Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 3261

1 Thursday, 16 December 2004

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Good morning, Mr. Registrar, could you call

6 the case, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honour. Case Number

8 IT-03-68-T, the Prosecutor versus Naser Oric.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you.

10 Mr. Oric, are you follow the proceedings in a language you can

11 understand?

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours,

13 gentlemen. Yes, I can follow the proceedings completely in a language I

14 understand.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. You may sit down.

16 Appearances for the Prosecution.

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18 MR. WUBBEN: Good morning, Your Honour, my name is Jan Wubben,

19 lead counsel for the Prosecution, together with Mr. Gramsci Di Fazio, Ms.

20 Joanne Richardson, and our acting case manager, Ms. Djurdja Mirkovic.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you and your team.

22 Appearances for Naser Oric.

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour. I am

24 Vasvija Vidovic. Together with Mr. John Jones we are representing Mr.

25 Naser Oric. And we have with us our case manager, Ms. Jasmina Cosic, and

Page 3262

1 our CaseMap manager, Mr. Geoff Roberts.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. Good morning to you and your team.

3 Any preliminaries? Can we bring in the witness? The sooner we finish

4 the better.

5 [The witness entered court]

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning to everybody on behalf

7 of Slavoljub Zikic. Good morning, gentlemen. Good morning, everybody,

8 on behalf of Zikic, Slavoljub.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Zikic. You may sit down.

10 We are going to start the cross-examination today. May I just

11 remind you that you are testifying under oath and that you have an

12 obligation and responsibility to answer the questions that Mr. Jones will

13 be putting to you truthfully, honestly, and fully.

14 Mr. Jones.

15 MR. JONES: Thank you, Your Honour.


17 [Witness answered through interpreter]

18 Cross-examined by Mr. Jones:

19 Q. Now, Mr. Zikic, I'm going to be asking you questions today and

20 many of those questions will require only a yes or no or I don't know

21 answer. And if I pause, it may be for the interpretation, so don't

22 necessarily feel you have to add anything with this pause.

23 Now, I don't know if you can see me, I'm over here, in case

24 you're wondering where this voice is coming from. Now, I'm going to

25 start by taking you back to happier times. You told us a nice story on

Page 3263

1 Tuesday how Muslim forces in Zanjevo, which is also known as Abdulici,

2 would help you before the war by farming the land for you while you would

3 sit and smoke. Do you remember telling us about that story? And that

4 was because you didn't know about farming.

5 A. Yes, I remember. That's how it was and the way I described it,

6 and I affirm that again today.

7 Q. Can you give us the names of --

8 THE INTERPRETER: Would the counsel speak into the microphone for

9 the interpreters.

10 MR. JONES: It's a problem with the lectern.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Perhaps you can do it that way.


13 Q. Can you give us the names of those two or three people who helped

14 you farm your land.

15 A. Why not? For example, Husnija Hasanovic [phoen].

16 Q. Any others?

17 A. Sabrija Selimovic and his sons.

18 Q. And these people were good friends then at that time?

19 A. Of course. Real friends. At that time we weren't thinking about

20 who was a Serb or who was a Muslim.

21 Q. And these were friends for many years?

22 A. I have land right in the middle in Zanjevo or Abdulici. That

23 village has two names. That was always that way. My parents had an ox

24 cart in that area. They would go up there and they would move around or

25 travel around in the village until they finished all of their business

Page 3264

1 there.

2 Q. You know Zanjevo very well, I take it. It's right also, isn't

3 it, that you were in this area, Fakovici, Zanjevo, throughout May 1992

4 doing your job as manager of the post office. Is that right?

5 A. In 1993 the post office was not --

6 Q. I said 1992; apparently it's been translated as 1993. May 1992,

7 you were there the whole time?

8 A. In 1992 we began to sow the corn. When we finished with the

9 sowing -- but already in May around late May when you start to cultivate

10 the corn, this was in Zanjevo or Abdulici, we were not able to cultivate

11 the corn. We could only do the parts that were quite close to Fakovici.

12 Q. Isn't it right that in May 1992 the Muslim farmers you referred

13 to could no longer help you with your land because they had to leave

14 Zanjevo, they had been expelled from Zanjevo?

15 A. In May they were not expelled, but everyone was already aware in

16 some way that there was some kind of mistrust that was beginning to

17 appear; that's how I understood it. They left -- or they were expelled,

18 whatever you like -- from Zanjevo in the month of June. I can't remember

19 the date. I remember just that it was Serbian holiday, St. Jeremiah's

20 day. They were picked up by buses.

21 Q. We can continue. I was going to ask you to keep your answers

22 short, but that's a helpful detail. They were picked up by buses or

23 taken away from Zanjevo?

24 A. Buses were provided and this commander, Jovanovic, Slavko

25 Jovanovic, went there to tell him that he could not guarantee for them,

Page 3265

1 that he didn't know what would happen to them tomorrow. We have buses.

2 You have your own free territory in Kladanj. You can go to the school --

3 or you can come to the school. I don't know at what time they were

4 supposed to all gather together. The buses will leave then and you will

5 have a safe journey towards Kladanj.

6 Q. It's right, isn't it, Mr. Zikic, that these people were forced to

7 leave, because why would they leave their homes and their land and their

8 livestock that they've cultivated for so many years?

9 A. No. I can tell you for sure, at that point in time, on that day,

10 they were not forced to leave but it was sufficient that the commander,

11 Slavko Jovanovic, was not able to guarantee what would happen the next

12 day.

13 Q. That's a form of threat, isn't it? That was a form of threat,

14 for him to say he couldn't guarantee their safety.

15 A. Well, you can draw your own conclusion.

16 Q. Isn't it right also when they left their homes were burnt, the

17 homes of the Muslims in Zanjevo?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Is it also right that the Muslims in Zanjevo, like many farmers

20 in the area, grew crops and kept livestock. But they -- after they had

21 left kept trying to come back to reap the harvest that they sowed because

22 they had no food. Is that something you're aware of?

23 A. Since they had already moved out, they would come to get their

24 food but during the night. We would see lights going through the woods

25 and we didn't react to that. They would be taking their own food during

Page 3266












12 Blank page inserted to ensure the pagination between the English and

13 French transcripts correspond













Page 3267

1 the night at that time.

2 Q. You say you didn't react to that, but isn't it right that Serb

3 village guards or soldiers or whatever you want to call them would shoot

4 at people moving around at night and people died in that way?

5 A. I don't know of a single case like that, believe me.

6 Q. You mentioned yesterday mines. You referred to a boar that had

7 been killed by stepping on a mine. Isn't it right the area was mined

8 precisely to prevent people from coming back and getting their food?

9 A. Mines were placed in such a stupid way, both on the Muslim side

10 and the Serb side. There was no record of where the mines were placed.

11 There were no sketches, so that Serbs would trip on their own mines as

12 well as the Muslims.

13 Q. Now, I'm going to move to another area, and you'll forgive me if

14 I move around a bit. I'm going to go to and fro a little bit today.

15 I want to take you to the 5th of October, briefly, 1992. You've

16 described events in the village on that day. The fact is, isn't it, that

17 you don't know who started the shooting in fact. In fact your wife

18 thought at first that it was your soldiers firing in the area. Isn't

19 that right?

20 A. First I would like to correct you. It's not the 1st of October

21 but the 5th of October. I was gathering the corn and when the firing

22 started, the shooting, I said to my wife that we should stop and see what

23 was going on. And she thought, well, no, it's probably our people who

24 had too much to drink. Then we went up higher from where you can see all

25 the villages below.

Page 3268

1 Q. You don't need to recount your whole story. I'm asking very

2 specific questions and just a yes or no will do most of the time. My

3 question is: You don't know how or why the actions started on the 5th of

4 October, do you?

5 A. How could I know that?

6 Q. And on that day you were with your wife Milenka and your

7 sister-in-law Vera Vesic, weren't you? The name of the sister-in-law is

8 Vera Vesic?

9 A. Yes, that is true. There were only the three of us in that

10 field.

11 Q. These are fields in Fakovici rather than the ones in Zanjevo you

12 mentioned earlier?

13 A. Yes. We were gathering the corn in the field that I have in

14 Fakovici. We didn't go up to the other fields to gather the corn. When

15 I say "up there," I'm thinking of Zanjevo.

16 Q. And when you were led off later by the people who took you

17 captive, you were led along a river to Poznanovici, if I understand

18 correctly. And I would be grateful if you would tell us the name of that

19 river.

20 A. The village itself was called Mlecva, so officially it was called

21 the Mlecvanska River.

22 Q. Now I'm going to deal with your captivity in a moment. But first

23 briefly I want to ask you about events after your release. Now, in a

24 statement which you gave to the Prosecutor you said that after the

25 exchange we were taken to the Serb forces command headquarters. I was

Page 3269

1 debriefed. My statement was taped and transcribed. The man who

2 debriefed me is dead.

3 My question is: Do you remember this you were debriefed by the

4 Serb forces command headquarters after you were exchanged?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And that was very shortly after you were exchanged, a day or two

7 perhaps?

8 A. The same day.

9 Q. And in that debriefing, the people interviewing you were very

10 keen to find out who was responsible for your detention and mistreatment,

11 weren't they? That's why they were debriefing you.

12 A. I don't understand how I should answer to this. I think they

13 wanted to see what we -- how we were treated in prison, what happened to

14 us. I stayed there for a short time. As I said yesterday, my relatives

15 came to pick me up immediately. I'm not there on the footage that you

16 saw here yesterday, either.

17 Q. But when you were debriefed, how long did this last roughly, can

18 you remember? An hour?

19 A. I really don't know. I don't know. I was still unfit to think

20 about those things at that time. I just wanted to cross over into

21 Serbia; that's where my children were. I wanted to see them and I wanted

22 them to see me. I didn't think about anything else.

23 Q. But isn't it right that you had been through a very unpleasant

24 experience, probably one of the most unpleasant experiences of your life,

25 and so that when you were interviewed you were very keen to say what had

Page 3270

1 happened to you and to name anyone who you thought was responsible for

2 your mistreatment. Isn't that correct?

3 A. Yes, but I didn't know anyone up there, just Mr. Naser Oric and I

4 knew Akif from before. I can't say that we were really -- that we knew

5 each other very well, but we knew each other.

6 Q. Isn't it right in that statement you never mentioned Naser Oric

7 when you were first debriefed?

8 A. That's not true. They asked how -- what was the conduct of Naser

9 Oric and Akif Husic.

10 Q. They put the question to you about Naser Oric? Or did you

11 volunteer the name Naser Oric?

12 A. I can't remember. I know that there was talk about that.

13 Q. We'll come back to that in a moment. You told us yesterday that

14 you never before the war set eyes on Naser Oric but the reason you

15 concluded it was him was purely and simply the person said he was Naser

16 Oric. And if you'll permit me, I'll read back your remarks. You were

17 asked: "Now, could you tell us how you knew you were talking to Naser

18 Oric?" You replied: "That's what he told us, that he was Naser Oric."

19 And then in your 2000 statement to the Prosecutor, and I'm

20 referring to page 5, ERN 00538907, you said: "I knew it was Naser Oric

21 because he would say to us Have you heard of Naser Oric and he would say

22 to us when we said yes that I am he, I am Naser Oric."

23 It's right isn't it, that that's all you had to go on? Someone

24 saying I am Naser Oric?

25 A. Yes.

Page 3271

1 Q. So the person that said I am Oric was simply lying or playing

2 some joke or quite simply pretending to be something he wasn't, that's

3 something you would not have known at the time, would you?

4 A. I could -- I had four prisoners who were there when I got there

5 and when he appeared at the door they said "Naser Oric."

6 Q. That's new, isn't it? You didn't tell us that before.

7 A. Yes, I couldn't recall every single detail. But as soon as he

8 came in, they said "Naser." They didn't say Oric, and I had heard

9 earlier that his last name is Oric.

10 Q. Isn't it possible that they were basing themselves on the same

11 information as you, namely that this person had said I am Naser Oric to

12 them?

13 A. I cannot know that.

14 Q. Let's just deal with what you know, never mind the other

15 prisoners. Isn't it correct that if I had come to the prison at that

16 time and I had said, I am Naser Oric, you would have left the prison

17 saying I met Naser Oric. He had receding hair. And you would have

18 described what you and I talked about. But in fact you would have been

19 describing a person who said they were Oric and not actually the person

20 who was Oric. Do you accept that?

21 A. Probably, if you introduced yourself that way and I didn't know

22 the other man, I would probably believe your story.

23 Q. Precisely. Now, the fact is -- well, let me put it this way.

24 According to what you said in your 2000 statement, this person announced

25 that he was Naser Oric in a somewhat theatrical manner. He said, I am

Page 3272

1 he, I am Naser Oric. Is that how you recall it, him saying it in a

2 slightly pompous manner?

3 A. I don't understand. Do you want me to describe him or something

4 like that?

5 Q. Well, I'm trying to establish the character of this person who

6 spoke to you. I'll come at it a different way. Do you know that this

7 person, whoever he was, told you at least one lie, didn't he, about

8 killing Arkan, as we know Arkan didn't die for years later? I mean, if

9 you're aware of that.

10 A. Well, maybe he was boasting or something like that, at least

11 that's what I can conclude.

12 Q. Exactly. I mean, you know -- you're aware that Arkan didn't die

13 until years later, in fact in 2000. Is that correct? You're aware of

14 that now?

15 A. I don't remember the specific year. I know that he was killed in

16 Belgrade. I read it in the papers.

17 Q. After the war. That he was killed after the war?

18 A. Yes, long after the war.

19 Q. Now, if I want to take this slowly because it's important. You

20 said yesterday about your conversations with the person you called Mr.

21 Naser. I'm going to quote from the transcript.

22 "He came about four times if I count all the conversations.

23 Perhaps I will remember the last conversation and then I can remember the

24 second-to-last. He came with a pistol to that hall or corridor and he

25 asked me personally: Do you know whose pistol this is? I said, Mr.

Page 3273

1 Naser, you're the one holding it. It must be yours. He said, Well yes,

2 right now it is. But do you think who it belonged to yesterday? I said,

3 well, there's no way for me to know this, I've been in prison for some

4 time."

5 Just pausing there, you'd only been in prison for a few days at a

6 point, hadn't you? In total you were there for 11 days. So you had been

7 in prison for a few days at that point rather than a long time.

8 A. I was imprisoned on the 5th of October and I was exchanged on the

9 16th. It's up to you to count the days.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Richardson.

11 MS. RICHARDSON: I would only ask if counsel will be quoting from

12 the transcript he will give a page and line number.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: You are right. Thank you, Ms. Richardson.

14 MR. JONES: I will provide that. I am basing myself on the

15 LiveNote electronic version and it was 11.35.17.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

17 MR. JONES: To continue.

18 Q. "I said: Have you ever heard of Arkan? And I said yes. He said

19 What do you know about him? I said, I know he's rich, he's married to a

20 popular singer called Ceca. Something along these lines. There was no

21 way I could have known anything more than that at that time. He said

22 This is his pistol. Zvornik fell yesterday and has been in Serbian

23 hands. He said, Zvornik fell yesterday and this is the pistol that I

24 used to kill Arkan. I said, war is war."

25 I'll just wait for the transcript to catch up. That's what you

Page 3274

1 said yesterday. And I'm referring to your 2000 statement. The reference

2 is 00938907, page 5, a similar conversation:

3 "One time he," Oric, "had a nickel-plated pistol and he asked us

4 on a visit to the cell if he ever heard of Arkan and we said yes. He

5 then told us This pistol is Arkan's and he was killed yesterday and now

6 it's mine."

7 So a number of questions about that. Firstly, and it's a perhaps

8 a minor detail, but the story has changed already a little, hasn't it,

9 between your 2000 statement and what you told us here. Because now

10 you're saying the person who claimed to be Oric said he killed Arkan with

11 the pistol, whereas before he said that Arkan had been killed and he now

12 had his pistol.

13 A. I don't remember that statement. Even if I had heard he had been

14 killed, I don't remember that. I don't think I ever gave such a

15 statement nor did I ever hear anything like that.

16 Q. Well, we'll come back to that. But leaving that detail aside,

17 this was the first lie, wasn't it, that Arkan had been killed? Because

18 as you told us he survived the war. But isn't it also a lie Zvornik had

19 fallen, because in fact the Serbs captured Zvornik in the early stages of

20 the war and never lost it. So that was another lie which this person

21 told you, wasn't it, about Zvornik?

22 A. Please, I don't think you understand me sufficiently then. I did

23 not say that Arkan was killed.

24 Q. No. Mr. Zikic, it hasn't been put to you that you said Arkan has

25 been killed. What I'm putting to you that this person who spoke to you

Page 3275

1 has told you at least two lies, according to this conversation he had.

2 He lied when he said that Arkan had been killed and he lied when he said

3 Zvornik had fallen. That's what I'm putting to you.

4 A. As I said a while ago, I think he was just being boastful, but I

5 didn't believe that he had actually done it.

6 Q. Now, that's why you may understand now why I was asking you if he

7 was pompous or theatrical. Isn't it right that this person was a bit of

8 a joker and he told you these two lies in your first conversation with

9 him? In other words, this person was telling you one lie after another.

10 A. The four visits I remember. Once he --

11 Q. [Previous translation continues]... we'll come back to the four

12 visits because I want to ask you questions about each visit. I want to

13 stick with this conversation. There's something else wrong with what you

14 told us yesterday about this conversation, isn't there? You said you

15 applied to Mr. Naser. He said, have you ever heard of Arkan? And I

16 said, yes. And he said, what do you know about him? I said, I know he's

17 rich. He's married to a popular singer called Ceca. Arkan didn't marry

18 Ceca until more than two years later, didn't he? In fact it's on the

19 19th of February, 1995, if you're aware of that.

20 A. What I know, at least based on other people's accounts, is that

21 she had been married to a rich man from Asia, apparently, an oil tycoon

22 or something like that. And at the time he had in some way liberated

23 her, perhaps even earlier, for a couple of years and he took her. Now,

24 when exactly they were married I don't know because precisely I didn't

25 attend their wedding, if you see my point.

Page 3276

1 MR. JONES: Your Honour, I have a couple of exhibits we

2 downloaded from the Internet concerning when Arkan married Ceca and when

3 he died. They're not in Bosnian so I obviously can't present them to the

4 witness. It may be a matter for judicial notice; it may be a matter

5 which we can deal with in some other way. I don't intend to pursue it

6 further with this witness apart than to put questions to him in that

7 regard.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, you can proceed.

9 MR. JONES: Yes.

10 Q. Mr. Zikic, what I'm putting to you and I hope you understand

11 this. Arkan was not married to Ceca at that stage. And this

12 conversation which you say took place quite simply could not have taken

13 place was Arkan was not married to Ceca and you, as you say, didn't

14 attend their wedding and presumably didn't have a view of the future. So

15 this conversation is something you've invented or imagined based on

16 events that occurred later. Isn't that what happened? You're

17 embellishing your account of your captivity by telling imaginary stories

18 of imaginary conversations with Mr. Naser.

19 A. No. And these thing being said about Ceca and Arkan or when they

20 got married, my understanding was they were married at that time. I

21 heard stories that people told perhaps even as long as two or three years

22 before the war.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Richardson.

24 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, that's fine. I was only going to

25 object to the lengthiness of the question. And if counsel could keep his

Page 3277

1 questions a bit briefer, I think it would be easier for everyone.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: I think the Trial Chamber has weighed this witness

3 enough to know whether he is being harassed, whether he is being asked a

4 fair question which he can take and answer. I think he is a very strong

5 personality. He can --

6 MR. JONES: Your Honour --

7 JUDGE AGIUS: He can answer.

8 MR. JONES: Your Honour.

9 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour.

10 MR. JONES: Is it for the Prosecution to monitor the length of my

11 questions?

12 JUDGE AGIUS: That's why I didn't hear her objection or what she

13 had to say.

14 MR. JONES: Thank you, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Proceed, but you do have an inclination to put long

16 questions which with something for his age may be a little confusing and

17 for the interpreters difficult to follow. If you can reduce them or

18 bring them down in -- yes, Ms. Richards.

19 MS. RICHARDS: [Microphone not activated]

20 MR. JONES: I'll do my best, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

22 MR. JONES: Mr. Zikic --

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Before you proceed on something else, do you want

24 these exhibited or not?

25 MR. JONES: Yes.

Page 3278

1 JUDGE AGIUS: So, Mr. Siller, please. The first one which was a

2 single page with the title "who killed Arkan"

3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, it gets the exhibit D132.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Will be D132. The other one consisting of two

5 pages and title of "turbo nationalism" reporting on Arkan's wedding,

6 three pages, will become D133. Thank you.


8 Q. And my suggestion to you, Mr. Zikic, and you're free to agree or

9 disagree, is that every time you speak of these events you give a

10 different account of the encounters with the person you say was Naser

11 Oric. Do you accept that?

12 A. No.

13 Q. We'll speak about that in a moment.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, there was -- I apologise to Mr. Jones for

15 interrupting you like this. You know it's not in our style. But my

16 attention is being drawn that when we indexed the previous two documents,

17 put them -- brought them into record and gave them a number and I said

18 the first one of which is D132, and I said it consists of a one-page

19 document with the title "Who killed Arkan?" I was only given at the time

20 one page, when in actual fact the document consisted of two pages. The

21 previous page I mentioned of "who killed Arkan?" Is the second page of

22 what will be D132. But D132 consists of two pages, the first one being a

23 page with the title "Arkan: Death of an warlord: Special Report" showing

24 a number of people gathered around the grave or the tomb where allegedly

25 Arkan was buried. So these two pages will form document D132.

Page 3279

1 Thank you and sorry for the mistake. And you may proceed and

2 make -- again, I apologise for interrupting you in the process of your

3 cross-examination.

4 MR. JONES: Thank you, Your Honour.

5 Q. Now, the description you gave of the person you said was Naser

6 you gave in your 2000 statement, I'm referring to ERN 00938907, page 5,

7 was: "Naser was well-built, 180 centimetres tall. Handsome man. He

8 wore no beard."

9 Is that correct? Is that how you remember this person?

10 A. Everything is correct but I did not say that he wore a beard. It

11 looked more like a regularly unshaven man to me.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: I think it must be a question of interpretation.

13 They must have --


15 Q. Isn't it right that your description was that he didn't have a

16 beard or that he did have a beard?

17 A. Again I must say it is possible that I gave such a statement, but

18 what it really looked like, when I said a beard I didn't mean like an

19 Orthodox priest or a scientist or someone like that. It was a very, very

20 short beard, just mere stubble. So I'm not sure I should call it a beard

21 at all. Maybe he just hadn't shaved for a long time. I don't think he

22 was really trying to grow a beard. That's now how it struck me at the

23 time.

24 Q. Again I think there's a problem with translation. Perhaps the

25 witness could be shown a copy of his statement which could solve the

Page 3280

1 problem.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Which statement are you referring to?

3 MR. JONES: It's the one of the 25th of March, 2000. And in the

4 English I'm looking to page 5 -- well, I've given the reference already.

5 I'd like the witness to be shown.

6 Q. And if you look at page 5 and it's 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 -- 6th

7 paragraph. And it's the first sentence. In English we have "Naser was

8 well-built, 180 centimetres tall, handsome man."

9 Sixth paragraph, first sentence. And in your language it's

10 [B/C/S spoken]. Is that a correct description?

11 A. At that moment, yes. But in as far as I was able to judge after

12 all the beatings I had received, well that's a different matter

13 altogether.

14 Q. My point to you is this: The description of that person is of a

15 pretty average person, isn't it? Average height, handsome, well-built is

16 a matter of opinion. There wasn't anything distinctive of this person,

17 was there, that you noticed?

18 A. Nothing distinctive. And he treated us fairly, too.

19 Q. Now, in terms of the visits paid by this person to the prison.

20 In this statement while you still have it in front of you, you state, and

21 I'll refer to the English. It's page 5, 00938907, third paragraph. "He

22 would come to the building every morning." And you were there for 11

23 days, so that would be 11 visits.

24 Yesterday you recalled four specific occasions and conversations.

25 Correct me if I'm wrong about that. The first conversation in which he

Page 3281

1 asked you about Fakovici and the people there; the second occasion which

2 I think you said what happened on that occasion; the third conversation

3 he asked you, are you bloody; and the fourth conversation about Arkan.

4 Can you let us know which is correct? Was it every day or was it on four

5 occasions?

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, one moment before you answer the question.

7 Because at the end of the same paragraph you have been reading from where

8 it describes Naser Oric, well-built, 180. At the end the last sentence

9 of that paragraph is "during my stay in that prison, I think Naser

10 visited the cell every other morning.

11 MR. JONES: Yes, that contradicts what's on the page.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: You should put this to him as well. Because in the

13 statement we have got two statements. One says every day; the other one

14 says every other day.

15 MR. JONES: I was going to, Your Honour, but it gets rather

16 complicated to put all these contradictions.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: It was one of the questions I was going to put

18 myself.

19 MR. JONES: I think it's easier if the witness just lets us know

20 was it every day.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Richardson.

22 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, Your Honour, that was going to be my

23 objection.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. As I said, That was one of the questions I

25 had prepared.

Page 3282

1 MR. JONES: We can expect progress. I'm wondering if the

2 Prosecution is going to be popping up every five minutes.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's divide the question into three parts.

4 Mr. Zikic -- Ms. Richardson, please.

5 Mr. Zikic, in this statement you gave to the Prosecution in the

6 year 2000, you are reported as saying that Mr. Oric, Mr. Naser Oric, the

7 man you described as Naser Oric, sometimes you say he used to come every

8 day. At another part of the statement you say he used to come every

9 other day. Which is the correct of the two? Was he coming there every

10 day or every other day? One day yes and one day no?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think someone probably

12 misunderstood. Either it was you yesterday or the statement was not

13 taken correctly. My statement then as now is that he came every day to

14 the building in which we were being held. And then suddenly there would

15 be discipline. As to the visits to the prison itself, it is the four

16 times that I mentioned, not 11 visits to the prison itself. But

17 throughout those 11 days we knew in the morning when Mr. Naser Oric came

18 to the building. A deadly silence would descend. Whereas, during the

19 night when he was away people would be drinking and singing and shooting

20 into the air, or what have you.


22 Q. So your evidence is that from the 5th of October to the 16th of

23 October every day Naser Oric visited the prison and you knew of this

24 because of this air of discipline that descended over the building, if I

25 understand you correctly?

Page 3283

1 A. Precisely.

2 Q. Didn't it strike you as strange that this person, if he really

3 was the military commander of the armed forces was at the prison every

4 day rather than at the front lines? Was that something that made you

5 suspect that this person wasn't a military commander?

6 A. I don't think this is something for me to conclude. He could

7 have had deputies or assistants, if you are talking about the army on the

8 front line. Whether he went or not, I really don't know. We knew and

9 those people who were in prison had told me before, Naser is a

10 disciplined person. Well, if he's a disciplined person, then the

11 soldiers, too, would have been disciplined. At about 7.00 in the morning

12 certainly what I can say is the atmosphere changed in relation to how it

13 would have been in the night.

14 Q. My suggestion to you, and perhaps it isn't something you can help

15 us with, is that this person was more of a prison governor being mistaken

16 for Naser Oric, and that's why he came to the prison every day. That's

17 not something you can help us with and I'll move on.

18 I want to deal with prior statements you made. Do you recall

19 making a statement in August 1994, to an investigative judge in Zvornik?

20 A. Yes -- no, not the investigating judge. I think it was someone

21 from The Hague.

22 Q. Well, there's a statement that you gave to people in The Hague

23 which I will deal with subsequently. But what I want to ask you is in

24 1994 you spoke to Serbs, people from your area, about these events and

25 gave a statement. Do you recall that?

Page 3284

1 A. Someone did come over to see me, but whether it was on behalf of

2 the SUP, on behalf of the army, or on behalf of a third party, I really

3 don't know.

4 Q. Where did they come to see you, where were you when they spoke to

5 you?

6 A. They came to see me at my home. A man came. I have no idea who

7 he was.

8 Q. Your home in Fakovici or somewhere else?

9 A. Fakovici, yes. I don't remember that I travelled anywhere else.

10 I did give interviews also to some international TV stations.

11 Q. If we could -- I think it's been distributed, perhaps, the

12 statement from 1994 or it will be distributed. I'll give the references

13 for the record. In English it's L0044700 to L0044710. In Bosnian it's

14 0065244 to 00652412 [sic]. And if that could be shown to the witness --

15 if it could be shown to the witness and his signature or what purports to

16 be his signature could be shown. If the witness could look at that. If

17 he could look at his signature as well or what purports to be his

18 signature as well. I'm going to draw his attention to certain details in

19 this statement.

20 If you could have a look, Mr. Zikic.

21 A. Which signature?

22 Q. At the bottom of the page. Is that your signature?

23 A. Well, yes, it's my signature.

24 Q. And isn't it right that this statement, if you look through it,

25 has certain details that you've told us about here, for example, that the

Page 3285

1 Muslims said [indiscernible] was our Milosevic, on page 4 of the English.

2 The story about the dog which you told us on page 8, and the rather odd

3 story which obviously stuck in your memory about the old man and the

4 young girl and smoking a pipe of tobacco and that since she is immature

5 we Serbs are immature, too. That story on page 8.

6 So that's your story. What is in front of you is a statement

7 which you gave and signed, isn't it?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And you signed it after being informed that you would -- to tell

10 the truth and that you mustn't conceal anything. Isn't that right?

11 I want to read part of that statement. I want to refer you to

12 part of the statement where you discuss Naser Oric. And in the English

13 it's pages 6 to 7, L004705 to L004706. And it starts off, the bit I'm

14 going to read: "During these interrogations, the commander of Muslim

15 forces in Srebrenica, Naser Oric, used to visit the room. I did not know

16 him then but he somehow knew a lot about me."

17 I'm pausing there. Do you remember saying and is that true?

18 A. He addressed me as Upravnika, manager.

19 Q. Right. He's not, as far as you know, from the Fakovici area, is

20 he, Naser Oric?

21 A. Are you thinking of Naser, Naser Oric?

22 Q. Well, the person who you say is Naser Oric and who seemed to know

23 a lot about you, he's not from the Fakovici area, is he, or someone you

24 recognised as a local?

25 A. No, no.

Page 3286

1 Q. Would you have any idea why he would know a lot about you?

2 A. That's something that I would like to know, too.

3 Q. But carrying on, "he, Naser Oric, asked me" -- I'm just moving

4 down a little bit, down the page -- "whether I knew why they attacked us

5 on 5 October, on Monday, on a usual day, not on some Orthodox holiday as

6 it was usually conveyed. When I answered that I did noted know why they

7 had done so, he explained that there was an information about an

8 inspection in Fakovici performed by Akif, performed on 2, 3, 4 October

9 and took an order from a file giving it to me to read. I remember the

10 contents of that order quite well and I can quote it in its completeness

11 'pursuant to the inspection of Fakovici on 2, 3, and 4 October, I hereby

12 order to attack Fakovici on 5 October, Monday, at 1200 hours" -- looks

13 like 25.000 -- "2.500 well-armed soldiers on the front line 8.5

14 kilometres long. Naser."

15 Now, my question to you is: Is that really right, that after two

16 years after these events when you said you were disorientated and

17 confused, you remembered word for word an order which Naser Oric

18 allegedly read out to you? Is that right?

19 A. I don't know whether I said Naser in that statement. That was

20 about Mirzat or from Mirzat. I'm not sure how that was interpreted. I'm

21 not sure if I mentioned Naser Oric. I would not say something that

22 wasn't like that. I think this was when Mirzat was interrogated me on

23 behalf of the army. It was not at Naser Oric's.

24 Q. My question is this: When you were interviewed in August 1994,

25 is it right that then, two years after -- nearly two years after these

Page 3287

1 events, that you remembered verbatim an order which had been read out to

2 you? Or did someone insert this in your statement, is what I'm driving

3 at.

4 A. No, it wasn't inserted. When I was asked about all sorts of

5 things, this was with Mirzat. Do you know why we attacked on that

6 specific day; why we attacked Fakovici on that specific day; of course I

7 didn't know. If I had known I would have been on the other side of the

8 Drina. I wouldn't have waited to go through what I had to go through.

9 Q. You say he then took a document from a file, gave it to you to

10 read, and you then memorised the whole contents of that order in those

11 moments you had it in front of you?

12 A. A wrong interpretation again. I do not mention Naser Oric there

13 but Akif Husic. Yes, Akif Husic.

14 Q. My question is a very simple one. Did you maintain in the

15 interview in 1994 that you had memorised word for word an order which had

16 been given to you to look at and you were then able to reproduce that

17 order word for word? Is that right?

18 A. I don't know whether I repeated it word for word. Maybe it

19 wasn't like that. But if I gave a statement, I gave it based on my

20 recollection. I cannot see the original. I don't know whether it states

21 that in the statement or not.

22 Q. Let's just go back a statement. You said this is not something

23 which Naser Oric said and yet it's right, isn't it, that you signed this

24 statement in which it said that Oric said this to you. You signed that

25 as the truth, and in fact it wasn't true.

Page 3288

1 A. See, I did not say ever -- I did sign it, but I don't know if I

2 read it back or if it was read back to me. I don't know. But we're

3 talking about Akif Husic here and not Naser Oric.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes -- just for the record, Mr. Jones, sorry to

5 interrupt you, but I think this is important for -- I'm sure you know it.

6 The -- basically the last sentence of that statement precisely ends with

7 the following words: "The protocol has been loudly dictated. It

8 contains everything I stated. I do not wish to read it. I recognise it

9 as mine and accordingly sign it."

10 MR. JONES: Yes and every page is signed.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: He didn't read it.

12 MR. JONES: But it was read to him.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: That's what it says, it was read to him. Again,

14 using the same basis of suppositions here and suppositions there, they

15 may have read something different to him.

16 MR. JONES: Well, the conclusions --

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Exactly, the conclusions are what we have here and

18 we will draw our own conclusions.

19 Yes, Judge Eser would like to put a question. One moment, Judge

20 Eser.

21 JUDGE ESER: I have a question as to the English language. If

22 you say "the protocol has been loudly dictated. It contains everything I

23 stated." Now, there's a difference between who dictated it, whether the

24 witness dictated it or whether somebody else dictated it --

25 MR. JONES: My understanding --

Page 3289

1 JUDGE ESER: There may be a difference between the dictation and

2 then what was written down.

3 MR. JONES: I understood it to be "loudly dictated" probably has

4 been read out loud. That seemed to be the most likely interpretation.

5 Your Honours, there are a number of inferences which one could be drawn

6 about this statement. I've pointed to passages which reflect this

7 witness's testimony. As Your Honours have observed, it's a matter for

8 you to draw conclusions about whether this witness has adopted it as his

9 own based on a number of factors and not purely if and how it was read to

10 him.

11 JUDGE ESER: I just wanted to ask because the German

12 understanding of dictated -- we have the same word in German -- dictated

13 would not mean it was read to the person interviewed.

14 MR. JONES: My colleague might be able to throw some light on

15 that.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: And this is what it says -- this is precisely what

17 it says in the Serbian -- the Serbo-Croat version because you have [B/C/S

18 spoken] in the beginning of the sentence before [B/C/S spoken].

19 Yes, Ms. Vidovic.

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, Your Honours, perhaps

21 I can clarify the procedure because we might come up with that in the

22 future. What is usual in the course of conducting an investigation in

23 the course of our criminal proceedings is that the investigative judge

24 asks the witness a question, the witness answers, and then the judge

25 dictates loudly for the record in the presence of the witness. And this

Page 3290

1 is then stated at the end of this statement. So the investigative judge

2 dictates aloud what the witness says and then this is signed at the end

3 by the person who took the dictation or the record and then by the

4 witness.

5 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, if I may.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Richardson.

7 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, what Madam Vidovic has stated may

8 be the case sometimes. But in fact these statements the way they were

9 taken may not comport with what was just said by Madam Vidovic. I think

10 these statements were taken in a different manner back in 1994. Today

11 the witness may give the information to the investigative judge and it's

12 read back, and that may be the procedure today. But in 1994 that was not

13 the procedure.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's try and cut this short because I think we are

15 wasting time.

16 Mr. Zikic, this gentleman who came to see you in August 1994,

17 this Serbian gentleman and interviewed you, at the end of which you

18 signed this document. Was -- first of all, did he have a tape recorder?

19 Did he have a typewriter? Was he jotting down himself? Or did he have

20 someone else writing down what you were saying? Let's take them one by

21 one. Did he have a tape recorder?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Did he have someone helping him or was he just by

24 himself, alone?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I gave so many statements in

Page 3291

1 different places, so I cannot remember who came and who they were with

2 and when they came.

3 MR. JONES: Your Honour, Vaso Eric is going to be a witness,

4 so --

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Was he carrying a typewriter, he or someone else,

6 or a computer or a portable computer?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't think that he was. I don't

8 know. I cannot remember that detail and I could not say whether he was

9 carrying it or not. I really don't recall that detail. I don't even

10 recall that statement, but it exists.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, but you have seen your signature on it. Do

12 you have reason to doubt the authenticity of your signature or do you

13 confirm to us that it is indeed your signature? Does he still have it,

14 Usher?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is my signature, but I do not

16 recall whether it was read back to me or not. It is my signature,

17 though.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you remember whether you signed that document on

19 the same day you were interviewed by this gentleman or whether you signed

20 it days or a period of time later?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I cannot answer that

22 question. I really do not remember.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: And you don't remember either whether that person

24 read out to you the statement before you signed it?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

Page 3292

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you remember that person dictating to someone

2 else what needed to be registered, put down, in writing?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I said earlier I gave

4 a lot of statements and I cannot remember whether each statement was read

5 back to me or not. I really don't know.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: That's fair enough and that's the end of it as far

7 as I am concerned.

8 Of course you may proceed with the matter as much as you like,

9 but I don't think you're going to get anywhere, Mr. Jones.

10 MR. JONES: No. I would simply ask this be made an exhibit, the

11 1994 statement.


13 Any objection?

14 MS. RICHARDSON: No, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: So let's have a formal copy of it, because what I

16 have is mine and I may have some notes on it. So this is going to be

17 Defence Exhibit D134. Correct? D134, yes.


19 Q. Now, we've spoken of two statements, prior statements, by you

20 today, Mr. Zikic, a statement to The Hague investigators and this

21 statement. Now I want to turn to a third statement which is when you

22 were debriefed on the day of your exchange.

23 MR. JONES: And with the usher's assistance I would ask that the

24 next exhibit, prior statement, be exhibited. And just to explain for the

25 record the English version is ERN 00366735, 00366739. We've received

Page 3293

1 that from the Prosecution under receipt 11, but we found the same version

2 in the report to the UN commission of experts sent by Ambassador Dr.

3 Vladimir Pavicic from the FRY. The Bosnian version has the ERN 00832033

4 to 0832035, and if it would assist the Court, we also received this with

5 receipt 11 as part of a criminal complaint. It's something I can deal

6 with in the witness's absence, if need be.

7 Q. Now, Mr. Zikic, I would like you to look at that document which

8 has been put in front of you. And it's right, isn't it, that this

9 statement contains, again, a lot of details which you've given in

10 evidence. On the first page that you were with your wife and her sister.

11 You went past the guard post where the people had been killed. I think

12 you'll confirm that was true, wasn't it, on the 5th of October, 1992, you

13 went past the guard post where people had been killed. Can you confirm

14 that, Mr. Zikic?

15 A. I would like a specific question, please.

16 Q. My specific question was: Can you confirm that on the 5th of

17 October, 1992, you went past the guard post and you saw that people had

18 been killed there. It's a yes no question.

19 A. When we escaped from the field by the path towards the road to

20 Bratunac and Skelani, that guard post as I described it was actually a

21 house where people were incinerated with a Zolja. It was perhaps 50 to

22 80 metres from the bank of the Drina. It was a weekend house. We didn't

23 see the dead, but we just recognised the voice of my sister who was

24 moaning and wailing. After that she died, and she was found on the front

25 door of that building.

Page 3294

1 Q. Thank you. Turning to the second page in the English we see in

2 English, and if you'll follow if you can in the original, "they tied my

3 hands with rope behind my back and ordered me to guide them along

4 Mlecvanska River. I had no choice. They were afraid that the fields

5 might be fined." I'm sorry -- no, it's in the transcript. "They were

6 afraid that the fields might be mined. I went forward but they did not

7 trust me. They thought I might be ready to kill myself and take them

8 with me".

9 Isn't it right that you told us that you were led along the

10 Mlecvanska River and the other details you see there, Zulfo on the white

11 horse, that the people didn't trust you to lead them through minefields

12 and a further detail that a man said I won't drink from the same bottle

13 as a Serb; all of those details you have confirmed for this court,

14 haven't you?

15 MR. JONES: He's about to answer.


17 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Let him answer --

19 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Your Honour.

20 MR. JONES: The witness said --

21 Q. Well, could you please repeat your answer, Mr. Zikic, before you

22 were interrupted.

23 A. I said, if understood it properly, they tied me up, they drove me

24 along -- not drove me but they led me up along the river.

25 Q. Yes, Mr. Zikic. In fact I was asking you to repeat your answer

Page 3295

1 when you said "da" twice. Isn't that right that the last question I put

2 to you, you said yes? In answer to my question you said "yes"?

3 A. I would like to have it also for the third time, if the Court

4 permits me.

5 MR. JONES: Yes --

6 JUDGE AGIUS: I think this is all very confusing to the witness.

7 MR. JONES: Your Honour, may I make one observation. My

8 colleague was rebuked yesterday for interrupting the witness --

9 JUDGE AGIUS: I haven't -- I haven't.

10 MR. JONES: The witness replied yes twice very --

11 JUDGE AGIUS: I haven't allowed Ms. Richardson to intervene. In

12 all fairness I think your question is confusing to the witness.

13 MR. JONES: He answered it clearly.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go through it bit by bit, Mr. Jones because

15 it's not fair.

16 MR. JONES: What I'll do is I'll ask the witness to look at his

17 statement. I'll ask him that he can confirm that he's told this Court

18 certain details in the statement.

19 Q. Firstly, isn't it right that you were with your wife and her

20 sister on the 5th of October, 1992?

21 A. Yes, I was there in the cornfield.

22 Q. Just a yes or no will suffice, if we're going to get through

23 this. That your hands were tied by rope?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. That you were guarded along the Mlecvanska River?

Page 3296

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. That Zulfo was on a white horse?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. That the people guarding you were worried that you might be ready

5 to kill yourself and take them with you by leading them into a minefield?

6 A. They placed me at the head of the column, but as we were walking

7 for about a half a kilometre along the river we came to a place where a

8 wild boar was killed. When they saw the fur that was dismembered, I

9 don't know how to describe it. They said they shouldn't permit the

10 Chetnik to lead the column because he will guide us into a minefield and

11 kill himself, too. So that's what happened.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: That's an exact repetition of what he told us

13 before.

14 MR. JONES: Yes.

15 Q. And that a man said to you, I won't drink from the same bottle as

16 a Serb? You don't have to tell the whole story again. Isn't it right

17 that that's part of your account, that a Muslim said, I won't drink from

18 the same bottle as a Serb?

19 A. That is 1.000 and not 100 per cent true.

20 Q. So this is, is it not, your statement or a statement by you about

21 these events, the statement in front of you?

22 A. I find it hard to read even with my glasses, but you just go

23 ahead please with your questions.

24 Q. Well, could this be the first statement you made when you were

25 debriefed on the first -- on the day of your exchange?

Page 3297

1 A. I don't know which statement you're thinking of.

2 Q. Well, the one that is in front of you I'm suggesting that that

3 could be a statement you referred to when you were debriefed on the day

4 of your exchange.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Witness, if you know, you know; if you don't know,

6 you don't know.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know, that's why I wanted

8 to have an explanation.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: So leave it at that, please. If you don't know,

10 you don't know. And this is an unsigned and unstamped and undated

11 document which had it been sought to be admitted by the Prosecution you

12 would have certainly objected to, Mr. Jones.

13 MR. JONES: Well, Your Honour, may I take exception to that.

14 I've tried, given that it's undated and unsigned, to elicit from this

15 witness that these are details that he's given before and therefore it's

16 not his statement.

17 THE INTERPRETER: Could the speakers please not overlap. Thank

18 you.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: You are putting to the witness -- you are putting

20 to the witness that this is his statement.

21 MR. JONES: Yes.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: And that it is indeed also his very first statement

23 that he made. You are not allowing for the possibility that it isn't

24 even a statement of his.

25 MR. JONES: Your Honour, it's perfectly open to this witness to

Page 3298

1 look at the statement and say, ah yes, I recall now, this is a statement

2 I gave on the day of my exchange. That might be possible evidence he

3 could give.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Are you wishing to tender this document in

5 evidence.

6 MR. JONES: Yes, indeed.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: So this is being tendered in evidence by the

8 Defence and admitted and marked as Defence Exhibit 135. Any further

9 questions to the witness on this document?

10 MR. JONES: Absolutely.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead.


13 Q. Continuing on page 2 of the statement, if you could look at that

14 it says: "Behind me went the Turk, or call him what you will, an

15 Ustasha, Zulfo by name."

16 Now you told us you were called Vlah, which is an insulting name

17 for Serbs. And isn't it right that calls Turks or Ustashas is just as

18 insulting?

19 A. Yes, unfortunately that is true.

20 Q. Is that the word you used to describe Zulfo when being

21 interviewed?

22 A. That was the moment that I found myself in.

23 Q. Now, seeing the word Turk there as a description of Zulfo and

24 saying now that that was the moment I found myself in, does that help you

25 with the question whether this was the first statement you gave when you

Page 3299

1 were still very much caught up in your anger of what had happened to you?

2 A. In Bosnia up until about 20 or 30 years ago the Serbs always

3 referred to Muslims as Turks. After that, they became Muslims. So could

4 you please explain to me how we should now move to Bosniaks? In my life

5 there are three different names for those -- for that ethnic group. Also

6 at one point there were also undeclared.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment before you move because he hasn't

8 answered the question obviously. The question was by far completely

9 different.

10 Yes, Ms. Richardson.

11 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, just briefly, I wanted to point out

12 to the Trial Chamber that the witness does not have this statement in

13 front of him and I believe Mr. Jones asked that he look at this

14 statement. So if we could have that shown to the witness.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, that's fair enough.

16 I suggest that you indicate the line -- Usher, please go next to

17 Madam Vidovic and Jones. Could you indicate on the text on this B/C/S

18 the line where the word "Turk" is used.

19 MR. JONES: If the transcript could say that I'm not getting

20 anywhere. I'm doing my best, Your Honour, with an undated statement and

21 I apologise if it's tiring to the Chamber.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Can you indicate to us as well where the line is.

23 MR. JONES: I thought -- it's page 2. 00366736.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no, no. On the Serbian text.

25 MR. JONES: It's where it says [B/C/S spoken] and it's

Page 3300

1 approximately --

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Which page? First page.

3 MR. JONES: 20 lines from the bottom.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: [B/C/S spoken].

5 MR. JONES: Yes.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Now, let me put the question to him and try.

7 Now, you have an opportunity, Mr. Zikic, to look at these three

8 pages, and on the first page you have also been referred to the word

9 "tutsin [phoen]." Have a look at that document again. Would you agree

10 that this is a transcript of your very first statement -- of the very

11 first statement you made after being exchanged? We are asking you this

12 question because this document does not bear a stamp, does not bear a

13 signature, neither yours nor anyone nor is it dated. So we need your

14 help to know whether we can take this document to be a true transcript of

15 your very first statement after your release or whether we leave it as an

16 undated, unsigned statement. What is your answer to that?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It seems to me that we need to

18 clarify two terms, the term "Turk," so as not -- so as anyone would

19 understand that I'm not trying to accuse anybody from the state or the

20 Republic of Turkey because they're Turks as well. This Turk refers to

21 the term that was used for over 500 years and longer, and perhaps to this

22 very day, referring to Muslims. But as far as the statements are

23 concerned, there are several statements so I cannot remember when I gave

24 each statement when it was taken down, written. I really don't know

25 anything about that. But I really want to explain so that the gentleman

Page 3301

1 would not understand me as referring to somebody who was from Turkey who

2 was a part of their forces. This term refers to Muslims.

3 MR. JONES: May I put one further question -- well.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Of course. I was trying to help you, Mr. Jones.

5 MR. JONES: Yes, indeed.

6 Q. Do you remember using the expression and I'm going to say it in

7 your language moja zuca? Does that mean anything to you?

8 A. Can you please repeat that?

9 Q. Moja zuca?

10 A. That's the first time in my life I'm hearing of that word and I

11 don't know what it means.

12 Q. I may come back to that.

13 MR. JONES: Your Honour I should mention that this was submitted

14 as part of a criminal complaint against Alija Izetbegovic, Sefer

15 Halilovic, and Naser Oric. It's provided by the authorities. It's not a

16 random piece of paper that we've --

17 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm not saying it was a random piece of paper, but

18 before it was admitted in evidence, obviously we could only look at it as

19 three pages unsigned, undated.

20 MR. JONES: I'm sure Your Honour appreciated --

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Whatever. Now it's an exhibit.

22 MR. JONES: Yes.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: It still remains unsigned, undated, and unstamped,

24 but at least we have had some answers to it so we will be in a better

25 position to decide whether to give it any probative value because we

Page 3302

1 admit it now on the face of it, now as it is.

2 MR. JONES: In light of this witness's testimony and other

3 factors which may come to light.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Especially so, because we may end up with the

5 person who drew this up saying, yes, this was the statement I took from

6 the witness the same day he was exchanged.

7 MR. JONES: Thank you, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: We have passed the 10.30 mark. I wonder if it's

9 convenient for you to have a break now.

10 MR. JONES: Yes. I do have a few more questions on this exhibit,

11 but a break is fine now. But I should say not making progress I thought

12 it may be and we go with him until tomorrow. This is a very important

13 witness and the Prosecution had him all yesterday.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: I am not going to stop you. I told you we are not

15 going to curtail either of you when it comes to this witness.

16 MR. JONES: Thank you.

17 --- Recess taken at 10.35 a.m.

18 --- On resuming at 11.13 a.m.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Zikic, in spite of technical developments, we

20 are stuck. The transcript is not being put on record and your testimony

21 is important, so we have to wait until the transcript is working. I'm

22 sorry for this. I'm assured it's only going to take a couple of minutes.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand, Your Honour.

24 MR. JONES: It seems to be working now.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's see, because I still haven't seen -- yes,

Page 3303

1 it's working now.

2 So, Mr. Jones, sorry for that. I hope it does not -- has not

3 created any frustration to you. Let's proceed.

4 MR. JONES: Thank you, Your Honour.

5 Q. In relation to the last exhibit, the undated statement, we have a

6 new exhibit. And just to explain, it's the cover letter by which that

7 statement, the English version, was submitted to from Frits Kalshoven and

8 it's dated 18 May 1993.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's have a look at it first before we authorise

10 you to proceed with any further questions to the witness. Are you going

11 to question the witness on this document or not?

12 MR. JONES: No. I just want to tender it to clarify the date of

13 the undated statement. Just to explain, the ERN you have 017954 on the

14 first page. Obviously we haven't copied the whole document but the

15 sequence goes up to 017957 and there's a memorandum of war crimes and

16 genocide in eastern Bosnia, the communes of Bratunac, Skelani and

17 Srebrenica committed against the Serbian population from April 1992 to

18 April 1993. That's dated Belgrade, April 1992. And then we have the

19 statement which I was referring to further along in that same document

20 starting 018061.

21 MS. RICHARDSON: May the Prosecution receive a copy of this?

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, I am taking it for granted that you are

23 receiving a copy.

24 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Where -- you just said that this is dated Belgrade

Page 3304

1 1992?

2 MR. JONES: The cover page, the very first page is 18th May,

3 1993, but then the memorandum which I referred to says Belgrade, April

4 1993.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. All right. Because that's why I raise the

6 matter.

7 MR. JONES: Yes, thank you, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Wherever I saw a date it said 19th May, 1993, and I

9 wonder if I was missing something. There is -- okay. You are tendering

10 this?

11 MR. JONES: Yes, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, of course.

13 So one moment, Judge Eser. This will be Defence Exhibit 136.

14 Judge Eser.

15 JUDGE ESER: Now, the Defence Exhibit 135 had the English version

16 and the Bosnian/Serb version. Now, was the Serb version also included in

17 this letter to Kalshoven or do you know anything about the genesis of the

18 Serb version? Was it the original and then translated into English or

19 visa versa?

20 MR. JONES: I believe the -- I'll wait for the interpretation.

21 Yes. I believe the Serb version was not attached in the document sent to

22 Mr. Kalshoven. We received it as part of a criminal complaint, as I

23 mentioned earlier, against possibly -- the B/C/S version in a criminal

24 complaint against Izetbegovic, Halilovic, and Oric, and that's -- we have

25 that document. And the ERN for that criminal report is 00632970, for the

Page 3305

1 record. And perhaps I should tender that as well. One moment, please.

2 It might be useful for me to provide that also.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Obviously I'm not going to tell you what to do and

4 what not to do, but I'll agree with you that that is useful.

5 MR. JONES: I'll tender that. I just have one copy of that for

6 now.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: The registry will attend to that, will have copies

8 made. And this will be Defence Exhibit D137.

9 MR. JONES: Thank you, Your Honour.



12 Q. Now, just a few more questions, Mr. Zikic, on this document and I

13 am going to ask you to look again at it if you could.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, we have got a different idea, Mr. Jones. I

15 think before you ask further questions to this witness on this document,

16 we are going to provide it -- provide him with it again and we are giving

17 him all the time he requires to read it completely from beginning to end.

18 And then you may go ahead with all the questions that you like.

19 MR. JONES: That's an excellent suggestion, Your Honour. Thank

20 you.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: So, Mr. Zikic, look at me, please. You have been

22 shown this document before, before the break, and you have been asked

23 questions about it. I'm giving it back to you. It's not a long

24 document; it's only two and a half pages or even less than that. Could

25 you be kind enough to read it all. And when you've -- not aloud, read it

Page 3306

1 for yourself -- and when you've read it just let me know that you've

2 finished reading it. Thank you.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In order not to take up any more

4 time, this is indeed my statement.

5 MR. JONES: Thank you.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: And in addition to that, do you have any idea when

7 you could have made this statement?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I've given so many statements,

9 I can't even remember how many.

10 MR. JONES: Well --

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Which brings us back to square one, Mr. Jones.

12 MR. JONES: He's adopted it as his statement at least now.



15 Q. Just two final questions on this statement. You told us earlier,

16 and I put it to you in your statement to The Hague investigators, that

17 when you were debriefed your statement was taped and transcribed. That's

18 the statement when you were debriefed on the day of your exchange. Now,

19 do you recall whether that statement was signed by you, the which was

20 transcribed on the day of your exchange or not?

21 A. If I remember well, my family came to pick me up immediately and

22 I didn't attend the interview at all. I'm not even in the footage that

23 was shown. My brother-in-law came and he took me to his home so that I

24 could have a bath and be sent to see a doctor. If I remember correctly.

25 God knows I really can't vouch for anything.

Page 3307

1 Q. But isn't it right you referred to a statement which was taped

2 and transcribed. So my question is: That statement, is it right that

3 you didn't sign it, the statement taken from you on the day of your

4 release?

5 A. That's possible.

6 Q. Now, you've looked at that statement. Isn't it right that

7 although you discussed your captivity in Srebrenica and you refer to

8 people like Akif, that nowhere, nowhere in that statement do you mention

9 Naser Oric?

10 A. I mentioned Naser Oric in the remaining statements except for

11 those visits up there, and I always stated that he treated us, the

12 prisoners, in a fair manner.

13 Q. Yes, but I'm just sticking with your -- the document in front of

14 you. And it's right, isn't it, that nowhere in that statement is there

15 any mention of Naser Oric?

16 A. I didn't quite finish reading it, but I do believe that I did

17 mention him. If you've gone through the statement and you see that that

18 is indeed the case, then it must be the case I suppose.

19 MR. JONES: I don't know --

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Richardson.

21 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, the only objection I have at this time it's

22 being asked of the witness whether or not he signed a statement taken

23 from -- as he was debriefed. And now we're on -- the way counsel is

24 phrasing the question as "that statement." I think the record should be

25 clear that this statement that he's being shown now, there's -- the

Page 3308

1 witness has not said that this is the same statement that he did not sign

2 or otherwise. So I just --

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Point taken.

4 MR. JONES: --

5 JUDGE AGIUS: We were not taking either Mr. Jones or Mr. Zikic

6 agreeing that this is indeed the first statement. I mean, there's no

7 agreement as of yet.

8 MS. RICHARDSON: That's fine, Your Honour. Thank you.

9 MR. JONES: We know it's before April 1993. And I was referring

10 to the 2000 statement.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: It always begs the question if it was the very

12 first statement, which would have been in October, November of 1992 and

13 the request to or, the document sent to Mr. Kalshoven.

14 MR. JONES: My point obviously, Your Honour, is this is the very

15 first statement we have. That it was sent from Mr. Kalshoven in May 1993

16 and the others date from 1994 and 2000. So I'm putting to the statement

17 that in the first statement we have there's no mention of Naser Oric. I

18 don't know if it's necessary for him to see his statement to agree with

19 me on that point. I think Your Honours --

20 JUDGE AGIUS: I think his reply is sufficient and the document is

21 there.

22 MR. JONES: Thank you.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: And the document is there.


25 Q. And I put it finally to you, Mr. Zikic, isn't the reason you

Page 3309

1 never mention Oric is that you never saw Oric in the prison? This is a

2 fantasy, an invention, that you've come up with since.

3 A. When I came back from prison I was in such a condition that I was

4 not even able to find my way back home let alone give a reliable

5 statement.

6 Q. You also told us --

7 JUDGE AGIUS: But you haven't answered the question. It has been

8 put to you, Mr. Zikic, that when you finally decided to specifically

9 mention Naser Oric, it was not because you had really met a man who told

10 you he was Naser Oric four times but because you were inventing this.

11 Mr. Jones is suggesting to you that this was an invention. It's not the

12 truth. You never met anyone called Naser Oric, that you just invented

13 this. Do you agree that you invented this or are you saying the truth

14 when you repeat it on more than one occasion that someone had met you and

15 told you he was Naser Oric?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. You may chose to believe it or

17 to disbelieve it. But no one came to seem me since it happened,

18 therefore I cannot prepare myself for this testimony. I thought it would

19 only be in relation to my time in the prison. No one ever instructed me

20 or visited me. Unfortunately they didn't even come over to see what my

21 house is like, therefore what do you expect now?

22 JUDGE AGIUS: But do you confirm that when you said that you were

23 -- you met someone who described himself as Naser Oric, you were telling

24 the truth? Or was -- or were you just inventing this story? This is

25 what Mr. Jones is asking you.

Page 3310

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not invent this story because

2 those other people who were in the prison already knew him and they said,

3 Stand up, Naser is coming.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Jones.


6 Q. The conversation about Ceca being married to Arkan is an

7 invention, isn't it?

8 JUDGE AGIUS: He has answered that question. You put it to him

9 before and he answered it.


11 Q. Another point. Yesterday you also told us that Naser Oric asked

12 you if you knew Uros Bogdanovic and Bozidar Kovacevic. Now, that's not

13 in any of your prior statements, is it, that conversation? Alleged

14 conversation. That's not something you've never told anyone before -- I

15 shouldn't say anyone. It's not in your prior statements, is it?

16 A. No. I forgot the last name you mentioned, but it's about Uros

17 Jovanovic who was captured before I was captured. He had been beaten.

18 And before they exchanged he asked me if I knew anything about him, what

19 had become of him. I said I heard he had been sent on to Bratunac and

20 then sent on to Belgrade and that he died as a result of the beating and

21 I said this because he is my neighbour.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Hold it. I don't want you to repeat this story

23 again. The question that Mr. Jones -- I'm trying to help you, sorry, Mr.

24 Jones.

25 MR. JONES: At not at all.

Page 3311

1 JUDGE AGIUS: You're putting questions and you're not getting the

2 answer.

3 MR. JONES: I'm obliged.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: He pointed out to you that here in that chair where

5 you're sitting you've told us that Naser Oric or the man who described

6 himself as Naser Oric asked you something about Uros Jovanovic. This is

7 what you told us here, but Mr. Jones is pointing out to you that in the

8 other statements that you gave before you came here, statements which we

9 have here, you never mentioned this before. And he is asking you to

10 agree or not to agree that you had never mentioned this fact before in

11 any of your statements while you are mentioning it now. Do you agree

12 that you never mentioned it before to anyone?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I disagree. I may have forgotten

14 this, but I do know that this is the truth, what I said before.


16 Q. My suggestion to you, and I won't pursue it, but I will put it

17 one more time is that each time you recount these events about your

18 captivity, you add new conversations, new events involving Naser Oric,

19 and that you're fantasizing about these conversations which never

20 happened. I know you probably won't agree with me, but that's the

21 suggestion I'm putting to you.

22 A. I don't understand the question.

23 Q. It's --

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Jones is suggesting as we go along and you

25 mention new things, basically these things are not the fruit of

Page 3312

1 recollection of what's happening but just the fruit of imagination, of

2 your imagination. Do you agree with him or not?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I disagree. It cannot be about my

4 imagination because back in those times --

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Enough.

6 Next question, Mr. Jones.

7 MR. JONES: I'm moving to a new area all together.

8 Q. Now, you were asked yesterday the following question and I'll

9 refer to 12.55.21 of the transcript. You were asked: "I'd like to ask

10 you some questions about the injuries you received while you were in

11 prison in Srebrenica. Could you tell us what type of injuries you

12 received in the beatings." That was the question.

13 You replied: "I have medical certificates. I had two broken

14 ribs, one possibly fractured."

15 But it's not true, is it, that your ribs were broken in

16 detention. They were broken when you were first arrested in Fakovici.

17 Isn't that right?

18 A. The statement that I gave says that one rib was broken in

19 Fakovici when they tied up my hands. As for the rest, I didn't even know

20 when the other ribs were fractured until I was released from prison. I

21 didn't even know that they were broken at all.

22 Q. [Previous translation continues]... just you need to be accurate

23 about when you sustained which injuries. And I'd like to refer you, it

24 may not be necessary to put it in front of the witness, to your 2000

25 statement ERN 00938905, page 3, third paragraph. It's written:

Page 3313

1 "Immediately after that another soldier ran to me and struck me

2 on my ribs, on my left side with the butt of his rifle, broke two of my

3 ribs," and this is referring to the moment of your arrest.

4 I'll carry on: "This was confirmed later by an examination done

5 by a medical doctor in Lazarevac, FRY."

6 So that's why I wanted to clarify the question you gave yesterday

7 that your ribs weren't broken in the prison; that damage was done long

8 before in Fakovici. Do you accept that?

9 A. Well, I don't think it's a yes or no question. I don't know when

10 my ribs were broken. I didn't even know. The first night I had severe

11 pain --

12 Q. Well --

13 A. -- and my conclusion was that the ribs had been fractured.

14 Q. But isn't that right that that first injury to your ribs on the

15 day of your arrest was done by a dark man, somebody you suggest as being

16 dark, possibly a Gypsy?

17 A. The man that I believed to be a dark man, I think that was my

18 statement, didn't hit me; it wasn't him. Rather, he came up to me and he

19 carried a knife and he instead of saying "Chetnik" said "Chelnik," which

20 means the leader. And then Zulfo shouted no or someone else from that

21 group at any rate was saying, There's still a lot of time before we get

22 to Srebrenica.

23 Q. Right. But it was around that time when you describe someone as

24 a soldier struck you on your ribs with a rifle butt, breaking your ribs.

25 A. What I'm saying is I felt pain on one side. The next morning I

Page 3314

1 couldn't even cough. I suffered severe pain, which means I was injured

2 at that time.

3 Q. You say that Zulfo, the person you called Zulfo, stopped you from

4 being injured further on that occasion. My question is: Isn't it

5 correct that these were violent times, this was war; it was a time when

6 an engaged person could kill a Serb in a moment of anger and vice versa.

7 That's something which was quite common at that time?

8 A. Yes, but we are talking about white people.

9 Q. Yes, but my question to you is: Isn't it right that Zulfo may

10 have saved your life on that day when the dark person approached you with

11 a knife?

12 A. It was thanks to him that you see me here today.

13 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction. The witness did not

14 say a white man or white people, he said "Beli" which may be a reference

15 to a person's name.


17 Q. We might be skipping ahead there, then, because isn't it right,

18 Mr. Zikic, that you didn't see Beli until you arrived in Srebrenica?

19 Just a simple yes or no, Mr. Zikic. You didn't see Beli on the day you

20 were arrested in Fakovici, did you?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Now, sticking with the 5th of October, you mentioned Zulfo, but

23 Zulfo didn't take you all the way to Srebrenica, did he? He -- or you

24 came to be with another group of people who took you there?

25 A. It was about 1 kilometre further down the road behind us that I

Page 3315

1 saw Zulfo in the column and I never set eyes on him again until we

2 arrived in Srebrenica.

3 Q. Right. But -- so Zulfo didn't escort you to Srebrenica, did he?

4 A. No. Actually, I didn't see him. I don't know whether he was

5 moving behind me or not.

6 Q. Okay. Now, the people who took you there you mentioned took you

7 on the van or truck, and in fact they didn't mistreat you, did they? In

8 fact they were worried about your hands losing circulation. Again, Mr.

9 Zikic, you don't need to give a lengthy answer. Is that right, that they

10 didn't mistreat you in the truck?

11 A. When I got onto the truck that was waiting, we were moving away

12 from Fakovici.

13 Q. I'm not sure if there's a problem with interpretation.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't know either, but he's certainly not --

15 there is no relation between question and answer. I suggest that you put

16 the question again and I'm sorry, Mr. Jones.

17 MR. JONES: No problem at all.

18 Q. The people on the truck didn't mistreat you, did they?

19 A. No.

20 Q. And they were concerned when they saw that your hands were blue

21 because they had been tied.

22 A. Not the men on the truck, but rather when I came outside the

23 prison the man who untied my hands said, Your hands are all black. Why

24 didn't you complain? Then someone from the group said, Why are you

25 feeling sorry for this Chetnik?

Page 3316

1 Q. Thank you. Now, staying with your injuries -- and I'm sorry to

2 have to ask you about it, but I do -- you told us yesterday how you were

3 not able to raise your right arm above a certain height, but that injury

4 was accused by Beli after you had left the prison, wasn't it? It didn't

5 happen in the prison, that particular injury?

6 A. My arm was not injured in the prison but on the truck. They

7 stopped the truck. He said, This is farewell to you now, and then he hit

8 me on my right shoulder with his rifle butt.

9 Q. And that was on the 16th of October, on the day of your exchange?

10 A. That's right, precisely.

11 Q. And isn't it also the case that when you were exchanged, that

12 locals in the area of Potocari came out and attacked not just you but the

13 other men as well because they were angry that Akif Ustic and his men had

14 been killed in an ambush?

15 A. That's not correct.

16 Q. So you're saying you weren't mistreated in any way around

17 Potocari by locals on the day of your exchange?

18 A. Not apart from some children who were there waiting. Our truck

19 was waiting for the exchange to take place and then some children climbed

20 on board, but I don't think that really matters.

21 Q. But isn't that right that the major fractures you suffered

22 occurred before and after you were in the prison and not while you were

23 actually in the prison in Srebrenica? And by that I'm referring to your

24 rib injury and your arm injury.

25 A. This is your conclusion. I don't think I could make that

Page 3317

1 conclusion myself. We were beaten in the prison. As for the injuries, I

2 do not know the extent of these specific injuries until an x-ray was made

3 in Lazarevac later on.

4 Q. Okay. You told us yesterday when you were seen in prison that it

5 was obvious that you had been beaten. I asked you a moment ago about

6 whether these were violent times. Isn't it right that someone who saw

7 you at that time with blood on your face wouldn't necessarily know when

8 or where it had happened, if it happened before you arrived in the

9 prison?

10 A. How could something be before?

11 Q. You told us you were beaten before you arrived in the prison.

12 A. That happened on the way. From Fakovici towards Poznanovici they

13 beat me and Zulfo said on one occasion, Don't be playing heroes over an

14 old man; you have others to be heroes before.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's, let's, let's bring it to -- when you arrived

16 in the prison on the 5th of October, after that long journey, did you

17 have a bloody face? Were you covered in blood?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] How can I know that?

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Jones.

20 MR. JONES: Right.

21 Q. I'm going to ask you a little bit about the other four people who

22 were in prison with you. And you've described, I think, that they were

23 black and blue; and in fact I think you said you were all, all five of

24 you, more dead than alive. Is that correct?

25 A. That morning when I arrived they were so exhausted and bloodied

Page 3318

1 that I really felt panicky.

2 Q. I was referring, actually, to the very end when you were

3 exchanged, presumably at which time you would all be in an even worse

4 condition, on the 16th of October.

5 Mr. Zikic, I see you're getting ready to give a long answer. My

6 question is simply: On the 16th of October, is it right that the five of

7 you were, in your phrase, more dead than alive, in a very bad state?

8 A. That's also what others said about us.

9 Q. I'd like to replay a section of the video we saw yesterday and it

10 concerns the third --

11 JUDGE AGIUS: The one you object being admitted?

12 MR. JONES: No, Your Honour, we were very clear that we had no

13 objection to the segment with Radic, because he's going to be a witness.

14 That segment.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Of course. You still insist on your motion, after

16 seeing the limited use that the Prosecution made of that video yesterday?

17 MR. JONES: I understand they intend to use it with the next

18 witness, so we need to preserve our position. If everyone has that on

19 their screen.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Not yet. Yes.

21 MR. JONES: If we could play a little bit of that. We don't need

22 the sound.

23 [Videotape played]


25 Q. Mr. Zikic, do you agree that Mr. Radic, at least there, he's

Page 3319

1 certainly slightly emaciated, but he doesn't seem to have any bruises or

2 injuries on his face. Do you agree?

3 A. I agree that I do not see any because in the morning we were told

4 that wash off everything, down to the last drop of blood from ourselves.

5 Q. I'm not talking about blood, Mr. Zikic. I asked you about

6 bruises or injuries on his face, and there don't appear to be any, do

7 there, at least from this clip? Is that someone who you would really

8 describe as more dead than alive?

9 A. Upon orders of Beli to beat me, he couldn't even get up so that

10 he could beat me. But he had to and he did that. But Beli was not

11 satisfied with that and made him hit me harder. But he wasn't able to do

12 that.

13 Q. My question was about his injuries, but I'm going to move on to

14 another question, and we can stop the video.

15 You told us that Zoran Brankovic on the 16th of October went

16 immediately to hospital because of his injuries. My question is: Isn't

17 that -- wasn't that to be treated for injuries he sustained after he left

18 the prison when he, as you described, was taken off the truck and

19 attacked by four people. Isn't that why he had to go to hospital?

20 A. I think that when we returned I told you that three or four

21 people grabbed him and smashed him against the concrete, and that's when

22 the blood rushed out and that's when he was injured the most.

23 Q. Precisely. And that was after you left the prison on the 16th of

24 October, wasn't it? You were outside the prison at that stage.

25 A. When we set out towards Bratunac, they took us back again and

Page 3320

1 took us all off the truck. And then again when we were going into the

2 truck to go for the exchange, this happened. So it happened in front of

3 the prison building.

4 Q. It was outside, wasn't it?

5 A. I didn't understand the question.

6 Q. This happened outside, in the open air?

7 A. In front of the prison, not inside, not in the cell.

8 Q. Thank you.

9 Now, neither you nor Mr. Sarac nor Nevenko had injuries that were

10 so bad that you had to go straight to hospital, did you, on the 16th of

11 October, 1992?

12 A. Of course we did. You saw Nevenko at least, on the photograph.

13 You saw what he looked like.

14 Q. Yes, but you mentioned that Zoran had to go straight to hospital

15 because of his injuries. But isn't that right that Sarac and Nevenko

16 were fit enough to be interviewed by the people interviewing them, and

17 didn't go straight to hospital on the 16th of the October?

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you know when they went to hospital, if they did

19 go to hospital?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've said several times already

21 that I was picked up right away and they stayed behind. I was told that

22 Zoran was sent to the hospital. That's what I was told by all of these

23 people who went to see, the citizens. I was picked up right away and I'm

24 not in the footage or photographs or anywhere. So I don't know what

25 happened with them afterwards.

Page 3321

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's move, Mr. Jones.

2 MR. JONES: Yes.

3 Q. It's right, isn't it, that you went to your home on the 18th of

4 October, 1992, before you went to hospital?

5 A. I had to go there before. How could I get to the hospital if I

6 didn't go home before?

7 Q. It's right, isn't it, that you didn't go see a doctor until the

8 19th of the October, 1992, three days after your exchange?

9 A. Yes. I remained behind.

10 Q. If we could look at the medical report which was tendered

11 yesterday by the -- I believe it was tendered by the Prosecution.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: That's P464.

13 MR. JONES: It doesn't need to be shown to the witness

14 necessarily, but let's -- looking at that report it's written: "Patient

15 was in a detention camp in Bosnia, he was beaten on several occasions.

16 OBJ." I'm not sure what that is in English. "Multiple contusions of the

17 face and head, front of the abdomen and ribcage, on the back and lower

18 back, RTG fracture of the tenth left rib, suspected fracture of the

19 eleventh rib." So there's confirmed fracture for one rib.

20 But then "TH" which I assume is therapy -- "Therapy: Rest and

21 checkup in two weeks."

22 But isn't it right when you saw the doctor then three days after

23 your exchange he told you you needed to rest and you should come back in

24 two weeks for a checkup?

25 A. In 21 days. But I didn't go back to the checkup because the same

Page 3322

1 person told me there is no therapy for that, I can just give you Brufen

2 for your pain and you have to take care not to use too much of it because

3 it's not good for your stomach. So I didn't go ...

4 Q. Okay. I just want to be clear then. You didn't need to go to

5 hospital, you didn't go to a hospital for any extended period of time

6 after that, did you? You were released and you stayed at home?

7 A. I just went for an examination. I had the x-ray and I was told

8 to report back in 21 days. When I came home an elderly woman came to see

9 me. She said, He doesn't need to see a doctor; just give him some

10 sheepskins and he can change them every 24 hours and then he doesn't need

11 to go. And then I got nine sheepskins and I changed them every 48 hours.

12 That helped me.

13 Q. Thank you. Are you able to tell us which doctor treated you?

14 Because I'm afraid we don't see it on the copy. We may need to ask for

15 the original. But can you help us with the doctor you saw and where they

16 are based?

17 A. I saw that doctor on that one occasion and never again, because

18 like I said I didn't go back for the checkup.

19 Q. We may need to pursue the original of that, but that needn't

20 detain us now.

21 You also said yesterday that you lost weight. Do you know how

22 much weight you lost when you told us you were detained for 11 days and

23 you never went to the toilet?

24 A. That is true. To this very day, I have the same problems. And I

25 had to go and see a doctor because of that the day before yesterday. As

Page 3323

1 far as my weight is concerned, I wasn't really paying attention to my

2 life. I didn't check that. If I had known what would be happening to me

3 later, perhaps I wouldn't have even gone to see the doctor at all and

4 come what may.

5 Q. Thank you. You told us yesterday of your reunion with your wife

6 and how tearful that was. And you started to tell us how your

7 brother-in-law brought you to the house in Bratunac and your wife said,

8 Budimir, have you gone crazy as well? And he replied, Drago is on the

9 stairs, please stay calm.

10 And correct me if I'm wrong, weren't you actually about to tell

11 more of a joyful story about your reunion with your wife because she

12 thought you were dead? That was the story you were about to tell us,

13 unless I'm wrong.

14 A. Look, this is not my wife; this is my sister-in-law. In the

15 meantime I had been buried. The guardhouse that I'm talking about was

16 incinerated by Zolja, so you didn't know who was in there. My sister was

17 in the cornfield with the hostess of that house who is a younger woman.

18 My sister was wounded, and she set out towards this house where these

19 guards were. She was killed on the threshold.

20 Q. Yes. Mr. Zikic, it was merely to clarify that when you told this

21 story that the tears which were shed were also of joy that you were

22 alive, not horror at your appearance. That's what I want to be clear

23 about. Because they thought you were dead -- you had died. That's all,

24 Mr. Zikic. You needn't give a lengthy answer.

25 A. The wife, when she came into the house, in the house of my

Page 3324

1 uncle's -- my cousin, she looked at me and she didn't even approach me at

2 that moment but she sat down on a chair and she kept looking at me. Only

3 later did she approach me and come up to me.

4 Q. Yes.

5 MR. JONES: Your Honour, if we could tender the next exhibit. It

6 was actually the document which was attached behind the medical report.

7 It throws light on what this witness was saying how there had been a

8 funeral service for him, but I don't intend to ask any questions about

9 that.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. This will be D137 -- 138. 138.


12 Q. Now, Mr. Zikic, I'm just going to ask you a couple more questions

13 about this period of your detention, then I'm going to go back to an

14 earlier period in 1992. So just so you know it's only two or three more

15 questions on this subject. The first is this: Is it right, then, that

16 you were not present when Sarac and the others were interviewed, as we

17 saw on the videotape? You weren't present for that?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Now, you told us that someone called -- who you think was called

20 Kukic died in the prison. You never saw him, did you?

21 A. No. They told me about it.

22 Q. You don't know personally how he died, do you, apart from what

23 you were told? Sticking with what you know yourself.

24 A. I personally don't know anything. I know about it on the basis

25 of stories told to me by those who were in the prison. This was

Page 3325

1 something that happened before I arrived.

2 Q. And it's right, isn't it, that you didn't see any killings of

3 anyone when you were in the prison?

4 A. No. Just one moment. I answered with a "no," but I didn't

5 actually see anyone.

6 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not catch everything the

7 witness said.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not see anyone.


10 Q. Okay. So now I'm going to move to a new area --

11 JUDGE AGIUS: We have another half an hour before we have the

12 next recess.

13 MR. JONES: Yes.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: So I would suggest that you use it now and we will

15 go on recess -- on break at 12.30.

16 MR. JONES: Perfect. Thank you, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: You finish when you finish. We're not going to cut

18 you short or curtail on your time, the time you need to finish with this

19 witness.


21 Q. So I'm going to go back now to early 1992 and Fakovici and the

22 situation there --

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Maybe it calls for an explanation but I think all

24 in all it doesn't, but once it has been brought to my attention I will go

25 through it.

Page 3326

1 In answering your last question the interpreters could not catch

2 everything that the witness was saying. He was about -- he was being

3 asked: "It is right, isn't it, that you didn't see any killings of

4 anyone when you were in the prison?"

5 And he started saying: "Just a moment, I answered with a no, but

6 I didn't actually see anyone."

7 What did you mean to tell us exactly?

8 A. I what I wanted to say was that I did not see anyone with my own

9 eyes.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: But did you hear of any killings inside the prison?

11 MR. JONES: He answered that yesterday and I didn't wish to

12 revisit that subject.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes., Mr. Jones, proceed.


15 Q. You told us how you were mobilised in 1992 and how the Serbs in

16 Fakovici were issued with uniforms and weapons. And you said how this

17 was distributed out of a warehouse or storage space which was located in

18 the school. Correct me if I get any of these details wrong. So the

19 weapons and the ammunition was in the school in Fakovici; that's where

20 they were stored?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And you were actually in charge of issuing weapons and

23 ammunition, weren't you, so you have a good idea of the quantities of

24 weapons and ammunition which were stored there?

25 A. I was there only at the beginning, and yesterday I was explaining

Page 3327

1 why I was exchanged. At that time there were very few weapons. I tried

2 to explain. The first thing that I saw when I got there were some old

3 type of weapons, but these weapons were using 7.62-ammunition which is

4 also used for pistols.

5 Q. Can you just help us with the dates there. When did you arrive

6 and when did you leave the depot or the warehouse, however you wish to

7 describe it?

8 A. I do not know the date. I wasn't really paying attention to it.

9 Perhaps it was in late May that I took over the depot.

10 Q. When did you -- did you remain at the depot until the 5th of

11 October, 1992, or did you leave before then?

12 A. No. No. I said, since I had to go to Bratunac to pick up the

13 mail twice a week, I asked the director in Bratunac to ask the command to

14 relieve me of this duty because I had to go to Bratunac twice a week and

15 distribute everything, pensions and social assistance was arriving. It

16 had to be distributed. So then they fulfilled my request because I

17 didn't want to be at the depot.

18 Q. And when was that that they fulfilled your request, roughly?

19 A. I said that this was in late July or early August. There was no

20 need for me to remember something like that. I don't know.

21 Q. That's fine. But isn't it right that in terms of the ammunition,

22 weapons in the school, there was a lot of ammunition, and by that I mean

23 thousand -- more than a thousand 7.62-millimetre bullets, as well as hand

24 grenades. Do you agree?

25 A. At the time that I was at the depot there weren't any, but I

Page 3328

1 don't know about the period when I left.

2 Q. You did tell us yesterday that you were issuing ammunition,

3 7.62-millimetre and other weapons. Correct me if that's wrong. You did

4 issue weapons and ammunition to people?

5 A. Would you please repeat the very end, please. I didn't hear it.

6 Q. You issued weapons and ammunition to locals in Fakovici, didn't

7 you?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. So you have at least an approximate knowledge of the quantities

10 of weapons and ammunition which was in the school, don't you?

11 A. Yes, yes. But up until July. October is quite some time later.

12 Q. We'll come back to that. This was organised by the komandir

13 Slavko Jovanovic, who was a local SDS leader, wasn't it?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Was Batko Markovic also involved in the distribution of weapons?

16 A. I don't understand "distribution."

17 Q. Well, weapons being received in your depot and then issued to

18 locals. Did you come across Batko Markovic in that capacity?

19 A. Bato [as interpreted] Markovic had nothing to do with the depot

20 and he didn't hang around the depot at least. For as long as I was there

21 he never entered it.

22 Q. Well, let's stay with Slavko Jovanovic. Isn't it right that

23 since he was an SDS leader that the SDS was involved in distributing

24 weapons to the local Serb population in Fakovici?

25 A. Well, if there is one, then somebody must have been involved, but

Page 3329

1 I cannot say whether that was so. I cannot say yes or no.

2 Q. Well, I'm looking at your 2000 statement, ERN 00938904, third

3 paragraph, and it seems you said: "We had M-48s and semi-automatic

4 rifles known as PAP. The local SDS had given them to the village."

5 Now, do you recall saying that and is that true?

6 A. I don't remember that the SDS was giving it. I think I said that

7 they had M-48s, semi-automatic rifles, and --

8 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not understand that word.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But that was during the time I was

10 in the warehouse. For later, I had no idea about weapons and I didn't go

11 to the warehouse at all. I have been relieved of everything that related

12 to that.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: The essence of it is -- what we want to know is

14 whether you know if the SDS was handing -- was making these weapons

15 available or not; whether, in other words, the SDS was involved in making

16 these weapons available. Because you said so in one of the statements.

17 You said so.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that all the parties, the

19 Muslim, the Croat, and the Serbian were included or participated in the

20 arming.


22 Q. Now, I want to ask you about the numbers of soldiers in Fakovici,

23 and that's bearing in mind what you told us yesterday, that for you a

24 person with a weapon, whether organised or not, is a soldier. Now, on

25 that definition of yours, how many soldiers would you say were in

Page 3330

1 Fakovici in October 1992?

2 A. In October 1992 I think 15 soldiers at the very most, up to 20

3 armed soldiers. I'm telling you again. That was no sort of army really,

4 because when we say "army," we all know what that means.

5 Q. Isn't it true that there was in fact an battalion strength unit

6 of the VRS in Fakovici linked to the VRS in Skelani at that time?

7 A. Skelani were a bit stronger but as I said, we were cut off from

8 Skelani and Bratunac equally, therefore I can't say anything about either

9 Bratunac or Skelani. All I can tell you is about my so-called local

10 commune of Fakovici.

11 Q. And Fakovici, you told us that you issued weapons to people but a

12 lot of people didn't know how to use the weapons. Isn't it right that

13 training was organised, particularly in Ruljevici, precisely so that

14 people would know how to handle these weapons?

15 A. I don't know that, when that happened. I only had to do with a

16 post office throughout this entire period. I never even travelled

17 anywhere. I don't know about Ruljevici. It's in a different area.

18 Q. Let's turn to another weapon which you mentioned which is a

19 three-barrelled gun. That was in fact an anti-aircraft gun, wasn't it?

20 A. Believe it or not, I don't know. We used it during the night to

21 fire tracer bullets into the surrounding woods. We would fire in order

22 to find out if there was anyone over there just in case of an attack.

23 Whether it can take planes down or not, I didn't really know much about

24 that.

25 Q. More questions about that. Firstly, this gun was yellow, wasn't

Page 3331

1 it, in colour?

2 A. Believe it or not, I have no idea.

3 Q. Isn't that what you've referred to in a prior statement as the

4 yellow one, moja zuca?

5 A. I'm sorry. I don't understand.

6 Q. I'll skip that question. I'd like to refer you to your 2000

7 statement to the investigators again, page 1, ERN 00938904, and again you

8 don't need to look at it. I'll just quote and see if you agree. "On

9 October 5, 1992, I was collecting corn in my field with my wife Milenka.

10 At 12.00 p.m. they started shooting from all sides. It was automatic

11 weapon fire, machine-gun fire, and three-barrelled anti-aircraft fire.

12 Shoulder-mounted rockets were fired during the attack."

13 Now, isn't it right when you spoke to investigators of this

14 Tribunal you described that three-barrelled gun as an anti-aircraft gun,

15 or at least one which was shooting anti-aircraft fire?

16 A. I didn't say that it could fire at planes. I don't know now

17 whether it could be used to fire at planes.

18 Q. So that was wrongly recorded in your statement of 2000? That's

19 not something you said?

20 A. No.

21 Q. It's right, isn't it, that anti-aircraft guns not meant for

22 firing at human beings, are they then meant for firing at aircraft? We

23 all take that as read.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: You don't need to answer that question.

25 Move to the next, Mr. Jones.

Page 3332


2 Q. Isn't it right that that three-barrelled gun was being used to

3 shoot at people on the 5th of October, 1992?

4 A. Yes. How should I know what they would have done? I suppose

5 they didn't keep it there for nothing.

6 Q. You heard it shooting on the day, didn't you?

7 A. On that day when the shooting started, it was coming from all

8 sides at the same time. You couldn't really distinguish anything.

9 Everything that was there to be used was used. We didn't really put up

10 any resistance, because if we put up resistance we wouldn't have just

11 gone down like that.

12 Q. But that gun, the three-barrelled gun, was shooting, wasn't it?

13 And that was something you heard.

14 A. But also further up from the village - this is something I

15 learned when I returned home - a set of ammunition was found for the

16 Browning gun which belonged to the Muslim forces. For the Browning. And

17 in some cases it may be the same kind.

18 Q. Right. In fact, you know quite a lot about calibres and

19 ammunition and artillery, don't you, Mr. Zikic?

20 A. No. Believe it but not. What I said, just to mention something

21 only in those days when I was, I had to know what goes with each of the

22 weapons [as interpreted].

23 Q. Right. I'm going to ask you to try and keep your answers a bit

24 shorter and give a yes, no answer if you can, because we do want to

25 conclude as soon as we can. Do you know that the three-barrelled gun was

Page 3333

1 actually a 23-millimetre gun?

2 A. No.

3 Q. You just told us that you needed to know which ammunition went

4 with which weapon. This three-barrelled gun in Fakovici, presumably you

5 were aware of what calibre it took, what calibre of ammunition?

6 A. In came maybe a month or two before and the ammunition was not

7 brought; it was kept near the house where it was mounted.

8 Q. And whose house was that, if you can help us with that?

9 A. Nikolic. If you mean the father's name, in that case, Dragan

10 Nikolic.

11 Q. Wasn't that gun captured during the 5th of October, 1992, attack,

12 if you knew that, if you learnt that later?

13 A. I have no idea what happened after the 5th. It was probably

14 seized. Why would they have left it behind?

15 Q. Right.

16 MR. JONES: I have a new -- actual it's not a new exhibit. It's

17 P527 which I'm going to refer to. And I wonder if a copy could be shown

18 to the witness. I understand it's been given a P number. If it hasn't

19 been tendered --

20 JUDGE AGIUS: I can't help you there. Only the registrar can

21 give you the information.

22 MR. JONES: I can mention the ERN number of the original.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm informed by Mr. Siller that we don't have such

24 an exhibit until now.

25 MR. JONES: Okay. Well --

Page 3334

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's move on the Prosecution's side. Could you

2 check, please. In other words, it hasn't even been premarked?

3 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

4 MR. JONES: If I mentioned the ERN number? Would that assist?

5 JUDGE AGIUS: But the problem is the registrar was misled by what

6 we have in the transcript because the transcript said 527. And I can

7 vividly recall you saying 257 and not 527. And then you also gave the

8 ERN number which you can perhaps repeat now.

9 MR. JONES: The original is 03734021 to 03734022. In fact, the

10 English just has an ET suffix afterwards.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: I apologise to you, Mr. Jones, for the mistake. It

12 is already exhibited -- tendered, yes.

13 Usher, could you please put on the ELMO the English text and give

14 the witness the text in his own language.


16 Q. I'd refer you, Mr. Zikic, just to the second paragraph and I'll

17 read it in English.

18 "In this way we were informed that the attack against these

19 villages started simultaneously, 5 October 1992, at 1200 hours and lasted

20 until 1600 hours. A total of 22 members of the Serbian army were killed

21 while the enemy had around 40 dead. On this occasion the enemy burnt

22 down several family houses and the old school in Fakovici and took away a

23 three-barrel M-55 anti-aircraft gun and a four-barrel 382-millimetre MB

24 mortar, one of which was not working; three or four Zoljas, 64-millimetre

25 MAT hand-held rocket launcher; one M84 PM light machine-gun; ten AP

Page 3335

1 automatic rifle; a number of hand grenades; and 1500 7.62-millimetre

2 bullets. And according to another source, in addition to the above

3 stated, two tractors of ammunition."

4 Now, Mr. Zikic, you've told us you were issuing weapons and

5 ammunition from May 1992 until I think you said July or August. I'd like

6 to go through this list and see if you're familiar with some of these

7 items and whether you can confirm that they were weapons which you're

8 aware of as being in Fakovici on the day of the attack. We dealt with

9 the three-barrel anti-aircraft gun. Are four-barrel gun, are you aware

10 of a four-barrel gun in Fakovici?

11 A. For as long as I was at that storage where the weapons were being

12 kept, they had that three-barrel weapon that I told you about that was

13 mounted on a truck. As for the remaining weapons, I've already told you

14 everything I know.

15 Q. Okay. In that case I won't go through the list, and there's no

16 need to tender this; it's already an exhibit.

17 But if that is right, Mr. Zikic, that list of weaponry, that's a

18 lot of weaponry for a small town, isn't it? Is it possible that -- let

19 me rephrase that. You accept, don't you, there was possibly that much

20 weaponry in Fakovici on the 5th of October, 1992, what we've seen on the

21 list?

22 A. I find that incredible. I do have a remark to make, however.

23 You say 22 soldiers were killed. A total number of soldiers killed in

24 the area on that day would be 23, and I can read it out to you if you

25 like. These are soldiers and where the women, too, could be soldiers.

Page 3336

1 Q. That's all right. That's not necessary. You say you confirm

2 that 23 soldiers died. Is that correct?

3 A. No. On that day, the general attack that was carried out, 25

4 inhabitants were killed. And soldiers. A total of 25 persons. There's

5 there's a list name by name; I have it here. If women, too, are to be

6 considered soldiers. Well, anyone can say whatever they like.

7 Q. Well, on your definition, Mr. Zikic, surely if a woman picked up

8 a weapon and started shooting, she would be a soldier?

9 A. Of course.

10 Q. Moving on from that subject.

11 A. But this never happened.

12 Q. Mr. Zikic, you were arrested in the early stages of the attack,

13 weren't you? So you didn't see everything that happened on that day.

14 A. I was arrested --

15 Q. [Previous translation continues]... we've heard your story. We

16 don't need to revisit it.

17 Zoljas you've referred to in your testimony. It's right, isn't

18 it, that a Zolja can set fire to a building pretty easily?

19 A. Well, I -- well, I can't answer the question whether it can set

20 fire to anything or not.

21 Q. Didn't you tell us that the guardhouse was hit by a Zolja, that

22 it went up in flames as a result?

23 A. I didn't say that it burned down the house. The greatest number

24 of victims was in that house, I think six. And they were so burned down

25 to the extent that you couldn't identify any of them. There was just

Page 3337

1 ashes left.

2 Q. That guardhouse, is that the one you said was reinforced? You

3 described the guardhouse as being reinforced -- sorry, if you could give

4 me a moment, Your Honour.

5 [Defence counsel confer]

6 I can certainly pause there.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated]

8 MR. JONES: This is a convenient time.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: We will have a minutes break starting from now.

10 --- Recess taken at 12.32 p.m.

11 --- On resuming at 1.02 p.m.

12 MR. JONES: Your Honour, over the break I reviewed the remaining

13 questions which I had and in the interests of finishing with this witness

14 today, a witness who's probably very tired after two days, I can

15 certainly be finished within 15 to 20 minutes. I understand that you're

16 not putting any pressure on me to finish, but I would certainly try to

17 conclude --

18 JUDGE AGIUS: There's definitely no pressure on you.

19 I am to imagine that we are to expect a re-examination?

20 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, Your Honour, a very brief one at that.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: That's perfect. So let's get cracking.

22 MR. JONES: Thank you, Your Honour.

23 Q. Mr. Zikic, just a few more questions after the 5th of October,

24 1992. Isn't it right that on that day there were hundreds of civilians,

25 men, women, and children, all in your village running around, grabbing

Page 3338

1 food? That sort of thing?

2 A. That is true. The numbers were even greater, judging by what was

3 taken from the village on that day.

4 Q. Would you even say thousands? Could there have been thousands of

5 people?

6 A. Everything that was taken away from those villages, that

7 certainly -- that amount of things would have taken a great many people

8 because our people returned the next day to the villages and everything

9 had been taken away. I don't mean sofas and stuff like that. All the

10 valuables, all food and wheat. It would have taken a great many people

11 to simply carry all those things off.

12 Q. You saw some of that on the day. Wasn't it a scene of absolute

13 chaos with these women, children, civilians, and people in uniforms as

14 well all there in the space of your village? Would you accept that it

15 was a chaotic scene? That's all I'm asking you.

16 A. I think a civilised nation may find it very difficult to

17 understand what I'm telling you. In addition to shooting people were

18 banging on some cans and they were killing dogs. It was seething from

19 all sides, all over the place. There was a lot of noise, and God knows

20 what was being done. I don't think this is something you would find easy

21 to understand, coming from a civilised nation as you are.

22 Q. Mr. Zikic, isn't it right that with all these people and all this

23 going on, these people were completely out of control?

24 A. It is my opinion that it was indeed out of control. Someone had

25 to know about this, obviously, but it's difficult to speak about these

Page 3339

1 things now, whether had control over what was happening or not. It's

2 impossible for me to say.

3 Q. The banging of pots. Was that women and children banging on pots

4 to make a great deal of noise? Is that what it was?

5 A. It was probably the civilian population, as they were seizing

6 livestock just in case there was anyone nearing to make it easier for

7 them to collect in livestock.

8 Q. You told us they took livestock. I believe you mentioned that

9 wheat was taken from your brother. Isn't it right that these people were

10 desperate for food?

11 A. I understand that fully.

12 Q. Now --

13 A. Why else would they, for example, be taking a horse away in case

14 they didn't need that?

15 Q. And you even mentioned I think that people were chasing chickens

16 and you thought it extraordinary that they could catch a chicken. It's

17 right, isn't it, that if you were trying to control those people it's

18 pretty hard to catch someone who is chasing a chicken, pretty hard to

19 control these people?

20 A. As for the chickens that were caught, it took a great number of

21 civilians. It would have been impossible because the next morning --

22 well, not me personally, but those who survived and crossed the Drina

23 River, there was not a single chicken left in any of the villages. They

24 had all been released. If they had been pent up, well okay. But there

25 was not chicken to be seen anywhere around for miles. Therefore, there

Page 3340

1 were probably many people doing that.

2 Q. My point is this, Mr. Zikic, in one of the statements we've seen

3 you've said the people in uniform didn't try to control the civilians.

4 But what I'm putting to you in this scene of absolute pandemonium, this

5 scene of people running around, grabbing chickens, no one, no army could

6 stop them from doing what they wanted to do to get food. Is that

7 something you accept? Is that what you accept?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Now, moving to the burning of houses, you didn't actually any

10 houses being set on fire -- by that I mean a person putting a house to a

11 flame on the 5th of October, 1992, did you? You saw smoke and you saw

12 buildings on fire but you never saw a person setting fire to a house?

13 A. No, except Akif told me that God had set fire to my house.

14 That's when I was in prison.

15 Q. I was really asking what you saw with your own eyes. You don't

16 know, do you, whether some -- whether -- thank you.

17 A. No.

18 Q. You don't know either, do you, whether some of the damage which

19 you later saw in Fakovici to houses was caused by missiles, bombs, or

20 Zoljas rather than -- because of being set on fire?

21 A. Everything -- I was wondering to myself, how was it possible to

22 set so many things on fire at the same time along a distance of 8, 10, or

23 12 kilometres, all these villages burning at the same time. This could

24 not have been done by a weapon. There must have been some flammable

25 fluid that was used or something. I'm not going into that because I

Page 3341

1 simply don't know, but I don't think it was done by a weapon.

2 Q. Let's look at what you've said about all the villages being set

3 on fire at the same time. You're not including the Muslim villages

4 Zanjevo, Voljevica and those other villages in that description, are you?

5 Because they were not destroyed on that day, were they?

6 A. No. As I said, in the month of June Zanjevo was evacuated

7 because they received word that they should evacuate a long time earlier.

8 I don't know about Voljevica. That was not in my area. I'm talking

9 about Zanjevo. There was nothing there burning on that day because they

10 had left before that time.

11 Q. It's not because they left, is it? Isn't it right that it's

12 because the Serbs had burnt the houses in Zanjevo back in June after the

13 people were expelled? So those houses were already burnt?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Isn't it also right that on that day, the 5th of October, 1992,

16 there was a massive barrage of artillery from the other side of the

17 Drina, from the Serb side, as a counterattack against the Muslim attack?

18 Is that something you're aware of?

19 A. No. This didn't happen. They left Skelani but they couldn't

20 cross from Bosnia. They headed down the right-hand side riverbank of the

21 Drina River. And when it was all over, they started.

22 Q. I'm no talking about not necessarily Bosnian Serb forces, but

23 artillery on the other side of the Drina in Serbia, that they were

24 shooting grenades on the 5th of October to try and repel the Muslim

25 forces or the attacking forces. Is that something you either saw or

Page 3342

1 heard of at some later stage?

2 A. I understand. I did hear about it later while I was in Serbia.

3 There was no shooting. We left at 1600 hours all together from Fakovici

4 with the army, and what do I know? Up until that point, nothing had

5 happened.

6 Later I found out when the men in Skelani were told, were

7 informed, they tried to head towards us through Bosnia but they were not

8 allowed or they simply couldn't, so they took the Serbian side of the

9 river. And there they used mortars to fire a number of missiles. I'm

10 not sure how many. But I was quite far away from Fakovici when I was

11 told something along the lines of, These Chetniks of yours are late,

12 aren't they?

13 Q. And those men from Skelani, that would be VRS, Bosnian Serb army

14 forces?

15 A. Yes, yes.

16 Q. Just three more questions or four more. Yesterday you went

17 through methodically saying which house was destroyed first and then

18 second. At best that wasn't something you saw with your own eyes; that

19 was something you were told afterwards?

20 A. No. Something that I was watching from below the bank of the

21 River Drina and I was watching my own house burning. I saw this with my

22 own eyes; the distance is perhaps 300 to 400 metres. I was close to the

23 centre of Fakovici because that's where my house is, in the very centre

24 of Fakovici.

25 Q. Did you see Dragan Nikolic's house, the house where you said the

Page 3343

1 three-barrelled gun was stationed? Did you see that as one of the houses

2 which went up -- which was destroyed?

3 A. Well, you see, I've already said that I was near that house. The

4 distance was maybe about 100 metres. The cottage that I referred to, I

5 said whose, and this was perhaps 100 metres from that house. It wasn't

6 burning when I was there.

7 Q. I'll stop you there for a moment. You mentioned that you were

8 there at the house. Did you at any time yourself shoot the

9 three-barrelled gun which you referred to earlier at the people who were

10 attacking?

11 A. You don't have to believe me, but I was issued with an M-48 and I

12 never fired a single bullet nor would I ever do so. I'm the kind of man

13 who doesn't -- it's not so easy to shoot a man. At least that's what I

14 think.

15 Q. Now, this was the first -- correct me if I'm wrong, this was the

16 first action which you had seen where your village was attacked, wasn't

17 it?

18 A. The first action that I saw was that one, but every third or

19 fourth night there were attempts from the woods and you could hear

20 shooting from there. Because all the Serbian villages before Fakovici

21 were burned. Fakovici was the only one that was not burned on the day

22 that I was captured.

23 Q. It's just that yesterday you described that you knew the tactics,

24 speaking of the Muslims. But isn't it right that those tactics you

25 described, expelling people, burning their homes, are the tactics which

Page 3344

1 you saw the SDS and Serbs adopt in Zanjevo when they expelled Muslims

2 from their homes?

3 A. No, I wouldn't say that because before that -- I don't know when,

4 but a month before that Ratkovici, Ducici, Dvorista, Bradjevina, and I

5 can't remember all the villages, were burned. This was perhaps a month

6 before that. And as soon as that was done --

7 Q. That's not something you saw, did you? You weren't present in

8 Ratkovici or Bradjevina, were you?

9 A. I could see some of the villages when they were burning because

10 those that are closer -- but you could see such as Vesici. I didn't

11 mention all of them. Maybe ones that are half a kilometre to a kilometre

12 away as the crow flies up in Brdo. Then when you come back to the

13 village, there wasn't a single Muslim left.

14 Q. We won't deal with Ratkovici or Bradjevina. I want to ask you

15 one final question to clarify something that appeared to have been said

16 yesterday. It appeared in the transcript that the church in Fakovici was

17 destroyed, but that's not right, is it? The church wasn't destroyed, it

18 was the vicarage or the parish building where the priests lived. Is

19 that right? The church wasn't destroyed?

20 A. It's true that the church did not burn down. They only broke the

21 door down and entered and wrote down, We will come back, signed Alija,

22 which doesn't necessarily mean this was Alija Izetbegovic.

23 Q. One final question. The school which you referred to earlier as

24 being a storage space where weapons and ammunition was stored, was that

25 damaged?

Page 3345

1 A. The glass wasn't even shattered on it.

2 Q. All right. Thank you.

3 MR. JONES: No further questions.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Jones.

5 Re-examination, Ms. Richardson.

6 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour.

7 Re-examined by Ms. Richardson:

8 Q. Mr. Zikic, you testified previously on direct and you were asked

9 on cross about seeing Naser Oric or talking to him during your time that

10 you were imprisoned in Srebrenica. Do you recall that?

11 A. I remember that and I remember it well.

12 Q. And the person who came to you and said his name was Naser Oric,

13 did this person come -- was it the same person that came to you the four

14 times while you were in prison in Srebrenica?

15 A. Yes, that is the same person.

16 Q. And did anyone else other than that individual come to you and

17 claim to be Naser Oric?

18 A. This is what the prisoners knew, those who came to the prison

19 before I did.

20 Q. Okay. But my --

21 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't think that is an answer to your question.

22 It may be a question of interpretation. Could you repeat your question

23 again, please.

24 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes indeed I will, Your Honour.

25 Q. Did anyone else, any other person, come to you and say to you

Page 3346

1 that I am Naser Oric? Other than the person you saw the four times, did

2 anyone else come to you and say I am Naser Oric?

3 A. I stated that he said I am Naser Oric. When the first visit took

4 place, we were sitting on the floor because we all had difficulties in

5 standing up. One of the prisoners said, Hurry-up, Naser is coming in.

6 They knew him from before.

7 Q. All right. When you met Akif, when Akif came to visit, did he

8 say he was Naser Oric?

9 A. I know Akif, so he couldn't say that he was him.

10 Q. All right. And when you were interrogated or questioned by this

11 Mirzat, did that person say to you that he was Naser Oric?

12 A. No.

13 Q. And when you were interviewed in the -- by the police during one

14 of the times that you were questioned, did at that time while they were

15 questioning you say that they were Naser Oric?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Now, as the postmaster or manager of the Fakovici post office.

18 This is a very public position. As you were in the public eye -- I guess

19 what I'm trying to ask is you were known? A lot of people knew you?

20 A. Of course. I think that more people knew me than the president

21 of the Bratunac municipality. The people liked me, both Muslims and

22 Serbs.

23 Q. And in fact one of the guards in the prison also knew you prior

24 to your being kept prisoner there.

25 A. Yes. He knew me. He was a former police officer from Bratunac.

Page 3347

1 His nickname was Cude. His last name was Omerovic and his first name was

2 Sabahudin.

3 Q. Now, you were asked a series of questions from the statement you

4 gave in 1994, and I'm not going to show you the statement again at this

5 time. But my question to you is: You had an opportunity to read this

6 statement. Is that correct?

7 A. I don't remember.

8 Q. All right. Well, let me just ask you in this statement that I'm

9 reading from and I think it was entered into evidence by the Defence. I

10 don't have the Defence number at this time, but the statement ERN --


12 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: D135. Let's move, Ms. Richardson, because we have

14 questions as well.

15 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour. I will.

16 Q. You say in this statement you noticed two black -- two blacks

17 between the soldiers and one of them approached you, lifted you, and put

18 a knife to your throat. Now, did this incident involve one person who

19 you term as a black person or did it involve two?

20 A. No. I always said that when I was captured one black man ran

21 towards me with a knife.

22 Q. All right. So if it says two in this statement, this is not --

23 this is inaccurate. Is that true?

24 A. It's not true that they were -- there were two. There was one,

25 and that is what I've always said and I stand by that. I cannot say

Page 3348

1 there were two when there was only one. If you allow me to say something

2 more about that question. I wouldn't be sure unless some of the soldiers

3 asked me as we were on the road, Do you know, Chetnik, what jihad is?

4 And I said, I don't know. Do you know what mujahedin are? I said, I

5 don't know. Well, that's what you saw and then you will see when they

6 start severing Serbian heads. They didn't say "cutting," but severing

7 Serbian heads. So that's how I got to that conclusion when they said,

8 you will see. That's how I came to the conclusion that it was someone

9 from the outside. It didn't state on his forehead, but I don't want to

10 claim now if he was a mujahedin.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's not open new chapters.


13 Q. Thank you If you can keep your answers as brief as possible;

14 we're running short on time.

15 Now, with respect to your statement in 1994 it also says that you

16 stated that during the interrogation that Naser Oric would visit the

17 room. Is that true? Or did he only visit the other four times?

18 A. Yes, but he only talked to us through the bars. I can't remember

19 what you call them.

20 Q. But he was not present during the interrogation?

21 A. No, no.

22 Q. All right --

23 A. On either of the occasions, no.

24 Q. So if it says that in your statement, this is also inaccurate?

25 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the witness.

Page 3349

1 JUDGE AGIUS: When you repeat or you put a second question like

2 this, you confuse -- automatically you confuse the witness.

3 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I'll just withdraw that question,

4 in fact.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: The moment he denied the presence of Naser Oric in

6 the course of both interrogations, because he mentioned two, that's it,

7 you have your answer. You don't need to put the question again.

8 MS. RICHARDSON: Point taken, Your Honour. I'll move on to

9 something else.

10 Q. You also testified that Zoran Brankovic was smashed during the

11 exchange or when he was taken off the truck, you said by three to four

12 people. Could you tell us, were those people were civilian or military

13 clothing?

14 A. They were wearing military clothing, and this was done in front

15 of the truck, so I could see that with my own eyes.

16 Q. And you said that your arm was injured during that period of time

17 as well by Beli. Is this Beli the same person who would beat you while

18 you were in the prison?

19 A. That is the same Beli. I don't know his name, but there is a

20 village Pale near Srebrenica and I found out that he's from Pale. But

21 please don't confuse that with the Pale near Sarajevo. This is Pale near

22 Srebrenica that I'm talking about.

23 Q. Now, you were asked about the injuries you received, whether they

24 were prior to your being in the prison or did they occur before. And you

25 previously testified that you were beaten during the time that you were

Page 3350

1 in prison.

2 A. I'm sorry, you have asked this about my arm but I have already

3 forgotten about that a little bit. That was Beli's last farewell to me

4 because they stopped the truck and he had to say something once he had

5 stopped the truck. He climbed up on to the tire and struck me on the

6 right shoulder and said, Chetnik, this is my last farewell to you.

7 Q. And your teeth -- when you were struck in the mouth with a rifle,

8 were you in the prison at that time and your teeth were knocked out?

9 MR. JONES: I'm not sure about that evidence and if my learned

10 friend can refer us to the transcript so we can check if that's an

11 accurate statement.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: First he stated they were knocked out and then he

13 corrected himself and said they were actually broken.

14 When did that happen? Did it happen while you were still in the

15 cell or did it happen after you were in prison or after you had been

16 taken out of the prison cell?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I never said that when I was at --

18 having my interrogation with Mirzat. There was a soldier standing at the

19 door on the way out with a rifle placed across his shoulders. Then he

20 turned around and with the barrel suddenly hit me. And that's when the

21 -- I lost three or four teeth. One fell out; the rest were broken. One

22 was knocked out when I was captured, when I was being tied. But I'm not

23 sure exactly when it was knocked out.


25 Q. With respect to your -- with respect to your visit to the doctor

Page 3351

1 after you were exchanged, prior to visiting the doctor, and we had an

2 exhibit of your medical report, prior to that visit which was about three

3 days later, you testified, did you see a doctor or did a doctor examine

4 you immediately after you were released? The same day.

5 A. No. I was supposed to go to the hospital to have a chest x-ray,

6 so that's all that there is. I was supposed to report back on the 21st;

7 I didn't go. I told you that some woman told me about these sheepskins

8 and that's how it all ended, I'm talking about the sheepskins. That is

9 the actually the sum total of my treatment.

10 Q. Did you -- all right. Well, if you would permit me to ask, Your

11 Honour, I do need to lead a little bit on this with respect to a

12 particular visit I'm referring to.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, go ahead, if you are, and we'll see what comes

14 out of it.


16 Q. Did you -- were you examined by a doctor in Bratunac, a Veljko,

17 and then given papers to go to the hospital for treatment? Do you recall

18 that?

19 A. Veljko was a doctor. After I had a bath I went there and Dr.

20 Veljko was there and he gave me something for my pain because my wife and

21 sister-in-law were waiting already waiting for me to travel to Serbia.

22 Q. And what day was that? Was that the same day you were released?

23 A. No, no. I spent the night at my wife's sister in Bratunac. I

24 said that already. I had a bath there, I spent the night there. So the

25 next day I went towards Lazarevac. Once I got to Lazarevac, I didn't go.

Page 3352

1 My son actually wanted me to go right away, but I was too weak and

2 because of my eyes. He wanted me to go. He asked me to go but I didn't.

3 So I actually went to see the doctor on the 19th. I knew myself that a

4 doctor really couldn't do much for me.

5 Q. All right. Now, with respect to the women in Fakovici, were they

6 given weapons to your knowledge?

7 A. No. Men over 50 didn't have any kind of obligation, and that is

8 why it was easy for me also to be relieved of my duty at the depot. And

9 women also.

10 Q. You were also asked about a guardhouse and I think you -- I

11 believe you testified that six people died in that house. Do you recall

12 that?

13 A. Yes, I do and ...

14 Q. Okay. If you would just answer with a yes and then I'll ask the

15 other part of the question. When did you learn what happened -- or did

16 there come a time when you learned what happened to that guardhouse and

17 how it was incinerated?

18 A. I found out only once I left the prison.

19 Q. While you were in the prison, was it ever discussed or did you

20 hear anyone discussing the destruction of the guardhouse?

21 A. The only thing I know about the guardhouse is that when I was

22 captured and tied down, somebody shouted, They're done for. I apologise,

23 but I have to say, Fuck their Chetnik mother. And that's when the

24 withdrawal began, once that house fell.

25 Q. And do you know what was used to destroy the guardhouse?

Page 3353

1 A. How could I not know? Because that is the reason why they buried

2 me. Everything inside was destroyed by Zoljas.

3 Q. Well, how was the -- if you could, in brief, just tell us what

4 weapon was used to destroy the guardhouse.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: He's just told you, the Zoljas.


7 Q. Do you recall a discussion about a rocket launcher being used at

8 any point?

9 JUDGE AGIUS: A Zolja is a rocket launcher, Ms. Richardson.

10 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, Your Honour, I just want to use the correct

11 term. He's previously testified about the rocket launcher. I want to

12 stick to the same word.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't understand. What kind of

14 a launcher are you talking about? The ones that Muslims used us or that

15 we used the Muslims.


17 Q. As a matter of fact, at this point I'll just leave this subject

18 matter alone.

19 Let's go to the looting that you were just testifying about. You

20 testified that and agreed that the people were out of control and that

21 they were taking property. And on your examination yesterday you

22 testified that there was someone who was taking a cow and that the

23 soldier or the soldiers were assisting. Is that correct?

24 A. That's the only thing that I could see exactly on that day. I

25 know the man; I don't know his name. And it was over and done with. The

Page 3354

1 soldiers were helping. The cow was very strong and he couldn't do it by

2 himself --

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Stop. Can you explain to me Ms. Richardson if he

4 said yesterday why he needs to repeat it on re-examination?

5 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I wanted to be clear that in fact

6 the soldiers were assisting.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: I think he said it yesterday.

8 MS. RICHARDSON: That's fine. At this time, Your Honour, I don't

9 have any more questions.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Ms. Richardson.

11 Judge Brydensholt.

12 Questioned by the Court:

13 JUDGE BRYDENSHOLT: I have only one question. When the Muslim

14 village, Zanjevo, was burned in down in June 1992 you said it was your

15 people who did it. But who was it? Was it people from Fakovici

16 participating in the burning down of this Muslim village?

17 A. It was not burned on one day; this was burned by the villagers.

18 They would burn hay in the fields in order to scare us in Fakovici.

19 JUDGE BRYDENSHOLT: So does that mean that it was the Muslims

20 themselves who burned this Muslim village down in your opinion?

21 A. No.

22 JUDGE BRYDENSHOLT: It's not quite clear to me who did it then.

23 Who set fire to those houses?

24 A. Serbs, of course.

25 JUDGE BRYDENSHOLT: But was it soldiers or the village guard from

Page 3355

1 your village? Do you know anything about this?

2 A. I said earlier that you usually they would get drunk, the

3 villagers, go down to Fakovici, and then on the way home they would burn

4 one by one, and that's how the houses burnt. A few of them stayed whole,

5 stayed intact.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Judge Eser.

7 JUDGE ESER: I would like to address just one issue. During

8 your -- when you have been taken to prison in Srebrenica, in these 11

9 days have you been told at any time for what reason you are -- you have

10 been captured and are kept there?

11 A. No.

12 JUDGE ESER: And now have you been told during this time how long

13 it will last, that you would be kept for only a short time or that could

14 go on longer? Or didn't they say anything?

15 A. We didn't know anything and nobody said anything.

16 JUDGE ESER: And when have you been informed that you will be

17 exchanged? Was it shortly before the exchange or was it announced for

18 some time, hours, days?

19 A. No. What happened was that that morning we were told, Get out

20 and wash yourselves, and then you will go for the exchange.

21 JUDGE ESER: Thank you.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you so much, Judge Eser. I have got very

23 few questions. The first one arises from one of the questions that has

24 been put to you by Judge Eser. You were not told why you were being kept

25 in the prison there, you said. Were you actually charged -- one moment.

Page 3356

1 One you actually charged at any time with any crime while you were there?

2 A. Why would I have been charged? What for?

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Just answer yes or no, otherwise you will have to

4 come again tomorrow.

5 A. No.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: This Zulfo, do you know -- after this event of your

7 arrest and detention in the prison in Srebrenica, did you ever see this

8 Zulfo again in your life?

9 A. Never.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Have you ever seen a photo of this person?

11 A. No.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Have you ever seen him on television?

13 A. No. We don't have the TV programmes from the Federation or from

14 Republika Srpska. All the TV stations that we receive are from Serbia.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Now, you described a person who came to

16 your cell four times, saying that he was Naser Oric. And you told us you

17 had never seen this person before.

18 A. Yes.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Have you ever seen a photo of this person since you

20 were arrested?

21 A. No.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Have you ever seen a picture of him on any

23 newspaper?

24 A. No.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Have you ever seen a shot of him in -- on

Page 3357

1 television?

2 A. No.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Were you ever shown a photo of him by any officer

4 of the Prosecution?

5 A. No.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: So if I were to bring this person here in front of

7 you today, would you be able to recognise him?

8 A. I believe so, but you must know that that happened 12 years ago.

9 I have changed and he must have changed, too.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: And you assure me that in these 12 years you have

11 never seen a picture of this person?

12 A. We have not seen anything on Naser. I have never, never seen

13 anything in relation to him personally.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you know which trial this is, who is the accused

15 in this trial?

16 A. Well, I could conclude that it is Naser, because I was in the

17 prison in Srebrenica. Otherwise, there would be no way for me to know.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: But when was it the first -- when was the first

19 time that you heard a certain Naser Oric had been charged before this

20 Tribunal -- accused before this Tribunal?

21 A. I heard that, yes.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: When did you hear about it? When did you hear

23 about the arrest and the charging of Naser Oric before this Tribunal?

24 A. I heard -- I can't remember exactly when.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: How did you come to know about it?

Page 3358

1 A. People told me.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: You did not see it on TV? You did not watch it on

3 TV?

4 A. No, I didn't, not personally.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

6 I have no further questions. That basically means that your

7 testimony comes to an end here. Mr. Zikic, on behalf of Judge

8 Brydensholt and Judge Eser, but also on behalf of the Tribunal and my own

9 behalf of course, I would like to thank you for accepted to come over and

10 give testimony in this case. It has been a long testimony; I'm sure you

11 are very tired. You will soon be free --

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: You will soon be free to go back to your country.

14 In fact Mr. Usher will escort you out of this courtroom. I assure you

15 that you will receive all the assistance you require to enable you to

16 return to your country soon. On behalf of everyone present here, I would

17 like to wish you a safe journey home.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19 [The witness withdrew]

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Now, while we are still here there is no way we can

21 conclude the rest because we have an occasion where we have to bid a

22 goodbye to a member of my team and we had arranged everything to happen

23 at 2.00. So we cannot do that. Unless you can finish all the

24 housekeeping matters in less than ten minutes and of course given that

25 everyone behind the dark glass agrees. I don't know that you can finish

Page 3359

1 everything in less than ten minutes.

2 MR. JONES: The Prosecution, really, we don't have so much by way

3 of housekeeping.

4 MR. WUBBEN: Neither do we, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: What's going to deal with that?

6 MR. WUBBEN: First we have the scheduling of the witnesses for

7 the month of January.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, the scheduling.

9 MR. WUBBEN: I'll ask the usher please to assist me. And the

10 second issue is, Your Honour, that you asked for a clarification whether

11 or not it's possible to do some estimation --

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Roughly, yes, for the time being.

13 MR. WUBBEN: Roughly for the time being. It will be that we come

14 out with an estimation of the third week of May.

15 [Trial Chamber confers]

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Anyway. Okay. Point taken, Mr. Wubben. Perhaps

17 you could in the course of the holiday, the recess, itemise it.

18 MR. WUBBEN: Yes.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: So that we can then see whether we can intervene,

20 whether it's the case of intervening or not.

21 MR. WUBBEN: And, Your Honour, I will give the floor to Mr. Di

22 Fazio --


24 MR. WUBBEN: -- in order to address two minor issues, also

25 limited in time.

Page 3360

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Di Fazio.

2 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you, if Your Honours please. Two witnesses

3 on the January list, relatives of deceased in this case and mentioned in

4 the indictment. One is the wife of Mr. Milavanovic, the other is the

5 father of Mr. Dokic. I think the -- I don't have the list.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, 24 and 26.

7 MR. DI FAZIO: You can see. I don't know to what extent the

8 Defence want to put us to proof on the issue of death of those two

9 victims -- I'm not talking about the manner of death but the

10 circumstances of death. And it seems to the Prosecution that those two

11 particular witnesses might be ripe for agreement.

12 So all I wanted to do is place on the record the Prosecution's

13 invitation to the Defence to consider those two statements and notify us

14 whether or not they might be -- they might consent to those statements

15 being tendered into evidence and obviate the need to call those two

16 people. If they were to come here they would be brief. I don't need an

17 answer, but I want the Court and the Defence know and they can let us

18 know.


20 MR. DI FAZIO: The next issue, relating to the document that was

21 produced. I had all sorts of documents I wanted to take you through; I

22 don't need to do that. I think I can simply take you to my conclusion.

23 Mr. Nikolic produced, as you remember, a crumpled piece of paper out of

24 his pocket. That was, as I understand, D114.1.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't remember.

Page 3361

1 MR. DI FAZIO: That's what it was because you asked him or Mr.

2 Jones asked you and does it have the words with Razmija and no date at

3 the bottom.


5 MR. DI FAZIO: And if you look at various documentation, that

6 fits. I didn't know about the other copy or version, shall we say, which

7 is P69. I should have known about it, but I didn't. I thought I was

8 producing the document for the first time. A document that I thought I

9 had proofed Mr. Nikolic on was in fact D114.1 or had bearing ERN number

10 02075708. So --

11 JUDGE AGIUS: This is the document you had given him?

12 MR. DI FAZIO: That's the document I had given him. The reason I

13 gave it to him is he was interested and had become emotional about it

14 during the proofing. It wasn't for proofing purposes. So what he pulled

15 out of his pocket may, as he says, been given to him by the other person

16 concerned, and you recall that some days later Ms. Vidovic cross-examined

17 about that. So you're left with that; or you hear from me that I also

18 provided him with that document. I've made inquiries with the

19 investigators. We've handled those two witnesses. They assure me that

20 no documentation or bits of evidence have ever been given to any witness,

21 including those two particular witnesses. So there we have it. That's

22 all that I can explain. I hope that goes to satisfy --

23 JUDGE AGIUS: We of course have no comments on that.

24 Yes, Mr. Jones.

25 MR. JONES: Yes, Your Honour, well, I understand from Mr. Di

Page 3362

1 Fazio's answer that that was the only document that was given to Mr.

2 Nikolic. We would still like to know when and where it was given,

3 whether it was given in the field, in Kravica, and whether he was told

4 anything when given the document. Because he seemed to think it was an

5 indictment against him.

6 MR. DI FAZIO: It was given to him in my office prior to

7 testifying, not in the field. He wasn't told it was an indictment or

8 charge. Your Honour asked that. I think, from my recollection of the

9 transcript, he himself produced it and said that in answer to a question

10 of this is the charge [sic]. But he certainly wasn't told that because

11 it's simply not so.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Jones.

13 MR. JONES: Well, from our side we don't really have any

14 housekeeping apart from one very minor thing which is we might be filing

15 a motion tomorrow. It doesn't require urgent action by the Chamber, but

16 we want to just be sure that some of your staff were still here.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Oh, yes, of course. Plus I can assure you to put

18 your mind at rest, both of you, I use electronic signatures -- I have an

19 electronic signature which I can use while I am at home for my holidays.

20 In other words, if there needs to be some urgent motion to be decided, we

21 will of course be in contact and it can be drafted and signed by me and

22 sent over electronically here. So there is never the problem of having

23 an urgent motion not being able to be decided while we are in the recess.

24 Yes, Mr. Wubben.

25 MR. WUBBEN: Yes, only out of courtesy if my learned friend can

Page 3363

1 provide us with a courtesy copy of this filing beforehand.


3 MR. JONES: It's not finalised yet.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: May we know what it is about?

5 MR. JONES: Rule 68, briefly.

6 And as for these witnesses, we'll consider the position.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Yes, obviously. And pease, you don't

8 need to inform us; you need to inform Mr. Di Fazio or Mr. Wubben for that

9 matter and then obviously we will have a revised witness scheduling.

10 MR. JONES: Thank you, Your Honour. And that's it for us. I

11 want to wish you a happy holidays.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm coming to that.

13 MS. RICHARDSON: Just one housekeeping matter. We do have

14 Prosecution's Exhibit 432 for everyone.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, I will be very brief because already we have

16 had the indulgence and the very usual cooperation of all the staff here,

17 so I will be very brief not to take your time.

18 This is the last time we are meeting then before the recess. We

19 will be reconvening on the 10th of January. This is going to be a recess

20 during which some of us will be celebrating our festivities, some of us

21 not. But in any case, it's a festive season for everyone and on behalf

22 of Judge Brydensholt and on behalf of Judge Eser, on behalf also my staff

23 I would like to wish you all the very best this festive season. May God

24 bless you and we'll meet again on the 10th of January. Thank you.

25 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.00 p.m.,

Page 3364

1 to be reconvened on Monday, the 10th day of

2 January, 2005, at 9.00 a.m.