Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 2017

1 Thursday, 25 November 2004

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.08 a.m.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Please be seated.

5 [The accused entered court]

6 JUDGE AGIUS: So good morning, everybody.

7 Mr. Registrar, could you call the case, please.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, thank you, Your Honour. Case IT-03-68-T, the

9 Prosecutor versus Naser Oric.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you.

11 Mr. Oric, can you follow the proceedings in a language that you

12 can understand?

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours, ladies

14 and gentlemen. Yes, I can.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. Please be seated.

16 Appearances for the Prosecution.

17 MR. DI FAZIO: Good morning. If Your Honours please, my name is

18 Di Fazio and I appear for the Prosecution today.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, and good morning to you.

20 Appearances for the Naser Oric.

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. Vasvija

22 Vidovic, together with Mr. John Jones, appearing for Mr. Naser Oric.

23 Joining us here today are our legal assistant, Ms. Jasmina Cosic, and our

24 case manager, Mr. Geoff Roberts.

25 Your Honours, we are not receiving any interpretation at the

Page 2018

1 moment.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: That's not good news, since for this sitting we will

3 be relying mostly on the technical expertise and facilities that we have.

4 I have been saying something in English precisely so that -- can you

5 receive interpretation now?

6 MS. VIDOVIC: [In English] Now I can. Thank you very much.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: So are there any preliminary matters that you'd like

8 to raise before we start --

9 MR. DI FAZIO: I'm having a little bit of trouble myself with my

10 headphones, if Your Honours please. I can't get any reception through

11 them. I hope I'm not doing something obvious.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: We can change them for you, Mr. Di Fazio.

13 MR. DI FAZIO: Ah, then I'm ready to go, if Your Honours please.

14 MR. JONES: Your Honour, one matter I might mention while the

15 technical difficulty is being dealt with. As I indicated to my learned

16 friend, we would need approximately an hour and a half with this witness.

17 I know yesterday Your Honour expressed a desire to be finished with this

18 witness today. So from the planning point of view, if I were to start my

19 cross-examination at approximately 11.30 today, then that wouldn't present

20 any difficulties. If it were much after that, then we might run into

21 difficulties.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Di Fazio, yes.

23 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, if Your Honours please, hers is a very simple

24 story, and I'm hopeful that I can finish it in the time. I'll do

25 everything possible. I'm confident that I'll be able to finish by about

Page 2019

1 11.30.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: To be honest with you, I thought we would be

3 finished with this witness in chief and cross by 10.30. Because it's such

4 a simply story and straightforward, I simply can't understand or figure

5 this happening in a national jurisdiction. A witness like this would last

6 maximum half an hour, maximum.

7 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, it is a very simple story, if Your Honours

8 please. There are a number of details that we have to lead.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Let's start.

10 MR. DI FAZIO: I'm aware of what you want, and I'll --

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Just stick to the events that are relevant to the

12 indictment and avoid asking the witness questions that relate to events

13 that are not part of the indictment, unless they were relevant for the

14 purpose of the indictment.

15 Mr. Siller in Belgrade, can you hear me and can you see me?

16 Yes, I can see you but I cannot hear you.

17 In the background, yes. In the background, yes. But I get the

18 impression that I'm hearing you because there is another microphone

19 nearby, not through your own microphone.

20 Could you repeat? We've just raised the volume a little bit.

21 Yes, could I ask you to repeat?

22 THE REGISTRAR: [In Belgrade] Your Honours, can you hear me now?

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Oh, yes. Now I can hear you more than I should,

24 actually. Okay, thank you.

25 So is the witness, Svetlana Trifunovic near you, Mr. Siller?

Page 2020

1 THE REGISTRAR: [In Belgrade] Yes. The witness is sitting into

2 the room next to us here, and if you want me to bring the witness in, I

3 can do that.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Are there any matters that you wish to raise

5 in relation to this witness before we bring her in the room where she will

6 be testifying?

7 MR. DI FAZIO: No, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, none. Yes, Mr. Siller. You can admit the

9 witness into the room.

10 THE REGISTRAR: [In Belgrade] I will do so.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. And before you do so, has she been briefed?

12 Would someone brief her as to the procedure?

13 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, I certainly did as to the general procedure

14 that would be adopted, if Your Honours please, when I proofed her. I

15 think she knows what's going on.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: That's the important thing, because this could

17 frighten her if she is not used to it.

18 THE REGISTRAR: [In Belgrade] I can tell you that the witness has

19 been brought in and she knows what's going on.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I thank you, Mr. Siller. And do you

21 have handy the text of the solemn declaration?

22 THE REGISTRAR: [In Belgrade] Yes. I have it handy. It's here on

23 my desk.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So I'm going to address the witness.

25 THE REGISTRAR: [In Belgrade] Your Honours, the witness can hear

Page 2021

1 you now.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: I want to make sure, madam, that you can follow what

3 I am saying in English in your own language, in other words, that you are

4 receiving interpretation.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What did he say? Yes, I can hear.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Trifunovic, would you please look at the

7 camera and listen to what I have to tell you.

8 I am the Presiding Judge. At the moment, I am presiding over the

9 case against Naser Oric here at -- the time of 9.20 almost in The Hague,

10 in the Netherlands. You are one of the witnesses for the Prosecution, and

11 we have granted permission to have your testimony given via videolink.

12 I wish to inform you that very soon your testimony will start, but

13 before we start with your testimony, our rules require that you make a

14 solemn declaration to the effect that, in the course of your testimony,

15 you will be speaking the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the

16 truth. The text of this solemn declaration, which is equivalent to an

17 oath, is contained in a piece of paper which my man over there,

18 Mr. Siller, will be handing to you. Please read it out aloud, and that

19 will be your solemn undertaking with us, that in the course of your

20 testimony, you will be testifying the truth.

21 Could you follow what I was staying?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

23 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. It's --

25 MR. DI FAZIO: I can hear what she is saying, but I'm not getting

Page 2022












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Page 2023

1 any translation at all.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Neither could I. Let's go through it again.

3 Ms. Trifunovic, could I ask you to read out that solemn

4 declaration again, please, because it did not get through.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

6 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


8 [Witness answered through interpreter]

9 [Witness testified through videolink]

10 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Ms. Trifunovic. I ask for your

11 indulgence and your patience, should things not work out 100 per cent.

12 This is modern technology and sometimes we encounter glitches. So please,

13 if it doesn't work 100 per cent, I ask you to bear with us a little bit

14 and be patient.

15 I am now going to ask Mr. Di Fazio, who you have met before, who

16 is one of the officers of the Prosecution in this case, he is going to ask

17 you a series of questions. After, when he's finished, you will be asked a

18 series of questions on cross-examination by Mr. Jones, who is appearing

19 for Naser Oric. Your responsibility as a witness is to answer all

20 questions, irrespective of who is putting them to you, to answer all

21 questions truly and fully, in accordance with the solemn declaration that

22 you have made.

23 Please try to be concise in your answers, to the point, and don't

24 say things that you are not asked about. In other words, restrict your

25 answer to the question, and please don't try to go beyond that.

Page 2024

1 Mr. Di Fazio.

2 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you, Your Honours.

3 Examined by Mr. Di Fazio:

4 Q. Ms. Trifunovic, in addition to what His Honour just told you, if

5 you answer the question with a yes or no, that would help me. So just

6 remember that, please. If you can just say yes or no, that's of

7 considerable use.

8 You were born in 1981, and in January of 1993, I think you were

9 about 11 years old; is that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And you're of Serb ethnicity, and in 1993, you were living in a

12 small village --

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. In 1993, you were living in a small village called Kostolomci;

15 correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. All right. And you lived there with your mother, I believe, your

18 grandfather and your grandmother; is that so?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. I just need the names of your mother and your grandfather. What

21 are they?

22 A. Zivana and Mile.

23 Q. Thank you. I want to direction your attention to events that

24 occurred in 1993, in January of 1993, events that occurred between the

25 Serb Christmas that year and the New Year. Do you remember, first of all,

Page 2025

1 that period of time?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Around that period of time, or, I should say, between those two

4 festivals, Christmas and New Year, was your village attacked?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. During the course of the attack, was your mother captured?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber the ethnicity of the soldiers who

9 attacked your village of Kostolomci.

10 A. They were Muslims.

11 Q. What makes you say that? Why do you say to the Trial Chamber that

12 they were Muslim soldiers? Was there anything that you heard them saying,

13 or is it the way they spoke, something about the way they dressed,

14 anything at all that you can think of that makes you say that they were

15 Muslims?

16 A. By their clothes and by their voice.

17 Q. Okay. Thank you. Can you remember how they were dressed?

18 A. Green, green uniforms.

19 Q. Thank you. Did they have any insignia or any attachments to their

20 green uniforms?

21 A. They had black ribbons.

22 Q. Thank you. Where were they tied?

23 A. Around their arms.

24 Q. Thank you. Now, you were 12, I think. Once the attack started

25 and you saw your mother captured --

Page 2026

1 A. Bit of stage fright there.

2 Q. Okay. Once the attack started and your mother was captured, did

3 you flee, did you run away?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Where did you run?

6 A. We ran straight away, immediately.

7 Q. I'm asking about you. Where did you, you in particular, you the

8 little girl, aged 12, run? Where did you run to?

9 A. To the bakery, my uncle's bakery.

10 Q. And how long did you stay at your uncle's bakery?

11 A. One night.

12 Q. Were you alone there?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Did you return to your house?

15 A. On the following day, in the morning, I returned to my house.

16 Q. Was your house empty?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Were all the possessions that had formally been in your house, all

19 the household goods and so on, were they still there?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. During that day, did you see anyone else?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Did you see any Muslim soldiers when you returned to your house?

24 A. At around 11.00, Muslim soldiers arrived and they took me prisoner

25 in my house.

Page 2027

1 Q. Did they come into your house and capture you there?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Okay. Again, how were these soldiers dressed?

4 A. In green uniforms, with black bands around their arms, black

5 armbands, and their faces were painted black.

6 Q. Thank you. Did these soldiers take you away?

7 A. They took me to a village called Jagodnja.

8 Q. When you were being taken from Kostolomci, having been captured,

9 did you see any other soldiers, apart from the men who captured you?

10 A. Yes, I did.

11 Q. What were they doing? The other soldiers, what were they doing in

12 Kostolomci as you were being taken away? What were they up to?

13 A. They were looting and killing Serb soldiers.

14 Q. What Serb soldiers?

15 A. They killed all the Serb soldiers, and then they looted and

16 captured people.

17 Q. Were there Serb soldiers in Kostolomci?

18 A. There were some, but they were killed.

19 Q. When were they killed?

20 A. Before I was captured.

21 Q. Were these Serb soldiers men who had been living in the village of

22 Kostolomci?

23 A. Yes. Yes.

24 Q. Local villagers?

25 A. Yes.

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Page 2029

1 Q. All right. Okay. Thank you. Now, you said that you were taken

2 to Jagodnja. Were you the only prisoner of the soldiers who took you

3 there?

4 A. My mother and my grandfather were there.

5 Q. In Jagodnja?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Okay. But you were taken, weren't you, from Kostolomci to

8 Jagodnja. During that particular trip, were you alone with the soldiers?

9 A. Yes. Yes.

10 Q. Now, where were you taken to in Jagodnja?

11 A. To a cellar.

12 Q. Was your mother and your grandfather there?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Okay. Now, from the day you fled Kostolomci and went to hide in

15 the bakery, did you ever see your grandmother again?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Thank you. When you were in the cellar in Jagodnja with your

18 grandfather and your mother, how was your grandfather dressed; can you

19 recall?

20 A. He wasn't wearing a uniform, he was wearing civilian clothes.

21 Q. And can you tell the Trial Chamber about how old he was back then,

22 back then in 1993. If you don't know precisely, can you tell us if he was

23 an old man or whether he was still in his 50s or ... Can you give us some

24 idea of how old he was?

25 A. Well, he was an old man, but I don't know how old he was.

Page 2030

1 Q. Thank you. Had you ever seen your grandfather walking around

2 Kostolomci with a gun, guarding the village?

3 A. He never carried a gun.

4 Q. Okay. Was your grandfather in the army, in the VRS or the JNA,

5 just prior to these events that you're talking about?

6 A. He had done his army service, but he wasn't in the war.

7 Q. Okay. He had done his army service as a young man, is that what

8 you mean?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Okay. When you arrived in Jagodnja and you saw your mother and

11 your grandfather, did they appear -- did they show any signs of any

12 beating?

13 A. They told me they had been beaten, but I didn't see any signs on

14 them. I was scared.

15 Q. Okay. All right. How long did you stay in Jagodnja?

16 A. One night.

17 Q. Thank you. The next day, were you, your grandfather, and your

18 mother taken to a place called Osmace?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Okay. And were you, again, the only prisoners being escorted to

21 Osmace?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Did anything happen to you or your mother or your grandfather on

24 the way from Jagodnja to Osmace, if you can remember anything?

25 A. When we were going from Jagodnja to Osmace, nothing happened to

Page 2031

1 us.

2 Q. And, again, what was the ethnicity of the soldiers who escorted

3 you from Jagodnja to Osmace?

4 A. They were Muslims.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: You are assuming and you are asking the witness to

6 assume or agree with you that they were soldiers. You did not put the

7 question whether they were soldiers in the first place.

8 MR. DI FAZIO: I'm sorry, Your Honour is quite right. I'll

9 clarify that.

10 Q. Who are the people who took you from Jagodnja and Osmace?

11 A. They were Muslim soldiers.

12 Q. Were they dressed in uniform?

13 A. They were dressed in uniform.

14 Q. Did they have the black ribbons that you have spoken of? Were

15 they wearing them?

16 A. Yes. Yes.

17 Q. Thank you. When you arrived in Osmace, where were you taken?

18 A. To the cellar.

19 Q. And were you kept there overnight, along with your mother and

20 grandfather?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. The next day, where were you taken?

23 A. The next day, we were taken to Srebrenica.

24 Q. How long did it take you to make your way from Osmace to

25 Srebrenica?

Page 2032

1 A. I don't know how many kilometres it is. I'd never even heard of

2 that area.

3 Q. Okay. Did anything happen to you, your grandfather or your mother

4 on the way from Osmace to Srebrenica?

5 A. They found a knife --

6 Q. Who found a knife?

7 A. -- the Muslim soldiers did. The Muslim soldiers.

8 Q. And what happened with the knife?

9 A. They took it.

10 Q. Yes. Please continue.

11 A. They took it and, on the knife, there was a name written. It

12 was "koljac," the throat-cutter.

13 Q. What was done with the knife?

14 A. They threatened us.

15 Q. Who was it who accompanied you from Osmace to Srebrenica?

16 A. Muslim soldiers.

17 Q. Again, how were they dressed?

18 A. They were wearing green uniforms.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Di Fazio, I'm not quite sure whether it's my

20 fault or not, but the witness, when referring to the knife, I recollect

21 hearing her say "they found a knife," but I don't recollect her saying

22 exactly where they found the knife, whether it was on the person of one of

23 them or whether it was just in the truck or lorry or whatever. I think

24 it's relevant to know. Because if it was found just lying on the truck,

25 is one thing; if it was found on the person of one of them, it's another.

Page 2033

1 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, yes. I understand where Your Honour is going.

2 Q. Let's just go back to the knife. You told us about a knife being

3 found on the way from Osmace to Srebrenica. Where was the knife located

4 when it was found?

5 A. Yes. It was on the road.

6 Q. So it was found lying on the road by one of the soldiers?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Okay. Thinking back, can you tell the Trial Chamber if either

9 you, your mother or your grandfather were armed in any way, at any time

10 from the point of your capture up until the time you arrived in

11 Srebrenica?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Thank you.

14 A. No, we weren't armed.

15 Q. Thank you. Now, just the soldiers that you have said accompanied

16 you and who were dressed in green uniforms, were they also sporting the

17 black ribbons?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. You may or may not remember this. Can you tell the Trial Chamber

20 if the two soldiers who originally captured you escorted you from Jagodnja

21 to Osmace, and from Osmace to Srebrenica. Were they in the group of

22 escorting soldiers?

23 A. Yes. They were among the group of soldiers.

24 Q. Thank you. Let's turn to your arrival in Srebrenica. Had you

25 ever been to Srebrenica before?

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Page 2035

1 A. No.

2 Q. Where were you taken?

3 A. To the prisons.

4 Q. All right. Now, you say "the prisons." What sort of building was

5 it that you were taken to?

6 A. It was a low and long building. It was all on the ground floor.

7 Q. Did it appear to be the house -- private house of a person, or did

8 it appear to you to be some sort of public building?

9 A. It looked like a detention place.

10 Q. All right. Thank you. Were you taken to a room in that building?

11 A. To a room where the other prisoners were.

12 Q. Thank you. Did you remain in custody for the next month until

13 your exchange?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. All right. Now I want to get some details for the Trial Chamber

16 of that month that you spent in custody in Srebrenica.

17 Firstly, were the women prisoners all kept in one cell?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Were you kept in there with them?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Were you aware of any male prisoners in the building?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Where were they kept?

24 A. In the same building but in a different room.

25 Q. Okay. Was the room that the male prisoners were kept in close to

Page 2036

1 the room where the female prisoners were kept?

2 A. We weren't in the same room. The men were in one room and we

3 women were in another room.

4 Q. Thank you. Was there a lavatory nearby, close to both rooms where

5 the male prisoners were kept and the female prisoners were kept?

6 A. It was close by.

7 Q. Were you taken there from time to time, to the lavatory, by the

8 guards?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Did you have an opportunity to see where the door to the male

11 prisoners' cell was as you were taken from your room to the lavatory?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. How far was the male prisoners' door from the female prisoners'

14 door? What distance, approximately, if you can't tell us exactly?

15 A. Two or three steps.

16 Q. Thank you. On the occasions that you were taken to the lavatory,

17 were you able to see if guards had their own room?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And about how far away from your women's cell was the guards' room

20 located?

21 A. Also about two or three steps.

22 Q. Thank you. You've mentioned the presence of guards in the prison.

23 What ethnicity were those guards?

24 A. They were Muslims.

25 Q. Did you ever see them armed?

Page 2037

1 A. No.

2 Q. Were they in uniform?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. What colour uniform?

5 A. Green.

6 Q. Can you -- thinking back, can you recall any other feature or

7 insignia of their uniform, other than the fact that it was green?

8 A. They had black ribbons.

9 Q. Like the ribbons of the soldiers who captured you in Kostolomci

10 and escorted you back to Srebrenica, the same sort of black ribbons, or

11 were they different?

12 A. They had black ribbons.

13 Q. Okay. Fair enough. Now let's focus on the women's cell where you

14 were kept. About how many women were in there in custody with you?

15 A. About 20.

16 Q. Were you the youngest?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Was your mother in custody there with you?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. When you first arrived at the prison completing your walk from

21 Osmace, was your grandfather still with you, still a prisoner?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Was he placed in custody in the cell belonging to the men?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Were any of the women in custody with you wounded?

Page 2038

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Were the women in custody with you, were they all women of Serb

3 ethnicity?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. I don't need individual descriptions, but can you tell the Trial

6 Chamber what sort of women they were. Did they appear to be local peasant

7 women? Did they appear to be women from the town? Did they appear to be

8 soldiers? Can you comment on what sort of women they were?

9 A. These were local women.

10 Q. What ages did they range from? Were they all young? Were some of

11 them young, were some of them middle-aged, were some of them old; or was

12 it a combination of all three age groups?

13 A. Some of them were younger and some were middle-aged and some were

14 elderly.

15 Q. Thank you. I want you to give the Trial Chamber a picture of the

16 conditions inside the women's cell. Firstly, it was January 1993. Was it

17 cold?

18 A. It was warm because we had heating.

19 Q. And what sort of heating did you have? Tell the Trial Chamber of

20 the heating facilities that were given to you.

21 A. There was a stove.

22 Q. And how was the stove used? Was it used with firewood?

23 A. Yes, with firewood.

24 Q. Who brought the firewood, and how often?

25 A. In the morning, they would bring in two sacks.

Page 2039

1 Q. How long did that last?

2 A. All day.

3 Q. How many blankets did you have?

4 A. About four.

5 Q. You had four blankets?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. You personally had four blankets?

8 A. No, not me personally. All of us together.

9 Q. Thank you. Four blankets for about 20 women; is that what you're

10 saying?

11 A. There were four blankets in that room. There was a bench, and the

12 blankets were on the bench. We were not issued with blankets.

13 Q. Where did you sleep at night?

14 A. On the floor.

15 Q. Did you have anything underneath you, any blankets on top of you?

16 What was the bedding like?

17 Did you understand my question? I asked you about the bedding

18 when you slept at night. Did you have blankets, mattresses, pillows?

19 Describe to the Trial Chamber so that they understand and know what the

20 bedding was like at nights for you women.

21 A. We didn't have any.

22 Q. Was it warm at night?

23 A. I didn't have any bedding at all.

24 Q. Was it warm at night?

25 A. Yes.

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Page 2041

1 Q. In the month that you were in custody, were you able to wash?

2 A. No.

3 Q. And was it customary for the women to be escorted from the women's

4 cell to the lavatory about once a day?

5 A. They let us go to the toilet.

6 Q. All right. Now let's -- I want to ask you about the men's cell.

7 Did you ever go into the men's cell, as far as you can remember? Did you

8 ever go inside it?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Do you know a man called Ilija Ivanovic?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Did you ever see him in Srebrenica during that month that you were

13 in custody?

14 A. When I was going to the toilet, that's when I saw him.

15 MR. DI FAZIO: Would Your Honours just bear with me for a moment,

16 please.

17 Q. How did you know Ilija Ivanovic?

18 A. Because he was from my village.

19 Q. Were you scared at all during that month that you were in custody?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Did the guards ever come into your women's cell?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. How did you feel when that happened?

24 A. Terrible. I was frightened.

25 Q. How would you react when they came into the women's cell?

Page 2042

1 A. I was afraid.

2 Q. Did the guards ever mistreat the women in the sense of beating

3 them physically?

4 A. They didn't beat them, but they threatened them.

5 Q. What sort of threats were directed towards the women in the cell?

6 A. They said that they would kill them.

7 Q. What would you do when these threats were being uttered?

8 A. We were silent.

9 Q. Thank you. Now let's return to the men's cell. Apart from Ilija

10 Ivanovic, did you see any of the other men who were in the men's cell on

11 your way to the lavatory, when you were taken to the lavatory? Or was he

12 the only one that you can recall seeing?

13 A. My grandfather was there too, and I saw him.

14 Q. When you saw Ivanovic and your grandfather, did they have any

15 marks on them, any marks on their face?

16 A. They had been beaten.

17 Q. What could you see --

18 A. This person was wounded, you could see a mark on his face. And my

19 grandfather was black and blue all over his face. That's what I saw.

20 Q. From your position inside the women's cell, could you hear voices

21 from the men's cell?

22 A. When they cried.

23 Q. How often could you hear the men crying?

24 A. Every three hours.

25 Q. When you say they cried, do you mean that you could hear them

Page 2043

1 sobbing in the sense of tears, or do you mean in the sense of crying out

2 in pain, or perhaps both?

3 A. When they were being beaten, they were crying out in pain, because

4 they were suffering pain.

5 Q. When they were being beaten, could you hear any other noise, apart

6 from the -- apart from human voices, at the same time that they were being

7 beaten?

8 A. Yes. I could hear the Muslim soldiers laughing, and the Serbs who

9 were in the cell were crying and moaning.

10 Q. Okay. Let me ask you this: You've told the Trial Chamber that

11 you never went into the men's cell, so you don't know -- you couldn't see

12 what was happening in there.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Do you know if the Serb -- if the Muslim guards took in objects,

15 anything at all, sticks or guns or anything, into the men's cell? Did you

16 ever see that?

17 A. Bats or sticks.

18 Q. Let me return to that question I asked you a moment ago. Did you

19 hear anything during the course of these beatings, other than human

20 voices, other than cries of pain, other than the utterances of the Muslim

21 guards? Did you hear anything else? Let me rephrase the question. Could

22 you hear --

23 A. No.

24 Q. Okay. Could you hear bats being used?

25 MR. JONES: I don't know what that means, could you hear a bat

Page 2044

1 being used. My learned friend has already put --

2 MR. DI FAZIO: I'll withdraw the question.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: The objection is sustained.

4 MR. DI FAZIO: I'll withdraw the question.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.


7 Q. Now, you've mentioned that you heard sounds --

8 A. I heard shots.

9 Q. From the cell -- from the men's cell?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. How often did you hear that, or was it only on one occasion?

12 A. Every three hours.

13 Q. Now you've told us how often sounds of beatings were heard, every

14 three hours. On how many days in that month that you were kept in custody

15 did you hear the sounds of beatings?

16 A. Every three hours.

17 Q. Yes, I know, every three hours. But was that every three hours

18 once a week, was it every day of every week? That's what I want to know.

19 How often during the month.

20 A. Every day.

21 Q. Could you hear your grandfather's voice during the course of these

22 beatings?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Could you hear him crying out?

25 A. Yes.

Page 2045

1 Q. How often would you hear him crying out? Was it only on one or

2 two occasions? Was it more often?

3 A. More often.

4 Q. In the period of time that you were in custody, did you hear the

5 name Naser Oric mentioned?

6 MR. JONES: Well, Your Honour, that's completely an inappropriate

7 question. Really, my learned friend should asked what she heard, if she

8 heard names. She shouldn't put the name of this accused in this trial.

9 It's a clear suggestion that this witness should remember that name.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't see how your objection can be sustained.

11 She is being asked whether a particular name was mentioned.

12 MR. JONES: He could ask whether she heard any names, first of

13 all, and if she says no, then it would be clear that she hadn't heard the

14 name Naser Oric.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: That would be, perhaps, more correct. But let's

16 proceed that way, Mr. Di Fazio. You first ask her whether any names were

17 mentioned.

18 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. I'll do that.

19 Q. Did you hear any names mentioned in the month that you were in

20 custody?

21 A. Yes. They were mentioning the name of this man called Oric,

22 saying that he was in charge.

23 Q. Now, you say they were mentioning this. Who mentioned it?

24 A. Two Muslim soldiers.

25 Q. Can you remember in any more detail what they said?

Page 2046












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13 French transcripts correspond













Page 2047

1 A. When I was to be exchanged, that's when they said it.

2 Q. I see. So it was towards the end of your stay in Srebrenica.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And tell the Trial Chamber what was said to you, and how the name

5 Oric came up.

6 A. My mother and I were being taken to be exchanged.

7 Q. And what can you recall being said about Oric?

8 A. That he was in charge.

9 Q. Thank you. Let's turn to your exchange.

10 MR. DI FAZIO: Would Your Honours just bear with me for a moment.

11 Q. Just one more question on that. The person who said that Oric was

12 in charge, who was that? I don't mean their identity. But was it a guard

13 or someone else?

14 A. Those were other people.

15 Q. Were they soldiers?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Was this said on your way from the women's cell to some other

18 place?

19 A. I heard that while I was in the cell.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: More important, Mr. Di Fazio, is the context in

21 which this person, whoever it was, would mention the person who is in

22 charge, and precisely also by name.

23 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.

24 Q. Now, were you eventually exchanged, you and your mother?

25 A. At the Jadar, that's where we were exchanged, the two of us only.

Page 2048

1 Q. Thank you. And the other women prisoners remained in the cell, as

2 far as you are aware?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Thank you. Were you taken -- who took you from the women's cell

5 on the day that you were exchanged, or the day that the process of

6 exchange started?

7 A. The Muslim soldiers entered our cell and took us away.

8 Q. Took you where?

9 A. They took us on a truck.

10 Q. To where?

11 A. To a village called Vizjatra.

12 Q. Now, after you were taken from the cell and before you were put on

13 the truck, were you taken anywhere? Or was it the case that you were

14 simply taken from your cell and put on a truck?

15 A. They took us to a village and we spent a night there.

16 Q. All right. Thank you. Now let's cast your mind back to the

17 period of time on that day when the --

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Di Fazio, I hate doing this, but I have been

19 asked to give the witness a break, so instead of having the break at

20 10.30, we'll have the break now, if you don't mind. I'm sorry to

21 interrupt you so abruptly.

22 MR. DI FAZIO: It's no problem.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: It's not something I like doing, but I think we need

24 to do that straight away.

25 MR. DI FAZIO: I can also indicate that I'm getting close to the

Page 2049

1 end, so it's working out quite well.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. But Madam Trifunovic needs a short break.

3 MR. DI FAZIO: Certainly.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: So we'll have a break of 30 minutes, all right?

5 Thank you.

6 --- Recess taken at 10.12 a.m.

7 --- On resuming at 10.50 a.m.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: So, Madam Trifunovic, any time you need us to stop

9 and give you a break, a rest, please let me know. Could you follow what I

10 was saying? Were you receiving interpretation?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

13 Mr. Di Fazio, you may proceed, and conclude.

14 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. It won't be long now.

15 Q. Ms.. Trifunovic, I was asking you about the occasion when you were

16 being taken from the women's cell and being taken off for the process of

17 exchange. You've already told us that a guard came and took you from the

18 cell and that you were put on a truck. Now, during that time when the

19 guard came and the time when you were put on the truck, is that when you

20 heard the name Oric mentioned, or was it on some other occasion?

21 A. I heard the name mentioned when I was in detention. That's when I

22 heard his name.

23 Q. Can you recall who mentioned his name?

24 A. The Muslim soldiers.

25 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber if you only heard it once or it was

Page 2050

1 on more than one occasion?

2 A. Once.

3 Q. Can you remember what was said?

4 A. Something to do with the exchange.

5 Q. All right. So you heard his name mentioned while you were in

6 custody, and it was in the context of your exchange; do I understand you

7 correctly?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Okay. Now, just to finish up on this topic, there's nothing else

10 that you can recall about what was said when Mr. Oric's name was

11 mentioned, or do you just remember the fact that it was mentioned?

12 A. That's the only thing I remember.

13 Q. All right. Okay. We'll leave this topic and we'll move on to

14 your exchange.

15 Was your mother entrusted with taking a note to Serb soldiers?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. As far as you were aware, did she, in fact, do that?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Who entrusted her with the note to take to the Serb soldiers? Who

20 gave it to her?

21 A. The Muslim soldiers.

22 Q. Thank you. And did she leave you for a while in Jadar and go off

23 on her mission with the note?

24 A. That was that day, and she took the message across while I

25 remained with the Muslim soldiers at Jadar.

Page 2051

1 Q. And did she return to you that day, or was it the next day?

2 A. The same day. She left in the morning and came back in the

3 afternoon.

4 Q. Were you eventually exchanged?

5 A. The next day.

6 Q. Both you and your mother?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Who were you exchanged for; can you recall?

9 A. We were exchanged, the two of us who were still alive, and we were

10 exchanged for three bodies of Muslim soldiers.

11 Q. From the point of time that you were captured until you were

12 exchanged, in that month period of time, did anyone other than Muslim

13 soldiers guard you, issue instructions to you, tell you what to do?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Was your grandfather eventually exchanged?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Do you know a place called Uzice Hospital?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Was your grandfather ever taken to Uzice Hospital?

20 A. Not before he was captured. It was after he was captured.

21 Q. Thank you. And how did he find his way to Uzice Hospital?

22 A. He was exchanged at a later stage. He got sick and an ambulance

23 took him there.

24 Q. That's what I wanted to know. Your grandfather underwent the

25 same -- similar exchange process that you and your mother underwent, and

Page 2052












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13 French transcripts correspond













Page 2053

1 then he was taken to hospital; is that what you say?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Can you remember --

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. -- about how long after your exchange that your grandfather was

6 exchanged? It doesn't have to be exact.

7 A. Several days later.

8 Q. Did you see him in Uzice Hospital, or indeed, did you see him at

9 any time --

10 A. No.

11 Q. -- after the exchange?

12 A. Yes, about twice.

13 Q. How did he look when you saw him?

14 A. He was emaciated and all black and blue.

15 Q. Did he eventually die?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. About how long after his exchange did he die?

18 A. He was exchanged several days later. He lived on for a couple of

19 days and then he died.

20 Q. Did you ever hear of the fate of your grandmother?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Thank you very much, Ms. Trifunovic.

23 MR. DI FAZIO: I have no further questions, if Your Honours

24 please.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Di Fazio.

Page 2054

1 Madam Trifunovic, I'm now going to pass you on to Mr. Jones, who

2 is defending Mr. Oric in this trial. He will be asking you a series of

3 questions. Thank you.

4 Mr. Jones.

5 MR. JONES: Thank you, Your Honour.

6 Cross-examined by Mr. Jones:

7 Q. Ms. Trifunovic, this morning my learned friend suggested to you on

8 a couple of occasions that you were 12 at the time of your capture. It's

9 right, isn't it, that you were actually 11, 11 and a half at that time?

10 You were born in July 1981; that's correct, isn't it?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. So 11. And you're now --

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. -- a mother -- you're now a mother with two children, I believe.

15 These events took place a long time ago, and I imagine they seemed -- my

16 apologies, I'll slow down. They must seem a distant memory to you; is

17 that right?

18 A. Well, yes.

19 Q. Now, over the last 11, nearly 12 years since these events, I take

20 it you've spoken to people about these events, in particular your mother

21 who went to Srebrenica with you.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And with other people, I imagine, as well; for example, your

24 husband.

25 A. Yes.

Page 2055

1 Q. Now, you were from -- at the time you were living in Kostolomci.

2 That's near Skelani, isn't it?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Have you since been told or learnt that you were captured on the

5 16th of January, 1993? Because you weren't sure about the date before.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Now, I want you to bear in mind when I ask you some questions

8 today that you're to tell us what you yourself remember, difficult though

9 that may be given the distance of time, and not tell us what other people

10 have told you about events, but what you saw as an 11-year-old girl back

11 then. Is that clear?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Now, a couple of questions relating to Kostolomci. You mentioned

14 going to a bakery when you ran away, belonging to your uncle. Was his

15 name Drago?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. You also mentioned that you last saw your grandmother when you ran

18 from your house. Is it right that you last saw her when you were by

19 Milenko's house, Milenko being a neighbour?

20 A. I saw her as I was running away. Near Milenko's stable, we parted

21 ways, and we never saw each other again.

22 Q. Thank you. Now, you've told us that on the way to Srebrenica and

23 subsequently in the prison that threats were made to you and to others.

24 It's right to say, isn't it, that those threats were never carried out;

25 they remained just words.

Page 2056

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. When you arrived in Srebrenica, you came by foot, I take it, from

3 Osmace.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. As you came into the town, did you see thousands of Muslim

6 civilians living out on the streets in Srebrenica?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Do you recall the conditions under which they were living, namely,

9 having fires outside, living on the streets? Is that something you

10 recall?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Do you recall their appearing to be in a pretty bad state, those

13 people you saw in Srebrenica?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Now, you've told us that you spent one month in the prison, in the

16 same room with about 20 women. So is it right that that would have been

17 from one or two days after the 16th of January --

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. -- and so you would have stayed there until around the 18th or

20 19th of February, 1993.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Now, can you tell us the names of some, at least, of the women who

23 you spent that month with?

24 A. I only know that one of those women was called Milena.

25 Q. Do you recall a Milenija Mitrovic? Was she there with you?

Page 2057

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. So apart from Milenija and Milena, can you tell us the names of

3 any of the other 18 or so women who you say you spent one month with?

4 A. No, I can't.

5 Q. Well, try, if you may. Can you not remember any other names of

6 any of those other women?

7 A. No. No.

8 Q. Can you tell us anything about them, about what they were wearing

9 or where they were from?

10 A. From Bosnia, from the villages.

11 Q. And that's all you remember of those women?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Do you remember a little Serb boy called Branko who came to the

14 prison with a lady cook who brought the food?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Do you remember a woman called Behara with whom you stayed in

17 Srebrenica?

18 A. No.

19 Q. It's right, isn't it, that once you arrived in Srebrenica, nobody

20 touched a hair on your head or that of your mother or any of the women.

21 None of them were physically mistreated in any way.

22 A. No.

23 Q. You had a stove in your cell for warmth, and you were given food

24 every day, I think it's correct to say, bread and beans. It's right,

25 isn't it, also, that you each had a blanket.

Page 2058

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Now, you referred to men being beaten in the prison, and you

3 said --

4 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. Let me interrupt you, Mr. Jones.

5 Ms. Trifunovic, can you explain to me how you can state now that

6 each one of you had a blanket when previously you said that there were

7 only four blankets there for all of you? I mean, I can't tie up the two

8 statements together, because they seem to be contradictory.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We were thirsty. Four blankets in

10 that room, and the 20 of us had to share those four blankets. That's what

11 I was trying to say.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.


14 Q. Do you recall making a statement in July 2000 to investigators of

15 this Tribunal?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. You may not have it in front of you. A copy may be provided. But

18 for the moment, I'm looking at 02 -- ERN 02170348 of the English version,

19 page 5 of 8, paragraph 3, which says: "We each had one blanket."

20 So you're saying that's not correct, it's not true that you each

21 had one blanket?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Very well.

24 A. No.

25 Q. Now, you've told us that you heard beatings of the men in the

Page 2059

1 prison every three hours, and you were very clear and deliberate about

2 that. You said that it was every three hours for the month --

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. -- you were imprisoned. Did you have a watch at this time?

5 A. No.

6 Q. So not having a watch, an 11-year-old girl in these conditions,

7 which you describe as frightening, how can you be so categorical that on

8 the dot, every three hours, men were being beaten for this period of one

9 month? How did you be so sure?

10 A. Because this is something that I heard.

11 Q. So you're absolutely sure that every three hours exactly you heard

12 these beatings --

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. -- and that that went on for one month. That's your evidence.

15 A. Yes. Yes.

16 Q. Very well. Now, you've mentioned seeing that your grandfather was

17 black and blue. It's right, isn't it, that he was beaten before he was

18 brought to the prison in Srebrenica.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. You also mentioned Ilija Ivanovic, who you said you knew as he was

21 from your village. He's, in fact, from Kosici, isn't he, rather than from

22 your village?

23 A. Well, it's a bit further along the road, but it's still part of

24 the same village.

25 Q. You didn't yourself actually see anyone being beaten, did you?

Page 2060

1 A. No. But I heard them being beaten.

2 Q. So you don't know who beat them, whether they were men, women,

3 civilians, soldiers, Serbs, Muslims --

4 A. The Muslim soldiers.

5 Q. Well, you didn't see that, though, did you?

6 A. The Muslim soldiers, that's who they were.

7 Q. Now, is it your evidence that you slept at the prison every night

8 of your captivity, from the 18th of January until the 18th of February?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And then you've told us you were exchanged. You said in your

11 statement given to the investigators of this Tribunal that your house was

12 destroyed during the attack of 16th January 1993. I'm looking at the

13 ERN 02170349: "Our house was completely destroyed during the attack."

14 That's not true, is it, because you went back the next day?

15 A. It was destroyed. Everything was destroyed, with the exception of

16 one room.

17 Q. But when you went back on the next day after you had run away, you

18 said how you went there and there were -- I think you said that -- let me

19 put it a different way. You went back to the house and entered it, and it

20 hadn't been destroyed on that occasion at all.

21 A. Everything had been destroyed, with the exception of one room.

22 Q. Now, you've told us today that shortly before you were exchanged

23 you were told that someone called Oric was in charge. Am I right in

24 understanding that to mean that he was in charge of the exchange which was

25 about to take place, that that's how you understood it?

Page 2061

1 A. This is something that I heard in Srebrenica prior to the

2 exchange, from other soldiers who said that he was in charge.

3 Q. In charge of the exchange. All right. And at the time the name

4 Oric didn't mean anything to you at all, did it? There's no particular

5 reason why it would have stuck in your mind. Sorry, did you understand my

6 question? We seem to have a problem.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: During video-conferencing, this happens. So just

8 wait. Eventually she'll get the question.

9 Could you please repeat the question to make sure she does.


11 Q. When you heard the name Oric, that's not a name which meant

12 anything to you at all, did it? It was not a name that you had heard

13 before for which there was any reason why it should stick in your mind.

14 A. Well, it did stick in my mind for some reason. It's something I

15 heard prior to the exchange, and I still remember it.

16 Q. Okay. Now, you saw the guards in the prison, I imagine, every

17 day. Do you remember the names of any of those guards?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Do you remember the names of the cooks who prepared the food for

20 the prisoners?

21 A. No.

22 Q. And apart from the few detainees who you mentioned, do you

23 remember the names of any of the other people who you encountered when you

24 were in Srebrenica?

25 A. No.

Page 2062

1 Q. Do you remember a one-armed man called Zele?

2 A. No.

3 Q. So just so we're absolutely clear, you spent a month with 20-odd

4 women; there were cooks, guards, and other people. You remember

5 practically none of those names, but you say that you do remember the name

6 Oric, from 12 years ago, 11, 12 years ago.

7 A. Yes. I just heard that he was in charge.

8 Q. The fact is, isn't it, that the name Oric has been something -- is

9 a name you've been told since you were released by Serbs, and you've been

10 told to mention that name in relation to your detention, and that you

11 didn't hear the name at the time.

12 A. I hadn't heard his name before I was detained, but I heard it

13 while I was in detention.

14 Q. All right. I'd like to refer you to your statement from 2000 to

15 the investigators, and it's not necessarily to put a copy in front of you

16 for the moment. But just for the record, it's ERN 02170345, second

17 paragraph. And there you say: "In 1993, I was interviewed by the police

18 in Bajina Basta, Serbia, concerning the attack on my village and my

19 imprisonment."

20 Now, do you recall that interview?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. All right.

23 MR. JONES: Now I'm going to ask if the witness can be shown a

24 copy of that -- a note of that interview, and there are copies for the

25 Court. And the ERN is RR321946 in the original. And the court officer in

Page 2063

1 Belgrade has a copy of that document.

2 That note, again, for the record, is an interview by the

3 Republika Srpska, Minister of Internal Affairs, public security station,

4 dated 5th of February, 1993.

5 Q. Do you have a copy of that note in front of you, Ms. Trifunovic?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Now, firstly, that statement correctly records your personal

8 details at the time, doesn't it? Your parents' names, Nikola and Zivana,

9 where you lived. First paragraph.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Now, I'm going to read a part of that note, and I refer you to the

12 first four sentences of the second paragraph, and it reads: "When our

13 village was attacked on January 16, 1993, I was in the house of my

14 grandmother. When we heard shots, Grandmother and I ran out of the house

15 and started running away. Somewhere around Milenko's house we split, and

16 I ran to Drago's bakery where I spent the night."

17 Now, that's the same as what you've told us today, isn't it,

18 Drago's bakery and leaving your grandmother at Milenko's house.

19 A. No. We separated on the way, near his barn.

20 Q. All right. But the gist of it is what you've told us today.

21 I'm going to read another section of that note, further down in

22 the same paragraph: "When we arrived to the prison in Srebrenica, I saw

23 that there were also Stojanka from Vizovici, Milena and Stana Mitrovic,

24 Milenija, Milka from Kusic, Andja from Novo Selo, who had already been in

25 prison for 4 to 5 months; Danica from Kusic, and some Dostana with her

Page 2064

1 daughter-in-law and two children, all of them from Bjelovac. I also saw

2 some Jelka and an older woman with grey hair. There were 15 women in that

3 prison, and a young boy, Branko, from Zarkovici. As for men, I saw Mico,

4 Ilija from Cosici, and Stanko from Kusic there."

5 Now stopping there, it's right, isn't it, that at that time you

6 remembered a great deal about the people who you saw from Srebrenica.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Your memory of events, then, was much fresher on the 5th of

9 February than it is now, I take it?

10 A. Yes. Yes.

11 Q. Now, further down, you refer to some other people.

12 "While I was in Srebrenica I met Fikret, a prison guard, and

13 some Krdjo who drove a small blue truck. I also met cooks, Mirfeta,

14 Zumra, and Jaca, as well as some Zele who either didn't have an arm or he

15 was wounded in the right arm, because his right sleeve was always in the

16 pocket or hanging. He is short and has long brown/black hair."

17 Now, does that refresh your memory as to some of the people who

18 you saw in Srebrenica?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. The fact is, isn't it, that when you gave this statement, you were

21 asked to remember as many people as you possibly could, even if you could

22 only give a first name or a nickname or some physical characteristic. And

23 you mentioned everyone who you could possibly think of in connection with

24 your detention; isn't that right?

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Could you answer the question, please,

Page 2065

1 Ms. Trifunovic?

2 MR. JONES: I'll repeat the question, if that will assist.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, please, Mr. Jones.


5 Q. When you gave the statement, the people who were interviewing you

6 were very keen, were they not, to get you to mention every person you

7 could think of who you had seen in Srebrenica, even if you could only

8 mention a first name or a nickname or a physical characteristic. And you

9 told them every name you could think of.

10 A. I can't remember now.

11 Q. It's right, isn't it, looking at the statement, that you never

12 mentioned Naser Oric on that occasion, when you mentioned all these other

13 names. And you can look at your statement if that would assist you. It's

14 right, isn't it, that his name is no where there in that official note.

15 Can you confirm that for us?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. The reason his name isn't there, isn't it, is because you hadn't

18 heard of Oric when you gave this interview. You heard his name

19 afterwards, after your release, from Serbs.

20 A. Yes. From the Muslims who said I was to be exchanged. They said

21 he was in charge.

22 Q. Let's look at your note again. The note also states the

23 following: "I stayed in prison for two days, and then I went to sleep at

24 some Behara's apartment."

25 It's right, isn't it, that in fact you only stayed in the prison

Page 2066

1 for two days and not one month as you've been telling us today. Could you

2 please answer the question, Ms. Trifunovic? And remember, you're under

3 oath.

4 A. I know that.

5 Q. Would you please answer the question, then?

6 A. That's not correct. I was in the prison all the time.

7 Q. Let's look at the date on this document, and it's in two places,

8 the 5th of February, 1993, you'll see in the top left-hand column, and

9 it's repeated at the top: "On the 5th of February, 1993, we had an

10 informative interview with Trifunovic, Svetlana, daughter of Nikola and

11 Zivana."

12 The fact is you were being interviewed by the Ministry of Internal

13 Affairs of the Republika Srpska on the 5th of February, and not in prison,

14 as you've told us today, isn't it?

15 You can give us a truthful answer, Ms. Trifunovic. If you want to

16 change your answer as to how long you spent in the prison, then now is the

17 time to do it.

18 A. I was imprisoned for a month, and I was in prison. I didn't go

19 anywhere else from the prison.

20 Q. Well, if you look at this note again, details are included there

21 of Drago's bakery and the rough area where you left your grandmother, all

22 of which you've agreed is what occurred. Why would police or the Ministry

23 of Internal Affairs of Republika Srpska invent the fact that you were --

24 MR. DI FAZIO: That's not for this witness to answer.

25 MR. JONES: She may have an answer.

Page 2067

1 JUDGE AGIUS: No. And also, it's taking it for granted that this

2 was invented. I'm going to take the witness in my hands for a while.

3 MR. JONES: Your Honour, before -- so I don't forget, may this be

4 made an exhibit, a Defence exhibit.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, it will be, definitely, Mr. Jones.

6 Ms. Trifunovic, do you remember being interviewed by someone from

7 Republika Srpska Ministry of Internal Affairs on the 5th of January, 1993.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: And on that occasion, did you make a statement? Did

10 you accept to make a statement?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Was this statement put in writing, taken in writing

13 as you were answering the questions that were being put to you?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I answered the questions that were

15 put to me by them.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: But was there anyone, say, with a tape recorder or

17 with a typewriter or whatever, or with a notebook taking down notes of

18 what you were answering?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was no one there with a

20 machine. They were just asking me questions without any machines or

21 anything.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: And were you ever given a copy of your statement for

23 you to sign and to read?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: On that same day or later?

Page 2068

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Later.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: And did you sign this statement?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: And this is a -- who gave you a copy of the

5 statement, the officers of Republika Srpska, Ministry of Internal Affairs,

6 or the Office of the Prosecution of this Tribunal?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Prosecutor's Office, yes.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Therefore, let's make this clear. You made

9 statements, you gave statements on two occasions; once to the Office of

10 the Prosecutor and once to the officers of Republika Srpska, Ministry of

11 the Internal Affairs; is that correct? On two separate occasions.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: The Office of the Prosecution, did they give you a

14 copy of your statement and ask you to sign it?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: And did you sign it?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Now, the officers of the Republika Srpska Ministry

19 of Internal Affairs, did they give you your statement and ask you to sign

20 it?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They gave it to me.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: And did you sign it?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: So basically we should have two statements signed by

25 you; one which was given to you by the Ministry of Internal Affairs of

Page 2069

1 Republika Srpska and one by the Office of the Prosecutor. You signed

2 twice, in other words; is that correct?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Now, going back to the interview you had with the

5 Ministry of Internal Affairs of Republika Srpska, do you remember saying

6 to the person who was interviewing you that you stayed in prison for two

7 days and then you went to sleep at some Behara's apartment. Do you

8 remember saying this to the person who interviewed you from the Ministry

9 of Internal Affairs of Republika Srpska?

10 Witness, did you hear my question? My question was: Do you at

11 any time during the interview you had with the officer from the Ministry

12 of Internal Affairs of Republika Srpska tell him that you spent in prison

13 the first two days, and then I went to sleep in some Behara's apartment.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's not correct.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: So, in other words, what is included in this

16 statement, in this document, is -- you never mentioned.

17 I didn't hear your answer. Is it a lie? Is it invented by the

18 person who prepared this statement, or is it a reflection of your own

19 words, and you have now forgotten all about it.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have forgotten. This is not

21 correct. I spent that entire time in prison.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you know a certain Behara?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you remember mentioning to the person who

25 interviewed you from the Ministry of Internal Affairs the names of the

Page 2070

1 cooks, Mirfeta, Zumra, and Jaca, and as well as that of Zele? Or is this

2 invented too, in the statement?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Those names are not invented. These

4 are people I heard about and saw, because they brought us food.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: So did you mention to the person who interviewed you

6 from the Ministry of Internal Affairs the names of Stojanka from Vizovici?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: So this is invented by the person who drew up this

9 statement?

10 I'm trying to get you to help us, Ms. Trifunovic, because we want

11 to make sure whether this statement is reliable or not. Did you ever

12 mention the name Stojanka from Vizovici to the person who was drawing up

13 this statement? And if you didn't, how do you account for the fact that

14 it is included in this statement?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't mention that name.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Milena and Stana Mitrovic. Did you

17 mention the names of Milena Mitrovic and Stana Mitrovic to the person who

18 was interviewing you from the person from Ministry of Internal Affairs of

19 Republika Srpska?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Did you mention the name of Milenija to the person

22 who was interviewing you?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Did you mention the name Milka from Kusic.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

Page 2071

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Did you mention the name of Andja from Novo Selo?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: So this is also included here, even though you did

4 not mention her name; correct?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Did you know Andja -- did you meet there Andja from

7 Novo Selo?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Have you ever heard that name before, Andja, from

10 Novo Selo?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Were you aware of any other woman in Srebrenica, in

13 the prison in Srebrenica when you were kept also, that had already been

14 there for four or five months? Try to remember, please.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't hear your question. Could

16 you please repeat it.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: I am so sorry. Were you aware that there was at

18 least one woman in the prison with you in Srebrenica that had already been

19 there in the prison for four or five months?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wasn't aware of that, no.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Did you mention the name of Danica from Kusic to the

22 interviewer?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you remember mentioning the name Dostana from

25 Bjelovac to the interviewer. This Dostana had with her her

Page 2072

1 daughter-in-law and two children.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know that. In that prison

3 where I was, there weren't any such people. There might have been there

4 before I arrived or after I had left.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, all right. Do you remember mentioning the name

6 of Jelka to the interviewer, a certain Jelka?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: And do you remember mentioning an older woman with

9 grey hair? But there was no name mentioned here. Do you remember telling

10 the interviewer about another woman, an old woman, an elderly woman, with

11 grey hair?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you remember mentioning to the interviewer a

14 certain Mico?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember that.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you remember mentioning to the interviewer Ilija

17 from Cosici -- Kosici or Cosici.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: And do you remember mentioning Stanko from Kusic?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I don't remember.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: At this point I give her back to you. It was

22 important for us, Mr. Jones and Mr. Di Fazio, since the witness is not

23 present here in the courtroom, a question of conduct, demeanour,

24 et cetera, becomes important.

25 MR. JONES: Thank you. I'm much obliged, Your Honour.

Page 2073

1 JUDGE AGIUS: The last question, before I pass her over.

2 You told me that apart from the copy of the statement that you

3 signed for the Office of the Prosecutor of this Tribunal, you were also

4 given a copy of the interview or the statement you made to

5 Republika Srpska Ministry of Internal Affairs and that you signed that as

6 well. Do you have a copy of it?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. When I was in Belgrade on the

8 16th of January, yes, I was given a copy, but not after that.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Who gave you a copy of it on the 16th of January?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the 16th of January, no one gave

11 me anything. But rather now, on the 16th, when I was there, in November,

12 when I was in Belgrade, that's when they gave me one. But not before.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Who gave it to you?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Now when I came to Belgrade for an

15 interview, the 16th of November, they gave me a photocopy. But before

16 when I was in Bosnia and before I got married, no one gave me anything.


18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Though I did sign some things.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, but that's for the purpose of -- I don't think

20 we can get further than this, unless we can get a clarification from you,

21 Mr. Di Fazio.

22 MR. DI FAZIO: I have questions in re-examination, and I will

23 cover all of these. We certainly intend to do that.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, all right. Thank you.

25 Mr. Jones.

Page 2074

1 MR. JONES: May I just say, Your Honour, that we certainly have

2 not received that document signed by Ms. Trifunovic. We found it by our

3 own devices, and that may be a matter which we need some strong -- I'll

4 make some strong marks about subsequently.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: We'll see. I mean, the pleasure is yet to come.

6 MR. JONES: Just two final matters.

7 Firstly, could this be given a Defence exhibit number.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. This is being tendered and admitted in

9 evidence and marked as Defence Exhibit D -- what's the next number, 81?

10 D81. Thank you.

11 Mr. Jones.

12 MR. JONES: Thank you.

13 Q. Just one final question, Ms. Trifunovic. In response to a

14 question by His Honour as to whether you knew Behara, you said no, you

15 don't know Behara; is that right?

16 A. No. Yes.

17 Q. You don't know Behara.

18 A. No.

19 Q. You've also told us how you were in Belgrade recently, on the 16th

20 of November of this year. Do you recall that you were proofed by the

21 Office of the Prosecutor in relation to this case?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And do you recall saying to the Prosecutor, and I quote, or I

24 summarise: "I spent one night at Behara's place in Jadar, prior to being

25 exchanged."

Page 2075

1 A. Yes, I did say that, and that is true.

2 Q. So a moment ago when you said you didn't know Behara, that was

3 simply not true.

4 A. I had not known her before that time. I had never seen her or met

5 her. I had never even heard of her before I was captured.

6 MR. JONES: I have no further questions, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Jones, and thank you for the

8 cooperation that you have provided, because situations can become very

9 difficult sometimes, and I appreciate your cooperation and your help.

10 Mr. Di Fazio.

11 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you, if Your Honours please.

12 Re-examined by Mr. Di Fazio:

13 Q. Now, let's deal with Behara, shall we? You met Behara in Jadar,

14 just before you were exchanged; is that correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. You had never met her before that; correct?

17 A. Correct.

18 Q. Have you ever met her since?

19 A. Never.

20 Q. Thank you. So you don't know Behara, but you met someone called

21 Behara for one night, prior to your exchange; is that correct?

22 A. Yes, that is correct. But I had never heard of or seen a person

23 named Behara before I was captured.

24 Q. Thank you. Could you please look at the statement that you were

25 asked questions about -- well, let me rephrase that. Can you please look

Page 2076

1 at the piece of paper that's been marked as D81.

2 MR. JONES: Your Honour, I don't know if it's necessary for my

3 learned friend to adopt this rather abrasive and style of referring to

4 it's a piece of paper. It's a Defence Exhibit, and if Mr. Di Fazio would

5 be courteous enough to refer to it as such then that would help --

6 JUDGE AGIUS: The Trial Chamber will decide whether it's just a

7 piece of paper or whether it's a statement or isn't because it's not

8 signed by her. It's purported to be a statement.

9 MR. JONES: Official note.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. So no arguments in the presence of the

11 witness, please.

12 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

13 Q. Look at the official note, D81, that you have before you. At the

14 bottom there appears to be a signature. Is that your signature? At the

15 bottom there appears to be a signature. Is that your signature?

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Is she seeing this document, just to start with?

17 MR. DI FAZIO: I asked her to be ...

18 JUDGE AGIUS: I want to make sure that you have this document in

19 front of you, Ms. Trifunovic, because from here I cannot verify that.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do have it in front of me.

21 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: And could you then read out to me, at the top right

23 corner, there are -- there is a number, starting with an RR. Could you

24 read out that number to me, please. Top right.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The number?

Page 2077

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Could you read it out.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 321946.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, thank you.

4 Go ahead, Mr. Di Fazio.

5 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

6 Q. Now, please look at that document that His Honour just asked you

7 about. Go down to the bottom of the page --

8 MR. JONES: Your Honours, if I may. I'm sorry to rise to my

9 feet. But in circumstances where the Prosecution has apparently presented

10 this document to the witness and she signed it and adopted it as hers,

11 this method of proceeding, of showing that a signature, which doesn't

12 purport to be hers anyway, it's obviously the signature of the person who

13 took the note, isn't hers. To make a great demonstration, but it's not

14 her statement. We know it's in the note, but apparently the Prosecution

15 has taken -- has actually shown it to her and she's signed it. And we

16 haven't been provided with a copy of the document. And frankly it's

17 scandalous the way the Prosecution is treating this document, which is

18 from their own file. It's from the rules of the road file. So really,

19 Your Honour, I object to this manner of --

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's proceed. We do need -- I didn't put the

21 question myself because it really wasn't my business, but I think the

22 Prosecution has every right to make sure that this signature here is not

23 the witness' signature, which would confirm, then, that this statement was

24 made or was drawn up as a note of an interview by someone else.

25 MR. JONES: Your Honour, but may I assist that we be provided with

Page 2078

1 a copy of the document, this document, as presented to Ms. Trifunovic and

2 signed by her in Belgrade, and never to this day disclosed to the Defence.

3 MR. DI FAZIO: I'm talking about D81.

4 MR. JONES: But this was apparently presented to her and she

5 signed it in Belgrade when proofed by Mr. Di Fazio.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: But we are talking of D81, the same document that

7 you just tendered.

8 MR. JONES: Indeed. Apparently, she signed it when it was shown

9 to her by the Prosecutor.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't know. I don't know.

11 Yes, Mr. Di Fazio, please proceed.

12 MR. DI FAZIO: I'm sorry, I lost my place. Yes, thank you.

13 Q. Now, is that your signature at the bottom of the page of D81?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Look at it. Look at it, Ms. Trifunovic. Just look at the

16 document, at the bottom of the page. Look at the signature. Look at the

17 writing there. Put your eyes -- run your eyes over the handwriting and

18 listen carefully to my question. It's a very simple question. Look at

19 the writing at the bottom of the page. Now, my question is this, very

20 simple: Is that your signature?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Very well. Thank you. Now, when you gave this statement, when

23 you gave this statement, was your mother present?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Where was she?

Page 2079

1 A. Home.

2 Q. You were, in February of 1993 - I don't want to mislead you; I

3 think Mr. Jones pointed out - 11 and a half; is that correct? 11 and a

4 half years old in 1993, February; is that right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber how it was that you made your way

7 to the police station, or wherever it was that you gave this statement?

8 A. The police took me there, to the police station at Bajina Basta.

9 Q. And if they took you there, where was your mother at that time?

10 A. She was at home.

11 Q. Can you recall if she asked to come along with you?

12 A. They said there was no need.

13 Q. Okay. Could you look at the statement again, please. Mr. Jones

14 pointed out to you portions of the statement where you said that you were

15 not in prison. Do you recall his questions on that? Do you recall his

16 questions about that topic?

17 A. I do.

18 Q. In one -- towards the end of your statement, you say -- not at the

19 very end, about four-fifths of the way down, you said words to this

20 effect: "I could move around freely, and then I saw them beating men."

21 Can you see that?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Did you ever see men beaten anywhere other than in prison, or hear

24 mean beaten anywhere other than in prison, in the cells that you've told

25 us about?

Page 2080

1 A. No. I only heard that in prison while I was detained.

2 Q. Thank you.

3 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours would just bear with me for a

4 moment.

5 I understand that the Registry has the Office of the Prosecutor's

6 statement in the Registry -- in the location at which this witness is now

7 placed, and I would ask that it be produced to her, in particular the

8 front page of the statement. That's the Office of the Prosecutor's

9 statement taken on the 22nd and the 23rd of July, 2000.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Do you have any objection to that, Mr. Jones?

11 I suppose not.

12 MR. JONES: No. We, in fact, arranged for it to be available to

13 her.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I want to make sure that Mr. Siller is

15 making this document available to the witness. And just to -- for the

16 record, yes, if we could zoom out in a way in which we could at least see

17 on the monitor a glimpse of this document.

18 THE REGISTRAR: [In Belgrade] Your Honours, I can confirm that the

19 witness has the document.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Question to Mr. Siller: Mr. Siller, does the

21 witness have this document in front of her? Is the document that we are

22 seeing on the monitor the document that we are talking about?

23 THE REGISTRAR: [In Belgrade] Your Honours, I can say that we have

24 shown her the document in B/C/S. She has it in front of her.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

Page 2081

1 Mr. Di Fazio, please proceed.

2 MR. DI FAZIO: I'm afraid, if Your Honours please, it's not the

3 document in B/C/S that I want. It's the English version, if the English

4 version is there. Because the document in B/C/S won't be signed

5 JUDGE AGIUS: The question is going to be on the signature,

6 obviously.

7 Mr. Siller, please give the witness a copy of the English text of

8 this statement and not the one in B/C/S.

9 THE REGISTRAR: [In Belgrade] Your Honours, the witness now has the

10 English copy.

11 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: And if it is necessary or possible - I don't know

13 whether technically we can do this - because I had -- you have actually

14 basically anticipated what I was going to do. If we could have on the

15 ELMO here juxtaposed the signature that appears on the statement to the

16 Prosecutor and the signature on the statement, let's call it statement,

17 which is now D81 in the B/C/S version, if we could have them on the ELMO

18 and make sure that the witness can see both of them, and if you could

19 enlarge both signatures, it would even make it easier for all of us.

20 MR. JONES: Your Honour, there are two concerns I have about this.

21 Firstly, Ms. Trifunovic was 11 years old when she signed this. That's one

22 matter. But more fundamentally, Mr. Di Fazio has a copy of this document,

23 as I understand it, in the Prosecutor's possession, which he presented to

24 the witness and which she signed when he was in Belgrade. We should see

25 that signature surely.

Page 2082

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, okay. We'll probably see that, too. But I

2 assure you, Mr. Jones, that neither you nor myself nor anyone else,

3 including Mr. Di Fazio, anticipated that this was the signature of the

4 witness. I mean, that is the last thing, I think, that all of us, or any

5 one of us could have thought. So at this point in time, once the witness

6 has stated twice, at least, that this is her signature, I mean, obviously

7 it begs the other question of why she has two signatures, one in Cyrillic

8 and one which is not in Cyrillic, and why they present themselves so

9 different, the one from the other.

10 MR. JONES: Certainly. It's just to say that we should see the

11 signed copy recently signed by the witness which the Prosecution has and

12 hasn't disclosed to us.

13 MR. DI FAZIO: Unless I'm labouring -- I'm not trying to argue

14 here at all, but I just want to understand where Mr. Jones gets that

15 notion from.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Because purportedly that has a third signature. And

17 we will look into that as well.

18 MR. JONES: It came from her evidence. She said that when she met

19 the Prosecutor in Belgrade, she had been shown this document and signed it

20 again. This document is referred to in the proofing notes of

21 Mr. Di Fazio. No doubt Mr. Di Fazio presented this document to the

22 witness, she signed it, adopted it, and we never received it.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes. You are perfectly right, Mr. Jones.

24 MR. JONES: That's what I'm complaining of.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: You're perfectly right. And if there is a

Page 2083

1 signature, an additional signature on that document, we want to see it.

2 MR. DI FAZIO: I understand that. And I now understand what

3 Mr. Jones is -- the point that he is making.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: The question is you're too slow today, Mr. Di Fazio,

5 because I understood Mr. Jones much --

6 MR. DI FAZIO: Because I can tell Your Honours that I will be

7 unable to produce anything signed by this witness to the Defence in

8 Belgrade recently. If I had, it would be here.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: So, in other words, are you stating that she never

10 signed again this document?

11 MR. DI FAZIO: That's right.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: So there you are, Mr. Jones.

13 MR. JONES: It was presented to her, and it's clear for the

14 proofing notes. And she said today that she had signed it, so it's a

15 matter of --

16 JUDGE AGIUS: We'll ask her again.

17 Anyway, let me see on the ELMO the two signatures juxtaposed,

18 please. Is it technically impossible?

19 Usher, I am pretty sure there is -- what is the problem? Put them

20 next. No. Why are you complicating it so much? If you put this part

21 next to this part, you have the two --

22 MR. DI FAZIO: May I approach and assist the usher?

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, please. You then have them one next to the

24 other. And put them in the center, please. And let's have the

25 technicians -- no, you put them -- approach them, the one to the other, as

Page 2084

1 much as you can, please. We don't need to see the words "signature"

2 and "date." So lift that up, lift it up, further up. No, one next to the

3 other. Lift and put them in the center, please. All right. A little bit

4 further to the left, if you can. Yes. That should be enough.

5 Yes, Mr. Di Fazio. And, first of all, I want to make sure that

6 Ms. Trifunovic can see this.

7 THE REGISTRAR: [In Belgrade] Yes, she can --

8 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm told there may be problems on the other side.

9 The witness can see what we have on the monitor now. What I suggest is

10 the following: Now that even Mr. Siller has seen the two signatures that

11 we are talking about on the monitor, could he please put the two

12 signatures juxtaposed, one next to the other, in front of the witness,

13 because we are going to ask her questions on these two signatures. I want

14 to make sure, a confirmation from Mr. Siller himself, that he has done so.

15 THE REGISTRAR: [In Belgrade] Your Honours, I can confirm that the

16 witness can now see the same ELMO picture that you can see on the screen,

17 and that the witness on her desk here has both paper copies with the

18 signatures next to each other.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Siller.

20 So, Mr. Di Fazio, she's all yours.

21 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

22 Q. All right. Ms. Trifunovic, you now have two documents with some

23 signatures on them. Do you recognise those signatures, or any of those

24 signatures?

25 A. Yes. Yes.

Page 2085

1 Q. Okay. Can you point to --

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Thank you. Thank you. Can you point to your signature with your

4 finger? Point. Point to it.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Your signature or signatures.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. To be a judge, you have to have a gift from

8 God, and that's patience and restraint. How are we going to see now where

9 she is going to point? Can you tell me, Mr. Di Fazio?

10 MR. DI FAZIO: I can't. It's the limitations of technology. If

11 she were here, of course, it would not happen. So what I'll suggest --

12 JUDGE AGIUS: We'll take it one by one. She has seen. They are

13 going to move the camera, focus it on the two documents, and hopefully she

14 will have a pointer and hopefully we will have the cameras zoom in enough

15 for us to be able to see. Still we are seeing her hand with a pointer.

16 MR. DI FAZIO: Can I suggest that --

17 JUDGE AGIUS: There is a simpler way of doing it. She has now

18 seen the two signatures juxtaposed; right?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: It's being complicated unnecessarily. Now, let's

21 take one of them. Ms. Trifunovic, hold it in your hands, upright, so that

22 the camera can zoom into it so that we know exactly which of the

23 signatures we're talking about.

24 THE WITNESS: [Indicates].

25 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Keep that document in your hand, turn it

Page 2086

1 towards you, turn it towards you. Yes. How many signatures do you see on

2 that document?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] One.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: One. Whose signature is that; do you know?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mine.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Take the other document, please, in your

7 hands now. Yes, thank you. Turn it around, turn it towards you. Turn it

8 towards you, please. How many signatures do you see on that document?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] One.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Can you show me that document again, please, facing

11 the camera? Can you turn it facing the camera, and can the camera focus

12 on the bottom part of that document, please. Bottom part of that

13 document. Yes, okay.

14 Can you turn it back towards you, Ms. Trifunovic, please. Yes, I

15 am going to put to you that in that bottom part of that page, there are

16 three signatures, one in Cyrillic and two in Latin script; is that

17 correct?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: So there are three signatures.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Is any one of those three signatures yours?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, all three.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: What do you mean, all three? I see, for example, at

24 the extreme left, I see a signature of a certain Eileen Gillies, Eileen P.

25 Gillies. Is that your signature?

Page 2087

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Two of these are mine, and one

2 isn't.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Which ones are yours? Can you --

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Two are mine. This one's mine and

5 this one isn't.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Which one is yours, please?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This one.


9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Where my finger is.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. And -- yes. And on the other side of the

11 page, there are two other signatures, with a date. Are any of those other

12 two signatures yours?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This one is not mine.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: And the one underneath, the one below it?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] One is and one isn't mine.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Which one --

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This one that I'm pointing at is

18 mine.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: And which is the other one which is also yours?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've shown already. This one.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: But on that document that you have in your hand,

22 apart from that signature that you are showing with your finger now, is

23 there any other signature on that page which is also yours? On that

24 document.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There are two signatures here.

Page 2088

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Trifunovic, it seems to me that there are three

2 signatures there, not two. Look at the page carefully. Turn the document

3 towards your face. Let's start from the left. There is a signature there

4 which says Eileen P. Gillies; do you see it?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Below it, below it, there is another signature of

7 someone else, probably of Ivana Vencl. Do you see that other signature?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Is that yours?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This one isn't, no. One of them is

11 and one of them isn't.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Which one is yours, then?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This one is and this one isn't, like

14 I said.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. For the record, the witness indicates

16 the signature on the right-hand side, which is in Cyrillic. Can you

17 explain to me, therefore, one thing: Do you have two signatures, two

18 signatures? One in Cyrillic and one in Latin?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Di Fazio, I know I haven't made your life easy

21 today.

22 MR. DI FAZIO: I'm grateful, Your Honour, for your clarifications.

23 Q. Did you always have two signatures, even at the age of -- let me

24 withdraw that. How long have you had two signatures?

25 A. Since about four or five years.

Page 2089

1 Q. All right. Well, I think we'll leave the topic of signatures.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: I would suggest -- I would totally agree with you,

3 Mr. Di Fazio.

4 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

5 Q. Just one other issue that I want to ask you about. You were asked

6 about whether you saw anyone beating the men. You said you didn't see

7 them. In the time that you were in custody, did you ever see --

8 A. No, I didn't see that, but I heard.

9 Q. I know. I heard your evidence and I understand that. In the time

10 that you were in custody, when you were being taken from the women's cell

11 to the lavatory, did you ever see anyone other than the Muslim guards that

12 you have spoken about?

13 A. While I was in detention, I did not see any of the men, but I did

14 hear them.

15 Q. I'm asking about when you were being taken from the women's cell

16 to the lavatory, to the bathroom, to the toilet. When you were making

17 those little trips from your cell to the toilet, did you see any men other

18 than, apart from, Muslim guards, the ones you've told us about? Do you

19 understand my question?

20 A. No.

21 Q. All right.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Perhaps -- would you like to repeat it or move on.

23 It's up to you, Mr. Di Fazio.

24 MR. DI FAZIO: I'm going to leave it, and I'm going to complete my

25 re-examination, if Your Honours please.

Page 2090

1 Thank you very much, Ms. Trifunovic.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: We are soon finished with you, Ms. Trifunovic, so

3 it's another couple of minutes, and then you can -- you are free to go.

4 Judge Eser would like to put a question to you.

5 Questioned by the Court:

6 JUDGE ESER: Ms. Trifunovic, we had a talk about the statement of

7 February 1993, and you told us that the signature on this statement is

8 yours. Now, my question is --

9 A. Yes.

10 JUDGE ESER: Now, my question is: Before you signed this

11 document, did you -- have you read it, or was it read to you?

12 A. It was read to me recently, on the 16th, when I went to Belgrade

13 for an interview. But before I was even married, while I was still living

14 in Bosnia, it was never read to me.

15 JUDGE ESER: Now, am I correct in assuming that in the Serbian

16 language mostly is not written in Latin but in Cyrillic; is that true?

17 A. Yes, in Cyrillic.

18 JUDGE ESER: Now, at the time of 1993, when you have been 11 and a

19 half years old, have you been able to read Latin, statements written in

20 Latin script, written in Latin?

21 A. I was able to read both, as a matter of fact.

22 JUDGE ESER: Thank you.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. One last question: What was the size or the

24 measurements of the room, prison cell, that you were kept in in

25 Srebrenica, if you can give us an indication.

Page 2091

1 A. Can you please repeat the question. I don't think I heard you

2 correctly. My apologies.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. My question is: Could you give us an

4 indication of the size of the room, the prison cell, in Srebrenica where

5 you were kept, together with the other 19 or 20 women? How big or small

6 was it.

7 A. That room was quite big. It was a large room.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. And was it bigger than the room where the men

9 were being kept?

10 A. Same size.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Same size, okay. Thank you.

12 That completes your testimony, Ms. Trifunovic. I am sure that you

13 are glad to hear that. On behalf of the Tribunal, and on behalf, also, of

14 Judge Brydensholt from Denmark, Judge Eser from Germany, and on my own

15 behalf as Presiding Judge in this trial, I should like to thank you for

16 having accepted to give evidence in this trial. I hope that the

17 arrangements that we made for you have not caused you any undue discomfort

18 or problems. We tried our best. Once more, I thank you, and I can assure

19 you that the staff that we have over there will continue to assist you to

20 make your return to your home as easy as possible. Thank you once more.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, too.

22 [The witness's testimony via videolink concluded]

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Anything else before we adjourn?

24 MR. JONES: Nothing with this witness, Your Honour, but I would

25 want to return to an issue which arose this morning, briefly.

Page 2092

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Right. I want to make sure that the connection with

2 Belgrade is terminated here. And we can proceed.

3 This is something which is not going to take us much time, I

4 suppose, because otherwise we'll have -- we have already gone beyond the

5 break time.

6 MR. JONES: Your Honours, just five minutes.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: I take it that there's no objection on your part if

8 we sit for another five minutes or so and then we adjourn? Okay.

9 MR. JONES: Your Honour, it's simply this: My reading of the

10 evidence of Ms. Trifunovic was that she was shown a copy of the document

11 which was -- which became D81 by the Office of the Prosecutor,

12 specifically Mr. Di Fazio, on the 16th of November, 2004, and moreover,

13 that she signed that statement. And I might be wrong about that, but

14 certainly when I read, it's at page 44 of the transcript, Your Honour

15 asked whether she remembered being interviewed by someone from the

16 Republika Srpska Ministry. So that's the 1993 statement; yes. On that

17 occasion, did you make a statement; yes. Was it put in writing; yes. And

18 then further down: Were you given a copy of your statement; yes. Did you

19 sign the statement; yes. And who gave you the statement to sign?

20 Ministry of Affairs [sic] or somebody from the Prosecutor's Office; the

21 Prosecutor's office.

22 I also, and I could again be wrong, but understand it to be the

23 Prosecution's policy that when they present documents to witnesses, they

24 have the witness sign it. Now in light of my learned friend's

25 re-examination today, if it's right that they went to Belgrade with this

Page 2093

1 document, which I insist on emphasising we were not provided with under

2 Rule 66(A)(ii), we found it ourselves and translated it ourselves, which

3 is already a breach of that rule; but if on top of that the Prosecutor

4 showed Ms. Trifunovic this statement and she largely adopted it, by her

5 comments, and maybe even signed it, to then not disclose that statement to

6 us and then suggest in re-examination that a document is a mere piece of

7 paper, with no value, as Mr. Di Fazio is doing, is, in my submission,

8 entirely improper.

9 So I do think that calls for an answer from the Prosecution as to

10 why they didn't disclose this document to us, firstly. Secondly, why,

11 only at the break today, did Mr. Di Fazio even mention this note, which

12 fortunately we had found by our own diligence. And thirdly, if she did

13 sign the statement, why we weren't provided with a copy of the signed

14 statement, a signed version of the official note.

15 Those are all questions which, in my submission, are serious and

16 deserve an answer from the Prosecution.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Di Fazio.

18 First of all, may I ask this: RR321946 originates from?

19 MR. DI FAZIO: It's a rules of the road file, which is why it has

20 RR there.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Yes, please.

22 MR. DI FAZIO: First of all, there is no policy that Mr. Jones

23 refers to about presentation of documents for signature by witnesses

24 during the proofing process. Each Prosecutor, each lawyer, depending on

25 where they come from, has a different style, a different approach to

Page 2094

1 proofing.

2 For the second time today, I informed Mr. Jones, as I did earlier,

3 that there was no signed version by Ms. Trifunovic which I obtained in

4 Belgrade last week while I was proofing her, and when I presented this

5 document. So I repeat for the second time: No, there is no such

6 document. Mr. Jones may choose or not choose to believe me, but I'm

7 telling the Trial Chamber there is no signed version. So I hope that

8 makes my position clear.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Disclosure now.

10 MR. DI FAZIO: Disclosure. If I had the document here, and given

11 the evidence that was coming up today, the first thing I would have done

12 was make it available for everyone to see so that we could get to the

13 bottom of this forensic issue. That might have indicated that I should

14 have disclosed it, but I had no document that I could show you, the Trial

15 Chamber, or Defence that was signed by this witness last week when I --

16 JUDGE AGIUS: You certainly had it last week, because you wouldn't

17 have shown it to the witness in the first place.

18 MR. DI FAZIO: I think what's happening is we're talking at

19 cross-purposes. The document was disclosed to the Defence quite a long

20 time ago as part of the rules of the road file, as part of the rules of

21 the road files.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: That's what we want to know.

23 MR. DI FAZIO: That's what I disclosed. But I keep hearing from

24 Mr. Jones the notion that I took this document, RR321946, showed it to

25 this witness last week in Belgrade and got her to sign it, so that we have

Page 2095

1 a recent specimen of her signature. Now, if that is what is being put by

2 Mr. Jones, that did not occur.

3 Secondly, disclosure of this document occurred quite some time

4 ago, as part of a rules of the road --

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you have a record of it?

6 MR. DI FAZIO: We do.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't expect you to tell me now. But what we want

8 to make sure of is that this was, indeed, disclosed, and not hidden from

9 the Defence, because the indication that we have from Mr. Jones is that

10 they came across it just by chance, through their own diligence, and not

11 because it was -- it had been disclosed to them.

12 MR. JONES: No, that's correct. If I may assist, as far as that's

13 concerned, we received rules of the road material. We received four boxes

14 of rules of the road material without any list or anything of that nature,

15 and essentially it was a bulk disclosure of rules of the road files.

16 Quite separately from that, the Prosecution has an obligation

17 under Rule 66(A)(ii) to disclose prior statements of Prosecution

18 witnesses. Mr. Di Fazio, clearly on the 16th of November this year, was

19 in Belgrade, he showed that very document to Ms. Trifunovic. It wasn't

20 until the break today that he asked us whether we had it or not. As I

21 say, we happened to have it because we found it amongst four boxes of

22 documents which were not listed, and the question put to me by

23 Mr. Di Fazio indicates that he didn't know whether we had the statement or

24 not. He didn't know. So there's no question of deliberate disclosure of

25 Ms. Trifunovic's past statement to us.

Page 2096

1 MR. DI FAZIO: I asked that question because the case manager

2 raised the issue with me. I was informed before I went to Belgrade that

3 it had been disclosed. And I was checking to make sure, to make sure that

4 my clear understanding was not wrong, to make sure that the Defence had

5 it, to make sure that they weren't about to embark on their

6 cross-examination without having this particular document, as I had been

7 under the impression that it was been disclosed to them. I was making

8 sure that he had it, and that's why I approached Mr. Jones and asked him:

9 Do you have the document.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: When did this exchange take place?

11 MR. DI FAZIO: Before the cross-examination commenced by

12 Mr. Jones.

13 MR. JONES: After examination-in-chief.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: In other words, today.

15 MR. DI FAZIO: Today. I'm told by my case manager that the

16 documents that -- in which they received the statement from Svetlana

17 Trifunovic, the one that we've been talking about, were both inspected by

18 the Defence and then later disclosed to them. I can give you -- later I

19 can give you details of when the document was disclosed to them.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: But there is a difference between a document which

21 is just part of the rules of the road bulk and a document which is, in

22 itself, a statement made by a prospective witness, or a witness that you

23 intend to bring forward, because that is specifically and separately

24 covered or dealt with by the rules. I mean, I don't see why, for example,

25 at the same time you disclosed to the Defence the statement of the witness

Page 2097

1 to the Office of the Prosecutor of July of 2000, you did not also disclose

2 the statement that she had made or the record of the interview she had had

3 with the officer of the Ministry of Internal Affairs of Republika Srpska.

4 MR. DI FAZIO: I can't answer that question off the top of my

5 head, if Your Honours please, because I don't know precisely when the OTP

6 statement was disclosed to you. I can let you know. I can get to the

7 records --

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Not to us, to them. I'm not interested about

9 disclosure to us because, strictly speaking, it's -- you're not required

10 to disclose to us --

11 MR. DI FAZIO: Sorry, my apologies, to the Defence. I meant to

12 say to the Defence, not to the Chamber.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm going to stop the debate now on this. I take it

14 that you will make your own inquiries about this --

15 MR. DI FAZIO: I'll get all the information and put it --

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Because the rules, as they are, require proper

17 disclosure and complete disclosure. As regards -- I mean, different kinds

18 of disclosures. As regards witnesses you intend to bring forward, there's

19 a specific rule which I don't need to refer you to because I'm pretty sure

20 you know it by heart by now, and we -- I do want an explanation.

21 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. I'll look into the records, and I'll inform

22 you of when these documents were provided to the Defence.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: I mean, it's a very valid point that Judge

24 Brydensholt has now. Who would have done the translation of the original,

25 from the original?

Page 2098

1 MR. JONES: We did that. That was our own translation, done in

2 Sarajevo, I believe.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So we stand adjourned until tomorrow.

4 Now, tomorrow we have got a very specific agenda. There is

5 Ms. Manas, who will be testifying. We want to see, since you raised the

6 matter last time, the video relating to the witness that we've had here

7 already, the relevant part of the video, to put us in a better position

8 when we come to decide about that witness. And this, if you can deal with

9 tomorrow, this particular matter that we've been dealing with now.

10 MR. DI FAZIO: There will be no problem with that. In fact, I'd

11 hoped to present the video as part of my submission to you. I'm also

12 arranging for draft translations of what's being said on the video and --

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, all right.

14 MR. DI FAZIO: And God willing, they will be available for us all

15 tomorrow.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. And then obviously the debate on the

17 motions. That's all. Thank you.

18 Before we rise, I wish to thank the interpreters, the technicians,

19 everyone here, because we -- but the compensation is that we are finishing

20 earlier today. Thank you.

21 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 12.40 p.m.,

22 to be reconvened on Friday, the 26th day of

23 November, 2004, at 9.00 a.m.