1 Monday, 14 February 2005
2 [Open session]
3 --- Upon commencing at 9.06 a.m.
4 [The accused entered court]
5 JUDGE AGIUS: So good morning, everybody, and you, in particular,
6 Mr. Registrar. Can I ask you to call the case, please.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Case number
8 IT-03-68-T, the Prosecutor versus Naser Oric.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you.
10 Mr. Oric, good morning to you. Can you follow the proceedings in
11 your own language?
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours, ladies
13 and gentlemen. Yes, I can.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, and good morning to you. Please take a
16 Mr. Wubben, appearances for the Prosecution.
17 MR. WUBBEN: Good morning, Your Honour. My name is Jan Wubben,
18 lead counsel for the Prosecution, together with co-counsel,
19 Mr. Gramsci Di Fazio, and our case manager, Ms. Donnica Henry-Frijlink.
20 And also good morning to the Defence team.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, and good morning to you and your team.
22 Appearances for Naser Oric.
23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. Good
24 morning to my learned friends and colleagues. My name is Vasvija Vidovic.
25 Together with Mr. John Jones, I appear for Mr. Naser Oric. We have with
1 us our legal assistant, Ms. Jasmina Cosic, and our case manager, Mr. Geoff
3 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Madam Vidovic, and good morning to you
4 and your team.
5 Any preliminaries before we start with the new witness?
6 MR. WUBBEN: No, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.
8 MR. JONES: Your Honour, just one, which is that, as I mentioned
9 to my learned friend, with this witness, who may be controversial, may
10 give his opinions on a number of subjects, we would appreciate if my
11 learned friend would not lead at all once we get to his arrival in
12 Srebrenica. I believe it's a matter we have a right to insist on, and we
13 would insist in this instance.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Of course, of course. The practice is, and I made
15 it clear from the very word go, that we would -- although, strictly
16 speaking, leading questions are not procedurally correct, we allow them
17 here, provided there is no objection. The moment there is an objection, I
18 mean, we stick to the Rules --
19 MR. JONES: Because I don't want to be --
20 JUDGE AGIUS: But do --
21 MR. JONES: What I mean is, because I don't want to be jumping up
22 the whole time, I made that clear to my friend this morning. Obviously,
23 the background matters, where he was born he --
24 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no, I'm not referring to that.
25 Mr. Wubben, who is leading this witness?
1 MR. WUBBEN: I am, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. And I'm also -- we've discussed this a
3 little bit this morning, Judge Brydensholt, Judge Eser, and myself. We
4 would like you to stick to the basics -- to the point and try to restrict
5 your questions to what is basically relevant to this case. On the other
6 hand, we also want to make it clear that we will not be imposing any
7 deadlines as regards this witness. In other words, you will have all the
8 time you require, both of you, both Defence and Prosecution, of course.
9 On the other hand, that doesn't mean that you can go on and on ad
10 infinitum, okay? Good.
11 Could you bring the witness in, please.
12 [The witness entered court]
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning, Mr. Mujkanovic.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Before we proceed any further, I want to make sure
16 that you are receiving interpretation in your own language.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I am.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, thank you. Welcome to this Tribunal. I am
19 the Presiding Judge. My name is Carmel Agius, and I come from the island
20 of Malta. At my right is Judge Hans Henrik Brydensholt from Denmark; to
21 my left, Judge Albin Eser from Germany. We are presiding over this case
22 against Naser Oric.
23 You are about to give evidence, and according to our Rules, before
24 you do so, you are bound to make a solemn declaration, a solemn
25 declaration equivalent to an oath, and tantamount to an oath, such that
1 you will be testifying the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
2 truth. The text of the solemn declaration is going to be handed now by
3 Madam Usher. Please read it out to -- read it out loud, and that will be
4 your solemn undertaking with us.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
6 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
7 WITNESS: NEDRET MUJKANOVIC
8 [Witness answered through interpreter]
9 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. You may sit down.
10 The procedure here is a very simple one, more or less, the same as
11 it is in domestic jurisdictions. You have been summoned here as a witness
12 by the Prosecution, and accordingly, Mr. Wubben, who is lead counsel for
13 the Prosecution in this case, will ask you a series of questions. He will
14 then be followed by Mr. Jones, who is co-counsel in the Defence team for
15 Naser Oric. Your testimony is expected to last a few days, so I have to
16 tell you that if, at any time, you feel tired and you need a break, please
17 do let me know and I'll discuss with my two colleagues and decide what to
19 However, your responsibility, your foremost responsibility is to
20 answer all questions, irrespective of who is putting these questions, in
21 other words, whether the Prosecution or the Defence. Your responsibility
22 is to answer those questions, all of them, independently of where they
23 come from, truthfully and fully and to the best of your ability.
24 Have I made myself clear?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, you have.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.
2 Mr. Wubben.
3 MR. WUBBEN: Thank you, Your Honour. In the meanwhile, you might
4 have noticed that co-counsel Ms. Joanne Richardson joined the Prosecution
5 team, and further, as an issue, there are maps upon your general request
6 to hand them over prior to the start. There are two maps available for
7 you. The maps are kind of divided into the maps from Tuzla to Srebrenica,
8 so that means west to east, and Zvornik to Zepa, which means north to
9 south. I tender these on your behalf.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.
11 MR. WUBBEN: Thank you, Your Honour.
12 Examined by Mr. Wubben:
13 Q. Good morning, Dr. Mujkanovic. I will start my questions now.
14 Please confirm for the Judges your name -- your full name is Nedret
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And you were born on the 30th of May, 1961, in Brcko, Bosnia?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Your ethnic origin is Bosniak?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Your current occupation is plastic surgeon in the University
22 Medical Centre, Tuzla?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Your former occupation is resident pathologist?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. You have participated in politics as a member of the local Tuzla
2 parliament from 1990 until 1997?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Regarding military service, in 1980 and 1981, you served one year
5 compulsory military service with the JNA in Slovenia?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Your educational background is that, after the army, you attended
8 medical training at the university for six years?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And after those medical studies, you were a general practitioner?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And after that, you specialised in pathology?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And you conducted autopsies in the hospital in Tuzla in the field
15 of training of students?
16 A. Among other things, yes.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: I think this latter phase in his career, I think he
18 better identify it within a time frame. When did he become a pathologist,
19 a qualified pathologist, and when did he start conducting these autopsies?
20 Which year?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In 1988, I worked as an assistant at
22 the medical school in the pathology department. I trained students in
23 pathology and pathological anatomy. Part of their training was also to
24 conduct autopsies. One of the drills used for training medical students
25 included autopsy, and I stayed in that capacity until March 1992. I
1 worked as an assistant. From March 1992 on, I worked as a surgeon. I
2 have been a surgeon to this day.
16 [Private session]
11 Page 4985 redacted. Private session.
11 Page 4986 redacted. Private session.
19 [Open session]
20 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session, now.
21 Thank you, witness, and thank you, Mr. Wubben.
22 MR. WUBBEN:
23 Q. I'll proceed, Dr. Mujkanovic. Is it correct that in May 1992, in
24 the Tuzla area, a war field hospital needed to be set up?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And did you volunteer to go?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And did you also set up war field hospitals in June 1992?
4 A. Yes. It's actually the same hospital. It was in Kalesija
5 municipality, about 20 kilometres to the east of Tuzla.
6 Q. And there came a time in July 1992 that you met with
7 Professor Dr. Radevic, and that he clarified to you that he had been
8 tasked by the War Presidency of Tuzla to resolve the problem of having to
9 send a surgeon to Srebrenica; is that correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And were you considered as a candidate for that job?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And was your response to this request positive?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Why were you willing to volunteer for such a mission?
16 A. In Srebrenica, there was a difficult situation related to
17 accommodating the wounded and injured persons. At that point Srebrenica
18 was an isolated enclave, as it remained throughout the war. There was no
19 possibility of transporting the wounded and injured on to Tuzla Hospital.
20 As a result of that, people died and succumbed to their injuries. A war
21 field hospital needed to be set up following the war surgical doctrines in
22 order to be able to deal with the problem of the wounded and injured
23 people as soon as possible in the Srebrenica area and the mid-Podrinje
25 I volunteered, or rather, I accepted an offer from Dr. Bozina
1 Radevic, who was my boss. He was head of surgery at the University
2 Medical Centre in Tuzla. And in July, I started my preparations to leave
3 for Srebrenica, or rather, to be infiltrated into the Srebrenica area,
4 which at the time, as I said, was entirely surrounded and isolated. It
5 was impossible --
6 Q. Thank you. Dr. Mujkanovic, here I have to stop you because I have
7 another question. What was your projected function and tasking regarding
8 that war field hospital -- that war hospital? I'm sorry.
9 A. Primarily, to establish a war hospital based on the principles of
10 the war surgical doctrine. That means to establish a hospital to function
11 at war, not in peace. Then to establish a well-functioning reception of
12 the wounded, the moment they are wounded, where they're wounded, their
13 transportation to the hospital, according to the rules of the modern
14 medicine. The hospital had to be equipped with all the surgical
15 instruments and the necessary implements, and more surgeons had to be
16 enabled to arrive in the territory of Srebrenica in order to provide for
17 the needs of some 80 to 100.000 people who were present in the area at the
18 time, from Kamenica to Zepa.
19 Q. Thank you. Next question: Was the war hospital in Srebrenica
20 planned to function within the organisation of the Srebrenica armed
22 A. It was not discussed at that time how it was supposed to function,
23 but since early on, I worked as a war surgeon at the Kalesija war
24 hospital. There was a rule for the war hospitals to provide care both for
25 the wounded members of the army - at the time it was Territorial Defence;
1 later on to become the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina - as well as
2 civilians who would be wounded during an attack of shelling or an air raid
3 and requiring surgical intervention.
4 Q. Did you, after preparation, actually leave for Srebrenica on the
5 22nd of July, 1992?
6 A. On the 22nd of July, 1992, an action commenced with the aim of
7 infiltrating a medical team with people who were carrying the entire
8 medical equipment necessary for the setting up of the war hospital, in the
9 direction of Srebrenica. However, this did not happen on the 22nd of
10 July, or on the subsequent days, because it was impossible for the entire
11 team to be infiltrated through the enemy lines in the area north of
13 Q. Did Zeljko Knez, the then regional TO commander in Tuzla, assign
14 Major Nurif Rizvanovic and his 16th Muslim Brigade in his mission in order
15 to escort you and your group?
16 A. After an initial attempt to reach the area of Crni Vrh, in which
17 we were prevented in the locality of Bajkovica, because we were prevented
18 by the enemy forces, the following day I returned to the Kalesija war
19 hospital where I asked for a different sort of an attempt to be organised
20 for us to be infiltrated with the equipment necessary for establishing a
21 war hospital. We were carrying the equipment on our backs. Mr. Muharem
22 Efendic, the commander of the 4th Tactical Group, contacted the commander
23 of the Territorial Defence in Tuzla, whereupon Mr. Knez, the commander of
24 the district staff of the Tuzla Territorial Defence, assigned Nurif
25 Rizvanovic and his group to accompany us, escort us, to the free territory
1 of Srebrenica.
2 Q. Well, Dr. Mujkanovic, is it correct that your fourth attempt to
3 cross enemy lines was successful, and that this crossing happened on the
4 29th of July, 1992?
5 A. Yes, that's correct. After having tried, together with Nurif
6 Rizvanovic, to cross the enemy lines, it was only on our fourth successful
7 attempt to cross the enemy lines, get into the area of Crni Vrh, which was
8 behind the enemy lines and was occupied by the Serb forces at that point
9 in time, we then headed in the direction of Snagovo, which was the
10 first -- the nearest liberated area under the control of the then
11 Territorial Defence, later to become the army of BiH.
12 Q. Is it --
13 A. And that was on the 29th.
14 Q. Sorry, I have to stop you. The 29th. Is it correct that finally,
15 on the 5th of August, 1992, you left for your last part -- for the last
16 part of your trip towards Srebrenica after you reached Bosnian-held
18 A. Yes, that's correct. In the afternoon hours of the 5th of August,
19 heading out from the direction of Konjevic Polje, I managed to reach
20 Gornji Potocari, the village of Susnjari, together with my team, which was
21 in the area -- in the free area of Srebrenica. I have to say that, having
22 arrived at Konjevic Polje on the 4th of August, the entire unit commanded
23 by Nurif Rizvanovic in Konjevic Polje, whereas I reached Srebrenica in the
24 company of the people who headed out with me from the start, as well as
25 with those who were assigned to be our escorts and take us to Srebrenica.
1 Q. Whether did you arrive at Srebrenica? What date?
2 A. On the 5th of August, 1992.
3 Q. And what appeared to be how long you would stay there in
4 Srebrenica? For how many months in total?
5 A. After having made the journey, which was a very unsafe one, a very
6 risky one - our lives were continually in danger - I knew that I was going
7 to stay there until --
8 Q. Sorry, doctor. Yes, my question was, for a good understanding,
9 for how long will you stay in Srebrenica, or were you already towards the
10 answer. If so, I apologise.
11 A. You mean how long I remained in Srebrenica. I stayed there until
12 the 22nd of July, 19 -- or, rather, until the 22nd of April, 1993, after
13 the demilitarisation of the area of Srebrenica.
14 Q. Thank you. That was, indeed, my question. On your arrival, who
15 did welcome you?
16 A. I entered the area of Srebrenica in the afternoon hours, at about
17 400 p.m., and I was welcomed by members of the Srebrenica Territorial
18 Defence, who were holding the positions there, and several villagers also
19 welcomed me. I waited there for about an hour and a half until Naser
20 arrived with several other members of the Territorial Defence to take me
21 personally to Srebrenica.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Naser who? I suppose there are many Nasers in
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Oric.
25 MR. WUBBEN:
1 Q. Was this the first time you met Naser Oric?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Who did accompany Naser Oric during that meeting?
4 A. At that point I didn't know anybody there. There were some 10 to
5 15 people there, men, who arrived with Naser, and they arrived on a truck.
6 It was then that I met Naser Oric for the first time, as well as Zulfo
7 Tursunovic. There were some other people among them who I got to know
8 later on and who I was frequently in touch with and socialised with. Some
9 of them were my patients, because they were eventually wounded.
10 Q. Dr. Mujkanovic, what was the function, if so, of Naser Oric?
11 MR. JONES: Sorry, this is the sort of question which I was asking
12 my learned friend to avoid. I mean, firstly, there's no -- to put a
13 question like that without any foundation, we've got the story so far that
14 Mr. -- or Dr. Mujkanovic has arrived in Srebrenica and he's been asked all
15 of a sudden to cast about and guess at what Naser Oric's function was. If
16 he asks -- it's not the sort of question which I think is appropriate.
17 [Trial Chamber confers]
18 JUDGE AGIUS: It's perfectly legitimate. The witness has just
19 told us that, all of a sudden, in this particular circumstance, Naser Oric
20 appeared with a number of men, and he is being asked whether he knows what
21 function Naser Oric was filling or having on that occasion. It's a
22 perfectly legitimate question.
23 MR. JONES: If my learned friend would stick to questions of what
24 was said by the people there, what was your impression. I mean, there's
25 no indication from the evidence that's been given that this witness will
1 know anything about what the function is of Naser Oric at that time. He's
2 just arrived on the --
3 JUDGE AGIUS: This is precisely what legitimises the question,
4 this is precisely why the question is perfectly legitimate. Go ahead.
5 You were asked by Mr. Wubben to tell us whether you knew of any
6 function that Naser Oric was filling or fulfilling on that occasion, if
7 you are aware. I don't want you to speculate.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I won't speculate. I had heard of
9 Naser Oric only as I was passing on my way to Srebrenica. I didn't know
10 who the commander in Srebrenica was. It was towards the latter part of my
11 journey, as I was heading towards Srebrenica, that I was told that the
12 commander in Srebrenica was Naser Oric. The rest I got to know when I met
13 him, whereas I had heard previously from people who were around me that
14 Naser Oric had been commander of the defence in Srebrenica.
15 MR. WUBBEN:
16 Q. Did you also find out, Dr. Mujkanovic, what function Zulfo
17 Tursunovic had, if so?
18 A. At that point I didn't know who Zulfo Tursunovic was or what his
19 role was, or of any of the men who met me there, for that matter.
20 Q. I will get back to that later on. I have the following question:
21 What happened after that first, initial, meeting with Naser Oric and Zulfo
22 Tursunovic? Where did you go to?
23 A. We were trucked from the village of Susnjari to the town of
24 Srebrenica itself. We stopped outside the post office building in
25 Srebrenica. The hospital was across from the post office building. And
1 it was in the post office building that I had a meeting, or rather, that I
2 had opportunity to get to know some other people who were there, including
3 two medical doctors, two colleagues of mine who had been working in the
4 Srebrenica hospital already. This took maybe half an hour at most, and
5 then I went to the Srebrenica Hospital, together with two doctors,
6 colleagues of mine.
7 We started unpacking the large sacks containing surgical
8 instruments for the purposes of the hospital, and we practically started
9 setting up the surgical theatre.
10 Q. Dr. Mujkanovic, what was the function of your colleagues that you
12 A. At that point nobody held any functions. They were simply doctors
13 working there.
14 Q. Can you mention the two most important colleagues that were
15 cooperating together with you?
16 A. They weren't the two most important ones working with me. There
17 was a total of seven doctors working in Srebrenica. One of them was
18 Dr. Avdo Hasanovic, who held the function of the general manager of the
19 hospital in Srebrenica.
20 MR. WUBBEN: Your Honour, permission to lead on the name of
21 another colleague.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's hear the question, and if it's the case of
23 stopping you, I don't know what question you're going to ask.
24 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, for Your Honour.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm sorry. Let's hear the question first, and then
1 we'll be in a position to tell you whether it's acceptable to go ahead
2 with it or not.
3 MR. WUBBEN: It's the question of the function of Dr. Ilijan
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Witness, are you in a position to enlighten us
6 on what role Dr. Ilijan Pilav filled at the time? What was his function?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The doctor's name is Ilijas Pilav.
8 MR. WUBBEN:
9 Q. Yes. And what was his function?
10 A. He had no function at the time or later on. He was one of the
11 doctors working in the hospital. I don't know of any function that he
13 Q. Dr. Avdo Hasanovic, apart from being a general manager of the
14 hospital, did he also have other tasking?
15 A. He was the general manager of the hospital, and I believe he was a
16 member of the War Presidency, though I'm not sure. I do know that he had
17 the task of acting as a liaison between the hospital and the War
18 Presidency in logistical matters. For the purposes of the hospital, in
19 other words, food, firewood or fuel, and medicines.
20 Q. And who did the autopsies in the hospital, if so?
21 A. No autopsies were performed in the hospital. There was just one
22 autopsy performed in the hospital by myself, because the actual cause of a
23 violent death had to be established, and this was the case with one member
24 of the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina who had been killed.
25 Q. Dr. Mujkanovic, I might come back to that issue later on. From
1 the start of your job at the hospital, what was your official function?
2 And if you have any title, please inform the Judges.
3 A. I don't understand the question in terms of the title.
4 Q. As Dr. Avdo Hasanovic was the general manager, what was your
5 function at the hospital?
6 A. At this point in time, my role was that of a war surgeon who was
7 supposed to operate on those wounded and injured, to organise the work of
8 the entire surgical ward, of the surgical theatre, of the reception ward,
9 triage ward. And in actual fact, the entire time I spent in Srebrenica,
10 and especially the first two months, was spent actually in the surgical
11 theatre and in linking up with those surgical points that were out in the
12 field from where those injured and wounded would then be transported to
13 the hospital.
14 Q. Now, you confirmed to the Judges that, at that point in time,
15 meaning August or September 1992?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And after those months, was there any change, any change in the
18 label of your position or your function?
19 A. Yes. Sometime in the second half of September, the operational
20 staff of the armed forces of Srebrenica was established, and my role
21 within the staff was that of a chief of the medical corps of the armed
22 forces of Srebrenica.
23 Q. And did -- can you tell the Court whether or not your function as
24 a war surgeon or as a chief of the -- chief medical commander of the armed
25 forces in Srebrenica fell within the military organisation of those armed
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Do you recall the number of treatments of Bosnian soldiers during
4 a year's time at that hospital?
5 A. The war hospital in Srebrenica had, in one year, from 17 April
6 1992 to the 17th April 1993, provided for over 3.600 wounded and injured
7 persons, out of which 1.600 were members of the army who were wounded and
8 over 1.000 wounded civilians, women and children.
9 Q. Were there any statistics available of how many soldiers in the
10 Srebrenica armed forces had been killed in that period of time?
11 A. We had approximate data in the hospital pointing to some 840 to
12 850 members of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina who had been killed. Now,
13 I'm only mentioning members of the army here, but there were over 2.000
14 civilians who were killed at the time as a result of shelling or air raids
15 directed against the town, or as a result of suffering injuries from
16 activating land-mines and so on.
17 Q. And again, Dr. Mujkanovic, the same period of time, 17th of April,
18 1992 until 17th of April, 1993; is that correct?
19 A. From the 17th of April, 1992 until the 17th of April, 1993, so I'm
20 talking about this one year of the official war in Srebrenica.
21 Q. And --
22 A. Actually, until the 18th of April, because it was after the 18th
23 of April that demilitarisation took place, so that's the one year that I
24 spent there.
25 Q. Did you treat yourself, in the war hospital, patients who were
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Serb prisoners, if so?
2 A. All those who were wounded or injured and were taken to the
3 hospital in Srebrenica were treated according to ethical principles and
4 principles of medical deontology, regardless of their religious, racial --
5 their religion, race, or gender, so that even those who were Serbs and
6 were wounded were treated according to the same rules of medical practice,
7 as had been applied to members of Bosniak or other ethnicities.
8 Q. And did that include Serb detainees?
9 A. I don't know anything about detainees. I'm talking about the
11 Q. What I mean, Dr. Mujkanovic, a wounded Serb patient who is as well
12 detained in your hospital? Can you confirm that sometimes some of your
13 patients were, as well, detainees?
14 A. I can confirm that my patients were persons who were wounded, and
15 as such were brought into the hospital and treated there. Following
16 treatment, they were handed back to the military police. But neither I,
17 nor any of my colleagues at the hospital, treated anyone in the status of
18 detainees. I am not sure about the definition of detainee, I'm not sure
19 what you mean exactly when you say that.
20 Q. Did it happen some time that there were guards before the doors of
21 a room where a patient was curing?
22 A. If I may be allowed to clarify. All the wounded would be brought
23 in in shifts. They were brought in in lorries. We did not have
24 ambulances, we used lorries to bring the patients in. We would then
25 conduct triage. Depending on the sort of wounds that they had suffered,
1 we would conduct surgery and treat these patients. We paid no heed as to
2 whether these people were Bosniaks or Serbs. It would sometimes happen
3 that, as a result of the limited space that we had at our disposal, all
4 these people were wounded so they had to lie in the same room, altogether.
5 Two or three days later, we would separate the Serbs, or rather, members
6 of the Serbian army, and take them to special rooms at the hospital with
7 special security. Guards were placed in front of these rooms, and they
8 were in charge of the security of these Serb patients.
9 I can say that no attack or incident ever took place at the
10 hospital. No one ever tried to hurt those people in any way. They shared
11 the fate of all of us who were in Srebrenica at the time, patients and
12 civilians alike.
13 Q. Those guards who stood guard for the doors -- in front of the
14 doors, were they in uniform?
15 A. To speak about uniforms in Srebrenica is a futile exercise. Those
16 people were soldiers carrying weapons in order to be able to provide good
17 security for the patients. As for uniforms, no one in Srebrenica really
18 wore a uniform at the time. They were all wearing civilian clothes, but
19 they were soldiers all the same.
20 Q. And they were armed?
21 A. Of course they were. The hospital --
22 Q. And was that, in your opinion, the military police?
23 MR. JONES: Sorry, the witness was providing an answer about the
24 hospital. I think he should be allowed to finish that answer, because
25 it --
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, you're correct, Mr. Jones. Let's go back to
2 line 12. The question, witness, was: "Those guards who stood guard for
3 the doors -- in front of the doors, were they in uniform?" And you were
4 saying: "To speak about uniforms in Srebrenica is a futile exercise
5 Those people were soldiers carrying weapons in order to be able to provide
6 good security for the patients. As for uniforms, no one in Srebrenica
7 really wore a uniform at the time. They were all wearing civilian
8 clothes, but they were soldiers all the same." And then you were
9 asked: "And they were armed?" "Of course they were. The hospital --"
10 and you were going to explain something when you were interrupted by
11 Mr. Wubben who asked you: "And was that, in your opinion, the military
13 So before you tell us whether it was the military police or not,
14 could you please give us a full answer to the question, whether those
15 people in Srebrenica were armed or not. You have already said, of course,
16 they were, and then you said: "The hospital ..." And you were going to
17 tell us something about the hospital.
18 Thank you, Mr. Jones, for pointing that out.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was a guard standing outside
20 the hospital providing security. There was always a guard, and they took
21 shifts. Their task was to protect the hospital from unwanted arrivals,
22 and thus to protect the lives of nurses, doctors, and patients, as well as
23 to foil any acts of sabotage by Serbs. Acts of sabotage often occurred in
24 the free territory of Srebrenica, incursions by Serb sabotage units,
25 killing people and destroying property in the Srebrenica area. This was
1 one of their tasks, namely, to make the hospital a safe place for patients
2 to recover and to make sure that doctors and nurses had good conditions
3 for their work.
4 When I spoke about Srebrenica, those people were the Territorial
5 Defence, and no one had any uniforms. Maybe at a later stage, some people
6 were given camouflage uniforms that were obtained in whatever way and
7 supplied to the people in Srebrenica. Most of the soldiers, however, had
8 no uniform or weapons. Sometimes two or three persons had to share a
9 single rifle. Nevertheless, there had to be security for the hospital,
10 and whoever was providing security at any given point in time had to carry
11 a weapon.
12 Q. Thank you. Now, these guards --
13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for counsel, please.
14 MR. WUBBEN:
15 Q. These guards, these armed guards, did they form part of the armed
16 forces as being the military police, if so, or do you -- don't you know?
17 A. I don't know. I've never really wanted to know if those people
18 were military police or not. They were guards; that's all I needed to
20 Q. I come now to another issue, the issue of the situation in
21 Srebrenica in that period of time, August 1992, and later on. What
22 observations can you give to the Court of the situation in Srebrenica when
23 it comes to the local population and any refugees?
24 A. In that period of time, the conditions in that area were horrific.
25 If there ever was hell on earth, it must have been Srebrenica in 1992 and
1 1993. And as you know, 1993, 1994, and 1995 were, in actual fact,
2 something that brings shame to our civilisation. It was a time of famine,
3 1992 and 1993, a time of daily attacks against Srebrenica, a time of daily
4 shellings, a time of daily air attacks, a time of poverty, a time when
5 refugees were flooding in from the general Podrinje area; Han Pijesak,
6 Vlasenica, Zvornik, Bratunac. Some of the areas around Srebrenica were
7 occupied. It was a time that brings shame to late 20th century
8 civilisation. There was no medicine to treat people with, no anaesthetics
9 to be administered prior to surgery. It was a time when people with no
10 weapons were faced with a situation where they had to defend themselves.
11 They had no support and no supplies and nothing to give them a decent
12 chance of surviving in the area. Time seemed very long. A single day in
13 Srebrenica in that period seemed like an eternity. And some people spent
14 as long as three years, stayed throughout from 1992 to 1995, which was
15 when Srebrenica eventually fell.
16 This is a time that I do not wish to revisit, as a human being or
17 as someone who was personally involved --
18 Q. May I --
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Wubben, I do understand, of course, sometimes
20 when witnesses choose to give a more extensive answer than what they are
21 being asked. On the other hand, I must make it clear that if we continue
22 like this, this witness is going to be here for two weeks, easily. We
23 have barely started the part of his evidence which is really relevant for
24 the case that we have before us, I mean, and I invite you to go to the
25 head, straight away, as soon as you can, and the witness to please
1 restrict your answers. I mean, I usually give the following advice to
2 witnesses, Mr. Mujkanovic: Namely, that the secret of giving testimony is
3 to answer the whole question -- answer the question, the whole question,
4 and nothing but the question. Otherwise, I'm afraid you're going to be
5 here for a long time.
7 MR. JONES: Your Honour, if I may be so bold, the witness was
8 asked a very general question about his observations about the conditions
9 of life in Srebrenica. I think he gave a very full, poignant and
10 important answer, and we would certainly submit that the conditions,
11 appalling conditions in Srebrenica is highly relevant to this case, and so
12 I would beg to differ that the answer was in any way irrelevant. I would
13 submit that it is highly irrelevant.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm not referring to this answer, in particular, I'm
15 referring to all the answers that he has been giving. They are lengthy
16 and sometimes they give more information than what is being sought, and we
17 can't go on like this.
18 MR. JONES: The question was very general, was very open.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Wubben.
20 MR. WUBBEN: Your Honour, the question was not general and very
21 open. The question was focused on August, and to clarify my own position
22 in this respect, I'm very respectful towards an opinion when it comes to a
23 tragedy as responded by the witness, and that's why I didn't interrupt. I
24 interrupted him -- I waited for an interruption at that specific part that
25 I thought it might be ended. My question was very specific. The question
1 was: What was your observation upon your arrival in August 1992 regarding
2 the refugees? Earlier I tried to interrupt the witness and I was
3 prevented from it. That also took us a lot of time. For this particular
4 delicate, may I say, opinion-sharing by the witness, I had to respect --
5 to give him enough to express his feelings.
6 Q. My question, again, if you allow me, Your Honour, my question
7 again, Dr. Mujkanovic, and please keep it brief, what was your observation
8 of the situation in Srebrenica regarding the refugees? What could you see
9 in the streets of Srebrenica in August 1992?
10 A. I can see many people in the streets, many refugees. But you must
11 know that my job was not to watch refugees. Sometimes I would spend as
12 many as 36 or 40 hours on end in the surgical theatre, without ever
14 Q. Did that also, that situation, affect everyday lives in the
15 street, people being distributed with food, already in August 1992?
16 JUDGE AGIUS: I see that there may be a problem with
18 Dr. Mujkanovic, are you receiving interpretation or not?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I am, but there was a very
20 brief interruption towards the end.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: So it's a good thing that I keep my eyes open and
22 travelling from east to west, or from left to right. The question was the
23 following, by Mr. Wubben: "Did that also, that situation, affect everyday
24 lives in the street, people being distributed with food, already in August
25 1992?" This was the question.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't understand the question.
2 Are you expecting me to provide a brief answer to a question I don't
3 understand? That's impossible. What do people out in the street have to
4 do with food distribution? And I'm not sure what the link is imagined to
6 JUDGE AGIUS: I will not try to do that for Mr. Wubben.
7 Mr. Wubben, it's your question. Could you rephrase it in a way
8 that is more understandable for the witness.
9 MR. WUBBEN:
10 Q. Did the refugees referred to at that time, in August 1992, live in
11 the streets, or did they live somewhere else?
12 A. That's a different question, isn't it? At that time everyone had
13 a roof over their heads. Now, whether there were perhaps 15 or 20 people
14 living packed in a single house, that's another matter. But everyone had
15 some sort of accommodation, and there was no difference between the local
16 population and people who had come in from outside. They all had the same
17 treatment and enjoyed the same conditions.
18 Q. Did there come a time that that situation changed? I mean that
19 refugees started to live on the streets, or at least outside houses?
20 A. That's true. That was after Konjevic Polje and Cerska had fallen.
21 I'm talking about early March 1993. So from that time on until the
22 demilitarisation, tens of thousands of refugees from Konjevic Polje were
23 on their way to Srebrenica. Srebrenica could not put everyone up, so
24 people lived outside in the streets and in public buildings, wherever they
1 MR. WUBBEN: Please bear me a moment, Your Honour.
2 [Prosecution counsel confer]
3 MR. WUBBEN:
4 Q. When it comes to the hospital, you confirmed to the Judges,
5 Dr. Mujkanovic, that this was a war hospital, and my next question is:
6 Did Naser Oric ever visit the hospital to see the patients, if so?
7 A. Yes, very often, he used to come very often, and he would see the
8 patients. Whenever he came, he would first come to see me or the other
9 doctors, and then he would be accompanied during his tour of the hospital.
10 He would see patients and inquire about their help.
11 Q. What do you mean by "very often"? Every now and then, on a
12 regular basis, or every day?
13 A. Not every day, but not a week went by without him coming to visit
14 the patients.
15 Q. And why did he visit the patients?
16 A. He wanted to know about their health. There were many people
17 there who were wounded; most of the people there were, in fact. He wanted
18 to see what would happen to those people. Lots of limbs were being
19 amputated at the time. He wanted to know about those people, whether
20 their lives were in danger, whether they would make it. I think it was a
21 humane instinct that drove him to come and ask questions about the fate of
22 those people.
23 Q. Did he also have to visit -- no, sorry, I will rephrase my
24 question. Did he also visit the Serb detainees who were patients in your
1 MR. JONES: The witness said clearly that he didn't know what
2 detainees meant. There were Serbs, some of whom who might have been in a
3 private ward. There's another way of approaching the question without
4 putting "detainee" --
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I think you have to go back a few questions
6 before you can actually put this question, Mr. Wubben.
7 MR. WUBBEN: Okay. I will rephrase, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: I think the objection can only be sustained.
9 Yes, Judge Eser.
10 JUDGE ESER: Just for a matter of clarification of the language, I
11 remember that in earlier trials, the question has been phrased in terms of
12 prisoners. Now you speak of detainees. I don't know whether that is a
13 distinction in the Bosnian-Serbian language, so perhaps you could clarify
14 whether you mean the same with detainees and prisoners.
15 MR. WUBBEN: In my opinion, "detainee" is, in general, a person
16 who is under a form of secured guard, and a prisoner is a detainee who is
17 imprisoned and, as such, a special function of a building, is spending his
18 time in that building. That's the difference.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: This even makes it more clear that you have to go a
20 few questions back before you can put the -- just ask the witness --
21 you've got four more minutes to go before we break.
22 MR. WUBBEN: Yes.
23 Q. Did Naser Oric also pay special attention to Serb patients?
24 A. He paid the same sort of attention to everyone, Bosniaks and Serbs
25 alike. He wanted to know about everyone's health.
1 Q. Including Serb patients who were guarded?
2 A. Yes. Yes.
3 Q. And was there any information exchanged between the hospital and
4 the armed forces in Srebrenica at that time regarding those Serb patients?
5 A. There was no official exchange of information. There were some
6 conversations, though.
7 Q. And who did communicate that with the armed forces?
8 A. Each of us. I may have, Dr. Avdo, Dr. Ilijas, Dr. Avdic. Each
9 and any of the doctors could have been in a situation to orally report on
10 the health of a given patient. We did not write any official reports. We
11 would transmit information orally. Someone, for example, may have been
12 asking about a certain patient and then we would tell them, we would tell
13 them about the patient's health and our assessment.
14 Q. And had there also been medical reports drafted on behalf of such
16 A. No.
17 Q. Thank you.
18 MR. WUBBEN: Your Honour, I am now up to a new issue, and I would
19 prefer to request for a break.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: That's fine, Mr. Wubben.
21 We will have a short break of 25 minutes, starting from now.
22 Thank you.
23 --- Recess taken at 10.26 a.m.
24 --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Wubben.
1 MR. WUBBEN: Thank you, Your Honour. Thank you.
2 Q. Dr. Mujkanovic, I will ask you some questions about this time, the
3 first months of your arrival, August 1992, beginning September, and my
4 question relates to the armed forces, the TO, in Srebrenica. Can you
5 describe for the Judges the chain of command of the Territorial Defence in
6 Srebrenica at the times -- at the months of your arrival, August 1992?
7 MR. JONES: Sorry, Your Honour, I would prefer it if my learned
8 friend would just ask the witness to describe how it functioned or
9 something of that nature, because it does imply a chain of command which
10 didn't exist.
11 MR. WUBBEN: No, Your Honour, the functioning of the armed forces
12 is a total different question as a chain of command, as such. A chain of
13 command is another observation than how it functioned because that gave
14 way to a certain opinion.
15 MR. JONES: That's what appeared in the question, chain of
16 command. That's what I was objecting to.
17 MR. WUBBEN: Appearing in the question doesn't mean it was how it
19 JUDGE AGIUS: The first question ought to have been whether there
20 was a chain of command that he is aware of as far as the Territorial
21 Defence in Srebrenica is concerned. So answer that question first.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wasn't aware of the chain of
24 JUDGE AGIUS: That's it. Yes, Mr. Wubben, I don't think we need
25 to proceed any further.
1 MR. WUBBEN:
2 Q. Was there any command within the Territorial Defence in Srebrenica
3 at that time?
4 A. There was an organ, I'd rather say, called the staff of
5 Territorial Defence, made up by the commanders of the units that were
6 present in the area of Srebrenica.
7 Q. And my next question is: This staff of the TO, was that staff
8 also headed by a supreme commander, if so?
9 A. The supreme commander of the armed forces is the War Presidency,
10 and Naser Oric was commander of the defence of Srebrenica, as it was
12 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, because we are entering into a confusion
13 zone, as I see it.
14 You, in answering a question that was put to you earlier on, you
15 said that when you transferred to the Srebrenica hospital there, you
16 essentially became part of the armed forces of Srebrenica. Do you
17 remember saying that?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, not only upon my arrival in
19 Srebrenica. I became a member of the Territorial Defence in May 1992, a
20 Territorial Defence which was later to become the army of
21 Bosnia-Herzegovina, when I arrived to the war hospital in Kalesija. Since
22 then, and until I was demobilised, I was a member of the army of
23 Bosnia-Herzegovina. It was, therefore, in this capacity that I spent my
24 time in Srebrenica as well.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: But you said that you had also been appointed as
1 chief medical officer of the Srebrenica, et cetera, in September,
2 August -- August or September of 1992; do you remember that? And that as
3 such, you formed part of the military set-up there. Yes. Who were -- who
4 was your immediate superior?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was a member of the operations
6 staff since the second half of September 1992, that is, of the operations
7 staff of the Territorial Defence of Srebrenica. And at the time it was
8 already called the armed forces of Srebrenica. According to this
9 structure, Osman Osmanovic, chief of staff, was my superior.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: And who was Osman Osmanovic's superior?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Osman Osmanovic was chief of staff,
12 and his superior at the time was Commander Naser Oric.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.
14 Yes, Mr. Wubben.
15 MR. WUBBEN: Your Honour, may I please clarify also with respect
16 to my questions were focusing, indeed, on August and perhaps beginning of
17 September, because then there is this change in staff. And I will refer
18 to that also with a few --
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead for the time. I apologise to you for
20 having interrupted you, but we need to move.
21 MR. WUBBEN: Yes.
22 Q. Now, with respect to the Territorial Defence, was there at the
23 time in August already a staff functioning?
24 A. There was a Territorial Defence staff, and I've already stayed
25 that it was made up mostly of the commanders of the local units present in
1 the area of Srebrenica.
2 Q. And who headed that staff of local commanders? Who was chairing
4 MR. JONES: Again, if anyone. It may be that it's completely
5 disorganised and that needs to be left open rather than it being suggested
6 to the witness that there was necessarily a commander, which there might
7 not have been.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes --
9 MR. WUBBEN: Your Honour --
10 JUDGE AGIUS: -- I think that's a perfectly legitimate objection.
11 It's a question of how you phrase your questions, that's all, Mr. Wubben,
12 because ultimately we will get there just the same, I mean we will get to
13 that question.
14 When you refer -- no, I will not phrase the question for you.
15 It's your problem.
16 MR. WUBBEN: I will proceed.
17 Q. Did you took part of such a staff or a staff meeting?
18 A. I did not take any part in the work of the Territorial Defence
20 Q. Was Naser Oric, to your knowledge, part of that staff?
21 A. I don't know.
22 Q. Can you give me the names of local commanders and their units who
23 formed part of that staff?
24 A. I will try to remember them. The units were established on the
25 territorial principle, according to the area they were established in, so
1 that the Territorial Defence unit in Suceska was commanded by Zulfo
2 Tursunovic. The units active in the south-east of the Srebrenica
3 municipality, namely Kragljevode, Osmace, Skenderovici, were, I believe,
4 commanded by Nedzad Bektic, Senaid Tabakovic, and I don't recall who else
5 there was. And the unit of the Territorial Defence in Biljega was
6 commanded by Ahmo Tihic. As for the town proper of Srebrenica, there were
7 two units, one commanded by Atif Ustic and the other by Hakija Meholjic.
8 There were also units in the south-east of the Srebrenica enclave, namely,
9 the areas of Potocari, Pale, Likari, but I don't recall who the commanders
10 of these units were.
11 So when I said that the staff comprised commanders of these units,
12 I meant to say that it was a rather informal group of people who simply
13 conferred to see how they could effectively stand ground and put up
14 resistance and defend Srebrenica.
15 Q. I have a question with regard to a staff meeting. You referred to
16 this staff meeting as a couple of local commanders, but is it correct that
17 you, for yourself, met with Naser Oric and some of his men at the PTT
18 building for a staff meeting, in August?
19 A. The PTT building was opposite the hospital, some 30 metres from --
20 across the hospital. Oftentimes, time and work permitting, I would cross
21 the street and meet different people there, talking to them informally.
22 So I never took part in any formal meeting of a staff or any other
23 military institution.
24 Q. And what about an informal meeting, a discussion together with
25 staff? Were you ever present at such a meeting?
1 A. I can't recall taking part in any meetings in this particular
2 period, in this one month. It was rather that I was getting to know these
3 people, because you have to know that it was my first time in Srebrenica
4 at the time. I knew no one. I didn't even know where Srebrenica was
5 located earlier on. And this is why I used my spare time to get to know
6 the people there, and we talked about different matters, among other
7 things, how to defend ourselves from the attack and the aggression best.
8 Q. Now, Dr. Mujkanovic, I will proceed to show you a number of
9 documents, and as much as possible - original documents - ask you for --
10 most of them, for your comments. In relation to that, I have a prior
11 question. Will you please clarify or confirm whether or not you are
12 familiar with the signature of Naser Oric at the times in Srebrenica?
13 JUDGE AGIUS: I think you have to start with that question first
14 and foremost, Mr. Wubben, and ask the witness to explain to us how come,
15 if he is familiar with Naser Oric's signature, how come he is familiar
16 with it.
17 MR. WUBBEN: I thought, Your Honour, with all respect, that that
18 was my question.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: I didn't understand it to be that.
20 MR. WUBBEN:
21 Q. Are you familiar with the signature of Naser Oric at the time
22 in -- at your time in Srebrenica?
23 A. Later on, I had occasion to -- when I would receive a slip of
24 paper from Naser Oric at times when he was unable to reach the hospital
25 but was interested in knowing what the condition of certain patients was,
1 or when he had some private matter he would inquire me about, to see his
2 signature on such slips of paper and to become familiarised with it.
3 Q. Did that happen often, throughout the period of time during the
5 A. Not that often.
6 Q. What was the meaning of those papers signed by him? Was there a
7 special function?
8 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't understand the question, Mr. Wubben.
9 MR. WUBBEN:
10 Q. Why --
11 JUDGE AGIUS: I think you need to rephrase it.
12 MR. WUBBEN:
13 Q. Were -- these papers signed by Naser Oric, were these special
14 documents or other kinds of documents, papers?
15 A. These were no documents. These were simply messages on slips of
16 paper. And it was in March or April 1993 that this practice intensified,
17 when refugees were already fleeing from Srebrenica to Tuzla, that he would
18 want to get in touch with me personally and could not otherwise because he
19 was occupied, because this was at the time of the most intensive attacks
20 on Srebrenica. It was from early April until the 17th of April, 1993,
21 when he would send messages to me to the effect that certain wounded
22 people had to be evacuated before some others, and matters to that effect.
23 So these were no documents, really.
24 MR. WUBBEN: I need now the assistance of the usher. Please, will
25 you put on the ELMO Exhibit number 73.
1 MR. JONES: Your Honour, may I just say that we -- based on what
2 this witness has said, we would object to this witness being asked to
3 authenticate the signature of Naser Oric. In our submission, there hasn't
4 isn't a sufficient foundation. In most legal systems, I imagine around
5 the world, there are two or three ways of proofing -- of proving
6 signature, either by the person who wrote it or the person who saw the
7 person actual sign the document, or by someone who has corresponded
8 regularly with the person. I have extracts from the relevant law in the
9 United Kingdom. I gather it's the same in Bosnia-Herzegovina. And it's
10 not a question of weight, it's a question of admissibility. If a person
11 is just going to, in our submission, guess that something is a signature
12 from 12 years ago, we would submit that that's unsafe, that's a very
13 unsafe procedure to be permitted. In our submission, that there is
14 insufficient foundation for this witness to purport to authenticate the
15 signatures of Naser Oric. And if it's a matter we need to go into, I have
16 extracts from Archibald just to show what the procedure is in the United
17 Kingdom. I imagine it's the same in Your Honours' jurisdictions.
18 MR. WUBBEN: Your Honour --
19 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. I don't think you're exempted from
20 answering that. Certainly guessing is one thing. But looking at a
21 signature and telling us if, according to him, that signature resembles
22 the one he knows to be of Naser Oric, that's definitely admissible, and
23 that's how we will proceed.
24 MR. JONES: My objection --
25 JUDGE AGIUS: He's already told us that -- of course we are not
1 proving that that is, indeed, the signature of Naser Oric because the
2 witness is telling us so. But the witness, of course, has every right to
3 be asked a question by the Prosecution whether, to him, that is the
4 signature of Naser Oric. Then we decide whether it's the signature of
5 Naser Oric or not later on.
6 MR. JONES: Yes, I understand that point, Your Honour. My
7 objection is to say is there's insufficient foundation because he neither
8 saw the document signed by Oric and he hasn't corresponded regularly with
9 him. And so our submission is --
10 JUDGE AGIUS: I think it's exactly that. He told us that he used
11 to receive regularly these notes from -- according to him, from Naser
13 MR. JONES: My objection is on the record.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. What I wanted to know is whether these notes
15 were signed by -- were signed in any way.
16 Were they signed? And how were they signed? These notes that
17 Mr. Wubben asked you about, that you told us that used to receive
18 inquiring about patients in the hospital, you said they would be from
19 Naser Oric. How would you know that they would be from Naser Oric?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They would be brought over by a
21 courier who told me, "These were sent to you by Naser Oric." These would
22 even by incomplete slips of paper containing a message, saying Please do
23 this or that, or Could you please help with this or that.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Were they usually signed, or not?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were always signed.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: And how were they signed?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were signed in hand, at the end
3 of the text.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, but what would the signature say? Would it say
5 "Naser Oric"? Would it say "Oric"? Would it say "Naser"? What would it
6 say, or what would it show?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was a signature. Not a name
8 and a surname but a signature.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: All right, let's proceed.
10 MR. WUBBEN: Thank you, Your Honour. Just very, in brief, my
11 response to Defence counsel would be: That criterion is not as stated by
12 him but a ruling by your own Chamber in October, that when it comes to
13 authentication everything is admitted unless your Chamber finds out it is
14 manifestly inappropriate. And that is a wider range --
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's not waste time, Mr. Wubben. Let's proceed,
17 MR. WUBBEN: On Sanction there is, Your Honour, the English
18 translation --
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, but I want to see the signature.
20 MR. WUBBEN: -- on the ELMO is the document. Can the usher please
21 show the document on the ELMO, if so.
22 MR. JONES: Can we be told which document it is?
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
24 MR. WUBBEN: Document 73.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: P73?
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 MR. WUBBEN: P73, yes. And P73 is -- has the ERN number 02075808.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Your question.
3 MR. WUBBEN:
4 Q. My question is: Do you recognise this signature?
5 A. This signature does look like Naser Oric's signature.
6 Q. I refer now to the text, Dr. Mujkanovic. The text is headed, and
7 I'll read out: "Srebrenica TO," and the date with the place, Bajramovici,
8 20th of May, 1992, a decision. And the wording goes: "The Srebrenica
9 municipal TO staff is hereby informed ..."
10 Now, the list goes on "as the following shall be appointed to the
11 Srebrenica TO staff." And I quote:
12 "Naser Oric, as commander of the Srebrenica TO staff ..."
13 JUDGE AGIUS: I think the witness can read.
14 MR. WUBBEN: Okay.
15 Q. Please read the names, Dr. Mujkanovic, as suggested by the Judge,
16 from 1 up to 7.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Give him a chance to read it, and then put your
19 MR. WUBBEN: Yes.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've read it.
21 MR. WUBBEN:
22 Q. Dr. Mujkanovic, these names and the positions mentioned, are these
23 names and positions consistent with your experience from August 1992 in
25 A. I know some of the people named here; others I don't.
1 Q. And who do you know of the list? Can you confirm?
2 A. I know Naser Oric, Atif Ustic, Zulfo Tursunovic, Hamdija. I know
3 Bogilovic Becir, but I don't Sevket Djozic and --
4 THE INTERPRETER: I didn't catch the last name.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: The interpreters didn't catch the last name. You
6 said you didn't know Sevket Djozic and --
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Ahmo Tihic. But I didn't know
8 Djozic Sevket.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Did you know Ahmo Tihic?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I did.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: There was only one person you didn't know from this
12 list, and that was Sevket Djozic.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Wubben.
15 MR. WUBBEN:
16 Q. My next question is: Now, those names you know, at the time in
17 Srebrenica, from August, were the positions linked to those names
18 consistent with your experience in Srebrenica?
19 A. I knew some of them, and some I didn't. I knew about Atif Ustic,
20 that he was commander of Suceska, or rather, commander of the unit in
21 Srebrenica. I knew about Zulfo Tursunovic, that he was commander of
22 Suceska. Hamdija Fejzic, I didn't know that he was in commander of
23 anything. Sevket, I didn't know. Bogilovic, I didn't know, and I knew
24 that Ahmo Tihic, that he was in the area of Biljega, that he was commander
25 there. But I learned about this later on, not the moment I arrived in
2 Q. But did you experience that these persons are functioning in that
3 position, as mentioned?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Did you know of their position, as such, as you confirm it now,
6 today, for the Judges?
7 MR. JONES: I don't understand that. He just said that he didn't
8 have experience of it. If he's then being asked, Well, do you know if
9 they occupied those positions, then fine. But what's he supposed to have
10 confirmed today before the Judges? I don't know.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: I agree with you, Mr. Jones. Would you rephrase the
12 question if you, indeed, want to put that question.
13 Q. Was it known to you, at the time you were in Srebrenica, that --
14 and I'll start with the names you're familiar with, that Naser Oric was
15 commander of the TO staff?
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Wubben, I hate to interrupt you, but he's
17 already told us each, one by one. I think barely a minute ago he went
18 through the whole list and said what he knew as far as the position
20 [Trial Chamber confers]
21 MR. WUBBEN: So far, Your Honour, he has not confirmed that with
22 respect to Naser Oric, so I will repeat that question.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. All right. Ask him about Naser Oric
24 only, because the rest he has -- although even I think I heard him say so,
25 but ...
1 MR. WUBBEN: I might be mistaken, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: It's okay. Go ahead, but ask that question only,
3 please, and let's proceed.
4 MR. WUBBEN: Yes.
5 Q. Can you confirm that it was known to your experience that Naser
6 Oric was, indeed, commander of the Srebrenica TO staff at the days of your
7 stay in Srebrenica?
8 A. I stayed in Srebrenica from the 5th of August to the 22nd of
9 April. You must specify the period of time you have in mind. During the
10 nine months I stayed there, I knew that he was commander, and I knew who
11 was which commander. But are we talking about early September 1992?
12 Because that's how you read you. If we're talking about that period in
13 time, I knew nothing about how the Territorial Defence was structured, nor
14 did I want to know. Occasionally, I met some of the local commanders, but
15 I was not aware of a formal body named "Staff," nor did I know that the
16 staff was led by Naser Oric. I knew that Naser Oric was commander of the
17 Srebrenica defence, but I was unaware of how this functioned in terms of
18 structure and organisation, or any possible links. I didn't want to know.
19 I can talk about the second half of September, when I formally
20 became a member of the operations staff. Now, this is something that
21 perhaps I could tell you about, but I'm afraid I can't tell you anything
22 prior to my arrival, or about the first month following my arrival. I had
23 no real desire to know more about the structure or organisation of the
24 military bodies. I knew nothing about how these were structured. I must
25 say that, even if a specific structure was in place, it certainly didn't
1 work in the way that some of these documents seemed to suggest. The only
2 thing that happened was people were trying to get themselves organised to
3 fend off the attacks of the army of Republika Srpska and the army of
5 Most of the villages had their own units. They had guards.
6 People were holding the line to keep the enemy from breaking through,
7 storming the villages and massacring the local population. Now, whether
8 two or three or four months after the aggression broke out someone
9 actually --
10 Q. I apologise, Dr. Mujkanovic, you answered my question. Thank you
11 for that, and let's limit the answering of my questions towards the
12 issues, and I apologise for interrupting you. Let's go to the following
13 document, P74.
14 MR. WUBBEN: Usher, please, will you assist me. P74, ERN
16 Q. Witness, will you please take a look at this document and the
17 signature. Do you recognise the signature?
18 A. It is quite illegible. Half of the signature is covered by a
19 stamp. Based on what I see here, I'm unable to confirm whether this looks
20 anything like Mr. Oric's signature. The other half of the signature may,
21 perhaps, be a little like it, but I can't be certain.
22 Q. My question relates -- my following question relates to the
23 content of this document. It is a decision dated -- Bajramovici, 20 May
24 1992 and I quote: "Becir Bogilovic" - further on - "appointed the
25 temporary police commander in the town of Srebrenica." Within the
1 statement of reasons, and I quote: "Becir Bogilovic is hereby tasked with
2 gathering policemen and reviving of the service for protecting law and
4 Did you read that, Dr. Mujkanovic?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Is, according to your experience, this decision being implemented
7 in practice in your time at Srebrenica?
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Which time? You need to be precise.
9 MR. WUBBEN: August.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: August.
11 MR. WUBBEN:
12 Q. August and later on.
13 A. I met Becir Bogilovic perhaps a month after I arrived in
14 Srebrenica. The position he held then was chief of the public security
15 station. I have no idea about the date of his appointment, or pursuant to
16 which specific decision he was appointed.
17 Q. But was he acting as being in charge of the temporary police or
18 the police in the town of Srebrenica?
19 A. I don't know about temporary. There was civilian police. Whether
20 it was of a permanent or temporary nature is not something that I can say.
21 But there was a civilian police presence in the town of Srebrenica. And
22 as I said, when I met Becir Bogilovic, he was chief of the public security
23 station in Srebrenica.
24 MR. WUBBEN: Next document, usher, please, P75, ERN number
25 02075808 -- again, please, 020705810.
1 Q. Please take a look at the document, Dr. Mujkanovic. My question
2 is: Do you recognise the signature?
3 A. It looks like Naser Oric's signature.
4 Q. In this document -- in this document, persons are mentioned. Will
5 you please read the redaction under "Decision." That's the persons at 1,
6 2, 3.
7 A. I've read this.
8 Q. Now, this is a decision of the 26th of May, 1992, of the
9 Territorial Defence staff, a decision to expand the Srebrenica TO staff
10 with new members. Those names, is it, to your -- is it -- is that
11 consistent with your experience that those people named in that decision
12 did take part of the Srebrenica TO staff?
13 MR. JONES: Your Honour, if I may, a couple of points, really.
14 First is we've objected to the authenticity of all these documents, but if
15 it's anything it's a purported decision, we're not accepting, and it
16 shouldn't be suggested that this is a decision that we all know is a
17 decision of the TO Staff that may be a forgery. But secondly, I'm sure
18 we've all noted that the date is May. We're talking about three months
19 before this witness arrived, and he's also said repeatedly that he doesn't
20 know the structure of the TO staff.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: No, he didn't know the structure in August.
22 MR. JONES: Right. But it's just the -- the inherent
23 suggestiveness of showing him document after document of possibly false or
24 forged documents and saying, Is this -- Is your experience consistent with
25 the facts stated here, is, in my submission, is going to lead to very
1 misleading evidence being given. It would be a lot simpler if Mr. Wubben
2 would just say: Atif Krdzic to say, Do you know him, do you know what his
3 function was in August? In fact, an exercise -- we could even dispense
4 with the documents. He could simply ask -- ask the witness --
5 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please slow down.
6 MR. JONES: I'll slow down. He could simply ask questions about
7 people and their functions, and if later he wants to match that up with
8 the documents, then fine. But to place document after document in front
9 of this witness and try to get him to confirm that somehow these documents
10 have any value is, in my submission, objectionable.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, let's go about it in a different manner.
12 Witness, you have read that this document that you have been
13 handed by our usher, there are three names there, Atif Krdzic, Nedzad
14 Bektic, Senaid Tabakovic. Did you know these persons, or did you come to
15 know these persons?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I met Atif Krdzic sometime in
17 September of 1992. I met Nedzad Bektic in late September 1992. I met
18 Senaid Tabakovic sometime in November 1992. I did meet these people. I
19 told you when I met them. But again, I can't confirm the authenticity of
20 this decision simply because it was written, produced, at a time when I
21 was still not in the Srebrenica area. I am not aware of this decision or
22 anything that it seems to indicate, the setting up of a staff. I did know
23 these people personally, however, and I told you specifically when I met
24 each of them.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: This document alleges that Atif Krdzic, apart from
1 being a member of the Srebrenica TO staff, which I don't want you to
2 comment about, he was also organiser of armed resistance against the
3 aggressor in the area of Osmace. Were you aware of that fact? I think
4 you need to say "Da" or not, because the interpreters need to hear your
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: The same question with regard to Nedzad Bektic. It
8 is alleged that he was organiser of armed resistance in the area of
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: And it's also alleged in this document that Senaid
12 Tabakovic was one of the organisers of armed resistance in the area of
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: You're aware of these facts.
16 Yes, Mr. Wubben.
17 MR. WUBBEN:
18 Q. Last question: Are you aware that one or more of these names, of
19 these persons mentioned here, functioned as a member of the Srebrenica TO
21 JUDGE AGIUS: I think he has already answered that question. Yes,
22 anyway, if you haven't, please answer it now.
23 A. I said I didn't know, didn't I? It's before I arrived; therefore,
24 there is nothing I can say about that.
25 MR. WUBBEN: Let me try again, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: He's already told us that, for the first period
2 during his stay in Srebrenica, he wasn't even aware of the existence of a
3 so-called Srebrenica TO staff.
4 MR. WUBBEN: Yes, of course, and what I asked him, Your Honour,
5 is, is it, according to your experience when you were in Srebrenica, that
6 these persons were functioning at that time as members of the TO staff.
7 That's the question. Not in reverse, earlier in time to May, because he
8 can't testify about that.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: But if he's --
10 Did you ever, at any time, come to know about the existence of the
11 Srebrenica TO staff? Srebrenica Territorial --
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I never came to know about the
13 Srebrenica TO staff. What I said was that there were a group of people,
14 local commanders, these amongst them, who would meet and discuss the ways
15 in which to resist the aggressor. I was never aware of any decision or a
16 formal document at the time to set up a Srebrenica TO staff.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: So the only question that you can put to the
18 witness, Mr. Wubben, is whether, to his knowledge, these three persons
19 ever formed part of the staff that he was aware of? Not of the Srebrenica
20 Territorial staff. The staff that he's been continually referring to,
21 this loosely structured -- according to him, because that's how he
22 described it in the first place.
23 MR. WUBBEN: Point taken, Your Honour. I will continue with --
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, but you have to ask the question, because it's
25 an important question. You can't ask him whether he -- to his knowledge,
1 they were members of, and participated as members of, the Srebrenica TO
2 staff, because at no time did he come to know of the existence of a
3 so-called Srebrenica TO staff. But he has told us that he is aware that
4 there was a staff at the time.
5 Did these three persons, to your knowledge, form part of that
6 staff, in August, when you arrived? In August of 1992. You told us that
7 there was a staff.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What I told you is that there was an
9 informal, I'm saying informal, group. I didn't see it as a staff at the
10 time. It was an informal group with local commanders who would come to
11 Srebrenica from as far as 20 or 30 kilometres away. They would come to
12 attend meetings, to deal with certain problems. I'll say it again: I was
13 not aware of the existence of any TO staff, and I also said I wasn't
14 interested, and I also said that my task and my job at the time was quite
15 different on account of which there's nothing I can tell you about the
16 existence of any TO staff that was organised in such and such a way.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: The question, therefore, goes back to what you've
18 just said. This informal gathering, informal group, to your knowledge,
19 did Atif Krdzic belong to that group? Did Nedzad Bektic belong to that
20 group or come for meetings of that group? Did Senaid Tabakovic, I think
21 you told us he already did, belong to that group?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I told you when I met those people.
23 I can't speak about August. I said that I met Atif Krdzic late in the
24 year. I heard that there was a commander named Atif Krdzic in the
25 south-east of the Srebrenica area. I didn't even know what the man looked
1 like. I had heard of Nedzad Bektic, but I didn't know what he looked
2 like. I had heard of Senaid Tabakovic. I had no idea what he looked
3 like. I knew he was a local commander in the Skenderovici area. But I
4 only met them one at a time. I didn't have time to go around and meet all
5 these people. I met them when they came to see me, when they brought a
6 problem of their own to the hospital. That's when I met them.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Meeting them and coming to know them is one thing.
8 Knowing that they became part of this informal group that you mentioned is
9 another. And My question precisely is whether, to your knowledge, in
10 August of 1992, these three persons, or any one of these three persons,
11 formed part of this informal group? It's not when -- I'm not contesting
12 when you came to know them personally, but it seems that you knew that
13 there was a group, an informal group, in August. I'm asking you whether
14 you knew also that these three persons formed part of that group in
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes what?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't know.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: All right, okay.
20 Judge Eser has a question.
21 JUDGE ESER: Just to clarify this point. Now, was it that you
22 just did not know the term of Territorial Defence, or was it -- you had
23 mentioned that there was some informal gatherings, and that these three
24 people belonged to this gathering, where they would come together. Now,
25 you had said so, testified so, on these terms. Now, can you confirm that
1 there was some sort of a group, whatever you call it, at least that there
2 was a group, and that these people, even if you did not know them
3 personally at that time, had been part or taking -- participating in this
5 MR. JONES: Can Your Honour please put the question in an open
6 way, because leading questions from the Bench are even worse. Possibly
7 these people were simply coming and going into Srebrenica without
8 belonging -- I'm not even sure if one can belong to a gathering. But if
9 the witness could simply be asked whether -- were these -- a very open
10 position, like did this people come and go occasionally, meet informally,
11 or was there a slightly more formalised group? I'd hate to have a leading
12 question like that coming from the Bench.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: It's already -- the question acknowledges that it
14 was an informal group.
15 In the meantime, Registrar, please, because I was just trying to
16 go back a few pages to find something in the transcript, going back to
17 about an hour ago, which I wanted to question the witness about, but it
18 seems that my -- is just blocked. It's not moving. The transcript on the
19 main monitor is scrolling perfectly, but on my laptop, it's blocked. I
20 don't know what's happening. And it seems it's blocked here.
21 All right. It's moving now. All right, okay. One moment,
22 please, because I need to check something.
23 Earlier on, I'm referring to page 30 -- bottom of page 36, the
24 last part of page 36, and the beginning of page 37. You will recall that
25 we were dealing with -- let's start -- page 35, rather, it went to line
1 20 -- 21, Mr. Wubben: [As read] "Now, with respect to the Territorial
2 Defence, was there at that time in August already a staff functioning?"
3 And the witness answered, "there was a Territorial Defence staff, and I've
4 already stated that it was made up of the local commanders present in the
5 area of Srebrenica." Question: "And who headed that staff? Who was
6 chairing that," and then there was an objection from Mr. Jones, saying
7 again it may be not complete -- needs to be left open, et cetera. Mr.
8 Wubben and me, I said that that was a perfectly legitimate objection, and
9 you asked the witness, line 16, on page -- "Did you took part of such a
10 staff or a staff meeting?" I hope whoever is listening to me does not
11 think that my English is that bad. "I did not take part in any of the
12 works of the Territorial Defence staff." And then the question was: "Was
13 Naser Oric part of the staff?" And you answered "I don't know." And then
14 the question was: "Can you give me the names of the local commanders and
15 their units who formed who formed part of that staff." So we're talking
16 of staff all the time. And then your answer was: "I will try to remember
17 them. The units were established on the territorial principle according
18 to the area that they were established in so that the Territorial Defence
19 unit in Suceska was commanded by Zulfo Tursunovic. The units active in
20 the south-east of Srebrenica municipality, namely, Kragljevode,
21 Skenderovici, were, I believe, commanded by Nedzad Bektic, Senaid
22 Tabakovic, and I don't recall who else was there. And the unit of the
23 Territorial Defence in Biljega was commanded by Ahmo teach. As for the
24 town proper of Srebrenica, there were two units, one commanded by Atif
25 Ustic and the other commanded by Hakija Meholjic. There were also units
1 in the south-east of Srebrenica, namely, the areas of Potocari, Pale,
2 Likari, but I don't recall who the commanders of these units were." My
3 question -- seems to me I've been trying --
4 MR. JONES: Your Honour, may I --well, I think one has to read on
5 from there, because at the very next line he says: "So when I said that
6 the staff comprise commanders of the units, I meant to say that it was a
7 rather informal group --"
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes, yes.
9 MR. JONES: He's not talking about staff.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: My question is completely unrelated to whether it's
11 formal or whether it was informal. My question is: It seems to me that,
12 looking at what you said then and what you said now, that you were not
13 aware whether, for example, Nedzad Bektic formed part of this loose,
14 rather informal group of people, whether Senaid Tabakovic formed part of
15 this informal group of people. Already, about an hour ago, you told us
16 that you knew that they formed of that group, so how come that you're now
17 telling us that you don't know or that you didn't know?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think there may be a
19 misunderstanding on this point. I'm speaking about a specific document.
20 I'm not aware of any decisions in documents talking about certain people
21 being part of the staff, or becoming members of the staff. I stayed
22 exactly what I said; namely, there was an informal group of people
23 comprising unit commanders who came to attend certain meetings and talked
24 about how the town defence should best be set up. I'm not sure what its
25 name was, whether it was called staff or not. And I know nothing about
1 any decision of this kind in May or after. We're talking about that
2 decision. You asked me, Did I know about that decision, and I said, I had
3 no idea. I knew those people, but I also know that local commanders would
4 occasionally carry, that they would come individually or in a group, all
5 of them, and hold meetings, that sort of thing.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, but I'm not asking you about the decision, I'm
7 just asking you whether you were aware that these three persons, Atif
8 Krdzic, Nedzad Bektic, and Senaid Tabakovic actually did participate in
9 this informal group you described to us. It's not whether this document
10 is correct or not correct. I mean, we're not dealing with that.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The only thing I can tell you is
12 that these people were commanders of the units I mentioned earlier on, and
13 where they were situated territorially, and I can tell you that I met
14 these people. I can't tell you whether they were part of the informal
15 group or not, whether they did go and meet there or not. I know that the
16 people existed and that they were commanders of those units.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Wubben, he is your witness.
18 MR. WUBBEN: Yes, thank you, Your Honour.
19 Q. Later on, when the staff, the TO staff had been established in the
20 second half of September, were these people functioning in these
22 A. Yes, they were, as commanders of local units.
23 Q. Thank you.
24 MR. WUBBEN: I need the usher to show document P4. P4 has an ERN
25 number 01239504.
1 Q. Please take a look at this document, Dr. Mujkanovic.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Do you recognise the signature?
4 A. It does look like Naser Oric's signature.
5 Q. Now, Dr. Mujkanovic, will you please read this document that is --
6 appears to be, from the redaction, an order, Srebrenica, 15 June, 1992.
7 A. Yes, I've read it.
8 Q. And my question relates to this order, a specific part of it under
9 Roman I, second line: "All the local leaders are ordered to immediately
10 commence developing the organisation and establishment of the Srebrenica
11 TO units."
12 After that, the names of places, up to number 9, and linkage with
13 names are mentioned. My question is, Dr. Mujkanovic -- and again to clear
14 to you -- to make it clear to you, it's not about the document as such, an
15 authentication, it's about those namings of the TO and of persons involved
16 from which you already mentioned a couple. My question is: As from your
17 experience in August 1992, were these TOs, these local TOs organised as
19 A. Based on my experience from 1992, I didn't know whether they were
20 called Territorial Defence or otherwise. I only knew that they were units
21 organised according to a territorial principle. Now, whether they were
22 Potocari TO or Suceska TO, I couldn't tell. At the time I only knew that
23 units existed in the area of Suceska, Osmace, Biljega, Kragljevode,
24 Skenderovici, and so on. Accordingly, I cannot confirm that I knew that
25 these were TO, Potocari, Suceska, and so on. As for the latter part
1 relating to the war hospital, I can talk about that because I -- when I
2 arrived, Hasanovic was manager of the hospital.
3 Q. I apologise, Dr. Mujkanovic. My question was up to -- related to
4 1 up to 9, and I come back later to the issue under 10. If your
5 experience is that those names were linked to units rather than official
6 TO or TO staff, but if you link it -- the place to units instead of the
7 word "TO," is it correct, is it consistent with your experience, that the
8 persons named there had, indeed, organised or were commanders of these
10 A. Yes, except for the name under item 10. I don't recall the man,
11 Mustafa Durakovic, I never met him.
12 Q. You mean, Dr. Mujkanovic, under 9?
13 A. Nine, yes, that's correct. I apologise.
14 Q. Under 10, there are, and I quote: "services attached to the
15 Srebrenica TO." Can you confirm from your knowledge that such a war
16 hospital had been attached to the Srebrenica TO?
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Again, he hasn't conceded at any moment that there
18 was a Srebrenica TO. I mean, I can't suggest to you, of course, because
19 he's your question -- your witness. You need to find an alternative way
20 of presenting it, Mr. Wubben.
21 MR. WUBBEN:
22 Q. Is it your experience that Avdo Hasanovic had set up a war
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And has that war hospital been attached to the Srebrenica armed
2 A. The hospital served both the military and civilian purposes, for
3 all those who were wounded or injured. The doctors working therein were
4 soldiers at the same time.
5 Q. Is it your testimony that a signal -- signals and information
6 service was functioning who was set up by Hamed Alic?
7 MR. JONES: They are non-leading ways of asking all these
8 questions. Was there a signals and information service? If so, who set
9 it up.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, you are perfectly right, Mr. Jones.
11 MR. WUBBEN: I apologise.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Please rephrase your question, Mr. Wubben.
13 MR. WUBBEN:
14 Q. Was there a signals and information service functioning, in your
16 A. I wasn't aware of this.
17 Q. And --
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Did you know Hamed Alic?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I did.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: How -- what can you tell us about Hamed Alic? What
21 was he doing when you came to know him? Was he responsible for anything?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was perhaps one of the first ones
23 I got to know because he was working in the post office across from the
24 hospital together with a man by the name of Ibrahim Becirevic. He was
25 establishing the radio links with Srebrenica and its surroundings, because
1 sometimes the civilians had to get in touch with their relatives who were
2 out on the ground. And that's where I met him. And I believe that he was
3 there until mid-January 1993. After that, I never saw him again. He had
4 allegedly left the Srebrenica enclave.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Next question, Mr. Wubben.
6 MR. WUBBEN:
7 Q. Do you know the name Mirsad Halilovic?
8 A. Yes, I knew that man as well.
9 Q. In your experience, was he linked to the organisation as mentioned
10 under 10, sub C?
11 MR. JONES: Your Honour, I'm afraid I'm going to be on my feet
12 most this morning or this afternoon. The question is: What did Mirsad
13 Halilovic do, if anything? Otherwise it's leading.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Correct. So he's put the question for you.
15 You told us that you knew Mirsad Halilovic. Yes. What was he
16 doing there?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At the time I knew him, I didn't
18 know exactly what his function was. Later on, in October/November, I got
19 to know that he was chief of the military police.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Does that satisfy your curiosity, Mr. Wubben,
21 or do you want to put further questions?
22 MR. WUBBEN: Thank you, Your Honour. Thank you, Your Honour, and
23 I will finalise now -- I'm complete with this document, thank you. I will
24 go to another issue.
25 Q. Dr. Mujkanovic, do you recall a person named Kemal Mehmetovic?
1 A. I knew the man, yes.
2 Q. What was his nickname?
3 A. Kemo from Pale.
4 Q. At the time in Srebrenica, what was his function? Was he a
5 soldier or a civilian?
6 A. I can't say whether he held any function. I don't believe so.
7 Q. But does that mean that you don't know whether he was a soldier?
8 A. He was quite an odd personality. It's very difficult to say
9 whether he was a soldier or not. The only thing I can tell you is that he
10 did wear -- that he did carry weapons.
11 Q. Do you recall, in the beginning of August 1992, an incident took
12 place with a human head?
13 MR. JONES: Do you recall any incident involving Kemal?
14 JUDGE AGIUS: You create difficulties for me when you put such a
15 direct question. You can't put it the way you did.
16 MR. WUBBEN: I will --
17 JUDGE AGIUS: But now you have --
18 MR. WUBBEN: I was not the one who linked that question with a
19 certain person. That's the Defence counsel, Your Honour.
20 MR. JONES: From the context.
21 MR. WUBBEN: That's your --
22 MR. JONES: This also has nothing to do with the indictment.
23 Perhaps Mr. Wubben should --
24 JUDGE AGIUS: It does have to do with the credibility of other
25 witnesses as well, so let's -- let me take over for a while, and then I'll
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 give him back to you. And in the meantime, try to understand what I am
2 doing, both of you.
3 You've told us that you did know of a certain person, Kemal
4 Mehmetovic, that he was also known as Kemo from Pale; that he carried
5 arms, but that, to you, you are not in a position to tell us that he was a
6 soldier or that he had any specific function. How many times did you see
7 him, in Srebrenica, to start with?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'd seen him many times.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Is there --
10 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, what were you going to tell us?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He'd usually walk around the town,
13 had this small truck that he drove. He was very often intoxicated, drunk,
14 of a very bad temper, picked fights with people very easily, and that's
15 why people shirked away from him, avoided him. He was actually quite a
16 difficult personality in terms of his mindset.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Was there any particular event, when you saw Kemal,
18 that has stuck in your memory that you could tell us about? Some special
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not sure what event you have in
21 mind. There were always incidents in his vicinity. Not a day would go by
22 without him skidding the truck off to a ditch or walking the town drunk,
23 provoking people, picking on people, so that you would have to actually
24 specify the event that you have in mind.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: No, but was there any particular occasion which was
1 quite out of the ordinary - it's not just his usual behaviour, but it's
2 something beyond -- which goes beyond that - that struck you as something
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Probably you have the following
5 event in mind: In early August, immediately after my arrival in
6 Srebrenica, at the time I practically didn't know who he was, there was a
7 truckload of wounded people who were brought to the hospital and I wanted
8 to conduct my triage according to the degree of urgency based on their
9 wounds, because there was a large batch of persons who came across a
10 minefield. Many amputations had to be carried out, and we had to
11 prioritise among the wounded to see who ought to be operated on first.
12 There were many people in front of the hospital, trying to find
13 out if there were any relatives or members of their family among the
14 wounded. That was when Kemal showed up. He was perhaps some 20 or 30
15 metres away from the hospital, and I noticed him in the crowd. He showed
16 up holding a human head by the hair. Later on, I heard this story talked
17 about in the town, that he had brought a human head. I could not, with my
18 own eyes, ascertain that it was, indeed, a human head. I was looking at
19 him from about a 30-metre distance.
20 I believe he was responsible for another incident after this one,
21 and then he left the Srebrenica enclave. I believe it was sometime at the
22 end of 1992 that he left Srebrenica, but I don't know where he had gone.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: What other incident was he responsible for? Can you
24 be more specific?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Reportedly, there was a bloody
1 vendetta for some sort of an incident dating from before, a vengeance of a
2 sort, where he killed a man. There was a beating involved. I'm telling
3 you what I heard, not what I saw.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. All right, yes, he's back to you, Mr. Wubben.
5 MR. WUBBEN: Your Honour, I notice also the time. Is it scheduled
6 to have a break at a quarter past 12 or --
7 JUDGE AGIUS: You have seven minutes, but as I always do, I invite
8 the parties to select the right moment for a break. It's up to you.
9 MR. WUBBEN: I think this is the right moment.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: All right, okay. Twenty-five minutes
11 --- Recess taken at 12.23 p.m.
12 --- On resuming at 12.55 p.m.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Wubben, and I will invite Madam Vidovic or
14 Mr. Jones, I would like you to approach. I would like to tell you
16 [Trial Chamber and counsel confer]
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Mr. Wubben, one moment, because I must have
18 touched something here. All right, okay. No problem.
19 Let's continue, Mr. Wubben.
20 MR. WUBBEN: Thank you, Your Honour. I would like to ask the
21 assistance of the usher. Document P6, ERN number 01239515.
22 Q. Please, Dr. Mujkanovic, will you take a look at this document.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Do you recognise the signature?
25 A. The first half of the signature is covered by the stamp;
1 therefore, I cannot say with certainty that this is Naser Oric's
2 signature. The second half, though, looks much like his signature.
3 Q. Dr. Mujkanovic, this is a document with the heading "Srebrenica
4 TO," and the date is the 3rd of September, 1992. In September 1992, I
5 take it that you were in Srebrenica. Were you at that time familiar --
6 did you know this decision or a kind of decision like this?
7 A. I'm not receiving any interpretation.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: We have a technical problem. Could I ask you to
9 repeat your question. Maybe it's already solved.
10 Are you receiving interpretation now? Nothing. So it's not
11 solved, so there's no point in repeating the question. I will keep on
12 talking for a while until ...
13 Are you receiving interpretation now?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.
16 Mr. Wubben, sorry for that interruption.
17 MR. WUBBEN: I don't know, Your Honour, where to start, so I'll
18 start from the beginning.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: I think because obviously there was -- the number,
20 the channel number, had been changed so he couldn't have possibly received
21 any interpretations -- interpretation from the very moment we started
22 after the break.
23 MR. WUBBEN: Okay.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: But he was answering your questions before, so I
25 don't know what happened. He has told us so far that he cannot really
1 recognise the signature, although the part which is not superimposed by
2 the stamp seems to look similar to that of Naser Oric. And then you asked
3 him to have a look at the text of this document, and you said:
4 "Dr. Mujkanovic, this is a document with the heading "Srebrenica
5 TO," and the date is the 3rd of September, 1992. In September 1992, I
6 take it that you were in Srebrenica. Were you at that time familiar --
7 did you know this decision or a kind of decision like this?"
8 I have repeated verbatim what you had asked the witness. So that
9 is the question that you need to answer now.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not familiar with this kind of
12 MR. WUBBEN:
13 Q. Do you know, as of the -- of September 1992, the naming of, and I
14 quote, "staff of the armed forces of Srebrenica, the Srebrenica armed
15 forces staff"?
16 A. It was only once I became a member of the operations staff of the
17 armed forces of Srebrenica, in the second half of September, was I aware
18 of what was going on.
19 Q. We will come to that issue later on. Thank you.
20 MR. WUBBEN: Usher, will you assist me with the following
21 document: P176, ERN number 03720933.
22 Q. Dr. Mujkanovic, would you please take a look at that document.
23 A. I've had a look.
24 Q. Dr. Mujkanovic, do you recognise the signature?
25 A. The first part is covered by the stamp; it's illegible. The
1 second part looks like Naser Oric's signature.
2 Q. The wording of the document reads, in the head, "Srebrenica Armed
3 Forces Staff," the date, "Srebrenica, 3rd September 1992," and naming the
4 decision, "The operations staff of the Srebrenica armed forces shall be
5 established as the constituent part of the Srebrenica armed forces staff."
6 Is that decision, like that, consistent with your experience at
7 that time, in September 1992, in Srebrenica?
8 A. In mid-September, the second half of September, the operations
9 staff of Srebrenica was set up and I became a member. That's what I know.
10 This is the first time I see this decision, and I wasn't familiar with
11 this decision at the time. I do know that Osman Osmanovic was the chief
12 of the operations staff.
13 Q. And what you know about Osman Osmanovic, that is your experience
14 from September 1992.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Thank you. Following --
17 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, because he said -- the witness said this
18 is the first time he is seeing this decision.
19 Are you sure it's the first time you're seeing this decision?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I saw this decision when the OTP
21 showed me a copy. At the time I said that I'd never seen it before. I'm
22 just repeating what I've already stated. That was when I first saw this
23 decision, of course, in that case, this being the second time. My
24 understanding was -- you asked about me seeing this decision prior to the
25 last several days that I've spent here.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: No, because you said this is the first time you're
2 seeing this decision, and I have reason to believe that this is not the
3 first time you're seeing this decision; that, as you said, you were shown
4 this decision before. Do you remember, when was that, whether it was days
5 or months ago or years ago?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not years ago. I think the first
7 time this was shown me was in June last year, and then it was shown again
8 some days ago. But I thought your question was to the effect whether I'd
9 seen this decision while I was still in Srebrenica.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no, no, it's because you said this is the first
11 time you're seeing this decision. So basically, I take it, this is the
12 third time you're seeing it; it was shown to you in June, it was shown to
13 you some days ago, and you're seeing it now, today; correct?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Wubben.
16 MR. WUBBEN: I would like to move now to Exhibit number P79, and
17 I've been informed that the registrar will provide a copy of the English
19 Q. Please, Dr. Mujkanovic, take a look at this.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Why? We have an English translation. When it was
21 tendered way back, I don't know when, it was tendered with an English
23 MR. WUBBEN: You're correct, Your Honour. It should be the B/C/S
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, but we have the B/C/S version as well, so
1 what's wrong? I am not understanding.
2 [Trial Chamber and the registrar confer]
3 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Let's move ahead. But for your
4 information, Mr. Wubben, I know that you are using supposedly what you
5 refer to as the original, but in our records, we have this document in
6 B/C/S and in English, and it's marked, as you said, P79.
7 MR. WUBBEN: Thank you for this confirmation. And I add to it,
8 Your Honour, the ERN number 02078514.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
10 MR. WUBBEN:
11 Q. Dr. Mujkanovic, did you have a look at this document?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. This document reads in the heading "Operations Staff Srebrenica,"
14 and dated "Srebrenica, 19 September 1992." In short, it starts
15 with "Draft Decision," it is -- where it is signed, it has the reference,
16 chief of the operations staff of the armed forces, Osman Osmanovic. Do
17 you know Osman Osmanovic?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Is it your experience that he was, in fact, in September, indeed,
20 the chief of the operations staff of the armed forces, if so?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Now, will you please take a look further at the redaction of this
23 document, and there is a listing 1 up to 11.
24 A. I've read this.
25 Q. Above that there is a sentence that ends, and I quote, "proposes
1 that the operations staff of the armed forces in Srebrenica consists of
2 the following departments and people." Now, my question to you is:
3 When -- upon -- sorry, upon reading the names and the linked departments
4 or one organ and one functioning as a recording secretary, is it your
5 experience in your times in Srebrenica that these persons linked to those
6 specific parts were functioning in the operations staff?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. So to be specific, the persons mentioned 1 up to 11, that is, to
9 your knowledge, from September 1992, functioning within that operations
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Does that include that the person mentioned as Mustafa Salihovic
13 was, indeed, recording as the secretary of such a meeting, or don't you
15 A. He was there at the meetings I attended.
16 Q. And my question is: Was he recording at that meeting, or don't
17 you know?
18 A. What do you mean, "recording"?
19 Q. Taking minutes or writing down specific parts, what was discussed
20 or whatever, to record -- to make records.
21 A. Yes, by hand.
22 Q. Thank you.
23 MR. WUBBEN: The following -- next document, usher, please, is
24 number P8. P8 with the ERN number 01239518.
25 Q. This is a decision, Dr. Mujkanovic, and I'll read out the head
1 now: "Srebrenica Municipality Armed Forces War Presidency, Srebrenica,
2 14th of October 1992," and then there's a decision on naming and
3 appointing "Osman Osmanovic Srebrenica is hereby named and appointed as
4 the chief of staff of OS," armed forces. And then under 5: "This
5 decision comes into effect on the day of its adoption. The named and
6 appointed person must report immediately to the commander of the armed
8 When it comes to your experience in Srebrenica, from the time you
9 were there, is it, to your knowledge, an experience that the named person,
10 Osman Osmanovic, reported to the commander of the armed forces?
11 A. I assume so.
12 Q. What do you mean by "assume so," because either you have
13 experience as such report or you don't know.
14 A. I really can't say whether he reported to the commander of the
15 armed forces. I assume he did. But Osman did not report to me to say who
16 he had reported to. I really can't answer the question, whether he
17 reported to anyone, including the commander of the armed forces. I don't
18 know. I did say that I certainly assumed that he did.
19 Q. Do you know who was in the chain of command above Osman Osmanovic?
20 A. Above Osman Osmanovic in the chain of command, there was the
21 commander of the armed forces.
22 Q. And who was at the time the commander of the armed forces?
23 A. The commander of the armed forces at the time was Naser Oric.
24 MR. JONES: May I, Your Honour, just on this document. My learned
25 friend says it's headed "Srebrenica Municipality Armed Forces War
1 Presidency." In fact, it says "Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, opstina
2 Srebrenica," so Srebrenica municipality, "War Presidency." So the heading
3 itself doesn't say anything about the armed forces. The "OS" might have
4 misled my learned friend, being "Opstina Srebrenica" rather than "oruzane
5 snage," armed forces, but it's clear from the Bosnian.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you for that observation.
7 MR. JONES: I would also point out that this is signed by Hajrudin
8 Avdic, president of the War Presidency, to get that onto the record.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you for that observation, Mr. Jones, which is
11 MR. WUBBEN: I can confirm, Your Honour, that that's what is meant
12 by the OS.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: There is also confirmation of it by the first line
14 of the text. Again, you see "Opstina Srebrenica."
15 Yes, let's proceed.
16 MR. WUBBEN: The following document is P84, and I would like the
17 assistance of the usher to hand over to Dr. Mujkanovic a document. It is
18 a memo pad under the ERN number 02115040.
19 Q. Please take a look at this memo pad.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Are you familiar with any use of a memo pad or a war diary like
22 this within a TO, an army or ...
23 A. I'll try to be crystal clear about this. I have seen this
24 document before, but when I did was the first time. I did not know that
25 there was a document that talked about this writing, diary, whatever.
1 Q. Now, Dr. Mujkanovic, if you look --
2 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for counsel, please.
3 MR. WUBBEN:
4 Q. Dr. Mujkanovic, if you take a look at the book when it is -- the
5 diary when it is closed, totally closed, please, will you close the diary?
6 Thank you. If you take a look at it, are you familiar with memo pads or
7 war diaries or diaries used in armed forces who looks like this, this
9 A. I'm not. This is a notebook. It was used by the TO of the
10 Socialist Federative Republic of Yugoslavia.
11 Q. Do you mean that a book like that, a war diary like that, was
12 commonly used, as such, in the army?
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Usher, can we place it, a little bit, the cover I
14 mean, on the ELMO so that the public can see what we're talking about.
15 Yes, and can you open it up a little bit, please, just the first page.
16 Okay, you can remove it now. Thank you.
17 Yes, Mr. Wubben.
18 MR. WUBBEN:
19 Q. Dr. Mujkanovic, will you please go from the page, in the B/C/S
20 version you have in front of you, 02115042, and then page by page, to 46,
21 the last two.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: I suppose that's in the original or ...?
23 MR. WUBBEN: That's in the original.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: And what's the equivalent in English?
25 MR. WUBBEN: It's 6 -- 03090706 up to 010 --
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.
2 MR. WUBBEN: Sorry, not 010, 710.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, thank you, Mr. Wubben.
4 MR. WUBBEN:
5 Q. Now, if you take a look at the B/C/S, ERN number 02115042 and 43,
6 and that's English ERN 06 and 07, Your Honour --
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
8 MR. WUBBEN:
9 Q. There is on 07 -- and that's my English version, and
10 Dr. Mujkanovic, on your version, it is -- it's the version started with --
11 it is 42, and I quote, and I hope you will see it, please
12 confirm: "Second meeting of the armed forces operations staff." It's 44,
13 Dr. Mujkanovic. Is that correct? Do you see a heading like that on ERN
15 A. Yes, yes, I can see it.
16 Q. Now, in the page -- on the page with the ERN number, in English,
17 08, and in B/C/S, Dr. Mujkanovic, ERN 02115046, we see, and I quote,
18 heading started with, "Minutes, 3 October 1992."
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. When you earlier referred to a meeting you participated in, did
21 you participate in a meeting of the operations staff on the 3rd of
22 October, 1992?
23 A. No, I didn't.
24 Q. Please go to ERN 02115044, Dr. Mujkanovic, and 707 for the
25 English. There is a reference to a second meeting, as already confirmed
1 to you, of the armed forces operations staff. This second meeting, did
2 you participate in such a second meeting of the armed forces operations
3 staff as it is possible before the 3rd of October, 1992, in the order of
4 the diary?
5 A. No, I didn't.
6 Q. Now we go, prior to that second meeting, to ERN 02115042, that's
7 the B/C/S, and the English version is 03090706 [Realtime transcript read
8 in error "00790776"].
9 A. Yes, I did attend that one.
10 Q. So is that meeting --
11 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, because for the record, it -- the
12 English version is said to be 00790776, the last three digits are 706, or
13 should be 706 and 776. Yes, go ahead, Mr. Wubben, please.
14 MR. WUBBEN:
15 Q. Did you attend that meeting?
16 A. Yes, I did, the first one.
17 Q. Is it correct that there were -- at the meeting you experienced,
18 there were around nine members?
19 A. I can't remember how many there were, but it was a meeting of the
20 staff that I attended.
21 Q. Now, is it correct that -- if you recall, of course, can you
22 confirm that Osmanovic, Nedret, and the other names mentioned in the first
23 paragraph, took part in a discussion?
24 A. Whenever I attended, I took part in the discussions, so that much
25 is true.
1 Q. Can you confirm, as in the minutes further on, the name Osman
2 appeared, and there is a reference to, a military corps [sic] must be
3 formed. Do you recall that issue at the meeting?
4 A. A military corps? I don't really understand the term, the
6 Q. I take that for an answer, thank you. I will now proceed on the
7 part of the staff members. There is a listing 1 up to 10, including a
8 kind of bold arrow, there are persons named, and there are, well, units or
9 departments. Please read them.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Is it your experience that the staff members, indeed, performed
12 such duties or were linked to these kind of functions or departments?
13 A. After the establishment of the operations staff, all the staff
14 members worked in the different areas they were assigned to, as, indeed,
15 written down here.
16 Q. Under 1 up to 10.
17 A. Yes.
18 MR. WUBBEN: Your Honour, please allow me to repeat my prior
19 question, because I was -- noticed that when I asked the witness that a
20 person called Osman was referred to -- that a military corps must be
21 formed, that, indeed, it had been noted as corps instead of court, with a
22 T. So please allow me to ask that question again.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Certainly. And if need be, we will have the first
24 page of the diary, or whatever you call it, on the ELMO so that, if there
25 is a difficulty in the interpretation, we will be able to refer to the
1 specific entry.
2 Usher, could you put on the ELMO, please, ERN 042, 042, which is,
3 I suppose, the first page.
4 MR. WUBBEN:
5 Q. Please, Dr. Mujkanovic, look at the text under paragraph 1. They
6 are referring to the name Osman, and then "a military court must be
7 formed." Do you recall that an issue like that has been discussed?
8 A. At this particular meeting, following the establishment of the
9 operations staff, as indeed contained in these minutes, there was a
10 discussion about the establishment of units and about the organisation of
11 the armed forces in the area of Srebrenica, according to the military
12 doctrine, in other words, that platoons, companies, battalions, and
13 brigades are to be established, and whatever, of course, came under and
14 was entailed by the establishment of such units. There was also
15 discussion about the establishment of a military court.
16 Q. And what do you mean by military doctrine?
17 A. I mean to say that the units had to be established the way I said,
18 platoon, company, battalion, brigade, and the other military organisations
19 that come under it, up to the strength of a brigade.
20 Q. All right. Now, what had been said about this military court,
21 Dr. Mujkanovic?
22 A. Nothing else was said other than that a military court had to be
23 established as a component part of setting up military structures in the
24 area of Srebrenica.
25 Q. Now, my question is: We already have read through a part of this
1 page 42. Have you also took a look at page within -- 43?
2 A. Yes, I've taken a look.
3 Q. Can I take it that page -- the two pages, 42 and ending up with 43
4 of the war diary, are an accurate reflection of the minutes you took part
6 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment before you answer, because I don't quite
7 know how this was translated to you. Actually, I looked at you,
8 Mr. Wubben, because I heard you say "an accurate reflection of the minutes
9 you took part of." I think you meant to say "the meeting you took part
10 of," and I don't know how that was translated.
11 So we're talking of the meeting, and whether the minutes, what are
12 purported to be minutes, what you're reading now, reflects accurately what
13 went on during that meeting that you attended, Dr. Mujkanovic.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.
16 MR. WUBBEN: Thank you.
17 Q. I would like to move on to another document, P177, a decision, the
18 7th of February, 1993. That's ERN number 037209334.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. The first question is: Do you recognise the signature at the down
21 end? There are several signatures. One signature, and I quote in
22 English, "Srebrenica Armed Forces Commander," that signature, do you
23 recognise that signature?
24 A. The signature is quite illegible, and I cannot state with any
25 certainty that it does look like his signature.
1 Q. This is a document with the heading "War Presidency of the
2 subregion Srebrenica, Vlasenica, Bratunac, and Zvornik municipalities,"
3 dated Srebrenica, 7 February 1993. My question is: In the further
4 heading of the first part of this decision, it is referring to a War
5 Presidency of the subregion and the staff of the subregion, the armed
6 forces. Are you familiar with this subregion, to your experience?
7 A. I heard of the expression.
8 Q. But, to your knowledge, you don't know about -- you can't tell the
9 Judges about the functioning of the subregion, or the area involved?
10 A. I know approximately that there were certain activities taking
11 place geared to provide an effective defence for Srebrenica, Vlasenica,
12 Bratunac, and Zvornik, in late 1992 and early 1993, and that at the time
13 there was a discussion about grouping, amalgamating, units and setting up
14 a single authority for the area, in order for the human resources
15 important for the defence of the area, as well as the materiel and
16 technical equipment, to be utilised fully. Now, whether this subregion
17 was actually established or not, I cannot tell you because I never really
18 learnt whether it was established and whether it actually functioned as
19 such. I think that this was rather an idea of how to use the human and
20 materiel and technical potentials in the area for the defence.
21 Q. Had this idea been established in such a way that decisions were
22 made upon it, to execute, to implement, that idea?
23 A. I've said that I didn't know whether it was formed, and I said
24 that this Salihovic was president of the War Presidency of the subregion
25 because I know that at the time he was the one in charge for security and
1 intelligence in the staff. But I couldn't really give you a certain
2 judgement as to whether the subregion functioned or not. I was telling
3 you that this was an idea present in 1993 when it was thought that this
4 whole area should be united into a single region in order to increase its
6 Q. Thank you.
7 MR. WUBBEN: Your Honour, my next issue is a different issue, so
8 it seems reasonable to stop here.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: We will stop here for the day. I think it must have
10 been tiring for everyone, not least, of course, yourself, Mr. Wubben.
11 We'll reconvene tomorrow. Is it -- are we still working in this
12 courtroom tomorrow? You think you can check whether there is any other
13 availability, just in case? No. But keep checking. In case we can
14 transfer to some other courtroom, we'll do our best.
15 Dr. Mujkanovic, we have to stop here for today because we must
16 make the courtroom available for another case which will sit in the
17 afternoon. We will meet again tomorrow morning. Thank you.
18 In the meantime, it's important that you do not contact, or let
19 anyone contact you in relation to the matters that you are testifying
20 upon, okay? Thank you.
21 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.42 p.m.,
22 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 15th day of
23 February, 2005, at 9.00 a.m.