Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 14171

 1                          Tuesday, 23 July 2002

 2                          [Open session]

 3                          [The accused entered court]

 4                         [The accused Naletilic not present]

 5                          [The witness entered court]

 6                          --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

 7            JUDGE LIU:  Call the case, please.

 8            THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is Case Number

 9    IT-98-34-T, the Prosecutor versus Naletilic and Martinovic.

10            JUDGE LIU:  Thank you very much.  I notice that Mr. Naletilic is

11    not present at this moment.  Yes?  Yes, Mr. Krsnik.

12            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour.  I have

13    also noticed this, and I am surprised because I have not been informed of

14    it, although in accordance with your order, that Defence counsel must be

15    informed in case of failure to show up.  However, I will ask Madam

16    Registrar what this is about during the break.  So we need not waste Court

17    time.  We are still waiting for an independent expert report on my client,

18    rather, his state of health, which has not been completed yet.

19            Another thing I wish to request, Your Honour, is to be allowed to

20    go to the registry and look at the list expert doctors so that a truly

21    independent expert can be selected and the expert opinion made.  Thank

22    you.

23            JUDGE LIU:  Well, I believe that Madam Registrar will explain to

24    you during the break about all those matters.  Since we have the witness

25    here, we'll proceed at this moment.

Page 14172

 1            Yes, cross-examination, Mr. Bos.

 2            MR. BOS:  Thank you, Your Honour.  Your Honours, I have some

 3    exhibits which I will use which will be distributed at this moment by the

 4    usher.

 5                          WITNESS:  WITNESS MF [Resumed]

 6                          [Witness answered through interpreter]

 7                          Cross-examined by Mr. Bos:

 8       Q.   Good morning, Witness.

 9       A.   Good morning.

10       Q.   Witness, I will ask you some questions.  It won't take long.  But

11    if you could just bear some moment with me.  And for my first part of the

12    questions, I'd like to go into private session, Your Honours.

13            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, we'll go to the private session, please.

14                          [Private session]

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 7                          [Open session]

 8            MR. BOS:

 9       Q.   Witness, you've testified that you were evicted twice from your

10    apartment, and the first -- on both occasions, I'd like to ask you some

11    questions.  So the first time was on the 9th of May.  Is that correct?

12       A.   Yes.

13       Q.   Now, on that day, how many soldiers entered your apartment?

14       A.   Well, they were men I didn't know.  I didn't know a single one of

15    them.  There were two or three of them, and there were others outside in

16    the street.

17       Q.   Did you recognise their uniforms?

18       A.   No, I didn't.

19       Q.   Now, Witness, you've said that you didn't recognise any one of

20    them.  But isn't it correct that one of these men was a man named Ernest

21    Takac?

22       A.   I don't know.  I didn't see him.

23       Q.   Do you know a man by the name of Ernest Takac?

24       A.   No, I don't.

25       Q.   On this occasion, was -- were any of your family members

Page 14178

 1    mistreated?  Were they kicked or were they beaten, or were you mistreated

 2    in any way?

 3       A.   No, no one was.  I was there with my wife and daughter, and nobody

 4    touched us.

 5       Q.   Witness, were other Muslims from your neighbourhood also evicted

 6    on this day?

 7       A.   Well, I don't know.  Yes, there were some.  What date do you

 8    mean?

 9       Q.   On the 9th of May, on the day that you were evicted.

10       A.   Yes, there were quite a few.

11       Q.   Could you give us an approximate number?

12       A.   Well, I was so upset, I really wouldn't know.  But there were

13    others, yes.

14       Q.   Would it be dozens or hundreds or ...?

15       A.   Who could count them?  I have no idea.  I didn't even know what I

16    was doing.

17       Q.   Now, Witness, you testified that you were expelled to this area,

18    Donja Mahala.  How did they take you there?  Did they take you by a truck

19    or did you have to walk?

20       A.   We had to walk.  It wasn't far, and we walked in a group.  Nobody

21    touched us, but, well, we had to go.

22       Q.   And when you were left off in Donja Mahala, where did you stay in

23    Donja Mahala?

24       A.   In a house, a family house.

25       Q.   And why did you return after 22 days?

Page 14179

 1       A.   I went home.  I wasn't mobilised, so I was able to go back and

 2    nobody had touched anything.

 3       Q.   I think you've already answered my next question, but I'll ask you

 4    again.  When you came back to your apartment, was your apartment still in

 5    the same condition as you left it on the 9th of May?

 6       A.   I found it in exactly the same state it was when I locked it

 7    before leaving.

 8       Q.   So you had locked your apartment when you were expelled on the

 9    9th?

10       A.   Yes, they told me to lock my flat and to keep the key, and that's

11    what happened.  And nobody had entered it.

12       Q.   Witness, let's talk now about the second time you were expelled,

13    which is on the 2nd of July.  Correct?

14       A.   On the 2nd of July, yes, yes.

15       Q.   How many soldiers were involved on this occasion?

16       A.   Well, there were -- who could count them?  I don't know the exact

17    number.  There were soldiers.

18       Q.   Did you recognise any of those soldiers at that time?

19       A.   No.

20       Q.   Let me ask you again:  Was a man named Ernest Takac involved on

21    this occasion?

22       A.   No, he wasn't.  No.

23            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, Mr. Seric.

24            MR. SERIC:  [Interpretation]  Thank you, Mr. President.  We have

25    heard the answer, but since I've risen, the witness has already said he

Page 14180

 1    didn't know Ernest Takac, so the question was superfluous.  However, we

 2    have heard the reply.  Thank you.

 3            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were strangers.

 4            MR. BOS:

 5       Q.   On this occasion, you were taken to the Heliodrom.  Is that

 6    correct?

 7       A.   Yes.

 8       Q.   What happened to your wife and your daughter?

 9       A.   They stayed at home.

10       Q.   Witness, do you know a man named Zijad Kavazovic?

11            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, Mr. Seric.

12            MR. SERIC:  [Interpretation]  I would like to ask the witness to

13    respond aloud, because he just moved his head.

14            JUDGE LIU:  Yes.

15            MR. BOS:

16       Q.   Witness, do you know a man by the name of Zijad Kavazovic?

17       A.   I don't.

18       Q.   Could it be that he was a person who lived in your neighbourhood?

19       A.   I don't know.

20       Q.   Witness, I'm going to show you an exhibit.

21            MR. BOS:  And Your Honours, maybe we should go into private

22    session for this.

23            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, we'll go to the private session, please.

24            Yes, yes.

25            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I hope I haven't risen too fast, but

Page 14181

 1    is that Exhibit 803.03?

 2            MR. BOS:  Yes, it is.

 3            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is a new exhibit,

 4    and I wish to comment on all this.  I think I can comment before the

 5    witness, but if you say that I shouldn't, then the witness could go out.

 6            JUDGE LIU:  Well, could we hear the witness first, then we'll hear

 7    your comments.

 8            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Yes.  Your Honour, but then my

 9    objection would be superfluous because I want to acquaint the Chamber with

10    my doubts about this exhibit, and I wish to be heard.

11            JUDGE LIU:  Yes.  Could we hear it after we hear the witness.

12            We'll go to the private session, please.

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 5                          [Open session]

 6            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, Mr. Meek.

 7            MR. MEEK:  As a matter of principle, Your Honours, this document

 8    speaks -- the contents of the document mentioned my client extensively.

 9    He's not here today.  They claim it's a new document.  We've had, since

10    our Defence case started, a multitude of new documents which we have never

11    received in discovery.  And perhaps the Trial Chamber can determine

12    whether we're going to keep receiving these new documents, quote, unquote,

13    which implicate our client.  And I wonder, Your Honours, why is it we've

14    not received these documents in discovery prior to this time. I think it's

15    improper.  And I object to it.

16            JUDGE LIU:  Well, I haven't noticed that your client's name was

17    mentioned in this document, and thank you for drawing my attention to it.

18    But this issue is involving a general question of law, we'll deal with it

19    after the testimony of this witness.

20            MR. SCOTT:  Mr. President, we can finish the witness, if we're

21    allowed to although I'm not sure if we can frankly because of what I'm

22    about to say.  I very specifically a few moments ago made it clear that I

23    was concerned about the record of Mr. Naletilic not being present today.

24    We were assured that we could proceed without him.  Now, in the last five

25    minutes, his counsel, both of his counsel, both Mr. Krsnik and now

Page 14185

 1    Mr. Meek has indicated that -- has raised a question, how can we talk

 2    about this document when our client is not even here?  Now, we can either

 3    go forward without Mr. Naletilic here, or we can't.  But we can't have it

 4    both ways.  So if they are going to take that position, which they both

 5    now have, then I suggest, Your Honour, request that these proceedings be

 6    recessed until Mr. Naletilic returns, or until we have a written waiver

 7    from him, or until we have a clear indication from Defence counsel that

 8    they are not having it both ways.  It's okay to proceed, but as soon as

 9    there are any questions asked that implicates them, it's not okay.  That's

10    our one response, Your Honour.

11            When the witness is not here, and I do want to respond most

12    vociferously to the statements made about documents in disclosure.  But I

13    don't think we can proceed, Your Honour, on the record, and I object to

14    proceeding, let me make the Prosecution position very clear, I object to

15    proceeding without Mr. Naletilic here based on the statements made by

16    counsel.

17            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, Mr. Krsnik.

18            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I state for the record

19    we can proceed without my client because I go by what I said in the

20    beginning.  It has nothing to do with my client but the manner of work of

21    the Prosecution.  Your Honours, this game which is played by the

22    Prosecution goes on.  We are served documents, shall I speak now, shall we

23    wait for the witness to leave, which have no value at all.  We do not know

24    where they come from, what they are -- and such documents seems to fall

25    from the heaven on the Prosecutor's desk day in, day out.

Page 14186

 1            JUDGE LIU:  I'll give you time to raise your objections.

 2            Mr. Bos, I understand that you have another document which is

 3    also new, that is, P567.3.  Does this document involve Mr. Naletilic?

 4            MR. BOS:  No, Your Honour, it doesn't.

 5            JUDGE LIU:  You may proceed.

 6            MR. BOS:  Are we back in open session?  I think we can move back

 7    in open session.

 8            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, we are in open session.

 9            MR. BOS:

10       Q.   Witness, do you know the name of the unit of which Mr. Vinko

11    Martinovic was a member of?

12       A.   No.

13       Q.   Witness, is it correct that you were imprisoned at the Heliodrom

14    from the 2nd of July to the 20th of August?

15       A.   It is.

16       Q.   Is it correct that it was your testimony yesterday that in that

17    period you were never taken out for labour except on the 20th of August

18    when you got wounded?

19       A.   On the 20th of August, I was taken out.  I said that yesterday,

20    last night.  I was wounded that day.

21       Q.   But listen carefully to what I say:  Were you ever taken out on

22    other occasions during that period for labour?

23       A.   No.

24       Q.   In your detention at the Heliodrom, were there any other Muslims

25    from your direct neighbourhood who were also detained in that period?

Page 14187

 1       A.   Why, the school was full.

 2       Q.   But also with Muslims from your neighbourhood?

 3       A.   Why, yes, there were.

 4       Q.   Witness, let's talk about the 20th of August, 1993.  You've

 5    testified that on that day, you were taken out for labour.  How many

 6    prisoners -- with how many prisoners were you taken out?  Do you recall

 7    that?

 8       A.   All I know is that I was there, and some others, quite a few.

 9       Q.   Could you be a bit more specific if you say "quite a few"?  Could

10    you give an approximate number?

11       A.   Come on, I didn't count them.  How can I know how many of them

12    there were?

13       Q.   Witness, is it correct that you on that day were sent to the

14    Carinski Most?

15       A.   It was that day that I worked, that day I was wounded, too.

16       Q.   And that was at the Carinski Most where you got wounded.  Correct?

17       A.   Right in front of Carinski bridge, a shell fell there.

18       Q.   Witness, is it also correct that you worked for the HVO 1st Light

19    Assault Military Police Battalion on that day?

20       A.   Not true.

21       Q.   For which unit did you have to work, do you recall?

22       A.   I don't know.

23       Q.   Why do you say that it's not true that you worked for the 1st

24    Light Assault if you say that you don't know?

25       A.   Well, I didn't say anything.  What did I say?  I don't know those

Page 14188

 1    military -- nobody told me then where I was going to work.

 2       Q.   Witness, do you recall the name of the soldier who picked you up

 3    on that day from the Heliodrom?

 4       A.   We dared not look up, let alone -- how can I know the name of the

 5    soldier or anything?

 6       Q.   Why not?

 7       A.   Well, I mean, if you don't dare to look up, you could still hear

 8    maybe somebody's name.  It's -- didn't you hear any names of persons who

 9    picked you up?

10       A.   Nothing.  I was not supposed to know anything.  I don't know.

11       Q.   And why didn't you dare to look up?

12       A.   Well, we were not supposed to look or anything.  But I didn't

13    really want to know.

14            MR. BOS:  Could the witness be shown Exhibit P434, please.

15            JUDGE CLARK:  There's not much point showing him anything if he

16    can't read it without his glasses.

17            MR. BOS:  I'll have to read it to him, then, Your Honours.

18       Q.   Witness, I know you don't have your reading glasses on you, so I

19    will have to read out this document to you again.  Witness, this is a list

20    of orders, organised by date, that members of certain battalions picked up

21    prisoners for labour.  Now, if we look in the column which is on the

22    English page number 0046 in the last digits, for the 20th of August, it

23    gives five entries.  Four entries are for the 1st Light Assault Brigade.

24    And one entry is for the ATG Mrmak.  Now, for the entries for the 1st

25    Light Assault Brigade, in the last column, they have indicated the names

Page 14189

 1    of the persons who were put in charge, and these were the persons who

 2    would also pick you up, who would pick up the prisoners.

 3            They have indicated the following names:  Ejo Mandic for the 1st

 4    Light Assault Brigade, Ivan Martinovic for the 1st Light Assault Brigade,

 5    Dinko Knezovic for the ATG Mrmak, again Ejo Mandic for the 1st Light

 6    Assault Brigade, and Meho Gosto for the 1st Light Assault Brigade.  Do any

 7    of these names ring a bell to you?

 8       A.   None of them.

 9       Q.   Witness, the name Ivan Martinovic, the father of Vinko Martinovic

10    is also called Ivan Martinovic, correct?

11       A.   Ivan Martinovic, Mr., he was with me in the civil defence, what?

12    You are asking me --

13       Q.   Yes, let me just ask you, Witness, did you see Mr. Ivan Martinovic

14    on that day?

15            JUDGE LIU:  Yes.

16            MR. SERIC:  [Interpretation]  Mr. President, please, I really do

17    not think this is all right.  The Prosecutor tries to muddle up the

18    witness as if Ivan Martinovic, the father of Vinko Martinovic, took

19    prisoners for labour.  Now really, this is not in order.  I object to this

20    of course.

21            JUDGE LIU:  I think Ivan Martinovic's name appears on this list.

22    I think the Prosecutor is entitled to ask some questions for the

23    clarification of this name.

24            MR. BOS:  Exactly, and that was the main purpose I was doing

25    this.

Page 14190

 1       Q.   Witness, did you see Mr. Ivan Martinovic on that day, on the 20th

 2    of August when you were taken out?

 3       A.   No, no, I didn't.  I didn't see any one of those individuals.

 4            JUDGE LIU:  Yes.

 5            MR. SERIC:  [Interpretation]  Mr. President, I cannot  invent a

 6    description of what the Prosecutor is doing.  He is asking if he saw

 7    Mr. Ivan Martinovic when he was taken that day, taken from where, taken to

 8    where, which Ivan Martinovic?  I really think, I mean, he's consciously

 9    confusing the witness.

10            JUDGE LIU:  Well, we understand there's many people with the same

11    name.  Maybe this is a different person.  I think the witness has answered

12    that question already.

13            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't understand, but no, no, he

14    wasn't taking.  I didn't understand.

15            MR. BOS:

16       Q.   Witness, when you got wounded on that day, did other people get

17    wounded as well, as far as you know?

18       A.   I don't know.  All I saw was that I had been wounded, and I

19    panicked, and then I was taken to the hospital.

20            MR. BOS:  Could the witness be shown Exhibit 567.3, and I'll read

21    it out again to him.

22            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I haven't got my glasses.  Who is

23    going to read it?

24            MR. BOS:

25       Q.   I know, Witness, and I will read out this document to you.

Page 14191

 1    Witness, this is a report from the warden of the central military remand

 2    prison, and it states the following:  "Following the request of 20 August,

 3    1993 by the 1st Light Assault Battalion of the military police, four

 4    detainees were handed over guarded by Meho Gosto.  Upon their return, we

 5    have been informed that six detainees have been wounded such as" and six

 6    names are listed including your name under number 3.  "And on the same

 7    day, -- two detainees were killed" and they list two names.

 8            Witness, it says here that the persons who were picked up, they

 9    were picked up by the name of Meho Gusto, and is it correct that's the

10    same name that was mentioned before in the other document?

11       A.   I know -- I don't know nothing about it.

12       Q.   Just a few more questions about after --

13       A.   I'm too tired.

14       Q.   I'm almost done here, Witness.  Just a few more questions.

15            Is it correct that after you got wounded and got back to Mostar,

16    that you went to the Martinovic family to help you?

17       A.   Yes.

18       Q.   Is it correct that when you went to the Martinovic's, that you

19    spoke both to the father, Ivan Martinovic, and to Vinko Martinovic

20    himself?

21       A.   Yes.

22       Q.   And that wasn't really clear from your testimony yesterday, but

23    was one of the reasons that you approached the Martinovic family the fact

24    that you and your wife were neighbourhood friends of the Martinovic

25    family?

Page 14192

 1       A.   Yes.  Before the war.  We were neighbours, lived next to each

 2    other.

 3       Q.   Now, what --

 4       A.   And still.  We are still neighbours.

 5       Q.   Witness, what kind of protection were you given?  What did you ask

 6    for and what kind of protection did they give you?

 7       A.   First my wife was sick, and I can never forget it, in the war,

 8    that family helped me, Vinko Martinovic first --

 9            JUDGE LIU:  Yes.

10            MR. SERIC:  [Interpretation]  We have heard already a number of

11    details which could disclose the witness's identity, apart from the date

12    which the Prosecutor read, he has also read several names including the

13    name of this witness.  Now we come to a string of details which can show

14    exactly who that is, what went on to the -- what happened to the witness's

15    wife.  So if the Prosecutor intends to proceed, could we then go please

16    into private session.

17            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, we could go to the private session, but we don't

18    see any trace of disclosure of the identity of this witness because we

19    also keep a close watch on the screen.

20            Yes, we'll go to the private session.

21            MR. BOS:  Your Honours, if my learned friends makes an accusation

22    that I mentioned the witness's name I would like to have that corrected

23    because I didn't do that and I don't want to have that reflected in the

24    record.

25            JUDGE LIU:  Witness, I'm sorry to interrupt you.  You may continue

Page 14193

 1    with your answer.

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Page 14194

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12                          [Open session]

13            MR. SERIC:  [Interpretation]  Only one question.

14       Q.   Witness, you mentioned how Vinko had put something on your door.

15    What was it?

16       A.   The name, and Stela put it on the door.  It says that.

17       Q.   And what was that supposed to mean?

18       A.   That he's left me in the flat.

19       Q.   That he was guaranteeing your safety?

20       A.   Yes, yes.

21       Q.   Thank you.

22            MR. SERIC:  [Interpretation]  No further questions.

23            JUDGE LIU:  Any questions from the Judges?  Judge Clark.

24                          Questions by the Court:

25            JUDGE CLARK:  Mr. Witness, I have very few questions for you.  I

Page 14195

 1    know you're nervous, and you said you were tired.  Do you remember on the

 2    9th of May, when the soldiers came to your house, do you remember if you

 3    don't just say you don't remember.  Do you remember approximately when

 4    during the day that was?  Was it the morning, the afternoon, the evening,

 5    or the night?

 6       A.   It was in the morning.

 7            JUDGE CLARK:  Now that you remember that it was in the morning,

 8    was it early in the morning or had the morning well developed, like now,

 9    9.30, 10.00, or was it earlier than that?

10       A.   I never looked at my watch, but it was morning.  Now when ...

11            JUDGE CLARK:  That's fair enough.  I know it's a long time ago.

12    The other thing I wanted to ask you about is when you were taken to the

13    Heliodrom, were you very upset and very nervous, which would be

14    understandable, of course?

15       A.   Why yes, yes.

16            JUDGE CLARK:  Do you think that's why you weren't asked to go out

17    and work, or was there any other reason?

18       A.   Well, in the beginning, they did not take people out.  I went out

19    only once.  I don't know.

20            JUDGE CLARK:  Well, in the room that you were in, I think you said

21    it was the classroom, were there any days in which some of your friends

22    and colleagues were taken out, and you were left behind?  Or are you

23    saying that nobody was taken out until the day you were taken on the 20th

24    of August?

25       A.   It was before.  They took out people for work every day, and it

Page 14196

 1    was just kind of a lot.

 2            JUDGE CLARK:  So your unlucky number didn't come up until the

 3    20th of August.  Is that what you're saying?    A.   Yes, yes.  That was

 4    the only day that I worked.

 5            JUDGE CLARK:  Thank you for answering my questions.  And we

 6    appreciate your being here.  It's not easy.

 7            JUDGE LIU:  Any questions out of Judges' questions?

 8            Thank you.

 9            MR. BOS:  No, Your Honour.

10            JUDGE LIU:  Witness, thank you very much for coming to give your

11    evidence.  We appreciate your evidence very much.  The usher will show you

12    out of the room.  We all wish you a pleasant journey back home.

13            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14                          [The witness withdrew]

15            JUDGE LIU:  Well, Mr. Krsnik, now is the time for you to explain

16    to us about your doubts on this document, P803.03.

17            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  However, I

18    feel as if I were playing Russian roulette.  This is not something --

19    thank you.

20            This is really like Russian roulette.  Now things have turned out

21    well, by "well," I mean the witness himself has stated that what is stated

22    here is not true.  However, had not the witness been here to deny this,

23    the Prosecution would have waived this document about, claiming it to be

24    true.  There are three essential questions here:  The first is that this

25    document was produced by AID, at least that's what it says in the

Page 14197

 1    heading.  This is a secret Muslim terrorist organisation now being

 2    investigated in Sarajevo.  I have documents which are now being

 3    translated, and I will hand them over to the Court.  This is an

 4    investigation against the director of AID, his deputy, and his second

 5    assistant.

 6            I have the whole file of the investigation, and the OTP also has

 7    it, but it keeping quiet about it.  They have been accused of terrorism,

 8    of political assassinations, forging documents, and all this is being

 9    investigated by the Supreme Court of Bosnia and Herzegovina.  They were

10    arrested by SFOR.  Their secret training camp was surrounded because it

11    was under the auspices of the Iranian secret service and al Qaeda.  These

12    were typical products of theirs.  The Prosecutor says that the source is

13    the government of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  Your Honours, you still do not have

14    my submission because I am now having translated voluminous documentation,

15    which I will attach.  You said that the two sides could express their

16    stand points on the government of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and I will provide

17    my submission about this.  I now simply wish to say that a government of

18    Bosnia-Herzegovina does not exist.  This place is no kindergarten.  It's

19    an international court.  We cannot play cat and mouse here like little

20    children.  The government of Bosnia-Herzegovina does not exist, and this

21    is a well-known fact.

22            Thirdly, Your Honour, this sort of statement, even were it true,

23    the jurisdiction of Bosnia-Herzegovina, of Croatia, of Serbia, of

24    Yugoslavia, the Former Yugoslavia, would say that it cannot be used in

25    court proceedings.  It would be banned, forbidden by law.  No police

Page 14198

 1    record or intelligence record may be used at a trial in court proceedings,

 2    either as evidence or least of all as grounds for a judgement.

 3            What is this about, Your Honours?  The gentlemen from the OTP,

 4    seeing the strength of their evidence and their witnesses, are trying

 5    through the back door through a witness like this to say, yes, yes, we

 6    have a question here about Stela, and then they submit a statement which

 7    contains some mention of Stela, plus five pages about my client.  And in

 8    this way, the Prosecution is piling up documents for you to read.  And

 9    they are fulfilling their aim.  Why didn't they bring Zijad Kavazovic as

10    an OTP witness here, if he exists at all?  I no longer believe anything,

11    least of all the good faith of my learned friends from the OTP.  I don't

12    know if this Zijad Kavazovic exists even, it would be interesting to find

13    out.  And I hope, Your Honours, that God will help me and that somebody

14    from AID will finally come here to testify, someone whose conscience will

15    prompt them to tell Your Honours what was really happening behind the

16    scenes.  Thank you.

17            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, Mr. Scott.

18            MR. SCOTT:  Mr. President, I promise to be shorter and less

19    emotional than Mr. Krsnik.

20            In terms of the document, sir, the document that Mr. Bos used was

21    used for two purposes, both of which I believe are completely proper in

22    our submission.  It was used in an attempt -- it may have failed, but

23    that's not the standard.  But it was a reasonable and fair attempt to

24    refresh the witness's recollection.  It is indeed true that many of these

25    events happened a long time ago.  It is often the case, has often been the

Page 14199

 1    case in this trial, that when a witness is shown documents, they recall

 2    things they didn't initially recall.  They may not recall something in the

 3    first document, it may take the second or a third document.  But

 4    eventually they may remember.  And the Prosecution is entitled to both

 5    probe, is intended to both probe and not necessarily take the first

 6    witness given -- the first answer given by the witness.  The Prosecution

 7    is intended to ask questions several times, if it seems perhaps necessary,

 8    and with some of these witnesses, it is, either because of their memory or

 9    their demeanour or their concern about being in the courtroom.  And the

10    Prosecution is also entitled to try to refresh witness's recollections.

11    It may ultimately fail or succeed.  That is not the point.  We are

12    entitled to try.

13            What Mr. Bos did was entirely in my respectfully submission

14    entirely proper.  It was also offered to the Chamber to show the basis for

15    counsel's questions.  There have been a number of occasions, even in the

16    past few weeks, where both Defence teams have gotten on their feet very

17    vociferously protesting about the basis of the questions of the

18    Prosecution.  Mr. Bos was very transparent in showing everyone in the

19    courtroom the basis for the question that was put.  And in my respectful

20    submission, Mr. Bos behaved properly in every respect.

21            We, of course, could not disagree more with counsel's allegations

22    about AID and his statements about the Bosnia -- excuse me, the federation

23    government of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and I told you now I will not belabour

24    that except to say that we could not disagree more.  And I think counsel

25    should be very careful in the allegations he makes about terrorist

Page 14200

 1    organisations.

 2            In terms of documentation, sir, Mr. President, Your Honours, we do

 3    look for documents when witnesses come to testify.  If a witness comes to

 4    testify, the Prosecution investigates our available documentation.  And

 5    indeed, if we find the document that relates to a particular witness or

 6    part of their testimony, something that they have put in issue by their

 7    direct examination, then of course, of course, the Prosecution will seek

 8    to use it.  And we will continue to seek to use it, and there may be new

 9    documents every day.  There may be new documents every day.  If counsel

10    brings witnesses here, we have the right to cross-examine.  We don't have

11    any discovery from the Defence.  We have no prior statements.  We get

12    nothing.  We get nothing, Mr. President.  When we hear the direct

13    examination and we investigate what we may have, the information that may

14    be available to the OTP about a witness, then we may use it, and if we

15    deem it proper, we will use, subject to the Court's guidance.  So to

16    answer counsel's questions, yes, they are new documents.  There may be new

17    documents every day.  There's probably going to be new documents later

18    today, and there's probably going to be new documents tomorrow.  And that

19    is the way, respectfully, Mr. President, the process works.  Thank you.

20            JUDGE LIU:  Mr. Krsnik, we are not debating this issue, you know.

21    We could spend a whole day here.  I understand the views from the both

22    parties.  I give you one minute.

23            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  May we go

24    into private session, please.  Because I wish to inform the Chamber about

25    some other matters.  I was not going to bring up now, but the Prosecutor

Page 14201

 1    has prompted me to do so.  So I request that we go into private session.

 2            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, we'll go to the private session, but you have to

 3    be very brief.

 4                          [Private session]

 5  [redacted]

 6  [redacted]

 7  [redacted]

 8  [redacted]

 9  [redacted]

10  [redacted]

11  [redacted]

12  [redacted]

13  [redacted]

14  [redacted]

15  [redacted]

16  [redacted]

17  [redacted]

18  [redacted]

19  [redacted]

20  [redacted]

21  [redacted]

22  [redacted]

23  [redacted]

24  [redacted]

25  [redacted].

Page 14202

 1  [redacted]

 2  [redacted]

 3                          [Open session]

 4            JUDGE LIU:  Mr. Seric, I think I have to hear your view on this

 5    document since this witness is your witness.

 6            MR. SERIC:  [Interpretation]  Thank you very much, Your Honour,

 7    for giving me leave to speak.  The Defence has no documents to tender, but

 8    we have not yet heard from the Prosecution whether they wish to tender

 9    this document.  If they do not intend to tender it, I have nothing to

10    say.  If they do, then I will have something to say.  Thank you.

11            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, Mr. Bos.

12            MR. BOS:  We do not intend to tender this document, Your Honours.

13    The only three exhibits which I intend to tender are the map, 11.18/17,

14    the map as marked.  And furthermore, Exhibit P56.3.  And that will be an

15    exhibit under seal, because it refers to the witness's name.  Exhibit P434

16    is already admitted.

17            JUDGE LIU:  Thank you very much.

18            Mr. Seric.  I think there should be no objections concerning that

19    map, that is P11.18/17, which was marked and under seal.  Am I right?

20            MR. SERIC:  [Interpretation]  You are right, Your Honour.  And I

21    will go further:  I have no objection to the documents the Prosecution is

22    tendering, and I have no further comment to add.

23            JUDGE LIU:  How about that document, P567.3?  No objections?

24            MR. SERIC:  [Interpretation]  No, Your Honour.

25            JUDGE LIU:  Thank you very much.

Page 14203

 1            MR. SERIC:  [Interpretation]  It simply establishes --

 2            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, Mr. Meek.

 3            MR. MEEK:  The accused Naletilic would object to the introduction

 4    of 567.3 on the basis that this witness knew nothing about this document,

 5    absolutely nothing about this document.  567.3 is being offered; 703.03 is

 6    not being offered.  This witness was shown the document and knew nothing

 7    about the document.  That's tantamount to not showing the document to the

 8    witness at all and then asking that the document be tendered into

 9    evidence. Mr. Seric doesn't object but we do object on that grounds.  No

10    foundation, no indicia of reliability. And even though the Prosecutor did

11    not ask that 803.03 be admitted, give me 30 seconds, Your Honours, if, in

12    fact, the Prosecutor wanted to refresh the recollection of this witness,

13    this witness first told the Prosecutor "I cannot read, I don't have my

14    reading glasses."  He could have, as Judge Clark said, synopsised one

15    paragraph on page 4, that's all he asked the witness about.  That's all he

16    wanted to ask the witness about.  But the Prosecution it appears has a

17    paragraph poisoning the well by putting a five, six-page English document

18    full of insinuations about Mr. Naletilic in front of this Trial Chamber

19    and then only asking about one paragraph which does not mention

20    Mr. Naletilic.  I think this practice is improper, and I think the Trial

21    Chamber should ask the Prosecutor to cease this practice.  Thank you.

22            JUDGE LIU:  Thank you.  As for the document P567.3, although the

23    witness did not recognise that document, by his testimony corresponded to

24    the contents of that document.  Secondly, Mr. Seric has no objections to

25    the admission of this document, and this is a witness for Mr. Seric.  This

Page 14204

 1    document does not mention at all Mr. Naletilic's name.  So this document

 2    is admitted.

 3            Well, I think we'll have our break.  And during the break, I'll

 4    instruct Madam Registrar to make sure the waiver of Mr. Naletilic for our

 5    continued sitting on this case.  We'll rise until 5 minutes to 11.00.

 6                          --- Recess taken at 10.22 a.m.

 7                          --- On resuming at 10.56 a.m.

 8            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, Mr. Par.

 9            MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.  Our witness

10    is here, but before he comes in, could I have a minute, please.  It has to

11    do with these maps.  Perhaps you have noticed that several witnesses have

12    complained, said that these Mostar plans were not accurate.  And when they

13    marked the localities they lived in, a number of witnesses said that names

14    were not correct.  We consulted our client, and he told us that the

15    witnesses' objections were correct and requested that we stop using such

16    an inaccurate plan.  Why?  Our witnesses says that the name of localities

17    such as, Djikovina, Panjevina are marked erroneously so that the witnesses

18    get confused. For instance, where it says Djikovina should be Ilici,

19      because Djikovina is a bit lower. Where it says Panjevina that is where

20    Djikovina should be.  And what happens is that when a witness knows that a

21    house, for instance, is in Djikovina, the witness sees how the map says

22    Djikovina, and marks it there, although Djikovina is erroneously indicated

23    in the map.  So we do not know.  This has not caused by particular problem

24    for our Defence because one is more or less clear where the houses are

25    located which they pointed at.  However, these maps create a certain

Page 14205

 1    confusion and are inaccurate, and they could be challenged at some point.

 2            I looked at these maps which we were given by the OTP, and I have

 3    not seen a single map without such mistakes.  Why do we address the

 4    Court?  I want to ask whether the Prosecutor has an accurate map so that

 5    we could use that one.  Now, we shall have a witness to whom I'd like to

 6    show the map, but in this situation, I just wonder, would it perhaps be

 7    better for me not to show him the map and have him describe certain

 8    locations are, or if I have to have this map, then I'll have to clarify

 9    these inaccuracies with him.  Now, if OTP has another map, could we then

10    have it, and could the Court please instruct me, should I examine the

11    witness without a map or try to clear the inaccuracies up with him?

12            JUDGE LIU:  Thank you very much, Mr. Par, to bring up this issue.

13    Of course, we would like to use a map as accurate as possible, if they are

14    available.  And secondly, I believe that using this map is just an

15    indication.  We cannot only rely on the marks made by the witness on those

16    maps.  We also have to refer to the testimony of this witness according to

17    the transcript at a later stage.  So I believe that these maps can only

18    give us a rough idea of the locations, not the exact places where he

19    lives.  So you may continue  using these maps and see how far we go with

20    these maps.  If not, we just give this effort up.

21            Yes, could we have the next witness.  Mr. Usher, would you please

22    bring the witness.

23                          [The witness entered court]

24            JUDGE LIU:  Good morning, Witness.

25            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

Page 14206

 1            JUDGE LIU:  Would you please make the solemn declaration, please.

 2            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

 3    the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 4            JUDGE LIU:  Thank you.  You may sit down, please.

 5            Yes, Mr. Par.

 6            MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

 7                          WITNESS:  WITNESS MG

 8                          [Witness answered through interpreter]

 9                          Examined by Mr. Par:

10       Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness.  Before we begin, I'd like

11    to tell you that the Court has granted you protective measures, that is,

12    voice and face distortion, and alias, and we shall go into private session

13    when we discuss some personal matters so that nothing will get out of this

14    courtroom.  But before we begin, you'll be shown a sheet of paper with

15    your name on it.

16            MR. PAR: [Interpretation] So could the usher please give the

17    witness this sheet of paper.

18       Q.   If your name is accurately written, then you will just say "yes"

19    without saying your name aloud, and then we'll proceed.

20       A.   Yes, it is.

21       Q.   Thank you.  During our conversation, we shall do our best to speak

22    slowly.  If you can, please, pay attention to this microphone.  When you

23    see that the red light is off, that will mean that I've switched off, and

24    then you can start answering slowly so the interpreters can keep up.

25            MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we go into private

Page 14207

 1    session for a series of questions which have to do with the witness's

 2    identity.

 3            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, we'll go to the private session, please.

 4                          [Private session]

 5  [redacted]

 6  [redacted]

 7  [redacted]

 8  [redacted]

 9  [redacted]

10  [redacted]

11  [redacted]

12  [redacted]

13  [redacted]

14  [redacted]

15  [redacted]

16  [redacted]

17  [redacted]

18  [redacted]

19  [redacted]

20  [redacted]

21  [redacted]

22  [redacted]

23  [redacted]

24  [redacted]

25  [redacted]

Page 14208













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Page 14209













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Page 14210

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 3  [redacted]

 4  [redacted]

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 6  [redacted]

 7  [redacted]

 8  [redacted]

 9  [redacted]

10  [redacted]

11  [redacted]

12                          [Open session]

13            MR. PAR: [Interpretation]

14       Q.   Witness, we shall begin with the period of the Serb aggression

15    against Mostar.  But before that, tell me, did you spend -- were you in

16    Mostar during the war?  Have you been in Mostar all the time until this

17    day?

18       A.   Yes, I was in Mostar all the time.

19       Q.   The Serb aggression, what happened to you then?  Were you

20    militarily involved, just briefly what did you do during that time?

21       A.   No, I was not involved in the army because I was relieved of the

22    military duty even in the Yugoslav People's Army.

23       Q.   But what did you do during that time, what kind of duties did you

24    have?

25       A.   I repaired radio stations, Motorolas and whatever for all the

Page 14211

 1    units.

 2       Q.   How did you do it?  Did you go to these units, or did they come to

 3    your workshop or your home?  Can you tell us just how it happened?

 4       A.   Well, at times, I would go out, but it was always in Mostar.

 5       Q.   And what is it that you had to repair, what kind of equipment was

 6    it?  Just as an example.

 7       A.   Radio stations which would be captured during the Serb aggression,

 8    and I changed the frequencies.

 9       Q.   So your job wasn't of a military character; you were not

10    militarily engaged.  You were a civilian who provided this kind of service

11    to different units.  Is that correct?

12       A.   It is.

13       Q.   Did you know Vinko Martinovic, Stela, at the time?

14       A.   I knew him from before.

15       Q.   Can you say how did you know him, on what terms were you with him?

16       A.   Balinovac was a centre where the young people used to get together

17    before the conflict, and that is how we came to know one another.  We come

18    from this very small area.

19       Q.   Now, at the time of the Serb aggression, was Stela militarily

20    engaged?  Was he a member of any military unit?

21       A.   He was in the HOS.

22       Q.   Did you also do these repairs for his unit, for HOS?  Did you go

23    to him, or would he perhaps bring some of these appliances to you?  Did

24    you at that time have that kind of regular contact with him?

25       A.   Yes, I volunteered and placed myself at the disposal.

Page 14212

 1       Q.   This was the time of the Serb aggression, liberation from the

 2    Serbs, and shortly a conflict between Muslims and Croats broke out.  Do

 3    you remember the day when the conflict started in Mostar?  What day was

 4    it, and tell us, perhaps, how did you see the day?  What happened to you

 5    that day?

 6       A.   On the 9th of May, 1993, the gunfire started around 4.00, or half

 7    past, early, at daybreak.  I was at home with my family.  And I spent

 8    there the whole day at a loss.  I didn't know what was going on.  I

 9    thought that the troops were firing between themselves, and I was not with

10    the military.  And the media was saying that the HVO should be placed

11    under the command of the TO of the BH army, and in Bosnia, the HVO under

12    the command of the army, of the Armija.  And I thought that that was some

13    kind of conflict between them.  It would be over in no time.

14       Q.   Now, if I understood you right, you spent the day with your family

15    in your flat.  Did anyone come to your door that day, any soldier?  Did

16    anyone come to try to evict you?  Did anything like that happen that day?

17       A.   No, not that day.  The next day, yes.

18       Q.   Right.  But was anyone evict anyone else in your building, or is

19    it that nothing happened to anyone that day?

20       A.   In my building and around me, nothing happened that day.

21       Q.   You mentioned that something began to happen the next day, so tell

22    us what was it, the next day, on the 10th of May, what came to pass?

23       A.   The next day, they came and requested to see our IDs and took the

24    Muslims, Bosniaks, out, and then made us walk into a column and walk

25    towards the stadium, towards the pitch.

Page 14213

 1       Q.   Who was that?  Do you know which troops were they?  What was the

 2    unit?  How did they take you out?  What did they tell you?  How did they

 3    take you to this pitch?  Whom did they take there?

 4       A.   All the Bosniak families.  I didn't know who were those troops.

 5    And I was walking by myself at the head of the column thinking if there's

 6    anything from Mostar, they will recognise me and turn me back, and that is

 7    what happened some 200 metres later by Milicevic, his troops.  Two or

 8    three vehicles came up, they stopped us.  And we talked with these troops

 9    and I said that I was their member and I was turned back.  Which was not

10    true because I wasn't.  But that is what he said so that my wife and my

11    children and I were sent back.

12       Q.   You said you didn't know who those soldiers were, and at the same

13    time you said that "I was at the head of the column thinking that somebody

14    from Mostar would turn up."  Does that mean that this unit that came to

15    your place was not from Mostar?  Do you know where they came from?

16       A.   Later on, I mean, when I returned, Baja came to see me and said

17    that they were from Livno because in Mostar, about 70 per cent of the

18    population know me.

19       Q.   Right.  Now, Baja Milicevic turned up, and he knows you, took you

20    out of the column, told them that you were his soldier, and you turned you

21    back to your flat.  Did others return home, or were you the only one who

22    returned to his flat in that building?

23       A.   The others were taken towards the pitch, towards the playground,

24    play field.

25       Q.   We'll come back to those who were taken away.  But that day, when

Page 14214

 1    you returned, when you returned, did anything else of significance happen

 2    to you, or was that all as far as your family was concerned?

 3       A.   Within one hour or an hour and a half, I can be quite accurate,

 4    Vinko Martinovic Stela came because Baja had told him what had happened to

 5    me, and said that if travel troops came up to tell them that I was his

 6    soldier.  So that meant I got tremendous support, and after that I was not

 7    too afraid any more.

 8       Q.   So Vinko Martinovic came to you on his own, after he had heard it

 9    from Baja, or did you call him?

10       A.   No, Baja must have told him, or somebody else whom he had met

11    because I did not leave the apartment.

12       Q.   Now, let us go back a little to the -- to your neighbours who were

13    taken towards that play field.  Did they ever return to your building, or

14    was it that they left and never came back?  Did those who were taken away

15    on the 10th of May, were they -- did they come back?

16       A.   They spent at the Heliodrom, seven to ten days.  That is what

17    they told me.  They all came back, and they were all together in the

18    building.  And then it was on a voluntary basis, that is, at the level of

19    the town, it was -- the buses were organised.  Who wants to go to the east

20    side?  Who wants to go abroad?  Who wants to say?  So some opted for

21    moving over to the east side, others for being abroad, and some stayed.  I

22    stayed because I was not a soldier, and I enjoyed this protection, and I

23    was not afraid.

24       Q.   Let us clear this up.  So those same families that were taken to

25    the stadium, returned a few days later back to their flats, to this

Page 14215

 1    building, had their flats been looted?  Had they been burgled or did they

 2    find the flats in the same shape they left them?

 3       A.   At the time the flats were locked and nobody had taken anything.

 4       Q.   Now, a little bit about this organisation.  You say that after

 5    that, people started leaving in an organised manner.  Was it truly

 6    organised, meaning that one could leave of his own will, that people were

 7    given a choice, I want to go to the east side, want to go abroad, or do

 8    you want to stay?  Or was it under duress?

 9       A.   It was all on a voluntary basis.

10       Q.   So some boarded buses or on foot, or did they all go at the same

11    time?  Or did first those who wanted to go abroad leave, and then those to

12    the east side?  How long did it last?  Was it one day or longer?  How was

13    it all?

14       A.   During -- in the course of a week, for two days.

15       Q.   Did the majority leave?

16       A.   Everybody from our building went, and from those small other

17    buildings, small houses which looked like sheds, they stayed, and they are

18    still there.

19       Q.   How is it that you did not leave?  How did your family decide?

20    Because you say that you were offered a choice.  Why did you decide "we

21    shall stay"?

22       A.   Well, I'm an electrician, a repairman.  And all I'm interested in

23    is that particular trade because I'm not a soldier, never served any army,

24    I thought that nobody could hold me responsible for anything.  And I

25    simply thought that, no, that it was not necessary for me to go.  And

Page 14216

 1    because Stela was there.

 2       Q.   What do you mean "Stela" rules here?  Is it because his unit is

 3    there where you say "Stela ruled there"?  What does it mean, does it have

 4    some authority or what?

 5       A.   My house and his house are all within 300 metres diameter as the

 6    crow flies so that one of his folk would always be passing through.  And

 7    this sector that he held, the front line that he held, everybody knew

 8    whose it was.

 9       Q.   You wished to say, then, that his unit was stationed in that area,

10    and that that unit was connected to that part of town as other units were

11    connected to other parts of town.  Is this the explanation?

12       A.   Yes, that's the explanation.

13       Q.   Very well.  So here is Stela, whom you know, his unit.  You decide

14    to stay because Stela is here.  Why did you base your security on this?

15    How did you believe that Stela could help you, or that he wouldn't harm

16    you?  Did you talk to him?  Why do you say that you felt you could stay

17    because you felt safe because of Stela?

18       A.   I knew Stela from before, and I trusted him.  When he said

19    something, when he said "stay, no one will touch you," you can come to me

20    if you have any problems, then I knew there would be no problems.

21       Q.   Did you have any problems in fact?  Did anyone ever come to your

22    door?  Were there any attempts to evict you?  Were there such situations?

23       A.   Yes, on two occasions.  And Vinko Martinovic, Stela, saw this

24    himself because he was in my flat with me.

25       Q.   You say this happened on two occasions.  Can you tell us about the

Page 14217

 1    first of these, tell us what happened.  When was the first time someone

 2    came to your door to bother you or whatever they did?

 3       A.   A few days later, four soldiers came to evict the Muslims who were

 4    left.  Mladen Bojcic, a neighbour of mine sent his son to Stela's

 5    headquarters. The boy went there with his bike.  Stela returned and

 6    surrounded the building with his men.  He asked me where the soldiers

 7    were.  He and his men came in and took these four soldiers prisoner and

 8    took them off to his headquarters.  On the following day, when I went to

 9    the headquarters, I learned that they had been handed over to the military

10    police and would probably be punished.

11       Q.   Just a few more details about this event.  Can you tell us the

12    approximate date?

13       A.   It was between the 15th and the 17th, about ten days later.

14       Q.   15th or 17th of May, 1993.  How many soldiers were there?  Were

15    they a unit or a group?  What did they say?

16       A.   The soldiers were all wearing military uniforms.  I didn't dare go

17    out, so I couldn't see who they were.

18       Q.   So if I understood you correctly, a neighbour of yours sent his

19    son to fetch Stela.  So it wasn't you, but another neighbour who sent his

20    son.  Do you know if that neighbour had any special relations with Stela?

21    Was he a friend of Stela's?  And what was he by ethnicity this neighbour

22    who sent his son to fetch Stela?

23  [redacted]

24  [redacted]  he knew Stela from before because he had lived there for

25    50 years.  He knew that Stela was a friend of mine and would protect me,

Page 14218

 1    which is why he sent his son to fetch him.

 2       Q.   How much time elapsed from the time these soldiers turned up to

 3    the time Stela and his men arrived and took them prisoner?

 4       A.   About ten minutes.

 5       Q.   After that, were they all taken back to their homes?  What did

 6    this mean for your whole building and you personally when you saw the fast

 7    intervention, the speedy reaction?

 8       A.   Well, everybody thanked me, and they thanked Stela, although they

 9    didn't know him.  But they told me to say thank you to him.

10       Q.   You say that these men were arrested, and that you heard they

11    would be handed over to the military police and would be punished.  Where

12    did you get this information, when, and from whom?

13       A.   On the following day, I went to the headquarters to do something,

14    and I met three or four prisoners whom I knew well.  On completing my job,

15    I sat down with them and chatted because I was allowed to do that, as were

16    the others.  And they told me this, that the day before, four men had been

17    handed over to the military police.

18       Q.   Talking about your going to the headquarters, can you tell us

19    throughout this period, how did it come about that you used to go to

20    Stela's headquarters, and did you go to the headquarters of other units?

21    Did you continue to work on repairing equipment just as you did before the

22    war?  Why did you go to the headquarters, on what basis?

23       A.   I asked to go there, even if only to sit there, because I wanted

24    them to know that I was attached to a unit, so I would not be evicted by

25    others who came along because Vinko Martinovic, Stela, did not have a

Page 14219

 1    stamp, so he sent me to Baja, which is a hundred metres further on from

 2    Rondo.  He sent me there, and they gave me a piece of paper saying that I

 3    was a member of that unit so that I could move around freely.

 4       Q.   As far as I understand, you talked to Stela and asked him to give

 5    you a document which would enable you to move around, and you were issued

 6    by a document not by Stela, but by Baja Milicevic.  What sort of document

 7    was it?  Did he really receive you into his unit?  What did that document

 8    say and what could you use it for?

 9       A.   It was the sort of document carried by all soldiers.  It said that

10    I was one of his men, a soldier, and I could show it to the military

11    police and other units to move around freely.  And if there was a job for

12    me to do, I was under an obligation to report and to perform the job.  So

13    I went to the unit every day.

14       Q.   So it was a situation similar to that during the Serbian

15    aggression, you were a civilian, you had this document so that you could

16    move around.  Were you issued with a uniform?

17       A.   On three occasions on the way from my house to the Rondo, on

18    Bakamluk the military police arrested me and took me to the faculty, and I

19    told them I was going to Rondo to the base.  And every time, Baja came

20    along to get me released, and after that they gave me a uniform, and then

21    I had no problems.

22       Q.   So you were given a uniform in order to avoid being arrested as a

23    civilian and so on.  Were you issued with weapons?

24       A.   No.  Throughout the war, I did not have any weapons at all.

25       Q.   You said a while ago that there was a second event when someone

Page 14220












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Page 14221

 1    came to your door.  You have told us about one event; now will you tell us

 2    about the other one.  When did it happen and what happened?

 3       A.   Some 20 or 25 days later - excuse me - from the beginning, every

 4    day, Vinko Martinovic would come and see me in the afternoon or in the

 5    late afternoon to see that I was all right because there were criminals

 6    around looting.  So he would come to check on me, to see that I was all

 7    right.  Some 20 or 25 days later, he dropped in with his wife.  My wife

 8    made coffee, and we were just drinking coffee when four soldiers arrived

 9    at my door to evict me under orders from Vinko Martinovic, Stela.  I told

10    them that I was a soldier of Stela's and that I could not leave my flat

11    without his permission, and they laughed at that.  And then I went into my

12    living room to talk to Stela, and two of them followed me in.  And I

13    said:  "Men, let me introduce you to Vinko Martinovic, Stela, my

14    commander."  And they turn around and fled.  I never saw any of them

15    again.  And I assume neither did he.

16       Q.   How many of them were there, and did you recognise any of them?

17    Did you recognise the unit?  Did you notice any identifying features?

18       A.   I never saw them again, and as far as I can remember, they wore no

19    insignia, only camouflage uniforms.  There were four of them.

20       Q.   So you said that they introduced themselves as coming on Stela's

21    orders.  When they entered your home, did they see Vinko Martinovic,

22    Stela, himself there?  Were they able to see him physically when they

23    entered your flat?

24       A.   Yes, they stood in front of him.

25       Q.   Was it then that they fled?  Did they recognise him and flee, or

Page 14222

 1    did they not know him at all?

 2       A.   They didn't know him at all.

 3       Q.   And they fled only when you told them who he was?  Is that

 4    correct?

 5       A.   Yes.

 6       Q.   Was this the only time you saw someone falsely introducing

 7    themselves as a member of Stela's unit and acting on Stela's orders?  Did

 8    you have any other personal experiences where you heard or saw that there

 9    were such impersonations, not only in your flat but anywhere outside on

10    the street, in the neighbourhood?

11       A.   Yes, there were many such cases that I heard about.  And I

12    personally witnessed one such event.  May I describe it?

13            I was in Stela's headquarters with the prisoners, and there was a

14    meeting going on upstairs.  He was having a meeting with his soldiers

15    which went on for an hour or an hour and a half.  And then a woman with

16    two children arrived and she asked me is this the military police?  And I

17    said madam, what do you want?  And she said:  "Stela, Vrada and somebody

18    else have evicted me."  And I said when?  And she said a quarter of an

19    hour ago.  I kept waiting there for 45 minutes until the meeting ended.

20    And then I went to Stela and I asked him what was going on.  And he told

21    me.  And he told me I should bring her to him.  And he asked the women

22    and she told him and told him everything that happen.  And he gave her his

23    hand and he said,"Let me introduce myself. I am Vinko Martinovic. Am I the

24    one who evicted you?" And she said no. He said was it one of my men and

25    she said no, and then he said do you have a place where you can spend the

Page 14223

 1    night?  And she said that she had a sister who was married to a Croat.  He

 2    ordered four of his soldiers to take that woman there, and put her up with

 3    her sister and then to go back to her flat and wait for the men who

 4    evicted her.  He assumed the men would be back to loot the place.  And

 5    they did come back.  He took those four soldiers prisoner that night.  I

 6    was in the headquarters until 3.00 or 4.00.  On the following day I heard

 7    from the prisoners who saw all this, and they thought they were from the

 8    Sinj Battalion, and I heard later on that these men were sentenced to a

 9    month in prison each.

10       Q.   When was this approximately?

11       A.   This was three or four months after the conflict.

12       Q.   This woman spoke to you personally.  Do you know what her name

13    is?  Do you know what she is by ethnicity?  What part of town she was

14    from?  What did she tell you?

15       A.   She is a Muslim.  And she was from the area near the car

16    association.

17       Q.   She said that she had been evicted by Stela and some of his

18    soldiers and she mentioned who the soldiers were.  When Stela came out,

19    did he try to establish with her whether any of the soldiers were actually

20    his men?

21       A.   She mentioned the soldiers by name.  He brought all his men before

22    her, because they had just been at a meeting so they were all there.  He

23    showed her the soldiers and told her their names, and she confirmed that

24    it was not one of them.  And then he asked if it was any of the others,

25    the other soldiers.  And the woman's answer was it was not.

Page 14224

 1       Q.   Very well.  Not to repeat all this, he sent his men to her flat to

 2    wait in ambush for these four.  They were arrested and handed over to the

 3    military police.  Did that woman ever go back to her flat with her

 4    children?  Do you know that?

 5       A.   Yes, I do.  He went to fetch her and he brought her back to her

 6    flat.  She was taken back to her flat and she is still there.

 7       Q.   When you say "he" went, did he do it himself?  Did he do it

 8    personally?

 9       A.   I can't say that precisely, but it's thanks to him that it

10    happened.

11       Q.   Were there any similar incidents?  Did you see men coming to the

12    headquarters to complain about something or to ask for help?  I'm

13    referring to Muslims, the Muslims who remained?  Were there such cases?

14    Was this something unusual or did it happen often?

15       A.   Whoever knew Stela would come to ask for food and other kinds of

16    help.  I personally distributed about 4 tons of food to Muslims.  Vinko

17    Martinovic, Stela, knew about this because he approved it.  He told me to

18    go and pick up the food saying it was for his men, and I distributed it to

19    the Muslims who came to ask for food.

20       Q.   So you are telling the Chamber that Stela authorised you to

21    distribute food intended for the unit to Muslims who came to ask for food

22    and -- how many tons did you say?

23       A.   About 4 tons because the brother of Mladen Bojcic, a neighbour of

24    mine, kept the records.  And he said:  "Well, you've taken a lot of food.

25    You'll be held responsible for that."

Page 14225

 1       Q.   According to what you say, you were there almost every day.  Can

 2    you tell us how often you were at the unit?  How much time did you spent

 3    there?  What time did you usually arrive?

 4       A.   I will arrive at around 8.00 a.m. And leave at around 2.00 p.m.

 5    Unless I went out on the field to fix a piece of equipment or a car.  But

 6    I spent most of the time there.

 7       Q.   Did you see any prisoners of war there?  Did you have any contact

 8    with them?

 9       A.   I did see them.  I would sit there with him.

10       Q.   Do you know where they came from?  How they came to be in the

11    unit, those prisoners?

12       A.   Those prisoners were brought from the Heliodrom at first, and

13    later on, they asked Stela to spend the nights there because they were

14    afraid they might be taken away by some other unit.  So he said:  "Well,

15    there are some offices upstairs," and about ten of them agreed to sleep in

16    those offices because they didn't want to return to the Heliodrom, so they

17    slept there.

18       Q.   What did the prisoners do there?  What kind of jobs did they

19    perform?

20       A.   It was Sejo Peco who was a car electrician.  And then there was

21    one who have a mechanic, two other mechanics, Meho Ramic.  They fixed cars

22    if anyone needed a car repaired.  They washed cars.  They didn't do any

23    hard labour, those ten.  They ate in the same canteen as the soldiers and

24    me. We often barbecued upstairs, and Vinko criticised me for that.  He

25    said we would set fire to the place because I took part in the barbecues.

Page 14226

 1    Since I was working, and Meho Ramic was a mechanic who repaired poker

 2    machines, I asked him to accompany me in the field and he asked to sleep

 3    in my home.  And Stela approved this.  So Meho Ramic stayed at my place

 4    and went around with me doing repairs and eating with me.

 5       Q.   Let's go back a little.  You are talking about the prisoners you

 6    used to see in the headquarters.  They were there.  They spent nights

 7    there.  You think or you know that this was voluntary and that they asked

 8    Stela to be allowed to remain there at nights.  Are you sure of this?  And

 9    how do you know that they requested this?

10       A.   I know that because they themselves told me, and also because they

11    asked me to intervene and to ask Stela to leave them there.

12       Q.   Apart from them, were there any other prisoners?  Were these the

13    only prisoners who had good conditions?  Were there other prisoners who

14    were in a more difficult situation than this group that you mentioned?

15       A.   I didn't see any other prisoners in the headquarters.

16       Q.   Did you yourself ever go to the Health Centre where the

17    demarcation line was?

18       A.   Rarely.  Maybe just to fix a phone, but I never actually went to

19    the line itself.

20       Q.   Do you know whether there were prisoners of war at the

21    confrontation line?  Do you know if some of them went to the confrontation

22    line or not?  And if they did, what they did there?

23       A.   In the first few days, perhaps they went there to pile up

24    sandbags.  After that, I didn't see that happening any more.

25       Q.   Did you ever hear that some of the prisoners were either wounded

Page 14227

 1    or killed in the unit at the confrontation line or somewhere else?

 2       A.   No.

 3       Q.   Tell me a little more about the conditions the prisoners were kept

 4    in.  Were they able to receive visits if they had family in Mostar?  Could

 5    they receive visits or go to their homes to see their families?  Were

 6    there any limitations to this or special permission for that?

 7       A.   These prisoners were not prohibited from doing anything.  They can

 8    receive visits whenever they wanted to.  As for visits, I myself took them

 9    home to have a bath but he didn't want to let them go on their own because

10    he was afraid they might be taken prisoner by someone else or driven out

11    by someone else and he would be blamed for that.

12       Q.   You say that you asked Stela to let one prisoner go from the unit

13    and spend the entire time with you.  When was this prisoner released, this

14    Meho Ramic that you mentioned?

15       A.   Meho Ramic spent six months with me.  He never went to get any

16    documents to be released.  He was released when he came to stay with me.

17    After the end of the war, he stayed on in Mostar for a year and worked

18    there.  When I left the unit and went to work at the mine, he worked with

19    me for a year in Western Mostar.

20       Q.   He was a prisoner with you --

21            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, Mr. Scott.

22            MR. SCOTT:  Apologise for the interruption, Mr. President.  Not an

23    objection but I seek clarification, please.  I was waiting to see if we

24    might come back to it, but can we understand that the conditions of

25    confinement that were being discussed in the last few minutes and the

Page 14228

 1    freedom of these prisoners are talking about the ten prisoners who stayed

 2    at the headquarters, specifically those ten prisoners we're talking about

 3    I suppose, I suppose, that might be clarified.

 4            JUDGE LIU:  Well, Mr. Par, you might ask some further questions to

 5    clarify this issue.

 6            MR. PAR: [Interpretation]

 7       Q.   Witness, you have heard the question, but let's try again.  Every

 8    day, you went to the unit.  Every day you had contacts with the prisoners.

 9    Did you have contacts with only those several prisoners in the

10    headquarters, or did you have opportunities to see all the prisoners who

11    passed through, what they were doing, and how they were treated?

12       A.   I went to the headquarters in Kalemova Street, but I also went to

13    the headquarters in Rondo to fix things, and there I saw prisoners

14    sweeping and cleaning the compound.  At the confrontation line I saw them

15    filling sandbags and taking them there.  This group asked to spend nights

16    in the unit.  I think there were about seven of them.  I can't be very

17    precise.  In the beginning, there were ten, but then he let them go home

18    some of them.  So the ones who remained were trained tradesmen who were

19    able to fix things.

20       Q.   Very well.  We understand the conditions for those in the

21    headquarters.  Did you ever see any other prisoners mistreated, beaten?

22       A.   I didn't see other prisoners at the headquarters, so I can't say

23    that that's so.

24       Q.   And the others you saw sweeping the compound, filling sandbags,

25    did you ever see any of them mistreated or working in life-threatening

Page 14229

 1    conditions?  Were shots being fired around their heads?  Were you ever

 2    able to see that?

 3       A.   No.

 4            MR. PAR: [Interpretation] If I may mention a name, if we could go

 5    in private session, and then I will complete my direct examination.

 6            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, we will go in private session, please.

 7                          [Private session]

 8  [redacted]

 9  [redacted]

10  [redacted]

11  [redacted]

12  [redacted]

13  [redacted]

14  [redacted]

15  [redacted]

16  [redacted]

17  [redacted]

18  [redacted]

19  [redacted]

20  [redacted]

21  [redacted]

22  [redacted]

23  [redacted]

24  [redacted]

25  [redacted]

Page 14230












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Page 14231

 1  [redacted]

 2  [redacted]

 3  [redacted]

 4  [redacted]

 5  [redacted]

 6  [redacted]

 7                          [Open session]

 8            MR. PAR: [Interpretation]

 9       Q.   Right.  Witness, so this was your experience with Vinko

10    Martinovic, Stela.  Can you tell this Court briefly, how did you become a

11    witness for the Defence?  How did your testimony come about and why?

12            MR. PAR: [Interpretation] And this is my last question, Your

13    Honours.

14       A.   I saw in the TV news the indictment against Stela in The Hague

15    Tribunal.  And from my experience, I think that is not so, and I

16    volunteered to come testify and tell the truth because within the context

17    that he's described in, he is not that kind of man.

18            JUDGE LIU:  We suggest that we make a break here.  We'll resume at

19    12.30.

20                          --- Recess taken at 12.01 p.m.

21                          --- On resuming at 12.30 p.m.

22            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, cross-examination.  Mr. Scott.

23                          Cross-examined by Mr. Scott:

24       Q.   Good afternoon, sir.  I think hopefully I just have a few

25    questions for you.  Perhaps if we can clarify a few things or confirm a

Page 14232

 1    few things at the beginning, the rest of it may go fairly quickly.  Did I

 2    understand you to say, sir, that you performed electrical repair work on

 3    electronic equipment and that sort of thing for Stela while he was at that

 4    time in the HOS?

 5       A.   Yes.

 6       Q.   And if I understood you correctly, you continued to provide those

 7    kinds of services to Stela during 1993, during the, if you will, the

 8    Muslim/Croat conflict.  Is that correct?

 9       A.   Yes, and for other battalions, too.

10       Q.   And that was my next question.  Did you do that sort of work also

11    for the -- for the man you identified in your testimony as Baja?  Did you

12    do electronic repair work for Baja's unit as well?

13       A.   I did.

14       Q.   And about this man, formally known as Mario Milicevic, also known

15    as Baja, how did you know him before you saw him on the 10th of May,

16    1993?  What was your history, if you will, with Baja?

17  [redacted]

18  [redacted]

19  [redacted]

20  [redacted]

21       Q.   So is it correct, then, to say that in addition to the prior

22    relationship or friendship you had with the Martinovic family, you also

23    had at least to some extent a similar prior friendship with the Milicevic

24    family.  Is that correct?

25       A.   It is.

Page 14233

 1       Q.   And did I understand you correctly to say, sir, that it was when

 2    you saw Baja on the 10th of May that it was sometime about an hour and a

 3    half after that that you then came into contact with Stela?

 4       A.   That's right.

 5       Q.   Would it be fair to say, sir, that it's your conclusion, or the

 6    inference that you would draw, is the reason that Stela came to you was

 7    because you had first run into Baja?

 8       A.   Well, I cannot say that with any certainty, but I believe it was

 9    he who told him.

10       Q.   The paper that Stela and Baja, between the two of them, gave you

11    that said you were a member of the HVO, the paper that you said they gave

12    you for purposes of protection, that document was not true, was it?

13       A.   It wasn't.  It was forged, simply to sell me as a cover.  It has

14    not been put on record anywhere.

15       Q.   And do you have any knowledge, sir, that similar false or forged

16    documents were provided to other Muslims or other persons by Stela during

17    1993?

18       A.   He gave papers to everybody for flats.  He covered many Muslims.

19       Q.   And so far as you know, were these statements -- are these papers

20    again to the effect that these persons, perhaps the men in these families,

21    were member of the HVO when, in fact, they were not?

22       A.   Those were papers which said that the flat concerned is under his

23    control.

24       Q.   Well, how would it be the case, sir, if you can assist the Judges,

25    how would a flat, in a particular part of Mostar, be under Stela's

Page 14234

 1    control?

 2       A.   On my flat, it said that the flat is under the control of Benko

 3    Penavic ATG, and my paper, the paper that I carried around, says that I'm

 4    a member of the Benko Penavic ATG.

 5       Q.   All right.  I appreciate that, sir.  But can you give us some

 6    additional insight, beyond that, to how it would be that a sign on your

 7    door - and I'm just looking to use your words as much as possible- that

 8    "the flat is under the control of Benko Penavic ATG"?  How would it be

 9    that that statement on your door would give you protection?

10       A.   Any paper, either from the HVO or the military police or any unit

11    in the town of Mostar, was respected.

12       Q.   All right.  Now, the second of the two events that you told the

13    Judges about, in terms of times when Stela personally intervened in some

14    way in connection with you or perhaps on some other occasion, the time

15    that -- with the situation where a woman was evicted, you said, did I hear

16    you say that that was approximately three or four months after the

17    conflict in Mostar began?

18       A.   Yes.

19       Q.   So if the conflict began in about the 9th or 10th of May, 1993, is

20    it your best recollection that that particular event happened sometime in

21    approximately August or September?

22       A.   I cannot be quite precise because those were funny times, but ...

23       Q.   But you would agree that your prior testimony and you're sticking

24    with your testimony as it were, sir, that it was some three or four months

25    after the events of about the 9th and 10th of May.  Is that correct?

Page 14235

 1       A.   Well, I would say so.  I cannot really affirm that, but I believe

 2    somebody's already mentioned it so that perhaps the exact date is known,

 3    because dates are not my strong point really.

 4       Q.   And can I also confirm, sir, if I heard your testimony correctly,

 5    and I wasn't sure if you perhaps modified it at some point, that's why I'm

 6    asking you, is it your testimony, sir, that you were never yourself at the

 7    confrontation line in Mostar?

 8       A.   I wasn't, no.  I was never at the confrontation line.

 9       Q.   Can we understand, sir, that whatever other assistance you may be

10    able to give to the Court, whatever other assistance you can give, you

11    simply have no information about anything that happened at the

12    confrontation line, no firsthand information?  Is that correct?

13       A.   It is.

14       Q.   I want to touch back again briefly on the 9th and 10th of May.  On

15    the 9th of May you stayed in your flat with your family.  And again, if I

16    heard you well, you did not venture out that day at all.  Is that correct?

17       A.   It is.

18       Q.   From your flat, could you see anything happening in Mostar on the

19    9th of May, or is it your testimony that you just simply saw nothing that

20    was happening that day?

21       A.   From my flat, you cannot see what goes on.  And all we could know

22    was that we heard the gunfire and - I don't know - shells.  I don't know.

23    I mean, one could hear gunfire, but you can't see anything from there.

24       Q.   I want to ask you a similar question, sir, about the first part of

25    July 1993, which perhaps you will recall was another date in which there

Page 14236

 1    was a high level of armed activity of sorts.  Where were you at about the

 2    early part of July when these events happened?

 3       A.   I do not remember.  Could you be more precise.

 4       Q.   All right.  Sir, well, perhaps you will recall that there were at

 5    least in the period from May to the end of June, beginning of July 1993,

 6    two large events in which a number of Muslims in Mostar were arrested or

 7    rounded up, if you will, perhaps other times in between.  But those two

 8    particular dates seem to be a matter of, I think, common knowledge among

 9    those of us in the courtroom, and perhaps others.  Do you remember a

10    second major wave of arrest of Muslims in Mostar about the 1st of July,

11    1993?

12       A.   No.

13       Q.   I want to ask you a few questions, sir, about your coming here as

14    a witness.  I heard you say, and I want to know that I did hear you say,

15    and I want you to understand that you said when you heard about the

16    indictment you decided on your own you wanted to come and be a witness for

17    Mr. Martinovic.  I understand that.  But how did you express your

18    willingness to come as a witness?  Who did you contact to actually make

19    the arrangements, get on the witness list, so to speak, and make the

20    arrangements to come to The Hague?  Who did you contact for that?

21       A.   His brother said if there is anything I can do, then I'll go and

22    testify.  About a month or perhaps two later, his lawyers came, they

23    called me, and I communicated with them and I offered that if necessary, I

24    was ready to go to The Hague.

25       Q.   Did Stela's brother come to you or contact you by telephone or

Page 14237

 1    come to your flat or did you initiate contact with him?

 2       A.   I was the one who asked for a contact.

 3       Q.   Well, just tell us very briefly, how is it that you made that

 4    contact then.  Just describe to us.  Did you pick up a telephone?  Did you

 5    see him in the street?  How was it that you had contact with

 6    Mr. Martinovic's brother about being a witness in The Hague?

 7       A.   His office is not far from where I am, and I was sitting in the

 8    coffee bar and I saw some people I knew come in.  I asked them what it's

 9    about, and they said we're going to testify.  And then I approached him

10    sitting quite near him.  I said, "Then, why not me?  Why didn't you call

11    me?"  So I offered to come.

12       Q.   Now, is it correct, sir, that you consider yourself to be good

13    friends with Mr. Martinovic, that is, Stela, and you consider yourself to

14    be good friends with him still today?  Correct?

15       A.   Yes.

16       Q.   And is it correct, sir, can you confirm, in fact, that when you

17    came in to the courtroom a few minutes ago, an hour or so ago, in fact you

18    exchanged looks and smiles with Mr. Martinovic?  Is that correct?

19       A.   It is.

20            MR. SCOTT:  Could I ask the witness to be shown the map that

21    Defence counsel used with the witness, so I can use the same -- with

22    counsel's permission, I would use the same map.

23            JUDGE LIU:  Shall we go to the private session, Mr. Scott?

24            MR. SCOTT:  Yes.

25            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, we'll go to the private session, please.

Page 14238

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Page 14239













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Page 14240













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Page 14241

 1  [redacted]

 2  [redacted]

 3  [redacted]

 4  [redacted]

 5  [redacted]

 6  [redacted]

 7  [redacted]

 8  [redacted]

 9  [redacted]

10  [redacted]

11  [redacted]

12  [redacted]

13  [redacted]

14  [redacted]

15  [redacted]

16  [redacted]

17  [redacted]

18  [redacted]

19                          [Open session]

20            MR. SCOTT:

21       Q.   Whether you knew Mr. Takac or not, did you ever hear of an

22    incident where someone, whether it was Mr. Takac or someone else,

23    associated with Mr. Martinovic's unit, Stela's unit, assisted a former JNA

24    officer in crossing the confrontation line and then having him cross back

25    over again?

Page 14242

 1       A.   No.

 2            MR. SCOTT:  Mr. President, I'm now going to page 4, item numbered

 3    5.

 4       Q.   Did you hear, ever, sir, that members of various ATG units in

 5    Mostar were hiding many Muslims in the town and giving them protection in

 6    exchange for financial gain?

 7       A.   No.

 8            MR. SCOTT:  Mr. President, I'm now referring to page 2 of Exhibit

 9    P588, toward the top of the page.

10       Q.   Did you hear any discussion or have any information come to your

11    attention, sir, during Mostar during this time, that is, the summer and

12    fall of 1993, that both the Mrmak and the Benko Penavic ATGs were

13    frequently transferring civilians around Mostar and across the

14    confrontation line?

15       A.   No.

16            MR. SCOTT:  And finally in this regard, on Exhibit P664.1.

17       Q.   Sir, did you ever hear of a situation of a woman named Delilovic

18    who was taken by Stela to the Croatian border and released there in

19    exchange for money?  Or perhaps, let me correct that, exchange may have a

20    different -- released, she was released for which she or members of her

21    family had paid money?

22       A.   No.

23       Q.   Sir, it's correct, isn't it, that during the time when you were at

24    Stela's headquarters, again, at one point you said virtually every day,

25    there were never any members of the Red Cross or members of any other

Page 14243

 1    international organisations that came to the headquarters, were there?

 2       A.   Yes.

 3       Q.   Yes, there were, is that there were international -- excuse me,

 4    representatives of international organisations who came to the

 5    headquarters?  I'm not sure I understand your answer, sir.

 6       A.   You asked me if there were any Red Cross people, and I said yes.

 7       Q.   And can you tell us approximately when you recall these Red Cross

 8    people coming to Stela's headquarters?

 9       A.   It was after the Dayton Accords.

10       Q.   So sometime after 1995, then, sir?

11       A.   Yes, or it could have been 1994, late that year.

12       Q.   Sir, it's correct, isn't it, that during the times that you were

13    at Stela's headquarters in 1993, throughout that time period no

14    international organisation, no member of the Red Cross, no member of

15    something that you might know as the ECMM or the European Monitoring

16    Mission, no such individuals ever came to Stela's headquarters?  Correct?

17       A.   From what I could see, they would move down the street.  But I

18    didn't see them park their vehicle and communicate with him.

19       Q.   Isn't it correct, sir, that Mr. Martinovic would not allow any

20    international organisations in his area?

21       A.   Well, they drove up and down in front of the base nonstop.  As

22    about the rest, I don't know.

23       Q.   What time period again, sir, are you talking about?  When you

24    said "They were driving up and down in front of the base" what time period

25    were you talking about?

Page 14244

 1       A.   It was at the time when one could write by the Red Cross those

 2    messages. One could send them.  And that was in 1994, I think the latter

 3    half when it became possible to write to one's kin, to one's people, when

 4    everybody could write.

 5       Q.   Sir, is it correct that even as late as approximately June 1994,

 6    Stela was keeping skilled prisoners at his headquarters, or about that

 7    area?

 8            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, Mr Par.

 9            MR. PAR: [Interpretation] I think that we are entering an area

10    that falls outside the indictment and that should be disallowed for that

11    reason.

12            JUDGE LIU:  Yes.  I think that's outside the indictment.

13    Mr. Scott, you may rephrase your question.

14            MR. SCOTT:

15       Q.   Well, is it correct, sir, that these prisoners, some of

16    these -- approximately these seven to ten prisoners that we've discussed

17    earlier, continued to work at or about Stela's headquarters in a work shop

18    or in a garage or around that area at least until the end of 1993?

19            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, Mr. Par.

20            MR. PAR: [Interpretation] I object again because the term

21    "prisoners" is being used, and we do not know whether they were prisoners

22    at the time.  I believe that the term should be "those people."

23            JUDGE LIU:  Well, yes, let us use this term, "that seven to ten

24    people."  We know who these people are, no matter we call them prisoners

25    or not.

Page 14245

 1            MR. SCOTT:

 2       Q.   Did those individuals, sir, that we've talked about, and you know

 3    I believe which ones, the seven to ten individuals that you've identified

 4    earlier, the skilled labourers, the skilled workers, did they continue to

 5    be at Stela's headquarters at least until the end of 1993?

 6       A.   I cannot tell you a precise date, but when an agreement was

 7    reached that prisoners were to be released, he released them.  And they

 8    volunteered to work in Smajo Zikic's garage.  They worked there and were

 9    paid for their services.  They didn't want to go anywhere else.  They

10    stayed there to work.  Those from Mostar went home to sleep at nights, the

11    others remained there.  They were free to leave if they wanted to; they

12    just wanted to stay.  I cannot talk about dates, but I know that when it

13    was said they should be released, they were released.

14       Q.   But the problem is, sir, you just said you can't indicate dates.

15    So you don't know if that was sometime in the second half of 1994 or

16    1995.  You don't know when that was.  Is that what you're telling us?

17       A.   I can't tell you the date, but in relation to the Dayton Accord,

18    and the signatures when the army and the HVO signed that agreement that

19    they should be released, that was when they were released.

20            MR. SCOTT:  Thank you, Mr. President.  No further questions.

21            JUDGE LIU:  Any re-examination, Mr. Par?

22            MR. PAR: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.

23            JUDGE LIU:  Any questions from the Judges?  Judge Clark.

24                          Questions by the Court:

25            JUDGE CLARK:  I don't have many questions, but I just would like

Page 14246












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13   English transcripts.













Page 14247

 1    some clarification on a number of issues.  When you were eventually given

 2    a uniform, Mr. Witness, did it have any markings on it?

 3       A.   No.

 4            JUDGE CLARK:  Just a plain camouflage uniform, not even with HVO?

 5       A.   Yes.  It was a camouflage HVO uniform.  Everybody had the same

 6    sort of uniform.  It was the same sort of uniform worn by HVO soldiers.

 7    They were all the same, camouflage uniforms.

 8            JUDGE CLARK:  Thank you.  If I recollect your evidence correctly,

 9    I believe you said that you worked during the conflict with the Serbs

10    providing a service to Mr. Vinko Martinovic as an electrician and to other

11    units as well.  Where was Mr. Martinovic's headquarters during the Serb

12    aggression?

13       A.   The headquarters was across the road from the old hospital in

14    Mostar.  That's the former military barracks.

15            JUDGE CLARK:  Across from the hospital, is that near the hospital

16    that's near the Bulevar?

17       A.   The Ero Hotel where the Bulevar is, when you go towards the

18    avenue, it's halfway towards it.  So one might say it was near.

19            JUDGE CLARK:  The Ero Hotel we've heard mentioned before.  I think

20    it subsequently became the HVO headquarters, or certainly it played a role

21    during the war.  Can I take it that the headquarters, then, was a totally

22    different place to the headquarters during the war after the 9th of May,

23    1993?

24       A.   Yes.

25            JUDGE CLARK:  You told us that you were subjected to a number of

Page 14248

 1    eviction attempts.  And on one occasion after the 9th of May, it's not the

 2    10th of May, after I think you said it was two weeks later, a neighbour

 3    sent the child on a bicycle to inform Mr. Martinovic what was happening.

 4    It seemed to me that you were talking about the headquarters at Kalemova

 5    Street.  Am I correct in that?

 6       A.   Yes.

 7            JUDGE CLARK:  So by the middle of May, if I understand you

 8    correctly, Mr. Vinko Martinovic had set up a headquarters in Kalemova

 9    Street?

10       A.   Yes.

11            JUDGE CLARK:  And did I understand you correctly that on the

12    occasion that you went there, there were a couple of -- a few prisoners

13    there, and your information in relation to the arrest and detention of the

14    miscreants came from the prisoners?

15       A.   I didn't understand your question.

16            JUDGE CLARK:  Do you remember that you described to us that there

17    were a group of people who were pretending or misrepresenting themselves

18    to be part of Mr. Martinovic's unit?  So I called them "miscreants," the

19    people who had committed the offence.

20       A.   Yes.

21            JUDGE CLARK:  Your information came from the prisoners in

22    mid-May.

23            My final question will require me, or the Court, to go into

24    private session, please.

25             JUDGE LIU:  Yes, we'll go to the private session, please.

Page 14249

 1                          [Private session]












13  Page 14249 – redacted – private session













Page 14250













13  Page 14250 – redacted – private session













Page 14251

 1  [redacted]

 2  [redacted]

 3  [redacted]

 4  [redacted]

 5  [redacted]

 6  [redacted]

 7  [redacted]

 8  [redacted]

 9                          [Open session]

10                          [The witness withdrew]

11            JUDGE LIU:  At this stage, are there any documents to tender?

12    Mr. Par.

13            MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Only this map, D2/32.

14            JUDGE LIU:  I understand this might be used by both parties.  Are

15    we going to give you one number, or double numbers?  Mr. Scott.

16            MR. SCOTT:  Mr. President, I'm fine, the Prosecution is fine with

17    giving it one exhibit number with the Defence number as long as obviously

18    both sides, or all sides, can refer to it.

19            JUDGE LIU:  Thank you very much.  So that map D2/32 marked by the

20    witness is admitted into evidence.  Mr. Scott, do you have any evidence to

21    tender?

22            MR. SCOTT:  No, Your Honour.  The way that it actually went.  In

23    fact all the exhibits that were referred to that were on our list have

24    already been admitted.

25            JUDGE LIU:  Thank you very much.

Page 14252

 1            And this D2/31 is under seal as I understand.

 2            MR. SCOTT:  The marked map.

 3            JUDGE LIU:  The marked map.

 4            MR. SCOTT:  Mr. President, may I have a moment of the Court's

 5    time.

 6            JUDGE LIU:  Of course.

 7            MR. SCOTT:  Mr. President, Your Honours, unless something has

 8    changed and I'm not aware of it, we only have two witnesses now to

 9    complete between now and the end of our session on Thursday.  I suspect

10    there's probably a very good chance that we will actually complete those

11    witnesses tomorrow, I would suspect.  Which I don't think is bad news to

12    anyone perhaps.  And I'm not suggesting otherwise.  But the reason I

13    wanted to have some of your time now, do I want to raise some important

14    concerns that I think are very pressing for the purposes of planning the

15    sessions, when we immediately return from the recess.  And I raise it now

16    because I don't want to wait even until next week, because of course, it

17    will be up to the Chamber to decide.  But I'm going to suggest to the

18    Chamber that there may be some serious questions that need to be

19    addressed.  And I don't want to put it off until the end of the day

20    tomorrow because there, again, human nature being what it is and all of us

21    being perhaps anxious to do other things, that we would then not get to it

22    at the end of the day tomorrow.  So that's why I think since I don't think

23    we'll have any trouble completing the next two witnesses this week, I was

24    going to suggest to the Chamber that now may be a good as time as any to

25    raise some concerns with the Chamber, if I have the Court's permission.

Page 14253

 1            JUDGE LIU:  Any problems with Mr. Seric?

 2            MR. SERIC:  [Interpretation]  Your Honour, I do have some

 3    comments, and an objection.  The Defence has its tempo, witnesses waiting

 4    outside.  I work quite fast, although I am not as optimistic as to assume

 5    that we will finish at a quarter to 2.00 with this witness.  Tomorrow,

 6    there will be time left to raise any issues about the trial.

 7                          [Trial Chamber confers]

 8            JUDGE LIU:  Well, Mr. Scott, we still have two days for two

 9    witnesses, according to the speed we are now, I think we could finish the

10    last witness for this week tomorrow afternoon or Thursday morning.  If we

11    finish that witness Thursday and we have plenty time to deal with those

12    issues.

13            MR. SCOTT:  Of course, I'm in the Chamber's hands, Your Honour.  I

14    don't want the week to somehow slip by and out of any ill will by anyone.

15    These are significant issues and I'm going to suggest to the Chamber

16    respectfully they are going to be more than five-minute issues.  I'm not

17    suggesting that we get into it now, I'm not arguing with the Chamber at

18    all.  But I do want to put it on the Chamber's agenda, because it will

19    have a definite impact potentially on the schedule when we return from

20    recess, in terms of some of the concerns that the Prosecution has.  I will

21    put all those other concerns off, Mr. President, as you've directed, save

22    one short item, and that is we would like to receive, and again, because

23    potentially tomorrow will be our last session this week, we would like to

24    know the witnesses for next week.  As I stand here before you right now, I

25    have no idea who is coming next week, and we would like to organise

Page 14254

 1    ourselves.  Thank you.

 2            JUDGE LIU:  Yes.  We would like to ask Defence counsel to furnish

 3    that list for next week by tomorrow.  And we'll have time after we hear

 4    the two witnesses this week to deal with the issue that might be raised by

 5    the Prosecutor, no matter whether that will be tomorrow or the day after

 6    tomorrow.

 7            Having said that, could we have the witness, please.

 8                          [The witness entered court]

 9            JUDGE LIU:  Good afternoon, Witness.  Can you hear me.

10            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

11            JUDGE LIU:  Would you make the solemn declaration in accordance

12    with the paper the usher is showing to you.

13            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

14    the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

15            JUDGE LIU:  Thank you very much.  You may sit down, please.

16            Mr. Seric, we have to finish this morning's sitting at quarter to

17    2.00 sharply.  Thank you.  You may proceed.

18            MR. SERIC:  [Interpretation]  Thank you, Mr. President.

19                          WITNESS: WITNESS MH

20                          [Witness answered through interpreter]

21                          Examined by Mr. Seric:

22       Q.   [Interpretation] Sir, the Chamber has granted protective measures

23    so that your image will be distorted, your voice will also be distorted

24    and you will have a pseudonym.  To begin with, the usher will show you a

25    sheet of paper with your first and last name.  Please don't read it out

Page 14255












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Page 14256

 1    loud, but simply say "yes" if it's correct.

 2       A.   Yes.

 3       Q.   I will put questions to you.  Please look at the light on the

 4    microphone.  When I switch my microphone off, the light will go out, and

 5    only then should you begin your answer.

 6            First, I will ask you for some information about you personally.

 7            MR. SERIC:  [Interpretation]  And so I request, Mr. President,

 8    that we go into private session.

 9            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, we'll go to the private session, please.

10                          [Private session]

11  [redacted]

12  [redacted]

13  [redacted]

14  [redacted]

15  [redacted]

16  [redacted]

17  [redacted]

18  [redacted]

19  [redacted]

20  [redacted]

21  [redacted]

22  [redacted]

23  [redacted]

24  [redacted]

25  [redacted]

Page 14257

 1  [redacted]

 2  [redacted]

 3  [redacted]

 4  [redacted]

 5                          [Open session]

 6            MR. SERIC:  [Interpretation]

 7       Q.   Witness, can you tell us briefly what happened to you during the

 8    Serbian aggression against Mostar?  How did you spend that period, and

 9    were you active in the military?

10       A.   I stayed at home.  I was not active in the military.  I did my

11    job.  I walked around Balinovac, where my friends were.

12       Q.   Do you remember the 9th of May when the conflict broke out between

13    the army of BH and the HVO in Mostar?  Where were you and what happened to

14    you on that day?

15       A.   On that day, the 9th of May, in the morning, some soldiers came.

16    They took me out of my house and sent me to the Velez stadium.  I spent

17    the whole day there.  And in the evening, they took me to the Ero Hotel.

18    And on the following morning, they put me in a bus and took me to the

19    Heliodrom.  I spent about nine days there, and a friend of mine whom I

20    knew from before, got me out and took me home.  He brought me home in the

21    afternoon, and the following morning, I didn't know what to do.  So I went

22    to look for Stela to see what I would do next.  And he told me, there

23    would be no problem.  He told me to go home.  He asked me if I needed any

24    money.  He gave me some money.  And I went home.  I bought some food

25    because there was nothing in the house.  And that's it.

Page 14258

 1       Q.   Did you have any work in your workshop after that?  It was

 2    wartime after at all.

 3       A.   Well, there was work from time to time.

 4       Q.   Did anyone threaten you in that period?

 5       A.   On one occasion, a soldier came by car.  It was a big car, and he

 6    wanted us to repair his car.  He was a little drunk, and he threatened

 7    me.  He said, "If his car was not ready by evening, he would kill us," me

 8    and a friend of mine.  It was impossible to repair the car by the evening,

 9    and I told him it wasn't possible to repair the car in one day, that there

10    was at least two days' work.  He said:  "I don't care.  I'm going to a

11    cafe to have a drink, and if it's not ready by evening, I'll kill you."  I

12    said to my friend:  "I don't know what to do.  I'll go to Stela's and see

13    if he can intervene."  I went to Stela's headquarters where he had

14    meetings and I told him that a soldier had threatened to kill me if I

15    didn't fix his car on the same day and there was no way that could be

16    done.

17            He told me and my friend to stay in his headquarters, and he went

18    to look for that soldier with some of his men.  After a certain time had

19    elapsed, his soldier came to fetch my friend and me and took us back to

20    our workshop.  When we got there, we saw Stela and the soldier who had

21    threatened me.  And he said:  "There's no problem.  Everything is all

22    right.  Repair the car when you can."  And so things after that went

23    well.

24       Q.   Throughout that period, especially in late 1993 and early 1994,

25    did anything happen in your immediate family that caused you to go to

Page 14259

 1    Stela for help again?

 2       A.   Yes.  In March 1994, my mother died.  At that time, it was

 3    wartime, and I didn't know how to arrange for a funeral.  I went to look

 4    for Stela, and I told him my mother had died.  I asked him to help me bury

 5    her according to the Islamic law.  He said to me:  "There's no problem.

 6    Do you need anything?"  He said he would give me whatever I needed.  He

 7    also gave me some money.  I went home and arranged for the Muslim

 8    funeral.  There was a hodza who came to officiate.  And everything was

 9    done at Stela's expense.  At that time, it was unimaginable to have a

10    Muslim funeral for a Bosniak family in that part of Mostar.  All that

11    ended well, and I am still grateful to Stela.

12       Q.   Do you know of any other examples where Vinko Martinovic helped

13    somebody?

14       A.   Yes, the whole area up from, Djikovina and all the families,

15    everybody there said how Stela had helped them, how he had brought

16    them home from a medical school, there are quite a number of families who

17    are grateful to Stela for what he did for them.

18       Q.   And have you heard of stories about Stela and Stelici, Stela's

19    boys, persecuting Muslims?

20       A.   Yes, I heard it on various occasions.  Once Stela had brought his

21    car to me to do some repairs.  It was very hot that day, and he gave me

22    some money to go and get a beer in a shop.  And the shop is quite near,

23    not less than a one metres away from my work shop.  So I went to get that

24    beer, and there were lots of people in that shop.  And I heard them

25    talking.  Stela, he's rounding people up around the market and so on and

Page 14260

 1    so forth.  And I took those beer bottles and said:  "Listen, people, Stela

 2    is at my place in the garage with his car.  He gave me the money to buy

 3    beer, and I'll be off.  So go out and you'll see him.  He'll be passing by

 4    in 20 minutes' time" and they just stayed mum.  And those are only

 5    stories, Stela does this, and Stela does that, but Stela is at a

 6    completely different place.

 7       Q.   Did you have any knowledge that prisoners from the Heliodrom came

 8    to work at Vinko Martinovic's base?

 9       A.   Yes, I knew that.  There were three or four of those prisoners.

10    Well, they were called prisoners, but they had nothing.  They worked in my

11    garage.  They walked around freely, nobody guarded them.  Nothing, they

12    had what to eat, they had what to drink.

13       Q.   Did you pay them when they worked at your place?

14       A.   Well, at times somebody paid, and then we bought -- we would buy

15    meat together and then make barbecues and ...

16       Q.   That house and that workshop, how far is it from Vinko

17    Martinovic's base?

18       A.   Less than 10 minutes on foot.

19       Q.   Could you see what happened to those prisoners who were at the

20    base?

21       A.   Well, yes, I can because they move about freely.  Nothing.  They

22    walked around, and I know how they patronised various coffee bars and

23    they were left alone.

24       Q.   But the indictment says that it was Stela's private prison.

25       A.   I don't think so.

Page 14261

 1            MR. SERIC:  [Interpretation]  Believe it or not, Your Honours, I

 2    am done.  I have finished my direct examination.

 3            JUDGE LIU:  I think that's the record time in these proceedings.

 4            Any cross-examination?

 5            MR. SCOTT:  Yes, Your Honour.  But I will not finish it in ten

 6    minutes.

 7            JUDGE LIU:  Of course not.

 8                          Cross-examined by Mr. Scott:

 9       Q.   Sir --

10            MR. SCOTT:  If a clean version of 11.18 could be shown to the

11    witness.

12       Q.   Counsel didn't ask you to mark the map but I will because I just

13    think it's going to be better in the long run if we have maps marked.

14            If you can, sir, if you can look at the map that's to your right

15    now, and orient yourself for a moment.  What I'm going to ask you to do is

16    to mark --

17            THE INTERPRETER:  We are sorry.  We could not hear the witness.

18            MR. SCOTT:  My apologies.

19            I think he needs his glasses.

20            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right, yes.

21            MR. SCOTT:

22       Q.   Sir, could you look at the map, orient yourself for a moment,

23    please, as best you can, and can you find on the map approximately, and it

24    doesn't have to be terribly precise, but as close as you can where your

25    house -- where your residence was located during 1993 --

Page 14262

 1            MR. SCOTT:  I'm sorry, Mr. President.  In private session.

 2            JUDGE LIU:  We'll go to the private session, please.

 3                          [Private session]

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16                          [Open session]

17            JUDGE LIU:  And during your stay here in The Hague, do not talk to

18    anybody and do not let anybody talk to you about your testimony because

19    you are still under the oath.  Do you understand that?

20            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do.

21            JUDGE LIU:  Thank you very much.

22            We'll resume in Courtroom I tomorrow afternoon.

23                          [The witness stands down]

24                          --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

25                          1.45 p.m., to be reconvened on Wednesday,

Page 14266

 1                          the 24th day of July, 2002, at 2.15 p.m.