1 Wednesday, 27 October 2004
2 [Open session]
3 --- Upon commencing at 9.17 a.m.
4 [The accused entered court]
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Mr. Registrar, could you call the case,
7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, case number IT-03-68-T, the
8 Prosecutor versus Naser Oric.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Good morning, Mr. Oric.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Can you follow the proceedings in a language that
12 you can understand?
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, I can.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. Appearances, Prosecution.
15 MS. SELLERS: Good morning, Your Honours, I'm Patricia Sellers
16 representing the Prosecution today. With me is co-counsel Joanne
17 Richardson, and our case manager Donnica Henry-Frijlink will join us in a
18 couple of seconds.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Wubben is claustrophobic.
20 MS. SELLERS: Yes. And I think he's also proofing one of the
21 witnesses for tomorrow.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Appearances for Naser Oric.
23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour. I'm
24 Vasvija Vidovic. Together with Mr. John Jones we are representing
25 Mr. Naser Oric, and we have our legal assistant. Ms. Jasmina Cosic, and
1 our CaseMap manager Mr. Geoff Roberts.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. And good morning to you and your team
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Any preliminaries? No.
5 A couple of -- there is this motion that was referred to yesterday
6 by Ms. Sellers and that has arrived. That's a Prosecution motion for the
7 testimony of witnesses via video-conference link planned for the 24th and
8 the 25th of November.
9 Have you had time to consider it by any chance, or do you require
10 more time?
11 MR. JONES: Thank you, Your Honour. We've received a copy this
12 morning. We have reviewed it, and we will be filing a response opposing
13 the motion.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Please try to file it as early as possible so
15 that we decide on it before I go to where I need to go.
16 MR. JONES: Yes, indeed, Your Honour. We'll try to file it by the
17 end of this week or before then in any event.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you. The other matter is to our
19 surprise we read through the correspondence that has been exchanged
20 between you on the examination of Mr. -- that person anyway. I prefer not
21 to mention his name for the time being. And about the appointment of a
22 medical doctor.
23 We don't like the way this has, you know, developed into -- into a
24 causus belli when the whole exercise arose out of a recommendation that we
25 made to try and agree amongst yourselves to seek the most economic and --
1 the most economic way of dealing with this problem rather than have the
2 Tribunal involve itself in -- in money, appointing experts and the whole
3 formality. You agree on a doctor. You obviously hasn't come to an
4 agreement. In addition, it has also become a causus belli and a
5 temperature gauge to an extent of pleasures or unpleasures, this pleasure
6 is yet to come. So I think that if we do not have a definitive answer
7 from you by latest tomorrow morning, then we will ask the Registrar to
8 appoint a doctor himself. So -- yes, Ms. Sellers.
9 MS. SELLERS: Excuse me, Your Honour. I would like to state in
10 court that we received the latest Defence letter yesterday. The Defence
11 provided a copy for us, or we received the copy that came through the
12 mail, and we both acknowledged that it was a copy that had been
13 unnecessarily delayed within the internal post, and the Defence and I have
14 reached an agreement where we will now try and fax.
15 So putting apart the issue of the correspondence having taken
16 almost a week to get to us, the Prosecution was in a position yesterday to
17 read that last letter. We are formulating an answer right now, and in the
18 interests of practical efficiency and that we would like to move this
19 issue forward, we would like our witnesses to be examined so that they can
20 submit 92 bis (C) statements. We will be formulating a letter - we've
21 already drafted it, it has to be finalised - accepting the Defence offer
22 for their doctor. We would only point out that we regret some of the
23 language that has been used in the prior correspondence in terms of
24 political or ethnic background.
25 Our interest is can we please have the witness examined and might
1 we please reach a final resolution on our 92 bis (C) motion which has now
2 been outstanding for almost a month. But just to inform Your Honours of
4 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you. So basically do we take it
5 that we can proceed with appointing -- not appointing ourselves, that you
6 together could write a joint letter to this letter or the Victims and
7 Witnesses Unit could inform this person? I don't know who is going to
8 appoint him. We would be happy to receive a certificate from him, whoever
9 commissions him.
10 So the idea was to have both of you do that without involving the
11 Tribunal in any -- in any expense. So if there is a way of doing it --
12 MR. JONES: I think a joint letter could certainly be done.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I think so, if that is okay with you.
14 MS. SELLERS: Your Honours, I don't think the Prosecution anyway
15 would see any harm in having not only a joint letter and possibly an
16 agreement on a joint procedure. And to our point of view it would be very
17 important that we could set a deadline so this report could be before Your
18 Honours and we could resolve the issue.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. But that -- in the joint letter you can
20 actually say -- let's do it in a different manner, because this person
21 will need to be paid and although -- and if payment is to be made partly
22 or in full by the Tribunal in any case or by the Office of the Prosecutor,
23 I think you need to have something in hand which would -- which would
24 testify that -- that the Tribunal can proceed with paying this person.
25 MS. SELLERS: Certainly. We would try and do that.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: So what I would suggest is -- is Ms. Rydberg here?
2 No. We could get --
3 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Basically I think what remains to be done is to
5 establish -- in Brdjanin this used to be quite -- quite common and also
6 easy to arrive at. To agree amongst yourself as to a protocol to follow
7 on this issue, right? Whether it should be a joint letter, whether it
8 should be one of you who would communicate, but on the understanding that
9 the communication would be that this is something joint, that he is a
10 person that has been -- he or she, I mean, is -- Senadine [phoen]. That
11 he is a person that has been agreed upon by both -- by both parties and
12 that for this you would need also to agree with him what his fees will be
13 and then reach a protocol amongst you as to who is going to pay the cost.
14 And then we can endorse it in a formal document without nominating him
15 ourselves, because nominating him ourselves entails a special process. He
16 would be an expert, and that would involve the Tribunal in a special
17 procedure that needs to be followed. Like this will be all -- not evaded,
18 but it would be a practical alternative which would put in place the
19 exercise earlier and at much lesser cost. Right?
20 MS. SELLERS: Yes. Your Honour will propose that the Prosecution
21 meet with the Defence after court today to try and move this forward as
22 rapidly as possible.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. And we would be happy to accommodate whichever
24 protocol you decide -- you decide upon. But it's -- it's something that
25 you ought to agree upon. I mean, without any major problems.
1 So we can bring in the witness. I understand that the witness has
2 got a problem. I would just -- let's go into private session for a while.
3 You can bring in the witness in the meantime. Yes.
4 [Private session]
19 [Open session]
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, all right. Let's go into private session for a
22 [Private session]
5 [Open session]
6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are in open session.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Good morning, madam.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Welcome to this Tribunal.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: This morning you will be giving evidence in this
12 case in the proceedings the Tribunal has instituted against Naser Oric.
13 Our Rules require that before giving evidence you enter a solemn
14 declaration in the sense that in the course of your testimony you will be
15 speaking the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. The text
16 of the solemn declaration is contained in a -- on a piece of paper that
17 Madam Usher has just given to you. I would invite you now to stand up and
18 read it out aloud, and that will be your solemn undertaking with us. It
19 is the equivalent of an oath.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
21 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. Please take your chair.
23 WITNESS: NOVKA BOZIC
24 [Witness answered through interpreter]
25 JUDGE AGIUS: You are now going to be asked a series of questions
1 by Ms. Richardson, who I suppose you have met already. She will then be
2 followed by Mr. Jones, who is appearing for Naser Oric. I would like you
3 to answer all questions as briefly as possible but also as fully as
4 possible and certainly as truthfully as best, to the best of your
5 knowledge. And when you say all questions, I mean questions which
6 Ms. Richardson will put to you and questions which Mr. Jones will put to
7 you. There is no distinction here between the Prosecution and the
8 Defence. They have both got the right to ask you questions, and your
9 responsibility under the law is to answer truthfully and fully.
10 Did understand me?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. And I will tell you what I
12 know, and also it depends on how much I've forgotten. It's been 12 years
13 since then.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I thank you, madam.
15 Ms. Richardson, you can proceed, and you can lead the witness on
16 the preliminary things so that we go faster.
17 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
19 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you.
20 Examined by Ms. Richardson:
21 Q. Ms. Bozic, please confirm that you were born in 1948, you are a
22 married Serb woman with four children, and that you and your husband are
23 farmers for a living.
24 A. Yes, yes.
25 Q. And you live in the hamlet of Radijevici, and this is the village
1 of Boljevici, municipality of Bratunac?
2 A. Yes. Yes.
3 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please be asked to wait until
4 the question is finished. Thank you.
5 MS. RICHARDSON:
6 Q. How long have you resided in Radijevici?
7 A. I came to Radijevici when I got married in 1966.
8 Q. And this is a -- a Serb village?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And how many houses are in your hamlet of Radijevici?
11 A. Perhaps about 25 or 26 houses, but there are a lot of people who
12 have left, Serbs who had houses there, whose children had left. So there
13 were some empty houses as well. That's about how many of us there were.
14 Q. And the surrounding village -- villages of Radijevici, could you
15 tell us what the ethnic make-up is? Is this Serb or Muslim villages?
16 A. The villages around Radijevici are mostly Serb villages, but there
17 is also a Muslim village. It was called Zanjevo.
18 Q. And how far was Zanjevo -- is Zanjevo?
19 A. From our village?
20 Q. Yes.
21 A. About -- not much. There's another village there, Dijovici, which
22 is even closer to Zanjevici. So it's Radijevici, Dijovici and then after
23 that Zanjevo, but it's not very far away. I don't really know how to tell
24 you in kilometres. It's not something that I ever bothered to find out,
25 but it's all very close.
1 Q. Okay. Could you tell us in a matter of -- by minutes how far --
2 how long it would take you to go from your hamlet to the closest Serb
4 A. The closest Serb village to us on one side is Dijovici, and on the
5 other side is Boljevici. It's all very close. Practically the houses run
6 on. It's maybe about ten or 20 minutes away.
7 Q. Okay. I would like to bring your attention to October 1992. Were
8 you in your hamlet in that month, during that month?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And specifically did anything happen in that month?
11 A. What happened was that it was autumn. It was the 5th of October.
12 We were there. Those of us who were in the village, we were gathering the
13 corn in the fields. It was autumn. We were doing the farming work
14 appropriate to that time of the year.
15 Q. And were you with anyone?
16 A. You mean in the field, when I was in the field. There was my
17 husband and my mother-in-law, because of this attack, when this happened.
18 Q. And when you say "attack," could you tell us exactly what time did
19 the attack take place?
20 A. The date was the 5th of October, but I don't know what time it
21 was. I didn't have a watch. We were working in the field, so perhaps it
22 was around noon.
23 Q. And could you tell us -- could you inform Your Honours how you
24 were aware, what made you aware that your hamlet was under attack.
25 A. Well, we were in the field, and we were gathering the crop, and
1 then suddenly there was firing, shooting broke out, and I don't know.
2 There was shooting. We ran out of the field, and then when we looked, we
3 could see smoke from the neighbouring village of Boljevici. This is a
4 little bit further away, but you could see it because it was a plane from
5 the fields, the valley of the Drina. You could then see Popovici and
6 these other villages. You could see smoke, and then burning and then we
7 realised that there was an attack going on. There was nothing else we
8 could think of.
9 Q. Could you tell us the direction that the attack came from?
10 A. Yes, I can tell you. Our houses are just below the woods. The
11 villages are all below the woods. The woods are at an elevation, and then
12 from the woods we could hear shooting and shouts.
13 Q. And what villages are closest to those woods? Are they Muslim or
14 Serb villages?
15 A. These were all Serb villages that were closer to the woods except
16 for Zanjevo. Zanjevo is also close. But it was all really mixed. All
17 the villages were -- actually, all the villages were Serb villages except
18 for this one village of Zanjevo, which was a Muslim village.
19 Q. And did -- did the shooting come from the direction of the Muslim
21 A. Well, we were in the fields, and as far as I could see, the woods
22 were above our houses, so the shooting came from the woods. As you go
23 along further towards Fakovici, that's where that village was, and then
24 further along there are more Serb villages.
25 Q. Now, you just testified that you heard shooting. Were you able to
1 hear anything else or see anything else?
2 A. Well, I heard firing. I could hear shouts. I could hear them
3 shouting up from the woods, "Catch them alive."
4 Q. And did you hear them say anything else?
5 A. Well, we -- we could hear them shouting, "Catch the Chetniks
7 Q. Could you see who they were? Were they civilian or soldiers, the
9 A. I was in the fields. We were in the fields down there, and my son
10 came to help us pick the corn but then he went home to have lunch. And
11 then when the firing broke out, I ran towards the house just to see
12 whether he had heard what was going on and for him to come out so that we
13 could flee.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: That's not answering the question that was put to
15 you. The question was: Could you see who they were? Were they civilians
16 or soldiers, the attackers?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I started going, I didn't
18 really reach the house. My son had heard what was going on, and I could
19 see him running out. And near another house I saw several of them, and
20 they were in uniform.
21 MS. RICHARDSON:
22 Q. And were they doing anything at this other house that you just
23 mentioned, the soldiers?
24 A. When I could see my son coming out of the house and I saw them, we
25 started to run towards the Drina, but I could see that smoke was coming
1 from that house, that it was set on fire, that it was burning, but I
2 didn't see much else. We started to run, and we were running in the
3 direction of the Drina.
4 Q. And when you got to the Drina, could you tell us what you -- did
5 you encounter anyone at the Drina, other people?
6 A. I met some of our folks who were out in the fields, that's all.
7 Some of them were running away next to the banks, and they were hiding.
8 And I also met my brother.
9 Q. And did you have a conversation with your brother?
10 A. Yes, I did. I asked him where his children were. I didn't know
11 that the children had crossed over to this side, because they were in
12 Serbia. They had left. Some people had sheltered their children, sent
13 them away across the Drina.
14 Q. Did he tell you anything else?
15 A. He said that the children stayed at home, and my mother. And he
16 was going to see what was going on with the children, and he could see
17 that the house was surrounded by soldiers. So he didn't dare approach and
18 see what was happening with them, but instead started to run towards the
20 Q. Now, while you were -- where does your mother live? Where is this
21 house you just referred to? What village or which hamlet?
22 A. Well, that was in Dijovici. Dijovici, over there.
23 Q. While you were at the Drina River, were you able to see villagers
24 from any other hamlet or any other village other than the ones you just
25 mentioned, you just testified to?
1 A. Yes. Our folks from the village, that's whom I saw. Those
2 villages are very close by, and everyone tried to run towards the
3 Drina River. You couldn't just walk at your own pace. You had to run
4 fast to try to take cover, as fast as you could, because there was a lot
5 of shooting going on.
6 Q. Could you see the other villages from the Drina, from where you
8 A. Who do you mean?
9 Q. When you -- when you arrived at the Drina, were you able to see
10 what was going on in the other villages that are close to where you were?
11 A. No. I couldn't see what was going on in the other villages
12 because people had fled. They were running all over the place. You could
13 see smoke rising from houses, houses burning. So that's as much as I was
14 able to see.
15 Q. Could you tell where these houses were, which villages these
16 houses were in that you could see the smoke?
17 A. We were out in the field, and I saw the smoke in Bonovici [phoen],
18 in Popovici. Those were the villages nearby, the villages that we could
19 see from our field. So that's what I saw, those specific houses and smoke
20 rising from them. But as for the rest, I wasn't really paying attention.
21 I was running and I wasn't paying attention to whose specific houses were
22 on fire.
23 Q. The villages you just testified about, are they Serb villages?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Once people -- once you arrived at the Drina, what were you doing
1 and what were the other people doing, once you got to the Drina?
2 A. Once we arrived at the Drina, we tried to cross the river into
3 Serbia. Some tried to wade right through the river. Sometimes the tide
4 was high, the water was high, but at that point it wasn't, so they held
5 each other's hands, those who were a bit braver than the rest. So they
6 tried to wade right through the river. And there was a boat taking people
7 across. Boat loads. They were trying to take as many people as they
8 could just so that people could be off.
9 Q. And did you cross the river, and how did you cross the river?
10 A. I crossed on the boat.
11 Q. And once you arrived at the other side of the river, were you able
12 to see anything going on, that was happening in your village or any of the
13 other villages from the other bank of the river?
14 A. We were there just across the way from our village, across the
15 Drina, and we saw houses burning. Not all of the houses had been set
16 alight in our village. I specified in my statement that four houses had
17 been set alight and the rest of the houses remained. So that's how it
19 Q. Ms. Bozic, you testified that your husband and son was in the
20 hamlet the day of the attack. Do you know if they were mobilised by the
21 VRS, the Serb army?
22 A. No, they weren't. They weren't. We were there going about our
23 business. My son was in Belgrade working, and he had come over for two
24 days to give us a hand gathering the corn, and we were all there,
25 civilians, out in the fields, and that's where it caught us. That's where
1 we were when it started happening. And we were better off that way
2 because at least we had time enough to run before the houses were fired
3 on, because our houses were just next to the woods, and all the villages
4 are linked.
5 Q. And on the day of the attack, was either your husband or your son
6 wearing military clothing?
7 A. No. No.
8 Q. The other villagers that you were able to observe running, fleeing
9 to the Drina River and the ones that you met at the Drina River, were they
10 wearing military clothing?
11 A. No. Not in our village or the surrounding villages where mostly
12 elderly people lived. In our village, for example, there's no opportunity
13 for -- for young people to -- to get work. All those who could left as
14 soon as they could. They would cross to Serbia and find a job there. So
15 there were mostly elderly people living in our area.
16 I said in my statement yesterday that in our village there were a
17 lot of houses with nobody in them. The children had gone, and the old
18 people had already died. So the houses stand empty.
19 Q. And the people that remind in your village in the month of October
20 of 1992, specifically the 5th of October, what were the ages of these
22 A. Well, roughly speaking, my husband and I were born in the same
23 year, and then there were people who were older than us who were born in
24 1927 and 1930 or perhaps 1940, that sort of age. Mostly, like I say,
25 elderly people.
1 Q. During the attack, did you see any of the villagers or your
2 husband or your son firing at the soldiers?
3 A. No. No. We were there, and all we did was run to the river,
4 because that was our only way out.
5 Q. Now, prior to the attack in October, were any steps taken by
6 members in your hamlet to protect the village in any way? And what I mean
7 by protect, protect the village from attacks.
8 A. Well, I can't be sure. We were not really expecting an attack.
9 There were no warning signs. Had we been expecting an attack, we wouldn't
10 have just gone out to the fields to do some work. We would have tried to
11 take shelter earlier. And this way we were just caught there, picking the
13 Q. Now, did you return to your village following the attack, after
14 the attack, following October 5, 1992?
15 A. Yes. Yes. We returned. As I said in my statement, we returned
16 to get some clothes because of what had happened to us. And then we
17 returned to go about our daily work, because those who couldn't -- well,
18 I'm saying there were many people who had houses over in Serbia, but those
19 who didn't, they had to go back. They had to sow for the new crops, that
20 sort of thing.
21 Q. Were you able to observe the condition of the houses once you
22 returned to your village and observe any damage that the houses received
23 in the attack, and could you tell us what you observed about the houses?
24 A. Well, there were houses that had burned down, and those that
25 didn't were pockmarked to a large extent. The walls were drilled right
1 through with bullets, and it was like that, the houses were like that.
2 And those that had burned down, those were gone because they were wooden
3 slabs and wooden beams. So those houses that had caught fire properly,
4 they just burned down, and they were gone, the beams on the ground floor
5 and the beams on the upper floor. It all just went up in smoke.
6 Q. Did you go to Bajina Basta shortly after the attack in October, on
7 October 5, 1992?
8 A. Yes, I did. That is, we did. My mother-in-law had been there up
9 to that point, and then we went, and we would go there and we would go
10 back to work. It was autumn. We had livestock over there. We were
11 caught in the fields. That's where we kept our livestock, and much of our
12 livestock had then been taken away, many cows and sheep, during the
13 attack. And some stayed at night, and we could hear them cry and moan,
14 and moan at night. It was 4.00 or 5.00 in the afternoon. It was dark
15 enough so you weren't able to see. There was a storm coming on, lots of
16 rain, and you couldn't really see anything. You could hear the individual
17 cows that still remained. They were making sounds.
18 Q. Did you travel to Bajina Basta for any reason in relation to your
19 mother, shortly after the attack?
20 A. Yes. On the 7th of October, I did go. They called us. They came
21 to gather the bodies, and they said that people should be buried over
22 there, those who had been killed.
23 Q. And was your mother one of those individuals that had been killed?
24 A. Yes. Yes.
25 Q. Were you able to recognise any other -- the bodies that you
1 observed in Bajina Basta, were you able to recognise them? Did you know
2 them, who these people were?
3 A. Well, those that had been gathered from Dijovici and Boljevici, I
4 knew those people. And for example, I had seen some at the morgue. I
5 knew those people. I knew them while they were still alive, those people
6 who were locals.
7 Q. Were you able to observe the injuries on your mother's body?
8 MR. JONES: Is that really relevant to these charges? It's --
9 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I can rephrase the question.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, okay. Rephrase the question, then, please.
11 And also I took your previous question to mean that you were trying to get
12 from the witness at least the names of the persons she might have
13 recognised in the morgue, which she did not give us.
14 MS. RICHARDSON:
15 Q. If you could just tell us the names of the individuals you
16 recognised from the morgue that day that you visited to attend to your
18 A. Yes. All those that I recognised, I can give you their names,
19 from Dijovici. My mother, Stojka Stjepanovic. Then there was Milovan
20 Djokic, Sreten Djokic. His son, Svetozar Djokic. Radovan Djukic, Vidoje
21 Djukic; also his son. From Boljevici, Milutin Ristic, Stanija Vasic, her
22 husband, Vladan Vasic. Zarija Ristic from Kutjesi. Petra -- I can't
23 remember her last name. I can't remember her last name. The first name
24 was Petra, but I can't remember her last name. She was from Kutjesi, this
25 woman. From Fakovici, some of my relatives were there, and her daughter
1 Slavka Markovic and her husband Radomir Markovic. Another man named
2 Djokic, but he was married to a woman from Fakovici and that's where he
3 lived. He was an elementary schoolteacher. There was a man called Benes
4 from Stamatovici; we knew this man. And another man called Rade Savic.
5 I knew those persons, and, well, just like that. I knew them, and
6 I saw them. And they were all together there. As well as Miroslav
7 Ivanovic, another person from Dijovici. Those are the persons I
8 recognised. They were in the same sort of department, the same place, and
9 relatives came to collect their own bodies for burials. The relatives
10 came to be there, and each came to -- to get their own people and to take
11 them on to the morgue.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. From Dijovici, madam, you mentioned
13 some five persons. Some of them are Djokic, like Milovan Djokic and
14 Sreten Djokic and Svetozar Djokic. The other two, Radovan and Vidoje,
15 where they Djokic or Djukic?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Djukic, Djukic.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Because the interpretation arrived as Djokic earlier
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Djokic and Djukic. Radovan and
20 Vidoje Djukic, and the other people were called Djokic.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: No. I had heard you say Djukic. That's the reason
22 why I put the question was to correct the transcript.
24 MS. RICHARDSON:
25 Q. These individuals that you just mentioned, the bodies, you
1 testified that some of them were from Fakovici, Dijovici. Were there any
2 other villages these people were from that you know?
3 A. Well, those that I mentioned before, Milutin Ristic, Zarija
4 Ristic, Vladan Vasic and his wife Stanija Vasic. Those people were from
5 Boljevici, those people. Well, you know, it's all nearby, the same area,
6 so I knew those people.
7 Q. And the people that you just mentioned that died, did they die in
8 an attack on their village that occurred on 5th of October, 1992, if you
10 A. They were killed during the attack.
11 Q. And the --
12 A. -- in the village.
13 Q. And this attack on their village, did it occur on the 5th of
14 October, 1992?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Do you know how your mother died?
17 A. Well, how she died, as people say, dead men can't speak, but I
18 noticed wounds on her body.
19 Q. What kind of wounds?
20 MR. JONES: Your Honour, again I do object to this line of
21 questioning. It seems the Prosecution is keen in this case to elicit
22 details which are probably gory or at least upsetting to -- probably to
23 this witness. I don't see what possible relevance they can have to crimes
24 against property.
25 [Trial Chamber confers]
1 MR. JONES: Might I add something in that regard? As Your Honours
2 are no doubt aware, there is a great deal of public scrutiny for this
3 trial as with all trials, and my concern is not that Your Honours will
4 hear evidence which I am sure you can banish from your minds, but
5 certainly, for example, last week we heard evidence which was gory and
6 which was widely reported in the media, and I'm very concerned that there
7 will be perception that this trial is about these sorts of crimes, and
8 that it's unfair to this accused for his trial to appear to be concerned
9 with these sorts of crimes when in fact it has nothing to do with such
10 crimes. That's my concern, Your Honour.
11 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, if I may respond.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Richardson.
13 MS. RICHARDSON: It is clear that --
14 JUDGE AGIUS: What's the relevance of the question in any case?
15 MS. RICHARDSON: Well, Your Honour, the relevance is as to the
16 attack itself, we understand that these crimes relate to damage to
17 property. However, we are eliciting the entire events surrounding the
18 attack itself, and I think to just listen only to the portion that relates
19 to the houses doesn't tell the complete picture, and I think it is
20 relevant to the right of attack itself.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Isn't the fact that a number of people result having
22 been killed during this attack enough for you for the purposes of your --
23 of your indictment?
24 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, that's fine. However, we've heard
25 the Defence allege that a number of these people were part of military
1 formations and defence units, et cetera, and I think it is relevant to the
2 manner in which --
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, certainly not the witness's mother.
4 MS. RICHARDSON: Well, Your Honour, we certainly hope so. I'm not
5 trying to -- I just want to make sure that this is not a question later on
6 that the Defence will come back to say that, you know, that these people
7 were in fact part of any type of military formation.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: So why don't you restrict yourself to just one
9 question, asking the witness whether there were signs of external violence
10 on -- on the bodies of the persons she saw in the morgue and leave it at
12 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, that's fine. I --
13 JUDGE AGIUS: That would exclude that due to natural causes.
14 MS. RICHARDSON: That --
15 MR. JONES: May I make one observation, Your Honour. We will
16 certainly of course establish where necessary that people who died were in
17 military formations because that's highly relevant to the military
18 background. So if my learned friend is trying to project that line of
19 questioning --
20 JUDGE AGIUS: You will not be stopped for sure, Mr. Jones, if --
21 MR. JONES: I'm obliged, Your Honour.
22 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I would certainly -- I was simply
23 trying to establish that in fact her mother did not die from wounds that
24 could in any way be interpreted as being part of any type of military
25 formation, and if in fact she died while her house was burning, et cetera.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: But even so, even if the witness were to describe to
2 you a bullet wound here and a bullet wound there and a stab wound there
3 and an incision there, how are we going to establish how those wounds were
4 caused? I mean, it's -- it's --
5 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, that's fine. I can withdraw the
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Just stick to the question of whether these bodies
8 presented a scenario of possibly having died all together within the same
9 time frame due to natural causes or whether they met with a violent death
10 because there were signs of external violence and leave it at that.
11 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I can rephrase the question.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah. Please feel free to -- to rephrase it anyway
13 you like. But I don't think we really need to go into details, you know
14 what I mean? Just to establish that a certain number of persons were seen
15 by the witness in the morgue, we know who they were, and whether they had
16 visible signs of external violence.
17 MS. RICHARDSON:
18 Q. Ms. Bozic, from what you are able to observe when you visited the
19 morgue, did the bodies that you observed, in addition to your mother, have
20 signs of any violence, that they died violently?
21 A. Well, what I was able to see, I saw my mother, and I stated
22 yesterday what I had seen and noticed. I did see the other bodies in the
23 morgue, too, because those were people that I knew. Some had been killed.
24 This Svetozar Djokic, one of his eyes had been gouged out.
25 Q. With --
1 A. As for my mother, she was --
2 Q. Let me just interrupt --
3 A. -- cut right here.
4 Q. Let me just interrupt you for a moment. Without going into the
5 details, could you tell us from your observation, possibly with a yes --
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Thank you. Were these individuals wearing civilian or military
8 clothing that you could see when you went to the morgue?
9 A. Civilian.
10 Q. During the attack, were you able to recognise any of the soldiers
11 who attacked your village on October 5th?
12 A. No. No. I didn't recognise anyone, not at all. When I started
13 out, as I said, I tried to call my child to tell him to leave the house.
14 I saw Radoje Bozic, and then we just ran to the Drina River, and I didn't
15 see anyone again. At least those that I saw, I didn't recognise. I can't
16 tell you if I did or if I didn't.
17 Q. Did you later learn who was responsible for the attack on your
19 A. How on earth should I know? How should I know who was
20 responsible? There's no way for me to know that.
21 Q. Well --
22 A. Or who had led the attack.
23 Q. Well, did you talk to other villagers or other people in your
24 hamlet, and did they tell you who they believed was responsible for the
1 A. Well, how am I supposed to know. I was never involved in these
2 things. I never imagined that it would come to that. You try to live
3 cautiously. You try to take cover. As I said, we never expected this
4 attack in the first place, that it would ever take place.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: I think we are playing games here a little bit.
6 Could it have been fellow Serbs that attacked your village?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Serbs being attacked by other
8 Serbs. No. No.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: So we have excluded the Serbs. Who else could it
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, the attacks, when they started
12 burning things down and killing people, the Muslims, when the attack
14 JUDGE AGIUS: How -- why do you say it was the Muslims? What --
15 what reasons do you have? What justification do you have?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, the reason, the justification
17 is that people were killed. Whoever -- whoever was found was killed. And
18 Serb houses were set alight.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: So is it a conclusion that you draw because of any
20 particular reason? Could it have been anyone else apart from Muslims?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I don't know who else it could
22 have been. I don't know.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Were you aware of any shouting and words that were
24 uttered in the course of the attack by the attackers? Did you hear them
25 shouting? Did you hear them say --
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes. Well, no. No. I heard
2 them shout things like, "Get them. Get them," and that was all I heard.
3 Well, you know what it's like. You try to run as fast as you can. You
4 try to take cover. You run for your life. That's what I heard.
5 JUDGE ESER: I have a further question, Ms. Bozic. If things like
6 you told us happened, houses are burning, houses are burnt down, people
7 are killed, is it normal or would it be, rather, the case that the people
8 would talk about the question who may have caused all these problems?
9 Would everybody think it happened and just leave it, or would it, rather,
10 be the case that people would try to find out who had committed this?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, whoever attacked the
12 village -- the Muslims attacked the people, that's what people said. And
13 those were the people killed, and things were set alight. Not all the
14 houses burned down. There were houses that remained standing, but there
15 were also houses that were burned down in those villages. The attack --
16 well, at the same time there was an attack along the axis from Grabovacka
17 Rijeka to Zlijebovac. It was all on the same axis, and all of those
18 villages were attacked at the same time. It was all nearby. It was the
19 Drina River valley, and it was all along the same axis. All those
20 villages were lying along the same axis. So much for that.
21 JUDGE ESER: Now, if you think the Muslims have done it, wouldn't
22 it be normal that the villagers would think about which Muslims could have
23 done it, from which other village or somehow try to identify those who
24 have committed the attack?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I don't know. I didn't hear
1 any stories, anything being said about that. People didn't really get
2 together all that much. Everybody was very cautious after that attack.
3 That's it. You do your work, you come home, it's like that. You do some
4 work in the garden, in the house. We were there. But like I said
5 earlier, the population was mostly elderly people. They were Serbs. They
6 were working in different companies. And those of us who were there had
7 to be there. We had to work. We didn't have anything else to make a
8 living, no other way to make a living. We were just cultivating the land.
9 There was no -- not much choice, really, for us.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Just one question to make sure. In Radijevici where
11 you lived, the -- were there any Muslims living there in your village?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
13 MS. RICHARDSON:
14 Q. Ms. Bozic, just for clarification, you stated that you heard the
15 soldiers saying, "Catch them." I believe you also testified previously
16 they also said the word "Chetnik"; is that correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And one final question. If you could tell us what the ethnic
19 background of the people that you observed in the morgue was.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: You can lead her. Were the people that you
21 observed, whose bodies you observed, were they all Serbs?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
23 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour. I don't have any further
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, you can start. I am not -- I'm asking you to
1 start now because we have some appointments for our flu injections
2 between -- during the break, so if we stop before, we will not be able to
3 make those appointments. So go ahead, Mr. Jones.
4 MR. JONES: Certainly, Your Honour. I'm in your hands as to when
5 you wish me to stop.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: We stop at the normal time, 10.30.
7 Cross-examined by Mr. Jones:
8 Q. Ms. Bozic, I'm going to be asking you some questions, so I hope
9 you can see me all right. And you can hear what I'm saying, can you?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Yeah. I think we'll just move the ELMO to make life easier. I'm
12 going to -- thank you.
13 I'm going to start by asking you some questions just about the
14 area around Radijevici. It's right, isn't it, that your area is right by
15 the Drina. I think you used the expression, "Uz Drinu."
16 A. Yes. The fields are close, our houses, our property, and then the
17 Drina is right there. On the Drina itself, the village is below and then
18 there is our property, the fields that we were cultivating there.
19 Q. And it's good farmland, isn't it, that area?
20 A. Yes. Yes. It's fertile land.
21 Q. And your village, it's not far from Fakovici; is that right?
22 A. No. Perhaps, I'm not quite sure, but it's about three kilometres
23 from Fakovici. But I'm not sure, but I did hear people say that it's
24 about three kilometres.
25 Q. So not more than an hour or two's walk, perhaps, from your
2 A. Well, maybe an hour when you walk. You could get there in an
4 Q. And is it right that Fakovici is a market village which you would
5 have travelled to quite frequently?
6 A. You mean like a cattle market?
7 Q. Yes.
8 A. Stock market.
9 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... where you would go with your
10 produce and you would buy things?
11 A. The market wasn't in Fakovici. There were about two shops there,
12 but there was a livestock market where we took our cattle, you know. And
13 that was usually on Wednesdays.
14 Q. So you're familiar with Fakovici. You visited there many times,
15 and you're familiar with the town. Would that be right?
16 A. Yes.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Sorry to interrupt you, Mr. Jones, but perhaps we
18 are having some problems in trying to locate with a certain degree of
19 precision where the witness's village was, and perhaps if she could be
20 shown -- this is Radijevici and Fakovici. If she could be shown an
21 appropriate map, and she would indicate to us.
22 MR. JONES: Yes, Your Honour. I was --
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Because it is definitely near the border with
24 Serbia, near the border with Serbia. But if we can show her a map, she
25 can indicate to us where the village is.
1 Was it between Ratkovici and Fakovici?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Which village do you mean?
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes, yes.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Ratkovici is up in the hills far
6 away. It's up in the hills. It's not close to the Drina. I'm talking
7 about Ratkovici. I don't know anybody from there, and I've never been to
8 that village. It's in the hills. I don't know that village very well.
9 MR. JONES: Your Honour, I do have a map. The only problem is it
10 has some symbols on it.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: I think we have -- could I have that -- that one is
12 better, yeah. Was it near Boljevici, near Abdulici?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Which one? The village of
14 Radijevici? Which village close to which village?
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Which was the closest village to the village where
16 you lived?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The closest village was Dijovici and
18 Boljevici. These villages continued practically one after another.
19 They're not very far apart.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: So basically we are talking of somewhere between
21 Fakovici and Rogatica, no?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Rogatica. I've heard of it, but I
23 don't know where it is. I think that's quite far. I don't know that part
24 at all. I didn't go there.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Anyway. In other words, one of the nearest village
1 was Boljevici.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: And Boljevici is almost on the Drina River,
4 across --
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, we're close. We have the
6 houses. Below the houses is our property, and then beyond that is the
7 bank of the Drina.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. And beyond that is Serbia.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Serbia.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I think we've -- we know enough now.
11 Thank you.
12 Yes, Mr. Jones. Sorry to have interrupted you.
13 MR. JONES: Not at all.
14 Q. Now, are you aware, before the war, whether there were Muslims
15 living in Fakovici?
16 A. No. Before the war, the closest village was Zanjevo. It was a
17 hamlet, but it was also called Abdulici. It was Abdulici on the map, but
18 it was actually called Zanjevo. It's a hamlet.
19 Q. And Zanjevo, before the war, there were quite a number of Muslims
20 living there, weren't there? Maybe around 300 Muslims living in Zanjevo?
21 A. It was quite a large village. I don't know the numbers exactly,
22 but I know that it was a large village.
23 Q. And it was Muslim, an all-Muslim village?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And like you, before the war, they had farms and livestock, didn't
2 A. Yes. We all worked. We worked, they worked, yes.
3 Q. Cows, sheep, chickens, ducks, all that sort of thing?
4 A. Yes. You know, all the things that farmers have to have,
5 including cattle, yes.
6 Q. And crops as well. They had fields full of crops and other --
7 A. Yes, yes
8 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...
9 JUDGE AGIUS: I think we can stop there for the time being.
10 We will have a 30-minute break. That gives us time to finish what
11 we have to finish. Thank you.
12 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.
13 --- On resuming at 11.10 a.m.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Yes, Mr. Jones.
15 MR. JONES: Thank you, Your Honour.
16 Q. Mrs. Bozic, before the break we were just discussing your Muslim
17 neighbours in Zanjevo and the fact that they worked the land for a living
18 as you did.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. It's right, isn't it -- it's right, isn't it, that before the war
21 you helped them with their crops, especially during harvest time, and they
22 helped you with yours?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And you were friends with your Muslim neighbours in Zanjevo,
25 weren't you?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. You would visit each other for coffee, go to each other's
3 festivals, each other's weddings, funerals, that sort of thing?
4 A. Yes. We would also go to see their boys off to the army. They
5 would also do the same for us. For example, when they were sending off
6 their sons to go to the army, we would go, and they would also come to us.
7 Q. So these are people who were friends of yours over ten, 20, 30
9 A. Yes. They were their neighbours. And I am born in Dijovici, so
10 our property is mixed. There would be our field and then one of their
11 fields, one of our fields. It was all intermingled. This wasn't the case
12 so much in Radijevici.
13 Q. So and it's right, isn't it, that you would naturally be concerned
14 for their welfare, and they were concerned for your welfare?
15 A. Yes. There was no hatred amongst us, no, before the war. There
16 isn't any now either. There are people who have come back to live there,
17 just as we have come back to live on our property. This is our living.
18 Q. But in May 1992, it's right, isn't it, you noticed that the
19 Muslims in Zanjevo had left their homes?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Now, do you have any -- do you know the reason why the Muslims
22 left their homes in May 1992?
23 A. I don't know.
24 Q. Did you try to find out, given that these were your friends for
25 20, 30 years, and you were concerned for their welfare? Were you
1 interested in what might have happened to them?
2 A. I don't know. I don't know. I didn't.
3 Q. So you weren't curious that friends of yours who you've explained
4 you spent years together going to each other's festivals, seeing each
5 other, helping each other, they disappeared and you had absolutely no
6 knowledge and no interest in what happened to these people? Would that
7 really be right?
8 A. I didn't. We were over here working. We were busy with our
9 affairs. I wasn't really interested in what was going on, how all of this
10 came about and so on and so forth.
11 Q. You weren't interested in what happened to your friends?
12 A. There were -- they had their reasons. I don't know.
13 Q. Well, let's explore those reasons. Why would people leave their
14 homes that they've lived in all their lives, and their fields which is
15 their only source of livelihood, why would they leave those homes all of a
17 A. I don't know. I don't know why they left. They left. Our people
18 left as well. That's how it was. I don't know the why and how of it.
19 It's something that I cannot explain or tell you. I don't know.
20 Q. Well, could it be that they were forced to leave their homes and
21 forced to leave at gunpoint by Serbs?
22 A. I don't know. I don't know who would do that. What they were
23 forcing, why they left, I don't know. From what I was able to see, there
24 were no threats coming from our people who were close by. That's all. I
25 don't know how they left, why they left.
1 Q. Let me put it this way: It's right, isn't it, that you saw
2 Muslims up in the woods above your hills at night?
3 A. What do I know? At night, when night falls, those of us who were
4 there, we worked during the day. At night you just go to bed and you go
5 to sleep. I really didn't look around that much. And even if I did, what
6 would one see in the forest, in the woods? I don't know.
7 Q. It's right, isn't it, that you saw groups of Muslims in the woods
8 after May 1992 when they disappeared from Zanjevo? So my question is:
9 Isn't it -- isn't it right that you saw that the Muslims from Zanjevo who
10 had gone off into the woods and hills?
11 A. I don't know what I saw. We would see them, but I can't say that
12 there was any talk. I can't say that there was any hatred or that we did
13 anything to one another. I really don't know anything about that. I
14 can't really say anything about it, and I don't know.
15 Q. Let me ask you this --
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead. Go ahead.
17 MR. JONES:
18 Q. You know this area, and you've said how there's rich farmland
19 down by the Drina. In your opinion, knowing this area, is it better to
20 live on your farms with your livestock and crops, or is it better to be in
21 the woods and hills above your village? What is the better place to live?
22 A. Well, it was better to live on your own property and to cultivate
23 the land, which is what we did. That's how we made our living.
24 Q. Have you heard of the expression "ethnic cleansing"?
25 A. No.
1 Q. You've never heard of the expression "ethnic cleansing"?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Let me put it this way: Isn't it right - and tell me if you're
4 not aware of this - that in April, May, 1992, throughout Eastern Bosnia
5 Muslims were being expelled from their homes by Serb forces, and could it
6 be that that is what was also happening in Radijevici?
7 A. I don't know. I don't know what they noticed and why they left
8 their homes. I don't know that. I don't know. I can't say. I didn't
9 get involved in that. In the village you live, you work, you're busy with
10 your own affairs. You're thinking how to make ends meet.
11 Q. You're interested in politics in local politics?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Were you a member of the SDS at the time? The Serbian Democratic
15 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't understand what the
16 witness said.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam, one moment, because -- one moment.
18 Mr. Jones, again I apologise for interrupting you, but the interpreters
19 did not catch her -- the witness's reply.
20 Madam, be patient with me. Mr. Jones asked you whether you were a
21 member of the SDS at the time, that is the Serbian Democratic Party. What
22 was your answer? Because the interpreters couldn't hear you.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wasn't a member of the party. To
24 tell you the truth, I'm not really educated. I only attended four years
25 of school. I never was involved in politics, nor do I know anything about
1 it. I didn't get involved in that at all. I don't know.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.
3 MR. JONES: Thanks.
4 Q. We'll come back to that. You went back to Fakovici sometime in
5 1992, as I understood it. Did you see a single Muslim in Fakovici after
6 May 1992?
7 A. Well, you didn't really go out all that much. When you'd go to
8 Fakovici, you wouldn't really see that much. I really didn't go around
9 that much. You would stay around the houses or go to the fields and so
10 on. There wasn't really that much moving around.
11 Q. Just so you understand, Mrs. Bozic, if I'm pausing, it's because
12 we're waiting for interpretation.
13 I'm going to mention some names of -- of Muslims from Fakovici and
14 tell me if you know any of them. Himzo Suljic.
15 A. What do you mean Suljic? How do you mean? From where?
16 Q. My question is: Do you know Himzo Suljic, and while I'm at it,
17 Neva Ridjic [phoen]?
18 A. From where?
19 Q. Fakovici.
20 A. From which village? There were no Himzo Suljics in Fakovici. I
21 only know about the Muslims who lived in Zanjevo. But in Fakovici, there
22 were Serbs. Fakovici was inhabited by Serbs. I don't know about Suljics
24 Q. You're saying before the war there were no Muslims living in
1 A. There were no Muslims in Fakovici. They lived in Zanjevo. And
2 there were Serb houses in Fakovici. There aren't too much houses in
3 Fakovici anyway, but it was inhabited by Serbs. There was a school there.
4 Our children went to school there. There's a post office. There's a
5 church. It's like a little place.
6 Q. So your evidence is that there were no Muslims at all living in
7 Fakovici before May 1992, none.
8 A. Living there. No, there were no houses of theirs in Fakovici.
9 Q. Now, I'm going to go back to the Muslims from Zanjevo briefly.
10 You've -- it's your evidence that they left their homes in May 1992.
11 You've told us they had livestock. It's right, isn't it, that when they
12 left their homes they couldn't take all their livestock with them? Would
13 you accept that?
14 A. Yes. They had cattle. When you live in the village, of course
15 you have it.
16 Q. Yes. What I'm saying is when they left, when the Muslims from
17 Zanjevo left their homes and farms, they didn't walk off with all their
18 sheeps and goats and chickens and ducks, did they? They had to leave
19 those behind.
20 A. What do I know. To tell you the truth, we are close, but I wasn't
21 really that interested if they took any cattle with them, if they sent it
22 somewhere else. I really don't know. I didn't go to see what was left
23 behind. I don't know about the cattle. I really didn't wander around
24 that much to see if anything was left behind, what was left behind, how
25 much cattle they had, if they took it with them, where they put the
1 cattle. I don't know.
2 Q. Isn't it the fact that they couldn't take their cattle with them,
3 and that Serbs, their neighbours, took, stole the cattle and livestock
4 that they left behind? Isn't that what happened, and isn't that something
5 which you're aware of?
6 A. It's like this: What I know is that in my village, nobody took
7 this cattle or brought it to their own stable or barn. Out of the people
8 that I know there, I know that none of our people did anything like that.
9 None of my folks did anything like that. I cannot say that they went and
10 they took the cattle. This is as far as my neighbours, those who were
11 living close to me.
12 Q. Serbs in Fakovici or Popovici or Boljevici, they might have taken
13 the cattle left behind by the Muslims from Zanjevo?
14 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour --
15 JUDGE AGIUS: If it's merely speculative, let's drop it. Perhaps
16 you can rephrase it and ask her whether she knows of anyone else apart
17 from the ones she has restricted her answer to.
18 MR. JONES: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.
19 Q. Are you aware of whether Serbs -- are you aware of Serbs in some
20 of the other hamlets, Boljevici, Popovici, Kutjesi, Fakovici who did take
21 the property of Muslims from Zanjevo when the Muslims had to leave?
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Now you're saying property. I would restrict it to
23 cattle because that's -- or --
24 MR. JONES: Livestock.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Livestock, yeah.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Where I was, no one took anything.
2 As for Fakovici and those places over there, I don't know. I didn't see
3 anyone coming and going or anyone taking anything. I just didn't see
4 that. But I do know that those from my village and from the surrounding
5 area, no one brought anyone else's livestock along. And I didn't go
6 further afield than that, so I didn't know. I never left my village
7 unless you -- you had to.
8 MR. JONES:
9 Q. Let's deal briefly with the fields of the people from Zanjevo.
10 You said today that this attack on the 5th of October occurred during
11 harvest time and that in previous years you would help harvest the fields
12 of the Muslims and they would help you. It's right, isn't it, that this
13 year you weren't helping your Muslim neighbours harvest their crops?
14 JUDGE AGIUS: This year. I think --
15 MR. JONES: 1992.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Be specific because she might misunderstand your
18 MR. JONES: My apologies.
19 Q. In 1992, it's right, isn't it, that you didn't help your Muslim
20 neighbours with their harvest as you did in previous years?
21 A. In 1992. Well, you know, it -- they had sown the crops and it was
22 there left standing and -- well, not that there were people around. Then
23 we hardly had time to harvest our own crops, the corn, I'm saying. So
24 some of ours was left standing, and then the next spring - that's after
25 the next winter - we harvested the crops and theirs were left standing.
1 It was there, it was ruined eventually. And then snow fell, and much of
2 our crop was snowed over too. There were no people to harvest the crops,
3 crops that had been sown. The next spring, people were back and they
4 harvested their corn, the corn that we had sown and that was to be
5 harvested in October.
6 Q. It's right, isn't it, that the Muslims from Zanjevo, that they
7 neither could harvest their crops in October -- sorry, that they weren't
8 harvesting their crops and that they couldn't get back to their crops
9 because they would be killed if they went back there?
10 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I would object. Clearly counsel is
11 asking the witness to speculate. I think she has repeatedly said that she
12 doesn't know what happened in this village, and I think going through this
13 line of questioning is asking her to speculate over matters she's not
14 aware of,, and I think that the question either needs to be rephrased
15 about what she's aware of, but certainly not going through again
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
18 MR. JONES: It's a suggestion I'm putting to her.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: It's a suggestion to speculate basically, especially
20 in the part dealing whether they would be killed if they went back there.
21 You're pretending that she knows a little bit -- not a little bit, much
22 more than she has actually shown that she knows.
23 So go ahead, rephrase the question, but don't put the same
24 question again, please.
25 MR. JONES: I'm simply ask this then:
1 Q. You're aware, aren't you, that the field of the Muslims from
2 Zanjevo were left unharvested that year, 1992?
3 A. What do you mean?
4 Q. I'll move on to another --
5 A. Yes, yes. It was left like that, like it was. Some of ours, too,
6 because there was no one around after the attack. You weren't really free
7 to move about that much or harvest the crops. There is the woods over
8 there and above, and people were scared that someone would see them. Like
9 I said, the people were afraid to do anything, but we have survived, and
10 that's it.
11 Q. But you say that you weren't really free to move about that much.
12 Can you expand on that a little? Why weren't you free to move about?
13 A. Well, not like before when we used to go to Fakovici and wherever.
14 And then the way out was towards the Drina River. And whenever we needed
15 something, we had boats moored over there, if we needed to go out and buy
16 something, or to cross into Serbia where there were shops. We'd just go
17 do our shopping and go straight back, and that's how it was. And that was
18 our main way out, and that's where we usually went. We didn't move about
19 too much because we were nearby. We didn't go to Skelani or to Bratunac.
20 You had no means of transportation to use like there was before the war.
21 Then we'd had buses and things, but now you couldn't. And you couldn't
22 just walk there because it wasn't that nearby, really.
23 Q. If you could keep your answers short that, would be helpful.
24 Isn't one of the reasons at least why you couldn't move around --
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. One of the reasons why you couldn't move around is because there
2 were lines against -- facing the neighbouring Muslim villages, firstly?
3 That's right, isn't it, that there were lines established?
4 A. Well, you know, I know of no lines. We just didn't go, because
5 you had no means of transportation. You couldn't go. Like I said, what
6 was nearby was across the river. Whenever we needed something we'd cross
7 the river, go into Serbia, and then go straight back. That was the extent
8 of our movement because there was nothing you could use to go to Bratunac
9 or Skelani in terms of transportation.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: I saw you rising.
11 MS. RICHARDSON: Well, Your Honour, the witness has apparently as
12 best she could tried to answer the question, but certainly the question
13 that was posed about lines, I think counsel needs to clarify exactly what
14 it is he's referring to.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, it's lines of defence, defence lines.
16 Were you aware of any defence lines?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, I wasn't.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Are you aware of any trenches?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What do you mean trenches?
20 JUDGE AGIUS: That makes it more difficult. You see what you
21 landed me in?
22 Trenches is dug-up pieces of land that are dug up where soldiers
23 stay, lay in waiting, to lay in guard their check and use as a cover.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know about that. We didn't
25 have that kind of thing.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: I think you should move to something different,
2 Mr. Jones.
3 MR. JONES: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: You need to understand that in small villages in the
5 area like it is in -- across the Adriatic, even in Italy and down south
6 even in my country, people living in small villages, in hamlets, you will
7 find that in their lifetime they haven't moved out of that village or that
8 hamlet by more than sometimes five kilometres. In my -- in the village
9 where I live in my country, there are small hamlets, and if you ask them
10 which is the capital -- where is the capital city of Malta, they would
11 tell you it's -- they think that the village which is nearby of which they
12 form part is the capital. I mean, it's --
13 MR. JONES: I'm aware of that, Your Honour. At the same time,
14 during war, information is at a premium, so...
15 JUDGE AGIUS: But you can rest assured that if you ask this
16 witness how far she has been away from her village in her lifetime, it --
17 she will tell you that she has been very little, on very few occasions,
18 and that's probably either a wedding or a baptism or something like that.
19 And that's -- otherwise, they don't move.
20 MR. JONES: That's why at the beginning I was asking how often she
21 travelled to Fakovici.
22 Q. All right. Moving to a new subject. It's right, isn't it, that a
23 village guard was organised in Radijevici and in the surrounding area at
24 the start of the war?
25 A. No. I don't know, guards. No guards. Well, I'm just asking --
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 I'm telling you, there was no hate between us, and we weren't really
2 afraid of one another.
3 Q. Do you recall, Ms. Bozic, making a statement in 1994 before an
4 investigating judge referring to these events?
5 A. No, I didn't. I said yesterday they're telling me that there are
6 two statements that they say I gave in Zvornik. I said I don't know. I
7 only went to Zvornik once, and that was in 2000, I believe. But later I
8 remembered that some people came. Which year did you refer to? 2000?
9 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...
10 A. I later remember that some people came to my home to see me. It
11 was in the autumn, and again we were harvesting the crops, and they asked
12 some questions. Well, truth to tell, I wasn't really involved. I did not
13 know what would happen. I was not sufficiently interested to ask those
14 people where they were from or what they wanted. They asked me some
15 questions. They just told me, "Well, we're here to see because we heard
16 that your mother had been killed, and we want you to tell us something
17 about that, and please sign this paper." That's what they said.
18 Q. You're running on a bit. If you could keep your answers short and
19 I'll keep asking, if you don't mind.
20 Just to be absolutely clear, then, you're saying that you never
21 gave a statement in Zvornik before someone who introduced themselves to
22 you as a judge or with a court clerk present or anything of that nature?
23 A. I did give a statement in Zvornik once. I told you I was there
24 once, but they told me that I had been there twice for a statement, which
25 is not true. I was only there once to give a statement.
1 MR. JONES: Will you give me a moment, Your Honour, while I confer
2 with my colleague.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes, certainly.
4 [Defence counsel confer]
5 MR. JONES:
6 Q. So as far as this statement in Zvornik is concerned, was is it, as
7 far as you're aware, to a Judge, in particular Judge Vaso Eric, or was it
8 to investigators or to police?
9 A. I don't know what the man's name was, the one that I gave a
10 statement to.
11 Q. We have a statement from 1994 in Zvornik which purports to be by
12 you, and in that statement I'll read a sentence and see if you agree with
13 what's said there. It says: "In the village -- in my village of
14 Radijevici, as in the surrounding Serbian villages of Dijovici, Fakovici,
15 et cetera, the locals organised self-protection. Guards were organised in
16 the village and the surrounding area, and so my husband and sons took part
17 in them."
18 Now, first, do you remember making that statement; and secondly,
19 is it true?
20 A. No. I don't know that I ever gave that particular statement. I
21 said that my husband, we were in the village, but my sons were working in
22 Belgrade, both of them since 1989 and 1990 respectively.
23 As for that statement, I don't know. In 1994, in 2000, I didn't
24 go to Zvornik then. I went later. But I can't know in which specific
1 Q. Okay. We'll move on from that topic. Now, as far as your
2 immediate area is concerned, Radijevici, that at least is an area which
3 you know very well, isn't it? You've walked around it your whole life?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And during the war, it's right, isn't it, that you couldn't walk
6 just wherever you liked because there were mines around your village?
7 A. Well, we ploughed the land, the fields. You didn't do anything up
8 in the hills. It was down in the fields, and we always worked the land.
9 There were no mines in the fields. What do I know.
10 Q. No mines in the fields. But were there mines, then, up in the
12 A. I don't know. We didn't go to the hills. We didn't go to the
13 hills because there was no need for us to go there.
14 MR. JONES: I'm going to ask the usher to place a document on the
15 ELMO. It's ERN number 01317167. That's the Bosnian. There's an English
16 translation, and it's from the Bratunac collection.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Technicians, please. I've asked the usher to put
18 the document on the ELMO, the -- the original in the Serbian language for
19 a change and zoom in so that will make it easier for the witness to read,
20 because otherwise we'll have problems. Okay. I think for the time being
21 that should be okay. Thanks.
22 MR. JONES:
23 Q. Mrs. Bozic, can you have a look at that document which has been
24 placed next to you. It's in front of you, in fact, on the screen. Are
25 you able to read it?
1 JUDGE AGIUS: If you want us to zoom in so that you get bigger
2 letters, we will do that.
3 MR. JONES: Right. That's fine.
4 Q. Now, if you can see that, Mrs. Bozic, it appears from this
5 document that a certain Radivoje Jakovljevic of the 314 Infantry Brigade
6 of the VRS is from your -- first of all, was born in your village,
7 Boljevici. So my first question is: Do you know that gentleman? Did you
8 know him.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And were you aware he died in your village, Radijevici, during the
12 A. He didn't die during the attack.
13 Q. No. But it's right from this document, isn't it, and confirm
14 whether you're aware of this or not, that in fact he died on the 15th of
15 August, 1992, while reconnoitering the terrain in Radijevici village, and
16 he was seriously wounded by stepping on a mine. Now, are you aware that
17 that's how he was seriously injured?
18 A. I don't know. I know that he was killed. How he was killed, I
19 don't know, whether it was a mine or something else that killed him.
20 Q. This is someone who you've just told us you know, was born in the
21 same village as you, who apparently stepped on a mine in your village.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: But if she doesn't know, she doesn't know. I mean,
23 it's --
24 MR. JONES: She's aware that he died, and I'm putting it to her
25 that surely she knows he was wounded in her village.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know that he died. He died --
2 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. Yes, Ms. Richardson.
3 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, my objection was to what Your Honour
4 had just stated. I think the witness is clear that she doesn't know how
5 he died and that counsel is insisting that she give him the answer that he
6 seems to be seeking is unfair to the witness.
7 MR. JONES: It's fair enough for me to press a witness as to
8 whether that's the correct answer.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: But if she's told you that she doesn't know, she
10 doesn't know. I mean her, ask again if she knows how he died.
11 MR. JONES: Very well, Your Honour, I'll move on.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: How did he meet the Lord? How did he die? Do you
13 know how he died?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was on his way somewhere, but I
15 don't know how. I mean, I was in the village at the time, and they
16 started yelling he was killed. "He's been killed, Radivoje Jakoljevic."
17 Now, where he was headed to or why, I have no idea. We were just going
18 about our business. I don't know who he was with. I only know that he
19 was killed. Whether he stepped on a mine or whatever. It certainly
20 wasn't in the field. Maybe he was headed into the hills. Well, one
21 thing's for certain, he got killed.
22 MR. JONES:
23 Q. And were you aware that he was a soldier, Radivoje?
24 A. How should I know? He was an elderly man. He was in the village,
25 and he and his wife worked the land there. They had some property. They
1 had some land. They had their own livestock. That's how it was. And
2 he -- he didn't leave the village.
3 Q. Were you aware that there were VRS soldiers patrolling your area
4 nearly two months before the attack on your village?
5 A. I'm not aware of that. I didn't see anyone. I know that my
6 husband didn't go anywhere. He never went anywhere, nor did anyone come
7 looking for him. I didn't see anyone. There was no one. What I can say
8 is that we weren't expecting that, what eventually happened. But that was
9 the reason why no one was scared and no one was getting themselves
11 In our village, there was nothing much going on in terms of people
12 organising themselves or an army being present. It was just villagers,
13 farmers, who lived there.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Mr. Jones, are you tendering this document?
15 MR. JONES: Yes, yes. If that would be given a number.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: So it's being admitted as Defence Exhibit
17 number D41?
18 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, D42.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: 42. Thank you.
20 MR. JONES:
21 Q. I'm just going to ask you one or two more questions on this
22 subject. It's a pretty important thing, isn't it, if there are land-mines
23 around your village for you to be aware of that, is it not?
24 A. I don't know. I am not sure if there are land-mines or not. You
25 just go about your own business. You walk around, you work the land. I
1 don't know.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't know if you want to pursue it, Mr. Jones,
3 but she's obviously not understood your question.
4 The question was this: If someone like the army or -- or whoever
5 put mines around your village in the hills where people supposedly could
6 decide to go walking, wouldn't you expect to see signs saying, "This area
7 is mined," or not? So that you are put on your guard so that you know
8 that that area is mined and you shouldn't step inside?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, we went wherever we needed to
10 go. No signs anywhere that an area was mined. We went as far as we
11 needed to go, and we did go wherever we needed to go, and that was the
12 extent of it. Wherever we had to go in terms of our work and our
13 property. That was the extent of it.
14 MR. JONES: -- move to a new subject.
15 Q. Before the attack which you've described today, it's right, isn't
16 it, that there was a lot of combat activity in your area?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Are you saying that you didn't hear shots or detonations from your
19 village in the months before October 1992?
20 A. No.
21 Q. It's a peaceful area, isn't it, your village? There aren't the
22 sounds of a lot of machinery or cars or anything like that?
23 A. No. No, not really. It's not an area with factories or with any
24 major industry. We live off our land. It's -- it's a poor rural area, no
25 factories, no major industry. And everyone crosses the river to go into
1 Serbia, all those who can leave, the children --
2 Q. So it's a quiet, peaceful area, and you're saying that before
3 October 1992, you didn't hear gunshots or detonations or any sounds of
4 combat any period prior to that?
5 A. No. Well, if we'd heard sounds of shooting, we would have been
6 alerted and we would have tried to run away earlier.
7 MR. JONES: I have another document which I'd be grateful if the
8 usher would place on the ELMO. It's ERN number 01317139, again from the
9 Bratunac Brigade collection. We actually have the English translation.
10 Q. Mrs. Bozic, if you could have a look at that document. This
11 document appears to relate to a VRS soldier from the 314 Infantry Brigade
12 called Zarko Bozic. My first question is: Given that it's the same name
13 as yours, is this a relative of yours or of your husband? Zarko Bozic.
14 A. Well, what's your question about him?
15 Q. My question was: Is he a relation of yours?
16 A. Bozic, yes, a relation.
17 Q. Zarko Bozic. Do you know him or did you know him?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Now, it refers to him being active in the VRS since of beginning
20 of war activities. We see at the top it appears that he joined the VRS in
21 April 1992, and it says that he took part in combat in the area of
22 Fakovici and Skelani. That's right, isn't it, that your village is
23 between Fakovici and Skelani? Isn't it?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. My question is: Were you aware the VRS - and in particular a
1 relation of yours - being involved in combat in your very area since the
2 beginnings of the war in April 1992, or is that something which you claim
3 to be unaware of as well?
4 A. Well, I -- I don't know. It wasn't in the village. Where was he
5 supposed to be, Zarko Bozic. I don't know where he was. I don't know
6 anything about that. I don't even know what went on in Bratunac.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Stop, because this document does mention how,
8 supposedly, he met his death, but there's no indication that it was in
10 MR. JONES: No, Your Honour. It refers to him taking part in
11 combat in the area of Fakovici and Skelani.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, but it doesn't say when.
13 MR. JONES: No. But one sees that he joined the army 18th of
14 April, 1992 and that he died in January -- 9 January 1993.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: But not in combat. It doesn't say he died in
17 MR. JONES: No, indeed. But the inference is he was involved in
18 combat in this area between April 1992 and January 1993.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: You're talking of eight months.
20 MR. JONES: Indeed.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Plus.
22 MR. JONES: Yes. It's to establish that there was combat activity
23 in the area at the time. It says: "Bozic Zarko has been in the RS army
24 since the beginning of war activities. He took part in combats in the
25 area of Fakovici and Skelani." And at the beginning of war activities one
1 sees he joined the VRS in April 18, 1992.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. -- Madam Bozic, we have a piece of paper here
3 which states that this relative of yours, Zarko Bozic, took part in combat
4 activities in the area of Fakovici and Skelani any time between April 18,
5 1992, when he joined the army of Republika Srpska, the VRS, and the day
6 when he died, that is January the 9th of 1993. In these -- or in those
7 eight months, do you remember any fighting, any combat -- combats or any
8 fighting taking place or any attacks taking place in the area of Fakovici
9 and Skelani? My question to you: Had the war arrived in Skelani and
10 Fakovici between -- any time between April the 18th of 1992 and January
11 the 9th of 1993, or had they been spared completely from the scourge of
12 combat and war?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Fighting, combat, when he was there
14 he drowned in the Drina, Zarko Bozic, this man, because they took a boat
15 across the river to do some shopping over there, and the boat turned over
16 and they all drowned. It keeled over. I was there, too. There were
17 three or four of us women and three men. They were on their way to Serbia
18 to do some shopping, and I was there too. I was on my way. I stopped by
19 a woman in Banovic and the boat keeled over, and that's when he was
20 killed. That was on the 9th of January.
21 MR. JONES:
22 Q. It says the shopping was for the needs of his unit. So in fact it
23 was shopping for a military unit, wasn't it?
24 A. No, not for any unit. What unit? They were on their way to go
25 there or perhaps longer. His grandfather and grandmother and his father
1 and mother, because his father was also unable, and he was --
2 MR. JONES: I would ask for this exhibit to be tendered into
4 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, if I may. I don't think the witness
5 finished her answer about --
6 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no, she hasn't. In fact I'm going to pursue it
7 myself. This document will be D43, please.
8 You haven't answered the question, madam. If you are getting
9 tired, we stop, we give you a break, if you think you need a break. But
10 the question was: Between April of 1992 and January of 1993, was there
11 any fighting in the area of Fakovici and Skelani in those eight months,
12 April 1992 to January 1993?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was no fighting where we were.
14 I began to tell you that he was on the Drina. He was going across. He
15 had put some hay in the boat, you know, hay for the cattle, because he had
16 a grandfather and grandmother across the other side who had cows. So they
17 were taking the food across to Serbia. The level of the Drina was high.
18 The boat turned over, and there were a lot of people there from our
19 village. Well, not a lot, but there were --
20 JUDGE AGIUS: [Previous translation continues] ... You are going
21 to be here a very long time if you don't --
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And that's where he was killed.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm not interested in how he was killed. I'm only
24 interested in knowing whether between April 1992 and January 1993 there
25 was any fighting that you know of in the area of Fakovici and Skelani.
1 And just answer "yes" or "no" or "I don't know."
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In 1992 and 1993. Up until the 9th
3 of January, 1993, there was no fighting. Where we were there was no
4 fighting. Since the attack on the 5th of October, there was no more
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I think you can move to the next question,
7 Mr. Jones.
8 MR. JONES: Yes, Your Honour, I will.
9 Q. You told us earlier that you weren't a member of the SDS, is that
10 right, in 1992?
11 A. I wasn't. I don't even know what that is.
12 Q. I'll ask the usher to place the next document on the ELMO. It's
13 ERN number 00835851. It was from the EDS, electronic disclosure system.
14 And there's an English translation. If the witness could look at that
15 document. Specifically if the witness could look at number 1015 document.
16 Q. Do you see 1015, Mrs. Bozic? Novka Bozic, daughter of Marko, born
17 in 1948. That's you, isn't it?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. According to this, you joined the SDS on the 12th of September,
20 1990. Is that right? Did you join the SDS in September of 1990?
21 A. No. Nobody asked me to do that or -- I don't know anything about
22 it. I -- I didn't join, no.
23 Q. And you're saying also that you didn't pay 120 dinars to the SDS;
24 is that right?
25 A. No, I did not.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Did you pay 120 dinars to any political party?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. I don't remember.
3 I -- nobody asked me for anything, and I didn't pay anything. I don't
4 know. As far as I know, I did not, but I don't know.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Did the SDS have a women's section?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. I know that I was not
7 a member of it. I don't know what party it was, and I wasn't a member of
8 it. Nobody asked me for anything, and I didn't pay anything.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: That is right. Mr. Jones, she is all yours again.
10 MR. JONES: Well, I would ask this document to be given a Defence
11 exhibit number.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. That will be -- is being admitted into
13 evidence as a Defence document marked D44.
14 MR. JONES:
15 Q. Now, Mrs. Bozic, were you aware of plans to put Fakovici in the
16 area in a new municipality of Skelani and for that municipality to remain
17 in the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia?
18 A. No, I wasn't.
19 Q. Do you know Slavko Jovanovic?
20 A. No, I don't. I don't know him.
21 Q. Let's move to the attack on the 5th of October, 1992. I think
22 it's right, isn't it, that the first thing you heard was shooting but that
23 you didn't know who was shooting. Is that correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. So you don't know who started shooting.
1 A. I heard shooting. That's when the attack happened.
2 Q. It's right, isn't it, that there was powerful resistance from your
3 village in Radijevici to the attack?
4 A. No. No. I don't know.
5 Q. Well, I'm going to put a sentence again to you which appears in --
6 in the statement which we have and tell me whether you agree with the
7 statement or not. It's there stated --
8 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour --
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Please, I know exactly what -- but I'll let you say.
10 Yes, Ms. Richardson.
11 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I'd ask counsel to indicate which
12 statement he's reading from.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Exactly.
14 MR. JONES: It's the 1994 statement to -- made in Zvornik.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, exactly, but she doesn't know.
16 MR. JONES: My apologies. I omitted to mention that. And it's
17 page 2 if Your Honours are following, the third paragraph.
18 "The men of the village quickly organised themselves" --
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Wait, wait. Because we've still not explained to
20 her exactly what is happening.
21 MR. JONES: Well, I said --
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Jones is going to read out to you apart from the
23 statement that the -- we have here that supposedly you made in Zvornik in
24 1994 and which was mentioned to you earlier on. You said you remember
25 going to Zvornik once but only once. Now, Mr. Jones is going to read a
1 part from it, and then he will ask you a question. If you want to see
2 this statement -- do you have the original or not?
3 MR. JONES: Unfortunately not, Your Honour, because --
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Because we don't have it either. But Mr. Jones is
5 going read a part from it and then you answer the question that he will
6 put to you.
7 Yes, go ahead.
8 MR. JONES: It's here stated: "The men in the village," that's
9 Radijevici, "quickly organised themselves and put up powerful resistance
10 to the attackers who were thwarted and who directed their attack to the
11 neighbouring village of Tivovici [phoen]. The Muslims managed to set fire
12 to the houses of Radoje Bozic, Milic Bozic" -- apologies. "Obren Vasic,
13 and Radivoje Katanic."
14 Now, it's right, isn't it, firstly taking the second part that you
15 saw that the houses of Radoje Bozic, Milic Bozic, Obren Vasic, and
16 Radivoje Katanic had been set on fire?
17 A. I saw that the houses were set on fire. I said that in the
19 Q. I see. So that bit is correct. Now, if we take the first
20 sentence I read: "The men in the village quickly organised themselves and
21 put up powerful resistance," isn't that also correct?
22 A. Well, no. There weren't even enough men to put up a resistance.
23 We were fleeing towards the Drina. As I said, my child was at home. He
24 had gone to eat lunch. He was in the forest -- in the fields. We had
25 been gathering the corn.
1 Q. So your answer is that that statement is incorrect. Did you make
2 that statement to a judge in Zvornik or not, if you recall?
3 A. I only gave a statement in Zvornik once. I don't know where that
4 comes from. I think that this was in 2000. Well, it didn't occur to me
5 to write down the date, but I was in Zvornik only once. And when I came
6 here, I was told that there are two statements from Zvornik. I only went
7 to Zvornik once and gave one statement. I don't know where this other
8 statement comes from. It's something that is worrying me, this about two
9 statements when I know that I only gave one statement in Zvornik, and
10 maybe this was in 2000 or -- I don't know.
11 MR. JONES: Your Honour, in fact there is a matter which -- which
12 we perhaps should discuss in the absence of the witness, and I don't know
13 if this is an appropriate time, but we have similar concerns to this
14 witness. It's a matter which does have to be raised at some point.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: I would suggest -- yes. Let's -- usher, let's
16 escort the witness out for a couple of minutes and we deal with this
18 [The witness stands down]
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Because I would like to know where this statement of
20 25th of March, 2000 to the Office of the Prosecutor was taken.
21 MR. JONES: -- I asked for the witness to be excused. I wonder if
22 I could address the Court on that matter.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes.
24 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour --
25 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't want you to be -- pardon? Let's answer this
1 question first.
2 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I can assist the Court with
3 answering that question. Your Honour, it became apparent yesterday as I
4 was proofing the witness that what is being referred to as the Zvornik
5 statement, the statement given to an investigative Judge, was not, in
6 fact -- she, Ms. Bozic, claims that she did not in fact go to Zvornik.
7 The only time she went to Zvornik was to speak is our investigator. So
8 whenever she refers to the Zvornik statement is what she in her mind
9 refers as -- as referring to the 2000 statement given to our investigator.
10 I'm aware that there is a 1994 statement and it says it was given
11 to an investigative judge in Zvornik. She claimed she never went to
12 Zvornik, as she's already testified to prior -- previously. So that's
13 where the confusion is coming in. I think if counsel would -- would
14 identify exactly which statement he's referring to by saying the statement
15 that you gave to the investigator without referring to Zvornik, it
16 might -- it might clarify to her exactly what statement he's referring to.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
18 MS. RICHARDSON: That's just a suggestion.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Mr. Jones.
20 MR. JONES: Your Honour, it's more than --
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Ms. Richardson.
22 MR. JONES: It's more than a practical matter referring to the
23 statement. It's the fact that this is the second witness who has
24 completely denied ever making a statement before in Zvornik in 1994. Our
25 concern is to know what -- what in fact is going on here, because she is
1 saying that she hasn't given a statement to a junk in Zvornik and yet we
2 have a document which purports to be a record of a witness interview.
3 And, you know, if this continues, if witness after witness is going to
4 raise this issue, then something fishy is going on, and we feel it needs
5 to be clarified.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Usually --
7 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, if I may --
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Richardson, usually these interviews by
9 investigating judges in the territory of the former Yugoslavia, we always
10 had the -- we had the translations but we also had them in the original.
11 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I believe we could locate an
12 original. If I could just have a moment.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Because there would be a signature affixed and
14 one could control better. I am very much suspecting at the moment that
15 what has really happened, that what has really happened is that she did go
16 once to Zvornik to make a statement, and that I think we can establish now
17 more or less, I hope, with -- without great difficulties. And she did
18 hint, however, that at a certain point in time someone went to her
19 residence and she gave a statement there. Or she was interviewed there.
20 That's how I understood her.
21 MR. JONES: I'm --
22 JUDGE AGIUS: I did not understand, however, that that was not
23 referring to the witness -- to the statement given in Zvornik. I took it
24 as -- as indicative of it being that statement. After all, the statement
25 does not say that it was given in Zvornik. It only says that it was given
1 to -- before an investigating judge of the lower court in Zvornik. So
2 that in Zvornik is in relation to the office of that particular
3 investigating judge. At least in English that's how I read it. It may
4 not be like that in the original language, and I stand to be corrected.
5 But I think we can bring in the witness and try to clarify this.
6 MR. JONES: Yes. I think with this witness we may leave it there.
7 It's matter which we'll continue to look into.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay. But indeed this is not the first
9 case where this matter has arisen, and I don't know whether we are going
10 to encounter statements made in the territory of the ex-Yugoslavia,
11 statements made in Germany, statements made in several other places. So
12 nothing to be excluded, of course.
13 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, Your Honour. As -- as you just said --
14 JUDGE AGIUS: You can bring her in.
15 MS. RICHARDSON: It's the witness who will testify as to what
16 information she gave and who came to her home.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: But that's how I understood her.
18 MS. RICHARDSON: And --
19 JUDGE AGIUS: I understood her that at one time she went to
20 Zvornik. Another time she was visited and she made a statement in her
22 MS. RICHARDSON: That's correct.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: But it will not be the first time that I have
24 misunderstood a witness, and it won't be the last time either.
25 [The witness takes the stands]
1 JUDGE AGIUS: If you want me to clarify it, I clarify it.
2 Otherwise we move ahead.
3 MR. JONES: No, Your Honour, we can move ahead.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, madam. And we are going to continue now.
6 MR. JONES: Yes.
7 Q. Ms. Bozic, a few more questions. You've told us that you saw, I
8 think it's your uncle's house on fire on the 5th of October; is that
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And as you saw that, you were, as you said, fleeing for your life
12 essentially towards the Drina. You were running to escape the shooting.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. You were excited, to say the least.
15 A. Of course. I was afraid. I was running.
16 Q. You weren't -- you weren't standing there watching events in your
17 village. You were -- you were running away.
18 A. We were running towards the Drina, and on that day we crossed over
19 to the other side.
20 Q. I think you said that the people you saw around your uncle's
21 house were in uniform; is that right?
22 A. I saw two or three of them in uniform, but this was very briefly
23 because I wasn't close to the houses. I was in the field, and my son had
24 gone to eat lunch. So I started running towards my house to call him so
25 that we could escape.
1 Q. Let's establish first of all how many people you saw around the
2 house. How many people were there?
3 A. Maybe three. Three or four. They were just below the house.
4 Everything was happening very quickly. You know how it is. You're
5 running to save your life.
6 Q. So those three or four people, can you describe what each of them
7 were wearing, whether they were wearing full uniform or a shirt or what
9 A. I really wasn't able to. I only saw the top part. I didn't see
10 the bottom. Everything was happening quickly. I could see perhaps there
11 were three houses away from my house and that house was burned, the house
12 of Radoje Bozic. So that's when I saw them. And after that, we fled
13 because everything was happening very quickly.
14 Q. You say three people and you only saw the top part. Were they all
15 wearing camouflage tops or just one or two of them?
16 A. From what I could see, they were wearing something with a pattern.
17 I wasn't so close in order to really see what it was, but from what I
18 could see, I could see that it was a multicoloured uniform. I openly saw
19 them very briefly. After that we ran away.
20 Q. Was it olive-grey in colour or green or brown? What were the
21 colour of the tops?
22 A. From what I could see, it was green. Green. That's what -- how I
23 saw it.
24 Q. Could it be that one or more of those people were simply wearing
25 green shirts or green tops as opposed to any sort of uniform?
1 A. I don't know. I just saw something that looked like a top. I
2 didn't see the shirts or anything. I wasn't close.
3 Q. Is it possible that these could be three men wearing green tops
4 but not necessarily wearing uniforms or being soldiers of any army? Is
5 that possible?
6 A. I don't know. I was maybe afraid. I can't really say.
7 Everything was happening very quickly. We were running towards the Drina,
8 to the fields. You were just trying to get by.
9 Q. And then you mentioned three other houses which you saw burning, I
10 think; is that right?
11 A. I saw that one that was burning later when we were on the bank of
12 the Drina River, because I said on a couple of occasions that the houses
13 were below the woods. So I could see smoke coming from those other three
14 houses, Milic Bozic, Obren Vasic, and Radivoje Katanic.
15 Q. And for those houses, it's right, isn't it, that you didn't see at
16 all who might have started the fires if anyone did?
17 A. No, I didn't see. All you could see was smoke from the roof. You
18 could see it burning, but I didn't see. We were running, and then you
19 could just see the smoke coming from the houses.
20 Q. And as far as the first house, your uncle's house is concern, it's
21 right, isn't it, that you didn't actually see the people you mentioned
22 setting fire to the house. You saw them among the house and then flames.
23 Isn't that correct?
24 A. Around the house. I saw them around the house. I don't know
25 whether those people set it on fire or someone else. I can't say. I
1 didn't see it. But the house did burn down, and it -- there was a lot of
2 smoke. It started smoking immediately.
3 Q. It's right also, isn't it, that there was a lot of gunfire that
4 day. You've mentioned buildings being pockmarked with gunfire.
5 A. There were not very big holes. You could just see it like that
6 from the bullets. This was on those houses that did not burn down. We
7 saw that once we came back.
8 Q. And isn't it also right that as you were going towards the Drina
9 that there was fire coming from Serbia, artillery fire, grenades, that
10 sort of thing, being shot back towards where you were fleeing from?
11 A. Not at the time. There was nothing from Serbia that day when we
12 were running towards the Drina. I didn't hear anything. That's where the
13 village was. There was nothing of a military nature in Serbia. I didn't
14 see or hear anything like that on that day. No, not that day when we were
15 crossing over.
16 Q. You've said - I think four times now - not at the time was there
17 shooting from Serbia, not that day. When -- when was there shooting from
18 the across the Drina that you were aware of from Serbia?
19 A. I don't know. I didn't hear firing from Serbia, not where our
20 village was, around our village. But I don't know if there was anything
21 somewhere else. The Drina valley is large. There are many villages. I
22 did not hear or see anything like that, no.
23 Q. Now, you've said -- you mentioned these four houses suffering fire
24 damage. That's out of 25 houses in your village, isn't it? In other
25 words, the other 21 houses were not damaged?
1 Sorry, could you answer the question audibly. The other houses,
2 the other 21 houses in your village were not damaged on the 5th of
3 October, were they?
4 A. No, no. They didn't burn. Not all the houses burned down. In
5 other villages, too, there were some houses that burned down and some that
6 remained. In that village and other villages also.
7 Q. And your house was all right, wasn't it? You went back there to
8 get clothes the next day, so it was undamaged.
9 A. No, it wasn't.
10 Q. Now, you mentioned today that some cows and sheep might have been
11 taken. But it's right, isn't it, that you don't know who would have taken
12 livestock from your village?
13 A. I don't know.
14 Q. And other livestock remained which you said you heard moaning and
15 crying. I presume that's because they weren't being milked. But no -- in
16 other words, livestock remained in your village as well. It wasn't all
18 A. No, not all of it was taken. Some cattle was taken and some
19 wasn't, because there was cattle out in the fields. They were grazing out
20 in the fields.
21 Q. I have just one final question, one final matter. I wonder if the
22 usher could please put the next document on the ELMO.
23 MR. JONES: I think I can take this matter in a few minutes and
24 then I'll be finished with my questions, so perhaps it's appropriate to
25 deal with this last matter.
1 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I take that you are finishing your
3 cross-examination now, basically.
4 MR. JONES: Yes, with this exhibit.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I just want to know whether you have a
6 long re-examination.
7 MS. RICHARDSON: Pardon me. I don't have a necessarily long
8 examination, but I think this would be a good time to take a break because
9 I do have several questions.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. But I suppose I will let Mr. Jones finish
11 first and then we'll have a short break and try to finish unless there is
12 a consensus from everyone that we proceed.
13 MR. JONES: Your Honour, I just want to -- I've lost a couple of
14 minutes now. I wonder if I could deal with this after the break because I
15 will have to interrupt you.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Certainly. We will have a break. 25 minutes.
17 Thank you.
18 --- Recess taken at 12.28 p.m.
19 --- On resuming at 12.58 p.m.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Jones. You were about to show the witness
21 a new document that you are seeking to tender in evidence, I suppose.
22 MR. JONES: Yes, that's right, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead.
24 MR. JONES: If the witness could be shown the document, first of
25 all, just with the first page.
1 Q. I'll just ask you, Mrs. Bozic, to have a look at the first page
2 of that document, the cover page, which is actually on the desk. The
3 cover page. Yes.
4 If I can ask you, Mrs. Bozic, just to look at that. That's the
5 list of killed fighters of the VRS army of Republika Srpska. I want to
6 ask you, today you mentioned people who died on the 5th of October, 1992,
7 and so I'd ask you to turn to the first page of that document. Firstly,
8 if you could just look at the top, the top row, and just correct me if I'm
9 wrong, but you see there a number, last name, father's name, first name,
10 year of birth, place of birth, date of death, place of death, and then a
11 certificate number which we can come to later, and date of issuing the
12 certificate, I presume that is.
13 And now you'll see in this table that there are various people
14 mentioned with the date of death of the 5th of October, 1992, and the
15 place of death, Fakovici and Boljevici. And so what I want to ask you is
16 you mentioned some names today. I'm going to take you to some names here,
17 and you tell me whether that's the person who you were referring to.
18 Firstly number 13 on the list, Milovan Djokic, born in 1935,
19 Father Drago. Is that the person you referred to as having died on that
21 A. Milovan Djokic, yes.
22 Q. Father's name Drago?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And I'll go through the names fairly rapidly, so just correct me
25 if any of the details seem incorrect. Sreten Djokic, number 14. And if
1 he died on the 5th of October, you can just say yes.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Djoko Djokic, number 16. He died on that day? Yes.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Svetozar Djokic, number 18, you mentioned.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. It's right, isn't it, that he was born in 1965?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. I want to actually briefly deal with numbers 26 and 27, Ratko
10 Djukic and Rajko Djukic. Is it right that they weren't -- that they
11 didn't die on the 5th of October, 1992, but on some other occasion?
12 A. No, they didn't die then.
13 Q. And now number 31, Vidoje Djukic, son of Radovan. Did he die on
14 the 5th of October to your knowledge?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Now turn to page 6. I draw your attention to number 178. You see
17 that -- push that up a little bit. Number 178. Oh, my apologies. It's
18 difficult to see.
19 Miroslav Ivanovic, son of Milan. Did he die on the 5th of
20 October, 1992?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And is it right that he was born in 1973 and so was 19 or 20 years
23 old at the time?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Turn to numbers 303 and 304 on that list, which is page 9 in the
1 English version at the bottom, and in Bosnian it's 3 303 and 304. And I
2 think those are brothers, aren't they Radoje and Radomir Markovic, the
3 sons of Stevo? Are they the Markovic brothers who you referred to as
4 dying on the 5th of October?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Now I'd move to page 15 in the English, numbers 505 and 506, 511.
7 Zarija Ristic, son of Novica, is someone you mentioned, isn't it, as dying
8 on that day?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Milutin Ristic as well?
11 A. [No translation].
12 Q. And number 511, Radovan Savic, son of Jovo?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. It's right, isn't it, that he too was a young man when he died?
15 27, suppose.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: 29, I think.
17 MR. JONES: My apologies. Math's not my strong suit.
18 Q. Is that right? He was a young man when he died on that day?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And then finally number 612 on the list, page 18 in the English,
21 Vladan Vasic, born in your village, Boljevici. Again, someone who you say
22 died on the 5th of October, 1992?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Now, is it your evidence that these -- none of these people were
25 soldiers when they died?
1 A. Yes. They were civilians in the village. They were there.
2 Q. Every single one of the names we've mentioned?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Can you help us with what the -- the last column, the certificate
5 and the date of issuing the certificate, do you know what certificates
6 that might refer to? If you can help us with that, then fine. Don't
7 worry if not.
8 A. What's that?
9 Q. You look at the document and you see the last column, certificate
10 number, date of issuing.
11 MR. JONES: I'm withdraw that question.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: I think it's better. Thank you, Mr. Jones.
13 MR. JONES: Thank you. No further questions.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Ms. Richardson.
15 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour.
16 Re-examined by Ms. Richardson:
17 Q. Mrs. Bozic --
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes, before. I take it that you are tendering
19 this in evidence, and this will be D44 or 45.
20 MR. JONES: Yes.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: D45.
22 MR. JONES: My apologies for that oversight.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. And I thank Judge Eser for drawing my
25 Yes, Ms. Richardson.
1 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour.
2 Q. Mrs. Bozic, you just testified that you know the individuals that
3 counsel just -- the names of the individuals and as well as the
4 individuals themselves who died in October of 1992. I would ask you to --
5 and that you are, excuse me, not aware that they were fighters. Is that
7 A. They were there in the village. They were working there in their
8 own village. They didn't go anywhere else. And then the attack, and then
9 some were brewing brandy for the Slava holiday, and some were working the
10 land. All of them were civilians. No one wore any military uniforms or
12 Q. Thank you. With respect to Milovan Djokic, he was born in 1935.
13 Do you recall what he did for a living?
14 A. Well, he was working the land for a living. He lived off his
15 land. He was a farmer. He did not have any other job. He worked the
16 land. That's what he did. That's -- that was his livelihood.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Richardson, couldn't you have asked this
18 question before? How do you classify it as re-examination?
19 MS. RICHARDSON: Well, Your Honour, I'm just seeking to clarify
20 what Defence counsel -- what was raised by the Defence counsel as he went
21 through the list, and certainly --
22 JUDGE AGIUS: He just asked a simple question.
23 MS. RICHARDSON: Well, Your Honour, I would --
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Whether they were military conscripts or --
25 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I have only one additional question
1 with respect to these individuals.
2 Could I have one moment, Your Honour, just to confer.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes.
4 [Prosecution counsel confer]
5 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour. I just want to make one
6 remark with respect to the document that was just used to cross-examine
7 this witness. We received this document -- we received the ERN number, I
8 believe, of the document last night about 8.00 o'clock. We just received
9 this morning -- just this minute the initial version. We'd not been given
10 prior notice as I think should -- is what should be -- should be done in a
11 case like this if you're going to use such an extensive document, and the
12 Defence did not provide us with any notice last evening at 8.00 o'clock
13 when they sent over ERN numbers, and today we're only now being provided
14 with English versions of these documents, and so since counsel went into
15 the list of individuals, made a point of -- a point of indicating their
16 date of birth, I think it's -- I think it's only fair that this witness be
17 allowed to tell Your Honours the approximate ages of these individuals as
18 they were not all young individuals. Some of them were elderly, and
19 clearly she's aware that they were people working in the village.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: That we certainly will allow, yes.
21 MR. JONES: May I respond as far as is this document is concern.
22 We did, as has been the practice, send an e-mail to the Prosecution
23 setting out the exhibits we intended to use, and we spoke to our learned
24 friend this morning and we understood that no issue was going to be raised
25 about possibly late service of documents. I'm surprised that having
1 discussed that with my learned friend that it is now being made an issue.
2 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I only raise it now because
3 counsel -- because you inquired whether -- why I had not used it earlier,
4 and that's the only reason it's being raised.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no. I did not inquire why you had not used it
6 earlier. I inquired why you did not ask the witness about details
7 relating to each of the persons that she testified she saw dead in the
8 mortuary on such-and-such a date in October.
9 MS. RICHARDSON: Well, Your Honour, I am just seeking to clarify
10 on re-examination her knowledge of these witnesses, who they were, and
11 their date of birth, and what they did for a living, which I think it's
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes, okay. Go ahead. I don't think it's going
14 to change much, but let's go ahead.
15 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you.
16 Q. Ms. Bozic, you also testified that you know the individual called
17 Zarija Ristic, and I think that's number 505 on the document that was
18 shown to you. And is it a fact that you are aware that this person was
19 born in 1928 and was elderly at the time in --
20 A. I know that he was an old man, but I don't know when he was born,
21 what year. I know he was an old or elderly man.
22 Q. And what did he do for a living?
23 A. He was a construction worker, a bricklayer. He worked in the
24 village on a farm. That was his occupation. He did not work in a company
25 or anything. He was a bricklayer, a construction worker.
1 Q. And as far as you know, was he a member of the VRS, the Serb
3 A. I don't know. I don't know that he was. He was from Boljevici.
4 We saw each other occasionally in the village. We both worked there.
5 That's how it was. He was there in the village. Whether he was a member
6 or not, I have no idea. I saw him wear civilian clothes. Our pieces of
7 land were adjacent, and we worked together.
8 Q. And you recall seeing his body when you visited Banja Basta?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Was he dressed in military clothing?
11 A. No.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: You put this question already.
13 MS. RICHARDSON: I'm move on, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: You put the question in relation to all the bodies
15 that you saw in the mortuary.
16 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I'll move on.
17 Q. Now, I'd just like to clear up with you, Mrs. Bozic, and for Your
18 Honours as well, the two statements that you previously gave with respect
19 to the events of October 5, 1992. Now, do you recall speaking with an
20 investigator from the Tribunal in 2000 and giving him a statement?
21 A. In Zvornik.
22 Q. If that's where the -- you gave him the statement, could you tell
23 us? Was it in Zvornik?
24 A. In Zvornik. I gave a statement once in Zvornik.
25 Q. Was there -- did this individual that -- to whom you gave the
1 statement, did he speak English and was an interpreter translating into
2 your own language?
3 A. Yes, there was. I talked. There was an interpreter who was
4 interpreting for that person.
5 Q. And prior to giving this statement, do you remember talking to
6 anyone else and anyone else taking a statement from you regarding the
7 events of 1992?
8 A. I was being proofed yesterday, and that woman told me there were
9 two statements that were made in Zvornik. I only know of one statement
10 that I gave, as you said awhile ago. And then I remembered, but if I
11 could imagine all the ramifications, I don't know. People came over. I
12 went to the field to gather the corn. It was autumn, and I can't remember
13 the specific date. One woman and one man came over, and they said, "Well,
14 someone wants to see you back home." I was away from home for a while,
15 but then I went back. And like I say, they told me that they needed some
16 statements from me in relation to my mother's death. They came to see me
17 at home. I didn't ask who they were or where they'd come from. They had
18 an interpreter. And I just gave them my is story, something briefly, and
19 that's what they wrote down and they left. I never asked them who they
20 were and where they'd come from. I wasn't interested. I didn't want to
21 know. I didn't check. Like I said, I didn't know. So those people left,
22 and I went back to do work out in the field. And I only gave a statement
23 once in Zvornik, like I said awhile ago. This person who had an
24 interpreter, these other people, had not used the services of an
25 interpreter. They just took a statement. They wrote something down and
1 they were off. And that's what I remember. That's how it happened. Two
2 statements, well, two statements.
3 Q. Okay. If I can just ask you to think back in your mind. Was the
4 statement given to -- given to the two individuals who did not use an
5 interpreter that came to your house, and this was in 1994, do you recall,
6 or some -- sometime about that period?
7 A. I don't know what the year was. I know they came. It wasn't long
8 after the attacks. Whether it was 1994 I don't know. Please believe me.
9 I simply failed to write down the date. I didn't realise that I would
10 need it. Probably I would have written the date down, but I didn't
11 because I had no idea what would come of it.
12 Q. That's fine. Now, when they took the statement -- you gave them a
13 statement at your home. This is not in Zvornik; is that correct?
14 A. Yes. No. No. No, not in Zvornik, back home. They came to see
15 me there.
16 Q. And just to clarify, they did not use an interpreter but they
17 spoke in your own language?
18 A. Yes. Yes.
19 Q. Did they tell you who they were and where they were from?
20 A. No. No. They told me nothing. Had they told me anything, I
21 probably would now know who they were.
22 Q. And after you spoke with them, they wrote something down and gave
23 you to sign and you signed it? Do you remember?
24 A. Yes. I signed. I did sign, but I didn't ask any questions, nor
25 did I read the statement, nor did they read back to me what they had
1 written down, nor did I request to read the statement. I paid no
2 attention whatsoever to that.
3 Q. Now, counsel previously asked you about portions of this
4 statement, and I would only read this portion to you, and it's on page 2
5 of the statement that was taken on the 10th of October, 1994. The portion
6 where -- that was read to you specifically stating that the men in the
7 village quickly organised themselves and put up powerful resistance to the
8 attacker who were thwarted and who directed their attack to the
9 neighbouring village of Dijovici. Did you tell this to those two
10 individuals who took the statement from you? Is that a correct statement?
11 Did that in fact happen?
12 A. I don't know that. I didn't. I didn't say that.
13 Q. And secondly, further down the page, on page 2 there is a single
14 sentence towards the bottom of the paragraph, towards the bottom of the
15 last paragraph, and I'm going to read this to you, and please tell us if
16 this is a true statement: "The attack of the Muslims lasted 16 hours, and
17 during that time I did not leave the house or see what was happening." Is
18 this a true statement?
19 A. No, that's not true. That's not true. I didn't enter the house
20 at all. I came there. I called out. I told you about how many
21 statements I'd given. I called my child, and we -- he came out, and we
22 ran straight to the Drina. It never occurred to me for a minute that I
23 should enter the house. We just ran as fast as we could to find a place
24 where we could take cover. I don't know. I didn't say that. I was never
25 in the house for a minute. This really surprises me. I never entered the
1 house to begin with.
2 Q. Thank you.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you have the original?
4 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour, please.
5 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, we have -- we have --
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Perhaps if it is shown to the witness maybe she can
7 tell us whether she recognises her signature, even though she has stated
8 that she affixed her signature irrespective of the contents of the --
9 MS. RICHARDSON: That's fine, Your Honour. I do have a copy of
10 the B/C/S. Unfortunately, I believe Defence was already given a copy of
11 this as part of our disclosure and the exhibits.
12 MR. JONES: Yes, we have it.
13 MS. RICHARDSON: If the witness could be shown her signature -- be
14 shown the statement and also her signature portion.
15 Q. I would ask, Mrs. Bozic, if you recognise your signature on this
17 A. Yes. I recognise my own signature, and I did put my signature
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Fine.
20 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you.
21 Q. And you didn't read this statement before you placed your
22 signature? Just so that we're clear.
23 A. No. No, I didn't.
24 Q. And they didn't read it back to you?
25 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. Did they --
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, they didn't.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: -- typewriter with them?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They -- they wrote it down by hand.
4 I don't know. Well, I know they were writing something. Whatever it was,
5 they were writing.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Writing or typing?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was a typewriter.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. That explains it. Okay. Of course, writing
9 is one thing. Typewriting is another.
10 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: So they had the machine with them.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.
14 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
16 MS. RICHARDSON:
17 Q. Ms. Bozic, with respect to your membership in the SDS, as you were
18 just asked previously by the Defence counsel, do you recall going to any
19 political meetings in 1990 or thereafter?
20 A. No. No.
21 Q. Do you recall receiving a membership number from the SDS party?
22 A. No, no. I don't have a number. I never received a number. I had
23 no where to get it.
24 Q. Is this the first day that you are learning that you were listed
25 as a member of the SDS?
1 A. First I hear of it. I was really surprised.
2 Q. Now, with respect to the men that you observed attacking your
3 village that were wearing uniforms, when you first --
4 MR. JONES: Just --
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
6 MR. JONES: The evidence of the witness was that she saw men in
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Green.
9 MR. JONES: So if we start from that point, then my learned friend
10 can develop from there, but we don't have evidence of men in uniforms at
11 this point.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. But she never agreed with you that they were
13 wearing the gear of some Irish team.
14 MR. JONES: No, indeed, Your Honour. But the possibility seemed
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.
17 MS. RICHARDSON: I believe on direct the witness did state that
18 these were soldiers and they were wearing uniforms.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Go ahead, Ms. Richardson.
20 MS. RICHARDSON:
21 Q. The uniforms that you observed them wearing, were they similar
22 uniforms? Did they look similar? In other words, the number -- you saw
23 three to four of them, I believe. If I'm misstating your testimony,
24 please correct me. And tell us if they were similar in likeness. Did
25 they look alike?
1 A. Well, you know, it was only for a brief moment that I saw them.
2 They were similar, but I didn't have time to just stand there and observe
3 them. It was like I said several times, I only came a bit closer -- I
4 came nearer the house for my child so that he could hear me and so that we
5 could run away. I just saw them for a brief moment. Didn't make sense.
6 And later on we withdrew towards the Drina. You couldn't see anything
7 between the houses, who the people were, what they were wearing. I didn't
8 recognise any one, as I said on a couple of occasions. I didn't identify
9 a single person, first to be able to say who they were specifically. I
10 just didn't.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Richardson.
12 MS. RICHARDSON: And you were previously asked about whether there
13 was a lot of shooting going on in the village during the attack. Could
14 you tell who was doing the actual shooting? Was it the people, the
16 A. What do you mean shooting? When the attack took place, yes, of
17 course there was shooting.
18 Q. And who was shooting?
19 A. What do you mean?
20 Q. Well, you saw people shooting; correct?
21 JUDGE AGIUS: You can go direct. Was it your own people shooting
22 or the Muslims that were attacking the village, or someone else?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, there was shooting from the
24 woods above during the attack. That's when the shooting occurred. But I
25 didn't see anyone. You couldn't just stand there and watch.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: And the shooting was in the direction -- in which
2 direction? The direction of the village?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From the woods, that's where it came
4 from. There is no village nearby for me to say that it came from another
5 village. It was from the woods. And there are other villages further
6 down, away from our village. I said yesterday there were those two Muslim
7 villages. That was that. But that is in the woodlands, and it's far away
8 from our village. There was shooting coming from the woods and that's
9 what I knew, but it wasn't near the village.
10 MS. RICHARDSON:
11 Q. Were the people in your village shooting?
12 A. No.
13 Q. With respect to the house that you testified to earlier that you
14 observed burning, the house of Radoje Bozic -- Bozic --
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. -- could you tell us what you saw when you first observed this
17 house as you were fleeing? In other words, could you tell us about the
18 soldiers that you saw?
19 A. Well, I saw a couple of people there around the house, and then we
20 just ran away. I know nothing about what was happening after that. I saw
21 that the house had caught fire and there was smoke rising from the house.
22 I didn't exactly go back to watch. We ran towards the Drina and we
23 crossed the river into Serbia.
24 Q. Was the house burning before the attack?
25 A. No.
1 MR. JONES: Your Honour, that completes my re-examination.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Judge Brydensholt from Denmark would
3 like to put some questions to you.
4 Questioned by the Court:
5 JUDGE BRYDENSHOLT: I understand that under the attack on your
6 village four houses were burnt down, whereas the other houses, 20, 21
7 houses, were not burned but you could see where there had been bullets
8 fired at them. Have you any idea why is it that only the four houses --
9 we have heard of other villages where all the houses were burnt. Have you
10 any explanation for that?
11 A. I don't know. Only four houses were burned in our village, but in
12 the neighbouring villages some houses or many houses were burned, but not
13 all were burned down. Some stayed, and some were burned down. So the
14 same thing occurred in the other villages as in our own.
15 JUDGE BRYDENSHOLT: Did the men in your village have weapons, for
16 instance, for hunting in the woods and so on? Was it common to have
17 hunting rifles or guns?
18 A. Well, before the war, there were people who were hunting, and they
19 did have weapons. A couple of people from the village had hunting rifles.
20 I don't know if their rifles were there or whether they were in the
21 houses, whether they were farther away. I don't know. But there were a
22 couple of people from my village who were hunters before the war, and
23 they're hunting now. Today they also go hunting.
24 JUDGE BRYDENSHOLT: When you -- when you say that there was no
25 fighting in the way that there was no shooting from your -- from the Serb
1 side, wasn't there any of those men who were defending their homes when
2 you were attacked? In other words, did the men fly together with you
3 towards Drina when you left or were the men standing behind in the village
4 to defend the homes? Have you any idea?
5 A. There were very few men in the village. I said that. Those who
6 were there were mostly the elderly. There were some people from the
7 villages that were getting ready for their family saint's day celebration.
8 They stayed at home, but mostly those who were in the village were elderly
9 people, except for those few younger people who were going to -- doing
10 preparations for the family saint's day feast. They were going to shop
11 and things for that holiday.
12 JUDGE BRYDENSHOLT: Did -- as you remember, did all the men, older
13 and younger, did they flee together with you towards the river?
14 A. Yes.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Judge Brydensholt.
16 Judge Eser from Germany would like to put some questions to you.
17 JUDGE ESER: Mrs. Bozic, would like to come back to the problem of
18 the Houses. Part of them have been burned, others have not. Now, how do
19 we have to understand you? Those houses who have not been burned down,
20 does it mean that they have not even been set into flames or was it that
21 the type of houses could not be burned down? So my question is: Have
22 there been certain houses which have completely burnt down and other
23 houses which not have been put in fire at all?
24 A. Those who were not burned down were not set on fire. The ones
25 that were burned -- set on fire, they burned down. The other ones, the
1 other houses, did not burn down.
2 JUDGE ESER: And you do not have an explanation why certain houses
3 had been burned and others not?
4 A. No. No, I don't. I don't know anything about the how and why of
6 JUDGE ESER: I have another question. When you gave testimony
7 with regard to Muslims who left the village, and you have been asked what
8 happened to the harvest, to the crops and so on, you gave testimony that
9 you did not have time to take care of these crops since you even didn't
10 have time enough to take care of you were own crops; is that correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 JUDGE ESER: With regard to the cattle, if the Muslims have left
13 cattle, what happened to these cattle? I assume that cattle needs some
14 sort of food. Did you leave the cattle on their own or did you give them
15 some food or what happened? What else did happen to this cattle?
16 A. I don't know what happened to that cattle there. I didn't go
17 there to that village. I didn't go there from my own village. I don't
18 know what happened with the cattle, who took it. All I know is that in my
19 village, nobody brought any cattle into the village from there. I don't
20 know if others did anything like that. I really cannot tell you anything,
21 because I didn't go there. I don't know anything about it. To tell you
22 the truth, I wasn't really interested. I was just minding my own
23 business, working, that's all.
24 JUDGE ESER: But isn't it rather unusual that people would perhaps
25 let cry cattle for food and without doing anything about it?
1 A. I don't know. I don't know if anybody went to do anything. But I
2 didn't go, so I really cannot tell you anything about it because I don't
3 know. I don't know. I'm really not aware of anything about that. I
4 really don't know.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Judge Eser. I have got a final
6 question to you, madam, and then you can go.
7 Do you know Naser Mahmutovic?
8 A. I did know him before. This is a man from Zanjevo. I did know
9 him. But -- I don't know. When the attack took place, I can't say if I
10 saw this person or that person. There wasn't time to look and think. We
11 were running, saving our lives. The people who were in the houses, they
12 were killed. That's all.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you know Edhem Mahmutovic?
14 A. That is also a person from Zanjevo. I knew him as well. It's
15 elderly man.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: And do you know Ibrahim Mujkic?
17 A. I also knew him. These were all people from Zanjevo. That wasn't
18 so far from us.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Did anyone mention these names to you as having been
20 involved in the attack on the village where your mother lived?
21 A. No. No. Nobody told me that they recognised them. Nobody told
22 me that, and I -- well, there's a creek, and then on the other side of the
23 creek there's a village. There's that village. So I can't really say
24 that I recognised anyone or that anyone told me that those people were
25 there. No, nobody told me anything like that.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Did you ever mention these names to the two persons,
2 that man and a woman who came with the typewriter and interviewed you in
3 your house? Did you mention those three names to them?
4 A. I don't know that I mentioned them. I don't know. I don't
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Did they mention them to you?
7 A. I don't remember that either.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. That brings us to the end of your
9 testimony, Madam Bozic. On behalf of the Tribunal and on behalf of Judge
10 Brydensholt and Judge Eser and of course on my own behalf, I should like
11 to thank you for having come over to give testimony in this case. You
12 will now be escorted by Madam Usher, and I can assure you that you will
13 receive all the assistance you require to facilitate your return back
15 My last words to you is that on behalf of everyone present, I
16 should like to wish you a safe journey back home, and thank you.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
18 [The witness withdrew]
19 JUDGE AGIUS: So again once more I wish to thank you both for
20 restricting yourself to the time schedule that we have fixed beforehand or
21 we agreed to beforehand. Tomorrow we have another witness, and I take it
22 that this witness will also last no longer than tomorrow. Okay?
23 MR. JONES: Yes, I think that's right. Your Honour, may I just
24 mention that we are very keen to have a witness list for after the break.
25 It's vital for our work.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm afraid I can't give it to you myself. So I
2 exhort the -- I'm sure that Ms. Sellers and her team will do that.
3 MS. SELLERS: Certainly. We'll try and do that. As a matter of
4 fact, we already have a temporary one, and of course it is dependent again
5 upon certain things like videolink and witness line-up, but we'll
6 certainly try and facilitate that.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Exactly. I think if you file the response on the
8 videolink we can have it decided this week or early next week before I
9 leave. That's -- we can decide also if we have this specialist
10 neurologist visiting that witness. We can also decide on how to proceed,
11 or whether we will have the 92(C) testimony or whether we could also
12 possibly have a videolink with him. I mean, I don't know. That's another
13 option that one could leave open.
14 Yeah. Let's work on these matters, and I'm sure that the few days
15 when we will not be sitting will be put to great use by both of you.
16 I thank you. We will reconvene here tomorrow, same hall, same
17 courtroom, okay, at 9.00 in the morning.
18 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.45 p.m.,
19 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 28th day of
20 October, 2004, at 9.00 a.m.