Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 6372

1 Tuesday, 22 March 2005

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Please be seated. So Madam registrar, yes. Madam

6 registrar, could you call the case, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is the case

8 number IT-03-68-T, the Prosecutor versus Naser Oric.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Mr. Oric, can you follow the proceedings

10 in a language that you can understand.

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours, ladies

12 and gentlemen. Yes, I can.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. Please sit down. Appearances for the

14 Prosecution.

15 MR. WUBBEN: Good morning, Your Honours and good morning to the

16 Defence. My name is Jan Wubben, counsel for the Prosecution, together

17 with co-counsel, Ms. Patricia Sellers and our case manager, Ms. Donnica

18 Henry-Frijlink.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, and good morning to you and your team.

20 Appearances for Naser Oric.

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. My name

22 is Vasvija Vidovic, together with Mr. John Jones, I appear on behalf of

23 Mr. Naser Oric. We have with us today our legal assistant, Ms. Adisa

24 Mehic, and our case manager, Mr. Geoff Roberts. Good morning also to my

25 learned friends from the OTP.

Page 6373

1 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you and good morning to you as well and your

2 team.

3 Before I ask if you have any preliminaries, my secretary has drawn

4 my attention, actually, that these photos that you handed sometime back a

5 few -- I think sometime last week, to form part of Dr. Stankovic's report,

6 do not have a number. They do have an ERN number.

7 How would you like us to have them filed and recorded?

8 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, part of our question was whether we

9 could hand them up to you to say that these are merely colour photos of

10 what you have or would you prefer that this go through the registrar as a

11 submission of filing. If it does, they will photocopy them and the colour

12 photos will again become black and white photos. That's what happened the

13 first time. That's why we tried to avoid that by handing that up. I

14 don't know whether there could be a disconsultation from the registrar not

15 to photocopy four copies of them, the ones that we distribute, or whether

16 we can use that as a submission that you look at to understand just the

17 contents of what's been filed. I put myself in your hands.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: In other words do I take it, Ms. Sellers, that the

19 ERN number that is shown here on each of these four pages, corresponds to

20 the ERN number on the black and white?

21 MS. SELLERS: Yes, it does, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay. Then can we substitute or just

23 insert them next to where we have the black and white ones, without giving

24 these any specific number? Can you live with that.

25 MR. JONES: Yes. I think that is what we've done.

Page 6374

1 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no. Definitely there is a difference between

2 coloured photos and black and white photos.

3 MR. JONES: Yes. It's fine with us, yes.

4 MS. SELLERS: Yes, Your Honour. We thank you for that practical

5 solution.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.

7 [Trial Chamber confers with registrar].

8 JUDGE AGIUS: So any preliminaries before ...

9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: One minor thing that I wanted to raise. We will

11 stop on Wednesday, as you know and then we will resume on the 4th when we

12 are supposed to have a video link. If there are problems with the video

13 link, in the meantime, between now and then, please do let us know,

14 particularly us and of course the Defence. I mean I know that you

15 definitely will let the Defence know before you will let us know. But we

16 would also like to be alerted should that be the case and also be informed

17 of what the alternatives are.

18 MR. WUBBEN: Yes, Your Honour. We will provide you with the

19 information.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Yes, let's wait for the witness.

21 [The witness entered court]

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning.


24 [Witness answered through interpreter]

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning, Mr. Bogilovic.

Page 6375

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: We are going to proceed with your cross-examination

3 today. I don't take it that we will finish today, but we will do our

4 utmost to finish tomorrow, and then you can go back home. Please take a

5 seat. You are still testifying under oath, in terms of your solemn

6 declaration. And may I just remind you to allow an interval of time

7 between question and answer so that you do not create problems to the

8 interpreters. Yes, Madam Vidovic. You may proceed.

9 Cross-examined by Ms. Vidovic: [Continued]

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Good morning, Mr. Bogilovic.

12 A. Good morning.

13 Q. You told us yesterday in your testimony that while you worked as a

14 police officer during the war, you heard many accounts by Muslim refugees

15 who reached Srebrenica, did you not?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. It is true that their accounts indicated that the same principle

18 of persecuting Muslims applied as that used by the SDS in east Bosnia?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. The next thing would be a call to the local -- by the local Serb

21 authorities for the Muslims to hand over their weapons. People would

22 mostly comply. The next thing would be shelling and then an infantry

23 attack where the local Serbs would join in usually. Is that not correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Arson, looting, murder. These were not crimes perpetrated by some

Page 6376

1 other soldiers of the army of Republika Srpska. None other in fact than

2 the local population reinforced by volunteers from Serbia as well as the

3 military and paramilitary units arriving from Serbia, is that not a fact?

4 MS. SELLERS: Excuse me, Your Honour --


6 [Microphone not activated]

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, what's your objection? I think I know what it

8 is but let me hear it.

9 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I don't believe that this witness has

10 testified that he had specifically spoken to people who said that. I

11 don't know whether this witness can testify to these patterns. I believe

12 that he is being presented a series of actually statements and he is

13 merely saying, yes. In terms of whether the local Serbs Republika Srpska

14 army, I do not believe that we've ever elicited that to his knowledge. On

15 the other hand, I would say that I understand some of these issues might

16 have been raised during his direct examination. I do not believe at this

17 point that that is completely the extent to which we're going into it is

18 relevant to the issues beforehand, but I do understand that, yes, he did

19 talk about some refugees coming in. I just want to clarify that for the

20 record.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. In fact certain issues that you raised

22 are very valid although not all. I hand in mind actually of interrupting

23 Ms. -- Madam Vidovic at a certain time arising out of a question that she

24 asked and then the witness answered and I will do that first.

25 You were asked, Witness, to draw a comparison between what was

Page 6377

1 happening in the vicinity, according to what you were being told by

2 refugees coming to Srebrenica, to what happened in eastern Bosnia. What

3 do you know about what happened in eastern Bosnia?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Based on the accounts of refugees

5 upon their arrival, we obtained information. We were told what had

6 happened. Those were refugees from the Visegrad area, the ones that we

7 had in Srebrenica as well as those from Rogatica, Han Pijesak and Bratunac

8 and Zvornik too.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: That is not eastern Bosnia though, is it?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think it should be, that is the

11 Podravanje area, isn't it?

12 JUDGE AGIUS: So, that would be --

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I may of assistance, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: You consider it to be eastern Bosnia. The next

15 question that you were asked by Madam Vidovic, this seems to distinguish

16 between the involvement of Republika Srpska army, the involvement of the

17 local citizens and inhabitants and the involvement of the Serbian army.

18 I do understand that this is relevant, in terms of some of the

19 evidence that we heard recently, but also before.

20 We need to dissect it however, Ms. -- Madam Vidovic because the

21 way you put it can only ask for a confusionary answer or an answer which

22 will not be convincing to start with.

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I will try to rephrase

24 my question.

25 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, it's true, isn't it, that the local Serb population

Page 6378

1 was involved in the burnings, lootings and killings in the Podravanje

2 area.

3 A. If I may use a piece of information that I obtained from a lady

4 citizen in Srebrenica.

5 Q. Very well. You may do so.

6 A. I talked to her and she said that she had received word that her

7 house would be set on fire. She went to the police station. She found a

8 duty officer who was an acquaintance of hers, a neighbour of hers, was the

9 chief of the Serb police station. She asked why her house would be burned

10 and he said, Wait a minute. He looked through a notebook and he said,

11 Your house is not on the list.

12 As some houses were burned and some were skipped or spared, I

13 think lists were drawn up with peoples first and last names. And this was

14 determined on the basis of indications provided by a local.

15 Q. Did I understand you correctly, Mr. Bogilovic, are you saying that

16 the local Serb population was also involved in the burnings, lootings and

17 killings of the Muslim population of Podravanja? The time frame is April

18 and May, 1992.

19 A. Yes. Quite correct. I'm talking more about Srebrenica.

20 Q. It's true, isn't it, that in doing so, the local population was

21 assisted by volunteers from Serbia and various paramilitary and military

22 formations arriving from Serbia itself. Do you know anything about that?

23 A. I know that on the 18th of April, 1992, Serb units came in. One

24 unit, they referred to it as a company, was billeted at the Domadia Hotel

25 and led by a man name Pero Zemunac.

Page 6379

1 Q. Question. This man, Pero Zemunac, was a volunteer from Serbia,

2 was he not?

3 A. I didn't know him, but that's what they said about him.

4 Q. Thank you.

5 A. You're welcome.

6 Q. The assertion that the local Serbian population of Srebrenica and

7 Bratunac were merely trying to preserve their own villages throughout 1992

8 and early 1993 based on your own experience. Based on what you learned

9 and heard from other people, this would in fact not be true, would it?

10 A. Of course it wouldn't. I was on the train when I found out that

11 everything would be sorted in a matter of 15 days. There was an

12 experienced team coming in led by captain Dragan and Arkan. They said new

13 authorities would be set up within 15 days and there would be peace.

14 However then the burnings and lootings ensued and people started feeling

15 very afraid.

16 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, you didn't answer my question, in fact. What I was

17 talking about was the local Serb population. The assertion or the theory

18 that the local Serb population of the Srebrenica and Bratunac areas were

19 merely guarding their villages throughout 1992 and early 1993. Based on

20 what you know about this, this assertion would in fact not be true, would

21 it?

22 A. Of course not. If everyone was just guarding their own house.

23 Q. The theory that the local inhabitants of Skelani, back in 1992,

24 and you were in the area of April 1992, were you not? So the theory that

25 all they had were village guards or village watches would also not be

Page 6380

1 true, would it?

2 A. No. Village guards, no. When I was passing through, there was a

3 military presence there with a barracks at Jezero.

4 Q. Thank you. You said that in early April both Serbs and Muslims

5 left Srebrenica due to tensions that prevailed in the area. As concerns

6 Srebrenica itself, it is true, isn't it, that Serbs in fact occupied

7 Srebrenica in mid April 1992, did they not?

8 A. There were negotiations in mid April and Srebrenica was finally

9 evacuated on the 17th or rather 18th of April. Alija Hasic left

10 Srebrenica at 10 o'clock sharp.

11 Q. It's true, isn't it, that Serbs entered Srebrenica after that?

12 A. Yes. On the 17th of April, 1992.

13 Q. During your testimony on Friday, you said that many of the Muslims

14 who remained behind burned some houses, in fact, around eighty houses

15 including your own. Isn't that true?

16 A. Yes, burned houses. Killed an entire family including children

17 and the remaining people were elderly people, or people who were already

18 retired. There was a man and --

19 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. Are we talking of Muslims burning

20 houses? Or is it a mistake?

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, my question was:

22 During your testimony on Friday you said that many of the Muslims who

23 remained behind were burned by the Serbs and, in fact, burned about 80 of

24 their houses including your own. Isn't that true, Mr. Bogilovic, that the

25 Serbs burned down 88 Muslim houses and killed many of the Muslims who

Page 6381

1 stayed behind in Srebrenica?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's true. I believe a total of

3 seven or eight families they burned down -- the houses burned down.

4 That's how they were found.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: So just for the record, I want to make sure that

6 this is clear. Lines 16 to 18 on page 9, your question as reported in the

7 transcript is wrong here. You asked supposedly according to the

8 transcript, you asked the witness: During your testimony on Friday, you

9 said that many of the Muslims who remained behind burned some houses. In

10 fact, around eighty houses including your own. Isn't that true? And his

11 answer is: Yes, burned houses. Killed an entire family including

12 children and the remaining people were elderly, et cetera. So taken

13 together these -- this question and answer mean exactly the opposite of

14 what you wanted to prove and what I understand the witness is telling.

15 But that is just for the record, okay, I'm making it clear. Yes,

16 please proceed and don't worry about it any longer.

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. When the Serbs left the town following Goran Zekic's death, in

19 their wake, they left devastation, did they not?

20 A. Yes, they did.

21 Q. They took with them everything of any value at all, did they not?

22 A. Word had it that Arkan's units, liberating the area from the

23 Muslim units, would be granted 2000 German marks as a reward and that they

24 would be entitled to take all electrical appliances away.

25 Q. Srebrenica's public institutions were laid waste to as well,

Page 6382

1 weren't they?

2 A. Yes. All the factories, everything was taken away. The secondary

3 school headmaster took a computer away for his own personal use in Bajina

4 Basta from the school that is.

5 Q. The Serbs took everything that might have been used for work, for

6 production, documents, type writers too, you said?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. The police station had been demolished too; right?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. When you reached Srebrenica, after the Serb's departure, you found

11 nothing there that could be used to conduct police or criminal

12 investigations, carry out on-site inspections, that sort of thing,

13 forensic work in general.

14 A. That's quite right. Everything had been smashed, destroyed, taken

15 away.

16 Q. Thank you. Experts of war crimes left Srebrenica, isn't that a

17 fact?

18 A. Yes. Starting with the typewriter and all the way to doctors.

19 Q. Those who were left behind were people who had lost their bearings

20 and refugees flooding in from all sides into Srebrenica as early as May,

21 1992 and on; is that correct?

22 A. The only educated people were those from the country who took

23 refuge in the country and it is quite true that the remaining people there

24 were quite uneducated.

25 Q. Refugees were arriving in Srebrenica with dreadful hair-raising

Page 6383

1 stories about crimes, were they not?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. This caused a lot of fear and panic, did it not?

4 A. Yes. Mr. Bogilovic, it's true, isn't it, that far too many people

5 were crammed in the small space that was Srebrenica as early as June

6 1992?

7 A. Yes. The people from Bratunac had fled to the woods, the people

8 from Skelani, the people from Vlasenica, most of them headed for Suceska

9 but some came to Srebrenica too.

10 Q. Therefore the same situation applied in Suceska and other Muslim

11 villages that had not been taken yet with floods of refugees coming in?

12 A. As people were attacked, people would run and would draw to the

13 next village, spend a day or two there, but then they would walk on and

14 most of them would come to Srebrenica, would end up in Srebrenica

15 eventually.

16 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Bogilovic. From the day the Muslims

17 returned to Srebrenica, the attacks of the Serb forces from the

18 surrounding villages who were receiving support from Serbia itself, or

19 rather, perhaps, I should rephrase my question. There ensued attacks by

20 the Serb forces from the surrounding Serb villages, attacks against the

21 Srebrenica area; is that correct?

22 A. The fiercest attacks were carried out Friday afternoon, Saturday

23 all day long and Sunday afternoon. The specials came, special units and

24 they shelled the town. You had to run and hide in those days. The

25 remaining days, when there was shelling, it wasn't safe, so people moved

Page 6384

1 about.

2 Q. Therefore, the population of Srebrenica and other Muslim enclaves

3 were subjected to shelling on a daily basis. However, on Friday, Saturday

4 and Sunday, the shelling grew in intensity, is that your testimony?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. There were frequent air attacks too, air strikes, were there not?

7 A. Yes. There were these planes that we referred to as boilers,

8 rather small planes, carrying boilers filled with explosives that would

9 then be dropped on the town. There were fast planes too. You hear it

10 coming, but you can hardly see. That's how fast they were. Fighter

11 planes. There were quite a number of helicopters too.

12 Q. The helicopters in fact raid the Srebrenica area and the Muslim

13 villages with machine-gun fire, did they not?

14 A. Yes. But sometimes they would just fly over without doing

15 anything. Sometimes one, sometimes two, sometimes three, they were

16 dropping leaflets all the while though.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Bogilovic, please allow --

18 [Microphone not activated]

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Please allow an interval between question and answer

20 because you are going too fast, both of you. Thank you.

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. There were frequent infantry attacks on Srebrenica and the

23 surrounding Muslim villages, were there not?

24 A. After the attack on Bratunac, their territory spread and they went

25 and attacked our villages one by one.

Page 6385












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 6386

1 Q. The Muslim villages were isolated and they were crisscrossed with

2 the Serbian settlements and Serbian military strongholds; is this correct?

3 A. Yes. Because Muslim and Serb villages --

4 MS. SELLERS: At this point, we do not have any time frame that we

5 are speaking about. I certainly believe that at one point that Madam

6 Vidovic was referring specifically to when Mr. Bogilovic was a police

7 officer. And then another point of time I thought we were speaking about

8 April and May. It seems now that we have moved into a timeless zone and

9 therefore I would state an objection. It is not clear. I would also like

10 to state that during his direct testimony, we did not lead any evidence of

11 that in a time period after the May 20th meeting. So therefore I don't

12 think it is part of our direct examination.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Vidovic.

14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: The objection is valid on both counts. Thank you.

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Yes. Your Honour, I will rephrase my question.

18 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, it's correct, is it not, that during 1992 -- I'm

19 referring to the time from the beginning of the war in 1992 until the

20 demilitarisation in 1993, the Muslim villages were isolated and they were

21 interrupted with -- by Serbian villages and Serbian military strongholds.

22 A. That's correct.

23 Q. I will phrase my question differently, Mr. Bogilovic. It's

24 correct, is it not, that throughout 1992 - I'm referring to the period of

25 the war - and the beginning of 1993, up to the demilitarisation,

Page 6387

1 Srebrenica itself was cut off to a large extent from the other small

2 Muslim enclaves and villages. In other words, their mutual links between

3 Srebrenica and these villages were very poor. Is this correct?

4 A. Yes. Because Srebrenica was isolated, communication was by

5 courier. This was difficult. The courier would go and never come back

6 and, in time, this territory became more extensive.

7 Q. It was, therefore, very dangerous for couriers to move between

8 Srebrenica and other Muslim villages, wasn't it?

9 A. Yes. But there was no other means of communication.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Judge Eser.

11 JUDGE ESER: Just as a matter of clarification. We already asked

12 you that you state the time frame within which you are talking. But now

13 we are also coming to localities. It would be, I think, quite important

14 to know when he -- you speak of other small Muslim enclaves and villages,

15 what villages you are thinking of. Are they villages directly around

16 Srebrenica? Or are you thinking of villages such as Kravica or Skelani or

17 do they include villages within your description? And another point would

18 be that you would, perhaps, tell us what you know by having seen it

19 yourself or what you know by having been told from others. Thank you.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This referred to the villages near

21 Srebrenica and around Srebrenica. The other villages you have mentioned

22 were far from Srebrenica. I'm referring to Kravica, Skelani and so on.

23 JUDGE ESER: But could you mention some of the villages around

24 Srebrenica you are thinking of? Give some names.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Bajramovici, Pusmulici, Likari, for

Page 6388

1 a time the road to Potocari was cut off and then the communication was

2 reestablished.

3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, it's true, is it not, that villages such as Osmace,

5 Kragljivoda, Pirici were cut off and it was not easy to reach these

6 villages?

7 A. That's correct. It was not easy to reach them, because the Serb

8 forces had cut them off.

9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]: Thank you very much. I would now

10 like to ask the usher for assistance. Can the witness be shown Exhibit

11 P73. This is a decision of the 20th of May, 1992 from Bajramovici.

12 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, you have already testified about this decision and

13 you confirmed that these seven people, whose names are listed in the

14 decision, entered the staff and then another three men did. These are

15 Oric from Potocari, Ustic from Srebrenica, Tursonovic, Zulfo and you from

16 Suceska, Fasic Hamdija from Bajramovici, Sefket Dozic from Bojna, Ahmo

17 Tihic from Jelesce and later on Akif Krdzic from Osmace, Nedzad Bektic

18 from Caracici and Senahid Tabakovic from Skanderovici. This was the

19 additional decision you don't have before you. This is correct, is it

20 not?

21 A. Yes. But in this format then at that time -- no.

22 Q. So you have never seen this decision before, is that correct?

23 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the witness's

24 response?

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Neither did I. What was your answer to Madam

Page 6389

1 Vidovic's question whether you had seen this document, I take it, P73, no?

2 Whether you had seen this document before? What is your answer to that

3 question, please?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I never saw it until the Prosecutors

5 of this court showed it to me.

6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation].

7 Q. Thank you, Mr. Bogilovic. It's true, is it not, that there were

8 many other villages in the area of Srebrenica and Bratunac which had their

9 armed groups and which were not present at the meeting in Bajramovici at

10 all; is this correct?

11 A. Yes. That's true. The meeting in Bajramovici was attended only

12 by this team and that was a group that were closest to each other. All

13 the other teams were far away and they didn't even know about it. Every

14 village had its own group.

15 Q. Thank you. Moreover, many people in these other villages didn't

16 even know about the agreement in Bajramovici?

17 A. No. They didn't.

18 Q. You knew the area of Suceska well. And you knew its commanders

19 Zulfo Tursonovic. During your testimony, you told us that you were there

20 until July 1992; is this correct?

21 A. Yes, that's correct. I was appointed on the 20th of May, 1992 and

22 I returned from Bajramovici to collect my things. Several days later I

23 returned to Srebrenica to take up the job I had been assigned to.

24 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I believe that the witness's testimony

25 on direct was more that he had remained in Suceska until toward the end of

Page 6390

1 May. Maybe if we could just have that clarified. Not July.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. When did you leave Suceska, Mr. Bogilovic? Do

3 you remember the exact date?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't recall the exact date. I

5 had to go back to see about my chickens and my things and my accommodation

6 was uncertain down there, so that some days passed but I apologise, I

7 cannot tell you the date.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. However that may be, Mr. Bogilovic, you were familiar with the

11 situation in Suceska until July, 1992 at least. Is this correct?

12 A. Not until July, because throughout June I was in Srebrenica. At

13 the beginning I was in Suceska the whole time, so, yes, I was familiar

14 with it.

15 Q. Very well. I will now ask you the following. It's correct, is it

16 not, that in Suceska, when the war broke out, while you were there, there

17 were armed groups of refugees from Vlasenica under the command of Becir

18 Mekanic and Fadil Turkovic and they were not under the command of Zulfo

19 Tursonovic at all. Am I right?

20 A. I didn't even know Becir. Later on, in Tuzla I learned about him.

21 I knew Fadil, that was a different area and a different municipality.

22 Fadil was active on the other side, not on the territory of Srebrenica.

23 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, I didn't ask you about the area of Srebrenica.

24 It's correct, is it not, that on the broader territory of Suceska,

25 apparent from Zulfo Tursunovic's unit, in May and June 1992, there were

Page 6391

1 other units fighting, units commanded by Fadil Turkovic and Becir

2 Mekanic. Are you aware of this?

3 A. I was aware of Fadil, not the other one, Becir.

4 Q. Very well. These units never entered the composition of the armed

5 forces of Srebrenica, is that correct?

6 A. That's correct, they didn't.

7 Q. Are you aware that these units participated in the fighting around

8 Podravanja?

9 A. I don't know that.

10 Q. Are you aware that these units, also with respect to the refugees

11 from Vlasenica, tried to provide food for them. They tried to provide

12 weapons for themselves and that they took part in fighting for food and

13 weapons with the Serbs?

14 A. I'm not aware of what their units did.

15 Q. In other words, you don't know that?

16 A. No, I don't.

17 Q. It's correct, is it not, that these units had no connection with

18 Srebrenica and Oric?

19 A. No, they didn't.

20 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, excuse me.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Sellers.

22 MS. SELLERS: I find it to be a bit of a non-sequiter. If he

23 doesn't know anything about the units in and of themselves, he doesn't

24 know whether they have a connection or not.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Isn't that a conclusion to be drawn by whoever needs

Page 6392

1 to make decisions.

2 MS. SELLERS: Certainly, Your Honour. I just like to bring what

3 seems to be quite an illogical conclusion from the sequence of questions

4 now on the record now. Thank you.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I'm not going to interfere in this, Madam

6 Vidovic. Go ahead with your questions.

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the witness said he

8 knew about Fadil Turkovic's unit. I will proceed.

9 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, it's correct, isn't it, that there were armed

10 groups of Muslims in Poznanovici, Dedici, Podkorijen, Mocevici, and

11 Brezovice which at least until mid October --

12 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, because Judge Eser is raising something

13 which is important, according to me. I think we ought to have a map

14 available at this stage, because we are finding it difficult to follow.

15 There are several maps.

16 [Trial Chamber confers]

17 JUDGE AGIUS: The thing is -- the problem arose because my

18 suggestion to the Prosecution was not followed in the case of this

19 witness. My suggestion was to have a map available.

20 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, we do have maps. The reason we didn't

21 have one with this witness is as a matter of fact our testimony of this

22 witness was very much located in the town of Srebrenica.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: But let's choose a map and have it on the ELMO and,

24 from time to time, the witness may be required to indicate where these

25 places are so that at least, relative to Srebrenica we would know where we

Page 6393

1 are.

2 I think this map that ...

3 [Trial Chamber confers]

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Let me see. I may have one here. C1. See if you

5 have a C1 map, with just C1. C1. It's marked C, because it is a court

6 document. Yes, let's use this one. Usher, come near me, and I will

7 explain to you which part you need to put on the ELMO.

8 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, we pulled one up on Sanctions, if you

9 would like to look at it and see if this would be appropriate.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. But would we be able to move up and down the

11 map on Sanction? Because I don't think we will.

12 MS. SELLERS: No. Only if the radius -- if you would look at your

13 Sanctions now if that would be a map that --

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Leave it on Sanction too, but for the time being, I

15 think is it wiser if we use this one. Put this on the ELMO for the time

16 being, centering -- focussing on Srebrenica and then we move as it becomes

17 necessary.

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I am asking about the

19 Ratkovici area, if I can assist the witness. Would you please look at the

20 area around Radosevici and Fakovici.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All I see here is the centre of

22 Srebrenica and the villages close to Srebrenica.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you see Ratkovici and Fakovici?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no. This is a narrow area.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Usher, could you please press computer evidence, the

Page 6394

1 computer evidence button for the witness, please. There is a coloured map

2 there, Mr. Bogilovic. And you will see that roughly just to the east of

3 Srebrenica, there is Ratkovici and Fakovici and to the west of Srebrenica

4 there is Suceska.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Indeed.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So keep concentrating on that map as we go

7 along. Yes, Madam Vidovic and we will see what we can make of it.

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I don't think he can

9 actually see it on this coloured map. I would prefer to use the other

10 one, if it shows the Ratkovici area, which I am not certain about.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Can you bring it over. I will show you which part

12 you need to put on the ELMO, please.

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. We can see some of the villages on this map. I can see Mocevici,

15 Brezovice?

16 A. I can see Mocevici too, Brezovice, Sobin.

17 Q. Very well. Can you please look at Poznanovici, Dedici and

18 Podkorijen.

19 THE INTERPRETER: Could counsel please speak into the microphone.

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Poznanovici, Dedici and Podkorijen are below Ratkovici. If you

22 could have a look, please, you can see it on the map?

23 A. Yes. But on the other side towards Bratunac, the -- across the

24 hills I mean.

25 Q. Thank you. Your Honours, may I proceed with this? Can you please

Page 6395

1 use the pointer now, Mr. Bogilovic, to show these villages, Poznanovici,

2 Dedici and Podkorijen there just below Ratkovici. Some centimetres

3 further down going from Ratkovici.

4 A. Poznanovici, here it is.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes for the record, the witness indicates to the

6 village of Podnanovici on the map, which is two grids below Ratkovici.

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. It's true, isn't it, Mr. Bogilovic, that Dedici and Podkorijen are

9 Muslim villages in the vicinity of Poznanovici? I'm not actually sure we

10 can see those on the map. I'm not sure if you can, can you? But you do

11 agree with me when I say that these are villages close to Poznanovici?

12 A. This is an area known as Poznanovici, with hamlet's, small

13 villages Dedici and Podkorijen.

14 Q. Very well. Thank you. Can you please show Mocevici and Brezovice

15 on the map. You did see them a while ago, didn't you?

16 A. Mocevici right here and Brezovice, a bit further in this

17 direction.

18 Q. Thank you very much.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: For the record, the witness indicates with a pointer

20 to the two villages of Mocevici and Brezovice which are two and four grids

21 above Dedici respectively. Yes, Brezovice and Mocevici.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. The question about this. It's true, isn't it, that in these

24 Muslim villages too, there were armed groups whose members were not

25 present at the meeting in Bajramovici, is it not?

Page 6396

1 A. It's true. They weren't present.

2 Q. It's also true that at least until as late as mid October, those

3 groups acted on their own?

4 A. I'm not sure about the date, but they were far from us and we had

5 nothing to do with them, especially me.

6 Q. When about your information, did these units too try to defend

7 themselves from the Serbs, seize their weapons, get food for the refugees?

8 A. I believe so. I believe each and every one of these villages got

9 themselves organised for fear.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. The question went beyond the concept of

11 fear, I think. The question was: When about your information, did these

12 units too try to defend themselves from the Serbs? And there you need to

13 answer the question: "Seize their weapons and get food for the refugees".

14 So it's a question of defence. It's a question of obtaining weapons and,

15 thirdly, of obtaining food and food specifically for refugees.

16 Did your information fill or satisfy all of these three points?

17 Let's take them one by one. The information that you had, sir, were these

18 units trying to defend themselves from the Serbs as well?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Based on the information that I

20 received, some of those who came said that all the villages were getting

21 themselves organised, helping each other out, and every time an attack

22 occurred by the Serb units, they tried to defend themselves. I don't know

23 what sort of internal organisation they had, because I was never in the

24 area throughout the war.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Did you also receive information that these units

Page 6397

1 were trying to obtain weapons from the Serbs, seize weapons?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What I heard said, they found those

3 because earlier there had been people saying that the Serbs had quite a

4 number of weapons. When we entered Srebrenica, we found large caches of

5 weapons in houses with only one owner.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: And the information that you were receiving, sir,

7 was it also to the extent that those units were getting food for refugees?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I didn't know about that. But

9 they had to feed them, didn't they, those who kept coming in.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: That's a conclusion. Yes. Madam Vidovic, sorry to

11 have interrupted you like that but I think we needed to clear this,

12 because there were three things put together in one question.

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Thank you, Your Honours. Mr. Bogilovic, these units had their own

15 local commanders. Was this something you were aware of?

16 A. Yes. But it was only later that one learned who the commanders

17 had been or team leaders if you like.

18 Q. Have you ever heard of a man named Vekaz Husic?

19 A. Yes. Later on. I think he's from Mocevici, isn't he? I think so

20 at least.

21 Q. In other words, when you say we only found out later, this means

22 that in the first months of war, you, people in the leading positions in

23 Srebrenica, had no contact whatsoever with these local commanders, does it

24 not?

25 A. It's true that I saw none of these commanders at the time. I

Page 6398

1 don't know whether anyone else did, but this was quite far from us.

2 Q. It's true, therefore, that they did not come to Srebrenica for

3 meetings. You never saw any of them in Srebrenica, did you?

4 A. No. Not in those days when we were getting ourselves organised in

5 May, June and July.

6 Q. It's true, isn't it, that the refugees from the Bratunac area,

7 especially those from Glogova, tried to get themselves organised on their

8 own in order to return to their village?

9 A. Yes. That's true. A man named Golic was referred to in this

10 context.

11 Q. I will ask you something about that too. You mentioned Ejub

12 Golic. You probably had Ejub Golic in mind, didn't you?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. It's true, isn't it, that a Ejub Golic had a large armed group of

15 people over in Cizmici, didn't he?

16 A. Once they had fled Glogova, that was the first village they came

17 across. It is also part of Bratunac municipality.

18 Q. Can you please now go back to the map and show the Trial Chamber

19 the villages of Vojevica, Biljaca and Zaluzje. That is the area around

20 Bratunac. Can you please pull the map up a little. Can you please show

21 Vojevica, Biljaca and Zaluzje.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. For the record, the witness indicates with the

23 pointer on the map the village of Vojevica and the village of Zaluzje

24 which are -- can you move the -- which are two grids and four and -- three

25 grids below Ljubovija on the map, to the east of Bratunac.

Page 6399












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 6400

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Biljaca is even further down, isn't it?

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. The witness indicates to the village of

4 Biljaca which is two grids below Zaluzje.

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Throughout 1992, and obviously, Mr. Bogilovic, I'm referring to

7 the war period, refugees from these villages also had armed groups which

8 they used to try and return to their homes and, in fact, they fought, the

9 local Serbs didn't they?

10 A. Yes. The civilians had fled to the woods and then they came to

11 Srebrenica and they were the first to arrive, in fact.

12 Q. It's true, isn't it, that a large number of civilians and other

13 people remained in the nearby woods?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. There were substantial groups of people, in fact, that were not

16 present at the meeting in Bajramovici on the 25th of May, 1992?

17 A. No, they weren't.

18 Q. In other words, the decision to set up a Srebrenica staff did not

19 refer to them, did it?

20 A. No.

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can I have the usher's assistance,

22 please. I would like to show the witness P4.

23 Q. P4 is an order to the local commanders of self-organised armed

24 groups dated the 15th of July, 1992 -- of June, interpreter's correction,

25 15th of June.

Page 6401

1 Mr. Bogilovic, you were shown this document by the Prosecutor but

2 can we please go through this again and have a good look, please. Based

3 on this, that's if the document is authentic at all, one could conclude

4 that on the 15th of June, 1992, there were, in fact, local commanders of

5 self-organised armed groups and these commanders were requested to start

6 organising immediately. Is that correct?

7 A. Yes. The names that I see here, these persons were chosen or

8 selected by the people of these villages.

9 Q. Do you therefore agree that on the 15th of June, if this document

10 is anything to go by, they were ordered to start organising and

11 establishing units immediately?

12 A. That's how it should be, yes.

13 Q. That's what the document says, doesn't it?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Can we please go back to these ten names, or rather, nine names

16 stated here. Can you please look at the names from 1 to 10, the names --

17 or rather, the villages referred to in this document, if you can have a

18 look, please.

19 My next question will be about that. It's true, isn't it that

20 the armed groups that I asked you about a while ago, namely those from

21 Vlasenica, Poznanovici, Mocevici, Brezovice, Glogova, Vojevica, Zalulje

22 and Biljaca were not, in fact, included in this order? Were they?

23 A. No. No.

24 Q. Thank you, Mr. Bogilovic. That will be sufficient.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Madam Vidovic. I am of course looking

Page 6402

1 at the English version and not the B/C/S one. But before we come to the

2 list starting with number 1, that is the word, at least in the English

3 language, "in particular", which would qualify your statement or your

4 question. The correct way of presenting it is: Is it correct that the

5 other villages that you mentioned are not listed. But I don't think you

6 can ask whether they are included or not, because it only says "in

7 particular."

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, --

9 JUDGE AGIUS: So they are not listed and you can, of course, ask

10 for a confirmation of that, but you --

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour --

12 JUDGE AGIUS: If you want to ask the other question whether they

13 were included, then you have to be very specific. In other words, you

14 would need to ask the question whether this would mean that those were

15 definitely not included. Were excluded, in other words. Or not included.

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it seems that this is a

17 misinterpretation, because this order in Bosnian does not contain this --

18 THE INTERPRETER: Mistranslation. Interpreter's correction.

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I will read the first part of the

20 order. Would the interpreters please follow and could the usher please

21 put this on the ELMO.

22 This word especially does not exist. What it says here is "e

23 tor," meaning "and that." I will read it out.

24 "Order. All local commanders of self-organised armed groups with a

25 view to opposing the aggressors and carry out a war of liberation for the

Page 6403

1 return of occupied areas are ordered to immediately start organisational

2 and formational establishment of units of the Srebrenica Territorial

3 Defence as follows:"

4 JUDGE AGIUS: But "as follows" is something which is completely

5 different to what I read out in the English version, so it is a good thing

6 that I mentioned it, that I brought this up, because it does make a

7 difference.

8 All right. I thank you, so I will not raise the matter -- pursue

9 the matter any further. You need not put any further questions to the

10 witness on the issue that I raised. It's clear enough. But this is the

11 problem when you have --

12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: This is the problem that you have when you have

14 translations. "As follows." Because "as follows" is completely different

15 from "in particular." Yes, Madam Vidovic.

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, even in Srebrenica itself, there was a large group

18 of armed people under the command of Hakija Meholjic and Naser Oric had no

19 influence over that group. Is this in accordance with what you know?

20 A. Yes.

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Would the usher now show the witness

22 P80. This document was allegedly issued by the Srebrenica staff of the

23 19th of September, 1993 and its the delivery of information with respect

24 to the establishment of armed forces in Srebrenica in the past period.

25 Q. First, would you please look through these three pages. You will

Page 6404

1 see that the first establishment of formation is mentioned and the date is

2 the 20th of May, 1992.

3 Mr. Bogilovic, would you please look at page 1. The first

4 formation structure and the date is the 20th of May, 1992. And then the

5 second formation structure, the date is the 3rd of September. And then,

6 if you will turn the page, to 02075845, that's the third page, you will

7 see the third paragraph begins on the 14th of October, 1992. Pursuant to

8 an order from the command a reorganisation has been carried out. This is

9 the 14th of October, 1992.

10 Would you now turn to page 4, which I will ask you about. The

11 number is 02075846. Would you now, please, pay attention to what it says

12 here under 4. Would you please look at it and I will quote.

13 "The independent Srebrenica battalion with its headquarters in

14 Srebrenica. Commander Safet Mujic. 849 conscripts. Composition five

15 companies. The first company with its headquarters in the Stari Grad.

16 Commander Enes Ustic. Second company, headquarters Solocusa. Commander

17 Hebibovic Ramiz. Third company, headquarters in Kazani. Commander Suad

18 Smailovic. Fourth company, headquarters Bajramovici" -- thank you. I

19 apologise.

20 "Fourth company, headquarters in Bajramovici. Commander Sabahudin

21 Jusic. Fifth company, headquarters in Srebrenica. Commander Hakija

22 Meholjic."

23 Mr. Bogilovic, I have just asked you about Mr. Meholjic. It's

24 true, is it not, that Safet Mujic was never the commander of Hakija

25 Meholjic? Nor was Meholic's unit part of the Srebrenica TO.

Page 6405

1 A. As regards Hakija Meholjic, he would certainly have never agreed

2 for Safet Mujic to be his superior.

3 Q. Therefore -- this is something that is written down on paper. In

4 fact, in real life, in Srebrenica, in 1992 and 1993, this was not how it

5 was; isn't that correct?

6 A. Throughout this time Hakija waged a policy of his own. He refused

7 to participate while Hakib was alive. He negotiated with him about

8 something, I don't know what. But as for military matters, I wasn't there

9 and I can't tell you about that.

10 I know that they were there and that they had an escort, a

11 bodyguard to protect them, both of them, and I found this ridiculous.

12 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, it's correct, is it not, that Hakija Meholjic was

13 never under the command of Mr. Safet Mujic?

14 A. I know for certain or rather I don't know that he was ever under

15 Safet Mujic's command.

16 Q. Very well. Thank you. Mr. Bogilovic, would you now please look

17 at what it says under number five. This is an independent battalion,

18 Skenderovici. Its headquarters is in Skenderovici.

19 And then companies are listed: The first company based in

20 Stozersko. Second company based in Mocevici. Third company based in

21 Brezovice. Fourth company based in Poloznik. Independent platoon based

22 in Zapolje, sabotage and reconnaissance platoon.

23 Do you agree, in view of the fact that this is the second

24 formation structure and that its date is the 14th of October, 1992, that

25 even from this document it follows that the men from the -- from

Page 6406

1 Stozersko, Brezovice, Poloznik and Zapolje were not part of the

2 Skenderovici unit before the 14th of October, 1992.

3 A. I certainly agree with that. It could not have been one unit

4 because they were cut off.

5 Q. Very well. Thank you. Let us go back for a moment, Mr.

6 Bogilovic, to the first page of this document where it says "first

7 formation structure." And I will quote what it says here under the

8 heading "first formation structure."

9 It says: "On the 20th of May, 1992, in Bajramovici, the

10 Srebrenica -- the Srebrenica Territorial Defence staff was formed. From

11 the 17th of April, 1992 to mid-October, 1992 the first regional units were

12 formed under the auspices of the TO, namely TO Potocari, TO Suceska,

13 Grabivoda, Skenderovici, Srebrenica, Luca."

14 Mr. Bogilovic, my question is as follows: It's correct, is it

15 not, that these units were not established at the same time and that the

16 process of their establishment stretched over a protracted time period.

17 The document itself says from the 17th of April 1992 to mid-October, 1992.

18 Is this in accordance with what you know?

19 A. Yes, because the first formation was on the 25th, Srebrenica and

20 the nearby villages, Bajramovici, Potocari, the ones I mentioned, because

21 you couldn't communicate with the people in the other villages. You

22 couldn't reach them. And as time went by, things were protracted in time.

23 Q. Thank you, Mr. Bogilovic. It would be wrong to conclude that they

24 were all formed on the 25th of May, 1992 in Bajramovici. Or let us say

25 the 15th of June, 1992.

Page 6407

1 A. Yes, of course it would be wrong because the first date -- what

2 was done on the area of Bratunac and Vlasenica and the people were afraid

3 and the first meeting was on the 25th of May, 1992, but that was only

4 Suceska, Potocari and Bajramovici.

5 Q. Thank you. It's correct, is it not, that in general resistance to

6 the Serb persecution was offered only by organised groups scattered around

7 individuals, including Oric?

8 A. The actions that followed were a reflection of the looting. In

9 order to prevent that, there were actions in Potocari and Osmace. Those

10 are the actions I know about. And there was one in Suceska when they said

11 that all the workers should come to us and work. And when they arrived

12 there, they were arrested and detained.

13 Then the team at Zutica, which is the area of Vlasenica, and for

14 the most part they worked in the mine, they blocked the road and took five

15 vehicles of bauxite. And then there was an exchange.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Hold it. Hold it. Because sometimes matters tend

17 to get out of hand completely. I don't see how this fits in in any way

18 the question Madam Vidovic put to you. It was a very simple question to

19 you, Mr. Bogilovic. The question was: Is it correct, it's correct, is it

20 not, that in general resistance to the Serb persecution was offered only

21 by organised groups, scattered-around individuals, including Oric.

22 Your answer did not cover that question. It covered other things,

23 but not that question. So perhaps you could answer, answer that

24 question.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I will reply to the question. Yes,

Page 6408

1 precisely so.

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Thank you very much.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Judge Eser has a question for him.

5 JUDGE ESER: You mentioned "the actions that followed were a

6 reflection of the looting." What actions are you referring to? Actions

7 by whom? And looting by whom?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Serb forces were looting. They

9 were taking away technical goods, the property belonging to companies and

10 enterprises.

11 JUDGE ESER: And before you speak of looting you would say the

12 actions that followed were a reflection of the looting, but not -- what

13 did you mean with "actions"? Actions of whom, by whom? Taken by whom?

14 Actions taken by whom?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These actions were taken by the

16 local villagers, the local inhabitants of the villages. Because they

17 wanted to keep the factories there. They were working in those factories.

18 They didn't want the machines to be taken away. So they blocked the road.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Yes, Madam Vidovic, please.

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation].

21 Q. Your Honour, I think this might be a very good time, because I

22 have now rounded off this topic. So it might be a good time for a break?

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. We will have a 25-minute minute break starting

24 from now. Thank you. Are you on schedule, you think?

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. I believe so. There are

Page 6409

1 documents to follow, but I think I will be able to complete as scheduled.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, thank you. 25 minutes.

3 --- Recess taken at 10.28 a.m.

4 --- On resuming at 11.05 a.m.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Sorry for the delay, but something came up on

6 the way to the courtroom and -- which I had to deal with, about other

7 cases, of course, not this one. Yes, Madam Vidovic, you may proceed,

8 please.

9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, what happened in Bajramovici, the decision that was

11 made to set up the so-called Srebrenica staff, you spoke about that. This

12 decision was taken in Bajramovici by an informal group of people, wasn't

13 it?

14 A. Yes. There was a group of people in Bajramovici, representatives

15 of those groups from Bajramovici had Hambija from Suceska Zulfo and from

16 Potocari, Oric.

17 Q. Thank you. So this decision was not taken by the socio-political

18 community or another body that would be in charge of anything like that?

19 A. No. The community could not have taken that decision because the

20 community had left Srebrenica by this time and there were no authorities

21 in place.

22 Q. Thank you. Given the fact that the decision was made by an

23 informal group of people, the decision was not complied with by all armed

24 groups and individuals, was it?

25 A. That's quite right, but it depends on the area.

Page 6410

1 Q. It's true, isn't it, that the only criterion to become a member of

2 the staff that was appointed in Bajramovici was a contribution in terms of

3 resistance, is that not a fact?

4 A. Yes, that's what the people chose.

5 Q. There was -- no qualifications were not a consideration at the

6 time, were they?

7 A. No. Because there were no qualified people around.

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can I have the usher's assistance,

9 please. I would like to place the following document on the ELMO. The

10 document is from the Pobudje territorial defence dated the 6th of June,

11 1992 and the number is 01838973.

12 Q. Witness, can you please have a look. The date, or rather, the

13 heading is: "Pobudje TO, 6th of June, 1992". And then it says,

14 "Surrender to Susnjari TO/Slatina TO or Potocari TO, or possibly deliver

15 to Susnjari/Slatina or Potocari TO".

16 I will quote one portion of this document, the first portion. I

17 quote, "The other day, if there had been cooperation and agreement between

18 us, we would have managed to come together and embark on 'mopping up'

19 Rogac and beyond towards Milici".

20 "We subsequently carried out actions in a different part of the

21 field, so we had no time to send a messenger to you. We are holding

22 firmly all the positions in our area, although there was a

23 misunderstanding with Urkovici, and we abandoned the areas that we had

24 previously taken. To avoid any future misunderstandings and in order to

25 ensure closer cooperation between the three territories, please provide us

Page 6411

1 with useful information from your territory, by courier, so that we can

2 start an action at a given time as agreed with you".

3 My question about this, Mr. Bogilovic, is: Can you agree with me

4 that this document shows that there were many units in the broader

5 Srebrenica area, such as Pobudje TO, Susnjari TO, Slatina TO and so on and

6 so forth, units that were not present at the meeting in Bajramovici when

7 an agreement was reached? Units that were not even aware that the

8 Srebrenica staff had come into existence?

9 A. This is the first time I see this document. I have never been to

10 Pobudje in my life, nor was I aware of this. The truth is, the villages,

11 all the villages were compelled to come together and take certain

12 decisions on what to do.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Vidovic, I hate to interrupt you but this

14 question you had already asked during the first session and it had already

15 been answered by the witness who confirmed what happened in Bajramovici

16 was not known amongst -- in other areas, so I don't think you need to

17 stress the point any further.

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you, Your Honour.

19 I wanted to ask a different question about this.

20 Q. The document also shows, Mr. Bogilovic, does it not, that these

21 groups acted of their own accord and independently of each other, is that

22 true?

23 A. Yes. Not only this group, there were other groups too.

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Bogilovic. May we

25 have a number for this document, please, the 6th of June, 1992 document

Page 6412

1 from Pobudje to be assigned a number as a Defence Exhibit.


3 JUDGE AGIUS: So this document will become Defence Exhibit D237.

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can I have the usher's assistance,

5 please. I would like to show the witness a different document. This time

6 this is 00926448. This is a Kragljevode TO staff document.

7 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, can you have a look, please. This document was

8 produced by the Kragljevode TO staff, the number is 04/92, the date is

9 25th of June, 1992. The document was signed by commander major Begovic, a

10 person you have referred to. The document is entitled: "Order", and then

11 "pursuant to the decision of the BH Presidency, and the commander of the

12 BH Territorial Defence, I hereby declare a state of general mobilisation".

13 My question is, you will agree with me, Mr. Bogilovic, will you

14 not, that the TO staff commander of Kragljevode on the 25th of June, 1992,

15 refers to a decision made by the BH Presidency and the commander of the

16 territorial defence of BH, but certainly makes no reference to the

17 Srebrenica staff, does he? Is that not correct?

18 A. Yes, that's what the document says.

19 Q. These local groups, will you agree, will you not, helped each

20 other out on occasion, whenever necessary, whenever local commanders saw

21 it fit?

22 A. That's quite true. They had to communicate by courier and the

23 villages helped each other out.

24 Q. They help helped each other out whenever local commanders saw fit,

25 is that true?

Page 6413












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13 English transcripts.













Page 6414

1 A. Yes. Or whatever they agreed to do.

2 Q. Thank you.

3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we have a number for this

4 exhibit, please?

5 JUDGE AGIUS: So this document will become Defence Exhibit D238.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour.

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Next, I would like the usher to show

8 the witness OTP Exhibit 150. 150. This is a document of the armed forces

9 of Bosnia-Herzegovina, the command of the Drina division. The date is the

10 1st of November, 1992.

11 Q. The number for this document is 02110288. Mr. Bogilovic, can you

12 please have a look now. I will quote from this document. It says:

13 "Pursuant to an oral orders by the Srebrenica commander, 7.62 millimetre

14 ammunition must be collected, 5.000 bullets. I hereby order that company

15 commanders and front line commanders carry out an assessment of the

16 situation along the front lines. They shall be responsible to take ten

17 bullets from each of their soldiers. If any ammunition is collected, it

18 is then to be taken back to Srebrenica". You would agree with me, would

19 you not, that this document indicates that the order is by the Srebrenica

20 commander, whereas to be assessed on the spot by company commanders and

21 front line commanders so that then would they decide what to do. Is that

22 not a fact?

23 A. I had never seen this document until it was shown to me by the

24 OTP. Therefore, I can hardly comment whether it is authentic or not.

25 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, I didn't ask you about the document's authenticity.

Page 6415

1 What I would like you to comment on is, if you know anything about the

2 substance of this document.

3 What I've just read out to you, what the document says, that the

4 commanders themselves should assess the situation along the lines, and

5 that they were the ones responsible for deciding. Does that not show that

6 the Srebrenica commanders order was left to local -- to the local

7 commanders to assess. Is that true, or not?

8 A. Yes. That's precisely what the document appears to say. It is

9 not ordered. It is said that the commanders should make an assessment.

10 Q. And also, what they say about any ammunition that might be

11 collected.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Sellers.

13 MS. SELLERS: I don't know when we're reading from the English,

14 where we have anything they have to make an assessment about whether to

15 follow the order. What I do see in the English version is that the

16 company and line commanders evaluates the situation along the lines and at

17 their own responsibility to take ten bullets from each soldier.

18 Now, unless that is a characterisation that Defence has given, I

19 just want to make that -- well, actually ask that question and make it

20 clear because that is not what is translated on the document.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Vidovic.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I will again do what I

23 did a while ago, but before I go on, Your Honour, something we have

24 noticed in many documents, especially the war log, the war diary -- which

25 will be used again and again throughout this trial -- there seem to be

Page 6416

1 many mistranslations concerning essential points.

2 Therefore, if I may bring up a suggestion, the OTP should maybe

3 have these translations checked. And the same applies to many other

4 documents.

5 I do not wish to discuss this in front of the witness now, but I

6 will again ask for this document to be placed on the ELMO so that the

7 interpreter can follow what I'm saying or just interpret on their own.

8 The Bosnian version reads as follows: "I hereby order the company

9 commanders and front line commanders to assess the situation along the

10 front lines and add their own responsibility, take ten bullets from each

11 of the soldiers. Any ammunition collected in this way is to be taken to

12 Srebrenica", and that's what the text says, that's what I've shown the

13 witness.

14 Witness, have you been able to follow?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Is that not precisely what it says?

17 A. Yes. Assessment. If they assess or evaluate the situation, then

18 they should do it. If their assessment is to the contrary, then they

19 shouldn't do anything.

20 Q. Thank you very much. Witness, I have a different question for you

21 now, in relation to this. Prior to that, can we please --

22 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no. It's just confirming that it is already in

23 the record here.

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honours.

25 Q. Another question about this, Witness. What about your

Page 6417

1 information, does it not show that many orders by the Srebrenica staff

2 were treated like this in practice? That's in as far as you know.

3 A. Probably so, because all the other units in the other areas made

4 decisions too, in other municipalities, what they should do, especially in

5 Bratunac municipality, which had its own structure. Once they had fled

6 Bratunac, they organised themselves.

7 Q. It's true, isn't it, that in practical terms, more was being done

8 in terms of cooperation between these armed groups and staffs, rather than

9 work carried out concerning the chain of command or lines of

10 subordination. You as a police officer must know what that means?

11 A. No. Can you please explain that to me, lines of subordination.

12 Q. It's true, that in practice, more was done, in terms of

13 cooperation between these armed groups than in terms of orders being sent

14 down from the staff to the units on the ground.

15 A. Yes. That's quite true. The greatest -- the greatest problem was

16 the logistics. And the greatest effort was being made about the

17 logistics, about the people being hungry and that was the paramount

18 problem they had at the time.

19 Q. Am I reading you correctly, are you trying to say that the staff

20 was in no position to secure the logistics and, therefore, had no

21 influence on the troops on the ground?

22 A. Yes. Precisely. No one could influence them, not the Presidency,

23 not the staff.

24 Q. Thank you very much. It's true, isn't it, that throughout 1992,

25 Oric was in no position at all, was entirely unable to affect the

Page 6418

1 appointment of local commanders, since they were selected and appointed by

2 the local population? Would I be right in claiming that?

3 A. Yes, entirely.

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can I have the usher's assistance

5 yet again please. I would like to show the witness another exhibit. This

6 is a noted P exhibit, P75.

7 This is a decision of the TO staff, an alleged decision of the

8 Srebrenica TO staff, number 3/92 of the 26th of May, 1992.

9 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, please take a look at it and I will read to you the

10 statement of reasons. "The Srebrenica TO staff shall be expanded with new

11 members who are organisers of armed resistance against the aggressor in

12 the territory of Srebrenica municipality from areas with no

13 representatives in the staff which was formed on the 20th of May, 1992".

14 Mr. Bogilovic, in connection with this, I will ask you the

15 following, pursuant to this document, it seems that the staff functioned

16 according to the principle of representatives of villages or areas and you

17 confirmed this, didn't you?

18 A. Yes, I did. In the same way that Zulfo, Akif and Oric were

19 chosen, the others were also chosen in their villages.

20 Q. Thank you. These were not professionals with military training

21 who could deal with issues which command bodies such as the TO staff would

22 be competent to deal with?

23 A. That's true. I saw that young boy, Nedzad Bektic, for the first

24 time. He was in some kind of military school and he ran away.

25 Q. The others who were chosen in Bajramovici and the ones with which

Page 6419

1 the staff was expanded, none of them had the necessary military training?

2 A. No way. Some were policemen. One was a physical education

3 teacher. Zulfo was a farmer.

4 Q. Thank you very much. These areas chose the men they trusted,

5 isn't that correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. It's correct that Oric could not even influence the selection of

8 his own associates?

9 A. No, he couldn't. First of all, he didn't know the areas or the

10 people outside and of course he couldn't affect the nominations or the

11 selection of the people.

12 Q. Thank you. It's also correct that Ustic and Tursonovic, in their

13 areas, in the course of 1992 and later in the first months of 1993,

14 continued to have their own independent commands, isn't it?

15 A. As for Ustic, not in 1993. He was killed before that. But Zulfo

16 always kept that for himself.

17 Q. You wanted to say that Zulfo Tursonovic, throughout 1992, up until

18 the demilitarisation in 1993, had an independent command in the area of

19 Suceska?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. It's also correct, is it not, that Akif Ustic, until he was

22 killed, also had an independent command?

23 A. Yes, he did. He was a little arrogant. I'm sorry he's not alive

24 because one shouldn't speak badly of those who are dead, but that's what

25 he was like.

Page 6420

1 Q. I will now put a question to you. And based on what you saw and

2 based on your experiences in Suceska, please tell us, even if Oric during

3 1992 and part of 1993 had wanted to replace Zulfo Tursunovic, he could not

4 have done that, could he?

5 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I apologise. It calls for speculation.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Not necessarily. Let's see whether he can answer

7 that question. And if he can answer that question, on what ground he

8 reaches that conclusion, whichever that conclusion will be. I don't want

9 you to speculate, Mr. Bogilovic. If you know the answer to that question,

10 you give it to us. If you don't know the answer, you tell us you don't

11 know.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm 99 per cent sure he couldn't

13 have.

14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. The reason for that, Mr. Bogilovic, is because the people of

16 Suceska would not have accepted that, am I right?

17 A. Well, it was the people who appointed him. He came from among the

18 people of Suceska. Nobody from the outside appointed him. And by his

19 nature, Zulfo was -- well, there's information about him showing what he

20 was like.

21 Q. You wanted to say that Zulfo was a difficult man, wasn't he? A

22 short-tempered man?

23 A. Yes. In his village, everybody knew him and they trusted him,

24 because they elected him their leader.

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Would the usher now

Page 6421

1 please show the witness P42, that is Prosecution Exhibit P42. This is a

2 decision of the War Presidency of the first of July 1992, whereby the War

3 Presidency was established.

4 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, could you please pay attention to the names of the

5 members of the War Presidency. I will ask you something about that.

6 Under 8, Mirsad Dudic and, 11, Senahid Tabakovic. You knew those men,

7 didn't you?

8 A. Yes, I did.

9 Q. It's correct, is it not, that Mirsad Dudic and Senahid Tabakovic

10 were local commanders of military units?

11 A. Yes, Dudic Mirsad in Gorazde.

12 Q. In Osmace? Yes. And as commanders of local units, they were

13 members of the War Presidency?

14 A. Yes. That's correct. Because these were the first people who

15 were there when it was established.

16 Q. Very well. Thank you. So the situation was such that they, as

17 commanders of units, were supposed to be subordinated to Oric, weren't

18 they?

19 A. Yes. Because if they were holding posts in the army, then they

20 should have been under the command of the army.

21 Q. Do you agree with me that as members of the Presidency, which was

22 the supreme command, they were, to say the lease, his equals, or rather,

23 his superiors. Is that correct?

24 A. Yes. They all had the same voting rights if a ballot was taken

25 and none of them could cast two ballots.

Page 6422

1 Q. I don't think you answered my question. As members of the War

2 Presidency, which was the supreme command, to say the least, they were

3 Oric's equals, and moreover, they were his superiors because they were

4 members of the War Presidency. Am I right?

5 A. Yes. On their own territory they had equal rights to make

6 decisions, just as Oric did because they carried out decisions in their

7 own villages and it was they who actually made the decisions in their own

8 villages.

9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you. Would the

10 usher now, please, show the witness another document. This is document

11 P109.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Make sure that you put them all on the ELMO, usher,

13 please, because these were not prepared for us.

14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, would you please look at this document. This

16 decision number 11/92 allegedly issued by the Municipal Staff of

17 Srebrenica. Would you please look at the title carefully. It says,

18 "Subject, decisions of the Territorial Defence Staff Srebrenica".

19 When asked by the Prosecutor on Friday about this, you said that

20 you had attended a meeting on the 1st of July, 1992 when the decisions

21 mentioned in this document were taken. Is this correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. It's correct, is it not, that at that time it was first -- the War

24 Presidency that was elected first and then it issued the decision on

25 establishing the military police and the appointing Mirzet Halilovic.

Page 6423

1 Would you please look at paragraph 2 of this document. It says: "The war

2 military police is established hereby and Mirzet Halilovic was appointed

3 the commander of this unit".

4 Am I correct in saying that the War Presidency issued a decision

5 establishing the military police and appointing Mirzet Halilovic?

6 A. It's correct that on the first of July, 1992 the War Presidency

7 was established. And the members of the War Presidency then appointed

8 these individuals, Mirzet Halilovic, Alic, Hamid.

9 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I would like to raise a point.


11 MS. SELLERS: I think there has been, within the question -- even

12 though Mr. Bogilovic has continued to answer, I think there has been a

13 mischaracterisation in the evidence that was presented. There was

14 evidence from the Prosecution where Mr. Bogilovic was shown a document

15 dating from the 15th of June that showed an appointment of the military

16 commander and then this document chronologically did come afterwards.

17 He said that he did not have knowledge of that other document or

18 was present there. So right now, I don't think we can characterise that

19 it was clear that the first the Presidency was established and then Mirzet

20 Halilovic was appointed. There has been evidence to the contrary.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. What do you have to say about that, Madam

22 Vidovic?

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I did not understand

24 the objection raised by the Prosecutor, but my question is quite clear. I

25 said, In view of the fact that Mr. Bogilovic attended this session, he

Page 6424

1 knows precisely what happened there.

2 I asked him whether the War Presidency was elected and whether,

3 after its election, it proceeded to appoint, or rather, to establish the

4 military police and appoint Mirzet Halilovic. This is something that the

5 witness can explain very simply because he attended the session. I don't

6 see how the witness could not know this.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. But what are you trying to prove at the end of

8 the day? That Mirzet Halilovic was appointed by the War Presidency?

9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Precisely so, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: So let's stick to that. Was Mr. Halilovic appointed

11 as commander of the military police by the War Presidency or by someone

12 else?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Zulfo Tursunovic proposed that

14 Mirzet Halilovic be the member of the military police on the 1st of July,

15 1992 when the War Presidency was formed.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Vidovic.

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. My question was, not who nominated him, but who appointed him?

19 A. We did. The members of the Presidency.

20 Q. So the War Presidency. All right.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: That was covered in a previous question. It's

22 already -- I mean, we have already covered that. So if we can try,

23 please, to avoid repetitions, we will finish earlier.

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, it would be wrong to claim that Naser Oric on the

Page 6425

1 1st of July, 1992 appointed anyone, including Mirzet Halilovic. Isn't

2 that so?

3 A. Yes. He certainly couldn't have.

4 Q. Thank you. Do you agree that this document, which has been shown

5 to you, is, in fact, information passed on by Oric to the republican TO

6 staff?

7 A. Well, I can't go into that, because on that day I was wounded,

8 when this was drafted, on the 2nd of July. And how he could have passed

9 this on when there were attacks on that day, I don't know.

10 Q. Very well. Thank you. Do you agree that this kind of document,

11 which is entitled "Decisions of the TO Staff of Srebrenica" could be

12 simply a clumsy formulation by someone?

13 A. Most probably.

14 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour --

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes, I agree you don't even need to finish your

16 sentence, Ms. Sellers. It's -- you either withdraw the question or

17 reformulate it, Madam Vidovic.

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, in connection with this, I will rephrase my

20 question. The expression used for the military police, is it rukovodilac,

21 meaning something like manager, or komandir, commander?

22 A. It should be komandir, in practice, commander.

23 Q. Do you agree that it would be unprofessional to say that

24 rukovodilac, the leader of the military police?

25 A. Yes. It's an unprofessional expression.

Page 6426

1 Q. Very well. I will move on now. During your testimony on Friday,

2 you said that the president of the War Presidency, Mr. Hajrudin Avdic,

3 called you on the 14th of October, 1992 and he said: "From today on

4 Mirzet Halilovic is under your command". Is this correct?

5 A. Yes, it's correct. I received this in writing, dated the 14th of

6 October, 1992.

7 Q. Very well. Thank you. Do you agree with me then that the War

8 Presidency, putting the commander of the military police under your

9 authority was, in fact, commanding the military police in this way?

10 A. In the signature on the document I received, that's what it says,

11 because the document I received, that I had authority over the military

12 police commander, this was signed by the president of the Presidency.

13 Q. Thank you.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Vidovic, this has been covered already, both

15 during the in-chief and during your cross-examination. He was referred to

16 this yesterday. Whether the fact that Halilovic was put under his command

17 meant that the rest of the military police was also put under his command

18 and I think he covered that.

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I agree. But there is

20 another question that follows from the previous one, which I am about to

21 ask.

22 Q. On Friday, the Chamber asked who Mr. Halilovic was subordinated

23 to, on page 64 of the transcript, Friday's transcript, line 22 through 24

24 you answered: "According to the rule, he was subordinate to the army".

25 Mr. Bogilovic, I entirely agree with you that according to the

Page 6427












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 6428

1 rules, the military police was under the army's command. But will you

2 agree with me that rules are one thing and what happens in -- what

3 happened in the second half of 1992 and first half of 1993 in Srebrenica

4 was in fact something entirely different?

5 A. Yes, I agree.

6 Q. In other words, Mr. Bogilovic, at the time things didn't exactly

7 go according to the rules in Srebrenica, did they?

8 A. No. There was no way they could have.

9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can I have the usher's assistance

10 now. I would like to show the witness part of Exhibit P84. P84. It's

11 the war log and the number of the page is 02115050.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: It's page 7 on the English text.

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] It's page 7, yes. I will be showing

14 some bits midway down the page, as well as the last paragraph.

15 Mr. Bogilovic, if you can please have a look. You weren't able to

16 read the handwriting, so I will now read it out to you. Just

17 under "organisation and functioning." Just under "organisation and

18 functioning of the civilian and military authorities in the free

19 territory," it reads:

20 "The meeting was called to order by Osman Osmanovic. He pointed

21 out that we were facing problems regarding the functioning of the system.

22 The War Presidency to staffs - civil protection". Ramiz then took the

23 floor saying: "The War Presidency stands in for the Assembly", and then

24 he enumerates the various tasks discharged by the War Presidency. And

25 then just underneath he says: "Hierarchy." If you can have a look. This

Page 6429

1 has been shown to you by the Prosecutor. "Reviews and assesses the war

2 situation. Makes decisions. It is the supreme authority and the supreme

3 command."

4 Mr. Bogilovic, do you agree that what was being discussed at the

5 time was the fact that the War Presidency was, in fact, the supreme

6 authority, the supreme body and the supreme command. You were present,

7 after all, were you not?

8 A. Yes I was there and this was precisely what was discussed and no

9 one could tell which came first.

10 Q. Can you now please look at the continuation, where it speaks about

11 the War Presidency. It reads: "Command exercised through the staff.

12 Direct command over the military police, but simultaneously the military

13 police is subordinated to the armed forces staff".

14 So my question would be, do you agree that what it says here is

15 that the War Presidency is the direct commander of the military police?

16 A. Yes, I agree, because the president gave me a copy of this

17 decision that was signed.

18 Q. Thank you very much. When asked by the Prosecutor on Friday

19 whether prior to being subordinated to Mirzet Halilovic was within the

20 chain of command -- within the military chain of command, you answered

21 yes.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, I put it to you that in the military, on the 14th

24 in October 1992 in Srebrenica there was no complete military chain of

25 command. Do you agree with me?

Page 6430

1 A. Yes, I do, because there were no proper authorities in place in

2 order to set up a thing like that.

3 Q. Thank you. When you said that in the army -- that the military

4 police was in the army's chain of command, you meant that's what it should

5 have been like, in terms of the regulations?

6 A. Yes. That's precisely what I had in mind.

7 Q. Thank you. But in actual fact, even prior to the 14th of October,

8 1992, as well as after, at least until as long-- as late as the end of

9 1992, it was the War Presidency that exercised direct command over the

10 military police. Was it not?

11 A. When I was appointed on the 14th of October, I answered to the War

12 Presidency, or rather, to Mr. Hajrudin. In view of the confusion and

13 misunderstanding, I was supposed to submit my reports to Hajrudin and this

14 is precisely what I did.

15 Q. It's true, isn't it, that it was the War Presidency that took the

16 decision to replace Mirzet Halilovic?

17 A. I think after I submitted the proposal, the command was involved

18 too and it was a unanimous decision once everyone had been informed of the

19 situation. The vote to replace Mirzet Halilovic - or suspend him,

20 whichever way you like - was a unanimous decision.

21 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, did you at any point find out that Mirzet Halilovic

22 had been replaced on grounds of suspicion that a murder had been committed

23 in the prison?

24 A. I knew nothing about that. I'm sorry not to have the document

25 here now, because I had gathered quite some evidence about this.

Page 6431

1 Q. But did you hear anything like this being said in connection with

2 his removal or replacement?

3 A. No. Nothing along these lines at all.

4 Q. Thank you. It's true, isn't it, that it was the War Presidency

5 that took the decision to appoint Krdzic? You did see that decision

6 yesterday, didn't you? You remember that?

7 A. I do remember. I did see it yesterday, but I'm unable to confirm

8 this. The discussion was about who the replacement should be.

9 Q. You don't have to answer this one now, Mr. Bogilovic, because I

10 will come back to this question and this document later on.

11 Let me ask you a different question now.

12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can I have the usher's assistance

13 please. I would like to show the witness another excerpt from the OTP's

14 P84 and the page is 5057.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Page 12 and 13 of the English text.

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. This is a meeting of the Srebrenica armed forces staff and the

18 date is 23rd of October, 1992. Mr. Bogilovic, since you have a hard time

19 deciphering the handwriting, I will quote to you what it says under A1.

20 Can you follow?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. A letter sent from the Biljeg Battalion was read out requesting

23 appropriate measures to be taken with regard to soldiers and civilians

24 stirring trouble on the ground. A decision was taken to forward a

25 decision on the soldiers to the military police in order to bring them in.

Page 6432

1 And the civilian police will do the same in regard of civilians.

2 First of all, Tihic Ah -- Ahmo must draw a distinction between

3 soldiers and civilians. In relation to that I will ask you the following.

4 It's true isn't it that throughout 1992 and the first month --

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Usher, you have to go to Page 13, bottom of Page 12

6 and the first part of page 13 and what's more important is on page 13, the

7 top of page 13 and not what is on Page 12.

8 Yes. Madam Vidovic, I apologize to you for the short

9 interruption.

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, it's true, isn't it, that throughout 1992 as well

12 as the first months of 1993 most people in Srebrenica were entirely

13 unclear about this distinction between civilians and soldiers. There was

14 no clearcut separation between the two. People were not familiar with

15 these terms in a formal sense, were they?

16 A. You're quite right. A soldier would wear the same clothes as a

17 civilian. It was difficult to tell. As for food, everyone would go to

18 get food, men and women.

19 Q. It's true, isn't it, that this part of the transcript that I have

20 read out to you claims that an order should be forwarded to the military

21 police with regard to soldiers, four soldiers to be brought in and that

22 the civilian police should be in charge of bringing in civilians.

23 Forwarding an order is not quite the same thing as ordering the respective

24 police forces to do something. Am I right?

25 A. You're entirely right. Both police forces should be -- should

Page 6433

1 know what to do. If there was someone causing a public disturbance,

2 obviously this person would have to be brought in and interrogated and

3 take whatever steps could be taken. There were no courts, after all, to

4 turn to at the time.

5 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, the essence of my question goes to the following.

6 It is not quite the same thing to forward an order and to issue and order.

7 Would I right in saying that if you can say?

8 A. Order and execution is the same.

9 Q. But forwarding an order, can it be the same thing? And you were a

10 police officer yourself so you should know, because you received orders

11 and you passed orders on. If you pass on an order down the line from a

12 superior command, sometimes it means nothing else. You just pass it on

13 down the line to a subordinate command.

14 A. Yes. If an order was given to a commander then the commander

15 would have been duty bound to carry it out. If he was tasked to carry out

16 an assessment of the situation, it would have been entirely down to him

17 and no one else.

18 Q. But I asked you about passing on or forwarding an order. That is

19 not the same as issuing an order.

20 A. Quite certainly so.

21 Q. Can you please now look at the second to last sentence on the same

22 page of the log book. It reads: "The conclusion is hereby adopted that

23 an interview should be conducted with the military police commander at the

24 staff in the presence of the commander regarding the functioning of the

25 military police".

Page 6434

1 Mr. Bogilovic, you occupied a leading position in the police

2 force. Would it not have been entirely common or usual for a commander or

3 any superior officer to simply issue an order to one of their subordinates

4 to act in a certain way instead of holding an interview with that person.

5 Am I right?

6 A. In terms of hierarchy, in terms of personnel, in terms of the

7 chain of command, he should go and report to his first commander, then to

8 his second commander. As for the rest, yes, I entirely agree.

9 Q. Can we now show the witness an excerpt, a different one from P84.

10 The page is 02115075. In English this is page 24 and 25. Mr. Bogilovic,

11 we will now be showing you an excerpt from a meeting of the Srebrenica

12 armed forces staff dated the 10th of November, 1992.

13 Can you please have a look midway down the page, the first

14 sentence, under the Roman numeral II. It reads -- if you turn -- it's two

15 pages further on, you will see that these are minutes from the 10th of

16 November session of the staff. 1992. These are minutes, just under the

17 Roman numeral II.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Page 25, usher, please.

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. 5075, the Bosnian version. We can give you a hand if you don't

21 have it there.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Usher, can you check exactly which page the witness

23 is reading from please. The ERN number. It is the right one? Yes. Do

24 you see a Roman two, a big Roman two there?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

Page 6435

1 JUDGE AGIUS: The sentence which starts immediately below that

2 number.

3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Indeed, Your Honour. Right there.

4 It says: "Cooperation with the military police is good".

5 Q. So, Mr. Bogilovic, at the staff meeting, cooperation with the

6 military police is under discussion, isn't it.

7 A. Yes.

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well. Can the usher now please

9 show the witness a different excerpt from P84. The page is 0215063. The

10 relevant page in English is 16 and 17, are the page numbers.

11 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, please have a look. This is an excerpt from the

12 minutes of a meeting of the staff held on the 3rd of November, 1992 which

13 I will now quote from.

14 I am quoting the bit that is just further down from "conclusions

15 and proposals" so you have a meeting of the armed forces staff 3rd of

16 November. Then it says, "conclusions and proposals" and then it says,

17 "schedule a meeting of RP", of the War Presidency.

18 It says here, "In addition to the members of the staff, B Ramiz

19 shall also take part in the meeting of the Presidency. The meeting has

20 now agenda as yet".

21 JUDGE AGIUS: We need to have page 17, top of page 17 on the ELMO.

22 It is? Okay. Can you start again, Madam Vidovic. You can start after

23 that a meeting of the War Presidency should be convened.

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. "In addition to the chief of staff, the meeting of the War

Page 6436

1 Presidency shall also be attended by B Ramiz. The meeting has no agenda,

2 but it can be concluded from the announcement that the functioning of the

3 two police forces will be discussed".

4 My question, Mr. Bogilovic, is: It is quite obvious that it is

5 the War Presidency that is about to discuss the functioning of the two

6 police forces, both military and civilian. Would I be right in saying

7 this?

8 A. Yes, based on this.

9 Q. I will read to you the last sentence of this part of the minutes

10 with reference to the civilian and military police, "the staff thinks that

11 staff changes are indispensable".

12 You will agree with me, will you not, that the staff is only

13 expressing its opinion and that it will be the War Presidency that will

14 discuss both police forces?

15 A. According to this, yes.

16 Q. Thank you. I would now like to ask the usher to show the witness

17 another excerpt from the war log, from document P84, page 02115071. And

18 the relevant part in English is on pages 21 and 22 at the beginning, the

19 first paragraph on page 22, in the English version.

20 Mr. Bogilovic, this is an excerpt from a joint session of the War

21 Presidency and the Territorial Defence staff of the 19th [sic] of

22 November, 1992. I will quote what Mirzet says.

23 "You gave me" -- can you find it?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. "You gave me a free hand for two months. Is that good? But

Page 6437

1 somebody didn't like it, that the town had been put in order. People from

2 Potocari, the new people that I got, were worse".

3 In fact, Mr. Bogilovic, "Mirza" is Mirza Halilovic isn't he?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And here, he is saying that people from Potocari didn't want there

6 to be order in the town. It seems that there was a conflict between him

7 and the people from Potocari. Am I right?

8 A. According to what he says here, yes.

9 Q. Naser Oric comes from Potocari, doesn't he?

10 A. Yes, he does.

11 Q. Mr. Bogilovic --

12 MS. SELLERS: Excuse me, Your Honour, I would like to have the

13 transcript corrected. I believe this is a meeting from the 9th of

14 November. I believe the transcript says the 19th of November.

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. It is 9th of November.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. The meeting I confirm is the 9th of November.

17 So this correct for all intents and purposes where, in the transcript,

18 line 17 of page 61, there is indicated that it took place on the 19th of

19 November which is wrong. A mistake. Yes, let's continue, please. Thank

20 you, Ms. Sellers.

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, during your testimony, at one point, you said that

23 you risked your life drawing up information about Mirzet Halilovic?

24 A. That's correct.

25 Q. Do you agree with me that Mirzet Halilovic was a short-tempered

Page 6438

1 person, who under the then prevailing conditions in Srebrenica, it was not

2 possible to keep under control. Am I right in saying that?

3 A. Yes, you are. Because there was no structure to arrest him, try

4 him and lock him up.

5 Q. Thank you.

6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Would the usher now please show the

7 witness another excerpt from the Prosecutor's document, P84. These are

8 pages from 0215077 to 02115079. In the English version, these are pages

9 26 to 29. These are minutes from a session of the staff of the armed

10 forces of the 22nd of November, 1992.

11 Q. Would you please look at the sentence that starts under the Roman

12 numeral five. So please turn to page 2 and you will see the Roman numeral

13 five. Underneath it says, I quote: "Osman reported on the position of

14 the War Presidency regarding the reorganisation of the military police. A

15 request was a dismissal of the commander was also read".

16 Do you see that?

17 A. Yes, I do.

18 Q. If you will then turn the page, please. Yesterday, during your

19 testimony, you were shown this page and told that in the middle it says

20 "Mirzet Halilovic's resignation is unanimously accepted". Mr. Halilovic

21 [sic], what we have here are two different notes about the same fact.

22 Isn't that so?

23 A. I think that Mirzet was dismissed, not that he resigned.

24 Q. Thank you. So will you agree with me that there was a demand for

25 his dismissal and that he was dismissed, not that he resigned?

Page 6439

1 A. Well, it says here he resigned, but in fact he was dismissed.

2 Q. Would you please look at all the names listed here as having taken

3 part in the discussion. Would you please look at them. Do you agree that

4 Mirzet Halilovic did not attend this session so he couldn't have

5 resigned?

6 Q. Naser, Hamed. Take a good look, please.

7 A. Afdic, Zulfo, Osman. He did not participate in the discussion,

8 according to this.

9 Q. Thank you. Mr. Bogilovic, I will now ask you something else with

10 reference to the military police. In fact what was referred to as the

11 military police in Srebrenica during 1992 and early 19 --

12 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Madam Vidovic, before you proceed with

13 your next question. So referring you back to the sentence, that

14 particular sentence in part 5 part five of the page that you were referred

15 to. When it says that Osman reported the position of the RP regarding the

16 reorganisation of the VP, which is the military police. And then "a

17 request for the dismissal of the commander was also read." Whose request

18 would that be? Yes.

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I am not sure that the

20 translation into English is correct. Mr. Bogilovic please follow me. In

21 the Bosnian version it says: "Osman reported on the position of the War

22 Presidency about the reorganisation of the military police."

23 He did not report to the War Presidency. He reported on the

24 position of the War Presidency.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: My question has got nothing to do with that, Madam

Page 6440

1 Vidovic. My question is regarding the reorganisation of the VP. I read

2 it just for the sake of having read it to refer the witness to the two

3 lines of that particular -- from that particular page.

4 My question relates to the last part of that -- of those two

5 lines. A request for the dismissal of the commander was also read.

6 Whose request was read? Who had made that request? Is it your

7 letter that you had referred to earlier on that was read? Or is it

8 someone else's request for the dismissal of the commander that was read?

9 Please try to remember, because this is very important. It seems

10 that at that meeting we have established the following: Halilovic was not

11 there. We have established also that Halilovic did not actually resign

12 out of his own free will or sent any letter of resignation. But --

13 MS. SELLERS: Excuse me, Your Honour. With all due respect, I

14 would like to say that I think the witness did not say that Halilovic was

15 not there, that he did not participate, because his name was not listed as

16 one of the people present.

17 The other thing is I think we have to make

18 it clear, I don't know whether Madam Vidovic has asked Mr. Bogilovic

19 whether he was present at this meeting. We did go over that on direct

20 testimony.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Let's clear that. Was Halilovic present

22 at this meeting or not? That you can recall. Yes, Mr. Bogilovic, you

23 have to tell us. I mean, say, yes, no, I don't remember, whatever your

24 answer --

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember. I know that Mr.

Page 6441












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 6442

1 Halilovic did not resign either in writing or orally. I know that Mr.

2 Halilovic was dismissed after a debate on his behaviour and his actions.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. But it also says here that a request for the

4 dismissal of the commander was also read. Whose request was read? Was it

5 your request? Was it your letter, the one that you said you wrote

6 believing that you were actually also risking your life by writing such a

7 letter? Was this the request that was read out during that meeting, or

8 was it something else, somebody else's request?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think this was a request based on

10 the evidence I had supplied and my letter. Most probably they had other

11 information as well. This was a request read out by the staff, because

12 Osman was in the staff. So it's their conclusion.

13 So Osman was informing the others that Mirzet had been dismissed

14 from his duty.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Vidovic. I will give him back to you, I

16 mean it's -- I don't have any further -- I would ask him, actually, who

17 would have formulated that request for the dismissal. But I think he is

18 suggesting it was Osman Osmanovic himself, that's if I read him well.

19 Yes.

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, you were not present at that session, were you? So

22 you are not sure who actually formulated the request.

23 A. I think it's a request by the staff.

24 Q. Thank you.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Let's move.

Page 6443

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. I will now move on and ask you something about the military

3 police. Mr. Bogilovic, what was referred to as the military police in

4 Srebrenica at the time and what should have been the military police

5 according to the regulations? The only thing they had in common was the

6 name; isn't that correct?

7 A. Yes, I agree. I had the same. I didn't have any other

8 conditions.

9 Q. Do you agree with me that the military police unit was not

10 complete until the end of 1992, it did not have the necessary equipment or

11 professional personnel until the end of 1992 and even later?

12 A. I think throughout the time I was there, up to the

13 demilitarisation, it never had the legal or proper or professional

14 organisation.

15 Q. Thank you. I will now ask the usher to show the witness another

16 excerpt from P87. This time it's page 02115086. I apologise, I said P84

17 [as interpreted]. Not P87. That's what I meant.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. And we are talking of pages 33 and 34 in

19 English, the English version.

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Three and 34.

21 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, look at the end of the page, the bottom where there

22 is the Roman numeral 4. And underneath you see that Akif Krdzic is

23 speaking.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. These are minutes from a session of the staff of the 4th of

Page 6444

1 December, 1992 and he says - I will quote briefly -"Akif Krdzic: The

2 military police is not complete. Many have given up because of food and

3 accommodation. There are no weapons (only two rifles and two pistols)."

4 Mr. Bogilovic, the military police unit had only two rifles and

5 two pistols and in the chaotic situation prevailing in Srebrenica in late

6 1992, do you agree that whoever commanded this military police, without

7 weapons and without professional staff, it was unable to function?

8 A. Yes. It's correct, it was unable to function, but all the other

9 structures were also missing the fundamental conditions.

10 Q. I agree with your, Mr. Bogilovic. I will ask you something else

11 now. The weapons that existed in Srebrenica were indispensable for the

12 defence of the lines from breakthroughs by the Serbs. And this was a

13 question of life and death in Srebrenica, wasn't it?

14 A. Yes.

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, should I move on now?

16 Or perhaps we could have a break now, because I'm moving on to a different

17 topic.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: You know that I don't interfere with either you or

19 the Prosecution when it comes to this. We have seven minutes. If you

20 don't think you can cover the next matter --

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Perhaps I can proceed, Your Honour.

22 Thank you. One more document.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: We can overstay by a couple of minutes and then we

24 will replace those minutes later. It's up to you. If you would like to

25 stop now, we will stop now.

Page 6445

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I will

2 proceed with the next document. I will now ask you something else.

3 Q. It's true, is it not, that the so-called operative staff was

4 established in September 1992. Am I correct?

5 A. At that time I was on sick leave. Most probably it was. Osman

6 Osmanovic was there, I think.

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Would the usher now please show the

8 witness an excerpt from P84, page 02115050. In English, it's pages 7 and

9 8.

10 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, this is a session that was held on the 14th of

11 October, 1992. You agreed on Friday that you were present, that your name

12 is reflected in the minutes. I will now read out to you Osman Osmanovic

13 said. It's just below the heading. He said: "We are facing problems of

14 the functioning -- assist the War Presidency to staff civilian

15 protection." [as interpreted]

16 And then you went on to say, I quote: "Due to a lack of

17 familiarity with the specific problems, we set up a war staff, a War

18 Presidency and an operations staff. The decisions are not implemented

19 that are made by any of these three different bodies."

20 That is what you said, didn't you?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And despite everything I would like to pause here, Your Honour,

23 and perhaps have a break, because I'm moving on to something.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Let's have a 25-minute break starting from

25 now, which means we will restart between 10 to and five to one o'clock.

Page 6446

1 --- Recess taken at 12.25 p.m.

2 --- On resuming at 12.55 p.m.


4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, before the break we spoke about what you had said

6 at the session of the staff on the 14th of October, 1992. You mentioned

7 that because people were not familiar with the problems, the war staff,

8 the War Presidency and an operations staff were set up.

9 Based on what recorded, it appears that in September and at least

10 until the 14th of October, 1992 there were two staffs functioning at the

11 same time. Is that correct?

12 A. I was away at the time, but if the problems remained unresolved,

13 that would seem to suggest that something was wrong.

14 Q. Is it your testimony that there were, in fact, two different

15 staffs in parallel for a while at least?

16 A. Two staffs? I believe one didn't know exactly what the purview

17 was of the War Presidency and the staff respectively.

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I'll ask you more questions about

19 that, but can I now have P79 shown to the witness, please.

20 Q. This is purported to be a document by the operations staff of the

21 armed forces of Srebrenica, number is 15/92. The date is the 19th of

22 September, 1992. The document was signed by Osman Osmanovic.

23 You saw the document yesterday. I will quote the first section of

24 the first paragraph of this decision, where it says right there, under the

25 heading "subject". It reads: "The chief of the operations staff of the

Page 6447

1 armed forces of Srebrenica, Osman Osmanovic, in accordance with the

2 decision of the War Presidency and given authorisations, proposes that the

3 operations staff of the armed forces in Srebrenica consists of the

4 following departments and persons". Names which I will not read out in

5 order not to waste more time on this.

6 Do you agree with me, Mr. Bogilovic, that in actual fact the chief

7 of the operations staff, Osman Osmanovic, had the authority pursuant to a

8 decision of the War Presidency to set up an operations staff, because

9 that's what the document indicates, doesn't it?

10 A. That is indeed true. Now, as to who he was subordinated to or who

11 he was superior to, these are military rules and guidelines that I'm not

12 familiar with. I wasn't then and I am not now.

13 Q. I will now read out part of this statement of reasons. It says

14 here: "From the time of appointment as chief of the operations staff, I

15 have worked on consulting the necessary personnel and departments

16 following which I drew up a proposal of the above. I propose that the

17 Presidency endorse this by a decision of their own and request that a

18 decision be -- or a decision be taken by those in the relevant positions

19 at the republican level.

20 Mr. Bogilovic, do you not agree that this document shows that

21 Naser Oric was, in fact, not consulted when these people were nominated?

22 A. Based on this, I believe this is actually about Osman Osmanovic,

23 the chief of the operations staff, and he runs the whole thing.

24 Q. Do you not agree that this is about communication between the

25 chief of the operations staff and the War Presidency?

Page 6448

1 A. Yes, indeed that's precisely what it says, because he's the one

2 informing the Presidency that they should inform the relevant authorities

3 at the republican level, and proceeds to give their names.

4 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, you touched on the subject a number of times what

5 I'm about to ask you. It's true, isn't it, that the persons who were

6 members of the War Presidency or one of the staffs were not familiar with

7 the sort of problems involved in the proper functioning of these bodies?

8 A. 99.999 per cent, they had no idea, they weren't trained, they

9 weren't qualified. All those who were qualified had already left by this

10 time.

11 Q. Therefore, most of these people were people with secondary

12 education, some of them worked in schools as teachers prior to the

13 outbreak of hostilities, didn't they?

14 A. Yes. But it should say team for the salvation of the people and

15 certainly not military, but as there was a war on, we assumed the name

16 "military", so there you have it.

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can you now please show the witness

18 a page from the military log, P84, again, the page number is 02115050. I

19 believe the witness already has the page before him. It should be the one

20 he's looking at. Can he please look at -- I think the page number is 8 in

21 the English.


23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, can you please have a look. We can see your name

25 on that document, Becir, and then just further down the name Zulfo.

Page 6449

1 A. Yes, I can see that.

2 Q. There is a sentence in the middle of this paragraph. He says,

3 "There is no unified command in the army". Have you found that? What

4 Zulfo is saying?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. It's in the middle of his contribution. I'm trying not to read

7 the whole paragraphs out in order to save time. It says, "One of the

8 staff's is dying. We have to cut these bodies down". I will read right

9 from the beginning what Zulfo is say. Zulfo says, "It is us who is to

10 blame for all this calamity".

11 MS. SELLERS: Prior to the break we looked at the paragraph above.

12 We didn't look at the last sentence in the paragraph above. Because of

13 the sentence you are pointing out now, I think it is in relationship to

14 what was said in the last sentence in the previous paragraph, by Mr.

15 Bogilovic and I think that maybe we should put that into context.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I agree, Ms. Sellers.

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

18 THE INTERPRETERS: [Interpretation] Microphone for the President.

19 [Microphone not activated]

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Have you found it, or not? It's at the bottom. The

21 last four lines, more or less, of the page, after you finished --

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: And we start with you, actually. What are the last

24 words that, according to this document you see? A peoples court should be

25 set up. The disorder was caused by the armed forces? Do you find it?

Page 6450

1 Can you read it there?

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I can read it out to the witness,

3 Your Honours, if you agree.

4 Q. The last two sentences, Mr. Bogilovic, "a peoples court should be

5 set up. It's the armed forces who caused trouble". These are the last

6 two sentences of your own contribution and then following from there --

7 have you got it?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Zulfo takes the floor and speaks. "It is us who is to blame for

10 all this calamity. We in this room, we need a military court not a

11 peoples' court. One of the staffs is dying and we must reduce these

12 bodies. There is no unified command in the army".

13 Then, if you could please turn to the next page, it's very much in

14 the same context as the question that I am about to ask. On page 5051,

15 still page 8 in English, Avdo speaks and I quote: "We must appoint people

16 to positions in power. We must unify command and set up a court martial.

17 We must appoint professionals to some of the departments". In connection

18 with these quotes, let me ask you the following.

19 It's true, Mr. Bogilovic, isn't it, that on the 14th of December,

20 1992, disunity of command was in fact debated?

21 A. Yes. That's why I think they called a joint meeting, a joint

22 session.

23 Q. It's true, isn't it, that on the 14th of October 1992 the

24 situation was, in fact, such that the staff was not in command of many,

25 many groups that were actually on the ground. Is this something you can

Page 6451

1 confirm?

2 A. Yes. I can also confirm that Mr. Ustic left arbitrarily of his

3 own free will, without consulting or asking anyone. He just scrammed and

4 he was killed.

5 Q. Are you trying to say that Mr. Ustic went to take action on his

6 own without consulting anyone?

7 A. Yes. But without food, without telling anyone, without taking any

8 of the soldiers with him. He just left.

9 Q. These armed groups, even at this time I'm talking about October

10 1992, kept functioning for quite a long time after such as Zulfo's army,

11 Akma's army, Hakija army, Naser's army and so on and so forth?

12 A. Yes. The names remained the same throughout.

13 Q. You will agree with me that the word of the local commanders,

14 these groups, was what mattered on the ground?

15 A. Yes. They were the chief order givers on the ground. They were

16 appointed by the people, chosen by the people, and the people obeyed them.

17 Q. Can you now please look at the next page 5052, last four digits,

18 page 9 in English. The war log. Midway down the page, Naser spoke. It's

19 Naser Oric we're talking about, aren't we?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. "Naser: What we should do about Hakija's unit? They refused to

22 hand their snipers over to Zulfo and to go to Fakovici." And then Delic

23 speaks: "You are sending us to another area which has not been

24 reconnoitred. You haven't given us any ammunition, whereas we have given

25 everyone everything that has been requested".

Page 6452

1 Then Osman speaks. "Hakija, could have said immediately at the

2 meeting whether he could go into action or not. Now he's trying to

3 justify himself. They failed to comply with quite a lot of things. Quite

4 a lot of things". Zulfo again: "I don't blame Hakija for not going into

5 action. He had asked for volunteers for an ambush after my return from

6 the action. I don't know whether it's true or not". And Naser speaks

7 again: "Why isn't the waterworks being watched"?

8 Mr. Bogilovic, in relation to what I just read out, this part of

9 the minutes reflects the situation on the ground faithfully as it was at

10 the time, doesn't it?

11 A. Yes, on the ground and in the terms of the way individuals were

12 organised.

13 Q. Thank you. It wasn't possible to do anything at all about the

14 local commander who failed to comply with the terms of the agreement. Is

15 that not right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. There was not enough ammunition, was there?

18 A. That's quite right. No ammunition, no clothes, no food, no

19 blankets.

20 Q. There was antagonism between various local commanders, was there

21 not?

22 A. Yes. For a while they secured their own basic bodyguards for

23 themselves. So the president of the municipality came to see me once

24 asking to have one assigned too, but I refused.

25 Q. Can you now please look at page 5051, halfway down the page it is

Page 6453

1 Naser speaking again. I quote:

2 "All the present problems were caused by issues to do with

3 organisation. What it all boils down to is that each do their own work

4 and you can have your petty quibbles about power later on. Please try to

5 see some sense. We must organise ourselves. Dig in and save ourselves.

6 Possibly there is more ammunition in Fakovici that has not been taken yet.

7 If we aspire to be an army, there must be order and there must be a

8 command".

9 Mr. Bogilovic, Naser Oric tried very hard to bring some order to

10 this whole situation, didn't he?

11 A. Yes. He was a very composed person by nature. He liked peace and

12 he liked order.

13 Q. It's true, Mr. Bogilovic, isn't it, that he spoke about the same

14 things on many other occasions that you're aware of, isn't it?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Can you now please look again at the same page. Osman Osmanovic

17 is the chief of the operations staff, so I'm quoting his contribution to

18 you. He says: "No society can function without authority, without bodies

19 of government. It seems that some of us do not want [illegible], but

20 rather to keep their own rules. We have a free territory and our own

21 armed forces. We need to set up the proper authorities, a court, and just

22 work on".

23 Then Hamdija speaks. This is Hamdija Fejzic, a member of the War

24 Presidency, isn't it?

25 A. Yes.

Page 6454

1 Q. His name is stated as Hamdija.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Just underneath Hajrudin Avdic's name, he says -- well, over here,

4 when you have the positions enumerated, Mr. Bogilovic, I am right when I

5 say that Hamdija was the president of the executive committee of the

6 municipality?

7 A. Yes, indeed.

8 Q. He said: "I do not agree that those who haven't even had a whiff

9 of war should be included in the bodies of government. The head of the

10 army and government must be someone whom people are ready to follow and

11 not educated people. Based on this, let me ask you. This is a position

12 put forward by Hamdija, a member of the War Presidency.

13 Does it not reflect a more general feeling in Srebrenica at the

14 time, that the army should be led, the army as well as the authorities,

15 should be led by someone whom people are prepared to follow, not

16 necessarily just educated people?

17 A. Yes. That is true.

18 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, it cannot in fact be claimed that all of this

19 reflected Oric's position, or indeed, that this was something that he

20 tried to impose on others at the time.

21 A. No. By no means could you say that.

22 Q. What is clearly reflected in this war log -- and you have seen a

23 number of sessions by now, Mr. Bogilovic -- is that very often staff

24 sessions were attended by members of the War Presidency, the entire War

25 Presidency or sometimes they would be represented by the chairman, the

Page 6455












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 6456

1 president.

2 A. On many occasions there were joint meetings that were held too.

3 Q. The War Presidency was adamant that a decision should be taken

4 regarding actions and that actions should be reported. They insisted that

5 they be informed about any actions taken. Is that true?

6 A. Yes, because there was a logistical problem.

7 Q. Thank you very much. It is possible to ascertain that those

8 people who were members either of the War Presidency or of the staff were

9 not familiar with the real purview of activity of the War Presidency of

10 the staff of the commander and so on and so forth?

11 A. Yes. That's quite true, and I believe we mentioned this a

12 couple of times already.

13 Q. In actual fact, their authorities overlapped didn't they?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. There was a state of chaos in terms of decision making, wasn't

16 there?

17 A. Yes.

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can I have the usher's assistance

19 now, please, I would like to show the witness OTP Exhibit P14.

20 Q. This is purported to be an order of the operation staff of the

21 armed forces of Srebrenica dated the 22nd of December, 1992. I am

22 quoting, Mr. Bogilovic.

23 "Pursuant to the decisions reached at the meeting of the

24 Srebrenica armed forces staff on the 22nd of December, 1992, the commander

25 of the Srebrenica armed forces issues the following order". And

Page 6457

1 underneath, "The 23rd of December, 1992, a meeting of the War Presidency

2 on the Srebrenica armed forces staff is to be held at 1000 hours".

3 Mr. Bogilovic, you have seen this decision before. Even assuming

4 that Oric had written this or indeed someone else on his behalf, do you

5 still agree that this decision reflects a lack of familiarity with the way

6 the relationship between a superior and a subordinate works? Could you

7 agree with that?

8 A. Yes, I can. I myself was puzzled by the fact that this body was

9 now ordering that a meeting of the War Presidency be held.

10 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, can you confirm that Oric was not an arrogant

11 person who imposed his own positions on the War Presidency.

12 A. By nature he was very taciturn. He spoke little. He mostly

13 pointed out mistakes in order to improve work.

14 Q. One cannot say that he imposed his own viewpoints on the

15 Presidency?

16 A. No. Certainly not.

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I will now show you

18 another document. The number is 0178773. Please look at this document.

19 Q. The document was issued by the staff of the armed forces of

20 Srebrenica on the 2nd of August '92 and it says, "decision", but please

21 first look at the heading of the document where it says, "Republic of

22 Bosnia and Herzegovina, Municipal Staff of the armed forces, Srebrenica".

23 And then, please, look at the signature underneath where it says,

24 "President of the War Presidency, Hajrudin Avdic".

25 You will agree with me, Mr. Bogilovic, that the heading is that of

Page 6458

1 the staff and that the signature is that of the president of the War

2 Presidency, Hajrudin Avdic.

3 This confirms, does it not, that neither in the staff nor in the

4 War Presidency did people know how to draw up documents properly? Am I

5 right?

6 A. First of all, this document is something I've seen here for the

7 first time. I know these two men, Edhem and Sabahudin.

8 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, can you answer my question, please. Do you agree,

9 please, that the heading is that of one body and the signature is that of

10 the president of a different body. So do you agree with me that this

11 shows that neither the War Presidency nor the staff, that is people

12 working there, knew how to draw up documents properly?

13 A. Of course I agree with you, because the introductory part should

14 be confirmed by the end of the document.

15 Q. Thank you, Mr. Bogilovic.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, because there's something that calls for

17 some explanation. In the English text, between the heading and the text,

18 there is handwritten "EB MUP ministry of the interior/03/on copy/E-1- 15".

19 I don't see anything on the B/C/S document that you've given us here. Is

20 this a different document or what is it?

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I can explain this.

22 The translator put in our marking under which we gave this document to the

23 translation service. This is our mark which we put on the document when

24 we gave it to the translators. It has nothing to do with the original

25 document. I know that it is like our markings.

Page 6459

1 JUDGE AGIUS: This will be 239. Correct?

2 THE REGISTRAR: Correct, Your Honour.

3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. D239.

4 Defence Exhibit D239.

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, --

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Again there is another mistake, because I said D239,

8 Defence Exhibit 239, not Ms. Vidovic. It appears that -- but what I was

9 saying was being said by Ms. Vidovic. Let's proceed anyway because we

10 have corrected it. Yes, Madam Vidovic.

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, it's correct, is it not, that the War Presidency

13 and the staff interfered in each other's fears of competence?

14 A. Yes, yes, because they didn't know who was senior and who was

15 junior among them.

16 Q. Thank you. There were no regulations, instructions. Am I right,

17 no guidelines?

18 A. Yes, you are.

19 Q. The War Presidency itself did not issue any instructions on the

20 functioning of the staff and the conditions of war. Are you aware of

21 that?

22 A. It did not enact any statute or a rule book or anything of the

23 sort. We didn't know how to do that.

24 Q. Thank you. From Tuzla or Sarajevo, until the demilitarisation,

25 did any of you receive any instructions or regulations. Is this correct?

Page 6460

1 A. As far as the SUP was concerned, certainly not. And if I didn't

2 receive any such thing, neither did anybody else. Because I never saw any

3 rules of procedure arriving anywhere.

4 Q. Thank you very much. I will now move on to another topic. The

5 security tasks in the staff were first mentioned in October 1992. Do you

6 agree with me?

7 A. I think that was when Osman came.

8 Q. Yes. You said that on the 14th of October, 1992, the staff gained

9 its security assistance in the form of Hamid Salihovic. Is this correct?

10 A. Yes. There was no such person until then.

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well. I will now ask the usher

12 to show the witness Prosecution Exhibit P221. The ERN number is 03721495.

13 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, would you please look at the document. This is a

14 decision of the appointment of Hamed Salihovic as chief for intelligence

15 and security affairs?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. It is signed by the president of the War Presidency, Mr. Hajrudin

18 Avdic. Would you please now look at item 5. Look at Roman numeral five.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. It says, "The decision shall take affect on the day of its

21 adoption and the nominated and appointed person shall be obliged to report

22 immediately to the chief of staff of the armed forces". And the next

23 sentence reads, "The appointed person shall be directly accountable for

24 his work to the chief of staff of the armed forces".

25 It's correct, is it not, that the chief of staff of the armed

Page 6461

1 forces was Osman Osmanovic?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, this means that if he sent any reports, Hamed

4 Salihovic as chief for security, was duty bound to deliver these to Osman

5 Osmanovic as his direct superior. Am I correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Now, would the usher

8 please show the witness another excerpt from P84, the war diary. This

9 time page 02115065. These are English pages 17 and 18. This is the

10 minutes of a session of the staff of the 7th of November 1992.

11 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, please look at Roman numeral two and I quote what

12 it says here in Roman numeral two. "Hamed Salihovic, a member of the

13 staff, submitted an oral report on the visit of some commanding officers

14 to Konjevic Polje and Cerska from the first to fifth of November 1992.

15 During that period, a series of meetings was held in the free territories

16 of the municipalities of Zvornik, Vlasenica and Bratunac. At the

17 meetings, it was concluded by the representatives of the municipalities,

18 and confirmed by the above municipalities, Srebrenik, Bratunac, Vlasenica,

19 Zvornik, that they should be merged into a subregion. The War Presidency

20 of the subregion, the commander of its armed forces and its armed forces

21 operations staff were elected.

22 "What remains is for the War Presidency of Srebrenica to ratify

23 these decisions. Our commander up to now, Naser O, has been elected

24 commander of the armed forces of this subregion.

25 "Our staff members, Hamid S and Hazim Dz were elected to the

Page 6462

1 following posts: Hamid S was elected president of the War Presidency,

2 that is, for the president of the War Presidency".

3 Mr. Bogilovic, I will ask you the following question about this.

4 S Hamid, is that Hamed Salihovic?

5 A. Yes, I think it is.

6 Q. In the staff of the armed forces in Srebrenica, there was no other

7 Hamid S, was there? Other than Hamed Salihovic?

8 A. Yes. Hamed Salihovic.

9 Q. Thank you. Mr. Bogilovic, let us know leave aside the fact of

10 whether the subregion was ever put into practice or not. But it's true,

11 is it not, that in early November 1992, Hamed Salihovic was fully engaged

12 and busy in the attempts to establish the subregion and to unify the

13 command. Can you confirm this?

14 A. As for the creation of the subregion, I did not participate in

15 this and I was not involved, but I did find out that Hamed Salihovic was

16 in charge of that.

17 Q. Thank you. From the 1st of November onwards, he was in Konjevic

18 Polje and Cerska when he was appointed to the War Presidency of the

19 subregion?

20 A. I'm not aware of his movements.

21 Q. Are you aware that at that time, from November 1992 onwards,

22 Cerska and Konjevic Polje were in a very difficult situation because of

23 Serb attacks?

24 A. Yes, I'm aware of that. It was constantly on the news. And there

25 were constant appeals for assistance.

Page 6463

1 Q. Hamed Salihovic was very busy. He had his hands full trying to

2 unify the army. He wrote appeals to the authorities of Tuzla,

3 Bosnia-Herzegovina, the international community and so and so forth. Did

4 you hear about this?

5 A. Yes. He was a literate man and this probably got on someone's

6 nerves. He was literate compared to the rest of us.

7 Q. Don't you think that he was doing this because he had been

8 appointed president of the War Presidency of the subregion and it was in

9 that capacity that he was attempting to do something?

10 A. Well probably, yes. But as the number 1 person, he should have

11 had the necessary resources.

12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I will now ask the usher

13 to show the witness one other document, P177.

14 Q. This is a decision of the War Presidency of the subregion. Could

15 you please take a look at it.

16 A. Yes, I'm looking at it.

17 Q. If this decision is authentic, it reads as follows -- I quote:

18 "The War Presidency of the subregion of Srebrenica, Bratunac,

19 Vlasenica and Zvornik municipalities and the staff of the subregion armed

20 forces at the joint meeting held on the 7th of February 1993 Konjevic

21 Polje Bratunac municipality passed the following decision.

22 "In case the Presidency of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina and

23 the general staff of the armed forces of Bosnia-Herzegovina do not

24 implement the decisions of the Presidency of the subregion and the staff

25 of the subregion armed forces of the 7th of February 1993, that

Page 6464

1 municipality will organise itself politically with a view to survival in

2 this area of these territories. And the decision shall take effect on the

3 date of its adoption."

4 Mr. Bogilovic, if this document is authentic, it would appear that

5 the War Presidency of the subregion around the 7th of February 1993, had

6 very serious problems in this area.

7 Do you agree that the situation was very difficult on the 7th

8 of -- around the 7th of February, 1993?

9 A. I agree about the situation that it was very difficult. It was

10 more than difficult. As for what is written here, I cannot testify about

11 it because I have never seen this before.

12 Q. Thank you. Very well. If this document is authentic, the

13 president of the War Presidency, Salihovic was evidently dealing with

14 major political issues such as the political organisation of the

15 municipalities in the subregion. Would you agree?

16 A. Yes. Because in the elections he was among the leading people in

17 the party and this is probably what irritated people and why he continued

18 working.

19 Q. Your Honours, as I am now rounding off this topic. This might be

20 a good time to break. I am very far advanced in my examination.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you very much, Madam Vidovic. That is what we

22 will do and we will also give a well deserved rest to the witness.

23 Tomorrow will be your last day here, Mr. Bogilovic. In the

24 meantime, you will be escorted out of the courtroom by Madam Usher.

25 Please rest so that you will come here fresh tomorrow morning at 9.00 when

Page 6465

1 we restart.

2 We stand adjourned until tomorrow morning at 9 o'clock. Thank

3 you.

4 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.40 p.m, to

5 be reconvened on Wednesday, the 23rd day of March,

6 2005, at 9.00 a.m.