1 Thursday, 20 January 2005

2 [Open session]

3 [The witness entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

5 [The accused entered court]

6 JUDGE AGIUS: So let's start.

7 Madam Registrar, could you call the case, please.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Case Number

9 IT-03-68-T, the Prosecutor versus Naser Oric.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you.

11 Mr. Oric, good morning to you. Can you follow the proceedings in

12 your own language?

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour,

14 distinguished gentlemen. I can follow the proceedings in my mother tongue

15 full well.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Please be seated.

17 Appearances for the Prosecution.

18 MR. WUBBEN: Good morning, Your Honours.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you, Mr. Wubben.

20 MR. WUBBEN: And good morning to the members of the Defence team.

21 My name is Jan Wubben, lead counsel for the Prosecution, together with

22 co-counsel, Mr. Gramsci Di Fazio, and our case manager, Ms. Donnica

23 Henry-Frijlink.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. And good morning to you and your team

25 as I said.

1 And appearances for Naser Oric.

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour. Good

3 morning, colleagues from the Prosecution. Appearing for Mr. Naser Oric

4 are I, Vasvija Vidovic, and Mr. John Jones. Together with us today are

5 our legal assistant, Ms. Jasmina Cosic, and our case manager, Geoff

6 Roberts.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. And good morning to you and your team.

8 I take it there are no preliminaries. That's what I have been

9 informed at least.

10 MR. JONES: Yes, no preliminaries. Just I was asked yesterday by

11 the Registry to put on the record which exhibits we objected to. So I can

12 just say that very shortly. It was Exhibit P468, P469, and P470. And we

13 had already objected to P157.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

15 MR. JONES: And if I need to read the ERN numbers in that should

16 be sufficient, I trust.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Whoever is --

18 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]

19 MR. JONES: I thank you, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

21 Madam, good morning to you.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour. Good

23 morning, everyone.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: You can remain seated, Mrs. Stojanovic.

25 We are proceeding and finishing with your testimony today. Now

1 it's the turn of Mr. Jones, who is appearing for Mr. Oric. I just want to

2 remind you of two things, namely that you are still testifying under oath,

3 under the solemn declaration that you entered yesterday, in other words.

4 And secondly that Mr. Jones is doing his duty here, and your obligation,

5 your responsibility, in terms of your oath, is to answer all his questions

6 truthfully and fully, unless we ourselves tell you not to.

7 So, Mr. Jones, you may proceed.

8 MR. JONES: Thank you.

9 WITNESS: MIRA STOJANOVIC [Resumed]

10 [Witness answered through interpreter]

11 Cross-examined by Mr. Jones:

12 Q. Good morning, Ms. Filipovic. I hope you're well rested.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: You called her Ms. Filipovic. Have I heard you

14 well? She's not Filipovic --

15 MR. JONES: In fact, I was going to ask which she prefers.

16 Sometimes it's Ms. Filipovic; sometimes it's Ms. Stojanovic.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Both are okay, but currently I am

18 Mrs. Filipovic.

19 MR. JONES: That's that then.

20 Q. Now, I'm going to start by asking you a little bit about what life

21 was like in Srebrenica when you were there. You told us yesterday that

22 you stayed in the Srebrenica area for approximately two months I think,

23 staying with Hazim's two sisters at two locations. Is that right?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Now, you weren't asked much yesterday about how you were treated

1 during those two months. Weren't you in fact treated perfectly well?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Didn't you become friends even with Mrki and his sisters?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Would you say that you retained even a certain affection for them

6 even?

7 A. Well, when I was with them I felt safe. I did not experience any

8 particular fear. I spoke to them normally.

9 Q. It was --

10 A. Being relaxed.

11 Q. Thank you. It was very hard times for the people in Srebrenica at

12 this period, wasn't it?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. There was a severe food shortage, wasn't there?

15 A. Right. They did not have enough food.

16 Q. People were having to make bread from bark and cornhusks because

17 there wasn't enough proper flour?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Were there a lot of shells falling on the town?

20 A. I don't know about Srebrenica, but in the area where I was

21 located, Solocusa, yes, there were shells falling.

22 Q. And were a lot of people getting wounded and dying from those

23 shells?

24 A. I don't know. I was not able to see. I was inside that house.

25 Q. Did you ever go to the hospital in Srebrenica?

1 A. To the hospital? I don't remember.

2 Q. Did you see people living out in the streets in the town?

3 A. On the streets I did not. But I did see the families with which I

4 stayed.

5 Q. Did you see people who didn't have a proper home to stay in and so

6 they had to camp outside? That's really what I was asking.

7 A. No.

8 Q. Did you see many refugees arriving in Srebrenica every day?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Now, apart from what you saw yourself, you must have spoken a lot

11 to Hazim and his sisters and others when you were in Srebrenica. Did they

12 describe life to you in Srebrenica as being as you just stated, namely

13 very hard?

14 A. No, no.

15 Q. You agree that these were very difficult times in Srebrenica?

16 A. I do.

17 Q. And it's right that you and your children were kept in a house

18 where it was warm, would you say, sufficiently warm?

19 A. Well, yes, yes.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment because I think from behind the glasses I

21 am noticing that there is a problem.

22 Usher, I can see that the distance between the microphones and the

23 witness is too much. And also apart from the fact that the witness has to

24 come near each time. I think we need to find a solution for that.

25 Interpreters, thank you for bringing it to my attention.

1 THE INTERPRETER: Thank you, Your Honour.

2 THE INTERPRETER: Thank you, Your Honour.

3 MR. JONES:

4 Q. Were you always given adequate food at those houses?

5 A. We always shared the same food that they had. We always took our

6 meals together.

7 Q. And were you provided adequate clothing for you and your children,

8 including for your baby?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Didn't Mrki and his sisters make sure that you stayed somewhere

11 where there was a cow so your children could have milk. Isn't that

12 correct?

13 A. Yes, that's correct.

14 Q. Now, in summary then, would you agree that Mrki and his sisters

15 treated you and your children in a way that perhaps you even had a better

16 quality of life in many ways than many of the other people in Srebrenica

17 at the time?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Now, just dealing with Mrki for a moment - that's Hazim, Mrki,

20 from Voljevica - is it right that you saw a lot of him during those two

21 months that you were in Srebrenica?

22 A. Yes, he often came by.

23 Q. So you had a lot of opportunities to see him from different angles

24 and so you're very familiar with what he looks like?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. You told us yesterday that Mrki said, and I'm quoting, that "he

2 physically resembled Naser Oric and many people confused them because they

3 were so alike."

4 Now, after the war did you see a programme on TV showing Naser

5 Oric on a white horse and you thought it was Mrki?

6 A. Right. There were a lot of similarities in their physical

7 appearance; they looked alike.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: But that's not answering the question. Let's divide

9 it into two parts. You were asked whether after the war you saw a

10 programme on TV showing Naser Oric on a white horse.

11 Did you see such programme on TV or not?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I didn't see him on horseback,

13 no.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: So there is no point putting the second question

15 because she could not have mistook one for the other.

16 MR. JONES: May I ask a clarifying question?

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, of course, certainly.

18 MR. JONES:

19 Q. Did you see Naser Oric on a TV programme at any time?

20 A. Yes, I did.

21 Q. And when you saw him on that TV programme, is it right that you

22 thought for a moment anyway that it might be Mrki?

23 A. I did not, because when I was watching the programme the

24 name "Naser Oric" was frequently mentioned.

25 Q. You told us that you knew Naser Oric from before the war. Would

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1 you agree that Mrki and Naser looked so alike that they could be described

2 as being almost identical?

3 A. I had known Naser from before the war; however, the image of him

4 had faded in my mind. However, Hazim I met later. And when I would see

5 cutouts from newspapers and photos, I found that you could mistake one for

6 the other. They looked a lot alike.

7 Q. Can you tell us what colour eyes Mrki had -- or has or had?

8 A. I can't remember, I really can't remember.

9 Q. Can you remember roughly how tall he was?

10 A. He wasn't very tall. He occasionally had a beard. That's all.

11 Q. Now, you told us that Mrki said that "many people confused them

12 because they were so alike."

13 Did Mrki tell you that happened often?

14 A. Yes, he did tell me. He said that people often confused them,

15 thinking that he was Naser Oric.

16 Q. Did you ever see that for yourself if you were ever out and about

17 with Mrki, people coming up to him and saying, Hey, Naser, something like

18 that?

19 A. No, no.

20 Q. Did you actually go out and about with Mrki much?

21 A. No, I did not.

22 Q. Now, did you get to know the personality of Mrki a little bit

23 during your stay in Srebrenica? Let me put it this way: He had a lively

24 sense of humour, Mrki, didn't he?

25 A. Yes, he did. He was always cheerful.

1 Q. Would you say that he was a bit of a joker, that he would tell

2 fanciful stories, i.e., stories that weren't true?

3 A. I don't remember the stories, but he seemed to have a cheerful

4 disposition generally.

5 Q. Did he tell you that he would sometimes go to places and tell

6 people that he was Naser Oric and they would give him food and other

7 things, and he then would say, Oh, I'm not him actually.

8 A. No, no.

9 Q. Would you agree that he sometimes used his resemblance to Naser

10 Oric to play jokes on people?

11 A. No, I didn't notice that.

12 Q. Was he a bit boastful sometimes, Mrki?

13 A. Quite possibly. He was full of laughs and was, as I said, of a

14 generally cheerful disposition.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: That's not boastful. Boastful means -- sorry,

16 Mr. Jones, if you want to explain it yourself, go ahead.

17 MR. JONES: No, no, please.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: But there's obviously something different here. So

19 go ahead yourself.

20 MR. JONES: I was actually going to ask a slightly different

21 question.

22 Q. Is it right that you would sometimes take what Mrki told you with

23 a pinch of salt and that you wouldn't necessarily believe everything he

24 told you?

25 A. I didn't understand you sufficiently well.

1 Q. Let me give you an example. Mrki told you that he sometimes acted

2 as Naser's deputy. But would it be right that in the two months that you

3 were in Srebrenica you never saw him and Naser Oric together? And so did

4 you suspect that that might have been a boast which wasn't true?

5 A. I never saw him with Naser Oric, and I never gave any thought to

6 whether it was true or not.

7 Q. Okay. Moving to a different subject. I'm going to go back to the

8 day of your capture on the 14th of December, 1992. And firstly just ask

9 you about some of the people who you saw when you were captured. And so

10 we can probably go through quite quickly if you just say yes or no whether

11 you recognised those people on the day.

12 But firstly I just need to clarify, before the war you worked as a

13 cook at the Sase mine. Correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And was that for slightly less than five years?

16 A. I was hired in 1985, worked until 1992. I stopped working at the

17 mine on the 3rd of April, 1992.

18 Q. So when you were captured you saw a number of Muslims whom you

19 knew from the mine?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. I think you told us you recognised Mirza Hasanovic who you told us

22 you were at primary school with?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Was he brought in wounded into your house on the day of the

25 attack?

1 A. Yes, he was.

2 Q. And wasn't he on that day in fact kind to you and your children

3 and tried to protect you from any problems you might have?

4 A. Yes. He tried to protect us.

5 Q. And Ramiz, whose house you stayed in in Poloznik, you knew him

6 from the mine because he was a mine layer. Is that correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Did you also recognise Mido [phoen] and his younger brother who

9 were the sons of Edo, who was a porter at the mine?

10 A. I didn't see Mido on that day. I didn't recognise among the

11 people him or his brother, but I heard about Mido while I was detained and

12 when I was in Poloznik village.

13 Q. And his father was Edo, who was a porter at the mine. Is that

14 correct?

15 A. No, no. He was a receptionist at the mine.

16 Q. Just a few more names. Did you recognise Senahid, known as Pobrin

17 [phoen] who was a supervisor at the mine?

18 A. Yes, yes. He also did a lot to protect us while we were detained

19 in that house.

20 Q. Did you recognise someone called Hari?

21 A. The name sounds familiar, but I can't recall anything at this

22 moment. It eludes we at this moment, but I am familiar of the nickname

23 Hari.

24 Q. Would it be Hari Husmenovic [phoen] who was a football player for

25 the Suba or Guba [phoen] team in Srebrenica?

1 A. That's possible, Hari, yes.

2 Q. Weren't most of the attackers you saw that day from Sase,

3 Bjelovac, Voljevica, and Zaluzje?

4 A. Yes. Those were mostly attackers from the nearby village of

5 Bjelovac.

6 Q. And weren't most of the attackers you saw in civilian clothes that

7 day?

8 A. Both civilian and uniform.

9 Q. But weren't they mostly in civilian clothes?

10 A. I don't know that. That was not what I noticed. There were

11 persons wearing both civilian clothes and uniforms.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Jones.

13 JUDGE ESER: Just for clarification. The question which has been

14 asked of the witness, when you've asked whether they have been in civilian

15 or other clothes, do you refer only to these people whom the witness knows

16 or are there other people around --

17 MR. JONES: Generally.

18 JUDGE ESER: Thank you.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Judge Eser. Thank you, Mr. Jones.

20 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, no objection at all, just a

21 matter that I suggest should be clarified. At the moment the questioning

22 concerns the identity, the persons who were seen on the actual day of the

23 attack prior to going to this other place of Poloznik. That's how I

24 understand --

25 JUDGE AGIUS: It seems so, yeah.

1 MR. DI FAZIO: We're all on the same wavelength.

2 MR. JONES: It seems to --

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

4 MR. JONES:

5 Q. Now dealing with those villages, or those places, Sase, Bjelovac,

6 Voljevica and Zaluzje, hadn't the Muslims been forced out of those places

7 that had been living there at the beginning of the war, if you know?

8 A. No, I don't know.

9 Q. That's not something which you heard about later when you were in

10 Srebrenica, that Muslims had been expelled from Voljevica, Bjelovac, your

11 own village, Zaluzje?

12 A. No, I don't remember. This is something I don't know about.

13 Q. Did you hear of a camp in Sase where a number of Muslims were

14 kept?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Do you know a Miroljub Todorovic?

17 A. No.

18 Q. You wouldn't be able to help us with whether he was commander of a

19 camp where many Muslim civilians, including more than a dozen children,

20 were killed, camp in Sase?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Moving to another area. I want to ask you about a statement that

23 was recorded as having been made by you on the 8th of October, 1994, and I

24 should pass up copies of that so everyone has it.

25 MR. JONES: For the record, the English ERN is 03090984 to

1 03090989. And the B/C/S is 00652346, 00652352.

2 Q. Ms. Filipovic, if you could look at that statement, do you

3 recognise your signature at the bottom of each page?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. I want to direct your attention first to the section where you

6 mentioned the Muslims you recognised after your capture. It's -- in

7 English it's page 3, second paragraph, halfway down to the end of the

8 paragraph. In your version, Ms. Filipovic, it's page 3, bottom of page 3,

9 three lines, where it starts [B/C/S spoken].

10 We see there, and I won't read out the whole passage, but a number

11 of names of Muslims, Mirza Hasanovic, Senahid, Miri?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Would you agree that those details are all correctly recorded of

14 the persons you saw?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. So whoever took that statement correctly recorded what you said

17 about the people you saw?

18 A. Yes. As for this part, yes.

19 MR. JONES: I'll ask for an exhibit number to be given to this

20 statement. I'm going to, obviously, come back to it.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: So I lost the sequence from yesterday, so I wouldn't

22 know the number. It's D?

23 THE REGISTRAR: D164.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: So this document is being tendered by the accused

25 and is being received and marked as document D164.

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1 MR. JONES: Thank you, Your Honour.

2 Q. If you can put that statement to one side. Do you recall making

3 another statement just a few days after your release in February 1993?

4 A. Yes. I gave a lot of statements, quite a number of statements. I

5 don't even remember to whom, but I gave quite a number of statements.

6 Q. These are ones that we have and we'll show it to you. We're going

7 to pass up copies. Again, the English ERN is 00366749 to 00366751.

8 MR. JONES: The B/C/S version, just to explain a little, is from

9 the rules of the road file. And so in the B/C/S version we have the first

10 pages to show that it's part of the rules of the road file against Naser

11 Oric. And that's RR321758. And then Ms. Filipovic's statement is

12 RR321977 to RR321978. And as I think Your Honours noted yesterday,

13 perhaps the Prosecution noted, that the English version is incorrectly

14 dated 18th February, 1992, but it's an obvious mistake because it concerns

15 the attack on Bjelovac. And the B/C/S version says 1993.

16 And we also, just as a separate exhibit, we have a document which

17 shows that this statement was submitted to the commission of experts on

18 18 May 1993, and that's being submitted, just to date the document. And

19 the introductory pages are 017954 to 017958. And then her statement is at

20 018070 to 018072. And for the English I'll use the ERN version because

21 that's easier for us all to track.

22 Q. Ms. Filipovic, if you could look at the --

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's give them a number straight away, Mr. Jones --

24 MR. JONES: Yes.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: -- so that, if necessary, I may have to state

1 something for the record as we go along, I don't know, but it may well be.

2 So if we have the number straight away.

3 The first one, the one which has ERN number 00136649 -- 648 to

4 650, this would be given Defence Exhibit 165. The next one which contains

5 eight pages, the fourth -- the first five of which are -- have ERN number

6 017954 until 958. And the last three of which bear ERN number 018070

7 until 018072 is being given -- marked as Defence Exhibit D166.

8 And finally, the exhibit -- the document which consists of three

9 pages starting with the ERN number RR321758 and then RR321977, and finally

10 RR321978 is being marked -- received and marked as Defence Exhibit D167.

11 MR. JONES: I'm obliged, Your Honour.

12 Just two matters, I presume that for D164, the English and

13 Bosnian, were both tendered.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: It's always like that. And then one will be marked

15 with an E. That's something that the registrar takes care of.

16 MR. JONES: And secondly, I'm just not sure if the --

17 JUDGE AGIUS: We don't need to bother about that, because most of

18 the time I have it in two languages, and the English version is always

19 marked.

20 MR. JONES: The other thing was just, I'm not sure if the

21 six-digit number is technically an ERN. But anyway, it's not part of the

22 eight-digit system, but it's marked with that number anyway.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.

24 MR. JONES:

25 Q. So, Ms. Filipovic, if you could look at the statement that's been

1 put in front of you. If I could ask you to turn to the last page --

2 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. For the record, the witness is being

3 asked to look at Defence Exhibit D167.

4 MR. JONES: Thank you, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: We could put it on the ELMO, but it's in B/C/S. We

6 don't have the English version of this.

7 MR. JONES: Yes, the English version is these other two documents.

8 It's identical -- D165 and D166 are identical in content.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: I wouldn't have guessed that.

10 MR. JONES: They correspond to this document, D167.

11 Q. Ms. Filipovic, looking at the last page, do you recognise your

12 signature there?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. That statement ends with the words "they released me six to seven

15 days ago."

16 Could it be that you were released round about the 11th or 12th

17 February, early February, in any event, 1993?

18 A. It certainly occurred in February, but I can't remember the

19 specific date. It was February for sure.

20 Q. I want to just briefly start again by directing your attention to

21 where you mention the people who you recognised on the day of your

22 capture. In the English version it's page 2, ERN 00366750, halfway down

23 the page. In your version it's the first page, seven lines from the

24 bottom, [B/C/S spoken]. Do you see that?

25 And in English it says: "Most of the attackers on Bjelovac came

1 from the villages of Voljevica, Zaluzje, Biljaca. I know most of them by

2 sight, not by name. Also in the group was Mido and his younger brother.

3 Their father's name is Edo. Edo was a porter in the Sase mine."

4 Now, that bit, it seems, from what you said today, is not entirely

5 accurate, but it's right, isn't it, that you knew Edo from the mine?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Would you agree that this is a statement given by you on or around

8 18th of February, 1993?

9 A. I gave quite many statements after I had left Srebrenica, quite

10 many. I may not remember this specific one, but this may as well be one

11 of these statements that I gave at the time.

12 However, I wish to clarify something, Your Honours, if I may. All

13 the statements that I gave several days after leaving Srebrenica and then

14 up to two years later, there may be certain discrepancies between the

15 statements that I gave four or five years later and the earlier ones

16 simply because at the time -- I can tell that this statement doesn't quite

17 tally with the statements that I gave several years later.

18 I was still in a state of shock in the early days after leaving,

19 and I was not even fully conscious what had happened to me over there.

20 And then years passed and I became more and more aware of what had gone on

21 and I started to remember more clearly. If any changes need be made to

22 these statements or if there are discrepancies, this is something that I

23 can always be asked to clarify, Your Honours.

24 Q. That's precisely what I'm coming to. So let's move to matters of

25 substance. Yesterday you told us how you were wounded on the 14th of

1 December, 1992 by a grenade thrown by Muslim attackers. And I think - and

2 correct me if I'm wrong - that you even sought to suggest that they knew

3 when they threw the grenade that they were throwing it at women and

4 children. And I say that because you said, and I'm quoting, it's page 14,

5 lines 4 to 20: "When we climbed upstairs, the five of us, we hid in part

6 of the loft that had been built out of wooden panels. However, they

7 already knew that there was somebody inside and they searched the house.

8 When they came in they saw children's schoolbags."

9 Now, pausing there, you weren't actually there when the people

10 came in, were you, so you don't know whether in fact they saw children's

11 schoolbags or not?

12 A. Those were no children's schoolbags. Those were bags containing

13 the clothing of my daughter and son.

14 Q. Yes. But you don't know, do you, whether the people who came into

15 your house saw any of that, do you?

16 A. I'm afraid I don't understand the question.

17 Q. Weren't you speculating about what the people saw when they

18 entered your house? You don't in fact know what they saw.

19 A. I don't know.

20 Q. And you don't know, do you, whether anyone seeing those bags would

21 know whether the children were in the house or not, do you?

22 A. No. But they knew that there was someone in the house.

23 Q. But that someone could be anyone, couldn't it? It could be a man,

24 it could be a sniper, it could be a soldier?

25 A. Yes, of course, soldiers.

1 Q. Continuing with what you said yesterday. You said: "Before they

2 came up they called out. They said, If there is anyone here, come out and

3 surrender. They searched for a long time without finding us. They warned

4 that they would throw a grenade from a hand-held rocket launcher called

5 Zolja. They warned many times but we didn't surrender. We didn't come

6 out of the hiding place. Then we left the house and we didn't hear

7 anything else for a while until a very strong explosion from a grenade

8 that fell into the loft through the roof. Both Brano and I were injured.

9 Brano was sitting behind my back and my mother-in-law was leaning on the

10 wall behind my back."

11 And then you go on to say how you were wounded. So that is, isn't

12 it, a very grim story in which, let's face it, the attackers come across

13 as pretty inhumane, throwing grenades at women and children.

14 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, I object to the question.

15 I heard the evidence yesterday, and I'm -- unfortunately I don't have all

16 of the transcript in front of me. But searching my memory, I can't

17 remember any innuendo or suggestions on the part of this witness that

18 there was a deliberate act against women and children in the house. As I

19 recall her evidence, and I also rely on the quote put by Mr. Jones

20 preceding these questions, the witness was saying that she concluded that

21 the attackers knew there were -- there was someone inside the house.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: There was someone inside the house.

23 MR. DI FAZIO: So this notion of a cruel and inhumane attack or

24 accusation -- the suggestion that this witness is trying to -- was

25 yesterday saying that there was a savage or cold-blooded attack against

1 women and children is, in my submission, not in fact what transpired

2 yesterday. And on that basis, I object.

3 MR. JONES: Your Honour, if I may, I perhaps should have continued

4 with the quotation because later it goes on: "They were furious and they

5 were cursing and swearing and suddenly one of them said, Oh, that's where

6 they are."

7 So I would put it to the witness that she was suggesting that they

8 knew that "they," women and children, were in the house. In any event, I

9 can move on.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: I think we can skip this and move on to something

11 else. I never -- at least I speak for myself. But during her testimony

12 yesterday, I never felt that she was suggesting that in her mind she knew

13 that they knew that there were only women and children up there and that

14 they were going to -- I didn't get it like that.

15 MR. JONES: That's fine. There are more substantial details.

16 Q. Let's now go back to your 1994 statement and see what you said

17 about these events when you were asked about them. And it's -- if you can

18 take that statement, the 1994 one which is -- apologies, D164. And in

19 English it's page 3, ERN 03090986, the first paragraph. And if you look,

20 Ms. Filipovic, page 3, third paragraph, second sentence, it starts off

21 [B/C/S spoken].

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Page 3 is in the B/C/S, no?

23 MR. JONES: Page 3 of English and page 3 of B/C/S. It's first

24 paragraph and it's second -- third sentence. I'll read it: "After a

25 while a large number of Muslims broke into the house."

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1 Do you have it, Ms. Filipovic? [B/C/S spoken], do you see that?

2 Page 3, third paragraph, second sentence.

3 "After a while a large number of Muslims broke into the house.

4 And having seen that there was no one on the ground floor, they took up

5 positions at the windows" --

6 A. I can't see that on the page in front of me, and this is page 3.

7 Q. [Previous translation continues]... It's the 1994 statement, D164.

8 And it should be page 3, third paragraph. And you have to go down to

9 the third sentence [B/C/S spoken]. Do you see that?

10 A. It's not here.

11 MR. JONES: I can show on my copy.

12 Q. Do you see that now, [B/C/S spoken]?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. So I'll read in English.

15 "After a while a large number of Muslims broke into the house.

16 And having seen that there was no one on the ground floor, they took up

17 positions at the windows and starting shooting from there at the village

18 defenders. After a while, three of them climbed up to the first floor in

19 the attic to see if there was anyone there. I should state that before

20 they entered the house I had found two grenades on the first floor that my

21 husband had left and I decided to throw them at the Muslims in the yard.

22 I detonated one of the grenades clumsily and tried to through it over the

23 balcony. It bounced off the parapet and exploded, wounding Branko and

24 me. I later threw the second grenade into the yard, but it did not

25 detonate. However, some of the Muslims in front of the house were wounded

1 by the first grenade."

2 And then it goes on to say in the next paragraph that the Muslims,

3 as soon as they found you, tended to you and Brano. I quote: "The three

4 Muslims who were searching the first floor and attic found us and took us

5 to the first floor. They immediately bound Branko's wounds and mine."

6 Now my question is: You sought to explain that your memory has

7 returned over time, your true memory, but isn't this a very specific,

8 detailed account of throwing a grenade, it getting -- it bouncing off the

9 parapet, exploding, a very specific recollection, which I put it to you is

10 the correct one?

11 A. No, no. This is not a faithful recollection.

12 Q. Is this what you told the person who interviewed you firstly?

13 A. What you see here is what I said to the person who was

14 interviewing me, but a number of these data are simply not correct.

15 Q. Now, let me ask you: How is it possible that you would remember

16 the true event, as you say, that Muslims threw a grenade and injured you,

17 which would in fact fit in better, I suggest, with the events of that day,

18 of being attacked, how would that true -- how would that true memory get

19 confused in your mind with a recollection of where you're throwing

20 grenades and injuring people? How on earth could that happen?

21 A. If I may be allowed to clarify, Your Honours. We were hidden in

22 the attic by that time. And as soon as they found out there was someone

23 in the house they called for us to surrender, cursing and infuriated by

24 the fact that they hadn't been able to locate us. They started yelling to

25 the effect that they would set fire to the house, that they would kill us,

1 that they would fire a Zolja. Then they left the house, and there was

2 silence for a while. Later on they launched some sort of a grenade which

3 caused a powerful explosion. Roof tiles began falling off overhead and we

4 were wounded.

5 As for the grenades, I did throw two. Several days later I saw

6 grenades on a shelf in my father-in-law's house. I remember those

7 grenades. I did throw two to try to protect my family and myself. I just

8 tried to throw them out of the window. I didn't exactly know how to use

9 hand grenades. I didn't realise that I was supposed to pull the safety

10 pin out. I just threw the whole thing out of the window without removing

11 the safety pin.

12 There was yelling and moaning outside in the yard - that was later

13 on - when we had already been captured and taken down to the ground floor.

14 After a while a young man came in whom I knew a little. His name was

15 Mijac and he was from Srebrenica. He had been wounded in the foot. He

16 came into the house, and he asked me who was in the barn that was in our

17 yard. The distance from the house was perhaps about 15 metres. I said it

18 was my husband, because I was convinced at the time that he was still in

19 the barn lying wounded. He asked me who was there, and I said, My

20 husband. And he told me, Look what he did to me but then I had to kill

21 him.

22 However, after I while, when I was back from Srebrenica, I talked

23 to my husband about this. And of course that person had not been my

24 husband. That was a neighbour, Radovan Vucetic. He was in fact in the

25 barn, and he shot and wounded this person Mijac, whereas I thought that it

1 had been my husband who had wounded him. So it was only at this point

2 later on that I found out what had really happened.

3 Q. So is it in light, if I understand correctly, in light of things

4 which your husband said to you that you've decided that it wasn't your

5 grenade which harmed you but it was the Muslims' grenade?

6 A. No, no. It's not my husband who told me that it was not our hand

7 grenade that hurt us. I know that for myself, because I know that they

8 threw them out of the window as they were without pulling out anything.

9 There was a lot of shooting at the time, and at the moment when I was

10 throwing them out I may have thought for a second that they had exploded

11 but they didn't. Brano and I were still together downstairs, and it was

12 only later when we climbed up to the loft, to the attic loft, that we were

13 wounded.

14 Q. Ms. Filipovic, I'm not going to dwell on this subject overlong,

15 but I suggest that what you've just given us is a very well-rehearsed

16 explanation of why you've changed your account and that you came to change

17 your account because people, Serbs in Bjelovac, told you it would be

18 better to blame the Muslims than to say the truth.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Is that a question?

20 MR. JONES: Yes. She can agree that that's what's happened.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. What you just suggested is

22 something that never -- no one ever told me. It must be some conclusion

23 of yours.

24 MR. JONES:

25 Q. When you --

1 A. And I alone am in a position to know what exactly transpired there

2 and I alone am giving you an account of what exactly happened. You can

3 make your own conclusions.

4 Q. Precisely. You alone know what happened. And before you went

5 back to Bjelovac and spoke to your --

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Yes. You alone know what happened. And before you spoke to other

8 people and returned to Bjelovac, you were telling people that threw the

9 grenade, it bounced off the parapet and exploded, "wounding Branko and

10 me." That is your recollection which has been influenced by discussions

11 with others. But you've replied to that, so I'll put another question and

12 then come to your 1993 statement.

13 These grenades, your husband got them from the Bjelovac TO or from

14 the VRS, didn't he?

15 A. Never have I mentioned three hand grenades. There were only two

16 hand grenades in the house.

17 Q. I said two -- I said "these," and that probably became three. Two

18 grenades. Where did your husband get them from?

19 A. I don't know even that they belonged to him.

20 Q. Surely someone else didn't leave grenades lying around in your

21 house. Did anyone else have access to your house?

22 A. Yes. My father-in-law and my brother-in-law.

23 Q. So do you think one of -- it might have been their grenades that

24 you found?

25 A. They were theirs.

1 Q. But it's quite probably that either your husband or your

2 father-in-law or your brother-in-law had grenades at this time. That's

3 not something that would have surprised you?

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, one moment, Mr. Jones, because at this point I

5 have to intervene. The way she answered your previous question, I take it

6 that she is being categoric, that these grenades belonged not to her

7 husband but to her either father-in-law or her brother-in-law.

8 MR. JONES: I should ask her how she knows that.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: But let's confirm this first.

10 Am I reading you well or not, Madam Filipovic?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The hand grenades could have

12 belonged either to my father-in-law or to my brother-in-law or to

13 Slavoljub. I didn't know to whom they belonged exactly. All I know for

14 sure is that they were in the room usually occupied by my father-in-law

15 lying on a self.

16 MR. JONES:

17 Q. My point is this: Yesterday I think you said that your

18 father-in-law and brother-in-law and perhaps your husband, too, were

19 civilians. My question is: Would it surprise you to find that they had

20 grenades in their possession, as civilians?

21 A. Normally they were civilians of Bjelovac. But they had rifles.

22 Once these were issued to them, probably by the TO of Bratunac, so that

23 they could guard the village, I suppose.

24 Q. So they were civilians who'd had rifles issued to them and who

25 possessed grenades. Would that be a correct summary?

1 A. That's true as far as the rifles are concerned. I don't know

2 about the hand grenades, where they got them from. All I know is that

3 they were in my father-in-law's room.

4 Q. Yet you say, don't you, that a Muslim in civilian clothes with a

5 rifle is a soldier, but you seem to be saying that a Serb in civilian

6 clothes with a rifle and even grenades is a civilian. Do you maintain

7 that distinction?

8 A. I'm afraid I didn't understand you.

9 Q. I want to turn -- well, I'll withdraw the question.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: I should think you should.

11 MR. JONES: It's more for observation really than a question.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: I know.

13 MR. JONES: If I could refer the witness to D165, which is the

14 statement from 1993.

15 Q. Do you agree, Ms. Filipovic, that this was the first statement

16 which you gave, given that your signature appears next to the date of

17 18th February, 1993.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: That's a mistake.

19 MR. JONES: My apologies. D167.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: D167 is the one you need to refer the witness to,

21 because, as has been pointed out, D165 is the English translation of it.

22 Thank you, registrar. Thank you.

23 MR. JONES:

24 Q. Now, first, Ms. Filipovic, you agree that this is the first

25 statement you gave about these events, given that your signature appears

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1 next to 18 February 1993 when you say you were released six or seven days

2 before, or do you recall giving a statement even before that?

3 A. Not that I remember. I gave a lot of statements. I don't

4 remember whether this statement is the first. All I know is that I gave a

5 lot of statements after released from Srebrenica.

6 Q. All right. Well, isn't it right that in this statement, which

7 would be more than a year before your 1994 statement, you told the exact

8 same story, not only that you threw a grenade, that it detonated on the

9 balcony. If you like I will refer you to page 1, and it's RR321977. In

10 the English, it's page 1, and the ERN is 00366749. Do you see the words,

11 Ms. Filipovic, starting [B/C/S spoken] down to where it says [B/C/S

12 spoken]. Do you see that?

13 It starts about a third of the way down the page.

14 MR. JONES: If it helps, I can give the usher my highlighted copy.

15 Q. In the meantime I'll just read what it says in English: "Seeing

16 the Muslims entering our yard and shooting, we locked ourselves up in the

17 attic. I heard them squabbling outside the locked door, you go in, I

18 daren't, you go, there's no one there. I diffused a bomb and threw it out

19 the window to save my family, my young children and my mother-in-law, but

20 the bomb got caught in a balcony fence and injured me slightly. I later

21 heard that the bomb had also injured a Muslim called Midhat Totanovic

22 [phoen], but at the time they were not aware that it was my bomb that had

23 hit him."

24 My question is: Isn't that not only the same account, but it's

25 the same in this very exact detail of the bomb actually getting caught in

1 the parapet, as you described in 1994, the balcony fence, and detonating,

2 and this appears to be a very specific memory.

3 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note that in the original it says

4 the bomb or the grenade grazed the fence and also in the last line, Midhat

5 Totanovic, nicknamed Mijac.

6 MR. JONES: Thank you.

7 Q. My question remains -- I'll put it slightly differently. Are you

8 saying that not only the memory of you throwing a bomb which detonated is

9 wrong, but the detail of it getting caught in the balcony, the fence, or

10 the parapet that that is something which you never saw?

11 I can simplify it even more. Did you never see the grenade which

12 you threw get caught somehow after you threw it?

13 A. No, no.

14 Q. So this detail is wrong, both in your 1993 statement and in your

15 1994 statement? In your 1994 statement there's a reference to: "I

16 detonated one of the grenades clumsily and tried to throw it over the

17 balcony. It bounced off the parapet and exploded, wounding Branko and

18 me." And in this statement: "I diffused a bomb and threw it out the

19 window to save my family, but the bomb got caught in the balcony fence and

20 injured me slightly."

21 Don't you agree that that's a very similar description of what

22 happened?

23 A. Just a moment ago I said that it took me a really long time to

24 realise the entirety of what had transpired and how it transpired. These

25 two statements that you just quoted were given by me within a very short

1 interval after I was released in Srebrenica before I actually knew what

2 exactly happened there.

3 Later, as time went on, as years went by - and maybe there are

4 details that I still haven't recollected yet - I remembered things in

5 pieces, like a jigsaw puzzle. It takes a long time to remember what

6 exactly happened in every detail. And I repeat, there may be a lot of

7 things that still elude me because the memory is very painful, one that

8 I'm trying to suppress, however it is stronger than me and it keeps coming

9 back.

10 Q. Thank you. Just two more questions on this subject. This isn't a

11 case, though, is it, of having a vague recollection early on and then

12 remembering a lot more detail later. I put it to you that these

13 statements are actually very detailed right down to the people you saw,

14 what job they did at the mine, what they said to you, and that this is

15 very specific detail about what -- precisely where the grenade went,

16 et cetera. So this isn't a case of memory coming back but of changing

17 your memory. Do you accept that? In other words, it's not more detail;

18 it's changed detail.

19 A. No, no. I do not accept that and I do not agree.

20 Q. And finally -- one more question on this point and it's really to

21 be clear that of course there's nothing wrong or to be ashamed in throwing

22 a grenade to protect your family. I want you to understand that it's not

23 a reproach to suggest that to you.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: It would be a stupidity.

25 MR. JONES:

1 Q. What I'm suggesting is that it's wrong to come before this Court

2 and to say that people injured you when they didn't do so. And I'll the

3 matter at that.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's move to something different, Mr. Jones.

5 Yes, Mr. Judge Eser has a question.

6 JUDGE ESER: Very short question. With regard to Exhibit D167,

7 the statement we were talking about, where does it come from? There's no

8 indication at all who had been the interrogator.

9 MR. JONES: If I can just see my copy.

10 JUDGE ESER: Who was interrogating?

11 MR. JONES: Yes. Well, what I can say about this statement is

12 partly what I've already said, that it's submitted by the Serb authorities

13 as part of the case against Naser Oric. The witness has accepted it's her

14 signature. As to who conducted the interview, that may be something we

15 can find out. We may not have that information present.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: On the face of the document there is nothing.

17 Unless the witness is in a position to enlighten us on this, we would

18 never know unless you find otherwise the information..

19 Do you remember this first statement that you've seen, D167, this

20 one, who was interviewing you, who you gave it to? Do you remember? Was

21 it a police? Was it a judge?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I don't remember, I'm afraid.

23 MR. JONES: Okay.

24 Q. One final question on this, not on the statement, but when the

25 Muslims found you in the attic, didn't Mirza Hasanovic say something like,

1 Mira, why didn't you say it was you?

2 A. Yes, yes. Something like that.

3 Q. In other words, wasn't he shocked to find you there and regretted,

4 in effect, finding you in such a dangerous place?

5 A. Yes, yes. I remember, he asked me how come I was still there with

6 the children, why hadn't I gone somewhere. I replied that I had arrived

7 three or four days prior and that I was intending to leave that very day.

8 MR. JONES: So he wasn't expecting to find any women and children

9 in Bjelovac --

10 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, I object to that question.

11 This witness can't testify as to what the expectations were in the mind of

12 this man.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Objection sustained.

14 MR. JONES:

15 Q. Now, you didn't live in Bjelovac from April to December 1992, did

16 you, you just paid occasional visits to the village.

17 A. No, I wasn't living there. I just came two or three times in

18 April to pick up some things for my daughter Olivera because I gave birth

19 to my second child in July.

20 Q. Would you agree that you left because it was dangerous to remain

21 in the village, because it had become part of a war zone? Would you agree

22 with that?

23 A. Yes, I agree with that. And on one occasion when I came to pick

24 up some personal belongings in April, there was a lot of shooting from the

25 woods. On that occasion I fell. I spent a month in the hospital after

1 that. There was something wrong with my baby, and there was occasional

2 shooting there all the time afterwards and I could hear it from where I

3 was living in Serbia.

4 Q. And hadn't many Serb women and children left for Serbia for the

5 very same reason?

6 A. Yes, yes. All children and younger women had left the village.

7 Only the elderly remained. On that particular day, I was the only one

8 among younger women to be in Bjelovac together with her children.

9 Q. So would it be right to say that since you weren't in Bjelovac for

10 much of 1992 you don't know whether the VRS came to or through Bjelovac

11 with tanks, artillery, or anything like that. That's not something you

12 would know about. Is that true?

13 A. No, no.

14 Q. Would it be also right to say that you don't know -- or you didn't

15 know much about the status of the TO or its relationship to the VRS or any

16 of these military matters. That's not something which you knew about at

17 the time?

18 A. No, I didn't.

19 Q. But you did tell us that - I hope I'm getting your evidence

20 right - that everyone, I presume you meant every man, in Bjelovac was

21 issued with a gun. Does that mean that hundreds of guns were distributed?

22 Can you help us with that, with the number?

23 A. No, no. I cannot even tell you for sure how many people lived in

24 Bjelovac because I don't know.

25 MR. JONES: This might be a convenient moment to break.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: So we'll have a 25-minute break.

2 How much more time do you have roughly do you guess, Mr. Jones.

3 MR. JONES: I'm making a lot of progress. I imagine an hour and a

4 half.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Another hour and a half.

6 MR. JONES: Maximum.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.

8 --- Recess taken at 10.24 a.m.

9 --- On resuming at 11.01 a.m.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: I would appreciate, Mr. Jones and Mr. Wubben, if we

11 could finish by 12.30, in other words by the next break because something

12 has come up that requires me to leave the building at 12.30 and then come

13 back again for more work.

14 In the meantime, I have got the new list -- amended witness list.

15 Have you had it -- have you received it?

16 MR. JONES: Yes, we just received it.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

18 MR. JONES: Yes. For my part, I think I can undertake to be

19 finished within an hour.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. That's perfect.

21 Let's continue. The accused is here, right. Everyone is here.

22 MR. JONES:

23 Q. Now, Ms. Filipovic, before the break I was asking you what you

24 knew of military matters, and I think you were agreeing that you didn't

25 know a great deal at the time. Had you heard bombs dropping before the

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1 14th of December, 1992?

2 A. No.

3 Q. So when you told us yesterday how you were inside a house and you

4 were asked to estimate where the bombs were falling from the sound of

5 their impact, that's the first time you had ever done that or the first

6 time you'd experienced bombs falling in the vicinity, wasn't it?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. So you can't confidently assert, can you, that the bombs which

9 you heard falling were not falling on the town of Bjelovac and were

10 definitely falling on the woods or anything of that nature, can you?

11 A. There was a powerful explosion in the woods away from Bjelovac.

12 Bombs were falling there. That's where you could hear explosions. They

13 weren't falling in the area in which we were staying.

14 Q. Let's pin that down. You heard some explosions in the woods. Can

15 you say for sure that there weren't any explosions in the town of

16 Bjelovac? Not just where you were but generally in the area of the

17 village.

18 A. Not in the part of the village in which we were staying, but

19 further off, yes, you could hear explosions.

20 Q. Had you seen a Zolja being fired before the 14th of December,

21 1992?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Now, you asked you before the break whether most of the people -

24 by that I mean the attackers - were in civilian clothes. I want to just

25 provide a reference for that now, and it's your 1994 statement,

1 ERN 03090985. It's the fifth paragraph of that page.

2 MR. JONES: We don't need to turn to it.

3 Q. But I suggest that you said: "Most of them, the attackers, were

4 in," that's in square brackets, "were in civilian clothing."

5 Now --

6 A. Both civilian clothing and camouflage uniforms. Now, as to

7 whether more persons were wearing camouflage uniforms than civilian

8 clothes, I really can't specify.

9 Q. Do you agree that your recollection of these events might have

10 been better in 1994 than they were -- than they are now?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Your memory is better now than in 1994?

13 A. Yes, that much is certain.

14 Q. By that, I mean memory of what happened on the day. You're saying

15 you have a clearer memory today, 2005, than you did in 1994.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Now, you mentioned that some of the people you saw wore ribbons.

18 In a previous statement you said that they were wearing ribbons of all

19 colours on their biceps. Do you agree that the ribbons were of all

20 different colours?

21 A. I can't remember specifically whether they were of all different

22 colours, but they were predominantly red, worn around the biceps or as

23 some sort of a headband. Mostly they were red, though.

24 Q. So there were some which were of other colours?

25 A. I can't remember. I do remember that most were red.

1 Q. Now, leaving aside able-bodied men, weren't there many Muslim

2 women, children, and old men who came into your village on the 14th of

3 December, 1992?

4 A. There were no children on that day, no young women. Mostly

5 elderly persons and women, but they were in Bjelovac throughout, never

6 leaving the village.

7 Q. Just to clarify. I'm referring to Muslim women and children.

8 Didn't they come into your village on that day?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Weren't they -- weren't the Muslim children present even when you

11 were captured in your house who actually saw you being captured?

12 A. No.

13 Q. You've told us --

14 A. No. Neither women nor children.

15 Q. You've told us how I think a few days later you saw people with

16 bags coming from your village stuffed with goods. Didn't you also see

17 that on the 14th of December, 1992, civilians with bags taking food?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Did you ever hear the expression either at the time or later in

20 Srebrenica "tobari" [phoen]?

21 A. No, I don't remember.

22 Q. By that I'm referring to civilians who would go into villages with

23 bags, Serb villages, to take food and possibly other items. Did you hear

24 of that phenomenon?

25 A. No, I didn't. But several days later, on our way to Srebrenica,

1 in the village of Bjelovac itself, I came across a number of women,

2 children, persons, that was on that specific day on our way through

3 Bjelovac; they were carrying bags, sacks, bundles in their hands. That

4 was all I could see on that day; that's not in Srebrenica.

5 Q. Okay. You described how I think on the day of your capture and on

6 subsequent days you saw Serb people who were dead in civilian clothes.

7 And in answer to questions you stated that they didn't have rifles or

8 other weapons on them. My question is: Are you aware from your time

9 spent in Srebrenica that weapons were very scarce at the time?

10 A. I'm afraid I don't understand the question.

11 Q. Okay. I can rephrase it. Were you aware that on the Muslim side

12 there was such a shortage of weapons that front line soldiers wouldn't be

13 given a weapon when they went to fight, that they would have to get it off

14 a dead enemy, Serb soldier?

15 A. No, no. I don't know about that.

16 Q. My suggestion --

17 JUDGE AGIUS: I would -- I would have asked you how the Serb

18 soldier would get killed in the first place if the Muslims are without

19 weapons.

20 MR. JONES: By another soldier and then -- Your Honour, there will

21 be evidence, certainly, that one in four, or something of that nature, had

22 a weapon and the others had to find weapons where they could.

23 Q. So my suggestion, and I will put it as a suggestion, is that it

24 would be very unusual in those times to see a corpse with a rifle or

25 indeed with any weapon because very quickly someone would come along and

1 take that weapon for themselves. Do you understand that suggestion and do

2 you accept it?

3 A. As for the bodies that I saw, I didn't pay any attention nor did

4 it occur to me at any point in time to look whether there was a weapon

5 lying nearby or not. It was quite enough for me to see the bodies. I

6 would turn my head away that very instant. And on top of that, I did not

7 really have time to study and inspect whether there was something lying

8 next to those bodies. It only took a very short while for us to drive by.

9 Q. It was just that in answer to questions yesterday you did not

10 assert repeatedly that you saw no weapons by those bodies, and that's why

11 I ask. I want to refer to D45.

12 MR. JONES: And if the witness could be shown a copy. I won't

13 dwell for long on this subject, because it is no doubt a painful one.

14 Q. But you mentioned seeing the bodies of your brother-in-law and

15 father-in-law, and I just ask you to look at this list. It's list of

16 killed fighters, military post Bratunac. If you look at number 117, which

17 in English is on page 5, we see the name Dragan Filipovic, and the birth

18 date is 13/2/1962. Would you agree that's your brother-in-law, that

19 refers to your brother-in-law?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. You see two names down, Dragoljub Filipovic, born on the 25th of

22 January, 1942. Do you agree that that's your father-in-law?

23 A. Yes. Although I'm not certain about the date of birth. But

24 Filipovic, Dragoljub is the name.

25 Q. This is your father -- your father-in-law's father, Milisav

1 Djenalic [phoen]?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And if we move further down, I think it's page 18 in the English,

4 number 626, you see the name Milenko Mudzetic [phoen]. Is that the person

5 you described as seeing on the 14th of December, 1992, outside your house

6 and injured? Would he have been about 17 years old at the time? Number

7 626?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And then finally at 229, which is page 8 in English, we see a name

10 which in B/C/S it's Radenka Jovanovic, I think in the English it was

11 mistranslated as Radenko. Daughter of Milosav. Does that refer to Duda

12 who you referred to as a young girl that was pointed out to you by your

13 mother-in-law but you didn't look at the corpse?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. So was she actually 18 years old or more on the 14th of December,

16 1992, as opposed to being a young girl, as you described her?

17 A. She was no longer a girl; she was a young woman.

18 Q. Thank you. I apologise for having to deal with these painful

19 issues, and we'll move on.

20 Now, going back to just when you were in your house, you described

21 how men were shooting from the house while you were there with your

22 children.

23 MR. JONES: Perhaps the witness needs a break possibly.

24 Q. Are you all right to continue, Ms. Filipovic?

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you wish to have a break?

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. I think we can continue.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: If you need a break, we will give you a break.

3 Could you pour her some water, please, usher.

4 If you need to have a break, Madam, we'll have a short break.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. No, Your Honours, I'm fine.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's continue.

7 MR. JONES:

8 Q. You described how men were shooting from your house. I just want

9 to ask whether you would have felt safer at that moment out in the street

10 with your children with you or whether you felt safer in the house at a

11 moment?

12 A. In the house.

13 Q. And at that time I think you described fierce fighting. Weren't

14 Serbs also shooting back at the house where you were at that time? In

15 other words -- I'll put the question again.

16 When you were in your house, the Muslim fighters were at the

17 window shooting at people, Serbs. They were being shot back at, weren't

18 they, at that time, if you could judge it?

19 A. Yes, certainly. There was so much shooting all around.

20 Q. Did you see whether the Serbs who were shooting back were also

21 shooting Zoljas?

22 A. No. I was not able to see anything, being inside the house as I

23 was.

24 Q. Isn't it right that during that time even with all the shooting

25 going on, the Muslims still took time to tend your wounds and your

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1 children's wounds?

2 A. Yes, that is true. They didn't dress our wounds because they

3 didn't have any bandages. But they allowed us to wipe the blood off

4 because the wounds were bleeding.

5 Q. Now, you mentioned these people shooting Zoljas. Were the gases

6 being discharged into this room while these weapons were being fired?

7 A. I don't remember. The Zoljas were not being fired while we were

8 still inside my house. They were firing those later when we were staying

9 inside Stevo Filipovic's house. But I don't remember any gases coming in

10 or being discharged.

11 Q. I just wanted to clarify that because probably from what you saw

12 you would be familiar with the fact that Zoljas discharge gases and that

13 therefore a large number of them can't be fired in a confined space. I

14 don't know if you would agree with that.

15 A. I'm not familiar with that.

16 Q. Now, you seemed to be saying yesterday that if a Serb plane had

17 been circling overhead in the morning of the 14th of December, 1992, and

18 dropping bombs that you would have heard that despite the din of all the

19 shooting. Is that correct? Was that your evidence?

20 A. No, that's not correct, nor did I ever say that. Even so, it's

21 just not correct.

22 Q. Is it right that in fact a plane could have been circling in the

23 morning and that you didn't hear it because of all the noise in the house?

24 A. It's possible, but I don't remember.

25 Q. I would like to show you some segments of the video which were

1 shown yesterday. It's Defence Exhibit D111.

2 MR. JONES: And so we need to switch, for the booth's benefit, to

3 the Defence mode.

4 Q. Ms. Filipovic, I'm just going to show you a bit of the video which

5 you were shown yesterday.

6 MR. JONES: I propose to play from the beginning, to pause, and

7 then we'll play a bit more.

8 [Videotape played]

9 MR. JONES:

10 Q. Now, Ms. Filipovic, I hope you can hear the voices while we play

11 this video. For the record, I'm going to read the transcript into

12 evidence. I can probably leave out the obscenity.

13 "Did you see how the planes hit? Did you see how well they aim?"

14 Now, I wonder whether you'd agree that when those people said that

15 they weren't referring to how well the Serb planes aimed at the forest and

16 how well they dropped their bombs in the woods --

17 MR. DI FAZIO: I object to that question, if Your Honours please.

18 It's obviously asking this witness to tell you what's in the mind of the

19 person who said those words. Who knows what that person is referring to.

20 Who knows if he is --

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, you are perfectly right, Mr. Di Fazio.

22 Objection sustained. And Mr. Jones agrees.

23 MR. JONES: Yes, I agree.

24 Q. Now, we see the clock on the video says 9.35. Obviously I won't

25 ask you to verify that time. But I'm going to ask you as we play the

1 video to tell us whether you think it could be the morning and whether you

2 hear the sound of cocks crowing, among other things.

3 MR. JONES: So we'll play four minutes of the video now.

4 [Videotape played]

5 MR. JONES: We'll pause it there.

6 Q. Now, some questions, Ms. Filipovic. Do you agree that these

7 pictures were taken from across the Drina looking over to Bjelovac?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Would you agree that these are Serbs discussing the attack, based

10 on, one, where they're located, the Ekavian dialect, if you can hear that?

11 A. Yes, yes.

12 Q. Now I'm going to read the transcript, just the last bit into

13 evidence. There's an older male voice saying: "Wait, the house was not

14 on fire a short while ago."

15 Younger mail voice: "A plane bombarded it. The plane just

16 dropped a dozen of shells."

17 Older voice: "And did it hit a truck as well?"

18 Younger male voice: "Yes, it did. They are now on the houses."

19 Perhaps it was not all interpreted.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: If it was not all interpreted in its entirety, then

21 repeat it.

22 MR. JONES:

23 Q. Older male voice: "Wait, the house was not on fire a short while

24 ago."

25 Younger male voice: "A plane bombarded it. The plane just

1 dropped a dozen of shells."

2 Older voice: "And did it hit a truck as well?"

3 Younger male voice: "Yes, it did, they are now on the houses."

4 Now, my question is, Ms. Filipovic, if you can help us: Do you

5 still say that there's no possibility that Serb planes caused any damage

6 to buildings in Bjelovac?

7 A. As I told you before, in that locality where I was, there was no

8 plane activity, although I could see on this video footage that the plane

9 was there in the area of Bjelovac where houses were on fire. That's what

10 I saw on this film.

11 Q. Just to be clear, though --

12 A. That means that it is further up.

13 Q. During this time you were inside a house, weren't you?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. People were shooting from the windows of the house, weren't they?

16 A. Right, yes.

17 Q. So you weren't going up to the windows and looking out, were you?

18 A. No. At that moment I no longer went to the window to look after I

19 was detained.

20 Q. I'm just going to play a tiny extra segment. I'm going to

21 fast-forward to 0835 and then just play 30 seconds more.

22 [Videotape played]

23 MR. JONES:

24 Q. I don't know if you can see on the monitor, Ms. Filipovic, but do

25 you agree that we see there a bomb that the plane has just dropped; it's a

1 speck in the middle of the screen. If not, don't worry. We'll play on to

2 9.20.

3 [Videotape played]

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can see that.

5 MR. JONES:

6 Q. Would you also agree that we can see the impact of that bomb

7 dropping and jolting the camera and then see smoke rising from the damage

8 caused by the bomb dropped by the plane?

9 JUDGE AGIUS: I think you are drawing too many conclusions,

10 Mr. Jones.

11 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes --

12 JUDGE AGIUS: I mean, I would not agree with any one of them.

13 MR. JONES: But you see a bomb dropped, you see the camera jumps

14 all over the place.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, but that's the cameraman. The smoke that I

16 see, I don't know, I would be very surprised if all that smoke came out as

17 a result of that explosion in the same second that the explosion takes

18 place.

19 MR. JONES: Certainly. I trust Your Honours will keep an open

20 mind as to what caused the damage.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: There's certainly a bomb falling, you know, a bomb

22 falling.

23 MR. JONES: So we're finished with that exhibit.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: And incidentally now this is 3.20 in the afternoon.

25 MR. JONES: Yes. Your Honour, I don't wish to rehearse the

1 evidence again of the plane in the air in the morning. I trust the point

2 is taken that there was a plane dropping bombs --

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Definitely. Point taken.

4 MR. JONES:

5 Q. Now, you also told us yesterday that a person said to another

6 person to burn down your house. And I want to be very clear about these

7 two people. The person who said that your house should be burnt down,

8 what was he wearing?

9 A. A camouflage uniform.

10 Q. What else was he wearing? Can you give us more of a description

11 than that? Any other features?

12 A. No. No, I don't remember.

13 Q. And it's right, isn't it, that you don't know whether this order,

14 as you've described it, to burn down your house was actually executed by

15 the person who was said to, do you?

16 A. As we were leaving the house, as we were coming out of the house,

17 one of the soldiers from the group said, Burn down the house. I did not

18 turn around to see and I didn't dare to look back to see if the man was

19 going at the same time to set the house on fire. But I heard definitely

20 the words being said, Burn down the house.

21 Q. So it's right, isn't it, that it could have been an empty menace

22 which was never carried out?

23 A. I didn't get your drift.

24 Q. I withdraw that question.

25 I want to move to the subject of when you were in Poloznik and you

1 said that you heard people coming in all day with messages. Now, these

2 people were very agitated, weren't they?

3 A. Yes, yes.

4 Q. I think you told us that you heard some of the messages. Were

5 they or weren't they of the following nature: First that there was a

6 massive counter-attack coming back from the Serbs and that they were

7 having to withdraw. Do you remember hearing messages of that nature?

8 A. No, no.

9 Q. Well, you said they were agitated or you agreed that were

10 agitated. Weren't they agitated because they knew they had to get out of

11 that area?

12 A. Now I see what you mean. I hadn't understood you very well

13 before. When we moved to the house of Stevo Filipovic, I finally started

14 hearing the sound of planes and they were afraid. They were moving around

15 the house from one room to another. They were looking through the

16 windows. Some were saying, in fact shouting, Go on, fire at him. And

17 they were really in a state of panic.

18 Q. I was actually referring to later, though, in Poloznik when you

19 said that people were coming with messages. And I was asking you whether

20 you gathered from those messages that they were in difficulty and that

21 they had to pull out.

22 A. No, no. I was not aware of the content of the those messages and

23 I didn't know what was going on.

24 Q. Okay. You said that there was a radio in Ramiz's house. Wasn't

25 it a small, improvised, battery-operated gadget, nothing very impressive.

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1 Would you agree with that?

2 A. I can explain the way I remember it, what it looked like. It was

3 perhaps more than 50 centimetres high, not very wide, 40 centimetres, not

4 more. It was plugged into a battery, a car battery. It had a headset

5 plugged into it and there were a lot of wires and cables around it.

6 That's what I remember. I also remember it was green.

7 Q. It was attached to a car battery -- yes.

8 A. Right.

9 Q. Now, you mention meeting Zulfo in Ramiz's house, and you said that

10 you knew him because he used to come to your father's house. Now, can you

11 tell us roughly when he came to your father's house? How many years

12 before the war, let's take it that way.

13 A. Sometime in the '80s.

14 Q. Could you be a bit more specific. Are we talking about 1981,

15 1985, 1989? How old were you when you saw Zulfo?

16 A. In 1992.

17 Q. And before that, when you saw Zulfo at your father's house, how

18 old were you roughly?

19 A. I was a young girl. I think I was going to primary school.

20 Q. You say you recognised him from that period of, what, 14, 15 years

21 beforehand?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Now, dealing with the period before you arrived in Srebrenica

24 from, say, the 14th to about the 19th of December 1992, wasn't there

25 massive fighting in that whole area, by which I mean the broader Bjelovac

1 area, from Voljevica, Zaluzje, Pirici, Sase, fighting in that whole area?

2 A. I did not understand you very well.

3 Q. Perhaps I can approach it by looking at D45 again, because I'm

4 coming to that in any event. If we look firstly at number 11 we see that

5 a Sretan Djokanovic died in Kostanovici on the 17th of December, 1992.

6 Now, Kostanovici is on the road to Sase, isn't it?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Would you agree that is in the broad Bjelovac area. It's in your

9 local area that you're familiar with?

10 A. I am familiar with that area, but that's the area of Sase.

11 Q. Okay. If you look at 253 on that list, you see Zeljko Knezovic

12 who died on the 16th of December, 1992, in Kunjarac. Now, is that in your

13 area?

14 A. Bjelovac is separate. Kunjarac is on the other side of the hill

15 from Bjelovac. And this man or young man or boy that you mentioned is a

16 person I absolutely don't know. Knezovic, I don't know him at all.

17 Q. Just to ask you this, really. How far would you estimate Kunjarac

18 is from Bjelovac?

19 A. Up to three kilometres away, not more.

20 Q. Now, just a couple more names. Number 295, Stanoje Maric who died

21 in Voljevica on the 22nd of December, 1992. Voljevica is the next village

22 up from Bjelovac, isn't it, towards Bratunac?

23 A. Yes. This person I don't know either.

24 Q. And then finally 342, we see Stojan Milic died in Sase on the 15th

25 of December, 1992. Sase is but a few kilometres --

1 A. That's not the same.

2 Q. Sorry, not the same what?

3 A. What I meant is I don't know this person either.

4 Q. That's fine. It was really to make this point, and I'm going back

5 to the question I asked you, is aren't you aware, or are you aware that

6 between the 14th of the December and let's say for the next week or so,

7 there was intensive combat between Serbs and Muslims in this whole area,

8 Sase, Bjelovac, Voljevica, Kunjarac. Would you agree?

9 A. At that time I didn't know that. I wasn't aware.

10 Q. Did you find that out later?

11 A. No. I didn't try to find out. I didn't make inquiries, and I

12 didn't even learn accidentally from anybody else that fighting was going

13 on.

14 MR. JONES: I would like to show a short segment of D97, just a

15 minute and a half of that video.

16 [Videotape played]

17 MR. JONES: If we freeze there firstly.

18 Q. Ms. Filipovic, you're from the Bjelovac area, you're from Azlica

19 originally, and I gather it appears that you know many people from the

20 Sase mine. So I want you to tell us first if you recognise this area.

21 A. No, no.

22 Q. You don't recognise that as being Voljevica?

23 A. No, no.

24 Q. And tell us, either for the last segment or the next segment,

25 whether you recognise any of the people.

1 MR. JONES: And so we'll play a bit more.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. No, I didn't see.

3 MR. JONES:

4 Q. Just looking firstly at that soldier in the picture, do you agree

5 that he's wearing a "kokada" [phoen] on his cap?

6 A. It's unclear. I can't ...

7 MR. JONES: We'll just play a short segment of the video.

8 [Videotape played]

9 MR. JONES:

10 Q. So just freezing there. It says there that's Commander Borivoje

11 Tesic being interviewed. Do you recognise him?

12 A. No, no.

13 Q. Do you agree that the soldiers we've seen are Serbs?

14 A. I don't know. I don't know that they are Serbs or Muslims.

15 Q. We hear there or we see a mention of connecting forces in

16 Bjelovac/Kunjarac. From the messages you heard when you were in Poloznik,

17 did you hear Muslims saying how Serb forces were attacking from Voljevica

18 to Bjelovac in order to recapture Bjelovac?

19 A. No, no. No. I didn't hear the content of the messages.

20 MR. JONES: Okay. We're finished with that exhibit.

21 Just a few more questions. I'll probably be ten minutes, if

22 that's all right.

23 Q. You told us yesterday how in order to get to Srebrenica on the

24 18th December, 1992, you were driven through Bjelovac in a yellow

25 Mercedes. Is that correct?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And that Mercedes, as far as you were concerned, was that Mis's

3 car or as far as you knew?

4 A. It wasn't his car in the first place. He himself said that he had

5 taken the car from Bjelovac.

6 Q. But from then on -- I withdraw that question.

7 Did Mrki sometimes use that Mercedes as well?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Do you know that he never used it, or you don't know whether he

10 used it or not?

11 A. On the way to Srebrenica, Mis was driving the car. When we were

12 in Srebrenica and when we went to Solocusa, it was again Mis, mouse, who

13 drove that car.

14 Q. Now, on that drive I think you told us you had time to see your

15 house and even in some detail, because you told us that you could see that

16 even the woodwork was destroyed?

17 A. Yes, yes. I paid attention specially to see that house.

18 Q. So the car was driving on at quite a slow pace then, I take it?

19 A. It was not particularly fast or particularly slow, medium speed.

20 But I still tried to look closely as we were passing by.

21 Q. And this is the road which is along the Drina facing Serbia, and

22 you say you were on that road on the 18th of December, 1992, without any

23 problems?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. But I'm going to put a suggestion to you which is that that's

1 completely untrue, that that road was never controlled by the Muslims

2 during the whole war, that it was intensively shelled from Serbia for days

3 after the Bjelovac attack, and that any yellow car driving leisurely along

4 would have a sitting duck for Serb shelling, Serb artillery. That's my

5 suggestion. So I'd ask if you maintain that you did take that road?

6 A. Yes, yes.

7 MR. JONES: With the usher's assistance, I would like to put a map

8 on the ELMO.

9 Q. In the meantime, Ms. Filipovic, can you tell us whether you went

10 by car even from Poloznik to Bjelovac. Was that part of your trip by car?

11 A. We travelled all the time in that same car to Srebrenica.

12 Q. It is my suggestion, and again I'm -- it is a suggestion, that the

13 car could not even pass from Poloznik to Bjelovac because that road was

14 blocked. You said it did pass from Poloznik to Bjelovac.

15 A. As we were travelling there were no barriers, no checkpoints, on

16 the road.

17 Q. My suggestion to you is that the route you --

18 THE INTERPRETER: Roadblocks; interpreter's correction.

19 MR. JONES:

20 Q. My suggestion is the route you in fact took to get to Srebrenica

21 was we went on a macadam, or dirt road from Poloznik to Predola, to

22 Dimnici, Stozerska and then to Srebrenica, and that that was a road which

23 the Muslims took to get to Srebrenica during the war. You say you didn't

24 take that route? Sorry --

25 A. No.

1 Q. I'll repeat the villages because I think it wasn't interpreted:

2 Poloznik to Predola, to Dimnici, to Stozerska, and then to Srebrenica.

3 Isn't that the route you in fact took?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Would you agree that the following places were in Serb hands, were

6 being fought over on the 18th of December, 1992, or thereabouts: Sase,

7 Neskovici, Lasovac and Kostanovici?

8 A. No, that's not correct. No.

9 Q. Kostanovici, let's just take that one. Do you say that that was

10 taken by Muslim forces in December 1992?

11 A. I don't know. But when we were travelling to Srebrenica,

12 Bjelovac, Zaluzje -- sorry, Bjelovac, Biljaca, Prisoje, Kostanici, Sase we

13 passed by without any problem, not encountering a single roadblock. We

14 passed smoothly all the way to Srebrenica.

15 Q. And neither Mis or Mrki nor anyone in the car expressed concern

16 that they would be ambushed on that road, on the Sase road?

17 A. No, no.

18 Q. I put it to you, Ms. Filipovic, that in fact you've told us you

19 went via Bjelovac purely so you can claim to have had a view of your house

20 and that you didn't take that route. I understand you'll deny that and

21 I'll move to another area.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: I think you better move to another area.

23 MR. JONES: I'm just waiting for the interpretation.

24 Q. Ms. Filipovic, you referred to yesterday seeing a column of

25 people.

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1 A. That is correct.

2 Q. Referring to a column of people and it was suggested to you, I

3 think, that these were all soldiers. So I want to be clear. I think the

4 number that was mentioned was 2.000. You're not saying, are you, that you

5 saw 2.000 men all in uniform, every one of them with a rifle or some

6 weapon?

7 A. Yes, that's true. But I -- that was when I was in Poloznik in

8 Ramo's [as interpreted] house where we were staying.

9 Q. Didn't you see a column of civilians, men, women, and children,

10 fleeing from Bjelovac and going towards Srebrenica?

11 A. No.

12 Q. You do know, though, don't you, from your time in Srebrenica that

13 a lot of food was captured by civilians in Bjelovac, which kept a lot of

14 hungry people fed for a while during that winter?

15 A. I'm clear about that, although this is not something that I

16 actually saw. It is only natural they should be expected to go after

17 food.

18 Q. Finally, let's just clarify a couple of matters with regard to

19 Srebrenica and your stay there. Isn't Solocusa where you stayed more like

20 four kilometres from Srebrenica than one or two kilometres or whatever was

21 suggested?

22 A. Well, it's difficult to say exactly, but it's quite near and it's

23 at the entrance to Srebrenica.

24 Q. How long would it take you to walk from Solocusa to Srebrenica?

25 A. It would take between 20 and 30 minutes.

1 Q. I don't know if it's just me, but I'm not getting very good sound.

2 Maybe it's just me. Anyway, I've only got a few more questions.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: I have no problems with my sound at least.

4 MR. JONES:

5 Q. Now, you were asked yesterday about being interrogated in you were

6 Srebrenica. The people who asked you questions, they weren't unpleasant,

7 though, were they? They just asked you questions?

8 A. Yes, they did ask us questions. But they were also quite angry,

9 and threats were made simply because we were unable to answer the

10 questions which they were asking us.

11 Q. I'm looking at a prior statement of yours. I just have to check

12 which one it was. But haven't you said in the past that the behaviour of

13 the people asking you questions was quite correct? I'm looking at the

14 1994 statement, ERN 03090987: "Their behaviour during the questioning was

15 correct."

16 Do you agree that their behaviour was correct?

17 A. At the Srebrenica SUP, the former SUP, yes, that was the case.

18 However, when we gave a statement at Hamed's, he was angry. And I

19 remember him saying, Of course you know, of course you know what's going

20 on, and sooner or later you'll have to tell.

21 Q. Finally just a few questions on the documents which you were asked

22 about yesterday, and it really is about four questions.

23 You were shown some documents yesterday, starting with

24 Exhibit P470, and it's 02075729 dated 28th February 1993. Isn't it right

25 that you weren't interviewed or asked questions at the end of February

1 1993, were you?

2 A. I'm sorry. I didn't understand. Can you please repeat this.

3 Q. Yes. When you were asked questions, as you've just described,

4 that wasn't at the end of February 1993, was it?

5 A. I'm not sure -- interviewed by who? Asked questions by who? And

6 when exactly do you mean?

7 Q. The Muslims in Srebrenica, when they asked you questions, when was

8 that.

9 A. That was the first and second day following our arrival in

10 Srebrenica, on the first and second day.

11 Q. So December 1992?

12 A. Yes. When we arrived in Srebrenica, we were taken straight to the

13 building adjacent to the town hall and that was where we were questioned.

14 The very next day we were brought back, questioned there, and also in the

15 former SUP building of Srebrenica.

16 Q. And now -- I don't know if this is necessarily something you can

17 help us with, but if we look at that document it has the number 12/1993.

18 And if we look at Exhibit P469, the number is 16/1993, but it's dated the

19 3rd of February, 1993 -- yes, sorry, P469 and P470.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: These are the ones we saw yesterday.

21 MR. JONES: In fact, Your Honour, the point really is that one

22 comes earlier in time than the other one.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I don't think you need to hammer that because

24 we pointed that out ourselves, actually.

25 MR. JONES: Yes. And also to take matters shortly --

1 JUDGE AGIUS: There can also be a very simple explanation to it.

2 MR. JONES: Yes, Your Honour, we make the points we make about the

3 documents, and obviously we trust they're taken.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

5 MR. JONES: Looking at P470 as well, 02075729, that's dated 28th

6 of February, 1993, and I'll just ask you if you agree that that's

7 recommending an exchange and proposing to expedite it when in fact you and

8 your children have been released before that date. Do you accept that?

9 A. I don't remember exactly the date of the exchange in February, but

10 I can tell you for sure that it was February.

11 Q. All right. You noted that one document had the wrong information

12 about your daughter's birthday and who their father is. As far as you

13 recollect, did you give the correct information to whoever was

14 interviewing you?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. As far as the --

17 A. I don't remember that, I don't remember.

18 Q. Finally, a final question, turning to your exchange, isn't it

19 right that a large number of Serbs -- Serbs were exchanged alive for dead

20 Muslims?

21 A. On that day, 20 Serbs who were alive were exchanged -- and one

22 dead body were exchanged for dead bodies of Muslims. No one remained

23 alive.

24 Q. Thank you.

25 MR. JONES: No further questions.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Jones.

2 Is there re-examination?

3 MR. DI FAZIO: One issue.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

5 MR. DI FAZIO: It will take -- very, very briefly.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Take your time. There's no problem at this point in

7 time.

8 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. I'll finish briefly.

9 Re-examined by Mr. Di Fazio:

10 Q. I just want to ask you about one topic. You were asked questions

11 by Mr. Jones regarding the attackers on the 14th of December, 1992, and

12 where they came from, and you identified a number of people who came from

13 Sase, Voljevica, and Zaluzje. And you've told us already -- we've already

14 heard your evidence about how on the 14th you were in your house and then

15 Stevo Filipovic's house and then in the evening taken off to Poloznik,

16 okay?

17 Now my question is this - and you may be able to answer it very,

18 very simply - can you -- do you know, and if you don't know, say so, but

19 do you know if there were other Muslim attackers in other houses apart

20 from those in your house with you and apart from the ones who were in

21 Stevo Filipovic's house with you?

22 A. I didn't know at the time. The only thing I knew was about our

23 house because I was there, and later when we crossed to Stevo Filipovic's

24 house.

25 Q. So the position is you simply can't tell this Trial Chamber if

1 there were many other Muslim attackers in other houses or whether there

2 were no other Muslim attackers in other houses?

3 A. I was not able to see whether there were any in the other houses

4 because I was in my house throughout.

5 Q. Thank you very much.

6 MR. DI FAZIO: I have no further questions.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Judge Eser has got some questions for you, Madam.

8 Questioned by the Court:

9 JUDGE ESER: Madam Stojanovic, with regard to the house, your

10 house, which was -- which you found burned, now you told us when this

11 soldier or this person said, Let's burn down the house, that you did not

12 look back so you did not realise whether it was really burnt at that

13 moment. That's correct?

14 A. Yes, that's correct.

15 JUDGE ESER: Now, from your own house you moved to Stevo

16 Filipovic's house. Now -- and while you have been in Stevo Filipovic's

17 house, did you have a chance to look to your own house?

18 A. No. Because there was no direct view on my house from Stevo's

19 house. Not a single window faced that way. And there were houses between

20 Stevo Filipovic's house and my house.

21 JUDGE ESER: Thank you.

22 Before I put my next question to you I would like -- have to ask

23 the Defence, when you told the witness that it was untrue that she could

24 have come from Bjelovac to Srebrenica, you told the Court that this road

25 was never controlled by Muslims. Now, is this only a contention or has

1 this brought into evidence that it was never controlled by Muslims?

2 MR. JONES: It's a suggestion which we -- yes, which we obviously

3 intend to address during our Defence case, that that road was not used by

4 Muslims. They would take another route to get to Srebrenica because of

5 the dangers I alluded to.

6 JUDGE ESER: But at this moment --

7 MR. JONES: It's a suggestion.

8 JUDGE ESER: Okay. Now, my question to the witness.

9 On which way would you normally go from Bjelovac to Srebrenica, in

10 normal times? Which road would you take?

11 A. I would go via Bratunac and then on to Srebrenica, under those

12 circumstances. That was a sealed road, an asphalt road, with buses and

13 cars taking that road to Srebrenica. The road between Bjelovac and

14 Poloznik is a dirt track, a macadam track, and it is not particularly fit

15 for traffic. For example, miners who lived in Poloznik and in Pirici,

16 many of them worked at the mine, and in order to get to Loznica/Rijeka, or

17 rather Bjelovac, they would drive in a van and then take a bus from

18 Bjelovac to the mine itself, which means that not even the bus could go.

19 We had our own miners' bus, but it couldn't go to those villages to pick

20 those miners up simply because there was not road that was fit for bus

21 traffic.

22 JUDGE ESER: [Previous translation continues]... during this trip

23 that you took from Poloznik to Srebrenica, this road you described to us,

24 was it already known to you or did you go it for the first time that

25 night?

1 A. To a certain extent, yes, my husband was from Loznica; he had been

2 born there. This is a road that goes to Poloznik and I would take part of

3 that road, one section of that road, on my way to Loznica. It is the same

4 road.

5 JUDGE ESER: Now, the last question. When you have been taken

6 from your -- from Stevo Filipovic's house to go to this other place, what

7 have you been told? Have you been told the reason why you were taken from

8 this place to somewhere else or have you been just ordered that you should

9 go with these people to the other place?

10 A. We simply went along. I don't remember that a specific order was

11 issued, but they went and we came with them. We left Bjelovac.

12 JUDGE ESER: Now, my question was: Had you been given a reason

13 why you should leave your -- Bjelovac and you said you should go to

14 another place. Have you been given a reason for leaving the -- Stevo

15 Filipovic's house and to follow these people to another place?

16 A. No, no. They didn't say anything. We just left and headed for

17 Poloznik.

18 JUDGE ESER: Thank you.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Judge Eser.

20 I do not have questions for you, Madam, which basically means that

21 your testimony comes to an end here. On behalf of Judge Brydensholt and

22 Judge Eser and on my own behalf and also on behalf of the Tribunal, I

23 should like to thank you for having come over to give testimony in this

24 case. You will now be escorted out of the courtroom by Madam Usher and

25 you will be attended to by the rest of the staff of the Tribunal, who will

1 assist you in -- to make it possible to return back home at the earliest

2 opportunity. On behalf of everyone present here, I wish to -- wish you a

3 safe journey back home. Thank you.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

5 [The witness withdrew]

6 JUDGE AGIUS: So I take it that we will resume on Monday.

7 Tomorrow is a UN holiday, Eid Al-Adha. And we will resume on Monday with

8 the testimony of witness number 25.

9 MR. DI FAZIO: That's fine. Your Honours, there was an issue

10 raised by Mr. Siller regarding certain documents and exhibits. I

11 respectfully suggest that we deal with this at a later point next week.

12 There's nothing urgent as far as I can see. And I just need to get my --

13 need to understand more precisely what is going on before I can do that.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you. Have a nice weekend. Thank you.

15 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 12.17 p.m.,

16 to be reconvened on Monday, the 24th day of

17 January, 2005, at 9.00 a.m.

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