Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 14267

 1                          Wednesday, 24 July 2002

 2                          [Open session]

 3                          [The accused entered court]

 4                          [The witness entered court]

 5                          --- Upon commencing at 2.18 p.m.

 6            JUDGE LIU:  Call the case, please, Madam Registrar.

 7            THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  This is case number

 8    IT-98-34-T, the Prosecutor versus Naletilic and Martinovic.

 9            JUDGE LIU:  Thank you very much.  I see Mr. Naletilic is not

10    present at this moment.

11            Yes, Mr. Krsnik.

12            MR. KRSNIK:  [Interpretation] You are quite right, Your Honour.

13    The registry has informed me that Mr. Naletilic does not feel well and

14    cannot come.  But we can continue without him.  As you know, we have

15    reached that understanding.

16            JUDGE LIU:  Thank you very much.  Then we'll continue with the

17    proceedings.  Yes, Mr. Scott.

18            MR. SCOTT:  Thank you, Mr. President.

19                          WITNESS:  WITNESS MH [Resumed]

20                          [Witness answered through interpreter]

21                          Cross-examined by Mr. Scott: [Continued]

22       Q.   Witness, I want to go over some of the matters you discussed

23    yesterday in a bit more detail.  What was the nature of your relationship,

24    if any, with Mr. Martinovic, Stela, and with his family, before the war?

25       A.   We were friends.  We used to play together.  We were good

Page 14268

 1    friends.  There is a place in Balinovac where we all got together, all

 2    those pals from the area, playing football, sitting there chatting, and

 3    I've known him for a long time.

 4       Q.   All right.  When you say the two of you were friends and played

 5    together, you're talking about you and Stela personally; correct?

 6       A.   Well, there were a number of us.  Those were all the young guys

 7    from Balinovac.  That was the place where we all got together, socialised.

 8       Q.   During the war in 1993, after the time when you were released in

 9    about May 1993, did you continue to consider yourself to be close friends

10    with Stela during the war?

11       A.   Yes, I did, because as soon as I left the airport and I spent nine

12    days there, I called him and he helped me and did everything for me, gave

13    me some money, took me home, said, "Don't worry.  Everything will be

14    fine."

15       Q.   And since the war ended, and we'll just say roughly since the

16    Dayton Agreement in 1995, do you consider yourself to continue to be

17    friends with Mr. Martinovic, to the present time?

18       A.   I do, yes.

19       Q.   Now, I want to direct your attention, please, to the 9th of May,

20    the day that you say, if I heard you correctly, you were arrested.  Will

21    you tell us a bit more about how it was that you came to be arrested?

22    They came to your house and took you out, or can you just describe for us

23    a bit more how it was that you were taken into custody.

24       A.   It happened in the morning, around half past 5.00 or 6.00 on the

25    9th of May.  There was a lot of gunfire, and I dressed to go out and see

Page 14269

 1    where was this happening, because I was in a room with my mother.  And as

 2    I was about to open the door, when some soldiers turned up, must have

 3    forced me to get out of the house and directed me towards the stadium.

 4       Q.   You said just now that it was about half past 5.00 or 6.00 that

 5    you heard, presumably what sounded like fighting, gunshots or artillery,

 6    and you got up and got dressed.  Approximately how long after 5.30 or 6.00

 7    that morning were you then taken into custody by these soldiers?  Was it a

 8    half hour later, two or three hours later?  As best you can recall, sir.

 9       A.   They simply drove us out of the house and took us to the stadium,

10    to the Velez Stadium.  That is where they took us.

11       Q.   Yes, but I'm asking you at the moment about the timing.  How soon

12    after you woke and dressed yourself did these soldiers come and take you

13    away?

14       A.   It was right before the daybreak.

15       Q.   And you were taken to the Velez stadium and then can you give the

16    Judges some idea of the number of people?  Obviously nobody expects you to

17    give a precise number, but what did you see when you got to the Velez

18    stadium?  Approximately how many other people were gathered there at that

19    time?  Excuse me, Witness.  Excuse me, Witness.  We may be having some

20    technical problems.

21            JUDGE DIARRA: [Interpretation] The French booth is asking the

22    witness to come closer to the microphone.  That is it.  Could the witness

23    please come closer to the microphone.  This was the request from the

24    French booth.

25            MR. SCOTT:

Page 14270

 1       Q.   All right, sir.  Let me repeat my question.  When you were taken

 2    to Velez Stadium that morning, approximately how many other people such as

 3    yourself had been gathered there when either at the time you first arrived

 4    or perhaps in the course of the time that you were held there, before

 5    being taken anywhere else?

 6       A.   Well, quite a lot of people.  They were coming.  I don't know how

 7    many.  Two hundred, 150.  I guess people were coming and going.

 8       Q.   And how was it that people were then taken from the stadium?  What

 9    arrangements did you see in place in terms of taking people from the

10    stadium or pitch to someplace else?

11       A.   I was taken away in a bus to the Ero Hotel, and I spent one night

12    there, and in the morning they again put us on buses and took us to the

13    Heliodrom.

14       Q.   When you were at the Velez Stadium still, approximately how many

15    of these buses did you see there?

16       A.   Well, they were coming in twos, sometimes one by one, one at a

17    time.

18       Q.   So you were held, then, for a time, or at least one night, you

19    said, at the Ero Hotel, and then were you taken the next day to the

20    Heliodrom?

21       A.   That's right.

22       Q.   Now, I want to direct your attention forward to the first part of

23    July in 1993.  What were you doing around that time, if you recall?

24       A.   1993, you mean?

25       Q.   Yes, sir.  If it assists you, I think, as I mentioned yesterday in

Page 14271

 1    another context, I think there will be agreement that there were two

 2    substantial instances of arrest, large-scale arrest, first in May and then

 3    again at the 1st of July.  So I'm referring -- if it assists your memory,

 4    sir, I'm referring to the events in early July, when there were another --

 5    there was another set or sequence of arrests.  And if you could recall for

 6    us, please, what you were doing around that time.

 7            JUDGE LIU:  Yes.  Yes, Mr. Seric.

 8            MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I'm not even trying to

 9    say that cross-examination could be as short as my direct examination.

10    However, I know -- perhaps it may sound strange, that the witness for the

11    Defence is a Bosniak Muslim testifying in favour of my client.  However,

12    in the direct examination, this witness testified about specific points

13    that the Defence has set out to prove.  This is not a witness for the

14    Prosecution to prove something that the Prosecution has already tried to

15    prove, that there was some waves of persecution, or something.  And I

16    believe that the Prosecution should focus on what was covered by the

17    direct examination of this witness.  Thank you.

18            JUDGE LIU:  Well --

19            MR. SCOTT:  Mr. President -- sorry.  Please.

20            JUDGE LIU:  Well, the question asked by -- in the

21    cross-examination is not necessarily confined within the scope of the

22    direct examination, and we believe that those questions asked by the

23    Prosecution are relevant to this case, and we are also interested to hear

24    the answer from this witness as for those details.

25            You may proceed.

Page 14272

 1            MR. SCOTT:  All right.

 2       Q.   Sir, again, all I'm trying to do is assist you in focusing on a

 3    particular period of time.  If you can recall to the early part of July

 4    1993, what were you doing in Mostar around that time?

 5       A.   I was at home, hiding.  I didn't go out at all.  You know what it

 6    was like in Mostar.  There were troops there.

 7       Q.   Why were you hiding in early July?

 8       A.   Well, what do I know?  Because they were coming there all the

 9    time, and I didn't want to be taken away again.

10       Q.   Well, who was coming all the time?

11       A.   Well, they were passing through, troops, I mean, soldiers, and

12    they were rounding up people and taking them to the Heliodrom.  And I went

13    only once to the base, to Stela's, to ask him, but he said, "No, no, no.

14    Don't worry.  Go home, but stay there and there will be no problem."

15       Q.   All right.  So perhaps we've established you stayed in your home

16    in early July, but were you looking out the windows?  Were you seeing what

17    was happening?  What did you see happening at that time, as you say, when

18    all these people were coming to collect people?  What did you see?

19       A.   What I saw?  I simply saw troops passing by.  I was on the

20    outskirts.  I wasn't in the centre.  They didn't come much to where I was.

21       Q.   And why is that?

22       A.   Could you repeat, please?  I didn't understand.

23       Q.   Yes.  You said they didn't come primarily to -- or mostly to the

24    area that you were, and my question was:  Why not?  What was it about your

25    area, the place where you lived, that would cause them not to come there?

Page 14273

 1       A.   I don't know why they didn't come often.  How can I know?

 2       Q.   Sir, can you tell the Judges, please:  When did you first have

 3    contact with anyone about the possibility of appearing as a witness here

 4    for Mr. Martinovic, Stela?

 5       A.   Well, I watched television and media, and in the media I saw these

 6    indictments against Vinko Martinovic, Stela, and I went right away to

 7    Vinko Martinovic's father and his brother and said, "If you ever need

 8    anything, to testify for Stela, count me as number one."  Why?  Because he

 9    was good to me when I needed it most, when my mother died, and one does

10    not forget that, and I'll never forget it as long as I live.  And he also

11    helped me.  I survived.  So I said, "Whatever may be necessary, whatever I

12    can do, I'll go.  I'll even walk there, if need be."  Because he was very

13    good to me, and I will never forget it.  He helped me and my family and

14    everybody.

15       Q.   So when you say "after the indictment" you saw something on

16    television after the indictment, you're saying sometime in early 1998?

17    When did you see this and when did you go to the Martinovic family to

18    offer your assistance?

19       A.   2000.  2000.  If necessary, I will go.  Perhaps a little earlier.

20       Q.   And you went to the Martinovic residence to communicate this

21    information; is that what you're telling us?

22       A.   Yes.  I went there, and I went to Jadranko's, Stela's brother, to

23    his premises, and I said the same thing to him.

24       Q.   All right.  Now, turning to the time after you were released from

25    the Heliodrom, again, it wasn't completely clear to me what your

Page 14274

 1    involvement was, if any, with Mr. Martinovic or his unit during the summer

 2    and fall of 1993.  Now, you've told us you were a car electrician.  Is

 3    that correct?

 4       A.   It is.

 5       Q.   Did you perform electrical work, electrical repair work or other

 6    work on vehicles for Stela or his unit?

 7       A.   I did now and then, yes.

 8       Q.   All right.  Well, you say "now and then."  Was that a frequent --

 9    something you did frequently or would you say that in the summer, for

10    example, of 1993 you might have only done it two or three times?

11       A.   A number of times.  I had my workshop there, and they always came

12    to me to repair whatever was needed for them, because I was the only car

13    electrician there at the time.

14       Q.   You say you had your workshop "there."  Did you have a workshop

15    somewhere near your residence or did you have a workshop at or near the

16    Vinko Skrobo unit headquarters?

17       A.   I had my workshop in the house in which I lived.

18       Q.   And did you do this work only for Stela and his unit or did you

19    perform this electrical work, repair work, for other HVO units as well?

20       A.   I did it for other soldiers who came there.  I couldn't --

21    whenever somebody came, I had to work for him, to repair it.  One of them

22    who came almost killed me.  Had it not been for Vinko Martinovic, Stela,

23    he would have.

24       Q.   Approximately how long, then, if we look through 1993 and

25    thereafter, approximately how long, then, did you continue to provide your

Page 14275

 1    services to Stela and his unit?

 2       A.   I worked whenever necessary.  I was there all the time.  Whenever

 3    one of them came, I worked.  I don't know about time.  There was a war on.

 4       Q.   Were you ever -- apart from perhaps if it was on the occasion when

 5    you requested some assistance from Stela, were you ever at his

 6    headquarters on Kalemova Street.  Were you ever at his headquarters more

 7    than once?

 8       A.   At times, but not too often.

 9       Q.   Were you ever at a place called the health centre, on the

10    confrontation line in Mostar, during 1993?

11       A.   No.

12       Q.   And in fact, sir, were you ever at the confrontation line,

13    anywhere along the line, during the summer and fall of 1993?

14       A.   Yes.  Only once, when I had to switch on a car for one of the

15    soldiers.

16       Q.   Do you recall approximately where, what part of the confrontation

17    line that was?

18       A.   It's before the line, over there, in Podhum.  That area is

19    called Podhum.

20       Q.   All right.  So it wasn't actually on a confrontation line itself,

21    even on that particular occasion; is that right?

22       A.   It is.  Yes, yes.  You are quite right.

23       Q.   Now, did you, when you were at the times -- excuse me.  At the

24    time when you may have been at Stela's headquarters or working at some

25    other location, did you come to know any of the Muslim prisoners who were

Page 14276

 1    being held or brought to Stela's headquarters from time to time?  Did you

 2    know any of those prisoners.  Did you work with them, for instance, on car

 3    repair?

 4       A.   I knew, and they came to my place, to my house, that is, to my

 5    workshop, to work.

 6       Q.   Let me mention a few names to you and see if you recall having

 7    worked with or known any of these individuals.  Did you ever know a man

 8    named Admir Satanic?

 9       A.   No.

10       Q.   Edin Huskovic?

11       A.   Yes.

12       Q.   Did you know Mr. Huskovic in the context of, again, someone

13    providing mechanical services to Stela and his unit?

14       A.   Yes, Edin Huskovic.

15       Q.   Did you know a man named Semir Redzic?

16       A.   No.

17            MR. SCOTT:  Mr. President, if we could go to private session for a

18    couple of these names, please, again out of an abundance of caution.

19            JUDGE LIU:  Yes.  We'll go to the private session, please.

20                          [Private session]

21   [redacted]

22   [redacted]

23   [redacted]

24   [redacted]

25   [redacted]

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Page 14278

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 7  [redacted]

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10  [redacted]

11  [redacted]

12  [redacted]

13  [redacted]

14  [redacted]

15                          [Open session]

16            MR. SCOTT:

17       Q.   Sir, were you aware of what was happening in connection with East

18    Mostar during the summer and fall of 1993?  For example, did you realise

19    it was under siege?

20       A.   I don't know.  I realised that, but I stayed at home.  I didn't go

21    anywhere.  I knew there was a siege.  There was a war.

22       Q.   Was there not regular shelling and sniping going on into East

23    Mostar?

24       A.   There was shooting.  I don't know.  There were all kinds of

25    things.  There was shooting from both sides.

Page 14279

 1       Q.   Were you aware, sir, that food and water had been cut off from

 2    East Mostar?

 3       A.   No, I didn't.  I didn't know.

 4            JUDGE LIU:  Mr. Scott, what's the relevance of these questions?

 5            MR. SCOTT:  Your Honour, the ability, both the ability and the

 6    tendency or inclination whether this witness -- what this witness did

 7    observe or didn't observe and what he's willing to tell us and not tell

 8    us, and I don't want to argue it in front of the witness more than that.

 9            JUDGE CLARK:  Mr. Scott, the poor man, in common with many other

10    Muslims during the war, was trying to stay alive, keep his head down.

11            MR. SCOTT:  Absolutely, Judge Clark. No suggestion to the

12    contrary.  Again, as I said, to determine certain aspects, which I won't

13    argue at the time unless Your Honours tell me to.

14       Q.   Sir, before we move on, I'm required to put certain things to you,

15    and I will ask you these in terms of:  Were you ever aware or did you ever

16    hear that Stela was involved in smuggling or moving civilians through the

17    confrontation line or getting them out of Mostar in exchange for money?

18       A.   No.

19       Q.   Did you ever hear that either Mr. Martinovic himself, Stela, or

20    members of his unit, the ATG, were hiding Muslims and protecting them, and

21    again in exchange for financial gain?

22       A.   No.

23       Q.   Did you ever hear a discussion about there being so-called private

24    prisoners that were being kept by the ATG to perform work as units with

25    the military units or performing work privately for members of those

Page 14280

 1    units?

 2       A.   No, I've never heard of that, never.

 3            THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please come closer to the

 4    microphone.

 5            MR. SCOTT:

 6       Q.   Sir, the final set of questions, going back to the time when you

 7    were arrested and released from custody.  You told us -- you've told us

 8    now that you were arrested on the 9th of May, 1993, you were held for

 9    approximately nine days.  Is that correct?

10       A.   Correct.

11       Q.   And so you were released sometime, approximately, around the 18th

12    of May, 1993.

13       A.   Yes, that's right.

14       Q.   Can you tell the Judges how it was that you were released?

15       A.   Before the war, I used to work at my workshop in my house as a

16    private businessman.  Many of my friends came to have their cars

17    repaired.  And when I came to the Heliodrom, one of my friends noticed me

18    and they asked me, "How come you're here?"  And then he said, "No

19    problems.  Just rest in peace."  And he came the following day.  He put me

20    in his car and he brought me home.

21       Q.   He came -- sorry.  This man came to you at the Heliodrom and then

22    drove you away in his private car?

23       A.   He was working at the Heliodrom.  He was working there.  He saw

24    me.

25       Q.   Well, did you understand -- perhaps you don't know, sir, but did

Page 14281












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Page 14282

 1    you understand that this man talked to someone in authority or made

 2    arrangements to have you released from the Heliodrom, or are you telling

 3    the Judges that he just simply walked in, collected you, and drove away

 4    from the Heliodrom with you?

 5       A.   Well, he noticed me down there in the Heliodrom during the

 6    daylight.  He asked me, "How did you end up here?"  And he said, "I'll

 7    see, either tonight or tomorrow, and I will arrange for you to be

 8    released," and he did that on the following day.  Because he was a very

 9    good friend of mine.

10            MR. SCOTT:  Mr. President, perhaps we should go to private session

11    for a moment.

12            JUDGE LIU:  Yes.  We'll go to the private session, please.

13                          [Private session]

14  [redacted]

15  [redacted]

16  [redacted]

17  [redacted]

18  [redacted]

19  [redacted]

20  [redacted]

21  [redacted]

22  [redacted]

23  [redacted]

24  [redacted]

25  [redacted]

Page 14283

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 5  [redacted]

 6  [redacted]

 7  [redacted]

 8  [redacted]

 9                          [Open session]

10            JUDGE LIU:  Now we are in the open session.

11            MR. SCOTT:  I didn't seem to have a problem myself, so if it

12    persists, of course let me know and we'll try to test it.

13       Q.   Sir, did you have any dealings around the time you were released

14    with?

15            JUDGE LIU:  There's some problem.

16                          [Technical difficulty]

17            MR. SCOTT:  Apparently, the technical booth, we're not getting

18    transmission.

19            Hello.

20            THE INTERPRETER:  Can you hear me now?

21            MR. SCOTT:  All right.  Thank you very much.

22       Q.   Sir, about the time that you were released, either before you were

23    released or after you were released, did you ever have any knowledge of or

24    dealings with a man named Juka Prazina?

25       A.   No.

Page 14284

 1       Q.   Did you know whether there were any Muslim women being held at the

 2    Heliodrom during the time that you were being held during those nine

 3    days?  Was it just men or did you see women as well?

 4       A.   There were women.

 5       Q.   Were there any women there that you knew from your neighbourhood

 6    or that you knew in general, from Mostar?

 7       A.   From my neighbourhood.

 8       Q.   Did you happen to see a woman there by the name of Vanesa Kapic?

 9       A.   No.

10       Q.   Now, at the time that you were still held there, before you were

11    released, isn't it fair to say, sir, that various Muslims were being

12    released from the Heliodrom on essentially a daily basis during this time?

13       A.   I don't know.

14       Q.   You think, sir, that during this time period you were the only one

15    that was released, the only Muslim prisoner who was released along the

16    lines that you've described to us?

17       A.   No, I don't think so.

18       Q.   Well, let me just ask a couple more questions.  Do you recall, for

19    instance, were some of the Muslim prisoners released because they were

20    friends of certain Croats?

21       A.   Yes, there were such cases.

22       Q.   Did you ever hear of cases where Muslim prisoners were released

23    because they somehow were friends with Mate Boban?

24       A.   No.  No, I haven't heard.

25       Q.   Did you hear of any Muslim prisoners being released because

Page 14285

 1    someone gave something called a "guarantee" for them?

 2       A.   No, I didn't hear any of these things.  I don't know.

 3       Q.   All right.  Let me not use the word "guarantee."  Did you

 4    understand that any of the Muslim prisoners had been released because

 5    someone had paid money to have them released?

 6       A.   I don't know.

 7       Q.   Sir, it's been said in this courtroom that words to the effect, if

 8    not the exact quote - I don't want to be accused of misquoting it, but

 9    words to the effect that "everyone had his Muslims."  If you can, sir,

10    what does that phrase mean to you, or have you heard anything like that

11    said before?

12            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, Mr. Seric.

13            MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I think that it's

14    really not necessary that I make an objection.  This question, as much as

15    it requires speculation, it even asks the witness to state who said what

16    and what they thought.

17            MR. SCOTT:  No.  No, Mr. President.

18            JUDGE LIU:  Well, the Prosecution asked the witness whether he has

19    ever heard anything like that said before.  If the witness has not heard

20    anything, he can say no.  Let's hear the answer from this witness.

21            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know if anyone gave

22    anything.  I don't know.

23            MR. SCOTT:

24       Q.   All right.  Sir, let me repeat my question, in light of the

25    intervention.  Around the time that you were being held, sir, or in this

Page 14286

 1    time generally, in the summer of 1993, or during these terrible events of

 2    what was happening in Mostar on all sides, did you hear anything use the

 3    phrase anything like:  "Everyone had his Muslims"?

 4       A.   No, I haven't.

 5            MR. SCOTT:  I'd like the witness to please be shown --

 6    Mr. President, the Chamber may note, and counsel may note, that I have in

 7    fact skipped over a number of possible exhibits, but I will only use one,

 8    and that will be my last set of questions.  Exhibit P401.1, which is one

 9    of the bundles -- yes, that's it.

10       Q.   Sir, I've handed you this document, and there is, I can see from

11    here --

12            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, Mr. Seric.

13            MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] I received this just now.  My

14    colleague started yesterday with cross-examination, and I could have

15    received this before the session.  I don't think there was any problem,

16    any obstacle with that.  This is a principled objection.

17            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Honourable Chamber, if the honourable

18    Prosecutor could please explain where this came from.  There is no

19    signature.  There is no seal.  It could have come from anywhere.  I'm

20    sorry that I didn't do that during cross-examination.  However, we still

21    have to learn all the time in this court.  I could have written this

22    myself and then claim that it has been given to me by the government of

23    Croatia, by the secret service of the Croatian people, just like the

24    Prosecutor is doing.  Can we know what is the foundation?  Who wrote

25    this?  From whose notebook this came?  Honourable Judge, I see that you

Page 14287

 1    are shaking your head, and I'm very disappointed.  My question is very

 2    clear.  But maybe I lack knowledge.  I want to know who wrote this.

 3            JUDGE CLARK:  I think the president has something to say to you,

 4    Mr. Krsnik, now.  You're really on thin ice.  [Microphone not activated]

 5            THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone Judge Clark.

 6            JUDGE CLARK:  Sorry.  We're going to have to start imposing fines

 7    or something, but I think Judge Liu has something to say to you.

 8            JUDGE LIU:  Well, first of all, as to the use of the documents,

 9    this is our answer to Mr. Seric, that made a ruling that in the

10    cross-examination, if possible, those documents used in the proceedings

11    should be furnished to the Chamber and to the other parties.  But

12    sometimes it's very difficult to prejudge the outcome of

13    cross-examination.  There may be some questions in the answer of the

14    witness that need some document.  I think you are even luckier than us,

15    because I haven't got that document myself yet.  Mr. Krsnik, let's hear

16    the answer from this witness.  If you have some difficulties with these

17    documents, you are entitled to raise this issue during the admission of

18    this document, but we would not like to delay the proceedings on debating

19    the authenticity of this document at this moment, and you should not stand

20    up repeatedly on the same issue.

21            Yes, Mr. Prosecutor.  You may proceed.

22            MR. SCOTT:

23       Q.   Sir, if I can direct your attention, please, to the top of the

24    first page of the Croatian language version, and I think I can see from

25    here that you have that.  You see the first four names, and there is a --

Page 14288

 1    well, we should probably go to private session, Mr. President?

 2            JUDGE LIU:  Yes.  We'll go to the private session, please.

 3                          [Private session]

 4  [redacted]

 5  [redacted]

 6  [redacted]

 7  [redacted]

 8  [redacted]

 9  [redacted]

10  [redacted]

11  [redacted]

12  [redacted]

13  [redacted]

14  [redacted]

15  [redacted]

16  [redacted]

17  [redacted]

18  [redacted]

19  [redacted]

20  [redacted]

21  [redacted]

22  [redacted]

23  [redacted]

24  [redacted]

25  [redacted]

Page 14289













13  Page 14289 – redacted – private session













Page 14290













13  Page 14290 – redacted – private session













Page 14291

 1  [redacted]

 2  [redacted]

 3  [redacted]

 4  [redacted]

 5  [redacted]

 6  [redacted]

 7  [redacted]

 8  [redacted]

 9  [redacted]

10                          [Open session]

11                          Questioned by the Court:

12            JUDGE CLARK:  Mr. Witness, I'm intrigued by some of your evidence,

13    because you described before the war a very happy integration of the

14    ethnic groups in your part of Mostar.  Has that friendship continued to

15    the present day?  Do the groups still mix with the same degree of

16    friendship as they did before the war, in your neighbourhood?

17       A.   In mine, yes.  Sure.

18            JUDGE CLARK:  It's a pity that somebody in your neighbourhood

19    doesn't go on television or radio and teach the rest of the former

20    Yugoslavia the recipe, because it's wonderful to hear that for us, that

21    there were people who got on so well before the war, during the war, and

22    afterwards.  It's refreshing to hear that, because it seems pretty

23    unique.

24       A.   Before the war, life was fine, and we all lived together, and

25    nobody bothered to know who or what is the next one.  We lived together,

Page 14292

 1    worked together, drank together.  Nobody ever asked about anyone's

 2    origins.  Now it's a little bit different, but it is getting better.  I

 3    have my neighbours, and we're all fine, and we're talking nicely, and

 4    nobody holds any grudges against anyone.  That is how it is in the town.

 5            JUDGE CLARK:  Thank you.  If I could lead on to something else.

 6    You described how, before the war, you had your job, you had your little

 7    workshop at the house, and you lived with your mother.  Did your brother

 8    also live with you and share the same trade?

 9       A.   My brother worked for a company.

10            JUDGE CLARK:  The reason I'm asking you this, Mr. Witness, is that

11    I'm curious as to know why somebody who lived with his mother in her room

12    and had obviously a good position would suddenly find himself, when in

13    the tragic situation of the death of his mother, being unable to pay for

14    the funeral.  Were your funds taken from you during the nine days of your

15    incarceration?

16       A.   Well, when I came I didn't have a lot of money.  One had to have

17    money to eat, to drink something.  One needed to have something.  So I

18    didn't have money.  There was the Serb war, then the war between Croats

19    and Muslims, and whatever money one had was spent, and there wasn't much

20    work.  One couldn't really earn much.

21            JUDGE CLARK:  I see.  Now, in relation to your workshop, you -- in

22    translation - and I don't know whether this was a direct translation of

23    what you said - you described how you had to keep your workshop open; you

24    were at your workshop every day; you had to do it.  Was there some

25    compulsion on someone's part for you to be there at your workshop just in

Page 14293

 1    case any work was needed?

 2       A.   No compulsion, but I needed something to live on.  Somebody gave

 3    me this, somebody gave me that, and that is how you made your ends meet.

 4    Because I couldn't go anywhere.  How could I?

 5            JUDGE CLARK:  Can I go into private session for a minute, please?

 6            JUDGE LIU:  Yes.  We'll go to the private session, please.

 7                          [Private session]

 8  [redacted]

 9  [redacted]

10  [redacted]

11  [redacted]

12  [redacted]

13  [redacted]

14  [redacted]

15  [redacted]

16  [redacted]

17  [redacted]

18  [redacted]

19  [redacted]

20  [redacted]

21  [redacted]

22  [redacted]

23  [redacted]

24  [redacted]

25  [redacted]

Page 14294

 1                          [Open session]

 2            JUDGE CLARK:  Just arising out of that response, Mr. Witness:

 3    What made you go to Mr. Martinovic for protection in the first place?  Is

 4    it because of your very close friendship with him or did you know that he

 5    was protecting other people in your neighbourhood?

 6       A.   I was friends with him before the war.  We knew each other well.

 7    I trusted him, and I knew that he had not changed, and that is why I went

 8    to him, asking him for this favour.  Because I knew that he would do it

 9    for me when I needed it.

10            JUDGE CLARK:  So would it be fair to say that among your many

11    friends and neighbours where you live, that people are really shocked at

12    the accusations that have been levelled at Mr. Martinovic?  Would that be

13    a fair assessment?

14       A.   More than shocked.  Half of Djikovina, all the Muslims that are

15    there, he was the one who kept them there or returned. [redacted]

16    [redacted] and they told me about that, how

17    he brought them back from the medical school when others were forcing them

18    to cross over to the other side.  He was the one who sent them back home.

19            JUDGE CLARK:  Thank you very much, Witness, for your assistance,

20    and I think that it would probably be a wise idea if we were to redact all

21    those names that were mentioned.

22            JUDGE DIARRA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

23            Witness MH, I'd like to go back to the funeral.  Is it that you

24    had to pay for this funeral?  Is it that your brother did not share in the

25    expenses of this funeral?  Because he works for a company.  Didn't you

Page 14295

 1    share the expenses?

 2       A.   He could not.  Nobody worked at the time.  Nobody in any company

 3    worked.  And he had two children and a wife, and nobody worked.  So he

 4    probably had barely enough to survive.

 5            JUDGE DIARRA: [Interpretation] And other members of the Muslim

 6    community -- and how much did a funeral cost at the time?

 7       A.   Well, at that time nobody knew what were the prices.  Whatever you

 8    had, you pay.  And all I could, I paid 150 Croatian dinars for the coffin.

 9    And yes, I had to pay a hodza too, because he was also in dire straits.

10    And all this money, it was Stela who gave it to me.

11            JUDGE DIARRA: [Interpretation] And the Muslim community, don't

12    they contribute, the Muslim -- it is one of the Muslim customs that the

13    whole community contributes, under normal circumstances.

14       A.   There was an old woman, Mujesera.  He paid my mother and prepared

15    and dressed her.  That was it.

16            JUDGE DIARRA: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17            JUDGE LIU:  Any questions out of Judges' questions?  Yes,

18    Mr. Seric.

19                          Further examination by Mr. Seric:

20            MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Only one question.

21       Q.   When Her Honour Judge Clark asked you and you said you had to work

22    in order to make some money, when you worked for Vinko Martinovic, Stela,

23    did he always pay?

24       A.   I couldn't wait for him to come, because he would always pay and

25    overpay.

Page 14296












12   Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13   English transcripts.













Page 14297

 1            MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.  That will be

 2    all.

 3            JUDGE LIU:  Mr. Scott?

 4            MR. SCOTT:  No, Your Honour.  Thank you.

 5            JUDGE LIU:  Thank you.

 6            Thank you very much, Witness, for coming to The Hague to give your

 7    evidence.  The usher will show you out of the room when he comes back and

 8    pulls down the blinds.  We all wish you a pleasant journey back home and

 9    good business in the future.

10            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11                          [The witness withdrew]

12            JUDGE LIU:  Yes.  Any documents to tender?

13            MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] No.  The Defence has no documents to

14    tender.

15            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, Mr. Scott.

16            MR. SCOTT:  Mr. President, we would tender the map again, the

17    P11/18.18, I should say, as marked by the witness.  I don't know which

18    number that .../18, I guess it is.  And in addition to that, Your Honour,

19    we would admit -- we would tender to the Chamber - excuse me - Exhibit

20    P401.1.  Anticipating, Mr. President, if I might be allowed to anticipate

21    questions by -- objections by counsel, based on what's already been said:

22    Your Honour, the original of the document will show, if you look at the

23    Croatian version, on the upper right-hand corner, as the Chamber will

24    recognise from this many months into this trial, the stamp of the Zagreb

25    archive.  I can further represent to the Chamber that it comes from the

Page 14298

 1    Zagreb archive.  In addition to that, Mr. President, I think the witness

 2    gave additional indicia of authenticity.  It is corroborated by the facts

 3    independently provided by the witness.  It is indeed the date that he says

 4    he was released.  He also recognised his brother's name on the document

 5    and gave us information about his brother's release.  That would be

 6    consistent with the document.  So we tender 401.1.

 7            JUDGE LIU:  Well, I have a question concerning this document.

 8            MR. SCOTT:  Yes, sir.

 9            JUDGE LIU:  It seems to me that it's just a part of a whole lot, a

10    whole document.  Is that true?

11            MR. SCOTT:  Mr. President, I wouldn't honestly be able to tell you

12    that more than what's on the document.  It appears to be a list of 56

13    names which -- excuse me, Mr. President.  Sorry, Mr. President.  The last

14    page of my Croatian version is missing, the copy that I have, so I'm not

15    able to ... Yes, that's what I remembered.  Mr. President, I can only say

16    that the last page, 56, ends at the top of the page.  It doesn't appear to

17    be -- I can only say it doesn't appear to be a continuing list, or

18    presumably we would have 57, 58, et cetera, on that particular page.  It

19    appears to be a complete list of 56 names in itself, as far as I know, to

20    answer your question.

21            JUDGE LIU:  Is this explanation satisfactory to the Defence

22    counsel?  Yes, Mr. Seric.

23            MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  The Defence

24    has no objections to the map which is tendered.  As regards this document,

25    Vinko Martinovic's Defence does not consider it a document at all, not

Page 14299

 1    only that the Prosecutor's answer is not satisfactory, but this is not a

 2    document at all, only after we get the integral document, the document

 3    from which this was taken, we shall be able to decide.  So my first

 4    objection is that we do not have an integral text; secondly, we shall also

 5    need a certain period of time to respond, in writing, to the Prosecution's

 6    proposal.

 7            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, Mr. Krsnik.

 8            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.  First I

 9    wish to apologise for the manner in which I spoke.  I did not really

10    understand that I could not react instinctively, as my heart as a lawyer

11    bids me to do, that is, that I'm not supposed to react to a document as

12    soon as I see it.  Because I think an intervention which is not timely

13    means nothing, at least in my -- in the trade that I am engaged in.  But I

14    apologise, Your Honours.  I was not -- it was not my intention to be rude.

15            Your Honours, as for this document, we can also respond in

16    writing.  But I wish to tell you something sincerely.  Perhaps my

17    temperament, perhaps my emotions take the upper hand at time, because I

18    truly don't know how to react any longer, and I only hope that truth will

19    reach you, that you will recognise the truth.  Your Honours, quite

20    sincerely speaking, I could have written this.  There.  I think that that

21    said, that suffices to show what kind of a document this is.  Can it

22    really be that in the courtroom of the World Tribunal for war crimes,

23    pieces of paper can appear that we do not know where they come from, who

24    wrote them, why he wrote them, for what reason he wrote them?  We know

25    nothing except that the Prosecutor says it comes from the archive, but

Page 14300

 1    again, he knows nothing either.  Whether it comes from Mostar, whether it

 2    comes from Ljubuski, from Zagreb, from Sarajevo.  Perhaps these people

 3    from incarcerated in Sarajevo.  And this witness has practically

 4    invalidated this document because he said that nobody guaranteed for his

 5    brother, and here it says clearly that someone guaranteed my brother and

 6    the witness said, "No.  My brother was released and nobody was released

 7    and nobody guaranteed for them."  Even the dates, Your Honour, there's no

 8    need for me to go on any further.  I believe that such wise people as you

 9    are need no further argument.  But if necessary, we can argue it in

10    writing.  Of course, my indignation with the procedure that is being

11    applied here, maybe I'll write a book and give vent to it there, but I do

12    not wish to tax your patience any longer, because I'm really indignant

13    that in the World Tribunal for war crimes, such pieces of paper are

14    produced and called documents.  I believe that the history of law will

15    write about it.  I think I'm fighting enough for certain things to show

16    the direction in which future lawyers and future tribunals should go.

17    Thank you.

18            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, Mr. Meek.

19            MR. MEEK:  Mr. President, in addition to what my lead counsel has

20    just mentioned, and in addition to what Mr. Seric just mentioned, I

21    believe we had the same situation when Mr. Bos from the Prosecution team

22    was cross-examining a witness the other day.  What's happening here is

23    that the Prosecution is trying to bootstrap this document into evidence

24    through the back door.  Mr. Scott could have very easily asked a set of

25    questions to this witness, without showing him the document.  The witness,

Page 14301

 1    after having seen the document, answered every question in the negative,

 2    and yet, save and except for:  Were you released on a certain date with

 3    some other prisoners?  He had already admitted he was released around the

 4    17th or 18th.  However, in response to the question from Mr. Scott:  Was

 5    Juka Prazina the commander of your friend?  Or:  Was your friend a soldier

 6    of Juka Prazina?  No.  Do you know if the approval of Mr. Naletilic was

 7    needed for your release?  No.  He could have asked that set of questions

 8    without putting this inflammatory document in front of Your Honours, and

 9    that's my additional objection.  I thought we had this ironed out the

10    other day.  However, it appears - and we'll wait for your ruling, but it

11    appears that the rules in this Trial Chamber change on an hourly and daily

12    basis.  I would just like to have a set ruling on how the Prosecution can

13    go about trying to slip documents in the back door, through witnesses who

14    have no knowledge of those documents, nor the contents of those documents,

15    witnesses who could be asked simple questions.  If they reply in the

16    negative, there's no reason to show the document and try to have the

17    document admitted.  I believe it's highly improper, and I strongly object

18    to this procedure.

19            JUDGE CLARK:  No.  I was just going to ask a question of the

20    Prosecution, but I think that the Prosecution is entitled to respond to

21    what you've said.

22            MR. SCOTT:  Thank you, Judge Clark.  Thank you, Mr. President.

23            First of all, I'm not sure why we have to have three different

24    counsel, not just two, but three different counsel arguing a point of

25    law.  Beyond that, Mr. President, I couldn't disagree more with what's

Page 14302

 1    been said.  I think I respectfully submit that I handled the witness

 2    fairly.  There was a moment when Judge Clark, I think, cautioned me a bit

 3    about perhaps being too rough and I think I took that advice into

 4    consideration and I hope I did to so the satisfaction of the Judge.  But

 5    Your Honour, I asked a series of questions about his release and how it

 6    came that he was released, and nothing he said is inconsistent with the

 7    document.  He said he didn't know who the soldier was.  It was a soldier,

 8    someone who worked at the Heliodrom, either a soldier or a police

 9    officer.  Did you know -- I think, and I can't go back now into the

10    transcript, so I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm wrong, but what I believe

11    I heard the witness say is he didn't know what unit he was from,

12    completely consistent with the possibility that it was in fact someone

13    from Juka Prazina's unit.  The document is consistent with otherwise what

14    the testimony of the witness was.  He quite, without any direction on my

15    part -- the only question I put to the witness on the matter of his

16    brother was:  Would you please review the list and see if you recognise

17    anyone else.  Without any prompting from me or suggestion, he recognised

18    his brother's name and indicated that indeed, indeed, he was released

19    around this time.

20            So I disagree with counsel on a number of respects.  I also must

21    register the strongest concern about the personal allegations that are

22    being made.  My personal good faith has been attacked, Mr. Bos's personal

23    good faith has been attacked.  I understand that counsel may not like this

24    document.  They may not like a lot of the Prosecution evidence.  But when

25    we have a witness come, and he gives us his name and talked about being

Page 14303

 1    held at the Heliodrom and being released on the 18th of May, 1993, and the

 2    Prosecutor has in his possession a document bearing the witness's name,

 3    bearing the date 18th of May, 1993, and then also obtains information

 4    about his brother, those are questions fairly put.  How could counsel

 5    stand up and question the integrity of counsel of putting documents to the

 6    witness on that basis?

 7            So I object very much to the way that these objections are being

 8    made, and with all respect to counsel, I don't think it's an excuse to

 9    say:  My emotions got the best of me.  We have to control our emotions.

10    Your rulings, Your Honour, have been consistent.  You have said

11    repeatedly, and others, and Judge Clark as well, have said repeatedly what

12    the procedure was.  And as evidence by Judge Clark today, I think -- I'm

13    going to be very careful and not emotional myself when I say:  It does try

14    the courtroom's patience when the same conduct occurs day after day, no

15    matter how many times the Rules been explained.  I won't say more,

16    Mr. President, but I believe we've conducted ourselves properly.

17            JUDGE LIU:  I've heard the views from both parties, and both

18    Defence counsel suggested to us that they would like to submit the written

19    objections.  So we'll give you three days for your submission of your

20    written objections on this document, and we'll make the decisions at a

21    later stage.

22                          [Trial Chamber confers]

23            JUDGE CLARK:  I just have a very short question to ask Mr. Scott

24    in relation to the document, and it's probably been explained to me on a

25    number of occasions, but I've forgotten.

Page 14304

 1            Did you explain, or did Mr. Prlic explain to us that the Zagreb

 2    archives stamp is one matter, but that the number is a numbering that's

 3    put on in the Office of the Prosecution?

 4            MR. SCOTT:  Yes.  Yes, Judge Clark.

 5            JUDGE CLARK:  Well, in these circumstances, it surely wouldn't,

 6    Mr. Scott, be terribly difficult for someone in the OTP to find out what

 7    documents came before this, so Mr. Seric's and Mr. Meek's and Mr. Krsnik's

 8    very real concerns about the document could be assuaged, if it can be.

 9            MR. SCOTT:  Well, let me give this explanation, and I know it's

10    late.  I'm only responding Mr. President, because obviously I've been

11    asked.  I can check on the sequences, the numbers.  To be perfectly

12    honest, Judge Clark, that's not necessarily an indication of anything,

13    because as documents are selected from the archive and brought back to The

14    Hague to be further processed, it could be another document from another

15    day could be given the numbering sequence right before this.  And not

16    every document -- certainly you can understand, I hope, we have not

17    brought back every document from the archive or we'd have this building or

18    certainly this room full of documents.  I can inquire, I can inquire to

19    see if it happens to be that there was some related document before this.

20    Let me make it more specific, if it helps.  I can tell the Chamber myself

21    from prior occasions that when I review documents -- sometimes you may get

22    a document immediately before this from a completely different collection.

23    It was seized from a Serb collection in Banja Luka and it has the number

24    right before this number.  Having said that, I will inquire, but I'm not

25    sure it will be -- I'm not sure it will assist the Chamber.

Page 14305

 1            JUDGE CLARK:  What I think that all your colleagues on the Defence

 2    side, and indeed I would like to know, is, the most important question

 3    is:  Where did the document come from before it arrived in the archives?

 4    As Mr. Krsnik said, did it come from Sarajevo?  Did it come from various

 5    other places?  Did it actually come from the Heliodrom?  It would be good

 6    to know that.

 7            MR. SCOTT:  I can -- again, Judge Clark, I'm happy to make a

 8    further inquiry.  Thank you.

 9            JUDGE LIU:  Well, we will rise until 10 minutes past 4.00, and

10    we'll have the next witness.

11                          --- Recess taken at 3.43 p.m.

12                          --- On resuming at 4.18 p.m.

13                          [The witness entered court]

14            JUDGE LIU:  Good afternoon, Witness.  Can you hear me?

15            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.  I can hear you,

16    yes.

17            JUDGE LIU:  Would you please make the solemn declaration in

18    accordance with the paper the usher is showing to you.

19                          WITNESS:  WITNESS MI

20                          [Witness answered through interpreter]

21            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

22    the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

23            JUDGE LIU:  Thank you very much.  You may sit down, please.

24            Yes, Mr. Par.

25                          Examined by Mr. Par:

Page 14306

 1       Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon.  Can we hear each other?  Yes.

 2    Before we begin our conversation, I would like to inform you that this

 3    Honourable Chamber has approved the measures of your protection and that

 4    during your today's examination your image, your voice, and your name will

 5    be protected.  In front of you, you have a piece of paper, where your name

 6    is supposed to be written.  If this is correct, your name, just say yes,

 7    without reading.

 8       A.   Yes.

 9       Q.   In the course of this intercourse, we shall try to speak slowly,

10    and we shall have to wait for each other after we have finished our

11    respective speech.  Pay attention to this red light on the microphone.

12    When I finish my question, I will switch off the microphone and the red

13    light will go off, and then you slowly start your answer.  If necessary, I

14    will just give you a signal with my hand to slow down.

15            MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Mr. President, please, can we have a

16    private session now?  I would like to ask certain questions concerning the

17    personality of the witness himself.

18                          [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

19            JUDGE LIU:  Well, we'll go to the private session, please.

20                          [Private session]

21  [redacted]

22  [redacted]

23  [redacted]

24  [redacted]

25  [redacted]

Page 14307













13  Page 14307 – redacted – private session













Page 14308













13  Page 14308 – redacted – private session













Page 14309

 1  [redacted]

 2  [redacted]

 3  [redacted]

 4  [redacted]

 5  [redacted]

 6  [redacted]

 7  [redacted]

 8  [redacted]

 9  [redacted]

10                          [Open session]

11            MR. PAR: [Interpretation] We are now back in the open session, so

12    please be careful not to mention your name during this intercourse, and I

13    will also take care of that.

14            My first question would be:  During the Serbian aggression against

15    Mostar, can you tell me what happened with you?  And I'm especially

16    interested to know whether you were militarily engaged during the Serbian

17    aggression.

18       A.   During the Serbian aggression I was a member of the HOS unit.

19       Q.   Can you tell us in auto few sentences how --

20            JUDGE LIU:  There's some problem with the questions and answers,

21    because from the transcript, we cannot distinguish between questions and

22    answers.  So you have to make a pause, longer pause, after your question.

23            MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Thank you for this warning.

24       Q.   My question was:  Were you militarily engaged?  You said you were

25    a member of the HOS.  Now my question is:  Can you tell us in a few

Page 14310

 1    sentences how you joined the HOS, and in what manner?

 2       A.   I approached Mr. Martinovic.  He immediately received me.  I said

 3    I was available.  I wasn't engaged anyplace else.  And he admitted me.

 4       Q.   Are we talking about Vinko Martinovic, Stela?

 5       A.   Yes.

 6       Q.   Did he hold any position in the HOS at the time?

 7       A.   He was a HOS commander.

 8       Q.   Did you know Vinko Martinovic from earlier, and what was the

 9    nature of your acquaintanceship with him?

10       A.   I used to be a friend of his father's, and I still am.  We were in

11    the same business.  We were -- his father and I were both taxi drivers.  I

12    came to their house on many occasions.

13       Q.   Can you tell us a little bit more?  What was the ethnic

14    composition of the HOS?  Who were members of those units, of that unit?

15       A.   Members of the HOS unit -- the composition was half and half,

16    Muslims and Croats, and maybe two or three Serbs.

17       Q.   Can you tell me how long you stayed in the HOS?

18       A.   Until the very end, the 8th of September.

19       Q.   After that -- which year?

20            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, Mr. Poriouvaev.

21            MR. PORIOUVAEV:  Just in order to clarify about the year.

22            JUDGE LIU:  Yes.  You may proceed, Mr. Par.

23            MR. PAR: [Interpretation]

24       Q.   Can you state which year that was?

25       A.   1992.

Page 14311












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Page 14312

 1       Q.   Thank you.  Thereafter, you left HOS, and then have you joined any

 2    other units after you abandoned HOS?

 3       A.   Immediately, the following day, I handed over my workshop to the

 4    Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

 5       Q.   While you were a member of the HOS, did you do any work in the

 6    workshop?  And what was your particular duty while you were in the HOS?

 7       A.   I worked on the repair of vehicles that were used by the HOS

 8    troops.

 9       Q.   And now you said immediately, on the following day, you handed it

10    over to the Army of the BH.  Does that mean that you became a member of

11    any units of the BH?  And if that is the case, can you tell me which unit

12    was that?

13       A.   That was the 4th Corps.

14       Q.   In the 4th Corps of the army BH, what was your duty, and where was

15    physically this corps located?  Where were you physically located?

16       A.   The corps was on the Santiceva Street, and the workshop was very

17    close to the Hotel Mostar.

18       Q.   For the sake of orientation of this Chamber, can you tell us:  Was

19    it on the left bank or on the right bank of the Neretva, or in the

20    so-called East or West Mostar?

21       A.   In the Western Mostar.

22       Q.   What were your duties in the unit and this workshop?

23       A.   I did the same thing.  I repaired the vehicles, irrespective of

24    whether they belonged to the army or to the HVO.

25            THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.  I can't hear.

Page 14313

 1            JUDGE LIU:  There's a problem.  I saw your microphone is on, but

 2    the interpreters could not hear you.  Maybe there's a problem of the

 3    channel.  Will you try it again, Mr. Par?

 4            MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Of course, Mr. President.  The last

 5    thing we see in the transcript is where you say you repaired vehicles,

 6    regardless of whether they belonged to the BH army or the HVO.

 7       Q.   And my question was:  What were the relations between the HVO and

 8    the BH army at the time, and whether they were acting together at the time

 9    in one way or another.

10       A.   Yes.  The relations between them were very good, and at that time

11    they acted jointly.

12       Q.   On the 9th of May, 1993, do you know what happened on that date?

13    Was that day in any way remarkable?

14       A.   Yes.  I think it was a remarkable day, because that day I set off

15    to work, unaware of what was going on in the town.  I came near my

16    workshop, when I was warned by a friend, uniformed.  He was there at the

17    checkpoint - that I should not proceed further, that it was very

18    dangerous, that some kind of fighting had broken out between the BH army

19    and the HVO because one of the Armija units was accommodated very near

20    the workshop, that is in the hotel, and the SFOR was to pull it out from

21    the area.

22       Q.   And what happened then?  Did you go home or did you go to the

23    unit?  Where did you spend the day?  And did anything special happen to

24    you that day?

25       A.   I returned home that same -- immediately, and I was in front of

Page 14314

 1    the building.  I heard that there was some gunfire that evening.  And from

 2    that day on, I could no longer get to my workshop.

 3       Q.   At the time, from then on, did you have any problems?  Or, more

 4    specifically, were you arrested in some way?

 5       A.   No.

 6       Q.   Did you, -- during the war, were you ever arrested?

 7       A.   No, not until the 30th of June.

 8       Q.   And what happened on the 30th of June, 1993?  What happened to

 9    you?

10       A.   On the 30th of June, that day, the Northern Camp fell, and the

11    Radio Mostar, on the left bank, commander Arif Pasalic, spoke on Mostar

12    Radio and he requested that all the Muslims on the right bank offer

13    resistance to the HVO, and I realised then that something strange would

14    happen.  And so it did, around 4.00 in the afternoon.

15       Q.   Before you tell us what specifically happened, can you tell us:

16    Arif Pasalic, you said, was a commander.  Of which army?

17       A.   The Army of BH.

18       Q.   The Army of BH.  So therefore you expected that something was to

19    happen.  You heard this message addressed to you, the Muslims.  So what

20    happened at 4.00?

21       A.   After lunch, I took a nap, and then about 4.00 my wife and a

22    friend of mine, she woke us up.  She saw the military police in the

23    compound -- around the building, and she saw people coming out of the

24    buildings.  They were standing in a file, two by two.  And she noticed

25    that they were being taken away to some place.  She didn't know exactly

Page 14315

 1    where.  I only managed to have a cup a coffee.  A young man knocked at the

 2    door and said to me and my friend to get ready, to bring a few things,

 3    some warm clothes with us, and that is how I set off.

 4       Q.   Tell me:  Did you at that time, on that date -- were still a

 5    member of the Army of BH?

 6       A.   Yes.

 7       Q.   So you went off with the military police.  Who else was brought by

 8    the military police?  What kind of group was that?  How many of you were

 9    there?

10       A.   There were between 35 and 40 men fit for military service.

11       Q.   Tell me:  At the time, in your flat, did your son live there?

12       A.   Yes, and one of my sons, the elder one, who was very sturdily

13    built for his age, the young man who came to fetch us, he also said we

14    should get ready.  And then my wife produced his birth certificate and

15    showed it to this military policeman and he sent him back.

16       Q.   Therefore, they didn't think that he was fit for military service,

17    therefore he wasn't taken with you.  Where were you taken?

18       A.   They put us on a bus and drove us to Heliodrom.

19       Q.   So can we see -- hear again which day it was?

20       A.   30th of June, 1993.

21       Q.   While you were at the Heliodrom, were you mistreated and abused in

22    any way?  Did anything in particular happen to you at the Heliodrom?

23       A.   No, nothing.  We just went to an office, where they registered us,

24    and then they put us into a gym.

25       Q.   Can you tell me:  Were you taken on the subsequent days from the

Page 14316

 1    Heliodrom to perform labour for certain military units?

 2       A.   On the 30th of June, 1993, when I was taken away, I said to my

 3    wife to ask a neighbour of ours to go to Vinko Martinovic, Stela, and to

 4    try to pull me out, because he had promised me that when we met in early

 5    June.  He was in a car, in the company of Sejo Huskovic.  He stopped the

 6    car and we had a conversation.  And in view of the situation that

 7    prevailed in the town, I asked him if he was willing to help me if it

 8    should happen that -- if something happened to me.  He promised me, and

 9    for that reason I instructed my wife to go to his family, to find him and

10    ask him to do something for me.

11       Q.   Do you know whether your wife had gone to see him, what happened,

12    and how did you -- did you and how did you ever find out?

13       A.   My wife told me that our neighbour, Rade Culjak, took her to his

14    house.  He wasn't at home.  His parents were there.  They listened to her,

15    but they couldn't do anything, or they couldn't promise anything.  So she

16    went back home.

17       Q.   Do you know whether this request of your wife, did it ever reach

18    Stela, and did Stela ever, in any way, react to your request?

19       A.   The only thing I know is that on the 6th or the seventh day when

20    at the Heliodrom, I received a message from my wife, through a soldier, to

21    keep an eye on a blue truck, Deutz truck that was supposed to arrive,

22    that I should report to this group, and that this truck was supposed to

23    take people to Stela.

24       Q.   Did you act in accordance with this instruction, this message?

25    Did you see this blue truck?  Did you reach Stela's unit, and how?

Page 14317

 1       A.   Quite simply, they wanted to single out 20 men to go to work.  I

 2    stood in the line, boarded the truck, and we were driven to the base of

 3    Mr. Martinovic.

 4       Q.   Can you tell us:  What was -- when was it that you went to Stela's

 5    for the first time?

 6       A.   It could have been 6th, 7th of July, 1993.

 7            MR. PAR: [Interpretation] I think I -- oh, yes.  I see.  It says

 8    6th or 7th of July, 1993.

 9            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right.

10            MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11       Q.   So you were for the first time in Stela's unit.  What does it look

12    like?  Did you see Stela there?  How did you fare that first day?  What

13    was the situation like in that base?

14       A.   When we got off the truck, we again lined up two and two, and

15    Mr. Martinovic spotted me.  He immediately singled me out, took me to the

16    side, me and two others, and then he took us to the office, where we sat

17    down, had some coffee, talked.  And he said that he could not do anything

18    for me earlier, that that was the only way.  So we sat there for about 45

19    minutes, or perhaps an hour, and then one of the soldiers came in, and he

20    said to Martinovic to take me home immediately, whether he could take me

21    home.  And he allowed it and then he took me home, perhaps sometime around

22    9.00.  I spent the whole day at home and at 6.00 he came again to take me

23    back to the base.

24       Q.   Very well.  When you say "home," I understand it is your home,

25    your family, your wife and children, and then he took you back to the

Page 14318

 1    base.  Very well.

 2            But after that, after that first day, did you continue going to

 3    that unit?

 4       A.   Yes.  I went there almost every day except when the soldiers at

 5    the Heliodrom, the guards, would notice that I had arrived clean, and

 6    after having had a bath, and then they would object to Mr. Martinovic for

 7    letting me home.  And then for two or three days, he wouldn't -- they

 8    wouldn't let me go to work for him.

 9       Q.   So it was by your physical appearance that they drew the

10    conclusions that you had been home and not working?

11       A.   That's right.

12       Q.   Can you now tell me and the Court:  How many days, all told, did

13    you spend at the Heliodrom?  For how many days were you a prisoner of war?

14       A.   About 72 days.

15       Q.   Of those 72 days, how many days did you spend with that unit, at

16    Vinko Martinovic's?

17       A.   Forty-five to fifty days.

18       Q.   Tell me:  Did you sometimes spend a night with that unit.

19    Someone's place, perhaps to the front line or somewhere else.

20       Q.   Does that mean that you volunteered for come and stay in that

21    unit?

22       A.   Yes, it happened on various occasions, two, three, sometimes even

23    five nights.

24       Q.   And of those fifty days that you spent there, for how many days

25    would it account, when you had to stay there overnight?

Page 14319

 1       A.   About twenty days.

 2       Q.   Can you explain it to us somehow, how is it-- how did Vinko

 3    Martinovic manage to do it? To keep you there overnight? How could he keep

 4    you there, so you wouldn't have to go back to the Heliodrom?

 5       A.   Well, nothing. Except on the paper we said whop had-- was returned

 6    to the Heliodrom. He just wrote there that I spend the night there for

 7    some reason or another.

 8       Q.   But did you stay there overnight because you wanted that or

 9    because they needed you there because there was some work to be done?

10       A.   There only reason was because I used that moment-- had I gone back

11    to the Heliodrom in the morning perhaps I would be taken to some worse

12    place. Perhaps to the front line or somewhere else.

13       Q.   Does it mean that you volunteered to come and stay in that unit?

14            JUDGE CLARK:  We've lost about two minutes of transcript.

15            MR. PAR: [Interpretation]

16       Q.   Witness, we'll have to repeat some of the questions, because

17    something happened to the interpretation.

18            JUDGE CLARK:  Sorry, Mr. Par.  Whether it's just my monitor or

19    everybody's else's it's stopped at:  Tell me:  Did you sometimes spend a

20    night with that unit?  Did he, and it stops there.  And it hasn't

21    continued on my monitor.

22            MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Yes.  Yes.  My monitor is the same.

23    Yes, absolutely the same.

24            JUDGE CLARK:  Was I the only one listening?

25            MR. PAR: [Interpretation] No.  I'm listening too.

Page 14320

 1            JUDGE DIARRA: [Interpretation] Mr. Par, can I -- for this and ask

 2    you to ask the witness to slow down because sometimes he must remember

 3    that it has to be interpreted for the rest of us, and he's for a -- too

 4    fast.

 5            MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

 6            JUDGE LIU:  Well, we were told that we need about five minutes to

 7    fix it up, so could we make a break at this time and we'll resume at 5.00,

 8    five-minutes' break.

 9                          --- Break taken at 4.54 p.m.

10                          --- On resuming at 5.10 p.m.

11            JUDGE LIU:  Yes.  Mr. Par, please continue, or repeat your

12    questions.

13            MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Yes, of course, Your Honour.

14       Q.   Witness, you could see we had some technical problems, and we

15    shall have to repeat some of the questions.  So let us take up from my

16    question when I asked you how many days did you spend at the Heliodrom all

17    told.  You told us 72 days.  Then I asked you how many days did you spend

18    with the unit at Vinko Martinovic, Stela's, and you said:  "I think 45

19    days."  After that, my question was, and now I will ask you to answer:

20    Did you ever spend the night with the unit?

21       A.   Yes, I did, on various occasions.

22       Q.   Can you tell us:  How many days, roughly, did you stay overnight,

23    of those 45, 50 days, how many nights did you spend there?

24       A.   About 20 nights.

25       Q.   Tell me:  Did you stay there of your own will or did you have

Page 14321

 1    certain duties to perform overnight?

 2       A.   No.  I had no obligations, no duties to perform overnight, but in

 3    this way I avoided the Heliodrom, so that I wouldn't have to go to some

 4    worse place, perhaps the confrontation line, the next morning, or perhaps

 5    so that I wouldn't have to do some heavier work.

 6       Q.   Very well.  And how did Vinko Martinovic manage to explain it to

 7    the Heliodrom?  Why did he have to keep you overnight?

 8       A.   Quite simply, he would write on a piece of paper the unit needs

 9    him, and that is how we stayed.

10       Q.   Did other prisoners also stay overnight or were you the only one?

11       A.   Well, almost every night, four, five, maybe even six, would stay

12    there overnight.

13       Q.   And did the same situation apply to them?  Did they ask to stay

14    there?  Did they stay of their own free will?

15       A.   They stayed there of their own free will.

16       Q.   And can you tell us briefly:  Where did you sleep?  What were the

17    conditions there when you stayed the night?

18       A.   We slept on the upper floor, in the base, in beds.  There was a

19    living room there which we could use.

20       Q.   Were you locked up?  Were you kept under guard on those occasions

21    when you stayed there?

22       A.   No, we were not locked up.  And there was always an elderly home

23    guard who would spend the night there to guard the base, and we could go

24    out and talk with him.  If you didn't feel like sleeping, so we chatted.

25    I didn't feel like I was being guarded.

Page 14322

 1       Q.   Very well.  You spent a lot of time with that unit, so will you

 2    now answer some questions concerning the conditions in the unit.  And

 3    please, I will ask you to tell us about yourself first.

 4            Tell me:  What were the jobs that you were asked to do in the

 5    unit?

 6       A.   Well, I was mostly involved in preparing vehicles that the members

 7    of the unit used.

 8       Q.   And those jobs, did you do them under coercion?  Were you forced

 9    to do it or did you volunteer to do them?

10       A.   Well, they knew that I was a mechanic, so they turned to me.  No,

11    I didn't do it under compulsion; I did it voluntarily.

12       Q.   Did you ever receive any remuneration for the work that you did?

13       A.   Well, as a rule, I did.  Sometimes I did some small things, and

14    perhaps it was not worth paying.  But every soldiers, if nothing else,

15    brought me a package of cigarettes too, or gave me some money.

16       Q.   And tell me:  What about your meals?  Where did you get your meals

17    at the time that you were with the unit?

18       A.   In the unit, in daytime, we would get some dry pack; and in the

19    evening we brought the food from a restaurant which was nearby, which was

20    near the base.

21       Q.   Could you tell us:  What was that restaurant called?

22       A.   Hladovina.

23       Q.   Tell me:  During your stay there, did you receive any visits?  How

24    often did you go home, if, that is, you went home?

25       A.   I had no need to have any visitors because I went home to see my

Page 14323

 1    family almost every day.

 2       Q.   And how did you go to see your family?  Did you go there on your

 3    own or in some other way?

 4       A.   As a rule, a soldier would take me home and then come again to

 5    fetch me at the agreed time.

 6       Q.   Right.  So that is how you fared.  But I guess there were some

 7    other prisoners, and what about them?

 8       A.   Well, what I could see, because I wasn't there all the time, I

 9    would be home or I don't know.  And the majority of them enjoyed almost

10    the same treatment as I did.

11       Q.   Did you see any mistreatment of prisoners or their degradation,

12    their humiliation in some way?

13       A.   No.

14       Q.   Tell me:  Were you ever sent to the separation line next to the

15    health centre?

16       A.   Yes, but only once.

17       Q.   Could you tell us about it?  When did you go?  Where did you go?

18    What did you do there?

19       A.   It was once, when a soldier was killed, and he was to be buried.

20    We were three or four of us in the headquarters, and every funeral passed

21    by the headquarters.  And then Mr. Martinovic suggested that we should go

22    to the front line ourselves because we would be the safest there, because

23    there were people in the procession who would be walking on foot, and in

24    order to avoid some incident.  So we went to the line, as advised by

25    Mr. Martinovic, and we were really safe there.

Page 14324

 1       Q.   I see.  So it was for your safety.  Tell us:  Did you go there on

 2    your own, without any military escort?  And how long did you stay there?

 3       A.   We went there on our own and stayed there an hour, an hour and a

 4    half.  I don't know how long the funeral lasted.

 5       Q.   And whilst you were down there at the health centre, did you feel

 6    under threat, in peril in any way?  Was there any gunfire or was it that

 7    you had nowhere to take shelter from possible gunfire from the other side

 8    or not?

 9       A.   No.  At that time there was no gunfire, and we were well shielded,

10    because we were behind buildings.  The line with soldiers was in front of

11    us.

12       Q.   Do you mean to say that the soldiers were on the front line and

13    that you were somewhere behind them?

14       A.   Yes, we were behind the soldiers.

15       Q.   Were you behind a building or behind a screen?

16       A.   We were behind a building which was three or four-storey

17    building, I think.

18       Q.   Thank you.  Tell us:  During your stay there, was any prisoner

19    killed or wounded in that unit?

20       A.   I don't know of any of them being killed, but I was wounded.

21    Safet Smajic, that is a soldier, member of Martinovic's troops.

22       Q.   Where did that happen, and when?

23       A.   I don't recall the date, but it was sometime in August, I think

24    early August, 1993.  From an unknown direction, a shell fell.  It was hot,

25    and we were all out.  We were all outside in the street, and this soldier

Page 14325

 1    was gravely wounded, seriously, and I was wounded in the stomach.  Safet

 2    Smajic was wounded in the leg.

 3       Q.   Tell me:  Was it in Kalemova, in the base, or was it near the

 4    health centre?

 5       A.   It was in Kalemova Street, right in front of the base.

 6       Q.   When that shell fell, when you were wounded, what did you do?

 7    Were you taken to hospital?  Can you tell us briefly?

 8       A.   I was hit by shrapnel here, because I had my hand here, it didn't

 9    pass through.  And I had a T-shirt on.  So I ran, I dashed into

10    Mr. Martinovic's office and told him that there were wounded, and he

11    immediately dashed out, switched on the engine of a jeep, put us in that

12    car, and took us to Bijele Brijeg, to the war hospital.

13       Q.   Did he take you all, the wounded soldier and the two prisoners?

14       A.   Mr. Martinovic took me and Safet, and this soldier had to be taken

15    to the emergency care because he had been wounded in the kidney area, and

16    he almost clinically died on the way to the hospital.  I could see doctors

17    extending aid to him, trying to resuscitate him.  And we had to wait until

18    that soldier was taken care of.  We were lying on beds and waited there

19    for the doctors to finish.

20       Q.   And was this medical aid that was extended to you timely?  Were

21    your wounds tended to?

22       A.   Well, we had to wait a little bit, because there was yet another

23    case, and there were not enough doctors there, so that we had to wait a

24    little.

25       Q.   Those who were attended to before you, were they more seriously

Page 14326












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Page 14327

 1    wounded than you?

 2       A.   Well, this guy, this one guy, he was pretty seriously wounded.

 3       Q.   And how long did you stay in the hospital?

 4       A.   About two hours.

 5       Q.   And after that, where did you go, and what happened next?

 6       A.   Mr. Martinovic came to collect us, put us in the car, and returned

 7    us to the base.

 8       Q.   Did you then stay at the base or did you go home or back to the

 9    Heliodrom?

10       A.   He assigned a soldier to take me home, because I was all covered

11    in blood, so that I could wash myself and change clothes.  After that I

12    returned to the base.

13       Q.   And how did you feel?  Could you really -- were you up to staying

14    in the base, in view of the status of your health?  Did you have to go

15    back to the hospital or did you feel sufficiently well to stay in the

16    base?

17       A.   I felt well enough to stay in the base.

18       Q.   Did you spend the night in the base?  Did you spend that night in

19    the base or were you returned to the Heliodrom?

20       A.   That night I stayed in the base, and the next day I went to the

21    Heliodrom to have my wound dressed.

22       Q.   Very well.  Tell me:  When were you released, and when were you

23    ceased to be a prisoner of war?

24       A.   Between the 8th and the 12th of September, 1993.

25       Q.   How were you released?  Who informed you of that?

Page 14328

 1       A.   I don't know.  I was at the base, and then some people told me

 2    that they heard my name called and that I was set free, and then I went to

 3    the Heliodrom, to return what was issued to me, and I went home.

 4       Q.   So you went home.  What happened after that with you?  Did you

 5    start any business?  Did you take a rest?

 6       A.   For a time, I took a rest.  I didn't go out of the house.  Then

 7    later on, I started going out.  I went to see Mr. Martinovic, asked him to

 8    help me --

 9            JUDGE DIARRA: [Interpretation] I apologise.  All this is going

10    very quickly.  You said that you returned to Heliodrom, but the reason is

11    unclear.  Everything is going too fast and is not precise enough.

12            MR. PAR: [Interpretation] I will try to go back a little and

13    clarify this matter.  I apologise that we were too fast.

14       Q.   Witness, my mistake.  I didn't warn you often enough to slow down.

15            Now, let us explain the situation when you returned to Heliodrom.

16    The first situation was that after you had been wounded, the following day

17    you went back to the Heliodrom.  The reason for that -- what was the

18    reason for your going back to Heliodrom?

19       A.   We had a doctor at the Heliodrom.  He was also a prisoner.  He

20    provided all medical assistance and services to us, and I had to go to

21    have my wound dressed and bandaged.

22       Q.   The second time when we mentioned your return to the Heliodrom, it

23    referred to the time -- to the date when you were released.  Can you

24    briefly repeat how you found out that you were set free?  And what was the

25    reason for your return to Heliodrom?  Could you please slowly repeat that

Page 14329

 1    part?

 2       A.   I was at the base the day before I was released.  I didn't know I

 3    was to be set free on that day.  The following day, when men came to work,

 4    one of them told me that they were reading a list and that they called my

 5    name and that I was set free.  On that day I went to Heliodrom, spent

 6    another night there, and then the next day, when the officials came,

 7    during the working hours, they informed me that I was released.

 8       Q.   All right.  Then you said that you spent a couple of days resting

 9    at home and then that you again went to Vinko Martinovic, Stela.  What was

10    the reason for that?

11       A.   Well, I went to see Vinko Martinovic, to see what was I to do at

12    the time, because I couldn't make up my mind.  I told him I had my own

13    garage and that I could work there, I would like to work there, if he

14    could provide protection for me.  He advised me to open a workshop and to

15    continue working.

16       Q.   And was that how it happened?  Did you continue your work?  Were

17    there any problems?  Please, slowly.

18       A.   Yes.  I established my own garage and I continued my work.  On one

19    occasion an explosive was planted in my garage.  It was blown up.  But the

20    next day I repaired the damage and resumed my work.

21       Q.   Did Vinko Martinovic come to your garage?  Did in any way by his

22    presence provide protection for you.  Did he encourage and support you

23    to continue your work?

24       A.   He came on several occasions, or nearly once or twice a week he

25    would come, just that with his presence he would let everyone know that I

Page 14330

 1    was under his protection.

 2       Q.   Okay.  Just briefly, let us go through another series of

 3    questions.  While you were in the unit, did you see Vinko Martinovic or

 4    any of his soldiers were persecuting or expelling Muslims, or were they in

 5    any way treating them in an inappropriate manner?

 6       A.   I heard of that, but I didn't see it.  I did hear of that, but I

 7    never believed those stories.

 8       Q.   Why didn't you believe those stories?  Did you have different

 9    experiences?  Did you perhaps have an opportunity that somebody was using

10    or abusing the name of Vinko Martinovic?

11            JUDGE LIU:  Yes.

12            MR. PORIOUVAEV:  Your Honour, it's a leading question.

13            JUDGE LIU:  Yes.  You may put it another way, Mr. Par.

14            MR. PAR: [Interpretation] My apology.  I think your objection is

15    in place.  It was not my intention to lead the witness.

16       Q.   You said you didn't believe those stories.  Why?

17       A.   Since, as a Muslim, I was in Stela's base, I, just like many other

18    men, never experienced any -- never had any unpleasant experience, and I

19    couldn't believe that that was possible to happen to someone else.

20       Q.   Have you ever personally seen a crime committed and that somebody

21    was impersonating Stela or any of his soldiers?  Have you personally

22    witnessed such a situation?

23       A.   Yes, on one occasion I did.  Under the window of my flat, sometime

24    after midnight, somebody was breaking into a car, and I heard voices

25    saying, "Hurry up, Stela."  Knowing Stela, I pushed up the blinds, and I

Page 14331

 1    wanted to tell him that that was my car, in fact, that he should leave it

 2    alone.  But I didn't see Stela.  One of the two men pointed the rifle at

 3    me and ordered me to close the blinds, which I -- and I complied.

 4       Q.   So when you heard the name "Stela" mentioned, did you recognise

 5    Stela among the two men?

 6       A.   No, I didn't.

 7       Q.   Have you ever heard or seen directly and personally the police

 8    asking or discussing with Stela about various crimes that were being

 9    committed in the town?

10       A.   Once we were working on a vehicle.  We stayed late in the night,

11    maybe until 9.00 p.m. We brought the vehicle back to the base.  Stela

12    invited us to a cafe nearby, next to the base.  We were sitting there and

13    a quite a few drinks, and it lasted until 1.00 or 2.00 in the morning.  On

14    that night, the civilian police came and they told Stela that they

15    received three reports from citizens about some kind of theft, that his

16    name was mentioned, whereas he spent the whole time with us.

17       Q.   Thank you, Witness.

18            MR. PAR: [Interpretation] I have no questions, Your Honours.  I

19    have finished.

20            JUDGE LIU:  I think we'll make a break here and we'll resume until

21    6.00.

22                          --- Recess taken at 5.36 p.m.

23                          --- On resuming at 6.01 p.m.

24            JUDGE LIU:  Yes.  Cross-examination, Mr. Prosecutor.

25            MR. PORIOUVAEV:  Thank you, Your Honours.  Perhaps we should go

Page 14332

 1    into private session in the beginning of cross-examination now.

 2            JUDGE LIU:  Yes.  We'll go to the private session, please.

 3                          [Private session]

 4  [redacted]

 5  [redacted]

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 8  [redacted]

 9  [redacted]

10  [redacted]

11  [redacted]

12  [redacted]

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18  [redacted]

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25  [redacted]

Page 14333

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16  [redacted]

17  [redacted]

18  [redacted]

19  [redacted]

20  [redacted]

21  [redacted]

22  [redacted]

23                          [Open session]

24            MR. PORIOUVAEV:

25       Q.   Did you have any specific task for the 9th of May, as a soldier of

Page 14334

 1    Armija, member of the 4th Corps?

 2       A.   No.

 3       Q.   So you explained to the Trial Chamber that after the 9th of May,

 4    it was impossible to use your workshop; right?

 5       A.   That's right.

 6       Q.   I would ask you to -- just to give a little more details about

 7    what happened on the 9th of May.  In the area, at least, where you were

 8    living, and indicated on the map.  Did you see any mass movement of the

 9    population towards the Velez Stadium on that day?

10       A.   I went regularly to do my job as a mechanic.  The street that I

11    was walking down towards my work is not in any way connected to the way to

12    the stadium, and I couldn't see or notice any movements or any major

13    crowds in the town.

14       Q.   I would like to clarify my question.  I meant the 9th of May, 10th

15    of May, 1993.

16       A.   On the 9th of May, I returned, but I didn't have access to my

17    workshop.  At one corner was the HVO army, troops.  One of them, aka

18    Pinda, recognised me and warned me not to proceed further and to go back

19    home and to stay at home.

20       Q.   Did you see any of your neighbours arrested on the 9th of May, or

21    did you hear about it?

22       A.   I heard about it only in the evening of the 9th of May, but there

23    were none of my neighbours among them.

24       Q.   Were any of your next-of-kin arrested on the 9th of May?

25       A.   Yes.  My brother was arrested.

Page 14335

 1       Q.   Was he released in May or not?

 2       A.   No.

 3       Q.   Do you know who arrested him?

 4       A.   I don't know.

 5       Q.   When was he released, and where was he kept before that?

 6       A.   He was detained at Heliodrom and was released on the 19th of

 7    February, 1994.

 8       Q.   Did you meet him in Heliodrom?

 9       A.   When I was released, after that I went to visit him, two times.

10       Q.   Do you mean you went to visit him to Heliodrom?

11       A.   Yes.

12       Q.   So, Witness, is it your testimony that nothing special was

13    happening in Mostar as from the 9th of May to the 30th of June, 1993?

14    Right?

15       A.   Well, I don't exactly claim that nothing happened.

16       Q.   That's why I'm asking you, why, at some point you decided to turn

17    to Vinko Martinovic for some assistance.  What did you fear?

18       A.   Well, I was afraid precisely because my brother was detained, and

19    I feared that the same might happen to me, and that is why I sought

20    assistance and help.

21       Q.   And what kind of assistance did you expect from Vinko Martinovic?

22       A.   Well, mainly to protect me.

23       Q.   Was he a very important person, a person with consequences [As

24    interpreted]?

25       A.   Well, not of great influence, but he had authority that he

Page 14336

 1    acquired back from the time of HOS units, and I had a feeling that he

 2    could help me.

 3       Q.   Did he occupy any important position in Mostar at that time?

 4       A.   No, he didn't.

 5       Q.   Was he a civilian, just a layman?

 6       A.   When I met him on avenija, as I said in my statement, he was in a

 7    car.  He was wearing civilian clothes.

 8       Q.   My question is wider.  Your contacts with Vinko Martinovic were

 9    not limited to the day in May or June.  You had some communication with

10    him later.  What was your perception?  If he occupied any position or

11    position in some civil administration that could be very important and

12    gave him vast powers?

13       A.   Well, he wore a uniform, just like everybody else, but I don't

14    know if he occupied any position, that he had some rank or something like

15    that.

16       Q.   And how do you think he was able to protect you?

17       A.   Well, probably by his authority from HOS.  People had respect for

18    him.

19       Q.   Witness, but it's quite clear that HOS did not exist at that

20    time.  It ceased to exist somewhere in 1992.

21       A.   Yes, it's true.

22       Q.   What kind of authority do you mean, then, that Stela might have at

23    that time?

24       A.   I'm speaking about how people in the army respected him, people

25    from his own national group.  He was a well-known figure in the town

Page 14337

 1    itself.

 2       Q.   But why do you think that you should have expected some misdoings

 3    from military persons, from military people who respected Stela?

 4       A.   Well, I didn't expect that exactly from them.

 5       Q.   From whom did you expect any misdoings?

 6       A.   I wasn't afraid of Croats born in Mostar, but from Bosnia there

 7    was an influx of people from Konjic, Jablanica, Sarajevo, and that is what

 8    I feared the most.

 9       Q.   Do you mean Croats, influx of Croats?

10       A.   Yes.

11       Q.   And again I would like to return you to your brother.  Was your

12    brother a military man at the moment when he was arrested?

13       A.   No, he wasn't.

14       Q.   Was he of military age, I mean from 18 to 60?

15       A.   Yes.

16       Q.   Do you know now who arrested him?  I don't mean the personality

17    who executed the arrest; I mean the organ, organisation, body who arrested

18    him.

19       A.   I don't know.

20       Q.   You don't ask him?  You never asked him?

21       A.   He didn't know either.

22       Q.   Perhaps he was arrested by the Serbs?

23            MR. MEEK:  Your Honour, I object.  Argumentative.  These questions

24    are becoming argumentative.

25            JUDGE LIU:  Well, Mr. Prosecutor, I think, you know, the witness

Page 14338

 1    answered the question.  He doesn't know.  He didn't know either.  I think

 2    there's no need, you know, to ask more questions in that direction.

 3            MR. PORIOUVAEV:  Of course, Your Honour.  You're right.  Since the

 4    witness is so indifferent to his brother.  But I will move on.

 5            JUDGE LIU:  Yes.

 6            MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I think that this

 7    comments, like the most recent one, are inadmissible in a courtroom.  I

 8    think that in a way this is an inadmissible treatment of the witness, and

 9    even the previous question, when my learned colleague asked whether there

10    were Serbs, I think that was a certain provocation towards the witness.  I

11    really want our witnesses to receive at least the same treatment as the

12    witnesses, and we know that the Court takes due care of protection of

13    witnesses who are also victims, and we -- I kindly ask that they be

14    treated in an appropriate manner.  Thank you.

15            JUDGE LIU:  Well, Mr. Prosecutor, be careful with the words you

16    are using.  Do not use any provocative words towards any witness.  I

17    understand it's difficult in conducting a cross-examination, but just have

18    some patience and politeness.

19            MR. PORIOUVAEV:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I never lose my

20    countenance.

21       Q.   Witness, and who was running Heliodrom?  Who was keeping you in

22    Heliodrom?

23       A.   I cannot answer that.  I was simply arrested.  There were guards

24    around us.  I can't tell you had who kept me there.

25       Q.   To which military organisation, military police, did those guards

Page 14339

 1    belong?

 2       A.   Probably the command of the town.

 3       Q.   Who was in command of the town?

 4       A.   I don't know.

 5       Q.   Okay, Witness.  You were talking about two conflicting forces in

 6    Mostar, and even about skirmishes between them.  It was Armija and HVO;

 7    right?

 8       A.   Yes.

 9       Q.   You were not arrested by the Armija soldiers; right?

10            THE INTERPRETER:  Sorry.  I didn't hear the witness.

11            MR. PORIOUVAEV:  I didn't hear him either.

12       A.   No.

13       Q.   Okay.  Let's move on to the 30th of June.  So you explained to the

14    Trial Chamber that very important events occurred in Mostar on the 30th of

15    June, 1993.  Do you remember at what time those events started on the 30th

16    of June?

17       A.   These events happened on the left bank.  I was living on the right

18    bank.  I don't know exactly when they started.  I -- it was just announced

19    on the radio that the Northern Camp had fallen.

20       Q.   Was it announced in the morning, in the afternoon, or at night?

21       A.   Exactly at 11.00 a.m.

22       Q.   So, and you explained to the Trial Chamber that you had some

23    speech by Arif Pasalic; right?

24       A.   That's right.

25       Q.   Was it the only speech by Arif Pasalic that you had on the 30th of

Page 14340

 1    June?

 2       A.   Yes.

 3       Q.   And if I follow well your testimony, you just claimed that Pasalic

 4    called Muslims who lived on the western part of Mostar just to put up

 5    resistance to ABiH; right?

 6            JUDGE CLARK:  To HVO, I think.

 7            MR. PORIOUVAEV:  Oh, of course, Your Honour.

 8       A.   Can you please repeat the question?

 9       Q.   Today you told to the Trial Chamber that you heard Mr. Pasalic,

10    and in his speech he called the Muslims who lived on the west part of

11    Mostar to put up resistance to the HVO; right?

12       A.   Yes, that's right.

13       Q.   Did he call Muslims to attack the HVO troops?

14       A.   Well, I'll tell you now.  Well, I will repeat precisely what he

15    had said. "Muslims on the right bank, take rocks and stones into your

16    hands and confront the Ustasha."

17       Q.   Rocks and stones; right?

18       A.   That's right.  This is my precise response.

19       Q.   I appreciate your response.  Witness, again, according to your

20    testimony, that on some sixth or seventh day after your arrival to

21    Heliodrom, you were taken to Vinko Martinovic's place to work; right?

22       A.   I received a message from my wife, who asked that I go to Vinko.

23       Q.   So you were taken to Vinko Skrobo's place; right?

24       A.   Yes.

25       Q.   And who took you there in that black -- blue truck?

Page 14341












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Page 14342

 1       A.   All I know is that the driver's name was Dinko.  I don't know his

 2    last name.

 3       Q.   Was it the same Dinko who took you to that place on other

 4    occasions?

 5       A.   Yes.

 6            MR. PORIOUVAEV:  Your Honour, maybe now we should go into a

 7    private session for some point.

 8            JUDGE LIU:  Yes.  We'll go to the private session, please.

 9                          [Private session]

10  [redacted]

11  [redacted]

12  [redacted]

13  [redacted]

14  [redacted]

15  [redacted]

16  [redacted]

17  [redacted]

18  [redacted]

19  [redacted]

20  [redacted]

21  [redacted]

22  [redacted]

23  [redacted]

24  [redacted]

25  [redacted]

Page 14343













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Page 14344













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Page 14345













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Page 14346

 1  [redacted]

 2                          [Open session]

 3            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, Mr. Par.

 4            MR. PAR: [Interpretation] No objections, but can I ask Your

 5    Honours and my learned friend:  My direct examination lasted 45 minutes,

 6    and could this be done within the time?  It would be good to finish this

 7    witness today, because the Victims and Witnesses Unit has done all to have

 8    this group of witnesses on their way tomorrow, so I would appreciate it if

 9    the examination of this witness could be concluded today.  Thank you.

10            MR. PORIOUVAEV:  I would like to do it, but not to the detriment

11    of the case.

12       Q.   Witness, do you know any of Stela's soldiers?

13       A.   I do.

14       Q.   Please, to the best of your recollection, please, could you give

15    us some names?

16       A.   I know brothers Colak, I know Vlaho, I know the Peric brothers.

17       Q.   Did you know Ernest Takac, Dubravko --

18       A.   Yes.  Yes.

19       Q.   Do you know what kind of position they occupied, I mean the last

20    two?

21       A.   I think they were soldiers.

22       Q.   Witness, you just explained to the Trial Chamber that at some

23    point soldiers paid you by buying you cigarettes, food, and something

24    else, some minor things; is that correct?

25       A.   They didn't give us other things, but when it was time for a

Page 14347

 1    salary, they gave me money; they didn't give me any things.

 2       Q.   Who gave you a salary?

 3       A.   Not to me.  I mean when the troops received their salaries, then

 4    for the services that I rendered them, they would remunerate me.

 5       Q.   Soldiers?

 6       A.   Yes.

 7       Q.   Or better to say, your clients?

 8       A.   Well, perhaps later on when I started working in my own workshop,

 9    it is then that they became my clients.

10       Q.   So it was not Stela who paid you; right?

11       A.   Not right.  I could never pay back to Vinko Martinovic in any way

12    for what he did for me.  He's always paid me.

13       Q.   Do you know, Witness, if Vinko Martinovic was the only "Stela"

14    around?

15       A.   Yes.

16       Q.   And is it correct, Witness, that on one occasion you heard some

17    voices, something about Stela, when some people, soldiers, tried to steal

18    some vehicle?  Right?

19       A.   Right.

20       Q.   Why can we assume that it was his soldiers who were stealing

21    things? "Not" should be in the transcript.

22       A.   Well, I guess they would have recognised me had I drawn up the

23    blinds, but I do not think they would have aimed their rifles at me.

24       Q.   So they didn't recognise you?

25       A.   They did not.

Page 14348

 1       Q.   What kind of vehicles did you repair?

 2       A.   Well, usually small passenger cars, those that the troops used.

 3       Q.   Do you mean --

 4            THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, Mr. Poriouvaev.

 5            MR. PORIOUVAEV:

 6       Q.   Do you mean the vehicles that were used by soldiers, by troops?

 7    Right?

 8       A.   Yes.

 9       Q.   Did they have military plates?

10       A.   No.

11            MR. PORIOUVAEV:  I am coming up to the end.  My final -- pre-final

12    question, maybe.

13       Q.   Witness, did you sign any declaration while you were kept in

14    Heliodrom?

15       A.   I don't remember.

16       Q.   Do you hear about any declaration that was circulated among Muslim

17    prisoners in Heliodrom?

18       A.   No.

19            MR. PORIOUVAEV:  Your Honour, I'm very disciplined, so I completed

20    my cross-examination 45 minutes sharp.

21            JUDGE LIU:  Thank you very much.

22            Any re-examination?  Mr. Par.

23            MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Only one question.  Thank you.  I'd like

24    to thank my learned friend.

25                          Re-examined by Mr. Par:

Page 14349

 1       Q.   [Interpretation] Witness, do you know whether there is somebody

 2    else who is called Vinko Martinovic, Stela?

 3       A.   No, not Stela, but another Vinko Martinovic,

 4       Q.   Like Vinko Martinovic present here?

 5       A.   No, I'm not aware of such person.

 6            MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Very well.  Thank you.

 7            JUDGE LIU:  Witness, thank you very much for coming to give your

 8    evidence.  When the usher pulls down the blinds, he will show you out of

 9    the room.  All of us wish you a pleasant journey back home and a good

10    business in the future.

11            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12            JUDGE LIU:  Mr. Par, any documents to tender?

13                          [The witness withdrew]

14            MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Mr. President, thank you.  Only the map,

15    D2/33.

16            JUDGE LIU:  I guess there's no objections.

17            MR. PORIOUVAEV:  No objections, Your Honour.  I have no documents

18    to tender.

19            JUDGE LIU:  Thank you very much.  So this document is admitted

20    into the evidence, under seal.

21            Well, Mr. Par, we have received a list for the witnesses of the

22    next week, and I'm a little bit concerned that we will have five witnesses

23    on the list.  According to the speed we are now, probably we could finish

24    that list by Wednesday.  Are you considering to have one or two more

25    witnesses for next week?

Page 14350

 1            MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we provided a list of

 2    five witnesses because we thought that would fit into the schedule that we

 3    were given.  We thought that that would be a sensible number of witnesses,

 4    because we do not want to have a witness who will be here, wait, and then

 5    come back only after the summer recess.  The next group of witnesses are

 6    witnesses who will not be repetitive, meaning the witnesses who were here.

 7    We are beginning with a new group of witnesses, and these are soldiers,

 8    members of the Vinko Skrobo unit, and I believe that their examination

 9    will take longer, at least that the cross-examination will take longer.

10    And we thought -- we think, therefore, that five witnesses is quite a

11    reasonable number.  If we finish a day earlier, I think it is better than

12    to have somebody left over.

13            And another matter:  I do not think that it will be technically

14    possible for us to get another witness here, and we somehow thought that

15    if would be 15 witnesses.  We notified everybody else.  It is time of --

16    it is the holiday season and I'm not even sure whether we would be able to

17    get anyone to come here now.  Thank you.

18            JUDGE LIU:  That sounds reasonable.  Are there any protective

19    measures you are asking for those witnesses?

20            MR. PAR: [Interpretation] For those witnesses, we are asking for

21    the same protective measures as before, except that it is quite possible,

22    when one of those soldiers come, perhaps they will not need all the

23    protective measures that we applied for.  So perhaps they will not need

24    voice distortion or even pseudonyms.  Right now we thought it would be

25    better to be cautious and we applied for all the protective measures, so

Page 14351

 1    perhaps we shall renounce some of the protective measures.  We shall not

 2    be asking for more protective measures for these witnesses.  Thank you.

 3            JUDGE LIU:  Thank you very much.  And I believe that the voice

 4    distortion will take, you know, much effort to do it.  And frankly

 5    speaking, I'm not quite convinced by the voice distortion.  So you may

 6    reconsider, you know, that, you know, request during the weekend.  But

 7    anyway, we'll have all the protective measures in place just in case.

 8            So I understand -- Mr. Scott, I have something to address to this

 9    Bench, but I see there's only ten minutes left.  If you could finish

10    your statement or whatever you want to say in ten minutes, you may go on,

11    but if not, tomorrow we'll have the whole day for those procedural

12    matters.

13            MR. SCOTT:  Mr. President, I think I can try.  Perhaps the most

14    important thing, as I mentioned the other day, if I can alert the Chamber

15    to the issue before we go into recess and we now have -- we will have next

16    week for the Chamber to consider what steps, if any, the Chamber would

17    want to take in order to provide for the most efficient handling of the

18    case after the recess.

19            I think -- so I think I can cover it substantially,

20    Mr. President.  To assist the Chamber, I have prepared just a one-page

21    handout that maybe will assist in covering it as efficiently as possible.

22            If that could be provided, please, to Defence counsel and to Your

23    Honours.

24            It's just simply a list of names, and I think it's best,

25    Mr. President, to do this most efficiently and quickly if we go into

Page 14352

 1    private session.

 2            JUDGE LIU:  Yes.  We'll go to the private session, please.

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12                          --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

13                          7.03 p.m., to be reconvened on Monday,

14                          the 29th day of July 2002, at 2.15 p.m.