1 Wednesday, 26 January 2005
2 [Open session]
3 [The witness entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.07 a.m.
5 [The accused entered court]
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Registrar, could you call the case, please.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Case number
8 IT-03-68-T, the Prosecutor versus Naser Oric.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Registrar, and good morning to
11 Mr. Oric, can you follow the proceedings in a language that you
12 can understand?
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours,
14 distinguished gentlemen. Yes, I can.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I thank you. You may sit down.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Appearances for the Prosecution.
18 MR. WUBBEN: Good morning, Your Honours. My name is Jan Wubben,
19 lead counsel for the Prosecution, together with co-counsel, Ms. Joanne
20 Richardson, and our case manager, Ms. Donnica Henry-Frijlink.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
22 MR. WUBBEN: And also good morning to the Defence team. In
23 addition, Your Honours, this morning, this team will be enforced by a
24 lawyer, Mr. Jose Doria with a view to the new coming witnesses, and also
25 co-counsel Mr. Gramsci Di Fazio.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. And good morning to your team.
2 Appearances for the Defence.
3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. I'm
4 Vasvija Vidovic, with Mr. John Jones, appearing on behalf of Mr. Naser
5 Oric. With us are our legal assistant, Ms. Jasmina Cosic, as well as our
6 case manager, Mr. Geoff Roberts.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. I take it there are no -- and good
8 morning to you and your team.
9 I take it there are no preliminaries?
10 MR. WUBBEN: No, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. So we can proceed and conclude with the
12 cross-examination of the witness, and then start with the next witness.
13 MR. JONES: Yes, thank you, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
15 MR. JONES: And may I say thank you for accommodating our request
16 this morning that our client's family be permitted to follow from the
17 public gallery, the minor member of his family.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: That includes the minor, his son, because that
19 requires my signature. I haven't signed it as yet, but I will --
20 MR. JONES: It will be done during the break, I understand.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: -- I will sign the document during the break because
22 it was not available. Let's proceed.
23 MR. JONES: Yes.
24 WITNESS: Ilija Ivanovic [resumed]
25 [Witness answered through interpreter]
1 Cross-examined by Mr. Jones: Continued
2 Q. Good morning, Mr. Ivanovic.
3 A. Good morning.
4 Q. We want to make a lot of progress today and finish with your
5 testimony today, and I'm sure you want to go back to Bajina Basta and
6 Cosici as soon as possible. So if you could please listen very carefully
7 to my questions and just provide short answers, wherever possible, that
8 would be appreciated.
9 A. Very well.
10 Q. Now, when we stopped yesterday, I was asking you about Mehmedalija
11 Tihic, and you confirmed that he had been injured on the road to Kolari.
12 Now, my question is: You were asked about Mehmedalija Tihic when you were
13 in Srebrenica as well, weren't you?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And you told the people who asked you about Mehmedalija what
16 you've told us, in other words, that he had been taken to receive
17 treatment in Skelani or Bajina Basta.
18 A. Yes. That was exactly what I said, and that was true. I think
19 it's reflected in my statement; namely, that in a location between Cosici
20 and Kolari, Mehmedalija Tihic stepped on a land-mine and was as a result
21 severely wounded. The people who were around took him away and
22 transferred him to Skelani, and probably later to Bajina Basta, to receive
23 treatment. I am not entirely certain about this, but I think that's what
24 I stated.
25 Q. Okay. So that occurred before the 16th of January, 1993,
1 Mehmedalija Tihic wounding himself.
2 A. Yes. I think that's how it is.
3 Q. Now, I asked you yesterday whether the Muslims who had left your
4 area tried to return. Isn't that what happened to Mehmedalija Tihic, that
5 he was trying to return to his home when he got blown up in a land-mine?
6 A. I disagree with you. The reason is, those who wanted to leave
7 their homes were escorted to Serbia, and I'm sure they're all alive and
8 well where they are. Tihic was a renegade. He ran to the woods. He was
9 part of the Muslim army. I think he was performing some sort of a check,
10 or rather that's at least my opinion.
11 Q. The point I'm getting at is this: You've repeatedly said over the
12 last couple of days how you and other Serbs were simply defending your
13 homes in Cosici. Weren't you, in fact, also trying to stop Muslims from
14 getting to their homes, using land-mines, mortars, and other weapons to do
16 A. No, never. I can proudly state, yet again, that the only thing we
17 did was guard our village. Tihic never passed our village; he didn't need
18 to pass our village on his way home. The road led to Skelani, Bratunac,
19 and the other villages. I'm not sure why he would have been coming from
20 the direction of Kolari to begin with.
21 Q. Now, leaving that subject to one side, I need to go back briefly
22 to something we touched on yesterday, and on Monday, when you told us that
23 one reason why you thought that the Muslims had superior weapons to you
24 was because they didn't take your cousin's rifle when he was killed. And
25 my question is: Do I understand from that that you would usually expect
1 attackers to take weapons from a dead enemy?
2 A. I'm not sure you're getting my point. If you say that the Muslims
3 were in the woods and that they were making a fire in order to warm
4 themselves up - they didn't have a roof over their heads - who would have
5 brought the weapons to the Muslims? A stork perhaps. Who would have
6 given them the weapons, the means to attack my village.
7 Q. My question was a different one. It seemed that when you were
8 saying that your cousin's rifle was not taken by the Muslims, that you
9 were surprised by that, and so my question was: Would you normally expect
10 weapons to be taken from a dead soldier or village guard after he had been
12 A. I believe I fully understand your question. But them getting
13 weapons the way you're putting it to me, with some poles, I have no idea.
14 They must have had weapons previously. As to what they actually picked up
15 after he had been killed, that's a different thing altogether.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: I think you're either trying to avoid answering the
17 question, or you have not understood the question.
18 I'm going to put the question very simply: Was it -- it's being
19 put to you that it maybe was the practice that when someone got killed and
20 laid still with his weapon by his side, the attackers would take away the
21 weapon. We're not talking of just your cousin, we're talking of every
22 other -- was it a practice to take away the weapon as well?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That was the practice.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Next question, please.
2 MR. JONES: Just one more question on that subject.
3 Q. Was that something that you had seen before in combat operations
4 before the 16th of January, 1993, weapons being taken from the dead?
5 A. I had seen nothing like that, the seizing of weapons. I did give
6 you one example, the weapon I took from my cousin, for the simple reason
7 that the weapon that was on him was much better than the one I had.
8 Q. Okay. You told us on Monday that when your village was attacked
9 you were "entirely surrounded." Now, that's not true, is it, because a
10 way was left towards Skelani, and you drew that route for us on the map.
11 A. I'm not sure what you're trying to do. Are you trying to convince
12 me that the village was not surrounded? My belief was that it would be
13 surrounded, but it was, in fact, entirely surrounded on all sides. All
14 the evidence you have demonstrates that they were even over there, at the
15 bridge in Skelani, where they were killing the young as well as civilians.
16 Q. My point was this: If you were entirely surrounded, how did
17 civilians evacuate to Skelani?
18 A. It's really not for me to explain. There are people who died
19 along the way, who were killed along the way, and I myself was captured.
20 Everything that you're telling me now, everything you tried to tell me
21 yesterday, you're not trying to convince me that I don't know the location
22 of Maltasi. I had to pass through Maltasi four years in order to get to
23 school. That was a much shorter route for me to take than down the river
24 and across Arapovici and then on to Iljese [phoen].
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Next question, Mr. Jones.
1 MR. JONES:
2 Q. Mr. Ivanovic, I'm not trying to convince you of anything --
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Don't argue with the witness, Mr. Jones. Please,
4 next question.
5 MR. JONES: I'm not arguing, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Precisely why I told you next question.
7 MR. JONES: Yes, I'm not arguing. It's so the witness understands
8 that I'm not trying to convince him of anything.
9 Q. Now, you went to Maltaska Gradina; so in other words, you went up
10 a hill, didn't you, when you were withdrawing.
11 A. No. No. You're trying to sidetrack me, aren't you?
12 Q. Isn't Maltaska --
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ivanovic, don't let me turn on you and censure
14 you. I warned you yesterday, Mr. Jones here is doing his duty. If you
15 were the accused, he would be defending you. So please answer his
16 questions with a yes or no, where appropriate, and with an explanation
17 where you feel it is necessary, but without any suggestions like the ones
18 you have been making since we started the sitting this morning. You are
19 being very aggressive this morning, and I won't let you remain so. I
20 won't let you continue to be aggressive with the lawyer who is doing his
21 duty here. He is asking you simple questions which are not provocative in
22 the way, which are legitimate questions, and which you need to answer. I
23 hope you have understood me.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Fair enough. My apologies, Your
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Jones.
2 MR. JONES:
3 Q. Is Maltaska Gradina a hill?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. So when you went up that hill, you were more visible and
6 vulnerable than when you were done in the valley; would you agree?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Isn't the reason why you went up the hill to Maltaska Gradina
9 because you knew that there was a unit up there, a military unit?
10 A. Will you please repeat the question?
11 Q. Isn't the reason you went up Maltaska Gradina because there was
12 another unit there, and you were trying to join up with them?
13 A. The reason was that I was heading in the direction of that unit.
14 It was for my own personal safety.
15 Q. Yes. But just to establish, wasn't that unit a special unit of
16 the Yugoslav army; in fact, the Uzice Corps, which was up in Maltaska
18 A. No. As far as I know, it was just a village guard.
19 Q. Are you aware that that village guard, as you call it, had 5.56
20 millimetre American machine-guns and binoculars fitted with night-vision
21 and a lot of special equipment not typical of a village guard? Were you
22 aware of that?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Okay. I'm going to ask you now about some prior statements which
25 you gave about these events.
1 You gave a statement, firstly, on the 23rd of February, 1993, to
2 the Serb authorities, didn't you?
3 A. I really can't say.
4 MR. JONES: We'll pass up, with the usher's assistance, copies of
5 the 1993 statement in English and B/C/S. Just for the record, the B/C/S
6 ERN is 02113343 to 02113345, and the English is the same.
7 Q. Mr. Ivanovic, I'm going to ask you to look at this document, and
8 there are a lot of details here which you've already confirmed for us, so
9 I'm going to ask you to please confirm with a simple yes or no the
10 following facts:
11 First, after your release from custody, you were married but had
12 no children and were living in Bajina Basta; is that true?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And at that time, was your address Rodoljub Colakovic number 8?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Now, I'll ask you to look at the first two paragraphs of that
17 statement, starting at the beginning and ending with the sentence "I
18 dropped the bomb and then I could not find it among leaves," which is a
19 detail which you agreed yesterday. If you just glance at the first two
20 paragraphs. I'll give you a minute or two just to read the first two
22 A. I understand that I did, indeed, say everything you just told me,
23 the way you've put it to me, and it sounds accurate to me.
24 Q. At the time of this interview, the 23rd of February, 1993, you're
25 the only person in the world, I imagine, who knew that you had dropped
1 your grenade and couldn't find it among the leaves; would you agree with
3 A. If I remember well, what I said is that I dropped it as I was
4 trying to activate the grenade that my cousin had held.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't think you have understood the question. The
6 question that was put to you was a very simple one, again. It's being put
7 to you that until you told these people who were interrogating you about
8 losing your grenade, dropping it and then you couldn't find it, no one
9 except you knew about this incident, about how you lost your hand grenade
10 and you couldn't find it. It's only you who knew it, no one else could
11 know it. Because the other person who was with you, in the meantime, was
12 blown up, so there was no one else who could have possibly known this
14 THE WITNESS: Da.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Mr. Jones.
16 MR. JONES: I'll ask that this be given an exhibit number.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Of course. We're talking of a statement allegedly
18 given by the witness on the 23rd of February of 1993 to the representative
19 of --
20 MR. JONES: It's the Republika Srpska ministry --
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Republika Srpska Ministry of the Interior,
22 Public Security Station Skelani. The B/C/S version consists of three
23 pages, starting with ERN 02113343 and ending with 02113345, and the
24 corresponding English version, which consists of four pages.
25 This document is being tendered and received and admitted as
1 Defence Exhibit D?
2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, D169.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: 169, all right, thank you.
4 MR. JONES:
5 Q. Just a few more questions for now, Mr. Ivanovic, on this document.
6 Is it right that the hamlets of Dvizovici and Kolari were on the
7 other side of the hill from Maltasi; is that true?
8 A. I don't think it's on the other side of the hill, Kolari
9 specifically. I think they lie on the same plain, so to speak, in
10 relation to Cosici and not on the other side of the hill.
11 Q. Do you know Mitar Nikolic from Kalamanci?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Do you know of a water mill belonging to Milan Nadvizovici, Kolari
15 A. I do know Milan from Kolari, down by the river, the river that
16 runs past my village, if that's the water mill you have in mind.
17 Q. Yes. So he has a water mill, Milan.
18 A. Yes. There was just one family there, and they lived in the water
20 Q. Thank you. Now, do you remember saying that the commander of the
21 prison where you were kept was a man called Zele?
22 A. No, I never said that.
23 Q. Do you remember a man called Zele?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Do you remember a man who had only one arm, was missing part of --
1 one of his arms?
2 A. No. I never saw a man like that.
3 Q. Do you remember telling a story which we see on the second page of
4 this document, and I'll read into the record, it's ERN 02113344 --
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, incidentally, while you're reading from this
6 document, I'm noticing, Mr. Jones, and whoever can check from the
7 Prosecution side, that apart from these three pages that were just -- that
8 we've just admitted into evidence, being the alleged statement of the
9 accused mentioned before, and starting with ERN 0343 and ending 345, at
10 least I have also an identical copy of the same statement. To be honest
11 with you, I haven't gone through it in great detail, but I don't see any
12 noticeable differences. In fact, I think it is identical. But it has a
13 different ERN number, and it is basically a continuation of the previous
14 one. It starts with 346 and ends with 348. Is there an explanation for
16 MR. JONES: I don't have a copy of that.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm sorry to have interrupted you.
18 MR. JONES: No, Your Honour, not at all. Perhaps we could have a
19 copy of that at some stage, and we can see what it's about.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: I can make it available. Perhaps -- I'm sure that
21 in your records, Ms. Richardson --
22 MS. RICHARDSON: I apologise, Your Honour, I was speaking with the
23 case manager.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm sure if you look at the ERN number 02113346 to
25 3348, you should establish whether we're talking of the same document or
1 not, and in that case, why we have two photocopies of the same document
2 with two different -- with two different ERN references.
3 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, we will check on that immediately.
4 And I also, looking at this statement, I don't see Mr. Ivanovic's
5 signature at the bottom. But we'll see what the last three pages are. It
6 appears as though these -- someone took the statement from him, or
7 someone --
8 JUDGE AGIUS: But let's not make comments. I just asked for
9 verification of why do we have a photocopy -- two photocopies of the same
10 document with two different reference numbers.
11 MS. RICHARDSON: We'll look into it, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: That's all. Because if there is a difference, then,
13 of course, maybe Mr. Jones would like to tender the other copy as well. I
14 don't know. It's up to you.
15 MR. JONES: We can look at it over the break.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.
17 MR. JONES:
18 Q. Now, Mr. Ivanovic, do you remember telling a story, which we see
19 on the second page of that statement, and I'll quote: "After an exchange
20 took place for their nine dead and one alive man, this person stated that
21 they had tortured him in Bratunac, that he had eaten oversalted pork, that
22 he had been in mud up to his knees, they had cut his ears with a knife,
23 that they had singed his body with a hot iron and made him to eat mud."
24 There's a similar story in your 2002 statement. Do you remember
25 that, that there was an exchange, that a Muslim came from Bratunac, he
1 told stories, whether true or not, about his treatment? Do you remember
2 that story? Do you remember that happening?
3 A. No, this isn't true. Some of the statements contained therein are
4 true, but 90 per cent of it isn't. And, if you'll allow me, I'll explain
5 it to you.
6 Q. Well, let's take it one step at a time. Was there an exchange,
7 and did a Muslim come back from Bratunac, i.e., having been held by the
8 Serbs, and tell stories about how he had been mistreated?
9 A. Yes. A young man was exchanged perhaps at the time when some Serb
10 women were supposed to be exchanged. This young man was exchanged at
11 Skelani. I heard that he actually originally came from Bratunac and was
12 exchanged in Skelani for the women that I've already mentioned, and some
13 other men.
14 Q. And what sort of statements did he make, whether they're true or
15 not, about how he had been treated?
16 A. A lot of it I mentioned myself. When he was brought to the cell
17 where I was held, he started explaining in front of the guards there how
18 the Serbs had tortured him in Srebrenica, that he stood in water up to his
19 knees, that he was forced to eat oversalted food and other -- and was
20 suffering other types of torture. At that point, as I've said -- if I may
21 explain, can I?
22 Q. Just one detail. You said the Serbs had tortured him in
23 Srebrenica. Did you mean to say Srebrenica or did you mean to say
25 A. I've never said that. I've explained how it was that it came
1 about for him to be exchanged for the women and a few men in -- from
3 Q. Mr. Ivanovic, it's just to correct something in the transcript.
4 It says that this man said how the Serbs had tortured him in Srebrenica.
5 Did he say how the Serbs had tortured him in Srebrenica or how the Serbs
6 had tortured him in Bratunac? What did he say?
7 A. He said that he was tortured in Bratunac, of course, not in
9 Q. Thank you. Now, going back to this statement, it's written
10 here: "After this statement by this man from Bratunac, 'prison became
11 hell for us.'"
12 My question is: Is it right that the treatment which you received
13 became a lot worse after this man came from Bratunac, after this exchange?
14 A. Yes, much worse.
15 Q. So, in other words, the treatment which you received was not
16 exactly the same the whole time you were in Srebrenica. It became worse
17 after a certain point.
18 A. I was never really able to distinguish whether the times were
19 easier or harder for us initially or at a later stage, except, of course,
20 for the part that I spent at the hospital.
21 Q. Now, this exchange, when this man came from Bratunac, can you
22 estimate roughly when it was? Would it have been around, I'm suggesting,
23 the 6th of February, 1993, i.e., 10 days or so after you arrived in the
24 prison, the second prison?
25 A. I was never able to date it precisely, but I always said, and I
1 think this is contained in this record, that it must have been halfway
2 through my time in the prison.
3 Q. Now, a further couple of matters with this statement, but the
4 question I'm going to ask you I want to preface by going back to Milomir
5 Djukic in the hospital. And you told us how Milomir Djukic, at one point,
6 was standing at the window, looking across to the PTT building, and he
7 said, "Look, Naser" or "Naser Oric is leaving with five or six of his
8 men." You told us that yesterday.
9 A. Yes, that's correct. And that's how I put it, I believe, and I've
10 heard it from him.
11 Q. Yes. Now, if you could look at the last page of that document in
12 front of you, and it's page 3 for us, 02113345, there you describe
13 how "the main liaison centre was located in the post office across the
14 street from the hospital." And then if you can see that in the statement,
15 [B/C/S spoken]." Do you see that near the top? Check?
16 A. Yes, I see it.
17 Q. Now, in the next sentence you say: "Naser is escorted by his men,
18 about four or five policemen. He wears a white leather jacket with dark
19 stains on certain parts."
20 And my question is: That refers, doesn't it, to this incident
21 you've described of Mr. Djukic seeing the post office and describing that
22 scene; do you agree?
23 A. I wouldn't agree with a description of his clothing. I know what
24 I said, and I stick to that. At no point in time was I able to actually
25 stand up or sit upright in bed and look out the window. I merely conveyed
1 to you what Djukic told me.
2 Q. It's simply to make this point: That in the statement, when you
3 say that Naser is escorted by his men, about four to five policemen, that
4 was referring to a sighting of Naser Oric from the hospital leaving the
5 post office.
6 A. Yes. If you want me to explain, I can, I mean what he told me.
7 But at no point in time that I say that I ever saw him myself, because I
8 was not able to get up.
9 Q. Yes, that's fine. That's completely accepted. My point is this:
10 That looking at your 1993 statement, apart from this mention of Naser Oric
11 as seen from the hospital, you never state, do you, that you saw Naser
12 Oric in the prison, in this statement.
13 A. I did not know him in person. I told you that those were my
14 assumptions in the prison based on what I heard from other people, and I
15 believe I never maintained otherwise in relation to my testimony about the
17 Q. Yes, that's fine. Now, in that statement, you also said that
18 Muslims were planning to attack Bratunac or Ljubovija "unless they
19 received some help and food." My question is: Did you understand that at
20 the time the Serbs in Bratunac were blocking food from entering the
22 A. I was not aware of any such thing, nor was I able to state any
23 such thing, of me knowing that somebody was planning to attack Bratunac.
24 Q. We're dealing with the food situation. Did you not hear at any
25 time that there was a food crisis in Srebrenica, and that that was
1 possibly why the food that you received was so terrible, because there was
2 very little available?
3 A. Yes, and this was quite obvious.
4 Q. Now, finally, on the last page of this statement, there are a
5 number of details of an intelligence nature. I'm going to put each one to
6 you and see whether you remember saying it or whether you agree.
7 Firstly, that at that time, one kilogramme of tobacco cost -- it
8 says, "BM 1.000," perhaps that's -- well, do you remember how much a kilo
9 of tobacco cost?
10 A. I myself could not know this. I heard this from soldiers who were
11 shouting out after Ahmo Tihic had tobacco with him, and I heard that they
12 basically mostly smoked raspberry leaves.
13 Q. Do you remember that Monday was market day at Srebrenica?
14 A. I assure you I don't know.
15 Q. But do you remember that the kitchen, or a kitchen, was in the
16 basement of the department store? In fact, I think you mentioned the
17 department store, on Monday, being across from the SUP. Do you remember
18 that detail?
19 A. I never made any statements about the kitchen. I never saw it.
20 Q. Were you aware that there was a journalist in Srebrenica from
21 Germany and that he had been wounded in the arm?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Do you remember Dr. Ilijaz from the hospital?
24 A. No. And this is precisely what I stated. If I may expand my
25 answer a bit. I would have wished to have known some of them, because
1 they were so kind to us, at least for the duration of my stay at the
3 Q. Do you remember that one of them had come from Tuzla into
4 Srebrenica, one of the doctors?
5 A. I don't remember. As I've said, I don't remember these people.
6 But I don't believe that I ever said anything bad about them.
7 Q. It's not suggested that you did. On the first page of that
8 statement, it appears you gave some information about Marko being called
9 Mico. Do you remember a Marko?
10 A. I do remember Marko. I know that he got killed on that bridge. I
11 did not know him in person, or anything else about him.
12 Q. And Kano, do you remember someone called Kano? My apologies,
14 A. I don't know. If you mean Cane, many people are called by their
15 name, and perhaps you have a totally different person in mind. Perhaps if
16 you could tell me what this person did before the war, then I might be
17 able to tell you something about him.
18 Q. That's all right. For the moment I've finished with this
19 statement, and we can put it aside.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Judge Eser.
21 JUDGE ESER: I would have a question with regard to the statement.
22 Mr. Ivanovic, you have been captured the 16th of January; is that
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct.
25 JUDGE ESER: And you have been exchanged on the 26th of February;
1 is that correct?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct.
3 JUDGE ESER: Now, the statement you have been asked for by the
4 Defence, it's stated from the 23rd of February. That means that it was
5 taken or made before you were exchanged. Do you remember that you made a
6 statement to some people of Republika Srpska before you had been
8 MR. JONES: In fact, Your Honour, may I, just before the witness
9 answers, there's another date as well which appears, on the 27th of June,
10 1993, a prisoner exchange took place. It may be that the person who put
11 this together was clumsy about the dates. I certainly wouldn't want this
12 witness to be under the impression that this statement suggests he was
13 interviewed before he was exchanged. It's clearly an error, a typing
15 JUDGE ESER: But I think it should be made clear.
16 MR. JONES: Well, Your Honour, I've asked -- I've gone to some
17 considerable length, and in fact I cut the exercise short, to establish
18 details which only this witness can know, a very painstaking process, I
19 might say. And if Your Honour's purpose is to shed doubt on this document
20 by virtue of a typing error, I hardly think that's unfair to the Defence.
21 I would note that these questions are never put to the Prosecution; they
22 only seem to be directed at us.
23 JUDGE ESER: No, I was just wondering how it can happen that the
24 statement said he was exchanged at the 26th of February and the statement
25 is dated on the 23rd of February.
1 MR. JONES: It's a typing error.
2 JUDGE ESER: I wasn't aware of the 27th of June.
3 MR. JONES: My suggestion is it's a typing error, and I don't
4 think this witness can help with that.
5 JUDGE ESER: Okay. Another question.
6 Does the witness -- a couple of minutes ago, when you have been
7 asked with regard to what happened -- what you had been told by one of the
8 other prisoners, you told us that 90 per cent of this statement is not
9 true. Now, what did you refer to? Did you refer to the whole statement
10 which you had allegedly made, or did you refer to the statement made by
11 the other prisoner?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As regards the statement, a lot of
13 what the person had said was true. But I believe in my statement that I
14 gave, I explained rather well how it all went, and what this person said
15 upon his arrival to the prison.
16 JUDGE ESER: Now, do I have to understand your testimony this
17 morning that 90 per cent of this statement is not true, and you want to go
18 on to explain why it is not true?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, exactly. I wanted to explain
20 the matter in my own words, because I don't believe I myself could have
21 stated it that way. Perhaps somebody has made additions of their own.
22 Perhaps someone -- if someone was adding anything to this statement of
23 mine at a later stage, I, of course, would not be aware of that.
24 MR. JONES: I feel I should pursue some further questions, then,
25 about this statement. A lot of the details have been confirmed by the
1 witness, and it seems I should go ahead and confirm further details.
2 JUDGE ESER: Okay.
3 MR. JONES:
4 Q. Do you know a Vasiljevic, who people in Srebrenica asked you
5 about, as being some sort of militia commander?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Do you know Vasiljevic? My apologies, I'll withdraw that. It's
8 not so much a question of whether you were asked about him. But have you
9 ever heard of a commander Vasiljevic?
10 A. I really don't know.
11 Q. Do you remember being asked about Buko or Buco committing -- Buco,
12 committing robberies around Srebrenica?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Finally, there's a reference to a Pira or Piro, who I think you
15 mentioned in relation to your exchange. So do you know who he is?
16 A. Yes, I do. I know him well.
17 Q. Can you tell us what his role is, or what his role was at that
18 time, who he was and what he did, any details about him?
19 A. To tell you frankly, he never came to my village. What he was
20 doing in Skelani, I really don't know. I only know about him coming to my
22 Q. You told us that you know him well, so surely it wasn't just on
23 that one occasion that you saw Piro.
24 A. I used to see him earlier on, because Piro, the one I know, if we
25 have the same person in mind, his mother worked at the school that I
1 frequented. He has a twin brother. And there's no reason for me not to
2 know him.
3 Q. What's his full name, if you know?
4 A. Branislav Gligic.
5 Q. Yesterday you told us that Branislav Gligic was not Piro and that
6 he was not at the exchange.
7 A. I don't know, I really don't remember that.
8 Q. We can come back to that. Now, do you recall making a statement
9 in September 1994 about these events?
10 A. I wouldn't be able to tell you. Perhaps I was undergoing
11 treatment in that period of time. Perhaps somebody was asking me
12 questions and then putting them down on a piece of paper, but I'm not
13 aware of that.
14 Q. We'll pass up copies so that you can have a look, with the usher's
16 MR. JONES: And, for the record, the English ERN is 03092377 to
17 03092381, and the B/C/S -- one moment, please. The B/C/S is 00652255 to
19 Q. If you could look at that, Mr. Ivanovic, do you agree firstly that
20 that's your signature at the foot of each page?
21 A. That's what my signature should look like, yes.
22 Q. And I think you can probably confirm the following with a simple
23 yes: Isn't it right that you trained to be a plumber in Belgrade, that
24 you took up employment in the Prajd Montaza enterprise in Belgrade, and
25 that you were on a job in Tivat in Montenegro when the war started. Can
1 you confirm all those details?
2 A. Yes, I can. It's not that I was offered the job, I had already
3 been working on that post for ten years.
4 Q. Is your wife Nada Jevtic from the village of Bozici?
5 A. Yes, she is.
6 Q. And on the 16th of September, 1994, were you still living at the
7 same address, Rodoljub Colakovica number 8?
8 A. Well, yes, I lived there, but I also went to see my mother and
9 father at Cosici. But actually it wasn't really my place of residence,
10 because I did not really have a house of my own. I just had a part of my
11 brother's house for myself.
12 Q. Now, looking at this document, do you accept that this is your
13 statement, the statement which you gave?
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's put it directly. Have you seen this document
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: So I think in all fairness we have to give him an
18 opportunity to go through it, Mr. Jones, before he can answer the question
19 in a reliable manner.
20 MR. JONES: Yes. Can I make a practical suggestion, in lieu of
21 saving time, that if I ask for an exhibit number for this statement now, I
22 can then ask some other questions, and then perhaps during the break the
23 witness can look at the statement. I don't know if that can be done.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: And perhaps I can add to that. Will you be also
25 making use of other statements that we have?
1 MR. JONES: Yes, one final --
2 JUDGE AGIUS: So what I suggest is that you ask the basic
3 questions that you can proceed with and not requiring the witness knowing
4 the details of these statements, and then we'll have the break and make
5 them available to him so that at least he will have read them before he
6 can answer further questions from you.
7 MR. JONES: Yes.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. At any time we can have a break. I mean, we
9 are not bound by the 10.30 time.
10 MR. JONES: My only concern is timing, and the Prosecution were
11 more than six hours, as I mentioned, and I'm --
12 JUDGE AGIUS: I will not restrict. You don't have to worry about
13 that, Mr. Jones.
14 MR. JONES: Okay.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: The only thing you need to worry about is what we're
16 worrying about; namely, that I wouldn't like to allow questions to be put
17 to the witness on the contents of this and other statements which he has
18 never seen before.
19 MR. JONES: Certainly, Your Honour. I share that concern.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Judge Eser.
21 JUDGE ESER: And in addition, I would like to ask the witness,
22 when you read this statement during the break, that you in particular also
23 read the last paragraph in the statement where it is said that this
24 statement was dictated aloud for the record, that "everything I stated was
25 entered into it," and that you did not wish to read the record, that you
1 also take notice of this statement at the end of your statement.
2 MR. JONES: Your Honour, may I just say, with the utmost respect
3 and some regret, that I know Your Honours wouldn't want to be seen to be
4 prosecuting this case. If Your Honour is inviting the witness already to
5 take note of a point which might provide him with a means of escaping from
6 his statement which he may not want to admit is his own, then I think this
7 is unfair to the Defence. I'm sure these are points the Prosecution can
8 take in re-examination.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't think it can be taken that way, Mr. Jones.
10 It is obvious that we are drawing the attention to a part of the statement
11 on which there will be a question, and I think we can leave it at that.
12 MR. JONES: Can I just that a Defence exhibit number be given.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. We'll start with the alleged statement of the
14 witness in B/C/S, consisting of seven pages, starting with ERN 00652255
15 and ending with 00652261, and the corresponding English translation of the
16 same, consisting of five pages, starting with ERN 03092377 and ending with
18 MR. JONES: Yes.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: And the other statements that you would like to
20 tender, Mr. Jones?
21 MR. JONES: Yes, it's an October 1994 statement, and the ERN in
22 English is - I think it's the same as the B/C/S - 00652238 to 00652240.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Now, the first one that we have just referred to
24 will be marked as Exhibit D170, and the one I am going to give the details
25 of now will be -- is being tendered, received and admitted and marked
1 as D171. This is a statement alleged to have been made by the witness,
2 consisting, in the B/C/S version, of three pages, starting with ERN
3 00652238 up to 00652240, and the corresponding English translation of the
4 same, consisting also of three pages, with what appears to be the same ERN
5 number. This is a statement which purportedly was given by the witness on
6 October the 16th, 1994, to the main judge of the court in Zvornik -- in
8 MR. JONES: Thank you, Your Honour.
9 Q. Now, Mr. Ivanovic, as you've, no doubt, followed, you'll have an
10 opportunity to see these statements over the break, so for now I'll just
11 put a couple of points to you.
12 Firstly, with respect to the statement dated September 1994, I put
13 it to you that no where in that statement does the name Naser Oric appear,
14 anywhere. That's something which he can't answer now.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: I think he can't answer that now. Unless he's given
16 an opportunity to read this statement, he's not in a position --
17 MR. JONES: We can take a break now then, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Richardson.
19 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I was going to make that exact
20 point that you just said.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I think we can safely have a break now rather
22 than later. We'll give him the opportunity to -- do you want him also to
23 have available the statement he gave to the Prosecution?
24 MR. JONES: No, that's not necessary.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So, Mr. Ivanovic, I am giving
1 instructions to the staff to make available to you the copy of these two
2 statements. Please read them carefully, because you are going to be asked
3 questions by Mr. Jones later, and perhaps also by us. Thank you.
4 We'll have a 25-minute break.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
6 --- Recess taken at 10.01 a.m.
7 --- On resuming at 10.34 a.m.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, we can proceed. I want to make sure, before we
9 proceed, Mr. Ivanovic, that these documents were handed to you, and that
10 you had an opportunity to go through them during the break.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.
13 Yes, Mr. Jones.
14 MR. JONES: Thank you.
15 Q. Mr. Ivanovic, let's start with the September 1994 statement, D170.
16 It was pointed out to you by His Honour, Judge Eser, before the break that
17 in the last paragraph, it stated that the statement was dictated aloud for
18 the record, "everything I stated was entered into it." Isn't it right
19 that this statement was read to you so that you had an opportunity to
20 correct anything which was wrong or to add anything which you felt should
21 be added?
22 A. I must say that I really can't remember this, although maybe up to
23 90 per cent of what it says in here is precisely what I experienced. But
24 in one of these paragraphs, for example, there is a reference to Mico's
25 last name, which I, in fact, never knew. I didn't even have his name on
1 that list.
2 Q. All right. Thank you. Now, can you confirm that the name Naser
3 Oric, or even Naser, doesn't appear anywhere in that statement?
4 A. I've read the document and I didn't see that the name was noticed.
5 I think I -- my heart was at peace.
6 Q. All right. At the time you gave this statement, you knew who
7 Naser Oric was, didn't you?
8 A. No. I did say that a number of times. I didn't know the man,
10 Q. In fact --
11 JUDGE AGIUS: We need to distinguish between the time when he was
12 in detention and to make sure that he's understood your question, at the
13 time he made this statement.
14 MR. JONES: Yes. Your Honour, I have a number of questions in
15 that regard, if I may follow on.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Let you proceed. Go ahead.
17 MR. JONES: Thank you.
18 Q. Yes, coming to that. Isn't it right that, in fact, you didn't
19 mention Naser Oric because you were never sure - to this day you're not
20 sure - whether you ever saw him in the prison? It's only an inference you
22 A. I said that I could only assume, during my captivity in the cell
23 behind the court building, that was based on what I heard from the
24 soldiers. But I did not know the man personally, nor can I say that I
25 recognised him in the reception room.
1 Q. And today, sitting there where you are, you can't say for sure,
2 can you, whether you ever laid eyes on Naser Oric in the reception room in
3 the prison.
4 A. I've said this, haven't I? I really didn't know him. I have
5 confirmed a number of times that I didn't see him.
6 Q. Yes. Now, leaving that statement to one side for the moment, the
7 September 1994 statement. Looking at the October 1994 statement, do you
8 recognise your signature at the bottom of each page of that statement?
9 A. By looking at the signature, it looks very much like mine. It's
10 nearly identical. Now, as to whether I signed this or not, I really --
11 but I can't challenge the fact that I signed these documents.
12 Q. Do you agree that in that statement, too, there is no mention of
13 Naser Oric, in the October 1994 statement?
14 A. Based on my reading of the document, I don't know whether there is
15 any mention or not. I simply don't remember everything. But as I went
16 through the statement, I gathered that it contains a lot of what I knew.
17 There are a number of details that I'm not sure about. I don't think I
18 spoke about specific names or anything like that at the time, at least to
19 the extent that I remember now.
20 Q. Now, I want to make it very clear that we don't challenge that you
21 were beaten in Srebrenica and that it was a horrible experience; I want
22 that to be a hundred per cent clear. What we do say is that Naser Oric
23 was not in the reception room in the prison. That's what my questions are
24 concerned with. Do you understand that?
25 A. I fully understand what you mean. As I have said, I don't know
1 him personally. I don't know if he was there. But I think I've explained
2 with sufficient clarity what my assumption was based on. But I did say a
3 number of times that I simply didn't know whether it was him or not.
4 Q. Yes. Your assumption was based on what the guards said; correct?
5 A. Yes, precisely.
6 Q. I want to move to another area altogether. Well, not altogether
7 different. Just sticking with the meeting in the reception room, was it
8 right that Ratko Nikolic was there at the same time as you, when you were
9 brought in to see the five men?
10 A. Yes, that's correct. Rade Pejic and Ratko Nikolic were there.
11 Q. Okay. And you were also by His Honour whether the dark-bearded
12 person resembled Mandza, and you said that he didn't. It's right, isn't
13 it, that you knew this person as Mandza, not as Hazim Mrki from Voljevica;
14 would that be correct?
15 A. Your reference to this man from Voljevica, this is something that
16 I never said. I met Mandza, for the most part, during my exchange.
17 Q. In fact, really, I want to make clear that Mrki is another --
18 there's a Mrki Mandza and there's another Mrki.
19 Now, I want to stick with these statements again for a bit longer,
20 and in fact, if you can look again at your 1993 statement. Now that we
21 have them as exhibits, there are some points I want to raise. Do you
22 have --
23 MR. JONES: Does he have the 1993 statement, D169.
24 Q. Sorry, I do have a couple of additional questions about this
25 meeting in the reception room of the prison.
1 Can you estimate roughly when that took place? And if you can't
2 give us a date, perhaps you can tell us how long it was before you went to
3 the hospital, for example.
4 A. I really can't say. The only thing I can remember is that it was
5 halfway through my captivity, and it was around noon, that's what I'm
6 trying to say, the questioning. But I couldn't give you the exact time.
7 Given my condition at the time, I don't think that I can be expected to
8 have known.
9 Q. Certainly not. But would you say it was shortly before you
10 entered the hospital? Was it a matter of days before you went to the
12 A. I really can't say.
13 MR. JONES: Will Your Honours bear with me for a moment. I may be
14 able to save some time by revising some of the questions I was planning.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Take your time, Mr. Jones.
16 [Defence counsel confer]
17 MR. JONES:
18 Q. Yes. You can, in fact, put the statements to one side for a
19 moment. I may not ask you about them again.
20 I'm going to move on to the question of the injuries you sustained
21 in Srebrenica. And I apologise if it's painful to go over it again, but
22 I'm sure you understand that I have to.
23 Now, you told us yesterday that when you arrived at the SUP, right
24 at the beginning of your captivity, before the 40-day period even started,
25 that you were already "less alive than dead," those were the words you
1 used. Do you agree with that?
2 A. I agree with that. My condition was very difficult.
3 Q. All right. Now, if I could take it step by step. First, you were
4 bloody, weren't you, because Mile's grenade detonated, injuring you.
5 A. That's true. But at the moment I was injured, I don't think I was
6 bleeding all the way to Srebrenica, before I was beaten the next time.
7 Q. Was Mile right next to you, or at least a few metres from you,
8 when his grenade detonated?
9 A. I've described that already. He was lying down on his stomach
10 over the ditch, and I was lying down on my back.
11 Q. Wasn't the force of the blast so great that it actually threw
12 Mile's body across the stream where you were?
13 A. I'm not sure I understand what you're saying about this stream,
14 but perhaps I can provide a more practical explanation. It was a ditch,
15 and the distance was, for example, between me where I'm sitting now and
16 the next table. And there was a path or a road, and that was the same
17 distance, roughly, across that ditch, and that's where we were wounded.
18 Q. Okay. My point, really, is this: Is that wasn't that a great
19 explosion that went off, sending shrapnel, that is, pieces of metal, into
20 the side of your face and the right-hand side of your body?
21 A. It was probably like that, if it forced his body across the creek.
22 I was injured myself. This is easy to prove. I simply grew numb
23 instantly, and my arm and my leg were bleeding. As for shrapnel that
24 struck Mile, I think most of the shrapnel actually hit his stomach.
25 Q. And then when you were captured, the soldiers kicked you in the
1 mouth, among other things. Weren't you bleeding from that injury as well?
2 A. I really can't remember clearly. I know that someone struck me in
3 this area, and from behind my back, someone struck me or hit me with a
4 rifle butt, spat at me. I have explained this a number of times. Whether
5 I was bleeding as a result of that, too, at the time, I really can't say.
6 I do know that I was bleeding profusely.
7 Q. And after that, didn't an old lady come out and beat you with
8 metal tongs? And my question is: Didn't she beat you around the head
9 with those tongs?
10 A. The blows that the old lady dealt me in a village -- well, she
11 probably set out to crack me over the head, but she probably missed and
12 struck me in the shoulder instead.
13 Q. And then finally again on the truck you were beaten even more by
14 soldiers with their rifle butts.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. So to summarise, before you even arrived at the SUP, you had
17 shrapnel injury to your head, right arm and leg, soldiers had kicked you
18 in the mouth and hit you with their rifle butt, and an old lady had hit
19 you repeatedly, and then soldiers had hit you. Is it right that you were
20 a bruised and bloody mess when you arrived in Srebrenica on that first
22 A. I've described in detail how everything happened on the lorry, and
23 I told you who was the most assiduous beater. I did tell you that I was
24 slapped, spat at several times, they lit a match, "to see the Chetnik," as
25 they said. And they did.
1 Q. Would it also be right to say that it was mostly local Muslims,
2 local from your area, who mistreated you the worst, and not just on your
3 day of capture but throughout the whole time you were in Srebrenica?
4 A. No, that's not true. That man beat me on the lorry. I didn't
5 know the man, but those were not significant injuries, in a manner of
6 speaking. If those had been the only injuries, I would, indeed, have been
7 a very lucky man. I would even kiss him if I met him now.
8 Q. As I said, not just on that day. When you were in Srebrenica,
9 weren't you mistreated by a Budo who from Dobrak, so in the Skelani area?
10 A. Not in the lorry, nor did I ever say that he was there.
11 Q. Not in the lorry. Later, when you were in prison, didn't someone
12 from Dobrak particularly mistreat you?
13 A. I did point this out a number of times. I heard people talk about
14 this man, referring to him as Budo, Purta or Senad. I couldn't be sure
15 whether he was from Dobrak, but later on, I sort of inferred that this man
16 named Budo was from Dobrak, as I have said. I didn't know this man
17 personally either.
18 Q. Didn't he mostly beat you, Budo? Most of the beating you received
19 was at his hands.
20 A. Well, yes. He was the one who beat me the most, and he brought in
21 little girls who were lighting pieces of paper. There would be a heap of
22 small pieces of paper under the table the next morning. And while he went
23 about beating us, the girls were laughing. That was my explanation on
24 Budo, if you have the same person in mind.
25 Q. Yes, you told us that, and there is no need to repeat anything
1 you've told us already. I'll just be asking you quite short questions,
2 and you can give short answers.
3 Isn't it also right that the injuries to your nose and cheek, the
4 fractures, were inflicted by Dzemo Tihic, who was a former neighbour of
6 A. Yes. As far as I remember, he broke my nose bone. I did say
7 repeatedly that I believe he was the one who broke my cheekbone, too, and
8 then the beating continued several times later.
9 Q. That's why my question was, taking the whole time that you were in
10 captivity, wasn't the worst treatment you received from specific
11 individuals who were from your Skelani area?
12 A. It's hard for me to say. I told you about arriving there in a
13 lorry. There were many people beating me. And what I told you about,
14 Dzemo breaking my bones, I started bleeding at the time. Whether it was
15 at the time, I really can't say. But I do assume that he was the one who
16 broke my nose and cheekbones. I'm telling you this exactly as I
17 experienced it at the time.
18 Q. All right. Now, I want to ask you a little bit about the SUP.
19 When you arrived at the SUP, there were people in civilian police
20 uniforms, weren't there, wearing the old Yugoslav police uniforms?
21 A. That's true. There were people wearing those uniforms too, most
22 of the people that were there, at least to the extent that I was able to
23 see that night.
24 Q. Now, at the SUP you told us you were beaten by Muslim women, men,
25 girls and boys. Is it right, then, that people could just come and go
1 into the SUP, especially at night, that they could just enter at will?
2 A. No, I can't agree with that, that women and children would come in
3 at will and beat us. I believe I provided a detailed description. Some
4 of them did come, but maybe some of the policemen were there too. What I
5 know about the very early hours, when that man grabbed me by the ears and
6 hit me through the bars, those people who came with him, I saw clearly
7 that they were in civilian clothes, and some were in camouflage uniforms.
8 Now, who allowed them to come in, I really don't know how they got to us.
9 But I did say clearly that they did not come into the cell. They would
10 grab us -- grab me by the ears and hit me through the bars.
11 Q. So as far as you know, is it right that the front door of the SUP
12 was not locked so that people were coming in and hitting you through the
13 bars because they didn't have the key to get into your cell? Would that
14 be correct?
15 A. I think I've described this. The cell had bars, and there is a
16 wall there. They didn't enter the cell. I described exactly how they hit
17 me. But if you want me to go through this again, I'll be glad to.
18 Q. That's fine. I'm going to move on now to the second place you
19 were kept, and I'll call it the prison, just for -- to keep it short.
20 You referred to that prison as the national defence building, or
21 the All People's Defence building. That was the name of the building
22 before the war, wasn't it, as far as you know?
23 A. Yes, that's what I said. Someone probably told me, and that's how
24 I knew, and that's how I referred to it. Now, whether it is the All
25 People's Defence building or not, it's really not something that I can
1 know. I did say many times -- how many times I've been to Srebrenica
2 previously, and what the reasons had been for me going there.
3 Q. Well, the people at that prison were also in old police uniforms,
4 weren't they, or some of them.
5 A. Yes, some of them. They were wearing different kinds of clothes.
6 Q. Isn't it correct that at that time you thought that Mandza was the
7 person in charge of the prison? That was the impression you had.
8 A. What I want to say is I did not know this man Mandza previously.
9 What I'm saying about him is from the moment I learned who he was, and
10 this was the early stage of my exchange and when I was taken to the
11 hospital, and that's all I can speak about. Anything else I would tend to
12 disagree with.
13 Q. I'm looking at your 2002 statement, and it's paragraph 171 just
14 for our reference, ERN 01171390: "Mandza seemed to be in charge of
15 prisoners. I think he was some type of commander."
16 So wasn't that your impression at the time, that Mandza was the
17 boss in the prison?
18 A. No. I don't believe I could have stated anything like that.
19 Again, I'm telling you, I did not know Mandza. I think I explained this
20 with sufficient clarity, when it was that I met Mandza. And later I
21 realised, and during my last exchange, I already knew him quite well and
22 we exchanged greetings.
23 Q. That's fine. And if you could please keep your answers short,
24 because we're all keen to make progress. There's no need to repeat
25 anything you've said already.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Richardson.
2 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I do have an objection with respect
3 to the paragraph that was just read by Mr. Jones. I think Mr. Jones has
4 made the reference "Mandza seemed to be in charge of the prison," the
5 statement says "Mandza seemed to be in charge of the prisoners." I think
6 that's an important point.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: That's what I heard Mr. Jones saying. I mean, I
8 stand to be corrected.
9 MR. JONES: I think -- when I read what he said, I read verbatim
10 what was in the statement. I asked him whether he had the impression that
11 he was the boss of the prison.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: My hearing is usually not defective in the least.
13 MS. RICHARDSON: My objection is being in charge of the prison is
14 one thing, being in charge of the prisoner is something else.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: I never heard Mr. Jones suggest to the witness that
16 he had said that Mandza was in charge of the prison. What I heard
17 Mr. Jones saying was, suggesting to the witness, that in his statement he
18 had stated that Mandza was, in his opinion, in charge of the prisoners. I
19 may have heard --
20 MS. RICHARDSON: Well, Your Honour, if that's the case, that's
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, thank you.
23 MR. JONES:
24 Q. Now, dealing with the beatings which you received in the prison, I
25 think you've told us that you were beaten mostly at dusk, you said 9.00 or
1 10.00 in the evening. So it's right, isn't it, that it was very dark at
2 that time?
3 A. That's correct.
4 Q. And is it your evidence that everyone in your cell was beaten at
6 A. More at night than by day. I believe that's what I said
7 originally, didn't I?
8 Q. Yes. But isn't it right that Milomir Djukic was in your cell for
9 two days at least, and that no one beat him?
10 A. Yes, for two days, precisely. For two days he wasn't beaten by
11 anyone, and then he was returned to the hospital.
12 Q. So if the beatings were occurring at night, when it was dark, how
13 did Milomir Djukic manage to avoid getting beaten, if you know?
14 A. As far as I remember, he told me so himself, after we met again at
15 the hospital. I don't believe I saw this myself, because my condition was
16 very difficult. I think I've described this, haven't I? I never said
17 that I saw this with my own eyes, didn't I?
18 Q. But he was in the cell the same time as you, wasn't he, Milomir
20 A. Yes. But as I said, for two days only.
21 Q. You also said that Ratko Nikolic didn't get beaten that much. And
22 again my question is: How is it possible that he had a differential
23 treatment when you were beaten when it was dark? How was he singled out
24 for less severe treatment?
25 A. I have no idea why, or how. I know that he was standing near the
1 door, if you want me to go through that again. I really can't give you
2 the reason why his treatment was what it was, why he was beaten less. I
3 have been able to explain exactly how many times I've been stabbed by a
4 knife, and exactly what they did to me. If you want me to go through that
5 again, no problem.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: There's no need for that.
7 Yes, Mr. Jones, please.
8 MR. JONES:
9 Q. No. Simply to make this point: That you told us how in the
10 evening you would hear trucks stopping, people saying, "let's get the
11 Chetniks," running into the prison and then beating you. You accepted
12 that it was dark at the time. So my question is: How did Ratko Nikolic
13 manage to escape such a severe beating if you were all being beaten by
14 these people in the dark?
15 A. What I'm trying to explain is this: Why was that? Ratko Nikolic
16 was standing next to the door, and the first thing they would say when
17 they came in is, "Who is Ratko Mladic?" And then he would hold out his
18 arm with two fingers raised, and then on their way in whoever came in
19 first would whack him. I'm not going into that again, because I believe I
20 provided a description of that already. And then what happened later,
21 they started lighting those pieces of paper and they started beating us.
22 Q. Right. Now, the guards at the prison, you told us, provided you
23 with a stove, which I think you said they filled several times. Wasn't
24 that to keep you warm? And didn't they also try to block the window to
25 keep the heat in?
1 A. I don't agree with that. Do you want me to explain?
2 Q. Well, why would they --
3 A. I think I've explained this, haven't I?
4 Q. You explained that the guards provided you with a stove, and that
5 they filled it and lit the stove. Surely that was to keep you warm.
6 A. No, I don't believe that. In that case, they wouldn't be pouring
7 cold water on us, they wouldn't beat us, and they would not stop up the
8 stove-pipe that was going out through the window. There was no glass pane
9 in place there.
10 Q. Now, I'd like to read something from your September 1994
11 statement. It's page 4. The ERN is 03092380. You don't need to refer to
12 it because you've told us something similar here. You said: "From time
13 to time, I heard the sounds of women crying in pain and dull blows coming
14 from their room, but I cannot say anything specific about any abuse or
15 maltreatment they suffered."
16 So do you say, do you maintain that you heard the sound of blows,
17 i.e., people being hit in the women's cell? And again, you can provide a
18 short yes or no answer.
19 A. What I heard -- based on what I heard, the answer would be yes.
20 Q. I put it to you, Mr. Ivanovic, that not a single woman was
21 mistreated in that prison, and that you've simply said that because you're
22 prepared to say anything about how mean the treatment was in the prison,
23 no matter how untrue. That's my suggestion to you.
24 A. I'm not sure if you understand me, if you understand my
25 description. I heard a voice, but I never, for a moment, suggested that I
1 had heard blows or any sort of noise. I said there was a voice. Whether
2 it was someone moaning or not, I really can't say. I really can't
3 describe the voice for you.
4 Q. All right. I've read from your statement where it says "dull
5 blows." Here you told us: "I suppose we were beaten more often and more
6 severely than the women," by which you were implying, weren't you, that
7 the women were also beaten?
8 A. This is precisely what I'm telling you. I heard voices. Now, if
9 they were beating them or not, I really don't know. Maybe someone said
10 differently, or that I indeed stated that they were beaten with pieces of
11 wood or bats. I don't think I ever said that. I did speak about a voice
12 that was sort of prominent, I did say that.
13 Q. Mr. Ivanovic, please --
14 A. Maybe there was --
15 Q. -- keep your answers short. So is it right, then, that you didn't
16 mention hearing blows coming from their room, and so therefore the ICTY
17 investigator either misheard you or added that to your statement?
18 A. Again, I can only answer the question by saying this: That's what
19 I heard.
20 Q. Have you spoken to Svetlana Trifunovic since you've both been
22 A. No, we've never spoken. I did pass her in the street several
23 times, but I never spoke to her about her [as interpreted]. And the
24 reason was that she used to come to our prison and spit at us on a daily
1 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not get the last part of the
2 witness's answer.
3 MR. JONES:
4 Q. It's not important. Have you spoken to any of the other women who
5 were held captive at the same time as you?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Have you ever spoken to Branko Mitrovic, who you mentioned on
9 A. I never spoke to Branko either, but I heard that he himself had
10 said that he had not been beaten. And, as I've told you, I heard him play
11 in the corridor with some other children. I think I've described it well.
12 Q. Since you've been -- since you were released, have you ever met
13 and spoken with Branko Mitrovic?
14 A. With Branko Nikolic, no, never on that matter --
15 Q. Mitrovic.
16 A. Mitrovic, yes. I did meet with him, but I never discussed these
17 matters with him, nor go beyond that which I remember myself.
18 Q. In your 2002 statement, and it's paragraph 138, you said: "Branko
19 LNU and Svetlana Trifunovic were detained in the cell together with the
21 Do you remember saying that?
22 A. Branko? I apologise, I'm a bit sleepy. I haven't had five hours
23 of sleep together. This is a very difficult experience for me, going back
24 to that time. So if you don't mind, can you please repeat the question,
25 and I'll answer it.
1 Q. Of course. No problem at all. And if you need a break, I'm sure
2 Their Honours would be glad to give you one.
3 It was simply this question: Do you remember saying that Branko
4 was detained, detained at the prison, with the women?
5 A. No. He never was, because I know that from the very start he was
6 held with us. And he can confirm that himself.
7 Q. So if that's in your 2002 statement, that's something which is not
8 true. All right. That's fine.
9 MR. JONES: If Your Honour will bear with me for a moment.
10 [Defence counsel confer]
11 MR. JONES:
12 Q. All right. Just a few more matters. As far as nutrition is
13 concerned, I think you told us that in all the 40 days you were
14 imprisoned, you ate and drank practically nothing, and that you only went
15 to the toilet once. Do you maintain that?
16 A. Yes, I do.
17 Q. Food was, in fact, brought twice a day, wasn't it? And what was
18 brought was what everyone was eating in Srebrenica, including the guards;
19 would you agree with that?
20 A. Let me tell you that I was speaking for myself. Perhaps the food
21 was brought over, but I did not eat it because of all the beatings I had
22 to endure. I really can't remember how often they would bring the food in
23 the course of the day. I know that I didn't eat it. I remember that once
24 this woman came and placed a plate on my chest. But even then I was in
25 such a bad condition that I couldn't eat.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Q. And you had no water for 40 days?
2 A. No, I did drink water. But I think I explained it quite clearly
3 what sort of water it was. It was full of feces, urine. And they told us
4 to drink it, they were calling us Chetniks, and that they weren't there to
5 serve us, and that sort of thing.
6 Q. Were you aware, perhaps from your time in the hospital, that there
7 was no clean water supply in Srebrenica because the Serbs had destroyed
8 the water treatment plant and therefore everyone had filthy water. Are
9 you aware of that?
10 A. I'm not.
11 Q. Okay. Now I'm going to ask about some of the other people you
12 were in captivity with.
13 Firstly, the people who were brought in from Cerska. And I'd like
14 you to have a look at the note which you produced, I think it was,
15 yesterday, P474.
16 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, it's P475.
17 MR. JONES: Yes, my apologies, P475.
18 Q. Now, according to that, Mico from Sase was brought in from Cerska;
19 is that correct?
20 A. I don't know if he was brought over from Cerska, but I remembered
21 Mico simply as Mico from Sase. And I believe I explained that quite
22 clearly as well.
23 Q. Yes. You have no idea what Mico's real name is, do you?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Now, weren't the people brought from Cerska in a terrible
1 condition when they arrived because of what they had suffered from
2 anything from five to seven months in a stable near Kasaba?
3 A. Yes. When they were brought over, they were not in a condition
4 that was as severe as ours, although later on it all seemed to be kind of
5 presented that way.
6 Q. When they arrived, they were already bloody, apart from Andza.
7 The men were already bloody, weren't they?
8 A. At that point I never saw Andza. She was probably put up together
9 with the women. I explained to you when it was that I saw Andza, and what
10 she told me.
11 Q. Yes. The men, the men were already covered in blood when they
12 arrived at the prison, weren't they?
13 A. Yes. Some of them were probably covered in blood, beaten up, but
14 they were not in as severe a condition as I was, by the look of it.
15 Q. Okay. Would you agree that some or any of them were already close
16 to death when they were brought in?
17 A. No. I wouldn't agree with that, not at the point when they were
18 brought in. I remember well that they stayed on after I left for the
20 Q. Let's start with Jakov Dzokic. You last saw Jakov Dzokic alive,
21 didn't you?
22 A. Yes, he was alive.
23 Q. So you don't know, do you, if he died, or if he did die, whether
24 he died in the cell or at some later stage?
25 A. After my exchange, I never heard of the man again. I only said
1 that I knew what his condition was when he remained in the cell after I
2 was transferred to the hospital.
3 Q. Did you ever hear of Rade Pejic after your release?
4 A. I heard that Rade Pecic, and that's how I had his last name
5 written down, I never knew the man before. I can only tell you about him
6 from the time that we spent together in the hospital, but nothing else. I
7 heard that reportedly he went out.
8 Q. All right. My point, really, is this: You don't live anywhere
9 near Jakov Dzokic, do you?
10 A. No.
11 Q. You seem to have assumed he died because you didn't see him again.
12 But would it be normal for you to bump into Jakov Dzokic, in the normal
13 course of things?
14 A. I don't know. I heard specifically that he was alive, but I'd
15 really like to know if he is. I heard that he was thrown out of
16 Srebrenica by the Muslim defenders. Now, that's just what I heard.
17 Q. Isn't the same true of Dragan Ilic, that you last saw him alive
18 and you don't know for sure what happened to him?
19 A. I have no idea what happened to him later on. I only know that he
20 remained there. Not knowing anything about him, I might have stated in my
21 statement that he might be dead. But I stick to, therefore, what I said,
22 either this way or the other.
23 Q. In other words, you stick to not knowing what happened to him.
24 A. That's correct. I really don't know.
25 Q. Now, for Mico, we've seen a Mico who appears to have come in from
1 Cerska. Wasn't there a Mico in the SUP when you already arrived? I'm
2 looking at the transcript. It was the 24th, Monday, page 34,
3 line 12: "Then there was Mico," and in the context, that is, of when you
4 arrived. So was there a Mico in the SUP when you first arrived?
5 A. Yes. And I believe that's what I said, that Mico was at the SUP.
6 Q. Didn't you also say that there was a Mico who was brought in to
7 the second prison with Cane and Miloje Radanovic. And I'm looking at your
8 2002 statement, paragraph 69: "I'm not exactly sure when, but three more
9 other Serb men who had been imprisoned were put into the cell with the
10 five of us. I will tell you what I know about the other three men."
11 And then paragraph 70: "FNU, LNU, called Mico, born in 1950, from Sase."
12 And then in the next two paragraphs you mention Cane and Miloje Radanovic.
13 So is there another Mico again who was brought in with those two
15 A. As far as I could remember, and on the basis of what I had in
16 writing, I knew about this one Mico. I don't remember the other one. I
17 could even describe the man to you. I know the disposition in which we
18 were lying on the floor in the cell at the All People's Defence building.
19 Q. Now, Mico, you told us that he died after he was beaten by a
20 16-year-old boy who was asking where he had hidden flour; is that correct?
21 A. Yes, that's correct. I don't know if I said that he was a
22 16-year-old boy. I might have said that he was perhaps 16 to 20 years of
24 Q. So he was a young man or boy.
25 A. He was very young. That's why I described him that way, at least
1 as far as I could see him.
2 Q. Now, you referred to someone who you knew as Kojo. It's right,
3 isn't it, that you don't know what his name is. You don't know yourself
4 what his full name is.
5 A. That's right. I didn't know him before. I met him the moment we
6 got into the prison, and I explained and described him to you, to the
7 extent that I knew him.
8 Q. So I'll refer to him as Kojo. Didn't he die after this exchange
9 which occurred with the Muslim man coming back from Bratunac, after a
10 particular beating on that evening, which I put is the 6th of February,
11 1993, when a bunch of people came into your cell and beat all of you? In
12 other words, wasn't it that specific evening, a beating of that specific
13 evening which led to his death?
14 A. I can't say, really. I did explain to you clearly that we were
15 beaten every day and every night.
16 Q. Wasn't there a particular occasion when there had been an exchange
17 and this man had come back from Bratunac, and also bodies had been
18 returned from Bratunac, and that a lot of Muslim civilians got very angry
19 when they saw the state of the bodies and rushed into the cell and
20 attacked all of you? Do you recall an incident of that nature?
21 A. I can't say anything about this. I only know about this young man
22 that I was telling you about, when he got into our cell. And then this
23 other man who came in and said that, although we are Chetniks, he wouldn't
24 hit us for the whole of Srebrenica. I've explained it quite clearly. You
25 can take a look at the document.
1 Q. As I say, there's no need to repeat anything you've said already.
2 Didn't, on that occasion, or indeed on other occasions, the guards
3 sometimes try and stop people from beating you?
4 A. No, that never took place. I assure you, never.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Jones, how much more do you reckon you have?
6 The reason is my attention has been drawn by the Victims and Witnesses
7 Section to see whether it's --
8 MR. JONES: We can certainly pause now. I probably have another
9 half an hour.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Let me put it to the witness himself.
11 More or less, we have about half an hour left. We can have a
12 break now, if you want, or we can finish with your testimony and then you
13 can go. You told us a few minutes ago that you are feeling a little bit
14 tired because you hadn't slept enough. If you think you need a break now,
15 and we will resume and then finish half an hour later, we can do that.
16 What do you think? What is your preference?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'd prefer to finish my testimony
18 now. I will do my best to endure this, because I would really like to
19 finish this and go back home. I fear that my condition could get worse if
20 the situation is prolonged.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.
22 Yes, go ahead, Mr. Jones, and let's try to finish by -- the next
23 break will be at 12.00, not at 12.30. We are flexible. Instead of 12.00,
24 it would be a few minutes past 12.00, but it's not the usual 12.30.
25 That's because we resumed after the first break earlier than -- half an
1 hour earlier than usual.
2 MR. JONES: Yes.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Take your time. I'm not, in any way, interfering or
4 suggesting that you should shorten --
5 MR. JONES: No, I understand that. I'm confident I can finish my
7 Q. And please understand, Mr. Ivanovic, I'm not trying to put you
8 through an ordeal, and there will just be a few more questions. All
10 I want to ask you about Branko Sekulic. Now, you last saw Branko
11 Sekulic alive in the hospital, didn't you, being taken care of by doctors
12 and nurses who were doing their best for him?
13 A. Branko Sekulic? Yes, he was with me at the hospital.
14 Q. In the hospital, didn't the doctors do their best for you, all of
15 you, including Branko Sekulic, giving you pills and injections and
16 attending to your injuries?
17 A. Nobody was dressing our wounds, to the extent that I could see. I
18 did tell you that we were administered some injections; I don't know what
19 their substance was. We were given some pills. But I can't say whether
20 it was these treatments that helped me and the others recover or rather
21 simply the fact that we were not being beaten anymore.
22 Q. Doctors were doing their best to keep you alive, weren't they?
23 A. I'm grateful to them, and probably the others, those of them who
24 have survived.
25 Q. Now, in the hospital, wasn't Branko Sekulic alert and able to
1 talk, because he was providing information to Milomir Djukic, just as you
2 and Rade Pejic were?
3 A. As far as I remember, basically, all of us were conscious when we
4 got to the hospital, although we could not get up. And Branko Sekulic
5 could stand up, although he had to be given some sort of a staff to assist
6 him to walk to the toilet. I think I've already explained this clearly.
7 Q. Hadn't Branko already been injured before his capture, if he told
8 you, in Rogac.
9 A. No. I assure you that he never mentioned Rogac, nor did I write
10 that name anywhere. This is the first time I hear this. I don't have it
11 in my notes.
12 Q. Now I want to fix, if possible, the dates and times that you were
13 in the hospital. I know it's difficult. But you mentioned yesterday, I
14 think, that you were interviewed by a person who you thought was a judge.
15 Now, can you, first of all, try and fix that for us, how many days that
16 was into your captivity, how long before you went to the hospital, how
17 long after the incident where Rade Pejic's beard was burnt? If you can
18 fix it in relation to some event, that would be helpful.
19 A. I wish I could do that, but I was in such a bad shape that it's
20 difficult for me to date individual events. I relayed these events as
21 best I could. I wasn't able to find out what the date was. It was
22 difficult to endure this ordeal for one day, let alone 40.
23 Q. Okay. Well, leaving that meeting aside, I want to clarify one
24 point about the meeting in the reception room, if you can go back to that.
25 And I believe there may have been a misunderstanding. You seem to be
1 telling us that when you were brought into the reception room with the
2 five or so people, that you were lying down in front of the people. Now,
3 is that correct? Or were you, in fact, standing up when you saw them?
4 A. That's not correct. I never said that. Nobody forced us to lie
5 down on the floor. We were standing in front of them, and they were
6 deliberating amongst themselves, asking some questions. I never said that
7 we were prone; I simply said that we were lying down when we were being
8 beaten. That's all.
9 Q. Believe me, Mr. Ivanovic, that's what I understood you to be
10 saying, but there was a mistake in the -- a mistake arose, and so I'm glad
11 you clarified that for us.
12 Now, Ismet Hodzic was in that reception room, you told us. Didn't
13 he help to get you transferred from the prison to the hospital?
14 A. Believe me that I never saw him at the time. When I was
15 transferred down there, as I've already been explaining, it was -- the
16 course of events was that we -- there was simply this truck that came to
17 pick us up, although I don't even remember that. I remember that we were
18 walking up the staircase, and that then I found myself in the hospital
19 room. I was even telling you about the soldiers assisting me to go up the
21 Q. Yes. And if we are to finish by 12.00, Mr. Ivanovic, if you could
22 keep your answers short. I'll try and ask you very specific questions.
23 My question, really, was this: Didn't you understand at some
24 point that because Ismet was grateful to your father, Radenko, for helping
25 him, that he helped you to be transferred to the hospital?
1 A. I don't know. I'm not sure that this is true. I'm grateful to
2 Enis and to his family, and I even visited his family. This was the man I
3 mentioned that came, visiting me, to the hospital and at the prison. I
4 don't know to which extent these people are to be thanked for some things.
5 I only know that I was done in.
6 Q. Just two more areas I want to cover with you. Regarding whether
7 Ratko Nikolic was in the hospital with you, I think it's fair to say that
8 we have different versions of whether he was or was not. In your 2002
9 statement, you say repeatedly that Ratko Nikolic was in hospital with you,
10 and I'm referring to paragraph 172, at page 18 of 27, quote: "All four of
11 us, Ratko Nikolic, Branko Sekulic, Rade Pejic, and I were put into the
12 same room at the hospital."
13 And then it goes on, at paragraphs 172 to 220, to state that you
14 were in the hospital, you and Ratko Nikolic, you went for an exchange, you
15 came back again. I understand now that you're saying he wasn't ever in
16 the hospital with you. So is that right?
17 A. That's correct. I don't remember this particular detail. Perhaps
18 I might have said one thing and then something else was added, although
19 I'm not blaming anyone for this. I only remember that I was taken to the
20 hospital, and that there was this truck in front of the court and the
21 municipal building, and that they were going to fetch this Ratko.
22 Q. Did each time you went for these exchanges, they would take you
23 from the hospital and then Ratko Nikolic from the cell; and then at the
24 end of the first two failed exchanges, take you back to the hospital and
25 Ratko Nikolic back to the cell?
1 A. As far as I remember, that's how it happened. I'm not sure
2 whether this is true or not, but at least that's how I remember it, how I
3 explained it. I remember well the course of events during that first
4 exchange, when I didn't even believe it was going to be an exchange.
5 Q. So is it right, then, that Ratko's condition was not so bad that
6 he needed to be hospitalised?
7 A. I know Ratko very well, and when we were exchanged, Ratko was in a
8 much better condition than I was, physically speaking. However,
9 psychologically speaking, he was much worse off, because he was unaware of
10 things, he seemed to get lost, at least as far as I remember in relation
11 to the first exchange.
12 Q. Did he know that you were in the hospital when you were going for
13 these exchanges?
14 A. I really can't say. Honestly, I'm telling you what I know.
15 Q. And Rado Pejic, how long was he in the hospital with you, more or
16 less, if you can estimate?
17 A. I don't know. He was there from the moment I was brought. How
18 long he stayed after I had left, I really can't say. And what we said
19 about him a while ago, asking whether he was still alive or not, this is
20 something I can't say.
21 Q. Now, when you were exchanged, you and Ratko alive, that was for
22 dead Muslims, wasn't it?
23 A. Two dead bodies and two persons who were alive, to the extent that
24 I could see. There was a coffin placed on a cart. When I was being taken
25 there, I couldn't walk. And there was quite a lot of snow, too.
1 Q. Sorry, I didn't catch that. Did you see two live Muslims coming
2 back from the other side when you were exchanged?
3 A. Yes. Yes, I did. They sat on a coffin. You know what I mean
4 when I say "coffin." It's something with bars. I'm not sure how to
5 explain it.
6 Q. Yes. Now, what final area, and it concerns this, document P475,
7 if the witness could be shown it again.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, usher, please. Do you still have it?
9 MR. JONES:
10 Q. Now, to clarify, do you say this was copied word for word from the
11 note that was written down by Milomir Djukic?
12 A. No. When I left home, on that list that I told you about, on one
13 side I wrote down people from Cerska and on the other side the people from
14 Skelani. It was just a note that I made to keep myself from forgetting,
15 and that's what I'm telling you. It's in my wallet, and before I left to
16 give testimony, I copied it so that it may serve as a reminder in case I
17 failed to remember some things.
18 Q. So, in fact, isn't there another piece of paper, which is what
19 Milomir Djukic wrote down, Milomir Djukic, which you then took with you
20 and which you, in fact, gave to the Serb authorities and did not retain?
21 A. I don't know if the Serb authorities took that from me or whether
22 it was something that I copied from one of their documents later on. But
23 I have this well-warn piece of paper that I have on me. By the time I got
24 there, I couldn't remember some of the details, such as whether it was
25 given to me. This is all I can tell you about that. I still have the
1 same list.
2 Q. Yes. It's just to establish, the list which Milomir Djukic wrote
3 down, which you then hid in the hospital and, I think you said, in your
4 cell as well, that list you gave to the Serb authorities after you were
6 A. I really can't say whether I did or not. What it says there, I
7 really can't say. I can't challenge the fact that I may have given it to
8 them. But maybe it was something that I copied from one of their
9 documents later, in a bit, to learn about the fate of those people, or
10 maybe somebody brought it over to me. I really don't know what I may have
11 said at the time, or how I gave it to them.
12 Q. In your 2002 statement, page 25, ERN 01171397,
13 paragraph 248: "Djukic gave me the list. I hid the paper in my
14 underwear. When I was exchanged, I still had the paper with me. I gave
15 the paper to the Serb authorities sometime after I was exchanged, and they
16 kept it."
17 So could that be correct?
18 A. It's possible. I really can't challenge that. I simply don't
19 remember what exactly happened in those days. I can only confirm what I
20 still remember, but I can't challenge the fact that I may have given it to
21 someone in Skelani, whoever happened to be there. I really can't say.
22 Q. Just one final question on that document: You told us that you
23 didn't believe, when you were being taken for exchange, that you would be
24 exchanged but that you would be killed. Why did Milomir Djukic give you a
25 list, this precious document, and why did you accept it, if you really
1 feared for your life?
2 A. I simply didn't know that I would be taken to be exchanged in the
3 first place. He didn't give it to me at first because it hadn't been
4 written. I think that was written after the first or second day there. I
5 have no idea.
6 Q. Did you -- you also told us that you went back to your cell, and
7 that you were trying to hide the piece of paper in your cell, placing it
8 beneath the linoleum. So did he give you that document before you went
9 for exchange or before you went back to your cell? It's not clear to me.
10 A. Please allow me to clarify this. I never said that I hid that
11 piece of paper in the cell. What I tried to explain was that I took out
12 this piece of cloth from my underwear which are used to make a noose. The
13 idea was that I would hang myself before they started cutting me up with
14 their knives. There was a table in that room and some pipes from which I
15 intended to hang myself in the case. I never said that the list was
16 hidden there. I believe my explanation at the time was quite accurate and
18 Q. So it's really just to make this point, Mr. Ivanovic, and it's my
19 last question: That isn't it right that you really didn't fear that you
20 would be executed when they took you to hospital and that you didn't fear
21 certain death if returned to the cell, because if you did fear either of
22 those things, you wouldn't have taken custody of this precious list but
23 you would have left it with Milomir. That was my point.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: What was your answer, if there was an answer? And
25 if there was a question, because actually it was more of a remark.
1 MR. JONES:
2 Q. Let me put it this way: When you took this piece of paper with
3 the names on it, you didn't expect to die, did you, you expected to live
4 and be able to pass that paper onto someone.
5 A. Of course I didn't know that I would make it. He wrote this down
6 for us so that we could -- it's as simple as that, just in case any of us
7 survived. But it wasn't out of the question that I could perhaps survive,
8 or any of us for that matter.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.
10 MR. JONES: I thank you.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Jones.
12 Is there re-examination?
13 MS. RICHARDSON: Just a few questions, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Try to finish in less than 10 minutes, please.
15 MS. RICHARDSON: I will.
16 Re-examined by Ms. Richardson:
17 Q. Mr. Ivanovic, you were asked about whether you told the
18 investigator or whether you told anyone in 1994, when you gave your
19 statement, that Naser Oric was being present. Do you recall being asked
20 that by Mr. Jones?
21 A. Can you please just repeat this.
22 Q. Yes. As a matter of fact, I'll rephrase it.
23 When you were interviewed by the investigator, were you asked
24 about putting together the face that you saw in the room in Srebrenica,
25 where you were interviewed by the five men, with the face that you saw
1 later on as you watched television?
2 MR. JONES: I'm afraid we're talking about a statement from
3 September 1994. We've got no evidence at all of when he saw television
4 programmes. It was a matter I didn't get into because --
5 JUDGE AGIUS: It's a matter that you didn't get into, but it's a
6 matter that he testified upon, and he never said when.
7 MR. JONES: To avoid confusion, if we can at least, first of all,
8 make sure the witness understands he's being asked about September 1994,
9 and when he allegedly saw photos of Naser Oric. Otherwise, I think it may
10 be confusing.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I think that needs to be cleared up a little
13 MS. RICHARDSON: That's fine.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Your first question, in any case, needed to be
15 re-put in a different fashion in any case.
16 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, in the interests of time, I'm trying
17 to speed up. I'll take it one step at a time.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: I know that.
19 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, I'll take it one step at a time.
20 Q. Mr. Ivanovic, you recall that when you were released from prison,
21 you said yesterday, as you testified, that you observed the person that
22 you believed was Naser Oric, and you saw his face on television after you
23 had been released; is that correct?
24 A. Yes. I did see the face, but I believe I've explained this in
25 great detail. I tried to learn as little as possible about anyone in
1 order not to remember all these things about my captivity, to remember as
2 little as possible. As for that person, I assume, based on the talk at
3 the reception room -- and I do believe that I did see him in at least one
4 other place, that person, but I never said that I was certain about that
6 Q. Well, my question is this: Were you, in 1994 -- had you seen the
7 image? Do you remember exactly when it was that you saw the face of Naser
8 Oric on television or sometime after you had been released?
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Or in newspapers.
10 MS. RICHARDSON:
11 Q. Or in newspapers.
12 A. Yes, I did see him a number of times in the papers and on TV. I
13 can't give you the exact dates. I never needed to memorise those. But,
14 of course, I did see his face on TV, in the papers, as their soldier. But
15 I don't think I can talk about that, I can only talk about what happened
16 to me from the day I was captured until my release.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. But since your capture, 11 years have passed,
18 plus, almost 12 years. When you maintain that you saw pictures or images
19 of Naser Oric on newspapers or on TV, relatively speaking, approximately,
20 was it at a time soon after your release, your exchange, or was it in
21 recent years, that you saw his images on TV and on newspapers? We would
22 like to know. And the reason why we would like to know, I will tell you
23 later. But for the time being, you need to remember, try to remember at
24 least, when was the first time that you saw an image of Naser Oric on TV
25 or on a newspaper? How many days, months, years maybe, after your
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, after my exchange, I saw that
3 face, but I can't remember the dates. I can't say, for example, I saw
4 that face on such and such a date. But I do remember all too well that I
5 saw the face on TV, where he was made out to be a soldier. And I saw his
6 face in the papers too.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: But if I put it to you that you were released --
8 exchanged in 1993, would you accept that, during that same year, in 1993,
9 you had already seen images or photos or pictures of Naser Oric on TV or
10 newspapers, in that same year, or would you exclude it?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I, to the extent that I
12 remember, I really can't say. But it occurs to me now that I may have
13 seen the same person in the newspapers after my captivity. As for the
14 exact time period, believe me, after I had been released, I was not even
15 allowed to eat on my own without medical supervision. I really don't know
16 when this may have been. I did see him with those same clothes, and just
17 as I've described him to you. The person that I saw at the reception
18 room, that I had been taken to from detention, he had long hair and a
19 beard. But I really can't say anything else. Nor do I want to
20 necessarily link this up with any images that I may have seen later on.
21 MR. JONES: Your Honour, may I just say --
22 JUDGE AGIUS: I think we will leave it at that, Mr. Jones.
23 MR. JONES: Just because it's such an important point, it's very
24 clear there's never been any recognition, any recognition, by this witness
25 of Naser Oric. He made clear in cross-examination that the inference was
1 based on what guards said. I certainly avoided asking 20 or 30 questions
2 about identification which I would get into if that were ever in issue.
3 It isn't, and I suggest we move on.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm not quite sure the Prosecution would agree with
6 MS. RICHARDSON: No, Your Honour. In fact, the record is clear
7 that the witness stated that he -- at the time that he first saw this
8 person with the beard in the room, he didn't know who he was.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, but anyway, no arguments in the presence of
10 the witness.
11 If you have more questions, please put them. I'm not going to
12 proceed with any questions, further questions, on this matter with the
14 MS. RICHARDSON: Fine, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Because I don't know I would get anywhere and I
16 don't think I should try to get anywhere.
17 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, Your Honour, and the record speaks for
18 itself. Thank you. I'll move on.
19 Q. Now, Mr. Ivanovic, the individuals who beat you at the national
20 defence building, Tihic, you knew him from before; correct?
21 A. Yes. I knew Tihic.
22 Q. All right. And at the time that he beat you in the national
23 defence building, as far as you know, was he a soldier?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And this person Budo, who beat you as well, was he a soldier?
1 A. Yes, correct.
2 Q. And the others that you described who came into the cell, were
3 some of those individuals who beat you soldiers?
4 A. Yes, that's for sure. Most of them were.
5 MR. JONES: Sorry, could we have clarification of which Tihic?
6 Because there was Ahmo Tihic, there was Dzemo Tihic, there was Mehmedalija
8 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't think we need to, Mr. Jones. We all know
9 which of the Tihics. It was certainly not the one --
10 MR. JONES: It's Dzemo, as I understand it.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: That's the Tihic that he mentioned before anyway,
12 one of them, because there was another one who stepped over a grenade and
13 ended up in --
14 Yes, Ms. Richardson.
15 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, Your Honour. And just very briefly, Defence
16 Exhibit 169, I would just have that handed to the witness for just a
17 couple of questions. It won't be very long at all.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: That's his statement.
19 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, it's a statement that was
20 assigned --
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Supposedly the 23rd of February, the statement.
22 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, Your Honour. ERN number 02113343, that's
23 the English, and then the B/C/S version 02113346. And I should also say,
24 Your Honour, with respect to your question about the various -- the
25 different ERNs, it is the exact same document. We were able to verify
1 that during the break.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, all right. So we'll ignore the other, in
3 other words.
4 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, indeed.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, thank you.
6 MS. RICHARDSON:
7 Q. Mr. Ivanovic, could you just look at the last page in that
8 document, and tell me if -- I should say, if you sign -- if you recall
9 signing this document at any point. Is your signature on this document in
10 the B/C/S version? Do you recall signing it?
11 A. No.
12 Q. It's, for the record, not there. My next question to you is: Do
13 you recall advising -- do you have any recollection of this person Osta
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Ostoja Bozic.
16 MS. RICHARDSON:
17 Q. That's the name that appears on the last page of this document.
18 If you look at the document for a moment, the last page.
19 A. I can look at it if you want me to, but I'm trying to listen
20 carefully to what you're asking me, because I don't know if there is a
21 person by that name in Skelani at all.
22 Q. All right.
23 A. Because that is the only way I could know the person. I don't
24 know of this person, so I don't think there's really any need for me to
1 Q. Thank you. That answers my question. Do you recall telling, or
2 giving information that you had been a member of the Skelani battalion?
3 Do you recall, in 1993, telling anyone that?
4 A. No. This is really something that I don't remember. I've
5 clarified this sufficiently, as to where I was, and that Kojo was with me.
6 But they were perfectly within their rights to call me whatever names they
8 Q. This document also states, "on June 27, 1993, a prisoner exchange
9 took place," and that -- I won't read the full statement, but it appears
10 as though this document is stating that you were exchanged on June 27,
11 1993. Is that information correct? Or were you, in fact, exchanged on
12 the 26th of February?
13 A. I don't think that really matters. I don't think that really has
14 anything to do with this.
15 Q. But my question --
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's not waste time. It's obvious that this
17 statement contains a lot of inaccuracies. I mean, even the day of his
18 capture --
19 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, and I --
20 JUDGE AGIUS: -- is wrong.
21 MS. RICHARDSON: I thank you, and I was just making --
22 MR. JONES: That's the only inaccuracy, with respect.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: 16th February. But it couldn't have been taken on
24 the 23rd of February either, if he was relieved -- released on the 26th.
25 MR. JONES: Yes. Someone could have been careless with dates and
1 everything else.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Right.
3 MS. RICHARDSON: In the interests of time, I will not go through
4 all the other inaccuracies in this document. I have no further questions
5 for Mr. Ivanovic.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Yes, Judge Brydensholt would like to put
7 a question to you, or more than one question.
8 Questioned by the Court:
9 JUDGE BRYDENSHOLT: Well, I go back to the moment when you were
10 brought to this reception room in the prison. First of all, were there
11 other prisoners present at the same time?
12 A. No. Before we were transferred from the police station, I hadn't
13 seen anyone else there prior to that. I hadn't noticed anyone else in
14 that cell. The first people to be brought in were the group of people
15 who -- that were transferred from the police station.
16 JUDGE BRYDENSHOLT: Please, this is a misunderstanding. I'm
17 thinking of the time when you were brought from the cell to this reception
18 room. Were there other prisoners brought at the same time to the same
19 reception room, or were you the only prisoner present in the reception
20 room, for the investigation?
21 A. That's correct. There were some, myself, Rade Pecic, and Ratko
22 Nikolic, the people who were brought there.
23 JUDGE BRYDENSHOLT: Yes. Were you all there during the same
24 period? When you were finished and brought back to your cell, were the
25 other prisoners brought back at the same time?
1 A. I didn't notice anyone else being brought in, or taken back to the
2 cell, or rather the reception room. My apologies, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE BRYDENSHOLT: Does that mean that you were there, the three
4 of you were there, during the same period, and when you left, the other
5 prisoners left as well?
6 A. I never said that. The other prisoners came to the reception room
7 later on.
8 JUDGE BRYDENSHOLT: So you were not there at the same time?
9 A. I don't understand what you mean, "at the same time." I explained
10 that I had been -- the three of us had been taken out, three of them, and
11 there were between five and seven people there. I'm not sure what was
13 JUDGE BRYDENSHOLT: Yes.
14 A. My apologies, I think I've mixed this up a little. When they took
15 me out, you're talking about the people who were already at the reception
16 room when I was being interrogated? Is that what you have in mind?
17 Because I started talking about when they were beating us. My apologies.
18 JUDGE BRYDENSHOLT: Yes. I'm speaking about the meeting where
19 five persons were present in the reception room. They were asking you
20 some questions regarding your military career, and that kind of thing.
21 And I'm asking you, at the same time as you were examined, were there
22 other prisoners in the same room, in the reception room, to be asked
24 A. No. I was the only person brought to the reception room, at least
25 as far as I can remember.
1 JUDGE BRYDENSHOLT: And for how long time did you stay there?
2 A. Not for long. A handful of words were exchanged, but many of them
3 kept silent. At once they said, "Take him back to his cell." Two
4 soldiers escorted me back to my cell, and that's all I remember.
5 JUDGE BRYDENSHOLT: But did I understand you well that you had the
6 opinion that the meeting was dealing with whether or not you should be
7 exchanged? Is that what you are telling me?
8 A. No. I don't think that was the subject of their discussion. Much
9 later, I was eventually taken to the hospital.
10 JUDGE BRYDENSHOLT: Yes. But what was the subject of their
11 discussion then, if it was not regarding your exchange?
12 A. I have no idea why they came to the reception room. As I have
13 said before, I think it's on the record, they asked me several questions,
14 then they said that I should be taken back to my cell, and that was that,
15 as for that particular meeting, if you like. If you want me to go again
16 through what I could hear while there, I can do it for you.
17 JUDGE BRYDENSHOLT: No, thank you. I'm satisfied.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, thank you. Do you have any questions,
19 Judge Eser?
20 JUDGE ESER: The questions that I have had are already answered.
21 Thank you. No further questions.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. And I don't have any questions for you,
23 Mr. Ivanovic, which basically means that your testimony comes to an end
24 and you are now free to go back home.
25 On behalf of the Trial Chamber, on behalf of Judge Brydensholt, on
1 behalf of Judge Eser, on my own behalf, but also on behalf of the Tribunal
2 in general, I should like to thank you for having accepted to come over
3 and give testimony in this case. And you will now be assisted by Madam
4 Usher, who will escort you out of the courtroom to another room where you
5 will receive, from now on, all the assistance you require to facilitate
6 your return back home. Once more, I thank you, and behalf of everyone I
7 wish you a safe journey back home.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. Thank you for hearing me
9 out. My best wishes to everyone in the courtroom.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
11 [The witness stands down]
12 JUDGE AGIUS: So now we will have a 25-minute break, and then we
13 will start with the next witness, all right? Okay, thank you.
14 --- Recess taken at 12.10 p.m.
15 [The witness entered court]
16 --- On resuming at 12.40 p.m.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: So let's wait for the accused.
18 Yes, everything is in place. Good morning, Mr. Dzokic. I am the
19 Presiding Judge. My name is Carmel Agius. To my right I have Hans Henrik
20 Brydensholt from Denmark, and on my left I have Judge Albin Eser from
21 Germany, and I come from the island of Malta.
22 I would like to know, first and foremost, whether you are
23 receiving interpretation in your own language.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. And if you think that the volume in your
1 headset is either too low or too high, please let the usher know and we
2 will make the necessary adjustments.
3 I would like to welcome you to this Tribunal on behalf of the
4 Trial Chamber, and also on behalf of the Tribunal in general. You are
5 about to give evidence, which I understand will not be a long one, I
6 understand. Our rules require that before you do so, you make a solemn
7 declaration, equivalent to an oath, to the effect that in the course of
8 your testimony, you will be speaking the truth, the whole truth, and
9 nothing but the truth. The text is contained in a piece of paper that
10 Madam Usher is going to give to you very shortly. I would like you now to
11 stand up, read out that text aloud, with the understanding that that will
12 be your solemn undertaking with this Tribunal, that you will be testifying
13 the truth.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
15 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
16 WITNESS: VIDOSAV DZOKIC
17 [Witness answered through interpreter]
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, I thank you. You may sit down.
19 Is the sound level of the interpretation good for you, or do you
20 want it higher or lower?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's fine.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. You are going, first, to be asked a series of
23 questions by a member of the team for the Prosecution, and I think
24 tomorrow we will then have the cross-examination which will be conducted
25 by the lead counsel for the Defence.
1 My responsibility is to draw your attention to the oath, to the
2 solemn declaration you just made, on the basis of which you have a legal
3 obligation, and also a moral one, to answer all questions that are put to
4 you, irrespective of who is putting the questions, truthfully, honestly,
5 and as fully as possible, as complete as possible. Did I make myself
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: If you have any questions you want to put to me
9 before we start, please go ahead. Otherwise, I would invite Jose Doria --
10 MR. WUBBEN: Jose Doria, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Jose Doria, to proceed with his questions.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Mr. Doria, you may proceed. I take it that
14 you will be finishing your in-chief today?
15 MR. DORIA: Yes, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: You have exactly, more or less, one hour from now.
17 Examined by Mr. Doria:
18 Q. Witness, is that correct that your name is Vidosav Dzokic?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Is that correct that you were born on the 9th of September, 1950?
21 A. 1951. Yes.
22 Q. 1951. Is that correct that you are of Serb ethnicity?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Is that correct that you are married and you have children?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Is that correct that your wife's name is Bojka, and you have three
3 A. Bojka. I have three children. That's right.
4 Q. Is that correct, that the children's names are Jakov, Vidosava and
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Is that correct that your mother, Radojka, also used to live
8 together with you?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Is that correct that you used to live in the village of Kalabace,
11 Sekovici municipality?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Is that correct that you are constructor as your professional
15 A. Yes, that's right.
16 Q. Is that correct that you used to work for a construction company
17 in Belgrade, since 1975 until 2002, when you retired?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Witness, how often did you used to come back home during that
21 A. Seven days a month.
22 Q. How was your relationship with your wife and with your children?
23 A. It was good.
24 Q. Were you able to follow the schooling and education of your
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Concerning Jakov, your eldest son, did he go to the school?
3 A. Eight. Yes.
4 Q. For how long did he go to the school?
5 A. For eight years.
6 Q. Is that correct, that your son stopped to study when he was about
7 15, 16 years old?
8 A. That's when he stopped.
9 Q. Yes. It should have been, if he stopped his studies at around 15,
10 16 years old, it should have been in 1987, 1988. Can you tell the Judges
11 what --
12 A. Yes. Yes.
13 Q. Okay. What was doing your son after finishing his studies?
14 A. He stayed with me in Bosnia and in Belgrade. In 1990, he joined
15 me in Belgrade. He stayed there because he got a job with a company,
16 Mosta Gradnja.
17 Q. And for how long did he stay with you in Belgrade?
18 A. For six months. After that he went into the army, in 1991, on the
19 17th of March.
20 Q. When he used to live with you, you say that he used to live with
21 you a time in Bosnia and in Belgrade. Was he living together with you in
22 the same house, or he was living separated from you?
23 A. He was living with me.
24 Q. You stated that in 1991, your son left for military service.
25 Where did he leave his belongings when he left for military service, his
1 personal belongings?
2 A. In Belgrade, in my apartment.
3 Q. When was the next time that you saw your son? You said in 1991 he
4 left for military service. Did he come back?
5 A. He came back and then went -- he was there, he was captured there,
6 and then he went to Kranj, where he was captured, and then a month later
7 he was released. And upon his return, he went to Tuzla for his military
8 service. That was in 1991.
9 Q. Do you recall if all his belongings, you said you left his
10 belongings in Belgrade, do you recall if he had any other belongings in
12 A. He had his clothes and the outfit he worked in, because we were
13 together in one household.
14 Q. So you stated that it was in May 1992, is that right, that he came
15 back to see you from his military service.
16 A. He came from Han Pijesak in May 1992, it must have been around the
17 10th of May. He just spent the night with us and then returned to
18 Han Pijesak. He said that he was supposed to be released from the army in
19 some 10 days. I was waiting for him, but he never showed up.
20 Q. And do you know why he didn't come back?
21 A. His intention was to set out for Belgrade. He reached
22 Konjevic Polje, where he was captured.
23 Q. How did you find out that he was captured?
24 A. A courier came to me later on. He was sent by the Muslims. He
25 came to my home, but I was already semi-conscious when he was there.
1 THE INTERPRETER: Correction: I wasn't there when he came.
2 MR. DORIA:
3 Q. After you got the information that he was captured, have you ever
4 seen him again?
5 A. Never.
6 MR. DORIA: May the witness be shown Exhibit P66, please.
7 [Prosecution counsel confer]
8 MR. DORIA: Do we have the B/C/S version? Yes.
9 Q. Witness, you just said that your wife's name was Bojka. Is that
10 correct, that Bojka was also --
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. -- Jakov's mother?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Is that correct, that Bojka was born in Basici?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Is that correct that your son, Jakov, was born on 15th October,
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Is that correct, that he served in the JNA until 7 February 1992,
20 in Klanica and was then sent to Han Pijesak?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Is that correct that when he left your home the second time to
23 finish his military service he was wearing a camouflage olive-drab
25 A. Yes. When he came to our house in May, he was wearing a military
1 uniform. It was on the 10th -- or was it the 8th of May, 1992.
2 Q. And was it with this uniform that he left your home too?
3 A. Yes, he did. He left for Han Pijesak. He returned to
4 Han Pijesak. He just spent the night at my place.
5 Q. Is that correct, that he also told you that he was going to
6 Han Pijesak for only ten days?
7 A. That's correct, that's what he said.
8 Q. Thank you. Thank you. Witness, you said that you never saw your
9 son again. Did you have any kind of communication with him after May
11 A. No.
12 Q. When was the first time after that event that you came to know
13 about the whereabouts of your son?
14 A. A courier came to my house, and I only learnt that he was captured
15 on the 17th of May, in Konjevic Polje. But at that time I was already in
16 a very serious condition and had to receive medical treatment.
17 Q. Thank you. You already told us about that. I mean after knowing,
18 being informed about his capture, did you try to find out more information
19 concerning your son?
20 A. Afterwards, Andza came from the prison in Srebrenica. She was at
21 the Zvornik hospital, and she was calling upon me to come and see her, but
22 I couldn't. My daughter and my wife did. And she told them about my son
23 and how ill he was, in a very bad condition.
24 Q. Apart from Andza, was there anyone else who told you about the
25 conditions of detention of your son?
1 A. There was this man by the name of Misic. I don't know what his
2 surname was. He was in the Zvornik hospital. And he had also come from
3 the prison in Srebrenica. I wasn't there because I was working for my
4 company in Belgrade. There was this friend of mine, Krsto Asceric, who is
5 dead now, and he told him about my son, how he was in very bad shape, he
6 was unable to stand up. And so this colleague of mine conveyed this
7 information to me. We were both working together at the company.
8 Q. So what did Miso tell your colleague?
9 A. He told him that he was sick, that he could not stand up in the
11 Q. Did you try to find out -- did you get any further information
12 concerning your son after that?
13 A. Another neighbour of mine from Kamenica told another neighbour
14 that, apparently, this other one knew where my son had been buried,
15 actually thrown, in a ditch. But I was unable to verify this information.
16 And this neighbour was an elderly man who died later on.
17 Q. Thank you, witness.
18 MR. DORIA: Thank you, Your Honours. I have no more questions.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: May I --
20 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: May I just inquire of you whether there has been any
22 exhumation of any body that could have been --
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not receiving any interpretation
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Who is not receiving any interpretation?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wasn't told about that. I was
2 never notified.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. You're not aware of any exhumations. I'm
4 asking because, in his statement, he does mention that at some point in
5 time he was shown some clothes, or something like that, and that he could
6 not, in any way, identify those. So if he was shown some clothes, I would
7 have presumed for some time at least that there could have been some body
8 that could have been retrieved and possibly -- you're not aware of
10 MR. DORIA: We are not aware of anything, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Fair enough.
12 Yes, Ms. --
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. No.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: -- Vidovic. So we don't have the proof of that,
15 nothing. It's just the suggestion that it could have happened, in other
16 words. That's it.
17 Yes, Madam Vidovic. Madam Vidovic now is going to -- yes,
18 Mr. Di Fazio.
19 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, just one very brief matter.
20 I won't trouble the Chamber for long. I don't want to hold the
21 Prosecution to that position necessarily without being able to research it
22 properly and answer Your Honour's inquiry, a very pertinent inquiry, if I
23 may say so.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: My remark, Mr. Di Fazio, was a very -- originates,
25 derives from that bit in his statement referring to pieces of cloth. I
1 don't know. They don't usually fall from heaven.
2 MR. DI FAZIO: I know. But as you can see from the statement, he
3 was unable to do anything with it, and that's why we haven't led evidence
4 of that.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: What I want to know is whether behind that is the
6 retrieval of a body which someone might have thought for a time could
7 belong to his son.
8 MR. DI FAZIO: I could make that inquiry and let you know and,
9 with respect, it's a very pertinent inquiry. If -- as I said, I don't
10 want the Prosecution to be held to this position -- we don't intend to
11 lead it. It may be that at some later point there would be further
12 evidence touching upon that, and I don't want to be in a position to then
13 say, Well, you said that previously there was no such information and
14 now --
15 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. There's also a bit of information in a
16 statement which refers to a possible site where the bodies of this person,
17 plus two others, were thrown.
18 MR. DI FAZIO: Exactly.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Again, I mean, I haven't heard any questions on
20 those, and obviously I suppose you have taken those into consideration as
22 Madam Vidovic.
23 Cross-examined by Ms. Vidovic:
24 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, sir.
25 A. Good afternoon.
1 Q. I will ask you a series of questions. I believe we can finish
2 today. Leaving aside for a moment what other people told you about your
3 son, and basing ourselves on what you know from your personal knowledge,
4 the only thing you can say is that you believe your son is dead just
5 because you haven't seen him since May of 1992. And you also believe that
6 he would have been in touch if he was alive. Is that correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Based on the accounts of other people, you believe that your son
9 died in prison, in Srebrenica, don't you?
10 A. That's what I believe. They said that he had died. There were a
11 number of witnesses who heard -- Miso and Andza both said that there was
12 no way that he could have survived, and that he died.
13 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Dzokic. Let's take this one step at a
14 time. You mentioned four persons as your source of information on your
15 son, once he had been captured.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Luka?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Andza?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Miso?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. A Bosniak called Hasan?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. These four persons, if you look at these four persons, the first
1 three, in fact, never told you anything about your son's death, did they?
2 A. They didn't, but Hasan Milic from Kamenica told his neighbour,
3 Nedjo, that he had died and that he was thrown into some sort of a pit.
4 Q. Mr. Dzokic, please, can you hear me out? Listen carefully to my
5 question, and make a pause so that my question can be interpreted.
6 A. Yes, of course.
7 Q. So, Luka was the one who told you that the Muslims had captured
8 your son at Konjevic Polje, in late May 1992, and that he was then
9 transferred to Cerska; isn't that correct?
10 A. Luka said it was on the 17th of May, 1992, that he had been
11 transferred to Cerska, that later he had been transferred to Cerska -- to
13 Q. Very well. What Andza told you is true in as far as -- the
14 information that Andza had was true, and this is something she conveyed to
15 you through her wife [as interpreted]; isn't that the case?
16 JUDGE AGIUS: There's something wrong with the transcript. I
17 mean, I know we are living in very modern times sometimes, but I didn't
18 expect to find that Andza had a wife as well. So it looks as if there is
19 some mistake in the transcript.
20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'll repeat the
21 question. What I said has nothing to do with that. Your Honour, I'll
22 repeat the question.
23 Q. What Andza told you is true only if her original information was
24 true, which she conveyed through your wife.
25 A. She said that he was ill in Srebrenica, that's once she had left
1 the hospital and was already in Zvornik. She said that he had remained in
2 prison, in Srebrenica, and that he was not well.
3 Q. Very well, Mr. Dzokic. Please, if you can answer briefly. We'll
4 hear more about her testimony later on, and she will appear and testify.
5 I'll just ask you another brief question in relation to this.
6 In your statement to the investigators back in 2004, in
7 paragraph 7, the last sentence reads: "Andza had also told my wife that
8 the conditions in the prison were very poor. It was cold and there was
9 nothing to eat."
10 So my question is: Did Andza really tell your wife that they had
11 been given nothing to eat?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. As concerns what Miso told you, that was hearsay, it was something
14 you heard through Krsto. We shall be hearing Krsto's testimony here in
15 court, but I'll ask you another question in relation to that.
16 Is it not true that he told you nothing whatsoever in relation to
17 your son's death in Srebrenica?
18 A. No, he didn't say anything. He just said that he was very ill,
19 and that he was bedridden. That's what my friend told me. I don't know
20 about Krsto, or who told him anything.
21 Q. Very well. So you heard nothing whatsoever from Luka, Andza, or
22 Miso about your son's death in Srebrenica; is that correct?
23 A. That's correct. I heard nothing.
24 Q. In actual fact, the only source that you base yourself on when you
25 say that your son died in prison, in Srebrenica, is something you heard
1 later on from a Bosniak.
2 A. This Bosniak in Kamenica told my neighbour Nedjo that he had died,
3 and that he had been buried and thrown.
4 Q. But you never actually talked to this Bosniak, did you?
5 A. No, I didn't. He died a month or two later, because he was a very
6 old man.
7 Q. Through your neighbour, or anyone else, did you try to obtain more
8 information as to the specific location where your son was allegedly
10 A. No, I couldn't go. I didn't know what or where. I didn't go. I
11 went to Zvornik. I asked questions. I went to Basenica and to Srebrenica
12 and all over the place, and no one could tell me anything about that.
13 They just didn't know.
14 Q. Is it not true that you had information that your son's body had
15 been buried in a cemetery close to the church in Srebrenica; isn't that
17 A. Yes, that's what people said. But I couldn't check this out
18 myself. I wasn't able to find that place.
19 Q. Did you try to request from the Serbian authorities an exhumation
20 of that area in order to find the remains of your son?
21 A. I did go there. I asked questions; I made requests. But no one
22 was willing to actually do anything about it. I just wasn't able to
23 achieve anything.
24 Q. So in actual fact, you never received any information whatsoever
25 to the effect that your son's body had been exhumed by anyone.
1 A. No.
2 Q. You said you found out that your son had been badly beaten during
3 the many months that he spent in captivity, in Cerska.
4 A. That's what Miso and Andza said, that they had been beating them.
5 But I don't know because I didn't hear this from anyone else.
6 Q. If his death was a result of beatings after he had arrived in
7 Srebrenica, that would tally with the information that you received,
8 wouldn't it?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. I just have another question for you. You discussed your son's
11 death with the Serbian authorities; isn't that correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Would you agree with me when I say that the Serbian authorities
14 asked you about information related to his military service?
15 A. They asked questions, and I answered them. But no one answered
16 any of my queries.
17 Q. It is also true, isn't it, that you forwarded all his personal
18 information to the Serbian authorities.
19 A. Yes. Information from Srebrenica, Bratunac, Vlasenica, Sekovici.
20 I went all over the place, but I received no answers.
21 Q. Likewise, you mentioned to them that your son had returned to
22 Han Pijesak, did you not?
23 A. Yes. I told everyone all over the place.
24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, just a moment, I
25 believe we have something on the transcript that was not actually said. I
1 would like to have this clarified.
2 [Defence counsel confer]
3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Witness, please, my question was: If the death of your husband
5 [as interpreted] was a result of the beatings in Cerska prior to his
6 arrival in Srebrenica, would that not tally with the information that you
7 received about the treatment that he received in Cerska?
8 A. I heard nothing about anything until Andza came along, and Miso
9 too. The two of them came back from the prison, and that's what they
11 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. Again, there is a mistake, an obvious
12 mistake, in the transcript, page 86, line 17. It says "if the death of
13 your husband..." And now we have a male witness supposedly having a
14 husband. It's obvious that it should have been "if the death of your
15 son ..."
16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] The death of his son.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Let's proceed.
18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no further
19 questions for this witness. I would just like to say that we have raised
20 an objection in relation to this document's authenticity, and that is the
21 reason -- that is what gave rise to my last several questions. This is in
22 relation to our previous filings and motions. Thank you.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.
24 Is there re-examination, by any chance?
25 MR. DORIA: No, Your Honour, we have no questions.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Do you have any questions? Do you have
2 any questions? In Latin this would have been described as a lexio brevis.
3 Indeed it is.
4 We are finished with your testimony, Mr. Dzokic, which means you
5 are free to go back. You will be escorted very shortly by Madam Usher,
6 and then you will receive all the assistance you require to enable your
7 return back home as early as possible, as quickly as possible.
8 I wish to take your opportunity, on my own behalf, and on behalf
9 of Judge Brydensholt and Judge Eser, I thank you for having accepted to
10 come over to The Hague and give testimony in this case. And very soon you
11 will be left -- you will be gone. And on behalf of everyone here, I wish
12 you a safe journey back home.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honours.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
15 [The witness stands down]
16 JUDGE AGIUS: So let's wait until the witness leaves the
18 That leaves us with the other witness, who I suppose is not here.
19 MR. DORIA: No, Your Honour, he is not here.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: That's very understandable. We'll start with the
21 next witness tomorrow morning at 9.00. As I explained to you, we need to
22 finish by not later than 12.30, but I don't think we will require more
23 than the first session, in any case, all right?
24 I thank you all, and particularly I wish to thank you for your
25 cooperation in making it possible to dispose of these two witnesses within
1 the end -- by the end of the week, which would make it possible for them
2 to return back home. I really appreciate that. Thank you.
3 Yes, Mr. Wubben.
4 MR. WUBBEN: We would like to ask -- we have a request for you,
5 and I requested Mr. Di Fazio to prepare a short oral submission in that
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Di Fazio.
8 MR. DI FAZIO: Just a very brief matter. You know that some time
9 ago the Defence filed a motion relating to Rule 68 and authenticity of
10 documents, and we have duly filed our response, and now they have filed
11 another response. The question is, would the Trial Chamber feel it of any
12 benefit for the Prosecution to, in turn, file --
13 JUDGE AGIUS: To respond to the response.
14 MR. DI FAZIO: -- I've looked at the Rules, and it doesn't seem to
15 contemplate the situation. I would think there's a stop point somewhere.
16 But if you would feel -- if you want us to reply and put further
17 arguments, we're more than willing to do so.
18 I think that's all I wish to raise.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Di Fazio. I personally haven't
20 read the reply because I only got it this morning. I have it in my
21 briefcase. Of course, I'm taking it back home. I imagine that my two
22 colleagues are exactly in the same position. This is something that we
23 will discuss amongst ourselves tomorrow morning, and we'll come back to
24 you. But I wouldn't imagine. I mean, otherwise we'll be playing
25 ping-pong here. You know, I mean, the response to the response to the
2 MR. JONES: Your Honour, on that matter, may I just say, in that
3 sense, it's perhaps wrong to characterise ours as a response to a
4 response. The Rules contemplate motion, response, reply. We've been
5 through that sequence. That, in my submission, is the natural sequence,
6 and if there were further submissions, then it could go on forever.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: And in addition, there was a more than justifiable
8 reason for allowing you to file a reply to the response, because there was
9 fresh evidence.
10 MR. JONES: Litigation has to end somewhere, as they say.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Again, we are not pre-empting the issue. I still
12 need to read, and my colleagues still need to read, the reply to the
13 response, and then we'll come back to you tomorrow morning, all right?
14 Thank you.
15 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.23 p.m.,
16 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 27th day of
17 January, 2005, at 9.00 a.m.