1 Monday, 24 January 2005
2 --- Upon commencing at 9.08 a.m.
3 [The accused entered court]
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Registrar, good morning to you. Could you
5 call the case, please.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Case number
7 IT-03-68-T, the Prosecutor versus Naser Oric.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
9 Mr. Oric, good morning to you. Can you follow the proceedings in
10 a language that you can understand?
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours,
12 distinguished gentlemen. Yes, I can.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. You may sit down.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Appearances for the Prosecution.
16 MR. WUBBEN: Good morning, Your Honours. My name is Jan Wubben,
17 lead counsel for the Prosecution. Good morning also to the Defence team.
18 I'm here together with co-counsel Ms. Joanne Richardson, and our case
19 manager Ms. Djurdja Mirkovic.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, and good morning to you and your team.
21 Ms. Mirkovic, welcome back. We haven't seen you for some time.
22 Appearances for the Defence.
23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. I'm
24 Vasvija Vidovic, together with Mr. John Jones, appearing on behalf of
25 Mr. Naser Oric. Joining us are our legal assistant, Ms. Jasmina Cosic, as
1 well as our case manager, Mr. Geoff Roberts.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: And I thank you, Madam Vidovic, and good morning to
3 you and your team.
4 Before we start with the new witness, are there any preliminaries?
5 Yes, Mr. Wubben.
6 MR. WUBBEN: No, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Jones?
8 MR. JONES: Yes, Your Honour, just three brief preliminaries.
9 The first is that we'll file our reply on the issue of
10 authentication tomorrow. I hope that will be deemed in time.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Perfect, Mr. Jones.
12 MR. JONES: Thank you. The second is that we received from the
13 Prosecution late last night, yesterday evening, a list of exhibits to be
14 used with this witness.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: You have the same problem that we have.
16 MR. JONES: The thing is I don't want to jump the gun because the
17 Prosecution might not necessarily intend to be using all of these exhibits
18 with this witness, but I do note that there are about 30 exhibits. Most
19 of them have got nothing to do with this witness. And to anticipate -- I
20 see my learned friend is on her feet, but perhaps I can finish making my
21 submission first.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: No, finish. Go ahead, Mr. Jones.
23 MR. JONES: Yes. The point is to anticipate if what the
24 Prosecution intends to do is elicit evidence from this witness that he was
25 in prison with such and such a person that perhaps they were from this
1 village, that they had this wife, and then to present the document and
2 say, "Is this what is contained in this document," then in my submission
3 that would be a large waste of time because the Prosecution can elicit
4 that evidence and then subsequently can make the argument that the
5 evidence in the -- that the information in the document is correct. And
6 indeed, I adopted that approach with Ms. Filipovic, you may recall, when
7 looking at the Sokolac collection. I started embarking on points about
8 the documents with her, and they aren't documents for her. In my
9 submission many of these issues are not going to be issues which this
10 witness can help us with at all. He's not the author of the document, he
11 can't authenticate the document, the documents are not about him. It's
12 really firstly, just to anticipate that, and anticipate our submission
13 that would be a fruitless exercise.
14 And then the third issue is simply just to say with this witness,
15 we would appreciate full -- wish the Prosecution would not lead when it
16 comes to the actual detention, with circumstances of detention, and
17 particularly not suggest names to the witness. Really, I think it's only
18 fair with this witness that he provide any names, and that no names be
19 suggested to him.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
21 Yes, Ms. Richardson.
22 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, with respect to the first submission
23 by Mr. Jones, proofing continued -- started on Saturday, ended on Sunday,
24 and as such we were not able to determine, until we had spoken with the
25 witness, exactly what exhibits we would have introduced -- we would seek
1 to introduce with him.
2 Secondly, I submit with respect to the documents at hand, that the
3 Prosecution be permitted to put any and all relevant information that we
4 deem relevant to the witness. And certainly if these documents are deemed
5 irrelevant at the time, I'm sure the Bench can make a decision about that.
6 In fact, we should at least wait until these documents are presented to
7 the witness. He can comment on them, as need be. And I submit to
8 Your Honour that the documents are, in fact, relevant. They do go to what
9 he observed personally during his detention. And as such, Your Honours.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: We'll see. We'll come to that when we come to that
11 when we need to use these documents but experience teaches that sometimes
12 of them become useful, some of them are rendered redundant. Anyway, we'll
13 pursue that.
14 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: And the last one, I think you know what the rules
16 are. The position that will be taken is that if, at any time, in matters
17 relight to the detention of this person, the Defence feels that the
18 Prosecution is leading, you raise an objection and it will be decided
19 accordingly. If you don't raise objections, the Chamber will adopt the
20 system practised that it has adopted so far. We'll will look the other
21 way, in other words, because that's the position.
22 MR. JONES: Yes. And in relation to that, and again not to
23 anticipate points about the documents, but if the witness were presented
24 documents before he deals with certain issues, we would see that as a form
25 of leading because he's having information suggested to him. Again, it's
1 a matter which we'll see in due course.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: We'll come to that then.
3 And, if possible, the last thing I wanted to say is this: That
4 our secretaries, our respective secretaries, got the list this morning
5 with the result that -- you know, I mean it's not practical at all. We
6 got the list. We don't know what these documents are. We end up with
7 binders and folders and whatever. It's not exactly what we would
8 prefer --
9 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I understand. And again, I just
10 want to reiterate, the witness, we were unable to send this list out until
11 we had spoken with the witness. But with respect to the timing of those
12 documents and when they will be used, I anticipate using those documents
13 at the very end of the direct examination. So I suspect that quite
14 possibly I may not get to them tomorrow, if I go over today.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: And how much time do you anticipate you will need
16 for this witness?
17 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I anticipate that -- well, this
18 witness has a lot of information to present to this Court, a lot of
19 evidence, and I anticipate finishing tomorrow morning, probably an hour
20 into the morning session, at the most.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: And Mr. Jones?
22 MR. JONES: I think probably around three hours, then, in that
23 case, if the Prosecution will be four and a half hours with this witness.
24 I was thinking more like two, two and a half hours. But in light of what
25 Ms. Richardson said, it seems that quite a lot will come to light.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: It also depends on what he says, on what he
3 Let's start. Any further matters you would like to discuss?
4 None? Let's see the witness.
5 You can lead in the initial period, Ms. Richardson.
6 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour.
7 [The witness entered court]
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you, Mr. Ivanovic.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: I will be speaking in English, and you should be
11 receiving interpretation of what I am saying in your own language. I want
12 to make sure, first and foremost, before I proceed, that what I am saying
13 in English is being interpreted in your own language, and that you are
14 receiving it.
15 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Welcome once more. Welcome to this Tribunal.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning again.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: You are going to give evidence, a case that has been
19 ongoing against Naser Oric. Our Rules require that before you start
20 testifying, you make a solemn declaration equivalent to an oath, in a
21 sense that in the course of your testimony, you will be speaking the
22 truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. The text of this
23 solemn declaration is contained in a piece of paper that Madam Usher is
24 going to hand to you now. Please take that document in your hand, read
25 out the text aloud, and that will be your solemn undertaking with this
1 Tribunal that you will be testifying the truth. Go ahead.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
3 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
4 WITNESS: Ilija Ivanovic
5 [Witness answered through interpreter]
6 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. Please take a seat.
7 Have you ever given evidence in a court?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, not here, or in my own country.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: So I need to explain to you very briefly what is
10 going to happen.
11 You have been summoned here by the Prosecution, but the moment you
12 sit where you're sitting now, you become a witness of this Tribunal. The
13 procedure that will be followed is the Prosecution will go first. They
14 will spend about three to four hours firing questions at you which you
15 will need to answer to the best of your ability. And if you can, if you
16 are in a position to answer those questions, then you need to answer those
17 questions truthfully and as fully as possible.
18 When Ms. Richardson is finished with her series of questions, then
19 Mr. Jones, who is one of the lawyers representing Mr. Oric, will begin his
20 cross-examination, which will consist of about another three hours of
21 questions which you also need to answer to the best of your ability. And
22 if you are in a position to answer those questions, then obviously you
23 need to answer them as truthfully and as fully as when you answered the
24 questions of the Prosecution. In other words, you do not have the right
25 to distinguish between the Prosecution and the Defence. You don't belong
1 either to the Prosecution or to the Defence, you belong to the Tribunal.
2 And your responsibility in terms of the oath that you have just taken is
3 to answer all the questions truthfully and fully.
4 Have I made myself clear?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Clear enough, thanks.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, thank you. If at any time, Mr. Ivanovic, you
7 need a break, you feel tired -- I know that you'll be testifying about
8 events that are not easy to testify about. If at any time you feel
9 uncomfortable, you feel tired, you need a break, please attract -- do draw
10 my attention, and I'm sure that we will be able to, and we'll be able to
11 help you.
12 Incidentally, I am presiding over this trial. My name is
13 Carmel Agius, and I come from Malta. To my right I have Judge Hans
14 Hendrik Brydensholt from Denmark, and to my left Judge Albin Eser from
15 Germany. So, welcome.
16 Ms. Richardson, you can start with her direct.
17 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour.
18 Examined by Ms. Richardson:
19 Q. Good morning. Please state your name for the record.
20 A. Good morning to you.
21 Q. Please state your name for the record.
22 A. Ilija Ivanovic.
23 Q. And please confirm the following information with a verbal yes:
24 You were born the 1st of February, 1961; you are married; you are a Serb;
25 and you received training as a plumber and currently work as a plumber
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. You were born in the village of Cosici, which is in Srebrenica
4 municipality, and this is approximately 7 kilometres from Skelani; is that
6 A. Yes, that's correct.
7 Q. You presently live in Bajina Basta, which is just across the
8 bridge from the Drina River, from Skelani. And you resided in Bajina
9 Basta in 1992, but you frequently returned to the village where your
10 parents lived. Is this correct?
11 A. Yes, it's correct.
12 Q. And in 1992 -- well, I should first ask: The village of Cosici is
13 a Serb village, and it's approximately 13 houses, and the main source of
14 income is agriculture.
15 A. That's correct. Everything you've just stated is correct.
16 Q. Now, in 1992, you were in the village of Cosici, and you were part
17 of a village guard.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. The village guard had uniforms and some weapons; is this correct?
20 A. That's correct.
21 Q. Could you briefly state how many men were in the village guard,
22 and what types of weapons you used.
23 A. We were about 25 in the village, 25 men who stood guard around the
24 village. The village was under threat by the Muslim forces, so we had to
25 watch over our homes. It was as simple as that, really. We had different
1 kinds of weapons. Some had hunting rifles; some had PAP rifles; some had
2 automatic rifles. That was about all that we had. Later on we were given
3 a mortar that was also positioned inside the village.
4 Q. And did there come a time that you also, the village guard also
5 placed land mines in and around the village?
6 A. Yes. We laid mines at the point where the nearest village to us,
7 Bozici, had been set alight. We were already quite frightened, so we laid
8 mines along a road where we believed the enemy might come from.
9 Q. And did you receive -- did the village guard receive training from
10 the Serb military or the Serb army?
11 A. No. No, nothing like that. Never.
12 Q. I would like to bring your attention next to January 16th of 1993.
13 Do you recall that day?
14 A. Yes, I recall it only too well.
15 Q. Could you tell us what happened on that day? Did there come a
16 time -- I'll rephrase that question. Could you tell us what happened at
17 what time you woke up that day?
18 A. On that day, if you bear in mind that there were about 25 men
19 guarding the village, half of those were standing guard and half were
20 asleep, they were resting. At that point in time, I happened to be in my
21 mother's house. I was asleep. Suddenly, at a quarter to six, you could
22 hear mine explosions. One of my relatives said, "I'm going to get up now.
23 I can hear sounds of some sort of a weapon firing." We started out;
24 however, shooting began. At that moment, one of my relatives said, "We
25 are under attack."
1 Q. And who were you under attack -- who were -- who did you believe
2 was attacking the village, and could you see where the attack was coming
4 A. The attack came from all sides. We were entirely surrounded, the
5 village was, I mean.
6 Q. And what, if anything, did you do at that point?
7 A. At that point we deployed ourselves in order to be able to defend
9 Q. And did you, in fact, defend the village?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Could you tell us, could you see the actual people that were
12 attacking you?
13 A. Yes. At first -- well, first of all, I must say this was going on
14 at the crack of dawn. The Muslim forces were attacking us and penetrating
15 into the village, and they were burning houses as they were going along.
16 The greatest damage was inflicted on us by snipers from across the river,
17 from the neighbouring village. At one point in time I saw a long column
18 of Muslims, men, women and children, moving from Colakovici, in our
19 direction. Livestock, too, horses probably that they were using for
20 looting and for taking away whatever they looted in a particular village.
21 Q. And which village did you see these Muslim individuals taking --
22 looting? Could you tell which village this was actually occurring in?
23 Was this your village or another village?
24 A. Specifically in relation to my village, that's all I can tell you,
25 what I saw. But I heard from other people that more or less the same
1 thing was being done in all the other villages that were first looted and
2 then burned down.
3 Q. Did there come a time when you were able to visibly see who the
4 snipers were or who was doing the shooting?
5 A. No. My village is in a cold place, and we were locked in ice.
6 They were sniping at us from across the river, and their view of us was
7 perfectly clear.
8 Q. You mentioned it was in a cold place. Could you tell us what the
9 weather conditions were that day? Was there snow on the ground?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. In the area of my village and Gradina, which is where I was
12 captured, there was snow on the ground, and the rest was further to the
13 east, across the river and towards the village of Bozici.
14 Q. And as the village guards attempted to defend the village, what
15 did the civilian villagers do at that point?
16 A. The moment we noticed that this was an attack, we asked all the
17 civilians to withdraw towards Maltasi, across Skelani and on towards
18 Bajina Basta. That was at about 6.00 a.m., because the attack first began
19 at a quarter to six. Once we tried to get the civilians evacuated, once
20 we got the civilians evacuated, we remained and tried to put up some
21 resistance, believing that we could preserve the village; however, we
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Richardson, Judge Eser would like to put a
25 JUDGE ESER: I would have a question to the Prosecution. Could
1 you provide us with a map so that it would be easier for us to follow the
2 location of the different places, and from there, just as that happened.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Judge Eser.
4 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, Your Honour, indeed I can. I do have a
5 copy -- I do have a map. However, we were not able to make copies --
6 because I hadn't decided whether or not I would use it. But I can put it
7 on the ELMO.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Put it on the ELMO, at least, so that the public can
9 follow better and we can follow better, too.
10 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you.
11 Q. Mr. Ivanovic, could you take a look at the map that's on the ELMO.
12 And if you look at that map closely, could you point to where your village
13 is located on the map. And if it's not on the map, please just, with a
14 pen, draw where your village would have been -- would have been located on
15 that map.
16 A. [Indicates].
17 JUDGE AGIUS: The witness seems to be pointing somewhere. Perhaps
18 we could ...
19 MS. RICHARDSON: Could you tell us --
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Could we zoom --
21 A. I can't find the village of Cosici marked here.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: I wouldn't be surprised. We're talking of a small
23 hamlet of 13 houses, I would be very surprised to find it on a map, unless
24 it is one of those really military survey maps.
25 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, Your Honour. Maybe we can do this.
1 Q. Could you, Mr. Ivanovic, could you circle Bajina Basta on that
2 map, or Skelani, if you can. And from there, possibly point to where your
3 village would have been located on that map, approximately.
4 A. [Indicates].
5 Q. Is that where your village would have been located on this map?
6 JUDGE AGIUS: That would be Cosici?
7 MS. RICHARDSON: Cosici.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Cosici, yes. So --
9 A. I do know that it is located between Bozici and Kolari or
10 Arapovici. But I can't really, perhaps, draw it up precisely.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Don't worry about it. The important thing is that
12 we have an idea.
13 Could I ask you to put your initials next to that small circle
14 that you put, please.
15 THE WITNESS: [Marks].
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Is Cosici on a hill or in a valley?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A valley, next to the river.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay, thank you.
19 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you.
20 Q. Now, Mr. Ivanovic, where were -- I asked you before, but I'm not
21 sure you answered. Where were the civilians during the attack? Were they
22 trying to flee the village?
23 A. The civilians were in their homes, and following this attack,
24 starting at a quarter to six when we realised that there was an attack
25 going on, they went out of their houses and we told them to go towards
1 Maltasi and then on towards Bajina Basta, because we thought this was the
2 only passable route to Bajina Basta.
3 Q. Was anyone killed during the attack, anyone from your village?
4 A. Yes. Out of the 25 of us, 12 were killed. Twelve of the men and
5 a woman who was taken out of the village and probably killed somewhere.
6 Q. Now, you mentioned that there were snipers. Could you tell us
7 where the snipers were located? Could you tell the direction they were
8 shooting from?
9 A. From the direction of Bozici, from across the river, from the
10 direction of Bozici, probably from some barns and other shelters. We were
11 unable to spot them.
12 Q. Did there come a point that you were -- yourself and the other
13 village guards were unable to continue defending the village from attack?
14 A. Yes. We came under attack from all directions, from weapons of
15 different calibre, but this was all to no avail. We were soon surrounded.
16 And at one point, when we noticed that we were unable to defend the
17 village, we decided to pull out. There were people who were killed by
18 snipers. And in this attempt to withdraw, there was an uncle of mine who
19 was shot by a sniper. I tried to grab him with my hand. He just yelled,
20 "Let go." So the moment I tried to grab him, luckily for me, it was at
21 this particular point that another shot was fired from a sniper, and as I
22 leant forward to grab my uncle, the shot missed me. He, however, died a
23 minute later. He was shot in the neck.
24 Q. Now, before we move on to what happened after your uncle was
25 killed, you mentioned that you could see Muslim men and women looting.
1 Could you tell us if these individuals were in civilian clothing, or were
2 they wearing any kind of uniform that you could see as well?
3 MR. JONES: He mentioned children as well, and that should be --
4 MS. RICHARDSON: And children.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, thank you, Mr. Jones.
6 A. Yes.
7 MS. RICHARDSON:
8 Q. Were they wearing civilian clothing or --
9 A. There was this enormous column stretching out for perhaps a
10 kilometre from the direction of Colakovici. And I've told you that these
11 were mostly looters who would barge into villages, loot, and then torch
12 everything. They were wearing different clothes, depending on what their
13 circumstances were. And it was difficult for me to take all this in, to
14 pay attention to this. But I know that they did wear different types of
15 clothes. As they were moving from Colakovici towards Cosici, you could
16 hear this enormous noise, the banging and the singing and the yelling,
17 probably aimed at intimidating us who were defending our village and
19 Q. And were any of these people that you observed looting, including
20 the children, was anyone in uniform? Could you tell from where you were?
21 A. The only thing that I could notice was that they were wearing
22 their army's uniforms, those multicoloured ones. And they had bands on
23 their arms and on their heads, red and blue ones. I noticed the red and
24 blue bands later on as well when I was captured. But at the time in
25 Cosici, I noticed the red bands only.
1 Q. And you mentioned that the houses were being burned. Could you
2 tell who was actually burning the houses from where you were at that
4 A. Of course I could see that, because it was the soldiers who barged
5 into the village who set everything ablaze. It was the Muslims. And I
6 could not really think of anyone else who would be there at that point.
7 Q. After your uncle was killed, what did you do?
8 A. It was not my uncle, actually, it was my cousin, my uncle's son.
9 Q. All right. And his name?
10 A. Zeljko.
11 Q. And after --
12 A. Zeljko Ivanovic.
13 Q. And after he was killed, what happened next?
14 A. At that point the shooting continued. Many of the men were
15 killed, and we continued with the evacuation. I continued withdrawing in
16 the direction of the village of Maltasi. At one point when I was crawling
17 along the ice, one of my relatives, Mile, who had managed to pull out
18 earlier on, knowing that his son had been killed, he was returning to the
19 village. I told him, "Where do you think you're going? Almost everybody
20 has been killed." So we continued crawling in the direction of Maltasi,
21 pulling out, and it was just by happenstance that I managed to get out of
22 the village alive.
23 Q. Now, if you could look at the map on the ELMO, it may be helpful
24 to the Trial Chamber. Could you point to the direction you were crawling
25 in from your village? Where were you going? If you're unable to find it,
1 that's fine, we can continue.
2 A. I can't locate Maltasi on this map, and that would help me get my
3 bearings here.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: If you look at Skelani, if you look -- do you see
5 Bajina Basta? Bajina Basta?
6 THE WITNESS: [Indicates].
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, exactly. Now, at 10.00, there is Skelani.
8 THE WITNESS: [Indicates].
9 JUDGE AGIUS: And at 11.00, there is Malta.
10 THE WITNESS: [Indicates]. I have found Maltasi, yes.
11 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour. We do have copies of the
12 map, if we can have the usher's assistance in handing them out at this
14 JUDGE AGIUS: It would be a big surprise if I didn't manage to
15 find my own place.
16 MS. RICHARDSON: And at this stage I believe we would need a
17 Prosecution's exhibit number for this map.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Shall we give it a number? This would be P?
19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, it would be P472.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: P472.
21 Yes, please go ahead.
22 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour.
23 Q. At this time were you with anyone, as you were trying to crawl out
24 of your village?
25 A. Yes. I was with Mile Ivanovic.
1 Q. And did anything happen as you -- were you armed? Did you have a
3 A. Yes, I did have a weapon. And my relative, Mijo, did as well.
4 Q. Did you have any other type of -- did you have a grenade with you
5 as well?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And after you were crawling, you were crawling along for some
9 A. Yes. I was crawling for a kilometre and a half, perhaps.
10 Q. And during that point in time, were you able to see anyone,
11 namely, any of the attackers, or see anyone else in that area?
12 A. Yes. As I was pulling out, above the village of Pavkovici, in the
13 direction of Maltaska Gradina, I could see them crossing over from the
14 village of Pavkovici to Cosici.
15 Q. Now, when you say "them," who are you referring to?
16 A. I was referring to the Muslim army.
17 Q. And how were they dressed? Could you tell what -- were they
18 wearing uniforms, so it's clear to the Trial Chamber?
19 A. As far as I could discern, some of them were in uniforms and --
20 that is, they all had different types of uniforms. Some were in
21 camouflage uniforms; some were in other types of uniforms.
22 Q. And did there come a point in time where you were no longer
23 crawling and you came to a stop?
24 A. Yes. I stopped crawling as I came across a brook, and from there
25 I started pulling out towards what we call Maltaska Gradina. I turned
1 around and saw that everything was ablaze, I mean the village that I was
3 Q. And what happened after that?
4 A. After that, when I reached Maltaska Gradina, unaware that this
5 place had also come under attack, I knew that in this particular village
6 there were also people standing guard, just as we had in the village of
7 Cosici. As I crossed this top of the hill, there was a valley that I hid
8 in. Later on I was trying to find somebody from Maltasi, to draw their
9 attention to me so that they wouldn't shoot at me. However, as I stood
10 up, while I was in this valley, there was this brook running across the
11 valley and across from there I saw a large group of Muslims, women as
12 well, armed. They were dressed in different clothes. The girls,
13 depending on what they had, some would have a camouflage coat, perhaps,
14 and then a pair of jeans and boots and so on.
15 Q. When you say "girls," approximately what ages were these girls?
16 A. They were all very young. I never saw an elderly person among
17 them in the army. The elderly ones were looters; they would take away
18 whatever they could carry.
19 Q. When you said -- let me just clarify this point again. When you
20 say "girls," you're not referring to children, are you referring to young
21 women or in their early twenties or late teens?
22 MR. JONES: I don't see why --
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Jones.
24 MR. JONES: -- when she says "girls" he should be referring to
25 children. That's a strange -- yes, well Ms. Richardson has just said,
1 "When you say 'girls' you're not referring to children. Well, I don't see
2 where that comes from. Why should he not be referring to children when he
3 says "girls." Perhaps she -- she should just ask the ages.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Richardson, I think Mr. Jones is -- I mean,
5 I don't -- I don't refer to you as a girl. I mean I refer to you as a
7 MS. RICHARDSON: Well, Your Honour, that's what I'm trying to get
8 out of the witness, the exact ages so that we're clear it's not children.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Go straight to the point.
10 MS. RICHARDSON:
11 Q. What were the approximate ages of girls you described in uniforms
12 or partial uniforms?
13 A. They were from 17 to 20 years of age. Perhaps some of them were
14 younger. I can't really say. But if I meant to say that they were
15 children, I would have said that. And when I say a girl, I mean a young
16 woman, then you could probably deduce what sort of age they were.
17 Q. And were they also carrying weapons?
18 A. Yes, they were. All of them had weapons of much better quality
19 than we did. All of them were automatic weapons. Let me explain to you.
20 When my cousin was killed, he was wearing a semi-automatic rifle, and as
21 they killed him, they just left the rifle standing there, they refused to
22 take it with them. Then you can imagine what sort of weaponry they
24 Q. And were you able to see anything else from that point, or did
25 anything happen after you were able to get a vision of these
2 A. It was only after I was captured by them that I could see some
3 more. I was taken to this meadow where there were several captured women
4 and a boy, a child.
5 Q. All right. Before we get to your capture, could you tell us about
6 how -- tell us about the circumstances surrounding your capture. How was
7 it that you were captured after you were crawling along and you came to a
9 A. As my cousin and I were pulling out, we were talking about how we
10 should make sure not to fall into their hands, that it was better for us
11 to be killed than be captured by them. In this small valley where we
12 were, my cousin laid down prone, having a grenade beneath his stomach, and
13 I lay on my back. But my relative, he knew that his son had been killed,
14 so he was just there, resigned. And without telling me anything, the
15 grenade was activated and threw him all over to this bank of this brook.
16 And I was, myself, wounded by this grenade; I had wounds in my face and
17 hands. At that point we heard, "Surrender, Chetniks. We can see you."
18 This panic ensued. I barely managed to get out of this pool of water. As
19 I managed to reach this hillock, they kicked me in my face. Some of them
20 hit me with their rifle butt. They were swearing at me. And then there
21 was this sudden silence.
22 Q. Okay.
23 MS. RICHARDSON: Now, Your Honour, I just need to make a note for
24 the record that evidently the witness testified, line 7 -- 22, 7, it
25 appears he said -- I'm sorry, 22, 4, it appears he said "in a small
1 valley." Thank you. "In a small valley where my cousin laid down, having
2 a grenade --" I'm sorry, "it was better" -- I'll start over. Line 22, 3.
3 "He said that it was better for us to be killed," at least that's what the
4 transcript reflects, and I'm just informed that he said, "it was better
5 for us to commit suicide." So I just want to make that note for the
6 record, or to ask the witness again to just repeat what was their intent
7 with respect to the grenade. I think there's a difference.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ivanovic, have you just heard what
9 Ms. Richardson has just said? And if you have, do you agree with her that
10 that is the case, in other words, that your relative suggested that it was
11 better to commit suicide rather than be captured alive?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Both of us said so, and we had
13 these grenades ready there to kill ourselves. But as it turned out, he
14 probably accidentally activated the grenade, killing himself, wounding me,
15 and resulting in my capture.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. You may proceed, Ms. Richardson, please.
17 MS. RICHARDSON:
18 Q. When you said you were wounded, could you tell us what kind of
19 injuries you received as a result of that grenade explosion?
20 A. I was wounded in my face and hands, and it all turned numb. I was
21 unable to get out of this stitch I was in. And as I managed to pull
22 myself out, they started kicking me, swearing at me. At one point there
23 was this sudden silence, and one of them shouted, "Should we kill him?"
24 Others said, "No, let's not kill him, because what will the boss say," or
25 what will someone else say. It was two or three times that they said,
1 "What will Naser say," and then what will someone else say. And this is
2 something I heard repeatedly during -- while I was actually captured.
3 Q. Did you know at that time who the boss, or who Naser, they were
4 referring to?
5 A. No, I didn't know.
6 Q. Now, the people who captured you, how many soldiers, or I guess I
7 should ask, were they dressed in uniforms?
8 A. Yes. I've already said they had different kinds of uniforms.
9 Some wore camouflage, but some wore civilian clothes. They had all kinds
10 of clothes on.
11 Q. And how many of them were there at that point when you were
13 A. At first, before my cousin was killed, when I looked out of the
14 valley, believing that I would spot someone in Maltasi and try to get in
15 touch, I looked at the road, at the crossroads to Maltasi and further down
16 to Dvizovici. There was a large group of people. I couldn't exactly
17 count them, but I reckon there were at least 150 people there, including
18 young women specifically.
19 Q. And at that time were you able to -- and they were all -- they all
20 had weapons? Were you also able to see whether or not they had radios?
21 A. Yes, they had radios. Once I was captured, at one point they
22 said, "What's the time? We must tell the boss what time exactly this man
23 was captured," which was at 1445 hours exactly.
24 Q. And could you tell whether or not -- could you see if they were
25 using those radios?
1 A. Yes, of course.
2 Q. Do you know what kind of radio it was that they -- that you
3 observed them carrying? Could you describe it to us, if you don't know
4 the exact type of radio?
5 A. I couldn't give you the type or the brand. They had radio
6 communication with antennae, that sort of thing. They carried something
7 else on their backs, possibly, but I couldn't -- I was not able to turn
8 around and look at exactly what they had and what they used.
9 Q. Just one other question with respect to the uniforms. Could you
10 tell -- could you tell us if they were wearing anything on their heads?
11 A. I noticed, in the place where I was captured, two or three
12 different distinguishing features that they had. They had some sort of
13 headband, they had armbands. Two, three different kinds of insignia were
14 used. The ribbons were red and blue, light blue. Later on, I realised,
15 based on this, that they probably came together from a number of different
16 directions where they had been attacking different villages.
17 Q. Were they wearing -- and again, with respect to my question about
18 whether or not they were wearing anything on their head, were they wearing
19 a beret or caps or anything that you noticed?
20 A. Yes. They wore green berets with lilies on them. But not all of
21 them. I must be honest about this, not all of them. There were some
22 young men who were wearing this sort of cap and some who were not. Red,
23 that sort of thing. See my point?
24 Q. Yes. Now, I'd like to take you back to -- at the point where you
25 were taken out of the depression or you were captured, could you tell us
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 what happened to you after you were removed from this depression, and
2 could you tell us how it was that you actually came out of the depression
3 itself? Were you able to climb out on your own or were you assisted?
4 A. They simply ordered me. I was barely able to move. The
5 depression was not that deep. I tumbled over and fell down onto the road.
6 And once I was at the road, one of them kicked me and another man hit me
7 with a rifle butt. One spat at me and one slapped me.
8 Q. And what happened after that? Did they take you anywhere?
9 A. Yes. That was after they had talked and asked about the time in
10 order to know when exactly the Chetnik was captured. They lingered on for
11 a minute or two, and then we headed out towards a forest near Kolari. We
12 passed a cemetery. There's a meadow, a clearing in the woods, and there
13 were already women there, sitting in a circle. The group also included a
14 young boy. I was not really able to watch. I just sort of saw the scene
15 in passing. I spotted a group of women with this child. We passed them
16 and continued on to Kolari. They helped me along for a while until I grew
17 completely -- until my numbness was completely gone and I was able to walk
18 on on my own.
19 Q. The group that you saw, the woman and the small boy, did you know,
20 did you recognise anyone in the group? And could you tell us if they were
21 Serb or Muslim?
22 A. They were Serbs. I knew all of them by sight. But I was heading
23 down the Drina River and they were headed in the opposite direction. I
24 recognised this young boy, Mitrovic. I recognised most of their faces to
25 the extent that I could get a really good look, because I only saw them in
1 passing. But I couldn't give you their names. I couldn't tell you what
2 the difference is between their respective names, if you understand what I
4 Q. All right. The small boy, you said his last name was Mitrovic.
5 Is that Branimir Mitrovic, also known as Branko?
6 A. Yes, Branimir Mitrovic. Yes.
7 Q. You mentioned that they were standing in a group. Could you tell
8 us, other than the women and the small boy, who else was in this group?
9 A. Not standing. They were seated, if you see what I mean. I said
10 several times that I knew those people, but I don't think it would mean
11 anything to you if I started explaining now.
12 Q. In addition -- they were civilians; correct?
13 A. Yes --
14 Q. Did you notice --
15 A. -- civilians. Those were ladies that had been forced to leave
16 their homes and taken to Srebrenica.
17 Q. Forced by whom? And I guess my question is: Was there anyone
18 else standing with them, any men in uniform or civilian clothing --
19 A. Well, yes --
20 Q. -- I guess I should say sitting.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. The men in uniform and civilian clothing, were they armed?
23 A. Well, I hope the idea you're getting is not those mothers who had
24 been inside their homes were also carrying weapons. Those were just
25 housewives peacefully going about on their own business in their own homes
1 and that was when they were picked up and taken to Srebrenica. That's
2 what I was able to see as we were passing the group. There were, I think,
3 about two soldiers standing by the group. Whether they were guarding the
4 group or just passing by, like we were, I don't know. Anyway, I later
5 heard that they too were brought in.
6 Q. So from what you could see, it didn't appear to you as though the
7 women and the small boy, Branko, were free to leave, that they were being
9 A. No. No. Certainly not. Had they been able to, they would
10 have -- well, yes, they would have left their homes. They wouldn't have
11 been there, under escort.
12 Q. Could you tell us about the road that you took, and if anything
13 significant happened after you passed the small group, which included the
14 boy Branko.
15 Q. Well, on the road to Kolari, I was ahead of them. They gave me a
16 rifle. They said, "There was a Chetnik who wants to fight us." And we
17 reached a place called Stencica, the forest of Borovnik. There are
18 blackberries growing there. I found Damjan Maksimovic there. I later
19 found out that it was him. He was probably trying to escape from them.
20 Suddenly, there was an explosion, a grenade exploded, and he killed
21 himself right there. And when the explosion occurred, they started
22 shooting. When they passed his body, they just turned the body over,
23 extracting a pack of cigarettes from one of his pockets. That was all.
24 Q. And how many soldiers were escorting you, walking along with you?
25 A. In order to be realistic, I really can't tell you exactly how
1 many. I can talk about the number of soldiers when I was captured, but
2 I -- while I was still ahead of them, I was in no position to be turning
3 back. I could hear the sound of boots stomping on the ground, but I
4 couldn't tell how many. They were after me, they were following me on the
5 road to Kolari. And we walked down to a water -- a small water plant in
6 Kolari. And one man came along and he said that he would give me some
7 heat, meaning probably that he would kill me. He brought me over to a
8 bramble tree, and then another man came along and said, "Don't touch
9 him? What will the man say?" And then they took me back to towards
11 Q. And what happened after you were taken in that direction?
12 A. We were moving in that direction until we reached a village
13 further on from Radovcici. An elderly lady came out, and she said,
14 "Listen, Chetnik, you killed my grandson," and then she started -- started
15 hitting out at me with a pair of metal tongs or a poker used to poke coal,
16 embers. I had never been to that village before, therefore I didn't know
17 what she was talking about, but I can't deny that something like that
18 might have happened in that village anyway.
19 Q. Did the soldiers prevent her from hitting you, the ones that were
20 escorting you?
21 A. She hit out at me several times, and then we left the village and
22 headed for Kragljevode.
23 Q. And what happens after you arrived in Kragljevode?
24 A. I'll say this again. When we reached the village, the name of
25 which I think is Tokoljac, the soldiers stayed right there and I was
1 escorted by a young man and young woman with automatic weapons who took me
2 to Kragljevode. At that time a lorry came along. We boarded the lorry
3 and were off to Srebrenica.
4 Q. The young man and woman who carried automatic weapons, were they
5 also dressed as soldiers? Or, I should say, were they in uniform or
6 civilian clothing?
7 A. Yes. Uniform. Uniform. The young woman, I can't remember
8 specifically, but I do believe she also wore a camouflage jacket over
9 jeans or something like that. The young man was wearing a camouflage
11 Q. And once you were -- you were put into a lorry; correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And who was in this lorry? Or were there any other individuals in
14 this lorry?
15 A. In this lorry, apart from the three of us, the two of them and
16 myself, there were two -- four or five, actually, other soldiers also
17 carrying weapons, and some persons who were wounded, too.
18 Q. When you said there were persons wounded, who were you referring
19 to? Were they wounded civilians or wounded --
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Were they of Serb or Muslim ethnicity?
22 A. Muslim, and they were soldiers.
23 Q. Were you the only Serb civilian in the lorry?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And what, if anything, happened during the -- while you were in
1 the lorry being taken to Srebrenica?
2 A. As we got onto the lorry, this young man said, "Here's a Chetnik.
3 We need to take him to Srebrenica." They started lighting matches, one by
4 one, to see if I could identify them. I said I couldn't, I said I didn't
5 know them. Some hit me, some spat at me, some made threats that they
6 would cut one of my limbs once we arrived in the prison. And it went on
7 like that until we reached Srebrenica eventually.
8 Q. What time of day did you arrive in Srebrenica?
9 A. It was dark by that time. I'm not sure about the exact time, but
10 darkness was already present.
11 Q. Prior to this day, January 16th, 1993, had you been to Srebrenica
13 A. I'd been to Srebrenica on business several times, when I needed to
14 get a new ID or when I went for military -- premilitary training, but that
15 was all. I never needed to go there for any other reason.
16 Q. Once you arrived in Srebrenica, what happened?
17 A. Once we were there, across the way from the department store,
18 those two persons, the young man and woman who brought me, I heard the
19 man's name was Cicko Mevludin, but I can't confirm whether that was the
20 person. He asked me whether I would give him my clothes and watch, the
21 watch that I had on me, as well as my boots. I didn't have a choice,
22 really, so I said that I would.
23 Q. And just before we discuss what was -- what you -- what
24 clothing -- your clothing and your watch, could you tell us where the
25 truck or the lorry stopped in Srebrenica? Could you identify whether it
1 was in front of a building or some other structure?
2 A. There was a building, coming from the direction of Jadar, and the
3 department store is to your right. I can't tell you if this was a social
4 security building, or something like that. But I could see a young woman
5 coming down the stairs, and she brought me a pair of slippers after my
6 boots had been taken from me, a pair of women's slippers, very small, and
7 some sort of an overall, which was blue.
8 Q. And what was the material of this overall? Was it thin or thick
10 A. Blue. Thin, just perfectly regular overall. I think they use the
11 same kind all over the world. Maybe the colour differs.
12 Q. And after these items were taken from you, what happened next?
13 A. Next, they took me to the police station.
14 Q. And when you say "they," who are you referring to? And how many
15 of them were there?
16 A. I can't tell you. It was night, and I remember this same man,
17 Cicko, after a while, they told me that the person weighs name was
18 Mevludin. My conclusion was his name was Cicko Mevludin. She walked
19 ahead of me, and there was someone walking behind, but I didn't turn back.
20 And we reached the police station. They took me to a cell there.
21 Q. Before we get to what happened in the police station, could you
22 tell me whether these individuals were wearing uniforms? And were these
23 the same individuals that were in the truck or the lorry?
24 A. Well, when I reached the police station, this young man and woman
25 were no longer around, or at least I couldn't see them. Once there, there
1 were police officers who were wearing blue uniforms, the kind they used to
2 wear in the former Yugoslavia. Outside there were, perhaps, two
3 officials, and inside there were about four or five persons, not including
4 the one who had brought me there. I can't tell you whether anyone else
5 was around, but I did notice one particular person whom I had seen
6 previously, before my arrival in Srebrenica. He's a rather tall man. He
7 had a white cotton coat with black spots. My idea was that the man's name
8 was Nurija, but I can't be sure about it.
9 Q. When you were taken to the police station, were you taken directly
10 to Nurija, or were you -- prior to being taken some place else in the
11 building? And where was this Nurija located? Was he in a particular area
12 of the building?
13 A. Nurija was standing in the hallway of the police station, and he
14 asked me, "Chetnik, do you know Pero Milosevic?" And I said, "Yes, he is
15 my wife's uncle." My apologies for this obscenity. He said, "I'll fuck
16 his mother. He's a Chetnik just like you are."
17 Q. And after he said this to you, did he ask you any questions about
18 yourself, or anything else, for that matter?
19 A. After that they seized my wallet. My military identification
20 booklet was there as well as other personal documents. Probably a
21 photograph of my wife and a photograph of myself. Some money was probably
22 in the wallet too. They made some remarks and then took me along to the
23 cell, to the right of the entrance to the police station. Once I was just
24 outside the cell, they opened the door. One of them kicked me in the
25 small of my back, and I banged my head against a radiator, as a result of
1 which I fell unconscious.
2 Q. The person who kicked you, could you see -- could you tell what he
3 was wearing? Was it a uniform or civilian clothing?
4 A. It was probably a uniform. But again, it was nighttime, there was
5 no electricity, no light, no nothing. See my point? I wasn't exactly
6 there for a field day. I wasn't looking around. Once I was pushed inside
7 the room, he hit me from behind. As I was falling, I banged my head
8 against the radiator, and I just fell unconscious.
9 Q. Were -- when you were -- when you struck your head, do you
10 remember if there was any blood as a result, or any kind of injury to your
12 A. I was bleeding. The next morning, before they beat me again, I
13 realised that I was all covered in blood. Maybe it was as a result of the
14 wounding, too, and not only banging my head. I was suffering severe pain.
15 And I also saw blood on the other people in the room before I hit my head
16 against the radiator. I can't tell you whether those other people in the
17 cell too had been beaten, or whether the blood was all mine.
18 Q. The other people in the cell, how many were there, that you
20 A. Kojo was in the cell, a man nicknamed Kojo. Then there was Mico.
21 I did say this several times. I'm not sure if Mile Trifunovic was also
22 there, but I'm sure that he was brought the next day. There were two or
23 three people. I can't say exactly.
24 Q. Just going over the names of these individuals again. You said
25 there was -- did you know any of these individuals prior to meeting them
1 in this cell?
2 A. No, with the exception of Mile. I can't remember, but he probably
3 came the next day.
4 Q. Do you remember Mile's last name? Did he have --
5 A. Yes, Trifunovic.
6 Q. And the other individuals, what were their names? Do you
7 remember -- do you remember their names? Did they tell you at some point?
8 A. I didn't know at the time.
9 Q. All right. Did you later --
10 A. I found out later.
11 Q. All right. Could you tell us what the names are? In addition to
12 Mile Trifunovic, could you tell us the other individuals?
13 A. To the best of my recollection, Kojo was there, Ratko was there
14 too, and Mico, if I'm not mistaken.
15 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, at this time I think it's a good
16 point to take a break.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Ms. Richardson. We'll have a 25-minute
18 break, starting from now. Thank you.
19 --- Recess taken at 10.29 a.m.
20 --- On resuming at 11.05 a.m.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Richardson.
22 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour.
23 Q. Mr. Ivanovic, before the break, you were testifying to the men who
24 were also in the same cell as you were placed in, and I'd like to clarify
25 with you the names of those individuals.
1 The first question is: How many -- how many, including yourself,
2 were kept in this prison, in this cell? How many men?
3 A. As far as I can remember, there were four of us altogether, if I
4 remember well.
5 MS. RICHARDSON: I apologise, Your Honour. If I can just have a
7 Q. Do you recall giving the names of the men that were kept in the
8 cell with you to the Prosecution -- or to the investigators?
9 A. I remember that with me in the cell was Ratko Nikolic. That's
10 something I learnt later. Vojo, nicknamed Kostadin, and Vico Sasje, if I
11 remember well.
12 Q. With respect to Vico, do you know how his last name to be
14 MR. JONES: Your Honour, I did say at the outset that I would
15 object to the Prosecution suggesting names to the witness.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I think I will sustain the objection, and you
17 will need to rephrase your question, whichever way you can rephrase it,
18 now that you have already pronounced the name.
19 MS. RICHARDSON: Well, Your Honour --
20 JUDGE AGIUS: At least try to --
21 MS. RICHARDSON: -- I'll try to rephrase it.
22 Q. Do you recall giving the name of an additional individual, an
23 additional name, to the investigator, and that being the name of one of
24 the men that you were held with?
25 A. Let me try and remember now. I don't know, perhaps I might have
1 mixed up the hospital with the prison cell.
2 Q. Do you recall the name that you gave to the investigator as
4 A. Yes, I do.
5 Q. So --
6 A. That's right.
7 Q. So in the cell with you, so we're clear, is an individual called
8 Ratko, Kosta, Bogdan, and Mile Trifunovic; is that correct?
9 A. No. I mentioned Mile Trifunovic several times, but he was not
10 with me at that point. He only came in the following day, as far as I can
11 remember, and I think that's what I've been telling in my statement. I
12 hope that I did not make any mistakes there.
13 Q. So for the first night, for the first time that you became aware
14 that there were other men in that cell with you, these other men were
15 Ratko, Kosta, and Bogdan?
16 A. Yes, that's correct.
17 Q. And at some point, Mile Trifunovic was also brought to the cell.
18 A. Yes. That was the following morning, at the latest.
19 Q. Could you describe the cell that you were held in with these other
21 A. I will describe it to you the way I could see it. I don't know if
22 it's necessary for me to describe what the building looked like the moment
23 we entered the police station, or just the cell.
24 Q. Well, had you been to this building before, before being -- before
25 January 16th, this particular building?
1 A. I went to that station only once, when I needed to get my identity
2 card, and never again.
3 Q. So you were aware that evening, when you were brought there, that
4 that was the police station?
5 A. It was already nighttime, and I could only assume it was the
6 police station building. But because there were police officers there,
7 and when we got into the reception hall in the lobby, on the right-hand
9 Q. All right. And could you describe for us the cell that you were
10 kept in. Could you tell us the measurement? Was it big, small? Did it
11 have a window? And other things that might be important.
12 A. As far as I can remember, at the very entrance to the cell, there
13 were these bars. It was actually a barred window. And I could see
14 nothing of the cell itself, because it was nighttime. The following
15 morning, at dawn, I noticed that there was a radiator there and a window
16 that was closer to the ceiling, opposite the door that -- through which I
17 got into the cell.
18 Q. And this radiator, was that the one that you struck your head on,
19 that -- when you were -- when the person kicked you into the cell?
20 A. Most probably, because that's something I inferred from how my
21 head hit against the radiator.
22 Q. And was this a metal radiator?
23 A. Most probably, yes.
24 Q. What type of floor did this cell have?
25 A. As far as I could see, it was a concrete floor. The following
1 morning, when I came to after this hit in the head, I could see people
2 lying on the floor. There was no heating and not any sort of carpeting on
3 the floor.
4 Q. And what was the temperature in the room?
5 A. Probably the same as outside.
6 Q. And the following morning, were you able to determine if there
7 were any beds or blankets in the room?
8 A. No, there was none of that.
9 Q. And I take it when you say the temperature was the same as
10 outside, are you -- was it cold outside?
11 A. Yes, it was. It was wintertime, and Srebrenica is a similar -- a
12 similarly placed settlement as my own village.
13 MS. RICHARDSON: At this time, Your Honour, I would like to have
14 the usher's assistance with an exhibit that will be shown to the witness.
15 And we need to have it -- a number assigned to it.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Which exhibit are we talking about, Ms. --
17 MS. RICHARDSON: We're talking about a sketch of a building.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: No, it's with the statement.
19 THE REGISTRAR: There are two.
20 MS. RICHARDSON: Just the first one, please.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: This is the one which has ERN number finishing with
23 MS. RICHARDSON: Actually, Your Honour, I would like to have the
24 witness -- Your Honour, I'm sorry, I'd actually like to have the witness
25 view the sketch that ends in ERN number 401.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. That's why I mentioned it, because the
2 registrar mentioned or drew your attention that there were two, and you
3 said the first one, and the first one, according to -- at least
4 numerically would be 400, not 401. But there is absolutely no problem
5 with using 401 before 400.
6 MS. RICHARDSON: We'll get to the second exhibit in a while.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, go ahead.
8 Yes, Ms. Richardson.
9 MS. RICHARDSON:
10 Q. Mr. Ivanovic, do you recall when you were interviewed by the
11 investigator for the Prosecutor that you described the first building you
12 were held in when you arrived in Srebrenica?
13 A. Yes, I do.
14 Q. And did you prepare a sketch, an outline, of the inside of that
15 building as it appeared to you at that time?
16 A. Yes, that's correct. I drew this sketch that wasn't as nice as
17 this one. But this one is an accurate reflection of my own sketch.
18 Q. And the sketch that's before you, Prosecution Exhibit number --
19 I'm not sure if a number was assigned to it, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Not yet. This will receive Exhibit Number P473,
22 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you.
23 Q. Mr. Ivanovic, P473, is a sketch, as you stated, of the building
24 that you were held in when you first arrived in Srebrenica. Does this
25 sketch reflect the one that you drew originally?
1 A. Yes, it does.
2 Q. And you, in fact, reviewed this sketch, and you signed your name?
3 A. Yes, I most certainly did.
4 Q. Now, if you could --
5 MS. RICHARDSON: If I could have the usher's assistance to place
6 this sketch, Prosecution's Exhibit 473, on the ELMO.
7 Q. Mr. Ivanovic, I'd like you to take a look at that sketch now, and
8 walk us through via your testimony, where it was that you first entered
9 the building, by pointing -- if -- okay.
10 A. [Indicates].
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. For the record, the witness indicates or
12 points to the spot on the document where it says "Main Entrance Door,"
13 "Vrata," and also Glavni Vlaz.
14 MS. RICHARDSON:
15 Q. So you came in that way, so what Your Honour just placed on the
16 record. Where was it that you spoke to, or you were questioned when you
17 first entered the building? Could you point to that area?
18 A. [Indicates]. Yes, it's this area here, where I said that the men
19 who first asked me about what I'd been telling about before was called
21 JUDGE AGIUS: So this happened in the corridor, in the hallway, in
22 other words? Not inside the room.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes, it was in the corridor.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. So for the record, the witness points at the
25 triangle that is situated or is shown above the reception room, in the
1 same document, in which a triangle there is the word "door" and partly in,
2 partly out, the word "Vrata."
4 MS. RICHARDSON:
5 Q. Could you tell us, Mr. Ivanovic, where it was that the cell you
6 were held in was located? Could you point to it on the --
7 A. Yes, I will. [Indicates].
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. For the record, the witness points at the
9 square at the extreme top right of the diagram, in which there is the word
10 "cell," "celija". Yes.
11 MS. RICHARDSON:
12 Q. Now, on that sketch as well, could you point to where, inside the
13 room, you remember the radiator being located?
14 A. [Indicates].
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. The witness, for the record, points at the
16 part in that -- the spot in that room which already indicates "radiator."
17 MS. RICHARDSON: All right.
18 Q. And also, could you point to where the door to that cell was
19 located, and the bars.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, let's cut this -- that room, as shown in this
21 diagram, shows a radiator. It shows a door. It shows a hallway door,
22 vrata, a hallway us the room. It shows cell bars, and it shows also where
23 a bucket is supposed to have been located. Are all these things and
24 places correctly indicated in that room, or not? In that sketch.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The only thing I can't remember
1 about is this bucket, because there's a bucket drawn here.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. But otherwise, the door to the small corridor
3 and the door, then, from that small corridor that leads to the main
4 corridor, are as shown in the diagram? Do you confirm that?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I'm not sure whether this was
6 a door, but I know that you would go into the corridor and then you would
7 come across the bars and then you would have the door, just as it is drawn
9 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Were there any windows in this cell?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. There was a window placed
11 higher up, toward the ceiling, and it was smaller.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Where was it in relation to the radiator? Was it
13 above the radiator? Was it on that wall, or was it on a different wall?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You have to believe me when I tell
15 you that I simply did not have the time to pay attention to these things.
16 But I can tell you that I assume that it was halfway up, something like
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, but was it on the wall where there was the
19 radiator, or was it on another wall?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. It was above the radiator, as
21 far as I remember, if I remember well.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Ivanovic.
23 Yes, Ms. Richardson.
24 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour.
25 Q. Now, Mr. Ivanovic, do you recall how many -- were there guards
1 guarding you at this point, you and the other prisoners, as you were held
2 in the cell?
3 A. As far as I remember, there were none that I could see there.
4 Q. Were there individuals -- when you say "there," what do you mean
5 by "there"? There was no one, there were no guards directly outside of
6 your cell. Maybe we can go back to the diagram. The door to your cell,
7 the hallway door, or outside the bars, there was no one there guarding
9 A. Precisely so. I could not see anyone just outside the cell. I
10 only saw those who came to beat us.
11 Q. Now, could you tell us about the beatings that occurred in the
12 cell? How often were you beaten?
13 A. I don't know, because many times I would slip out of
14 consciousness. But I do remember this once, when a man came to beat me,
15 he ordered me to come close to the bars, grabbed my ears, and then slipped
16 his hand through the bars, hitting me in the face, calling me names, a
17 Chetnik's mother. And then he motioned as if he was going to pluck my eye
18 out, saying "That Chetnik doesn't need to have eyes."
19 Q. Do you recall how this individual was dressed, what he was
21 A. I've said this several times already. I think that it was either
22 a camouflage uniform or those were civilian clothes. I can't really say.
23 I was beaten so many times; I was covered in blood. The only thing that I
24 could notice was that he was a tall man. I noticed this while he was
25 beating me.
1 Q. All right. Did other people beat you as well, other than this
2 particular individual?
3 A. They would come and go. It wasn't always the same person coming.
4 I suppose that those who were their superiors allowed them to do so. Some
5 would come and beat me with rods. It was perhaps easiest for them to just
6 poke the rods through the bars and then hit me in the head, in the
7 shoulders. And that's how they would do that.
8 MR. JONES: Your Honour, just one small matter. I've noticed this
9 witness does have a tendency sometimes to speculate and to say that
10 "probably X" or he supposes Y. Perhaps he could be instructed that he's
11 only to tell us, of course, what he knows. There he's supposing that
12 superiors allowed them to do something. If it's not within his knowledge,
13 perhaps he can be instructed that he should just tell us what he knows.
14 I've noticed several examples so far, and I thought it was time to bring
15 it to your attention.
16 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honours, I don't think this is necessary. I
17 think the witness is simply saying how he believed this occurred. So I
18 don't think he's at all speculating. I'm sure --
19 JUDGE AGIUS: For the time, for whatever it may be worth, I think
20 it can be accepted as it is being put. Then obviously you have a right to
21 ask him whether he is speculating or whether he has at least some basic
22 ground on which he is basing his assessment.
23 MR. JONES: Yes. I can, of course, cover all these points in
24 cross-examination. It was just that I thought it might save time if this
25 witness is clear from the start that if he doesn't know something --
1 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't think I can suggest even to my colleagues
2 that we consider this as mere, pure speculation. At this point in time,
3 he's telling us what his assessment was at the time, and what supposedly
4 it is still now. And then we cover it as we go along.
5 MR. JONES: I'm obliged, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: But I don't think it's being put as mere speculation
7 as such, okay? Thank you.
9 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour.
10 Q. Now, you mentioned that you were beaten. Were the other prisoners
11 beaten as well?
12 A. May I just say one more thing? I hope that the Honourable Judge
13 does not think that I would pretend to know what these people thought. I
14 wasn't on friendly terms there with them, to know what was going on in
15 their heads.
16 Q. Thank you. Now, with respect to my question about the beatings of
17 other prisoners, could you tell us whether or not they were also beaten,
18 along with yourself?
19 A. Yes, they beat them as well, but they beat me most. I spent most
20 of the time in sort of a coma, so it's very difficult for me to explain it
21 all to you.
22 Q. And what did they use to beat you and the other prisoners? You
23 mentioned rods. Could you tell us whether that was a metal or wooden rod,
24 and if they used any other types of items?
25 A. These were metal rods. There were some wooden bats, baseball
1 bats, as they call them. Whatever could be poked through the bars was
2 used. And they did beat the other ones as well, but probably to a lesser
3 extent, although I don't really remember everything.
4 Q. The beatings that occurred, could you -- were these beatings done
5 by men who were guarding you? Do you know who these men were?
6 A. I couldn't really say that it was the guards who beat us, because
7 if they had beat us, they would probably have opened the door, whereas the
8 people who did beat us would do it through the bars.
9 Q. And you mentioned, you testified, about an incident with a knife.
10 Could you tell us a little bit more about that, with a knife and your
11 eyelid? Could you tell us a little bit more about this?
12 A. Yes, that's correct, I did say that. Much in the same he showed
13 me, he beckoned me, "Chetnik, come over here," I came as far as the bars,
14 and then he poked a knife through the bars, pointing it at my eyes saying
15 that a Chetnik will not need an eye. It is purely coincidental that I was
16 not hurt. There were no injuries.
17 Q. Could you explain how it was that your head was struck against the
18 bars of the cell? Could you explain that in further detail?
19 A. Why not. I've said it already. They would put their hands
20 through the bars, grab me by the ears and then bang my head against the
21 bars until I fell unconscious.
22 Q. In addition to the incident with your -- with the knife being held
23 against your eye, did there come a time that you were threatened with a
24 knife in addition to that time? Were any threats made to cut off your
25 hand, for instance?
1 A. I don't remember that specifically. That was in a different cell.
2 But I'll say this again: I can't quite remember, but I think it was also
3 the police station. He tried to cut my arm when I held my hand out. I
4 don't remember whether it was in the prison or elsewhere. But I do
5 believe that it was, after all, at the police station, in the prison.
6 Q. What kind of injuries did you receive as a result of the beatings?
7 Could you tell us what your physical condition was?
8 A. Which point in time do you have in mind? While I was at the
9 police station or ...
10 Q. I'll clarify. At this point in time we're talking about at the
11 police station and my question is: What was your physical condition
12 following the beatings at the police station?
13 A. My physical condition was very poor at the police station. I was
14 beaten until I fell unconscious, and so were the other people. We would
15 lie on the floor with no mattress or blankets, food or water. I don't
16 know what else I can say.
17 Q. Were you bleeding, or were the others bleeding?
18 A. Yes, I've said that, didn't I? I was all covered in blood, and I
19 assume that some of the others were covered in my blood, as I was in
20 theirs. We were all covered in blood.
21 Q. What time of the day or evening did the beatings occur, if you
23 A. I do remember. I think it always happened, for the most part,
24 just before dusk, and at night too. You could say from the onset of dusk
25 on, whenever it occurred to someone to do so, they would beat us.
1 Q. Were you treated, you or any of the other prisoners, treated for
2 injuries as a result of the beating?
3 A. No, never, not in any way, in neither of the cells. Never. The
4 first treatment I received was at the hospital.
5 Q. Did you receive any food or water while you were in this building?
6 A. I don't remember.
7 Q. How long were you held in this cell, you and the other prisoners?
8 Well, I should rephrase that question. How long were you held in this
10 A. I said it several times, when asked. I believe two, three, or
11 four days, as a maximum.
12 Q. Did there come a point in time that you were removed, you and the
13 other prisoners were removed from this cell?
14 A. Yes. After those two, three, or four days - I wasn't counting at
15 the time - we were taken to the All People's Defence building. I think in
16 the former Yugoslavia it used to be between the court building and the
17 town hall, the municipal building.
18 Q. Now, before we leave the police station altogether, I have a final
19 question for you: Did you speak to the other prisoners who were there,
20 and did they tell you how long they had been held in that cell prior to
21 your arrival?
22 A. No.
23 Q. All right. At this point I'd like you to tell us about the
24 transfer of yourself and the other prisoners from this police building
25 to the -- the defence building. When did this occur? What time of the
2 A. I think it was in the afternoon. Two soldiers took us there, I
3 can't remember how. I only remember how I arrived in the cell at the All
4 People's Defence building. I can't even remember how I was transferred
5 there, or whether I was barefoot or actually had shoes on. It's difficult
6 to form an image in my mind now. I remember that moment, and a while
7 later I remember myself already been transferred to a different cell.
8 Q. Do you remember if you were -- if you walked or if you had been
9 taken there in a vehicle? Do you recall that much?
10 A. I really can't remember. That's precisely what I told you about
11 the footwear. I simply don't remember. I remember that later on, I was
12 in a different cell which was different from the one in which I had
13 previously been held.
14 Q. And were you and all -- and the other prisoners transferred to
15 this other building together?
16 A. Probably so, yes.
17 Q. Did anyone come to you and say anything to you about the transfer,
18 just before you were actually removed from the police building; do you
20 A. No, or at least not that I remember. Someone probably picked us
21 up. But how, and using what exactly, I don't know.
22 Q. You mentioned that you were escorted by soldiers. Do you remember
23 how many?
24 A. I remember that I said probably two soldiers, but I underlined at
25 the time that I was not able to form an accurate image of this, whether we
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 were brought there walking or in a different way. I remember finding
2 myself in a different room a while later. I remember that it was no
3 longer the same room.
4 Q. Do you recall, prior to your being held in this building, whether
5 you had been to this building before, during the times in the past when
6 you had visited Srebrenica?
7 A. Whether I ...
8 Q. Was this the first -- I'll rephrase the question. Was this the
9 first time you had been in this building, the national defence building?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And could you describe to us what happened when you arrived at the
12 building, if you recall, you and the other prisoners.
13 A. The moment I arrived, I was probably not fully conscious of
14 everything that was going on; therefore, I can't remember everything. But
15 later, when I was taken to see a judge in the town hall, I had a different
16 view of the entrance, the one that I've already described, as well as the
18 Q. Can you recall any other -- well, could you -- I'll rephrase.
19 Could you describe the cell that you were placed in.
20 A. Of course I can. After everything that had happened, and when I
21 regained consciousness, at the entrance to the building, to the right and
22 then straight down, at the front of that building, there was a prison
23 three, three by four, or something like that. I can't say exactly.
24 Probably to my right there were two windows, maybe more. But I remember
1 At the entrance of the door itself, we were lying there in a
2 circle. Outside the door there was a table with two or three chairs.
3 Mile Trifunovic sat in one of those chairs. I remember well that I was
4 considering the possibility of hanging myself if they started cutting me
5 up. There were two pipes with two valves above that table.
6 Q. Do you recall if there were any beds or blankets in the room?
7 A. No, certainly not. What beds? Some blankets on the floor, one
8 blanket for two persons, and there was another blanket to cover ourselves
9 with. But this meant nothing, because after they had beaten us, they
10 would poor water on us and then kick us to see whether we were still
11 alive, and then this same routine again. And they would just smile.
12 Q. Do you recall if there was a window in that room?
13 JUDGE AGIUS: He has already said that there were two that he can
14 remember, maybe more, but he doesn't remember.
15 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: He can perhaps confirm whether there was a stove in
17 that room.
18 MS. RICHARDSON:
19 Q. Your Honour's question was whether or not there was a stove in the
20 room. Do you remember?
21 A. Yes, there was a stove, which wasn't much use. They would make a
22 fire several times. One of those people, guards or soldiers, or whoever
23 they were, they would fill the stove, and then an hour later they would
24 come to our door to say, "Look at all these Chetniks, they're still
1 Q. Now, were you aware of whether or not there were other rooms close
2 to -- in the vicinity of your cell?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. What rooms do you recall?
5 A. I suppose there was a room to the left of our cell, that it was
6 empty, whereas in the one next to that, there were the women and children
7 who were there.
8 Q. Do you recall if there was a toilet?
9 A. Yes, there was a toilet. I can only speak for myself, of course.
10 In the 40 days I spent there, I only went once. Ratko Nikolic helped me.
11 There was a boot that was cut in half, and I used that to relieve myself.
12 I'm not sure what he did then. But I know that he told me, "Ilija, don't
13 go anywhere. If you leave this room, you will never come back alive." I
14 had no need to go, really, because I hardly had any food or anything to
15 drink, and what I had was precious little.
16 Q. Getting back to the room, the description of the room, could you
17 tell us whether or not you remember whether the window that you described
18 or recall had glass? And can you tell us whether or not the room was warm
19 or cold, what the temperature was?
20 A. The same thing applies as to the SUP building. The temperature
21 was more or less the same as outside temperature. Sometimes they would
22 light a fire for us, but it didn't give any heat at all. And then
23 sometimes, after making this fire, they would try to stop up the window,
24 there would be a pane of glass that was broken, and then one and a half
25 hours later they would try to stop it up, and then an hour and a half or
1 two later, they would be back just to say, "Look at these Chetniks, they
2 are still alive."
3 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, at this time I would request the
4 usher's assistance with the next exhibit, and that is the document ending
5 in 400, which is a sketch as well. And if we can have a number assigned
6 to this exhibit.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: This would be P474. Thank you.
8 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour.
9 Q. Mr. Ivanovic, please take a look at that sketch, and I would ask
10 you the same questions I asked before about the previous exhibit and the
11 sketch that you testified to. Do you recall providing information about
12 the way the building -- the area where you were held appeared to you when
13 you were in prison in Srebrenica, the national defence building, that is?
14 A. That's true. I have it in front of me. And if you want me to, I
15 can explain to you what this is about.
16 Q. Yes. For the moment I would only ask you with respect to the
17 sketch: Is this the sketch that you yourself drew, or is this a sketch
18 that was drawn from your sketch?
19 A. That's correct. The sketch that I drew was altered. But I signed
20 this new one and it accurately reflects what I had drawn in the first
21 place. If you want me to, I can show it to you --
22 Q. Yes, please.
23 A. -- the way that I originally drew it.
24 Q. Well, why don't you tell us whether this sketch accurately
25 reflects that when you walk into the building there is a hallway, and to
1 the right there is a reception room. Do you recall that?
2 A. I do. That's correct. What is drawn here is perfectly accurate.
3 Actually, it was drawn by me.
4 Q. Could you point to where your cell was located.
5 A. [Indicates].
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. For the record, the witness indicates the
7 section of the diagram which contains the word "cell" and "celija," and
8 the right-hand side -- at the right-hand side of the document. Thank you.
9 MS. RICHARDSON:
10 Q. And looking at the sketch, do you recall that there was a table
11 located approximately where this is -- this is drawn on the sketch? And
12 also look at the area where a stove was located. Does that fairly
13 represent the room as you remembered it?
14 A. That is true. But the table, as far as I can remember, the table
15 was just opposite the door which was opposite the entrance, and there were
16 two or three chairs around it. The stove was in this area over here, give
17 or take a metre or two. And the window was one of these. [Indicates].
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. For the record, the witness indicates the
19 windows, the stove, and the table as indicated, or as shown in the
20 diagram, and confirms that they were in the same position.
21 MS. RICHARDSON:
22 Q. Now, also on this diagram, there is a -- can you see -- could you
23 confirm for us that, in fact, this is where the women's room was located,
24 where the women were held in this building?
25 A. Yes. Yes, that's correct. I can point it out to you, the room in
1 which the women were being held. [Indicates].
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. For the record, the witness indicates the
3 square on the diagram which contains the words "women's room," zenska
5 MS. RICHARDSON:
6 Q. And the toilet that you recall was located next to your cell? And
7 is that correctly reflected in the diagram before you?
8 A. Yes, it's correctly reflected, but not the door. I remember
9 clearly the door to the cell was over here, as far as I can remember.
11 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, the record should reflect --
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, so let me understand. Where was the door to
13 the toilets? Can you show it on the diagram.
14 THE WITNESS: [Indicates]. [Interpretation] I showed that it was
15 here, because I knew it was just next to the door to the cell, to the left
16 of the door, actually.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: So let's get this clear. If you look at that
18 diagram, you see already a door plotted there; right? That is the door of
19 the cell; is it correct?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's correct.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: And the door of the cell where -- was where it is
22 shown on the diagram?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I remember that it was
24 straight down the corridor and to the right.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: And next to it, in the wall of the room that you
1 describe as toilets, there was a door leading to the toilets. And that
2 would be at exactly adjacent to the door leading to the cell. Is that
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's correct.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Can I finally ask you, sir, to take a
6 pen and draw on that diagram the place -- indicate to us the place where
7 the door to the toilets was.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'll try to show everything, to the
9 extent that I remember. [Marks].
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. And while we are at it, could you also
11 indicate where the door leading to the reception, the "prijavnica," was.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I understand what you're asking,
13 you mean the way out, or you mean the door to the reception room?
14 JUDGE AGIUS: The door to the reception room.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'll show it right here.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Could you plot it on the diagram, please.
18 THE WITNESS: [Marks].
19 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. And the door leading to the woman's
20 room, the zenska soba.
21 THE WITNESS: [Marks].
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Could you please put your initials
23 against each of those three doors, please.
24 THE WITNESS: [Marks].
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Ivanovic.
1 Yes, Ms. Richardson.
2 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour.
3 Q. Mr. Ivanovic, when you arrived at this prison, this cell, were
4 there other prisoners there?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Did there come a time that other prisoners were, in fact, brought
8 A. That's correct. They were brought in from Cerska.
9 Q. And do you recall the names of the individuals that were brought
11 A. Yes, I remember their names, I've said several times, after my
13 Q. How many men were brought in?
14 A. Four men and one woman were brought in from Cerska.
15 Q. Now, prior to -- do you recall the names of these individuals, and
16 could you tell us their names?
17 A. I'll do my best. Rade Pejic. Dragan Ilic. Andza, I didn't know
18 her last name. Branko Sekulic. I can't remember. If I may be allowed to
19 use the piece of paper that I have brought over from Srebrenica.
20 Q. And what is this piece of paper that you're referring to?
21 A. This is something that Milomir Djukic wrote down for me at the
22 hospital. He asked all of us who were there at the hospital, should any
23 of us survive, to ascertain exactly who were the people at the hospital,
24 and in the prison previously.
25 Q. You recall speaking with the investigator about the men that were
1 brought in from Cerska.
2 A. Yes, I do recall, but I may need a bit of time, because there were
3 so many things I'm thinking about at the same time. I do know the man
4 well, though, all of them in fact, all three of them, and I could describe
5 them for you too.
6 Q. All right. Well, do you recall telling the investigators that
7 Jakov Djukic was also brought in from Cerska?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. How long were you in the prison before the others arrived from
11 A. I believe about 17 days, give or take a day or two. I did not
12 exactly keep count. It's just how it seemed at the time.
13 Q. Do you recall who brought them to the prison, if they were
14 escorted by any one when they were brought to your cell?
15 A. Escorted, yes. But we had been beaten so badly, and I did not
16 even dare turn around. I was in a very poor state. And what I did manage
17 to see was a brief glance over my shoulder, that was all. Once they were
18 inside the cell, they started beating them, like they had beaten us.
19 Q. Now, with respect to other people in the cell, do you recall if at
20 some point other men were brought to the cell, other individuals, in
21 addition to the people from Cerska?
22 A. I don't remember those who were brought in. And following my
23 captivity, this man Miloje came. Miloje, Cane, that sort of thing.
24 Q. All right. Do you recall giving the names --
25 MR. JONES: Again, we don't want the Prosecution to be feeding
1 names to the witness. If the witness can just try to recall --
2 JUDGE AGIUS: The witness has asked me to refer to this piece of
3 paper, that we authorise him, and we will look at it --
4 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Sorry, I'll repeat. The witness -- alternatively,
6 the witness will ask me to refer to this piece of paper that he says he
7 received, indicating all the names, containing all the names, and of
8 course we will have to authorise him if he does that, and it will get us
9 back to where you don't want to arrive. I mean, let's be practical about
11 MR. JONES: Yes, Your Honour, I'm interested in being practical,
12 by all means. It's just that there are certain individuals who really --
13 we really don't know, and I believe the witness doesn't know, their first
14 name, their last name. The danger is --
15 JUDGE AGIUS: That's not going to change.
16 MR. JONES: The danger is the Prosecution will use one of these
17 other documents or some other source to suggest a name to the witness, and
18 so we're not getting his evidence, we're getting the Prosecution's version
19 of who these people were. That's my fear.
20 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, at some point --
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
22 MS. RICHARDSON: -- The witness did learn the names of certain
23 individuals, and I believe he can testify to that. He can also testify as
24 to whether or not he knew the names or not, or never learned it. And
25 certainly he can testify about whether or not these are the individuals
1 that he is referring to. And certainly at this point, we can ask the
2 witness if there's anything that would refresh his memory as to who was
3 held in this prison with him, and this is in reference to the piece of
4 paper that he mentioned.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, exactly. This is what I referred --
6 Mr. Ivanovic, are you having problems with remembering the names
7 of these individuals who were in the same cell with you, or in the same
8 building with you, there in the prison?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I'm not. It's just that it all
10 gets mixed up, and at the point when I have to give you the last names, I
11 just can't. It's not that I don't know these people. I know all the men
12 that were with me.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Can we be of any help to you? How can we help you
14 to refresh your memory and be more precise?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. Perhaps if you just
16 gave me a name, and then I can tell you yes or no. Otherwise, it would
17 take me a bit longer to try and visualise them all as they were lying down
18 in the cell.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. And you said you have a piece of paper which,
20 at some time, at some point in time, you hinted you would like to refer
21 to, this paper that was given to you by Djukic, or whatever his name is.
22 Do you have it with you here?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do. I have the paper. I
24 copied it before my departure. And I'm sorry that I actually didn't bring
25 the original paper with me. It's already all tore up. Because Milomir
1 Djukic, as he wrote the names on the piece of paper, he rolled it up like
2 a cigarette. And then I put it under my underwear, because I really
3 wanted to guard it well. And then as I returned to the cell, I placed it
4 beneath the linoleum that was there. And then I also tried to hide the
5 piece of paper behind the pipes that were running along the ceiling.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: And do you think that by referring to this piece of
7 paper it will help you to remember better the names of these persons?
8 Would you like to refer to this piece of paper?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course, unless you would object
10 to that, because if you would object to that, then it would take me a bit
11 longer to remember them. Otherwise I can read the piece of paper that I
12 have with me.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. So what I suggest to you, in order to help
14 you, is the following: That you produce this piece of paper, on which you
15 say you have these names, you let us have a look at it, that means the
16 Defence, Prosecution, and ourselves, and then you can refresh your memory
17 by referring to this piece of paper. Let's see it, to start with. And I
18 will ask you a couple of questions on it as well.
19 Show it to the Prosecution and to the Defence.
20 Yes, the understanding is that the witness will make use of this
21 document, after I put a couple of questions to him. Then when he's
22 finished with that document, we will have it photocopied so that we keep a
23 record of it, and you will have a record of it and you will have a record
24 of it, all right?
25 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. When did you prepare that list? When did you
2 write that list on the piece of paper, on that piece from a diary, a
3 paper, a sheet from a diary, that it is on?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This piece of paper here, that I
5 brought with me here, is a copy of the list that was contained on that
6 other paper that I brought from captivity and that I had in Srebrenica.
7 Now, if you want me to, I can read out the names.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: When did you copy it? When?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Just before my departure for
10 The Hague.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: And this other list, the original, have you shown it
12 to the investigators, to the Office of the Prosecutor, or not.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I have. Eileen Gilleece, if
14 I've pronounced her name and surname well, she was there. And perhaps you
15 won't believe me when I tell you this, but I also brought with me a list
16 of names of people who used to live with me in the village, because you
17 see my memory fails me. And I just wanted to have it there in case. But
18 if you don't want me to, I won't read the names on this particular list.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you have a copy of the original, by any chance,
20 in your records?
21 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, no, as far as I know, we do not have
22 a copy of the original list. However, I will seek to determine that
24 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.
25 Mr. Ivanovic, do you confirm or note, do you swear that this is a
1 faithful copy of the original, in other words, that it contains no more
2 and no less and nothing different from what the original contains?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I assure you that this is an
4 accurate copy. And if you want to, you can have someone visit my home.
5 It's there, the list, in the pocket of my jacket. My wife is there at
6 home. She could check in my purse. I have two purses, and one of them
7 contains this particular list. You will see what it's like. It's all
8 chipped and torn.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Now, when you go back home, please have that
10 original photocopied and send it to Ms. Richardson, and then
11 Ms. Richardson will let us have a copy of it. In the meantime, you are
12 being authorised by us three to refer to that document to refresh your
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: So perhaps you can answer the question which was,
16 earlier on, put to you by Ms. Richardson, namely, we are only interested
17 on knowing who was with you during your stay in the prison in Srebrenica.
18 You can start by telling us who was with you, and go slowly because ...
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have set aside those who arrived
20 in Cerska from those who were already there in the cell.
21 The following were brought in from Cerska: Branko Sekulic, Jakov
22 Djukic, Mico from Sase - I don't know his surname - Dragan Ilic, Rade
23 Pejic, and Andza was the woman.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Did you --
25 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. Did you see Mr. Milomir Djukic writing
2 this document? Did you see him writing it or not?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I did. I will tell you
4 something more about him. This Djukic, apart from the two days that he
5 spent in the cell, spent the entire time in the hospital. He was wounded
6 in both his legs, and thanks to this physician there - I'd like to see him
7 some day - his legs were saved. He was able to walk to the toilet.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: And can you tell us how he could procure a piece of
9 paper and a writing instrument, a pen or a ball pen or pencil, whatever he
10 wrote it with, while he was in detention?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I will explain it to you in detail.
12 At a later stage, when I felt -- when he felt already better, he would
13 receive comic books from the personnel there. Everyone respected him
14 there. He told me that they had been beating him until the time he
15 arrived in Srebrenica, where nobody was beating him. As far as he could
16 tell me, he received all manner of assistance there. His legs were about
17 to be amputated, but this particular physician suggested that they wait
18 for a while. And his legs recovered, they were not amputated. And I'm
19 very sorry that Milomir Djukic never showed up. I was organising a
20 donation in Srebrenica, and I was talking to a man who was telling me that
21 his brother was working for the police and he wanted to inquire after him,
22 because he had heard that he died of some sort of a pulmonary disease,
23 which I don't believe in.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: How did he come about a piece of paper and a pen, a
25 writing instrument? Because I take it that while you were in detention,
1 you were not allowed to keep anything with you. So how is it that this
2 Mr. Djukic had a paper and also something to write with?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You must have misunderstood me,
4 although I didn't tell you everything in great detail. I expected you to
5 ask me in stages. This was written in Srebrenica, at the hospital, and
6 not in captivity, because I told you that Milomir Djukic was being brought
7 old newspapers, comic books. So they really took great care of him.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So it wasn't written while he was in
9 captivity, it was written while he was in the hospital.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct. He was in detention only
11 for two days, but then again they sent him back to the hospital where I
12 and others saw him, and where he wrote this down for us.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Did you see him in the hospital as well?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: And that's where you saw him writing it?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. On one occasion, he said,
17 "Let's make the list." And I assure you I was unable to move at the time.
18 I was lying in a bed to the right from the entrance, and he was writing
19 the list, asking people what their names were. And that's how this list
20 before me was produced.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.
22 Yes, Ms. Richardson.
23 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour.
24 Q. Mr. Ivanovic, in addition to the men that were brought in from
25 Cerska, which included Branko Sekulic and Dragan Ilic - I won't go through
1 the others - and the men that were transferred with you from the police
2 station, were there any other prisoners brought in during the time that
3 you were held prison -- you were imprisoned in Srebrenica, the national
4 defence building, that is?
5 A. Yes. There was Ratko Nikolic, then Kosta, nicknamed Kojo, Bogdan,
6 Trifunovic Mile.
7 THE INTERPRETER: Another name that the interpreter hasn't caught.
8 MS. RICHARDSON: Okay.
9 Q. Do you recall anyone else?
10 A. I believe I've mentioned them all.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, one moment, Mr. Ivanovic, because there is a
12 small problem with the interpretation. You mentioned that there was Ratko
13 Nikolic, then Kosta, nicknamed Kojo, Bogdan, and Trifunovic Mile, and you
14 mentioned someone else but the interpreters couldn't catch up with you.
15 Who was the other one?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mile Radovanovic and Cane.
17 MS. RICHARDSON: That's fine.
18 Q. Just for clarification, I believe you mentioned also before that a
19 Miko was also in prison with you. Mico.
20 A. Yes, Mico from Sase.
21 Q. Do you know Mico's name?
22 A. No, I don't. I've never really known it, nor have I tried to find
23 it out, because I'm just simply telling you what I know.
24 Q. Do you recall approximately how old Mico was? You said he was
25 from Sase. Do you recall his age?
1 A. Mico from Sase was born perhaps in 1950, 1952. It was difficult
2 for me to make an accurate assessment. All of us were beaten up.
3 Q. Did Mico, in addition to the fact that he was from Sase, did he
4 tell you anything else about himself, or how it was that he was captured
5 and brought to Srebrenica? Do you recall?
6 A. Yes, I do. It was actually from someone else that I found out
7 about this. When a person entered the cell and asked him where he had
8 hidden the flour up there at the mine, and then he kept beating him in the
9 chest and as a result of that he died. But I suppose we're going to go
10 back to that later on, and then I'll be able to tell you the story exactly
11 as I remember it.
12 Q. Yes, we will get back to that. Now, you also testified that there
13 were women in the prison.
14 A. Yes, there were women, but they were not held with us.
15 Q. And you -- from the diagram of the national defence building, you
16 showed us on the map, on the sketch, where the women's room was. Could
17 you tell us, how is it that you knew that women were being held there?
18 A. At one point two soldiers came to us and told us that we had to go
19 and bring some firewood for the stove. We somehow managed to get up and
20 walk - I don't know how - and then we brought the firewood back. And it
21 was then that I had occasion to see which room they were in, and see the
22 door. That's what I remember.
23 Q. Were you able to hear them at all, hear them talking or anything
24 else with respect to -- coming from that room?
25 A. In those moments that I was conscious, I could hear a loud noise,
1 whether it was moaning or some painful moans or something like that. I
2 suppose we were beaten more often and more severely than the women;
3 however, they would be the best ones to testify on that.
4 Q. With respect to the cell that you were kept in, you told us -- you
5 testified earlier about the number of men that were there. Could you tell
6 us exactly how many men were there altogether?
7 A. I think there were -- we were 14 altogether.
8 Q. And were you able to -- how were you -- were you sleeping in the
9 cell? Were you able to lie down?
10 A. Yes, we were. We were sleeping on the floor. It was a concrete
11 floor that had some sort of a linoleum on it or something of the sort,
12 that was torn into pieces, and blankets were spread over that. We would
13 lie on them, to the right of the door -- from the door. It was only Mile
14 Trifunovic who actually was there near a chair throughout his captivity.
15 Q. And during the period of time that you and the other prisoners
16 were in this prison, were you given food or water?
17 A. I will describe this to you as well, although there was very
18 little of that. I don't remember how many times we were given food; once
19 or several times, I'm not sure. I don't want to exaggerate. It was
20 difficult for me to know this. I was in very bad shape. I remember this
21 once when a woman, a young woman, came to me and, as I was lying on my
22 back, she simply placed it on my chest. The food consisted of this loaf
23 of bread. Actually, it was just a small piece of bread. And then there
24 was this soup, potato soup or bean soup. I don't know how much I could
25 eat, but I know that it was for 40 days -- it was just once in these 40
1 days that I actually had to go to the toilet.
2 Q. I turn your attention to the beatings that you testified occurred.
3 Could you tell us who beat you and the other prisoners, who it was?
4 A. I don't know their names. I only know about this one name that I
5 heard of. As I've already said, the beatings would start after dusk, at 9
6 or 10 in the evening. When the soldiers would return from the
7 battlefield, they would be driven in a truck, stop between the court and
8 the police station -- in the municipality building. Then they would say,
9 "Let's go and see the Chetniks." And they would beat us in any way they
10 could, with whatever implements they had.
11 I remember this once, when I was conscious, whenever they'd enter
12 the room, they would shout out to Ratko, who was closest to the door, they
13 would say, "Who is Ratko Mladic?" He would then raise two fingers, and
14 then they wouldn't really bother noticing what it was that they used to
15 hit him with, whether it was a rifle butt or a rod or something else. And
16 then they would beat the rest of us as well, severely, all of us who were
17 lying there on the concrete floor.
18 Q. In addition to the rifle butt you mentioned, were you beaten with
19 anything else that you recall?
20 A. Yes. I've told you already about our arrival in the truck. But
21 at the time when they were coming to our cell, I don't know who it was who
22 allowed them to, although there weren't many of them who were beating us,
23 but they would beat us with metal rods, wooden bats. Then I also have
24 scars from knives, metal rods, probably from the baseball bat as well.
25 And you can see all these scars today, you can see them in my face. They
1 would hit me across my teeth, cheekbone, rib cage. They would hit me with
2 the rods in the head, and so on.
3 Q. How long did the beatings last?
4 A. I remember that it would last very long, because many times Ratko
5 would tell me that it -- that the beatings took a long time, because he
6 was not beaten that much. They would beat me most of all. There was one
7 man that they called Budo, Puta, Senad. I don't know whether this was
8 really the name of this particular person. But he would bring in young
9 girls who would -- young women who would laugh. They would set fire to
10 pieces of paper so that they would be able to beat us, because it was in
11 the dark. And my ribs were broken. And this man always pushed me so that
12 I would be lying down on the broken ribs, and then continue beating me.
13 Q. This Budo, did -- do you recall how he was dressed?
14 A. Each time differently. He'd show up often, if he was really Budo,
15 because I don't really know the man. But he would have all manner of
16 clothes, like sometimes a camouflage jacket combined with civilian
17 trousers. Sometimes they would enter with weapons, sometimes without the
18 weapons. Whether they would leave them at the reception or not, I don't
20 Q. And the other people you mentioned who beat you, were they
21 similarly dressed in camouflage, or do you recall if they had civilian
22 clothing on?
23 A. Most of them wore camouflage uniforms, although, as I've already
24 said, some wore a combination of military and civilian clothes. And I
25 hope what I'm saying is accurate, because I wouldn't want for a moment to
1 say something that is not true.
2 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, at this point it would be a good
3 time to take a break.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: It's up to you. If it's convenient for you --
5 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, it is convenient, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: So we'll have a 25-minute break. No, I don't think
7 so. We'll have a 25-minute break, starting from now.
8 --- Recess taken at 12.29 p.m.
9 --- On resuming at 1.05 p.m.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Richardson.
11 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour.
12 Q. Mr. Ivanovic, before we had a break, you were testifying about the
13 beatings that occurred in the prison. You stated that, you testified that
14 your ribs had been injured. Could you tell us how it was, if you recall,
15 when that occurred, and who was beating you at the time? And also if you
16 received any other injuries.
17 A. I can explain everything. The first serious injuries I received
18 was in the reception room where my cheekbone was broken as well as my nose
19 by Dzemo Tihic, when he took us out of the cell and into the reception
21 Q. And when did this occur? How long had you been in this particular
22 prison before this incident?
23 A. I can't say exactly. I reckon that it was after about half the
24 total time I spent in that prison, maybe 17 or 20. But I'm not sure if
25 this really matters.
1 Q. Now, before we get to your other injuries, could you tell us if
2 the cell, the prison, the cell -- the door to the prison was kept locked
3 during the day? And if it was ever opened, could you tell us when that
5 A. It happened every day. I'm not sure if the door was locked or
6 not, because the guards were always there. As for the mistreatment and
7 beatings, this occurred on a daily basis. But I pointed out once, I
8 believe, that most of it happened at night.
9 Q. You also testified that you would hear a truck stop outside your
10 cell, and that you would hear reference to Chetniks. Could you tell us a
11 little bit more about that in relation to the beatings.
12 A. That's true, I've spoken about that. This truck came from
13 somewhere. It would stop between the court building and the town hall.
14 Then you would hear the sound of the truck and people getting off the
15 truck. They would start yelling and shouting, "Let's go and see the
16 Chetniks." I don't think those were all of them coming. Those who came
17 were only those who were inclined to carry out beatings. There weren't
18 really that many of them, but they always somehow came to the fore.
19 Q. So just for clarification, as soon as you heard the truck stop
20 outside, the beatings would occur shortly thereafter by the people who got
21 off the truck?
22 A. That's true. Most of the times it was those people that beat us,
23 but even before then and after then, we were beaten by people who were
24 purportedly guarding us.
25 Q. You also testified that girls would enter the cell. Could you
1 elaborate a little bit more on when this would happen.
2 A. Yes. These young women were brought, most of the times, by the
3 people guarding us. They would set light to small bits of paper, because
4 there was no electricity there, so that they could have enough light to
5 tell our faces. And then they would trample on us and mistreat us. That
6 sort of thing. I'm not sure what else I should tell you about that.
7 Q. These girls, were they Muslim or Serb ethnicity?
8 A. Probably Muslim. I find it very difficult to believe that one of
9 us would come there to beat us. Only this lady called Trifunovic, the
10 child who would come in, probably she had been ordered to spit at us and
11 sometimes hit us with a rod. Svetlana. It's not Snezana as I said
12 before. The name is Svetlana. She's a neighbour of mine.
13 Q. And you believe that she was told to do this.
14 MR. JONES: That's speculation on his part, clearly. That's going
15 to be pure speculation on this witness's part.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: It's the conclusion that he comes to. Maybe it's
17 the case of explaining why he comes to that conclusion. And I suppose
18 there is a simple answer to that.
19 Why do you come to that conclusion? You say "probably she had
20 been ordered to spit at us and sometimes hit us with a rod." Why do you
21 come to that conclusion? Did you hear anyone instructing her to do this,
22 to spit at you and to hit you with a rod?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it was simply enough for me to
24 arrive at that conclusion. I don't believe she would have been doing that
25 of her on accord. She would have no reason to. Why, on earth, would she
1 as a child would walk straight in and start beating us with a rod.
2 MR. JONES: He was simply he was inferring, that was to make that
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Exactly. These are why these are perfectly
5 legitimate questions. Then Obviously you can raise these on cross at any
7 MR. JONES: There shouldn't be invitations to him to speculate.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: But individuals remain individuals, Mr. Jones. I
9 mean ...
10 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour.
11 Q. Now --
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Judge Eser would like to know approximately the
13 age, the approximate age of this girl? At that time, of course.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, her father's name was Nikola
15 Trifunovic. It's a house I pass very often. I know her well. I don't
16 believe what Your Honour has been talking about, that she would be able to
17 do this of her on free will. I find it perfectly obvious that she must
18 have been ordered to do this by someone.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: But to answer my question, I only asked you a very
20 simple question: What was her approximate age at the time? That's all I
21 want to know.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Oh, that. I can only speak to the
23 extent that I knew her, because I had worked abroad a long time, and in
24 Belgrade I never attended any of her birthday parties. But my opinion is
25 that she was about 12 at the time. Perhaps older, perhaps younger. This
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 is my own assessment, as it was at the time, and I shall stick to it.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Did she come from a Muslim family?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. No, from an Orthodox family.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Richardson.
5 MS. RICHARDSON:
6 Q. Mr. Ivanovic, do you know if she was related to Mile Trifunovic,
7 one of the other prisoners?
8 A. Yes, she was Mile Trifunovic's grandchild.
9 Q. During the time that you were beaten, you stated, I think on more
10 than one occasion, that you lost consciousness. Could you tell us what
11 would happen after you lost consciousness, if you recall.
12 A. Yes. I recall very clearly, they would beat us into
13 unconsciousness. Then they would bring cold water and pour it on us, and
14 then you would barely open your eyes and they would start beating us
15 again, until we were entirely unconscious. I'm speaking on my own behalf,
16 of course. I don't think the others fared any better, though.
17 Q. During the beatings, you mentioned that your ribs, as well as
18 your -- I think you mentioned also that your teeth were damaged. Was your
19 nose, or any other part of your body, injured as a result of the beatings?
20 A. Yes. The right side of my ribs, two ribs, were fractured. My
21 teeth were entirely damaged. My nose bone was broken three or four times,
22 and my cheekbone also. You can see it. If I press my finger here, it
23 goes up and down. I have countless scars, knife wounds.
24 Q. After you had been beaten, and the other prisoners, could you tell
25 us what the physical condition of yourself and the other prisoners were?
1 Was there blood?
2 JUDGE AGIUS: He's been telling us this, even -- I didn't stop
3 you, but I think he mentioned already that he had injuries to his ribs,
4 broken ribs; he mentioned already that he had a fractured nose; he is
5 mentioned already that for most of the time, he and the other detainees
6 were covered in blood. Why are you repeating the question?
7 MS. RICHARDSON: I'll go to the next question.
8 Q. Mr. Ivanovic, did there come a time -- I should ask: During the
9 time that you were beaten, were you interrogated by the people who were
10 beating you? Were you questioned during that point?
11 A. I don't remember that. They were beating us. Whether they asked
12 us something or not, I really can't say. I must say, I was semi-conscious
13 most of the time. There were times when they came, one of the soldiers
14 probably, if that's what I should call them, a bearded man. He introduced
15 himself as a soldier from Bratunac. He looked at us once from the door.
16 I turned around, to the extent that I could, and he yelled at me, "Listen,
17 Chetnik, even if it were for the whole of Srebrenica, I would never hit
18 you; therefore, you needn't be afraid of me." That was what he said.
19 Unfortunately, the others were much worse.
20 Q. Did there come a point in time that you were removed from the cell
21 and taken to another room in this building to be questioned?
22 A. Yes. I remember once - I can't say whether it was more than that
23 - they took me to the reception room where they had the soldiers who
24 watched us. I was taken out of the room and taken to the reception room.
25 I recognised Ismet. He was a person I noticed. Also Tihic, Ahmo Tihic,
1 Ismet Odzic, Ahmo Tihic. I found out who the others were later on, and
2 their names. There were five persons there for sure, up to seven. I'm
3 not sure if this was recorded or not, but it's not important.
4 I saw one man, a bearded man, dark. I can't say that I knew Naser
5 Oric, but when we were returned to the cell after this brief
6 interrogation, the soldiers told me, "Did you see our Delija, Naser?"
7 Some of them said Naser, some of them said the boss. I didn't know the
8 man, though, and I can't say that it was that man.
9 Q. What type of questions were you asked when you were taken to this
11 A. I don't remember much. When I came into that room, my left side
12 was totally closed. I was all covered in blood. I do remember that Ahmo
13 or Ismet yelled something along the lines of knowing me well. Why it was
14 like that and why they came, I don't know, but I was not beaten on that
16 Q. Now, you mentioned that you knew a couple of the individuals in
17 the room you had been taken to. Were they soldiers, as far as you know,
18 or were they civilians?
19 A. Yes, those were soldiers who guarded us.
20 Q. What was your physical condition during the period of time that
21 you were in this room?
22 A. I was in a difficult condition. I had things on my body that were
23 broken, and I was worn down. I told you that I only went out once to
24 relieve myself in the 40 days that I was there. I think that should
25 clarify it sufficiently. I'm not sure what else am I to add.
1 Q. Well, were you bleeding at that point?
2 A. I don't remember. I know that I was all covered in blood. I
3 think I did say this once. I'm sorry that I didn't bring the shirts
4 along. My wife later washed it, but you can still see traces of blood,
5 stains on the shirt. I said a number of times, "What are you doing that
6 for? Why are you keeping that?" And then she said, "Well, just leave it
7 where it is."
8 Q. Did any one of the five men you were in the room with comment on
9 your physical condition?
10 A. No, no one. They would just look at me, and I heard that word
11 being spoken, whether by Ahmo or by Ismet. I don't think I ever caused
12 any harm to those people. And I can even say that I really got along well
13 with them, and I think this can be demonstrated by those of us who are
14 still around.
15 Q. Did you learn the identity of anyone else in the room later on,
16 other than Tihic, that you knew from before?
17 A. Yes. I learned later, because he came and went to the hospital
18 and took this man to an exchange, this man named Mandza, whether his first
19 name or last name. I remember Zulfo Tursun. I remember him well. I will
20 tell you more about him later. That's about it.
21 Q. What did you know about Zulfo?
22 A. I don't want to be getting ahead of myself. I didn't know him
23 personally, I must make that clear. But I heard that before the war he
24 had murdered a man in a cafe in Srebrenica, one or two persons of his same
25 ethnicity. He was in prison subsequently, and if you want me to talk
1 about him, that's closer to the exchange already. But I can go through
2 the story if you'd like me to.
3 Q. During the time that you saw him again, and we'll get -- there
4 came a time that you did see Zulfo again, if you can just answer with a
5 yes or no?
6 A. Yes, I did see him a number of times.
7 Q. Now, the men who were in the room, could you tell us if they were
8 dressed in civilian clothing, including the ones that you know, such as
9 Tihic and Odzic? Were they dressed in civilian clothing or military
10 clothing? And please tell us also the man with the beard.
11 A. I really can't say, and I wouldn't like to comment on that. I
12 think I did say that this one man was wearing a camouflage uniform, if I
13 remember correctly, and I believe I do. Some were wearing camouflage
14 uniforms. Whether some were in civilian clothes or not, I didn't exactly
15 take a good look. I was just lying there in front of them. I was like a
16 stone, that's all I was.
17 Q. When you say "lying there," do you mean physically lying on the
18 ground in front of them?
19 A. Yes, that's exactly what I mean. If you mean my time in prison,
20 we were all lying, wallowing on that concrete floor, all wet. We were
21 done in. I'm not sure how else I should put it.
22 Q. With respect to when you were in the room, were you lying because
23 you were unable to stand? Or could you tell us what it was that you were
24 lying on the ground?
25 A. We weren't able to stand up, that's certain. We were just simply
1 done in. That's what I'm telling you.
2 Q. With respect to the man with the beard, could you tell us whether
3 you've ever seen him before? And could you describe him to us. In
4 addition to the beard, could you tell us approximately what age he was and
5 whether he was also in a military uniform, if you recall?
6 A. I've said this before, haven't I? This man, he was very dark. He
7 had a beard. A good looking man, rather young. I think I did say that I
8 saw him again somewhere once, but I can't be sure about this.
9 Q. Did you learn the identity of this man later on?
10 MR. JONES: He's given a clear answer on that -- on this whole
11 matter. He's said that he returned to his cell, the guard said, "Did you
12 see our Naser," or Delija, our boss or something like that, and he said,
13 "I didn't know the man," and "I can't say that it was that man." That
14 would seem to be the end of it, in my submission.
15 MS. RICHARDSON: Well, Your Honour, my question is a very specific
16 one, which is: With respect to the man with the beard, did he learn the
17 identity? Not with respect to the comments made by the soldiers. At any
18 point if I learned the identity; if the answer is no, then fine.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: On what basis are you suggesting that he learned the
21 MS. RICHARDSON: Well, Your Honour, he mentioned that he -- he
22 testified that he saw him again, and I would only ask if he later on
23 learned the identity based on --
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, that dark man that you saw in a room, in the
25 reception room, that you were referred to later by some of the others when
1 they asked you, "That's our Delija, our Naser, did you see him," and you
2 said you didn't know him -- I'll repeat the exact words that you said. "I
3 don't know the name. I can't say that that was the name." What do you
4 know about that?
5 Let's take it bit by bit. At the time had you heard of Naser
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I had, but I didn't know him.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: So you never knew at the time what he looked like.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't know. I believe I said
10 that. I never knew that man.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: So if someone presented you with a person and told
12 you, "This is Naser Oric," you wouldn't have been able to confirm that
13 because you did not know the name.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not even saying that. I did see
15 him on TV several times later, but I can't say something that's just not
16 true. I didn't know him at the time, because had I known him, he would
17 have been very easy for me to identify then.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: So -- and who did you see later on on TV several
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, what I'm saying is: Although I
21 saw him on TV several times, I do not want to add something that I didn't
22 actually know at the time. That's what I'm trying to say.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: But are you telling us that on TV, later on, you saw
24 Naser Oric several times?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. In newspapers too, and on TV.
1 But in person, prior to what we are talking about, I had never known him.
2 And this is why I'm testifying like this --
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, but --
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- what I've just told you.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: -- I need to lead you to a very important question
6 now. At the time that all this was happening, you didn't know the person.
7 You had never seen him, you had not met him, so you didn't know what he
8 looked like. And you stand by that position.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I abide by that. When I --
10 throughout that period of time, in the prison or in the hospital,
11 throughout my captivity, they were saying things like, "This is our
12 Delija, this is Naser, this is the boss." So my idea was always that this
13 must have been the man in the reception room, but that was a later
14 inference that I made.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: And what inference are you talking about? In other
16 words, later on, when you say on newspapers and on TV the image of what
17 was described as Naser Oric, as I take it from you, was that of any
18 importance for you, looking back to your events in the prison and in the
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was quite relevant, or seemed
21 quite relevant to me. But again I must say, at the time that I was
22 captured, and throughout my captivity, I'm trying to hold onto that image
23 that I remember.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: That you've told us already. Forget about the time
25 that you were captured and what was your position then. Later on, when
1 you saw on TV and on newspapers images of what was described as Naser
2 Oric, did that tell you anything with reference to your detention and to
3 the person that you had seen in the reception -- in the reception room on
4 the occasion that you mentioned?
5 Yes, Mr. Jones.
6 MR. JONES: Your Honour, I feel, and I'm sure the witness will
7 feel, that you're inviting him to identify someone he saw only later. It
8 seems to me he's being very honest and very adamant in saying he doesn't
9 want to say something about the person --
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Jones, please don't stop him, because he also
11 said "inference". He referred to an inference which he drew later from
12 watching TV and from looking at newspapers, and I want to know, what was
13 this inference.
14 MR. JONES: We're also talking about Naser Oric. He never said
15 Oric only. He said, "This is Naser."
16 JUDGE AGIUS: No, he mentioned Naser Oric, Mr. Jones. He
17 mentioned Naser several times.
18 MR. JONES: I'll check in LiveNote.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: When you looked at these newspapers and at the TV,
20 and you said that you drew inferences, what inference did you draw?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I arrived at the conclusion later
22 on, when I was looking at the newspapers and watching him on the TV, that
23 that was the person who used to be in the reception room.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Richardson.
25 MS. RICHARDSON:
1 Q. After you left the reception room, did the beatings continue,
2 beatings of yourself and the other prisoners, that is?
3 A. After a while, a silence set in for perhaps an hour or two, and
4 then the situation, as per normal, resumed. There was this person beating
5 us with whatever items came to his hand.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. There are two questions, one from Judge Eser
7 and then one from me.
8 Judge Eser.
9 JUDGE ESER: I just have to find the reference.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. In the meantime, I will ask the
12 In this reception room, was Mandza there as well?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I've said so already. Mandza
14 was in this reception room.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: And did Mandza look similar to the other man, the
16 dark man with the beard? Did they look alike?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. As far as I can remember,
18 Mandza, he did not look like the other man.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Judge Eser.
20 JUDGE ESER: I would like to bring you back to line 79 -- page 79,
21 line 5. And I go back to the event in the interrogation room or in the
22 reception room. And there you told us: "They would just look at me, and
23 I heard that word being spoken, whether by Ahmo or by Ismet. I don't
24 think I ever caused any harm to those people, and I can even say that I
25 got along well with them. And I think this can be demonstrated by those
1 of us who are still around."
2 Now, my question is: Whom did you mean by saying, "I don't think
3 I ever caused any harm to those people"? Did you speak of yourself? And
4 who are those people? Whom did you mean with that?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was just trying to add what I was
6 previously talking about. I was talking about Ahmo and Ismet were saying.
7 He was the one who told me so, and then I just added. This was my
8 comment, saying that I did not do anything to harm these people. That was
9 just in addition to my previous statement. I don't know if it can be
10 struck off, if need be.
11 JUDGE ESER: So this was a sort of -- that was not a quotation of
12 what other people said to you, it was your own reflection on this event,
13 so to say; is that correct?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct. This sentence that
15 I repeated here now was an addition of mine. I just wanted to say that I
16 had done nothing wrong to these people, and this can be confirmed by
17 members of their ethnicity.
18 JUDGE ESER: Thank you.
19 MS. RICHARDSON:
20 Q. And I also have an additional question with respect to your
21 meeting in this room. You were asked a series of questions by these men;
22 do you recall?
23 A. Yes, I do. These people came in, and apart from beating us, they
24 would first address this man Ratko, by asking "Who's Ratko Mladic?" Then
25 he would raise two fingers and then they would beat him, all of them, be
1 it with a rifle, an elbow or a fist or whatever, and then he would fall
3 JUDGE AGIUS: You are repeating.
4 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I think there's a misunderstanding
5 about my question.
6 Q. The room where you were interrogated, where Tihic and Tisanovic
7 and others were present, did they ask you questions in that room, the
8 reception room?
9 A. As I've said, it was more them talking amongst themselves. And
10 then you would have Ratko and Ismet exchanging words. And then after a
11 while, they would just yell, "Take him back to the cell." And then they
12 would take me back there, and after a certain period of time, they would
13 come to beat us.
14 Q. Okay. Did there come a time that you left the prison cell again,
15 that you were taken out of the prison cell to meet with another
17 A. Yes. After a while - whether it was prior to what we've just been
18 talking about or later on, I can't really grasp - two soldiers took me to
19 the municipal building. I don't know whether it was the first or second
20 floor. They took me to a person who was wearing an olive-drab jacket and
21 a beret on his head. And he started interrogating me, addressing me as a
22 Chetnik, saying that I was killing Muslims. And then I said that I
23 wasn't. And then he asked a couple of other questions that I don't
24 remember, and then he asked me to swear on my children and then I did.
25 But then this soldier came and hit me in the head with a knife. My skin
1 broke and there was blood. The men said, "Take him away, but Chetnik, you
2 will start talking because I'll take you to one of the refrigerator
3 cells." I don't know what he meant by "refrigerator cells," but anyway,
4 after that they returned me to the cell.
5 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I have one final question, and I'm
6 looking at the time.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
8 MS. RICHARDSON:
9 Q. Do you know who this man was, the man that you -- that you -- that
10 they took you to see, that the soldiers took you to see?
11 A. I wouldn't be able to tell you who this man was. I just know that
12 he also asked me whether I knew this person by the name of Leskovac,
13 another man by a different name. And he kept asking me about some people,
14 and I kept saying that I didn't know them. After that he hit me with the
15 knife. And I can't remember whether he hit me with the edge or with the
16 blunt side of it, but I can still show you the line, the scar, where he
17 hit me.
18 Q. Well, did he hit you or did the soldier hit you?
19 A. The soldier did, the one who brought me in in the first place.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.
21 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I can end at this point.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Ms. Richardson.
23 Incidentally, Mr. Jones, if you look at page 77, line 25, you will
24 see that when he described the man, "I saw one man, a bearded man, dark.
25 I can't say that I knew Naser Oric. But when he returned ..." So he did
1 mention Naser Oric. And that's not the only exception -- the only
3 MR. JONES: My point was the guards said, "Did you see Naser,"
4 they didn't say did you see not Naser Oric.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: But that's the guards, not him. He knew exactly
6 what person he was being referred to.
7 Anyway, tomorrow, I'm asking you, registrar, please, to consult
8 with the technicians and the interpreters and all the rest of the staff,
9 we need to stop at about between 1:15 and 1:30. The reason is that there
10 is a swearing in of two new ad litem Judges and we need to be present,
11 because it's an official and open ceremony.
12 I wouldn't like to lose as much time as possible. I know that you
13 will not be able to finish tomorrow, and I'm not going to curtail, so you
14 will have all the time you require. So if there is a way to save some
15 time, please try to find it and then let me know tomorrow morning. I
16 don't know if it is possible or not. I know there is a minimum of break
17 time that everyone needs, so I will not curtail that for sure. Perhaps we
18 could have the sittings a little bit longer, in other words, instead of
19 sitting until 10.30, for example, we would sit another quarter of an hour,
20 or another 20 minutes. I don't know, but see what possibilities there
22 Yes, again, I mean, for the record, when I said "I wouldn't like
23 to lose as much time as possible," I'm listed as having said "I would like
24 to lose as much time as possible." That certainly isn't the case, so that
25 goes on the record as well.
1 Thank you very much. We will all meet tomorrow morning.
2 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.48 p.m.,
3 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 25th day of
4 January, 2005, at 9.30 a.m.