Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 15973

1 Tuesday, 8 October 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 [The witness withdrew]

6 --- Upon commencing at 9.32 a.m.

7 JUDGE LIU: Call the case, please, Madam Registrar.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number

9 IT-98-34-T, the Prosecutor versus Naletilic and Martinovic.

10 JUDGE LIU: Good morning, everybody. Before we have the witness,

11 we have two decisions to deliver. Yesterday this Trial Chamber received a

12 request for an ex parte hearing from Defence counsel of Mr. Naletilic.

13 The motion has been granted and we will hold the ex parte hearing today

14 after 4.00 this afternoon.

15 As for the rebuttal witnesses, according to the jurisprudence of

16 the Tribunal, rebuttal evidence must relate to the significant issue

17 arising directly out of the Defence evidence which could not reasonably

18 have been anticipated, rather than to produce additional witnesses to

19 reinforce its case.

20 In a decision rendered by this Trial Chamber on the 20th September

21 2002, three areas of issues have been identified in the rebuttal case,

22 namely, Sovici and Doljani events, wooden rifles and the Rados diary.

23 According to this criteria, the testimony of Madam Plony Bos is allowed.

24 As for the testimony of Mr. Prelec, so long as his testimony is

25 within the scope of the above-mentioned three areas, his testimony is also

Page 15974

1 allowed.

2 It is so decided.

3 Could we have the witness, please.

4 Yes, Mr. Par.

5 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Mr. President, yesterday I made a verbal

6 request, and I don't know whether the Trial Chamber has reached a

7 decision. I requested that the Prosecutor should be ordered to provide us

8 with the closing brief in Croatian. I don't know whether the Trial

9 Chamber has been deliberated on this matter, but if it hasn't, I'd be

10 grateful if you could, because I am going to insist on this. Thank you

11 very much.

12 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much, Mr. Par, for mentioning this

13 element. We remember that you mentioned that very issue. We are doing

14 some research at this moment in the jurisprudence of this Tribunal, and

15 after that, I believe that we could give you a proper answer in that

16 direction.

17 Yes, Mr. Krsnik.

18 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, first of all, good

19 morning. One thing isn't clear to me right now. I would be grateful if

20 the Prosecutor could clarify the matter. The statement that we received

21 from Mrs. Bos refers exclusively to those so-called wooden rifles and to

22 nothing else. In the request that we recently received from the

23 Prosecutor, the statement given by Ms. Bos, Plony Bos --

24 [The witness entered court]

25 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] -- and the submission we received

Page 15975

1 from the Prosecutor, we can see that according to that submission Ms. Bos

2 can now testify. Your Honours, we can deal with this matter at a later

3 stage.

4 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Yes, Mr. Scott.

5 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, I know the witness is here, but I'll be

6 very brief. In terms of the issues that Mr. Par has raised and the

7 Chamber has said it's doing some research on the issue, obviously the

8 Prosecution would like to be heard prior to any decision being made on

9 that. I'm concerned about a practice -- well, not a practice. I'm

10 concerned that in the past couple of days the Defence have raised a number

11 of issues which partly because of time constraints and, frankly, partly

12 because of restraint on behalf of the Prosecution, the Prosecution is not

13 being fully heard and before the Chamber would decide on these issues, we

14 would certainly want to be heard. We certainly oppose the Defence

15 request. We don't think it is the Tribunal jurisprudence. If the Chamber

16 wishes to establish a briefing schedule on the matter, we would file a

17 response.

18 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Scott, I think we have known your positions

19 on this very issue.

20 MR. SCOTT: Very well.

21 JUDGE LIU: Good morning, Witness.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

23 JUDGE LIU: Did you have a good rest yesterday?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I did.

25 JUDGE LIU: It is cold here in The Hague, so be careful.

Page 15976

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it is a bit.

2 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

3 Now, Mr. Krsnik, the cross-examination.

4 WITNESS: WITNESS AF [Resumed]

5 [Witness answered through interpreter]

6 Cross-examined by Mr. Krsnik:

7 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness.

8 A. Good morning.

9 Q. First of all, let me introduce myself. I'm Kresimir Krsnik. I'm

10 Defence counsel for Mr. Tuta.

11 A. Pleased to meet you.

12 Q. First of all, since I know that you aren't used to being in a

13 courtroom, I'm going to ask you to try and answer my questions by saying

14 yes or no. I won't interrupt you. Just feel free to say what you wish to

15 say?

16 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we first go into

17 private session?

18 Q. Witness, we'll be protecting your identity. We're going to go

19 into private session because there are a few questions I'd like to ask

20 you.

21 A. Very well.

22 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We'll go to the private session.

23 [Private session]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

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6 [Open session]

7 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Witness, we're in open session again, so we have to be careful.

9 You should be careful not to say your name, and I'll be careful too. We

10 have to cooperate like this. We're in open session now. Everyone can

11 hear what we are discussing.

12 Tell me: Yesterday you said you guarded some machines. Who did

13 you belong to?

14 A. Yes, but what do you mean exactly?

15 Q. Well, I don't know. Who sent you there?

16 A. Our superiors, the local authorities from the village, who were

17 involved in negotiations sent us there. Negotiations were taking place at

18 the time, and there was cooperation between the army and the HVO. And

19 from the very beginning, when they started building the road, there were

20 quite a lot of machines, private ones and company-owned machines. So they

21 wanted security to be provided for these machines. They wanted them to be

22 guarded overnight.

23 Q. Could you tell me: Do you know the name of the person who made

24 you responsible for this?

25 A. Yes, I do.

Page 15981

1 Q. Could you be so kind as to tell us?

2 A. Jure Groznica represented the HVO department and Dzemal Ovnovic

3 was there and he represented the army.

4 Q. They gave you that responsibility?

5 A. They agreed that there should be two Muslims there and two Croats.

6 Q. But you are a member of the BH army; isn't that correct?

7 A. No. I didn't belong to any one at the time, neither over there

8 nor here. Only after they joined up at the very beginning, Stipe Pole

9 enlisted me in the HVO, with Mr. Zelenika, Marko. So I was on the unit's

10 list from then onwards, from the beginning to the end.

11 Q. So you weren't a BH army member?

12 A. No.

13 Q. So you weren't in any of the armies; is that correct?

14 A. Well, that's correct, but I had to be listed somewhere, registered

15 somewhere.

16 Q. Could you tell me: Did you have a uniform and weapons? Were you

17 issued with equipment?

18 A. Well, I personally had a uniform, but I didn't have any weapons,

19 because there really weren't -- there really wasn't enough. And a

20 colleague who was with me on the shift, he had a rifle, so the two of us,

21 we were together, and we had one rifle.

22 Q. Wasn't there any -- weren't there any marks, any insignia on the

23 uniform?

24 A. No, there weren't any insignia, but very -- later on we were given

25 patches, but I didn't sew them on. It said the 3rd Battalion, Mijat

Page 15982

1 Tomic, but I kept this in my pocket.

2 Q. You mean Mijat Tomic from the HVO?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Was the BH army present in Sovici at all?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Do you know how many members the BH army had?

7 A. No, I don't know exactly.

8 Q. But approximately? You said that you spent your whole life in

9 Sovici.

10 A. Yes, but I don't know the exact number and I don't know who was

11 registered as a member. I don't know who was not at all involved in all

12 of this. In my opinion, there were over a hundred soldiers.

13 Q. Did people come from Jablanica and Prozor, for example?

14 A. No. There were no people from outside. Only later on, when there

15 were some problems in Prozor, and then some people who were more or less

16 refugees, they came over to us.

17 Q. So you didn't receive any help from Jablanica?

18 A. No.

19 Q. To whom did that unit from Sovici belong?

20 A. It belonged to the command headquarters in Jablanica.

21 Q. Do you know what that unit in Jablanica was called, or the staff,

22 and who was the commander?

23 A. Well, I don't know what it was called. It was called the army,

24 naturally. And I think the commander was Dlakic, Salim Dlakic something

25 like that.

Page 15983

1 Q. Tell me: Where were the BH army positions in Sovici?

2 A. I don't know exactly. They were somewhere up in the hill. I

3 think they had two positions. But I never went up there. But I did go up

4 there earlier on, so I knew those hills and the territory. They must have

5 had two positions up there. And the HVO was holding positions near them,

6 I think.

7 Q. Is it called Pasje Stijene or Povrsak, perhaps, if I could try to

8 refresh your memory?

9 A. Well, we have Povrsak, a place called Povrsak, a place called

10 Pasje Stijene.

11 Q. Were those the BH army positions?

12 A. Well, I don't know. We had positions there, but I don't know

13 whether that was the case or not. Maybe it was.

14 Q. But what -- why were they in danger. Why did they have positions

15 up there?

16 A. I don't know. Both sides took up position there in 1992, at the

17 very beginning of the conflict, with the Serbian side. So they negotiated

18 that if there was some sort of attack, if Chetniks came from Kupres, they

19 should be there to defend the villages, and that's what they did, both the

20 HVO and the army. They deployed there together and took up position as

21 they saw fit.

22 Q. Did you believe in this?

23 A. Well, at the beginning, yes, until the very end.

24 Q. You believed. Tell me: Did you have a schedule of some kind,

25 military occupational specialty?

Page 15984

1 A. No, I didn't have a military occupational specialty, because I

2 didn't serve in the former army, the former JNA either, so no, I never had

3 such a thing. And even when I was on the HVO list, when I was registered

4 with them, I haven't got any working experience which is recognised by

5 anyone. The army calls these people Ustashas. When I go to see the

6 Ustashas, they call me balija and so on. So throughout the entire period,

7 my family was mistreated in Sovici, because I was on the list of a certain

8 army.

9 Q. I understand you perfectly. But you said that you weren't a

10 member of any army, so I don't understand what you're saying now.

11 A. Well, I was on the list, but I have nothing anywhere now.

12 Q. What list?

13 A. The HVO list, from the time that we were made responsible for

14 guarding these machines right up until the attack on Sovici, and then we

15 were taken to the camp and --

16 Q. Well, we know about that. We'll talk about that later.

17 A. After I left the camp, I wasn't -- I didn't belong to anyone.

18 Q. I apologise for interrupting you, but you said that some people

19 would call you Ustashas. You mean they would call you yourself Ustasha?

20 A. Yes. The people who lived with me before, the Muslims, and

21 certain individuals from the commands too, would call me Ustasha.

22 Q. Did Dzemal Ovnovic call you this?

23 A. No. No, he didn't. Dzemal didn't.

24 Q. What sort of relationship did you have with Dzemal Ovnovic?

25 A. Well, as far as you're relationship was concerned, well, it was

Page 15985

1 more or less normal, human. We never quarrelled. I never quarrelled with

2 him, but I never really cooperated with him, and I don't to this day.

3 Q. Did he want to arrest you on one occasion?

4 A. Yes, he did.

5 Q. Why did he want to arrest you?

6 A. Well, there are several reasons. It's not really ...

7 Q. Well, maybe you could give us a few details?

8 A. Well, no. It shocked me. I know you're right, but I don't want

9 to talk about it.

10 Q. Is it the same Dzemal Ovnovic who was the commander of the BH army

11 in Sovici?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Did you ever talk to him after the arrest, or did your

14 relationship cool?

15 A. No, we weren't really in touch all that much, not even before the

16 arrest. His behaviour was somehow slightly different.

17 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Stringer.

18 MR. STRINGER: I apologise to counsel for the interruption, but I

19 think it would be useful if we could know the time frame in which this

20 arrest occurred, or the arrest that Mr. Krsnik is now asking about. I'm

21 not sure whether it's in 1993 or in 1987, for example.

22 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Yes, Mr. Krsnik. Still we know next to nothing

23 about this arrest. When did it happen, how, and where? Would you please

24 clarify those issues for us.

25 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] By all means, Your Honour. As you

Page 15986

1 can see, that is exactly what I'm trying to do now, establish good

2 communication with the witness. I'm not sure if this went down in the

3 record, but the witness said that he refused to discuss this. It was out

4 of politeness that I chose not to insist on certain details, but I will

5 certainly at least ask you about the year in which this happened.

6 Q. Please assist the Court, be so kind because we all want to know.

7 A. It must have been somewhere in late 1992 or early 1993.

8 Q. Could you please tell us whether he came for you with the military

9 police?

10 A. Yes, but we were not at home at that point because we were out

11 doing labour.

12 Q. Can you please tell me if that was the BH military police?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. There's something I don't quite understand. I think I am

15 beginning to realise what this is all about, because yesterday I failed to

16 understand the whole extent of it, I must admit. You said yesterday that

17 you were not a member of the HVO, and you repeated this to me again today,

18 that you were not a member of any of the different armies. Please let me

19 finish. And a document that was shown to you by the Prosecutor yesterday,

20 you said it was false and that you were never a member of the HVO but that

21 your brother was, or something to that effect. Was your brother too a

22 member of the HVO?

23 A. Yes.

24 JUDGE CLARK: Sorry, Mr. Krsnik. I was listening to the evidence

25 yesterday and again this morning, and unless the translation fails the

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Page 15988

1 Court, I don't believe that was said. This man has said, over and over

2 and over again, that he was on a list, an HVO list, because of the work

3 which he carried out. He even had a uniform. He even had insignia for

4 the Mijat Tomic 3rd Battalion, which he didn't wear; he kept in his

5 pocket. How much clearer can he be?

6 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I would be very

7 grateful to you indeed. I've only just begun my cross-examination.

8 Please, if you can just bear with me and see where I'm taking the witness

9 to. We've only just begun to obtain certain clarifications.

10 JUDGE CLARK: Mr. Krsnik, I don't in any way want to constrain

11 your cross-examination, but you must be fair, and that's our function

12 here, to make sure that people are fair. You cannot say to this witness

13 that he said something which he clearly didn't say.

14 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] By all means, Your Honour, but that

15 was never my intention to begin with. All this time, you remember my

16 objections to the Prosecution. I always say that you can't claim

17 something that isn't grounded in anything. Do you think I would try

18 something like that myself? No. Your Honour, please bear with me, and

19 you will soon see why I am driving this witness down this road, very soon.

20 JUDGE CLARK: Well, you have to drive on the right side of the

21 road. I bear in mind that sometimes translations are difficult, but

22 certainly it seems to me, and I think to the Prosecution and to the rest

23 of the Bench, that you were putting something to the witness that he

24 didn't say. That's all. Now, I won't say any more.

25 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm really not clear

Page 15989

1 about this now. You've got me a bit confused.

2 Q. Please, Witness. Excuse us. We'll continue shortly.

3 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] My colleagues tell me - and we have

4 the transcript too, so we can restate the question, what the witness said

5 yesterday. He said he was formerly a member of the HVO but that he was

6 not a member of the HVO. Is that what you said yesterday?

7 A. Yes, I was a member indeed, but I never joined any of the actions

8 except the drill once. Something was to be done for the army or - let me

9 specify - we were supposed to put up a privy somewhere out in the field

10 and then we were supposed to block some windows.

11 Q. Yes, that's exactly what I was saying. Please, Witness, believe

12 me. I'll never insinuate anything you didn't say, and thank you for

13 providing this clarification. But if that was also your role in the HVO -

14 I was myself in the army, so I know what I'm talking about - you must have

15 had some sort of task assigned to you there. Did you receive salary?

16 A. Yes, we did receive salary for all those days that we spent

17 guarding the machines, that sort of thing.

18 Q. Please tell me: Was it by mistake that you were on the list in

19 the HVO as more or less a sharpshooter, a sniper?

20 A. Well, maybe they did assign some roles and put it down with

21 schedules, but this is nothing that I would know about. I was not really

22 interested in this, let me tell you. All those actions, movements,

23 military plans or codes. My father was very ill. He was bedridden back

24 home, had been for two years. I wasn't interested in any of those other

25 things.

Page 15990

1 Q. Very well. Did you have walkie-talkies?

2 A. Me personally, no.

3 Q. You never did, did you?

4 A. Yes, we used to have one before. It was a very small, hand-held

5 walkie-talkie. It was used by children to play, and we would take this

6 with us when we went hunting. But that was before the 1990s. A neighbour

7 of ours gave it to us. He was a hunter and he had worked in Germany.

8 Q. How many of those did you have?

9 A. We had five all together. I had one, two, but I never kept it at

10 my place. I'd only keep it for the other person for several days, if I

11 couldn't go hunting myself. Then somewhere else would go and they would

12 come to my place and pick it up.

13 Q. Witness, could you please consider this: What will you tell me

14 now if I remind you of the statements you had given before? First of all,

15 I have before me a statement that you gave on the 11th of January, 1996,

16 to the AID in Konjic.

17 A. No, never in Konjic.

18 Q. Well, I think we can ascertain very soon whether this indeed is

19 your signature. In that statement, you claim that you had been a member

20 of the BH army since 1992, and in a statement you gave three months ago,

21 and here before the investigators, you claimed that you were a member of

22 the BH army.

23 A. No, that's not correct.

24 Q. Well, I can show this to you, just to be fair, you know.

25 A. No. I know exactly what was happening there. At the very

Page 15991

1 beginning of the whole thing, they had my name on a list, although I never

2 really had anything to do with that army, and I never went anywhere with

3 them, and I was not familiar with anything. But after I had left the

4 camp, immediately after I had left the camp --

5 Q. Please, let's just take one thing at a time and let's just clarify

6 all of the points. It's only fair to everyone, I think.

7 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Mr. Usher. [In English]

8 Madam Registrar, would you be so kind? [Interpretation] This statement,

9 we'll send copies to the booth. It's not a very long statement, so -- [In

10 English] I would like to show him many parts of this -- yes, when I tell

11 to you, then ... [Interpretation] Unfortunately, we only have the

12 statement in Croatian, because when the Prosecution summoned this witness,

13 we had no time left to do the translation. However, it's a very brief

14 statement, and --

15 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Stringer.

16 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, if it would assist, this statement

17 was disclosed by the Prosecution to the Defence, and we have an English

18 translation, in fact. I don't know whether an English translation was

19 disclosed or not, offhand, but if it would assist anyone, I have one with

20 me, anyway, and we can make copies if it would assist the Trial Chamber.

21 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

22 Mr. Krsnik told us that it's a very short statement and that he

23 was not going to use it very extensively. So I believe that, you know, we

24 could rely on the translation in the booth.

25 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'd be very happy

Page 15992

1 indeed, and I thank my colleague, the Prosecutor, if the English version

2 could be provided. It's about two, two and a half pages long, the

3 statement. I will be using it, and I was going to tender it into

4 evidence, in fact. Number 414. And I thank my colleague from the

5 Prosecution again for his assistance with the English text, because we

6 never had an English translation of this statement.

7 JUDGE LIU: Would you please proceed, and while the registrar will

8 copy that English version for that statement at the same time.

9 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Usher, could you please just first

10 show the witness the bottom of each page.

11 Q. And witness, please answer: Is this your signature at the bottom

12 of all of these pages here? You can see, bottom of the page.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. So you have confirmed this by signing, and you say you have

15 nothing further to add. So of course you are telling the truth in this

16 statement, aren't you?

17 A. I am telling the truth in all of my statements, not only in this

18 one.

19 Q. Would you please have a look, this statement here. You see this

20 spot here: "I surrendered to HVO soldiers on the 17th," and so on. "We

21 found there 50 members of the BH army." Can you see that?

22 A. Yes, I can.

23 Q. Could you please explain why in this and the other statement you

24 made, you claimed you were a BH army member?

25 A. What exactly do you mean?

Page 15993

1 Q. Meaning that you were a member of the BH army, not of the HVO.

2 A. Well, as soon as we were arrested --

3 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Stringer.

4 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, I don't have the English version in

5 my hand now, and I don't want to make any response -- certain response in

6 front of the witness. I think it would be very useful if we had the

7 English text in front of us if counsel is going to continue making the

8 assertion that the statement says that the witness claimed he was a member

9 of the BH army.

10 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have here the

11 statement in English, so I would like to ask the usher to please give this

12 to the Chamber. It was a statement given t to ICTY investigators. I know

13 the translation is running behind a little bit, and I can see the looks on

14 your faces, so please just bear with me, a little patience. This

15 statement was given to the investigators. I have the statement in

16 English. And on page 1, it clearly states -- here it is. So can I have

17 this distributed, please?

18 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

19 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] And this is the statement given on

20 the 9th of April, 2001 -- correction. 2002. Page 1 clearly states: "I

21 too was a member of the army," et cetera. So you can have a look and see

22 for yourselves. That's what I'm asking this witness. I'm not making this

23 up. Why did he say that he was a member of the BH army and here he's

24 telling us that he was an HVO member, in any capacity.

25 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Krsnik, this trial has been going on for

Page 15994

1 quite a long time. We made a decision concerning using the document in

2 the cross-examination, that is, before your cross-examination, please

3 furnish us with all the documents you are going to use during the

4 cross-examination so that at least this Chamber, the registrar, could be

5 prepared for the necessary copies of those documents in order to

6 facilitate the proceedings. But now we come across the issue that we

7 don't have the documents at our hands.

8 Yes, Mr. Stringer.

9 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, just for clarification, there are

10 two statements. Until the very last remarks of counsel, we were talking

11 about the statement dated the 11th of January, 1996 that was provided to

12 the authorities in Bosnia-Herzegovina. That's the statement that I

13 offered to provide the English translation of. At the very -- within the

14 last few moments now, counsel has referred to the other statement, which

15 is in fact the statement provided to the OTP on the 9th of April, 2002.

16 The original version of that statement is in English, but there are two,

17 and so I think that it would help me, anyway, if counsel could stick with

18 one, or at least inform us which one he's talking about.

19 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

20 MR. STRINGER: And by the way, I have the B/C/S translation of the

21 second statement, which is the OTP statement, in the courtroom with me, if

22 it would assist the witness in looking at that statement. Counsel comes

23 to that point --

24 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, please allow me.

25 Please, let us not create any more confusion than necessary. I have a

Page 15995

1 very serious and important cross-examination here, and I know exactly what

2 I'm doing. The Prosecution can stand up as often as they like, but that

3 will not keep me from going through every single detail with this witness

4 that I have envisaged. He has interrupted me exactly four times up to

5 now. Please, put yourself in my shoes. It's very difficult to follow the

6 thread of the cross-examination. As soon as we come to an area which the

7 Prosecution doesn't like, problems arise. I wasn't going to show the

8 witness any other statements today, apart from this one. I do have

9 several of them prepared just in case, but the Prosecution did the same

10 thing and he told me that he was laying an ambush for my witnesses, so he

11 only gave me the statements a minute before the cross-examination began.

12 So can I now continue my cross-examination, please?

13 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

14 Well, Mr. Stringer.

15 MR. STRINGER: Your Honour, these statements were disclosed to the

16 Defence well in advance of this morning's proceedings. What counsel just

17 said is simply not true.

18 JUDGE LIU: We know that. We know that. Let's not argue on this

19 issue.

20 Mr. Krsnik, since the first statement is being copied, would you

21 please concentrate on the second statement, because we have already have

22 the English translation at our hands. You may ask some questions on the

23 second statement, and then later on, when we've got the English

24 translation, you may come back to the first statement that was made in

25 1996.

Page 15996

1 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Witness, please excuse us. You know, this is a courtroom, so this

3 is the sort of discussion we usually have. So please don't get confused.

4 First of all, I'd like to ask you the following question: You

5 told us twice today that you had never given any statements after 1994.

6 You said this twice. You also claim that you never gave a statement in

7 Konjic.

8 A. No, never.

9 Q. But here you see, it's your own signature.

10 A. No. Perhaps this statement was taken in Jablanica, but --

11 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Stringer.

12 MR. STRINGER: I'm reading from the transcript counsel's question,

13 in which he puts to the witness the assertion that twice already today the

14 witness had claimed that he had never given any statements after 1994.

15 Now, that's false. The witness has already testified that he gave a

16 statement, what he estimated to be some two to three months ago. He

17 didn't disagree with counsel's assertion that a statement was in fact

18 given in April of the year 2002. So again, I think counsel -- I'd request

19 that counsel be more careful in the assertions, the characterisations of

20 the witness's testimony, that he's then turning and putting back to the

21 witness in a different form. It's simply not true what he's just said

22 again.

23 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Krsnik, please continue with your questions,

24 but be careful of the -- not to mischaracterise what the witness says.

25 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have put my submission

Page 15997

1 correctly, and I see that the Prosecution is very eager to keep rising all

2 the time. They should just remain standing, because they keep having

3 objections. I said the truth. The witness said that he had never given

4 any statements to the police after 1994. The transcript is quite clear.

5 That's as long as the translation is correct.

6 JUDGE LIU: Well, we'll look into the transcript. You continue

7 your question, please.

8 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I am very worried about

9 this, because we've been studying transcripts, and you know well --

10 Q. Witness, please, can you tell me: Did you tell me this morning,

11 when I asked you about Mostar and Jablanica in 1994, that you never gave

12 any further statements to the police?

13 A. No, not to the police, but three months ago, in Mostar, yes.

14 Q. Yes, exactly. That's what you told me the first time around.

15 Well, you see, but the Prosecution reacts to this and they tell me the

16 opposite. But that was exactly what you said the first time around. You

17 said no further statements to the police until my statement to the

18 investigators three months ago. So I'm very glad to ask you this

19 question, and we can now keep on working together, because the date here

20 is 1996.

21 A. Maybe they put the statements together at some later stage, or

22 much later even, because the way they took these statements, they only

23 singled out several details, wrote them down on a separate sheet of paper

24 and then had them typed later on. But this was not typed in my presence,

25 typewritten in my presence. I was only called later to sign these

Page 15998

1 statements, but I had never had a chance to read this statement, so I had

2 no means to monitor what they actually wrote down. As far as this

3 statement is concerned, they only took several details from me, wrote them

4 down on just a common piece of paper, and then after a month, or more, I

5 was called to sign these statements. But I had never even read them.

6 Q. Who were "they"?

7 A. Those people from the police who came to see me.

8 Q. So you told them the story, then they would leave, they would have

9 a statement typewritten, without letting you read it and then they would

10 bring it back to you to sign it?

11 A. Yes. If this is the statement from Konjic, because I think that's

12 probably the way it was done. Actually, I didn't give this statement at

13 the police station. It was in a house.

14 Q. Here it reads: "CSB Mostar, Security Services Centre, State

15 Security Department in Mostar." It says: "Department of the State

16 Security, Konjic."

17 A. No, that's not the same thing, because I never went to Konjic.

18 Q. I do believe you, but can you please help us with this: Here it

19 reads -- you signed the three pages of this document, so where did you

20 sign this document?

21 A. In Jablanica.

22 Q. In Jablanica?

23 A. Yes, at the police station.

24 Q. So how long did they take to bring this statement back to you to

25 look at?

Page 15999

1 A. Well, they took the statement in a house, maybe not the entire

2 statement, so maybe at a later stage, in Jablanica or in Konjic, they put

3 the statement together. So after a while I was called to sign this

4 statement. But this here, they could have added anything, possibly even

5 something different from what I had originally said.

6 Q. Was this their usual practice?

7 A. I don't know this about me being a member or that I surrendered.

8 I don't know anything about that. That's what they wrote.

9 Q. But you did tell the investigators the very same thing three

10 months ago. In your statement, page number -- page 1, the first page of

11 your statement: "I was a member of the army. It was part of my work

12 obligation. My duty in the army was the maintenance and guarding of

13 machinery," and so on and so forth. So even in your statement of three

14 months ago, you claim you were a member of the BH army and not of the HVO.

15 A. Well, you see, when I was a member there, I'd be on a list as a

16 member of the BH army, and that's how I ended up in prison, because my

17 name was simply wrong. If my name was Mato, I would not be detained on

18 that day probably, you know.

19 Q. I do agree with you, Witness.

20 A. However, I do not agree with you.

21 Q. I just need a number of points clarified. Please don't get me

22 wrong.

23 A. No, I don't think I'm getting you wrong. You quote here the

24 beginning of some statement. I'm not really sure about anything any more

25 after all the suffering that I've gone through.

Page 16000

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Page 16001

1 Q. That seems to be the problem, yes. That's why I'm trying to help

2 everyone to reach the truth. You see, you have also stated, both during

3 one of the hearings and also in the statement you gave to the

4 investigators, that you surrendered at Stipe Pole's house. In the very

5 first statement you gave to the AID, you said you were in front of a

6 school building and that that was where you surrendered.

7 A. No. I surrendered at Stipe Pole's house.

8 Q. You have the statement in front of you, so can you just please

9 look at the fifth sentence of that statement. It reads: "After we had

10 surrendered to HVO soldiers, they told us to go to the school building in

11 Sovici and hand over our weapons there."

12 A. Yes, but since we didn't go in front of the school, they brought

13 us to Stipe Pole's house. It reads clearly that we were told to go to the

14 school building, but there was nothing. Nothing happened in front of the

15 school building, but rather in front of Stipe Pole's house. It says

16 clearly that we should go to the school building and hand over our

17 weapons.

18 Q. Yes, but look a bit further.

19 A. Yes, I'm looking a bit further down.

20 Q. It says: "In front of the school building, we found 50 members of

21 the BH army who had surrendered earlier." After I surrendered my weapon,"

22 so that means you surrendered your weapon in front of the school building?

23 A. No. That was in front of Stipe Pole's house. And what this

24 means -- because actually, you can't tell the destination here. If you

25 don't know where Stipe Pole's house is, you must understand that it's very

Page 16002

1 close to the actual school building, perhaps 150 metres away. So if

2 you're looking for someone who lives near the school building, you would

3 be told, "Go look somewhere in the vicinity of the school building."

4 Q. Yes, I do know where Stipe Pole's house is because I did go to

5 Sovici myself. Is the small restaurant across the way still there?

6 A. Yes. I still often go there for a drink.

7 Q. That was exactly what I wanted to ask you now. So this restaurant

8 is still open?

9 A. Yes, it is.

10 Q. And tell me. Then it continues. Ivan Rogic, he ordered me to

11 leave the group of prisoners. Then he cursed me," et cetera, et cetera.

12 A. Yes, yes.

13 Q. Wait. Wait a minute. And then you say that someone wanted to

14 kill you, although in the statement that you gave to the investigator, the

15 events were described in a different way with regard to the incident

16 involving Ivica Tomic and Mate Krtic. But you told the investigators

17 something quite different.

18 A. What do you mean?

19 Q. Well, I'll tell you.

20 A. I know what you mean. I didn't mention these details. There are

21 other details that I didn't mention.

22 Q. I'm not saying what you didn't mention. I'm talking about what

23 you did mention. You mentioned the same detail, but you described the

24 event in three different ways. For example, you said you were locked in a

25 cellar with 70 other people in Stipe Pole's cellar. In the statement that

Page 16003

1 you gave to the investigators, you say it was with 10 to 20 people, and in

2 the first statement we don't know how many people there were. And now you

3 are claiming -- well, we have three different versions. In the first

4 version, you say that you remained in the cellar alone.

5 A. Yes, that's correct.

6 Q. So that's true?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. But why did you then tell investigators that you were all taken

9 together to the school?

10 A. They were all forced out, but I was forced out to the school a

11 little later, maybe ten minutes later.

12 Q. But see what you said in your statement: "After that, they threw

13 me into the cellar with the other prisoners."

14 A. In the school?

15 Q. No. In the cellar.

16 A. Well, when Mr. Tomic took me out to shoot me, and he wasn't

17 allowed to by Mato Tomic [phoen]. That was in front of the house of Stipe

18 Pole, not in front of the school, the exact spot where the cafe is now,

19 but there was no cafe there at the time. There was a place where buses

20 could turn around there at the time.

21 Q. Could you be so kind as to clarify what you stated?

22 A. You don't have to read it out. I'm very well aware of what I

23 said. But perhaps certain details haven't been included in all the

24 statements, or perhaps certain details vary.

25 Q. But look, these details are very important, because we must know

Page 16004

1 the truth.

2 A. I personally know what the truth is. I know about those details,

3 because I was in the cellar. You weren't. And I lived through this.

4 JUDGE LIU: Well, it seems that this conversation is too fast. It

5 makes the interpretation very difficult to follow.

6 Witness, I understand that you're eager to give your evidence, but

7 whatever you said in this courtroom will be translated into the other two

8 languages, that is, English and the French. We rely very much on the

9 interpretation of your testimony. So please wait for a while after you

10 hear the question, then answer it. Try to slow down a little bit.

11 Mr. Krsnik, I believe that you know that already, yes. Please

12 continue.

13 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

14 Q. Witness, you've heard what the Judges have said. We speak the

15 same language and that can create a problem. So could you please wait for

16 me to finish my question and then I will wait for you to finish your

17 answer, so that we don't get in each other's way.

18 A. Very well.

19 Q. Well, I'm going to read out what you said about the cellar now, so

20 could you be so kind. Once I've read this out, you can say what you want:

21 "After that, they threw me into the cellar with the other

22 prisoners. At about 2300 hours, all the prisoners were taken to the

23 school, and I was the only person left in Stipe Pole's cellar."

24 And then you go on:

25 "Around midnight --" so a minute ago we heard your fourth version,

Page 16005

1 according to which it was ten minutes later. Yesterday you didn't mention

2 that at all, or rather, you said that you had been taken to the school

3 immediately. And now you are saying:

4 "Around midnight, Ivan Rogic and Vicko Bozic and Andrija Groznica

5 came to the cellar."

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And then they beat you, et cetera, et cetera. Is that true?

8 A. Yes, that's true.

9 Q. So what you told the investigators from the Tribunal, what you

10 said at the hearing yesterday, is not true?

11 A. No, that's not true.

12 Q. And tell me: What is true in this case, at the hearing yesterday

13 and to investigators from the Tribunal, you said that someone wanted to

14 decapitate you with an axe.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And at the hearing, you said Tuta's soldiers, and in the statement

17 you gave to investigators of the Tribunal, you said that the neighbour

18 wanted to cut your head off. And this is what you said in the first

19 statement.

20 A. But sir, that's not true.

21 Q. I'll read it out and then you can tell me what's true. I just

22 want you to decide what the truth is. You are the one who knows:

23 "At about 1200 on the following day, I was taken to the smoking

24 house, next to Pole Ivan's house, also known as Bilon."

25 At the hearing you said a kitchen. In the statement given to the

Page 16006

1 investigators, you said a school kitchen.

2 A. Not a school kitchen. You're not right. I said Pole Ivan's

3 kitchen.

4 Q. Yesterday you said a summer kitchen. We could go back to that.

5 And the Prosecutor immediately intervened and said smoking house.

6 A. Well, the smoking house or kitchen, someone calls it a summer

7 kitchen, et cetera.

8 Q. Well, I've never heard that a summer kitchen could be in a smoking

9 house. There's smoke there, isn't there?

10 A. Well, sir, this is called a summer kitchen. You smoke meat there,

11 and there is a fire there, et cetera.

12 Q. But in the statement that you gave to the investigators, this is

13 what you said:

14 "Tuta's people took me to the school kitchen, which my neighbour,

15 Pole Ivan, and not Stipe, used, and they wanted to chop my head off. Two

16 of Tuta's men put my head on a log, a log that was usually used for

17 cutting up meat. A neighbour was preparing to kill me with an axe."

18 A. Where does it state that?

19 Q. Well, it's in the statement you gave on the 9th of April, 2002,

20 and it is on page 2, at the bottom. It's the statement that you gave to

21 the investigators three months ago.

22 A. No, no. I said neighbour. Well, we're all neighbours. I didn't

23 say whether it was this neighbour or that neighbour.

24 Q. And Tuta's people your neighbours?

25 A. Yes. Tuta's people, yes. But no, no. Tuta's people, they came

Page 16007

1 there, but the neighbours, they were observers.

2 Q. And this is what you said in the first statement that you gave to

3 the AID. You went to the smoking house, Pole Ivan's smoking house, and

4 you were asked whether you had any weapons -- no, you were asked about

5 weapons.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. "They told me to lie down on my stomach. There were five or six

8 HVO soldiers who were around me, and I did not know them. And at the door

9 to the smoking house, Stipe Kopilas was there and Juka Groznica."

10 A. Yes, Juka Groznica.

11 Q. One of the soldiers had an axe in his hands.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Now I'm asking you: Is that the truth?

14 A. Yes, it's the truth.

15 Q. So what you told the Tribunal's investigators and at the hearing

16 yesterday is not true. We can't have three versions of the truth.

17 A. What do you mean?

18 Q. Well, the neighbour wasn't the person who had an axe in his hand.

19 A. No.

20 Q. So that's why I'm asking you about this.

21 A. No. The neighbours were sitting in front of that kitchen and they

22 were observing what was happening there. They were observing what was

23 being done to me. But in fact the observers incited them to do this.

24 Q. I just want us to agree on the truth so that we know what we're

25 talking about. At the hearing yesterday, you said that Tuta's people

Page 16008

1 wanted to use that axe on you.

2 A. Well, it was mostly Tuta's people, because the neighbours, they

3 were giving instructions, but the people from the side, whom we did not

4 know, they were the people who were acting and maltreating us.

5 Q. Witness, we have three varying statements. Could you help all of

6 us and say whether the unidentified soldier had the axe in his hands, or

7 whether it was a neighbour. That's what it says in the statement that you

8 gave to the investigators. Was a neighbour of yours holding the axe? And

9 did a neighbour want to kill you, or were Tuta's people involved?

10 A. Tuta's people, whom I do not know.

11 Q. So what it says in two of the statements is not true, is not

12 correct?

13 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Stringer.

14 MR. STRINGER: I'd like to know which two statements are

15 incorrect. I simply don't know. Counsel is referring now to three

16 statements. I only know about two. I know what was said yesterday.

17 JUDGE LIU: Well, I think one is the neighbour of the witness

18 holding the axe; another is the identified soldiers holding the axe; the

19 last one is Tuta's people involved. Is that true?

20 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Correct. At the hearing, the witness

21 said that Tuta's people were involved. It was stated yesterday.

22 JUDGE LIU: Which --

23 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] In the statement given on the -- in

24 April 2002 --

25 JUDGE LIU: Ask the witness which two statements is not true.

Page 16009

1 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Well, that's what I've been asking

2 the witness all the time, and the Prosecutor keeps interrupting me.

3 Q. Witness, you can see how long it takes us to get to the real

4 issue. Could you tell me now: Is it correct to say that a neighbour was

5 preparing to kill you with an axe? This is in the statement that you gave

6 to the investigators. It's on page 3 of the statement that you gave to

7 the Prosecution from this Tribunal. That's not true then?

8 A. No. If it had been a neighbour, I would have named him, and I

9 would have named the man if I had known him.

10 Q. Just a minute. Let's try and make this brief. You mean to say

11 that it's not true?

12 A. What do you mean?

13 Q. That a neighbour was preparing to kill you with an axe.

14 A. Well, I think you're going a bit too far with this.

15 Q. Just tell me whether it's true.

16 A. A neighbour did not have an axe in his hands. Tuta's soldiers

17 were. The neighbour was an observer.

18 Q. Just a minute, then. I'm just trying to clarify this.

19 JUDGE LIU: Well --

20 MR. STRINGER: It seems to me, although it's going so fast, but it

21 seems to me that counsel is not giving the witness a fair opportunity to

22 respond to his questions before the next question comes flying at him, and

23 that's my objection.

24 JUDGE LIU: Yes. I have the same feeling, Mr. Krsnik. Just go

25 step by step, and slowly, so that we can know which two statements are not

Page 16010

1 true. Yes.

2 JUDGE CLARK: Sorry, Mr. President.

3 Mr. Krsnik, I'm trying to keep up with you, and I have my note of

4 what this witness said yesterday in relation to this particular incident,

5 and I have the two statements, and I have difficulty in finding, but I'm

6 sure you'll direct me, to the passage, any part of the statements which

7 says that the neighbour had the axe. Everything I see suggests that

8 soldiers had the axe, while the neighbours were watching. I think you're

9 putting to this witness -- Judge Liu has shown it to me. Judge Liu, I'm

10 looking at. Okay. Judge Liu has shown me the passage you're referring

11 to. Go ahead. Thank you.

12 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Well, Witness, as you can see, we have now agreed that what you

14 said to the investigators is not true. But in the statement that you have

15 in front of you, halfway through, in the statement that you gave to the

16 AID, you said --

17 A. Well, I know what I said and what I experienced, but perhaps a few

18 things differ. But I'm not here to lie or to accuse anyone of having done

19 something that that person did not do.

20 Q. Well, this is what I'm worried about, because in 1996, you know,

21 your memory was still fresh.

22 A. Well, my memory isn't fresh even today, after all of the traumas.

23 It can't be fresh.

24 Q. Do you know what is worrying me, Witness? And I'd be grateful if

25 you could help me, you know. How is that that in 1996 you named each

Page 16011

1 soldier, whom you knew, whereas for those you did not know, you said that

2 you didn't know those soldiers, but you never mentioned Mr. Tuta? That's

3 what worries me, and this is why I want to discuss this matter with you.

4 I hope I'm behaving in a civilised way.

5 A. Well, there's really nothing I could say about Mr. Tuta, because I

6 only saw him on one occasion, and I have nothing to say about him. I said

7 that I saw him on that day and that I never saw him after that, so there's

8 nothing I could add about the man.

9 Q. Well, be honest. Are you sure that it was Tuta or did someone

10 else tell you that was Tuta? Tell us honestly: Could you claim that you

11 know this personally, for sure, or were you told -- is this something

12 someone told you later on in a camp?

13 A. What?

14 Q. That it was Tuta.

15 A. Well, Tuta was there on that day when we were there. I don't know

16 if he was there later on, because we were detained there, and the local

17 people, our local people, our neighbours, the soldiers, and others, they

18 came and said, "You'll see him now. That's Tuta." Tuta entered the

19 school. They let him have an office, which was used by the teachers

20 there. There were some other people there whom I really do not know. And

21 this is where they questioned soldiers, et cetera, et cetera. I really

22 didn't go in there. I wasn't questioned, and I have nothing to say.

23 Q. Very well. But what I want to ask you, and I will repeat this

24 question: Do you personally know this as a fact or were you told about

25 this?

Page 16012

1 A. Well, people, soldiers, told me about this.

2 Q. So you don't personally -- you didn't personally know that that

3 was Tuta?

4 A. When he entered, that was the first time I saw him. I had heard

5 about him before, but I had never seen him before.

6 Q. But tell me: How tall are you?

7 A. One metre and 82 centimetres.

8 Q. How tall was this person, the person whom you call Tuta?

9 A. Well, he was perhaps as tall as I am, and maybe even taller.

10 Q. Would you be so kind to stand up? Could you stand up so that I

11 can see how tall you are? If Tuta was even taller than you, I would like

12 you to stand up.

13 A. No, I'm not going to stand up.

14 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Stringer.

15 MR. STRINGER: I think that may raise a problem with the facial

16 distortion, Mr. President. That's the concern.

17 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we understand so. We know how tall 1 metre and

18 82 centimetres is.

19 MR. KRSNIK: Okay.

20 Q. [Interpretation] Tell me: How tall am I, in your opinion? Am I a

21 lot shorter than you? Can I ask you this?

22 A. I don't know. Maybe 1 metre, 75, 1 metre 76, something like that.

23 Q. Yes, give or take a centimetre. And what if I tell you that

24 Mr. Tuta is as tall as I am?

25 A. I don't know.

Page 16013

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Page 16014

1 Q. Very well. So the person who was as tall as you, or perhaps even

2 taller than you, does this cast doubt on what other people said, on what

3 people said about this person being Tuta?

4 A. Well, you want to say that Tuta wasn't there?

5 Q. Just a minute. Do you know why I want you to say this? Because

6 you never stated such a thing until June in the year 2000. Just a minute.

7 We will come to all of these issues.

8 In the first statement, you said nothing about this. What you

9 said to the investigators doesn't include anything about Tuta or the

10 person whom you called Tuta. It says nothing about Tuta receiving an

11 office in which he could question people. This is not something that you

12 said in April of this year. So just a few months ago. And this is

13 something that you're claiming at the hearing now.

14 A. Well, perhaps that was left out, but that's in fact what happened.

15 Q. But could you tell me -- could you describe Cikota?

16 A. Well, Cikota was about your height, his hair was short, he had

17 fair hair. He was well built.

18 Q. Yes. That's what you said. Cikota was short, he had fair hair,

19 and he was plump. Are you sure that was Cikota?

20 A. Well, his men called him by that name, and that's who he was.

21 Q. Well, look. Cikota was 2 metres and 5 centimetres tall. Do you

22 know what that means?

23 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Stringer.

24 MR. STRINGER: I object to the question on the grounds there's no

25 basis -- there's nothing in evidence on that fact, and I think counsel is

Page 16015

1 not qualified to testify himself on that point.

2 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

3 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] The witness has testified. If you

4 check the transcript to see what the witness has said when I asked him how

5 tall Cikota was and what he looked like. These are well-known things, you

6 know. Don't make me ask for an exhumation in order to determine this,

7 because it's very important.

8 JUDGE LIU: How tall Cikota is is not established. We don't know

9 how tall Cikota is.

10 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] The witnesses we have questioned have

11 stated this. Unfortunately, we can't determine the issue if we don't

12 carry out an exhumation, so we have to rely on people who knew him.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sir, given that this person is

14 deceased, this is senseless.

15 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Very well. We'll continue.

17 You said a minute ago that after that point in time you never saw

18 Tuta again.

19 A. No.

20 Q. Nowhere?

21 A. Only on television.

22 Q. So you see that you did see him after all?

23 A. Yes, but I didn't see him in person after that date.

24 Q. How many times did you see him on television?

25 A. I don't know. Perhaps once or twice. I don't really watch TV. I

Page 16016

1 haven't got much free time.

2 Q. But there's an interesting detail here. You said, later on, while

3 he was in hospital in Zagreb, before he was transferred to The Hague, "I

4 saw him on television." How could you have seen him on television given

5 that he was in the hospital?

6 A. Well, they showed him in the hospital, and even before he went to

7 hospital, he appeared on television.

8 Q. But no. Here you quite clearly state that it was while he was in

9 hospital, and I'm claiming that Mr. Tuta was never shown on television

10 while he was in hospital.

11 A. Well, I don't know, but I did see him. There was something to do

12 with the hospital, or it was around the hospital, or while leaving the

13 hospital, but I did see him. That's the main point.

14 Q. Very well. Let's carry on.

15 Would you be so kind as to help us clarify a matter, help us see

16 what the truth is. You know when you were taken behind the house and tied

17 there --

18 A. Yes, behind the school.

19 Q. We have the first statement, we have your second statement, and we

20 have what you said at the hearing. Here you say: "They ordered me to get

21 up from the smoking house. They took me behind the school. They tied my

22 hands behind my back and they ordered me to lie down on my stomach."

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. There were some other friends there, but you say: "This is where

25 I saw --" and you name the person -- "Stipo Kopilas, Juko Groznica, Ivan

Page 16017

1 Kolak."

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. "But I don't know whether they beat them --" and you're referring

4 to the people you saw there, "-- because when I got there, no one was

5 beating them any more. Half an hour later, one soldier untied my hands

6 and ordered me to untie the hands of the others."

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Is that true?

9 A. Yes, that's true.

10 Q. So they weren't Tuta's people, Tuta's men. It's not correct what

11 you stated yesterday.

12 A. No. They were Tuta's people on the side, but there were people

13 from Posusje too. There were a lot of people I knew, people who visited

14 me at my home.

15 Q. But tell me: Who are Tuta's men?

16 A. Well, people like us.

17 Q. How do you know that they were Tuta's men? Did it say Tuta's men

18 or Tutici?

19 A. No. It said the "Convicts' Battalion," and then the other local

20 soldiers called them Tutici, or Tuta's men.

21 Q. But tell us: You didn't mention the Convicts' Battalion in the

22 first statement or in the statement that you gave to the investigators and

23 you didn't mention it at the hearing yesterday.

24 A. Well, no one asked me about this.

25 MR. STRINGER: Excuse me, Mr. President.

Page 16018

1 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

2 MR. STRINGER: I apologise. The translation indicates counsel

3 just said that -- put to the witness that he did not mention Convicts'

4 Battalion at the hearing yesterday, and I think again that's a bit of a

5 mischaracterisation of the evidence that's been put to the witness. I

6 think the witness quite clearly talked about a number of units, including

7 this one, in his testimony yesterday.

8 JUDGE LIU: Well, I think today the witness also said -- he said

9 that Convicts' Battalion and then the other local soldiers called him

10 Tutici, or Tuta's men. It's quite clear in the transcript.

11 Mr. Krsnik, could we stop here and continue after the break?

12 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours, but I'm still

13 claiming that the witness didn't mention the Convicts' Battalion

14 yesterday, and similarly, he hasn't mentioned it right up until now. My

15 colleague the Prosecutor is not right. And this is the first time he has

16 mentioned it in response to my question. Thank you. We can have a break

17 now.

18 JUDGE LIU: Well, anyway, we'll look into the transcript.

19 We will adjourn now until 11.30.

20 --- Recess taken at 11.01 a.m.

21 --- On resuming at 11.31 a.m.

22 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik. Please continue.

23 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

24 Q. Let us please continue. Witness, could you please tell me: At

25 what time of day exactly Mr. Ivan Rogic was reading this so-called

Page 16019

1 conviction, according to your statements?

2 THE INTERPRETER: May the witness's microphone please be turned

3 on.

4 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your microphone is not turned on.

5 Q. Would you please be so kind as to repeat your answer, because the

6 microphone wasn't on.

7 A. I didn't know exactly what time it was, but it may have been

8 between 3.00 and 5.00 in the afternoon.

9 Q. Would you please tell us: What time did the bus for Ljubuski

10 leave? What time of that day or night?

11 A. That was at dusk. It was in the evening, almost night.

12 Q. The reason I'm asking you this is the following: In your first

13 statement, the one you have in front of you, you mentioned that only

14 Mr. Rogic was there, and you claim he read out to you some sort of a

15 sentence.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Just before you got onto the bus. Now, what is the truth?

18 A. Can you please explain?

19 Q. Because in the second statement, you say that Rogic was there and

20 that he came with Tuta's deputy.

21 A. Yes, outside the school building, and there were other people

22 there. I don't know who exactly. But I was there for the whole day, and

23 I was maltreated, so I could hardly see the people around me.

24 Q. Well, that's what I'm putting to you. Is it the case that

25 Mr. Rogic read this out to you before you got onto the bus?

Page 16020

1 A. Yes, outside the school building. They had us lined up there and

2 he began reading it, but he didn't finish because he was interrupted by

3 someone, who told him, "Don't read this." And then they took us to Stipe

4 Pole's house. They put us onto the bus and took us to Doljani.

5 Q. But you see, you said just a while ago that it was about 3.00 or

6 4.00 in the afternoon and that you took the bus in the evening, at dusk,

7 you said.

8 A. Well, it was spring, you know, so night began to fall at a very

9 early hour. So after 4.00 it was already dark.

10 Q. Yes, but you see, in the statement you gave to the investigators

11 of this Tribunal, you claim, "Later on, after that sentence was read out,

12 the same night they put us onto the bus, which took us through Doljani and

13 through the woods towards Risovac, and at dawn we arrived in Ljubuski.

14 That was on the 18th of April." So was it on the 18th of April that you

15 arrived in Ljubuski?

16 A. Yes, in the morning.

17 Q. The morning of the 18th or the morning of the 19th?

18 A. Well, actually, we spent the night of the 17th and the whole day

19 of the 18th at the school building, and this happened on the morning of

20 the 19th.

21 Q. So this statement should be corrected. It shouldn't read the

22 18th, but rather the 19th. Well, anyway, let us go on.

23 In your first statement, it says, "Ivan Rogic," and then

24 immediately we were put onto the bus. And then you continue. You make

25 no reference whatsoever to people who were with you on the bus, that is,

Page 16021

1 no reference to anyone aside from HVO soldiers who were in the bus, and

2 you were supposed to report to them every 15 minutes, that is, to these

3 soldiers who were with you in the bus, and you never said a single word

4 about anyone maltreating you in the bus, or anyone else, for that matter.

5 A. No. No one maltreated me. And as for the others, there was Dzemo

6 sitting up front, and the people who were sitting next to Dzemo, they kept

7 beating them all the time.

8 Q. But I'm not asking you about Dzemo. I'm asking about you.

9 Because at the hearing, and here, you said something completely

10 different.

11 A. No. What I said is that all those who were sitting in the front

12 part of the bus were being beaten and maltreated, and I was sitting at the

13 back of the bus. And no one maltreated me, except I had to report every

14 15 minutes to declare my presence, that sort of thing. The bus would stop

15 over at every checkpoint, and they checked us at the door, and so on.

16 Q. Was there an HVO military police presence in Sovici?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Wasn't it the military police who took you on that bus?

19 A. I don't know who belonged to which unit, but I do clearly remember

20 a man named Robi, and there were other people with him, and there was a

21 jeep just ahead of the bus. It was dark, so we couldn't see really.

22 Q. Okay. But did you see the military police at any point in time?

23 A. I'm not sure whether they were members of the military police or

24 not.

25 Q. Speaking of this man named Robi, I would ask Your Honours to

Page 16022

1 please go into private session.

2 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we'll go to the private session, please.

3 [Private session]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [Open session]

24 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Can you please tell us: How did you surrender?

Page 16023

1 A. How did I surrender?

2 Q. Yes. Who told you to surrender?

3 A. Well, actually, I'm not sure how to explain this. We did not

4 really surrender, because, after all, the shooting and the explosions,

5 there was a lull for a while, as though nothing ever happened, and between

6 all those moments, two soldiers came up to us, soldiers from Posusje,

7 soldiers I had known from before --

8 Q. Please excuse my interruption. Do you know their names?

9 A. Yes, I do know their names, but I'm not willing to say their

10 names. I know both their first and last names. They used to come to see

11 us before, and we were friends, good friends. They came to us to have

12 coffee with us, and we had to make them coffee, and they had a laugh.

13 They said, "We're here now for you to hand over the weapons you have. All

14 those who are in possession of weapons should hand them over right now,

15 and nothing will happen to any of the people who do." Mr. Dzemo and Tuta

16 are negotiating at Sovicka Vrata, so if there are any such people, they

17 should come down to the school building, and when we arrive there. They

18 said not the school building. Stipe Pole's house.

19 Q. This is the third version of the events we're talking about, and

20 now I'll tell you about the first two, the ones you gave yesterday in your

21 statement to the investigators. You claimed the following:

22 "After a while, I got out of the house to see what was happening."

23 A. Well, yes. It was interesting. After all the shooting, not to

24 come out of the house to see what was happening would have been strange.

25 Q. "I then saw two HVO soldiers head towards the house." [redacted]

Page 16024

1 [redacted] I said yes. I asked them why they

2 were shooting, et cetera."

3 A. Well, yes. They weren't the ones who were shooting.

4 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Krsnik, this is a protected witness. We

5 will have the relevant part redacted. But be careful.

6 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] My apologies, but this would have

7 been difficult to avoid, for me, at least.

8 Q. We have to be careful. I was only reading, so I got carried away

9 slightly.

10 After that, you go on to state that one of them was abusing you

11 verbally and that politics was actually to blame for all of this. A very

12 bad word is used here. I don't want to say it. And then you go on to

13 say:

14 "I don't know what that Croat's name was. He was a soldier from

15 Posusje. He was wearing camouflage uniform with HVO insignia."

16 Today you said that you did know what his name was but that you

17 were not willing to say?

18 A. Yes, I don't want to say, and that's why before I said I didn't

19 want to say.

20 Q. But why didn't you tell the investigators this same thing?

21 However, in your first statement, you say the following:

22 "HVO soldiers --" and you don't specify which HVO soldiers. "I

23 surrendered to HVO soldiers on the 18th of April around 6.30 in the

24 afternoon, in the hamlet of Celici, together with my brothers," and so on

25 and so forth.

Page 16025

1 Now, however, during the hearing, you said -- I'll read the

2 precise line to you.

3 A. I think you're mistaken there a bit.

4 Q. Well, you're here to correct me, please. You say the following,

5 page 24, line 1 -- actually, starting from page 23, line 23, 24, 25. The

6 Prosecutor asked you the following question: "Who was the local commander

7 of the BH army in Sovici?" Your answer was "Dzemal Ovnovic." "Do you

8 know what he did at that time?" And then you say "He, Dzemal Ovnovic, in

9 person, informed the inhabitants of the village that they were supposed to

10 hand over their weapons. He promised that nothing would happen to us and

11 that he had personally negotiated this with Tuta."

12 Now, there are three different versions. Did this unidentified

13 soldier from Posusje tell you about Tuta and Ovnovic?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. So what you said at the hearing is not correct?

16 A. After five or ten minutes, maybe half an hour, within his arrival,

17 they went around the village with a megaphone and they were informing

18 people about this, but I had found out from the soldiers about this even

19 before that point.

20 Q. I see that my learned colleague is looking for this spot in the

21 transcript. It's line 23, 24, 25, page 24, line 1.

22 So it is true that the soldiers from Posusje told you about

23 negotiations, and not Dzemal Ovnovic?

24 A. Yes, that's correct.

25 Q. Very well. Could we please clarify something about the people you

Page 16026

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5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 16027

1 refer to as Tuta's men? What were they wearing? Because in the different

2 versions, the one you gave to the investigators and what you actually said

3 at the hearing, we established that you made no reference to them in your

4 first statement, aside from a very interesting detail that I will ask you

5 about later on. So can you please finally tell us: What were they

6 wearing, Tuta's men, to help you recognise them?

7 A. There were a lot of different soldiers there wearing different

8 uniforms.

9 Q. My apologies, but I'm asking you about Tuta's men. You remember

10 what you said at the hearing yesterday, that they were wearing different

11 clothes from anyone else there and that that was how you recognised them?

12 A. Yes. They were wearing black uniforms and there was another team

13 of men who were wearing different camouflage uniforms, and there were yet

14 other people wearing camouflage uniforms, olive-drab.

15 Q. I do accept all of this, but I'm asking about Tuta's men.

16 A. Tuta's men were mostly wearing black uniforms, and there were

17 other people there who --

18 Q. That suffices for the time being. I'm only asking you about

19 Tuta's men.

20 In your statement to the investigators, you say the following.

21 You speak about Tuta's men. This is page 4 of the Croatian version of the

22 statement. You say they were wearing camouflage uniforms, and some of

23 them were wearing black uniforms. Tuta himself was wearing a uniform that

24 was greener than the other uniforms. What do you mean by "greener"?

25 A. Well, it was different from the other uniforms.

Page 16028

1 Q. In what way exactly?

2 A. It was not quite the military uniform I was familiar with. It was

3 a bit -- a deeper shade of green. I'm not sure how to put this. It was a

4 camouflage uniform, but it was greener somehow. The shape of the uniform

5 was somewhat different from the other uniforms.

6 Q. Can you tell us what difference there was between the uniforms

7 worn by the HVO members?

8 A. No, not really. There were some differences, but it depends on

9 how you look at it.

10 Q. The BH army and the HVO wore almost the same uniforms. That's

11 what I'm putting to you. And now how can you tell which soldier belonged

12 to which unit?

13 A. Because they wore insignia on their shoulder straps, on their

14 pockets. It depends. Some had no insignia.

15 Q. And those wearing black uniforms, you are sure that those were

16 Tuta's men?

17 A. Yes, I'm sure. There must have been a lot of his men wearing

18 black uniforms. Not all of them, perhaps, but quite many.

19 Q. Did you ever talk to those people?

20 A. No. One just didn't talk to them, because they were beating

21 people.

22 Q. Was that your conclusion, that those were Tuta's men? How did you

23 know?

24 A. Well, I've told you already that I could tell because of the

25 insignia and everything.

Page 16029

1 Q. Very well. I accept everything you say, Witness. There's no need

2 to get upset. Let us try to calm the situation down a bit. There is no

3 need to get upset over this.

4 Those wearing camouflage uniforms, as you say in your statement to

5 the investigators, how could you tell that those were Tuta's men? Did you

6 talk to them, those people wearing camouflage uniforms?

7 A. I didn't really talk to them. I only talked to those people I

8 knew from Posusje, but to those other people, I had no contact with them.

9 Q. Those from Posusje, were they Tuta's men too?

10 A. No, not really, at least not the ones I knew.

11 Q. Why didn't you say so in your first statement? Because you

12 specify whom you knew and whom you didn't know, and you say the following

13 in your statement:

14 "I have read the statement. I hereby confirm with my own

15 signature that all my statements were recorded authentically. Should I

16 remember any further details, I am prepared to provide them."

17 In the period between 1996 and 2002, you made no further

18 statements, and apparently you've had no further recollections, and you

19 confirmed the authenticity of the statement with your signature. You

20 named every single soldier, and if you didn't know a soldier's name, you

21 said "unidentified soldiers." How can you explain this to me?

22 A. That's easy. Those who were beating me, I specified who they

23 were; and those others whose treatment was correct, I will never say their

24 first or last names.

25 Q. Thank you for that, but Tuta's men are apparently not among them,

Page 16030

1 because that's exactly what you said. And you did name the ones who had

2 beaten you, but no Tuta there, or Tuta's men. They're not included. It's

3 exactly what you've just said.

4 A. Well, actually, I didn't know any of his men by the name. I only

5 knew a neighbour who was with Tuta, but not the rest of them.

6 Q. Thank you for this too.

7 A. Thank you.

8 Q. You see, the reason I'm asking about this is because there is a

9 very interesting detail in your statement on page 2, your statement to the

10 AID, the one you have before you, because that's the statement I'm

11 referring to most of the time. In that statement, you seem to know who

12 Tuta's men were, but you did not put them in Sovici. It says:

13 "Those were members of Tuta's unit whom I knew by sight. They

14 were billeted in the barracks at Heliodrom."

15 You see that you knew back then, and you did refer to those

16 people, but you never put them in Sovici in any one of your sentences.

17 A. Well, those people who were in Sovici were the same people who

18 lived at Heliodrom. I saw them there many times.

19 Q. Wait a moment. You state very clearly here that you knew them by

20 sight because they were accommodated at Heliodrom. So you state very

21 clearly where you knew them from. But let us not delve any further into

22 this.

23 Let me ask you the following. Let us try to clarify a couple of

24 other issues. Could you please tell me why, who, and were you at all at

25 Risovac for military training, and what sort of training was it, if there

Page 16031

1 ever was one?

2 A. This training, yes, there were training sessions, but I didn't

3 know anything about that, because I had been summoned a day or two before

4 the Bajram, Muslim holiday. And I was angry that they were calling me at

5 that time. And it may have been some sort of a test to see how

6 confidential I was, but I always welcomed all those who were well-meaning

7 persons. But even though it was just before the Muslim holiday, I decided

8 to go, and when I arrived, I was given certain assignments, and several

9 soldiers were with me and we were supposed to put up a privy, a field

10 water closet. And then we were ordered to chop up some wood and load it

11 onto the truck in the morning to protect the command building somewhere in

12 Jablanica. In the morning, the truck was there and we loaded this onto

13 the truck.

14 Q. Excuse me. Was this what you refer to as "training," you using a

15 chainsaw to chop wood?

16 A. Well, that was my assignment, and we loaded this wood onto the

17 truck in the evening. And Stipo Kopilas and some other local commanders

18 arrived in the evening and they told me to get ready and go back home

19 because it was a holiday and that I should be at home and that I was no

20 longer supposed to come there. So I left. I invited people over to have

21 coffee at my place whenever they could. Goodbye, goodbye, we said.

22 Q. But you will surely agree with me that this was no military

23 training?

24 A. Well, this training I went to, and I never returned, there was

25 never any other training apart from this at any later stage.

Page 16032

1 Q. Tell me, please --

2 [Defence counsel confer]

3 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Witness, if I read through your first statement, if I follow it

5 correctly, you spent very little time in the school, almost no time at

6 all. How can you know what happened in the school if you weren't there,

7 or if you only spent very little time there?

8 A. Well, I was taken into the school and out of the school on several

9 occasions.

10 Q. Very well, but on the basis of your statement, the first one and

11 the second one too, it is very clear, it's quite possible to determine how

12 much time you spent in the school.

13 A. I don't know. Maybe no time at all.

14 Q. Because you state very clearly when you left the cellar, when you

15 were taken to the smoking house. You clearly state when they took you

16 behind the house and when you set off for Ljubuski too, of course. So I'm

17 asking you where you obtained all these details from, and especially a

18 detail that you haven't mentioned in any of your statements. And how is

19 it that you know that Tuta was even provided with an office? And I asked

20 you where the office -- where his office was, whether on the ground floor

21 or on the floor.

22 A. Well, if you had been in Sovici, you would have seen this. The

23 offices were on the floor, not on the ground floor.

24 Q. Witness, you say "on the floor." To the left and to the right

25 there were two big classrooms.

Page 16033

1 A. Yes, and two big offices.

2 Q. And how did you see that? Where were you? How is it possible for

3 you to see all of this?

4 A. Well, sir, I was there.

5 Q. Very well. Very well. Can you tell me the name of one person who

6 was questioned by Tuta?

7 A. Well, he questioned quite a few of them.

8 Q. Give me a name.

9 A. Is it really necessary to give you a name?

10 Q. Anyone you like.

11 A. I wouldn't like to mention anyone, but if I started mentioning

12 people, I'd have to mention quite a few names.

13 Q. You know why I'm asking you this? We've questioned quite a few

14 people who were in the school before you, you know. Just a minute. Just

15 a minute. I'll speak very slowly now for the sake of the interpretation

16 and for the sake of my learned colleague, the Prosecutor. None of the

17 witnesses said that they had seen Mr. Tuta in front of the school or in

18 the school?

19 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Stringer.

20 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

21 Q. What's your response to that?

22 MR. STRINGER: We disagree with that assertion, Mr. President.

23 It's not the evidence.

24 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Krsnik, you may rephrase your question.

25 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, that's why I said this

Page 16034

1 very slowly. I emphasised this because I knew what the reaction would be.

2 I'm only speaking about the school and what happened before the school.

3 Believe me, I know each statement by heart. I've spent two years here

4 already. I'm only speaking about the school and about the place in front

5 of the school. But nevertheless, we can continue.

6 Q. What will you say if I said that we heard testimony here, and I

7 can't mention any names, but I would like to tell you that all the

8 witnesses - and that's how I'll call them in order to protect them - none

9 of them claimed that Dzemo Ovnovic surrendered to Tuta or negotiated him.

10 A. You're not -- that's not true.

11 Q. That's not what I claim; that's what witnesses have claimed.

12 A. All those who claimed that were lying.

13 Q. But they were BH army members, you know.

14 A. Yes, I do.

15 Q. And they're all lying?

16 A. Yes. If anyone said that, said that he didn't go up there and

17 didn't negotiate with him, if anyone said that, that person is lying. And

18 if anyone said that he wasn't provided with a car to get away from

19 Jablanica and was then returned from Doljani, if anyone said that, that's

20 not true.

21 Q. Why was he given a car to go to Jablanica?

22 A. I don't know.

23 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Stringer.

24 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, I object to this form of

25 questioning, and would also direct the Trial Chamber to the testimony of

Page 16035

1 Witness Y on this point.

2 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Krsnik, when you quote the testimony of a

3 witness, please be very careful about that. You may proceed.

4 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours. I would just like

5 to say that we're talking about Witness Y, Witness Y must know the best.

6 He claimed the exact opposite.

7 Q. How did he get a car to go to Jablanica? Did the HVO give him

8 this car?

9 A. The local commander, Jure Groznica, gave it to him.

10 Q. Did they have some kind of an agreement?

11 A. Well, they were related. One of them was the best man. That was

12 the main thing.

13 Q. Sir, do you want to say that the BH army betrayed Dzemo Ovnovic?

14 A. I don't want to say anything, because we didn't fight for someone

15 to betray the army or the HVO. These are other matters, and little people

16 don't know anything about this. That's how things had to pass. We all

17 suffered. It doesn't matter who. People suffered on both sides.

18 Q. I agree with you, absolutely. Don't get angry, but I have to ask

19 you about certain things that have to do with Mr. Tuta. Please be patient

20 and assist me. I'm defending my client. You must understand this.

21 In the statement that you gave to the investigators, today you

22 told me that Rogic was interrupted by someone in his speech, that someone

23 interrupted him, and here you quite clearly stated who interrupted him.

24 It was this person called Cikota, who was a short person, a little fat,

25 with fair hair. But what is interesting in what you say is that "while

Page 16036

1 Rogic was speaking to us in the yard, I saw Tuta," et cetera. "They were

2 only 5 metres away from Rogic. So Tuta must have heard what Rogic was

3 saying." And that's all.

4 A. Not must have heard; he could have heard. You say that you are

5 defending Tuta. You really are right. But where were you in 1993, when

6 it was necessary to defend all of us, when Mr. Tuta came to beat us?

7 Q. Look, if I had been there in 1993, believe me, I would have

8 defended all of you.

9 A. Well, I can't talk about everything, sir, but I've lived through

10 all sorts of things.

11 Q. Well, I'm very sorry about that, you know.

12 A. I'm sorry too.

13 Q. But this is what I have just said, and I said this because I want

14 you to understand that the situation is different now and that I have to

15 insist on certain matters. But if I'm tiring you, I can stop. It's

16 really not a problem.

17 A. Well, very well. You've gone a bit too far, but it doesn't

18 matter. I'll carry on listening to you a bit.

19 Q. Well, I'm sorry. I didn't think I had gone too far, but I really

20 will try not to disturb you, not to tire you. I'm just reading out what

21 is stated here. I'm not inventing anything. And you signed both

22 statements, you read them through, and you signed them. That's why I'm

23 reading from them, so as to prevent you from misunderstanding certain

24 issues.

25 The document which the Prosecutor showed you at the end,

Page 16037

1 yesterday, naturally you said that you had never seen that document. But

2 when you came to The Hague, did the Prosecutor show it to you?

3 A. No. And to be more specific with regard to this document, the

4 first time I heard about some parts of this document, I heard it on the

5 local TV in Jablanica, from 1994, when I had left the camp. I heard

6 things being read out on the Jablanica TV. But I had never seen it

7 before.

8 Q. You mean the local TV station called Press Service of the 44th

9 Mountain Brigade?

10 A. I don't know what the name was exactly, what it was called

11 exactly. It was some kind of cable TV. It still exists today.

12 Q. Well, look, we've got a lot of cassettes from that TV, and it was

13 called the Press Service of the 44th Mountain Brigade, and it was part of

14 the BH army from Sovici. It's a local brigade, under the command of Enes

15 Kovacevic in Jablanica; isn't that correct?

16 A. Yes, that's correct.

17 Q. And that was read out on that TV station?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. But yesterday you said that you didn't know that man and that you

20 had never heard about that document.

21 A. No. I have heard about the document, but I said that I had never

22 had it in my hands before, but I heard about it when I left the camp,

23 maybe several months later. I don't know exactly when. But I didn't have

24 a TV and I didn't really go to other people's houses, but I just happened

25 to be somewhere when the news was on, and this was read out once or twice.

Page 16038

1 I don't exactly remember what was read out, and I wasn't really interested

2 in it then. And yesterday, what I read out -- I don't know. There was

3 just a part that I read at the beginning, two or three sentences that

4 concerned the training in Risovac, but I didn't read anything further.

5 Q. But you said in that notorious document, you said that you had had

6 problems, but now you say that you didn't have problems. So it's not

7 correct what is stated in there.

8 A. What do you mean exactly?

9 Q. Well, the Prosecutor said this yesterday. I can read it out to

10 you. I don't want to waste any time, but I can read out what it states.

11 When you were asked whether you had had any problems because you were a

12 member of the HVO, because you and your brother were in the HVO, you

13 replied that you had -- didn't have any problems.

14 A. What do you mean, "problems"?

15 Q. That you had problems with other Muslims, with your neighbours,

16 inhabitants of your village, because you were in the HVO.

17 A. No. It wasn't --

18 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Stringer.

19 MR. STRINGER: I object, Mr. President. The question is related

20 to whether, as indicated in the document, he had any problems in the HVO

21 because he had brothers who were members of the ABiH. That was the

22 question that was put to the witness, for which there's a basis in the

23 document itself, not the other way around.

24 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Krsnik --

25 MR. KRSNIK: Yes. Yes. Okay.

Page 16039

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Page 16040

1 JUDGE LIU: In the transcript we see that because you and your

2 brother were in the HVO. That's a totally different assertion.

3 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, but we've got the document

4 here, and this is what I said. If I have understood this correctly, in

5 the document it says that he had problems with his Muslims, that he and

6 his brother had problems with other Muslims because they were HVO members.

7 If I have made a mistake, please correct me.

8 A. Yes, you have made a mistake, sir, because up until then, I didn't

9 have any problems, up until the time when I was taken to the camp. Then I

10 had traumatic experiences in the camp, et cetera.

11 Q. But that's what I'm asking you about.

12 A. But up until the time when we were locked up, we didn't have any

13 problems. No one was bothered by the fact that we were there. And there

14 were other people there too. I wasn't the only one there. There were

15 other Muslims who were members of the HVO.

16 Q. And you didn't have any problems because your other brothers were

17 in the BH army?

18 A. No, I didn't.

19 Q. So what it states here is not correct; is that right? I have read

20 out what it says in the document. In the English version -- it's page 43

21 in the English version?

22 JUDGE CLARK: But, Mr. Krsnik, I think he said yesterday, if we're

23 talking about the same passage, when the passage was read out to him, he

24 said that he was unaware of these suspicions and feelings expressed in the

25 document. He was unaware when he was with the HVO that he was treated

Page 16041

1 with suspicion because he was a Muslim. That's what he said yesterday.

2 He can't answer for what the person's suspicions were, but he said

3 yesterday that at the time he was unaware that there was any bad feeling.

4 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Yes. Thank you, Judge Clark. He has

5 confirmed that. Not that he was aware of that, but it confirms the fact

6 that there were no problems. This is what he just said a minute ago.

7 Q. I'm looking at the statement that you gave to the investigators.

8 Is it correct when it says that after negotiations with Sefer Halilovic,

9 rather, when Sefer Halilovic came to negotiate with SFOR - this is on page

10 3 - is it true to say that it was agreed that civilians should be taken by

11 bus to Jablanica? Is that correct?

12 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Yes, Mr. Stringer.

13 MR. STRINGER: I object on two grounds, Mr. President. These are

14 events that occurred after the witness had been removed from Sovici. It's

15 therefore beyond the scope of his direct examination. Secondly, this is

16 an issue that falls beyond the scope, I think, of the Trial Chamber's

17 ruling on the purpose of this particular witness's rebuttal testimony.

18 [Trial Chamber confers]

19 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Stringer, you understand that this is a

20 cross-examination. The Defence counsel has the right to challenge the

21 credibility of this witness.

22 But, Mr. Krsnik, I thought you were touching upon the Rados diary

23 a moment ago, that you'd come back to that issue. Would you please tell

24 me how long are you going to last in your cross-examination? It has been

25 going on for quite a long time.

Page 16042

1 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have almost finished.

2 But when we're going through documents, or parts of this document

3 yesterday, I only went through what the witness said during the hearing,

4 we were looking for events that -- of which the witness might have

5 knowledge. For example, this refers to the last question. We then

6 realised -- or rather, we know that after he was questioned yesterday, and

7 we didn't know what the Prosecution's intentions were with regard to these

8 issues, we knew that he couldn't know anything in a direct way because

9 after the 18th there was nothing else, apart from the fact that he

10 belonged to the army and the training, et cetera, and we went through

11 these matters.

12 JUDGE LIU: You may try your luck in that direction, but I'm not

13 sure whether you can get the proper answer from this witness.

14 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I agree with you, Mr. President. I'm

15 looking at the questions and I think I'm approaching the end.

16 [Defence counsel confer]

17 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Having conferred with my colleagues,

18 I think we have covered all of the issues. We have touched on everything,

19 on all the relevant areas.

20 Thank you, Witness.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22 JUDGE CLARK: Mr. Krsnik, I hope you don't mind my saying this to

23 you. This witness was called as a rebuttal witness to deal with a very

24 specific and concrete issue in relation to your client. You know what

25 that issue is: His presence in Sovici on a particular date. Now, why

Page 16043

1 don't you put, or why haven't you put to this witness what your case is so

2 he can deal with it? Because it seems to me that it's fairer if it comes

3 from you than if it comes from the Prosecution or from me. This witness

4 is here to help the Court, and he may help your client. You won't get

5 another chance, so why don't you put your case to this man?

6 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, for a very simple

7 reason. There's nothing I want to hide from the witness. This is not a

8 strategy I'm employing. I never have had such intentions.

9 Your Honours, Judge Clark, when you read all these statements, it

10 was quite clear to me what was at stake, and I don't see why one should go

11 on. I did assert my thesis, but in an indirect manner. And what it says

12 in the first statement that he made in 1996, with regard to this, my claim

13 was quite clear. Had Tuta been there, he would have said so when his

14 memory was still fresh, and that was in 1996 because on page 2, Judge

15 Clark, and I'm going to suggest that this statement be tendered into

16 evidence in any case, on the second page it is quite clear that this is

17 the case, and especially after the description provided. Your Honours, we

18 know that Mr. Tuta is not one metre and 82 tall. So do I still have to

19 cast doubt on certain matters, if the witness says that he is a metre 82

20 tall, or even taller --

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, sir. I didn't -- I said I don't

22 know whether he's shorter or taller, but about a metre and 82. I don't

23 know whether he is taller or shorter than that.

24 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

25 Q. I'm sorry, but half an hour ago you said that Tuta was 1 metre and

Page 16044

1 82 centimetres tall, or even taller. We can check this in the transcript.

2 You are now correcting yourself again and providing us with a fifth

3 version. And Witness, please, could you look at me.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. I claim that Tuta and Cikota weren't in Sovici, for if they had

6 been there, you would have said so in the first statement, immediately

7 after the events.

8 A. Sir, were you in Sovici on that day when the attack against Sovici

9 was carried out? I was there, sir.

10 Q. Just a minute. I'm here to put the questions, and you're here to

11 answer. You know, let's not quarrel, you know. Because if you make a

12 claim 12 years after the event, and in particular, 6 years after the

13 event, and I'm claiming, and other people from your village gave testimony

14 here: If Tuta had been there, you would have said that a long time ago.

15 A. All right, sir. You're right. If you've finished --

16 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you. I have no further

17 questions.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19 JUDGE LIU: Any cross-examination, Mr. Seric?

20 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. I would just like

21 to change my place so that I'm not standing behind the witness's back.

22 Cross-examined by Mr. Seric:

23 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, my name is Branko Seric. I'm Defence

24 counsel for Mr. Vinko Martinovic.

25 Yesterday you stated that you were arrested on the 17th of April,

Page 16045

1 1993, that you were taken to Ljubuski on the 18th, and to the Heliodrom

2 one and a half months later. Could we agree that you got to the Heliodrom

3 at the beginning of June 1993?

4 A. Yes, more or less. I can't remember the exact date, but ...

5 Q. Mr. AF, are you a smoker?

6 A. A smoker, yes.

7 Q. Were you a smoker in 1993?

8 A. Yes, I was.

9 Q. When you arrived in front of the Heliodrom, and you spoke about

10 this in the testament that Mr. Krsnik has referred to already, you said

11 that you were lined up.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Could we agree that they took everything away from you and from

14 the others?

15 A. Yes, everything. Our cigarettes, lighters, everything that we had

16 on us, money too.

17 Q. Could we agree that you had to leave some of your clothes there

18 too?

19 A. Yes. Anyone who had additional clothes in a bag had to leave them

20 with the police, and they would then take them to a warehouse.

21 Q. Could you keep your -- were you able to keep your lighter?

22 A. No, not on that occasion.

23 Q. Do you remember when the International Red Cross visited the

24 Heliodrom?

25 A. No, I can't remember when that was exactly, but the visit took

Page 16046

1 place later on.

2 Q. Can you remember the month?

3 A. Well, no, I can't remember exactly, but the visit did take place.

4 Q. Yesterday, in response to a question from the Prosecution, you

5 said that on a certain day - you can't remember when - but it was in June

6 or August, you were taken to the Bulevar, next to the medical centre.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. However, in the statement that you gave in April 2002, you said

9 that it was in August. You were more specific than you were yesterday.

10 What's correct?

11 A. I can't remember the exact date. A lot of time has passed. But I

12 do know that it was in the summer.

13 Q. I'm not asking you about the date. What I'm asking you is: Was

14 it in July or in August? And you've already said that it was August in

15 your statement to the Prosecutor.

16 A. Well, yes, thereabouts. July or August. Was it late July or

17 early August, I'm not sure, but it was summer, and days were hot.

18 Q. Can you be more precise? If you put this in relation to the visit

19 by the International Red Cross, was that before or after the visit?

20 A. I can't remember.

21 Q. You said MP Luka Stojanovski drove you there.

22 A. Yes, that's correct.

23 Q. Can you please pause after my question for the benefit of the

24 interpreters and then begin your answer.

25 Are you familiar in which way the military police is related to

Page 16047

1 Vinko Martinovic at all?

2 A. No, I'm not familiar with that.

3 Q. If I put it to you that this man, Luka Stojanovski was never a

4 member of Vinko Martinovic's unit, what will you tell me in response?

5 A. I won't tell you anything. I never said he was a member of

6 Mr. Martinovic's unit. But he drove us everywhere whenever we went to do

7 force the labour. He drove us everywhere.

8 Q. In your statement to the Prosecutor dated April 2002, only six

9 months ago, you said that, first, you had been taken to the engineering

10 faculty. Is that correct?

11 A. Yes, that's quite correct. They would often take us there. They

12 would put us up there, and then soldiers would come and pick us up to take

13 us to forced labour.

14 Q. You also said that you -- that from the medical faculty you were

15 taken near the medical centre and close to the place where the new church

16 is, next to the kindergarten. Is that correct?

17 A. The new church is not exactly in the vicinity of the kindergarten.

18 Like I said, next to the medical centre there is a kindergarten indeed

19 nearby. And there is a church somewhere in the area, and there's a park

20 just above. And like I said before, there is a playground, sir.

21 Q. Yes, but please, just say "correct" or "not correct."

22 A. Correct.

23 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Could the usher please show the

24 witness photographs 14.5 and 14.4. This is 14.4.

25 Q. In this photograph, can you see the engineering faculty in this

Page 16048

1 photograph?

2 A. No, I can't.

3 Q. Can you point out in this photograph, please, the exact spot that

4 you were taken to from the engineering faculty, which you said was near

5 the medical centre?

6 A. Yes, I can. Should I point it out? Should I make a sign on the

7 photograph?

8 Q. Please use the pointer.

9 A. First we were taken to where these houses are, right here. That's

10 where they took us to.

11 Q. Can you please mark this with number 1.

12 A. [Marks]

13 Q. All right. Can you please point out the kindergarten.

14 A. It's right here. I'm not sure when this photograph was taken, but

15 it was just here.

16 Q. Please mark it with number 2, and mark the new church with number

17 3.

18 A. I can't see the church here in this photograph.

19 Q. Very well. Thank you. You said you knew that Vinko Martinovic's

20 soldiers were covering the Bulevar between the medical centre and the

21 memorial at Musala; is that correct?

22 A. Yes, that's correct. We worked in that area, and --

23 Q. Very well. Can you please show the area on this photograph?

24 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Stringer.

25 MR. STRINGER: I think the witness ought to be given an

Page 16049

1 opportunity to give a full answer to the questions. He's being cut off

2 repeatedly now.

3 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we believe so.

4 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, Your Honours, I'm

5 trying to conduct my cross-examination in a focused manner and to elicit

6 from the witness answers which are as accurate and concise as possible.

7 I'm not trying to lead the witness here. I'm just trying to get him to

8 point out certain points in this photograph.

9 Q. Therefore, can you please point out in this photograph the area

10 covered by Vinko Martinovic's soldiers. That's the area between the

11 medical centre and the memorial at Musala.

12 A. Yes, I can. I can mark it out for you, the area in which I

13 worked.

14 Q. I'm asking you just about that particular area, the area you spoke

15 about earlier. There's nothing else you need to circle here in the

16 photograph. Please circle the area between the medical centre and the

17 memorial at Musala. Get a felt pen and please circle it for me.

18 A. [Marks]

19 Q. Will you also mark the area into the depth too, please.

20 A. Well, I've only marked the front part, but I can circle the

21 complete area. If you want me to, I can also mark the trenches that I was

22 made to dig.

23 Q. Would you just, please, complete the circle.

24 A. [Marks]

25 Q. Thank you. So you claim that this was the zone of responsibility

Page 16050

1 of Vinko Martinovic's unit; is that correct?

2 A. Well, I don't know really. The person who was in charge knows.

3 But whenever we worked for Stela, they would bring us here, and then he

4 would distribute us to different sectors. But they should know who was in

5 charge of what.

6 Q. I'm asking you only about your own knowledge, what you have

7 personal knowledge of. The area you have just circled, was that the zone

8 of responsibility of Vinko Martinovic's unit; yes or no?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Thank you.

11 A. Thank you, too.

12 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] May the usher please show the witness

13 map 11.18.

14 Q. Witness AF, take some time, have a look at this map, and try to

15 get your bearings.

16 A. All right.

17 Q. In this new map, please mark the same area that you've just marked

18 off in that photograph. If you could just draw a circle around it again,

19 please.

20 A. I'm not sure if I can manage with this one, because this is a

21 different image and the lines drawn here are quite different.

22 Q. Are you able to or are you not able to? Please tell us. Can you

23 please use this map to draw a circle around the same zone that you have

24 just circled in the photograph, and show me the area controlled by Vinko

25 Martinovic's unit. If you can't, just say so, please.

Page 16051

1 A. No, I can't.

2 Q. Thank you.

3 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Could the usher please put the map

4 away for the time being, but we may need them again, so it would be a good

5 idea to keep them somewhere handy.

6 Q. You said yesterday that Luka Stojanovski took you to the

7 headquarters, Stela's headquarters, and not to the engineering faculty on

8 that particular day. Is that correct?

9 A. Yes. He would take us from the engineering faculty to wherever he

10 had to take us to. He would bring us out of the camp. They would have us

11 lined up. They would take us wherever, to Stela's place, or whatever

12 needed to be done.

13 Q. Do you know which unit was holding the area in which the

14 engineering faculty was at that time?

15 A. No, I don't know that.

16 Q. Yesterday you stated that Luka Stojanovski nearly always drove you

17 to Vinko Martinovic's headquarters. Can you please describe for us the

18 building where this headquarters was situated? How many floors did it

19 have?

20 A. I can't tell you exactly, but I know that Mr. Stela was in the

21 second floor. How many floors it had exactly, I couldn't tell. It seemed

22 more like a private house.

23 Q. Can you please tell this Court: How many floors did the building

24 have? If you can't, just say so, please.

25 A. I can't say for sure. Two floors, at least. It seemed more like

Page 16052

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Page 16053

1 a private house.

2 Q. What colour was the building?

3 A. I don't know.

4 Q. I'm putting it to you that you were never either in front of that

5 building or inside that building. Will you agree with me on that?

6 A. No, I won't. You are just simply not right, and I find it

7 impossible to agree with you.

8 Q. Why, then, are you not able to describe that building in detail,

9 and you claim that you were brought -- that you were taken just in front

10 of that building almost on a daily basis for a month or two?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. You did not answer my question.

13 A. What question? Can you please repeat it?

14 Q. Why are you not able to describe the building?

15 A. What exactly do you mean? Sir, you asked me about the colour of

16 the building. I can hardly remember the colour of my own building.

17 Q. All right. My apologies. I'll give up this line of questioning.

18 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Can the usher please bring back map

19 11.18 to show the witness. [In English] Mr. Usher, map 11.18.

20 Q. [Interpretation] Let us try again with this map, Witness F. Can

21 you show us on this map, show the Court, show all of us, the precise

22 location of this building which you cannot describe but you know exactly

23 where it is? So can you please point it out on this map.

24 A. Yes, sir, I can.

25 Q. Please do so.

Page 16054

1 A. Actually, Stela's building was here, and there was another one to

2 the left of the roundabout.

3 Q. Can you mark the first spot you've just shown with number 1.

4 A. [Marks]

5 Q. So we can agree that what you marked with number 1 is the location

6 of Vinko Martinovic's headquarters?

7 A. Yes, in this area.

8 Q. What's the other location you have indicated? Please mark it with

9 number 2.

10 A. [Marks]

11 Q. What can you tell us about this other location which you just

12 marked with number 2?

13 A. What am I supposed to show you now?

14 Q. What is it? What does this number 2 stand for?

15 A. The place I've marked as number 2, there was another headquarters,

16 not Stela's, but another one.

17 Q. Whose?

18 A. I don't know.

19 Q. Were you also taken to that location?

20 A. Yes, sir.

21 Q. Using the same map, can you please indicate to us and mark as

22 number 3 the precise location of the medical centre.

23 A. Which mark am I supposed to use?

24 Q. Number 3.

25 A. [Marks]

Page 16055

1 Q. Will you please mark as number 4 the elementary school building

2 that you've referred to, as well as the Kantarevac playground.

3 A. It's here, in this area.

4 Q. Would you please show us, and just put an "X" there, the garage in

5 which you said you spent some time.

6 A. I can't really show it to you on this map, because it's a very

7 small area in the map. It was on the same plateau.

8 Q. Was it adjacent to this green area which we can see in the map?

9 A. Well, yes, nearby.

10 Q. Do you know what this green area stands for?

11 A. No, I don't.

12 Q. So just above number 3 and number 4, you just marked the big green

13 area. You don't know what it stands for?

14 A. For me, it's just a green area.

15 Q. Very well. Thank you. What exactly were you doing in that

16 garage?

17 A. What we were doing in that garage? Nothing.

18 Q. Let us, please, return to Luka Stojanovski. Yesterday you claimed

19 that for a month or two you were brought -- you had been brought to the

20 medical centre almost on a daily basis. Is that correct?

21 A. Yes, that's correct.

22 Q. You said he was always the one to drive you there.

23 A. Yes, always. And whenever we saw him in front of the camp, we

24 knew immediately where we would be taken to.

25 Q. And if I put it to you that always, and without exception, he was

Page 16056

1 the one to drive people from the Heliodrom to the Light Assault

2 Brigade -- Battalion of the military police, but never took people to

3 Vinko Martinovic's unit, what will you say?

4 A. I don't know who he was working as a driver for, whether for the

5 military police or for Stela, but he was wearing military police insignia

6 on his shoulder strap. And every time he took us for work, he was taking

7 other persons too, and he would always be the one to come and pick us up.

8 And whenever he showed up with an all-terrain vehicle, we knew where we

9 would be taken to.

10 Q. Therefore, we can agree that you do not know who Luka Stojanovski

11 was working as a driver for?

12 A. I suppose whoever needed persons for work, and whenever he was on

13 duty.

14 Q. I'm putting it to you again that he only worked as a driver for

15 the 1st Light Assault Battalion of the military police but never for

16 Stela's units. What will you tell me then?

17 A. No. I think you're wrong.

18 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Can the usher please show the witness

19 Exhibit 566.2.

20 Q. Witness F, this is a list of inmates from the Heliodrom, with

21 records of how the inmates were released, who took them away, and where

22 to. So can you please open the page 01543659 [as interpreted]. You'll

23 find it in the lower right corner. Do you have it?

24 A. Can you please repeat the number?

25 Q. 01543659 [as interpreted]. 01534659. 01534659. Can you please

Page 16057

1 have a look at the following page also, last three numbers 660. What can

2 you read there at the beginning? Will you agree that it reads "1st Light

3 Assault Battalion of the military police"?

4 A. Yes, that's what I can see.

5 Q. Can you look at the other page now with 660 as the last three

6 numbers. Who is supposed to provide the security? Can we agree that the

7 name stated there is Luka Stojanovski?

8 A. Where exactly do you mean?

9 Q. On page 1543660 [as interpreted], just behind the name of the

10 person marked as number 60 in the right column.

11 A. Yes, I can see that.

12 Q. Can you please look at page 0543648 and 015434648

13 [as interpreted]. Do you agree that the heading is "1st Light Assault

14 Battalion of the military police"?

15 A. No. I only thing I can see here is the 1st Brigade.

16 Q. Yes, but look at the column to the right.

17 A. Yes, indeed. 1st Light Assault.

18 Q. Can you turn to the next page, please. The last three numbers are

19 650.

20 Q. In the column to the left, behind the name marked as number 80,

21 Luka Stojanovski. Is that what it says in the column to the left? That's

22 at the top of the page.

23 A. No, that's not what I can see.

24 Q. Are you looking at the page number 01543 -- 01534650? And then

25 number 80, you can see "taken away by Luka Stojanovski," the left column

Page 16058

1 at the top of the page.

2 A. Yes, indeed.

3 Q. Let us continue, please. Can you please turn to page number

4 01534612. Do you have it?

5 A. No. Can you please repeat the number?

6 Q. 01534612.

7 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik.

8 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can we just adjourn

9 now, please, because I have a feeling that my client isn't really feeling

10 too well, so maybe he should have his therapy now.

11 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Seric?

12 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] I agree, Mr. President. That's only

13 two minutes earlier, and I just want him to be able to last the afternoon

14 session.

15 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We'll resume at 2.30 this afternoon.

16 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.58 p.m.

17

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Page 16059

1 --- Upon commencing at 2.32 p.m.

2 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik. I noticed your client was not in the

3 room. Are we going to continue?

4 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] My client was really feeling bad. He

5 wasn't feeling well. So it would be better for him to be examined. This

6 is obviously too lengthy for him, and but we'll try to continue so as not

7 to disturb your schedule.

8 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much for your cooperation.

9 Mr. Seric, please continue with your cross-examination.

10 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. President.

11 Q. 566.2 is the document that is in front of the witness: Could you

12 have a look at page 01534612.

13 A. What should I have a look at?

14 Q. 01534612. In the left-hand column, can you see that it says "the

15 1st Light Assault Battalion of the military police," and at the bottom,

16 after the name under number 15 it says "security, Luka Stojanovski"? Can

17 you see that?

18 A. Yes, I can.

19 Q. If you turn the page now, 01535118. Can you see the date, the

20 31st of August, 1993? It's at the top of the left column. And also it

21 says "the 1st Light Assault Brigade of the military police." And to the

22 right, at the bottom, it says that "security was provided by Luka

23 Stojanovski."

24 A. Yes. Yes, I see that.

25 Q. And now could the Exhibit 661.1 be shown to the witness. 661.1.

Page 16060

1 No, that's not it. That is not the exhibit. This is also the list of --

2 or the booklet of prisoners from the Heliodrom. 661.1. I could provide

3 my copy.

4 But for the sake of brevity -- I have a whole series of identical

5 documents, so I will show the witness, in just one sentence, that in all

6 of them, it says that Luka Stojanovski - and I've already shown this to

7 the witness - that he only drove people from the Heliodrom for the 1st

8 Light Assault Brigade of the military police, and not for any other unit.

9 So I'm repeating this claim so that we don't have to go through all these

10 documents. Allow me to finish, please. I repeat my claim that Luka

11 Stojanovski only drove - and you yourself said that he was a military

12 policeman - he only drove prisoners from the Heliodrom for the 1st Light

13 Assault Battalion of the military police. He didn't drive for any other

14 unit.

15 Q. What is your response to this?

16 A. Yes, sir, you are right, but Luka drove us wherever it was

17 necessary to drive us. He would also drive us to Mr. Martinovic, and

18 anywhere else when he was on shift. It wasn't every day, but when he was

19 on shift, he would drive us, and he would drive us wherever it was

20 necessary, down to Buna, Blagaj as well. I can't remember all the places.

21 Up to Gubavica and elsewhere. He was the one who drove us, for the most

22 part, to these places. I didn't say that he was Stela's soldier, that he

23 drove for Stela, but he drove us where it was necessary. He drove people

24 where it was necessary. And I never said that Luka Stojanovski was Mr.

25 Martinovic's soldier. I said that he was a military policeman. I don't

Page 16061

1 know which brigade he belonged to. That didn't interest me. I only know

2 where he drove us and where we worked and where we moved.

3 Q. A short while ago you told us that Luka Stojanovski also took you

4 to the building that was Vinko Martinovic's base, and you tried to

5 describe this building to us. Is it correct to say that you said, just

6 before the break, that the office was on the second floor of that

7 building?

8 A. Yes. It was on the second floor. That is certain.

9 Q. Did you go to that office?

10 A. Yes. I personally went there, and I sat in Mr. Martinovic's

11 office.

12 Q. If I tell you that building only had one floor and that in the

13 premises, in the rooms on that first floor, there were detainees in those

14 rooms, what would you reply?

15 A. I don't know anything about that. I'm not familiar with that. I

16 don't know whether someone slept there or not.

17 Q. But I'm telling you that that building only had one floor, and

18 this has been confirmed by many witnesses.

19 A. Well, the building resembled a private house, in fact.

20 Q. You said that the office was on the second floor and that the

21 building even had several floors.

22 A. No. No. I said that the gentleman was on the second floor.

23 Whether there were any others, I don't know, but it did resemble a private

24 house. I was personally present in the office with that gentleman.

25 Q. Did you see any other prisoners when you were there? What was on

Page 16062

1 the first floor?

2 A. I don't know. I wasn't interested. I don't know that either.

3 Q. How many rooms were on the second floor?

4 A. I don't know.

5 Q. How big was that office?

6 A. Well, it wasn't very big.

7 Q. Could you describe it?

8 A. Well, I can't right now. I don't remember. But I was sitting in

9 that office with Mr. Martinovic. There was a young lady there, another

10 colleague with me, and she served us with coffee. We were also given some

11 cigarettes by Mr. Martinovic, and Mr. Martinovic even offered us some sort

12 of cake or biscuit; it's not important. He then ordered the young lady

13 who was with him to bring a sack of oranges or tangerines - I can't

14 remember - so I could take them to other detainees down there. I did

15 that. I took them to these people and they shared them out.

16 Q. Who else was with you?

17 A. I think Mr. Martinovic knows this man very well. If necessary, I

18 will provide you with the name. If not --

19 Q. Tell us.

20 A. Mr. Hasib Lulic was there.

21 Q. Do you remember when this was?

22 A. No, I can't remember the exact date, but it was sometime when we

23 arrived there, in the morning to work, we were taken down there and two

24 soldiers appeared to take charge of us, to take us to work in that street

25 in Liska Park. So he recognised this person, this man, and he asked him,

Page 16063

1 "What are you doing here?" I don't know what he replied. Apparently he

2 said he had surrendered himself, and he replied, "Given the woods in

3 Sovici, why did you surrender? Why didn't you flee?" He asked him to

4 come to his office. I was with that man, and I went out together with

5 him. As I said, we were sitting there together. We were offered

6 cigarettes and other things.

7 Q. Do you remember the surroundings of that building in which you say

8 Vinko Martinovic's units had their base?

9 A. I can't really remember the surroundings.

10 Q. How can you explain to this Trial Chamber the fact that you don't

11 remember anything, but you do remember the office on the second floor, and

12 there was no such second floor?

13 A. Sir, there was a second floor. It did exist. That's for sure.

14 Because I remember very well that I went up the stairs, and the first

15 floor doesn't have stairs, not according to any criteria.

16 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Stringer.

17 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, I'm a bit hesitant to object.

18 However, I do think it's necessary to suggest that the scope of this

19 cross-examination is really beyond again what was the specific issue that

20 the Trial Chamber authorised this rebuttal evidence. I would certainly

21 have enjoyed the opportunity to go into these issues on the direct

22 examination, because it's clear that the witness had very frequent contact

23 with the ATG Vinko Skrobo. We didn't do that on direct examination

24 because we felt ourselves bound by the parameters that the Trial Chamber

25 had given in respect of this witness's testimony. Obviously, there are

Page 16064

1 many -- a great number of many other relevant issues that he could have

2 given direct evidence on but did not. These are clearly issues of

3 relevance to the case that are being inquired into at this time by my

4 learned friend. I just wish to point out that they were not gone into in

5 any detail whatsoever on the direct exam because we felt that the Trial

6 Chamber's rebuttal decision prevented us from doing that. I'd just merely

7 mention that. I think obviously if the Trial Chamber wants to hear the

8 evidence, we have no objection. It may, however, necessitate some

9 re-direct on these issues which go beyond the issue of the burial that was

10 the subject of the direct examination. We're also getting, if I could be

11 candid, we're getting quite nervous over on this side about the time. We

12 have again other rebuttal witnesses. We've been given a limited amount of

13 time. We've lost a lot of time already, for a number of reasons, and that

14 is something also that is of increasing concern on the Prosecution bench.

15 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Seric, I think you are entitled to ask some

16 question to challenge the credibility of this witness, but the main issue

17 here is the burial of Mr. Harmandzic. I hope you could lead this witness

18 into that area as soon as possible, because we are only interested in this

19 very issue in the rebuttal proceedings.

20 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] I agree with you, absolutely,

21 Mr. President. However, this witness has never mentioned Nenad

22 Harmandzic, believe it or not. He has spoken about everything, about

23 the -- but he never mentioned this name. And I'm glad that I have the

24 opportunity to tell my colleagues, the Prosecutors, that I was in the same

25 position when cross-examining our witnesses as they were when they were

Page 16065

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Page 16066

1 cross-examining our witnesses. I'm glad to have been able to hear such an

2 objection, because I want to say that I'm using the same method, the same

3 style, that they employed when they were cross-examining our witness. We

4 also had examinations in chief, and they did not relate to the subject of

5 our cross-examination. They questioned witnesses about whatever they

6 wanted to in their cross-examination. And as I want to show this witness

7 that he is not at all definite when he speaks about where he was and what

8 he did, and when I want to show that he's hesitant and not trustworthy,

9 and when I prove this by using documents, et cetera, then I have the right

10 to do this.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You are not right.

12 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] I'm addressing the Trial Chamber.

13 You're just a witness here.

14 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, I'm not -- I don't speak the

15 language. I don't know the tenor of what was just said to the witness by

16 counsel, but it appears to me that counsel ought to address the witness

17 with respect, the respect that he's entitled to. He's made statements

18 about the witness and his views on the witness's credibility in the

19 presence of the witness, and I think the witness is entitled to respond

20 whether or not he's being directly addressed or not.

21 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Seric, just said addressing the Trial

22 Chamber: "You are just a witness here." I think the transcript, you

23 know, picked up these words.

24 But anyway, Mr. Seric, please move on. We have to finish this

25 witness today.

Page 16067

1 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] I think that we will finish with the

2 witness, but believe me, I want to take advantage -- I want to put all the

3 questions that I planned to put in the course of my cross-examination.

4 Q. Witness, if I tell you that we have documents in our possession

5 with regard to taking prisoners away from the Heliodrom to do -- to carry

6 out work and your name is mentioned in them too, but it never says that

7 you were taken to see Vinko Martinovic, what would you -- what would your

8 response be?

9 A. You are not right, sir. If I hadn't been taken away, taken there,

10 I wouldn't have been in his office with him.

11 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Could the usher please show Exhibit

12 P66.2 [As interpreted] again. I'm not sure. I think the witness might

13 have it in front of him.

14 Q. Now, Witness, could you have a look at page 01534600.

15 MR. STRINGER: Excuse me. What was the exhibit number again? I'm

16 having trouble locating this one.

17 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] 566.2. We referred to it just a

18 minute ago. The page number is 01534600.

19 Q. At the top of the right-hand column, it says "Engineers." Would

20 you agree with me?

21 A. Yes, I agree.

22 Q. Don't read this out aloud, but is your name, your first and last

23 name, under number 16?

24 A. Yes, it is.

25 Q. Have a look at page 01534608. 01534608. At the top of the

Page 16068

1 right-hand column, does it say "Logistics"?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Is your name, is your first and last name, under number 5? In the

4 right-hand column.

5 A. Yes. Yes.

6 Q. Very well. Have a look at page 01534622. Have you found it?

7 A. I can't find it.

8 Q. The last three numbers are 622. In the left-hand corner, does it

9 say "Logistics"? Would you agree with me?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Your first and last names are under number 3; do you agree with

12 that?

13 A. Yes, I do.

14 Q. Let's have a look at page 01534628.

15 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President --

16 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

17 MR. STRINGER: If it would speed things along, we'll agree that

18 the witness was taken out to work with these other units at the times

19 indicated in this logbook. We think the logbook is accurate, and if his

20 name appears as having been signed out to a particular unit on a

21 particular day, we agree to it; we don't challenge it.

22 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Seric, you know that this issue is not

23 disputed, so there's no need to point to every place to this witness.

24 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] I fully agree with you, Mr. President,

25 and with my colleague Mr. Stringer. However, my question derives from all

Page 16069

1 of this again. How is it that at no point in these documents which the

2 Prosecution provided us with, at no point does it mention that this

3 witness was taken to the Vinko Martinovic -- to Vinko Martinovic's unit?

4 Q. Can you explain this to us? Can you or can't you?

5 A. Who are you putting this question to?

6 Q. To you.

7 A. Well, you should say so. Sir, you have found several lists here,

8 and it doesn't say where we went exactly. I didn't say that we went out

9 every day. We went there every day. Sometimes we went to other places,

10 but on each occasion when we were taken to work, Mr. Stela or

11 Mr. Martinovic never appeared. So on this list of prisoners who went to

12 work, the person who came to collect them would always sign this list.

13 Q. Do you want to say that what you are claiming is correct but not

14 what it states, what these documents state?

15 A. What it says in the documents, some parts of that are correct, but

16 there are other parts which are not correct, because what I want to tell

17 you, sir, is that when Mr. Luka would drive us to work, he would sign for

18 us. When he would take us there and when he would take us back. But they

19 never put down where the people were going to work, but they would say

20 which battalion was delivering them and which battalion was taking them.

21 It never said that we worked for this battalion or that battalion.

22 Q. When I tell you that in these documents there is also a list of

23 prisoners who were taken to Vinko Martinovic's unit, what would your

24 response be to that? And they weren't taken to some other locations?

25 A. I won't say anything. There were such details too.

Page 16070

1 Q. Mr. AF, on several occasions you stated, both yesterday and today,

2 on several occasions you stated that you spent a month or two months

3 during which you were taken to Vinko Martinovic's unit almost every day.

4 And how can you explain that this does not appear anywhere in these

5 documents? But what does appear is that you were in the engineers, with

6 the engineers, in the logistics, in the 2nd Brigade, in the warehouse, in

7 the 3rd Battalion, in the airport, in the 1st Light Assault Battalion. It

8 says you were taken there, but it never states that you were taken to

9 Vinko Martinovic's unit. How can you explain this?

10 A. I can explain it quite easily. You may have excluded these

11 documents, and I would like to know where the documents are, where the

12 documents are that we signed when we left the camp. Why didn't you bring

13 those documents? I should see those documents too, where it says what

14 sort of punishment had been meted out to us and why we spent 11 months

15 there. But you have provided us with these documents that were compiled

16 by policemen.

17 Q. Witness, these documents were provided to the Defence by the

18 Prosecution. I don't have a single document on this case. Whatever we

19 have came from the Prosecution team, including those documents relating to

20 you. And nowhere in these documents do we find anything that you claim

21 should be there. So can you tell the Court what other documents do you

22 think should be there? Perhaps the Prosecution have these documents, but

23 they wouldn't give them to us.

24 A. I only know that every time we left the camp, there was a

25 decision, a typewritten decision, relating to every individual. We didn't

Page 16071

1 read it, but we each had to sign out on our way out, and the Red Cross

2 would wait for us there at the gate. Now, what I want to know is what

3 information exactly is given here? What did we sign? What punishment did

4 we have to serve time for, and all these things?

5 Q. Witness, please, if we are to locate you somewhere in these

6 documents, give us at least one single date that you were taken to Vinko

7 Martinovic's unit. So we'll look for you in the documents.

8 A. I can't remember the exact date.

9 Q. Thank you. Can we please now go back to document 566.2, page

10 01534672. You have it right before you, page 01534672.

11 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Stringer.

12 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, the date that the witness has now

13 been taken to is the 17th of September, 1993, this is an area that was

14 expressly not gone into on direct because it fell outside the scope of the

15 Trial Chamber's order on this witness testimony. It was expressly not

16 gone into, and I think it's unfair to allow this to be raised in the

17 cross-examination.

18 JUDGE LIU: Yes, but we don't have it as a document. Mr. Seric,

19 would you please inform us whether you are going to discuss what happened

20 on the 17th of September, 1993. I think we should be more concentrated on

21 the issue in the rebuttal proceedings rather than an overall examination

22 of this witness.

23 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is one of the

24 documents in which we find again the name of Luka Stojanovski. This

25 witness claims that military policeman Luka Stojanovski drove him and

Page 16072

1 other persons, and we'll see later that those persons are in this list

2 too, also to Vinko Martinovic. So it's interesting to look at this list

3 of soldiers who were taken away, who took them, and what was happening on

4 that day, and this all goes to prove the credibility of this witness.

5 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Stringer.

6 MR. STRINGER: Your Honour, it may be necessary to go into this

7 outside the presence of the witness. This witness has never said that he

8 was in the vicinity of the Bulevar, the health centre, on the 17th of

9 September, 1993. That's not what his witness statement says. I'd be more

10 than happy, on re-direct, but if we're going to open up the 17th of

11 September, it's going to significantly, substantially broaden the scope of

12 this witness's testimony, and it's going -- it relates significantly to

13 events that took place in an area that's outside the area of the health

14 centre. The Trial Chamber doesn't -- the Trial Chamber does have the

15 witness's statement in front of it from Mr. Krsnik's cross-examination.

16 We can go to page 16 and we can read about this witness's experience on

17 the 17th of September, but it's not related to events that this Trial

18 Chamber has heard evidence about in this case. It's about events that

19 occurred in another section of the front line.

20 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Seric, you know in the rebuttal proceedings

21 we have very limited subject. I've already mentioned that to you. I hope

22 you could concentrate your cross-examination on that very issue.

23 Yes, Mr. Krsnik.

24 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the statement given by

25 this witness to the investigators of this -- of the Prosecution, you don't

Page 16073

1 have the whole statement before you, merely three pages, because we used

2 it as reference. But yes, if you look through the whole statement, it

3 also speaks about these events. It's a very comprehensive statement,

4 quite lengthy.

5 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Krsnik, I understand that there is a very

6 comprehensive statement made by this witness before, but that's not the

7 subject-matter of this rebuttal proceeding. This Trial Chamber has

8 identified the four areas, including the area of burial of Mr. Harmandzic.

9 Mr. Seric has already pointed out that the witness, in the direct

10 examination, never mentioned the name of that person. I hope Mr. Seric

11 could ask some questions along this line so that the cross-examination of

12 the rebuttal proceedings could go smoothly.

13 Yes, Mr. Seric, you may move on.

14 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honour.

15 Q. In the statement we have just quoted, we've just referred to that

16 statement to our colleagues from the Prosecution, you said that military

17 policeman Luka Stojanovski took you to Santiceva Street near the Ero

18 Hotel, is that correct, on the very day marked on this document?

19 A. Yes, that's correct.

20 Q. You also said that during that operation, prisoners were given

21 uniforms and wooden rifles; is that correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. You also said that --

24 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Stringer.

25 MR. STRINGER: I apologise for this. It's just that I know the

Page 16074

1 name of the hotel that Mr. Seric has elicited testimony about. The name

2 of the hotel does not appear in the transcript, and I think that it

3 should, because it would -- it is a significant point.

4 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Seric. Would you please clarify that for us.

5 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] The witness confirmed that we were

6 both talking about the Ero Hotel.

7 Q. Furthermore, you said that the prisoners had escaped and that they

8 gave statements concerning that event and that you also heard this on the

9 radio; is that correct?

10 A. Yes, that's correct.

11 Q. Now we're going to discuss the burial of a body. You said

12 yesterday it was around 1.00. Is that correct?

13 A. Yes, that's correct.

14 Q. In the statement you gave to the Prosecution, you said you had

15 been brought to the medical centre between 10.00 and 11.00.

16 A. Yes, that's correct.

17 Q. Why did you take as long as two or three hours to reach the Liska

18 Park?

19 A. We were brought there from the Heliodrom just a little earlier,

20 and then we were taken directly to very near the medical centre, as far as

21 you could travel by car.

22 Q. At what point in time, and where exactly, did you see that body?

23 A. I didn't actually see the body. The body was brought up from the

24 street facing the medical centre.

25 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Can the usher please bring map number

Page 16075

1 11.18. The witness has already made marks on that map.

2 Q. On that same map, can you please show us your exact location at

3 that moment.

4 A. I'm sorry, sir, but on this map it's very difficult for me to mark

5 my exact location.

6 Q. You stated yesterday that the deceased person was wearing a summer

7 T-shirt, sort of whitish. What do you mean by whitish, or rather, white?

8 Was it white, was it multicoloured? What did it look like?

9 A. It was sort of rather white. There were bloodstains on it and

10 other stains, but it was sort of white.

11 Q. You also stated that on one leg he was wearing sports shoes. Are

12 we talking about tennis shoes?

13 A. Well, not exactly, but it was the sort of shoes you use for

14 sports.

15 Q. At that time, was there someone named Avdo Hebet with you?

16 A. No. That's the person who had brought the body there.

17 Q. What was this Avdo Hebet wearing?

18 A. I don't know right now.

19 Q. Do you remember what Ernest Takac was wearing on that particular

20 day?

21 A. He was wearing a military uniform, camouflage, olive-drab.

22 Q. Was it the summer or the winter uniform?

23 A. I didn't touch him to find out what his uniform was like.

24 Q. Can you please tell us what you were wearing on that particular

25 day?

Page 16076

1 A. I can't really remember.

2 Q. Very well. You said yesterday that the body had been wrapped up

3 in some sort of a blanket, neither blue nor black; is that correct?

4 A. Yes, that's correct.

5 Q. In the statement you gave to the Prosecution, you stated,

6 literally, the following:

7 "As far as I remember, Enes and Avdo did not carry the body

8 wrapped up in a blanket."

9 Now, can you comment on that, please.

10 A. Well, what can I tell you? At first there was no blanket. They

11 just carried the body without the blanket, as you said, and they were

12 carrying the body towards the junction there. And then they returned the

13 body in front of the medical centre. They wrapped the body up in a

14 blanket and brought the body to the hole that we had previously dug.

15 Q. Once they brought the body to the edge of the hole in the ground,

16 what did you do with the body? Who carried the body from there on?

17 A. Well, actually, we dug the hole and a soldier appeared, and he

18 told Enes that the body was not to be put into that hole because it would

19 be in the way. And then Enes asked, "So what are we going to do now?"

20 And he replied, "There are vacant holes in the Liska Park." And said that

21 the body should be taken up there. We carried the body, and it was quite

22 a heavy body, and we had to take the body between a fence and some sort of

23 a garage, and then across the fence into the park. And then he called two

24 other prisoners from the garage, and we carried the body up there. I

25 remember it was the first row, but I can't remember the number, because

Page 16077

1 there were nine rows, nine vacant rows. Because just several days

2 earlier, the camp inmates had been taken there, the nine rows of some

3 Serbs who were supposed to be exchanged in Stolac. So the holes remained

4 vacant, and we used one of them to lay the body into.

5 Q. You refer to a fence.

6 A. Yes, that's correct.

7 Q. That was the fence of the Kantarevac playground; is that correct?

8 A. No, that's not correct.

9 Q. So what fence was it?

10 A. It was the fence from the house adjacent to the park, leading all

11 the way to the park. It was an iron fence, an old iron fence, which we

12 later cut through in order to make a passage so we could pass between the

13 house and the garage.

14 Q. On the ELMO you have a map of the town, so can you please point it

15 out to us on the map?

16 A. No. I can hardly use this map for that.

17 Q. Very well. Thank you. You said that you had taken part in

18 burying a number of bodies in Miljkovici; is that correct?

19 A. Yes, that's correct.

20 Q. Can you please tell us when this happened?

21 A. That was after the operation on the 17th of September, so that was

22 the morning of the 18th.

23 Q. How long did the burial last?

24 A. For about an hour. And if you're willing to hear me out, I will

25 explain to you how we went about burying these bodies.

Page 16078

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Page 16079

1 Q. No, I don't think that's necessary.

2 A. Of course you don't find it necessary, because this concerns you

3 directly.

4 Q. How many people took part together with you in that burial?

5 A. I can't remember the exact number, but I think there must have

6 been about five or six people. They would pick us up from the camp in the

7 morning. I can't remember at what time exactly. And then we would arrive

8 there. A lorry would bring the bodies up there and we unloaded the bodies

9 and laid them into the hole, because the hole had been dug 20 days before

10 by a bulldozer, and the bulldozer stayed there in that cemetery for about

11 20 days.

12 Q. Witness, do you remember exactly what the dead bodies had on them,

13 what sort of clothing?

14 A. Both uniforms, but those people who had been wounded and who had

15 been taken to hospital were mostly wrapped up in blankets or naked.

16 Q. Did you know any of those people?

17 A. Yes, quite a number of them.

18 Q. Could you give us at least one first and last name of a man you

19 knew?

20 A. I'd rather not. There are documents testifying to that.

21 Q. Very well. Do you know - you referred to this garage in which you

22 spent some time - which unit was in charge of that garage?

23 A. Well, that garage was not far from the medical centre. It was

24 almost within the compound of the medical centre, in a manner of speaking,

25 just next to a doctor's house. I can't remember the name of that doctor,

Page 16080

1 that physician, but the garage was just next to his house, and maybe it

2 was part of the house. I'm not really sure who the garage belonged to.

3 Q. Do you know in whose area of responsibility the Liska Park was,

4 which unit?

5 A. I don't know which unit exactly, but every time we worked there,

6 all the time we spent there, and when Ernest was on duty, he was in

7 charge. Now, which unit he belonged to, whether to Stela's unit or not, I

8 couldn't say, but I claim a hundred per cent sure thing that he was

9 Stela's soldier.

10 Q. Do you know since when the Liska Park had been used as a cemetery?

11 A. Yes, I know that.

12 Q. Since when?

13 A. I'll explain it to you now. The Liska Park cemetery - I can't

14 remember the exact date right now, but when our people at Uborak were

15 massacred, the first burial was carried out in the Liska Park, then, and I

16 attended some of these burials, and that's when it became -- it started to

17 be used as a cemetery.

18 Q. Do you know that in this makeshift cemetery of the Liska Park, all

19 three ethnic groups - Muslims, Croats, and Serbs - were being buried?

20 A. Yes, I am familiar with that.

21 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, please, could we go

22 into private session now for a new set of questions?

23 JUDGE LIU: So long as these questions are related to the

24 subject-matter of the rebuttal proceedings. Yes, we'll go to the private

25 session, please.

Page 16081

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10 [Open session]

11 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Mr. AF, I think we're about to reach the end of our

13 cross-examination. You stated yesterday that on that same day you talked

14 about the deceased person and that you found out a number of -- that you

15 found out some things about the deceased person. However, in the

16 statement you gave to the Prosecution six months ago, you stated that

17 after three or four days you had a conversation about that body you buried

18 and that the whole period until that very day you were spending time at

19 the engineering faculty. Is that correct?

20 A. No, that's not correct.

21 Q. Are you aware of the fact that the engineering faculty and the

22 area surrounding the engineering faculty were controlled by the military

23 police?

24 A. Well, they were the most frequent presence there, so they stayed

25 there, and they must have controlled the area, I suppose.

Page 16084

1 Q. Can you please use this map, 11.18, and show us exactly where the

2 engineering faculty is.

3 A. No, I'm afraid I can't.

4 Q. Mr. AF, can we finally agree, the two of us, that you in no way

5 took part in the identification of the exhumed body?

6 A. No, not really. I wasn't there on the spot where they exhumed

7 him, but that day I was taken there, the police brought me there, and I

8 was supposed to explain. I even had it written down on a piece of paper.

9 It was a message from the Red Cross, giving the exact location, the row

10 and number of the grave, and I gave this to them.

11 Q. However, you did not take part in the identification process

12 itself; is that correct?

13 A. Yes, that's correct.

14 Q. You told my learned colleague Krsnik that you gave a statement to

15 the security service in Konjic; is that correct?

16 A. Yes, that's correct.

17 Q. The statement we have before us now, not a single mention of

18 Kantarevac or the burial at Kantarevac or the burial at the Liska Park.

19 You never for a moment to Ernest or to Stela. What can you say about

20 that?

21 A. Not much I can say about that. That's only a very brief portion

22 of a brief statement, and that's only an introduction to the main body of

23 the story. And as far as the full-length statement is concerned, I gave

24 it several months ago, and I'm always willing to give a statement if

25 that's what it takes.

Page 16085

1 Q. Mr. AF, if I tell you that Vinko Martinovic's unit only had the

2 demarcation line around the medical centre as their zone of

3 responsibility, what would your response be to that?

4 A. Well, I have no response to make. I don't know what was under

5 whose control. I don't know which parts of the line were under people's

6 control. All I know is where I worked, where I went from, and where I

7 went.

8 Q. Mr. AF, do you know what Mr. Vinko Martinovic's unit was called?

9 A. No, I don't. They called it Stela's, on the whole.

10 Q. If I tell you, Witness, if I tell you that the Kantarevac

11 playground in that zone, the primary school zone, was under the unit of

12 the 1st Light Assault Battalion, and Luka Stojanovski, the military

13 policeman, drove for them, what would your response be to that?

14 A. Well, nothing, but I know that we worked both the Stela and right

15 along the line that I have marked on the map for you.

16 Q. Mr. AF, do you know which units had part of the line to the right

17 and to the left of the medical centre under their control?

18 A. No, I don't. All I know is that it wasn't under the army's

19 control.

20 Q. Could we agree that Vinko Martinovic was not the commander of the

21 military police?

22 A. Well, no, he wasn't the commander of the military police. He was

23 the commander of another brigade, of some other brigade. I don't know

24 which one. But he wasn't the commander of the military police.

25 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Could the usher please show the

Page 16086

1 witness the following exhibits: P517 and Exhibit P521.

2 Q. Let's start with P517 first of all. Witness, if you need time to

3 read it, please take your time. And I want to do the following with these

4 exhibits: I know that you probably have never seen these documents

5 before, but today you marked a zone of responsibility in the photograph, a

6 zone of responsibility which was under Vinko Martinovic's unit, and this

7 is in direct contradiction -- this contradicts what is said in this

8 statement. In this statement it says which zone was under the

9 responsibility of particular units. It says who had the zone of the old

10 secondary school under its control. It says that the medical centre was

11 something completely different. So this document makes other allegations

12 which are contrary to what you said today. What would you reply to that?

13 A. Well, I have nothing to say. You made the document, you tailored

14 the document to your needs.

15 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] I think that the witness has replied

16 to everything I wanted to know, the witness doesn't need these documents.

17 Q. You said that you dug trenches near the medical centre my claim

18 is, and this is the claim of many other witnesses who testified in these

19 proceedings, my claim is that there were no such trenches.

20 A. Well, we didn't dig trenches, but interconnecting trenches, and we

21 would seal windows with sandbags and break down walls for security

22 purposes, and we did whatever else was necessary. We did quite a lot of

23 things.

24 Q. Mr. AF, did anyone from the Prosecution speak to you before you

25 came to testify here?

Page 16087

1 A. No, sir.

2 Q. No one spoke to you?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Today -- I apologise. Today you said that you had watched some

5 sort of news reports on the TV, and I claim that you listened to reports

6 from this trial on the TV news and that that is where you heard that

7 certain trenches were being dug and walls were being broken down.

8 A. No, you're not right.

9 Q. You read about that in papers, in the newspapers, didn't you?

10 A. No. You're lying.

11 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, could we go into

12 private session, please?

13 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we'll go to the private session, please.

14 [Private session]

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Page 16088

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6 [Open session]

7 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, counsel, please.

8 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] I have finished with my

9 cross-examination.

10 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

11 Any re-examination, Mr. Stringer? Yes. Thank you, Mr. President.

12 Just to keep things organised, it may be best to remove these

13 documents from the ELMO, because I want to go directly to one of the

14 photographs, Exhibit 14.4. I think I see it there on the desk. 14.4.

15 The one that the witness marked on during this cross-examination.

16 Re-examined by Mr. Stringer:

17 Q. Now, Witness, this is the photograph that you looked at during

18 your cross-examination, and you marked this area as being the area that

19 you thought fell within the area of responsibility of Vinko Martinovic; is

20 that correct?

21 A. That's correct, yes.

22 Q. Now, I want to ask you -- I want to ask you some questions about

23 the period of time before the burial that you talked about, the period of

24 time in between your arrival at the Heliodrom in early June and the burial

25 of the body.

Page 16089

1 During that period of time, how often, how frequently, did you go

2 to work for Mr. Martinovic, Stela's unit?

3 A. Well, quite often. I don't know the exact number of times, but

4 quite often.

5 Q. Are you able to say approximately how many days during the week

6 you went there?

7 A. Well, at least three to four times a week, three to four days a

8 week.

9 Q. So would it be fair to say that during the period June and July

10 you were at Mr. Martinovic's area during -- or approximately three to four

11 days a week?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. What about later, during the later periods of your detention at

14 the Heliodrom, say September of 1993? Did you go frequently to his area

15 or did you go to other areas as well?

16 A. We went to other areas as well around the town of -- in the

17 surroundings of Mostar. We went to the Hum hill, the Brkanova hill quite

18 often, to the Kozica Mountain, to the area of Blagaj, Laksevine, Kovacina,

19 et cetera. I won't carry on.

20 Q. During the period of June and July when you were going to this

21 area, how often did you encounter Ernest?

22 A. We would meet when they were on shift, maybe twice a week. The

23 shifts would always change, so they would come and go.

24 Q. How many times during this period of June and July were you

25 present at the place that you've identified or marked as being the

Page 16090

1 headquarters of Stela?

2 A. Well, I don't know exactly, but we spent maybe two months in that

3 area, not just near the medical centre, but at the entire plateau, the

4 Kantarevac playground. We dug up everything to make interconnecting

5 trenches, et cetera. We broke through the asphalt, et cetera.

6 Q. On Exhibit 11.18, which is the map, you made some markings, and I

7 wanted to ask you about one of those. Witness, if I recall correctly, you

8 marked the number 1 at the -- what you believe is the location, or

9 approximate location, of Stela's headquarters. Is that correct?

10 A. That's correct, yes.

11 Q. Then you marked a number 2 at the location of a different

12 headquarters.

13 A. Yes, that's right.

14 Q. Do you recall the name of the unit that had its headquarters at

15 the area marked number 2?

16 A. No, I don't recall the name, but they were there. We were also

17 taken there on several occasions, to the base, and we worked there along

18 the line. I don't know who they belonged to.

19 Q. Do you recall the commander or any of the commanders of that other

20 unit, the names?

21 A. No, I don't. I don't.

22 Q. I'm curious as to why you felt the need to identify that other

23 location. Did that other unit have any connection to the Vinko Skrobo,

24 Stela's unit, as far as you could tell?

25 A. Well, I don't really know anything about it, but I do know that

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Page 16092

1 when we were taken to work, we were taken down towards Kantarevac

2 immediately. And when they returned us, when we went back, we went back

3 via number 2 on several occasions. That's where the command was.

4 Q. You testified in your cross-examination that at one period you cut

5 a passage through the iron gate or the iron fence at Liska Park in order

6 to connect the house to the garage. Do you recall that?

7 A. Yes, I do.

8 Q. What house were you connecting? What's the house and what's the

9 garage that you were trying to connect?

10 A. We tried to break through the fence, the fence separating the

11 house and the garage, which bordered with Liska Park, and the army would

12 pass through Liska Park. They would go to their positions through the

13 park, because it was safe.

14 Q. I'm asking if you can identify the house. Which house are you

15 referring to?

16 A. The house was within the grounds of the medical centre. It was

17 just across the road from the medical centre. It was on the grounds of

18 the medical centre,. The house belonged to a doctor. I don't know the

19 doctor's name. But it was on the grounds of the medical centre.

20 Q. And then you were connecting that to a garage. Can you give us

21 more information? What garage are you referring to?

22 A. The garage was fully built. It was a small garage for a car.

23 Q. Is this the garage that you and the others were held in by Ernest

24 on the day that you buried the body?

25 A. Yes.

Page 16093

1 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, I want to show the witness the

2 logbook, actually, a couple of them. I've got them assembled in this

3 single binder. It might go faster if I just put the binder in front of

4 the witness. Yes. This would be, in particular, Exhibit 566.2, which is

5 the logbook that my learned friend used during his cross-examination. I

6 need the whole logbook, not just excerpts. We can use mine. 566.2.

7 That's not it.

8 Q. Witness, this is the logbook that you saw parts of during your

9 cross-examination. I want to just take you to a couple of parts of that

10 that you were shown already before. Before I do that, I should give you

11 the complete logbook. This is the last part of it. It goes at the

12 bottom, just underneath.

13 Witness, you were taken to several entries, and if I can just

14 direct you to a couple of those.

15 MR. STRINGER: Actually, Mr. Usher, if you could assist. Just to

16 put the first section on top of the second section so that it's complete,

17 and it won't get mixed up. That's fine. Thank you.

18 Q. Witness, can you turn to the page that ends with the numbers 4600.

19 MR. STRINGER: Could I ask the registrar's assistance? Perhaps I

20 could use her copy, because I've given mine to the witness. Thank you.

21 Q. Witness, this is one of the entries that you were directed to and

22 which you saw that your name appearing. I wonder: Are you able to look

23 at that entry and tell us the date on which you were signed out to that

24 particular unit? Does it appear at the top of the page?

25 A. Yes, I can see it.

Page 16094

1 Q. What is the date there?

2 A. 3rd of September.

3 Q. Okay. That's the 3rd of September. Then turning again to the

4 page that ends with the numbers 4608, can you find that one? You have

5 4608. Do you see your name on that page as number 5 under the logistics

6 unit?

7 A. Yes, I can see it.

8 Q. And then just underneath, what's the date that you were signed out

9 to the logistics unit?

10 A. I can't remember the date.

11 Q. Do you see the date appearing above the number 1, the first

12 prisoner?

13 A. The 4th of September, 1993.

14 Q. And then finally, to the page ending 4622. Witness, you were also

15 identified on this page as having been taken out by the logistics unit,

16 and just to speed things along, does this appear to be on the 7th of

17 September, 1993?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Were you shown any entries from logbooks for the period of June

20 and July 1993? Have you seen any of those?

21 A. No, I haven't.

22 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, I'm not going to finish today, I

23 regret, so I --

24 JUDGE LIU: Well, if not so, we'll stop here at this moment, and I

25 think the interpreters and the typist has been working for a long time.

Page 16095

1 Yes, Mr. Krsnik.

2 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I was just waiting to

3 take advantage of this opportunity to ask you whether you would ask the

4 Prosecutor TO certain matters. Do they have the statement that this

5 witness made in 1994, in Mostar or in Jablanica? Because in my

6 experience, many statements were not in our possession when we had to

7 cross-examine a witness, and we would receive them later. But I won't go

8 into this now. But what I'm interested in now is whether they have the

9 statement that this witness made in 1994. The witness said himself that

10 he made two statements. And if they find them, could they provide the

11 Defence with it very quickly? Because we would like to cross-examine on

12 the basis of that statement. That's all I want to say for the moment, and

13 I don't want to waste any more time, because there are many other things

14 that I would like to discuss, but I will do so tomorrow, or perhaps put it

15 in writing, whatever will be more expeditious.

16 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Stringer, I give you one minute for your response.

17 MR. STRINGER: We've disclosed everything we have, Mr. President.

18 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

19 Well, Witness, I'm afraid we have to keep you here in The Hague

20 for another day. Just remember what I told you yesterday, that do not

21 talk to anybody about your testimony and do not let anybody talk to you

22 about it. You understand that?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

24 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 16096

1 JUDGE LIU: We will have the ex parte hearing at 4.30 in the same

2 courtroom.

3 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.00 p.m.,

4 to be followed by an Ex Parte Hearing.

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