes, after the 9th of May. After it. It was during the

2 conflict between the Muslims and the Croats.

3 Q. And was it a few weeks, a few months, after that event or ...

4 A. It could have been a few months later, after the 9th of May. It

5 was 1993. I can't remember when exactly.

6 MR. BOS: I hope this will satisfy the Trial Chamber.

7 Q. I'll come to my exhibit now so I don't know if Mr. Par has any

8 objections?

9 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Par, if you want to make some objections to

10 the using of this document, my advice is wait until it is used.

11 You may proceed.

12 MR. BOS:

13 Q. Witness, did you get a chance of reading this document? And if

14 you didn't, please read the document, please. Have you read it? The

15 other -- the rest is an English translation so you don't have to read any

16 of the other pages. Now, Witness, this is a report of the military police

17 on the centre of Mostar dated August the 3rd, and it reports about the

18 fact that a large share of the crimes committed in Mostar -- well, that

19 the Vinko Skrobo ATG and the Benko Penavic ATG are responsible for a large

20 share of the crimes committed in the Mostar town.

21 My question is: Could it perhaps be the case that these men who

22 entered your apartment, that they used the name of this unit because it

23 was widely known in West Mostar that the Vinko Skrobo unit committed such

24 crimes?

25 A. I don't know. I don't know.

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11 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we will go to the private session, please.

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14 [Open session]

15 JUDGE LIU: During the examination, I think the same map used once

16 by the Defence team, the other by the Prosecution, so the D2/30, as well

17 as P11.18/16 are admitted into evidence under seal.

18 Mr. Par, I think you have something to say about the documents?

19 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] No. I just wanted to tender this map

20 into evidence, if the Prosecution agrees to it, it may be admitted as a

21 Defence Exhibit.

22 MR. BOS: Yes, it doesn't need to have a Prosecution exhibit

23 number. It can remain D2/30.

24 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

25 MR. BOS: The document which I used for this witness has already

Page 14082

1 been admitted. Thank you.

2 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Well, Judge Clark told me that we should

3 trust Mr. Seric's optimism about the proceedings, and I have to offer my

4 congratulations on you because we finished the fifth witness this week,

5 which is a great surprise to me. Anyway, I wish you all a happy weekend

6 and we will meet next Monday, in the afternoon, in Courtroom I. We will

7 rise.

8 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

9 6.56 p.m., to be reconvened on Monday,

10 the 22nd day of July, 2002, at 2.15 p.m.

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