Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 693

1 Thursday, 14 October 2004

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.08 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: So, good morning. Mr. Siller, could you call the

6 case, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: The Prosecutor versus Naser Oric, Case Number

8 IT-03-68-T.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Mr. Oric, good morning to you. And the

10 usual question, can you follow the proceedings in a language that you can

11 understand? Could someone check the number, whether he has --

12 Can you follow the proceedings in a language that you can

13 understand?

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honour, gentlemen, good

15 morning. Yes, I can follow the interpretation, everything the

16 interpreters are interpreting to me.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you. You may sit down.

18 Appearances for the Prosecution.

19 MR. WUBBEN: Good morning, Your Honours. My name is Jan Wubben,

20 lead counsel for the Prosecution, together with Ms. Patricia Sellers and

21 Ms. Donnica Henry-Frijlink, our case manager.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, and good morning to you and your team.

23 Appearances for Mr. Oric.

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. I'm

25 Vasija Vidovic. Together with Mr. John Jones, I appear for Mr. Naser

Page 694

1 Oric. Together with us are Ms. Jasmina Cosic, legal assistant, and our

2 case manager, Mr. Geoff Roberts.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Madam Vidovic, and good morning to you

4 and your team, too.

5 So let's go into private session for a while so that we deal with

6 preliminary -- first of all, before we go into private session, do you

7 have any preliminary issues that you yourselves would like to raise?

8 Yes, Mr. Wubben.

9 MR. WUBBEN: No, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Jones or Madam Vidovic?

11 MR. JONES: Yes, just one matter. We did receive an email from

12 the Prosecution yesterday with a list of exhibits, description -- a list

13 of exhibits.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Mm-hmm.

15 MR. JONES: We replied. Perhaps you've seen our response.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: No, I haven't seen your response. I have a copy of

17 the email that was sent. It wasn't sent to me, obviously, but it was

18 sent to my staff -- I see. Here, I have it now.

19 MR. JONES: Just to clarify my understanding, the Prosecution

20 aren't intending to introduce those exhibits today.

21 MS. SELLERS: Yes, that is correct. We informed both the

22 Registrar and we informed the Defence of that earlier today, and they

23 expressed absolutely no opposition. We would like to inform the Trial

24 Chamber that those exhibits might be used with other witnesses who come

25 from this village. Thank you.

Page 695

1 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. This is something you need to sort

2 amongst yourselves. I would imagine that with the computerised systems

3 that are in place today and which I know that both the Prosecution and

4 Defence adopt here, use, I mean, you can supposedly easily trace a

5 document once you are given the ERN number. I don't know. I mean,

6 correct me if I am wrong.

7 Let's go into private session for a while, please.

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6 [Open session]

7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are in open session.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: So what's going to happen, as I explained to you

9 earlier, you are now going to give evidence. The evidence is being given

10 under the solemn declaration that you entered earlier. The procedure is

11 as follows: You will first be asked a set of questions by -- who will be

12 leading, by Mr. Wubben?

13 MR. WUBBEN: Ms. Patricia Sellers.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: But Ms. Sellers, who I suppose you have already

15 met. When she finishes with her questions, you will be asked a series of

16 questions by Mr. Jones, who is appearing together with Madam Vidovic for

17 the accused, Naser Oric.

18 Ms. Sellers.

19 MS. SELLERS: Thank you, Your Honours.

20 WITNESS: DRAGAN DJURIC

21 [Witness answered through interpreter]

22 Examined by Ms. Sellers:

23 Q. I would like to say good morning to the witness, first. And for

24 the record, would you please tell the Trial Chamber your name.

25 A. Good morning. My name is Dragan Djuric. I was born on the 12th

Page 708

1 of September 1963 in Jezestica.

2 Q. Could I ask the witness, how old were you in 1992?

3 A. 29.

4 Q. And where did you live in 1992?

5 A. In my village of Jezestica.

6 Q. Would you tell the Trial Chamber in which municipality Jezestica

7 is located?

8 A. The village of Jezestica is in the Bratunac Municipality. It's

9 about 9 to 10 kilometres from Bratunac. And it's in the Kravica local

10 commune. That's the commune that the village is a part of.

11 Q. Were you married in 1992?

12 A. Yes, I was. I got married in 1991.

13 Q. And did your wife live in the village with you?

14 A. Up to a certain time, she did. But then she was pregnant, and

15 she was going to give birth. She gave birth in September. So she wasn't

16 in the village throughout the whole period.

17 Q. And did your parents live in Jezestica in 1992?

18 A. Yes, yes. They were in their house.

19 Q. Would you please tell the Trial Chamber, even though we have

20 mentioned it, what is your ethnic background?

21 A. There were only Serbs in our village, so I'm a Serb by ethnicity.

22 Q. About how many people were living in your village in 1992?

23 A. I didn't know exactly what the number was, but I think there were

24 about 400 to 450 people. There were about a hundred houses in the

25 village, and there were about four or five people in each house. For

Page 709

1 example, in my house, there were five of us children and our parents. So

2 seven.

3 Q. And the houses in your village, were they arranged on a hill and

4 by a main highway?

5 A. Our village is quite large, so there were houses on the hills and

6 also in the valley along the main road that passes towards Bratunac,

7 Konjevic Polje, Kravica, Zvornik, Sarajevo. So there were houses along

8 that road.

9 Q. And did you live in a house on the hill?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. In addition to your house, were there any other buildings that

12 belonged to you near your house?

13 A. We had barns and other buildings that were a part of our

14 property. For example, buildings where we held our grain, our

15 agricultural machinery. Yes, we did have some additional buildings, the

16 old house and so on.

17 Q. Did you have any farm animals near your house on the hill?

18 A. Yes, we did. We had cows. They were out in the field.

19 Naturally, these were all a part of village life. We had goats. We had

20 cows. Chickens. Domestic animals that any householder would have, any

21 person who owned land for his own needs.

22 Q. In the spring of 1992, let's say between March and June of that

23 year, do you recall if there were any tensions in your village or the

24 surrounding villages?

25 A. I don't really remember if there were any tensions in that

Page 710

1 particular period.

2 Q. Did any people that lived in your village or the surrounding

3 villages, did any decide to leave because of any tensions that they might

4 have felt?

5 A. Next to our village, there were other hamlets, for example Bukova

6 Glava and Dubova, these two villages. And I know that people from there

7 had to leave their villages. They came to our village, as well. Some of

8 them if they had family or relatives in our village came to ask for

9 shelter there, or they continued farther away to go and stay with close

10 friends or families. But they did have to leave their own homes.

11 Q. The people that you're speaking about who left their homes and

12 came through your village, would you please tell me whether they were

13 Bosnian Serbs or Bosnian Muslims.

14 A. They were Bosnian Serbs from those two villages, as far as I

15 know.

16 Q. Did there come a moment in the spring of 1992 when your village

17 formed a village guard?

18 A. People had left their homes. They came, and they were telling us

19 about what the situation was, and people had to be careful that the same

20 thing, perhaps, would happen to us and that one day we would have to

21 leave our homes just as they had to.

22 Q. And did you form a village guard in your village, sir?

23 A. I did not, but probably there was some kind of guard.

24 Q. Do you know whether this village guard wore uniforms?

25 A. Some people had uniforms from the reserves, and others did not.

Page 711

1 Q. Do you know whether the village guard was armed? Did they carry

2 weapons or rifles?

3 A. They did. Some had hunting rifles, some had pistols. So...

4 Yes, they did have some weapons. Some people did.

5 Q. In August of 1992, was the village of Jezestica attacked?

6 A. In August, on the 8th of August, the village of Jezestica was

7 attacked. And --

8 Q. Was the 8th of August -- pardon me. Was the 8th of August a

9 holiday?

10 A. The 8th of August was some kind of a holiday for us. It was

11 marked in red in our calendar. It was some kind of holiday, for us,

12 Serbs.

13 Q. Because it was a holiday, did people stay home, or did people go

14 to work on that day?

15 A. Well, you know how it is, perhaps out -- in the different

16 companies, the businesses were not working. But those who were

17 cultivating the land did continue to work. Those people who were farther

18 away from the centre of the village were able to cultivate their land,

19 and those who were closer to the woods were not really able to do that.

20 So it depended from person to person; some people did work on their land

21 and others did not.

22 Q. You testified that the village was attacked on that day. Could

23 you please tell the Trial Chamber at what time during the day the village

24 was attacked.

25 A. The village was attacked at about 11.30 that day.

Page 712

1 Q. Who attacked the village?

2 A. It was attacked by Muslims, our neighbours from the neighbouring

3 villages that bordered on our village.

4 Q. Were the Muslims from these neighbouring villages, were they

5 wearing uniforms?

6 A. I did see some people in uniforms. They were wearing some kind

7 of uniform, from what I could see.

8 Q. And the people who attacked, were they men or were they women?

9 A. You mean the people who were attacked? I didn't understand your

10 question.

11 Q. The people who were attacking your village. Excuse me.

12 A. Those who were attacking, they were men. They were armed men who

13 were shooting in our village. They were shooting at the houses in the

14 village. Our house was also hit. A shell fell near the house. There

15 was the old house and the new house, and the electricity cable connected

16 the old house and the new house. And this was hit by some kind of

17 projectile, and it hit the cable. It did not hit the house directly.

18 And it exploded.

19 Q. What direction were the uniformed men coming from as they

20 attacked your village?

21 A. There are woods around our village, and they could come in from

22 different directions to get into our village. They could have come from

23 Jaglici, from their villages. But since our village is divided in two

24 parts, they came from different directions, from Jaglici, Cizmici, and

25 they attacked Djermani, Jezestica, Trisici, Rankovici, all these hamlets

Page 713

1 belonging to Jezestica. And there was also one hamlet that was on the

2 other side. They were these hamlets that were on the hills all belonging

3 to the village of Jezestica.

4 Q. Now, where were you standing when you first saw this group of

5 armed men coming into your village?

6 A. We were near our house. We heard shooting, and we then could see

7 people approaching the houses from several sides, because the position of

8 our village is such that it's on hilly terrain. So they were coming from

9 several directions into the village and coming to the houses.

10 Q. Were you in your house on the hill at that time?

11 A. Yes, I was there then.

12 Q. And then did you ever leave your house during the attack?

13 A. I had to leave the house. We fled from that village. We went

14 through the village and fled from the village and hid behind the hill

15 where there was less danger. So whoever managed to get away from the

16 village did. And of course, there are more people living in the valley

17 than up on the hill.

18 Q. As you were fleeing at that point, did you hear the attackers say

19 anything?

20 A. Well, we did. They were clamouring, they were shouting, they

21 were cursing our Serbs mothers. They were saying "Go to Serbia."

22 Q. Did you see these attackers, the uniformed men, did you see them

23 doing anything as you were fleeing?

24 A. They were about 300 metres away. So we had to flee. We had to

25 run away. As they entered the village, we saw that houses were on fire

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Page 715

1 and that they were shooting in the villages. People who were in the

2 village had to run for their lives, as you would say. And they were

3 trying to get as far away as possible. Whoever was in the village did

4 not survive.

5 Q. Did you see the village guard fighting the soldiers in the

6 camouflage uniforms?

7 A. From where I was, I could not see that. From where I was.

8 Q. Now, how long did the attack last?

9 A. How long? Well, a while. Perhaps two hours, an hour and a half.

10 The houses were on fire. They were burning. The people who managed to

11 get out did, and those who stayed behind were killed.

12 Q. Now, you said you were fleeing. Did you flee from the hills to

13 the bottom part of Jezestica?

14 A. Oh, yes. We were fleeing from our houses. We were going away

15 from the village and from the woods. We were going to the lower part of

16 the village of Jezestica.

17 Q. Did you hear shooting while you were fleeing?

18 A. Of course we did.

19 Q. Did you hear any grenades or other types of artillery coming from

20 the uniformed soldiers?

21 A. Some projectiles hit my house, as I told you. Now, whether these

22 were handheld launchers or mortars or whatever, I'm not very

23 knowledgeable about these things.

24 Q. Did you have a chance --

25 A. Detonations could be heard, yes.

Page 716

1 Q. Thank you. Excuse me. Did you have a chance after the attack to

2 speak to two women from the village, one named Stanica Djuric, and the

3 other name Perka Djuric?

4 A. After the attack, yes. They had also sought shelter from the

5 village somewhere in the woods. So they came to us from the village down

6 there in the valley, in the fields, yes.

7 MR. JONES: Your Honour.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Jones.

9 MR. JONES: I anticipate we're probably coming for the first time

10 in this trial to an issue of hearsay. I know there's no hearsay rule

11 here. Unless it would be useful for our part to have some guidance as to

12 how this will be approached. Because if you say hearsay evidence will be

13 given when we don't know on what basis the declarants got their

14 information from, then it could be extremely unreliable. And that would

15 be something we would object to.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Basically, Mr. Jones, you clear this away from your

17 mind. I thought I had made it clear when we issued the guidelines that

18 the rule here is the inverse of what you are used to. The rule here is

19 to admit hearsay evidence, rather than to be watchful and on guard

20 against hearsay evidence. The rule is to admit hearsay evidence. These

21 are cases that without hearsay evidence you couldn't possibly go along.

22 But then at the end, it's the criteria that it will use in assessing the

23 probative value that we will give to each and every piece of hearsay

24 evidence. Hearsay evidence is going to be accepted throughout the entire

25 trial. But then what weight we give it, we will decide at the very end.

Page 717

1 MR. JONES: Your Honour, I'm obviously well aware of that. As

2 you'll note, I said I know there's no hearsay rule here. I'm the last

3 person who is going to come here and insist on following some national

4 procedure. The reason I mention it is because I was wondering whether it

5 would be necessary for my learned friend to establish some foundation for

6 the basis on which the declarants made their statements or whether that's

7 something we have to do in cross-examination.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: First of all, I think it has got more to do with

9 the cross-examination. And in an adversarial system, you will understand

10 that we will interfere as little as possible. The Prosecution knows, and

11 you know, that you can bring forward hearsay evidence and that ultimately

12 the weight that we might give to that hearsay evidence may be less than

13 we would give to direct evidence.

14 MR. JONES: I'm obliged, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: So it's a question of how you play your cards at

16 the end of the day, you know. I mean -- but we are not going to

17 interfere. Definitely not.

18 MR. JONES: Just to be clear on that from the outset.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

20 Yes, sorry for the interruption, Ms. Sellers. Please proceed.

21 MS. SELLERS: Thank you. I'm grateful, Your Honours.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

23 MS. SELLERS:

24 Q. I'll go back to my last question. I wanted to ask you: After

25 the attack, did you have a chance to speak to two women from the village,

Page 718

1 Stanica Djuric and Perka Djuric?

2 A. Yes, after the attack, we did talk. They said that they sought

3 shelter in a small thicket. They got all of this village, this hamlet of

4 Djermani, the village of Trisici, for instance. And that's where they

5 were in the woods. They went through the woods. These were our

6 neighbours.

7 Q. And did these two women tell you what they saw during the attack?

8 A. Yes, they saw people running around torching houses, shooting.

9 They saw better than we did. We were closer to the houses, so we had to

10 flee further away. Our houses were on the outskirts of the village. So

11 they would be the first to be attacked.

12 Q. Now, the people that they saw torching the houses, were these

13 people wearing uniforms?

14 A. They were probably, yes, yes, wearing uniforms. Some did have

15 uniforms; others did not. That's what the women said at the time.

16 Q. And were these the same people that were carrying guns that you

17 described earlier?

18 A. Well, it all depended on who was where and who could see which

19 people from where, if you can follow this. There are many paths leading

20 to the village and roads leading to the village. And now, it depends.

21 Not everybody took the same paths and the same roads.

22 Q. Let me rephrase it. Witness, are you saying that it was

23 attackers who were torching the houses? Is that who you were referring

24 to, or that the women were referring to?

25 A. Yes, yes, they were torching the houses, these attackers who were

Page 719

1 there, the Muslims. They were torching our houses, yes.

2 Q. After the attack, did you go back up to your house on the hill?

3 A. After the attack, perhaps two or three hours later, we went up to

4 see what had happened. We saw that the entire village was in smoke. We

5 went back to see what had happened and whether there was anything left,

6 whether anything was left of the house, whether the house was in the same

7 condition that I had left it in or whether it was burned down. It had

8 been burning, the top floor. But it was only the cellar that did not

9 burn. We had this kitchen in the cellar, and we slept upstairs. That's

10 where the rooms were and the bathroom and things like that.

11 Q. So did the top floor of your house suffer complete fire damage?

12 A. Well, the roof had caught fire. I'm talking about my house now.

13 My house was made of bricks. And also, there were wooden structures.

14 There were wooden beams, and everything was on fire. However, the cellar

15 could not burn because there was a stone wall. It wasn't wooden beams.

16 And that's why this did not catch fire, but of course the rest had burned

17 down during the day.

18 Q. Can you describe the condition your barn was in after you went

19 back up after the attack.

20 A. Our barn, I had to walk by it before I came to the house. The

21 barn was on fire. It had burned down to the concrete blocks that were

22 used for building the walls. So it was still smouldering, and there was

23 still smoke there.

24 Q. And could you find your farm animals after the attack?

25 A. No. The cow had been in the field, so it was not in the barn in

Page 720

1 the first place. So it was tied in the field, but it wasn't there. The

2 goats weren't there either. The pigs were let out. Before that, they

3 were not corralled in any way. They could walk around the farm. The

4 pigs would roam about anyway. There were two pigs as we arrived. And

5 then there was corn near our house. So then the other pigs had been in

6 the cornfield, and then they came to the house later. But the cows, we

7 couldn't see the cows. We couldn't find the cows, no.

8 Q. Could you see the other houses that were your neighbours' houses

9 on the hills after the attack?

10 A. We had to pass by some houses, and these houses were burning,

11 too. Most of the houses were burning. Some had burned down completely;

12 others had not burned down completely but they were burning. In Trisici,

13 a hamlet near us, there was a house there. It hadn't burned down. The

14 new house hadn't been burned probably because it wasn't completed yet.

15 But the old house next to it had burned down. This is Trisic -- the

16 Trisic family. Trisic Slavoljub was the head of that household. He died

17 before the war so his wife and his children were the owners of that

18 house.

19 Q. Were you able after the attack to return and live in your house

20 immediately after?

21 A. We couldn't. Everything was burned down, destroyed. It's not

22 only me. Nobody could go back to the village, to the hill, because we

23 had no place to live.

24 Q. So where did the people who used to live on the hill in your

25 village, where did they go?

Page 721

1 A. Some people went away; others stayed. Some people had relatives

2 down in the valley, a brother, an uncle, whatever. Other people went to

3 Bratunac, to Serbia, wherever, because they couldn't go on living in

4 burned houses and destroyed houses. So some people went to other places,

5 and other people stayed behind if they had someone who could put them up

6 in the village. Others had family in Serbia or in Bratunac or wherever,

7 so then they left the village. Quite a few people did.

8 Q. Witness, to your knowledge, did the Army of the Republika Srpska

9 fight against those uniformed, armed -- what you described as Muslims on

10 that day of August 8th in your village?

11 A. Well, let me tell you: Perhaps they did fight somewhere, but

12 then in other places they didn't. All of this happened suddenly.

13 Q. Did you see any members of the Republika Srpska Army in your

14 village that day during the attack?

15 A. Afterwards, some soldiers came. After the village had burned

16 down, some soldiers came. I don't know.

17 Q. Did you see during the attack any soldiers from Republika Srpska

18 Army fighting the uniformed men?

19 A. Some soldiers came and went up to the village, towards the burned

20 village, the village that had burned down. They went up there.

21 Q. And was this after the attack?

22 A. After the attack, yes.

23 Q. I would now like to ask you to describe to the Trial Chamber what

24 life was like in the village after the attack up until January of 1993,

25 if you could.

Page 722

1 A. Life was terrible in that village. That's the only thing a

2 person can say. Our neighbours and I, we couldn't do anything with the

3 crops we had planted up on the hills. People had left the villages.

4 There was some kind of fear among the people, among the villagers. The

5 time will come when we will all have to leave, including the people who

6 lived in the valley. I lived in my wife's house in the valley later on.

7 Some people thought that the time would come when everybody from the

8 village would have to leave their property, their houses, the property

9 that they were building up for centuries and that they worked so hard

10 for.

11 Q. And did there come a time when the village was attacked again?

12 A. A time did come, yes. This was later, a few months later, on the

13 7th of January. What remained of our village, that is, that flat area in

14 the valley, it was attacked on the 7th of January 1993.

15 Q. And the 7th of January, is that a holiday?

16 A. The 7th of January is a holiday for us, the Christian Orthodox

17 Serbs. It's Christmas. All the Serb people celebrate Christmas on the

18 7th of January.

19 Q. And at what time on Christmas Day was your village attacked?

20 A. At what time? Early in the morning, around 5.30 or 6.00. Our

21 village was attacked from several different directions. The villages in

22 the hills were not attacked any more because they burned down. So they

23 got closer to our village. So Mandici, the neighbouring village,

24 Siljkovici, many villages in the Kravica area. There was shooting.

25 Shooting started from all sides. They were shooting at our village and

Page 723

1 the other villages.

2 Q. Would you please tell the Trial Chamber who was shooting at your

3 village. Who attacked your village?

4 A. Our village was attacked probably by the same people. These

5 Muslims, our neighbours, these soldiers. They attacked our village, what

6 had remained of our village and these other villages around it from the

7 commune of Kravica.

8 Q. What were the Muslim soldiers wearing on that day when they

9 attacked the village?

10 A. These soldiers who I could see - and it was hard to see them

11 because there was a lot of snow there - they had some kind of uniforms

12 on, white uniforms, so it was hard to see them. It's hard to see a white

13 uniform in the snow. You cannot tell it apart from the snow. There was

14 a lot of snow then, perhaps 50 or 65 centimetres of snow. That's how

15 deep or how high, whatever, the snow was.

16 Q. So did the white uniforms of the soldiers act as a type of

17 camouflage because of the snowy conditions?

18 A. Most probably so, so that it would be difficult to see them, a

19 white uniform, I mean.

20 Q. Could I ask you now, where were you when this attack began on the

21 7th of January?

22 A. We were near our house down there in the village. Shooting

23 started from different directions. So people are bound to panic in a

24 situation like that, where to go, where to flee. The people who were

25 there set out towards Kravica, towards the main road, the asphalt road.

Page 724

1 The houses that were closer to them that were the first to be attacked,

2 they were already on fire. You could see the smoke coming from those

3 houses.

4 Q. And did you come out of your house and see those houses on fire?

5 A. We had to go out. We could not wait. So the houses could be

6 seen, yes. My house, or rather, my wife's house had burned down on the

7 8th of August, so this is where I was. My wife has no brothers. She did

8 have a sister, but her sister did not live there. So it was as if it

9 were my house, too. We lived there together and we maintained the house.

10 Q. When you left your house, did you go toward the main road?

11 A. We went towards the main road, the asphalt road to Kravica,

12 because our only way out was to go to Kravica because there were shooting

13 coming from neighbouring villages. So we went towards Kravica.

14 Jezestica was attacked, Mandici, the neighbouring village. Also

15 Siljkovici. These were the places where we heard shooting coming from,

16 and we noticed what was happening in those villages.

17 Q. And what was happening in those villages that you saw?

18 A. We heard gunfire, and we saw people torching houses in my

19 village. I couldn't see it in Siljkovici or Mandici. I couldn't see the

20 people. I could see the smoke. But there is a distance involved. It's

21 a few kilometres away. But in my village, I could see the people who

22 were shooting from different directions. Also, I could see houses being

23 set on fire.

24 Q. And was it the same people who attacked your village who set the

25 houses on fire in your village?

Page 725

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Page 726

1 A. They were Muslims, but I don't know whether they were the same

2 ones that did it the first time. I couldn't recognise any of them.

3 People who were closer to them could recognise them. But it's not that

4 somebody stayed behind in their house. Whoever stayed behind in their

5 own houses was killed or burned in the house or killed in front of the

6 house. Anybody who could find out more or see more. These people are

7 considered to be as missing, but I haven't seen any of these people until

8 the present day, and no one from our neighbourhood could find anything

9 out about them.

10 Q. The people you're referring to as missing, are they villagers

11 from your village?

12 A. From our village, yes, yes. They didn't find them. They didn't

13 bury them. Now, whether animals devoured them and that's why their

14 bodies couldn't be found or whether they were taken away somewhere, that,

15 I don't know.

16 Q. And the people who were setting fire to the houses, were they the

17 men in the white uniforms?

18 A. Well, you know what? They were getting close to houses, entering

19 houses, shooting at houses. But we just saw smoke. We did not see

20 whether they were setting the houses on fire. We could not see them

21 setting fire to the houses. But we saw smoke coming from the roofs and

22 from the windows, and that meant that the houses were on fire.

23 Q. And this is after they walked into the houses or went into the

24 houses?

25 A. We saw them come to the houses, approach the houses, these houses

Page 727

1 that were further away. So smoke came out of the houses through the

2 windows or the roofs. So we realised that the houses were burning.

3 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I was about to say. We'll be

4 finished, but there will be another segment so I suggest we take a break.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: I think that's a good idea, Ms. Sellers. So what

6 we will do is we will have a 25-minute break. In the meantime, Mr.

7 Jones, please be prepared to start your cross-examination during the next

8 session.

9 MR. JONES: Of course, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

11 --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.

12 --- On resuming at 11.01 a.m.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, let's proceed, Ms. Sellers, please.

14 MS. SELLERS: Thank you, Your Honour.

15 Q. Witness, I have just a couple more questions. I believe you

16 testified that you were fleeing on the main road toward Kravica after the

17 second attack on Jezestica. Is that correct?

18 A. We were moving towards Kravica along the main road. And there's

19 a canal and a small river along this road, so some people were going

20 along the road. Some were taking the canal. Some were walking in the

21 little river. But that was the road that we took.

22 Q. Who were the people who were fleeing with you?

23 A. These were people from my village, from the village. My

24 neighbours from the village. One young man, I don't know whether he was

25 from Kravica or from somewhere else, but he was along with me at that

Page 728

1 point in time. I don't know whether he was from Kravica or from some

2 other village. But he joined me, and we reached Kravica together.

3 Q. Thank you. Did there come a time when you were going up the road

4 that you were wounded or injured?

5 A. When I made it to the road, I was not. When we were leaving the

6 village, at that point, from my house, then maybe some six or seven

7 hundred metres away from my house, that's where I was wounded. I was

8 wounded near a house. I was trying to shelter myself there and to reach

9 the river so that I could take the river towards Kravica. But I was

10 injured there. I was wounded there.

11 Q. Could you please tell the Trial Chamber where on your body you

12 were wounded.

13 A. I was wounded in the neck near the spine.

14 Q. And do you know who could have inflicted the wound? I mean not

15 necessarily the name of the person, but the type of the person.

16 A. I don't know the name of the person. All I know is that across

17 the street, across from the asphalt road, the neighbours from our -- from

18 the neighbouring Muslim village were firing at us some 30 to 50 metres

19 away from where I was -- from behind a house. They were shooting at us.

20 I was wounded. I fell down. And the man who was walking in front of me

21 noticed that, so he helped me. So we managed to reach this small river

22 that goes from my village to Kravica, and we took -- we walked in this

23 small river all the way from the village to Kravica, to the local commune

24 of Kravica.

25 Q. Do you know whether the people who were shooting at you were

Page 729

1 wearing the white camouflage uniforms?

2 A. The people who were shooting at us were wearing uniforms. They

3 were the ones who were shooting at us.

4 Q. After you reached Kravica, did you have to go to the hospital?

5 A. Yes. I went to the hospital. I was in the hospital in Zvornik

6 for treatment.

7 Q. And after you left the hospital, were you able to return to your

8 village to live?

9 A. We were not able to return to the village because it was burned,

10 destroyed, plundered. It was not possible to go back because the houses

11 had burned down. After that, my wife came to visit me in the hospital.

12 And when I left the hospital, I went to see my wife and one child in

13 Sabac. We stayed with my sister. Then we went to Belgrade to stay with

14 my uncle. So I was moving from one relative to another. I spent a

15 couple of months here, a couple of months with my family. We kept going

16 round to different relatives.

17 Q. In October of 1993, were you drafted into the Army of Republika

18 Srpska?

19 A. In October or thereabouts, I think I came back from there. I

20 came to visit my parents, and we were then picked up by the police and

21 mobilised.

22 Q. Witness, I just have one final question I would like to ask, and

23 that is: Were you ever paid or given money for the damage to your

24 property or for the loss of your livestock, the animals, or any of your

25 equipment due to the attack on either the 7 -- the 8th of August 1992 or

Page 730

1 the 8th of January -- I'm sorry, the 7th of January 1993?

2 A. There was no compensation as far as my village is concerned, the

3 upper part of the village. We didn't receive any aid, any compensation

4 for damages or anything like that. But the place where I'm living now, I

5 did receive a donation for a house. My wife, her father, she doesn't

6 have any sisters or brothers, we are actually supporting her father. So

7 we received assistance. We received a donation in order to build a house

8 where we are living today. However, we didn't receive any compensation.

9 We just received a -- some assistance in order to build a house. We

10 received the material.

11 Q. I thank you very much.

12 MS. SELLERS: Your Honours, I have no further questions of this

13 witness.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Ms. Sellers.

15 You are now going to be cross-examined by Mr. Jones, who is one

16 of the lawyers appearing for Mr. Oric. It is my responsibility -- I

17 think your client has got something for you.

18 It is my responsibility to draw your attention to something which

19 we consider very important, namely that although you have been summoned

20 here to give evidence by the Prosecution, by the Office of the

21 Prosecution, you are testifying under the solemn obligation to say the

22 truth -- to speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

23 So you have a responsibility also not to make any distinction between the

24 Prosecution and the Defence. Your obligation, your duty under the solemn

25 declaration that you have taken is to answer the questions that the

Page 731

1 Defence will now put to you in the same way and with the same

2 truthfulness and completeness, fullness, that you have answered the

3 questions of the Prosecution. Did you understand me?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, thank you.

6 Mr. Jones, you may proceed. Thank you.

7 MR. JONES: Thank you, Your Honour.

8 Cross-examined by Mr. Jones:

9 Q. Mr. Djuric, you mentioned this morning that you have given two

10 statements in the past, one in Bratunac and one in Milici. Were those

11 both to the Office the Prosecutor?

12 MS. SELLERS: Excuse me, Your Honour, I'm very sorry to

13 interrupt. But I believe that was testimony that was held in private

14 session, and that is not part of the record. I would just ask that that

15 possibly be rephrased.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I think you are right, Ms. Sellers.

17 Mr. Jones.

18 MR. JONES: I can certainly do that. It was only to avoid

19 confusing the witness by referring to private session or closed session.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: You can ask the same question that was asked in

21 private session this morning in any case. There's nothing stopping you.

22 MR. JONES:

23 Q. Mr. Djuric, it is right that you have given two statements in the

24 past, one in Bratunac and one in Milici?

25 A. Yes, I recall that as being so.

Page 732

1 Q. And were those both given to the Office of the Prosecutor, or did

2 you give a statement also to the Serb authorities?

3 A. I did not give any statements to the authorities.

4 Q. Now, it's right, isn't it, that your father's name is Cedo?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Is that a nickname or is that his full name?

7 A. That's his full name.

8 Q. Do you have a nickname?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Or did you when you were younger?

11 A. No.

12 Q. It's right, isn't it, that you have a brother, Savo, a couple of

13 years younger than you?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Now, you've lived in Jezestica all your life?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. You told us that Jezestica is part of the local community of

18 Kravica, which is in the Municipality of Bratunac. So I want to ask you

19 a question about the Kravica community. And I'm going to mention some

20 hamlets, and you can say yes or no whether they're in the Kravica

21 community.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Jones, again, sorry to interrupt you. Why

23 don't we make available for ourselves and for everyone, including members

24 of the public, a map of the area so that we can understand better.

25 MR. JONES: Indeed, Your Honour. It was something I was hoping

Page 733

1 would be produced in examination-in-chief. I have a rough photocopy

2 which could be put on the ELMO.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Before we put it on the ELMO, could you hand it

4 over to the Prosecution for verification that they agree with it.

5 Otherwise, if not, perhaps we can get an official map.

6 Do you have any objections, Ms. Sellers, if we use that map?

7 MS. SELLERS: No, I have no objections.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So let's put that map on the ELMO,

9 please.

10 Now, we will need -- the technician's on notice already -- we

11 will need to zoom in and out as we go along.

12 Yes, Mr. Jones.

13 MR. JONES: Yes. You'll see I've highlighted certain towns and

14 areas on that map.

15 Q. Can you, Mr. Djuric, first of all, find Kravica on the map.

16 A. [Indicates]

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Can we zoom in. For the record, the Trial Chamber

18 notices that the accused [sic] has pointed to a spot on the map, which

19 upon being zoomed in shows the name "Kravica."

20 MR. JONES:

21 Q. Just as a matter of orientation, and you're free to disagree with

22 me, Mr. Djuric, if I get this wrong, that you have the Drina towards the

23 north, curving around to the side, with Bratunac on the bottom right-hand

24 corner of our screen. If you could point to Bratunac.

25 A. Bratunac?

Page 734

1 Q. Yes.

2 A. Yes, it states here on the map, Bratunac.

3 Q. The road you've referred to --

4 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Mr. Jones. For the record the Trial

5 Chamber notices that the accused [sic] has pointed to a spot on the

6 map --

7 MS. SELLERS: Excuse me, Your Honour. This is a Prosecution

8 witness, not the accused.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Sorry. The witness has pointed to a spot on the

10 map which upon being zoomed shows the name Bratunac.

11 Thank you Ms. Sellers for pointing that out. I mixed Mr. Jones

12 with Mr. Nichols and the witness with the accused.

13 MR. JONES:

14 Q. If you could, Mr. Djuric, could you just trace the course of the

15 road from Bratunac which goes to Konjevic Polje, which you've referred to

16 as the asphalt road.

17 A. The asphalt road.

18 Q. That passes through Jezestica.

19 A. Well, to a part, it -- Jezestica goes all the way to Gajici. So

20 the road goes from Bratunac. Is that -- that's -- is that the road that

21 goes there? Jezestica reaches that part near Kajici, on this side.

22 Q. I think we can all see Jezestica there. Is that right? If you

23 could point to it.

24 A. Yes, that's that part there where it says Jezestica, Jazbine.

25 All of that belongs to Jezestica. These are the hamlets of Jazbine.

Page 735

1 Jezestica, Rankovici.

2

3

4

5

6

7 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Jezestica. Djermani.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: For the record, the Trial Chamber notices that the

10 witness has pointed out the asphalt road indicated to him as well as to

11 one spot on the map which upon being zoomed shows the name of Jezestica,

12 also the village of Djermani.

13 MR. JONES:

14 Q. Perhaps we can just leave the map on the ELMO.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I think that's a good idea, Mr. Jones.

16 MR. JONES: But the witness needn't refer to it any more.

17 Q. You can put down the pointer.

18 Now I'm just going to mention the names of some hamlets and you

19 can confirm yes or no whether they're in the Kravica community, if that's

20 clear.

21 First of all, obviously, Jezestica and Kravica. I won't mention

22 those, but they're obviously in that community.

23 I'm waiting for the translation.

24 Okay, let's start. Jezestica?

25 A. Villages after that?

Page 736

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Page 737

1 Q. Yes. I'll mention names of hamlets, and then you just say yes or

2 no if it's in the Kravica community. Okay?

3 A. Well, I don't know each and every hamlet. But in my own village,

4 I know every hamlet. However, as far as the neighbouring villages are

5 concerned, I don't know. There are many of them in Kravica. But there

6 are some Serb villages there, so...

7 Q. I'll just mention them, and you say yes, no, or I don't know.

8 Kravica. Obviously in its own community. Donji Bacici.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Brezanci.

11 A. Brezanci.

12 Q. Brezanci, sorry.

13 A. Brezanci. I know that children from there went to the Kravica

14 school, so that belongs to the Kravica local community. I don't know. I

15 know that the whole village is called Lipenovici, but I'm not sure about

16 the hamlets. There are some other hamlets, Ratinci [phoen] and so on. I

17 don't know whether that is part of the Kravica or the Lipinci local

18 community. I don't know. But the children went to the school there, the

19 same elementary school that I attended, the one that has the eight-year

20 elementary school in Kravica.

21 Q. Dolovi.

22 A. Dolovi, yes, that is also near Brezanci. It is all part of the

23 Lipenovici village. I don't know if all of them are in the Kravica local

24 community. The children did go to the Kravica school. So I don't know.

25 I'm not sure. I'm not able to tell you how -- what each village borders

Page 738

1 on and which local community it belongs to.

2 Q. We don't need that much detail. It's really simple if you can

3 say whether or not it's in the rough area of Kravica. If one seems to be

4 way outside, then you can let me know.

5 Lazarici is the next one.

6 A. Lazarici, this is a village near Siljkovici. It's a hamlet. The

7 hamlet of Lazarici and the village of Siljkovici. They belong to the

8 Kravica local community, Lazarici. This is a hamlet, part of the

9 Siljkovici village.

10 Q. You can simply say yes or no for each of these places. There's

11 no need to elaborate each time. Yes or no, whether they're in the

12 Kravica community. Marici.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Donji Bacici.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Jezero, Kravica Jezero.

17 A. There are some hamlets called Jezero. I don't know which one you

18 exactly mean. Perhaps the one that's part of Bacici. Well, I didn't go

19 to many of those villages. I had nothing to do there, so I don't know.

20 Q. [Previous interpretation continues] ...

21 A. I don't know exactly what is a part of each of those villages. I

22 know that our village does belong to that local community, but as far as

23 other villages are concerned, I don't know.

24 Q. Ocenovici.

25 A. Ocenovici, yes. Yes, they should be a part of the community,

Page 739

1 yes.

2 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

3 A. I also know that the children attended the same elementary school

4 that I did, so probably yes, that is a part of it.

5 Q. Popovici.

6 A. Yes, also I think so, yes.

7 Q. Vrane.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And Opravdici.

10 A. Yes, yes.

11 Q. Those are all part of the Kravica local community as far as you

12 know, the towns I've mentioned, villages I've mentioned?

13 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't know whether we should proceed along these

14 lines any further. Because these are things that you could easily agree

15 amongst yourselves. If you make out a list of all the villages, hamlets

16 or whatever, that you believe formed part of this community or

17 municipality or call it whatever you like, you can submit it to the

18 Prosecution, they can agree with it; and if there is one or two or more

19 hamlets they don't agree upon, you can lead questions on those. But

20 otherwise, this is going to go on and on and on when we can deal with it

21 in a different matter. That's why we have the system of agreeing on

22 facts.

23 MR. JONES: Your Honour, it won't go on and on and on. The

24 reason why I'm posing this question is because it's relevant to this

25 witness's knowledge whether those villages were part of the local

Page 740

1 community, because it's relevant to other answers he has given.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Basically how much weight do you think the Trial

3 Chamber is going to give to the testimony of this witness who may think

4 he knows?

5 MR. JONES: Your Honour will see when I get to that part of his

6 evidence.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: You can easily get another witness who will tell

8 you exactly the opposite, if he happens to know more or less than this

9 witness. But these things can be quickly established in a much more

10 formal way.

11 Anyway, finish this exercise as quickly as you can and proceed to

12 the more substantial part of your cross-examination, please.

13 MR. JONES:

14 Q. Well, I was about to ask you the hamlets of Jezestica, which is

15 obviously your town. Djermani is where you were living. Is Kajici part

16 of your hamlet?

17 A. To a part, yes, we do go up to Kajici. Kajici is also in the

18 same local community, in the Kravica local commune. We pass through

19 Kajici. On the map, you can see the village of Kajici.

20 Q. And now, Magasici, is that a Serb village? Was it before the

21 war?

22 A. As far as I know, Magasici is a neighbouring village, next to

23 Jezestica. It was a mixed village, both peoples lived there as far as I

24 know. I didn't really go to Magasici all that much. I didn't have any

25 relatives or friends there. So I wasn't really there much, and I don't

Page 741

1 know too much about it. All I know is that when we went to school, I

2 remember that both ethnic groups also went there from Magasici.

3 Q. Now, you've mentioned neighbouring Muslim villages where you say

4 the attacks came from. I think you said, correct me if I'm wrong, that

5 that's Jaglici and Cizmici. Is that right?

6 A. Jaglici is behind our village, behind Jezestica. On one side of

7 Jaglici, and then on the other side there is Bukova Glava, Jaglici. I

8 don't know the names of all of these villages. I don't know the order

9 that they go in. I know about Jaglici because those people, we did not

10 go to school with them.

11 Q. I apologise for interrupting you, but His Honour has made clear

12 that we want to make rapid progress if we can. If you keep your answers

13 short and try to answer in simple terms my questions. Jaglici and

14 Cizmici are in Bratunac Municipality. That's right, isn't it?

15 A. I don't know exactly. I'm not sure whether some of them belonged

16 to the Srebrenica commune. I know that our village belongs to the

17 Bratunac Municipality, but as far as the neighbouring villages that are

18 further along, I'm not sure if they're part of the Bratunac Municipality

19 or not. That's not something that I am aware of. I don't know exactly

20 to which municipality they belong.

21 Q. I want to go back to Magasici briefly. You said that was a mixed

22 village before the war. During the war, though, it was no longer a mixed

23 village, was it?

24 A. I'm not sure, no.

25 Q. Well, would you say that the Muslims in Magasici remained there

Page 742

1 throughout the war?

2 A. As far as I heard, I think that they did not, but I'm not sure.

3 I didn't really go to Magasici.

4 Q. But they did not -- the Muslims in Magasici did not remain in

5 Magasici during the war. Is that what you mean?

6 A. I think that they did not. They were partially -- I know that

7 the Serbian village of Magasici was burned down. I know that a colleague

8 of mine who was doing the same work as I was, that he was killed. That's

9 as far as Magasici is concerned. I think he was doing construction work

10 as well. We worked together.

11 Q. Do you know where the Muslims from Magasici went and what

12 happened to them?

13 A. I don't know.

14 Q. Let me ask you about Glogova. If you could point to Glogova on

15 the map with the pointer. Perhaps it's not necessary. I think we can

16 see it. It's right in the centre of the screen.

17 Stop there, please. Right.

18 A. [Indicates]

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. For the record, the witness points to a spot

20 on the map which upon being zoomed shows the name Glogova.

21 MR. JONES: Right.

22 Q. Now, that's very near you, isn't it, very near Jezestica? You

23 don't have to go on the map. You can tell us on the basis of your

24 knowledge.

25 A. Glogova, I mean, one passes through Glogova when going from

Page 743

1 Jezestica. It's not too far away, only a few kilometres.

2 Q. So you must know it very well and you must have passed by

3 practically every day of your life.

4 A. I still pass through it when I'm there, so yes, I do. I

5 mean -- I don't know what you mean, really.

6 Q. You simply have to answer the questions, and we'll take it from

7 there.

8 Glogova was a Muslim village before May 1992, wasn't it?

9 A. It was. I know that there are some Serb houses there, too. I

10 don't know whether they belonged to Glogova or Avdagina Njiva. But I

11 know that there were some Serbs living there in Glogova, I think. Now,

12 did they come from Magasici in part? I don't know.

13 Q. It's right, isn't it, that there were about 2.000 Muslims living

14 in the Glogova area before the war, a large community?

15 A. I don't know how many people lived there.

16 Q. [Previous interpretation continues]... estimate.

17 A. I don't know. I mean --

18 Q. You estimate there are four to five hundred people in Jezestica.

19 If you know, how many people are in Glogova, if you can help us?

20 A. How can I know how many there were when --

21 Q. [Previous interpretation continues]....

22 Now, Bratunac Municipality as a whole, was it not mostly Muslims

23 before the war, 21.500 Muslims, 11.500 Serbs. Does that sound right to

24 you?

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Witness, if you know the answer, answer it. Give

Page 744

1 an answer. If you know, please go ahead. If you don't know, just say "I

2 don't know."

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know exactly. I never did.

4 It's not that I am some kind of authority to keep records of this kind

5 and to write how many people live where. There's no way I can know this.

6 MR. JONES:

7 Q. Of course not. The reason I'm asking this is because the

8 questions which I'll be asking you are designed to discover what happened

9 to the Muslims in Bratunac Municipality during this period. So you lived

10 in Bratunac Municipality throughout the war. You must be aware that it

11 was taken over by the Serbs in April 1992. Is that something you're

12 aware of or not?

13 A. It is correct that I lived in Bratunac. My house burned down,

14 and I know that they let us stay wherever it was possible to stay, where

15 there was accommodation available.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: That's not the question that was put to you. Mr.

17 Jones, could you repeat the question again. It's not because you didn't

18 make yourself clear, but it's because the witness has avoided answering

19 it. Could you please put the question again.

20 And Witness, please, try to answer it.

21 MR. JONES:

22 Q. The question is are you aware that April 1992, the municipality

23 which you live in, Bratunac, was taken over by the Serbs?

24 A. Well, you see, I mean, I'm not very knowledgeable about these

25 things. I wasn't there. I had had an operation. I was in Serbia. You

Page 745

1 see what I'm saying?

2 Q. [Previous interpretation continues]... I don't know.

3 Have you heard of the Serbian Democratic Party, the SDS?

4 A. I have heard of it. Of course I've heard of it. Yes.

5 Q. Have you heard of Miroslav Deronjic?

6 A. I have.

7 Q. He was born in Magasici and was practically a neighbour of yours.

8 That's right, isn't it?

9 A. Well, you see, I heard that he had been born there, but I have

10 never been to Magasici, and I never spoke to the person or met him. I

11 don't know him. He belongs to an older generation. I know the people

12 who went to school with me, people of that age group.

13 Q. Mr. Djuric, I would appreciate it if you would try to keep your

14 answers shorter. We don't have so much time. A yes or a no will suffice

15 to the questions I'm about to ask you.

16 Are you aware that Deronjic was the president of the Serb Crisis

17 Staff in your municipality in 1992?

18 A. I don't know about all these authorities that kept changing. I

19 don't know who was where at which point in time.

20 Q. So you didn't know anything really of what was happening

21 politically in your municipality during the war?

22 A. I was not involved in any such thing, and I don't know what was

23 going on. I've never belonged to any party. I don't know anything about

24 such matters.

25 Q. Are you aware that there was an order to disarm Muslims in

Page 746

1 Bratunac Municipality, but at the same time the Serbs were armed?

2 A. I don't know about that.

3 MR. JONES: We have a Defence exhibit. It was -- it's going to

4 be D3, but I've skipped the first two exhibits. Copies have been

5 distributed. If that could be put on the ELMO and see if it jogs the

6 witness's memory.

7 MS. SELLERS: Excuse me, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Distributed to whom? I don't recall having seen

9 this document.

10 MR. JONES: To the Registry.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Sellers.

12 MS. SELLERS: We would just like to state also that we were

13 unaware there were going to be exhibits used during the Defence part,

14 which certainly they have a right to do --

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes.

16 MS. SELLERS: -- but I don't know whether the procedure we're

17 setting up is to inform the other party --

18 JUDGE AGIUS: If you don't have that procedure in place, we will

19 impose it. Because you can't have a system where I expect -- or we

20 expect -- the Trial Chamber expects you to disclose or to make --

21 indicate to the Defence the documents you're going to make use of the day

22 after and the day after possibly, while the Defence hasn't got that

23 responsibility.

24 So for the future, if you intend to make use of documents during

25 your cross-examination, you're expected to inform the Prosecution and the

Page 747

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Page 748

1 Trial Chamber at least the day before or when you have made up your mind

2 that you would be making use of those documents. Because just as you

3 need time to check on the documents that the Prosecution will be making

4 use of, the Prosecution also has got that right. So it's --

5 MR. JONES: Your Honour, I'm making these decisions as I go

6 along. As you'll see, this is D3.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, okay, I appreciate, because I have done

8 cross-examinations in my life as well. And it may well be that documents

9 become necessary to produce as you go along. But there are also

10 documents which you certainly plan beforehand to make use of, such as

11 this document. Because this is not a question which has just fallen from

12 heaven. This is a question that was planned.

13 MR. JONES: If the witness had said yes, that is what happened,

14 then there would be no need for the exhibit.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, but in cross-examination you also anticipate

16 that he may say no. So please be as transparent as possible with each

17 other. I expect the Prosecution to do what they did for the purpose of

18 today's sitting, giving us a list of documents they possibly will use,

19 and I expect the Defence to do the same. There will be exceptions,

20 obviously. The need will rise from time to time to resort to a document

21 that was unthought of, which was not planned to bring forward, but that

22 should be the exception and not the rule.

23 MR. JONES: I appreciate that, Your Honour. At the same time,

24 you're obviously aware that the disclosure obligations are not the same

25 on each party.

Page 749

1 JUDGE AGIUS: This is not disclosure. This is not disclosure.

2 This is -- as I said, the trial system nowadays is not taking the other

3 party or the other side by surprise. I mean, it's no longer the case.

4 MR. JONES: My intention wasn't to take anyone by surprise.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm sure of that. I'm sure that this is something

6 that perhaps we did not make ourselves clear on from the very beginning.

7 But we are definitely making ourselves clear now.

8 MR. JONES: I'm going to leave that exhibit aside for the moment.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: No, you can use it, Mr. Jones. I mean, there's no

10 problem with using it.

11 MR. JONES: That's fine, Your Honour. I'll move on.

12 Q. Miroslav Deronjic was indicted, as you may or may not be aware,

13 by this Tribunal for crimes against humanity committed in Glogova,

14 Bratunac. And when he was interviewed by the Prosecution, he said

15 certain things which I'm going to put to you and ask you questions about.

16 Is that clear?

17 JUDGE AGIUS: So let's start with the first question, because you

18 have already asked him a question and you're moving to the second.

19 Are you aware, sir, that Miroslav Deronjic stood -- was indicted

20 before this Tribunal?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know about that. I am aware of

22 that. But I'm not that familiar with it. I don't follow this. It's not

23 that I follow the news or -- I mean, I don't know how and in which way.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Are you aware that he pleaded guilty and was

25 eventually sentenced?

Page 750

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As I said, I don't really keep

2 abreast of all these events. I don't read the newspapers, and I don't

3 watch television. I have such a lot of my own work that I don't really

4 follow politics, and I'm not really that well informed. I don't know.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Back to you, Mr. Jones.

6 MR. JONES:

7 Q. I'm going to put certain things which he said to you for your

8 comment. The first is he said, speaking of how the SDS prepared for war

9 by arming Serbs and forming units in the field, he said:

10 "So in Bratunac, we had three small Serb units, upstream from the

11 Drina and downstream in Kravica. So what we tried to do was to form

12 units made up of local people. We tried to form some form of commands.

13 We called them detachments."

14 Now, stopping there, detachments, I suppose, would be ceta in

15 Serbian. Is that right? Well, you don't have to confirm that.

16 My question is --

17 A. I know that I was at my home in my village.

18 Q. So is it your evidence that you were not in one of these

19 detachments before I think --

20 A. I was not, no. No, I was not.

21 Q. Are you sure about that? Are you sure about that? You weren't

22 in a detachment?

23 A. I was not, no.

24 Q. I'll get back to that. He went on to say, Mr. Deronjic,

25 "Real war operations began in Srebrenica after the 17th of April,

Page 751

1 and we in the SDS leadership took over power in Bratunac. I'm not sure

2 exactly when this was, but I think it was the end of April. I think that

3 was correct. And then we formed a municipal crisis staff."

4 Now, stopping there, is it your evidence that you're not aware a

5 crisis staff was formed and there was a takeover of power in Bratunac?

6 You can answer yes or no.

7 A. I don't know anything about that. I don't.

8 Q. Did you travel to Bratunac during this period, to the town of

9 Bratunac?

10 A. No.

11 Q. All the time you were in your village, tucked away, unaware of

12 what was going on?

13 A. Yes, I was in the village.

14 Q. Another thing he said "after the 20th of April" - that's 1992 -

15 "a military unit of the JNA arrived in Bratunac led by Mr. Reljic who was

16 a captain by rank." So stopping there, according to that, the JNA

17 arrived in Bratunac in April; that's the federal Yugoslav army. You're

18 saying that you didn't see tanks, transporters, artillery being moved

19 along the road to Bratunac. Is that your evidence?

20 A. I myself was not in Bratunac. Some vehicles were travelling

21 along the roads. They were probably withdrawing as the troops, the army

22 were withdrawing after this disintegration. I don't know.

23 Q. But during this time, you did see military vehicles on the road

24 outside -- the road beside Jezestica?

25 A. Well, I'm not right by the road, so I could not see exactly what

Page 752

1 was passing down the road. We would hear something. Sometimes if a

2 person is by the road, he can see what is passing along, but not from far

3 away.

4 Q. All right. And then one final passage from what Mr. Deronjic

5 said. Quote:

6 "There's an atmosphere of intimidation and killing, so they" -

7 that's the Muslims in this period in Bratunac and Srebrenica

8 Municipalities - "were leaving in that atmosphere. So even if it was

9 something not directly aggressive, it was happening in this, this

10 atmosphere that was conducive to them leaving.

11 "The second part, the other part or number of Muslims who were

12 not leaving because of this were to be expelled by force from the

13 municipalities, and the part or the number of Muslims who were willing to

14 put up resistance - so I'm talking about a third group - were the ones we

15 were going to wage war with."

16 My question is, were you not aware of this atmosphere of

17 intimidation and killing of Muslims in your very municipality?

18 A. I was not aware of it.

19 Q. You weren't aware that Muslims were being expelled from Glogova,

20 Suha, Zaluzje, Voljevica, or any of those places?

21 A. I was not aware of that. I did not know about that. I didn't

22 know.

23 Q. Let's go briefly back to Glogova. I'm going to put to you what

24 this Tribunal found in the Deronjic sentencing judgement the 30th of

25 March 2004, and see if you agree that this happened. Deronjic pleaded

Page 753

1 guilty to crimes against humanity,

2 "committed through the following underlying acts: Ordering to

3 attack the village of Glogova on 9 May 1992; burning it down in part, and

4 forcibly displacing of Bosnian Muslim residents from the village. As a

5 result 64 Muslim civilians from the village were killed, Bosnian Muslim

6 homes, private property, and a mosque were destroyed, and substantial

7 part of Glogova was razed to the ground."

8 That's in the sentencing judgement. In other words, across the

9 road from you, are you saying that in May, you didn't see houses burning

10 or hear gunshots or any of this going on? Is that your evidence?

11 A. Glogova is pretty far away from us. It's not just across the

12 road, you see. It's several kilometres away.

13 Q. I won't pursue that. It's right, isn't it, that the Kravica TO

14 was involved in the operations in Glogova? The Territorial Defence from

15 your local community.

16 I'm not sure if that was translated, but I think he said I don't

17 know.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: I didn't hear the witness saying anything either.

19 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters didn't hear anything.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, could the witness repeat his answer, please.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. Do you understand

22 what I'm saying? I wasn't there, and I don't know.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.

24 MR. JONES:

25 Q. That's because, as you were telling us, you weren't in any

Page 754

1 detachment in 1992.

2 A. I was not.

3 MR. JONES: I would like to put forward a Defence exhibit. It

4 was provisionally D7 -- sorry, D6. D6. Apologies if it causes

5 inconvenience. We can take our time.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the document will be given the

7 Exhibit Number D1.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Does this create confusion in your ranks, Mr.

9 Jones?

10 MR. JONES: To be D1, no, Your Honour. No.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: It's all right. So this will be D1.

12 MR. JONES: If that can be placed on the ELMO.

13 Do we have that on the ELMO? Right.

14 We have an English translation as well.

15 Q. This is the list of conscripts of the Jezestica 1 company, and

16 that's you at number 31, isn't it? Dragan Djuric.

17 A. I see that it says Dragan Djuric here, yes. But there are three

18 or four Dragan Djuric that I know.

19 Q. All from Jezestica?

20 A. From the surrounding villages, yes. There are two or three in

21 Jezestica. Two at the moment. Others moved out.

22 MR. JONES: If we could look at another exhibit, it will be D2.

23 Q. There, again, it's headed "Jezestica 1." That would be the Ceta

24 Jezestica 1. 33, if we can zoom out a bit. We see Dragan Djuric, Cedo,

25 and that means Dragan Djuric whose father is Cedo. Isn't it?

Page 755

1 A. Yes, that's what it says here.

2 Q. That's you, isn't it? You're not going to tell us that the other

3 Dragan Djurics also have a father named Cedo?

4 A. Not all the fathers' names are the same, no, no.

5 Q. So that's you, isn't it?

6 A. I am Dragan Djuric, father's name Cedo, yes.

7 Q. This document shows that you were in Jezestica Ceta 1, isn't it,

8 in a detachment?

9 A. I don't know what they called it, you see. I can see here the

10 names of almost all the people. They're older and younger. I see them

11 all registered on this list.

12 Q. Let's go back to D1. On the top of that, it says "spisak Vojnih

13 Obreznika Cete Jezestica 1," "List of conscripts of the Jezestica 1

14 company." It's a military unit, isn't it?

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Jones, do we have a date for these two

16 documents?

17 MR. JONES: Your Honour, the date is proved by reference to the

18 documents I'm going to introduce in a moment.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. We'll wait.

20 MR. JONES:

21 Q. So, do accept that you were in a detachment, Jezestica 1?

22 A. Well, you see, I don't know what they called it. I was in my

23 village. You see what I'm saying? Now, is this a company? Is it the

24 people of this village? Is it the local population of that village? I

25 don't know what you're going to call it.

Page 756

1 Q. I'm not calling it anything, Mr. Djuric. It's headed "Ceta

2 Jezestica 1," and it says vojnih, which means in your language

3 "soldiers."

4 The fact is you were not telling the truth a moment ago, were

5 you, when you said you were not in the detachment?

6 A. I know that I was at my home. There was no company there. There

7 was no command there whatever. I was at home. I didn't do anything

8 else. I was in my village, and I was at my home.

9 MR. JONES: We have another Defence Exhibit, then, D3, which is

10 the salaries received by persons in that detachment from July 1992.

11 Q. On the cover, we see - it's in Cyrillic - but that's July 1992,

12 isn't it, Mr. Djuric? It's the salary lists from July 1992.

13 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter could not hear the answer.

14 Q. Would you repeat your answer, please.

15 A. Something like that is written on these papers here.

16 Q. You can read, can't you, Mr. Djuric? You're literate?

17 A. Well, I went to school, elementary school.

18 Q. You can read that? Just to establish that you're able to read.

19 July 1992.

20 A. Yes, yes.

21 Q. If we could turn to the next page of that document. Your name

22 appears on 2130, Dragan Djuric, and there's a salary there of 9.300. I

23 suppose it's dinars. Would that be right? It's what you received in

24 August. Sorry, my apologies. July.

25 If we scan to the right of that document, further, please, you

Page 757

1 see signatures. You've signed for your salary. It's right, isn't it,

2 that you were being paid throughout this period as a member of the

3 Jezestica 1 Ceta?

4 MS. SELLERS: Excuse me, Your Honour, I would like the counsel to

5 ask a question, not testify on his own behalf. To ask him did he sign --

6 thank you.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Jones.

8 MR. JONES:

9 Q. Did you sign?

10 A. I don't see it really well here. I cannot see it here. I don't

11 know. Perhaps there is a signature. Perhaps it has been signed.

12 Perhaps somebody else signed. I don't know.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: You have the original of this document?

14 MR. JONES: This document I believe is from the Bratunac

15 collection which is in the Office of the Prosecutor's possession. But we

16 have other documents we can come to on that subject.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: We can also put it on the ELMO for the time being,

18 and we can have an enlargement of the signature part so that he can see

19 better. And he has also not answered directly as well as yet the

20 question on whether he accepts that he received a payment of 9.300 dinars

21 at the end, or roughly towards the end, or near the end of July of 1992.

22 MR. JONES:

23 Q. Yes, could you please answer that question. Did you receive a

24 salary at the end of July 1992 being in the Jezestica Ceta?

25 A. I don't remember. Perhaps I did receive it. I don't remember.

Page 758

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Page 759

1 Q. So it's possible that you were paid for being a member of that

2 detachment?

3 A. I was in my village. If all the people who are on this list here

4 received it, then I probably received it as well. But I really don't

5 remember it.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: People don't receive money for nothing, Mr. Djuric.

7 If you received 9.300 dinars, what did you receive them for? For being

8 at home and staying at home?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember. I'm telling you,

10 I don't remember, sir.

11 MR. JONES:

12 Q. You can also see on that document, can you, the words, if we can

13 see it on the ELMO, "vod" and to the left, if you can move it slightly to

14 the left, a bit more, there we go, stop there. That's the commander of

15 this squadron or part of it, isn't it? Let me put it a different way.

16 Wasn't Milosav Djukanovic the commander, as well as Bosko Rankovic?

17 JUDGE AGIUS: I honestly think you are -- this is not

18 contributing towards clearing up matters, Mr. Jones, because if you see

19 Document D2 that you tendered before, the commander is shown as Nikolic,

20 Dragan, while here it seems to be someone else. So I would stick to what

21 is relevant as regards this witness and proceed with your questions in

22 whichever manner is convenient for you. And then let us decide whether

23 we believe what he is saying or not.

24 MR. JONES: I'm obliged, Your Honour. There may be a distinction

25 there's a command Cete on D1 and command Od. So it's something we can

Page 760

1 deal with later.

2 Q. So we have Jezestica 1 in which you were. How many more

3 Jezestica companies were there, if you know? I mean, if there's 1,

4 presumably there's a 2 or a 3.

5 A. I don't know. I think it refers to Jezestica as the entire

6 village. That's what I think. But I don't know in which way that was

7 separated and divided up.

8 Q. Isn't it right that as you said your village is divided into part

9 on the hills and a part in the valley, that Jezestica 1 was on the hills

10 and Jezestica 2 was in the valley part?

11 A. That's the location of our village. That's where it is.

12 Everybody would go to the valley. That's where they build their houses

13 so as not to be in the hills because of their children, to be closer to

14 the road. That's where people gravitating towards.

15 Q. You haven't answered my question, I'm afraid. My question is

16 isn't one of those military detachments deployed on the hills of your

17 village, Djermani, and the other detachment, Jezestica 2, in the valley,

18 so that we have two military detachments in Jezestica during the war?

19 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the witness's

20 answer.

21 MR. JONES:

22 Q. Repeat your answer, please.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Witness, could you repeat your answer. Try to

24 speak into the microphone as much as you can because sometimes the

25 interpreters are not hearing what you're saying.

Page 761

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know how they divided it.

2 I don't remember that, whether they divided it into Jezestica 1 and

3 Jezestica 2. Do you know what I'm saying? I really don't know.

4 MR. JONES:

5 Q. Now, moving to a slightly different area, you've told us that 30

6 per cent of the people -- well, actually that's not -- I'm not going to

7 be that exact this morning. You told us a number of the people from your

8 village left at the start of the war, I believe. Is that right?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Approximately how many people left your village at the start of

11 the war?

12 A. I didn't count them, to be in a position to know exactly how

13 many. A lot of people left the village, a lot of people had to leave the

14 village. Perhaps 30 per cent or -- I don't know exactly how many.

15 Anyone who had some family or friends somewhere, to be able to go to

16 them, left.

17 Q. And they left because there was a war going on, didn't they?

18 That's why they left?

19 A. That's the reason why, probably, yes.

20 Q. The people who left were mostly women and children, civilians.

21 A. Yes. There were also people who had to leave. There were people

22 who had to leave.

23 Q. So for the most part, there was only people mobilised into the

24 army who remained in your village during the war? That's right, isn't

25 it?

Page 762

1 A. I don't know. I don't know. There were people, there were

2 women, there were children. It's not true that only those who were

3 mobilised stayed behind. There were women, there were elderly women,

4 there were other people.

5 Q. But mostly, most of the people who remained were mobilised into

6 the army, weren't they? The Bosnian Serb Army.

7 A. Probably if that's what they called them, then --

8 Q. Your house in Djermani, you told us, was towards Muslim villages.

9 During the war, your village was actually on the front lines, wasn't it?

10 A. There were -- there was a house in my village.

11 Q. My question was, in your village you were right on the front

12 lines against the Muslims, weren't you?

13 A. My village, and then the next village was a Muslim village. And

14 there was about 2 kilometres between the two villages.

15 Q. And you had trenches and minefields and all the things which go

16 with front lines near your village, didn't you?

17 A. I don't know exactly.

18 Q. You don't know exactly, but you are aware, aren't you, that there

19 were minefields around your home? That's something important which you

20 would have known about?

21 A. There were none around my house.

22 Q. I'm going to ask you now, with the map which is in front of you,

23 if you could draw where the lines went during -- or just before the

24 attack on your village on the 8th of August. Just take a pen and show us

25 where the lines were between the Serb forces and the Muslim forces.

Page 763

1 JUDGE AGIUS: If he knows.

2 MR. JONES:

3 Q. If you know.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: With the understanding that this piece of paper now

5 will become an exhibit.

6 MR. JONES: Yes, Your Honour.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know that.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: So it's not going to become an exhibit because he

9 doesn't know.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.

11 MR. JONES:

12 Q. Could you now give us an estimate of how many people in your

13 village - I'm including the hamlets - were in the Territorial Defence on

14 the 8th of August 1992?

15 A. I don't know exactly.

16 Q. You can give us an estimate, surely.

17 A. I don't know. Perhaps there were about a hundred people, maybe

18 there were more. I don't know how many inhabitants there were.

19 Q. Not inhabitants. How many soldiers, how many Serbs serving in

20 the Territorial Defence or the VRS? We've seen in Jezestica 1 that there

21 were --

22 A. I really don't know anything about that. I mean, if you have the

23 papers, then you can look at it there. But I don't know.

24 Q. You're not willing to give us an estimate, are you, because you

25 know that there were hundreds of people, in this area in the Kravica

Page 764

1 community, who were serving in the Territorial Defence and in the Bosnian

2 Serb Army? That's the reason, isn't it, why you're not giving us an

3 estimate?

4 A. I really don't know. I'm not knowledgeable about that. So I

5 don't know. How could I tell you something that I'm not knowledgeable

6 about and that I don't know?

7 Q. Because you were serving in a Cete, in a detachment, with 40-odd

8 people. Presumably you would know about the command structure and some

9 of the other units with whom you were fighting alongside.

10 A. I don't know anything about that.

11 Q. The fact is, isn't it, that everything -- every Serb in Bratunac

12 Municipality was mobilised at the start of the war?

13 A. I don't know that either. Probably that is so. Someone was

14 forcing someone, but I don't know anything about that.

15 Q. You're saying it's probably right that all Serbs in Bratunac

16 Municipality were mobilised to fight in the war?

17 A. I don't know nothing about that.

18 MR. JONES: I have another exhibit, which will be D4.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Before we give it a number, Ms. Sellers or your

20 case manager, are we sure that this is not also a Prosecution exhibit?

21 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, we'll have to check the ERN numbers to

22 confirm.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. But please check. In the meantime, this

24 would be given D4, no? D4. But if it is also a Prosecution document, we

25 need to register that.

Page 765

1 Go ahead, Mr. Jones.

2 MR. JONES:

3 Q. Would you have a look at that document, Mr. Djuric. That's an

4 order for a general mobilisation, the Serbian Municipality of Bratunac.

5 And it appears to be mobilising citizens -- all citizens who have come of

6 age. Now, seeing that, does that help you with the question of whether

7 everyone was mobilised?

8 A. I don't know anything about that.

9 Q. Well, were you mobilised, or did you volunteer to be in the

10 Jezestica detachment?

11 A. According to these papers, I did not report anywhere, I did not

12 go anywhere. I don't know what it states in these papers. I don't know.

13 Q. That wasn't my question. My question was, when you joined

14 Jezestica 1 Ceta, did you volunteer, or were you mobilised?

15 A. If we joined, then we were mobilised. There can be nothing else.

16 If we joined, as it states in these papers, then we were mobilised.

17 Q. Are you only willing to admit anything which is in the papers,

18 Mr. Djuric?

19 A. And I know that when I came, when I was wounded, when I came to

20 look for my -- when I came back, then I was chased away by the police.

21 MR. JONES: We have a couple more Defence exhibits just dealing

22 with the units in this area. The first one will be D5. For us it was

23 provisionally marked D11. We may as well do three at once. Then there

24 was D12 and D13, so that will be D5, D6, and D7. Just do them one at a

25 time.

Page 766

1 Q. The first one which you're looking at should be the list of the

2 people in the Territorial Defence in Donji Magasici, which is near your

3 village. You are no doubt familiar with many of the names there. Could

4 it be that there were as many as 48 soldiers in the Donji Magasici

5 Territorial Defence?

6 A. I don't know. I'm not familiar with that.

7

8 MR. JONES: Then we have another -- the next exhibit, which is --

9 it was D12. It will be D6.

10 Q. Here we have the Territorial Defence conscripts in Jezestica,

11 August 1992. Again, I would ask you: Is that you, number 4, Dragan

12 Djuric?

13 A. I don't know if this is my name or somebody else's name. It does

14 say "Dragan Djuric."

15 Q. We have the first vod, second vod, and then Kajici on the next

16 page. I think you told us that Kajici is part of Jezestica. Then we

17 have another 21 people. Would that be right, that there were as many as

18 21 soldiers just in Kajici?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Yes. And we see some of the other places which we referred to

21 earlier in your testimony, Brane; Mandici, 58 soldiers; Popovici;

22 Ocenovici. These are all in Kravica community, aren't they? There are

23 tens if not hundreds of soldiers in your community. Are you saying

24 that's something which you were not aware of when your village was

25 attacked in August 1992?

Page 767

1 A. I don't know who was where. I don't know which soldiers were

2 stationed where. It's something that I did not know.

3 Q. Well, I'm not asking you whether you knew where everyone was

4 stationed. What I'm asking you comes down to this: You're surely aware

5 when your village was attacked in August 1992 that there weren't 10 or 20

6 soldiers in the area, but hundreds of persons mobilised into the Bosnian

7 Serb Army and the Territorial Defence who were fighting in that area?

8 That's surely something which didn't escape your notice.

9 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not understand the answer

10 of the witness.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Can you please repeat your answer because the

12 interpreters didn't hear it.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said I did not hear that very

14 well. I didn't understand the question properly.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: So Mr. Jones, could I kindly ask you to repeat it,

16 please. Thank you.

17 MR. JONES: Perhaps I might rephrase it.

18 Q. There was a massive Bosnian Serb military presence in this area

19 at this time, was there not?

20 A. In our village at the time, there was not. During the attack.

21 Perhaps after the attack, this was true. But as far as I know, there was

22 no such presence in our village when I was there.

23 Q. Before August 1992, there were nonstop battles, were there not,

24 between people from Jezestica and people from Glogova, elsewhere, who had

25 taken refuge in Bijeceva and Pale and in the woods? There was nonstop

Page 768

1 conflict before that, wasn't there, before the 8th of August?

2 A. I don't know when this happened. I don't know what date this

3 was.

4 Q. You don't know the date, but you're aware that that was

5 happening? People from Glogova were in constant struggle with the people

6 from Jezestica and Kravica?

7 A. It did happen. Not from Jezestica. I didn't go anywhere from

8 Jezestica, and I had no business being in Glogova. I don't know about

9 other places, though.

10 Q. You agree that the people from Kravica were continually attacking

11 or fighting with the Muslims from Glogova right there in your area at

12 this time?

13 A. I don't know that.

14 MR. JONES: The next Defence exhibit, which was D13 which will be

15 D7.

16 Your Honour, this morning when I was going through, obviously

17 rather painfully for you, the list of hamlets and villages, it was

18 because those appear in this list, if that wasn't clear at the time.

19 Q. These lists show, do they not, all the units and soldiers who

20 were in all the places in the Kravica community that you mentioned

21 earlier, Kravica; Donji Bacici, there was an artillery group; Mandici;

22 Brezanci; Dolovi. I've made an approximate calculation that there must

23 have been some 600 soldiers in the Kravica community. Now, is it really

24 your evidence there's nothing more than a few Territorial Defence

25 soldiers defending your area?

Page 769

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Page 770

1 A. I don't know that. I'm not aware of that. I don't know.

2 Q. We'll move to a new topic. You mentioned earlier, I think, that

3 you went to school --

4 JUDGE AGIUS: If you are moving into something else, we stop now.

5 MR. JONES: I'm obliged, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: It's up to you. If you have got a short series of

7 questions, yes, we can go ahead. But it's up to you.

8 MR. JONES: I'll be another 15 minutes, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no, we need to have a break.

10 So do I take it there is no opposition on the part of the

11 Prosecution for these Defence exhibits?

12 MS. SELLERS: No, Your Honour. The Prosecution will briefly

13 allow him to continue, we'll just take note of how we will proceed in the

14 future.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: So we'll have a break of 25 minutes. Basically,

16 that means we'll resume at 5 minutes to 1.00. Thank you.

17 --- Recess taken at 12.31 p.m.

18 --- On resuming at 12.58 p.m.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, you may proceed.

20 MR. JONES: Thank you, Your Honour.

21 Q. Mr. Djuric, I'm moving now to the events of 8th August 1992, the

22 action in your village. Now, you told us that that started at 11.30 a.m.

23 roughly. Is that right?

24 A. It's around that time. I did not have a watch on my hand, but

25 around that time.

Page 771

1 Q. Around the middle of the day?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. You also told us, I think, that it was a surprise attack? That

4 there was nothing -- you had nothing before then?

5 A. That's the way I remember it. For example, I know that in my

6 village, a man was wounded before this attack. He was working in the

7 field, and he was wounded. That's the thing I remember. Jovo

8 Mladenovic, the late Jovo Mladenovic.

9 Q. Right. It's right, isn't it, that there was shooting going on

10 all morning and this wasn't the first sounds of attack which you heard

11 that day?

12 A. As far as I know, there was no shooting that morning.

13 Q. It's a strange time for a surprise attack, isn't it, in the

14 middle of the day when everyone's going about their business? Aren't

15 surprise attacks normally at dawn?

16 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeated his answer.

17 MR. JONES:

18 Q. Please repeat your answer and speak up.

19 A. I know that it was at that time. But when attacks actually take

20 place, generally speaking, I don't know. I know when our village was

21 attacked on the 8th of August: around 11.30.

22 Q. What I'm putting to you, to make myself clear, was that in fact

23 before 11.30 when your village came under attack, there was, in fact,

24 intensive fighting, shooting, shelling in the whole area and that's

25 something you would have heard. And my question to you is, isn't that

Page 772

1 something that was happening on that day?

2 A. I don't think there was anything before that on that day, as far

3 as I can remember.

4 Q. It's right, isn't it, that there was fierce resistance in your

5 village from your soldiers against the Muslim forces?

6 A. I don't understand that either. I know that there was no

7 resistance. I wasn't putting up any resistance or anything. I don't

8 know about the other side.

9 Q. Well, you told us that the attack lasted about two hours. That's

10 right, isn't it?

11 A. Well, the village was burned down, and people were killed within

12 those two hours, in that period.

13 Q. Your evidence was that the attack lasted two hours. That's

14 right. My question is why would it take two hours if there was no

15 resistance?

16 A. Shooting was heard for about two hours. Can you understand that?

17 The shooting around the village. Perhaps an hour and a half or two.

18 That's as long as the shooting went on, shooting at people, the houses,

19 the village.

20 Q. The fact is, isn't it, that you fled at the beginning, so you

21 weren't there and you didn't see what was going on?

22 A. Well, yes, I've already said that. I saw people approaching

23 houses, setting them on fire. So I had to leave my house and seek

24 shelter.

25 Q. Well, is that right? Are you saying now that you saw -- saw

Page 773

1 people with your own eyes setting fire to houses?

2 A. People walked up to houses, and smoke could be seen from the

3 houses. That meant that they were torching the houses and the houses

4 were on fire.

5 Q. Do you recall making a statement in 2001 about these events, in

6 Milici?

7 A. Well, I do recall that I gave a statement.

8 Q. When you gave that statement, you were told, were you not, that

9 you were requested to make a truthful statement of what you personally

10 eyewitnessed? You signed that statement with a declaration that it was

11 true to the best of your knowledge and recollection.

12 MR. JONES: Perhaps the witness could be shown a copy of his

13 statement.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. This --

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I can remember --

16 JUDGE AGIUS: The statement that the -- Mr. Jones is referring

17 to, I have got the English copy of it. It's 02062554. But I can't give

18 you the corresponding ERN number for the Serbo-Croat.

19 MR. JONES: Your Honour, perhaps we can approach it this way. I

20 won't put the statement before the witness. I'll read something which is

21 in my copy and see if he agrees with the statement.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, put it to him.

23 MR. JONES: Right.

24 Q. I put it to you that in that statement you said firstly "I wasn't

25 aware who had been killed or what houses had been set on fire until the

Page 774

1 Muslims withdraw from the village," firstly. Secondly, you said: "I'm

2 unable to say who attacked the village as I did not witness any of the

3 attackers." That's what you said, is it not, when you were asked about

4 these events in 2001? You didn't witness the attackers; you were told

5 afterwards.

6 A. Well, you know what, I know about this. I was there. Now, I

7 don't know whether these two match, you see. I mean, I was in my

8 village. I mean, I saw houses on fire. I saw people fleeing from

9 houses, leaving their houses as I had to.

10 Q. Okay. Well --

11 A. I see these people --

12 Q. Did you see these people, or were you told afterwards by these

13 women who you referred to earlier? Were you told by them about what

14 happened?

15 A. I saw men, and I saw women, the women that are mentioned here,

16 the two women.

17 Q. I won't pursue that. You mentioned that there was shelling,

18 shells landing, in the village. That's right, isn't it?

19 A. Yes, that's right. This house next to ours was hit by some kind

20 of device, so the electric cable was hit. It was hit by some kind of

21 device. Was this a shell or whatever, something fell there and exploded

22 and hit the house therefore.

23 Q. This was at the same time that you say the attackers, the locals

24 from your neighbouring villages, were moving among the houses and doing

25 what you say you saw them doing. It was at the same time? Muslim locals

Page 775

1 in your village moving among the houses, and a shell landing at the same

2 time. Is that what you saw?

3 A. No, no. This was at the beginning. First this house of ours was

4 targeted, and that's when I heard the detonation. And then the shooting

5 started -- coming from these weapons, I mean. So it was the house that

6 was targeted first. My house, I mean, where we were. It fell by the

7 house.

8 Q. Your evidence was that there were soldiers who attacked your

9 village in a surprise attack. And if it was a surprise attack by

10 soldiers, then surely a detonation couldn't have happened first.

11 A. Well, there were detonations, and then some kind of soldiers

12 going from house to house and killing people. Nine people were killed in

13 my village from my neighbourhood, members of my family.

14 Q. If you would answer the questions which I'm asking and not

15 volunteer answers on subjects which haven't been touched upon.

16 Now, my suggestion to you is that shells which fell on your

17 village were not fired by Muslims, but were part of a Serb counterattack.

18 Do you follow that? That is my suggestion, and is it something which you

19 would agree with?

20 A. That's not correct. These were projectiles that were fired from

21 the woods at our village. That's where they were stationed. That's

22 where they came to. And they approached from several different sides.

23 They came there, and that's what they did, as far as I know.

24 Q. As far as you know. And you told us this morning, did you not,

25 that you fled your village, fled for your life, in the first moments of

Page 776

1 the attack. And now you're telling us that you were able to see exactly

2 where a projectile came from. That's surely entirely contradictory, is

3 it not?

4 A. Well, this was during the first moments, these projectiles. And

5 then I had to leave the house. Of course, when a person is afraid, he

6 has to leave his house. And if I was not hit the first time, I could

7 have been hit the second time, so then I had to leave my house.

8 Q. Exactly. So you fled rapidly from the scene, and therefore

9 didn't have much of an opportunity to see any of what passed after you

10 fled. It has to be right, doesn't it?

11 A. Well, I went through the village. So there were different

12 directions involved, and all of this could be seen. Some things could be

13 seen. My house, when I got about two or three hundred metres away, I saw

14 that it was set on fire. And the house next to my house was also on

15 fire.

16 Q. You didn't see who did it because you didn't see the attackers?

17 A. We saw people coming from those sides where there were none of

18 our people. They were walking up to houses, shooting at the houses in

19 the village, shooting at people from the village.

20 Q. And you saw this all as you were running away from the village;

21 over your shoulder, I suppose?

22 A. Well, a person has to seek shelter, go through the village. You

23 had to go through the village.

24 Q. You said in your earlier statement today it was only when you

25 returned you actually saw the damage which had been done to the houses;

Page 777

1 you didn't see it at the time.

2 A. Well, I could not see at that moment, as I was leaving the house,

3 I mean, as I was fleeing.

4 Q. Precisely. Precisely, Mr. Djuric.

5 Now, the houses which you came back and which had been damaged by

6 fire were mostly wooden houses in that part of the village?

7 A. Well, they were made of hard material, too, in my village. It

8 depended on each person's possibilities and what they could afford.

9 Q. It's a feature of the houses in Jezestica, isn't it, that the

10 ones on the hill are mostly made of wood?

11 A. No. It was easier to use that kind of material when there were

12 no roads. But once the roads came there, then it became easier to build

13 houses out of hard materials like concrete blocks and bricks and other

14 construction materials, depending on what people liked and what people

15 could afford. But it depended on whether the material used was the older

16 type or the more recent type for building roofs and for beams and things

17 like that.

18 Q. I'll read you what you said in your prior statement. You said:

19 "In the village, 60 houses were set on fire. A significant part

20 of those houses were made out of wood, so it was very easy to start a

21 fire internally in the house. The houses were ablaze for a period of

22 four or five house. Nobody could deter the progress or the rapid burn of

23 the houses."

24 Now, you know this village very well, Mr. Djuric. Do you want to

25 give us an honest answer as to whether those houses were of wood or

Page 778

1 whether they weren't? Were you lying in your 2003 statement, 2001, or

2 are you lying now?

3 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I would ask Counsel to please let the

4 witness answer the question.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Ms. Sellers is right.

6 Mr. Djuric, could you please give us an answer. Which version is

7 the correct one?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, you see, it all depended on

9 one's possibilities, on what a person could afford. The older houses

10 were not built of wood only. Still they used bricks, and then these

11 beams were made, and -- these were the old-type houses. But then there

12 were new-type houses where concrete slabs were used and bricks and so on.

13 So there were both types of houses. And people lived in these houses,

14 and they had nowhere else to live.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Again, you have not answered the question. The

16 question that was put to you is a very simple one, sir. It was put to

17 you that when you were interviewed by the Office of the Prosecution way

18 back in I think December of 2003 --

19 MR. JONES: 2001.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: 2001, yeah. No, the date of the interview is 11

21 December 2003.

22 MR. JONES: Your Honour, I was referring to the other one.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: We have it even here. Paragraph 12 of that

24 statement reads: "In the village, 60 houses were set on fire. I know

25 the families and can name the owners of those homes. The significant

Page 779

1 part of those houses was made out of wood, so it was very easily to start

2 a fire internally in the house. The houses were ablaze for a period of

3 four to five hours."

4 And then in the second statement, you say more or less the same

5 thing, unless it was copied: "In the village, 60 houses were set on

6 fire. I know the families and name the owners of those homes. The

7 significant part of those houses was made of wood, so it was very easy

8 -- easily," again, it is said there, "to start a fire internally in the

9 house."

10 So the question is when you stated to the officer from the Office

11 of the Prosecution that the significant part of those 60 houses were set

12 on fire were made of wood, were you saying something correct or something

13 which now you say is not correct?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, you know what? I don't know

15 how they understood this. Well, made of wood. Sir, I don't know whether

16 you had the opportunity of seeing this. The ground floor was made of

17 stone, and then after that, bricks were used. And then wooden beams, and

18 then there was mortar, and this is what our houses look like.

19 But then there were these newer houses, too, you see, made of

20 these other materials, sand, concrete blocks, et cetera. I know what my

21 house was like, too. And then we adjust -- then we made some adjustments

22 and we did some additional construction.

23 MR. JONES: Yes, I'll --

24 JUDGE AGIUS: I won't stop you pursuing this if you want to, but

25 it's up to you.

Page 780

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Page 781

1 MR. JONES:

2 Q. Just a question about the extent of the damage. When you

3 returned and saw the damage to the village, you said you still had a

4 cellar, so your house obviously wasn't completely destroyed. Is it your

5 evidence that all 60 houses were completely destroyed or that some were

6 partially damaged to different degrees? What precisely are you able to

7 tell us on that?

8 A. Well, it all depended on the house involved, what material was

9 made of. My house was on fire then at that moment. The upper storey was

10 burning, and attic was burning and --

11 Q. I'll put it much more simply. 60 houses, obviously they weren't

12 destroyed all to the same extent, were they?

13 A. In these few hamlets, there were about 60 houses. I can give you

14 the names of the owners of these houses.

15 Q. The question is simply this: The ones that were damaged were

16 damaged to different extents, weren't they? You mentioned your roof had

17 caught fire; maybe others suffered more or less damage. My question is

18 wasn't there different degrees of damage to the different houses?

19 A. Well, different, yes. It's not that a slab of concrete can burn

20 the way a wooden beam can burn or a wooden post. But it is true that

21 people could not go on living in houses like that. The people who lived

22 in these houses before.

23 Q. I want to ask you about the objects which were -- went missing

24 from your village after the attack. You said that you lost your cows,

25 but that you got your pigs back. Is that right?

Page 782

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. As far as the cows are concerned, you have no idea, do you,

3 whether they were actually stolen or whether they got free during the

4 attack and went off on their own?

5 A. I know that they weren't where they had been left.

6 Q. Now, after the 8th of August 1992, did you stay in the army?

7 A. I stayed in my village, in that village. I'm telling you that.

8 The place where my wife's house is, the house that had not burned down.

9 That's what I was telling you. That's where I stayed, in her house.

10 Q. My question is did you remain a soldier after the 8th of August

11 attack?

12 A. How can a person say that? If somebody is a soldier, then he's a

13 soldier, whereas I stayed in the village.

14 MR. JONES: We have another Defence exhibit. It will be D8. It

15 was 14 on our list.

16 Q. This is dated November 1992. I'll ask you to turn to the third

17 page in the Serbian version. There we see number 295, Djuric, Cedo, son

18 of Cedo. My apologies, yes, Dragan. And this is, is it not, the 3rd

19 Infantry unit, Bratunac Brigade? You find your name there, and your

20 father's name, 295 on the third page. We can see this is November 1992,

21 after the events in your village. 295. I don't know if you see it.

22 Djuric, Cedo, Dragan.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. In fact, you were in the 3rd Infantry Unit at this time in the

25 Bratunac Brigade, weren't you? It's something you would know about,

Page 783

1 wouldn't you, if you were in that unit, isn't it?

2 A. I don't know what they call them. Do you see what I'm saying

3 about these lists? Do you understand what I'm saying?

4 Q. I understand that you're denying that you were in the army, and

5 there's a piece of paper in front of you which makes it very clear that

6 you were in the 3rd Infantry Unit. If that's your position, that you

7 weren't --

8 A. If that's what the papers say, then we were. I was in my

9 village.

10 Q. Mr. Djuric, are you able to give an honest answer without having

11 a piece of paper put in front of you to show the truth? You're here to

12 tell the truth irrespective of whether we can prove it with a piece of

13 paper. My question to you is: Were you or were you not in the 3rd

14 Infantry Unit in the Bratunac Brigade in November 1992? Paid for being

15 so, paid for official trips?

16 A. I don't remember that. What they called us, what unit and how

17 they called us, the name, I mean. I was in my village, and I'm not aware

18 of any trips or paying for some trips. I don't know anything about that

19 kind of thing.

20 Q. It doesn't matter what they called your unit. The point is that

21 you were in the Bratunac Brigade in November 1992, and you have been

22 denying it today in court. But I won't pursue it.

23 If we can move on to one further point: How long did you

24 actually remain in the Bosnian Serb Army?

25 MR. JONES: My apologies. Perhaps we need to give the exhibit a

Page 784

1 number.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: D8.

3 MR. JONES:

4 Q. Can you tell us honestly how long you remained in the Bosnian

5 Serb Army and the Bratunac Brigade?

6 A. I don't quite understand this. What do you mean how long? I

7 mean, I was not there. You mean when I came back, I had to be there

8 again? I mean, the police?

9 Q. I'll put it very simply for you. Were you in the Bratunac

10 Brigade right up until 1995? July 1995?

11 A. In Bratunac, I was.

12 Q. The Bratunac Brigade.

13 A. Ah, the Bratunac Brigade, well...

14 Q. The previous document we saw, it referred to the fact that you

15 were in the 3rd Infantry Company. Surely you're not telling us you don't

16 know what the 1st Infantry Company was, the 2nd Company, what brigade you

17 were in. Surely you were aware you were in the Bratunac Brigade.

18 A. Well, we knew that we were in Bratunac, but I don't know about

19 these companies or brigades. You see what I'm saying? I don't know what

20 they call this.

21 MR. JONES: A final Defence exhibit, which is -- one more Defence

22 exhibit which is -- it will be D9. This is from the Bratunac Brigade.

23 Q. You can see the date, 02 1995 in the original version, and then

24 February 1995 in the English. If you turn to page 2, number 137, Djuric,

25 Cedo, Dragan, 2nd Infantry Detachment, you've even signed there, haven't

Page 785

1 you? I think it's right to say that your signature is easily matched

2 with that on your witness statement. In any event, you signed, did you

3 not? February 1995 as a member of the 2nd Infantry Detachment, Bratunac

4 Brigade, that's you, isn't it?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. You are going to completely deny that you were ever a soldier,

7 Mr. Djuric? I'll remind you that you are under oath, and there are

8 penalties for false testimony at this Tribunal. Were you or were you not

9 a soldier in the Bratunac Brigade?

10 A. Well, if the name is there, I had to be there. I was forced to

11 be there, if that's the Bratunac Brigade. You understand? I came there

12 when I was wounded under pressure. They made me go.

13 Q. I think finally you've admitted it. You were in the Bratunac

14 Brigade. Right?

15 A. The Bratunac Brigade, so we were there, you know.

16 Q. Just a few questions now on Kravica and the events of the 7th of

17 January 1993. It's right to say, isn't it, that at that time, several

18 months after the attack on your village, Kravica was a major Bosnian Serb

19 military stronghold attacking towards Glogova in the period running up to

20 7th of January. I put it to you that that's something which was the case

21 and you knew about it as a member of the military.

22 A. As far as that was concerned, I didn't know anything. I was in

23 my village. But I didn't have any links with anybody to know anything

24 more or in more depth about anything.

25 Q. You mentioned that this was Christmas for Orthodox Christians.

Page 786

1 It's right, isn't it, that you traditionally celebrate that by having

2 very large feasts, lots of food, cakes, meats, and that sort of thing?

3 A. Yes, that was a custom. I was at home by myself. I didn't have

4 any reason to celebrate anything. My wife wasn't there. My child wasn't

5 there. The same thing applied to all of my neighbours, that there was

6 not really that much to celebrate.

7 Q. My point is that on this day, 7th of January 1993, the Serbs in

8 the Kravica community were preparing feasts, preparing a very large

9 quantity of food to have that day, weren't they, as is their custom? You

10 can answer that with a simple yes, no, or I don't know.

11 A. You know how it is. I know that in every household, that day was

12 marked. Those who had something to make, bake or roast, they would do

13 that. Guests would not be going anywhere as --

14 Q. [Previous interpretation continues]....

15 A. -- it would not be some -- those who could, they could go. I

16 mean, it could be like a sort of celebratory lunch or dinner in

17 somebody's house.

18 Q. The reason I'm asking that question, Mr. Djuric, is that it's

19 right, isn't it, that at that time the Serbs in Jezestica and Kravica eat

20 a large amount of food at the time when the Muslims nearby whom you

21 mentioned shooting at you in the forests were starving. I put it to you

22 that that was something you knew at the time.

23 A. I don't know who had what quantities of food. I know about my

24 own house, for example, but I don't know about the other people, what

25 they had.

Page 787

1 Q. You are not aware that throughout this whole period the people

2 from Glogova and elsewhere were trying to get food because they didn't

3 have any, because they were cut off from food. That's something you say

4 you don't know about? If you don't know, you don't know.

5 A. I didn't know that.

6 Q. Now, let's turn to --

7 A. That people didn't have any food.

8 Q. Let's turn to Kravica now on the 7th of January. You've referred

9 to men in white who you saw among the houses. You mentioned that you saw

10 smoke. On that occasion, you didn't actually make an assessment of the

11 amount of damage which was done, did you?

12 A. No. I only saw that in my own village. I couldn't see that in

13 Kravica. The people in white and the smoke was in my village before I

14 went to Kravica.

15 Q. You mentioned that the men in white who you saw in Kravica also

16 shot at you, shot at you from the hills, and that these were local --

17 locals from neighbouring Muslim villages. Is that right?

18 A. This was in Jezestica, not in Kravica, as far as I remember. It

19 was in Jezestica, in my village, and not in Kravica as far as I remember.

20 Q. They were locals from neighbouring villages?

21 A. They were our neighbours from neighbouring villages, Muslims.

22 Q. Did you also see a very large number of civilians moving among

23 the men who you've described as being in white?

24 A. I did not notice that. At the point in time when I was leaving

25 my village and when I was wounded, all I saw were these men in white. I

Page 788

1 didn't see if there were any other people amongst them, and I wasn't able

2 to see who was coming in from each side, because, like I said, they were

3 coming or approaching the village from different sides.

4 Q. You didn't see thousands of civilians, men, women, children,

5 women in demija, as I believe they're called, moving among the soldiers

6 or the men in white among the houses? That's something you say you

7 didn't see?

8 A. I was not in a position to see something like that with my own

9 eyes.

10 Q. And you told us how you were wounded. Are you telling us that

11 you were a civilian on that occasion when you were wounded? You weren't

12 actually in combat?

13 A. I was withdrawing from my own village. I was going towards

14 Kravica.

15 MR. JONES: I have one more Defence exhibit, which will be D9.

16 Sorry, D10.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: D10 it will be.

18 MR. JONES:

19 Q. I will ask you just to look on the first page. And we have a

20 translation: "List of wounded, 7 January 1993." If we look down to

21 number 14, it has been crossed out and says 11, "Dragan, son of Cedo,

22 Djuric. Born 1963, 3rd Infantry Batallion, wounded in Kajici."

23 This shows, does it not, that when you were wounded you were

24 wounded as a soldier serving in the 3rd Infantry Battalion?

25 A. If it was the military, then that's a soldier, you understand.

Page 789

1 Q. You had a weapon with you --

2 JUDGE AGIUS: I just wonder why have you been beating around the

3 bush trying to evade answering questions that are related or trying to

4 prove that you were a member of the armed forces of Republika Srpska or

5 the Bosnian Serb Army? What are you afraid of? Other Serbs who were in

6 that army are probably proud to have been in that army. Why are you so

7 reticent? Why are you not even trying to admit that you were part of

8 that army? What are you ashamed of or afraid of?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, you know how it is. We were

10 in our village. I don't know. If it was the Serbian Army or the Army of

11 the Republika Srpska, then that's that.

12 MR. JONES: I have no further questions, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

14 Is there re-examination, Ms. Sellers.

15 MS. SELLERS: No, there isn't, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you have any questions? Yes, go ahead.

17 Questioned by the Court:

18 JUDGE BRYDENSHOLT: Well, I would like the witness to tell me

19 what kind of weapon did you have in your -- you personally -- have in

20 your possession in your village? You told me that some of the villagers

21 had hunting rifles and some had pistols, as far as I remember. What did

22 you have.

23 A. I didn't have any weapons at that time. Some weapons were being

24 given out, but I don't know, you understand.

25 JUDGE BRYDENSHOLT: No, I don't quite. What do you mean by

Page 790

1 "weapons were given out"? Does that mean that every male member of this

2 small village, society, did have weapons given to them? What do you mean

3 by "given out"?

4 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the answer of the

5 witness.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, could you answer the -- repeat your answer,

7 please. Thank you.

8 A. As far as I recall, if some people had weapons or if they did not

9 have weapons, well, I cannot recall everything.

10 JUDGE BRYDENSHOLT: When you were a member, as tested here, or

11 registered as a member of this group, armed group, were you given any

12 uniform of any kind?

13 A. There was no uniform. Perhaps some people had uniforms. But

14 later, they received uniforms. At the beginning, there were no uniforms.

15 I personally at that time didn't have a uniform.

16 JUDGE BRYDENSHOLT: When did you get a uniform, then?

17 A. We only got them later when I -- I personally got one when I came

18 and when I was picked up again in 1993, sometime in October. Perhaps it

19 was at that time. Maybe it was a little later. I don't remember. As

20 far as I'm concerned.

21 JUDGE BRYDENSHOLT: This unit in the village, we have seen all

22 the names you say, a great number of names of male inhabitants in your

23 village, did you have any kind of training together during that period?

24 That means from July, August, and up to January 1993.

25 A. As far as I remember, I did not go to any training then.

Page 791

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Page 792

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Judge Eser.

2 JUDGE ESER: I have a question to the Prosecution with regard to

3 the issue of hearsay evidence. We have heard from the witness that he

4 spoke to Stanica and Perka Djuric. Another question is have these two

5 persons he was reporting on also been questioned by the Prosecution.

6 MS. SELLERS: No, Your Honour, they have not been questioned by

7 the Prosecution.

8 JUDGE ESER: And why not, if they would have been able to give

9 direct evidence?

10 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I'm unaware of that. I will check and

11 get back to you.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

13 That brings your testimony to an end, Mr. Djuric. I thank you

14 for having come over to give evidence, and I hope we will not need to see

15 you again. You will now be escorted by the usher. And should you need

16 any assistance to enable you to return to your country, I'm sure that you

17 will find it available. Have a safe journey back home.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if I may be allowed to

19 say something.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because -- well, I just want to say

22 that in my village, nine people were killed on the 8th of August, nine

23 people, including men and women. There were also people who were

24 wounded. And on the 7th of January, 18 people were killed on the 7th of

25 January from my village. These were people who were killed in my

Page 793

1 village. And I can give you their names. For example, for the 8th of

2 August and for the 7th of January.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: We have their names already. We have their names.

4 Do you have anything else to state?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Usher, please could you escort the witness.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

8 [The witness withdrew]

9 JUDGE AGIUS: So I suppose we meet again tomorrow morning at 9.00

10 with the same witness -- try to -- not the same -- with another witness.

11 It's going to haunt me between now and tomorrow. We'll have the next

12 witness.

13 And try, please, to make sure that if you are going to make use

14 of particular documents that you already have in mind, to make the

15 Prosecution aware of that so they will be prepared. Same applies to you.

16 Please let us know beforehand what documents you may - because this is

17 always may - use in the course of your testimony. All right. Thank you.

18 Again once more, I wish to thank everyone because we have gone

19 beyond our time again. Thanks. And we'll meet tomorrow morning at 9.00.

20 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.49 p.m.,

21 to be reconvened on Friday, the 15th day of

22 October, at, 2004 9.00 a.m.

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