Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1440

1 Friday, 29 October 2004

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.15 a.m.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Please be seated.

5 [The accused entered court]

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Good morning. Registrar, could you call the

7 case, please.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Case number

9 IT-03-68-T, the Prosecutor versus Naser Oric.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning, Mr. Oric.

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: I want to make sure that you can follow the

13 proceedings in a language that you can understand.

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Indeed I can, Your Honours.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. You may sit down.

16 Appearances for the Prosecution,.

17 MR. WUBBEN: Good morning, Your Honours. My name is Jan Wubben,

18 Senior Trial Attorney. Together with me co-counsel Mr. Gramsci Di Fazio,

19 and our case manager Donnica Henry-Frijlink.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you and your team. Appearances for

21 Naser Oric.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours, I'm

23 Vasvija Vidovic together with Mr. John Jones on behalf of Mr. Naser Oric.

24 We are joined today which our legal assistant Ms. Jasmina Cosic and our

25 case manager Mr. Geoff Roberts.

Page 1441

1 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Madam Vidovic, and good morning to you

2 and your team.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Any preliminaries?

4 MR. WUBBEN: Well, Your Honour, last week we discussed your

5 request for a map, an overview.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. In fact, we talked about it yesterday after we

7 finished the sitting. Judge Eser and Judge Brydensholt, and myself.

8 MR. WUBBEN: We finalised that in such a way that we can provide

9 you a black-and-white copy of one map, so merging together.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: That's excellent, Mr. Wubben.

11 MR. WUBBEN: I have here now the copies with me and I would like

12 to tender this. My first reaction is to tender as such, and then I

13 thought shouldn't be an exhibit for the Prosecution, but if you didn't

14 raise it, I wouldn't have asked the mapping unit to do so. It's referring

15 to your request and highlighting or circling the places named in the

16 indictment excepted two hamlets who couldn't be traced as such, but it is

17 a request by Chambers. So I suggest it might be an exhibit for Chambers,

18 but I don't know --

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes, yes. I agree 100 per cent. Do you have

20 any suggestions to that, Madam Vidovic?

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, first we should have a

22 look at that map to see what they actually marked on it.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: But apart from that, that stands to reason. Apart

24 from that, we take it that this will be a Trial Chamber document.

25 MR. WUBBEN: In addition to that, Your Honour, the two hamlets

Page 1442

1 named are near Ratkovici, the hamlets not on the map that are circled like

2 that are Bradjevina and Gornji Ratkovici.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Then we will find them. Don't worry. We have

4 Ratkovici? We have. So this will be -- yes, Madam Vidovic.

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] The Prosecutor, in fact, marked the

6 places referred to in the indictment. Therefore, we have no objections,

7 Your Honours.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. This will be document TC1.

9 THE REGISTRAR: C1.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, it's okay. I don't want to quarrel with you

11 on an extra letter. I mean, definitely not, not on Friday. Had it been

12 Monday, I would have made a casus belli out of it, but on Friday you win

13 the day.

14 Anything further from you, Mr. Wubben?

15 MR. WUBBEN: Yes, Your Honour. Yesterday we filed the motion on

16 our response on judicial notice of adjudicated facts.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

18 MR. WUBBEN: It should be there.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: We have it.

20 MR. WUBBEN: And with a view to the witness list, we filed

21 yesterday -- there was a request from Chambers to -- to have Mr. Gow

22 available for a week rather than three days. Meanwhile, we contacted

23 Mr. Gow in that regard, the question to be available, and it is a fact

24 that he is not available for a whole week. He is available for the 22nd,

25 23rd, and 24th of November. So --

Page 1443

1 JUDGE AGIUS: But that's a week earlier.

2 MR. WUBBEN: No, that's not a week earlier. Oh, you mean like --

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Of course it is a week earlier.

4 MR. WUBBEN: Yes, yes, you're right.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: I know it's Friday, but --

6 MR. WUBBEN: I apologise, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah.

8 MR. WUBBEN: He is available for those three days. If it should

9 be three days and if it should be a week then we should reschedule but

10 this is a tentative schedule list, so we will further refine and update

11 you then.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

13 MR. WUBBEN: But if the Chamber asks us --

14 JUDGE AGIUS: But he is available only 22nd, 23rd, 24th that

15 basically is barely enough to cover the three days that the Defence said

16 they require.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: But I suppose you require him here for a day, a day

18 and a half or a few hours. I don't know.

19 MR. WUBBEN: It will be part of a trial day for two hours, two and

20 a half.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: I wouldn't like to take the risk of them not

22 finishing with him. Though I have my own opinion. I could dispose of

23 that witness in less than one sitting as the -- as the indictment stands

24 now, but anyway.

25 Yes, Madam Vidovic.

Page 1444

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we believe that we

2 shall not require longer than two days with Mr. Gow, I mean. We'll try to

3 organise ourselves in that way.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Then if it's two days the Defence and one day you,

5 you can bring Mr. Gow over 22nd. 22nd is Monday. We start with him, and

6 we finish him off on Wednesday.

7 MR. WUBBEN: Thank you, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I thank you, Madam Vidovic, for telling us

9 that.

10 The other thing is this: We've gone through your response to the

11 Defence motion on taking adjudicated facts from the Deronjic case.

12 Considering the opposition and considering the nature of the facts that

13 the motion of the Defence suggests ought to be taken into -- taken into

14 consideration as adjudicated, we have come to the decision, and this is a

15 verbal decision which will be followed with a very brief written decision,

16 we have come to the conclusion to reject the motion. Definite it's not

17 the case for the Trial Chamber at this point if there is no position on

18 the part of the Prosecution to take those facts as adjudicated.

19 So you are being put on notice that the facts -- relative facts

20 will need to be proved by whoever needs to prove them. And the onus of

21 proof, you know, Mr. Wubben, who carries that onus.

22 The other two, we have the response of the Defence on the

23 protective measures. We got them only minutes before we walked in the

24 courtroom. They are being photocopied and we will discuss them and let

25 you know. But we will let you know before I depart on my way to whatever

Page 1445

1 I have to do abroad.

2 MR. JONES: Your Honour.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Jones.

4 MR. JONES: Yes, Your Honour. We did inside file two responses

5 for protective measures and videolink.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: I have been through them myself but it's really

7 skimming.

8 MR. JONES: Indeed it's just a few minutes ago we handed it to the

9 registry. There is another matter we want to raise before the witness

10 comes in which is this: Yesterday we were served by the Prosecution an

11 exhibit, a photographic exhibit which the Prosecution intends to tender

12 today during the testimony of this witness. We raise the matter now

13 because it's -- it's a matter which in our submission requires serious

14 deliberation on the part of the Chamber and we want to raise it therefore

15 now rather than during the course of examination-in-chief. I'd like to

16 pass up a copy of this photograph so Your Honours can see it.

17 And this photograph which I think it's fair to say is a rather

18 grisly picture of a corpse with what purports to be his sexual organ next

19 to him, and in fact it's even labelled in Serbian to that effect is so --

20 is so, first of all, prejudicial, but secondly, so lacking in probative

21 value that we thought we should raise the issue before the witness comes

22 in. The question we would pose is this: How is that photograph possibly

23 going to help Your Honours to decide the issues in this trial, in

24 particular the issue of whether there was property damage and whether this

25 accused is in any way responsible for that property damage? How is a

Page 1446

1 photograph of that nature going to help you decide that issue? In our

2 submission it's another try for the Prosecution to bring in grisly,

3 sensationalist, gory material into this trial in a completely appropriate

4 manner because this person is not charged with crimes against the person

5 in these raids and we wonder what the Prosecution has forgotten what

6 they've charged Naser Oric with and if they're trying to drag the trial

7 down into a grisly chamber of horrors. In our submission it's completely

8 inappropriate for the Prosecution to seek to tender this material, and we

9 would say at the very least that if this is going to be tendered that it

10 be done so in private session.

11 [Trial Chamber confers]

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Is it you, Mr. Di Fazio, or I don't know who

13 is -- we will be leading this witness.

14 MR. WUBBEN: It's Mr. Di Fazio, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Di Fazio. What do you seek to prove by this

16 photo?

17 MR. DI FAZIO: The photo, if Your Honours please, shows the

18 results of the attack on the -- the village in the area of Ratkovici.

19 This witness is going to give evidence, I hope, that he was in a small

20 hamlet close to Ratkovici and which was subjected to attack on the 27th of

21 June.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: The witness is not watching -- usher, does -- there

23 is no way the witness can hear what we are saying?

24 MR. DI FAZIO: I think he's in --

25 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't know, Mr. Di Fazio. I just want to make

Page 1447

1 sure he's not in a room where you can follow the conversation or the

2 debate.

3 MR. DI FAZIO: He was just above his small hamlet when the attack

4 started. He ran down, as I understand his evidence, ran down to a small

5 area of uncultivated land just above his village where he hid and watched

6 the attack throughout its duration. During the course of the attack, he

7 saw three of the attacking soldiers, people he knew as people of Muslim

8 ethnicity but more importantly, members of the attacking forces dragged

9 the man from -- depicted in the photograph, from his house, stabbed him to

10 death and then he found the body immediately following the attack with the

11 severed penis inside the man's mouth. A number of other people were

12 killed on that day as well, although not necessarily in the area.

13 Now, the purpose of the photograph is A, to show that the man was

14 not a combatant. It tends to assist that. It also is part and parcel of

15 the story of the attack, and it also bolsters the credibility of this

16 particular witness. He gives an account to you, and he can produce a

17 photo that tends to support what he says to you happened. So for those

18 three reasons, the evidence becomes probative.

19 The other issue raised by my learned friend Mr. Jones is the issue

20 that you have heard repeated so often. Firstly, there's an accusation

21 that it's a descent into grisly sensationalist production of evidence.

22 The Prosecution is only aware that if it were to embark on a foolish and

23 obvious course it would become apparent to you immediately. It wouldn't

24 serve our purposes at all. It just doesn't serve our purposes at all. So

25 from that point of view the Prosecution says it's clearly not going down

Page 1448

1 that particular road. It serves no one's purposes.

2 And also, you're able to put aside the grisly aspect of the photo

3 in your capacity as professional Judges. So for all of those reasons, the

4 photo --

5 JUDGE AGIUS: From that point of view, Mr. Di Fazio, when we are

6 still students in the third year and we start doing -- that's in my

7 country -- forensic medicine and forensic sciences, we're taken to

8 post-mortems to assist in post-mortems. So this is certainly not going to

9 impress any of us anyway. We are going to suspend the sitting for a short

10 while, a couple of minutes, to discuss this outside, not in the courtroom,

11 and we'll come back with a decision before we start the testimony of this

12 witness. Thank you.

13 --- Short break taken at 9.32 a.m.

14 --- On resuming at 9.35 a.m.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I thank -- I thank Mr. Jones, I thank

16 Mr. Di Fazio for explaining the problems attached to the production of

17 this -- the intended production of this photo. We have discussed it

18 amongst ourselves, and we have come to the conclusion that it is relevant

19 to the evidence that the witness will be giving or to the events that he

20 will be testifying upon. However, we feel that in the course of his

21 testimony, if and when the Prosecution comes to the stage of using this

22 document, then you should draw our immediate attention so that we go into

23 private session and it is not -- in other words, we deal with that section

24 in private session.

25 MR. DI FAZIO: That was fully my intention.

Page 1449

1 MR. JONES: I am obliged, Your Honour. There is one other matter

2 in that the photograph is labelled on the back.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: That is already in my mind.

4 MR. JONES: So the witness doesn't see that part.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: No. It's okay, Mr. Jones.

6 MR. JONES: Thank you.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: You know how I feel about these things.

8 So can we bring the witness in now? Thank you.

9 How long do you think you require, Mr. Di Fazio?

10 MR. DI FAZIO: Perhaps slightly longer than the other more recent

11 witnesses, if Your Honours please. I -- I'm hoping about two hours. He's

12 got two attacks to describe, and -- and -- and --

13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: [Previous translation continues] ... on certain

15 matters you have our go-ahead to lead provided not on matters which are

16 inherently controversial.

17 MR. DI FAZIO: I understand. That won't be a problem,

18 Your Honour.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: If he performed his compulsory service in the JNA.

20 MR. DI FAZIO: I'm not even going to touch that.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Anyway, just go straight --

22 MR. DI FAZIO: I will. He's got two attacks and presence after an

23 attack at another of the charges.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

25 MR. DI FAZIO: I can raise one matter that made me think about

Page 1450

1 this issue last night and that's this: I wanted to lead him very briefly

2 through some evidence, very briefly, of episodes leading up to the attack

3 in which caused security concerns and tension in the local population. I

4 don't intend to dwell on that very much at all. In fact, I'd like to get

5 through it as quickly as I can.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

7 MR. DI FAZIO: There's a reason for that, and that will be in

8 relation to questions relating to the defence of these villages.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

10 MR. DI FAZIO: That's the only area that --

11 JUDGE AGIUS: We'll see. We cannot commit ourselves to that for

12 the time being. We'll see how you go about it, and then we will decide

13 whether to let you go on or whether to stop you.

14 Yes. Could you bring Stanisa Stevanovic, please.

15 [The witness entered court]

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning, Mr. Stevanovic.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Before I proceed any further, I want to make sure

19 that what I am saying in English is being interpreted to you, translated

20 to you, in your own language. Are you receiving interpretation of what I

21 am saying in your own language or not?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can hear the translation. Thank

23 you.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So you know why you are here. You've been

25 summoned by the Prosecution to give evidence in this case instituted by

Page 1451

1 them against Naser Oric, and in terms of our Rules, before you even start

2 giving evidence, you are required to enter a solemn declaration to the

3 effect that in the course of your testimony here at this trial, you will

4 be testifying the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. This

5 is basically what in your country would be -- and in many other countries

6 would be a solemn declaration, also an oath.

7 The text is contained in a piece of paper which Madam Usher is

8 going to hand to you now. May I ask you to read the text allowed, and

9 that will be your solemn undertaking with us.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I, witness Stevanovic Stanisa,

11 solemnly declare that I will stay the truth, the whole truth, and nothing

12 but truth.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, sir. Could you please take your seat.

14 Thank you.

15 WITNESS: STANISA STEVANOVIC

16 [Witness answered through interpreter]

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Have you ever given evidence before in your life in

18 a court?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: So more or less, you should know what the procedure

21 is. You're going first to be asked a series of questions by Mr. Di Fazio

22 for the Prosecution. He will then be followed by Madam Vidovic for

23 Naser Oric, and then we see whether we have any further questions for you.

24 We hope to finish with your testimony today, which would then enable you

25 to go back home for the weekend.

Page 1452

1 May I remind you only of one obligation that you have as a result

2 of the solemn declaration that you have made a few minutes ago, namely

3 that the undertaking to speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but

4 the truth applies not only when you are being asked questions by the

5 Prosecution who have brought you here but also when you are being asked

6 questions by the Defence. You have no right to say to the Prosecution,

7 "I will answer one way," to the Defence, "I will answer another way

8 because I don't like it." You cannot distinguish or discriminate between

9 the Prosecution and the Defence.

10 Have I made myself clear?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. You have.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: [Previous translation continues] ...

13 MR. DI FAZIO: Just before I start, can I alert the technical

14 booth that although I will go into private session for the reasons earlier

15 discussed, there's going to be one reason -- one very short -- I'm going

16 to apply to go into private session very shortly for a very brief period

17 of time just on his personal antecedents.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead. I don't take it we are going into private

19 session now.

20 MR. DI FAZIO: No. Very shortly. I'm going to get to it very

21 shortly.

22 Examined by Mr. Di Fazio:

23 Q. You were born in 1956 in Ratkovici, weren't you?

24 JUDGE AGIUS: You need to answer. If -- have you heard -- have

25 you heard the question of Mr. Di Fazio?

Page 1453

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

2 MR. DI FAZIO:

3 Q. So is the answer -- just tell us -- just tell us?

4 JUDGE AGIUS: You need to answer the question.

5 MR. DI FAZIO: You were born in 1956 in Ratkovici.

6 A. Yes, I was.

7 Q. You're going to be there for some time, Mr. Stevanovic. Pull your

8 chair forward, settle down and answer my questions.

9 For most of that time you've lived in Bradjevina which is a small

10 hamlet near Ratkovici?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. I think you're a farmer. You raise sheep, cattle. You've got

13 pigs; is that correct? Or had -- this these farm animals?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. This was back -- this was back in 1992?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. All right. And in addition to raising farm animals, you also had

18 a small wood mill or wood-cutting service, and you also had a farm

19 implement that you hired out to other local farmers.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. You're married and you have a number of children. Can you tell us

22 how many children?

23 A. Seven.

24 Q. Right. Can we just very briefly go into private session?

25 MR. JONES: Your Honour.

Page 1454

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. You know of an eighth one, Mr. Jones?

2 MR. JONES: My apologies. Sorry, Your Honour?

3 JUDGE AGIUS: No. Go ahead.

4 MR. JONES: I'm not sure why we're going into private session.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't know why. We will soon tell us. Usually,

6 this shouldn't be controversial.

7 MR. JONES: I think my learned friend should make an application

8 to go into private session or explain what the -- or the reason for that

9 is rather than move into private session --

10 JUDGE AGIUS: I think he has already given us an indication.

11 MR. JONES: Well, if it's a matter of the antecedents of this

12 witness I don't see why that should be in private session.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't know we will see. If it's not the case of

14 being in private session we'll revert to open session and we'll go through

15 it again.

16 MR. DI FAZIO: I can deal with it very quickly. I think

17 Your Honours must have a copy of his statement.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, of course, we have a copy of his statement but

19 it arrived when we were already gone.

20 MR. DI FAZIO: Page 3, Your Honours. Page 3. Defence have a

21 copy, I hope. Page 3 of the English. Third paragraph. "I should now

22 mention that in 1985." That's the matter I wanted to raise with the

23 witness. I'm going to be very, very brief with it, a matter of two or

24 three questions, and then move on.

25 MR. JONES: Your Honour, I see no reason on earth why a witnesses

Page 1455

1 antecedents should be a matter dealt with in private session. These are

2 public trials, and antecedents goes to the witness's credibility.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go into private session.

4 [Private session]

5 (Redacted)

6 (Redacted)

7 (Redacted)

8 (Redacted)

9 (Redacted)

10 (Redacted)

11 (Redacted)

12 (Redacted)

13 (Redacted)

14 (Redacted)

15 (Redacted)

16 (Redacted)

17 (Redacted)

18 (Redacted)

19 (Redacted)

20 (Redacted)

21 (Redacted)

22 (Redacted)

23 (Redacted)

24 (Redacted)

25 [Open session]

Page 1456

1 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are in open session.

2 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Let's proceed, Mr. Di Fazio.

4 MR. DI FAZIO: All right.

5 Q. Now, the area in which you live is fairly hilly country with

6 farmland; is that correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. I want to show you a hand-written drawing, please. If that can be

9 brought up on -- on the Sanction device.

10 MR. DI FAZIO: Your Honours have the picture in front of you?

11 Good. Thank you.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Yes, Mr. Di Fazio.

13 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

14 Q. First things first. Did I --

15 JUDGE AGIUS: One -- one moment.

16 MR. DI FAZIO: Sorry.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: One would --

18 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Take the picture away from the witness, please.

20 Who drew this picture?

21 MR. DI FAZIO: I was about to elicit that evidence if Your Honours

22 please. I did, and the witness marked in the numbers.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: So when you showed it to him in the first place, it

24 was not marked?

25 MR. DI FAZIO: I -- I --

Page 1457

1 JUDGE AGIUS: You --

2 MR. DI FAZIO: I created this during the course of proofing.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: But what I say is when you were proofing the

4 witness, you didn't actually show him this, what this -- this piece of

5 paper? You showed him something similar to this piece of paper with, I

6 understand, the numbers missing or what?

7 MR. DI FAZIO: No. I -- I spoke to him, got his -- what was his

8 explanation of the local topography or geography, and then following his

9 instructions I drew this map and then I asked him to write in the numbers

10 representing the various hamlets. It's not claimed to be done to scale.

11 It's not --

12 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no, no. What I mean to say, in other words,

13 the -- the numbers -- were the numbers inserted by him or by you.

14 MR. DI FAZIO: This witness wrote in the numbers.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Let's -- let's proceed. Give it back to

16 him. Yes, please. Thank you. And he will confirm all this to us.

17 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

18 Q. Now, Mr. Stevanovic, you've just heard the exchange between myself

19 and the Court, the Trial Chamber. Did I, in fact, create -- write this

20 map with the exception of the numbers that you can actually see on the

21 little map itself?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Did we do that together?

24 A. Yes, we did.

25 Q. And it's -- you agree that it's not drawn to scale or representing

Page 1458

1 a correct cartographical exercise?

2 A. I agree.

3 Q. Okay now, I just want you to comment on the broad features near

4 the area where you live. Near your area there's a main road and you can

5 see it on the little map. Is that the main road that goes up to Bratunac

6 and then south to Fakovici?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Leading -- and does that road for much of its course hug the

9 Drina River, stick close to the Drina River?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Thank you. Leading off from the main road you can see there two

12 small dirt roads. Are -- in your area do those dirt roads exist?

13 A. Yes, they do.

14 Q. Now, in between the two small dirt roads that you can see depicted

15 there, is there a small cluster of hills?

16 A. Yes, there is.

17 Q. And are some of the villages close to your hamlet located on the

18 side of those hills and down around the small dirt road?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. You see there a -- a small dirt road on the left-hand side of

21 the -- of the map leading down to number 1, which is represented by

22 Ratkovici. Is there such a dirt road?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Thank you. You also see numbers 11, 10, and 9. Are they -- do

25 they represent the approximate, very approximate, I should say, very

Page 1459

1 approximate locations of villages of Poznanovici, Dedici, and Potkorjen?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. In 1992, were they inhabited by people of Muslim ethnicity?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Thank you. The remaining numbers, 2, 8, 7, 6, 5, 3, and 4, and 1,

6 do they correspond to the Serbian villages of Ratkovici, Gornji Ratkovici,

7 Dvorista, Ducici, Magudovici, Bradjevina, Kaludra, and Polimci?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Thank you. And you see the small dirt road that is furthest north

10 towards the top of the drawing, the small dirt road leading off the main

11 road. Along that small dirt road is there a small stream or creek that

12 follows it and heads out towards the Drina River?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Thank you. And you can see a very faint dotted line along which

15 the small dirt road leading to Ratkovici goes. Is that -- is there a

16 spine or a crest of hills, the top of the hills, that runs along between

17 the -- the small dirt -- the two small dirt roads with the Muslim villages

18 down on the southern slope and the Serbian villages on the northern slope?

19 A. Yes.

20 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, I seek to tender into

21 evidence that small map. Well, I won't grace it with the word map.

22 Representation of the local area.

23 MR. JONES: Your Honours, with that that provides -- obviously

24 it's not just that that drawing isn't to scale, it's actively misleading.

25 I don't mean that in a deliberately misleading sense but when one

Page 1460

1 considers the distances there are several kilometres between various of

2 these villages and hamlets and when one sees the Drina and the main road

3 and the size of those representations, one might get the impression that

4 some of these villages are right next door to each other. Provided it's

5 understood that this -- this drawing bears no resemblance to reality,

6 then, fine, it may go in.

7 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, I agree with that. I'm not -- I hope I've

8 made abundantly clear it's not to scale and it's basically to represent

9 there are two roads, there's clusters of villages up on one side of the

10 hill, down on the other. And to give you an idea before you start to look

11 at the map that I'm about to produce. That's why I wanted to provide it.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. And the Chamber thank you both, Mr. Jones and

13 Mr. Di Fazio for clarifying what we had almost taken for -- not almost,

14 but we certainly had taken for granted. But anyway, this will be P --

15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, P401.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: So this is being admitted as Prosecution Exhibit

17 P401.

18 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

20 MR. DI FAZIO:

21 Q. All right. Now I would like to show you a map, and I'd like it

22 placed on the ELMO because I'm going to ask you to mark it, which I hope

23 is a little more elegant than my drawing.

24 MR. DI FAZIO: Could the witness be shown this particular

25 document. You can also get it up on Sanction -- I'm sorry, just the ELMO.

Page 1461

1 Excuse me, Ms. Usher, can I have a look, please? Thank you.

2 Q. And I'm also going to supply to you, Mr. Stevanovic, two marking

3 pens, one in pink and one in blue.

4 All right. Okay. Now, I just want you to highlight with the pink

5 pen. If you can draw on this map with the pink pen. I want you to

6 highlight some of the little towns and villages that you might mention so

7 the Trial Chamber can see where they are.

8 First of all, can you see a place called Vranesevici, and can you

9 highlight that in pink? Just put -- write in pink, right through the

10 name of the little village, right across the name. You wouldn't obscure

11 the lettering.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Highlight it, in other words.

13 MR. DI FAZIO:

14 Q. Highlight it. Drag the pink across the name Vranesevici.

15 A. [Marks]

16 Q. That's it. Now that's what I want you to do with the rest of it.

17 Now, show the Trial Chamber where a place called Magudovici is?

18 A. [Marks]

19 Q. Now show us where a small village called Kaludra is.

20 A. [Marks]

21 Q. Thank you. And now a place called Polimci.

22 A. [Marks]

23 Q. And just although it's already indicated, mark Ducici and

24 Dvorista.

25 A. [Marks]

Page 1462

1 Q. Okay. Now look over on the right-hand side of the -- of the -- of

2 the map. Right-hand side. Right over on the right-hand side and down to

3 the bottom third of the -- of the map and we start to see --

4 MR. DI FAZIO: A bit further, Ms. Usher, if we can. More to the

5 right. No, the other way.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: The other way. The right.

7 MR. DI FAZIO: The other way. More. That's it. Thanks.

8 Q. Now, on the right-hand side down towards the bottom you see three

9 letters, FAK. Do you see those letters there, Mr. Stevanovic? Do you see

10 them? Well, let me ask you this, where would Fakovici be approximately?

11 A. Right here underneath.

12 Q. Okay. All right. We'll deal with that later.

13 Now, on -- is there a creek or a small stream that runs, as you've

14 mentioned already, from the area around Ducici down towards the

15 Drina River?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Now using the blue can you mark that stream that runs along from

18 Ducici and past Dvorista down to the main road and to the Drina. You can

19 just see it in blue. I'm hoping the blue marker will make it a bit

20 clearer.

21 A. [Marks]

22 Q. Thank you. And finally pick up the pink pen again and mark on

23 that map the approximate location of your hamlet Bradjevina.

24 A. [Marks]

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. That I would like you to put in the form of a

Page 1463

1 cross and put your initials next to it, please. Put B, B, with -- to

2 indicate. And then put a dash and your initials, please.

3 A. [Marks]

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.

5 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Di Fazio.

7 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, I seek to tender that into

8 evidence.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, and there will be Exhibit P402. So this is

10 being admitted as Prosecution Exhibit P402. Thank you, Mr. Di Fazio.

11 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

12 Q. And if I may show you one more map. This time I won't ask you to

13 mark anything.

14 Again, if it could be very briefly put on the ELMO.

15 Now, I think on this map you can see Fakovici, can't you? Can you

16 perhaps mark it? I will ask you to mark it. Just mark the area where

17 Fakovici is, again, in pink texter.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, this -- this is always why the -- why I am

19 against having them pre-marked, because you will see he marks Fakovici

20 where it is written, not where it is.

21 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. I appreciate that. Perhaps we'll leave

22 Fakovici.

23 Q. Just show us where Polimci is marked. And Kaludra. And I think

24 over on the left-hand side you can see Ducici?

25 A. [Marks]

Page 1464

1 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, I seek to tender that map

2 into evidence.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: And that will be P403. Thank you.

4 MR. DI FAZIO:

5 Q. In early -- early 1992, about how many households were in the

6 hamlet of Bradjevina? About how many people?

7 A. Twelve households and about 45 inhabitants.

8 Q. All of them farmers with their own cows and sheep and pigs and so

9 on?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Now, I want you to very briefly, and I emphasise the word

12 "briefly," describe to Their Honours various episodes that took place in

13 early 1992 in your area. In early 1992, were you made aware of some

14 episode involving a bus, a bus not being allowed into a terminal because

15 of the people it was carrying?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Now, again very briefly, in the space of a few sentences, just

18 tell Their Honours what that was about, as far as you're aware.

19 A. I can't remember the exact date, but it was in Bratunac, and

20 rockets, missiles, were being transported on the bus. When I got there,

21 when I wanted to get on the bus, barricades had been put up and they

22 wouldn't allow the bus into the terminal, so they sent it right back.

23 Q. I see. Who -- were there any members of any ethnicity on --

24 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction. The name of the bus

25 was actually Raketa or rocket.

Page 1465

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13 English transcripts.

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Page 1466

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Zicko, a man named Zicko from

2 Zapolje and another one from Zanjevo.

3 MR. DI FAZIO:

4 Q. Were there weapons on this bus or not, as far as you're aware?

5 A. No. It's a bus commuting between Belgrade and Bratunac.

6 Q. Okay. Now, it was -- barricades were put up and the bus wasn't

7 allowed into the terminal. Were there members of any one particular

8 ethnic group on the bus?

9 A. How am I supposed to know? There were all sorts of people on that

10 bus, whoever the passengers happened to be.

11 Q. Okay. Anyway, did that incident become well known in your local

12 area?

13 A. I was on the bus on that day too.

14 Q. Yes. Did the fact of the bus being not permitted into the

15 terminal become well known in your local area? Was it --

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. All right. Thank you. When is the Orthodox Easter? When was the

18 Orthodox Easter in 1992? Can you recall? Just approximate. The month

19 will do.

20 A. I believe it was in early April, but I can't remember the exact

21 date.

22 Q. Fine. Fine. Did you in early April go to a Muslim village called

23 Mocevici?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Were you going there in order to purchase walnut trees?

Page 1467

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. There did you see barricades erected?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And were these barricades over roads leading into and out of the

5 ridge?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Were you worried about what you saw at Mocevici, the erection of

8 barricades? Did that cause you any concerns?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Thank you. I want you to turn your mind to May the 6th, 1992. On

11 that occasion were -- were you aware of any persons being killed or

12 assassinated?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Very briefly, what happened?

15 A. I heard that they had been killed at Jadar, but I didn't see that.

16 I was in Ratkovici. But we heard that some people had been killed at

17 Jadar.

18 Q. What ethnicity were the people who were killed?

19 A. Serbs.

20 Q. Your children were living with you at that time, weren't they?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. As a result of this particular killing in -- in May, did you do

23 anything in respect of your children?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. What did you do?

Page 1468

1 A. I took my children to Vranesevici village to stay with my

2 relative, Milisav Ignjatovic.

3 Q. And is that because you thought they'd be safer there?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. In your view and from -- not in your view, but can you tell the

6 Chamber if your perception was in early 1992 that matters were worsening

7 in Bosnia and that ethnic relations were deteriorating?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. In May of 1992, was a man named Milisav Milanovic also

10 assassinated?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. In your view, did that contribute to the worsening climate that

13 you've spoken of?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. In early June of 1992, was there an attack by Muslim forces on a

16 village called Oparci?

17 A. Oparci, yes.

18 Q. Oparci, sorry?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And again did that influence this worsening climate that you've

21 described?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Thank you for telling us of that. I wanted to ask you about any

24 system of guarding Bradjevina. Was there ever a system of guarding

25 Bradjevina mounted by the men of -- of the small hamlet of Bradjevina?

Page 1469

1 Did it ever come into being?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. About when was that done, approximately?

4 A. Well, as soon as incidents began occurring in February or March.

5 A little at first, and then increasingly more and more guards as incidents

6 kept happening throughout the villages. You heard that someone had been

7 killed in one village and someone was set alight in a different village.

8 We only came on the 27th, and many villages had been set alight by that

9 time.

10 Q. Okay. So what was formed and how did it operate? And I'm now

11 talking about Bradjevina, your little town, your hamlet. I'm only talking

12 about Bradjevina.

13 A. Each of the villages had its own village guard and for individual

14 houses too. We didn't have any special units to do that. Everyone

15 guarded their own house and their own property. The women had gone, and

16 only the men were left. We were only 12 in our village, so that's all we

17 could afford in terms of providing village guard.

18 Q. When did the women leave Bradjevina?

19 A. On the 21st, when Ratkovici fell, and all the other villages and

20 hamlets in Ratkovici local commune.

21 Q. And up until that time had the women been living in the hamlets

22 and villages around Ratkovici, including Bradjevina?

23 A. Until the 21st, yes.

24 Q. Now, in Bradjevina, how many men would stand guard?

25 A. We were only 12 there. All the rest had crossed into Serbia. The

Page 1470

1 young people and the elderly. Only 12 of us remained who were sort of the

2 right age. We looked after the livestock, the farm animals, and we stood

3 guard.

4 Q. As far as you're aware, was there a similar system of guards as

5 you had in Bradjevina in places, the surrounding hamlets like Ratkovici,

6 Gornji Ratkovici, Dvorista, Ducici, Polimci, Kaludra, Vranesevici, those

7 places? Was there a similar system of local occupants of the villages and

8 hamlets setting up guard systems as you had in Bradjevina?

9 A. Yes. Certainly they had guards too.

10 Q. Okay. Now, again return your attention to Bradjevina and your

11 guard system in your hamlet. Were you armed?

12 A. We did have some weapons, yes.

13 Q. What sort of weaponry did you have?

14 A. There were all sorts of weapons, machine-guns, rifles, PAP rifles,

15 that kind of thing.

16 Q. All right. Well, I just want you to convey the correct picture to

17 the Trial Chamber. You said there are about 12 men. Did each of them

18 have more than one weapon or only one weapon?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. No. I gave you two choices. Did each of them have more than one

21 weapon or did each month have only one weapon?

22 A. You know what it was like. We had to buy weapons in 1992, and

23 whoever could afford one had one, had a good one, and whoever couldn't

24 afford a good weapon had a poor weapon.

25 Q. What about in Bradjevina? What did the men have there, what sort

Page 1471

1 of weaponry? Bradjevina I'm talking about, not the other places.

2 Bradjevina.

3 A. Individually, I can't enumerate. I know what I had at the time.

4 I can't tell you what the others had --

5 Q. All right.

6 A. -- specifically.

7 Q. What did you have?

8 A. I had a 48-millimetre rifle.

9 Q. All right. Is that an automatic weapon?

10 A. No.

11 Q. All right. Did other men from Bradjevina own Schmeisser

12 sub-machine-guns?

13 A. I think Milenko Stevanovic had a machine-gun.

14 Q. Where did you --

15 A. There were semi-automatic rifles, too.

16 Q. Okay. Thank you. Where did you personally get your weapon?

17 A. A man brought it over for me from Fakovici.

18 Q. Was there a local branch of the SDS party operating in the area?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Do you know a gentleman named Slavko Jovanovic?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Was he in the SDS?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Did he ever play, as far as you're aware, any role in the

25 distribution of weapons in your area?

Page 1472

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Tell the Trial Chamber what he did, as far as you're aware, to

3 bring about this distribution of weapons.

4 A. To the best of my knowledge, since we were at a distance from

5 Fakovici, about ten kilometres, between five and ten, we stood guard in

6 the village and we just looked after our livestock there. We hardly ever

7 went to Fakovici, but I heard from people that weapons were being bought

8 and sold in his cafe. That was the extent of my knowledge. I also heard

9 that he was president of the SDS for the Fakovici area at the time.

10 Q. So let's be clear about what you heard. You heard that you could

11 go to Slavko Jovanovic's cafe and there you could buy a weapon. Is that

12 what you heard? What I want to know is whether you heard you could go

13 there and buy a weapon --

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Did you ever hear that you could go there and just get a weapon,

16 just get one given to you for nothing?

17 A. No, not at the beginning. You had to buy one.

18 Q. Okay. Did you get your weapon, the actual gun that you held in

19 your hands in Bradjevina, from anyone associated with the SDS or through

20 that assistance of the SDS?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. How did that come about?

23 A. Well, Nikola Stanojevic came to see me and he had come over from

24 Fakovici, and he asked me -- I asked him whether I could have one and he

25 promised it and he brought it to me eventually. I paid one million dinars

Page 1473

1 for that rifle at the time.

2 Q. Now, did Stanojevic come over to your place on this occasion to

3 discuss the issue of weaponry or did he come to your place on this

4 occasion for some other reason?

5 A. He came, and he was looking for -- for a flashlight because it was

6 night and he had been late.

7 Q. Right. And did you -- talk turn to the issue of weaponry?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And what did he say to you about the availability of weapons?

10 What did he tell you you could do to get a gun?

11 A. He said that since I was not friends with Slavko, I had returned

12 from prison in 1990, I was not a member of the SDS, and I was not in

13 friendly relations with anyone from Fakovici. I was in the hills, so I

14 asked him whether he could get one for me because they were friends at the

15 time, and he brought one over for me then. I gave him a million dinars in

16 return.

17 Q. Incidentally, were you ever a member of the SDS?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Thank you. You've told us about the organisation of village

20 guards in the -- your village and the surrounding hamlets. Can I ask you

21 this: Did you dig any trenches in and around Bradjevina?

22 A. Yes, yes, we did, small trenches. Well, we had to take shelter

23 somehow.

24 Q. Yes. That's okay. I just want to know what you did. How many

25 trenches did you dig around Bradjevina?

Page 1474

1 A. Three.

2 Q. Local villagers dug them?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Okay.

5 A. I didn't precisely go there, but they must have been the ones.

6 Q. Thank you. And did you ever see similar trenches in the other

7 hamlets and villages in your area, the ones I've just mentioned to you,

8 Ducici, Dvorista, et cetera?

9 A. I didn't go to those villages at the time.

10 Q. In Bradjevina did the men organise themselves into shifts so that

11 at night some would go out and some would rest? Did you have shifts

12 organised?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Good. Okay. And while we're on protective measures, I want to

15 ask you this: In the period of time leading up to the 21st of June, did

16 people who lived in Ducici and Dvorista, Ducici and Dvorista, go anywhere

17 at night?

18 A. Not through Bradjevina. I heard that they were going to Ratkovici

19 and the guys from Ducici they couldn't back in their own village because

20 there were very few of them. Ducici had two or three men in each of the

21 gardens but there were several men over there as far as I heard. They

22 would go to Ratkovici in the evening and go back in the morning to attend

23 to their livestock.

24 Q. So the occupants of those two hamlets, most of them, at night

25 would go down to Ratkovici for safety and then go back and work their

Page 1475

1 fields during the day; is that correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. All right. Now, I want you to think of the period from early

4 1992, very early 1992, up until the 21st of June, 1992, that period of

5 time, the first six months or so. In that time, did your Bradjevina

6 village guard ever have any contact with the VRS or the JNA? And by that

7 I mean did you receive any training, equipment, advisors? Were any

8 systems set up for you to contact the VRS in order to assist them in any

9 way? Any form of contact of any nature whatsoever between the VRS, the

10 JNA, and your village guard?

11 A. As for contacts between the army and ourselves, there were none.

12 As far as I know, in Ruljevici, in the school building there had been a

13 meeting back at the beginning. I'm not sure about the specific time,

14 February or March. Which month I don't know much that's when they went to

15 Ruljevici, to the school, not all of them, some of them had remained in

16 the village and there was a meeting of some sort over there but I don't

17 know what sort of meeting exactly.

18 Q. Do you know who went to this meeting?

19 A. Well, everyone from all the hamlets. Some people went and some

20 people remained back in the villages.

21 Q. And how far is this village of Ruljevici from --

22 A. From Bradjevina, you mean?

23 Q. Yes, yes.

24 A. Well, up to two or three kilometres, not more.

25 Q. All right. Well, let me ask you this: Following this meeting

Page 1476

1 that you became aware of, were you -- did you see or observe anywhere in

2 your area, anywhere at all, any form of contact between villagers in the

3 village guard and the VRS or the JNA?

4 A. No.

5 Q. And if I may just finish on this note: Your village guard and all

6 the other village guards in the area, I want to know what equipment did

7 they have. Were they equipped with binoculars, radios, helmets, uniforms,

8 any of the usual paraphernalia of soldiers apart from their personal

9 weaponry?

10 A. No, we didn't have anything like that, only what we wore, our own

11 civilian clothes.

12 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, it's almost 10.30. That's

13 a natural break in my examination.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Thank you, Mr. Di Fazio. We will have a

15 25-minute break. How much longer do you think you'll require?

16 MR. DI FAZIO: I'm happy to say I'm going faster than I thought.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: That's why I'm asking you because I have gone

18 through the main statement and I think you have gone quite far already.

19 So I'm trying to -- to help myself and the other two Judges and the

20 Defence --

21 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, I would say, just weighing up my notes, it's

22 going to take me probably about another hour, hour and a quarter or so.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: And what about you, Madam Vidovic?

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I think I'll need about two hours at

25 least. That much is certain, Your Honour, and you will see for yourselves

Page 1477

1 why.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Basically if we start, say, at 11.00, we have an

3 hour and a half, then another three-quarters of another.

4 MR. DI FAZIO: I don't think -- I -- I respectfully don't think

5 we're going to finish today.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: This is an important witness. I mean, I -- anyway,

7 we'll discuss this after the break, but -- we'll talk about it.

8 --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.

9 --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: So, Mr. Di Fazio, you may proceed. Please try to

11 make an effort to cut down as much as you can so that we see if we can

12 hopefully finish with this witness today. If not, I am afraid, wishing

13 that the weather in The Hague will remain nice, you will have a nice

14 weekend over here if we don't finish with you today.

15 Mr. Di Fazio, let's not lose more time. Go ahead.

16 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. Thank you, Your Honour.

17 Q. I want you to turn your attention to the 21st of June, 1992. On

18 that occasion were you in Bradjevina?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. At about 5.00 a.m. in the morning, or early in the morning, were

21 you carrying out the guard duties you spoke of?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Were you in a trench?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. At that time of the morning in that area, was there a fog?

Page 1478

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Could you see at all the surrounding hamlets or not? Did you have

3 the -- or was the fog too thick?

4 A. In the beginning, yes, but later it cleared up.

5 Q. Okay. Did anything happen that morning?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Well, let's not beat about the bush. Was the -- was there an

8 attack carried out on the villages and surrounding hamlets?

9 A. Not on my village, but the five hamlets, Donji Ratkovici, Ducici,

10 Polimci, and Gornji Ratkovici, yes. These were five hamlets.

11 Q. From your position in the trench, what could you see as the attack

12 started?

13 A. At that moment, we couldn't see because there was fog. Later when

14 it lifted, we could see Gornji Ratkovici, Polimci, and Dvorista. We could

15 not see Donji Ratkovici and Ducici because they were behind the hill in

16 relation to my village and you could not see them.

17 Q. Fog or no fog, from your position you would never have been able

18 to see Ducici and Gornji Ratkovici?

19 A. No.

20 Q. But when the fog lifted you could see the other three that you

21 mentioned. How far away --

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. How far away from your position in the trench is the furthest of

24 those three hamlets, Polimci, Gornji Ratkovici, and Dvorista? Which one

25 is furthest and how far away from your position in the trench?

Page 1479

1 A. Gornji Ratkovici is the farthest away, and Polimci and Dvorista

2 are closer. As the crow flies, it's shorter. If you were to measure it

3 by going down, going into the river and then going up it's longer, but as

4 the crow flies it's not more than three kilometres. But if you actually

5 take the road, then it's about five kilometres from one village to the

6 next.

7 Q. Could you make out and see figures of people at that distance in

8 those places, Polimci, Gornji Ratkovici, and Dvorista?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Did you see fires burning anywhere?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Where did you see fires?

13 A. We saw them in Gornji Ratkovici, Polimci, and Dvorista, but from

14 Gornji -- from Donji Ratkovici and Dvorista you could only see smoke. And

15 all the barns and the outbuildings that were in the fields, they were all

16 burning, all the way down to the river. This was on the other side of my

17 village.

18 Q. Now, you say -- I'll withdraw that. Did you see any soldiers that

19 day?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Where did you see soldiers?

22 A. From Polimci down by the fields when they were burning the stables

23 in the fields. And then when we were withdrawing from Gornji Ratkovici

24 and Dvorista towards Mocevic.

25 Q. And what could you see those soldiers doing in the fields?

Page 1480

1 A. I didn't see them doing anything in the fields, but I did see them

2 taking the cattle away.

3 Q. All right.

4 A. That's what they were doing.

5 Q. Okay. Were they in the fields and not in the three hamlets of

6 Polimci, Gornji Ratkovici, and Dvorista when the cattle were being taken

7 away? In other words, were they outside those hamlets in the field taking

8 away the cattle? Is that a correct picture?

9 A. It was morning, so the cattle was in the stables, and they were

10 being released. So that was the time that -- at 5.00 in the morning when

11 the cattle was being let out from the stables, but that wasn't the usual

12 time for them to already be in the fields. When the attack occurred, that

13 was the time when they were just being let out into the fields to graze.

14 Q. All right. Now, think about this: You've told the Chamber it was

15 foggy in the morning, okay, and you've told the Chamber you couldn't see

16 figures over in the villages and hamlets three kilometres away. How could

17 you see that cattle were being released from -- from barns and their pens?

18 Could -- that's my question.

19 A. When the fog lifted later, because at first we couldn't see. At

20 one point the fog lifted. After the firing and everything it had lifted.

21 That's when we were able to see. But in the beginning, we couldn't see

22 anything.

23 Q. All right. Now, just give us a bit more detail about what you

24 could see. Were people who were letting cattle out of the barns and pens

25 and so on, were they soldiers?

Page 1481

1 A. They were both soldiers and civilians.

2 Q. Did they herd and take away the cattle?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Can you recall in which direction?

5 A. From Dvorista they were going towards Mocevici and from

6 Gornji Ratkovici they were going up along the slope above Poznanovici.

7 Q. After the buildings were emptied of cattle, did anything happen to

8 the buildings?

9 A. They were all burned.

10 Q. Did you ever actually see how fire was set to the buildings?

11 A. In the villages, you mean? No.

12 Q. All right. And what about in the fields? Were there any

13 structures in the fields?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Okay.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. All right. Let me get this straight. From your position, you

18 could see over into the hamlets, and you could see fires occurring in the

19 hamlets, but you couldn't see how they started. Correct or not?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. However, in the fields you had a closer view. Could you there see

22 how fire started in the various structures in the fields?

23 A. No, because when you enter the barn or the stable, you cannot see

24 it. You can only see the smoke once it's alight. So you cannot see if

25 somebody goes inside to set it on fire. You can just see once it begins

Page 1482

1 to burn.

2 Q. Okay. Did you see soldiers and civilians going inside these

3 structures that you have just mentioned?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Did you see soldiers and civilians exit these structures that you

6 have just mentioned?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Following the exit, did you see the structures that you have just

9 mentioned ablaze?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Now, at the time of -- throughout the day -- throughout the day,

12 was there any artillery or heavy shelling coming from any direction or any

13 forces, Serb forces or Muslim forces, any bombs or bombing of the area, or

14 was it simply rifle and automatic weapon fire?

15 A. You could hear some shooting in those villages, but I don't know

16 where the shooting came from, but you could hear some shooting, yes.

17 Q. Okay. We've heard that, shooting. And by shooting do you mean

18 from small weapons, hand-held weaponry?

19 A. It sounded like bombs or some sort of dull sound. I don't know if

20 it was bombs or shells.

21 Q. All right.

22 A. I'm not really that knowledgeable about weapons.

23 Q. All right. Did you --

24 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't suppose it should be that difficult to

25 distinguish between just rifle shootings -- shooting and --

Page 1483

1 MR. DI FAZIO: I'll ask -- perhaps I'll --

2 JUDGE AGIUS: And shells and proper artillery.

3 MR. DI FAZIO:

4 Q. Did you see any explosions, any explosions? I'm not talking from

5 gunfire from small rifles, machine-guns held by men, by soldiers. Did you

6 see any explosions? And I'm not talking about fire either. Explosions,

7 explosions that might be caused by bombs or heavy artillery?

8 A. You could hear something in Ratkovici, something of that. I don't

9 know if that was mortars or bombs or some other kind of weapon. I don't

10 know.

11 Q. In Ducici, Dvorista, Polimci, Kaludra, anywhere of those areas

12 could you see any explosions caused by bombs?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Thank you. On that particular day, were the hamlets of

15 Bradjevina, Kaludra, and Magudovici attacked or not?

16 A. No.

17 Q. All right. In addition to seeing cattle led away, did you see

18 anyone, any soldiers or civilians, and I'm now talking about the 21st,

19 okay being the 21st of June, did you see any civilians or soldiers

20 carrying away stuff, food, appliances, anything like that at all?

21 A. No, I did not, not there.

22 Q. Good. Thank you. Following -- just one last question while we're

23 on the 21st. Did you remain in your trench observing these events

24 throughout the day?

25 A. Yes.

Page 1484

1 Q. And what was the duration of the attack?

2 A. The attack was short, that attack on Ratkovici and those other

3 four hamlets.

4 Q. On the 27th of June, was the area attacked once again?

5 A. No, because there was nobody there any more in those villages.

6 They had burned down, and they were abandoned. Only Magudovici,

7 Bradjevina, and Kaludra were attacked. That was on the 27th.

8 Q. Okay. Right. Right. Now, in between the 21st and the 27th, did

9 you go down to Ducici and Dvorista and the other hamlets and see what

10 damage had occurred or not?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Well, tell the Trial Chamber on what basis you make the assertion

13 that those villages had been burned down and abandoned? I'm talking about

14 the villages attacked on the 21st of June. How do you know that? Why

15 would you say that to the Trial Judges?

16 A. Because you could see from my village that they had been burned

17 down, that there were no roofs on the buildings any more. All of them had

18 been burned down. You could see from my village the three hamlets where

19 everything had burned down. You could see everything had burned down.

20 There were no roofs left.

21 Q. What was the extent of the damage that you could see in each of

22 those three hamlets from your position in Bradjevina?

23 A. There was 100 per cent damage. Everything that people had was

24 damaged. All the buildings were burned. The damage was 100 per cent.

25 The cattle was driven away. Everything that the farmers had was destroyed

Page 1485

1 100 per cent.

2 Q. Thank you. Okay. Following this attack on the 21st of June, did

3 your wife go anywhere?

4 A. She went to Vranesevici to see the children off to Serbia.

5 Q. And did you do anything with your cattle?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. What did you do? What did you do?

8 A. First I took the cattle down to Grabovicka Rijeka, the part of the

9 cattle that I did not manage to save. And then on the 26th, on Friday I

10 returned to the village again, and then on the 27th there was the attack

11 so whatever was there of the cattle was driven away.

12 Q. Do I take it from your last answer that on the 21st some of our

13 own cattle were taken away during the course of the attack?

14 A. No, no. None of my cattle was taken away on the 21st.

15 Q. Well, you said that the part of the cattle that you managed to

16 save, you took them down to Grabovicka Rijeka. Were any of your cattle

17 stolen at all on the 21st? That's what I want to know.

18 A. No. This was stolen by the Serbs in Podrinje. Those of us from

19 Brdo who took the cattle down to Podrinje, that cattle was stolen. They

20 had started to take that cattle and slaughter it and they had taken it to

21 their land.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Who, because I feel a little bit after confusion in

23 the air here. Was the cattle stolen by the Serbs?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's how it was. When we took the

25 cattle to Grabovicka Rijeka, to Vranesevici, they started to steal this

Page 1486

1 cattle away. Then on the 26th we returned again to our property because we

2 were thinking that we would not be attacked. So then on the 27th when the

3 attack occurred, all that had been saved from the people down there was

4 then driven away by these others, by the Muslim army.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. That's -- that's clear now.

6 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Judge Eser has got a question.

8 JUDGE ESER: Mr. Stevanovic, how was it? Were the cattle already

9 stolen while it was still in Bradjevina or was it stolen after you had let

10 it down to what was called Grabovicka Rijeka, after the 21st of June.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the 27th of June, we took it to

12 Grabovicka Rijeka, the cattle. And then from the 21st to the 26th, the

13 local people there, Serbs, stole the cattle. They stole from everybody,

14 more from some, less from others. Those people who were -- some people

15 had all of their cattle slaughtered. For example, Ljubisa Popovic, all of

16 his sleep were slaughtered.

17 JUDGE ESER: To make it quite clear, your cattle was not stolen

18 while still in Bradjevina but it was stolen in the time when it was down

19 to Grabovicka. Is that true?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Not all of the cattle was

21 stolen. A part was stolen in Grabovicka Rijeka, and then the rest when it

22 came back, when I brought it back was then stolen, because I had over a

23 hundred head of cattle, and then I returned -- when it came back there was

24 about 36 or something, not more than that.

25 JUDGE ESER: Okay. Thank you.

Page 1487

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Judge Brydensholt.

3 JUDGE BRYDENSHOLT: Did I understand you rightly that the first

4 part of your cattle which were stolen were stolen by Serbs who had lost

5 their own sheeps and so on?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They did not lose their cattle

7 because they were not attacked then. They had their own cattle, but they

8 were also stealing our cattle, the ones we had driven down from Brdo.

9 Those locals who were stealing from us, they were not attacked but they

10 were stealing the cattle that we had driven down there, that we were

11 keeping on their land, because they were taking these cattle and keeping

12 it on their property. They were taking it to their own stables.

13 JUDGE BRYDENSHOLT: And those who did that were Serbs; is that

14 right, rightly understood?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

16 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

17 Q. Just following on from Their Honours' questioning on those topics,

18 cattle were certainly led away by the attackers on the 21st of June, but

19 not your cattle. Other Serb -- other cattle belonging to Serb villagers

20 were led away. Is that the situation?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. So then you moved your cattle down to Rijeka for safekeeping, but

23 unfortunately it didn't work out that way because the Serbs down there

24 stole your cattle; correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 1488

1 Q. So faced with that situation, you decided to move your cattle back

2 to Bradjevina, and you did that on about the 26th. Is that so?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Thank you.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: It's very clear now.

6 MR. DI FAZIO:

7 Q. All right. Fine. Now, let's turn to the 27th. On that day, your

8 wife was not in Bradjevina, I believe.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And you've already said there was an attack. About what time did

11 the attack start on that day?

12 A. At 12.00, noon.

13 Q. Where were you when the attack started?

14 A. I was about 200 metres above my house, in the field. That's also

15 where the trench was.

16 Q. Were you at the trench?

17 A. I was near the trench. When the shooting started, I jumped into

18 the trench. When I could see how many people were coming, then I pulled

19 back from the trench.

20 Q. Okay. Now, just prior to the attack starting -- I'll withdraw

21 that. Do you know a man named Stojan Stevanovic?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. He's your cousin, isn't he?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Is he a shepherd? Or was he a shepherd, I should say.

Page 1489

1 A. On that day, yes.

2 Q. Was he tending sheep or animals on that day?

3 A. He was looking after the sheep and the goats that day.

4 Q. Prior to the attack, did he leave the area and go somewhere?

5 A. He took the sheep and put them in the barn, and then he came home.

6 Q. He went to his house, did he?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Was he armed on the 27th [Realtime transcript read in error "17th]

9 of June?

10 A. He did have a rifle, but I don't know where they found him. I

11 don't know if he was at home asleep. I don't know where they caught him.

12 Q. All right. Now, let's turn to the -- your position --

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Judge Brydensholt is drawing my attention to

14 transcript 49, line 5, 17th of June, should be 27th of June; correct?

15 MR. DI FAZIO: That is so, Your Honour.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, the 27th.

17 MR. DI FAZIO:

18 Q. Right. Your position, you said you were in your trench or near

19 your trench or the trench in Bradjevina, and that was located above the

20 hamlet of Bradjevina?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. What did you first notice was happening when the attack initially

23 started? What could you see and hear?

24 A. Shooting started below the village, and then some hay started to

25 burn and some sheds, everything that was below the village. The shooting

Page 1490

1 first started below the village.

2 Q. And were they haystacks and sheds associated or owned by the

3 people who lived in the hamlet of Bradjevina?

4 A. I didn't understand the question.

5 Q. You said you first noticed shooting and you first noticed some hay

6 starting to burn and some sheds burning. Were those haystacks or hay and

7 the sheds belonging to inhabitants of Bradjevina, associated with --

8 A. Yes. Yes.

9 Q. What was your reaction when you saw the attack underway?

10 A. I went into the trench, but then when I saw that the attack had

11 started from above and that a lot of people were coming, I had to pull

12 back into the village. The village was already burning. Then I had to

13 stop in a field below the house where I hid in some bushes, and I stayed

14 there until the end of the attack.

15 Q. All right. Was that field uncultivated land?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And it was still above the little hamlet of Bradjevina?

18 A. Above.

19 Q. From your position, did you have a view across the hamlet of

20 Bradjevina?

21 A. Yes, except for two houses. One was at the end of the village,

22 and one was to the east.

23 Q. All right.

24 A. Those two could not be seen from that position.

25 Q. Now, you said that houses were burning. How many houses, would

Page 1491

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Page 1492

1 you say, were burning?

2 A. As soon as they were looted, they all started to burn, because a

3 lot of soldiers entered the village. So they were entering the houses,

4 and then as they were leaving the houses, they burnt them. The only

5 buildings that were left were the storage areas where there was some grain

6 or some kind of food. That was the only thing that was not set on fire.

7 Q. Okay. Firstly the soldiers, were they uniformed?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Presumably armed with guns, rifles, and automatic guns?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. From your position in the uncultivated area of land, could you see

12 the faces of the soldiers from time to time?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. I don't want to have their names. We don't need to go into that.

15 But did you recognise any of the soldiers?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Were they of Muslim ethnicity?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Were some of them men that you recognised from before the war,

20 from surrounding Muslim villages, from the area, local men?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Now, the civilians, you say that civilians accompanied the

23 soldiers?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Were they just men or men and women or ...

Page 1493

1 A. They were women and men.

2 Q. Thank you. You've described fires. I want you to tell the

3 Trial Chamber what you saw from your hidden position as to how -- what

4 preceded the building being set alight or becoming ablaze. Tell the

5 Trial Chamber what happened.

6 A. The first thing we noticed, because we had stood guard above the

7 village, behind, we were hoping that there were three trenches behind the

8 villages, the side facing Mocevici. We thought an attack would be coming

9 from the woods, but the attack came from the river. They came down the

10 river, and they blocked us from that direction. So that's where the

11 shooting started. And they entered the village before we knew it, and

12 whoever was caught in the village was captured. Those of us who were in

13 the trench behind the village could escape down the flanks.

14 So the first thing was the attack began below the village and not

15 from above the village. That's where we expected it to come from, and

16 that's where we were standing guard.

17 Q. All right. Did you see -- tell the Trial Chamber how the

18 buildings got -- were set on fire. What did you see?

19 A. Soldiers were entering houses, and as they were leaving, house was

20 start to burn.

21 Q. Did you see civilians going into houses?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Did you see anything being taken from houses?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. What did you see being taken?

Page 1494

1 A. Mostly food. Some of the lighter things, appliances, TV. No one

2 took any TVs or freezers, the larger appliances. That was all torched

3 along with the houses.

4 Q. When you say lighter things, do you mean objects, household

5 possessions, but not food?

6 A. When I say lighter items, yes.

7 Q. Who took away these items? Who actually physically carried away

8 the lighter items and the food?

9 A. The soldiers that entered houses were taking things out, but of

10 course they had civilians who also helped them pick things up and carry

11 these items off.

12 Q. Thank you. Presumably they took items out of the house when -- or

13 dwellings and so on --

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Di Fazio, before he answers because here I think

15 we have a bit of a confusion.

16 Question is what did you -- I'm referring to line 22 of the

17 previous page. What did you see being taken? Answer: "Mostly food, some

18 of the lighter things, appliances, TV. No one took any TVs or freezer,

19 the larger appliances. That was all torched along with the houses." So

20 already here we have confusion as regards TVs, because they are mentioned

21 at one point that they have been taken, at another point that they

22 haven't. And then your question: "When you say lighter things you mean

23 objects, household possessions but not food." The answer was: "When I

24 say lighter items, yes," whatever that means.

25 And then your question: "Who took away these items? Who actually

Page 1495

1 physically carried away the lighter items and the food?" And so now first

2 you excluded the food, and now you include it yourself. And then he

3 answered: "The soldiers that entered houses were taking things out, but

4 of course they had civilians who also helped pick things up and carry

5 these items out."

6 So at this stage, I honestly don't know whether TVs were taken out

7 or not, whether they come into the -- amongst the lighter or the heavier

8 items and whether food was actually taken, because at one stage he said

9 food was taken, at another time you suggested that it wasn't and he seems

10 to have agreed with you. At the moment he seems to have agreed with you.

11 Then you suggested that it had been taken again. So I think we better

12 clarify that a little bit.

13 MR. DI FAZIO: I'll do that.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

15 MR. DI FAZIO:

16 Q. Firstly, was food taken?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Were light household possessions taken?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Did you see anyone taking TVs or fridges?

21 A. Well, look, in my house they -- they torched it, but they didn't

22 take it away. It's my house I'm talking about.

23 Q. Did you see anyone taking fridges or TVs from any house?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Was food taken from your house and other houses in Bradjevina?

Page 1496

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Was -- were light household possessions taken from your house and

3 other houses in Bradjevina?

4 A. They took a tape recorder from my house and torched the TV,

5 electrical heater, and -- and the freezer. And later they took the video

6 recorder away and the refrigerator.

7 Q. And that is from your house.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Okay. Now, did you see light household possessions, I don't mean

10 fridges, I don't mean TVs. I mean light household possessions being taken

11 from other houses apart from your own.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And was -- were cattle taken?

14 A. The cattle were driven away following the attack.

15 Q. Okay.

16 A. And they were retreating.

17 Q. Yes. Okay. Now, when you say cattle were driven away, I want a

18 bit more detail. Do you mean they were just driven off into the fields or

19 were they driven away and taken by the attackers or civilians?

20 A. They took it towards Mocevici from Bradjevina.

21 Q. It might seem obvious to you, I just want to be absolutely, 100

22 per cent clear. Did they appear to be leading the cattle away, taking the

23 cattle away? However you take cattle, not being experienced in that area

24 myself.

25 A. That's not how it appeared. It is simply a fact they drove our

Page 1497

1 cattle towards Mocevici, up in the hillside. That's the next village, the

2 village next to ours. That's not how it appeared to us. What I mean is

3 they did actually take it away.

4 Q. All right. Thank you. Now, what about sheep? Did -- were there

5 any sleep in Bradjevina?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Were they taken?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Were there any pigs being raised in the village, the hamlet of

10 Bradjevina?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. What was the fate of the pigs?

13 A. Later when I put Stojan on the cart, I saw that the pigs had been

14 killed, but I didn't see any pigs being driven away.

15 Q. How many pigs did you see had been slaughtered?

16 A. I saw three or four along the road in the village.

17 Q. Now I want you to return to a period of time in which you were

18 hiding in the piece of uncultivated land just above Bradjevina.

19 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, can we go into closed

20 session?

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go into closed session for a while, please.

22 [Private session]

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24 JUDGE AGIUS: We are back in open session.

25 MR. DI FAZIO:

Page 1502

1 Q. Can you give the Trial Chamber the names of any other persons who

2 were killed on the 27th apart from this man Stojan? And I'm not just

3 talking about Bradjevina. I'm talking about the area in Bradjevina and

4 immediately around Bradjevina?

5 A. Yes, I can.

6 Q. All right. Perhaps I can make this quicker. Do you know someone

7 called Ljubisa Gajic?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Several quick questions for you. Was he a man who was living in

10 the area and was he apparently killed on that day?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Did you later find his remains in 1993?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And were you led to his remains by a gentleman called Milutin?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Was there a gentleman named Novica Stanojevic living in the area?

17 A. We didn't find any remains of that person.

18 Q. Okay. The question is, was there a man called Novica Stanojevic

19 living in the area up until the 27th of June?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Was a body of Novica ever found or remains ever found or was he

22 ever seen again?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Slavko Petrovic, do you know him?

25 A. Yes.

Page 1503

1 Q. Did he disappear after the 27th of -- of June?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Do you know a man named Vlado Pavlovic?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Was he killed during the course of the attack?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Was his body found?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. About how long after the attack?

10 A. Seven or eight days later.

11 Q. Rade Jovanovic. Firstly, did you know that man?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Where was he from?

14 A. From Stanatovici.

15 Q. The day after the 27th, the 28th obviously, did you go back to

16 the -- to your village?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Did you see his body on that day, Rade Jovanovic, the body of

19 Rade Jovanovic on the 28th?

20 A. Yes. We picked him up and laid him down on the asphalt road at

21 Grabovicka Rijeka.

22 Q. All right. Okay. Good. Thank you. On that day, the 28th of

23 June, was Kaludra attacked as far as you're aware?

24 A. On the 27th, Kaludra was torched, and on the 28th, Vranesevici.

25 Q. Thank you for correcting me; that was my mistake. On the 27th

Page 1504

1 Kaludra was attacked?

2 A. The 27th, it was torched, yes.

3 Q. What about Magudovici, was that attacked?

4 A. Magudovici on the 27th also.

5 Q. From your position in the uncultivated field above Bradjevina,

6 could you see Kaludra and Magudovici?

7 A. Not Magudovici but Kaludra, yes.

8 Q. From your position during the course of the attack, what was

9 happening in Kaludra? What could you see?

10 A. In Kaludra, they were just torching things because the local

11 villagers had left the village, and they had driven their livestock away.

12 So they just torched the village with no one in it.

13 Q. Thank you. Let's return to Stojan and the period of time shortly

14 after the attack. What did you do with Stojan, the body of

15 Stojan Stevanovic?

16 JUDGE AGIUS: You can go -- you can lead the witness in this.

17 MR. DI FAZIO: All right.

18 Q. Did you put his body in a wheelbarrow and wheel them the four or

19 five kilometres down to the main road going to Bratunac?

20 A. Not as far as Bratunac. From the village of Bradjevina, I wheeled

21 him the five kilometres to the asphalt road at Grabovicka Rijeka, and

22 that's where his son Milovan put him into a car and drove him to Basta.

23 That's where he was buried. That's where a post-mortem was conducted.

24 Not to Bratunac. You couldn't drive as far as Bratunac at that point.

25 Q. Yes. And on your way as you're wheeling his body down in the

Page 1505

1 wheelbarrow, could you see Kaludra?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Could you see fires burning in the dwelling houses?

4 A. Yes.

5 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, and I apologise for this, I

6 omitted a matter, a very, very brief matter in relation to the --

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, go, go, go.

8 MR. DI FAZIO: Can we go into closed session?

9 JUDGE AGIUS: I see. Closed session or private session?

10 MR. DI FAZIO: Private session.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, okay.

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4 (Redacted)

5 (Redacted)

6 (Redacted)

7 [Open session]

8 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session, Mr. Di Fazio.

9 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

10 Q. The following day, you -- you returned to your area with -- with a

11 group of men, I think. The 28th of June?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. You were in company with a man called Slavko Jovanovic, I believe?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. The purpose of your group was to try to recover the body of

16 Vlado Pavlovic. Is that so?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Okay. And you were ambushed, and I think during the course of

19 that ambush Slavko was killed.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. What I'm interested in is during this trip back into your area of

22 Bradjevina, did you see Ratkovici at all? Did you come close to

23 Ratkovici?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Okay. We know what's happened to Bradjevina. Did you come close

Page 1507

1 to Kaludra or Ducici or Dvorista?

2 A. No.

3 Q. And what about Magudovici? Did you come close to Magudovici?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Thank you. I'll leave the topic now of the 27th and the 28th.

6 In the period of time after this attack did you stay in Fakovici?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. How long did you stay in Fakovici?

9 A. For about 20 days, thereabouts.

10 Q. And in that time -- let me withdraw that. In the -- in the period

11 of time that you stayed in Fakovici, did you see the arrival of someone

12 called -- a man with a beard called Chetnik in company with -- nicknamed

13 Chetnik, I should say, in company with a number of other men who you

14 understood came from Skelani?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Did this man nicknamed Chetnik, with the beard, appear to be in

17 charge of these men from Skelani?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. How men was he apparently in charge of?

20 A. I couldn't give you the exact number. There was a group of men

21 there but I couldn't give you a specific number.

22 Q. I know you can't; I'm not asking for a specific number. But try

23 and give us an approximation. We're talking about 2 or 3 men? Twenty?

24 A. Ten or 15 men. That much is certain.

25 Q. All right. Okay. Were they also in possession of a truck on

Page 1508

1 which was mounted some sort of anti-aircraft gun?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. At that time to get across to Serbia, what was the best way of

4 getting across to Serbia?

5 A. By boat. There was no other way to cross. There was a bridge at

6 Skelani, but that was the only other way.

7 Q. In the period of time that you remained in Fakovici after the 27th

8 of June attack, could you get out to Serbia through Skelani?

9 A. No.

10 Q. So that -- was there any other way apart from the river, crossing

11 the river?

12 A. No, no other way, only at Skelani.

13 Q. Was it possible to cross the river in the period of time that you

14 were in Fakovici? The Drina, I mean.

15 A. No, it wasn't, because all the boats had been pulled ashore, and

16 they forbade everyone from crossing the Drina.

17 Q. Who forbade people from crossing the Drina?

18 A. This group led by the man nicknamed Chetnik. They had pulled the

19 boats ashore, and they allowed no boats to cross there around Fakovici.

20 Q. Did the man Chetnik and his group eventually leave Fakovici, as

21 far as you know?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Were you then free to cross to Serbia?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And is that, in fact, what you did?

Page 1509

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Now, when Chetnik and his men left, what happened to the truck

3 with the anti-aircraft gun? Do you know? If you don't know, say so, but

4 if you know what its fate was, tell us.

5 A. I don't know exactly, but I know that on the 5th when the attack

6 by the Muslim forces took place on the 5th, I heard that the truck was in

7 Fakovici, next to the house of Dragan Nikolic. I heard that he had left

8 the truck parked just below the house. On the 5th when he came. On the

9 28th, when Chetnik came, the truck was brought there, but I don't know

10 when it was returned to Fakovici again.

11 Q. All right. Thank you. Thank you. Now, in between the attack on

12 the 27th of June and your 20-day stay in Fakovici, that period of time,

13 and the 5th of October, did you remain in Serbia?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. In October of 1992, did you go to Fakovici?

16 A. Yes, on the 6th. I crossed over to collect the bodies of those

17 killed, on the 6th of October.

18 Q. Is it -- is it the case that you were not in Fakovici itself on

19 the 5th when the attack occurred?

20 A. That is correct.

21 Q. But the next day, the 6th, you went in and collected bodies?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Why were you involved in that? Why did you get yourself involved

24 in -- in collecting bodies from Fakovici? Is there any particular reason?

25 A. In Serbia, on the other side of the Drina, there were many people

Page 1510

1 whose relatives had -- or friends had been killed. So I had crossed over

2 with them to help them to get their -- the bodies of those relatives and

3 friends who were killed.

4 Q. Is it -- what I want to know is was it a voluntary act that you

5 did or were you ordered by someone to do this?

6 A. I volunteered to do that.

7 Q. How many bodies did you locate in Fakovici?

8 A. We found eight corpses at the house of the Nikolics.

9 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone off for the Presiding Judge, please.

10 MR. DI FAZIO:

11 Q. On the day that you were collecting bodies, did you have a chance

12 to observe any damage in Fakovici?

13 A. Yes. Partly, not all of it.

14 Q. All right. Well, I'll get you to explain that in just a moment,

15 but firstly, you -- is it the case that you were well familiar with

16 Fakovici? You knew the place well from before the war?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Now, the damage that you observed on the 6th of October, you say

19 you saw -- you saw part of it. What I want to know is this: Was -- was

20 Fakovici only damaged in part or was it -- all of it damaged? And if you

21 don't know the answer, tell us.

22 A. It wasn't burned down entirely. There were some buildings that

23 had been left standing, intact.

24 Q. Okay. On the day that you were there collecting the bodies, did

25 you see any Serb soldiers? VRS, I mean.

Page 1511

1 A. Yes. They came in trucks from Skelani, and they loaded them up.

2 They didn't allow us to load them into boats and take them across the

3 river, but loaded them up into the trucks and took them across via Skelani

4 while we returned to Serbia by boat.

5 Q. Did you see any other Serb soldiers on that day doing anything

6 other than participating in the collection of bodies?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Thank you. I want to show you some photos on the -- on the

9 screen.

10 MR. DI FAZIO: Would Your Honours just bear with me for one

11 moment. I'm drawing to a close now.

12 Q. All right. Thank you, Ms. Usher. If -- perhaps there could

13 be -- you can have the benefit of both screen and the hard copy in front

14 of you, Mr. Stevanovic.

15 MR. DI FAZIO: And Your Honours have copies, I think.

16 Your Honours, it's going to be my intention to tender these photographs

17 hopefully after the witness has commented on them. Would you like me to

18 tender them as a bundle? I think that would probably --

19 JUDGE AGIUS: I think that would be preferable, Mr. Di Fazio.

20 That's what we have done --

21 MR. DI FAZIO: That's what I prefer.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: -- with the others.

23 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, thank you.

24 Q. Let's look at the first photograph that you can see there. It has

25 a number 01088083. Do you see that?

Page 1512

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. All right. Do you recognise that place?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Where -- where is it located?

5 A. In Fakovici.

6 Q. Now, it may not have looked exactly the same, but when you saw it

7 back then, when you walked into town, into the village on the 6th of

8 October, 1992, did it -- had it suffered -- that building suffered similar

9 damage, as far as you can remember?

10 A. Yes. It was already burning.

11 Q. All right. Thank you. Look at the next photograph, please. That

12 photograph has a number next to it, 01088084. Do you recognise that

13 structure?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Where is it?

16 A. In Fakovici, right next to this one, quite close to it.

17 Q. Do you happen to know whose house it is or whose place it was?

18 A. It's the house of Colonel Zarko Pajkic.

19 Q. And when you saw it back in 1992, had it suffered similar damage

20 as depicted in this photograph?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Right. Just look at the foreground. It's all overgrown. You see

23 all the plants and growth all the around the house. Do you see it?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. When you went into Fakovici on the 6th of October, presumably that

Page 1513

1 growth hadn't occurred, and apart from the damage to the house, it was a

2 properly maintained area.

3 A. No, not at the time.

4 Q. Let's be clear. When you went into the village on the 6th of

5 October, was there the growth and vegetation that you can see there?

6 A. No, it wasn't, because then it was regularly cut down and cleaned.

7 In front -- the area in front of house then was clear.

8 Q. Okay. Thank you. Can you look at the next photograph. That's

9 accompanied by a number, 01088085. Do you recognise that place?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Where is it?

12 A. In Fakovici also.

13 Q. Do you know what it is in Fakovici, whose place it is or what

14 building it is?

15 A. These are the apartments of the teachers from the school in

16 Fakovici.

17 Q. When you saw it on the 6th of October, 1992, did it have a roof as

18 you can see in that photograph, or you can't recall? If you can't recall,

19 that's fine, but if you can, let us know.

20 A. I do remember, because it was right next to the road. On the 6th,

21 it was without a roof. It had been burned. This photograph was taken

22 later, after the roof was repaired.

23 Q. Thank you. Look at the next photograph, please. That's

24 accompanied by a number, 01088086. You recognise that structure, that

25 building?

Page 1514

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Where is it?

3 A. In Fakovici.

4 Q. Was it damaged when you saw it on the 6th of October, 1992?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Any idea whose place that is?

7 A. This is the house of the Drago Zikic who was captured in

8 Srebrenica. He was a postman.

9 Q. Thank you. Look at the next photo. That's accompanied by the

10 number 01088087. Do you recognise that place?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Is that in Fakovici?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Whose place is it, if you know?

15 A. This was the house owned by the forestry company. This is where

16 the forest warden or the forest keeper lived.

17 Q. When you saw it on the 6th of October, 1992, had it suffered

18 similar damage?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. It's not apparent from this photograph in particular, but can you

21 say when you saw it on the 6th of October, 1992, that it appeared to have

22 suffered fire damage?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Thank you. Next photo, please. This photo here is accompanied by

25 the number 01088088. Do you recognise that structure and is it in

Page 1515

1 Fakovici?

2 A. Yes. This is the old school in Fakovici. It was burned down on

3 the 6th, but now it has been re-roofed.

4 Q. Okay. When you -- okay. So it didn't have a roof when you saw it

5 that day when you walked into the village?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Again. Had it appeared to have suffered fire damage?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Okay. And look at this next photograph numbered 01088089. Can

10 you help us with this -- this structure or not?

11 A. This was the weekend house of a person called Bozic who lived in

12 Tuzla.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: May I ask the witness how come he can recognise it

14 from -- from what he can see here in the photo? What's so distinctive

15 about it that makes you recognise it without the least doubt?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I went to school in Fakovici. See,

17 that's where I went to school, and I completed fifth grade in this school.

18 So I know Fakovici as well as I know my own village. I know the

19 inhabitants there, the houses, where people live, and I know all the

20 buildings along the road.

21 This building is right behind the school or right next to the

22 school.

23 MR. DI FAZIO: I'm glad that Your Honour clarified that.

24 Q. Next photo, please. That's accompanied by the number 01088098.

25 Sorry, let me repeat that. I've made a mistake. 090.

Page 1516

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Last three digits are 090.

2 MR. DI FAZIO: That's correct. Thank you, Your Honour.

3 Q. Whose place is that surrounded by the flowers there?

4 A. I cannot remember this house exactly. I cannot remember if it's

5 the house of the Markovics or someone else's. There was a house like this

6 behind the old school, right behind the old school, but I don't know

7 exactly what it is. I do know that it had burned down completely and

8 there were several houses around there that had burned down.

9 Q. Okay. Please feel free to express any uncertainty. Can you say

10 that -- even though you don't know whose house it is, can you say that it

11 was -- that it's in Fakovici?

12 A. I think that this house is situated in Fakovici.

13 Q. Thank you. Let's move on. This photograph that I show you, the

14 last one, 01088091, do you recognise this area at all? It appears to be a

15 wall.

16 A. This has been demolished completely, so it's very hard to tell.

17 Q. Right. Okay. Well, I won't ask you any further questions about

18 that.

19 A. I don't know.

20 Q. Thank you.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: So you're tendering this bundle of photos in

22 evidence?

23 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, I do, if Your Honours please.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: And they are being admitted in evidence together as

25 one document, and that will be Prosecution Exhibit P405. Thank you.

Page 1517

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6

7

8

9

10

11

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13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 1518

1 MR. DI FAZIO:

2 Q. Mr. Stevanovic, you said earlier that you lived in Bradjevina for

3 most of your life. Am I correct?

4 A. Yes. Right until the war I lived in Bradjevina.

5 Q. Following the attacks that you have described to the Court today,

6 were you ever able to go back to your farm and land?

7 A. I can go as a tourist to see it, but I could not live there.

8 Everything has been destroyed. There's no electricity. There's no road.

9 Everything has been grown over.

10 Q. Did any of your former neighbours who used to live with you in

11 Bradjevina ever go back and live there?

12 A. No. No one has returned out of the whole local community. The

13 whole local community is empty. Nobody has gone back to live there.

14 Q. The place is now overgrown with weeds and remain in that state?

15 A. Yes.

16 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. I have no further questions.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Di Fazio. Now, it's obvious that

18 we are not going to finish with the cross-examination today. I mean, I

19 take it you won't finish in 45 plus ten -- 55 minutes.

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour, I will not be able

21 to finish the cross-examination, and I would appreciate it very much if we

22 could make a break now, and then I could complete one topic today.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. The other things that arise out of -- out of

24 all this. It basically means that we are moving this witness to Monday,

25 which brings me to this: The next witness that we had for Monday, I don't

Page 1519

1 think he has any protective measures, but anyway, witness number 6 who was

2 scheduled to come here on the 1st of November to testify on exactly the

3 same events as this witness, you had indicated that you required three

4 hours for that witness. For this particular witness you had indicated two

5 hours, for the other one, three hours.

6 I have browsed through his statement, and I don't know. I mean,

7 I -- more or less we are in the same -- in the same situation. But if you

8 require three hours, as you did for this particular witness, for the next

9 one, then basically I don't think it's the case of bringing over to

10 The Hague the other witness, number 7, the woman.

11 MR. WUBBEN: I understand, yes.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: That's the first thing I wanted to draw your

13 attention to, because if you need -- we need on Monday, we need to finish

14 this witness, and then you need three hours for the next witness, and

15 I -- I presume they need another two hours at least for the same witness.

16 So basically that would cover Monday and Tuesday. So there's no point in

17 bringing number 7 as well. There's no point in bringing number 7

18 unless --

19 MR. WUBBEN: Your Honour, I can check during the break if we can

20 limit number 6 instead of three hours to two hours.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, but still. I mean, what are you going to

22 solve?

23 MR. WUBBEN: And number 7 as well to two hours. Does that make

24 any difference in your opinion.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, one can work it out because it's just basic

Page 1520

1 arithmetic. We have three hours, 45 minutes every sitting, so

2 that's -- you have seven hours and a half, seven hours and a half. We --

3 I reckon that we need next 45 minutes plus another hour and a half for

4 this one, so that's an hour and a half from seven hours and a half, leaves

5 you with six hours. If you are prepared to divide the six hours, three

6 hours each for each witness, one and a half hour you, and one hour and a

7 half for the Defence, yes, we can go along. But if you require more than

8 one and a half hours each we can't make it. That's the first point I

9 wanted to make. The second --

10 MR. WUBBEN: We need more, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: The second point is this -- I think so because I

12 have got the statements here.

13 The second point is this: We mentioned earlier on -- or we have

14 agreed basically that Mr. Gow will not come here on -- starting on the

15 29th but will come here starting on the 22nd. If I recall well, we -- you

16 had indicated then the days of the 23rd, 24th, to 25th for the

17 video-conferencing in case we accept that -- that motion.

18 So assuming for the time being the likelihood that we accept that

19 motion and that we grant it for the video-conferencing, you have to think

20 about moving those dates, and I know that you require for that purpose at

21 least three weeks to four weeks to do that.

22 So in the break, during the break think about these things and

23 tell us whether you are dropping number 7 for the time being from next

24 week's list and whether you would move the video-conferencing from those

25 days to some other day, in which case please communicate the days to us so

Page 1521

1 that if we grant the motion and need to draw the -- up the decision, we

2 will indicate the new dates and not the dates which would require you to

3 then file another motion or note to change the dates and so on and so

4 forth.

5 So I'm just asking you to address these problems. All right? On

6 a management, housekeeping business.

7 Yes, Madam Vidovic.

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would just like to

9 ask the Prosecutor to keep in mind that the cross-examination of witness

10 number 7, who is very important to us, we would need at least two hours as

11 well as for this next witness.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I would think so, because they are more or

13 less testifying on -- on the same events. And -- anyway, I said I browsed

14 through the other two statements as I could. Browsed, literally browsed,

15 and I don't think we can finish either of them in an hour and a half on

16 either side to be honest with you. But it's up to you. If you can agree

17 on that, let us know.

18 MR. WUBBEN: Your Honour, I will get back to you.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. So we will have a 25-minute break, which

20 basically means that we start at ten to one, please.

21 --- Recess taken at 12.27 p.m.

22 --- On resuming at 12.59 p.m.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Vidovic. Oh, I see Mr. Wubben.

24 MR. WUBBEN: Thank you, Your Honour. I wanted to update you

25 regarding scheduling. We did some exercising, and I have some final draft

Page 1522

1 before me, but anyhow, we will provide you with a schedule, a new

2 schedule, in hard copy on Monday first thing.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: The important thing is that you have taken into

4 consideration that I said earlier. The rest is up to you. I mean, I --

5 MR. WUBBEN: Yes. We have taken it into consideration, and it

6 will mean that we plan Professor Gow, then, in this first week after the

7 break in November, starting the 22nd, 23rd, 24th, and then we have two

8 projected videolink witnesses pending on motion and to be decided by

9 Trial Chamber. That will end that week, the 25th and the 26th. Then we

10 will slot in the Tuesday witness and then everything goes --

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Fine. Okay.

12 MR. WUBBEN: That's it.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: That's perfect. Thank you, Mr. Wubben.

14 MR. WUBBEN: You're welcome.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Vidovic.

16 Cross-examined by Ms. Vidovic:

17 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Stevanovic.

18 A. Good afternoon.

19 Q. I will remind you that in 2000, you gave a statement to the OTP;

20 is that correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And you signed that statement?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. In that statement, when speaking about Mocevici, which you again

25 referred to today, you stated that in April or in May 1992, you were in

Page 1523

1 Mocevici and that you saw Muslims putting up barricades that were meant to

2 prevent the movement of any tanks or heavy weaponry. Is that correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Those you meant were Serb tanks or artillery; right?

5 A. I don't know whose. In Lipova woods, there were wooden beams

6 across the road with several metres between them. They were afraid that

7 tanks would come from Srebrenica, because Srebrenica at the time, there

8 were Serbs there, and those people were Muslims.

9 Q. Thank you very much, sir. That means, doesn't it -- doesn't this

10 indicate that the Muslims felt threatened at the time?

11 A. Well, probably, otherwise they would not have been putting up

12 barricades had they not felt threatened.

13 Q. Thank you very much for this clarification. You said that you

14 knew a man named Slavko Jovanovic?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Slavko Jovanovic was a member of the Main Board of the SDS for

17 Bratunac municipality. Is that not correct? You can continue, sir.

18 A. As far as I know, we were in Fakovici towards Skelani

19 municipality. We had nothing to do with Bratunac municipality.

20 Q. Is it not correct that Mr. Slavko Jovanovic was president of the

21 Fakovici SDS local branch?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Is it not true that Mr. Slavko Jovanovic was in charge of

24 obtaining weapons for the Fakovici area?

25 A. I don't know whether he was in charge or not. As far as I know,

Page 1524

1 he was the one who procured weapons. Whether he was officially in charge,

2 I don't know.

3 Q. Very well. Thank you. The Fakovici area includes your own

4 village and the surrounding hamlets, doesn't it?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Mr. Stevanovic, you closely cooperated with Slavko Jovanovic,

7 didn't you?

8 A. No.

9 Q. You were actively involved in obtaining weapons for the Serbian

10 population of the village of Ratkovici, weren't you?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Before the war, because you had distributed weapons to the

13 population, you clashed with some of the local Serbs; isn't that correct?

14 A. No, that's not correct.

15 Q. Mr. Stevanovic, while you were distributing weapons to the Serb

16 population of the entire area, there was coordination with the JNA and

17 certain people from Serbia. Are you perhaps aware of that?

18 A. No.

19 Q. You mean this is not true?

20 A. I don't know. It may as well be true, it's just that I'm not

21 aware of it, and I did not do any coordination. Whether perhaps Slavko

22 was involved or anyone else may have been in charge, I don't know.

23 Q. Do you have any knowledge that anyone at all was maintaining

24 contact, I mean the people in Fakovici or in your own village, with people

25 from the JNA and certain other individuals from Serbia?

Page 1525

1 A. No, I have no such knowledge.

2 Q. Is it not true that the Fakovici area received weapons from Serbia

3 by raft or by boat across the River Drina?

4 A. It may as well have been the case, but I don't know. We were up

5 in the hills. As I said before during the examination-in-chief, we had

6 driven our cattle away, and they stole our cattle down in the area near

7 the river. We were more reliant on the hilly area over there. We were

8 Srebrenica, and they were Bratunac municipality.

9 Q. But you can't rule out such a possibility, can you?

10 A. No, I can't rule it out.

11 Q. Today in your testimony, you referred to the village of Ruljevici.

12 A. Yes, I did.

13 Q. That is a part of Ratkovici -- or, rather, of their hamlet of

14 Vranesevici?

15 A. No. Vranesevici belongs to Bratunac, and Ratkovici belongs to

16 Srebrenica.

17 Q. Is it not correct that this is very near your own village?

18 A. Yes, that's correct.

19 Q. What is the exact distance between Ruljevici and your own village?

20 A. Three kilometres.

21 Q. Isn't it true that Ruljevici and your own village are actually on

22 the same side of the Drina River?

23 A. Yes, of course, on the Drina River.

24 Q. So that's true. Isn't it true that in Ruljevici there was the

25 main training camp for Serb soldiers as well as the storage facilities for

Page 1526

1 weapons even prior to the war?

2 A. No, that's not true.

3 Q. It is true, isn't it, Mr. Stevanovic, that in the surroundings of

4 this camp in Ruljevici, which was near where you lived, prior to the

5 outbreak of war there had been mounting tensions between the ethnic

6 groups, and there was a scandal over the storage facility where weapons

7 were being kept on account of which high municipal delegations came to

8 Ruljevici?

9 A. I don't remember that because I was not a member of the SDS.

10 Therefore, I was not involved in any of those negotiations, neither those

11 regarding weapons nor the other things. I was just an ordinary farmer.

12 Whether there was anything like that that actually happened or not, I

13 don't know.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Please be given one of the maps that were tendered

15 this morning, preferably P402 and please locate on this map the location

16 of the village of Ruljevici, Ruljevici, please, because it's not

17 immediately visible here, or apparent. I don't know.

18 If you don't see it, sir, could you just at least indicate on the

19 map the approximate location as you think it is in your opinion.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There is no writing saying Ruljevici

21 here, but it might be this hamlet marked right here. Just close to

22 Vranesevici.

23 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for counsel, please.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Therefore, close to Vranesevici,

25 down towards the Drina, where it says Drina.

Page 1527

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I asked the witness to point

2 Vranesevici out on the map.

3 Q. My question to you, Mr. Stevanovic, was: Isn't it true --

4 Your Honours, my apologies. I did not notice that.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no.

6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. So my question to you was not whether you were personally involved

8 in that. Rather, my question was: Is it not true that a scandal broke

9 out over that storage facility, Serbs' storage facility where weapons were

10 being kept prior to the war, and because of this a high municipal

11 delegation arrived in the town?

12 A. As far as I know, there was no scandal whatsoever, at least to the

13 extent that I was familiar with that particular situation.

14 Q. So you heard nothing about the president of Srebrenica

15 municipality and his deputy alongside with the most responsible people in

16 Srebrenica, actually came there to look into the warehouse situation?

17 A. I didn't even know who the president of Srebrenica was at the

18 time.

19 Q. The president of municipality doesn't exactly come to your village

20 every day. It's not an everyday occurrence, is it no?

21 A. No. By no means.

22 Q. Thank you very much, Witness. I'll move on to ask you about

23 something else now.

24 The Serb population of your own village and the other villages in

25 the Fakovici area, even prior to the outbreak of war they caused unrest

Page 1528

1 among the Muslims in the area by shooting; isn't that correct?

2 A. Not as far as I know. This was certainly not the case with my

3 village. My own hamlet of Bradjevina, certainly not. As for the other

4 villages, Fakovici --

5 Q. Ratkovici, for example?

6 A. Ratkovici, I certainly would have heard sounds of shooting had

7 that been the case.

8 Q. So what you're trying to say is that you never heard sounds of

9 shooting at night coming from those villages, nor did anyone publicly

10 speak about that at any time.

11 A. Yes, there was shooting from Mocevici and from Ratkovici on

12 several occasions, not just once, in 1992, because in 1992, I gave a

13 statement that he had been killed on the 26th of May, and there had been

14 shooting prior to that.

15 Q. My question was in relation to events prior to the outbreak of

16 war. Did you ever hear or did anyone publicly speak about the local

17 population of Ratkovici and the surroundings shooting at night,

18 causing -- firing at night, causing unrest among the local Muslim

19 population?

20 A. I heard no such thing.

21 Q. The Muslim village of Poznanovici is in the immediate vicinity of

22 your own village, Bradjevina which is a hamlet in Ratkovici, isn't it?

23 A. It's just the other side of the hill. Ratkovici is closer to

24 Poznanovici than my village. You can have a look at the map to see for

25 yourself if you like.

Page 1529

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can I have the usher's assistance,

2 please. I would like to show the witness a map, the map that we have used

3 before. The map is from the Zvornik file, the Zvornik folder. I think

4 it's a bit more accurate, this map, because it contains all of these

5 hamlets with the corresponding markings. We shall not use the map now as

6 an exhibit, but we would like to have it distributed to all the parties,

7 including the Chamber. We would like the witness to point out a number of

8 different villages on this map right here.

9 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, I have no problem with the

10 exercise Madam Vidovic is conducting. I only express some concerns about

11 this process of showing material to witnesses that is not

12 identified -- either marked for identification or tendered. At some point

13 later in the transcript should it ever becomes necessary that we need to

14 go back months and months down the track and you try to understand this

15 evidence, then we'll have to have something that's marked for

16 identification or an exhibit. So I've got no problem, but let's have it

17 marked at least.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: It's the suggestion or the remark of Mr. Di Fazio

19 makes a hell of a lot of sense. I suggest that you tender it. There's no

20 problem in admitting it, and we can always use it as a reference if we

21 need to relation to the testimony of this witness. Okay?

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. Thank you very much,

23 Your Honours. We can do that. However, we expected that during their

24 examination-in-chief, the OTP would use maps that both parties could then

25 find helpful. However, we would like to request that this map be marked

Page 1530

1 at least.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Very well. Witness, could you please have a look here --

5 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the document will be D46.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: So this is being admitted as Defence Exhibit D46.

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

8 Q. Witness, can you please show the Chamber the village of Ratkovici

9 on this map that you have in front of you?

10 A. Yes, of course.

11 Q. Perhaps you could use a pen to point it out.

12 A. It's marked already.

13 Q. Very well, but could you please point it out again for us. Have

14 you found it?

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Give him the pointer, please. Can you just -- yes.

16 For the record, the Trial Chamber affirms that the witness has pointed to

17 a place called Ratkovici, marked Ratkovici on the map D46. Yes.

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19 Q. Witness, can you please now point to the Mlecva area.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. For the record, the witness points to an area

21 which is marked Mlecva on the map D46. Thank you.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Witness, can you now shown us the Brezani area.

24 A. [Indicates]

25 Q. Thank you?

Page 1531

1 JUDGE AGIUS: And for the record, the witness points to a place

2 named -- named Brezani on the map D46.

3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation].

4 Q. And finally, Witness, can you please again show us the Fakovici

5 area? It's marked next to Vranesevici. It's off the map a little. Can

6 you just confirm whether it's the same general direction? If you could

7 look at Vranesevici.

8 A. Yes, Grabovicka Rijeka, Vranesevici.

9 Q. Yes, Vranesevici. And just next to it says Fakovici, three

10 kilometres; is that correct? If you can have a look, please. It can be

11 seen clearly, but you're pointing the right way. Thank you, thank you,

12 Witness.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: For the record, the witness points to the words

14 "Fakovici" to the right of Vranesevici on the map between line 86 and 84.

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Witness, can you please show Poznanovici, the village of

17 Poznanovici?

18 A. [Indicates]

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. For the record, the witness points to a spot

20 on the map indicated with the name Poznanovici.

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Next, Witness, I would like you to indicate Potkorjen. Is it not

23 true that Dedici is nearby except but it's not marked?

24 A. Yes, that's quite correct.

25 Q. Very well.

Page 1532

1 JUDGE AGIUS: For the record, the witness points to Potkorjen on

2 the map.

3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation].

4 Q. Finally, Witness, can you please indicate the village of Mocevici.

5 A. [Indicates]

6 JUDGE AGIUS: And the witness, for the record, points to a place

7 indicated with the name Mocevici on map D46.

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Then the village of Orlica. Is it not true that there is a

10 village called Orlica nearby?

11 JUDGE AGIUS: There are two Orlicas. One is supposedly

12 Gornji Orlica --

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Gornja and Donje. Yes, indeed,

14 Your Honour.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Which?

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Both. I want both.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: So for the record, the witness indicates both

18 Donja Orlica and Gornja Orlica.

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation].

20 Q. Witness, can I just ask you some questions in relation to these,

21 please. Is it not true that the villages of Poznanovici, Potkorjen, and

22 Dedici are Muslim villages and hamlets?

23 A. Yes. Yes.

24 Q. When you were telling us about the abandoned villages where no one

25 had returned, you mentioned your Bradjevina. I will ask you to show where

Page 1533

1 it is later. You mentioned Bradjevina, but isn't it also true that you

2 mentioned these three villages, Poznanovici, Potkorjen, and Dedici?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. These are Muslim villages which had overgrown and to which no one

5 had returned?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Just to clarify that. Could you also indicate now your

8 Bradjevina?

9 A. Well, it's not on the map, so I will show you that approximately.

10 Q. Thank you. And if you can just indicate that with an X, please.

11 A. [Marks]

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Put that X in a circle, please, and put your

13 initials next to it. So for the record, the witness put an X indicating

14 the village of Bradjevina and fixed his initials next to it. The spot

15 indicated by him is below Grabovica on map D46, and to the left of

16 Vranesevici.

17 Let's proceed, Madam Vidovic.

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Isn't it true, Mr. Stevanovic, that Poznanovici, Potkorjen and

20 Dedici are surrounded -- which are Muslim village, Poznanovici, Potkorjen,

21 and Dedici, that they are Muslim villages and they are surrounded by Serb

22 villages of Brezani, Ratkovici, Mlecva and Fakovici over there?

23 A. Yes, that is correct. From Mlecva and Ratkovici, but from

24 Brezani, Osmace are much closer to Potkorjen, Dedici than Brezani.

25 Q. Could you immediately indicate Osmace on the map?

Page 1534

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you want him to mark it.

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, please, I want him to mark it.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Could you mark it with an O and then put that O in a

4 circle, please. And put your initials next to it, please.

5 THE WITNESS: [Marks]

6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Thank you, sir.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, thank you.

9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Now I would like you to pay attention to the villages which we

11 discussed before. These are Zapolje, Orlica, and Mocevici. Isn't that

12 so?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Are these Muslim villages?

15 A. Orlica is half and half. There is a Serbian Orlica and there is a

16 Roma Orlica.

17 Q. These Romas, are they of the Islamic faith?

18 A. I don't know what their religious affiliation is.

19 Q. Were they perhaps expelled in April and May 1992 of any

20 ethnic -- of any ethnicity?

21 A. In May, they were expelled just as we were. They were expelled.

22 Q. Who expelled them?

23 A. How should I know who expelled them? I don't know if they were

24 expelled by the TO from Bratunac or Skelani. I don't know.

25 Q. These Territorial Defences that you mentioned, this is the Serbian

Page 1535

1 Territorial Defence, isn't it?

2 A. Well, of course they were not expelled by Muslims. Mocevici could

3 not expel Mocevici.

4 Q. Thank you very much. I wanted to ask you something else now. Is

5 it true that the population of Poznanovici, which you just indicated, even

6 before the war protested, frequently protested because Serbs from the area

7 of Ratkovici and Fakovici fired in the direction of their village?

8 A. I don't know that.

9 Q. Sir, now I would like to ask you to look at your Ratkovici. You

10 indicated that.

11 A. Bradjevina is mine, not Ratkovici.

12 Q. Yes. The hamlet of Ratkovici.

13 A. The local commune was Ratkovici. The hamlet was Bradjevina.

14 Q. Very well. Thank you. Do you agree that in 1991, Ratkovici was a

15 large village?

16 A. No, it wasn't really a large village. I have it in a statement

17 how many households there were in that village. It wasn't a large village

18 by population.

19 Q. What did you say?

20 A. Ratkovici did not have more than 30 households.

21 Q. Thank you.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the usher please put an

23 excerpt from the population census, the census of population households,

24 property, from 1990 which was issued in Sarajevo in May 1991. This is the

25 last official population census of Bosnia-Herzegovina. Could the witness

Page 1536

1 please be shown that.

2 Q. Sir, on page 3 could you look at the information for Ratkovici.

3 For Ratkovici. It states here that Ratkovici had 338 inhabitants, 85

4 households, 111 apartments, and 77 agricultural farms or properties.

5 Could you lease look at this excerpt?

6 A. I've looked at it.

7 Q. Is it true that Ratkovici had 85 households, 111 apartments, and

8 77 farms?

9 A. Yes, it's true, but including the villages around

10 the -- Ratkovici. This talks about the entire local community of

11 Ratkovici and only Ratkovici is mentioned. The other local communities

12 are not mentioned. This is a total number of the population.

13 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not get the names of the

14 hamlets.

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. When you told the Prosecutor that in 2000, today you --

17 JUDGE AGIUS: The interpreters -- the interpreters did not manage

18 to catch the final part of the witness's reply, answer. I took it that he

19 was mentioning names of villages which he considers to form part of

20 Ratkovici commune. If he could -- if he could -- if he could finish his

21 reply and then we have a question from Judge Eser.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation].

23 Q. Could you please tell us what you understand to be the village of

24 Ratkovici?

25 A. All the hamlets in that local community. There are no Magudovici,

Page 1537

1 Bradjevina, Dvorista, Ducici, Polimci, Kaludra. There is no information

2 about those villages.

3 Q. What did you --

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Judge Eser.

5 JUDGE ESER: I must say I'm still lit bit confused. Now you speak

6 of Ratkovici and it seems to have two different meanings. Ratkovici as

7 own village, and around Ratkovici is a commune which comprises other

8 hamlets. Now, when you spoke about, I think, 30 or something households

9 of Ratkovici, did you speak of the village of Ratkovici not including the

10 hamlets around Ratkovici? Is that correct?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, only the Gornji and Donji

12 Ratkovici. They have about 30 houses. And then it's plus these other

13 hamlets.

14 JUDGE ESER: So the number we have here on this exhibit would

15 include beside Gornji Ratkovici all of the other hamlets; is that correct?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Yes. Go ahead, Madam Vidovic, please.

18 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation].

20 Q. My next question would be: Could you please tell us, which are

21 those hamlets which would be a part of the Ratkovici local commune?

22 A. Donji Ratkovici and Gornji Ratkovici, Dvorista, Ducici,

23 Magudovici, Bradjevina, Kaludra, Koljanica [phoen], Poznanovici, Dedici,

24 and Potkorjen were all part of the Ratkovici local commune.

25 Q. Thank you very much, Witness. I would like you to stay on the

Page 1538

1 same page and look a little bit higher on the page when all the villages

2 are mentioned. You will see the village of Poznanovici with all the

3 information which is completely different. Look at it. Poznanovici, 444

4 inhabitants, 68 households, 76 apartments, 66 farms. What are you talking

5 about?

6 A. I am talking about the information about Dedici, Potkorjen, and

7 Poznanovici, because when the census was carried out they were separated,

8 this is what I know. Because here, there is no Potkorjen and Dedici.

9 There's only Poznanovici here.

10 Q. You have just said here that Poznanovici was a hamlet, which was a

11 part of Ratkovici and that those households should have been included in

12 this number that you read out. That is not correct.

13 A. Right. They should have been included, but they were not.

14 Q. Thank you, Your Honour. I will continue with my questions. I

15 would just like to have this exhibit -- have a number, have -- be given a

16 Defence Exhibit number?

17 JUDGE AGIUS: This is being admitted as Defence Exhibit D47.

18 Thank you.

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would just like to ask the

20 usher -- I cannot see the witness?

21 JUDGE AGIUS: The ELMO -- the ELMO is constructing the view of the

22 witness to counsel. So if you could. Thank you.

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Thank you. Thank you,

24 Your Honour.

25 Q. Now I would like to ask you something else, Mr. Stevanovic.

Page 1539

1 Mr. Stevanovic, you were a close friend of General Milenko Zivanovic, the

2 commander of the Drina Corps who visited you often, didn't he?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Isn't it correct that you even received an M-72 machine-gun which

5 you had with you throughout the whole war?

6 A. No. That is not correct. That is a lie.

7 Q. You said today that you bought your weapon.

8 A. That is correct.

9 Q. Now I would like to ask you something about the attack itself on

10 Ratkovici on the 21st of June.

11 You said today that you were in Bradjevina during the attack. Is

12 that correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. You also said that Bradjevina is a few kilometres from Ratkovici.

15 Isn't that correct?

16 A. Yes. Three kilometres as the crow flies, I said.

17 Q. Three kilometres as the crow flies.

18 A. Well, maybe that's not the exact measurement. It could be less.

19 Q. Could you please tell me that -- are you actually saying you're

20 between Ratkovici and Bradjevina and the nearby area that there is a

21 valley?

22 A. No.

23 Q. This is a hilly region, isn't it?

24 A. The Grabovacka river, the small river, flows in between those

25 villages.

Page 1540

1 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the counsel.

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Do you agree that this is a hilly area?

4 A. Yes, I do.

5 Q. You also said that on the 21st of June, 1992, it was foggy that

6 morning.

7 A. Yes, that's correct.

8 Q. How were you able to see, then, uniforms and weapons at a distance

9 of two to three kilometres in this region? It's true that you were not

10 able to see that, isn't it?

11 A. No, that is not correct, because when Ratkovici was set on fire

12 and when they had gone out into the fields to burn the agricultural

13 buildings from the other side --

14 Q. So it means that it is correct that you did not see who torched

15 those buildings.

16 A. I saw who torched them, but I did not recognise by face who it was

17 of those people, but I could see that this was done by soldiers.

18 Q. Are you trying to say that you saw this in this hilly area from a

19 distance of two to three kilometres?

20 A. What I want to say is that Bradjevina and Polimci and

21 Gornji Ratkovici look to each other while Donji Ratkovici and Ducici are

22 behind the hill and you cannot see them from Bradjevina so you cannot see

23 them at all although they are all next to each other.

24 Q. Are you trying to say that when we go there and when we stand at

25 that same place we will be able to see what you were able to see?

Page 1541

1 A. Yes, that is correct.

2 Q. And you are saying that you could see people moving in that

3 terrain?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. It is correct that you did not have binoculars? You said that.

6 A. Yes, that is correct.

7 Q. Now I would like to remind you of your testimony to the Prosecutor

8 in 2000. You said then I -- I would just draw your attention if you would

9 need it I would like to provide you with that statement. It is page 4 of

10 the Bosnian version. You said that you heard women and men there banging

11 on their pots and pans in order to make a noise?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Is this correct?

14 A. Yes, it is.

15 Q. Can you describe that for us? I would like to ask you to explain

16 to us what was happening.

17 A. The shouting, the noise, the swearing, yes, everything.

18 Q. Mr. Stevanovic, weren't these desperate people who had to bang on

19 their pots and pans in order to frighten the enemy women and civilians who

20 were risking their lives in this way in order to get to food? Isn't that

21 so?

22 A. Madam from the Defence, I don't know whether they were forced to

23 do that because they were attacking us. So that means they were not

24 defending themselves. They were going to burn and loot Serbian villages.

25 Whether they were expelled or not, that is something that I don't know,

Page 1542

1 but it is for sure that in places where they were surrounded by Serbian

2 villages, they were probably expelled. But I'm just talking about what I

3 know and not what I don't know.

4 Q. You don't know about them banging their pots on that day?

5 A. Yes, of course I do.

6 Q. I would like to ask you now something that you have referred to

7 already. Is it not true that the Serb army, including fighters from your

8 own village, held under siege several thousands of peoples -- of people

9 who had been expelled from the surrounding Muslim villages in the woods in

10 the areas of Poznanovici and Mocevici villages?

11 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, I object to that question.

12 There's no specification of when or how or why.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Exactly. I was going to ask when. When, how or why

14 it's a different matter, but what time frame are you referring to,

15 Madam Vidovic, please.

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to rephrase my

17 question, Your Honours, thank you.

18 Q. Is it not correct, Witness, that the Serb army, between April

19 and -- between April of 1992 and late 1992 and especially in May and July

20 1992, held under siege several thousands of persons who had been expelled

21 from the surrounding Muslim villages in the woods in the area of those

22 Muslim villages that we referred to?

23 A. No, that's not correct.

24 Q. What, then, is true? Awhile ago you said that you knew they had

25 been expelled.

Page 1543

1 A. Who could have laid siege to Poznanovici at that time if everyone

2 was just defending their own houses, the population in the Fakovici area?

3 There wasn't a single unit to be found in Fakovici in May.

4 Q. We'll get to that. We'll get to that too.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: If you are concluding on this event, go ahead. If

6 you're moving to something new, I think we better adjourn. It's up to

7 you. You've got one, two minutes left.

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Just another question, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead. Go ahead.

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Witness, please, is it not true that people from those villages

12 were expelled in April, May, and June 1992 and that they were staying in

13 the surrounding woods? Did you have any knowledge of that?

14 A. How could I have been aware of how many people were in the woods

15 or were in Poznanovici and Mocevici and who had withdrawn from their

16 villages?

17 A. It is true that they left their village.

18 Q. Yes, they certainly withdrew from their village, but I didn't go

19 to these villages to see for myself whether they were still there or they

20 had left. I didn't go to any village, Muslim or Serb. I was in

21 Bradjevina where I lived until the fall of Bradjevina. After that, I

22 spent 20 days in Fakovici, perhaps give or take a day or two, and then I

23 left.

24 Q. Thank you very much?

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I will stop right here

Page 1544

1 and continue on Monday.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Mr. Stevanovic that brings your testimony to

3 an end for today. I was very optimistic in the beginning of the sitting

4 that you would have gone home for the weekend. Unfortunately, that is not

5 possible. You need to stay here, and I'm sure we'll finish off with you

6 on Monday when we reconvene. I thank everyone, and have a nice weekend,

7 and we will all meet again on Monday. Please check which courtroom.

8 Thank you.

9 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.45 p.m.,

10 to be reconvened on Monday, the 1st day of

11 November, 2004, at 9.00 a.m.

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