Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 2968

1 Monday, 13 December 2004

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Registrar. Could you call the case,

6 please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honour. Case number

8 IT-03-68-T, the Prosecutor versus Naser Oric.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Good morning, Mr. Oric. Can you follow the

10 proceedings in a language you can understand?

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours, ladies

12 and gentlemen. Yes, I can.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you. You may sit down.

14 Appearances for the Prosecution.

15 MR. WUBBEN: Good morning, Your Honours. My name is Jan Wubben,

16 lead counsel for the Prosecution, together with me, Jose Doria, and our

17 case manager Ms. Donnica Henry-Frijlink, and our case manager is assisted

18 by Ms. Georgia Mirkovic, and she is for future our acting case manager and

19 that is also the reason she is included now.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Wubben, and good morning to you and

21 your team.

22 Appearances for Naser Oric.

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. My name

24 is Vasvija Vidovic, appearing for Mr. Naser Oric with Mr. John Jones.

25 With us are our legal assistants, Ms. Jasmina Cosic and our case manager,

Page 2969

1 Mr. Geoff Roberts.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Madam Vidovic, and good morning to you

3 and your team.

4 This is the last week before we go on recess, so let's make the

5 best use of the time available. How many witnesses do you have in town,

6 or do you plan to have in town? How many witnesses do you have in town

7 already, Mr. Wubben?

8 MR. WUBBEN: We have, as far as I can oversee, there are three

9 witnesses, and when it comes to those witnesses, the last in schedule is

10 more or less standby at the end. I doubt whether we can finalise with the

11 third one today, meaning --

12 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay. Okay. Okay. All right. Any

13 preliminaries before we start?

14 MR. JONES: Just one, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Jones, yes.

16 MR. JONES: You'll recall last week when Mr. Nikolic and

17 Mr. Popovic testified that an issue arose as to a document bearing ERN

18 numbers being provided to one of those witnesses, and we heard conflicting

19 accounts of how the witness got the documents. Ratko Nikolic said that

20 Nikola Popovic gave him the documents, quite emphatically he said that

21 several times, whereas Mr. Popovic denied that. Now, the matter might

22 just lie there and one would wonder which witness is mistaken and/or not

23 telling the truth, but the fact is the Prosecution can actually throw some

24 light on the matter, since firstly these documents bear ERN numbers and

25 Mr. Di Fazio, in re-examining Mr. Nikolic, sought to suggest that in fact

Page 2970

1 he provided the documents to Mr. Nikolic. And since, in our submission,

2 it's important -- it's an important matter because it's important to know

3 whose credibility is affected. Is it Mr. Popovic's or Mr. Nikolic's? We

4 would submit that Mr. Di Fazio could clarify this matter as to whether in

5 fact he did provide the documents to Mr. Nikolic, and if so, which

6 documents, which is a very important matter, since you may recall

7 Mr. Nikolic on occasion said, I didn't know who this man was until I saw

8 the documents, or I wasn't sure of the date until I saw the documents. So

9 which documents he provided, and also why he provided the documents.

10 Because, as I understand it, or I assume that's not customary practice to

11 provide documents to witnesses, but I don't know.

12 But in any event, it seems that we shouldn't be left up in the air

13 as to whether Mr. Popovic was mistaken or whether Mr. Nikolic was

14 mistaken. We should have some clarification from the Prosecution as to

15 what in fact happened.


17 MR. JONES: I'm not asking the Prosecution to deal with now on the

18 hoof, because after all it's also Mr. Di Fazio who said that he personally

19 provided the documents, but I think a considered response would be helpful

20 in the coming days.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I'm sure that Mr. Wubben will refer this to

22 Mr. Di Fazio.

23 MR. WUBBEN: Yes, Your Honour, I will. And we'll get back to you.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: The Trial Chamber, of course, stands neutral on this

25 matter. We will not give any direction, directives or any orders.

Page 2971

1 MR. JONES: I'm obliged, Your Honour. I simply raise it.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: And obviously, we'll play it by the ear as we go

3 along and see what happens.

4 MR. JONES: It was just that it seemed --

5 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no. I think it's very fit and proper for you to

6 have raised the matter because it's there.

7 Yes. Any further preliminary matters you would like to raise?

8 Nothing. I see none. Usher, could you escort the witness in, please.

9 Mr. Wubben, how much more do you think you need this witness for?

10 MR. WUBBEN: Your Honour, three-quarters of an hour, one hour,

11 but --

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Not more.

13 MR. WUBBEN: Not more.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: And Madam Vidovic or Mr. Jones?

15 MR. JONES: Yes. In fact it will be me, and I imagine an hour,

16 maximum.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: So if we try to, without imposing on you, obviously,

18 because we have already consumed 10, 12 minutes, leave it. We'll take as

19 much time as we need. We'll take as much time as we need. What I was

20 going to suggest is to try and finish with him by the break. But that's

21 maybe asking too much.

22 [The witness entered court]

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning to you.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning.

25 Let him sit down, usher. Let him sit down straight away. Make

Page 2972

1 sure that he is on channel 4 -- channel -- whichever channel is his

2 language.

3 Good morning to you, Mr. Miladinovic.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] God bless you all.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. And you too. And good morning to you.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] God bless you all again.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Could you confirm to me that you are receiving

8 interpretation in your own language.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not sure what you're telling me.

10 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Miladinovic, I want to make sure that you are

12 receiving interpretation in your language of what I am saying.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. But if she

14 doesn't understand anything that I'm saying because the Serbo-Croat is the

15 most difficult language in the world, the same thing has five or six

16 different names. So people may not understand.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: I want to make sure that you are understanding what

18 I am saying.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you. Now, look at me, please.

21 Mr. Wubben will be continuing and finishing his examination-in-chief, and

22 when he's finished, then Mr. Jones, who is appearing for Naser Oric, will

23 cross-examine you.

24 May I just remind you of two things that I told you last time.

25 One thing is that you are testifying under the solemn declaration that you

Page 2973












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Page 2974

1 made, that you entered last Friday, namely, that in the course of your

2 testimony, you will be speaking the truth, the whole truth, and nothing

3 but the truth. A solemn declaration that, in some jurisdictions, is

4 called an oath.

5 The second thing I want to tell you and remind you of is that

6 unless you want to stay here another two or three days, please restrict

7 your answers to the question that is put to you. Just answer the

8 question, and nothing else but the question. Otherwise we will be here

9 for eternity. Do you understand me?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do understand you, but I have not

11 come here to get someone to light my cigarette. I came here to describe

12 everything that happened in the area, if you see my point.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I see your point, but it is not like that here.

14 Here you are asked questions and you answer the questions. Otherwise,

15 unfortunately, if I see that you are not prepared to abide by the rules, I

16 will just send you home packing.

17 Mr. Wubben, you may proceed with your first question, please.

18 MR. JONES: Your Honour, may I?

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Jones.

20 MR. JONES: Just one matter which is -- again, this witness,

21 despite being apparently illiterate, seems to have papers and documents in

22 front of him which he seems to be looking at and perhaps preparing to

23 refer to. I don't think it would be proper during the course of his

24 testimony for him to be referring to papers and documents.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't know what he's going to -- why anticipate

Page 2975

1 matters. When we come to that, Mr. Jones, we'll deal with it.

2 MR. JONES: But Your Honour, he may be refreshing his memory as we

3 speak from documents. It seems he should put those away --

4 JUDGE AGIUS: When you see him refreshing his memory, just draw my

5 attention, that's all, and we'll deal with the matter.

6 MR. JONES: I'm seeing it now. He was just looking at the papers.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: What papers were you looking at, Mr. Miladinovic?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The ones that I have in front of me.

9 These are papers, papers of houses that burnt down in the village of

10 Jezestica. I wrote down each individual name on Friday of the owners when

11 I left the courtroom. I kept writing until 1.00 in the morning. Because

12 I don't like those photographs. They don't seem too accurate to me.

13 Next thing, I have names, how things were taken away from people

14 and a child too.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Let me see those papers. Let's -- usher, please

16 bring them over and then we'll give them back to him.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't think you can read these.

18 It's a pointless exercise.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: I just -- let me decide, Mr. Miladinovic. I am the

20 Judge, not you.

21 Yes. Usher, please show them to Mr. Wubben and show them to

22 Mr. Jones very quickly. And then return them to the witness.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Please give those papers back to the witness.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't think anyone could quite

Page 2976

1 find their way around these papers that I wrote. Did you find what I

2 wrote about this child being taken away? It's there, but I don't think

3 you'd find it.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Did you write those yourself, Mr. Miladinovic, or

5 did someone else write them for you?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wrote them personally, in my room,

7 after dinner, and I kept on writing until 1.00 in the morning. I wanted

8 to draw a map for you too, but I would have needed a much larger piece of

9 paper in order to draw the entire village. If I'd known that we would

10 need that, I would have found a man in Bratunac who would have done it for

11 me. What you have here is something that I drew personally.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Because I thought last Friday you told us that you

13 are illiterate, you can't read or write, and you can only distinguish some

14 block letters -- let me finish, please. You said that you can only

15 distinguish some block letters, capital letters. And then I see that

16 practically almost everything is written cursive, small letters,

17 continuous writing.

18 Anyway, Mr. Wubben, he is your witness, not mine.

19 MR. WUBBEN: Thank you very much, Your Honour.


21 [Witness answered through interpreter]

22 Examined by Mr. Wubben: [Continued]

23 Q. Witness, will you please tell me when you gave a statement on

24 Friday, last Friday, regarding the attack of the 8th of August, 1992, you

25 gave information to the Judges about the attack. My next question will be

Page 2977

1 the time after that attack, and my question will be: In the period after,

2 following up after the 8th of August, 1992, did any JNA or VRS army or

3 force come to the village to speak to the villagers?

4 A. No. No.

5 Q. And did the village guards still remain keeping guard after the

6 8th of August, 1992, so after that attack?

7 A. With me, there were eight persons.

8 Q. And did those nine persons in total, or eight persons, keep --

9 A. Eight. I said eight.

10 Q. This group of village guards, did they remain keeping guard every

11 day or keeping up the system like that?

12 A. Until Christmas-time, until Christmas-time. Everything remained

13 the same. They slept at Nikola's house. I said that on the 8th there

14 were two or three houses left. My own, Nikola's and Nikola uncle's, the

15 guard slept there over there in his house and I slept in my own.

16 Q. And did the village guard receive any new weaponry or military

17 equipment?

18 A. No equipment. Some rubber boots, that sort of thing, and shirts.

19 Q. You stated the time period until Christmas. What happened in

20 Christmas, following up --

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. What happened then? Was there an attack or not? Please confirm.

23 A. I'm not sure what you're asking me. Can you please clarify.

24 Q. What happened at Christmas following up this attack of August?

25 Was there a new attack or not?

Page 2978

1 A. No. No. Everything was normal.

2 Q. And is it --

3 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. When you say -- because let's be

4 specific, Mr. Wubben. Be patient a little bit with the Trial Chamber and

5 with the witness. When you say Christmas, precisely exactly which day of

6 the year are you referring to?

7 MR. WUBBEN: Your Honour, I'm referring to the beginning of 1993.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: The date, please. Because Christmas for me that

9 year was the 25th of December. I'm sure that for the witness it wasn't

10 the 25th of December.

11 MR. WUBBEN: I mean the beginning of January 1993.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, but could you just mention the day and the

13 month, please.

14 MR. WUBBEN: I didn't took the liberty to lead --

15 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no, no. Lead him. Lead him.

16 MR. WUBBEN: Okay.

17 Q. Was there an attack on the 7th of January, on Christmas in 1993,

18 on your village?

19 A. Are you asking me?

20 Q. Yes, Witness, I'm asking you.

21 A. You want me to describe that, don't you, how it was, or not?

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Go ahead. Go ahead. Yes, please. But first

23 of all tell us whether there was an attack on the 7th of January, 1993.

24 A. Exactly on the 7th of January. It's the Serbian Christmas, the

25 Catholic Christmas falls on the 25th. There was an attack at half past

Page 2979












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Page 2980

1 5.00. I was standing guard at the time. We were surrounded on all sides,

2 and there was just one side towards Polom that you could escape to. At

3 half past 5.00, there were white and black uniforms like the ones we had.

4 I was not able to see the fires. You can see the hill of Tanici, you can

5 see the whole of Kravica from there, but not Jaglici because there's a

6 hill in between. You can see the river Drina and Cizmici and Jesova and

7 Glogova. You can see everything. That's the sort of view we have from

8 there. So that's how it began. The shooting began. You had nowhere to

9 go. It was Christmas-time, so we were roasting pigs. We needed some meat

10 to eat. Those Turks didn't even allow us to have breakfast. That's how

11 early they started attacking us.

12 So then we had to run to the bottom of the village. 17 persons

13 were killed there. If you want any detail on this, I can provide some.

14 17. One was taken away to Srebrenica, to see Naser, but he never came

15 back alive. That's why I had gone to Mitar Nikolic's house. I was

16 sitting there and watched the cowsheds and then barns and house burning.

17 I watched it all. There were about 20 women crying out and yelling:

18 We'll never be able to build these houses again.

19 I came by and I said: Well, sure we'll put these houses up again

20 at some point. The main thing is to remain alive. And they left towards

21 Polom. Mitar and myself remained. There was a cowshed there. I had oxen

22 that I kept. I wanted nothing but a box of cigarettes, and I had wheat

23 too, but I needed no more wheat, because I had enough. I would give it

24 away to people, and my oxen would be used to draw firewood and they said:

25 Do you want some firewood? And I said: No, all I want is a box of

Page 2981

1 cigarettes. And then I saw my cowshed burning and I thought to myself:

2 My oxen must be burning. But actually, someone had taken the livestock

3 away as I was later to find out.

4 And I said: Come on, the two of us must go too. And he said: I

5 don't want to leave the house. I'd rather just burn it down. And I said:

6 No. Don't burn your house. Let them burn it if they want to.


8 Q. I have a question for you related to those white uniform --

9 sorry - I'll redress that question.

10 I have a question to you, Witness, related to those men attacking

11 the village. They were dressed in white and black uniforms. And you

12 referred to them as Turks. Were these Muslim forces or other forces? Can

13 you tell us more about the ethnicity of these forces attacking your

14 village?

15 A. In World War II, we called them Turks. Tito, if you've heard of

16 that ruler of Yugoslavia, allowed them to be undeclared. Later, he

17 allowed them to be Muslims. Their wives covered themselves, but he

18 ordered them and they had to uncover themselves. But I don't know what

19 faith they are. How should I call them? They call themselves Bosniaks

20 now. But I'm also from Bosnia.

21 Q. How many Muslim or Turks attackers did you notice? Was this a

22 huge number or small groups or one group? Please tell the Judges.

23 A. It was not a small group. There were thousands, thousands.

24 Because from my hill, I could see everything around me was burning. I

25 could see the entire Kravica area and the Tanici. And if you don't

Page 2982

1 believe me, you could send someone and see how visible it was from that

2 point.

3 Q. When it comes to the area of the Jezestica village, how much is

4 the number then?

5 A. Of what?

6 Q. The number of attackers? Because you described the number of

7 attackers to your estimation when it comes to the entire Kravica area, but

8 we are now here dealing with the Jezestica area or village.

9 A. Not less than a thousand there either, because this is a large

10 area. The village of Jezestica has 504 citizens, 120 houses, some people

11 have two, some have six. I used to have six.

12 Q. Thank you, Witness.

13 A. And it was all burned.

14 Q. My next question will indeed be related to that burning. Did you

15 actually saw the houses being burnt and also the reason how they had been

16 torched or not, or was there another cause of that fire of the houses?

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's cut it down into different questions.

18 Mr. Miladinovic, look at me, please. Did you see houses -- did

19 you just see houses burning or did you also see houses being set on fire?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I saw them burning houses.

21 They carried some kind of liquid and then the house would start burning

22 right away. I saw about six people in olive-grey uniforms. They had some

23 kind of short-barrelled weapons. I served in the army. I only knew about

24 the 48. I didn't know about this other weapon. It's a short-barrelled

25 kind of weapon with a magazine at the bottom.

Page 2983

1 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction. The previous answer

2 of the witness was and it was all surrounded, not it was all burned.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: So you actually saw people setting these houses on

4 fire, in other words?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Does that answer your question, Mr. Wubben?

7 MR. WUBBEN: Yes, Your Honour. Thank you.

8 Q. About this group of persons in olive-grey uniforms, did they

9 cooperate together with the others dressed in black and white uniform?

10 A. We are confusing the terms. This was for Christmas, at Christmas,

11 but it's something else on the 8th of August. I think it's a little

12 confusing.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no. Be patient with us, Mr. Miladinovic. We

14 are still referring to what happened on Christmas Day, the Serb Orthodox

15 Christmas Day, 7th of January. On the 7th of January, I just want you to

16 confirm the following: You saw large number of attackers, you said round

17 about 1.000 attacking the village of Jezestica and its surroundings. Is

18 that right? Is that correct?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: And you also said that these persons, these

21 attackers, were wearing white and black uniforms like you were; is that

22 correct?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: You also said that on that occasion, on the 7th of

25 January, 1993, you saw a large number of houses burning; is that correct?

Page 2984

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Amongst those houses and the property burning, you

3 also saw your own, including the farm where you had the ox?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't see those houses. They're

5 a little bit covered. I have three houses there, but there is a hill in

6 front of them. So I couldn't see that. But I saw the other two in

7 Versica [phoen]. I have to be precise. I would like to be precise.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. And I really appreciate that an elderly

9 man of your age has got still such a good and vivid memory and wishes to

10 be so precise in his answers. I wish many other witnesses were like you,

11 Mr. Miladinovic.

12 You also told us that you saw a number of persons, round about six

13 persons, setting some of the houses on fire with some kind of cans or

14 things that they were carrying with them; is that correct?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: And you said that the persons that were setting

17 these houses on fire were wearing olive-drab uniforms?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Now, coming back to what Mr. Wubben wanted to ask

20 you: Were these six persons who were torching these houses separate from

21 the group of attackers or did they form part of the group of attackers?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were close together, all of

23 them. It's just that these were going around and burning, and the people

24 who were going in front were killing people. The others were throwing

25 people out of their houses. And there was another group, a third group,

Page 2985












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Page 2986

1 that was taking things out of the houses and burning. They were a very

2 well organised group.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: The group that were taking things out of the houses,

4 what were they -- first of all, were they just men or were there also

5 women amongst them?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The women were carrying things;

7 women, children, they were banging buckets and they were shouting like

8 they were in some sort of chase, like they were chasing a bear or

9 something. They were saying: Get the Chetniks. Did you understand me?

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Were there any men amongst them, the ones who

11 were taking things out?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course there were men there. Of

13 course.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: And what were those men wearing, the ones who were

15 taking -- the ones who were taking things out of the houses?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were all kinds of things.

17 They were also wearing civilian uniforms. I said so. Women were carrying

18 things and throwing things out. People were taking away flour, everything

19 that they needed, things for eating.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: And the third group, those who you said were

21 attacking and killing people, what were those wearing? What were those

22 wearing?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, you're asking me the other way

24 round. The first group was going around and beating people up. The

25 second group was entering the houses.

Page 2987

1 JUDGE AGIUS: The first group. Let's take them one by one,

2 Mr. Miladinovic. The first group, according to you, the ones who were

3 beating people, beating people up and killing, what -- were they just men

4 or were they men and women?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Men. The women were in the rear.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. And these men who were beating people up and

7 who were in the front, what were they wearing?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Black, white. They had all sorts of

9 clothes.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Was there snow on the ground on that

11 day?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] About 50 centimetres, if you know

13 what that is.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Thank you. So that was the first group.

15 The second group was the group that were entering houses, you

16 said; is that correct?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. And what were they entering houses for? Do

19 you know?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do. They were taking things out

21 that they needed. They wouldn't burn bread, if you know what wheat bread

22 or cornbread is, beans. They would take better care of the bread than the

23 Serbs did. Because they appreciated the bread. They will burn everything

24 once they take the bread out.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: And these people who were entering the houses and

Page 2988

1 taking the bread out, were they just men or were they mixed? Were there

2 women amongst them?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Only men. The elderly men were

4 taking -- carrying things out and the women were taking them away.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. And these men that were entering houses, what

6 were they wearing?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It depends.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Were they wearing civilian clothes or uniforms?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Some had uniforms, the odd rifle.

10 They had to have one. And there were all sorts of different clothing that

11 they wore.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: So we have spoken of two groups. How many other

13 groups were there?

14 MR. JONES: Your Honour, if I may, at this stage we don't know

15 where the witness was when he saw all this.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I will be asking him. Don't worry. This is

17 to try and clear up and try -- it might seem that it's going to take

18 longer, but in actual fact it's going to take shorter.

19 MR. JONES: It might be one house we're talking about and one

20 group.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: We'll see.

22 MR. JONES: I'd hate the impression to be created that this

23 witness is describing a whole panorama.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm coming to that, Mr. Jones. Don't worry. But

25 this witness also told us with regard to his houses, his six houses, that

Page 2989

1 some he couldn't see, so he wouldn't testify upon, and others he did. So

2 that was the prelude, actually, why I have taken over.

3 MR. JONES: If we could be accurate here.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. So we've spoken of two groups, the ones who

5 were beating people up and then the second group who was entering houses.

6 Now, how many other groups were there, if there were any other groups?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said three groups. The third

8 group was carrying things away.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: And that you described already, where they were

10 mainly women and children, but also some men together with them, mostly

11 wearing civilian clothes; is that correct?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Now, from these three groups, which of the

14 groups was torching the houses, or were those six persons you referred to

15 before a separate group?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That was the second group. I think

17 you didn't understand me. They were throwing things out of the houses and

18 burning.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Now -- no, no. I had --

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Once they took what they were

21 supposed to take away.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: I had understood you perfectly, but it's you who is

23 giving evidence and not I, so it's you who has to make the statements,

24 Mr. Miladinovic, and not me.

25 Next question: You saw these persons entering houses, taking the

Page 2990

1 bread out, and then setting them on fire and taking things out and setting

2 them on fire. How many houses did you see these persons setting on fire,

3 roughly? I don't want you to be precise to the nearest decimal point,

4 but ...

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have 84 in my papers.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: So that basically means that you saw these six

7 persons, roughly, going inside 84 houses and setting those 84 houses on

8 fire?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not 84. Perhaps I didn't see -- I

10 didn't have that visibility. I personally saw 10 to 15 houses, but 84

11 altogether were burned.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: That's perfect. Now, would you be in a position to

13 give us the names of the owners of the houses, those 10 to 15 houses that

14 you saw being set on fire, only those 10 to 15 for the time being, please?

15 Mr. Wubben, I'm sure you don't mind me taking him over for a

16 while.

17 MR. WUBBEN: No, Your Honour. That's why I sat down.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't understand this last

19 question.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: I am sorry if I did not make myself very clear to

21 you, Mr. Miladinovic. I apologise to you. You said that you saw about 10

22 to 15 houses with your own eyes being torched, being set on fire by those

23 six persons in olive-drab uniform; is that correct?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You didn't understand me correctly

25 again. I said that I didn't have the visibility. I didn't see all the

Page 2991












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Page 2992

1 houses being burned, those 10 to 15 houses, but I did say that you could

2 see there was a lot of flames everywhere.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Which houses did you actually see being set on fire,

4 being torched, with your own eyes? Can you be specific?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Would you like me to tell you from

6 the top of my head? I don't need to look at the papers. Would you like

7 me to do that?


9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is on Christmas?

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Only those houses, Mr. Miladinovic, that you

11 saw with your own eyes being set on fire.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Shall I read them out one by one?

13 MR. JONES: Your Honour.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Jones.

15 MR. JONES: This witness said that he wrote down those lists on

16 Friday night. I don't see any reason why on Friday night he should have

17 been able to recall from memory which houses he saw set on fire and now

18 should be unable to need to refer to a piece of paper. If he genuinely

19 saw -- which it seems blindingly obvious to us he didn't see any houses

20 being burnt personally, but if he did, surely he can tell us now which

21 houses those were, if he wrote it down on Friday.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: How old is your grandfather, Mr. Jones?

23 MR. JONES: My grandparents are deceased, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Miladinovic, do you really need to look at those

25 papers? Can you remember the names without having to look at those

Page 2993

1 papers? After all, you said there were very few houses that you saw being

2 set on fire with your own eyes. Do you remember those houses?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that on the 8th of August,

4 when I was, that's how it was. But now this is Christmas. We're talking

5 about Christmas now. You're taking me back and forth all the time. I

6 didn't come to --

7 JUDGE AGIUS: We are still on the 7th of January of 1993. I am

8 not taking you back to August. Please stay on the 7th of January, 1993.

9 On that occasion, which houses did you see with your own eyes being set on

10 fire, on Christmas Day, Orthodox Christmas Day?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Miladinovic, Dragomir, two houses.

12 Miladinovic Nikola, one house. Milanovic Rajo, one house. Bozidar Vukcic

13 [phoen] one house. Dragan Milanovic, one house. Milisav Djukanovic, one

14 house. Nedjo Milanovic, one house. Vojislav Milanovic, one house. Cedo

15 Milanovic, one house. Pero Ostojic. Trisic Slavorad. Bozidar Djuric.

16 Vasilije Djokic, Mila Djokic, Sreten Djokic.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I think that's enough. Earlier on in your

18 testimony, you also said that during the attack on Christmas Day, on the

19 7th of January, 17 of your fellow citizens and villagers were killed

20 during the attack. Do you remember their names?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All of them.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Could you just, without looking at papers, tell us

23 the names, please.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What papers? It's not here in the

25 papers. It's here in my head. Shall I tell you?

Page 2994

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, please.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Eight brothers were killed there.

3 Vaso Miladinovic, two Ostojics, two Djukanovics, two Bogicevics, and I was

4 the one who was placing them in the bags. I'm not going to repeat that.

5 It's already written. Vida Trisic. Then Nevenka Djukanovic, Ivan

6 Djukanovic, Bosko Djukanovic, Kico Djukanovic. No, no. I'm not finished

7 yet. Milo Jokic, Mitar Nikolic. I don't know if that's 17. Could you

8 please check, because I will remember. I know all the names. Of course I

9 know the names.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: That's more than enough, Mr. Miladinovic. And now I

11 am going to hand you back to Mr. Wubben.

12 MR. WUBBEN: Thank you, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. And incidentally, when these persons were

14 killed, in other words, during the peak of the attack, where were you?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Me?


17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Me?


19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was at Mitar Nikolic's place, and

20 I've already said that before. But I will say it again. When all of that

21 was burning, we left his house. I almost got killed. I was the one. But

22 he didn't. He had the protection so that he was protected from bullets.

23 I went the other way. But bullets were whizzing past, but none of them

24 hit me. But it -- I couldn't have cared less if they hit me or not. But

25 then I crossed over a small creek and then I saw that they will not kill

Page 2995

1 me. At about noon, I arrived at Zagoni. It started when Nikola

2 Miladinovic and Lazo Milanovic were there. We spent the night. I didn't

3 even know the first or last name of that man. And then in the morning I

4 left for Bratunac. We were walking. We were going on foot. There was

5 half a metre of snow. We arrived at Bratunac. And those people whom I

6 mentioned who had been killed were not coming. My two sons were not

7 coming either. I was wandering around once I got to Bratunac. There was

8 some food to eat in Bratunac, and I was there. And on the 10th, they took

9 me away to work in the Red Cross, to find accommodation, shelter, for

10 women, children, to give them food, to provide them with mattresses,

11 blankets. And I was there.

12 After 70 days, I went to see what had happened over there and

13 where they were killed. I found that. The lawyer has all the names and

14 last names, and I was putting the papers in those black bags. And then it

15 went to the administration.

16 I went to Bratunac. General Morillon also came to the funeral.

17 This was really terrible. But the lawyers have it all, how their heads

18 were cut off and ribs, my son's head was cut off, both of his arms were

19 cut off. His ribs, he was missing one leg. And then I found it the next

20 day. This is very sad, but what can I say? They shouldn't have done

21 that. If you killed him, all right, kill him and then just move on, but

22 this is really sad.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. This Mitar Nikolic's house, where was it in

24 relation to the centre of Jezestica?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He's at the bottom of the village

Page 2996

1 and he could escape to Siljkovici. There's a boundary there, if you know

2 what I'm saying, between the two fields. He's at the bottom of the

3 village, Mitar Nikolic, if you understand my point. That's where the

4 village of Jezestica begins, from Kravica on, and then on to Siljkovici.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: And in relation to your house and the farm where you

6 had the ox, Mitar Nikolic's house, I want to know. Where was it in

7 relation to your house and the farm where you had the ox? How far was it?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Where Mitar was, further up there

9 were oxen there belonging to a man named Bogicevic and another one name

10 Pajic, and his mother. They were farming the land and he took the

11 livestock away, tied them up and gave them food. And he said we could

12 take anything they like. All I wanted was a box of cigarettes. I needed

13 no money at that point. A man offered me 3.000 German marks but I said:

14 I have no use for this money. I never thought it would come to that. I

15 had no idea that this would ever come to pass.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Miladinovic.

17 Mr. Wubben will take over again now, please. Thank you.

18 Thank you, Mr. Wubben.


20 Q. Witness, you described that property has been taken away during

21 that attack. What happened to the cattle and can you tell us what you

22 saw?

23 A. As I said, when I thought that my oxen had been set on fire, that

24 wasn't actually what happened. They were taking livestock away for their

25 own benefit. But did I tell you that at Pale my cow was found? And the

Page 2997












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Page 2998

1 oxen. They never burned down. A man took them away and then set fire to

2 the cowshed.

3 Q. And witness --

4 A. I have very accurate information of what happened.

5 Q. Witness, I have a question regarding the other houses, farmhouses

6 with cattle. Did you notice that also other cattle had been taken away?

7 A. Everything. All the livestock was taken away. Nothing remained.

8 And they wouldn't kill them either. Like I said a while ago, on the 20th

9 of June, the three houses were set fire to. One of them belonged to me

10 and two to my neighbours. They took all the livestock away and they shot

11 the pigs.

12 Q. But Witness, we are now dealing with this Christmas attack, so you

13 can confirm that attackers took cattle away, can you?

14 A. Yes, I can do anything.

15 Q. I have --

16 A. Sure.

17 Q. -- a question related to the damage to your village, the village

18 of Jezestica, including the hamlet. To what extent did the attack cause

19 damage to the village? Was the whole village burned down or partly of it?

20 Can you clarify that?

21 A. Sure. Perhaps about 20 houses, 80 per cent damage, some had 100

22 per cent damage, some had 20 per cent damage, but most of the houses had

23 100 per cent damage, which means razed to the ground. Because they were

24 made of wood. If you see my point. And those that were built of hard

25 material, 80 per cent, 20 per cent, 50 per cent, depending. Let me be

Page 2999

1 specific about that. That's how it was.

2 Q. Now, you told the Court that around half of the houses had been

3 burned down by the attack in August. Does that mean that the remaining

4 part of the village has been burned down?

5 A. In August, 50 houses were burned, 50. 50.

6 Q. The remaining houses had been burned down during the Christmas

7 attack?

8 A. Well, they burned everything, everything, one by one.

9 Q. So, and what happened, Witness, with the barns and stables? Also

10 being burned down?

11 A. Nothing was left standing. Not a single chicken, if you know what

12 I mean. You can come over and see for yourselves. There is nothing left

13 there, if you get my meaning.

14 MR. WUBBEN: At this time, Your Honour, I would like to show some

15 photographs to the witness. May I please request the usher's assistance

16 to tender a number of six photographs out of the range of exhibit number

17 P3 --

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't want any photographs.

19 MR. WUBBEN: P365, and that's in reuse again. Your Honour, it

20 will be on Sanction as well.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. But we will be following in Sanction, and the

22 witness, however, would like to be shown the originals that you have.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What use do I have for these

24 photographs? Why would I need these?

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Miladinovic, because we require you to see

Page 3000

1 these -- to have a look at these photos.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Do you have perhaps the centre of

3 Jezestica so you can show me how they smashed the memorial plaques.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: We will show you the photos that we have.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I want to see that.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: We will show you the photos that we have one by one.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Drago Djuric, yes.

8 MR. WUBBEN: So, Your Honour, the first photograph will be ERN

9 number 010 --

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Just mention the last four digits, Mr. Wubben.

11 7842.

12 MR. WUBBEN: 7842, confirmed.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Usher, I want to make sure that the witness has in

14 front of him the photo ending with the four digits 7842. He does.

15 Mr. Miladinovic, do you recognise that house?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is Vidosav's house and this is

17 Drago's house. This is the same. Can't you see? What are you giving me

18 these for? This is Vidosav's house and the other one is Drago's house.

19 There's nothing for me to tell there.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Why do you complicate matters unnecessarily? Can't

21 you give the witness the photos one by one?

22 MR. WUBBEN: Your Honour, shall I give the usher my serial so

23 that --

24 JUDGE AGIUS: I think so, yes.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Why do I need to be talking about

Page 3001

1 these?

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Miladinovic, please do it for my sake. You know

3 how difficult my job --

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I will. I will.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you. And I really appreciate -- I

6 really appreciate it.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Everything is crystal clear.

8 MR. WUBBEN: Your Honour --

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Now, we are looking at this house, the one which has

10 the ERN number 7842. Can you please tell me whose house that is.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This one, you mean? This one?

12 Drago Djuric's house, from Jezestica.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: This is what he saw; no? Okay. Thank you. Next

14 one.

15 MR. WUBBEN: Next one will be 7843.



18 Q. Can you please tell the Court whose house this is.

19 A. Vidosav Bogicevic's house.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Thank you. Now, these two houses -- one

21 moment. These two houses, when were they rendered into this condition?

22 When did they finish up like that? In August? In January?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You mean destroyed?

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes, yes.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the 7th of January. The damage

Page 3002

1 occurred on the 7th of January.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Next.

3 MR. JONES: Can he be specific as to the damage. I mean that last

4 house is virtually -- perhaps the witness could be specific as to what

5 damage he's referring to.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: He doesn't need to. I mean, I don't imagine that he

7 went in to inspect the damage. Then it's a question of whether there is

8 enough evidence whether this house has been damaged or not.

9 MR. JONES: There's a certain danger in the broad brush approach

10 that he'll say everything was destroyed on those two dates, and we have no

11 photographic evidence whatsoever.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Miladinovic, this last house that you've just

13 seen --

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I told you about this one.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. When do you think this photo was taken? Have

16 you got an idea?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No idea. I don't have any

18 information on that. I was the first to return to Jezestica, and then

19 people from 20 other households returned.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But I was among the first in 1996 to

22 return to my land.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you think that this photo shows the condition in

24 which the house was after the attack of 7th January? Is this house -- is

25 this how this house ended up after the attack, or did it look different

Page 3003












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Page 3004

1 than what we see on the photo here?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It looked better when it was first

3 built. Can't you see it's burned and charred? It doesn't look much. All

4 the woodwork was taken away.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Let's move to the next document,

6 Mr. Wubben, please.

7 MR. WUBBEN: 7845, please.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Now again, Mr. Miladinovic, do you recognise --

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is -- what do you want me to

10 say?

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Whether you recognise that building.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is Milan Djukanovic's house.

13 No one even gave him any money. This is how the house is now, and he has

14 to live in it like this.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: And when was this house destroyed like that?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the 7th of January, 1992.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's move to the next photo.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 1993. 1993. I'm sorry. Early

19 1993, the 7th.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Miladinovic. Next one.

21 MR. WUBBEN: Next one is 7851.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Now, whose house is that, Mr. Miladinovic?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This one, you mean?

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, the one in the front.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mile Rankovic's house. Mile

Page 3005

1 Rankovic.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: And when was it destroyed like that?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The windows and the doors --

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. When --

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 50 per cent.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Was it destroyed like that or damaged like

7 that on the 7th of January of 1993?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, exactly.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Behind it there seems to be another building. I

10 don't know if it's a house or whether it's a shed or whatever. Do you

11 recognise that other building?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course I do. There's an oven.

13 It's something like a summer kitchen. There's an oven there for when it's

14 hot in the house. There's a small table outside. Do you know how many

15 times I sat there?

16 JUDGE AGIUS: And whose -- does it belong to the same house or is

17 it a separate property?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can you please clarify? I'm not

19 sure what you want me to say.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: This building -- in this photo, we see --

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm clear about the house, and you

22 see his land here too.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. And the building behind the house, did it

24 belong -- did it belong to the same house, to the same owner?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes.

Page 3006

1 JUDGE AGIUS: And was it damaged --

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Same owner. Same owner as the

3 house.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Was it damaged --

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There's an oven, a stove. In this

6 outbuilding, we'd brew coffee there. We'd sit outside in the summer to

7 have coffee at this table in summertime.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Was it damaged too during the attack?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't think that it was damaged.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Next photo, 7874. Whose house is that,

11 Mr. Miladinovic? Do you recognise it?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I'd need to have a closer look

13 first. You can't have a blind man tell you things straight away before

14 he's even had a look.

15 This is Ljubisav Djuric's house.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: And was it damaged on the --

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He's from Gajici.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Was it damaged on the same occasion, on Christmas

19 Day of 1993?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Christmas Day. Everything was.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Next photo, 7878.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't recognise this one. Maybe

23 Vaso Bogicevic's house, but I can't be sure about it. I can't be sure

24 about it. I can't say.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: It's not a problem.

Page 3007

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I thought it was Vaso Bogicevic's

2 house, and it may still be. It's just that I can't be certain about it.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Don't worry, about Mr. Miladinovic.

4 Mr. Wubben.

5 MR. WUBBEN: Thank you, Your Honour. I come to the finalising

6 part of my exam --

7 JUDGE AGIUS: See if you can conclude by half 10.00, please. If

8 you can.

9 MR. WUBBEN: It will certainly be possible.

10 Q. Witness, you stated for the Court that 17 persons had been killed

11 and you gave details about their names. Did you saw the dead bodies

12 actually upon your return to Jezestica?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And can you tell the Court --

15 A. Please.

16 Q. -- whether or not --

17 A. Please, I can tell you everything. I picked up every single body

18 and put it in a bag. But please, you never mentioned that one man was

19 sent over to report to Naser Oric, but never came back. I think this

20 matter needs clarifying.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I give you permission to tell us the story,

22 but in not more than one minute.

23 MR. JONES: Your Honour --

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Jones, please. Let me -- I'm -- I've taken him

25 over for most of the time for every specific reason.

Page 3008

1 MR. JONES: Certainly, Your Honour. It's just that in all of the

2 statements we've been disclosed by this witness he's never dealt with this

3 incident at all --

4 JUDGE AGIUS: You are entitled to ask him why he never mentioned

5 it before. If you are interested in the matter. Because at the end of

6 the day, you may not be.

7 Mr. Miladinovic, this man or this person, because I don't know who

8 this person was who was supposed to go and report to Naser, as you said,

9 and never came back, tell us the story, but in one minute, please, because

10 we have got other persons waiting to come and give evidence.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Dragoje Lazic from the village of

12 Jezestica. That's all I have to say about that. Drago Lazic. I can tell

13 you straight off. He never came back. Is that fast enough?


15 Mr. Wubben.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You want me to tell you about the

17 other people?

18 JUDGE AGIUS: No. No more now.

19 Last few questions from Mr. Wubben and then you can have a break

20 and we can have a break too.


22 Q. Those persons that you saw, those persons that had been killed

23 [Microphone not activated], were they dressed --

24 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for counsel, please.

25 MR. WUBBEN: I will repeat.

Page 3009












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Page 3010

1 Q. Those persons that you saw that had been killed, those 17 persons

2 that you mentioned, how were they dressed? Were they dressed in uniforms

3 or not, civilian clothes or partly, or something like that?

4 A. Well, depending. Some people had civilian clothes and some people

5 had uniforms. What do I know? But I can tell you their names. I picked

6 them up one by one. I'll be quick.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: You have already told us their names.


9 Q. And --

10 A. I didn't tell you about me picking them up and putting their

11 bodies in bags. 70 days later I came back.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: You told us as well, Mr. Miladinovic.

13 Yes, Mr. Wubben.

14 MR. WUBBEN: Those uniforms that you noticed, were these uniforms

15 of a specific army or uniforms that village guards might use or someone

16 else?

17 A. It was olive-drab, the old kind, Tito's uniform. That should have

18 been thrown away long ago.

19 Q. Thank you. Have you ever been compensated for the damage that you

20 suffered from this attack?

21 A. No. No compensation has arrived, just like World War II. My

22 father was killed in Jasenovac, my mother and my three sisters were killed

23 in the village. 121 casualties in the village of Jezestica. No one paid

24 any sort of compensation. That was World War II and now our grandchildren

25 repeated the very same thing, 45 of my relatives died in the village.

Page 3011

1 But as for the bodies that I picked up, I have a whole list. I

2 went and picked up one by one, name by name. Please, if you can grant me

3 that small request. I'll be done in two minutes.

4 Q. I have a specific question related to that compensation. Do you

5 know of anyone else from your village that got compensation or a promise

6 for compensation of the damage?

7 A. Let me be accurate about this. Two of my sons were killed. Some

8 people claimed damages and received damages. I never did, nor do I need

9 any of that. I can't bring my children back.

10 Q. When you tell the Court that some of them got damages, do you mean

11 that they got compensation from the government for that damage?

12 A. As I said before, as for money to rebuild their houses, no. No.

13 No one is giving that kind of money away, no.

14 MR. WUBBEN: Thank you, Your Honour. That was my last question,

15 but I notice that there was an urgent need by this witness for limited

16 time to express some information.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Mr. Miladinovic, you were anxious to tell us

18 the names of the persons that you collected and put in bags to be buried,

19 to be given a decent burial. Yes, I will allow you to give us the names.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I thank you so much. Krsto

21 Djukanovic. I found him outside the house, mutilated. I said --

22 MR. JONES: If the witness is simply going to give a list of

23 names, that's one thing.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Let me finish, Mr. Jones.

25 MR. JONES: Provided it's clear that our client isn't charged with

Page 3012

1 any crimes against --

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I know. You don't need to --

3 MR. JONES: For the public that's important.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. But you mentioned reconciliation last time and

5 this is part of it as well.

6 Yes, Mr. Miladinovic, please. Mr. Miladinovic, look at me,

7 please, and proceed.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Next I found Bosko Djukanovic; the

9 same thing, just the bones. Everything else had been cut away. Then I

10 found Vida Trisic, a lady. There were just some clothes and bones, so I

11 threw them into a bag. I found Nevenka Djukanovic, some clothes and

12 bones. Same thing. And then there were some sort of a dam there and next

13 to the dam I found Ivan Djukanovic. His lower jawbone, that was all, and

14 his watch and I put it all into a bag. That was after the 8th. I

15 recognised his watch. He had two little sons. And I said: We'll give

16 this to his children, let them have it.

17 And then Neod Danila's [phoen] house. There was a ditch there in

18 which I found Vojo Bogicevic. There was almost nothing there. And next

19 to him I found Nedjo Milanovic. His body was not that damaged really. I

20 put them all in a bag. And then I found Radomir. Just next to the ditch,

21 Radomir Jovanovic. He was also not in a good state. And then I found one

22 of the sons. His arm had been severed. Both his arms had been severed.

23 So was his head. His ribs. Only the upper portion of the spine, and I

24 found one of the -- one of his legs the next day and put it in a bag. I

25 found Gordan Nikolic whole. And then I headed further down and there was

Page 3013

1 something there. I'm not sure how to put it. People were building the

2 wall of a house there and there were cables sticking out. And whoever it

3 was ran off, because they were afraid that the wall was mined. I didn't

4 want to run. I found one of the sons, but not the other. And then I took

5 a stick and with my hands I dug the earth up until I found the body. I

6 found Radojko Bogicevic. His throat had been cut, but his body had not

7 been mutilated. And then I found my other son. He worked in Bratunac, at

8 the sawmill. Maybe they had worked together. He pulled him on the ground

9 by a scarf. And then there was another one, Dragan Milanovic, a small

10 boy, 16 years of age. I found him there. He was trying to run. And in

11 Opravdici, the village of Opravdici, they caught up with Mile Jokic. I

12 picked his body up too. Mitar Ostojic, I picked his body up too. And

13 Mitar Ostojic, yes. That's where I picked them up. And I saw also

14 Miladin Momcilovic. His head had been cut off, lying next to him. I'm

15 not sure if you get my meaning. A dog guarded his body for 70 days.

16 That's what I did. These are all the names. And the man who had

17 to go to Srebrenica never returned, the one I spoke about earlier.

18 Please, the whole thing was taken away to Kravica, the bodies. And there

19 was a doctor down there who examined the bodies, and everything was taken

20 to Bratunac. There was General Morillon, who was present when the coffins

21 were being put into the ground. Father and son. There was a lot of

22 mourning and crying.

23 Here you have my explanation. Thank you very much for giving me

24 this opportunity.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: [Previous translation continues]... Mr. Miladinovic.

Page 3014

1 We will now have a 30-minute -- 25-minute break. Thank you.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Sorry. 30-minute break because we have a meeting.

3 --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.

4 --- On resuming at 11.22 a.m.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: So, Mr. Miladinovic, Mr. Jones now is going to put

6 to you a number of questions.

7 Yes, Mr. Wubben. I'm sorry. I didn't recognise you.

8 MR. WUBBEN: It's okay, Your Honour.

9 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, for Mr. Wubben.

10 MR. WUBBEN: It's okay, Your Honour. Registry requested me, if

11 it's possible, to tender the six photographs to the Court, the six

12 photographs being used by showing the photographs, and you will -- you

13 have noticed that in the beginning there was some confusion, so the best

14 way to proceed is to tender these into evidence and to give it a special

15 number.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Could we have a special number for these

17 photos, Mr. Gerold Siller.

18 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the exhibit number will be P461.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Wubben; I thank you, Mr. Siller.

20 So be it. Those six documents will have that exhibit number, 461

21 [realtime transcript read in error "641"]. Or 461.


23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I'm saying it because the transcript says 641.

24 That's wrong. It's 461.

25 Yes, Mr. Jones.

Page 3015












12 Blank page inserted to ensure the pagination between the English and

13 French transcripts correspond













Page 3016

1 MR. JONES: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.

2 Cross-examined by Mr. Jones:

3 Q. Mr. Miladinovic, I'm going to be asking you some questions. I'd

4 be grateful if you'd keep your answers as short as possible. In many

5 instances, you can give a simple yes/no answer. If that's clear.

6 A. I would like to ask you something. I didn't finish, and then you

7 gave somebody else to question me. I forgot one person that I put in the

8 bag, Milovan Ostojic. Please don't consider me to be something else. I

9 still have relatives who were killed in Zagoni. I told the lawyer that.

10 I'm asking you kindly, please.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: That's enough now. Mr. Jones, please proceed with

12 your questions.


14 Q. Now, Mr. Miladinovic, you referred yesterday when you were

15 speaking of the attack on your village on the 8th of August, 1992, to

16 seeing a person on a white horse, and you said that it might be Golic from

17 Glogova. So I'm going to start by asking you some questions about Golic

18 from Glogova.

19 Now, were you referring to Ejub Golic?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Ejub Golic was an important figure in Glogova, wasn't he; that's

22 why you heard of him?

23 A. He was in Cizmici, so-called Bijeceva.

24 Q. If you know, wasn't he the commander of the Muslims from Glogova

25 in 1992?

Page 3017

1 A. I don't know that, whether he was a commander or not. I only

2 heard that recently.

3 Q. Isn't it right, though, that on the 8th of August, 1992, you

4 thought that the attack might be from the Muslims from Glogova, might have

5 been coming from the Muslims from Glogova?

6 A. No, no. That's not so. No.

7 Q. Can you tell us, then, why --

8 A. Yes. You didn't understand me. I can tell you where he's from,

9 if you would like to know. From Cizmici, Pale, Jaglici, Susnjari. That's

10 where the attack came from. Why are you taking me back to Glogova? I

11 didn't come here to lie.

12 Q. That's right that on the day, you thought the attack was coming

13 from the Muslims from Cizmici and Jaglici, that area; is that right?

14 A. That is correct. That's true.

15 Q. So in other words, from local Muslims, from near your village,

16 your neighbours?

17 A. Yes, of course. That's correct.

18 Q. There were stories, weren't there, of Golic having a white horse

19 and being a local commander, and that's why you thought that it might be

20 him on the white horse?

21 A. Please. Naser had a white horse, and he was in Brezak Brijeg on

22 the 8th of August and maybe he gave it to him.

23 Q. That's not what you told us yesterday, Mr. Miladinovic. You told

24 us that you saw a white horse and you said --

25 A. Yes.

Page 3018

1 Q. You said: Whether it was Golic from Glogova or another man, I

2 don't know.

3 But you also said that he was far away, as far as a kilometre

4 away, and that you couldn't actually see who it was.

5 A. It was either Naser or this Ejub Golic, whatever his name is.

6 You're just confusing me. Because he did have a white horse. So you can

7 ask General Morillon. He knows.

8 Q. Well, I certainly don't wish to confuse you, but I will ask you a

9 question about your eyesight, since we're talking about distances. You

10 told the Court on Friday that you had an operation on your eyes three

11 years ago, so you had a problem with your eyesight before then which

12 required surgery?

13 A. Yes, yes. I'm going to get the document out. Never.

14 Q. Never --

15 A. Wait, wait. I have the piece of paper. I wouldn't know how to

16 measure into grammes. I was working in the Red Cross. I have a document

17 here. For five years, from 1993, the 10th of January, I joined the Red

18 Cross. I wouldn't be able to measure. I mean, I didn't have glasses

19 then. Only when I went home did this problem begin. And I have a

20 document. If you're interested, you can call the Red Cross in Bratunac.

21 The president is there. It's very easy to prove. If you're trying to

22 convince me that I'm blind, that I couldn't see, then we could disprove

23 that. Please.

24 Q. Thank you. I'm not trying to persuade you that you're blind.

25 It's right, isn't it, that you didn't have perfect vision in August 1992,

Page 3019

1 20/20 vision, did you? You're not telling us that?

2 A. Again you're taking me back. I have just told you: How could I

3 possibly see to weigh down to a gramme if I had problems with my vision?

4 It's a shame what you're doing.

5 Q. Let's move on.

6 Isn't another reason why you thought that the attacking forces

7 might be led by Golic, Ejub Golic, was because the Serbs in your area had

8 been fighting with the Muslims from Glogova and some other places from the

9 outbreak of war right up to August 1992?

10 A. Well, you know that always I call them Turks. The Muslims were

11 undeclared. The Bosniaks. I know in World War II, as children we called

12 them Turks. Later, Tito permitted them to be undeclared. Then he allowed

13 them to be Muslims. Now they're Bosniaks. I'm a Bosnian too. I don't

14 know how to refer to them. Did you understand me now?

15 Q. I did. But if you would please try and keep your answers short.

16 That's not the question I asked you. I was asking about the Muslims in

17 Glogova, and in that regard, I'm going to put a question to you, and I

18 remind you that you are under oath and I'd appreciate an honest answer.

19 You do know, don't you, that the Muslims from Glogova were expelled from

20 their homes in May 1992?

21 A. In May. Which May?

22 Q. May 1992. You've told us you could see Glogova from your village.

23 You're aware, aren't you, that all the Muslims from Glogova were expelled

24 in 1992?

25 A. You can see everything.

Page 3020

1 Q. So you saw that happening, the Muslims being expelled, their

2 houses being burnt, people being killed?

3 A. No. I didn't see it. I was down in the village. I didn't come

4 out to see that. I was down in the village. I didn't come out to watch.

5 I just said that on the 5th, I went to Bukova Glava for a saint's feast

6 day. I went there. And 25 households were expelled from their and

7 burned.

8 Q. That wasn't my question, Mr. Miladinovic. My question is very

9 simple: Are you aware that the Muslims in Glogova were expelled from

10 their homes in May 1992? It's a very simple question.

11 A. No. I don't know. I don't know about that, because I wasn't

12 there. I was in Tanici. And I had three houses there in the field, so I

13 didn't really move away from there for a while.

14 Q. A simple "yes," "no," or "I don't know" will suffice. We'll come

15 back to that.

16 Now, on the 8th of August, 1992, when the attack started, you were

17 in Mile Djukanovic's house in Brdo, weren't you?

18 A. Yes. No. No. I was in my house and I saw them burning those

19 houses. Again, you're taking me back, but you should ask me about the

20 truth. How could I have been at Mile Tanic's? His house was being set on

21 fire and I was supposed to be in his house. But I have my own house,

22 which is 20 to 30 metres away.

23 Q. That's what I'm trying to establish, Mr. Miladinovic, where you

24 were when the attack started. So you say you were in your house in

25 Tanici?

Page 3021

1 A. Yes.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Just remind him, make it clear to him that we are

3 dealing now only for the purpose of this question with the 8th of August

4 of 1992.

5 MR. JONES: Yes.

6 Q. Now, what you call Brdo, in Jezestica, the hill, that was on the

7 front lines, wasn't it, facing the Muslim villages of Jaglici and Cizmici?

8 MR. WUBBEN: Your Honour, I don't think -- I hate to interrupt,

9 but I don't think the witness will understand what's included in this

10 question, that is also a kind of awareness of being confronted with front

11 lines. I don't know what my learned friend means by that. It is the

12 first time it comes up and it is now slotted in in this question.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's see, because you are drawing conclusions for

14 the witness who is by no means someone to be underestimated. So put the

15 question again, please. The witness is fully aware of what he is being

16 asked. If he has a problem, he will tell me and I will clear things up

17 for him.


19 Q. Mr. Miladinovic, you've spoken of the villages of Jaglici and

20 Cizmici, which are Muslim villages; correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. They were right across from your village, Jezestica, which is a

23 Serb village; correct?

24 A. I don't know what you're trying to say.

25 Q. Well, what I'm getting at is this: Isn't it --

Page 3022

1 A. Would you please explain it to me differently. I don't know.

2 Q. Isn't it right that in August 1992 there were lines, trenches, in

3 your village in order to defend against an attack, let's say, from Cizmici

4 or Jaglici? That was your line, defence line.

5 A. No. No. I don't know. I said -- I told these lawyers I was

6 looking after the oxen, harvesting the corn, feeding the cattle, by

7 myself. I was there just to prevent anybody from coming in and strangling

8 the women. On the 8th of August, the wife had fallen asleep. I woke her

9 up. But it would have all burned in a minute, please.

10 Q. Mr. Miladinovic, do you know what trenches are? Trenches.

11 A. Trenches. Yes, I know what they are. I saw them being dug by

12 people in Jaglici.

13 Q. Trenches were also in Jezestica, weren't they? You had trenches.

14 A. No. They were there later, but not at that time. There's only a

15 road which goes quite deep and then you use that as a shelter.

16 Q. Okay. First of all, when were the trenches dug in Jezestica? You

17 said it was later. When?

18 A. Later, after the 8th of August.

19 Q. But before 7th of January, 1993, then?

20 A. Yes, before that.

21 Q. And before the trenches were dug, there was some other structure

22 used as a defence line; is that right? You mentioned a road which goes

23 quite deep and you used that as a shelter. Isn't that what you were

24 referring to as a defence line which existed before?

25 A. The road, like I said, we would take the road and bend down,

Page 3023

1 because its sides are quite steep, and then when you come out to Brdo,

2 it's quite high, and then you could see everything, if somebody wanted to

3 look, but I didn't.

4 Q. [Previous translation continues]... different way. You told us

5 you had a village guard to protect the houses. Weren't the village guards

6 patrolling up on Brdo? That's where they were patrolling, because that

7 was the line facing the Muslim villages.

8 A. Others had that. I myself and three more, altogether four of us,

9 we remained down there. We didn't go up there. There were others who

10 were on duty.

11 Q. Okay. On duty, patrolling in Brdo?

12 A. That's correct.

13 Q. Now, you told us the attack on that day first came from Rankovici.

14 Isn't it right that there was a recoilless cannon in Rankovici?

15 A. I'm hearing that from you now. I would have heard it when it went

16 off, at least. No, there was none of that. This is a lie, a complete

17 lie.

18 Q. You're saying there were no -- let's treat a broader area. You're

19 saying there was no heavy artillery in your area, and by that I would

20 include Siljkovici and Vresinje in August 1992?

21 A. I'm not aware of it being in Siljkovici, and there was none in

22 Jezestica. But I don't know about it being in Siljkovici. But I know

23 that there is nothing in Jezestica. Otherwise, you wouldn't have 45

24 people killed had they had something to defend themselves with.

25 Q. So in Siljkovici there was a possibility that there was Serb

Page 3024

1 artillery positioned, positioned there?

2 A. I don't know anything about that. I don't know.

3 Q. You told us the other day how you would call to each other from

4 hamlet to hamlet, because it was very peaceful and tranquil there. Surely

5 if a cannon was firing in Siljkovici, that's something you would have

6 heard.

7 A. I didn't go over there from Jezestica. I told you, I had cattle,

8 so until noon I was with Nikola and then in the afternoon I was with Mitar

9 and Milenko. Once we finished the guards duty, I went to my own house. I

10 would harvest the corn. I would cultivate the corn and so on. I'm

11 telling you the truth. I didn't do anything other than that.

12 Q. [Previous translation continues]... Mr. Miladinovic. And if you

13 see me making a gesture like this, it means I'd appreciate it if you would

14 stop, because the interpretation runs on and we will be here a long time

15 if it continues like this.

16 What I would like to ask you in relation to 8th of August still,

17 1992, is the following: You told us the other day that when you first saw

18 attackers, when you saw the attackers, you said that in that situation,

19 you don't go up and shake hands with the attackers; you ran as fast as you

20 can. That's what you told us. My question to you is this: Isn't that

21 what you did on the 8th of August, 1992, when you saw attackers arriving,

22 you ran for your life?

23 A. Shall I tell you about that? I was there.

24 Q. No, you don't need to tell your whole story. My question is:

25 Isn't it right, when you saw the attackers arriving, you ran as fast as

Page 3025

1 you could to get away?

2 A. And what did I say when I ran off, if you're recording this

3 correctly? Please don't skip over anything. Just read back what I said

4 when I fled. Don't be taking me back and forth.

5 Q. Mr. Miladinovic, if you like, I can read back to you what you

6 said. You were asked if you recognised any of the -- Mr. Miladinovic --

7 A. And you should read it.

8 Q. You said: "Who were they? I didn't exactly go there to shake

9 hands. How could I recognise them? How was I supposed to recognise them?

10 It was impossible to recognise them. You don't do that sort of thing in

11 Bosnia, go over there and shake hands. What you have to do is run as fast

12 as you can."

13 Now, that's what you said. My question is: Isn't that what you

14 did; you ran as fast as you could when you saw the attackers?

15 A. Why didn't you read back what I said? There are lawyers, there

16 are things there when I fled. Please.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Miladinovic, look at me, please. Please answer

18 the question that has been put to you. On the 8th of August, when you saw

19 the attackers attacking, did you stay there or did you flee?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said: Don't shoot, Chetniks.

21 Catch the Turks alive. And I ran away. And I came back. None of my

22 things were taken, not a single chicken, cow, or ox was taken away from

23 me. Nothing. But I fled.

24 MR. JONES: Yes, fled.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Next question, Mr. Jones.

Page 3026

1 MR. JONES: It's important, Your Honour, I need to pursue it.

2 Q. You fled. As soon as you had said those words you ran away;

3 that's right, isn't it?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. [Previous translation continues]... look back until you got to

6 Polje, down in the -- what you call Polje?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And when you reached Polje, that's, what, 500 metres from Brdo?

9 What's the distance between Polje and Brdo?

10 A. It depends. It can be closer or farther away. But it was about

11 800 metres, perhaps, from my house.

12 Q. Now, you told us on Friday that you saw what you call Turks

13 burning houses and that they were in civilian clothes and olive-drab

14 uniforms. Now, firstly, I want to ask you on that subject: You told us

15 today that your people, people who were killed, were also wearing

16 olive-drab uniforms. So that's right, isn't it? People in Jezestica,

17 Serbs, were also wearing olive-drab uniforms?

18 A. Some of them were and some were not.

19 Q. And the olive-drab uniforms that you're referring to are the old

20 uniforms of the JNA, aren't they?

21 A. That's true.

22 Q. Now, you're aware, aren't you --

23 A. Tito's uniforms. Did we understand each other?

24 Q. You're aware, aren't you, that Serbs, during the war wore the old

25 JNA uniforms, not Muslims because a Muslim in an old JNA uniform was

Page 3027

1 liable to get shot by his own side? Are you aware of that?

2 A. Maybe he killed a Serb and took it from him or maybe he was given

3 such a uniform. I don't know.

4 Q. Let me put it this way --

5 A. I don't know.

6 Q. Let me put it this way to you, Mr. Miladinovic. Serbs in

7 Jezestica wearing olive-drab uniforms, the attackers also wearing

8 olive-drab uniforms, don't you see a danger there that people are going to

9 end up killing people on the same side? I ask you that question because I

10 put it to you that that can't be right, that the attackers weren't wearing

11 olive-drab uniforms, as you've said.

12 A. I'm telling you for sure that that is correct. You have Naser

13 there. They had their own personal signs. Please stop messing with me.

14 I'm such an old person, and you're talking about some political things

15 here. I come here to tell you what happened.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Miladinovic, take it easy. It will soon be

17 over. I'm here to protect you. The other two Judges are here with me to

18 protect you, and we will protect you when there is a need to protect you.

19 But for the time being, I think there is no need. You are taking good

20 care of yourself. You are a very capable man. And please try to answer

21 the questions that build Jones is putting to you. The moment he puts a

22 question that we believe should not be put to you or that you shouldn't

23 answer, we will intervene and we will tell you, Mr. Miladinovic, you don't

24 need to answer this question. But so far, there haven't been any of these

25 questions.

Page 3028

1 Mr. Jones.

2 MR. JONES: Thank you, Your Honour.

3 Q. It's also right, isn't it, that there was nothing distinctive

4 marking out the attackers, if we can call them that, for the sake of

5 convenience, no distinctive markings, no insignia or anything of that

6 kind, which you saw?

7 A. I didn't see any badges.

8 Q. Isn't it right that actually most of the people were in civilian

9 clothes on that day, most of the people you saw attacking the village,

10 that they weren't in uniforms at all?

11 A. Some did and -- some were and some weren't.

12 Q. And it's right, isn't it, also that there were women among them?

13 A. The women were taking things away. They were looting. Of course

14 there were some. I've already said that before.

15 Q. It's right, isn't it, that they were banging pots and pans and

16 household objects to try and scare the Serbs away? Isn't that something

17 you saw?

18 A. That's correct. That's correct. I said it once, didn't I?

19 Q. Must have been a pretty pathetic sight the women who were reduced

20 to banging --

21 THE INTERPRETER: Would the counsel please speak into the

22 microphone. Otherwise the interpreters can't hear you.

23 MR. JONES: My apologies. I need to move the microphone closer.

24 Q. Were the children also among the attackers?

25 A. Those who were a bit older, not those that were still very young.

Page 3029

1 15, 16 years old, well, yes, they had to carry things too.

2 Q. These people were so hungry, weren't they, on that day that, as

3 you told us on Friday, despite the gunfire and the mortal danger they were

4 eating right there in the village that very day, you saw them eating

5 during the attack?

6 A. I don't think I understand your question.

7 Q. You saw women and children eating in your village on the 8th of

8 August, 1992, eating the objects they were taking, and not waiting to take

9 them away from the village; that's right, isn't it?

10 A. On the 8th of August, yes. They were taking things away and, sure

11 enough, they were eating whatever they found. Why wouldn't they have been

12 eating?

13 Q. They were desperately hungry, weren't they?

14 A. It's possible. How on earth should I know? I didn't really watch

15 them.

16 Q. I'm going to come back to what you saw. But you've used the

17 word "Turks." Just for the record, the word "Turk" is very insulting for

18 Muslims, isn't it? It's not a kind term to use.

19 A. Please, didn't I say that already? Since World War II, we used to

20 call them Turks. I remember that as a child. And then Tito came along

21 and proclaimed them undeclared. So they were Muslims. I am from Bosnia.

22 I am from Bosnia. I don't know what else to call them.

23 Q. Doesn't it imply that they should go back to Turkey and that they

24 don't belong in Bosnia, using that term?

25 A. I don't think you got my meaning, what I was trying to say.

Page 3030

1 Q. You wouldn't call a Muslim friend a Turk to his face, would you?

2 A. Why shouldn't I? I used to go and see them. I'd visit them in

3 their homes. That was the sort of tragedy that happened. I never thought

4 this would turn out this way. I never had the faintest idea that it would

5 be World War II all over again. We used to visit each other. I gave

6 Ibrahim Muratovic, a Muslim from my village, money so he could build a

7 house.

8 Q. Let's go back to the attack. The fact is, isn't it, that you

9 didn't see any houses being set fire to on the 8th of August because, as

10 you've told us, as soon as you saw the attackers and shouted, you fled as

11 fast as you could, so you didn't actually see anything set on fire?

12 A. God forbid. Why are you mucking me about like this? I was clear

13 enough. I was running and houses were being set ablaze. Same thing all

14 over again. We can't go on like this for 16 days, can we? Of course I

15 did see. It was 20 metres away from me. He was exercising command. My

16 house and Nikola's house, 30 metres from where I was standing. And again

17 you're taking me back to that. I must have said this over 15 times now.

18 Please.

19 Q. Mr. Miladinovic, I know you're very keen to say that you saw

20 houses burning, but what we have to establish is what you saw. You told

21 us that you fled as soon as you shouted at the attackers. You told us you

22 didn't turn back to look. You told us you went to Polje, which is 800

23 metres away I think you said. So isn't it correct that in fact you did

24 not see houses being set fire to. You returned later and assumed that's

25 that what had happened but you didn't see it with your own eyes?

Page 3031

1 A. My God. God forbid.

2 Q. We'll move on.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Let me intervene myself here, because we are back to

4 the same position we were when we were talking of the 7th of January.

5 I'll just ask him one maximum two questions.

6 On the 8th of August, on the 8th of August, there was this attack,

7 and you fled. And you know, because you told us, that the number of

8 houses were set on fire on that day. I know, because you have already

9 said it, that you saw them burning, you saw these houses burning. Did you

10 actually see with your own eyes anyone burning any of these houses, either

11 while you were fleeing or after that you had already reached Polje? Did

12 you see any one of these houses being set on fire? Not burning, but being

13 set on fire.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Please, on the 8th of August, as I

15 said, there may be as many as three or four statements back in Bosnia, and

16 we have some here. It was an all-out attack against those villages and I

17 was there when it burnt, when the villages were burning. 30 metres from

18 where I was standing, the fire reached me and then I realised it was time

19 to run, so I ran into the field. Two or three hours I was back.

20 Everything was ablaze. I found dead bodies there. Do you want me to go

21 through the whole story again giving you their first and last names?

22 JUDGE AGIUS: No, Mr. Miladinovic. I only want you to tell me

23 whether you saw -- not that you saw these houses on fire. That you have

24 already told us. What I want from you is only one answer: Did you see

25 any of these houses being set on fire, or did you just see them burning?

Page 3032

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You want me to read out the names?


3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Whose houses were burning? Of

4 course I saw it. Of course I saw it.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Did you see them burning?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I did see them burning. Three

7 hours later, I came back, and everything was burning, my house and my

8 relatives' houses, I said.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: But did you see any of those houses at the time when

10 they were set on fire or were being set on fire, or were you escaping at

11 that time?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At the very outset, I saw them

13 burned down all the way again. Am I not being clear enough? Three hours

14 later when I was back --

15 JUDGE AGIUS: You are not being -- I am afraid you are not being

16 clear. We are not interested, because you have already told us, in what

17 you saw three hours later. What we are interested to know is whether you

18 were there seeing any one of these particular houses at the very same

19 moment when it was being set on fire.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Fire. 50 of those houses I wasn't

21 there when perhaps between 20 and 30 were being set alight. Did I run?

22 Of course I ran. 30 houses burnt down. I saw it with my own eyes.

23 Please don't try to confuse me, please.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: You haven't helped us much, Mr. Miladinovic. We

25 have started back where we started with no answer from you.

Page 3033

1 Yes, Mr. Jones.

2 MR. JONES: Yes. I'll proceed from that point of having no answer

3 to the question.

4 Q. It's right, isn't it, Mr. Miladinovic, that the Serbs

5 counter-attacked that day, the 8th of August, 1992?

6 A. Not correct. You said that wrong.

7 Q. Well, I'd refer you to a statement you gave in the year 2000 to

8 ICTY investigators.

9 MR. JONES: For the record, it's ERN 00940535, page 3, third

10 sentence: "By that time, the reinforcements came from the Territorial

11 Defence and we followed them and saw the Muslims withdrawing."

12 Q. Do you remember making that statement to ICTY investigators that

13 the Serb Territorial Defence arrived and forced the Muslims to withdraw?

14 You're going to have to speak louder for the --

15 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters didn't get the answer.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

17 MR. JONES: Could the witness be shown --

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not familiar with that.

19 MR. JONES: If the witness could be shown a copy of his statement.

20 Do Your Honours have the --

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. We have the version in English, and we also

22 have the version in B/C/S. I don't think it's going to serve you any

23 purpose to show it to him. I would just tell him that you are going to

24 read a part from his statement, and then if he wants to see it, we will

25 show it to him.

Page 3034

1 MR. JONES: Okay.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: And then ask him whether it's true or not.

3 MR. JONES: Yes.

4 Q. I'm referring, Mr. Miladinovic, to a statement which in the

5 English has been signed by you as being truthful, and you said -- I put it

6 to you that you said: "I saw that some of them were in old reserve

7 service uniforms and some of them in civils. At that time the

8 reinforcements came from the Territorial Defence and we followed them and

9 saw the Muslims withdrawing. However, by this time all the houses in the

10 downhill area of the village were set on fire," and it goes on.

11 Isn't that right, that the Territorial Defence arrived that very

12 day, 8th of August, 1992, and that's something which you told

13 investigators when you were interviewed about this? Let me put it a

14 different way, if you're having trouble answering.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: No. Let me answer the question. I think it's clear

16 enough, Mr. Jones.

17 Do you remember saying this to the investigators of the

18 Prosecutor, of the Office of the Prosecutor, Mr. Miladinovic, namely, that

19 after the attack, the Territorial Defence, the Serbian Territorial

20 Defence, arrived and that you, together with others, followed them, and

21 you saw the Muslims withdrawing? Do you remember saying this to the

22 Prosecution or not?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Please. On the 8th of August, we

24 were down in the field. Someone came, some army or other, and went up.

25 Please.

Page 3035

1 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So you do remember mentioning this to

2 the Prosecution; no?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. All right. Mr. Jones, you may proceed.

5 MR. JONES: Thank you, Your Honour.

6 Q. And didn't the army which came counter-attack with grenades and

7 incendiary devices which also caused damage to the houses on Brdo?

8 A. Not a single shell was fired. They had some weapons and they came

9 up and there was a withdrawal. Then they strew flour and beans along the

10 road to Cizmici.

11 Q. They were fleeing, fleeing for their lives, and dropping the food

12 which they had taken from your village when the Serb army

13 counter-attacked?

14 A. Yes. Yes.

15 Q. It's right, isn't it, that not all houses, the houses in Brdo,

16 were destroyed on the 8th of August. Firstly, some were damaged

17 beforehand; for example, the house of your son Djordjo Miladinovic was not

18 damaged in August, but in July?

19 A. It was set alight and razed to the ground.

20 Q. In July 1992?

21 A. The 20th. June, not July. June.

22 Q. And also the houses of Radojka Milanovic and Vlado Milanovic were

23 not destroyed in August but in June?

24 A. Radomir and this man, Vlado Jovanovic. Their houses remained. I

25 wasn't lying. Those two were intact. They were not destroyed on the 8th

Page 3036

1 of August. They came later.

2 Q. Isn't it also right: You told us that - and this is going ahead

3 to the later attack, in January - that you thought of burning your own

4 house --

5 A. Slowly, please.

6 Q. Sorry. I'll go slowly. On the 7th of January, you thought of

7 burning your own house as you were leaving, but in fact you didn't do it.

8 It's just something you considered, in it?

9 A. Perish the thought.

10 Q. That's what you told us today, was it not, that you thought:

11 Maybe I should burn my house before I run. And I ask you that question --

12 A. No. You didn't understand me. It was the other man in Kajici

13 where I was.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: That's how we understood him. It wasn't --

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I was with Mitar Nikolic, Mitar

16 was the one who wanted to do that. I would never have wanted to burn my

17 own house, because I was the one who built it up. I may not be an

18 educated man, but it seems that I have a better understanding of things

19 than you do. Please don't ask me this sort of question. You're twisting

20 things about. This is an international court of justice.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Enough, Mr. Miladinovic.

22 Mr. Jones, please.


24 Q. Mr. Miladinovic, my apologies if I suggested that you considered

25 it. But isn't it right that Serbs would sometimes burn their own houses

Page 3037

1 or barns rather than allow it to be captured by the enemy, when they had

2 to withdraw? Not you, but other Serbs would do that?

3 A. Not a single citizen of Jezestica would ever do that. I swear

4 upon my life that I'm telling the truth.

5 Q. Now, question about livestock which went missing after the 8th of

6 August, 1992. Are you able to tell us how much livestock was actually

7 stolen as opposed to livestock which got loose during the attack and just

8 wandered off? Is that something you can help us with or are you not able

9 to say?

10 A. Yes. Yes, I can.

11 Q. Are you able to say precisely which cows were stolen and which

12 cows --

13 A. Precisely.

14 Q. Which chickens ran away as opposed to being stolen by someone?

15 You can help us with that? Isn't it correct, Mr. Miladinovic, that

16 anyone --

17 A. I can.

18 Q. -- that anyone, old men, women, or children, could have taken

19 livestock, and equally, foxes or wild animals could have destroyed the

20 livestock? You're not able to say cow by cow, pig by pig, chicken by

21 chicken, what happened to each one?

22 A. It was all burnt down immediately, and everything was being taken.

23 And chickens and oxen and hens taken away. Nothing there. Do you

24 understand me? The cow goes and the ox goes and the goats go, and

25 everything that was there just goes.

Page 3038

1 Q. You don't know, do you, who took any of those livestock?

2 A. And who was setting fire to things and who was killing the people.

3 Q. I'll move on. Didn't you also say, and wouldn't you agree, that

4 actually, I think these were your words, that it would be a shame to leave

5 livestock there while the village is burning because they could actually

6 get killed during the course of the burning, so it's better to evacuate

7 them?

8 A. They had driven the cattle away. It was -- the cattle was better

9 off that way than being burned alive. Well, you had to make some use of

10 it. I think that was a good idea. Those were the times. It was wartime,

11 after all. That's how it was, and that's that.

12 Q. Thank you. Now, after the attack of the 8th of August, 1992, you

13 said that you received rubber boots and shirts. Now, who provided you

14 with rubber boots and shirts?

15 A. I don't know. I don't know.

16 Q. Well, how did you come upon them?

17 A. How am I supposed to say who from, who brought it? It may have

18 been someone else. I don't know.

19 Q. You didn't simply return home and find rubber boots and shirts in

20 your wardrobe, did you? I mean, these were issued, were they not, by the

21 army, the VRS, as part of a uniform?

22 A. What exactly do you mean, "issued."

23 Q. Were you provided with uniforms after the 8th of August, 1992?

24 A. No.

25 Q. I'm going to move on to the 7th of January, 1993. Now, isn't it

Page 3039

1 right that it was dark when the attack started?

2 A. Please.

3 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters cannot follow the proceedings

4 because the witness is constantly interrupting the speakers. The

5 interpreters cannot follow the proceedings because the witness is

6 constantly interrupting the speakers.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We're done with the 8th of August.

8 I don't think so.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Miladinovic, may I please remind you, and please

10 obey me for my sake, that you answer the questions that are put to you.

11 And if you want to say something else, put up your finger, draw my

12 attention, and I will decide after consulting with the other two Judges

13 whether to give you permission to go ahead or not. But while others are

14 speaking, please refrain from speaking yourself. Because here we have a

15 system of interpretation. People have to -- behind those glasses have to

16 listen to what Mr. Jones is saying, to what I am saying, to what you are

17 saying, and then everything has to be translated, either into Serbo-Croat

18 or into English or into French. Yes. Tell me.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'll be brief. When we set out --

20 when we started with the 8th of August, I think we should finish with

21 that. The people who were killed, I can tell him about all this misery

22 and then the whole world and you who are here, and he's mucking me about.

23 And about Christmas, the things that I forgot to say. Please.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Miladinovic, please try to understand that if we

25 were to allow every single witness in this Tribunal to come over and tell

Page 3040

1 us the entire story according to him or to her, we would never finish.

2 The system doesn't work like that. You answer the questions that are put

3 to you. When Mr. Jones is finished, if there is anything else you would

4 like to add, tell me what you would like to add and we will see what we

5 can grant you to say. But for the time being, you need -- for the time

6 being, and please don't interrupt me, for the time being, you need to

7 answer the questions that Mr. Jones is putting to you.

8 So, Mr. Jones, now move to the 7th of January, please, and let's

9 try and finish as quickly as we can.

10 MR. JONES: Yes. Yes, indeed, Your Honour. All the questions

11 I'll put will require only a yes or a no answer from the witness.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: That's what you hope.

13 MR. JONES: Indeed. Hope springs eternal.

14 Q. Mr. Miladinovic, it was dark, wasn't it, on the 7th of January,

15 1993, when the attack started? It was 5.30 in the morning?

16 A. Well, of course it was. But I didn't finish what I was saying

17 before. I'm just not happy with this, with not being allowed to finish.

18 I don't think this is being done properly.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, but let us decide. We are the Judges here,

20 Mr. Miladinovic, and as I explained to you, there are rules that have to

21 be followed here.

22 Yes, Mr. Jones. Next question.


24 Q. You saw -- when you saw flames on that morning, you didn't know

25 how houses had been set on fire, if they had been set on fire by people or

Page 3041

1 during the attack, do you; you simply saw flames?

2 JUDGE AGIUS: No, that's not fair, Mr. Jones, because he was asked

3 about the torching of houses before on the 7th of January and he was very

4 categoric that there were some -- few houses that he saw being set on fire

5 with his own eyes. So the way you've put it, you're asking him to go back

6 on what he has already testified under oath.

7 MR. JONES: No. Well, Your Honour, I meant to refer to houses

8 which were burning before the ones which he says he saw. But it doesn't

9 matter. I'll move on.



12 Q. You also told us that you saw thousands and thousands of people

13 attacking the village that day? Isn't it right that these were thousands

14 of men, women, children, people in civilian clothes, an absolute mixed bag

15 of people?

16 A. Yes. I did say that. You want me to go through that again?

17 Q. No.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no.

19 A. It was on the 7th -- no.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Finish. You have agreed that that was the case,

21 that this huge number of persons was a mixed crowd.

22 Next question, Mr. Jones.


24 Q. It was absolute chaos, wasn't it, that morning, a chaotic scene?

25 A. Yes.

Page 3042

1 Q. You've said how you saw people in all sorts of clothes. You said

2 black and white clothes, "like we had." Now, you've told us that you

3 didn't have uniforms, so when you say "black and white clothes like we

4 had," you mean civilian clothes again, do you?

5 A. Yes. Yes.

6 Q. And again --

7 A. I'm just not happy with the way this is being conducted.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Wubben.

9 MR. WUBBEN: Yes. Black and white clothes like civilians, I don't

10 know what my learned friend mean with it, but he doesn't make it clear

11 whenever he was referring then to the clothes compared with the villagers

12 of Jezestica or the clothes the attackers were wearing, while meanwhile he

13 had put straightforward in his answering on his examination and using the

14 label of it, which I will not repeat.


16 MR. JONES: I don't see that that clarifies matters but --

17 JUDGE AGIUS: It doesn't in the least.

18 Mr. Miladinovic, please look at me. You mentioned earlier and

19 you've just been reminded that in the course of your testimony you said

20 that the attackers were wearing white and black clothes "like we were."

21 These white and black clothes, were they white and black uniforms or white

22 and black civilian clothes? What did you mean when you said "white and

23 black clothes, like we had"? Civilian clothes or uniforms?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] White, like snow, camouflage, to

25 attract more easily, or black, glass, if you know what a glass is,

Page 3043

1 camouflage. Everyone was camouflaging. That's what I saw.


3 Q. When you said "like we had," you've also told us that you weren't

4 given uniforms. So did you have uniforms or were they -- these people

5 wearing what you were wearing; namely, civilian clothes? Which is it? It

6 can't be both.

7 A. The question is not clear to me. You need to repeat it, please.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. Amongst the Serbian population that was

9 defending the town of Jezestica, were there any wearing white camouflage

10 uniforms, among the Serbian, your colleagues, in other words. Were there

11 any wearing white uniforms?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Were there any wearing black camouflage uniforms

14 amongst the Serb --

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no. Not that either. No. I'm

16 speaking about the Serbs now. They were wearing different clothing.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: And now let's talk about the attackers. Were there

18 any attackers that you noticed who were wearing white camouflage uniforms?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did see that. I told you that.


21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Black clothes.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: White or black, or both?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Both white and black. On one side,

24 they were people in white clothing, and then on the other, in black, and

25 so on. That's how it was.

Page 3044

1 JUDGE AGIUS: And you are right, because you already told us this

2 before, but when you mentioned it before, you said that they were wearing

3 white and black, "like we were," meaning like the Serbs were. Were the

4 Serbs wearing the same kind of clothes or not? Because if they weren't,

5 you need to explain to us why before you said they were wearing white and

6 black, "like we were."

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember that. I don't

8 remember that I said that.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: But you did. I can assure you that you did. And

10 Mr. Jones is perfectly right in questioning you on this, because it calls

11 for an explanation. Because if, as you've just stated, the Serbs

12 defending the town of Jezestica were not wearing any white uniforms or

13 were not wearing any black uniforms, why did you before say that the

14 Muslims were -- or the attackers were wearing white and black

15 uniforms, "like we were," if you weren't wearing white and black uniforms,

16 why did you say "like we were"? Or was it --

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Was it a mistake of the tongue, a lapse --

19 Yes, Mr. Jones, I think you can proceed to something different.

20 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear what the witness

21 said.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Don't worry.


24 Q. Mr. Miladinovic, again on that day, you were afraid and running

25 for your life, were you not; you were fleeing the scene as soon as you

Page 3045

1 could?

2 JUDGE AGIUS: We're talking of the 7th of January now?

3 MR. JONES: 7th of January, 1993.

4 A. What would you like me to tell you? Could you please repeat that.

5 Q. Isn't it right that on that day, seeing another attack, that you

6 were again concerned with fleeing and not sticking around?

7 A. We stayed there for a while. There were eight of us there, and

8 when we saw that from Jaglici, the whole field was full of soldiers, and

9 from Simici and Magasici, there was a group coming to the attack. And

10 then on the other side, from Jaglici, there was a bunch of people there:

11 This was the attack at 5.30. So I was on guard. I happened to be on

12 guard, and I was observing that. And I said: Brothers, let's hope that

13 we stay alive. This is not turning out to be a good Christmas for us. I

14 didn't even eat anything. I didn't eat any pecanica [phoen]. I left it

15 all behind, the cured meat, the rakija. I left it all to the Turks.

16 Q. So you told us, nonetheless, that you saw 10 to 15 houses being

17 set on fire that day. You told us again that these were by, I think six

18 people, you said, in olive-grey uniforms. Now, my first question is:

19 Where were you when you saw these houses burning?

20 A. Please. Again you are taking me back to the 8th of August. This

21 happened on the 8th of August. I said that before. And you're taking me

22 constantly back to there. I've already said that 20 times. Let's go to

23 the 7th of January. You're constantly taking me back to the 8th of

24 August. Please. I told you what I saw.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Miladinovic, please stop. He is not taking you

Page 3046

1 back to the 8th of August. The question that he put to you refers to the

2 7th of January. And please try to answer. You said earlier on that you

3 saw on the 7th of January some houses being set on fire. While they were

4 being set on fire. Mr. Jones would like to know the exact position of

5 yourself, where you were, at the time when you claim to have seen these

6 houses being set on fire. Where were you?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Please. On the 7th of January, I

8 was in front of my house when, like I said, they were coming in camouflage

9 uniforms and in black. I saw on one side four people; then on the other

10 side I saw six men.


12 Q. The answer, then, is you were at your house. Now, what I want to

13 ask you is: When you were standing outside your house and all these

14 attackers came, some or many of whom had weapons, surely you weren't just

15 standing in front of your house 10 or 15 metres away watching all this

16 happen, because you would have got shot or you would have been liable to

17 get shot. So my question to you is: Were you really outside your house

18 watching all this happen?

19 A. It's true I was. But I fled up to Brdo. From those three houses

20 when you go up to Brdo, above Tanici, then you can see the whole of

21 Kravica spreading before you. And only about 20 houses is it not possible

22 to see. And then you can read that I watched them as they were burning

23 it. This is a woods. It's a sort of sheltered spot in Jezestica.

24 Q. Mr. Miladinovic, you told us on Friday that you could barely

25 see -- you couldn't see a kilometre away. I think you said that it was

Page 3047

1 hard for you to see even 20 metres away. I'm not entirely sure what your

2 evidence was now. But you've told us today that Brdo is 800 metres from

3 Polje. So you're not saying, are you, that from Brdo, 800 metres away,

4 you could see people going into houses and setting fire to them and all

5 the things you've described?

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Maybe he wouldn't be able to identify them, but not

7 to see individuals at 800 metres, come on, Mr. Jones.

8 MR. JONES: I don't think it's possible to see colours at 800

9 metres, but ...

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Of course you can see colours at 800 metres,

11 especially if you have green as contrast.

12 MR. JONES: Right. Well, let's turn to these people who you saw

13 and you've told us that you saw on the 7th of January, again, people in

14 olive-drab uniforms.

15 Q. So is it right that on the 8th of August, there were people in

16 olive-drab uniforms setting fire to houses and also on the 7th of January,

17 1993, people in olive-drab uniforms, and they were the only ones who were

18 actually setting fire to houses? Is that correct?

19 A. On the 8th, that is correct. As for the 7th of January, that is a

20 different team. There were more soldiers there who -- there were many

21 soldiers. Everything was surrounded. Kravica and all of the other Serb

22 villages. And at a certain point in time, all -- there was shooting

23 erupting from all over the place.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. We need to have a break now.

25 MR. JONES: Okay. Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 3048

1 JUDGE AGIUS: 25 minutes. How much more do you have with this

2 witness?

3 MR. JONES: Probably half an hour.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: And do you have a re-examination, Mr. Wubben?

5 MR. WUBBEN: If so, limited.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. You need to think whether to keep the

7 other witness here or whether -- because if it's half an hour plus --

8 basically three-quarters of an hour that we have left, plus there is

9 another matter that I would like to bring to your attention and which I

10 will need to address at the end of today's hearing. So please decide

11 whether to retain the witness, the next witness here, or whether to send

12 him to the hotel.

13 MR. WUBBEN: Do you want to learn this now?

14 JUDGE AGIUS: No. It's up to you. I mean, I'm just telling you

15 this so that you know how to make your own arrangements.

16 MR. WUBBEN: We will. Thank you, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. So it's 25-minutes break.

18 --- Recess taken at 12.32 p.m.

19 --- On resuming at 1.02 p.m.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's continue.

21 MR. JONES: I think Mr. Wubben wishes to say something.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Wubben.

23 MR. WUBBEN: Very short. Thank you. Very short, Your Honour. We

24 sent the projected witness subsequently planned, we sent him back.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I thank you.

Page 3049

1 Yes. One moment, Mr. Jones, because age takes precedence here.

2 Yes, Mr. Miladinovic.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I forgot one person. At Christmas,

4 I forgot Milovan Ostojic. Please. And then I have the place where my

5 sister was married, my cousin. That's where I got married, the village of

6 Zagornik [phoen]. I can give you more details if you wish. I can tell

7 you immediately. That's where one child was captured.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: We do not require that information. We know all

9 about it already.

10 Mr. Jones, please.

11 MR. JONES: Thank you, Your Honour.

12 Q. Mr. Miladinovic, before the break, we left off with you in Brdo,

13 above the village of Jezestica, on the 7th of January, 1993. Looking down

14 at the thousands of people who were swarming into the Polje part of

15 Jezestica. And now so I want to ask you your impression from the hill,

16 looking down at all of this. Isn't it right that what you saw was

17 effectively a swarm of people, thousands of people, all among the houses,

18 mixed up among themselves, in other words, a scene of complete

19 pandemonium?

20 MR. WUBBEN: Objection, Your Honour. When it comes to thousands

21 of people, I have put forward to this witness a clarifying question that

22 he saw indeed many people, but when it comes to the attack of Jezestica,

23 he limited that number.

24 MR. JONES: It was a thousand.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't think he limited that number. He repeated

Page 3050

1 that it was thousands.

2 MR. WUBBEN: My learned friend confirmed that it was a thousand.

3 Yes, indeed. That's what I recall. Not thousands.



6 Q. Mr. Miladinovic, this is a thousand people, is it not, in a very

7 small area of your village that you saw?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And isn't it right that these people, women, children, civilians,

10 were all mixed up among each other, among the houses, and it would be very

11 difficult for you to actually see what any one of them was doing?

12 A. That's correct.

13 Q. Now, you spoke earlier about groups of people, as if there were

14 one group doing one thing and another group doing another thing. But

15 isn't it right that in fact what you saw is certain activities - looting,

16 burning, attacking - that it was all happening at the same time, in the

17 same area?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. So isn't it also right that from your spot on the hill, 800 metres

20 away, you weren't noticing this person has entered this house with a flask

21 or container, and this other person has come out of this other house

22 carrying this item. You weren't actually able to see that precisely, what

23 was happening in each case, were you?

24 A. I said that I saw them on the 8th of August, but on the 7th, for

25 Christmas, it was different.

Page 3051

1 Q. Couldn't it be that what you saw on the 7th of January, 1993 was

2 fighters going through your village and then women and children and

3 civilians behind them doing whatever they had to do?

4 A. Correct.

5 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not catch what the witness

6 said.


8 Q. Would you repeat your answer, please, Witness. You said trebelor

9 [phoen] or something.

10 A. About what? Because I asked to speak or do you want me to repeat

11 something else? I'm not sure exactly what it is you would like.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Jones, please proceed.

13 MR. JONES: I'll move on.

14 Q. Isn't it also right that for days after the attack on the 7th of

15 January, 1993, that there were marauding bands of scavenging people taking

16 whatever they could from houses, food, and indeed roof tiles and anything

17 which they needed to survive that winter? If you can help us with that.

18 A. Yes. This was being done by the Turks in my village. Yes, that

19 is correct.

20 Q. [Previous translation continues]... days after the attack of the

21 7th of January, 1993, not just on the day of the attack?

22 A. Again, it's not quite clear. I did not perhaps clarify that.

23 Perhaps I need to give a better explanation of that.

24 Q. In fact, I'll come back to that. Let me ask you first about your

25 cow which you said was recovered. You got your cow back, I think, after

Page 3052

1 the 7th of January. Can you tell us first of all when that was?

2 A. What was when? That was when Srebrenica fell. A man brought it

3 to Bratunac. I can recognise my cow. He found it in Pale. It's my own

4 cow. I've had it -- I'd had it for 15 years.

5 Q. And that was a Serb who gave you back your cow?

6 A. He didn't give it back to me. I begged him to do so, but he

7 didn't return it to me. And my oxen had been taken to Cizmici, and I can

8 tell you who did that by name if you want.

9 Q. Simply this: The person who wouldn't give your cow back to you

10 was a Serb, wasn't he?

11 A. Yes. He's a Serb. What is true is true. I am an old man and I

12 don't need to lie. So don't you either burden me in different ways. I

13 need to know that exactly. Because I didn't go to any schools. I'm a

14 self-taught man.

15 Q. Now, can you tell us when you returned to your village after the

16 7th of January, 1993, on what date you first went back?

17 A. Yes. I don't know the exact date, but I returned after 70 days to

18 gather the dead. I stated that and I could see that.

19 Q. Now, you told us how you went back to the village and you gathered

20 the bodies. Isn't it right that in those 70 days, wild animals could have

21 caused a lot if not all of the damage to the corpses which you found?

22 A. Please. I did not see how it happened, but this is how it was: My

23 son was buried. His head was cut off and then it was removed, as well as

24 the legs and the arms. But the body was buried. And the others I found

25 out in the open.

Page 3053

1 Q. Yes. And you're familiar with this area, aren't you? It's right,

2 isn't it, that there are wild animals in the woods and forests which would

3 be very likely to interfere with corpses which are left out in the open

4 and which could have caused them to be scattered in the way that you found

5 them?

6 A. It is correct that there are animals. I'm not going to lie about

7 it. It's true that there are animals around, but I didn't see how this

8 came about. But there were no bodies, there were no heads. There's no

9 animal that could eat a head. It's hard. But there were no heads.

10 Q. And isn't it also right that that was the first opportunity you

11 had, 70 days later, to see the damage which had been done to the houses in

12 Jezestica, and Polje in particular?

13 A. I saw everything when I came back. I went around everywhere. We

14 had a mill. That was also set on fire. And that's a shame. It's a

15 waste. Because you could use it to bake bread. There was also the local

16 community hall. That was all smashed up. I didn't write down that these

17 people were killed by Turks. That's what the sign said. It said that

18 these were victims of the fascists from World War II. I don't see why

19 this had to be destroyed and smashed.

20 Q. But isn't it right that in the 70 days in between you leaving your

21 village and coming back, a great deal of the damage which you saw could

22 have occurred or could have been done by people who in the meantime passed

23 through the area and could have been done indeed by a Serb counter-attack

24 to capture, recapture that area? It's possible, isn't it?

25 A. May I say something about that? No, no. I must say something.

Page 3054

1 Nobody went there, in that area, during those 70 days. No Serb went

2 there. Not one Serb went there.

3 Q. In fact, you weren't there during the 70 days, so you didn't see

4 anything of what happened in that time, did you?

5 A. I guarantee that 100 per cent. I guarantee 100 per cent that no

6 one went there.

7 Q. Now, you've told us that when you went back to the village that

8 nothing was left standing. But you also told us that some houses only

9 suffered 20 per cent damage, whereas others were more damaged. That's

10 right, isn't it?

11 A. Yes, that's correct. That's correct. That's what I said. Those

12 in Polje were more solidly built, as opposed to the ones in Brdo which

13 were not so solid. Even the chickens were burned. I had a well, so I put

14 in two canisters of jam into this well. If you know what this looks like,

15 it only has a kind of wooden roof over it. And even that was burned.

16 Nothing was left. All the buildings that were made out of lighter

17 material.

18 MR. JONES: I'd ask if the witness could be shown one of the

19 photographic exhibits 01087870. I can provide my copy. I don't know if

20 otherwise it could be put on the monitor. In fact, I wonder if it could

21 be placed on the ELMO. That might be best.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no. There's no need.

23 MR. JONES: So that we can all see it, Mr. Miladinovic.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot recognise this, but you're

25 free to look at it. But really, I cannot recognise it. There's no need

Page 3055

1 to do that. I don't need it. I can't recognise it.


3 Q. Looking at that house - even if you don't recognise it - isn't it

4 right that that's actually been damaged by mortar, mortar fire, rather

5 than by fire?

6 JUDGE AGIUS: What makes you think that the witness is in a

7 position or is capable of answering that question, Mr. Jones.

8 MR. JONES: He survived the war, Your Honour, and he's no doubt

9 seen mortar damage. If the witness can help with that. Otherwise --

10 JUDGE AGIUS: No, you can't -- Mr. Miladinovic, can you answer

11 that question? Would you be able by looking at this photo to tell us how

12 that house came to be damaged that way?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Would you like me to tell you? A

14 shell hit it.


16 Q. A shell hit it. Precisely. Thank you.

17 I'm going to move on to another area altogether, so we can remove

18 the picture.

19 MR. WUBBEN: Your Honour, at the same time, I noticed that there

20 was something written down this photograph, and I don't know what it was,

21 but when it is block letters, the witness stated on Friday --

22 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no. It has been folded. The paper has been

23 folded.

24 MR. JONES: Certainly my copy was folded and he's being shown

25 nothing more than the photograph.

Page 3056

1 MR. WUBBEN: Okay.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no. It was folded, because I was keeping a

3 watchful eye because I knew there was writing there and I also heard

4 Mr. Jones to tell the usher to fold it, to hide the handwriting.

5 MR. WUBBEN: Thank you for this clarification.

6 MR. JONES: And since the witness is illiterate, it shouldn't

7 matter too much in any event.

8 MR. WUBBEN: And again my learned friend - and that's towards the

9 Judges - he stated that on Friday that he could read block letters.


11 MR. WUBBEN: Again.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's proceed and not waste time on these petty

13 issues.


15 Q. Mr. Miladinovic, I'm going to ask you some final questions now

16 about the start of the war, so I'm actually going back in time.

17 First of all, if you can help us with this: Isn't it right that

18 people from Serbia came to Jezestica to help you fight against what you

19 would call the Turks, volunteers from Serbia?

20 A. I don't know about that.

21 Q. Well, you know Andjelko Mladjenovic, don't you? Or you knew him.

22 A. Andjelko Mladjenovic. Of course I know him. I know him.

23 Q. [Previous translation continues]... came from Serbia to fight in

24 your area?

25 A. He was born there.

Page 3057

1 Q. Do you know --

2 A. He was born there. He had a brother named Dragan, who was killed,

3 and his mother was killed too.

4 Q. Do you know Mihajlo Uzelac? Is that name familiar to you?

5 Mihajlo Uzelac?

6 A. First time I hear of the name.

7 Q. Now, you told us that the war started with Serbs being expelled

8 from Bukova Glava in May 1992. But isn't it right that Serbs had been

9 killing and expelling Muslims from the Podrinje area from mid-April 1992?

10 A. Where from? Can you repeat?

11 Q. [Previous translation continues]... from the Drina River, from the

12 Drina Valley. From your area, Bratunac municipality.

13 A. I don't exactly know what you're driving at. I'm not sure what I

14 should answer. I don't know.

15 Q. Let's deal with something closer to your village. In Hranca, are

16 you aware that on the 2nd of May 1992, so before the 5th of May, 1992,

17 Serbs killed four Muslims, burnt 43 houses, and later killed 19 more

18 Muslims from Hranca in the Vuk Karadzic school? Is that something you

19 might have heard about?

20 A. I'm not familiar with that. Quite frankly, I work as a farmer. I

21 never budged from my village until the 7th of January. I said it about a

22 hundred times.

23 Q. Well, we know about --

24 A. My wife left for Serbia. That's sort of thing.

25 Q. Thank you, Mr. Miladinovic. We know that you know about Bijeceva

Page 3058

1 because you mentioned it on Friday. So let's turn to Bijeceva which I

2 think you'll confirm was a Muslim village before the war, Bijeceva, wasn't

3 it?

4 A. Bijeceva. I said a while ago that Bijeceva, didn't I, or should I

5 say it. Do you know what a mill is, a flour mill?

6 Q. Mr. Miladinovic, could you please just answer my question. Isn't

7 it right that Bijeceva was a Muslim village before the war?

8 A. Not all of it. Not all of it. There were also homes in

9 Bukova Glava, the village of Bijeceva. What I'm telling you is true.

10 Q. There were Muslims living in Bijeceva in May 1992, weren't there?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. I'm going to ask if the usher could put a map on the ELMO, and

13 it's really for our benefit as much as for the witness just so we can see

14 these places. I've highlighted --

15 A. It's pointless for me to look at this.

16 Q. That's fine, Mr. Miladinovic. It's for us.

17 A. It's pointless. And the image is a slant.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Don't worry about it, Mr. Miladinovic. This is not

19 for you; it's for us.

20 MR. JONES: Could you zoom out a bit more. That's fine.

21 Q. And I've highlighted Jezestica, Glogova, Bijeceva, Bukova Glava

22 and Zagoni?

23 Q. Mr. Miladinovic, do you know Radoje Gvozdenovic from Magasici?

24 A. Radivoje Gvozdenovic? That's not where he's from. He's from

25 Zagoni. You know you're make a mistake there.

Page 3059

1 Q. Zagoni. Thank you. For that correction.

2 A. He's a relative of mine. The son of my sister.

3 Q. Thank you. Do you know -- thank you. Do you know Milisav

4 Deronjica from Zagoni. Milisav Deronjica from Zagoni?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Do you know - just two more names - Petar Dimitrijevic from

7 Zagoni?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And finally, do you know Petar Ilic from Zagoni?

10 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters didn't get the answer.

11 MR. JONES: Could you repeat your answer, please.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: I heard him say "I don't know." The question was --

13 MR. JONES: Did you know Petar Ilic from Zagoni?

14 A. I said not.



17 Q. Now, you knew the first three names I mentioned. Did you know

18 that they were all in Bijeceva around the same time that you were, namely,

19 on the 5th of May, 1992?

20 A. I wasn't with them, but I know all of them, because I told you

21 that my sister lived there, married to someone from the village. You have

22 it exactly how many men were killed there and how many children were taken

23 away. This is something that should be written down.

24 Q. Isn't it right that you in the hamlet of Bukova Glava, village of

25 Bijeceva on the 5th of May 1992 not just to celebrate a friend's naming

Page 3060

1 day on the next day but to disarm Muslims in Bijeceva?

2 A. You see how someone is twisting things around. It's a disgrace.

3 It's a sin. Because that village --

4 MR. JONES: Your Honours, I would ask you to refer to the

5 Exhibit D89, which has already been entered in evidence, a Defence

6 exhibit.

7 MR. WUBBEN: Your Honour, isn't the witness allowed to answer the

8 question? Because he was starting to answer the question.

9 MR. JONES: The witness was given a very inflammatory answer.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: He obviously said -- he obviously did not agree with

11 the question or what was being suggested to him.

12 MR. JONES: What I'm going to suggest to you now, Mr. Miladinovic,

13 and I'm referring to Exhibit D89, page 5, where there's reference to the

14 crime in Bijeceva on the 6th of May, 1992 -- I'll read from that. "6th of

15 May, 1992, village of Bijeceva was attacked from the direction of Zagoni

16 and Bratunac. Nine Bosniak houses were torched and an old man Ibro

17 Jasarevic was killed. The SDS leaders who attacked the village were Radoj

18 Gvozdenovic from Zagoni, Milisav Deronjica from Zagoni, Petar Dmitrovic,

19 Petar Ilic from Zagoni and others."

20 Q. Pausing there, did you hear that Ibro Jasarevic was killed on the

21 6th of May, 1992?

22 A. No, I didn't.

23 Q. [Previous translation continues]... Muslim after all, so why

24 should you know?

25 A. I didn't hear that.

Page 3061

1 Q. [Previous translation continues]...

2 A. I just didn't hear, because I didn't go there at the time.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Jones, please refrain from passing comments like

4 you did.

5 MR. JONES: My apologies, Your Honour.

6 Q. So you're saying you're not aware this happened in Bijeceva, this

7 torching of Bosniak houses, on the 6th of May, 1992?

8 A. Yes. I'm telling you the truth.

9 Q. I put it to you that when you described today men in olive-drab

10 JNA uniforms setting fire to houses in Jezestica, you're confused and what

11 you're in fact remembering is what Serbs did in Bijeceva and not what you

12 saw in Jezestica? Now thinking about it, is that something you would

13 agree with? You've confused Serbs in JNA uniforms setting fire to houses

14 with what you say you saw in Jezestica?

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Just answer yes or no, Mr. Miladinovic, please.

16 Mr. Miladinovic, just answer yes or no, please.

17 A. This is erroneous information. This is false. This is not true,

18 the way you're putting it. Why are you trying to confuse me? I've Told

19 you everything.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Next question, Mr. Jones.

21 MR. JONES: I have no further questions.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

23 Mr. Wubben, do you have any questions on re-examination?

24 MR. WUBBEN: Only one limited --

25 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for counsel, please.

Page 3062

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Your microphone, please.

2 MR. WUBBEN: Only one --

3 JUDGE AGIUS: You switched it off now.

4 MR. WUBBEN: Excuse me. Only one limited issue, Your Honour.

5 It's related to the cow that had been taken away from the witness.

6 Re-examined by Mr. Wubben:

7 Q. Witness, I have one question for you. When you tried to get your

8 cow back from that Serb, that happened a few -- a few years later than

9 attack, wasn't it?

10 A. I don't know. I think you should clarify. Then I can tell you

11 exactly. Can you please make this a bit clearer.

12 Q. When you meant that was during the time that Srebrenica fall, did

13 you mention the year 1995?

14 A. Yes. The cow was brought to Bratunac. My wife recognised it and

15 I recognised it. We'd had it for 15 years. It had been in Pale. I asked

16 the man to give it back to me, but he refused. I do not wish to comment

17 on that.

18 Q. And did you find out that it was a Serb who took away the cow or

19 did the Serb get it from someone else?

20 A. No. A Muslim or Turk took it away, as you like, or undeclared, or

21 Bosniak, whatever you choose to call them. Srebrenica fell, so it

22 remained, and another man brought it back to Bratunac for himself, not to

23 bring the cow back to me. I think you keep misunderstanding me.

24 Q. Thank you, Your Honour. No further questions.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Judge Eser.

Page 3063

1 Questioned by the Court:

2 JUDGE ESER: Just with regard to the cow. You told us that the

3 cow was taken away from Muslims, but did you ask --

4 A. 7th of January.

5 JUDGE ESER: Yes. But then the cow was held by a Serb. And did

6 you have any information how the cow which, according to your memory or

7 according to your assumption, was stolen by Muslims came to a Serb?

8 A. They left -- the Muslims left their homes, so he went and he found

9 it there at Pale. That's how. I couldn't start a fight with that man.

10 The cow was gone, so it was gone.

11 JUDGE ESER: Another question. When you have been asked whether

12 you know Andjelko Mladjenovic. You told us that you know him. Now, did

13 you --

14 A. No. Mladjenovic. Not Miladinovic. Mladjenovic. That was the

15 last name. We must get this right.

16 JUDGE ESER: Now, last question. You made statements in the year

17 2000, and all statements, all pages are signed by you. Now, before you

18 put your signature there, had you read what was written on the page or did

19 you just sign the page without having read it before?

20 MR. JONES: Signature is on the English version, so ...

21 JUDGE AGIUS: The signature is always on the English version.

22 JUDGE ESER: So it was only that he had seen it, yeah.

23 Thank you. So I don't have another question.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Dragomir Miladinovic, look at me. Finally

25 it's over.

Page 3064

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Please go ahead, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Finally it's over. We are finished with your

3 testimony.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It can't be over. It's never over.

5 You know how many of my relatives were killed.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: There are many others who are --

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can I please ask you to -- just two

8 minutes to read the names out. Please.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Read the names out.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Please, the village of Zagoni, 12th

11 of July, my sister's son, Mile, was killed. My grandson, Miko.

12 Mother-in-law Mileva, Radoj Gvozdenovic was also killed, Drago was killed.

13 Rada, my granddaughter, was killed too. Miodrag Milosevic and Dragisa,

14 two brothers. Ljubica and Sana's wife, whose name I can't

15 remember. She was killed. These three persons and their child was taken

16 away to Pale. Then Milos Milosevic, Vidosav Gvozdenovic Blagoje. Thank

17 you very much, Your Honours. This is all I have. Thank you so much for

18 giving me a chance to say this.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Miladinovic. Your testimony finishes here.

20 There are many --

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: There are thousands -- there are thousands in the

23 territory of ex-Yugoslavia who have suffered --

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Let me put this back in my pocket.

25 And these you can throw away. No problem.

Page 3065

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Miladinovic, will you please listen to what I

2 have to tell you. Mr. Miladinovic --

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course I will.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: There are thousands who, like you, in the territory

5 of ex-Yugoslavia, have suffered as much, and perhaps even more, than you

6 have, and they come from all ethnicities. Some of them are Serbs, some of

7 them are, according to you, Turks, Bosniaks, Muslims, call them whatever

8 you like, some of them are Croats, some of them are of different

9 nationalities. You're not the only one who has suffered in that war.

10 There are many, many other thousands that have suffered in that war. And

11 this Tribunal opens its doors to all ethnicities to come here and tell us

12 the truth, all ethnicities. And we allow you to mention names and give

13 details because we consider that this is important for the process of

14 reconciliation that this Tribunal also has the duty to try and promote.

15 It's probable that when you wake up in the morning and before you go to

16 bed at night, you think about the tragedy that occurred in your country

17 and possibly convince yourself that only Serbs were killed during that

18 war. Not only Serbs were killed; many Muslims were killed, many Croats

19 were killed, many others were killed.

20 So before I ask Madam Usher to escort you out of this courtroom,

21 my last few words to you is: When I hear you say -- refer to the Muslims

22 as "Turks," I don't think you really believe in promoting reconciliation.

23 You are still stuck to the past. You're living stuck to the past. I know

24 it's not easy to disengage from the past, but you're living -- you are a

25 slave of the past. People like you who have had these bad experiences,

Page 3066

1 World War II and now the war in 19 -- in the 1990s, they should be in the

2 forefront to teach your children and your grandchildren that war doesn't

3 pay. It causes sorrow and tear and loss. So I'm sending you back home,

4 hoping that a man of your experience will preach love and brotherhood and

5 reconciliation to your folk.

6 On behalf of Judge Brydensholt and Judge Eser, I wish to thank you

7 for having come over to give testimony in this trial. Madam Usher will

8 escort you out of this courtroom. You will receive all the assistance

9 that you need to facilitate your return back home. And on behalf of

10 everyone present, I wish you a safe journey back home. Thank you.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I thank this court for hearing

12 me out. I told you everything I know. I thank you so much. I don't

13 regret coming here. It was a very pleasant experience. Thanks to all the

14 personnel also for understanding me. God bless you all.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Give them back to him. Give them back to him. If

16 he doesn't want them, throw them away.

17 There is a very quick thing, matter, that I would like to raise

18 with you. I wish to draw your attention, Madam Vidovic and Mr. Wubben.

19 [The witness withdrew]

20 JUDGE AGIUS: -- that one of the results of the discussions held

21 at the plenary last week was to amend, inter alia, Rule 98 bis. The

22 amendments which have already been made public will come into force on the

23 17th of December. I'm informing you about this, or reminding you, or I

24 mean drawing your attention about this, because obviously both of you will

25 have to rethink a little bit the schedule to be applied as soon as the

Page 3067

1 case for the Prosecution comes to a close. Because there is obviously not

2 going to be any significant time span during which you will spend efforts

3 and Prosecution will spend efforts and we'll spend efforts on trying to

4 reach a decision in terms of the new Rule 98 bis. The whole procedure

5 will be as speedy as we think will be necessary, given the circumstances,

6 because obviously we don't know now what the position is going to be at

7 the end of the case for the Prosecution. But please be informed that it

8 will be a quite -- a speedy procedure that will be applied and everything

9 will be submitted orally and not in writing. And that includes also our

10 decision. But in particular, it's very important for you because it

11 certainly would require you to rethink the time that you need to finish

12 your investigations and also the time when you will be bringing forward

13 witnesses should the Trial Chamber decide that it's not a case of

14 acquittal, in whole or in part. So you need to prepare your witnesses

15 that may be what you thought may be happening in I don't know which month,

16 maybe anticipated by one or two months.

17 MR. JONES: Yes, Your Honour. It might be useful at some stage

18 for us to have an indication, and I need to consult the new Rule 98 bis,

19 but of how long it would be envisaged that we would be allowed to prepare

20 our witnesses, prepare purely the Defence part of the case.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: That you will have the usual -- I mean, I

22 can guarantee you -- I mean, obviously we haven't discussed dates, Judge

23 Brydensholt and Judge Eser, but don't expect us to be unreasonable.

24 MR. JONES: Still something like a two-month period, I imagine.

25 JUDGE ESER: What did you mention? Two months?

Page 3068

1 JUDGE AGIUS: To prepare the case for the Defence.

2 MR. JONES: An indication at some stage would be helpful.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: It also depends on what we will decide under the

4 Rule 98 bis.

5 MR. JONES: Of course, yes. It was simply because I was aware of

6 this rule change was coming. I wasn't sure whether it meant we would

7 still have the same period of time but that we would simply be preparing

8 our defence case at that stage or whether that whole period would be

9 reduced.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: This will depend, Mr. Jones. That will depend. But

11 our idea was to just put you on the alert that the procedure has changed

12 and it will be applied as changed.

13 MR. JONES: Yes. That's appreciated, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: And basically it would also mean that if, according

15 to -- but I might as well skip that, because it's certainly not going to

16 be the case. So we stand adjourned until tomorrow morning at 9.00. I

17 think it's in this same courtroom.

18 Registrar, the week of the 24th, I think, of January, that week,

19 when we were scheduled to sit in the afternoon, now that Krajisnik is not

20 going to sit that entire week, I've asked my secretary to try and move all

21 the sittings to the morning. The 27th is already definitely moved.

22 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

23 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I thank everybody. Have a nice

24 afternoon and evening, and we'll meet again tomorrow morning. Thank you.

25 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.48 p.m.,

Page 3069

1 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 14th day of

2 December, 2004, at 9.00 a.m.