1 Wednesday, 20 October 2004
2 [Open session]
3 --- Upon commencing at 9.10 a.m.
4 [The accused entered court]
5 JUDGE AGIUS: [B/C/S interpretation heard on English channel]
6 We're making a lot of decisions this morning and that's why we are
7 starting a few minutes late.
8 [Technical difficulty]
9 Mr. Registrar, could you call the case, please. I am receiving
10 interpretation in English on number four. I'm not receiving
11 interpretation in --
12 THE REGISTRAR: The interpreters are requested to switch channels,
14 THE INTERPRETER: Can you hear the English interpretation,
15 Your Honour?
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Now we heard you speak in English. It is on channel
17 4 -- at least mine is on channel 4. Well, I'm going to say something else
18 and I'm not receiving any interpretation, so basically that means that it
19 should be solved. We'll see.
20 Mr. Registrar, could you call the case, please.
21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Case Number IT-03-68-T, the
22 Prosecutor versus Naser Oric.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you and good morning to you.
24 Mr. Oric, can you follow the proceedings in a language that you
25 can understand?
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour, ladies
2 and gentlemen. Yes, I can follow on a language I understand.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. Good morning to you, and you may sit
4 down. Thank you.
5 Appearances for the Prosecution.
6 MR. WUBBEN: Good morning, Your Honours. My name is Jan Wubben,
7 senior trial attorney, lead counsel for the Prosecution, together with
8 co-counsels, Ms. Patricia Sellers and Mr. Gramsci Di Fazio, and
9 Ms. Donnica Henry-Frijlink is our case manager.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you Mr. Wubben, and good morning to you and
11 your team.
12 Appearances for the Accused Oric.
13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour. My name
14 is Vasvija Vidovic together with Mr. John Jones I appear for Mr. Naser
15 Oric. With us are our legal assistant, Ms. Jasmina Cosic and our CaseMap
16 manager, Mr. Geoff Roberts. I wish to inform my learned friends that Mr.
17 Geoff Roberts will be authorised to correspond with them as well as with
18 representatives of Chambers and registry.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Wubben.
20 MR. WUBBEN: I thank my learned friend for this confirmation. We
21 consider that we can use this contact with Mr. Geoff Roberts to address
22 the whole Defence team in that regard.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Before we bring in the witness, after
24 we closed last Friday, I wasn't really expecting this but my attention was
25 drawn to the fact that I did not give instructions to the Prosecution in
1 particular, and for that matter to the accused that no communications were
2 to take place between Prosecution and -- not the accused, - sorry- the
3 witness, and between the witness and others in relation to his testimony.
4 My impression and my brief and also of my two colleagues is that this is a
5 rule which is applied without any exception here in this Tribunal and that
6 everyone is aware of it, but once the matter has arisen we are going to
7 pronounce ourselves on it to make things clear, abundantly clear, for the
8 purpose of this trial at least. The Trial Chamber as composed, that's
9 myself, Judge Brydensholt, and Judge Eser, we are seeking to clarify the
10 position of the Trial Chamber regarding the issue of communications
11 between the parties and the witnesses. The Trial Chamber notes that this
12 oral ruling in no way indicates that any of the parties has acted
13 improperly, but rather views this order as a reminder to the parties of a
14 well-established practice applied by this Tribunal across the various
15 Trial Chambers, and respective of the legal tradition the various Judges
16 come from.
17 We note that indeed there is nothing in the Statute or in the
18 Rules of Procedure and Evidence of the Tribunal which expressly addresses
19 this subject, but again that would have been almost something that
20 would -- one would not really expect in the statute for sure and in the
21 regulations also, because it's a matter of principle that is applied
22 universally. We note, however, that a witness either for the Prosecution
23 or for the Defence, once he or she has taken the solemn declaration
24 pursuant to Rule 90(A) of our rules, that witness becomes a witness of
25 truth before this Tribunal and is no longer merely a witness for either of
1 the two parties, depending on who has produced him or her. We further
2 note that Rule 90(F) of the Rules of Procedure and Evidence, according to
3 which the Trial Chamber shall exercise control over the mode and order of
4 interrogating witnesses and presenting evidence so as to make the
5 interrogation and presentation effective for the ascertainment of the
6 truth has a bearing on this matter in that it imposes on the Trial Chamber
7 a measure of control. The Trial Chamber considers that allowing either
8 party to communicate with a witness after that witness has commenced
9 giving evidence orally may lead to both parties -- to both party and --
10 both party producing that witness and witness discussing the contents of
11 his or her testimony in a way that is not consonant with the Rules of
12 Procedure and Evidence and the Statute of this Tribunal. Since it may,
13 albeit, and we consider sometimes innocently and unwittingly, influence
14 the witness's further testimony. The Trial Chamber therefore orders that
15 once a witness either for the Prosecution or for the Defence has made the
16 solemn declaration pursuant to Rule 90(A) of the Rules of Procedure and
17 Evidence of this Tribunal and commenced giving evidence -- giving oral
18 evidence, neither the Prosecution nor the Defence can or may communicate
19 with that witness on the subject of the contents of his or her testimony,
20 except with the special leave of the Trial Chamber.
21 We further order that in the event that a witness wishes to
22 contact the party that called him or her, he or she must first inform the
23 competent staff of the Victims and Witnesses Section, which in turn shall
24 refer the matter to the Trial Chamber. In addition, the Trial Chamber
25 notes that the obligation bore by a witness to refrain from discussing the
1 contents of his or her ongoing testimony also extends to the public and
2 lasts until his or her testimony comes to an end. We finally request that
3 a copy of this oral decision will be communicated to the Victims and
4 Witnesses Unit, Mr. Registrar, with specific instructions, with specific
5 instructions, to that unit to make all witnesses aware of this duty and
6 responsibility that they have. Thank you.
7 Having disposed of this, are there any preliminary matters that
8 you would like to raise before we bring in the witness and proceed with
9 his testimony. Mr. Wubben.
10 MR. WUBBEN: Your Honour, yesterday evening there was contact by
11 the Defence team towards our team informing us and updating us of the time
12 needed for -- by cross-examination of the witness of today. Defence
13 counsel may correct me if I'm wrong, but the message was that Defence need
14 the whole trial day for this cross-examination. And if that's right that
15 has also ramifications for the Victims and Witnesses Unit. So we updated
16 the Victims and Witnesses Unit with a view to scheduling of the witnesses,
17 and we are really regretting the fact that at such a late time Defence
18 counsel raised this issue of consuming or planning to consume the whole
19 day rather than a couple of hours as projected. And I appreciate that on
20 further studying it might be needed for, but it is rather late. Thank
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Unfortunately -- yes, Madam Vidovic.
23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it's not that we were
24 late in informing the Prosecution, but when you asked me last time whether
25 I would be able to finish the cross-examination today I said yes, yes I
1 will be able to complete the cross-examination today. I will of course do
2 my best to be as expeditious as possible, but I do have quite a number of
3 questions and quite a number of documents to show to the witness. And in
4 view of the fact that the Prosecution also extended their time and put
5 forward new facts not previously mentioned in the witness statements. So
6 bearing in mind that the Prosecution took more time than was planned, I
7 will have to clarify the points that were raised. I will of course try to
8 do this as speedily and as expeditiously as possible.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I thank you. But let me say one thing
10 and then we will discuss this, Judge Brydensholt and Judge Eser. There
11 may come a time, which can be pretty soon, that if we notice that you are
12 deviating from the plans that we have made as far as allocation of time
13 for the hearing of the various witnesses, we may step in and stick to the
14 time that was indicated and say: You have to finish your
15 examination-in-chief in one hour; you have to finish your
16 cross-examination in one hour. We may have to do that if you disappoint
17 us, in other words if you go beyond the time that you yourselves have
18 indicated, then we will step in, then we will step in. So any further
19 preliminary matters? I see none.
20 MR. WUBBEN: No, thank you.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Usher, could you bring the witness in, please.
22 [The witness entered court]
23 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you, sir.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: And welcome to this Tribunal once more. I hope you
2 had a good rest these last few days and that you are fresh enough to
3 resume your testimony. May I remind you that you are testifying under
4 solemn declaration, which we all heard you make last Friday. Before you
5 start giving evidence I want to make sure that you are receiving
6 interpretation of what I am telling you in a language that you can
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. And I have one question before you start
10 giving evidence. Over the weekend, since you finished giving evidence
11 last Friday, did you speak with anyone, did you talk with anyone, about
12 your testimony here?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Mrs. Monica and
14 Mrs. Marija told me.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Mrs. Monica, these are from the victims, I suppose.
16 Yeah. What did they tell you?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They told me I shouldn't meet with
18 any other witnesses or with any lawyers and that I should not talk about
19 my testimony because I am under oath, and I abided by what they said.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So then I thank you, and that's exactly
21 what you should have done and I appreciate that you are confirming that
22 that's precisely what you did. So let's proceed, yes.
23 Madam Vidovic.
24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, before I continue my
25 cross-examination, I simply wish to check whether the last exhibit, or
1 rather the last piece of evidence I wish to tender, page 43 of the book:
2 "The Bloody Christmas of the Village of Kravica" by Boro Miljanovic,
3 whether this has been given an exhibit number. That was the end of the
4 first part of my cross-examination. I wish to tender this into evidence
5 and ask that it be given a number if it hasn't already got one.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Vidovic, it has already been -- it is being
7 numbered as D12. It is being numbered as D12.
8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
9 WITNESS: MILADIN SIMIC [Resumed]
10 [Witness answered through interpreter]
11 Cross-examined by Ms. Vidovic: [Continued]
12 Q. [Interpretation] Good day, Mr. Simic. I will try to make your
13 testimony easier today. We will continue where we left off. Mr. Simic,
14 last Friday you told us a few things about Mr. Miladin Bogdanovic. You
15 told us a few things about Mr. Miladin Bogdanovic. You said that he was
16 the person who organised the first meeting of your villages in order to
17 set up a village guard. Is this correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Later you said that he gave you a piece of paper calling you to
20 join the village defence.
21 A. Yes, on the 12th of March, 1992, that's when it started.
22 Q. Very well. Thank you, Mr. Simic. Miladin Bogdanovic then in
23 other words organised you and the other men from the village of Jezestica
24 to form a village defence?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And he was quite authoritative when carrying out the organisation
2 of the village defence?
3 A. Well, I don't know whether he was or not, but he talked to us and
4 he said whoever had a house should also join the village guard.
5 Q. The reason I'm asking you this, Mr. Simic, is that you said at one
6 point he even threatened that the village guards would set fire to your
7 house if you left the village defence when you wished to do so.
8 A. Yes, that's correct.
9 Q. Does this mean that he was a violent man?
10 A. I don't know whether he was violent or not, but that's what he
11 told us.
12 Q. You also said in your testimony and also in answer to my question
13 on Friday that the defence line of the village was organised around the
14 hamlets of the village of Jezestica?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. You said to be sure that you didn't know who organised the defence
17 line, whether the SDS or somebody else. Is this correct?
18 A. It's correct that I didn't know. Had I known, I would have told
19 Their Honours.
20 Q. Mr. Miladin Bogdanovic was a member of the SDS, was he not?
21 A. I don't know that. I'm not aware of that at all.
22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Would the usher please put on the
23 ELMO document number 00835837, which is an excerpt from the list of
24 members of the SDS of Bratunac, and this is a document disclosed to the
25 Defence by the Prosecution.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Can the witness take a look at this document.
2 Q. Mr. Simic, can you see the document before you?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Look at number 663 Miladin Kostadin Bogdanovic Jezestica, born in
5 1934, and the number of his SDS admission, and also he gave a contribution
6 of 100 dinars voluntarily.
7 A. I didn't know whether he was a member of the SDS or not.
8 Q. But the personal details that I have just read out to you, do they
9 correspond to the details of Mr. Miladin Bogdanovic, the one you spoke
11 A. Yes, yes.
12 Q. You did say he was born in 1934?
13 A. Yes, that's correct.
14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I move
15 that this list of members of the SDS, page 00835837 be admitted into
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Any objection?
18 MR. DI FAZIO: No objection, if Your Honours please, but with the
19 caveat that the Prosecution doesn't accept necessarily the authenticity of
20 this document, but as to its admissibility and its weight, well, that's
21 another issue. So there's no objection.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: So this would be D13, no?
23 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, I can confirm that, Your Honours.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, please proceed, Madam Vidovic.
25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you, Your Honours.
1 Q. Mr. Simic, is it possible that Mr. Bogdanovic organised the
2 defence of the village on behalf of the SDS?
3 A. That's not clear to me. I never heard about this. All I know is
4 that he said we had to have a village guard.
5 Q. But you don't know whether he organised this on behalf of the SDS?
6 A. No. If I knew that I would say so.
7 Q. Thank you, Mr. Simic.
8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would now like to ask the usher to
9 put on the ELMO a map of the Kravica area. This is part of a larger map
10 by the Military Geographical Institute for the Zvornik region and the
11 scale is 1:10.000. This is the same map. It was published in 1971. That
12 was used by my colleague Mr. John Jones last Thursday which the Prosecutor
13 has seen, and then I wish to put a few questions to the witness about it.
14 Q. Last Friday we talked about certain villages and hamlets and we
15 talked about where the lines were. Bearing in mind the exhibit I showed
16 you last time, Mr. Simic, the line quoted on page 43 of the book: "The
17 Bloody Christmas of Kravica," and bearing in mind the description of that
18 line, I marked in orange the places mentioned in that description. I
19 would now like to ask you to look at the map and the places that I have
20 marked in orange. Do you see them?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Can you say whether this is Banovici, Banjevici, Gornja Brana,
23 Donja Brana, Bacici, Bratinci [phoen], Dolovi, Djermani, Jezestica,
24 Magasic, Jezero, Mandici, and Bandera?
25 A. This is correct. Each of these villages had its own village
1 defence around the houses, just as Jezestica did, with its hamlets. The
2 same happened in Kravica and its hamlets.
3 Q. So there was a defence in these villages and you can confirm that?
4 Is this correct?
5 A. Yes, there was a village defence.
6 Q. You said that you didn't know who established these lines. Is
7 that so?
8 A. It's correct that I don't know that. If I did know, I would tell
9 you. I said on Friday I didn't know.
10 Q. Mr. Simic, do you know that the Army of Republika Srpska was in
11 command of those lines, in command of the people manning those lines?
12 A. No, I don't know that either. I was part of the village guard on
13 the 12th of March, 1992, and I was released in March 1993. I can tell you
14 what I saw and did then. I can't tell you anything else.
15 Q. Before I move on I --
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
17 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, just -- I'm not objecting
18 so much to the question, but what I suspect may be a failure to clarify
19 issues with the witness. If Madam Vidovic is putting to the witness that
20 the Army of Republika Srpska was in control of his village defence and/or
21 other village defences in the area, then of course she should put that, if
22 that's part of her case, to the witness. It's not entirely clear from her
23 question whether or not she is suggesting that, but it seems to be
24 inherent in her question. It's a very simple matter. Just ask the
25 witness: Was the Army of Republika Srpska controlling your village guard
1 in Jezestica.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Vidovic, I think it's the case of maybe
3 putting your question again in a clearer matter. You asked the question
4 to the witness: "Do you know that the Army of Republika Srpska was on the
5 12th of March, 1992" -- sorry --
6 MR. DI FAZIO: It's the one before that.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: It's moving.
8 MR. DI FAZIO: It's the one before that.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Simic, do you know that the Army of Republika
10 Srpska was in command of those lines, in command of the people manning
11 those lines?
12 As it is, it moves up while I am reading.
13 Could you rephrase the question to reflect actually the point of
14 Mr. Di Fazio, please. Thank you.
15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this is only one in a
16 string of questions I will put in this connection, but before this I
17 wanted the map to be given a number and then I will come back to this
19 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. It will be --
20 THE REGISTRAR: D14, Your Honours.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: D14.
22 But the thing is, Madam Vidovic, is the map we are seeing on the
23 monitor cannot be exactly said that is the same thing we were given. The
24 one that we were given does not bear any highlights. So I think if you
25 are going to tender this map as an exhibit, you need to have it marked.
1 And in this case I would even suggest that since you are asking this
2 particular witness questions on a marked map, this marked map will only
3 refer to this particular witness so that we don't mix it up with other
4 witnesses. So it will be admitted as D14, but it will be marked and also
5 initialled by the witness so that we will know exactly which map he was
6 being questioned about.
7 MR. DI FAZIO: Just while we're on that topic, if Your Honours
8 please, we'll need to get the same highlights. I'm actually quite happy
9 to do that with the Defence --
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah.
11 MR. DI FAZIO: We can mark it.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: We can go along now, we can go ahead now.
13 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Then it will be marked later.
15 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: We're not going to waste time now.
17 MR. DI FAZIO: All right. Thank you.
18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. The witness has
19 confirmed that these are the places that were mentioned and that is why I
20 move that this map be admitted into evidence. I will now continue.
21 Q. Mr. Simic, I will now put the following question to you: Were you
22 aware that the lines in these villages were under the control and command
23 of the Army of Republika Srpska?
24 A. As far as I'm aware, it wasn't. I never heard or saw the Army of
25 Republika Srpska.
1 Q. Thank you.
2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Would the usher put on the ELMO a
3 part of the document: "The War History of Bratunac. The circumstances in
4 Bosnia and Herzegovina before the beginning of the war," page 00641760,
5 disclosed to us by the Prosecutor along with receipt number 14. I ask
6 that this document be shown to the witness.
7 Q. Witness, please look at the part right under number 00641760 which
8 says: In mid-April 1992, a Crisis Staff was formed in Kravica headed by
9 Nedjo Nikolic. The staff determined the defence lines in the area of
10 Kravica, from Banjevici, Donja Brana and Gornja Brana, Bacici, Jezero,
11 Mratinjaci, Gornji Dolovi, Donji Dolovi, Brezanci, Jasikovaca, Ravni
12 Buljim, Jezestica, (Jaglic, Burmani, and Vresinje), Magasic, Mjenice,
13 Radukici, Bozici, and Deronjici, across Avdagina and Mandic to Bandera.
14 The first commander of the Kravica area defence was
15 Lieutenant Colonel Marko Lukic followed by Lieutenant Brano Jovanovic,
16 Lieutenant Zoran Ostojic, and the 2nd Lieutenant Lazar Ostojic.
17 Mr. Simic, this is a description of the same line of defence we
18 have just been talking about running through the same villages and it says
19 that the first commander was lieutenant colonel Marko Lukic. Do you know
20 that this man was the first commander of the defence of the Kravica area,
21 which included your village? Did you hear about this man ever?
22 A. No, I never saw him. I never heard of him. I cooperated only
23 with Miladin Bogdanovic, and he was the one who gave us all the
24 information we got.
25 Q. Did you ever hear that Mr. Bogdanovic had any contacts with this
2 A. No, I didn't. I would say so if I had.
3 Q. Mr. Simic, you will agree that this is again a description of the
4 same defence lines that we have just been talking about and that the
5 defence of Jezestica included the hamlets of Jaglici, Djermani, Vresinje
6 and the nearby village of Magasici?
7 A. Yes, the village of Jezestica and the hamlets of Djermani,
8 Rankovici, Kijevici, these were all linked up to Magasici. I know what
9 the village guards were like in our village. I don't know about other
11 Q. I move that the front page and the part of the document I quoted
12 and showed to the witness be given an exhibit number.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. It will be given an exhibit number D15. A
14 proprio I would like to raise this matter: You stated earlier on, Madam
15 Vidovic, that this document was disclosed to you by the Prosecution. Was
16 it just these two or three pages that were disclosed or the entire book?
17 Do we have the front page of the title, the publisher, so that we will
18 have it annexed to this exhibit?
19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Unfortunately, Your Honour, the
20 Prosecutor has disclosed only one part of this document, therefore of the
21 book which is entitled: "The Circumstances Prevailing in
22 Bosnia-Herzegovina Prior to the War," but it does describe this part of
23 the event, and that was done against the receipt number 14. Your Honour,
24 during these proceedings, I will most certainly try to locate the
25 remaining part of the document.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: What we are interested in is the front page, the
2 title of the book, the publisher, the ISBN number, and the date of
3 publishing, printing, et cetera. Judge Eser would like to put a -- put a
5 JUDGE ESER: Madam Vidovic, I would like to come back to a
6 question we already posed to you last Friday. When you speak of defence
7 lines, do you mean it in terms of a line -- lines around the village only
8 or you are proposing that they are -- had been a defence line between the
9 various villages? So "defence lines" is a vague description. Was it only
10 a surrounding the villages or the line connecting different villages?
11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we are talking about
12 defence lines in this particular case armband around the villages.
13 However the area of Kravica consists of many villages. And during this
14 day and my cross-examination, you will also see that these other villages
15 have their own defence systems as well. And this will come out very
16 clearly through the cross-examination that I intend to pursue today.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, please proceed, Madam Vidovic.
18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Mr. Simic, isn't it true that when you spoke about the area that
20 you call Brdo or Brda, that you had in mind, Rankovici, Kijevici and
21 Djermani hamlets, or what is also known as Stara Jezestica. Am I right?
22 A. Yes, you're right.
23 Q. Mr. Simic, in these hamlets, too, there were defence lines. Isn't
24 that right?
25 A. Yes, village lines of defence. That's how we referred to them.
1 Q. All right. Isn't it true that on the 8th of August, 1992,
2 precisely these village lines of defence were under the attack that was
3 set up in those hamlets?
4 A. Yes. The Jezestica hamlets were attacked on the 8th of August.
5 Q. Thank you.
6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I will now refer to
7 Defence document D7, and I kindly ask the usher again to put on the ELMO
8 the map that we had just used earlier and which I think had been marked
9 D14. That's the map in fact that we had used earlier.
10 Q. I also kindly ask you to show to the witness our document D7,
11 that's the list of staff members and the logistics of the Territorial
12 Defence of Kravica, including the TO unit list in the Kravica area. Let
13 me just remind you or ask the witness just to look at the front pages of
14 the list of these members and to see whether it refers to Kravica, Donji
15 Bacici, Mandici, Brezanci, Dolovi, Siljkovici, Lazarici, Marici, Gornji
16 Bacici, Jezero, Ocenovici, Banjevici, Popovici, Mratinci, Jezestica,
17 Magasici, and Kajici. Could you please just look at this and see whether
18 these villages are listed there.
19 A. I'm not sure that what you showed me before, and I am not familiar
20 with these names --
21 Q. You are saying you are not familiar with these names?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Could you please look at the map that I showed you a little
24 earlier and see that these places were marked in yellow. For example,
25 Kravica. Could you please put the map on the ELMO. I kindly ask the
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 usher to put the map on the ELMO.
2 Mr. Simic, can you see these places better from the map. I will
3 start from the top. There is Ocenovici, Opravdici, Popovici, Bacici,
4 Donja Bacici, Kravica, Marici, Siljkovici, Lazarici, Lipenovici, also
5 Jezestica, Dolovici, Siljkovici. Can you please look at the map and these
6 where these villages are?
7 A. Yes, I can see them.
8 Q. Mr. Simic, I'll put you a simple question with regard to this.
9 Are all these Serbian villages rather populated by the Serbs. Is that
11 A. Yes, it is.
12 Q. Is it correct and true that the people from these villages were
13 involved in the defence of this area?
14 A. It is possible. I don't know the names of those men that I saw.
15 I know the men from Jezestica, and the others I only knew by sight.
16 Q. Mr. Simic, last Friday you told us that you had not been involved
17 as a conscript in the Jezestica II Company.
18 A. No, I was included near Jezestica on the 20th of March, 1992. It
19 is not correct that I wasn't involved. I was involved is what we called
20 village guards, but I never saw a list according to which I was paid any
22 Q. We'll come to that later, Mr. Simic. What you in fact ascertained
23 was that you were only a member of the village guard. Is that correct?
24 A. Yes, that's correct.
25 Q. Thank you. And I apologise.
1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I now kindly ask the
2 usher to put the ELMO -- again the Defence exhibit D7 showing members of
3 the staff of logistics of Jezestica, and I would draw the attention of the
4 witness and the Chamber and the Prosecution to page 01320326. Could the
5 witness please look at this page of the document.
6 Q. Mr. Simic, can you see it? Yes, we have it on the ELMO.
7 A. Yes, yes.
8 Q. Isn't it true, Mr. Simic, that in this document, for example, for
9 the village Donji Bacici, the village guard was listed completely
10 separately from other conscripts from this village?
11 A. It's not clear to me. I had no idea whether it was related to the
12 conscripts or whether it was an independent village guard.
13 Q. Can you see that it's written on the document: Village guard, and
14 there are the names there?
15 A. I don't know them. Perhaps I knew them by sight from before.
16 MR. DI FAZIO: Your Honours, please. I'm not objecting, but I'm
17 just not following this evidence. Could Madam Vidovic tell me where it
18 says the word "conscripts" or there's some separation of village guard
19 from conscripts, other conscripts. I've got page 326 and I see -- and I
20 refer back to the English translation, it says Donji Bacici, and then
21 village patrol was crossed out, and then gunners. So I don't see anything
22 about conscripts or -- a lot of the matters that were inherent in the
23 questioning, I'm just trying to follow, that's all.
24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. I will explain this in very
25 simple terms. Our document D7 is entitled: "The list of members of the
1 staff and the logistics system of Kravica." And that refers to the
2 Territorial Defence of Kravica. And then on the page that I just
3 mentioned we have a list of the members of the Territorial Defence which
4 are soldiers, and below that we have a village guard as a specific
5 category. And I just saw now that in the English version, and it says:
6 Village patrol. It is correct that it has been crossed out but I was
7 quoting and citing the original of the document. And in the course of the
8 proceedings we shall see why that was the case.
9 Your Honours, may I --
10 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Madam Vidovic, because I think we need
11 to make this clear.
12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Therefore, this document begins with
13 number 01320325 and it refers to the list of the Kravica staff and
14 Territorial Defence followed by a series of units. I drew your attention
15 to the document 01320326, which is an integral part of these seven. And
16 after the list of the members of the staff and units of Donji Bacici, you
17 can see a list of a few names under the heading of: Village guard.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: It's also crossed, both in the original and in the
19 English translation. I mean --
20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. Because the original
21 document is such and we shall see from other forthcoming documents why
22 that was the case. Of course this is exactly how the original looks like
23 and that is why I am showing it to you. And it is very significant that
24 this list has been crossed out.
25 Q. Mr. Simic, you said that you didn't know those people.
1 A. Yes, that's correct. I don't know their names.
2 MR. DI FAZIO: Again. No objection, Your Honour. And I'm just
3 trying to follow -- sorry, which people? Every one in the document?
4 Part of the document? The village guard? I have no problem with this
5 kind of questioning, but I want to follow.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Again because it's not clear to us either. Are you
7 referring the witness only to that part which is crossed out, the village
8 guard? That's how I understood it, but I want to make sure.
9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Precisely that, Your Honours. And I
10 kindly ask now the witness, and this will further clarify the situation,
11 to look at page 01320334 of the same D7 document, which has the list of
12 Jezestica II. Can you please push the document a little bit upwards so
13 that we can see the end of it, please.
14 Q. Mr. Simic, you can see that underneath those names there is no
15 indication that they were village guards. Isn't that true? And I will
16 repeat the page number 01320334. Mr. Simic, is it true that there is no
17 mention of the village guard here?
18 A. It's not written there, but that's how we dubbed it. There was no
19 other name assigned to it.
20 Q. All right, Mr. Simic. Let me put to you a few more questions in
21 this context. Your father's name is Gojko. Is that correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. You were born in Gostilj and you lived in Jezestica?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Last Friday the Prosecution asked you if your father's name was
1 Ljubo and you said no. Now, I will ask the usher to produce on the ELMO
2 the extract from the federal census bureau referring to the municipality
3 of Srebrenica and Bratunac, which contains the list of all the persons
4 whose last name is Simic. In the attachment to this extract is a letter
5 of the director of the statistics bureau who provided official information
6 to the defence council on the names of persons who were listed in the 1992
7 census in Bratunac municipality, Srebrenica, and Zvornik municipality.
8 The name of Mr. Miladin Simic, father's name Gojko, born in Gostilj
9 residing in Jezestica is on page 4.
10 Mr. Simic, could you please look at this page and see whether this
11 is your name. On the next page, somewhere in the middle, you can see
12 Simic, Gojko, Miladin, Jezestica, Gostilj. This is your name, right?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Can you please have this extract from the statistics bureau
15 referring to all these municipalities and listing all the persons with the
16 last name Simic together with the covering letter to be given an evidence
18 JUDGE AGIUS: D15 --
19 THE REGISTRAR: The number will be D16.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Which is D15?
21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
22 Q. Mr. Simic, you are the only person, Miladin Simic, who was a
23 resident of Jezestica in 1991. Is that correct?
24 A. Yes, in Jezestica.
25 Q. And your name is on the list, too, in document 7. Is that
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. You even received remuneration for your participating in combat
5 A. No, not me. Maybe somebody else did but I didn't. I didn't know
6 why that was the case because I also held guard and I received salary from
8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the usher please put on the
9 ELMO document number 133527, list of the VP members, 2465/5 who received
10 payment for business official trips and a document containing the
11 financial document of the Bratunac Brigade. It was taken by the
13 Q. Mr. Simic, could you please look at this document. Can you see
14 this document, Mr. Simic?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Number 2081.
17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could you push the document upwards,
18 please. Yeah. A little bit more, please.
19 Q. Under number 2081 it says -- or you can see the name: Miladin
20 Simic. And it says from the 1st of August until the 31st of August, 1992,
21 and the amount of 13.020 dinars.
22 Mr. Simic, you did receive this money, didn't you?
23 A. No. That's not true. I said that I had received no money even
24 after I had been released.
25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this document
1 0132335207, the list of the persons who received remuneration for business
2 trips in August 2, 1992, and numbered 2465/5 be given a Defence exhibit
4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the number will be D17.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: In addition to that just to complete the question --
6 the witness's question -- answer, I would like the technicians first to
7 zoom on what appears to be number 281 with the words: "Simic, Miladin" so
8 that he can see it --
9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] 2081, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Sorry, 2081. It's further down.
11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can you just push it up a little
12 bit. A little bit more, please.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. And is that the best you can -- because I am
14 going to ask you now to move towards the right so that where there are
15 signatures so that the witness sees the signature that appears there. You
16 need to move, you need to move further. Yes. And there is one on the
17 monitor three, four, five, six, seven, eight, the eighth entry, the eighth
18 signature from the top. Could we zoom on that any further, please. Yes.
19 Okay. And perhaps he can tell us whether he recognises that signature as
20 his own.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is not my signature.
22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well, Your Honour. I ask you
23 now that next to this witness you put on the ELMO the statement given by
24 Mr. Simic and signed by him quite clearly in 2001. If at all possible,
25 could you fold over this part with Mr. Simic's signature. Fold it. Here
1 we can see Mr. Miladin Simic's signature.
2 Would you now, Mr. Usher, please fold this part over. I can give
3 you my copy if you like with Mr. Simic's signature and place it next to
4 the other signature. It's marked in yellow.
5 Q. What do you see now, Mr. Simic?
6 A. It's similar, but I wouldn't say it was my signature.
7 Q. Well, Mr. Simic, these are financial documents. Why would your
8 name be listed here and your signature appear if you did not receive this
9 amount of money.
10 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Di Fazio.
12 MR. DI FAZIO: He said that's not my signature.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: He's changed it a little bit now.
14 MR. DI FAZIO: He says it looks like his, but it's not his, his
15 position remains the same, and he's being asked: Now, why is his
16 signature on the document. You can draw your own conclusions.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, you are right. Objection sustained, in fact.
18 But it does, Madam Vidovic, also draw your attention to the second
19 statement that he released to -- made to the Prosecution, then he decided
20 to sign in block letters. So we -- that can't be of an end. His other
21 statement is signed in block letters.
22 Yes, the Trial Chamber will draw its conclusion if it can.
23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you, Your Honour.
24 Q. Mr. Simic, all the units on your territory were paid by the Army
25 of Republika Srpska, were they not?
1 A. I don't know that before the soldiers were paid or not.
2 Q. I'm speaking of units, Mr. Simic. Are you aware that they were
3 paid by the Army of Republika Srpska?
4 A. I heard there was some kind of village troops receiving payment,
5 but I don't know anything about this.
6 Q. I would now like to ask the usher to put on the ELMO a document
7 which is an excerpt from the payroll of August 1992, which was taken from
8 the financial records of the Bratunac Brigade, and it bears the number
9 01335185. This excerpts that I wish to show the witness bears the number
10 01335186 and the title, "list of salaries paid for August 1992". Please
11 put the document on the ELMO and let the witness see it. This is the
12 English version. Could you please put the Bosnian Herzegovinian version.
13 The document is salaries paid for August 1992.
14 Mr. Simic, is it not correct that this document lists the precise
15 amount paid in the Kravica area as salaries. We have a document here for
16 the 22 units mentioned in document D7. Is that not correct, Mr. Simic?
17 A. Yes, but I don't know anything about this. I don't know how much
18 was paid or who received it. I have no idea.
19 Q. Very well, Mr. Simic. Please look at number 9 of this document
20 which mentions the unit Jezestica II and it received 599.480 dinars.
21 A. Yes, I see this, but it's not clear to me. I didn't hear about
22 it. I don't know what they received.
23 Q. What didn't you hear, Mr. Simic?
24 A. I didn't hear about this amount of money and whether they received
25 it or not.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Q. I move that this document which is an excerpt from a larger
2 document starting with 01335185 and the part bearing the number 01335186
3 bearing the title, "Salary for August 1992" be admitted into evidence as a
4 Defence exhibit.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the number will be D18.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Madam Vidovic, did you obtain this from the
7 Prosecution, this document? I see an ERN number on --
8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Certainly, Your Honour. Yes. These
9 documents we are using are confiscated from the Bratunac Brigade by the
11 Q. Now, Mr. Simic, I will put another question to you. The Bratunac
12 Brigade was established in November 1992, and that was a big event in the
13 Bratunac region, was it not?
14 A. In 1992?
15 Q. Yes.
16 A. I don't know.
17 Q. Are you perhaps aware of what happened with these units and as you
18 call them guards as of November 1992 and onwards? Did they become part of
19 the Bratunac Brigade?
20 A. I neither saw nor heard that.
21 Q. Mr. Simic, are you trying to say that you were not a soldier of
22 the Bratunac Brigade?
23 A. I was a member of the village guard from March 1992 to March 1993.
24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Would the usher now put on the ELMO
25 document number 01319781, which is a list of persons belonging to military
1 post number 2465 through 5 who received remuneration for official travel
2 for November 1992, and this was confiscated from the financial
3 documentation of the Bratunac Brigade and has been previously shown as
4 Defence exhibit D8.
5 THE REGISTRAR: This will be D8.
6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] 88, thank you.
7 Q. Mr. Simic, I wish to draw your attention now to page 01319786
8 which has the 3rd Infantry Company. This is 01319786 and it's number 356,
9 Miladin Simic.
10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Will you push the document up a
11 little bit, please. And the page ends with the numbers 9788.
12 Q. Could you please -- I may have misquoted the page number. Would
13 you please turn -- yes, yes. Number 356 is here, Simic, Miladin, and
14 that's number 356. He was there in that company from the 1st of November
15 to the 30th of November, 1992.
16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] And could you please move this
17 document a little bit to the right -- to the left, sorry. Yes. And he
18 received the amount of 48.900 dinars.
19 Q. Mr. Simic, you were a member of the Bratunac Brigade after all,
20 weren't you?
21 A. I can tell you I did not receive this money. And you can see in
22 my military record when I joined the village guards and when I left the
23 village guards. I don't know who compiled this list, but I know that in
24 March -- I don't know now whether it was the 20th or the 25th of March,
25 that I was released. But who it was who compiled this list you can check
1 in the military records.
2 Q. Mr. Simic, are you trying to say that you were in the village
3 guards until March 1993?
4 A. Yes, yes, 1993.
5 Q. In this connection I will ask you the following: Do you know that
6 the village guards as of November 1992 was not treated as army at all in
7 the area where the Bratunac Brigade was active?
8 A. What I can say is that I did not go any further from my house.
9 This was a village guard. When there was an attack on the 7th of January,
10 we went to Colakovici and Popovic. We were evacuated there.
11 Q. Would you please answer the questions I put to you.
12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Would the usher put on the ELMO
13 document number 01320311.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Di Fazio.
15 MR. DI FAZIO: Just copies, if Your Honours please. We -- I don't
16 think we received a copy of the last document that was used with the
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Which one? This is D8. The last document is --
19 MR. DI FAZIO: The last one. Not the one being put now but the
20 document with the salaries.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, this is D8. It has already been tendered.
22 MR. DI FAZIO: I'm sorry. I misunderstood.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: It was tendered last Friday or during the testimony
24 of the previous witness.
25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could we look at this
1 document and allow the witness to reply to my question and then it might
2 be a convenient time moment for a break if it suits Your Honours.
3 Would the usher please put on the ELMO document number 01320311
4 which is an order from the command of the Bratunac garrison dated the 5th
5 of November, 1992. I ask that the witness look at the document.
6 Q. Is it correct that this document is an order ordering all persons
7 keeping guard in the village guards saying that we cannot provide them
8 with wages and the commanders of the basic units should not include such
9 persons in the lists for -- in the payroll?
10 A. I don't know anything about this.
11 Q. Yes, but I will put a question to you to which you may know the
12 answer. As a member of the village guard, you were not able to receive a
13 salary from the Bratunac Brigade nor could you have been put on the list
14 of its soldiers in 1992. Is that correct?
15 A. Yes, that's correct. That's what I think unless something dirty
16 was done. Because in my booklet it says clearly when I was in the village
18 Q. I ask that document 01320311, order from the command of the
19 Bratunac garrison of the 5th of November, 1992, be admitted into evidence
20 and I wish to mention once again that this document is part of the
21 confiscated financial documentation of the Bratunac Brigade, confiscated
22 by the Prosecutor.
23 Thank you, Your Honours. This might be a convenient time now.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. And this document will be D19. I recognise
25 Mr. Di Fazio.
1 MR. DI FAZIO: Just one very minor matter. I wonder if the
2 Defence would be so kind to inform the Prosecution and the Trial Chamber
3 which particular seizure are we talking about here?
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. You're referring -- confiscation from the
5 Bratunac municipality.
6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I said very clearly
7 that these are confiscated documents seized from the Bratunac Brigade.
8 The Office of the Prosecutor disclosed two CDs to us with this, and I
9 think they should know how and when these documents were confiscated. I
10 did not go into it now because I focused on the facts.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: I think that's fair enough.
12 MR. DI FAZIO: I think that's fair enough. I was just wondering
13 if the information was at hand. If it's not, we can make our own
14 inquiries. Thank you.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, you can make your own inquiries for sure. I
16 hope so, at least.
17 So, we'll have a break of 25 minutes. I'm saying 25 and not 30 so
18 that we try to economise on time as much as we can so that possibly we
19 finish with the cross-examination today. Thank you.
20 --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.
21 --- On resuming at 11.04 a.m.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I -- wait. Okay. Yes, Mr. Wubben.
23 MR. WUBBEN: Your Honour, I have a short question; it relates to
24 the time needed for -- on cross. I already announced that to Defence
25 counsel. But when we take a look at the projected witness subsequent to
1 this one, that particular witness is not brought to the Tribunal this
2 morning upon this information that the cross might be needed for the whole
3 day, otherwise it would -- that witness would wait and wait. My question
4 is: Is it true we will take this morning, the whole morning, and so on
5 for cross, and that means for me that I can confirm that she doesn't need
6 to be stand-by.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, thank you, Mr. Wubben. Yes, Madam Vidovic.
8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, hopefully I think that
9 I will need another one and a half hours minimum, and I will really try to
10 be focused and to finish within this time limit. Perhaps ten minutes plus
11 or something, but I really will try to finish by 1.00 p.m.. It of course
12 depends on the course of the cross-examination.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: 1.00 p.m., between half 12.00 and 1.00, you know, we
14 have a break. So any way I am not going to tell you what to do,
15 Mr. Wubben. I mean, you've heard what Madam Vidovic had to say and
16 regulate yourselves accordingly. I don't know. We will be here. We are
17 at your disposal until quarter to 2.00.
18 MR. WUBBEN: If you are at our disposal and if it's true that it
19 can be finalised, cross, around 1.00, 1.15, then it means a start for
20 three-quarters of an hour. And if that's productive, and I would
21 accommodate the Trial Chamber to proceed in an expeditious way, that will
22 mean then -- if that's the case, that will mean that I will request our
23 team to contact Victims and Witnesses Unit to let them stand by.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: It's the reverse. It's not you accommodating us;
25 it's we accommodating you, basically. And amongst the things we recognise
1 is we don't know what this witness is going to say, we don't know whether
2 it's suitable for you to start and continue tomorrow. I don't know. It's
3 up to you. But we are not going to -- what we are telling you is: We are
4 at your disposal, and at your disposal of course until quarter to 2.00.
5 MR. WUBBEN: Thank you, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Next thing, Ms. Vidovic, my attention has been drawn
7 during the break to appeal to you to slow down because you are making the
8 life of the interpreters more difficult than it ought to be. All right?
9 Can I count on your cooperation as well as on yours, Mr. Simic? Please
10 allow an interval of time between question and answer because you are not
11 even allowing one another to finish the sentence. This happens when you
12 speak -- both speak the same language.
13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I will do
14 my best.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Go ahead. Thank you.
16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Mr. Simic, let us resume where we stopped. In your statement on
18 Friday you mentioned that there was artillery in the area of your local
19 commune deployed in Siljkovici and Rankovici. Is that true?
20 A. That's true.
21 Q. Thank you. You said that the VRS army was not -- did not exist,
22 or rather that you didn't know anything about that in that area?
23 A. No. I didn't know anything about it nor did I see. I encountered
24 the local people of Jezestica only.
25 Q. Thank you. Mr. Simic, then who gave the artillery weapons to the
1 village defence? These were not shotguns. Is that true? Or hunting
3 A. I don't know. But there was only one in Sipovici and one in
5 Q. This kind of weaponry must have been provided by either the Army
6 of Republika Srpska or the JNA. Is that correct?
7 A. I don't know. I never heard from anyone about this. I knew that
8 there was a small recoilless gun then. I'm not familiar with that weapon,
9 and I never saw it. I never was interested to go over there and look at
11 Q. Thank you, Mr. Simic. Is it true that the area of Kravica in fact
12 had much more artillery than you had stated here?
13 A. It's not clear to me. I never heard of it and I didn't go to
15 Q. When I'm speaking about the Kravica area, I'm a also referring to
16 the surrounding villages of Siljkovici, Rankovici, Jezestica, et cetera.
17 You are a hunter and you know very well what the Kravica area is. I'm not
18 referring to the village of Kravica only, but to the whole area.
19 A. Yes, it is clear to me but I didn't see anything deployed, either
20 in Rankovici, or Siljkovici, but I did hear about that.
21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could the witness
22 please be again shown document D7 so that he can again look at page
23 01320326 which is part of our Defence Exhibit D7.
24 Q. Mr. Simic, in this document under the column of the village guard
25 in the village Bacici, there's also a list of artillery operators with 24
1 names underneath. Is that correct?
2 A. Yes, I see this but it's not clear to me.
3 Q. Mr. Simic, could you please look at these names. You must know
4 some of them because those were your neighbours. Could you please look at
5 the list.
6 A. Stojan Milosevic was a teacher of my daughter.
7 Q. Do you know that he was a gunner?
8 A. No, but I know his name.
9 Q. All right, Mr. Simic.
10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could -- however, since this is
11 already an exhibit, it doesn't need to be assigned a number. But could
12 you please now put on the ELMO our exhibit D6 again, page number 00656784
13 which refers to Ocenovici and Banjevici.
14 Q. Mr. Simic, could you please take a look at this. You said you
15 were a hunter and that you were very well familiar with the area. Could
16 you tell us please, was there a hunters' lodge in Banjevici that you know
18 A. Yes, I did hear of it but I never went there.
19 Q. As a hunter you never went there?
20 A. That was not my region. We had our own regions.
21 Q. Could you please look at this document now that is in front of you
22 and which refers to Ocenovici and Banjevici. In this document in the last
23 column, there is also a list of gunners and it consists of 16 names. In
24 this regard let me ask you: Gunners are men that serve artillery weapons;
25 that is the definition in our language of the term "gunner."
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 A. That's correct. But I don't know these people.
2 Q. And you had never heard that there were artillery units in these
3 two villages?
4 A. We never got familiar with that nor did anyone tell us that there
5 were artillery weapons deployed anywhere.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: This is what is happening. We are still receiving
7 interpretation. He started answering your question when you had not even
8 finished it. And you, Madam Vidovic, put -- started putting the same --
9 the next question when he hadn't finished as yet and when we were still
10 halfway through the interpretation. We can't go on like this.
11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honours.
12 Q. My question was whether the word "gunner" is used for the people
13 who work with artillery weapons?
14 A. Yes, that's correct. But I don't know any of these names.
15 Q. All right. Thank you. Did you perhaps hear that heavy artillery
16 was deployed in Vresinje above Radukici which is also in your
18 A. I also never heard about that. I only know that there was a gun
19 in Rankovici and in Siljkovici. Nothing else.
20 Q. All right, Mr. Simic. Where then these artillery weapons at
21 Siljkovici, Rankovici were pointing at or what did they target?
22 A. It's not clear to me. I don't know where it was aiming at or what
23 were their targets.
24 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
1 MR. DI FAZIO: There is something about this evidence and the way
2 it's coming out that's concerning me. The evidence of this witness you
3 recall on Friday was that he had not laid eyes on these two weapons
4 located in Siljkovici and Rankovici. And I don't recall his precise word
5 but he said something to the effect that he knew or somehow knew that this
6 was a weapon that could be carried by you and me. You recall that.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, it's --
8 MR. DI FAZIO: Now, the way it's coming out in the transcript is
9 we're moving from something he heard about that could be carried by a
10 human being to an artillery weapon. Now, I'm no arms expert but in
11 English the term "artillery" tends to have a connotation of a much larger,
12 much more powerful weapon than something that can be carried by a human
13 being. That's what I'm concerned about. And indeed you can see that
14 Madam Vidovic is assuming that this object, whatever it was, could have
15 been targeted or was used in a certain fashion. So we're going -- we're
16 entrenching into the transcript the concept of some sort of artillery
17 weapon, when in reality this witness has spoken about something he says he
18 didn't actually lay eyes on and that could be carried by a human being.
19 And that perspective must be maintained in the transcript. And that's my
20 only concern.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: I think having heard that -- yes, Madam Vidovic.
22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if I may respond. When
23 I'm asking questions I bear in mind whether the witness has any knowledge
24 of that. If he mentioned artillery -- in our language can also refer to
25 either light or heavy artillery, and I think that the witness understands
1 me perfectly well. I would also like to draw your attention to the
2 statement made on the 7th of April, 2002, where he specifically says that
3 there were guns in Siljkovici and Rankovici and that there were
4 deployed -- that artillery guns were deployed there and this is precisely
5 what I'm discussing now with the witness. Now I'm referring to page 3 of
6 the witness's statement given on the 7th of April, 2002, which he for the
7 most part repeated here. And if I may, Your Honours, I would like to
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. But taking stock of what you mentioned,
10 Mr. Di Fazio, also the fact that he has given evidence on this and also
11 what Madam Vidovic -- so we are -- we'll proceed.
12 Madam Vidovic.
13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Mr. Simic, are we talking about the Serbian army in Siljkovici and
16 A. I think yes. The guns in Siljkovici and Rankovici, one each
17 there, were Serbian guns.
18 Q. And were those weapons shooting at the Muslim population or the
19 Serbian population?
20 A. How could I know? Why would they shoot at the Serbian population?
21 I assume that they shot at the Muslim population.
22 Q. Thank you very much. Let me proceed to another issue,
23 Mr. Simic --
24 MR. DI FAZIO: Just a one very brief transcript matter and it
25 should be clear because it's this very issue that we talked about. Line
2 "Q. Mr. Simic, are we talking about the Serbian army in Siljkovici
3 and Rankovici." I heard the question as: Are we talking about Serbian
4 artillery in Siljkovici and Rankovici. And there's a big difference in --
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I heard exactly like you did, Mr. Di Fazio, and
6 I would like Madam Vidovic to correct me if I'm wrong.
7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] No, no. You're not wrong. I asked
8 the question about the Serbian artillery weapons.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Thank you, Mr. Di Fazio. And thank you,
10 Madam Vidovic.
11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Mr. Simic, is it true that the women were extensively involved in
13 the combat operations on the side of the Serbian people? I'm not going to
14 refer at this point to the Army of the Republika Srpska.
15 A. As far as I heard the women were not involved in the fighting
16 fought by the Serbian people.
17 Q. Is it true that the entire platoons of women in the area of
18 Bratunac were involved as part of defence system or defence units?
19 A. I never heard of that or never saw such a thing. It may have been
20 the case but since I have no knowledge of that, I cannot confirm.
21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could the usher please
22 put on the ELMO document number 00656840 which also originates from the
23 seized documentations of the Bratunac Brigade, from Bratunac, and which is
24 entitled: "The list of women that are to be paid salaries for August
25 1992." Will the witness please look at this list.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I will.
2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. There's a list of 35 women. The person under number 1, it says
4 here that she is a platoon commander.
5 A. It's not clear to me. What kind of platoon are we talking about?
6 I really don't understand that.
7 Q. The commander of the women's platoon. Mr. Simic, could you please
8 look at the heading of this document. You know what the heading or the
9 logo of the document is?
10 A. No, I don't.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Simic and Madam Vidovic, we are back to square
12 one. It is you, Mr. Simic, that is causing all this trouble. Allow an
13 interval of time after Madam Vidovic has put her question to you. What
14 she has just stated needs to be translated to us because we don't
15 understand your language. And therefore, allow an interval of time before
16 you jump in to answer her question. I know that you are showing a lot of
17 enthusiasm and try to do your best and answer your questions -- the
18 questions put to you as precisely and as fully as you can, but we can't
19 make the life of the interpreters and also of the recorder difficult.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honours.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: No, I don't want apologies, I want cooperation,
22 Mr. Simic. Go ahead.
23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Mr. Simic, this is a list of women who are to be paid salaries for
25 the month of August 1992 and the person under number 1, it says, is the
1 platoon commander. Did you hear that women were members of the defence in
2 your area? I am asking you again.
3 A. No, no, I didn't hear about that. I didn't. I did not hear it.
4 I did not see it. These women did not come round and I can't say that
5 before Their Honours.
6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I move that this
7 document, the list of women on the payroll for the month of August 1992,
8 number 00656840 be admitted into evidence and given an exhibit number.
9 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please --
10 JUDGE AGIUS: D20 -- yes, Mr. --
11 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please. The Prosecution has no
12 objection on the assumption that somehow at some point the relevance of
13 women fighting or not fighting --
14 JUDGE AGIUS: I will --
15 MR. DI FAZIO: It's not plain to me. And so now I'm hoping, I
16 assume that later, the relevance of this will be made clear.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Have you ever lived a trial in which you knew
18 exactly what to expect during the first week --
19 MR. DI FAZIO: No, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: A trial here at this Tribunal. Because at home,
21 yes, of course. The answer is definitely yes. But over here the answer
22 is definitely not.
23 MR. DI FAZIO: I just make my reservations clear.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. One moment, Judge Eser would like to --
25 JUDGE ESER: Before you go on with this list I have a question
1 with regard to the English translation and whether it is concurrent with
2 the Serbian original. In the English translation you read: "Of women who
3 should be paid for the months of August." Now, should be paid does not
4 necessarily imply that it has been paid. So was it only a list of
5 requests for people to be paid or was it a document of salaries paid in
6 fact? And what is the original? Does the translation correspond to the
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Judge Eser.
9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, there may be a slight
10 difference in the translation. It says: "List of women who should be
11 paid their salaries for the month of August." This means that they have
12 done their job and that they are to be paid. It doesn't mean that they --
13 I ask that the interpreters confirm what I say.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: If I may be of some help. Does it actually mean to
15 be entitled to be paid? Is this what the document says? Having a right
16 to be paid in other words?
17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.
19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the relevance of my
20 question will be clear immediately from my next question.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Go ahead, Madam Vidovic.
22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Mr. Simic, are you sure that your own unit had no women soldiers
24 in Jezestica?
25 A. I know for a fact that it didn't. I didn't see any women.
1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would now like to
2 ask the usher to put on the ELMO document 01320487, a list of conscripts
3 of the Jezestica II Company.
4 Q. Under number 26, Mr. Simic, if you would take a look.
5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could you just move the document up
6 a little bit so we can see number 26. 26, the name is Vida Trisic.
7 Q. Mr. Simic, in your testimony you mentioned a person who was
8 killed, and this person's name was Vida?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Is this the same person?
11 A. Yes, yes. I can see that it is.
12 Q. So, Mr. Simic, Vida Trisic was a soldier, was she not?
13 A. I don't know whether she was a soldier or not, but in 1993, that's
14 when she was killed.
15 Q. Very well. Thank you.
16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I move that document number
17 013220487, list of conscripts in the Jezestica II Company be admitted into
18 evidence. And I also move that the previous document, number 00656840
19 bearing the list -- the title: "List of women to be paid salaries for
20 August 1992" be admitted into evidence. I was interrupted, so that's why
21 I did not enter it right away. I can repeat this for the registry --
22 JUDGE AGIUS: You don't need to Madam Vidovic. The first one --
23 yes, the first one with ERN number 00656840 and 00656841 will be D20. And
24 the last document, 013204 -- I think it's 57 and not 87, if I can read it
25 or 67 but not 87.
1 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please just one matter. Was --
2 Madam Vidovic put to the witness that Vida --
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Trisic.
4 MR. DI FAZIO: Trisic was mentioned in this witness's testimony.
5 I wonder if Madam Vidovic could be so kind as to remind the Prosecution
6 when this happened -- Friday I assume.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: I would imagine so. I cannot -- I do recall him
8 mentioning some people being killed, but not the names. I mean, I don't
9 remember the names.
10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Madam Vida --
11 JUDGE AGIUS: I think Mr. Roberts will help us.
12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] We'll give you the line number.
13 It's page 59, Your Honours, that's when Madam Vida was mentioned.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.
15 And this document will be D21.
16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
17 Q. Mr. Simic, you said that the Kravica and Jezestica areas, the
18 entire local communes did not have an organised command and that there was
19 no commander.
20 A. Yes, as far as I know there wasn't.
21 Q. But you mentioned a certain Nikolic from Kravica coming to
22 Jezestica for negotiations, talks.
23 A. Yes, but that was after the fall on the 8th of August, 1992.
24 Q. Thank you, Mr. Simic. Does the name Jovan Nikolic mean anything
25 to you?
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 A. I heard of him but I don't know why -- what the context was.
2 Q. Mr. Simic, can this person, Nikolic, be connected to Jovan
4 A. That's not clear to me.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Let me intervene here. If I remember well -- I
6 mean, I'm relying on my memory which usually isn't that bad. Last time,
7 last Friday, you mentioned a certain Dragan Nikolic as being the person
8 that visited your village or wherever after the fall of 8 August. Now
9 it's being put to you -- another name is being put to you, Jovan Nikolic.
10 Are these the name person? Could you have been wrong last time when you
11 said Dragan Nikolic and you meant to be Jovan Nikolic or do you stay by
12 what you told us last time, the name you mentioned last time, and
13 identified Jovan Nikolic as someone different?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. It was Dragan
15 Nikolic who came after the fall in 1992.
16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you.
17 Q. Mr. Nikolic -- Mr. Simic, I apologise, Mr. Simic, is it correct
18 that during April, May, and June 1992 the surrounding Muslim villages were
19 cleansed, or rather that the Muslim population was expelled from around
20 your village?
21 A. That's not clear to me. I don't know -- I was at home. I didn't
22 hear about that.
23 Q. Mr. Simic, you are a sensitive man. Last Friday you became
24 tearful remembering your house, and I assume you would feel for the fate
25 of your neighbours, including Muslims. Can you tell us what happened to
1 the Muslims from your neighbourhood. Did you know anything at all about
3 A. No, we were not told anything. If I had heard or seen anything, I
4 would tell you.
5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Would the usher put on the ELMO a
6 map of Bratunac drawn up by the Republican Bureau of Statistics of the
7 Republic of Croatia which is part of the document of the ethnic
8 composition of Bosnia and Herzegovina by villages, and this was published
9 in Zagreb in April 1995. And would the usher -- we have a map in colour.
10 Please put it on the ELMO and let the witness look at it.
11 Q. Can the witness please take a good look at this map.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Could you focus --
14 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, please.
15 Yes, Judge Brydensholt -- it's okay. Please go ahead. Thank you.
16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Would the usher please focus on the
17 map itself -- yes. Thank you. Thank you. Now it's all right.
18 Q. Mr. Simic, would you please take a look at these villages and is
19 it correct that the green circles, I apologise both to the Chamber and to
20 the witness, these darker circles appear to me to be green, they are green
21 in the original. Mr. Simic, could you tell us whether the green circles
22 really indicate the Muslim settlements while the violet ones indicate Serb
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Vidovic, again it's even having the printout,
25 photocopied printout itself, doesn't help much when talking about colours.
1 But then seeing it on a monitor you are further disadvantaged. Do you
2 have available this map or this chart and map and details in the original,
3 in other words coloured? Because, I mean, it's easy for you to put the
4 question: Look at those circles which are -- seem to be darker than the
5 others, but this is a photocopy. I mean, it can be very misleading, very
7 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, there's one other aspect
8 about this map that's of concern to me. This witness is not a
9 demographics man, he's plainly not an expert in demographics. I've got no
10 problem, if Your Honours please, of Madam Vidovic exploring with this
11 witness movements in the area. I've got no problem with that whatsoever,
12 and I'm not trying to stop her. But trying to do it by presenting a map
13 of demographics to this witness is, with respect, not the way to go about
14 it. She can ask this witness: Did all the Muslims move out of certain
15 villages? And he can tell you. He will probably be of assistance to you,
16 more in that manner rather than commenting on a demographics map. If the
17 Defence wishes to tender this map into evidence, I've got no objection to
18 that and they can do that straight away. All I'm concerned about is
19 getting the witness to comment on this particular map.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: But the witness could perhaps be in a position to
21 comment. I mean, he could be in a position. I mean, coming from the
22 Mediterranean region where communities live closer than in many other
23 places, I can assure you that I wouldn't be surprised in the least if the
24 witness can come forward and tell us village by village whether they were
25 predominantly Muslim or predominantly Serb, or predominantly -- I can tell
1 you in my country each hamlet --
2 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, I've got no problem with that and Your Honour,
3 I think, reflects what I just told the Trial Chamber. I've got no problem
4 with that line of examination, but it's the use of the map and it's
5 commenting on it that is -- it's a bit unfair with this witness who may
6 have some trouble reading and understanding demographics.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: That is granted. That I grant you. I have the same
8 problems as well. I personally cannot really follow from here because
9 it's -- the shading that you have on a photocopy like this may not reflect
10 the different colours only. It may be the result of second, third,
11 fourth, fifth, or 90th generation photocopy. So I don't know.
12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I will try to simplify
13 this. Let us forget about green and blue circles. I will just ask the
14 witness the following question: Mr. Simic -- and I certainly would not
15 request this map to be tendered as a Defence exhibit. I will only ask the
16 witness the following.
17 Q. Can you show to the Trial Chamber Glogova and Hranca irrespective
18 of the colour of the circles?
19 A. Yes, I can.
20 Q. Would you please do that, sir.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's see Glogova first.
22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Glogova.
24 A. [Witness complies]
25 Q. And then Hranca, sir.
1 A. [Witness complies]
2 Q. Can you tell us whether those were at the time, 1991, at the
3 beginning of war populated by the Muslims?
4 A. Glogova was a Muslim village, whereas Hranca was a mixed one, a
5 mixture of both the Serbian and the Muslim populations.
6 Q. All right, Mr. Simic. How far is Glogova from Jezestica?
7 A. I cannot say exactly, but I think it's about 6 kilometres between
8 Jezestica and Glogova.
9 Q. Can you show to the Trial Chamber the village of Jecevo [phoen].
10 A. [Witness complies]
11 Q. Yes, you can. How about Voljavica?
12 A. Let me also tell you that Bljeceva also had a mixed population.
13 Q. What many Muslims?
14 A. I don't know the exact number. There were both Serbs and Muslims.
15 Q. Was it predominantly a Muslim village? Was that a predominantly
16 Muslim or Serb village?
17 A. I don't know. I know that they were both nationalities.
18 Q. All right, sir. Do you agree that Glogova was an exclusively
19 Muslim village?
20 A. Yes, I do agree.
21 Q. So as you -- which is as you say about 6 kilometres far away.
22 Could it have been possible that in May you heard nothing about a mass
23 murder of civilians that took place there, of Muslim civilians?
24 A. I don't know. Shots were heard, but I don't know where they came
25 from, but I didn't hear about the specific event, that that was done.
1 Q. Mr. Simic, is it true that there were permanent fighting with the
2 residents of the surrounding Muslim villages, include Jezestica, in the
3 period between May and August 1992?
4 A. It's not clear to me, but I know that in Polje, where my house is,
5 was not involved. As for the other hamlets, I never heard from anyone.
6 They also just kept guard around their houses.
7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the usher please show the
8 witness the Defence exhibit number 002075886. It starts with the village
9 of Hranca and it contains the list of casualties in Hranca and Glogova.
10 And for now, I will only deal with the list of the dead and the wounded in
11 Hranca -- I'm sorry, in Glogova.
12 Could the witness please be shown page 02075887.
13 Q. This is the list of the wounded in Glogova at various times.
14 Mr. Simic, do you know any of these people?
15 A. I know -- I don't know any of these people.
16 Q. Mr. Simic, please pay attention to numbers 45 and 46 in the list,
17 Ljubomir Rankovic [phoen] and Milica Rankovic [phoen] who were from
18 Jezestica, therefore from your village. And it says that they were
19 wounded in Glogova on the 2nd of August, 1992.
20 A. It is possible, but I never heard about that.
21 Q. What were they doing there?
22 A. I don't know that either.
23 Q. Glogova is a Muslim village. Is that correct?
24 A. Yes, that's correct.
25 Q. Mr. Simic, I would also like to draw your attention that on that
1 same day, the 2nd of August, 1992, in Glogova, according to this document,
2 Vojo Avromovic [phoen] from Kravica was also wounded. Could you please
3 look at this, Mr. Simic. This is your native town. Goran from Kravica,
4 Dusko Milanovic [phoen] from Kravica. Number 31, Dusko Nikolic from
5 Kravica; number 43, Drago Radovic from Bratunac. All of them were wounded
6 on the 2nd of August, 1992.
7 A. I don't know any of those people whose names you've just read.
8 Q. Mr. Simic, is it possible that those men on that day were involved
9 in the fighting with the Muslims from Glogova, in other words that they
10 were attacking Glogova?
11 A. I didn't hear about that, but it is possible.
12 Q. Can please this list of casualties in Glogova that I just quoted
13 be tendered as Defence exhibit and that it be given a number. And this
14 document is also -- it came from the confiscated documentation of the 5th
15 Corps of the Army of Republika Srpska, the Sokolac collection about which
16 Ms. Resina told us today that the 5th Corps is a legal successor of the
17 Drina Corps that used to operate at the time in this zone.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you for the information. Just for the record,
19 that is not being taken as evidence on your part, Madam Vidovic.
20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
21 Q. Mr. Simic, does this document --
22 JUDGE AGIUS: That document will be D22, by the way. It's up to
23 her. If Madam Vidovic -- we now have that map or -- and accompanying
24 information in colour. And basically you have the violet or the mauve and
25 the green. If you want to make use of it and introduce it in evidence, we
1 will concede you that without any problems.
2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would certainly wish
3 that if there is no problem because my -- we have only one coloured copy
4 and that was my main concern.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: I think it can be photocopied in colour. We will do
6 it for you. So -- yes, Mr. Di Fazio, you have problems with that?
7 MR. DI FAZIO: No, no. None at all. Just a clerical issue, so to
8 speak. I just wanted to be sure, D22, is that with ERN numbers ending
9 887 --
10 JUDGE AGIUS: 886. It starts with 886.
11 MR. DI FAZIO: Then I've got a problem.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Then there is a corresponding page in English and it
13 continues with 887 right through 888, and then there are two pages in
15 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: And then 889, corresponding page in English.
17 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: 892 and a corresponding page in English. That's
19 what I have.
20 MR. DI FAZIO: That's what I have, too, but the whole bundle is
21 being tendered. That's what I'm not sure about. Because it --
22 JUDGE AGIUS: I didn't take it as if the whole bundle was being
23 taken, and I take it that only this was being tendered today. No?
24 MR. DI FAZIO: I thought that what was being tendered as a result
25 of the cross-examination that was just conducted was a very specific part
1 of this bundle. I thought it was 887 and 888 and the accompanying English
2 translation. If I'm wrong, that's what I want to be clear about.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's check what Madam Vidovic said.
4 MR. DI FAZIO: That's how I was following the evidence, you see,
5 Looking at the list and the numbers.
6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it seems to me that I
7 was quite clear and that I referred to 02075887, the list of casualties
8 from Glogova, should be tendered as Defence exhibit. Truly I did refer to
9 the Prosecution number that has at the beginning of this document for --
10 to make it more convenient for the Prosecution because I'm using their
11 bunch of documents and didn't want to tire the Chamber with the whole set
12 of documents that referred to some other issue. So I was quite clear when
13 I said I wanted the document to be tendered which ends in numbers 887.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: So basically it's this set of numbers that are being
15 tendered. And for convenience sake, we could actually take off 0207886
16 and take off the rest, but I would keep everything as it is, Mr. Di Fazio,
17 I mean, starting from 02075886 to 02075889.
18 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, I've got no problem with either course. All
19 I wanted to know is precisely what is being tendered.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: I read what Madam Vidovic said. I never -- can,
21 please, this list of casualties in Glogova that I just quoted be tendered
22 as a defence exhibit, and that it be given a number. And this document is
23 also -- it came from the confiscated documentation of the 5th Corps of the
24 army of VRS, the Sokolac collection, and she continues. But I --
25 MR. DI FAZIO: But the names mentioned and the accompanying --
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 I've got -- I followed Ms. Vidovic's evidence perfectly fine. I make no
2 complaint about that at all. It's just that she, as I understood it, was
3 looking at, referring to, and leading and taking this witness through 887
4 and 888. And that's what I thought was being --
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, but she said first she will deal with Glogova
6 and then she will deal with Hranca. So I suspect that she still has to
7 deal with Hranca. I don't know. I mean, it's -- I don't know what to
8 expect because I'm not in her mind. I don't know. Let's not complicate
9 matters, Mr. Di Fazio. I mean, I'm quite happy with this -- these four or
10 five pages being D22 and then we'll make of them what we need to at a
11 later stage.
12 Yes, Madam Vidovic.
13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm really doing my
14 best to finalise my cross-examination as soon as possible, but if we
15 proceed along these lines I am not sure I can be blamed if that doesn't
17 Q. Mr. Simic, let me go back to this document --
18 THE REGISTRAR: Yes. The map gets an exhibit number D23.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: So this will be -- the map will be D23? Yes. I'm
20 giving it back to you so that you make a photocopy of it then please.
21 Thank you.
22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
23 Q. Mr. Simic, doesn't this document that I just showed you indicate
24 that something was going on and that there was fighting in the days that
25 preceded the attack of the 8th August that you describe in your statement?
1 A. I don't understand your question. Could you please repeat it.
2 Q. The document that shows that several persons had been wounded in
3 Glogova, in your view does it confirm that there was fighting going on in
4 Glogova in those days in early August that preceded the attack of the 8th
5 of August?
6 A. It's not clear to me.
7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] All right, Your Honours. I will
8 move on with my questions.
9 Q. Mr. Simic, I will ask you about some facts relating to the attack
10 itself. Can you tell me why were the Muslims unable to enter the valley
11 of the village of Jezestica or Nova Jezestica, as it is called locally.
12 A. In my view, inasmuch as they wanted to occupy the territory they
13 did so and they could return.
14 Q. Are you trying to say that the Serbian TO did not put up any
15 resistance on the 8th of August?
16 A. Not to the same extent as the Muslims.
17 Q. What do you mean by not to that extent? To what extent did they
18 put up resistance? Will you please slow down, Mr. Simic.
19 A. There were very few of us. As I said on Brdo were very few men.
20 Q. The few men that you referred to -- so did these few men put up
21 any resistance? Did they open fire?
22 A. Yes. There were very few Serbian forces of the village defence.
23 Q. All right. Thank you. You said that you were standing on the
24 hill and that Rankovici were on one side whereas on the other side you
25 were able to have Djermani and Jezestica. Can you tell this Chamber the
1 exact name of the site from which you were able to see on both sides?
2 A. It's called Brdo, the hill. And that is the point for which I
3 could see Kijevici, Djermani and Jezestica, the hamlets, and Rankovici.
4 And after that we descended to another location from which we could see
5 Rankovici better and the name of this location is Gajice.
6 Q. You said the name of this location is Gajice?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. How many Muslim soldiers precisely did you see on the day of the
9 attack of the 8th of August?
10 A. I cannot tell you the exact number because they were moving in one
11 direction. First they set fire to one part and then they went on to
12 Rankovici and set fire to the other part.
13 Q. And, Mr. Simic, tell us approximately how many there were?
14 A. 40 or 50 men, perhaps.
15 Q. 40 or 50?
16 A. Well, as far as I can tell but there may have been more.
17 Q. Thank you, Mr. Simic. What did these men look like? How were
18 they dressed?
19 A. Some of them had camouflage uniforms, others had green uniforms
20 and there were women and children there as well.
21 Q. Were these full camouflage uniforms?
22 A. Yes, yes. They were entire uniforms.
23 Q. And what were the women and children doing?
24 A. They were carrying food off and leading off cattle and livestock.
25 Q. Mr. Simic, you were not able to see who was setting fire to the
1 villages, could you? Were you?
2 A. I could see them as soon as they left the houses. There would be
3 smoke and then it would burst into flames. And as I said on Friday, it's
4 all there as if on a plate. You can see it very easily because we were up
5 on a hill and this is in the valley.
6 Q. I will remind you that on Friday you said the following: The
7 soldiers started the fires and then the women and children went in and
8 took things, and this went on for about an hour.
9 Doesn't it seem strange to you, Mr. Simic, that first the houses
10 should be set on fire and then women and children should go in into the
11 burning houses to take things?
12 A. As I said on Friday, and I abide by that, the women and children
13 took the livestock from the barns and they collected the food. There was
14 nothing to be found inside the houses except for a little bread. That's
15 what I said on Friday and that's what I'm saying today.
16 Q. Mr. Simic, let me remind you that in your statement of the 7th of
17 April, 2001, on page 3, paragraph 2, Prosecution number 03062100, you
18 said: "I saw the Muslims setting fire to our houses. We could not see
19 the faces of those who were setting fire to the houses."
20 You did not say at that time that these were soldiers. Why have
21 you now changed your statement?
22 A. I was thinking of soldiers --
23 JUDGE AGIUS: [Previous translation continues]... Let's do this
24 the proper way. If you are referring him to a statement that he made and
25 it's also important that we follow, please let's get the statement and
1 make it available to the witness. That's the first part.
2 Secondly, again, the corresponding number, ERN number of course
3 doesn't correspond to the English version, so we need to check that as
4 well. This is the witness of -- the statement of the 7th of April. Can
5 we have the statement of the witness of the 7th of April of 2001 shown to
6 him, please.
7 MR. DI FAZIO: Your Honours, in the B/C/S version --
8 JUDGE AGIUS: I mean the B/C/S version. It's no use showing him
9 the English version. But we need to follow in the English version. And
10 in the English version which paragraph are we referring to, because in the
11 second paragraph was mentioned by Madam Vidovic on page 3, but that
12 doesn't necessarily correspond to what we have.
13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I was thinking of the
14 Bosnian version. I do apologise. When preparing my cross-examination, in
15 future I will always provide both versions.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: No, it's not you who has to provide them,
17 Madam Vidovic. I think they must be made available to the witness if he
18 is being asked to comment on the parts of his statement, then he should
19 have his statement available. But that's the registrar's --
20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] He does have it available,
21 Your Honour.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you have it in front of you -- do you have it
23 before you, Mr. Simic, or not?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do, Your Honour.
25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] May you --
1 JUDGE AGIUS: And which paragraph from the end - from this we're
2 talking of page 3 - which paragraph from the end in the Bosnian Serb
3 version would that be, counting from the last paragraph?
4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] That is the part that is
5 highlighted. I'm asking the witness to look at the highlighted part that
6 says: "At that moment I saw ..."
7 JUDGE AGIUS: I am referring to the -- I am just asking you to
8 tell me in the Bosnian Serb language, which paragraph would this be
9 starting from -- counting from the very last paragraph because we have the
10 English version here, and we don't have it highlighted of course.
11 Starting from the last --
12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this is the third
13 paragraph from the bottom or the second from the top.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, but the second from the top in your version.
15 It changes in the English version. Yes, now can you read out to the
16 witness the part you want him to comment upon, please.
17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. You said in this part: "I saw Muslims setting fire to our houses.
19 We were not able to see the faces of those who set fire to the houses."
20 A. Yes, that's correct. But they were soldiers and they were
21 Muslims. They were not Serbs. And I did say "Muslims."
22 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't see it in this paragraph.
23 MR. DI FAZIO: I see it in the English, if Your Honours please.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Which paragraph?
25 MR. DI FAZIO: It's page 3. The number 3 is partially obscured by
1 the signature. It's about midway through the first paragraph. Do you see
2 the words: "At that stage we saw the Muslims" --
3 JUDGE AGIUS: How does the paragraph start?
4 MR. DI FAZIO: The first attack on the village of --
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, but that's not three paragraphs from the end,
7 MR. DI FAZIO: No, no, it's not.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: This is the confusion. I mean, we can't go on like
10 MR. DI FAZIO: Your Honours, may I respectfully agree. If Your
11 Honours please, the problem with this is that what the witness has before
12 him is a translation of his statement. His statement was taken in English
13 and read back to him. And that's the portion that should be put to him.
14 Now, who knows if there were mistakes committed in the B/C/S translation
15 later or not. But his statement that was read back to him and he signed
16 is in English. Now, I don't see any problem with Madam Vidovic putting
17 portions from the English statement to the witness and the interpreters
18 can interpret.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Me neither.
20 MR. DI FAZIO: May I raise one other matter. I don't know if
21 Miss -- Madam Vidovic wants to try and develop this point, I'm not
22 entirely sure where she is going, but the English statement is redolent
23 with reference to Muslim forces. It's peppered throughout. Everywhere
24 you look on this statement, it's --
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Again, please don't proceed with these comments in
1 the presence of the witness.
2 MR. DI FAZIO: Very well, Your Honours, but it's a rather obvious
4 JUDGE AGIUS: But the problem is we have to find a more practical
5 way of presenting -- because this is only the beginning. I mean, we are
6 going to have an endless number of witnesses coming forward showing their
7 statements, which I agree is usually tendered in English and then
8 translated into B/C/S, and we need to follow.
9 MR. DI FAZIO: I agree, Your Honours. May I suggest that if prior
10 statements of the witness are going to be put to him then they have to
11 come from the English statement and be interpreted because that's his
12 statement. That's what was read back to him on the 7th of April, 2001, by
13 the interpreter, Marina Krstic [phoen] and she provided her certification.
14 And his acknowledgment at the end of the statement also on that date is
15 that he -- it's been read to him in Serbian and he then went ahead and
16 signed it. That's -- it may be in English, but that's what he
17 acknowledged. That's his statement, not the translation.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: All right, let's not waste more time on this. We'll
19 regulate this as we go along.
20 Yes, Madam Vidovic, please.
21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have already
22 explained that I was working on the basis of the version in Bosnian. In
23 future I will respect your wishes and I will always provide both versions.
24 For the present, I withdraw my question.
25 Q. Mr. Simic, I will now ask you something else. You remember that
1 on Friday you mentioned the village of Cumavicani. Is that correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And you said then that you heard from them that a certain Kemo had
4 taken a severed head to Srebrenica with him.
5 A. That's correct. I did hear about that.
6 Q. Who did you hear it from?
7 A. It's a village called Cumavicani near Srebrenica. It was occupied
8 on the 7th of January, 1993. I heard from -- if I have to, I will tell
9 you the name.
10 Q. I did ask you who you heard it from.
11 A. From Radinka Vujadinovic who had been taken prisoner.
12 Q. Are you trying to say, Mr. Simic, that she was in Cumavici at the
14 A. That's right. She was in Cumavici.
15 Q. In August 1992?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Is it not correct, Mr. Simic, that the exchange of the local
18 Serbian population from the village of Cumavici was carried out in June
19 1992. Do you know about that?
20 A. No, I don't. But I did hear from her and she said to me: You can
21 speak about that.
22 Q. Thank you, Mr. Simic. I will now put some question to you
23 relating to the attack on Kravica and Jezestica on the 7th of January,
24 1993. Is it not correct, Mr. Simic, that the VRS, including your units
25 which you call defence or whatever, attempted to cleanse the Eastern
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Bosnia area known as Podrinje of Muslims?
2 A. No. I'm not aware of that. It's possible, but I'm not aware of
4 Q. Is it not correct, Mr. Simic, that persistent attacks were mounted
5 on the Muslim population in which the Bratunac Brigade participated with
6 the intention of -- from the area of Bratunac, which includes the Kravica
7 area, with the intention of expelling the entire Muslim population from
8 that area?
9 A. I didn't hear about that either. I didn't see that. I can't say
10 that here. I don't know who did what.
11 Q. Mr. Simic, are you aware that the Bratunac Brigade in your area
12 carried out large combat activities with the clear aim of attacking the
13 Muslim population?
14 A. That's not clear to me either. From my house I never went far.
15 On Christmas -- on the 7th of January, 1993.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. This is not the proper answer to the
17 question that was put to you.
18 Mr. Simic, the question that was put to you was the following, it
19 did not refer to the 7th of January of 1993 or to any particular date for
20 that matter. It said: "Are you aware that the Bratunac Brigade in your
21 area carried out large combat activities with the clear aim of attacking
22 the Muslim population?" So the question was -- refer to any time, not
23 just the 7th of January. You may sit down. Sit down.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't know that.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's possible, but I neither heard
2 nor saw it.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Vidovic.
4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, would the usher please
5 put on the ELMO document starting with 00641755 entitled: "The war
6 history of Bratunac. The circumstances in Bosnia and Herzegovina before
7 the outbreak of the war." Pages 00641766 and page -- for now we'll stick
8 to this page.
9 Will the usher please show Mr. Simic page number 00641766, and I
10 am going to quote the third paragraph which reads, and I kindly ask the
11 witness to look at it and comment on it: "On the 25th of December,
12 1992" --
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Just for the record in the English version we are
14 referring to 00840182, and that's the last paragraph on page 13, what is
15 shown as page 13. And that's precisely two, four, six, eight, nine lines
16 before the bottom of the page.
17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I am going to quote. "On the 25th
18 of December, 1992, the command of the Bratunac Brigade issued an order to
19 recapture the temporarily occupied territories by the Muslim units as
20 follows: The battalion number 1 was ordered to take up positions in the
21 area of Hranca village/S. Drina TT17. The second battalion with the
22 platoon (Zenica) to take up control of the road down the Drina river and
23 down the Bratunac/Opati/Banovici [phoen] road. The third battalion to
24 organise circular defence in the area of Kravica. The Krajski [phoen]
25 Battalion shall take up the Repovac road TT422. Second section on the
1 right from the first battalion and the Bratunac/Kravica road. During the
2 day upon orders of the Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska and KDK,
3 the brigade command received the visit from the military police from the
4 protective regiment headed by Major Cavcic Milomir [phoen] whose task was
5 to control the movement of military conscripts in the town and to bring in
6 deserters to secure the Ljubovija most on the -- the Ljubovija bridge on
7 the river Drina --
8 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters note we don't have the English
10 JUDGE AGIUS: I apologise for that. If we are proceeding with
11 this document any further, will -- first of all, the witness -- let's have
12 the witness answer the question first, but you put the question basically.
13 Yeah, could you put the question, Madam Vidovic.
14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Mr. Simic, have you seen this document -- can you see that an
16 order was issued to capture the temporarily occupied territories including
17 the village of Hranca?
18 A. This is the first time that I see this.
19 Q. Can I ask you then a different question regarding this document.
20 Can the village of Hranca be considered by the Muslims as a temporarily
21 occupied territory? Were any Muslims living in Hranca prior to this time?
22 A. I don't know about that. Because I travelled there before the
23 attacks and I never went anywhere else.
24 Q. But, Mr. Simic, you just told us that Hranca was, to say the
25 least, a mixed Muslim and Serbian village in the map. It was marked with
1 green colour which indicates predominantly Muslim village. Were you aware
2 that there were Muslims living in Hranca before January 1993?
3 A. Yes, there were also -- there were both the Muslims and the Serbs.
4 Q. So including the Muslims?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. There's another question that I would like to ask you concerning
7 this document, Mr. Simic. Here there's the mention of battalions, the
8 people from Zenica. Doesn't it seem to me that, Mr. Simic, you should
9 have known about such a massive concentration of troops in the area where
10 you were living?
11 A. It was possible, but it was not in the vicinity of Jezestica where
12 I was.
13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could this document
14 please pages 00641766 -- in fact, only this page for the moment, and the
15 first page which indicates what document we are talking about be tendered
16 as Defence exhibit.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: And what about the rest? 00641767.
18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] For the moment I ask Your Honours to
19 allow this part to be tendered as evidence.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: That's going to split. Again, Madam Vidovic, you
21 are conducting the case as if it is being conducted in your own language.
22 The English translation does not correspond to the same pagination that
23 you have. In fact, if you look at the British -- the English translation,
24 we don't even have cross-reference to the B/C/S version. And the B/C/S
25 version that we have, page 00641766 seems or purports to be a continuation
1 of a previous page, which according to the papers that we were given is
2 not 765 but it's 755. So we need to know where we are.
3 We are going to break now. Deal with this -- we will admit of
4 course whatever you would like to have admitted in evidence from this
5 document, but we do not because we have to admit it in B/C/S and also in
7 Yes --
8 MR. DI FAZIO: The difficulty --
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Vidovic.
10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I don't see any
11 problem to have the whole document beginning with 00641755, including its
12 pages 00641766 and 767 be tendered as Defence exhibits. And we are going
13 to try and stick to this procedure in the future.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. That makes it better.
15 Yes, Mr. Di Fazio, did you want to remark?
16 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, there's all the matters
17 that you raised. I have nothing further to add, of course, to what
18 Your Honours have raised. But, is this a document? Is this a book?
19 Where does it come from?
20 JUDGE AGIUS: I take it it is part of the same document we had
21 before. If I recognise it. Let me just check. Yes. It is exactly
22 the -- from the same document D15. In fact, the first page has the same
23 ERN number.
24 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: But of course the pages that follow now are
2 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: So we'll have a short break of 25 minutes --
4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we received this from
5 the Prosecution.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: -- and we'll resume soon after.
7 --- Recess taken at 12.35 p.m.
8 --- On resuming at 1.04 p.m.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, Madam Vidovic, Mr. Simic, again my
10 recommendation to go slow not to disrupt the day of the interpreters and
11 the reporter. Thank you.
12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Let me just
13 check whether the last exhibit was given number D24.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Correct.
15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
16 Now, I would like to ask the usher to put on the ELMO document
17 number 0675533. That's the report by the Bratunac Brigade, strictly
18 confidential, number 119, dated the 4th of January, 1994, addressed to the
19 command of the Drina Corps.
20 Q. Mr. Simic --
21 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. Because you said "1994." I think you
22 should have said "1993."
23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, 1993. I wasn't aware of having
24 said "1994." So the 4th of January, 1993. Could the witness please look
25 at the quote under number 2, and it reads in the report that:
1 "Our forces are conducting operations along the Valjevo, Vinjista,
2 Kravica, and the Veljko, Glogova, Vradusic [phoen], Petkovici, i
3 Brezaksanici [phoen] - sonic [phoen] TT403, Vinjista axis.
4 Q. Can you see this part of the document, Mr. Simic?
5 A. Yes, I do, but I don't know about it.
6 Q. My question was whether you know that the surrounding Muslim
7 population was attacked on the 4th of January, 1993 by the Bratunac
9 A. I didn't hear of any attack taking place on that date.
10 Q. Mr. Simic, please look at the last sentence of item 2 of this
11 document which reads: "The operation continued on the 4th of January,
12 1993, until full capturing of the Bratunac/Kravica road."
13 Therefore, Mr. Simic, this was an extensive operation. How was it
14 possible that you knew nothing about this?
15 A. It is possible. I heard shooting, but I don't know who did what
16 and I think that was an exchange of fire. But I was not involved in that
17 and I don't know anything about that.
18 Q. Thank you.
19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can document number
20 00675533, the Bratunac Brigade's report, strictly confidential, number
21 119, dated the 4th of January, 1993, addressed to the command of the Drina
22 Corps be admitted as the Defence exhibit?
23 JUDGE AGIUS: It is so admitted and it will be marked exhibit D25.
24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would kindly ask now the usher to
25 put on the ELMO document number 01321055 and immediately thereafter
1 document number 01321054. The document number 01321055 is entitled: "The
2 list of the wounded on the 5th of January, 1993."
3 Q. Please, Mr. Simic, can you look at this list. Isn't it true that
4 this document demonstrates that seven Serbian soldiers were wounded on the
5 5th of January, 1993? Isn't it also true that behind each of these names
6 there's an indication of the unit that they belonged to? Can you please
7 look at number 1 on the list.
8 A. I am not familiar with this name.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's mention the name please because we have got
10 two pages here --
11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] The question is Nedeljko, father's
12 name Djuric, Nenad, born in 1966, Krajina battalion. So the point of my
13 question was: Does it read here the Krajina battalion?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I haven't heard of that, but it's
16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. All right. Now I will draw your attention to the following
18 document entitled: "The list of the wounded on the 6th of January," and
19 that it shows the names of Cvijana Obackic and Mladjena Jovanovic. Both
20 were wounded in Glogova. Is that correct, Mr. Simic? You don't -- these
21 names don't mean anything to you?
22 A. No, I am not familiar with these names.
23 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please I object to the manner in
24 which this document is being used. The witness says he doesn't know about
25 this document. I don't mind Madam Vidovic showing him the document and
1 then asking him about the contents of the document. Do you know Stojan?
2 Do you know Petrovic? Was he in the 1st Battalion. Was he wounded, in
3 fact. I don't mind that sort of thing, but it's not being approached in
4 that fashion. And it should be in the Prosecution's submission. He
5 doesn't know --
6 JUDGE AGIUS: On the other hand, Mr. Di Fazio, if we were to
7 change place you will do exactly what I am doing, intervening the least
8 possible, because otherwise it will become a never-ending story.
9 MR. DI FAZIO: The only reason -- I realise, if Your Honours
10 please, it's causing no harm to the Prosecution because all we have to do
11 is come back and say to Your Honours that our latter -- pointing -- you
12 knew nothing about this document.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: It will take more time if we direct counsel to put
14 questions differently. The fact is that I think the witness himself is
15 understanding what is being required from him because he is giving the
16 answer: I know or I don't know these persons.
17 Yes, Madam Vidovic.
18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Now I'm going to ask the witness
19 something about this particular document.
20 Q. Mr. Simic, were you aware that these units, the 4th Zenica
21 Battalion and the people from Loznica, which is in Serbia, were involved
22 in the fighting in the area of Glogova which was your neighbourhood and
23 that was on the 6th of January on the eve of the attack?
24 A. No, I know nothing about that nor had I heard of it. I cannot
25 confirm anything here that I know nothing about and I heard nothing about.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Q. Mr. Simic, on the 6th of January and the 5th of January, that is
2 before the 7th of January attack, did you hear any shooting taking place
3 in the villages around you, Jezestica and Kravica I mean?
4 A. I can tell you that there was shooting coming from all sides, from
5 the Muslim side and from the Serbian side. But what you are implying here
6 I never heard of these men nor do I know them.
7 Q. All right, Mr. Simic. Thank you. I kindly ask the Chamber that
8 these documents pages 01321055 and 01321054 be given exhibit numbers.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. They are being admitted as marked. I take it
10 if I don't hear an objection from your part, we proceed?
11 MR. DI FAZIO: That's right.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: They are being -- these pages are being tendered and
13 marked as document D26.
14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Mr. Simic, in your testimony on Friday you said and mentioned that
16 people were killed during the attack on Jezestica and Kravica on the 7th
17 of January, 1993. Is that correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I kindly ask the usher to put on the
20 ELMO document number RR322082.
21 Can the witness please look at this list which says: "The list of
22 the killed fighters from the Kravica area." So the list of the fighters
23 who were killed from the area of Kravica.
24 Q. Is it true that there are 34 fighters here including men from
25 Jezestica? Can you please look carefully at this document. There are
1 columns: Name and the place of residence.
2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] And can the usher please, yes, move
3 it a little bit upwards so we can see the full list. Thank you.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In my statement I said that I don't
5 know, but I heard about the people from Kravica. I know that people were
6 collected from Jezestica, and that is what I said in my statement. I did
7 hear, though, that about 30, 32, or 34 of them were killed on the 7th of
8 January, 1993, in the vicinity of Kravica. And as I said in my statement,
9 those men were gathered there, but I never saw them. I know that they
10 were in Jezestica and that in the hamlet of Jezestica five brothers were
11 killed and there was also some family members killed and that made up this
12 number of 35 or 36. And that was in the period since -- between the 8th
13 of August, 1992, until the 7th of January, 1993.
14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. My question was: Mr. Simic, were the fighters from Jezestica also
16 mentioned in this list?
17 A. Yes, there are fighters but there are also civilians.
18 Q. Mr. Simic, can you please look very carefully at this list and
19 tell us who among these people is a civilian.
20 A. From Kravica I said I don't know these people and how many of them
21 were killed and who of them were civilians or fighters. I can tell you
22 about --
23 Q. Among this list which says: "The list of fighters," can you tell
24 me who among these people were civilians.
25 A. These are all from Jezestica?
1 Q. Yes.
2 A. I can't see very clearly.
3 Q. Please take a look, Mr. Simic, at the column in the middle. There
4 are many names originally from Jezestica. I am just reading what it says
5 here in this document. So there are plenty of names of people from
6 Jezestica. Please look at their age.
7 Mr. Simic, can you please answer this question.
8 A. I can see that there were four civilians from Jezestica. The rest
9 were all fighters.
10 Q. Can you point out these names.
11 A. Risto Ostojic was a fighter. Ostojic, Mitar, was a fighter,
12 Radovan Pavlovic, I don't know about him; Kostadin Pavlovic, I also don't
13 know about him; Vojo Radovic; Gojko Radovic, I don't know about those
15 Q. In other words --
16 JUDGE AGIUS: This is unnecessarily confusing and compounding the
17 matter in an unbelievable manner. The question was very simple. Amongst
18 the persons on this list which in column 4 supposedly came from Jezestica,
19 do you see any names that you can confirm to us as being civilians and not
20 fighters. At a certain moment I heard you say or at least the
21 interpretation that reached us was: Yes there are four. Could I have the
22 names of those four, and then if necessary check the rest. But could you
23 give us the names of those four first. Which are the four gentlemen from
24 Jezestica that were not fighters but according to you were civilians who
25 were killed on the 7th of January, 1993, in the Kravica area?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Let me just take a look at this
2 list. Last name Djukanovic, that was a female. Krsto Djukanovic, we used
3 to call him Kidjo, he was freed. That's what I heard about him. And
4 there was --
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Was he freed or was he killed? Because this is
6 supposedly what I have here, if it has been translated properly, is a list
7 of persons, fighters, who were killed in the Kravica area on the 7th of
8 January of 1993. And who is the female, because under Bukanovic, Ivan,
9 and I see Hrsto [phoen]. Hrsto. None of them are a woman. At least if
10 I -- I don't know your language, but I can understand enough of it.
11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, there are no women's
12 names here, at least I did not see any and I have studied the list
14 JUDGE AGIUS: You are going to make me turn into a dentist,
15 Mr. Simic. I will do it the only way that will get me there. Number 3
16 Bogicevic, Radojko, do you know if he was a civilian or not.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was a fighter and he was killed.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Number 10, Jovanovic, Radomir.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was a fighter and he was killed.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Number 11, Miladinovic, Ratko.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was also a fighter and he was
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Radinovic, Djordjo.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was a fighter and he was killed.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Milanovic, Nedjo.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was a fighter and he was killed.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Milanovic, Dragan.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was a fighter and he was killed.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Ostojic, Milan.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was a fighter and he was killed.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Ostojic, Mitar, number 19.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was exempt but he was killed on
8 the 7th of January. He was at home.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So number 32, Bukanovic, Bosko --
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Bosko Djukanovic.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Bosko.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was exempt but he was also
13 killed. He was killed at his home.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Djukanovic, Ivan.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was a fighter and he was killed.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: And Djukanovic, Krsto.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was exempt and he was killed at
18 his home.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Does that answer your question,
20 Madam Vidovic? Let's proceed to the next question. One moment, I
21 apologise to Judge Eser. Judge Eser has been drawing my attention, had a
22 question. Please go ahead.
23 JUDGE ESER: My question is related to this list. You have been
24 speaking of fighter, at least in the English translation. Or do you mean
25 this fighter, does it mean to be a soldier, and if so, a soldier of what?
1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] This is a document of the Bratunac
2 Brigade and it is a list of killed fighters referring to soldiers from the
3 Kravica area. When the witness says "exempt" I assume he means exempt
4 from military service. However, this document does not mention any such.
5 It simply says that there are lists of fighters killed in the Kravica
7 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. But the translation of the word --
8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] [In English] It's killed fighters.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Fighters. It's fighters and not soldiers. That's
10 the combatants, in other words.
11 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, I rather thought that the
12 witness might answer Judge Eser's question rather than Madam Vidovic.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no, but the question was more related to
14 basically whether the use of the word "fighter" on the document on the
15 English version is the correct translation of the corresponding word in
16 B/C/S or whether it should be "soldier." And it is obvious that we've got
17 the answer. It's not "soldier" but "fighter." I take it as combatant.
18 MR. DI FAZIO: I see.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Have you finished with this document?
20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I move that the
21 document be given an exhibit number.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: So it's being tendered and accepted as document D27.
23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I have another question in
24 connection with this for Mr. Simic.
25 Q. Mr. Simic, does the fact that many people were killed at that time
1 indicate that there was fierce fighting in Jezestica between the Serb and
2 Muslim forces?
3 A. Yes, there was a large-scale attack by the Muslim forces. There
4 was firing on all sides. We saw that there was nothing we could do and
5 began to withdraw.
6 Q. Thank you. My question was whether your fighters participated in
7 the combat, the ones who were killed. Did they mount any resistance? Did
8 they shoot?
9 A. Well, it depends. Some were withdrawing and were killed while
10 withdrawing, while retreating; they were by the road, at least that's what
11 I heard. I didn't go to see for myself. I stayed at my home.
12 Q. Very well. Thank you, Mr. Simic.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. One moment Madam Vidovic. I think at this
14 point, Mr. Wubben, I would suggest that you send your next witness home.
15 At the same time, Madam Vidovic, I'm making it clear that you need to
16 finish, conclude, your cross-examination before the end of the day. We
17 will not proceed with this witness tomorrow, in other words. Thank you.
18 And please do convey the apologies of the Chamber to your witness
19 and I will then apologise to her in public tomorrow morning.
20 MR. WUBBEN: We will do, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
22 Yes, let's proceed.
23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
24 I would like to ask the usher to put on the ELMO the photograph of
25 Mr. Simic's house. Prosecution Exhibit Number -- it was exhibited on
1 Friday. Thank you.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: For the record we are looking at 01087849. Correct
3 me if I'm wrong. This is the photo with the writing on it, no? Could we
4 have it on the ELMO, please.
5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Mr. Simic, very briefly, please give me a very brief reply, you
7 can see certain letters, four Cyrillic letters, S. Do you think this is
8 short for "only unity will save the Serbs"?
9 A. It's possible. When I got back I saw this there.
10 Q. Thank you, Mr. Simic. In connection with this I will put a
11 question to you. Isn't it correct, Mr. Simic, that after the fighting you
12 testified about on the 7th of January, 1993, in Kravica, there followed
13 large-scale combat activities in the Kravica area?
14 A. Everything is possible but I didn't see it. I was fleeing. While
15 I was fleeing I saw there were forces there but I didn't see anything
16 else. We had wounded there. We were taking them away.
17 Q. I will put the question a little differently. Is it correct,
18 Mr. Simic, that the Serb forces took large-scale offensive action in the
19 area of Jezestica, Kravica, and other villages during January, February,
20 and March 1993? You should know that.
21 A. I don't understand this. What forces? Serbian forces?
22 Q. Yes, Serb forces.
23 A. Serb forces. Again, I can tell you that every day you heard
24 shooting on all sides. Nobody knew.
25 Q. That's precisely what I am asking you. So there were battles?
1 A. Yes, there were battles on both sides. Yes.
2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Would the usher now put on the ELMO
3 a document issued by the command of the Bratunac Brigade, strictly
4 confidential, number 290 through 93.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Is there going to be a re-examination on your part,
6 Mr. Di Fazio?
7 MR. DI FAZIO: I know what Your Honours -- want this witness to
8 finish today.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, of course, and I have to regulate the time
11 MR. DI FAZIO: I've got a number of issues that I think I can get
12 down to 2 --
13 JUDGE AGIUS: How much minutes, I'm talking of time?
14 MR. DI FAZIO: Five to eight minutes.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: That doesn't leave us with anything else. We are
16 going to put our foot down. You have played literally into this, perhaps
17 without wanting it, but you have literally tied our hands. We will be
18 imposing time limits.
19 MR. DI FAZIO: I can --
20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour --
21 JUDGE AGIUS: You need to finish in not more than five minutes.
22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.
23 Would the usher put on the ELMO Bratunac Brigade document 290/93
24 dated the 11th of February, 1993, 01331793.
25 Q. Mr. Simic, would you please look at this document, item 2 of the
1 daily combat report reads as follows: "Our forces, the focus of
2 activities in the Banovici/Kravica area where the battalion attacked.
3 This 3rd Infantry Battalion, sir, this is the one where your name is
4 listed as having received a salary in November. It also says:
5 "The enemy strongly resisted in this direction."
6 Have you seen this document now?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. In connection with this, I will ask you: Is it possible that the
9 destruction of the Kravica area including Jezestica, bearing in mind the
10 graffiti on your house occurred after the 7th of January, 1992, during
11 this fierce fighting?
12 A. I don't know when the graffiti was put on my house. I know it
13 wasn't there when I left it on the 7th of January, but it was there when I
14 came back.
15 Q. Thank you. But will you please answer just the following
16 question: Is it not correct that you returned to your house together with
17 the Serbian army after it had again retaken Kravica?
18 A. I returned, as I said in my statement, until I heard from Miladin
19 Bogdanovic that there was a commission. And then I came to the military
20 department in Bratunac but I went to Zvornik.
21 Q. Thank you. Just one more question. Did the Serbian army fight to
22 retake Kravica during the second half of January, February, and March
24 A. I don't know that.
25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I have no
1 further questions. This document of the Bratunac Brigade may be given an
2 exhibit number, please.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, it's admitted as document D28. Thank you.
4 You have not more than five minutes, Mr. Di Fazio.
5 Re-examined by Mr. Di Fazio:
6 MR. DI FAZIO: Very limited. Let's just try and be a little
7 precise about some things at least.
8 Q. Mr. Simic, a question just put do you a matter of seconds ago by
9 Madam Vidovic: Is it not correct that you returned to your house together
10 with the Serbian army after it had retaken Kravica. You said you returned
11 and then went on. Did you or did not return with the Serbian army or did
12 you return by yourself, that is not as part of the Serbian army?
13 A. No, I was not part of the Serbian army.
14 Q. Thank you.
15 MR. DI FAZIO: Can the witness be shown D27.
16 Q. First of all let me ask you while the document is being presented
17 to you: A gentleman named Nedjo Milanovic, you know him, from the
18 Jezestica rea apparently. Do you know him?
19 A. Nedjo Milanovic?
20 Q. Number 13 on the list. Look at number 13 on the list. Cast your
21 eye down, go straight down. Number 13, Nedjo Milanovic, do you see him?
22 Very quickly, do you see him there?
23 A. Yes, he was killed.
24 Q. Thanks. Now, he was born in 1937. That makes him about 67 years
25 of age in 1992. Was he much of a fighter, as far as you can recall.
1 MR. JONES: I think my learned friend misstated the age. The math
2 is wrong.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: I agree with you.
4 MR. JONES: 56.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Exactly. It makes a difference
6 MR. DI FAZIO:
7 Q. In -- go down to number 19 Mitar Ostojic, was he a young man in
8 1992? He was born in 1934. However old he was in 1992, was he a
9 relatively young man or not?
10 A. I wouldn't know that. That Mitar Ostojic, he was exempt from the
11 village guard, at least that's what I heard because he was ill.
12 Q. All right. What about Krsto Bukanovic, number 34, how old was he?
13 Was he an old man in 1992?
14 A. He was also exempt due to illness. He was at home and he was
15 killed on the 7th of January.
16 Q. This purports to be a list of fighters from the Kravica area.
17 Tell the Trial Chamber if you ever saw Krsto Bukanovic clamouring up hills
18 with a gun, did you ever see such a sight? Did you hear my question?
19 A. Bukanovic had his own rifle and he was at home.
20 Q. Yeah, but my question is this: Did you ever see him in 1992 going
21 out on patrol carrying guns, shooting at people, anything that might
22 indicate in any sense at all, in any sense of the word, that he was a
24 A. No, no, I didn't see him do that.
25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, objection. The
1 Prosecutor is asking about 1992. This list is from 1993.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. It doesn't really make a difference. We're
3 talking about the same -- I'm surprised you asked him about Krsto and not
4 about Bosko who was born in 1928.
5 MR. DI FAZIO: I missed him.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, okay. But, again, it's a question of having
7 the eagle eyes or not, Mr. Di Fazio.
8 Judge Brydensholt would like to put a question to you, Mr. Simic.
9 Questioned by the Court:
10 JUDGE BRYDENSHOLT: Yes. Before you left your home on the 7th of
11 January, 1993, was there any change made in order to make it easier
12 defensible, any kind of fortification? Did you change anything regarding
13 the doors or the windows or anything?
14 A. As I said, Your Honour, the house was set on fire and it was
15 gutted. There are still some remains.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Again, I don't know whether it's a question of
17 interpretation or not, but you didn't answer the question. The question
18 that Judge -- do you allow me, Judge Brydensholt, to repeat your question
19 or would you like to repeat it?
20 JUDGE BRYDENSHOLT: No.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: The question was a simple one. On the 7th of
22 January before you left, before you abandoned your home, your house, did
23 you in any way try to protect it in any way by building barricades or by
24 closing and barricading windows or doors? Did you try to protect it in
25 any way or did you just close it and leave it?
1 A. When I left I closed the door.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: I hope so.
3 A. I didn't do anything else. I left.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.
5 JUDGE BRYDENSHOLT: But have you in the time before done any
6 changes in order to make it easier to defend -- to use this as some sort
7 of defence? Barricade the doors or barricade the windows before the
8 attack? That's my question.
9 A. No, no.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
11 Judge Eser.
12 JUDGE ESER: Mr. Simic, I would like to come back to the time
13 before the first attack when you established the village guard. What had
14 been the reasons for establishing such a guard?
15 A. The reasons were, Your Honour, that everybody had to protect his
16 own house, otherwise they would set it alight.
17 JUDGE ESER: Against whom? There must have been a reason why you
18 thought it necessary to protect yourself and your houses.
19 A. The reason was so that the village would not be burned down. You
20 had to stay by your house.
21 JUDGE ESER: But why had it been a threat that your village may be
22 burnt down? Had there been some sort of controversy, animosity, with
23 certain people in your area?
24 A. Yes, between the Serbs and the Muslims because I was working in
25 Belgrade and when I got back they said - that was on the 12th of March -
1 they said you have to stay here because the village guard is being
2 organised, so I had to stay.
3 JUDGE ESER: But if I remember correctly you told us that you did
4 not know of any events going on in Glogova, for instance.
5 A. No. Your Honours, nobody told me anything. I didn't hear about
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
8 Thank you, Judge Brydensholt. Thank you, Judge Eser. Thank you,
9 Mr. Di Fazio and Madam Vidovic.
10 Mr. Simic, this brings us to the end of your testimony. You're
11 free to go now back to where you came from or where you would like to
12 return. On behalf of the Tribunal and also on behalf of Judge Brydensholt
13 and Judge Eser and also on my own behalf I should like to thank you for
14 coming over to give evidence in this trial. You will be escorted out of
15 the courtroom by the usher and you will be attended to by the rest of the
16 staff of the Tribunal to make things easy for you to return home. Should
17 you encounter any problems, please do let us know. Once more, thank you
18 and we wish you a safe journey back home.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Assuming that there is no further business to deal
21 with, I bring this session to an end. We have overstepped our time limit
22 by about six minutes. Once more I thank the staff, the interpreters, the
23 technicians, the reporter, everyone present anyway for having being
24 indulgent with us for having stayed with us, operated, to have these extra
25 five or six minutes. Tomorrow we'll start with the new witness. She
1 hasn't got any protective measures in place, if I remember well, no?
2 MR. WUBBEN: No, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: We'll start at 9.00 in the morning. Thank you. And
4 I understand it, you have withdrawn all documents that you meant
5 originally to use with that witness, no?
6 MR. WUBBEN: That's correct, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.
8 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.52 p.m.,
9 to be reconvened on Thursday the 21st day of
10 October, 2004, at 9.00 a.m.