1 Tuesday, 23 July 2002
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The accused Naletilic not present]
5 [The witness entered court]
6 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.
7 JUDGE LIU: Call the case, please.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is Case Number
9 IT-98-34-T, the Prosecutor versus Naletilic and Martinovic.
10 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. I notice that Mr. Naletilic is
11 not present at this moment. Yes? Yes, Mr. Krsnik.
12 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour. I have
13 also noticed this, and I am surprised because I have not been informed of
14 it, although in accordance with your order, that Defence counsel must be
15 informed in case of failure to show up. However, I will ask Madam
16 Registrar what this is about during the break. So we need not waste Court
17 time. We are still waiting for an independent expert report on my client,
18 rather, his state of health, which has not been completed yet.
19 Another thing I wish to request, Your Honour, is to be allowed to
20 go to the registry and look at the list expert doctors so that a truly
21 independent expert can be selected and the expert opinion made. Thank
23 JUDGE LIU: Well, I believe that Madam Registrar will explain to
24 you during the break about all those matters. Since we have the witness
25 here, we'll proceed at this moment.
1 Yes, cross-examination, Mr. Bos.
2 MR. BOS: Thank you, Your Honour. Your Honours, I have some
3 exhibits which I will use which will be distributed at this moment by the
5 WITNESS: WITNESS MF [Resumed]
6 [Witness answered through interpreter]
7 Cross-examined by Mr. Bos:
8 Q. Good morning, Witness.
9 A. Good morning.
10 Q. Witness, I will ask you some questions. It won't take long. But
11 if you could just bear some moment with me. And for my first part of the
12 questions, I'd like to go into private session, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we'll go to the private session, please.
14 [Private session]
13 Pages 14173 – redacted – private session
13 Page 14174 – redacted – private session
13 Page 14175 – redacted – private session
13 Page 14176 – redacted – private session
7 [Open session]
8 MR. BOS:
9 Q. Witness, you've testified that you were evicted twice from your
10 apartment, and the first -- on both occasions, I'd like to ask you some
11 questions. So the first time was on the 9th of May. Is that correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Now, on that day, how many soldiers entered your apartment?
14 A. Well, they were men I didn't know. I didn't know a single one of
15 them. There were two or three of them, and there were others outside in
16 the street.
17 Q. Did you recognise their uniforms?
18 A. No, I didn't.
19 Q. Now, Witness, you've said that you didn't recognise any one of
20 them. But isn't it correct that one of these men was a man named Ernest
22 A. I don't know. I didn't see him.
23 Q. Do you know a man by the name of Ernest Takac?
24 A. No, I don't.
25 Q. On this occasion, was -- were any of your family members
1 mistreated? Were they kicked or were they beaten, or were you mistreated
2 in any way?
3 A. No, no one was. I was there with my wife and daughter, and nobody
4 touched us.
5 Q. Witness, were other Muslims from your neighbourhood also evicted
6 on this day?
7 A. Well, I don't know. Yes, there were some. What date do you
9 Q. On the 9th of May, on the day that you were evicted.
10 A. Yes, there were quite a few.
11 Q. Could you give us an approximate number?
12 A. Well, I was so upset, I really wouldn't know. But there were
13 others, yes.
14 Q. Would it be dozens or hundreds or ...?
15 A. Who could count them? I have no idea. I didn't even know what I
16 was doing.
17 Q. Now, Witness, you testified that you were expelled to this area,
18 Donja Mahala. How did they take you there? Did they take you by a truck
19 or did you have to walk?
20 A. We had to walk. It wasn't far, and we walked in a group. Nobody
21 touched us, but, well, we had to go.
22 Q. And when you were left off in Donja Mahala, where did you stay in
23 Donja Mahala?
24 A. In a house, a family house.
25 Q. And why did you return after 22 days?
1 A. I went home. I wasn't mobilised, so I was able to go back and
2 nobody had touched anything.
3 Q. I think you've already answered my next question, but I'll ask you
4 again. When you came back to your apartment, was your apartment still in
5 the same condition as you left it on the 9th of May?
6 A. I found it in exactly the same state it was when I locked it
7 before leaving.
8 Q. So you had locked your apartment when you were expelled on the
10 A. Yes, they told me to lock my flat and to keep the key, and that's
11 what happened. And nobody had entered it.
12 Q. Witness, let's talk now about the second time you were expelled,
13 which is on the 2nd of July. Correct?
14 A. On the 2nd of July, yes, yes.
15 Q. How many soldiers were involved on this occasion?
16 A. Well, there were -- who could count them? I don't know the exact
17 number. There were soldiers.
18 Q. Did you recognise any of those soldiers at that time?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Let me ask you again: Was a man named Ernest Takac involved on
21 this occasion?
22 A. No, he wasn't. No.
23 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Seric.
24 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. We have
25 heard the answer, but since I've risen, the witness has already said he
1 didn't know Ernest Takac, so the question was superfluous. However, we
2 have heard the reply. Thank you.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were strangers.
4 MR. BOS:
5 Q. On this occasion, you were taken to the Heliodrom. Is that
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. What happened to your wife and your daughter?
9 A. They stayed at home.
10 Q. Witness, do you know a man named Zijad Kavazovic?
11 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Seric.
12 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] I would like to ask the witness to
13 respond aloud, because he just moved his head.
14 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
15 MR. BOS:
16 Q. Witness, do you know a man by the name of Zijad Kavazovic?
17 A. I don't.
18 Q. Could it be that he was a person who lived in your neighbourhood?
19 A. I don't know.
20 Q. Witness, I'm going to show you an exhibit.
21 MR. BOS: And Your Honours, maybe we should go into private
22 session for this.
23 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we'll go to the private session, please.
24 Yes, yes.
25 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I hope I haven't risen too fast, but
1 is that Exhibit 803.03?
2 MR. BOS: Yes, it is.
3 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is a new exhibit,
4 and I wish to comment on all this. I think I can comment before the
5 witness, but if you say that I shouldn't, then the witness could go out.
6 JUDGE LIU: Well, could we hear the witness first, then we'll hear
7 your comments.
8 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Yes. Your Honour, but then my
9 objection would be superfluous because I want to acquaint the Chamber with
10 my doubts about this exhibit, and I wish to be heard.
11 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Could we hear it after we hear the witness.
12 We'll go to the private session, please.
13 [Private session]
13 Page 14182 – redacted – private session
13 Page 14183 – redacted – private session
5 [Open session]
6 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Meek.
7 MR. MEEK: As a matter of principle, Your Honours, this document
8 speaks -- the contents of the document mentioned my client extensively.
9 He's not here today. They claim it's a new document. We've had, since
10 our Defence case started, a multitude of new documents which we have never
11 received in discovery. And perhaps the Trial Chamber can determine
12 whether we're going to keep receiving these new documents, quote, unquote,
13 which implicate our client. And I wonder, Your Honours, why is it we've
14 not received these documents in discovery prior to this time. I think it's
15 improper. And I object to it.
16 JUDGE LIU: Well, I haven't noticed that your client's name was
17 mentioned in this document, and thank you for drawing my attention to it.
18 But this issue is involving a general question of law, we'll deal with it
19 after the testimony of this witness.
20 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, we can finish the witness, if we're
21 allowed to although I'm not sure if we can frankly because of what I'm
22 about to say. I very specifically a few moments ago made it clear that I
23 was concerned about the record of Mr. Naletilic not being present today.
24 We were assured that we could proceed without him. Now, in the last five
25 minutes, his counsel, both of his counsel, both Mr. Krsnik and now
1 Mr. Meek has indicated that -- has raised a question, how can we talk
2 about this document when our client is not even here? Now, we can either
3 go forward without Mr. Naletilic here, or we can't. But we can't have it
4 both ways. So if they are going to take that position, which they both
5 now have, then I suggest, Your Honour, request that these proceedings be
6 recessed until Mr. Naletilic returns, or until we have a written waiver
7 from him, or until we have a clear indication from Defence counsel that
8 they are not having it both ways. It's okay to proceed, but as soon as
9 there are any questions asked that implicates them, it's not okay. That's
10 our one response, Your Honour.
11 When the witness is not here, and I do want to respond most
12 vociferously to the statements made about documents in disclosure. But I
13 don't think we can proceed, Your Honour, on the record, and I object to
14 proceeding, let me make the Prosecution position very clear, I object to
15 proceeding without Mr. Naletilic here based on the statements made by
17 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik.
18 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I state for the record
19 we can proceed without my client because I go by what I said in the
20 beginning. It has nothing to do with my client but the manner of work of
21 the Prosecution. Your Honours, this game which is played by the
22 Prosecution goes on. We are served documents, shall I speak now, shall we
23 wait for the witness to leave, which have no value at all. We do not know
24 where they come from, what they are -- and such documents seems to fall
25 from the heaven on the Prosecutor's desk day in, day out.
1 JUDGE LIU: I'll give you time to raise your objections.
2 Mr. Bos, I understand that you have another document which is
3 also new, that is, P567.3. Does this document involve Mr. Naletilic?
4 MR. BOS: No, Your Honour, it doesn't.
5 JUDGE LIU: You may proceed.
6 MR. BOS: Are we back in open session? I think we can move back
7 in open session.
8 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we are in open session.
9 MR. BOS:
10 Q. Witness, do you know the name of the unit of which Mr. Vinko
11 Martinovic was a member of?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Witness, is it correct that you were imprisoned at the Heliodrom
14 from the 2nd of July to the 20th of August?
15 A. It is.
16 Q. Is it correct that it was your testimony yesterday that in that
17 period you were never taken out for labour except on the 20th of August
18 when you got wounded?
19 A. On the 20th of August, I was taken out. I said that yesterday,
20 last night. I was wounded that day.
21 Q. But listen carefully to what I say: Were you ever taken out on
22 other occasions during that period for labour?
23 A. No.
24 Q. In your detention at the Heliodrom, were there any other Muslims
25 from your direct neighbourhood who were also detained in that period?
1 A. Why, the school was full.
2 Q. But also with Muslims from your neighbourhood?
3 A. Why, yes, there were.
4 Q. Witness, let's talk about the 20th of August, 1993. You've
5 testified that on that day, you were taken out for labour. How many
6 prisoners -- with how many prisoners were you taken out? Do you recall
8 A. All I know is that I was there, and some others, quite a few.
9 Q. Could you be a bit more specific if you say "quite a few"? Could
10 you give an approximate number?
11 A. Come on, I didn't count them. How can I know how many of them
12 there were?
13 Q. Witness, is it correct that you on that day were sent to the
14 Carinski Most?
15 A. It was that day that I worked, that day I was wounded, too.
16 Q. And that was at the Carinski Most where you got wounded. Correct?
17 A. Right in front of Carinski bridge, a shell fell there.
18 Q. Witness, is it also correct that you worked for the HVO 1st Light
19 Assault Military Police Battalion on that day?
20 A. Not true.
21 Q. For which unit did you have to work, do you recall?
22 A. I don't know.
23 Q. Why do you say that it's not true that you worked for the 1st
24 Light Assault if you say that you don't know?
25 A. Well, I didn't say anything. What did I say? I don't know those
1 military -- nobody told me then where I was going to work.
2 Q. Witness, do you recall the name of the soldier who picked you up
3 on that day from the Heliodrom?
4 A. We dared not look up, let alone -- how can I know the name of the
5 soldier or anything?
6 Q. Why not?
7 A. Well, I mean, if you don't dare to look up, you could still hear
8 maybe somebody's name. It's -- didn't you hear any names of persons who
9 picked you up?
10 A. Nothing. I was not supposed to know anything. I don't know.
11 Q. And why didn't you dare to look up?
12 A. Well, we were not supposed to look or anything. But I didn't
13 really want to know.
14 MR. BOS: Could the witness be shown Exhibit P434, please.
15 JUDGE CLARK: There's not much point showing him anything if he
16 can't read it without his glasses.
17 MR. BOS: I'll have to read it to him, then, Your Honours.
18 Q. Witness, I know you don't have your reading glasses on you, so I
19 will have to read out this document to you again. Witness, this is a list
20 of orders, organised by date, that members of certain battalions picked up
21 prisoners for labour. Now, if we look in the column which is on the
22 English page number 0046 in the last digits, for the 20th of August, it
23 gives five entries. Four entries are for the 1st Light Assault Brigade.
24 And one entry is for the ATG Mrmak. Now, for the entries for the 1st
25 Light Assault Brigade, in the last column, they have indicated the names
1 of the persons who were put in charge, and these were the persons who
2 would also pick you up, who would pick up the prisoners.
3 They have indicated the following names: Ejo Mandic for the 1st
4 Light Assault Brigade, Ivan Martinovic for the 1st Light Assault Brigade,
5 Dinko Knezovic for the ATG Mrmak, again Ejo Mandic for the 1st Light
6 Assault Brigade, and Meho Gosto for the 1st Light Assault Brigade. Do any
7 of these names ring a bell to you?
8 A. None of them.
9 Q. Witness, the name Ivan Martinovic, the father of Vinko Martinovic
10 is also called Ivan Martinovic, correct?
11 A. Ivan Martinovic, Mr., he was with me in the civil defence, what?
12 You are asking me --
13 Q. Yes, let me just ask you, Witness, did you see Mr. Ivan Martinovic
14 on that day?
15 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
16 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, please, I really do
17 not think this is all right. The Prosecutor tries to muddle up the
18 witness as if Ivan Martinovic, the father of Vinko Martinovic, took
19 prisoners for labour. Now really, this is not in order. I object to this
20 of course.
21 JUDGE LIU: I think Ivan Martinovic's name appears on this list.
22 I think the Prosecutor is entitled to ask some questions for the
23 clarification of this name.
24 MR. BOS: Exactly, and that was the main purpose I was doing
1 Q. Witness, did you see Mr. Ivan Martinovic on that day, on the 20th
2 of August when you were taken out?
3 A. No, no, I didn't. I didn't see any one of those individuals.
4 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
5 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I cannot invent a
6 description of what the Prosecutor is doing. He is asking if he saw
7 Mr. Ivan Martinovic when he was taken that day, taken from where, taken to
8 where, which Ivan Martinovic? I really think, I mean, he's consciously
9 confusing the witness.
10 JUDGE LIU: Well, we understand there's many people with the same
11 name. Maybe this is a different person. I think the witness has answered
12 that question already.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't understand, but no, no, he
14 wasn't taking. I didn't understand.
15 MR. BOS:
16 Q. Witness, when you got wounded on that day, did other people get
17 wounded as well, as far as you know?
18 A. I don't know. All I saw was that I had been wounded, and I
19 panicked, and then I was taken to the hospital.
20 MR. BOS: Could the witness be shown Exhibit 567.3, and I'll read
21 it out again to him.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I haven't got my glasses. Who is
23 going to read it?
24 MR. BOS:
25 Q. I know, Witness, and I will read out this document to you.
1 Witness, this is a report from the warden of the central military remand
2 prison, and it states the following: "Following the request of 20 August,
3 1993 by the 1st Light Assault Battalion of the military police, four
4 detainees were handed over guarded by Meho Gosto. Upon their return, we
5 have been informed that six detainees have been wounded such as" and six
6 names are listed including your name under number 3. "And on the same
7 day, -- two detainees were killed" and they list two names.
8 Witness, it says here that the persons who were picked up, they
9 were picked up by the name of Meho Gusto, and is it correct that's the
10 same name that was mentioned before in the other document?
11 A. I know -- I don't know nothing about it.
12 Q. Just a few more questions about after --
13 A. I'm too tired.
14 Q. I'm almost done here, Witness. Just a few more questions.
15 Is it correct that after you got wounded and got back to Mostar,
16 that you went to the Martinovic family to help you?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Is it correct that when you went to the Martinovic's, that you
19 spoke both to the father, Ivan Martinovic, and to Vinko Martinovic
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And that wasn't really clear from your testimony yesterday, but
23 was one of the reasons that you approached the Martinovic family the fact
24 that you and your wife were neighbourhood friends of the Martinovic
1 A. Yes. Before the war. We were neighbours, lived next to each
3 Q. Now, what --
4 A. And still. We are still neighbours.
5 Q. Witness, what kind of protection were you given? What did you ask
6 for and what kind of protection did they give you?
7 A. First my wife was sick, and I can never forget it, in the war,
8 that family helped me, Vinko Martinovic first --
9 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
10 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] We have heard already a number of
11 details which could disclose the witness's identity, apart from the date
12 which the Prosecutor read, he has also read several names including the
13 name of this witness. Now we come to a string of details which can show
14 exactly who that is, what went on to the -- what happened to the witness's
15 wife. So if the Prosecutor intends to proceed, could we then go please
16 into private session.
17 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we could go to the private session, but we don't
18 see any trace of disclosure of the identity of this witness because we
19 also keep a close watch on the screen.
20 Yes, we'll go to the private session.
21 MR. BOS: Your Honours, if my learned friends makes an accusation
22 that I mentioned the witness's name I would like to have that corrected
23 because I didn't do that and I don't want to have that reflected in the
25 JUDGE LIU: Witness, I'm sorry to interrupt you. You may continue
1 with your answer.
2 [Private session]
12 [Open session]
13 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Only one question.
14 Q. Witness, you mentioned how Vinko had put something on your door.
15 What was it?
16 A. The name, and Stela put it on the door. It says that.
17 Q. And what was that supposed to mean?
18 A. That he's left me in the flat.
19 Q. That he was guaranteeing your safety?
20 A. Yes, yes.
21 Q. Thank you.
22 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] No further questions.
23 JUDGE LIU: Any questions from the Judges? Judge Clark.
24 Questions by the Court:
25 JUDGE CLARK: Mr. Witness, I have very few questions for you. I
1 know you're nervous, and you said you were tired. Do you remember on the
2 9th of May, when the soldiers came to your house, do you remember if you
3 don't just say you don't remember. Do you remember approximately when
4 during the day that was? Was it the morning, the afternoon, the evening,
5 or the night?
6 A. It was in the morning.
7 JUDGE CLARK: Now that you remember that it was in the morning,
8 was it early in the morning or had the morning well developed, like now,
9 9.30, 10.00, or was it earlier than that?
10 A. I never looked at my watch, but it was morning. Now when ...
11 JUDGE CLARK: That's fair enough. I know it's a long time ago.
12 The other thing I wanted to ask you about is when you were taken to the
13 Heliodrom, were you very upset and very nervous, which would be
14 understandable, of course?
15 A. Why yes, yes.
16 JUDGE CLARK: Do you think that's why you weren't asked to go out
17 and work, or was there any other reason?
18 A. Well, in the beginning, they did not take people out. I went out
19 only once. I don't know.
20 JUDGE CLARK: Well, in the room that you were in, I think you said
21 it was the classroom, were there any days in which some of your friends
22 and colleagues were taken out, and you were left behind? Or are you
23 saying that nobody was taken out until the day you were taken on the 20th
24 of August?
25 A. It was before. They took out people for work every day, and it
1 was just kind of a lot.
2 JUDGE CLARK: So your unlucky number didn't come up until the
3 20th of August. Is that what you're saying? A. Yes, yes. That was
4 the only day that I worked.
5 JUDGE CLARK: Thank you for answering my questions. And we
6 appreciate your being here. It's not easy.
7 JUDGE LIU: Any questions out of Judges' questions?
8 Thank you.
9 MR. BOS: No, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE LIU: Witness, thank you very much for coming to give your
11 evidence. We appreciate your evidence very much. The usher will show you
12 out of the room. We all wish you a pleasant journey back home.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
14 [The witness withdrew]
15 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Krsnik, now is the time for you to explain
16 to us about your doubts on this document, P803.03.
17 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. However, I
18 feel as if I were playing Russian roulette. This is not something --
19 thank you.
20 This is really like Russian roulette. Now things have turned out
21 well, by "well," I mean the witness himself has stated that what is stated
22 here is not true. However, had not the witness been here to deny this,
23 the Prosecution would have waived this document about, claiming it to be
24 true. There are three essential questions here: The first is that this
25 document was produced by AID, at least that's what it says in the
1 heading. This is a secret Muslim terrorist organisation now being
2 investigated in Sarajevo. I have documents which are now being
3 translated, and I will hand them over to the Court. This is an
4 investigation against the director of AID, his deputy, and his second
6 I have the whole file of the investigation, and the OTP also has
7 it, but it keeping quiet about it. They have been accused of terrorism,
8 of political assassinations, forging documents, and all this is being
9 investigated by the Supreme Court of Bosnia and Herzegovina. They were
10 arrested by SFOR. Their secret training camp was surrounded because it
11 was under the auspices of the Iranian secret service and al Qaeda. These
12 were typical products of theirs. The Prosecutor says that the source is
13 the government of Bosnia-Herzegovina. Your Honours, you still do not have
14 my submission because I am now having translated voluminous documentation,
15 which I will attach. You said that the two sides could express their
16 stand points on the government of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and I will provide
17 my submission about this. I now simply wish to say that a government of
18 Bosnia-Herzegovina does not exist. This place is no kindergarten. It's
19 an international court. We cannot play cat and mouse here like little
20 children. The government of Bosnia-Herzegovina does not exist, and this
21 is a well-known fact.
22 Thirdly, Your Honour, this sort of statement, even were it true,
23 the jurisdiction of Bosnia-Herzegovina, of Croatia, of Serbia, of
24 Yugoslavia, the Former Yugoslavia, would say that it cannot be used in
25 court proceedings. It would be banned, forbidden by law. No police
1 record or intelligence record may be used at a trial in court proceedings,
2 either as evidence or least of all as grounds for a judgement.
3 What is this about, Your Honours? The gentlemen from the OTP,
4 seeing the strength of their evidence and their witnesses, are trying
5 through the back door through a witness like this to say, yes, yes, we
6 have a question here about Stela, and then they submit a statement which
7 contains some mention of Stela, plus five pages about my client. And in
8 this way, the Prosecution is piling up documents for you to read. And
9 they are fulfilling their aim. Why didn't they bring Zijad Kavazovic as
10 an OTP witness here, if he exists at all? I no longer believe anything,
11 least of all the good faith of my learned friends from the OTP. I don't
12 know if this Zijad Kavazovic exists even, it would be interesting to find
13 out. And I hope, Your Honours, that God will help me and that somebody
14 from AID will finally come here to testify, someone whose conscience will
15 prompt them to tell Your Honours what was really happening behind the
16 scenes. Thank you.
17 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Scott.
18 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, I promise to be shorter and less
19 emotional than Mr. Krsnik.
20 In terms of the document, sir, the document that Mr. Bos used was
21 used for two purposes, both of which I believe are completely proper in
22 our submission. It was used in an attempt -- it may have failed, but
23 that's not the standard. But it was a reasonable and fair attempt to
24 refresh the witness's recollection. It is indeed true that many of these
25 events happened a long time ago. It is often the case, has often been the
1 case in this trial, that when a witness is shown documents, they recall
2 things they didn't initially recall. They may not recall something in the
3 first document, it may take the second or a third document. But
4 eventually they may remember. And the Prosecution is entitled to both
5 probe, is intended to both probe and not necessarily take the first
6 witness given -- the first answer given by the witness. The Prosecution
7 is intended to ask questions several times, if it seems perhaps necessary,
8 and with some of these witnesses, it is, either because of their memory or
9 their demeanour or their concern about being in the courtroom. And the
10 Prosecution is also entitled to try to refresh witness's recollections.
11 It may ultimately fail or succeed. That is not the point. We are
12 entitled to try.
13 What Mr. Bos did was entirely in my respectfully submission
14 entirely proper. It was also offered to the Chamber to show the basis for
15 counsel's questions. There have been a number of occasions, even in the
16 past few weeks, where both Defence teams have gotten on their feet very
17 vociferously protesting about the basis of the questions of the
18 Prosecution. Mr. Bos was very transparent in showing everyone in the
19 courtroom the basis for the question that was put. And in my respectful
20 submission, Mr. Bos behaved properly in every respect.
21 We, of course, could not disagree more with counsel's allegations
22 about AID and his statements about the Bosnia -- excuse me, the federation
23 government of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and I told you now I will not belabour
24 that except to say that we could not disagree more. And I think counsel
25 should be very careful in the allegations he makes about terrorist
2 In terms of documentation, sir, Mr. President, Your Honours, we do
3 look for documents when witnesses come to testify. If a witness comes to
4 testify, the Prosecution investigates our available documentation. And
5 indeed, if we find the document that relates to a particular witness or
6 part of their testimony, something that they have put in issue by their
7 direct examination, then of course, of course, the Prosecution will seek
8 to use it. And we will continue to seek to use it, and there may be new
9 documents every day. There may be new documents every day. If counsel
10 brings witnesses here, we have the right to cross-examine. We don't have
11 any discovery from the Defence. We have no prior statements. We get
12 nothing. We get nothing, Mr. President. When we hear the direct
13 examination and we investigate what we may have, the information that may
14 be available to the OTP about a witness, then we may use it, and if we
15 deem it proper, we will use, subject to the Court's guidance. So to
16 answer counsel's questions, yes, they are new documents. There may be new
17 documents every day. There's probably going to be new documents later
18 today, and there's probably going to be new documents tomorrow. And that
19 is the way, respectfully, Mr. President, the process works. Thank you.
20 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Krsnik, we are not debating this issue, you know.
21 We could spend a whole day here. I understand the views from the both
22 parties. I give you one minute.
23 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. May we go
24 into private session, please. Because I wish to inform the Chamber about
25 some other matters. I was not going to bring up now, but the Prosecutor
1 has prompted me to do so. So I request that we go into private session.
2 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we'll go to the private session, but you have to
3 be very brief.
4 [Private session]
3 [Open session]
4 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Seric, I think I have to hear your view on this
5 document since this witness is your witness.
6 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honour,
7 for giving me leave to speak. The Defence has no documents to tender, but
8 we have not yet heard from the Prosecution whether they wish to tender
9 this document. If they do not intend to tender it, I have nothing to
10 say. If they do, then I will have something to say. Thank you.
11 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Bos.
12 MR. BOS: We do not intend to tender this document, Your Honours.
13 The only three exhibits which I intend to tender are the map, 11.18/17,
14 the map as marked. And furthermore, Exhibit P56.3. And that will be an
15 exhibit under seal, because it refers to the witness's name. Exhibit P434
16 is already admitted.
17 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.
18 Mr. Seric. I think there should be no objections concerning that
19 map, that is P11.18/17, which was marked and under seal. Am I right?
20 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] You are right, Your Honour. And I
21 will go further: I have no objection to the documents the Prosecution is
22 tendering, and I have no further comment to add.
23 JUDGE LIU: How about that document, P567.3? No objections?
24 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.
1 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] It simply establishes --
2 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Meek.
3 MR. MEEK: The accused Naletilic would object to the introduction
4 of 567.3 on the basis that this witness knew nothing about this document,
5 absolutely nothing about this document. 567.3 is being offered; 703.03 is
6 not being offered. This witness was shown the document and knew nothing
7 about the document. That's tantamount to not showing the document to the
8 witness at all and then asking that the document be tendered into
9 evidence. Mr. Seric doesn't object but we do object on that grounds. No
10 foundation, no indicia of reliability. And even though the Prosecutor did
11 not ask that 803.03 be admitted, give me 30 seconds, Your Honours, if, in
12 fact, the Prosecutor wanted to refresh the recollection of this witness,
13 this witness first told the Prosecutor "I cannot read, I don't have my
14 reading glasses." He could have, as Judge Clark said, synopsised one
15 paragraph on page 4, that's all he asked the witness about. That's all he
16 wanted to ask the witness about. But the Prosecution it appears has a
17 paragraph poisoning the well by putting a five, six-page English document
18 full of insinuations about Mr. Naletilic in front of this Trial Chamber
19 and then only asking about one paragraph which does not mention
20 Mr. Naletilic. I think this practice is improper, and I think the Trial
21 Chamber should ask the Prosecutor to cease this practice. Thank you.
22 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. As for the document P567.3, although the
23 witness did not recognise that document, by his testimony corresponded to
24 the contents of that document. Secondly, Mr. Seric has no objections to
25 the admission of this document, and this is a witness for Mr. Seric. This
1 document does not mention at all Mr. Naletilic's name. So this document
2 is admitted.
3 Well, I think we'll have our break. And during the break, I'll
4 instruct Madam Registrar to make sure the waiver of Mr. Naletilic for our
5 continued sitting on this case. We'll rise until 5 minutes to 11.00.
6 --- Recess taken at 10.22 a.m.
7 --- On resuming at 10.56 a.m.
8 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Par.
9 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. Our witness
10 is here, but before he comes in, could I have a minute, please. It has to
11 do with these maps. Perhaps you have noticed that several witnesses have
12 complained, said that these Mostar plans were not accurate. And when they
13 marked the localities they lived in, a number of witnesses said that names
14 were not correct. We consulted our client, and he told us that the
15 witnesses' objections were correct and requested that we stop using such
16 an inaccurate plan. Why? Our witnesses says that the name of localities
17 such as, Djikovina, Panjevina are marked erroneously so that the witnesses
18 get confused. For instance, where it says Djikovina should be Ilici,
19 because Djikovina is a bit lower. Where it says Panjevina that is where
20 Djikovina should be. And what happens is that when a witness knows that a
21 house, for instance, is in Djikovina, the witness sees how the map says
22 Djikovina, and marks it there, although Djikovina is erroneously indicated
23 in the map. So we do not know. This has not caused by particular problem
24 for our Defence because one is more or less clear where the houses are
25 located which they pointed at. However, these maps create a certain
1 confusion and are inaccurate, and they could be challenged at some point.
2 I looked at these maps which we were given by the OTP, and I have
3 not seen a single map without such mistakes. Why do we address the
4 Court? I want to ask whether the Prosecutor has an accurate map so that
5 we could use that one. Now, we shall have a witness to whom I'd like to
6 show the map, but in this situation, I just wonder, would it perhaps be
7 better for me not to show him the map and have him describe certain
8 locations are, or if I have to have this map, then I'll have to clarify
9 these inaccuracies with him. Now, if OTP has another map, could we then
10 have it, and could the Court please instruct me, should I examine the
11 witness without a map or try to clear the inaccuracies up with him?
12 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much, Mr. Par, to bring up this issue.
13 Of course, we would like to use a map as accurate as possible, if they are
14 available. And secondly, I believe that using this map is just an
15 indication. We cannot only rely on the marks made by the witness on those
16 maps. We also have to refer to the testimony of this witness according to
17 the transcript at a later stage. So I believe that these maps can only
18 give us a rough idea of the locations, not the exact places where he
19 lives. So you may continue using these maps and see how far we go with
20 these maps. If not, we just give this effort up.
21 Yes, could we have the next witness. Mr. Usher, would you please
22 bring the witness.
23 [The witness entered court]
24 JUDGE LIU: Good morning, Witness.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
1 JUDGE LIU: Would you please make the solemn declaration, please.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
3 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
4 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. You may sit down, please.
5 Yes, Mr. Par.
6 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
7 WITNESS: WITNESS MG
8 [Witness answered through interpreter]
9 Examined by Mr. Par:
10 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness. Before we begin, I'd like
11 to tell you that the Court has granted you protective measures, that is,
12 voice and face distortion, and alias, and we shall go into private session
13 when we discuss some personal matters so that nothing will get out of this
14 courtroom. But before we begin, you'll be shown a sheet of paper with
15 your name on it.
16 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] So could the usher please give the
17 witness this sheet of paper.
18 Q. If your name is accurately written, then you will just say "yes"
19 without saying your name aloud, and then we'll proceed.
20 A. Yes, it is.
21 Q. Thank you. During our conversation, we shall do our best to speak
22 slowly. If you can, please, pay attention to this microphone. When you
23 see that the red light is off, that will mean that I've switched off, and
24 then you can start answering slowly so the interpreters can keep up.
25 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we go into private
1 session for a series of questions which have to do with the witness's
3 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we'll go to the private session, please.
4 [Private session]
13 Page 14208 – redacted – private session
13 Page 14209 – redacted – private session
12 [Open session]
13 MR. PAR: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Witness, we shall begin with the period of the Serb aggression
15 against Mostar. But before that, tell me, did you spend -- were you in
16 Mostar during the war? Have you been in Mostar all the time until this
18 A. Yes, I was in Mostar all the time.
19 Q. The Serb aggression, what happened to you then? Were you
20 militarily involved, just briefly what did you do during that time?
21 A. No, I was not involved in the army because I was relieved of the
22 military duty even in the Yugoslav People's Army.
23 Q. But what did you do during that time, what kind of duties did you
25 A. I repaired radio stations, Motorolas and whatever for all the
2 Q. How did you do it? Did you go to these units, or did they come to
3 your workshop or your home? Can you tell us just how it happened?
4 A. Well, at times, I would go out, but it was always in Mostar.
5 Q. And what is it that you had to repair, what kind of equipment was
6 it? Just as an example.
7 A. Radio stations which would be captured during the Serb aggression,
8 and I changed the frequencies.
9 Q. So your job wasn't of a military character; you were not
10 militarily engaged. You were a civilian who provided this kind of service
11 to different units. Is that correct?
12 A. It is.
13 Q. Did you know Vinko Martinovic, Stela, at the time?
14 A. I knew him from before.
15 Q. Can you say how did you know him, on what terms were you with him?
16 A. Balinovac was a centre where the young people used to get together
17 before the conflict, and that is how we came to know one another. We come
18 from this very small area.
19 Q. Now, at the time of the Serb aggression, was Stela militarily
20 engaged? Was he a member of any military unit?
21 A. He was in the HOS.
22 Q. Did you also do these repairs for his unit, for HOS? Did you go
23 to him, or would he perhaps bring some of these appliances to you? Did
24 you at that time have that kind of regular contact with him?
25 A. Yes, I volunteered and placed myself at the disposal.
1 Q. This was the time of the Serb aggression, liberation from the
2 Serbs, and shortly a conflict between Muslims and Croats broke out. Do
3 you remember the day when the conflict started in Mostar? What day was
4 it, and tell us, perhaps, how did you see the day? What happened to you
5 that day?
6 A. On the 9th of May, 1993, the gunfire started around 4.00, or half
7 past, early, at daybreak. I was at home with my family. And I spent
8 there the whole day at a loss. I didn't know what was going on. I
9 thought that the troops were firing between themselves, and I was not with
10 the military. And the media was saying that the HVO should be placed
11 under the command of the TO of the BH army, and in Bosnia, the HVO under
12 the command of the army, of the Armija. And I thought that that was some
13 kind of conflict between them. It would be over in no time.
14 Q. Now, if I understood you right, you spent the day with your family
15 in your flat. Did anyone come to your door that day, any soldier? Did
16 anyone come to try to evict you? Did anything like that happen that day?
17 A. No, not that day. The next day, yes.
18 Q. Right. But was anyone evict anyone else in your building, or is
19 it that nothing happened to anyone that day?
20 A. In my building and around me, nothing happened that day.
21 Q. You mentioned that something began to happen the next day, so tell
22 us what was it, the next day, on the 10th of May, what came to pass?
23 A. The next day, they came and requested to see our IDs and took the
24 Muslims, Bosniaks, out, and then made us walk into a column and walk
25 towards the stadium, towards the pitch.
1 Q. Who was that? Do you know which troops were they? What was the
2 unit? How did they take you out? What did they tell you? How did they
3 take you to this pitch? Whom did they take there?
4 A. All the Bosniak families. I didn't know who were those troops.
5 And I was walking by myself at the head of the column thinking if there's
6 anything from Mostar, they will recognise me and turn me back, and that is
7 what happened some 200 metres later by Milicevic, his troops. Two or
8 three vehicles came up, they stopped us. And we talked with these troops
9 and I said that I was their member and I was turned back. Which was not
10 true because I wasn't. But that is what he said so that my wife and my
11 children and I were sent back.
12 Q. You said you didn't know who those soldiers were, and at the same
13 time you said that "I was at the head of the column thinking that somebody
14 from Mostar would turn up." Does that mean that this unit that came to
15 your place was not from Mostar? Do you know where they came from?
16 A. Later on, I mean, when I returned, Baja came to see me and said
17 that they were from Livno because in Mostar, about 70 per cent of the
18 population know me.
19 Q. Right. Now, Baja Milicevic turned up, and he knows you, took you
20 out of the column, told them that you were his soldier, and you turned you
21 back to your flat. Did others return home, or were you the only one who
22 returned to his flat in that building?
23 A. The others were taken towards the pitch, towards the playground,
24 play field.
25 Q. We'll come back to those who were taken away. But that day, when
1 you returned, when you returned, did anything else of significance happen
2 to you, or was that all as far as your family was concerned?
3 A. Within one hour or an hour and a half, I can be quite accurate,
4 Vinko Martinovic Stela came because Baja had told him what had happened to
5 me, and said that if travel troops came up to tell them that I was his
6 soldier. So that meant I got tremendous support, and after that I was not
7 too afraid any more.
8 Q. So Vinko Martinovic came to you on his own, after he had heard it
9 from Baja, or did you call him?
10 A. No, Baja must have told him, or somebody else whom he had met
11 because I did not leave the apartment.
12 Q. Now, let us go back a little to the -- to your neighbours who were
13 taken towards that play field. Did they ever return to your building, or
14 was it that they left and never came back? Did those who were taken away
15 on the 10th of May, were they -- did they come back?
16 A. They spent at the Heliodrom, seven to ten days. That is what
17 they told me. They all came back, and they were all together in the
18 building. And then it was on a voluntary basis, that is, at the level of
19 the town, it was -- the buses were organised. Who wants to go to the east
20 side? Who wants to go abroad? Who wants to say? So some opted for
21 moving over to the east side, others for being abroad, and some stayed. I
22 stayed because I was not a soldier, and I enjoyed this protection, and I
23 was not afraid.
24 Q. Let us clear this up. So those same families that were taken to
25 the stadium, returned a few days later back to their flats, to this
1 building, had their flats been looted? Had they been burgled or did they
2 find the flats in the same shape they left them?
3 A. At the time the flats were locked and nobody had taken anything.
4 Q. Now, a little bit about this organisation. You say that after
5 that, people started leaving in an organised manner. Was it truly
6 organised, meaning that one could leave of his own will, that people were
7 given a choice, I want to go to the east side, want to go abroad, or do
8 you want to stay? Or was it under duress?
9 A. It was all on a voluntary basis.
10 Q. So some boarded buses or on foot, or did they all go at the same
11 time? Or did first those who wanted to go abroad leave, and then those to
12 the east side? How long did it last? Was it one day or longer? How was
13 it all?
14 A. During -- in the course of a week, for two days.
15 Q. Did the majority leave?
16 A. Everybody from our building went, and from those small other
17 buildings, small houses which looked like sheds, they stayed, and they are
18 still there.
19 Q. How is it that you did not leave? How did your family decide?
20 Because you say that you were offered a choice. Why did you decide "we
21 shall stay"?
22 A. Well, I'm an electrician, a repairman. And all I'm interested in
23 is that particular trade because I'm not a soldier, never served any army,
24 I thought that nobody could hold me responsible for anything. And I
25 simply thought that, no, that it was not necessary for me to go. And
1 because Stela was there.
2 Q. What do you mean "Stela" rules here? Is it because his unit is
3 there where you say "Stela ruled there"? What does it mean, does it have
4 some authority or what?
5 A. My house and his house are all within 300 metres diameter as the
6 crow flies so that one of his folk would always be passing through. And
7 this sector that he held, the front line that he held, everybody knew
8 whose it was.
9 Q. You wished to say, then, that his unit was stationed in that area,
10 and that that unit was connected to that part of town as other units were
11 connected to other parts of town. Is this the explanation?
12 A. Yes, that's the explanation.
13 Q. Very well. So here is Stela, whom you know, his unit. You decide
14 to stay because Stela is here. Why did you base your security on this?
15 How did you believe that Stela could help you, or that he wouldn't harm
16 you? Did you talk to him? Why do you say that you felt you could stay
17 because you felt safe because of Stela?
18 A. I knew Stela from before, and I trusted him. When he said
19 something, when he said "stay, no one will touch you," you can come to me
20 if you have any problems, then I knew there would be no problems.
21 Q. Did you have any problems in fact? Did anyone ever come to your
22 door? Were there any attempts to evict you? Were there such situations?
23 A. Yes, on two occasions. And Vinko Martinovic, Stela, saw this
24 himself because he was in my flat with me.
25 Q. You say this happened on two occasions. Can you tell us about the
1 first of these, tell us what happened. When was the first time someone
2 came to your door to bother you or whatever they did?
3 A. A few days later, four soldiers came to evict the Muslims who were
4 left. Mladen Bojcic, a neighbour of mine sent his son to Stela's
5 headquarters. The boy went there with his bike. Stela returned and
6 surrounded the building with his men. He asked me where the soldiers
7 were. He and his men came in and took these four soldiers prisoner and
8 took them off to his headquarters. On the following day, when I went to
9 the headquarters, I learned that they had been handed over to the military
10 police and would probably be punished.
11 Q. Just a few more details about this event. Can you tell us the
12 approximate date?
13 A. It was between the 15th and the 17th, about ten days later.
14 Q. 15th or 17th of May, 1993. How many soldiers were there? Were
15 they a unit or a group? What did they say?
2 Q. How much time elapsed from the time these soldiers turned up to
3 the time Stela and his men arrived and took them prisoner?
4 A. About ten minutes.
5 Q. After that, were they all taken back to their homes? What did
6 this mean for your whole building and you personally when you saw the fast
7 intervention, the speedy reaction?
8 A. Well, everybody thanked me, and they thanked Stela, although they
9 didn't know him. But they told me to say thank you to him.
10 Q. You say that these men were arrested, and that you heard they
11 would be handed over to the military police and would be punished. Where
12 did you get this information, when, and from whom?
13 A. On the following day, I went to the headquarters to do something,
14 and I met three or four prisoners whom I knew well. On completing my job,
15 I sat down with them and chatted because I was allowed to do that, as were
16 the others. And they told me this, that the day before, four men had been
17 handed over to the military police.
18 Q. Talking about your going to the headquarters, can you tell us
19 throughout this period, how did it come about that you used to go to
20 Stela's headquarters, and did you go to the headquarters of other units?
21 Did you continue to work on repairing equipment just as you did before the
22 war? Why did you go to the headquarters, on what basis?
23 A. I asked to go there, even if only to sit there, because I wanted
24 them to know that I was attached to a unit, so I would not be evicted by
25 others who came along because Vinko Martinovic, Stela, did not have a
1 stamp, so he sent me to Baja, which is a hundred metres further on from
2 Rondo. He sent me there, and they gave me a piece of paper saying that I
3 was a member of that unit so that I could move around freely.
4 Q. As far as I understand, you talked to Stela and asked him to give
5 you a document which would enable you to move around, and you were issued
6 by a document not by Stela, but by Baja Milicevic. What sort of document
7 was it? Did he really receive you into his unit? What did that document
8 say and what could you use it for?
9 A. It was the sort of document carried by all soldiers. It said that
10 I was one of his men, a soldier, and I could show it to the military
11 police and other units to move around freely. And if there was a job for
12 me to do, I was under an obligation to report and to perform the job. So
13 I went to the unit every day.
14 Q. So it was a situation similar to that during the Serbian
15 aggression, you were a civilian, you had this document so that you could
16 move around. Were you issued with a uniform?
17 A. On three occasions on the way from my house to the Rondo, on
18 Bakamluk the military police arrested me and took me to the faculty, and I
19 told them I was going to Rondo to the base. And every time, Baja came
20 along to get me released, and after that they gave me a uniform, and then
21 I had no problems.
22 Q. So you were given a uniform in order to avoid being arrested as a
23 civilian and so on. Were you issued with weapons?
24 A. No. Throughout the war, I did not have any weapons at all.
25 Q. You said a while ago that there was a second event when someone
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 came to your door. You have told us about one event; now will you tell us
2 about the other one. When did it happen and what happened?
3 A. Some 20 or 25 days later - excuse me - from the beginning, every
4 day, Vinko Martinovic would come and see me in the afternoon or in the
5 late afternoon to see that I was all right because there were criminals
6 around looting. So he would come to check on me, to see that I was all
7 right. Some 20 or 25 days later, he dropped in with his wife. My wife
8 made coffee, and we were just drinking coffee when four soldiers arrived
9 at my door to evict me under orders from Vinko Martinovic, Stela. I told
10 them that I was a soldier of Stela's and that I could not leave my flat
11 without his permission, and they laughed at that. And then I went into my
12 living room to talk to Stela, and two of them followed me in. And I
13 said: "Men, let me introduce you to Vinko Martinovic, Stela, my
14 commander." And they turn around and fled. I never saw any of them
15 again. And I assume neither did he.
16 Q. How many of them were there, and did you recognise any of them?
17 Did you recognise the unit? Did you notice any identifying features?
18 A. I never saw them again, and as far as I can remember, they wore no
19 insignia, only camouflage uniforms. There were four of them.
20 Q. So you said that they introduced themselves as coming on Stela's
21 orders. When they entered your home, did they see Vinko Martinovic,
22 Stela, himself there? Were they able to see him physically when they
23 entered your flat?
24 A. Yes, they stood in front of him.
25 Q. Was it then that they fled? Did they recognise him and flee, or
1 did they not know him at all?
2 A. They didn't know him at all.
3 Q. And they fled only when you told them who he was? Is that
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Was this the only time you saw someone falsely introducing
7 themselves as a member of Stela's unit and acting on Stela's orders? Did
8 you have any other personal experiences where you heard or saw that there
9 were such impersonations, not only in your flat but anywhere outside on
10 the street, in the neighbourhood?
11 A. Yes, there were many such cases that I heard about. And I
12 personally witnessed one such event. May I describe it?
13 I was in Stela's headquarters with the prisoners, and there was a
14 meeting going on upstairs. He was having a meeting with his soldiers
15 which went on for an hour or an hour and a half. And then a woman with
16 two children arrived and she asked me is this the military police? And I
17 said madam, what do you want? And she said: "Stela, Vrada and somebody
18 else have evicted me." And I said when? And she said a quarter of an
19 hour ago. I kept waiting there for 45 minutes until the meeting ended.
20 And then I went to Stela and I asked him what was going on. And he told
21 me. And he told me I should bring her to him. And he asked the women
22 and she told him and told him everything that happen. And he gave her his
23 hand and he said,"Let me introduce myself. I am Vinko Martinovic. Am I the
24 one who evicted you?" And she said no. He said was it one of my men and
25 she said no, and then he said do you have a place where you can spend the
1 night? And she said that she had a sister who was married to a Croat. He
2 ordered four of his soldiers to take that woman there, and put her up with
3 her sister and then to go back to her flat and wait for the men who
4 evicted her. He assumed the men would be back to loot the place. And
5 they did come back. He took those four soldiers prisoner that night. I
6 was in the headquarters until 3.00 or 4.00. On the following day I heard
7 from the prisoners who saw all this, and they thought they were from the
8 Sinj Battalion, and I heard later on that these men were sentenced to a
9 month in prison each.
10 Q. When was this approximately?
11 A. This was three or four months after the conflict.
12 Q. This woman spoke to you personally. Do you know what her name
13 is? Do you know what she is by ethnicity? What part of town she was
14 from? What did she tell you?
15 A. She is a Muslim. And she was from the area near the car
17 Q. She said that she had been evicted by Stela and some of his
18 soldiers and she mentioned who the soldiers were. When Stela came out,
19 did he try to establish with her whether any of the soldiers were actually
20 his men?
21 A. She mentioned the soldiers by name. He brought all his men before
22 her, because they had just been at a meeting so they were all there. He
23 showed her the soldiers and told her their names, and she confirmed that
24 it was not one of them. And then he asked if it was any of the others,
25 the other soldiers. And the woman's answer was it was not.
1 Q. Very well. Not to repeat all this, he sent his men to her flat to
2 wait in ambush for these four. They were arrested and handed over to the
3 military police. Did that woman ever go back to her flat with her
4 children? Do you know that?
5 A. Yes, I do. He went to fetch her and he brought her back to her
6 flat. She was taken back to her flat and she is still there.
7 Q. When you say "he" went, did he do it himself? Did he do it
9 A. I can't say that precisely, but it's thanks to him that it
11 Q. Were there any similar incidents? Did you see men coming to the
12 headquarters to complain about something or to ask for help? I'm
13 referring to Muslims, the Muslims who remained? Were there such cases?
14 Was this something unusual or did it happen often?
15 A. Whoever knew Stela would come to ask for food and other kinds of
16 help. I personally distributed about 4 tons of food to Muslims. Vinko
17 Martinovic, Stela, knew about this because he approved it. He told me to
18 go and pick up the food saying it was for his men, and I distributed it to
19 the Muslims who came to ask for food.
20 Q. So you are telling the Chamber that Stela authorised you to
21 distribute food intended for the unit to Muslims who came to ask for food
22 and -- how many tons did you say?
23 A. About 4 tons because the brother of Mladen Bojcic, a neighbour of
24 mine, kept the records. And he said: "Well, you've taken a lot of food.
25 You'll be held responsible for that."
1 Q. According to what you say, you were there almost every day. Can
2 you tell us how often you were at the unit? How much time did you spent
3 there? What time did you usually arrive?
4 A. I will arrive at around 8.00 a.m. And leave at around 2.00 p.m.
5 Unless I went out on the field to fix a piece of equipment or a car. But
6 I spent most of the time there.
7 Q. Did you see any prisoners of war there? Did you have any contact
8 with them?
9 A. I did see them. I would sit there with him.
10 Q. Do you know where they came from? How they came to be in the
11 unit, those prisoners?
12 A. Those prisoners were brought from the Heliodrom at first, and
13 later on, they asked Stela to spend the nights there because they were
14 afraid they might be taken away by some other unit. So he said: "Well,
15 there are some offices upstairs," and about ten of them agreed to sleep in
16 those offices because they didn't want to return to the Heliodrom, so they
17 slept there.
18 Q. What did the prisoners do there? What kind of jobs did they
20 A. It was Sejo Peco who was a car electrician. And then there was
21 one who have a mechanic, two other mechanics, Meho Ramic. They fixed cars
22 if anyone needed a car repaired. They washed cars. They didn't do any
23 hard labour, those ten. They ate in the same canteen as the soldiers and
24 me. We often barbecued upstairs, and Vinko criticised me for that. He
25 said we would set fire to the place because I took part in the barbecues.
1 Since I was working, and Meho Ramic was a mechanic who repaired poker
2 machines, I asked him to accompany me in the field and he asked to sleep
3 in my home. And Stela approved this. So Meho Ramic stayed at my place
4 and went around with me doing repairs and eating with me.
5 Q. Let's go back a little. You are talking about the prisoners you
6 used to see in the headquarters. They were there. They spent nights
7 there. You think or you know that this was voluntary and that they asked
8 Stela to be allowed to remain there at nights. Are you sure of this? And
9 how do you know that they requested this?
10 A. I know that because they themselves told me, and also because they
11 asked me to intervene and to ask Stela to leave them there.
12 Q. Apart from them, were there any other prisoners? Were these the
13 only prisoners who had good conditions? Were there other prisoners who
14 were in a more difficult situation than this group that you mentioned?
15 A. I didn't see any other prisoners in the headquarters.
16 Q. Did you yourself ever go to the Health Centre where the
17 demarcation line was?
18 A. Rarely. Maybe just to fix a phone, but I never actually went to
19 the line itself.
20 Q. Do you know whether there were prisoners of war at the
21 confrontation line? Do you know if some of them went to the confrontation
22 line or not? And if they did, what they did there?
23 A. In the first few days, perhaps they went there to pile up
24 sandbags. After that, I didn't see that happening any more.
25 Q. Did you ever hear that some of the prisoners were either wounded
1 or killed in the unit at the confrontation line or somewhere else?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Tell me a little more about the conditions the prisoners were kept
4 in. Were they able to receive visits if they had family in Mostar? Could
5 they receive visits or go to their homes to see their families? Were
6 there any limitations to this or special permission for that?
7 A. These prisoners were not prohibited from doing anything. They can
8 receive visits whenever they wanted to. As for visits, I myself took them
9 home to have a bath but he didn't want to let them go on their own because
10 he was afraid they might be taken prisoner by someone else or driven out
11 by someone else and he would be blamed for that.
12 Q. You say that you asked Stela to let one prisoner go from the unit
13 and spend the entire time with you. When was this prisoner released, this
14 Meho Ramic that you mentioned?
15 A. Meho Ramic spent six months with me. He never went to get any
16 documents to be released. He was released when he came to stay with me.
17 After the end of the war, he stayed on in Mostar for a year and worked
18 there. When I left the unit and went to work at the mine, he worked with
19 me for a year in Western Mostar.
20 Q. He was a prisoner with you --
21 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Scott.
22 MR. SCOTT: Apologise for the interruption, Mr. President. Not an
23 objection but I seek clarification, please. I was waiting to see if we
24 might come back to it, but can we understand that the conditions of
25 confinement that were being discussed in the last few minutes and the
1 freedom of these prisoners are talking about the ten prisoners who stayed
2 at the headquarters, specifically those ten prisoners we're talking about
3 I suppose, I suppose, that might be clarified.
4 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Par, you might ask some further questions to
5 clarify this issue.
6 MR. PAR: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Witness, you have heard the question, but let's try again. Every
8 day, you went to the unit. Every day you had contacts with the prisoners.
9 Did you have contacts with only those several prisoners in the
10 headquarters, or did you have opportunities to see all the prisoners who
11 passed through, what they were doing, and how they were treated?
12 A. I went to the headquarters in Kalemova Street, but I also went to
13 the headquarters in Rondo to fix things, and there I saw prisoners
14 sweeping and cleaning the compound. At the confrontation line I saw them
15 filling sandbags and taking them there. This group asked to spend nights
16 in the unit. I think there were about seven of them. I can't be very
17 precise. In the beginning, there were ten, but then he let them go home
18 some of them. So the ones who remained were trained tradesmen who were
19 able to fix things.
20 Q. Very well. We understand the conditions for those in the
21 headquarters. Did you ever see any other prisoners mistreated, beaten?
22 A. I didn't see other prisoners at the headquarters, so I can't say
23 that that's so.
24 Q. And the others you saw sweeping the compound, filling sandbags,
25 did you ever see any of them mistreated or working in life-threatening
1 conditions? Were shots being fired around their heads? Were you ever
2 able to see that?
3 A. No.
4 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] If I may mention a name, if we could go
5 in private session, and then I will complete my direct examination.
6 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we will go in private session, please.
7 [Private session]
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
7 [Open session]
8 MR. PAR: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Right. Witness, so this was your experience with Vinko
10 Martinovic, Stela. Can you tell this Court briefly, how did you become a
11 witness for the Defence? How did your testimony come about and why?
12 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] And this is my last question, Your
14 A. I saw in the TV news the indictment against Stela in The Hague
15 Tribunal. And from my experience, I think that is not so, and I
16 volunteered to come testify and tell the truth because within the context
17 that he's described in, he is not that kind of man.
18 JUDGE LIU: We suggest that we make a break here. We'll resume at
20 --- Recess taken at 12.01 p.m.
21 --- On resuming at 12.30 p.m.
22 JUDGE LIU: Yes, cross-examination. Mr. Scott.
23 Cross-examined by Mr. Scott:
24 Q. Good afternoon, sir. I think hopefully I just have a few
25 questions for you. Perhaps if we can clarify a few things or confirm a
1 few things at the beginning, the rest of it may go fairly quickly. Did I
2 understand you to say, sir, that you performed electrical repair work on
3 electronic equipment and that sort of thing for Stela while he was at that
4 time in the HOS?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And if I understood you correctly, you continued to provide those
7 kinds of services to Stela during 1993, during the, if you will, the
8 Muslim/Croat conflict. Is that correct?
9 A. Yes, and for other battalions, too.
10 Q. And that was my next question. Did you do that sort of work also
11 for the -- for the man you identified in your testimony as Baja? Did you
12 do electronic repair work for Baja's unit as well?
13 A. I did.
14 Q. And about this man, formally known as Mario Milicevic, also known
15 as Baja, how did you know him before you saw him on the 10th of May,
16 1993? What was your history, if you will, with Baja?
21 Q. So is it correct, then, to say that in addition to the prior
22 relationship or friendship you had with the Martinovic family, you also
23 had at least to some extent a similar prior friendship with the Milicevic
24 family. Is that correct?
25 A. It is.
1 Q. And did I understand you correctly to say, sir, that it was when
2 you saw Baja on the 10th of May that it was sometime about an hour and a
3 half after that that you then came into contact with Stela?
4 A. That's right.
5 Q. Would it be fair to say, sir, that it's your conclusion, or the
6 inference that you would draw, is the reason that Stela came to you was
7 because you had first run into Baja?
8 A. Well, I cannot say that with any certainty, but I believe it was
9 he who told him.
10 Q. The paper that Stela and Baja, between the two of them, gave you
11 that said you were a member of the HVO, the paper that you said they gave
12 you for purposes of protection, that document was not true, was it?
13 A. It wasn't. It was forged, simply to sell me as a cover. It has
14 not been put on record anywhere.
15 Q. And do you have any knowledge, sir, that similar false or forged
16 documents were provided to other Muslims or other persons by Stela during
18 A. He gave papers to everybody for flats. He covered many Muslims.
19 Q. And so far as you know, were these statements -- are these papers
20 again to the effect that these persons, perhaps the men in these families,
21 were member of the HVO when, in fact, they were not?
22 A. Those were papers which said that the flat concerned is under his
24 Q. Well, how would it be the case, sir, if you can assist the Judges,
25 how would a flat, in a particular part of Mostar, be under Stela's
2 A. On my flat, it said that the flat is under the control of Benko
3 Penavic ATG, and my paper, the paper that I carried around, says that I'm
4 a member of the Benko Penavic ATG.
5 Q. All right. I appreciate that, sir. But can you give us some
6 additional insight, beyond that, to how it would be that a sign on your
7 door - and I'm just looking to use your words as much as possible- that
8 "the flat is under the control of Benko Penavic ATG"? How would it be
9 that that statement on your door would give you protection?
10 A. Any paper, either from the HVO or the military police or any unit
11 in the town of Mostar, was respected.
12 Q. All right. Now, the second of the two events that you told the
13 Judges about, in terms of times when Stela personally intervened in some
14 way in connection with you or perhaps on some other occasion, the time
15 that -- with the situation where a woman was evicted, you said, did I hear
16 you say that that was approximately three or four months after the
17 conflict in Mostar began?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. So if the conflict began in about the 9th or 10th of May, 1993, is
20 it your best recollection that that particular event happened sometime in
21 approximately August or September?
22 A. I cannot be quite precise because those were funny times, but ...
23 Q. But you would agree that your prior testimony and you're sticking
24 with your testimony as it were, sir, that it was some three or four months
25 after the events of about the 9th and 10th of May. Is that correct?
1 A. Well, I would say so. I cannot really affirm that, but I believe
2 somebody's already mentioned it so that perhaps the exact date is known,
3 because dates are not my strong point really.
4 Q. And can I also confirm, sir, if I heard your testimony correctly,
5 and I wasn't sure if you perhaps modified it at some point, that's why I'm
6 asking you, is it your testimony, sir, that you were never yourself at the
7 confrontation line in Mostar?
8 A. I wasn't, no. I was never at the confrontation line.
9 Q. Can we understand, sir, that whatever other assistance you may be
10 able to give to the Court, whatever other assistance you can give, you
11 simply have no information about anything that happened at the
12 confrontation line, no firsthand information? Is that correct?
13 A. It is.
14 Q. I want to touch back again briefly on the 9th and 10th of May. On
15 the 9th of May you stayed in your flat with your family. And again, if I
16 heard you well, you did not venture out that day at all. Is that correct?
17 A. It is.
18 Q. From your flat, could you see anything happening in Mostar on the
19 9th of May, or is it your testimony that you just simply saw nothing that
20 was happening that day?
21 A. From my flat, you cannot see what goes on. And all we could know
22 was that we heard the gunfire and - I don't know - shells. I don't know.
23 I mean, one could hear gunfire, but you can't see anything from there.
24 Q. I want to ask you a similar question, sir, about the first part of
25 July 1993, which perhaps you will recall was another date in which there
1 was a high level of armed activity of sorts. Where were you at about the
2 early part of July when these events happened?
3 A. I do not remember. Could you be more precise.
4 Q. All right. Sir, well, perhaps you will recall that there were at
5 least in the period from May to the end of June, beginning of July 1993,
6 two large events in which a number of Muslims in Mostar were arrested or
7 rounded up, if you will, perhaps other times in between. But those two
8 particular dates seem to be a matter of, I think, common knowledge among
9 those of us in the courtroom, and perhaps others. Do you remember a
10 second major wave of arrest of Muslims in Mostar about the 1st of July,
12 A. No.
13 Q. I want to ask you a few questions, sir, about your coming here as
14 a witness. I heard you say, and I want to know that I did hear you say,
15 and I want you to understand that you said when you heard about the
16 indictment you decided on your own you wanted to come and be a witness for
17 Mr. Martinovic. I understand that. But how did you express your
18 willingness to come as a witness? Who did you contact to actually make
19 the arrangements, get on the witness list, so to speak, and make the
20 arrangements to come to The Hague? Who did you contact for that?
21 A. His brother said if there is anything I can do, then I'll go and
22 testify. About a month or perhaps two later, his lawyers came, they
23 called me, and I communicated with them and I offered that if necessary, I
24 was ready to go to The Hague.
25 Q. Did Stela's brother come to you or contact you by telephone or
1 come to your flat or did you initiate contact with him?
2 A. I was the one who asked for a contact.
3 Q. Well, just tell us very briefly, how is it that you made that
4 contact then. Just describe to us. Did you pick up a telephone? Did you
5 see him in the street? How was it that you had contact with
6 Mr. Martinovic's brother about being a witness in The Hague?
7 A. His office is not far from where I am, and I was sitting in the
8 coffee bar and I saw some people I knew come in. I asked them what it's
9 about, and they said we're going to testify. And then I approached him
10 sitting quite near him. I said, "Then, why not me? Why didn't you call
11 me?" So I offered to come.
12 Q. Now, is it correct, sir, that you consider yourself to be good
13 friends with Mr. Martinovic, that is, Stela, and you consider yourself to
14 be good friends with him still today? Correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And is it correct, sir, can you confirm, in fact, that when you
17 came in to the courtroom a few minutes ago, an hour or so ago, in fact you
18 exchanged looks and smiles with Mr. Martinovic? Is that correct?
19 A. It is.
20 MR. SCOTT: Could I ask the witness to be shown the map that
21 Defence counsel used with the witness, so I can use the same -- with
22 counsel's permission, I would use the same map.
23 JUDGE LIU: Shall we go to the private session, Mr. Scott?
24 MR. SCOTT: Yes.
25 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we'll go to the private session, please.
1 [Private session]
13 Page 14238 – redacted – private session
13 Page 14239 – redacted – private session
13 Page 14240 – redacted – private session
19 [Open session]
20 MR. SCOTT:
21 Q. Whether you knew Mr. Takac or not, did you ever hear of an
22 incident where someone, whether it was Mr. Takac or someone else,
23 associated with Mr. Martinovic's unit, Stela's unit, assisted a former JNA
24 officer in crossing the confrontation line and then having him cross back
25 over again?
1 A. No.
2 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, I'm now going to page 4, item numbered
4 Q. Did you hear, ever, sir, that members of various ATG units in
5 Mostar were hiding many Muslims in the town and giving them protection in
6 exchange for financial gain?
7 A. No.
8 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, I'm now referring to page 2 of Exhibit
9 P588, toward the top of the page.
10 Q. Did you hear any discussion or have any information come to your
11 attention, sir, during Mostar during this time, that is, the summer and
12 fall of 1993, that both the Mrmak and the Benko Penavic ATGs were
13 frequently transferring civilians around Mostar and across the
14 confrontation line?
15 A. No.
16 MR. SCOTT: And finally in this regard, on Exhibit P664.1.
17 Q. Sir, did you ever hear of a situation of a woman named Delilovic
18 who was taken by Stela to the Croatian border and released there in
19 exchange for money? Or perhaps, let me correct that, exchange may have a
20 different -- released, she was released for which she or members of her
21 family had paid money?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Sir, it's correct, isn't it, that during the time when you were at
24 Stela's headquarters, again, at one point you said virtually every day,
25 there were never any members of the Red Cross or members of any other
1 international organisations that came to the headquarters, were there?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Yes, there were, is that there were international -- excuse me,
4 representatives of international organisations who came to the
5 headquarters? I'm not sure I understand your answer, sir.
6 A. You asked me if there were any Red Cross people, and I said yes.
7 Q. And can you tell us approximately when you recall these Red Cross
8 people coming to Stela's headquarters?
9 A. It was after the Dayton Accords.
10 Q. So sometime after 1995, then, sir?
11 A. Yes, or it could have been 1994, late that year.
12 Q. Sir, it's correct, isn't it, that during the times that you were
13 at Stela's headquarters in 1993, throughout that time period no
14 international organisation, no member of the Red Cross, no member of
15 something that you might know as the ECMM or the European Monitoring
16 Mission, no such individuals ever came to Stela's headquarters? Correct?
17 A. From what I could see, they would move down the street. But I
18 didn't see them park their vehicle and communicate with him.
19 Q. Isn't it correct, sir, that Mr. Martinovic would not allow any
20 international organisations in his area?
21 A. Well, they drove up and down in front of the base nonstop. As
22 about the rest, I don't know.
23 Q. What time period again, sir, are you talking about? When you
24 said "They were driving up and down in front of the base" what time period
25 were you talking about?
1 A. It was at the time when one could write by the Red Cross those
2 messages. One could send them. And that was in 1994, I think the latter
3 half when it became possible to write to one's kin, to one's people, when
4 everybody could write.
5 Q. Sir, is it correct that even as late as approximately June 1994,
6 Stela was keeping skilled prisoners at his headquarters, or about that
8 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr Par.
9 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] I think that we are entering an area
10 that falls outside the indictment and that should be disallowed for that
12 JUDGE LIU: Yes. I think that's outside the indictment.
13 Mr. Scott, you may rephrase your question.
14 MR. SCOTT:
15 Q. Well, is it correct, sir, that these prisoners, some of
16 these -- approximately these seven to ten prisoners that we've discussed
17 earlier, continued to work at or about Stela's headquarters in a work shop
18 or in a garage or around that area at least until the end of 1993?
19 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Par.
20 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] I object again because the term
21 "prisoners" is being used, and we do not know whether they were prisoners
22 at the time. I believe that the term should be "those people."
23 JUDGE LIU: Well, yes, let us use this term, "that seven to ten
24 people." We know who these people are, no matter we call them prisoners
25 or not.
1 MR. SCOTT:
2 Q. Did those individuals, sir, that we've talked about, and you know
3 I believe which ones, the seven to ten individuals that you've identified
4 earlier, the skilled labourers, the skilled workers, did they continue to
5 be at Stela's headquarters at least until the end of 1993?
6 A. I cannot tell you a precise date, but when an agreement was
7 reached that prisoners were to be released, he released them. And they
8 volunteered to work in Smajo Zikic's garage. They worked there and were
9 paid for their services. They didn't want to go anywhere else. They
10 stayed there to work. Those from Mostar went home to sleep at nights, the
11 others remained there. They were free to leave if they wanted to; they
12 just wanted to stay. I cannot talk about dates, but I know that when it
13 was said they should be released, they were released.
14 Q. But the problem is, sir, you just said you can't indicate dates.
15 So you don't know if that was sometime in the second half of 1994 or
16 1995. You don't know when that was. Is that what you're telling us?
17 A. I can't tell you the date, but in relation to the Dayton Accord,
18 and the signatures when the army and the HVO signed that agreement that
19 they should be released, that was when they were released.
20 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. President. No further questions.
21 JUDGE LIU: Any re-examination, Mr. Par?
22 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE LIU: Any questions from the Judges? Judge Clark.
24 Questions by the Court:
25 JUDGE CLARK: I don't have many questions, but I just would like
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 some clarification on a number of issues. When you were eventually given
2 a uniform, Mr. Witness, did it have any markings on it?
3 A. No.
4 JUDGE CLARK: Just a plain camouflage uniform, not even with HVO?
5 A. Yes. It was a camouflage HVO uniform. Everybody had the same
6 sort of uniform. It was the same sort of uniform worn by HVO soldiers.
7 They were all the same, camouflage uniforms.
8 JUDGE CLARK: Thank you. If I recollect your evidence correctly,
9 I believe you said that you worked during the conflict with the Serbs
10 providing a service to Mr. Vinko Martinovic as an electrician and to other
11 units as well. Where was Mr. Martinovic's headquarters during the Serb
13 A. The headquarters was across the road from the old hospital in
14 Mostar. That's the former military barracks.
15 JUDGE CLARK: Across from the hospital, is that near the hospital
16 that's near the Bulevar?
17 A. The Ero Hotel where the Bulevar is, when you go towards the
18 avenue, it's halfway towards it. So one might say it was near.
19 JUDGE CLARK: The Ero Hotel we've heard mentioned before. I think
20 it subsequently became the HVO headquarters, or certainly it played a role
21 during the war. Can I take it that the headquarters, then, was a totally
22 different place to the headquarters during the war after the 9th of May,
24 A. Yes.
25 JUDGE CLARK: You told us that you were subjected to a number of
1 eviction attempts. And on one occasion after the 9th of May, it's not the
2 10th of May, after I think you said it was two weeks later, a neighbour
3 sent the child on a bicycle to inform Mr. Martinovic what was happening.
4 It seemed to me that you were talking about the headquarters at Kalemova
5 Street. Am I correct in that?
6 A. Yes.
7 JUDGE CLARK: So by the middle of May, if I understand you
8 correctly, Mr. Vinko Martinovic had set up a headquarters in Kalemova
10 A. Yes.
11 JUDGE CLARK: And did I understand you correctly that on the
12 occasion that you went there, there were a couple of -- a few prisoners
13 there, and your information in relation to the arrest and detention of the
14 miscreants came from the prisoners?
15 A. I didn't understand your question.
16 JUDGE CLARK: Do you remember that you described to us that there
17 were a group of people who were pretending or misrepresenting themselves
18 to be part of Mr. Martinovic's unit? So I called them "miscreants," the
19 people who had committed the offence.
20 A. Yes.
21 JUDGE CLARK: Your information came from the prisoners in
23 My final question will require me, or the Court, to go into
24 private session, please.
25 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we'll go to the private session, please.
1 [Private session]
13 Page 14249 – redacted – private session
13 Page 14250 – redacted – private session
9 [Open session]
10 [The witness withdrew]
11 JUDGE LIU: At this stage, are there any documents to tender?
12 Mr. Par.
13 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Only this map, D2/32.
14 JUDGE LIU: I understand this might be used by both parties. Are
15 we going to give you one number, or double numbers? Mr. Scott.
16 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, I'm fine, the Prosecution is fine with
17 giving it one exhibit number with the Defence number as long as obviously
18 both sides, or all sides, can refer to it.
19 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. So that map D2/32 marked by the
20 witness is admitted into evidence. Mr. Scott, do you have any evidence to
22 MR. SCOTT: No, Your Honour. The way that it actually went. In
23 fact all the exhibits that were referred to that were on our list have
24 already been admitted.
25 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.
1 And this D2/31 is under seal as I understand.
2 MR. SCOTT: The marked map.
3 JUDGE LIU: The marked map.
4 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, may I have a moment of the Court's
6 JUDGE LIU: Of course.
7 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, Your Honours, unless something has
8 changed and I'm not aware of it, we only have two witnesses now to
9 complete between now and the end of our session on Thursday. I suspect
10 there's probably a very good chance that we will actually complete those
11 witnesses tomorrow, I would suspect. Which I don't think is bad news to
12 anyone perhaps. And I'm not suggesting otherwise. But the reason I
13 wanted to have some of your time now, do I want to raise some important
14 concerns that I think are very pressing for the purposes of planning the
15 sessions, when we immediately return from the recess. And I raise it now
16 because I don't want to wait even until next week, because of course, it
17 will be up to the Chamber to decide. But I'm going to suggest to the
18 Chamber that there may be some serious questions that need to be
19 addressed. And I don't want to put it off until the end of the day
20 tomorrow because there, again, human nature being what it is and all of us
21 being perhaps anxious to do other things, that we would then not get to it
22 at the end of the day tomorrow. So that's why I think since I don't think
23 we'll have any trouble completing the next two witnesses this week, I was
24 going to suggest to the Chamber that now may be a good as time as any to
25 raise some concerns with the Chamber, if I have the Court's permission.
1 JUDGE LIU: Any problems with Mr. Seric?
2 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I do have some
3 comments, and an objection. The Defence has its tempo, witnesses waiting
4 outside. I work quite fast, although I am not as optimistic as to assume
5 that we will finish at a quarter to 2.00 with this witness. Tomorrow,
6 there will be time left to raise any issues about the trial.
7 [Trial Chamber confers]
8 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Scott, we still have two days for two
9 witnesses, according to the speed we are now, I think we could finish the
10 last witness for this week tomorrow afternoon or Thursday morning. If we
11 finish that witness Thursday and we have plenty time to deal with those
13 MR. SCOTT: Of course, I'm in the Chamber's hands, Your Honour. I
14 don't want the week to somehow slip by and out of any ill will by anyone.
15 These are significant issues and I'm going to suggest to the Chamber
16 respectfully they are going to be more than five-minute issues. I'm not
17 suggesting that we get into it now, I'm not arguing with the Chamber at
18 all. But I do want to put it on the Chamber's agenda, because it will
19 have a definite impact potentially on the schedule when we return from
20 recess, in terms of some of the concerns that the Prosecution has. I will
21 put all those other concerns off, Mr. President, as you've directed, save
22 one short item, and that is we would like to receive, and again, because
23 potentially tomorrow will be our last session this week, we would like to
24 know the witnesses for next week. As I stand here before you right now, I
25 have no idea who is coming next week, and we would like to organise
1 ourselves. Thank you.
2 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We would like to ask Defence counsel to furnish
3 that list for next week by tomorrow. And we'll have time after we hear
4 the two witnesses this week to deal with the issue that might be raised by
5 the Prosecutor, no matter whether that will be tomorrow or the day after
7 Having said that, could we have the witness, please.
8 [The witness entered court]
9 JUDGE LIU: Good afternoon, Witness. Can you hear me.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
11 JUDGE LIU: Would you make the solemn declaration in accordance
12 with the paper the usher is showing to you.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
14 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
15 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. You may sit down, please.
16 Mr. Seric, we have to finish this morning's sitting at quarter to
17 2.00 sharply. Thank you. You may proceed.
18 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
19 WITNESS: WITNESS MH
20 [Witness answered through interpreter]
21 Examined by Mr. Seric:
22 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, the Chamber has granted protective measures
23 so that your image will be distorted, your voice will also be distorted
24 and you will have a pseudonym. To begin with, the usher will show you a
25 sheet of paper with your first and last name. Please don't read it out
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 loud, but simply say "yes" if it's correct.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. I will put questions to you. Please look at the light on the
4 microphone. When I switch my microphone off, the light will go out, and
5 only then should you begin your answer.
6 First, I will ask you for some information about you personally.
7 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] And so I request, Mr. President,
8 that we go into private session.
9 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we'll go to the private session, please.
10 [Private session]
5 [Open session]
6 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Witness, can you tell us briefly what happened to you during the
8 Serbian aggression against Mostar? How did you spend that period, and
9 were you active in the military?
10 A. I stayed at home. I was not active in the military. I did my
11 job. I walked around Balinovac, where my friends were.
12 Q. Do you remember the 9th of May when the conflict broke out between
13 the army of BH and the HVO in Mostar? Where were you and what happened to
14 you on that day?
15 A. On that day, the 9th of May, in the morning, some soldiers came.
16 They took me out of my house and sent me to the Velez stadium. I spent
17 the whole day there. And in the evening, they took me to the Ero Hotel.
18 And on the following morning, they put me in a bus and took me to the
19 Heliodrom. I spent about nine days there, and a friend of mine whom I
20 knew from before, got me out and took me home. He brought me home in the
21 afternoon, and the following morning, I didn't know what to do. So I went
22 to look for Stela to see what I would do next. And he told me, there
23 would be no problem. He told me to go home. He asked me if I needed any
24 money. He gave me some money. And I went home. I bought some food
25 because there was nothing in the house. And that's it.
1 Q. Did you have any work in your workshop after that? It was
2 wartime after at all.
3 A. Well, there was work from time to time.
4 Q. Did anyone threaten you in that period?
5 A. On one occasion, a soldier came by car. It was a big car, and he
6 wanted us to repair his car. He was a little drunk, and he threatened
7 me. He said, "If his car was not ready by evening, he would kill us," me
8 and a friend of mine. It was impossible to repair the car by the evening,
9 and I told him it wasn't possible to repair the car in one day, that there
10 was at least two days' work. He said: "I don't care. I'm going to a
11 cafe to have a drink, and if it's not ready by evening, I'll kill you." I
12 said to my friend: "I don't know what to do. I'll go to Stela's and see
13 if he can intervene." I went to Stela's headquarters where he had
14 meetings and I told him that a soldier had threatened to kill me if I
15 didn't fix his car on the same day and there was no way that could be
17 He told me and my friend to stay in his headquarters, and he went
18 to look for that soldier with some of his men. After a certain time had
19 elapsed, his soldier came to fetch my friend and me and took us back to
20 our workshop. When we got there, we saw Stela and the soldier who had
21 threatened me. And he said: "There's no problem. Everything is all
22 right. Repair the car when you can." And so things after that went
24 Q. Throughout that period, especially in late 1993 and early 1994,
25 did anything happen in your immediate family that caused you to go to
1 Stela for help again?
2 A. Yes. In March 1994, my mother died. At that time, it was
3 wartime, and I didn't know how to arrange for a funeral. I went to look
4 for Stela, and I told him my mother had died. I asked him to help me bury
5 her according to the Islamic law. He said to me: "There's no problem.
6 Do you need anything?" He said he would give me whatever I needed. He
7 also gave me some money. I went home and arranged for the Muslim
8 funeral. There was a hodza who came to officiate. And everything was
9 done at Stela's expense. At that time, it was unimaginable to have a
10 Muslim funeral for a Bosniak family in that part of Mostar. All that
11 ended well, and I am still grateful to Stela.
12 Q. Do you know of any other examples where Vinko Martinovic helped
14 A. Yes, the whole area up from, Djikovina and all the families,
15 everybody there said how Stela had helped them, how he had brought
16 them home from a medical school, there are quite a number of families who
17 are grateful to Stela for what he did for them.
18 Q. And have you heard of stories about Stela and Stelici, Stela's
19 boys, persecuting Muslims?
20 A. Yes, I heard it on various occasions. Once Stela had brought his
21 car to me to do some repairs. It was very hot that day, and he gave me
22 some money to go and get a beer in a shop. And the shop is quite near,
23 not less than a one metres away from my work shop. So I went to get that
24 beer, and there were lots of people in that shop. And I heard them
25 talking. Stela, he's rounding people up around the market and so on and
1 so forth. And I took those beer bottles and said: "Listen, people, Stela
2 is at my place in the garage with his car. He gave me the money to buy
3 beer, and I'll be off. So go out and you'll see him. He'll be passing by
4 in 20 minutes' time" and they just stayed mum. And those are only
5 stories, Stela does this, and Stela does that, but Stela is at a
6 completely different place.
7 Q. Did you have any knowledge that prisoners from the Heliodrom came
8 to work at Vinko Martinovic's base?
9 A. Yes, I knew that. There were three or four of those prisoners.
10 Well, they were called prisoners, but they had nothing. They worked in my
11 garage. They walked around freely, nobody guarded them. Nothing, they
12 had what to eat, they had what to drink.
13 Q. Did you pay them when they worked at your place?
14 A. Well, at times somebody paid, and then we bought -- we would buy
15 meat together and then make barbecues and ...
16 Q. That house and that workshop, how far is it from Vinko
17 Martinovic's base?
18 A. Less than 10 minutes on foot.
19 Q. Could you see what happened to those prisoners who were at the
21 A. Well, yes, I can because they move about freely. Nothing. They
22 walked around, and I know how they patronised various coffee bars and
23 they were left alone.
24 Q. But the indictment says that it was Stela's private prison.
25 A. I don't think so.
1 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Believe it or not, Your Honours, I
2 am done. I have finished my direct examination.
3 JUDGE LIU: I think that's the record time in these proceedings.
4 Any cross-examination?
5 MR. SCOTT: Yes, Your Honour. But I will not finish it in ten
7 JUDGE LIU: Of course not.
8 Cross-examined by Mr. Scott:
9 Q. Sir --
10 MR. SCOTT: If a clean version of 11.18 could be shown to the
12 Q. Counsel didn't ask you to mark the map but I will because I just
13 think it's going to be better in the long run if we have maps marked.
14 If you can, sir, if you can look at the map that's to your right
15 now, and orient yourself for a moment. What I'm going to ask you to do is
16 to mark --
17 THE INTERPRETER: We are sorry. We could not hear the witness.
18 MR. SCOTT: My apologies.
19 I think he needs his glasses.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right, yes.
21 MR. SCOTT:
22 Q. Sir, could you look at the map, orient yourself for a moment,
23 please, as best you can, and can you find on the map approximately, and it
24 doesn't have to be terribly precise, but as close as you can where your
25 house -- where your residence was located during 1993 --
1 MR. SCOTT: I'm sorry, Mr. President. In private session.
2 JUDGE LIU: We'll go to the private session, please.
3 [Private session]
13 Page 14263 – redacted – private session
13 Page 14264 – redacted – private session
16 [Open session]
17 JUDGE LIU: And during your stay here in The Hague, do not talk to
18 anybody and do not let anybody talk to you about your testimony because
19 you are still under the oath. Do you understand that?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do.
21 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.
22 We'll resume in Courtroom I tomorrow afternoon.
23 [The witness stands down]
24 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
25 1.45 p.m., to be reconvened on Wednesday,
1 the 24th day of July, 2002, at 2.15 p.m.