1 Tuesday, 5 April 2005.

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, good morning, Mr. Registrar. Could you call

6 the case, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: This is case number IT-03-68-T, the Prosecutor

8 versus Naser Oric.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. And good morning to you.

10 Mr. Oric, can you follow the proceedings in your own language.

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. Yes, I

12 can.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. Please sit down. Appearances for the

14 Prosecution.

15 MS. SELLERS: Good morning Your Honours I'm Patricia Sellers

16 representing the Prosecution. Today with me is co-counsel,

17 Mr. Jose Doria, and our case manager, Mrs. Donnica Henry-Frijlink.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you and good morning to you madam and to

19 your team.

20 Appearances for Naser Oric.

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. I am

22 Vasvija Vidovic, and together with Mr. John Jones I represent Mr. Naser

23 Oric. Together with us, our legal assistant Miss Adisa Mehic, and our

24 case manager, Mr. Geoff Roberts. And good morning to our learned

25 colleagues from the Prosecutor.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, madam, and good morning to you and your

2 team.

3 I am experiencing, in my headphones a lot of background voices,

4 and B/C/S in particular. I don't know if I am on the right channel. I

5 mean, that's not a problem. I don't know if it's just me or if it's ...

6 JUDGE ESER: It's better now.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: No. For me it is worse now. I am hearing one

8 particular person, A woman's voice translating what I am saying into

9 B/C/S. So it's only me? It's the chairman's privilege? You too? You

10 must be aspiring to become chairman.

11 So -- I don't know. We can carry on, it is not disturbing me that

12 much. I wanted to make sure it didn't disturb the others.

13 MR. JONES: Yes. I'm not experiencing that problem.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Thank you.

15 MS. SELLERS: Neither are we, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay. So any preliminaries before we go

17 into videolink?

18 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour the only preliminary to announce is that

19 we will be going forward with the next witness and we would ask that it

20 would be done between a break in the court sessions.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I thank you.

22 Mr. Jones, Madam Vidovic.

23 MR. JONES: No preliminaries, no.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, thank you. So let's connect with wherever the

25 witness is by videolink and proceed with her testimony

1 [Trial Chamber confers with technicians]

2 JUDGE AGIUS: I am not being interpreted at the moment, but could

3 the interpreters who were interpreting before continue interpreting as if

4 under normal circumstances so that I see whether I can hear their voices

5 as well.

6 THE INTERPRETER: Testing, 1, 2, 3, 4.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: No, that's not what I meant. What I meant is,

8 interpreting while I am speaking, in other words as you were doing before,

9 during the proceedings.

10 THE INTERPRETER: Your Honour, I'm doing it.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: So I think it seems to be fine. Now may I ask.

12 JUDGE ESER: No.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: No, it's not. It's not. I can still hear the

14 interpretation. I can still hear the interpretation. Anyway, let's

15 proceed while they deal with the problem. Let's go into videolink,

16 please.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Good morning. I want to make sure that you

18 are receiving us.

19 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, good morning, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So you have tested the microphone as well.

21 Good morning to you. Is the witness present?

22 THE REGISTRAR: Yes.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: I think you can bring her in and we can proceed with

24 her cross-examination.

25 WITNESS: Stana Stamenic [Resumed]

1 Cross-examined by Mr. Jones: [Continued]

2 [Witness testified via videolink]

3 [Witness answered through interpretation]

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Good morning, Madam Stamenic.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Welcome back. We are going to proceed and

7 conclude -- proceed with and conclude the cross-examination this morning.

8 So before the next break, this should be all over and you will be able to

9 return home.

10 I just wanted to remind you of the solemn declaration that you

11 entered yesterday, which is still valid and binding for today's continued

12 testimony of yours. I also would like to remind you that if at any time

13 there are problems with interpretation or with the visual transmission, to

14 please draw our attention straight away, either directly or through the

15 intervention of the -- of Madam Registrar, who is there with you in the

16 room. Did I make myself clear?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: So, Mr. Jones will continue with his

19 cross-examination now. Thank you. Mr. Jones.

20 MR. JONES: Yes, thank you Your Honour. I must say I had

21 difficulty just hearing the witness's responses there, or the

22 interpretation of the responses.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Please do tell us.

24 MR. JONES: Yes.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Can I -- let me ask the witness to say something

1 again. In my case, it was okay. I mean, I was receiving interpretation

2 and I could even hear her.

3 MR. JONES: Right. Well I can start and if there is any problem I

4 will immediately draw it to your attention.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, thank you Mr. Jones.

6 MR. JONES:

7 Q. Now, Ms. Stamenic. Good morning, firstly.

8 A. Good morning.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Is it okay, Mr. Jones.

10 MR. JONES: Yes, yes. Thank you, Your Honour.

11 Q. Now, I want to start with a clarification or two of what you

12 testified about yesterday, specifically in relation to Djemila, the Muslim

13 woman who was a friend of your family before the war.

14 Now, first of all, what was her last name, if you could help us

15 with that?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Sorry could you repeat your answer, please?

18 A. No.

19 Q. All right. I heard her saying "ne znam" which would be "I don't

20 know," and it was interpreted as "no." But perhaps it comes to the same

21 thing. Could you help us with how old she was at the time, in January

22 1993, approximately?

23 A. She was in her middle ages.

24 Q. Now, you told us yesterday that she wasn't living in Dobrak at the

25 time. Firstly, how did you know that?

1 A. Because they were refugees.

2 Q. And how do you know that they were refugees?

3 A. They had been expelled.

4 Q. Do you know who they had been expelled by?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Now, you saw her at or around 6.00 a.m. on the morning of the 16th

7 of January, 1993, by your house. Were you surprised to see her there at

8 that time?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Did you speak to her while she was dressing your wounds or while

11 she was waiting with you, before you were loaded on the ox cart, and find

12 out what her situation was and where she was staying?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Are there woods near your hamlet or where -- your former hamlet,

15 if you're not living there now?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Did she not tell you that she and others had had to go and live in

18 the woods after they'd been expelled?

19 A. No.

20 Q. All right. So you don't know where she was living at that time?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Now you wouldn't describe her as a soldier, would you?

23 A. No.

24 Q. And Ismet, the postman whom you've described, he was also a

25 civilian; correct?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. So it's right, isn't it, that when you came to your house and you

3 saw it burning, that there were civilians there in the vicinity of your

4 house as well as what you've described as soldiers?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And isn't it true that there were great many civilians in the

7 vicinity of your house when you came back?

8 A. Both civilians and soldiers.

9 Q. Right. And a great many civilians, would you agree?

10 A. There were many.

11 Q. Now, going back to where we left off yesterday, when we left off

12 you arrived in Srebrenica and you'd been taken to the hospital, and this

13 was on the 17th of January, 1993. How long did you stay in the hospital

14 for?

15 A. I don't know exactly. I stayed there while my wounds were being

16 dressed.

17 Q. Yes. Just to give us a rough idea, was it an hour, two hours?

18 More? Less?

19 A. Maybe half an hour.

20 Q. Now, you had an opportunity, didn't you, to observe the conditions

21 in the hospital? Would you agree that the conditions were appalling?

22 A. I was not looking.

23 Q. Well, did you see other patients there in the hospital?

24 A. The personnel.

25 Q. Wasn't there in the hospital a terrible smell of unwashed bodies

1 and illness?

2 A. I don't remember.

3 Q. I would like to read an extract from a book which is an exhibit in

4 this case, for your reaction. You won't have it in front of you and you

5 don't need it in front of you, but it's D199, "war hospital," pages 93 to

6 94 for our reference. And This describes a visit to Srebrenica hospital

7 by a doctor from MSF, in December 1992. So a month or so before you were

8 there.

9 On page 93, third paragraph, it's written: "On each bed lies a

10 patient, on each patient lies a dirty, stained bed sheet, that is all. No

11 IV bags drip. No machines beep. No bottles of medicine sit on the night

12 stands.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Jones, what time, particular time is that quote

14 related to?

15 MR. JONES: December 1992. So just about a month before.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

17 MR. JONES:

18 Q. Now, first do you agree that conditions in the hospital were as

19 dirty and primitive as described in that section?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. It was nothing like a modern hospital, was it?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Would you agree it was nothing like -- sorry. We have a technical

24 issue.

25 It was nothing like as nice and clean and modern and well-equipped

1 as the hospital in Uzice where you were treated in Serbia after your

2 release?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And while you'd been treated in Uzice, isn't it right that that's

5 also where VRS soldiers and other Serb soldiers were treated, if you

6 noticed that?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Now, going back to this extract, page 93: "On one of the beds a

9 small girl lies crying. Eric," and that's the foreign doctor being shown

10 around the hospital, "sees that she has a broken arm where there should be

11 a cast put on the arm and helping it heal, two tree branches are affixed

12 with scotch tape."

13 Now, pausing there, would you agree that that describes a similar

14 situation to yours, perhaps, less than adequate treatment being provided

15 for, but the doctors doing their best under very difficult circumstances?

16 Would you agree with that?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And finally, and it is turning the page, page 94: "The most vivid

19 image in his mind is of that crying little girl with her pathetic homemade

20 splint. They could have devised something better for her," he

21 thinks. "All of it lends the impression of a medical team so overwhelmed

22 by the situation that they are no longer able to see what they can

23 achieve. They've all but given up".

24 Now you were there in that hospital in January 1993 and treated by

25 these doctors in Srebrenica, did you get that impression, that they were

1 doing their very best for you, but that they were burnt out and lacking

2 equipment?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And finally on that theme, you didn't have the impression, did

5 you, that you received any inferior treatment because you were a Serb?

6 A. I don't remember.

7 Q. Now, you did tell us yesterday that when were you in the hospital

8 a soldier came and kicked you because there was a dead Muslim soldier, and

9 he somehow held you responsible for the death of that soldier. And then

10 another soldier made him stop. Now a question or two about that. Is that

11 what you told ICTY investigators when you were interviewed by them on the

12 25th of May, 2000?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Well, I put it to you that that's not what you said. That in

15 2000, when you spoke to investigators about this, you said that it was a

16 civilian who kicked you and a civilian who made him stop. Do you accept

17 that that's what you might have said?

18 A. A doctor made him do that. He wore a white coat. I stated that a

19 doctor in a white coat took him out of that room.

20 Q. Right. So that's firstly a correction of what you said yesterday:

21 It wasn't a soldier who made him stop. It was a doctor.

22 A. A doctor, a man in a white coat.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Doria.

24 MR. DORIA: First of all, I don't recall the witness saying

25 yesterday that a soldier stopped the other one from --

1 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't recall either.

2 MR. JONES: We should check the transcript. It's precisely what

3 she said.

4 MR. DORIA: I cannot find it. She said someone kicked but she

5 didn't say about anyone stopping.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: We can check. We can check.

7 MR. JONES: Is it necessary to check it now?

8 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't know. But once an objection has been

9 raised ... I don't recollect the witness saying that a soldier then

10 stopped her -- stopped the other soldier.

11 MR. JONES: If Your Honours will give me a moment, please.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes. I do recollect her saying that a soldier

13 kicked her, that for sure. But I don't recollect the other statement.

14 And I'm stopping here because, you know, you are using it as a platform to

15 attack the consistency in her testimony, so.

16 MR. JONES: Seeking to clarify it in any event.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, exactly. Otherwise I would have bypassed it,

18 because to me it is not that important.

19 MR. JONES: Right.

20 MR. JONES: Your Honour, what I have is, it's page 31, line 4 and

21 that "when he kicked you, this other soldier swore." There was a

22 reference to two soldiers. That's in the question.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: There was one soldier, Mr. Jones. Always one

24 soldier.

25 The question was, I intervened at one point in time because when

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1 she was asked to explain how he swore, in fact the transcript that

2 Mr. Doria was using, "swore to her," and I corrected it, "swore at her,"

3 and she gave an explanation that not referred to swearing at all and then

4 I tried to point that out. But anyway, let's move. I don't think at this

5 point in time it is much, that much relevant.

6 MR. JONES: What is more important is who did the kicking and I

7 will move on to that.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Yes. Yes, Mr. Doria.

9 MR. DORIA: As Your Honours correctly pointed out, that it has to

10 do with the credibility of the witness and if she didn't say that --

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. But -- point taken. It was put to the witness

12 that she had stated that and we are coming to the conclusion that we can't

13 find it anyway. Let's take a neutral stand about it, but the matter ends

14 there. It's --

15 MR. DORIA: Thank you, Your Honours.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: It has never occurred now.

17 So, yes, Mr. Jones, please proceed.

18 MR. JONES:

19 Q. Yes. I would like to refer you to your statement in 2000 and you

20 don't have it in front of you, but for our benefit it is pages 2 to 3 and

21 the ERN is 00998369 to 00998370: "At the hospital I was kept on a

22 stretcher at the waiting room and a dead body of a Muslim soldier was also

23 kept on a stretcher next to me. A civilian came to me and told that I had

24 carried a rifle and had killed that soldier lying next to me. He kicked

25 me having said that."

1 Then you went on to say, "another civilian who had a black beard

2 came and took the one who had kicked me out of the waiting room".

3 Now you accepted yesterday that your statement in 2000 was a

4 truthful statement. Do you also accept that in May 2000, nearly five

5 years ago, you had a better recollection of events than you do now?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And do you accept, hearing what you said five years ago, that in

8 fact it was a civilian who kicked you in the hospital and not a soldier?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Very well. Now from the hospital you were taken to the SUP, you

11 told us, to join your mother and then you were taken together to the

12 Detention Centre behind the courthouse. The whole time you were being

13 carried on a stretcher, correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And no one mistreated you either at the police station or on the

16 way to the Detention Centre?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Now the people who took you from the hospital to the SUP, they

19 weren't wearing red bands around their head, were they?

20 A. I don't remember.

21 Q. Well, you said yesterday that the same people took you from Kusici

22 to the hospital and then to the Detention Centre. You don't in fact have

23 a clear recollection of that, do you?

24 A. I remember these people.

25 Q. All right. How many of them were there, firstly?

1 A. A few.

2 Q. Well, could you tell us the precise number, if you have a clear

3 recollection?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Can you tell us anything about them at all, about their names,

6 physical description?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Are you saying that all of these people accompanied you all the

9 way from Kusici, stayed over night, and then took you to the hospital and

10 then to the Detention Centre? Or only some of them?

11 A. Not all of them. Just a few of them.

12 Q. You can't tell us how many people there were?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Right. I put it to you, and I think the suggestion is probably

15 clear, but in fact you have no clear recollection of any specific

16 individuals accompanying you all the way?

17 A. I know that there were a few of them.

18 Q. We move now to the Detention Centre where you were held for about

19 20 days. Now, firstly, you're aware, weren't you, that there was no

20 electricity in Srebrenica at the time?

21 A. There was no electricity at the place where we stayed.

22 Q. Right. So it was pitch black at night then.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And you didn't have candles or anything like that which you burnt

25 at night to provide light?

1 A. No.

2 Q. And this was mid-winter, correct, so it was actually dark for a

3 large portion of the night? Very dark for a large portion of the night.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Now, would it be fair to summarise your treatment at the Detention

6 Centre in this way: That the conditions there were certainly basic, but

7 that you were never beaten or otherwise physically mistreated?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. So in other words, nobody ever touched a hair on your head the

10 whole time that you were at the Detention Centre?

11 A. No.

12 Q. And the same applies, doesn't, it, to all of the other women with

13 whom you were imprisoned?

14 MR. DORIA: Your Honour.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, what's the problem?

16 MR. DORIA: Just in connection with what my learned friend was

17 saying about she never being mistreated. If you recall, Your Honour, the

18 witness testified yesterday that someone came in and pointed a pistol into

19 her head and she was very frightened because of that.

20 MR. JONES: This is pure argument, it is for the witness to reply

21 if she considers that --

22 JUDGE AGIUS: No. But it's a valid, a very valid point that is

23 being raised by Mr. Doria. That calls for some clarification from the

24 witness. I mean, because -- the way she is describing the events now,

25 it's as if, I mean, would exclude anything like she described yesterday

1 having ever -- having ever happened. Anyway, do proceed with your

2 question. Do proceed with your question.

3 MR. JONES: Yes.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: And with your next question and then we will come to

5 the point raised by Mr. Doria, we will just ask for a confirmation or a

6 denial from the witness as regards to that particular event.

7 MR. JONES: Yes. My question and the subsequent one are dealing

8 with physical mistreatment in the sense that actual physical contact --

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes, I understand. This is why I'm telling you

10 to proceed with your question.

11 MR. JONES: Yes.

12 Q. The same applies, doesn't it, to the other women with whom you

13 were imprisoned - leaving any threats which might have been made aside -

14 you never saw any of them being physically mistreated, manhandled or

15 beaten during the whole 20 days that you were there; correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And it's correct, isn't it, that since you were in the stretcher,

18 you were actually in that cell for 24 hours a day for the whole of those

19 20 days?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And you didn't see either, did you, any sign on the women that

22 they had been mistreated when they left the cell and then came back for

23 questioning? Or rather when they left for questioning and came back?

24 A. No. Actually the answer is "yes," I didn't see any.

25 Q. You were asked yesterday about women being taken for

1 interrogation, which I think you will -- we can all agree sounds rather

2 sinister. In fact, they were taken, asked some questions, and brought

3 back to the cell, as far as you could tell. Would that be correct?

4 A. Yes. They were taken out and brought back to the cell.

5 Q. Right. And when they came back they showed no signs of having

6 been mistreated?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Now, you told how you were given food every day, and obviously it

9 was not a great quantity. But were you aware at the time that people in

10 Srebrenica in fact didn't receive any more food than you, in fact many had

11 a lot less? Is that something you were told or became aware of?

12 A. [No audible response]

13 Q. Sorry, I think there might have been a mistake in the

14 interpretation. I was referring to the people in Srebrenica. Not Zenica,

15 receiving less food than you, whether you were aware of the refugees in

16 Srebrenica suffering from severe food shortages?

17 A. I didn't know.

18 Q. So no one ever said to you, in relation to the food you were

19 receiving, "We don't get much better?" i.e., a Muslim saying they in fact

20 don't receive much more food than you were getting?

21 A. Naser Oric came. He introduced himself and he told us that they

22 themselves were not getting any more than us.

23 Q. So in fact you did hear that the people in Srebrenica were not

24 receiving any more food than you?

25 MR. DORIA: Your Honour, if I may raise an objection.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

2 MR. DORIA: The witness was testifying about Naser Oric, who was

3 the commander. It seems as if he identified himself. I wonder if this

4 implies that he is saying about if the witness is talking about the people

5 in general or only the soldiers, the Muslim soldiers? I think it needs a

6 clarification.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: But if the witness is stating, Mr. Doria, that the

8 person who introduced himself as Naser Oric told her that they were not

9 receiving any more food than her, "they" means, basically, at least us

10 that how I interpret it, the people in -- the Muslims in Srebrenica. So

11 at the end of the day, what's the basis of your objection?

12 MR. DORIA: Well I thought the witness was --

13 JUDGE AGIUS: There is one person who told you "we are in the same

14 position." So at the end of the day she did hear that the Muslims were in

15 the same position, or in the same predicament as she was.

16 MR. DORIA: My interpretation, Your Honour, is that the witness was

17 referring to the soldiers. I mean the ones who were holding them in

18 captivity. Not generally people.

19 MR. JONES: I don't think the Prosecution's interpretation of the

20 evidence is a good ground for an objection. If the point that my learned

21 friend wants to take in re-examination --

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Keep moving, Mr. Jones. I don't see any validity in

23 your objection. It's a question as it has been rightly pointed out, it's

24 a question of interpretation and that's it. Mr. Jones, please proceed.

25 MR. JONES: In fact, due to the objection, I note that the

1 witness's answer, which was "yes" as I heard it to the question so in fact

2 you did hear that the people in Srebrenica were not receiving any more

3 food than you, didn't appear on the record. So I think I need to --

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Put the question again.

5 MR. JONES:

6 Q. So, Ms. Stamenic, in contrast to what you told us earlier, you did

7 in fact hear that the people in Srebrenica or at least some of them were

8 no better position than you?

9 A. [No interpretation]

10 MR. JONES: The witness replied yes again and I'm afraid it is not

11 appearing. May I first have the answer of the witness on the record. It

12 is rather frustrating she has twice said "yes," and ...

13 JUDGE AGIUS: We need the answer on the transcript. I clearly

14 heard her say "yes" in reply to Mr. Jones question. Does that suffice,

15 Mr. Jones? I think it does suffice.

16 MR. JONES: Let's ask the witness. Ms. Stamenic, can you just

17 repeat the word you said again, nice and clearly.

18 A. [No interpretation]

19 MR. JONES: I simply don't understand why the interpretation

20 is ...

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Judge Eser.

22 JUDGE ESER: Just to clarify, the question was --

23 MR. JONES: I just wonder if we should solve the technical problem

24 first because it might become very confusing. The witness has said three

25 times and it hasn't once --

1 JUDGE ESER: That's not my question.

2 MR. JONES: I wonder if we should solve that first.

3 JUDGE ESER: That's clear. My question was, is that you asked the

4 witness who told us earlier you did in fact hear that the people in

5 Srebrenica or at least some of them were not in any better position than

6 you. And the witness answered "yes."

7 Now my question is, from whom did you hear this? Who told you

8 that the people in Srebrenica are not in a better position than you are?

9 Who told you this?

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Stamenic, could you answer the question,

11 please. Who -- Judge Eser's question is a very simple one. Who told you

12 that the people in Srebrenica, or at least some of them, were not in any

13 better position than you were?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Naser Oric.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. The other thing is, you very rightly pointed

16 out, Mr. Jones, that on the two or three occasions the witness did say --

17 answer "yes" and on each of these three occasions we did not find the

18 word, the translation. We didn't see "yes" scrolling in the text in the

19 transcript.

20 MR. JONES: Yes. I'm prepared to move on.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I think we ought to. The other thing I wanted

22 to correct is that, in your last question to the witness, you sort of --

23 let me find it. Yes. Your last question to the witness started

24 with "Ms. Stamenic in contrast to what you told us earlier, you did in

25 fact hear that the people in Srebrenica, or at least some of them, were in

1 no better position than you".

2 I don't like particularly the way you put it, as if there is a

3 contrast to -- with what she had stated earlier.

4 MR. JONES: But the witness --

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Earlier the question was whether she was aware that

6 the people in Srebrenica, the refugees in Srebrenica were suffering from

7 severe food shortages and her answer was "I didn't know."

8 So not knowing is one thing. Having heard about food shortages is

9 another. So, but let's move on. I just wanted to put it on the record.

10 MR. JONES: Yes.

11 Q. And as far as this being told to you by Naser Oric is

12 concerned -- firstly, you didn't know anyone called Naser Oric before the

13 war, did you?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. All right. You told us yesterday, when this person came and

16 announced themselves as -- or introduced themselves as being Naser Oric,

17 that was effectively your basis for saying that it was Naser Oric;

18 correct? You based yourself on what he announced rather than any

19 recognition?

20 A. On the basis of the fact that he introduced himself.

21 Q. Right. You didn't recognise him as Naser Oric?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Just on that theme still, when this person who introduced himself,

24 as Naser Oric came into your cell, did you have a clear view of him?

25 A. Well, I could see him.

1 Q. You could see him from your stretcher as he came through the door?

2 A. I saw him when he came in.

3 Q. So it was light in your cell at that time?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. So it was during the day, wasn't it, that this person came in?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Thank you. Now, going back to the conditions in your cell, you

8 mentioned how the other women would be taken to the toilet sometimes. But

9 they could also relieve themselves in this bucket in their cell, couldn't

10 they, if they needed to?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Do you remember the cooks who came and gave you food? Do you

13 remember the names of any of those cooks?

14 MR. DORIA: Your Honour --

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Doria.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

17 MR. DORIA: I have an objection to the -- my learned friend the way

18 in which he puts the question, if you remember the cooks who came in and

19 gave you food," she didn't say about cooks coming and giving food. She

20 said that they received it and I don't know if --

21 JUDGE AGIUS: In any way, she has stated -- she has answered the

22 question saying "no," so no harm done. Let's proceed, Mr. Doria. But you

23 are right she never qualified those persons as cooks. That's Mr. Jones

24 who is doing that.

25 MR. JONES: Well, we can perhaps get there by another route.

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1 JUDGE AGIUS: Assuming that whoever cooks food prefers, so --

2 would like to see others tasting it.

3 MR. JONES:

4 Q. Do you remember who brought you the food?

5 A. No.

6 Q. If I were to -- I will suggest some names to you and tell me if

7 they ring a bell. Do you remember the name Bahra [phoen]? Bahra.

8 A. No.

9 Q. Mirfeta [phoen]?

10 A. No.

11 Q. There were Muslim women there, were there not, who brought you

12 food every day?

13 A. I can't remember very well.

14 Q. Do you, in fact, have a clear recollection of these events 12

15 years ago?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. You don't remember the names of any of the Muslim women who

18 brought you food every day?

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I won't even wait for an objection, because

20 she has not conceded at any time, Mr. Jones, that Muslim women brought in

21 food with any frequency. I mean, not just every day. This has never been

22 conceded by the witness. It's being put to her by you continuously, and

23 continuously she has been telling you "I don't remember, I don't

24 recollect."

25 MR. JONES: Right. Let me put it this way.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: I would suggest you move to something else.

2 MR. JONES:

3 Q. Perhaps one final question. Do you have any recollection of who

4 the people were who brought you food?

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Doria.

6 MR. JONES: It's a perfectly reasonable question.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. But I -- I haven't got a clue as to what the

8 objection is likely to be. Yes, Mr. Doria.

9 MR. DORIA: I was thinking the witness already clearly answered to

10 this question saying that, no, she doesn't have a clear recollection of

11 who brought -- specifically who brought her the food, so I don't know if

12 there is any ...

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, let's take --

14 MR. DORIA: I don't know if there is any reason coming back again

15 with the same question.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay. Let's take it -- you are partly

17 right. But Madam Stamenic, was the food brought to you and to the other

18 women in the cell where you were staying in Srebrenica?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Was it always the same person or persons that

21 brought in the food, or would these persons change from time to time?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't remember.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I think I would leave it at that, there, Mr.

24 Jones and move to the next question.

25 MR. JONES: Yes. Yes, that's what I sought to establish. Thank

1 you.

2 Q. Now as far as the water is concerned, again the water which you

3 received might not have been of the best quality, but you did receive

4 water on a daily basis, didn't you?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And you told us yesterday how you weren't able to wash. But,

7 again, were you told, or did you become aware that there was such a

8 shortage of water in Srebrenica that nobody could wash properly?

9 A. I wasn't told. I mean, I didn't know.

10 Q. Now, you told us how you were given a log fire and logs -- a stove

11 rather, and logs to keep you warm in the cold winter temperature. Just a

12 question about these logs. Were these heavy logs?

13 A. I can't remember how big they were.

14 Q. Well, you've told us how men came to your cell carrying logs. Is

15 it right they would be carrying many logs at a time? In other words, they

16 would have their arms full with logs?

17 A. I can't remember how many they had.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: What's the relevance of the question? I do relate

19 it to the persons who she testified yesterday were bending down as they

20 carried the logs, but.

21 MR. JONES: Exactly. That's precisely it. The next question will

22 make that clear, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Go ahead --

24 MR. JONES:

25 Q. Ms. Stamenic, you told us how these men who came into the cell

1 were bent over. Was that with the effort of carrying these logs?

2 A. I don't know if it was because the logs were too heavy, but they

3 were bent over, a little bit.

4 Q. Fine. Thank you. Now finally on the conditions, you've told us

5 how you had blankets to sleep on. It was put to you that you didn't have

6 mattresses or pillows. Wasn't it in fact a case of the blankets serving

7 as bedding?

8 A. We did not use any pillows.

9 Q. Right. You had a blanket each, didn't you?

10 A. I'm not sure if all of us had one.

11 Q. Right. But most of you?

12 A. Yes, most of us.

13 Q. Right. Now, dealing specifically with your treatment in light of

14 your wound, isn't it right that the guards actually came into your cell

15 and actually tried to help to get you walking in order that you wouldn't

16 be immobilised?

17 A. Nobody helped me walk.

18 Q. Was Milenija Mitrovic with you in the cell when you were detained

19 in Srebrenica?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. You told us that your wounds were only dressed once when you were

22 in the Detention Centre. Isn't it right, in fact, that that in fact

23 occurred more than once, that a nurse came but that also some young girls

24 and boys came to dress your wounds and left bandages with your mother?

25 JUDGE AGIUS: I think we need -- one moment, I think we need to

1 split it in two, because there are two questions in one here, Mr. Jones.

2 Let's put the first question first: Whether -- it's being put to

3 you, Madam Stamenic, that what you told us yesterday is not 100 per cent

4 correct, in that it is being suggested that nurses or a nurse or someone

5 for that matter came to nurse your wounds more than once while you were in

6 the Detention Centre. Would you agree with that?

7 MR. JONES: It wasn't that the nurse came more than once but

8 that --

9 JUDGE AGIUS: I said a nurse or someone else for that matter.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A nurse used to come.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. How many times did this nurse come to dress

12 your wounds while were you in the Detention Centre? Can you repeat your

13 answer, please?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Once.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Once. And did anyone else, apart from that nurse,

16 come while you were at the Detention Centre during those 20 days or so to

17 dress your wounds?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't remember that.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: The next question, you can put the question

20 yourself, Mr. Jones, or else I can put it for you.

21 MR. JONES: Yes. I will put it.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes, go ahead.

23 MR. JONES:

24 Q. Weren't bandages also left with your mother so that she could

25 dress your wounds?

1 A. I don't know. I can't remember that.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's move, Mr. Jones.

3 MR. JONES:

4 Q. Finally, didn't you also receive painkillers?

5 A. I can't remember.

6 Q. All right. Isn't it also true that you received more food because

7 you were injured? In other words, that you actually -- a special portion

8 was made available to you because of your injury?

9 A. I got the same thing as the others.

10 Q. Now, you mentioned how a person who introduced himself as Zulfo

11 came to your cell. And he asked all of you whether anyone mistreated you,

12 and he received the reply that no one had been. That's correct, firstly,

13 isn't it?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And in fact that was the truth, wasn't it, that no one had

16 mistreated you? Sorry, I will withdraw that question. That has already

17 been answered.

18 A. No physical mistreatment.

19 Q. But you didn't tell him of any other type of mistreatment, did

20 you?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Nor did any of the other women tell him of any other type of

23 mistreatment?

24 A. No.

25 Q. And it's true of him too, isn't it, that you had a clear view of

1 him because you described him to us, and that therefore he too came during

2 the day?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Now, do you remember a girl called Svetlana Trifunovic?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. She was the daughter of Zivana and who was from Cosici; correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And she was, or she at least appeared to be around ten to eleven

9 years old; would that be correct?

10 A. Thereabouts, roughly.

11 Q. Now it's right, isn't it, that she wasn't in fact kept in the

12 Detention Centre at night, but was actually kept in the house of a Muslim

13 family?

14 A. Yeah, they used to take them somewhere.

15 Q. When you say "they" are you also referring to Branko, the boy?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. So Branko and Svetlana did not stay at the Detention Centre at

18 night. They were taken elsewhere?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Would you agree that Svetlana did not spend a single night at the

21 Detention Centre?

22 A. I can't really remember that.

23 Q. Right. But certainly you told us she was -- that she and Branko

24 were taken away in the evening. So I put it to you that maybe the maximum

25 she could have stayed there, a night or two at the beginning, but for the

1 rest of the time she was taken elsewhere. Would you agree with that?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Now, Svetlana came to the cell with her mother, Zivana after you,

4 didn't she?

5 A. I can't really remember how it went.

6 Q. You don't recall that you were in the cell and that then she came

7 in after you had already arrived?

8 A. I can't remember.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: If she can't remember, let's move, Mr. Jones.

10 MR. JONES: Yes. If I might refresh her memory.

11 Q. If it would assist, I will refresh your memory from your statement

12 which was read to you yesterday. And it says for the record, it is

13 00998370. Second paragraph. "Later in the evening, Stanija Mitrovic and

14 Milenija Mitrovic, both from my village Kusici, and a woman by the name of

15 Zivana from the village Cosici, Skelani and her ten to eleven years old

16 daughter were also brought to the Detention Centre and kept in the same

17 cell we were."

18 Now hearing that does that refresh your memory as to when, whether

19 she arrived after you were already in the cell?

20 A. No [as interpreted].

21 JUDGE AGIUS: She said "da," but again, I don't see the reflection

22 of her answer in the transcript.

23 MR. JONES: It has come out as "no," in fact.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: She said "da." I heard her very clearly say "da,"

25 which means "yes," and on the transcript now I see "no."

1 MR. JONES: I can put the question again.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Or we can ask her whether she replied yes or no to

3 your previous question, or to your last question.

4 MR. JONES:

5 Q. Do you recall now that in fact Svetlana arrived after you were

6 already in the cell?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Thank you. And she and her mother were exchanged at the end of

9 January, weren't they, January 1993?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. So in fact Svetlana was only in Srebrenica for ten days or so?

12 Maximum two weeks?

13 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness repeat because we can't hear

14 in the booth.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Madam Stamenic, could you please repeat your

16 answer.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Maybe a fortnight or ten days,

18 roughly speaking.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Right.

20 MR. JONES:

21 Q. Thank you. Did she appear to you to be fine when you saw her, not

22 unduly disturbed or anything?

23 A. She was frightened.

24 Q. Now, you were the only woman in the Detention Centre, in your

25 cell, who had actually been wounded in the thigh, weren't you?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. There was no one else who had any gun shot wound or any fracture

3 or any serious injury?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Do you recall that when you were exchanged, a Serb called

6 Branislav Gligic received you on the Serb side?

7 A. [No audible response]

8 Q. The name is Branislav Gligic?

9 A. I can't remember.

10 Q. Well do you remember someone by the nickname Pira? Pira?

11 MR. JONES: It has not been interpreted.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: It has been interpreted as "Pira."

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't remember.

14 MR. JONES:

15 Q. Well do you at least remember that when you were exchanged, the

16 Serb, upon receiving -- upon receiving you dressed your wounds with

17 alcohol? Do you remember that?

18 A. I don't remember that.

19 MR. JONES: I would like to go into private session just for two

20 questions.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Let's go into private session for a couple of

22 questions, and we will return to public -- to open session soon after.

23 [Private session]

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 [Open session]

19 MR. JONES: Your Honour, these questions go to the credit of

20 another witness.

21 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session now.

23 MR. JONES:

24 Q. Now just going back to Zulfo for a moment. You also didn't know

25 that person before the war, did you?

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1 A. No.

2 Q. And so you didn't recognise him as someone you knew?

3 A. No.

4 Q. And it's right, isn't it, that you've never been asked to identify

5 this person from either an identity parade or from a set of photographs?

6 A. Yes.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, what? You've never been asked, in other words?

8 Do you confirm that you were never asked to identify this person in one

9 way or another?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was not asked.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

12 MR. JONES:

13 Q. And the same is true of the person whom you described as

14 introducing himself as Naser Oric, you've never been asked to identify

15 that person by photographs or in an identity parade?

16 A. I was not asked.

17 Q. Right. Now, when this person who introduced himself as Naser Oric

18 came to the cell, you told us that he asked whether you received food and

19 then said that, in effect, they themselves didn't get any better, the

20 food.

21 Would it be right to say this person appeared to be concerned

22 about the welfare of all of you?

23 A. Well, as soon as he asked us, I gathered that he was concerned.

24 Q. And when he said "We don't get any better," did you understand

25 that as an expression of regret, that it wasn't possible to give more

1 food? Or that there wasn't more food around for everyone?

2 A. He only said "we are not getting any better ourselves." He did

3 not specify who he meant.

4 Q. Now, he asked, didn't he, about the food you were receiving and he

5 asked why you were in a stretcher?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. So it's right that he didn't seem to know how you came to be

8 injured, firstly?

9 A. Yes. He didn't know.

10 Q. And he didn't seem to know --

11 MR. DORIA: Your Honour ...

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, one moment, Mr. Jones. Yes, Mr. Doria.

13 MR. DORIA: Your Honour, I have an objection in relation to the

14 question that my learned colleague put concerning whether the witness knew

15 if the person who introduced himself as Naser Oric had any knowledge about

16 her injury before.

17 MR. JONES: I said "he didn't seem to know." It's clear if one

18 reads the transcript, it really is.

19 MR. DORIA: I would say it is speculation, because ...

20 JUDGE AGIUS: No. It's a question directed as to whether she

21 could make an assessment there and then as to his prior knowledge of the

22 cause of her injury, so what's the problem?

23 MR. DORIA: Well, what I mean, Your Honour, is that the fact that

24 someone is asking if you are injured, it doesn't mean that you don't know

25 if --

1 JUDGE AGIUS: It means that from the question you should be able

2 to assess whether that person knows already what caused the injury or

3 whether he is just playing around. This is what is basically what the

4 question was all about.

5 MR. DORIA: Thank you, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Jones.

7 MR. JONES: Yes.

8 Q. Would you agree that, equally, he didn't seem to know how much you

9 and the other women were being fed?

10 A. Please repeat the question.

11 Q. Would you agree --

12 JUDGE AGIUS: If you rephrase it, it will be better, Mr. Jones,

13 because as it is, it may be a little bit confusing.

14 MR. JONES: Yes.

15 Q. When this person asked how much food you were receiving or whether

16 you were receiving food, did you understand from that that he didn't know

17 whether you were receiving food or not, or how much?

18 A. He asked us whether we received any food.

19 Q. So to summarise, would you agree that he didn't appear to know

20 very much, if indeed anything, about the regime in the detention cell?

21 A. I wouldn't know whether he knew, or whether he didn't know.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's put a direct question.

23 Would you agree, Madam Stamenic, that basically this person, who

24 came into your cell and introduced himself as Naser Oric, was actually

25 coming there to check things out, to see what the conditions were, what

1 food was being given to you, and that sort of thing? Was he checking

2 things out? Is that the impression that you formed in your mind?

3 MR. JONES: That wasn't really the gist of my question.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: I know. But I think at the end of the day that is

5 what is important, Mr. Jones.

6 MR. JONES: It is whether he appeared to be ignorant of the

7 workings of the cell. That is the question I would like her to answer.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: We will come to that later. Let's see this first.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know whether he knew, or

10 not.

11 MR. JONES: That's fine. I will move on.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: I think we can move. It's basically we can't

13 proceed, we can't get more of the witness on this point, I think,

14 Mr. Jones.

15 MR. JONES:

16 Q. It's simply this, he didn't appear very well informed, did he, of

17 what was going on?

18 MR. DORIA: Your Honour, I think this is what the witness has just

19 answered.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I think I have to sustain your objection, and

21 let's move to the next question, Mr. Jones.

22 MR. JONES: Right.

23 Q. Well a few more -- a few final questions, although I'm not quite

24 sure if we will be able to conclude by the break?

25 JUDGE AGIUS: It's not a problem. The next witness, who will be

1 with us for a few days, at least, to say the least, can start at any time

2 after the break. Will he be testifying with the protective measures?

3 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, that's something we're going to clarify

4 during the break. There might be a change.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, all right. Thank you. So you think there

6 will be a change? Or there might be a change?

7 MS. SELLERS: It appears that there will be a change.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm saying, because there is in the gallery a

9 considerable number of students from Ireland, and I know that they are

10 quite interested in these proceedings. So it will be of great interest

11 for them to follow the next witness, who is one of the key witnesses in

12 this trial. Yes, Mr. Jones. Take your time. I mean, I'm not telling you

13 please wind-up in three minutes or four minutes.

14 MR. JONES: No. I will probably go ten or fifteen minutes into

15 the next session.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: It's not a problem at all, Mr. Jones.

17 MR. JONES:

18 Q. I'm going to turn to a different area altogether now, which is the

19 sounds which you say you heard of men being beaten. Now, firstly, that

20 wasn't something you heard every night, was it?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. You say that you heard those sounds every night? And I think you

23 said -- I will need to check the transcript from yesterday.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: She said "twice a night," Mr. Jones. "Twice a

25 night," yesterday, that's what she said.

1 MR. JONES:

2 Q. So is that your evidence, that every night there was a regular

3 periodic sound of beatings which occurred twice on each occasion?

4 A. I don't remember whether this happened every night.

5 Q. Well that was precisely my point, Ms. Stamenic, and we need to be

6 very -- very clear about this. You do not recall, do you, that there was

7 a sound of beatings every single night that you were in the cell?

8 A. I could hear sounds, but I don't remember whether I heard them

9 every night.

10 Q. Including sounds of people moaning? In other words, did these

11 sounds which you heard include sounds of people moaning and generally

12 making sounds of misery, which are consistent with not being beaten at

13 that moment?

14 A. I heard moaning and wailing.

15 Q. I put it to you that in terms of the sound of people actually

16 being struck, that that in fact only occurred on one night and that that

17 wasn't repeated. Do you accept that?

18 A. I heard moaning and wailing. I don't know whether this happened

19 every night, whether they were beaten every night. I only know that I

20 heard them moan and wail.

21 Q. Yes. You accept that people can moan and wail when they're not

22 being beaten?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Finally, and I don't wish to dwell on this subject at any length,

25 but you referred to hearing the sound of bats, I think you said, being

1 used on people. Now, firstly, you were on your stretcher the whole time,

2 weren't you?

3 A. I heard sticks, or bats. That's what I heard.

4 Q. All right. Now, you didn't have your ear against the wall, did

5 you?

6 A. No.

7 Q. I put it to you that the very most that you could have heard would

8 have been of muffled sounds of some form of impact, but you couldn't

9 possibly hear something which you could distinguish as the sound of a

10 stick being used. Do you accept that?

11 A. It sounded to me like the sound of a stick or a bat. I don't know

12 whether it was a stick or something else. I didn't see anything.

13 Q. Right.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Jones, and Mr. Doria, I am suggesting to you and

15 to the interpreters and the technicians and the rest to go on and finish

16 with the testimony of this witness and then have the break after provided

17 we do not exceed 15 minutes or so, if that is agreeable. If you prefer to

18 have the break now, we will then have the break now and resume immediately

19 after. What is your preference.

20 MR. JONES: I can be finished in five minutes, so my preference

21 would be to continue.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Doria, is there re-examination in the offing.

23 MR. DORIA: Yes, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: So what I suggest, then, is, if it's convenient for

25 you, that we break now an we will resume in 25 minutes' time.

1 MR. JONES: Yes. Well I had one question on this subject.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Oh, yes, finish that one question and we will

3 reconvene in 25 minutes' time. Thank you.

4 [Trial Chamber confers]

5 MR. JONES:

6 Q. All right. Ms. Stamenic you told us just now that you said you

7 heard what sounded to you like the sound of a stick, or a bat; that you

8 didn't know whether it was a stick or something else. You didn't see

9 anything. Do you accept that you could have been mistaken about the

10 sounds which you heard, when you say that they were those of a bat? In

11 other words, do you accept that --

12 A. I don't know whether I'm mistaken. I wouldn't say. I heard those

13 sounds.

14 Q. Fine. Thank you. We can take the break there?

15 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I thank you, Mr. Jones. Mrs. Stamenic,

16 we are going to have a 25- to 30-minute break now. I am sure that our

17 staff over there where you are at the moment will give you all the

18 assistance that you require so that you can have a decent break. After

19 the break, you will be testifying for approximately 15 to 20 minutes and

20 then you are free to go. Thank you.

21 --- Recess taken at 10.34 a.m.

22 --- On resuming at 11.06 a.m.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Let's re-establish contact via videolink with

24 the witness and try to finish so that we can start with the next witness

25 immediately after.

1 Yes, it seems that we have established contact. I just want to

2 know, from you, Madam Stamenic, whether you can see us as clear as we can

3 see you and whether you are receiving interpretation of what I am saying

4 in your own language.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, madam. Let's proceed, Mr. Jones.

7 MR. JONES: Right, thank you, Your Honour.

8 Q. Yes, just a few final questions from me anyway, Ms. Stamenic. And

9 firstly, to clarify something which might also be a problem of

10 interpretation. When you were asked yesterday, when you heard sounds of

11 screaming, you said and I believe the expression in B/C/S was "dva put

12 nocu." Now did you mean to say you heard that twice a night? Or whether

13 you heard that twice during your stay in detention and that it happened at

14 night?

15 A. Twice during the time of my detention.

16 Q. Thank you very much.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

18 MR. JONES:

19 Q. Now, turning finally to your exchange on the 6th of February,

20 1993, you and the other Serbs were exchanged for dead Muslims, weren't

21 you?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. In fact, I think you even knew the number, that it was ten, ten

24 dead Muslims?

25 A. I don't know how many there were.

1 Q. And how many of you - live people - were exchanged for them?

2 Approximately?

3 A. Some 20 or so. 15 or 20, approximately.

4 Q. And there wasn't a single live Muslim who was returned to the

5 Muslim side; would that be correct?

6 A. I didn't see any.

7 Q. On another subject now. You don't recall, do you, giving any

8 statement in 1994 about these events, do you?

9 A. In 1994?

10 Q. Yes.

11 A. I gave a statement in Belgrade.

12 Q. Right. Thank you. Now, you know Ilija Ivanovic, don't you? You

13 knew him before the war, firstly?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And you still know him. You still see him?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Thank you.

18 MR. JONES: No further questions.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Jones. Mr. Doria, re-examination,

20 if at all.

21 Re-examined by Mr. Doria.

22 MR. DORIA: Thank you. A couple of questions. Thank you,

23 Your Honour.

24 Q. Madam Stamenic, you testified yesterday that when you were

25 captured and you were brought to your house, you saw soldiers and

1 civilians. Is that correct?

2 A. Repeat the question, please.

3 Q. You testified yesterday that when you were captured, you were

4 taken to your house and then you saw the -- all the soldiers and

5 civilians. Is that correct?

6 A. When we were exchanged or ...

7 Q. No. At the time when you were captured, I mean on the 16th

8 January, 1993.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. You testified that you saw civilians going into your house and

11 taking items from there. Is that correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Did you see the soldiers, those that you saw, people in military

14 uniform, stopping those civilians from doing that?

15 MR. JONES: I don't know how that arises from cross-examination.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Correct. Objection sustained, Mr. Doria.

17 MR. DORIA: Let me rephrase it.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: You could have asked that question during your

19 examination-in-chief, because you did actually ask the witness who was

20 taking things out, whether it included also the soldiers, and she

21 answered "no," and you could have easily put that question, that

22 additional question to the witness then. But certainly it doesn't arise

23 now out of the cross-examination.

24 MR. DORIA: Thank you. Thank you, Your Honour.

25 Q. Madam Stamenic, you testified yesterday as having seen a woman

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1 under the name of Djemila, is that correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And was that woman at 6.00 also in front of your house?

4 A. She was in front of the house.

5 Q. And is that also true, that a postman was also in front of your

6 house?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Madam Stamenic, you were put a question yesterday, or an

9 allegation was made by my learned colleague to the effect that the group

10 that you saw was indeed a group of fighters, and which were together

11 civilians and soldiers. What impression you got from that group?

12 MR. JONES: Yes, that is not how I put it at all. It was that

13 they were all mixed you up together in the same place at the same time.

14 Not that they constituted a discrete group.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Thank you. And in addition, Mr. Jones and

16 Mr. Doria, at least the way I understood it yesterday when you were

17 putting this to the witness, Mr. Jones, is the description of fighters

18 arose, after that the witness agreed that she didn't know at all whether

19 this was a proper army, whether there was an organised group of soldiers

20 under a proper command. And then it was put to her that these were better

21 described then as fighters.

22 MR. DORIA: Yes.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Then amongst the other questions that were put and

24 were answered is whether civilians also were carrying arms. But at no

25 time it was put to the witness, by Mr. Jones, that the description of

1 fighters included both civilians and soldiers. I took it as meaning only

2 soldiers or those wearing uniforms and carrying weapons.

3 MR. JONES: Yes, that was right, at least in the context of the

4 Muslim army being better described as soldiers.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Arising out of that, of course, you can put any

6 question you like provided it is within the parameters of the

7 cross-examination.

8 MR. DORIA: Thank you. Thank you, Your Honour.

9 Q. Madam Stamenic, the group that you saw mixed, soldiers and

10 civilians, can you recall which group was the biggest one? Did see more

11 soldiers or more civilians?

12 A. I don't remember.

13 Q. Thank you. Madam Stamenic, you testified yesterday that certain

14 items, and specifically you told us about the blankets that were put into

15 the cart, is that correct?

16 MR. JONES: Again, I didn't raise any --

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, there were things.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, go ahead, finish your answer, please.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were things, but I don't know

20 whether those blankets had been taken out of my house and put on the

21 cart. But in any case, there were things when I was put on the cart.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Jones.

23 MR. JONES: Yes. I didn't go into the question at all of removal

24 of items from her house in cross-examination, so, again, same objection,

25 that this did not arise. And it is indicative my learned friend keeps

1 referring to matters which she said in examination-in-chief rather than

2 cross-examination. It illustrates the point.

3 MR. DORIA: Your Honour, Your Honour --

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Doria.

5 MR. DORIA: I remember my learned colleague talking about the

6 period of time that -- in January 1993 as being very cold and a suggestion

7 that the blankets were taken by civilians to protect themselves. So that

8 is why I am putting the questions.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: You're right. But the question is which blankets

10 actually were put in the cart on which the witness was being transported,

11 because of her injury. So let's proceed and --

12 MR. DORIA: I thank you, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: -- at least try to stick to what is relevant to the

14 case anyways.

15 MR. DORIA: Yes.

16 Q. Madam Stamenic, you also testified having seen those items being

17 taken directly to Srebrenica. Is that correct?

18 MR. JONES: Sorry, which items. It has to be the blankets which

19 are on the cart.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: I take it he's referring to the blankets.

21 MR. JONES: The blankets on the cart, an unknown provenance.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, please answer the question. Are you in a

23 position to confirm that those blankets that you saw in the cart -- not

24 knowing whether they were actually your own or someone else's, were

25 actually taken to Srebrenica?

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

2 MR. DORIA:

3 Q. Thank you, Madam Stamenic. Madam Stamenic, you testified that you

4 saw a person who came into the cell and identified himself as Naser Oric;

5 is that correct?

6 A. Yes. He introduced himself as Naser Oric.

7 Q. Thank you, Madam Stamenic. Do you recall, apart from the person

8 who came in the cell and introduced himself as Naser Oric, do you recall

9 anyone else coming and identifying himself as Naser Oric?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Thank you. Madam Stamenic, you also testified, saying that you

12 saw a man who introduced himself as Zulfo coming into your cell; is that

13 correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Thank you. Do you recall anyone else coming into your cell, apart

16 from the man who introduced himself as Zulfo, coming and introducing

17 himself also as Zulfo?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Thank you. Madam Stamenic, you testified yesterday and today

20 again that a certain man called Ilija and two other males came into your

21 cell bending, bringing firewood for you. Do you recall why they were

22 bending? Do you know why they were bending?

23 JUDGE AGIUS: I think that question was asked by -- it wasn't

24 asked by you when she was referring to that instance, but the same

25 question has been asked by Mr. Jones.

1 MR. DORIA: Yes. I am coming back on this issue.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. But then come to the issue. She has already

3 stated that she has no idea why they were bending and whether -- it was

4 put to her that perhaps they were bending over because of the weight of

5 the logs they were supposedly carrying, she said she can't confirm that.

6 So if you have any further question arising out of the cross-examination

7 that could better enlighten us, go ahead. If you don't, move to something

8 else.

9 MR. DORIA: Thank you. Thank you.

10 Q. Madam Stamenic, do you recall if the men who came bending, who

11 were bending only when they entered into the cell or also when they were

12 going out of the cell?

13 A. I don't remember that.

14 Q. Thank you. Your Honour, if we could go to a private session,

15 please?

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, let's go into private session for a while,

17 please.

18 [Private session]

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7 [Open session]

8 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session, Mr. Doria.

10 MR. DORIA: Your Honour, I have no more questions.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Doria.

12 Yes, Mr. Jones, I understand you had one final question that you

13 seek permission to put to the witness --

14 MR. JONES: Yes.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: -- arising out a point that was made by Mr. Doria.

16 You seek to put the question --

17 MR. JONES: In private session, yes.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: I think it needs to be put in private session.

19 There is no objection on our part, that you put this question. But it

20 needs to be put in private session.

21 [Private session]

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11 [Open session]

12 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session. Madam Stamenic, we are

14 approaching the end, but there are a few questions that the bench would

15 like to put to you, starting with Judge Hans Henrik Brydensholt who comes

16 from Denmark. He has a question for you.

17 Questioned by the Court:

18 JUDGE BRYDENSHOLT: Yes. When you were on the stretcher in the

19 prison cell and a man who introduced himself as Naser Oric came to the

20 cell, did he enter the cell? Did he go to where you were placed on the

21 stretcher? Or did he just remain on the door opening?

22 A. He came up to the stretcher, up to the place where I was.

23 JUDGE BRYDENSHOLT: And I understand he asked you, "Why are you in

24 a stretcher?" And do you remember, what did you explain to him?

25 A. Yes.

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1 JUDGE BRYDENSHOLT: What did you say? Do you remember that?

2 A. That I had been wounded. He asked me why I was on the stretcher.

3 JUDGE BRYDENSHOLT: And you answered that you had been wounded.

4 Did you tell him, do you remember, that you had been to the hospital?

5 A. I didn't say that. I don't remember.

6 JUDGE BRYDENSHOLT: Okay, thank you.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Judge Albin Eser from Germany would like

8 to put some questions to you.

9 JUDGE ESER: May I start with the question --

10 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the Judge, please.

11 JUDGE ESER: May I start with the question, Mrs. Stamenic

12 following the last question of Judge Brydensholt, how long did the visit

13 of the person who called himself or introduced himself as Naser Oric take?

14 Could you describe how many minutes? Was it short or longer?

15 A. A short visit.

16 JUDGE ESER: And beside talking about your wounding and whether

17 you got food, did you talk about any other subject while he was in your

18 cell?

19 A. No.

20 JUDGE ESER: I would like to go back to the happenings that go

21 along the line. And your testimony in connection with the events is

22 soldiers came to your village and to your house. And you stated -- and I

23 will read it from yesterday's testimony -- that "the soldiers were moving

24 about and so were the civilians. They were loading up things from the

25 house, up on to the ox cart."

1 Now, who was the "they"? "They were loading." Who was loading?

2 Before you mentioned soldiers and civilians. Now, who was loading?

3 A. The civilians.

4 JUDGE ESER: Now, you told us that they were loading, they were

5 taking away blankets and cheese. Now, was there any other food in your

6 house? Or do you know what was the reason why they did only -- took

7 cheese?

8 A. I don't know.

9 JUDGE ESER: Now, with regard to this woman Djemila who told you

10 that you would be exchanged. Did you have the impression that she told

11 you this hope on her own? Or that it was done in some sort of agreement

12 with the soldiers?

13 A. Well, I don't know.

14 JUDGE ESER: Now, you had testified that the evening before you

15 have been exchanged, Zulfo came to your cell and he informed you that you

16 would be exchanged. Now, between your capture and three weeks later when

17 you have been exchanged, were there any information given to you or given

18 any reason why you were captured and that you would, later, be exchanged?

19 A. No. The only person who told us anything was Djemila. She told

20 us we would be exchanged. No reasons whatsoever were given to us by

21 anybody else.

22 JUDGE ESER: So the time between your capture, when you have been

23 informed by Djemila and you were told by Zulfo before the exchange, no

24 reason was given by you why you have been kept in the cell? Is that

25 correct?

1 A. Yes.

2 JUDGE ESER: Now, you testified that some of the other women had

3 been taken away and interrogated or at least they have been asked

4 questions. Now, when they came back, did they tell a little bit about

5 what they have been asked? Or would they just come back and keep silent?

6 A. They returned and they didn't say anything.

7 JUDGE ESER: Does this mean that while you were in the cell that

8 you had not a lot of talk between each other?

9 A. No.

10 JUDGE ESER: No. But if people are in a cell for such a long

11 time, was there a reason why you did not talk with each other a lot? That

12 you kept silent, as I assume from your answer?

13 MR. JONES: Or whether they didn't talk a lot. I don't think she

14 said they were silent.

15 JUDGE ESER: They did not talk a lot, yes.

16 A. No.

17 JUDGE ESER: What do you mean with "no"? I wanted to know what --

18 A. We didn't say much.

19 JUDGE ESER: And was there a reason why you did not say much?

20 A. Yes.

21 JUDGE ESER: And what was the reason?

22 A. Fear.

23 JUDGE ESER: Mm-hmm, thank you. No further questions.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Judge Eser.

25 I have got just one final question for you, and then it's over.

1 Madam Stamenic, you've told us how, on one particular day during

2 your stay in the Detention Centre in Srebrenica, a man walked into your

3 cell and identified or introduced himself as Naser Oric.

4 After that day, did you ever see that person again in your life?

5 A. No.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.

7 That brings us to the end of our -- of your testimony. Before you

8 go, I want to make sure, first and foremost, that you have been given all

9 the assistance and attention that you needed to be able to go to where you

10 are now and give testimony. Can you confirm that to me, please.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't understand what you're

12 asking.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: What I am asking is, I want to make sure that

14 everything has been organised well for you and that you have received all

15 the assistance that you needed so that you could go to where you are now

16 and give testimony.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: I can also assure you that our staff over there will

19 now, once your testimony is over, give you all the assistance you require

20 to facilitate your return back home at the earliest.

21 On behalf of the Trial Chamber and on behalf of Judge Brydensholt

22 and Judge Eser and myself, and also on behalf of the Tribunal, I should

23 like to thank you, Madam Stamenic, for having accepted to give evidence in

24 this trial which the Prosecutor has instituted against Naser Oric. And we

25 also wish you a safe journey back home from where you are. Thank you.

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: So I think we can conclude the videolink and prepare

3 ourselves to usher the next witness. However, I smell in the air some

4 news about this next witness.

5 MS. SELLERS: Yes Your Honour I just want to confirm that the next

6 witness has informed us that he will not be using protective measures.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: None of the protective measures that we granted

8 earlier on?

9 MS. SELLERS: Yes, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Fine.

11 MR. JONES: Just for the record, Your Honour, we looked into this

12 yesterday, and as far as I understood it, that in any event, the

13 Prosecution would have -- would have had to apply for protective measures

14 because it was only pre-trial protective measures leading up to the

15 present. We have seen with C-001 and C-007 there is a need to apply for

16 protective measures when the witness testifies. I just wanted to state

17 that understand for the record, because that is our understanding.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, we will see into that and the Prosecution will

19 see into that. I think that your submission is correct. But in any case

20 the question does not arise with this witness any further. In other

21 words, he has agreed to testify without protective measures in place.

22 MS. SELLERS: That is my understanding.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: In other words, you do not see the utility of us

24 going into closed session for a while, for a minute or two, to have him

25 confirm this?

1 MS. SELLERS: I understand we do not even have a need for even a

2 very short period of closed session.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Then let's usher him in.

4 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, might you give us one minute to change

5 team members.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, certainly, Ms. Sellers.

7 MS. SELLERS: Thank you.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: I take it that -- who will be leading this witness,

9 Mr. Di Fazio or yourself?

10 MS. SELLERS: Mr. Di Fazio.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: I thought so. Yes. I thought so. In fact, here he

12 comes. For the record, Mr. Di Fazio now enters the courtroom, together

13 with Ms. Richardson, while Mr. Doria leaves.

14 Usher, could you please escort the witness in.

15 Mr. Di Fazio, I hope that this witness knows that he will be here

16 for roughly a week or a little bit less than that.

17 MR. DI FAZIO: He has commitments on the 12th and says that the

18 last day that he can testify is next Monday, but I would think that he

19 would be finished by then.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: I hope so. We will see what the situation is and,

21 if necessary, we will split the time equally between you, Prosecution and

22 Defence, and seek to get an undertaking from each of you to finish within

23 the time limit allocated to you.

24 [The witness entered court]

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you.

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Please relax. And before I proceed any further, I

3 want to make sure that you are receiving interpretation of what I am

4 saying in English in your own language, or in a language that you can

5 understand.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Now, this is something which is of course very

8 important. If at any time, during your testimony here or during the

9 proceedings, there is faulty reception or faulty interpretation or you're

10 not receiving interpretation at all, please draw our attention to that

11 straight away so that we will address it and make sure that everyone is

12 receiving interpretation. Do you understand me? Understand me?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. The other thing that I wanted to have

15 clarified from you is the following: You have -- you would have noticed

16 that so far I have not mentioned your name. And the reason is that

17 sometime back, upon your own request, we had placed, in your favour, some

18 protective measures, some of which -- or practically all of them were

19 meant to hide your identity.

20 We have been informed, this morning, that you no longer seek to

21 have in place these protective measures and that you are willing to

22 testify in open session with no hiding of your identity or withholding of

23 any of your identity any further. Is that correct?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: So now I can address you by your name and surname,

1 Mr. Hakija Meholjic. That's you, isn't it?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Good morning to you and welcome to this

4 Tribunal. Very soon you will be starting giving evidence in this case,

5 which the Prosecution has instituted against Naser Oric.

6 Our Rules require that before you start giving evidence, you make

7 a solemn declaration. Unlike in many jurisdictions, we don't have an

8 oath, but we have got something which has the same legal effects. We call

9 it a solemn declaration. It is contained in a piece of paper that has

10 just been handed to you by Madam Usher. Our request is that you read out

11 that declaration aloud and that will be your solemn undertaking with this

12 Tribunal that, in the course of your testimony you will be speaking the

13 truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Please go ahead.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

15 the truly, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

16 WITNESS: HAKIJA MEHOLJIC

17 [Witness answered through interpreter]

18 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, sir. Please take a seat.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: I want to make yourself comfortable and feel

21 relaxed. If at any time you need a break, please tell us so, and we will

22 give you a break. We usually have a break every hour and a half. Since

23 you are starting now, the next break will roughly be in 45 minutes' time

24 from now. But as I said, should you require us to stop for a while,

25 please let us know. The first to go will be Mr. Di Fazio, who you have

1 met already.

2 He will put to you a series ever questions which I kindly ask you

3 to answer as fully as possible and as truthfully as possible, in

4 conformity with the oath that you have just taken.

5 He will be followed later on by Madam Vidovic, who is lead counsel

6 defending Mr. Naser Oric, and again your responsibility, in terms of your

7 oath, is to answer their questions equally, fully, and truthfully. You

8 have absolutely no right to draw or to make any distinctions between

9 questions coming from the Prosecutor -- Prosecution and questions coming

10 from the Defence. Each side has the right to put questions and you have

11 an obligation under oath now to answer those questions truthfully and

12 honestly to the best of your ability. Did I make myself clear to you?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. One final thing is that you will be

15 testifying here for a number of days. I wish to make it clear to you that

16 there is an absolute prohibition on you to discuss the merits of your

17 testimony with anyone outside this courtroom. In other words, during

18 breaks or between sittings and between sessions, you're not allowed to

19 discuss the merits of your testimony with anyone. That includes, also,

20 over the phone with relatives or friends that you might try to talk to

21 over the days. Have I made myself clear?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. The other thing, if in the course of

24 your testimony you wish to bring to the notice of the Trial Chamber

25 anything, please feel free to do so. We are here to make sure that you

1 begin and finish your testimony without -- with the least interruptions

2 and without any interference. All right?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Okay.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

5 Mr. Jones -- sorry, Mr. Di Fazio. Your turn will come later,

6 Mr. Jones.

7 Let me first clear this up with the witness. Witness, I

8 understand that you would like to be back home by a certain day.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: When.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I must go home Tuesday a week, at

12 the latest.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: So today a week? So I am tasking the Prosecution to

14 liaise with the Victims and Witnesses' Unit, with a view to making sure

15 that if we finish on Monday, the witness can find himself back home on

16 Tuesday. Because I don't know if there are any flights available on

17 Monday and we need to verify that and make certain that there are.

18 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. I understood that the witness is happy to --

19 oh, if -- perhaps we should be clear about this. Does he need to actually

20 fly back on the on Monday? Or could he fly back on the Tuesday? Because

21 I understood he could fly back on the Tuesday.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: The way I have understood it is that he can stay

23 here Tuesday. That's how I have understood it, but ...

24 Yes, Mr. Meholjic.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I must be in Bosnia on Tuesday.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: He must be in Bosnia on Tuesday.

2 MR. DI FAZIO: Fine.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: And I don't know on Tuesday of next week what time

4 we are sitting, whether we're sitting in the morning or whether we're

5 sitting in the afternoon. In any case, it will be safer to mark time

6 Monday as the last day of his testimony and only exceptionally go beyond

7 that. But in any case, in a way that would ensure a return to his country

8 by Tuesday at the latest. So I am tasking you with that, addressing you,

9 Mr. Di Fazio, because you will be leading this witness.

10 MR. DI FAZIO: I will undertake to that.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Di Fazio.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: You can lead the witness on the initial questions.

13 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

14 Examined by Mr. Di Fazio:

15 MR. Di FAZIO:

16 Q. Mr. Meholjic, I think you were born on the 7th of April, 1949.

17 You are of Muslim ethnicity. You're married, and you've got two children.

18 Correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Just on the issue of your testimony here, I can inform you that on

21 the 21st of October 2004, this Trial Chamber issued an order that you be

22 subpoenaed and attend at -- to this court to testify. Can you tell the

23 Trial Chamber if in fact you were served with a subpoena on the fifth of

24 November last year at a location in the former Yugoslavia?

25 A. Yes.

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1 Q. Thank you. And you are here to testify in answer to that court

2 order? You have to answer, because your words are recorded and it becomes

3 part of the transcript. So just let us know, yes or no.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Continuing your personal background. You --

6 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, before you continue. For the record,

7 the subpoena was issued, for the record, because the witness showed

8 reluctance to come forward and testify.

9 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. I wanted to make it clear that he is here --

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Exactly. He was unwilling to come.

11 MR. DI FAZIO: Unwilling to come but has met his obligation.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes. But we must make it clear that the

13 subpoena was issued not capriciously but because there was an intimation

14 from his side that he was unwilling to come forward and testify.

15 MR. DI FAZIO: There is no question about that.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: So let's move. Thank you, Mr. Di Fazio.

17 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

18 Q. Continuing your personal details, you've had over 20 years'

19 experience as a police officer. I'm talking about the period of time

20 prior to the outbreak of war in 1992.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. 1989 you were appointed the chief of police for the town of

23 Srebrenica?

24 A. Well, I tend to say commander instead of chief. I would call my

25 position the sector commander. You're saying the chief of police, but we

1 had the area divided into different sectors and in the area of Srebrenica,

2 the municipality of Srebrenica, there were several sectors and so there

3 was more than one person in charge of individual sectors and I was in

4 charge of the town of Srebrenica.

5 Q. Thank you for that clarification. And a year later -- sorry. My

6 apologies. About a year after the war started in Bosnia, around the 26th

7 of April, 1993, you were appointed as the commander of police or chief of

8 police, whatever is the appropriate expression, for the Srebrenica

9 municipality; is that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And who appointed you to that position?

12 A. It followed a proposal from the Presidency an I was appointed by

13 the minister of the interior Bakir Alispahic.

14 Q. Thank you. The proposal -- you said a proposal from the

15 Presidency. Which Presidency are you referring to?

16 A. The municipality of Srebrenica.

17 Q. Thank you. And following your appointment to that position, can

18 you tell us who was appointed as your subordinate commander of uniformed

19 police?

20 A. No one. I was superior. I was the chief of police and we had

21 three sectors there. One, the uniformed police led by a commander, and

22 then there was the crime squad, and then administrative and legal affairs,

23 that was the third department. And the person in charge of administrative

24 staff was also in charge of issuing documents, IDs, et cetera.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Mr. Di Fazio.

1 Madam Vidovic.

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] There was a mistake in

3 interpretation. The witness was asked about his superior, but -- no, his

4 deputy and it was interpreted as superior. And therefore the witness

5 might have been confused. But my impression now is that the witness has

6 actually understood the question properly and so that's why I wanted to

7 intervene.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. I don't think it is the case of

9 rectifying anything. Do you have any questions? It's all right. Let's

10 proceed.

11 I thank you Madam Vidovic. I got the same impression too,

12 actually and Judge Eser at the same time was fully aware of what was going

13 on at the same time. Proceed, Mr. Di Fazio.

14 MR. DI FAZIO:

15 Q. Let me approach it this way: Do you know a gentleman named Tajib

16 Mustovic?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Following your appointment as chief or commander of police in

19 April of 1993, did he play any role in the police hierarchy; if so, what

20 was it?

21 A. The commander of uniformed police.

22 Q. Subordinated to you?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And do you know a gentleman named Rasid Efendic?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Did he play any role in the hierarchy of police and, if so, what

2 was that role?

3 A. Yes, he did have a role. He was the chief of the crime squad.

4 Q. Was he subordinate to you?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Did you remain holding that position as commander or chief of

7 police for Srebrenica municipality until the fall of Srebrenica in July of

8 1995?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Prior to the outbreak of war in April of 1992, had you been a

11 member of any political party or parties? Can you tell us?

12 A. Yes. I was in the communist league of the former Yugoslavia.

13 Q. And did you join any other parties in the period of time closer to

14 1992?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Have you ever -- do you know of a party called the social

17 democratic party? SDP?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Have you ever had any connections with that party?

20 A. I am a member -- no, there must be a mistake. He first said SDA

21 and now it looks like SDP, so it's the SDP that you're talking about. I

22 am indeed a member of the SDP in Bosnia-Herzegovina and I'm a member of

23 its highest body, that is to say the main council of the board of the

24 party.

25 Q. Right. I'm sorry if I -- if I made a mistake. I thought I said

1 SDP, but in any event, I just want to know a bit more about that, your

2 connections with that political party, the SDP. Were you a member of that

3 party in early 1992?

4 A. Yes, I was.

5 Q. Thank you. Do you know a gentleman named Naser Oric?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Tell the Trial Chamber approximately how long you've known him.

8 A. Perhaps -- I don't know what you mean. I met him perhaps three or

9 four years before the start of the war and then since then, of course.

10 Q. Well, let me just ask you this. Throughout the years 1992 to

11 1995, that period of time, did you have dealings with him on numerous

12 occasions?

13 A. I don't know what you mean by "numerous occasions," but we did

14 have contacts.

15 Q. Turning to the period of time prior to the outbreak of war in

16 April of 1992. Can you tell the Trial Chamber what his position was, if

17 you know, in the Srebrenica area. What position did he hold?

18 A. I've told you that in case of crisis situations every municipality

19 in the system back then was divided into war police stations, which were

20 divided into and distributed across local communities. And Naser was the

21 commander of the reserve police station at Potocari.

22 Q. Do you know how long he held that position, and the period of time

23 in which he held that position?

24 A. I've told you that when there is a crisis situation, that is to

25 say an actual disaster or a risk of war, that was the usual approach. And

1 in such a situation, reserve police stations are set up, or rather war

2 police stations manned by reservists, and they could be there when there

3 was a crisis situation, in much the same way as I was. I can't really

4 remember the date, but when there was a crisis, yes, that's when it

5 happened.

6 Q. Moments ago you said that Naser was the commander of the reserve

7 police station at Potocari. During what period of time was Naser the

8 commander of the reserve police station at Potocari? That's my question.

9 A. When the crisis or rather the war broke out in Bosnia and

10 Herzegovina, perhaps five or six months, I can't really tell you exactly.

11 I don't remember. But until the outbreak, or rather until the 17th of

12 April, that's when everything fell apart. And there was nothing left.

13 The 17th of April, 1992.

14 Q. Can I -- do I understand your answer to be that you believe that

15 Mr. Oric was the commander of the reserve police station at Potocari for a

16 period of about five or six months preceding April 17, 1992?

17 A. Yes. But maybe a shorter period of time as well. As of the

18 moment when the chief of police issued the order for that to be set up,

19 for that body to be set up, that's when it happened. Nothing else. I

20 can't really remember the time scale. It was a long time ago.

21 Q. In that period of time leading up to the outbreak of war, April of

22 1992, did you have any social dealings with Mr. Oric? Or did you just

23 know of him as a professional colleague?

24 A. Well, Naser is younger than I am, livelier. He had his friends, I

25 had my friends. We were colleagues. But we didn't go out together. I

1 mean, he was not married and I was a married man, so we're talking about

2 different lifestyles as it were. And he was there for a short period of

3 time. Too short in order for us to be able to spend time together

4 socially, but we did have a good relationship, yes. We did.

5 Q. Thank you. I want you to turn your attention now to the structure

6 of the police in Srebrenica municipality prior to the outbreak of war in

7 April of 1992. First of all, can you tell the Trial Chamber who was the

8 overall chief of police or commander of police for the Srebrenica

9 municipality?

10 A. Hamed Salihovic.

11 Q. Thank you. And who was next down from him?

12 A. Mustafic.

13 Q. And at that -- I've already asked you about Tajib Mustafic in

14 1993, but at that time prior to the outbreak of war in April 1992, what

15 was his official position?

16 A. He was a commander, the commander of the uniformed police. He

17 held the position in 1993, but also before the outbreak of the war he was

18 our commander.

19 Q. Thanks for that clarification. You've already touched upon this

20 subject, namely the sectors. Was Srebrenica municipality divided up into

21 various sectors? Police sectors I mean.

22 A. What I'm going to say -- well, please don't take it as the whole

23 truth. I'm just going to explain what I'm trying to say. We had 19 local

24 communities. As to whether we had 19 war police stations or how many, I

25 can't tell you. But the municipality was divided into many of these local

1 communities and there were quite a few of them.

2 Q. And one such sector was the sector -- I'm talking about the

3 pre-war period, pre-April 1992 -- the one such sector was the Srebrenica

4 town?

5 A. Yes. Yes.

6 Q. And you were the commander or the chief of police, whatever is the

7 appropriate expression, for that sector, Srebrenica town, prior to the

8 outbreak of war?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Who was the commander of the -- of any sector that might have

11 encompassed Potocari?

12 A. I think it was Naser Oric.

13 Q. You earlier mentioned that he was the -- he was in charge of

14 reserve police. Do I take it, from your answer, that he was also in

15 charge of uniform police for the sector of Potocari?

16 A. I must clarify a couple of things. Unfortunately, well, I've come

17 here to tell the truth and I'm going to tell the truth. But you have to

18 give me some space. I have to be able to explain things properly. We did

19 not have all that many police officers, we had very few of them, in fact.

20 So if you think in terms of 19 local communities and two people per

21 community, I mean we don't -- simply did not have that many professional

22 police officers. So for the most part, those police stations were manned

23 by reservists, perhaps one or two professional police officers, depending

24 on the police station, but Naser was professional. And the second man

25 would be a reservist and the same applied to me.

1 Q. Okay. Thanks. That's a good clarification. Thank you for that.

2 Can I ask you now to turn to events at the very outbreak of war. And I

3 don't want to dwell too long on this particular topic.

4 On the 17th of April, 1992, are you aware of Serb forces or Serbs

5 in the Bratunac area issuing any sort of ultimatum?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. To whom was that ultimatum issued?

8 A. To us, Muslims.

9 Q. Where was the ultimatum issued and to which particular individuals

10 was the ultimatum issued?

11 A. To the president of the municipality. I believe that his name was

12 Besim Ibisevic. His last name was Ibisevic. I'm not sure about his first

13 name. I believe that it was Besim. Also, it was issued to Dr. Saber

14 Begic and to Alija Hasic on behalf of the police station.

15 In Bratunac, it was issued to the Fontana hotel, where the talks

16 were held, and the ultimatum was given to us saying that by 18 of April,

17 at 8.00 in the morning, the Muslims should hand over their weapons.

18 Q. Thank you. Just a few more details on this -- on this matter. I

19 take it you -- I take it you weren't present when this ultimatum was

20 issued, it's something that you learnt of later?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. The three men that you mentioned, the president of the

23 municipality and Dr. Begic and Mr. Hasic, they comprised the delegation

24 that went to Bratunac?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. And it's your understanding that there, in Bratunac, they received

2 this ultimatum?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Did they return to Srebrenica?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And following their return, was there a meeting held in Srebrenica

7 to discuss this issue of the issuance of the ultimatum by Serbs?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Did you attend that meeting?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And was the ultimatum explained at the meeting? The nature of the

12 ultimatum, what it was, what was required?

13 A. Yes. Shall I explain?

14 Q. You can, but just before you do, I would like you to tell the

15 Trial Chamber, can you recall who was present at the meeting?

16 A. Oh.

17 Q. I don't need everybody's name, but the names you can remember, the

18 more important personalities and figures, who were there.

19 A. I don't know whether there were any prominent persons there.

20 There was myself. Hamed Salihovic, Alija Hasic, Nurija Porobic, Suljo

21 Hasanovic, Tajib Mustafic, Jusuf Halilovic. There was also the president

22 of the municipality. Dr. Sabit Begic was there. There may have been

23 somebody else, but I can't remember.

24 Q. Thank you. And can you tell us how the meeting progressed, what

25 was discussed?

1 A. The president of the municipality informed us of the fact that the

2 delegation had been invited to come to Bratunac by the JNA and the SDS,

3 and that the ultimatum had been given to us, to the Muslim forces,

4 although we did not have any forces at that time, that we should hand over

5 our weapons by 8.00 in the morning of the 18th, which was the following

6 day.

7 As far as I knew -- first of all I was surprised that I was at the

8 meeting, because I was not a member of the municipality, but at the

9 meeting I realised that there were no weapons to speak of. What we had

10 was in the police station. In the police station we had light weapons,

11 Serbs, Muslims, Croats, the Roma had their personal weapons such as

12 pistols and batons. It was not the police station that distributed arms

13 to the members of the police of only one nation. Those were the

14 distributed to the reservists and to the active officers alike.

15 In the former system the police was in charge of protecting the

16 leaves and the property of citizens. Whereas the JNA was there to defend

17 Yugoslavia and not to shoot at their own people. If they indeed

18 considered these people to be their own.

19 Q. Thank you for that background detail, but it is not exactly what

20 I'm seeking. I wanted to know how the meeting progressed and any

21 decisions that were taken regarding weaponry in particular. The

22 background political undercurrents and details are not a matter I need

23 trouble you with, okay? The facts, as they say; could you tell us how

24 the meeting progressed.

25 A. This was also a fact. But let me move to the meeting itself. The

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1 chief of the police station, Mr. Hamed Salihovic, to my great surprise,

2 said only this, and I will quote; I remember it well. He said that he was

3 speechless. This man Mustafic, who was my commander, asked if anybody

4 could guarantee his life if he surrendered his weapons. And then

5 Dr. Sabic said, who could guarantee that. Suljo Hasanovic interfered and

6 said he was not prepared to hand over his pistol. We laughed at that.

7 The situation was difficult, and this sounded like a joke. Then they

8 asked me whether I would surrender my weapons and I said, "no."

9 Q. Just pause there. Explain to the Trial Chamber, when these men at

10 the meeting said -- asked you will you hand over your weapons, what

11 precisely did you understand them to be referring to? A shotgun back

12 home? Or weapons in a police station? What weapons are you -- did you

13 understand them to be speaking about?

14 A. To the weapons that was held at the police station.

15 Q. Thank you. Continue. And how did you react to that suggestion?

16 A. My suggestion was that we should go to the woods, to organise

17 people for defence and I said, "I am not surrendering my weapon. For as

18 long as I have my piece I'm safe." In Bratunac they had already started

19 stopping people and killing people, and we drew from that experience, and

20 that's why I said I would not surrender my weapon.

21 Q. Was there any final decision taken by the assembled men at this

22 meeting regarding the issue of any weaponry or regarding any response to

23 be given to the Serb forces concerning the ultimatum?

24 A. Nothing was concluded. Everybody fled Srebrenica. They left

25 people to their own means.

1 Q. Thank you. And following the meeting, where did you go?

2 A. After the meeting, I went to the temporary police station, which

3 was in the hunters' hall, where that police station was temporarily

4 located at.

5 Q. That's in, somewhere -- in Srebrenica town itself?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Is that the place called Lovac?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And police weaponry, normal police weaponry for day-to-day police

10 activities, was that located there?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Did you see or meet anyone at Lovac?

13 A. Yes. I saw some people. I told them that Srebrenica had

14 surrendered and I told them that if they wanted to, they could go to the

15 woods or go back home, as they wished.

16 Q. Did you see Mr. Oric that day?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. At Lovac?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Your Honours, this is a discrete topic in itself; would this be an

21 appropriate moment?

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Di Fazio. We will have a 25-minute

23 break starting from now. Thank you.

24 --- Recess taken at 12.27 p.m.

25 --- On resuming at 1.06 p.m.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Di Fazio.

2 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you, Your Honours.

3 Q. All right. Now, before the break, we got to the point where

4 you -- you told us about your decision to go up to Lovac where the weapons

5 were located, the police station there, and that you met Mr. Oric. Tell

6 the Trial Chamber what passed between you, what did you discuss.

7 A. Mr. Oric came to me sometime in the afternoon or early evening.

8 He told me that there was nobody for him to approach, that Salihovic, the

9 head of the police, passed through Potocari and told them "everything is

10 over. You do whatever, and you all go your own way."

11 He came to ask me what I would do. I suppose that he did not go

12 to Suceska. He did not talk to anybody else. He came to Srebrenica and I

13 told him that I decided to go to the woods and see what would happen. And

14 then he said to me: "What if you surrender your weapons and you -- and

15 the -- Srebrenica fell?" I said that I wouldn't do that. So we said that

16 we would both go to the woods. Some people had fled. Very few people

17 were left in his police station and in mine. There were no

18 communications. The repeater no longer existed. The municipality powers

19 no longer existed. He went to Potocari. I went to the woods in the

20 evening with 56 other men.

21 Q. Thank you. Did he give you any information as to what he intended

22 to do in that situation?

23 A. No. He didn't know. I was not sure that he wouldn't leave.

24 Nobody knew anything. I was not his subordinate. He was not mine. This

25 was just a conversation of two men who were at the equal footing.

1 We were powerless. The police had fallen apart. The people were

2 left to their own means. We were -- it was not up to us to comfort the

3 people. We had to take our own destiny into our own hands. We were left

4 to our own means. We he can changed opinions on everything. And finally,

5 we concluded that we would go to the woods and see what would happen. And

6 if we could, we wanted to go to Tuzla. And if not, we would see what

7 would happen. This is how I remember things.

8 I believe that I said that there is a rock in Potocari called

9 Majdan, and from that rock you could see well what was going on on the

10 road. We were just a handful of people who had been issued an ultimatum

11 by a huge force. We had to see what we could do. And everybody had their

12 own views, and that's how he left. And we finally decided that maybe we

13 would see each other.

14 He decided to remain in the area of Potocari. I will remain in

15 the area of Srebrenica. And then we would see how things went.

16 Q. Okay. So in answer to my question, did he give you any

17 information as to what he intended to do in that situation, your answer

18 is - do I understand you correctly - that he told you he was going to

19 remain in Potocari?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Thank you. Did he tell you what he was going to do in Potocari,

22 what his plans were there?

23 A. We did not have any plans. We had to adapt to the situation. We

24 just wanted to see how the situation would go. Most of the people

25 believed that this foolish situation would come to an end within 15 days

1 or so. There was nothing specific. We were not prepared for anything.

2 There was nobody in charge to lead us or to plan anything. We were left

3 to our own means.

4 Q. Okay. Thank you. So you and Mr. Oric parted ways on -- on that

5 day?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Now, the 56 men that you had, were they all police officers?

8 A. Some reserve policemen fled, together with the rest of the people

9 and there were some other people who wanted to join the reserve police.

10 Nobody wanted to take weapons or anything. And during those five or six

11 days of crisis, they were given the weapons, those who wanted to become

12 reserve policemen.

13 Q. So in answer to my question, do I understand you to be saying that

14 the 56 men comprised policemen and aspiring reserve policemen. Do I

15 understand you correctly?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Thank you. What sort of weaponry did you have when you -- did you

18 and these 56 men have?

19 A. I had an automatic rifle made in Yugoslavia. There was also an

20 RAP, which is a combat set. I also had a pistol. This is what I had.

21 And I also had a machine-gun, M53. I had four PMs, which is somewhat

22 lighter than a classical machine-gun. I also had 18 automatic rifles.

23 When I said "I had," I mean the people who were with me. And I also had

24 some semi-automatic rifles. And there may have been some make-shift

25 rifles that people constructed themselves.

1 Q. Thank you. Did you and the group then leave Lovac and head up

2 into the hills and the forests around Srebrenica?

3 A. There were Serbs in Srebrenica. And I said that in the evening we

4 would turn on the lights in the -- Lovac and we would exit through the

5 back door and head towards the woods. And this is what we did. We left

6 the lights on in Lovac.

7 Q. Thank you. Now, it's not -- I don't think it is in dispute, that

8 you spent a period of time with your men out in the forests and the hills

9 and the area around Potocari.

10 Did you eventually return to Srebrenica?

11 A. Just a correction here. I was not around Potocari. I was around

12 Srebrenica.

13 Q. I'm sorry. That was my mistake. My apologies. You're quite

14 right. But it's not in dispute that you spent - I don't think - that you

15 spent some time in the area of the forest and hills around Srebrenica;

16 correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Just tell the Trial Chamber, when did you eventually make your way

19 back to Srebrenica?

20 A. I returned to Srebrenica at the beginning of the second half of

21 May.

22 Q. Thank you. Now, I would like to talk to you briefly about that

23 period of time between your taking to the hills, so to speak, and your

24 eventual return in the second half of May into the town itself.

25 Was Srebrenica shelled during that particular time?

1 A. On the night when we took to the woods, it was snowing. We were

2 not prepared for that. We didn't have any tents. We slept under the

3 trees. On the following day, on the 18th at half past one, the shelling

4 of Srebrenica started; actually, the parts of Srebrenica which were

5 populated by Muslims. In front of the house of Blasko, whose last name I

6 don't know, Blasko and his mother shelled Srebrenica From the place called

7 Kapura, above their house. Kapura, K-a-p-u-r-a, is the name of that

8 place.

9 Q. What I would like you to do is to try to give the judges an

10 overview of what you saw and heard happening in Srebrenica during that

11 period of time. Now in so far as shelling is concerned, can you tell

12 Their Honours, was it a daily occurrence or did it only occur once, or was

13 it intermittent in the period of time between your taking to the hills and

14 your return to Srebrenica. I want the Trial Chamber to get a picture of

15 the shelling. I don't need each day-by-day description, but just an

16 overall picture of what you saw and observed in so far as shelling is

17 concerned.

18 A. On the 18th, Srebrenica was shelled. Some of the population of

19 Srebrenica, Bosniaks, remained in the town. Later on, the White Eagles

20 came and Arkan's men also came. They planted, they beat people up and

21 killed them. And we were observing all of that.

22 We thought that maybe we should do something about that. However,

23 during the night we would meet by the white mosque in Srebrenica. We met

24 with a Serb called Slobodan Zekic, also known as Zes [phoen]; he was a

25 colleague of ours. He told us what had been going on in Srebrenica during

1 the day. We couldn't see that, although we could see a lot of things.

2 People were being killed. Houses were being torched. And we thought that

3 maybe we could conquer them militarily. However, the population was still

4 prepared to suffer. They didn't want to leave the place.

5 We could storm the town and do something. However, the stronger

6 forces would come and they would chase us out. The population told us not

7 to do that until the 6th of May. On the 29th of April, 1992, my house was

8 torched together with a number of other houses. I knew that I should not

9 reply, that I shouldn't respond to that. I wanted the war to be over.

10 However, there is some people who wanted to defend their houses, which was

11 absurd at the time. The Ustic family wanted to defend their house. They

12 didn't want to see their house being torched. On the 6th of April Goran

13 Zekic took a group of people who wanted to torch houses and they --

14 Q. Just pause there, sorry. First of all the date, the 6th of April

15 in relation to Mr. Goran Zekic. Are you correct there? Or is it another

16 date? April?

17 A. I know what you're asking me, but we will come to that. Goran

18 Zekic was not killed then. This was on the 6th of May when the nephew of

19 Akif Ustic, whose name was Muamer, was killed. I believe that his last

20 name was Cengic.

21 There was a clash taking place. They wanted to take the old town

22 of Srebrenica, the all the walls that sour owned a cluster of houses. We

23 call that the Old Town, Stari Grad. The Serb forces wanted to take that.

24 The Ustics put up resistance together with some other people. And

25 Mohammed [as interpreted] was killed. After that, some Serbs also got

1 killed. I don't know how many.

2 After that, shelling started and so on. Some two days later, I

3 believe, we were informed by Slobodan Zekic that Goran Zekic had been

4 seriously wounded.

5 Q. Now just tell the Trial Chamber who Goran Zekic is; just a

6 sentence or two will suffice.

7 A. Goran Zekic was the president of SDS at Srebrenica. He was a

8 member of their highest executive body, within the SDS, I don't know what

9 it's called, the main board or whatever. But anyway, the most important

10 body. Before the war, unfortunately, he was a judge at the municipal

11 court in Srebrenica. He was one of the Chetnik leaders. A Chetnik duke.

12 And we once had a meeting, him and myself and he insisted we have that

13 meeting. And he explained to me that the war was unavoidable and that his

14 mother had asked him not to become a war criminal. He lost his life very

15 early on, so I don't know whether he would have become a war criminal or

16 not.

17 Q. Fine.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Di Fazio, I'm trying to keep silent as much as I

19 can. But if we go on like this, this witness will be here for two weeks.

20 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, I know. I will try and make sure that the --

21 it's --

22 JUDGE AGIUS: There are two options either you control him

23 yourself or I control him.

24 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. I will do that, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Now, I address you. I do understand that many

1 witnesses come here and want to tell us the whole story, and I do

2 appreciate the fact that many witnesses wish to do this, because it's also

3 important for the history of the events. However, my suggestion to you is

4 that you try to answer the question that is put to you, the whole

5 question, but nothing but the question. Don't go beyond. Because you

6 will be here for weeks and not for days. And you won't be able to leave

7 here on Monday or on Tuesday. Please try to answer only the questions

8 that are put to you. If you go beyond that, and we don't stop you, you

9 will be here forever.

10 Mr. Di Fazio.

11 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. Thank you, Your Honours.

12 Q. So, what I would like to know is, following the death of this

13 Mr. Goran Zekic, in an ambush, did the Serb forces eventually leave

14 Srebrenica?

15 A. After Goran Zekic's death, they set fire to some people in their

16 houses and then they left Srebrenica. When I say "some people," I mean

17 Bosniaks.

18 Q. And did you re-enter Srebrenica some time later?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Approximately when?

21 A. I've told you. In beginning of the second half of May.

22 Q. And did you went with these 56 men that you've spoken about?

23 A. One less. No, no. I don't remember exactly, but there were not

24 as many people as all that.

25 Q. Now, where did the 56 men who were - sorry the 55, now - 55 men

1 who were with you go upon your re-entering Srebrenica?

2 A. We entered Srebrenica in the evening and we all went to our homes.

3 I went to my father's home since my home was no longer there.

4 Q. Do you know a place called the Domavija hotel?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Did any of your men take up residence there?

7 A. Not that night.

8 Q. But in the days that followed, did they take up residence there

9 and did you also work out of that place?

10 A. At a later stage we all stayed there and that's where I worked.

11 Q. And about what period of time would you say it was that you and

12 your men took up residence there, at the -- by the -- at the Domavija

13 hotel?

14 A. 24 hours a day.

15 Q. Yes. But about when following your return to Srebrenica? Was it

16 a day, or two, or three; or was it months later? Or did you slowly

17 gradually start to put your men in that particular place?

18 A. A couple of days later, two, three, four days later. I don't

19 know.

20 Q. All right. Thanks. Do you know a place call Bajramovici?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. About how far is it from Srebrenica?

23 A. Roughly speaking, perhaps five kilometres, something like that.

24 That's if you take the road. And as the crow flies, I don't know.

25 Q. Did you at some point of time become aware of there having been a

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1 meeting at that particular place?

2 A. I did not find out about the meeting being held, but I did find

3 out once it had been held.

4 Q. And, yes, okay. I understand that. Thank you. So I take it you

5 did not attend any meeting at Bajramovici?

6 A. No.

7 Q. When did you find out about this meeting at Bajramovici, was it

8 after your return to Srebrenica? Or was it while you were still up in the

9 hills and in the forests around Srebrenica?

10 A. Upon our return to Srebrenica.

11 Q. Thank you. Do you know a gentleman named Asim Tepic?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Okay, thank you. Tell the Trial Chamber what you first heard had

14 transpired at this meeting at Bajramovici.

15 A. When I got to Srebrenica and when I got to my parents' house, Asim

16 Tepic, who was my neighbour, came to see us that evening and he told me

17 that staff for the Territorial Defence was elected and that Naser was

18 appointed as commander.

19 Q. Okay. Were you asked to go anywhere?

20 A. They -- after Asim told me that I had to go to Domavija hotel and

21 talk to Naser and Ahmetic.

22 Q. Can I get the full name of Ametic, please, what's that gentleman's

23 name?

24 A. Asim Tepic. Asim Tepic.

25 Q. Okay, thank you. Did you in fact go to the Domavija hotel?

1 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, because I want to clarify this for sure.

2 Your previous question was the following: "Okay were you asked to go

3 anywhere?" And then he said "they, after Asim told me that I had to go to

4 the Domavija hotel, and talk to Naser and Ahmetic," and then you ask him;

5 "Can I get the full name of Ahmetic, please." What's that gentleman's

6 name and he said: "Asim Tepic." I don't think you were talking of the

7 same person. Because if you ask him for Ahmetic, it can't be Asim Tepic.

8 That's a different person.

9 MR. DI FAZIO: That's right. Thank you. Yes, I'm grateful,

10 Your Honour.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: So what we need to know from you is Ahmetic's name.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Akif Ustic.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Akif Ustic.

14 MR. DI FAZIO: Thanks for that.

15 Q. Now, did you go to the Domavija hotel?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Did this Asim Tepic, your neighbour, did he participate in the

18 meeting? Or was he just the man who brought you the message?

19 A. He just brought me the message.

20 Q. Thank you. And who was at the Domavija hotel when you went there?

21 A. I went with Amir Kulaglic and Halidam Delic [phoen], and at an

22 office there I found Akif Ustic and Naser Oric.

23 Q. Did you know what the meeting was to be about before you went?

24 A. I didn't know. How could I know what we were going to talk about?

25 Presumably the situation.

1 Q. Thank you. And about how long after your return to Srebrenica did

2 this meeting take place?

3 A. I think on the day after.

4 Q. Okay. Thank you. Did Mr. Oric speak to you?

5 A. At first Ustic addressed me, and then Naser participated in the

6 conversation later as well.

7 Q. Thank you. What did they say to you?

8 A. Akif told me about Naser being appointed as commander and he

9 himself as deputy commander, and that I was told that I should be disarmed

10 because I wasn't doing my job properly.

11 Q. You've already mentioned a meeting held at Bajramovici. Was it

12 explained to you, at this meeting, that there had been a previous meeting

13 at Bajramovici, where this election had taken place? That's what I would

14 like to know.

15 A. No. Asim Tepic told me, and I was simply told by them about their

16 own situation.

17 Q. Did they, did they provide you with anything more specific other

18 than that you should be disarmed because you weren't doing your job

19 properly? For example, did they say they wanted all the weaponry of your

20 men or ...

21 What exactly did they -- did they say to you?

22 A. Mainly Akif was leading the whole conversation and he said that we

23 should be disarmed. And when he said that, I replied "I have nothing to

24 say to you," and I left.

25 Q. Did Mr. Oric express any opinions at this meeting?

1 A. Well, he said that, yes, we had to do our job, but Akif wasn't

2 allowing for certain things to be done in a certain way. I think he was

3 upset because of his cousin's death.

4 Q. Who was upset?

5 A. Akif.

6 Q. What was the reaction when you made it clear that you weren't

7 going to comply with them, with what they wanted?

8 A. No. Nothing. I just left the meeting. And there was no reaction

9 on their part.

10 Q. Was there any conclusion or agreement reached between you all?

11 A. Not on that day.

12 Q. Thank you. Do you know a gentleman named Zulfo Tursunovic?

13 A. I do.

14 Q. Was he present on this occasion, or not?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Okay. Following the meeting, you'd been informed that Mr. Oric

17 was the commander of the -- sorry, it's gone off the screen. Would

18 Your Honours just bear with me for a moment.

19 Can you be a little more specific. When you said that Mr. Oric

20 was -- it was made known to you that Mr. Oric had been elected the

21 commander, did anyone explain to you or did you have any understanding as

22 to what he was the commander of?

23 A. The commander of the Territorial Defence of Srebrenica.

24 Q. Can you recall, can you tell the Trial Chamber if that expression

25 was used during this encounter with Mr. Oric and Mr. Ustic? "Territorial

1 Defence." "Territorial Defence of Srebrenica," do you remember that

2 actually being used during this meeting?

3 A. Akif opened the meeting and he informed me that Naser was elected

4 commander and he himself deputy commander, and it went without saying that

5 it was the Territorial Defence. I don't know what else. I mean, I don't

6 really recall whether anyone mentioned the term, but I do know - on that

7 occasion - but I do know that later on the term was being used.

8 Q. Thank you. Your evidence has been that the meeting was

9 inconclusive. Nothing was decided. Did you return to your men and to the

10 Domavija hotel?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Did you discuss what had transpired at the meeting with anyone?

13 A. Everyone. I held a meeting.

14 Q. Okay. Now, just -- let's be precise. When you say "everyone" who

15 do you mean exactly?

16 A. Everyone. I mean, you asked whether I talked to my men. I did

17 talk to all of my men.

18 Q. Okay, thanks. All right. And what did you say to them?

19 A. I told them that things were not going well. I informed them

20 about the situation, about the fact that some leadership had been elected.

21 I did not know about any of the names, any of the people. And I said that

22 the meeting was a difficult one and I told them what Ahim said. And we

23 decided that we would not relinquish our arms and that, if necessary, we

24 would continue through the woods in the direction of Tuzla.

25 Q. Thank you. Now, briefly tell the Trial Chamber why it was that

1 you didn't accept the election of Mr. Oric to this position that you have

2 described.

3 A. At the first meeting, nobody asked whether I agreed or not. It

4 was an attack on the part of Akif against me, against me as a person and

5 my men as well. And I've mentioned already, I mean on that day, on the

6 6th of April, no, on the 6th of May --

7 THE INTERPRETER: "I made a mistake," says the speaker.

8 THE WITNESS: -- his cousin was killed and he basically accused me

9 or blamed me for not providing any assistance. And that was my fault.

10 And if you ask a personal question, well, I can answer it. I

11 mean, there was no course of that sort at that particular meeting.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't really think that that answers your

13 question, Mr. Di Fazio, but it is up to you.

14 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.

15 Q. Did you leave that meeting agreeing, either openly or in your own

16 mind, to accept Mr. Oric as the commander of the TO, or not?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Now, tell the Trial Chamber why. Why didn't you accept it? He'd

19 been elected, at this meeting in Bajramovici, as the commander of the TO,

20 why did you not accept that?

21 A. It was one of the reasons. It was a complex time, and I thought

22 that Naser was young and that the entire situation in that area at the

23 time, that it was something that would likely prove very difficult for a

24 young and inexperienced person to deal with and to grapple with the

25 problems we had to grapple with. And I was against it for that reason.

1 No other reasons. No personal reasons or anything like that.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Where do you stand? Because we have already gone

3 past quarter to two.

4 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. I can -- we can stop here. That's not a

5 problem. I can finish this off tomorrow.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: So, Mr. Meholjic we are going to stop here for

7 today. We will resume tomorrow morning at 9.00. In the meantime try to

8 rest and come prepared so that you can then keep your questions to the --

9 what is just necessary so that we will do our best to make sure that you

10 go back home by Tuesday.

11 I would like you, Madam Vidovic, Mr. Jones, and you, Mr. Di Fazio,

12 to meet between now and tomorrow morning and agree on how you are going to

13 split the time this witness will be in the box between now and Monday, end

14 of the sitting on Monday.

15 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. And if it is the case of proceeding on

17 Tuesday, that's assuming that the sitting is also in the morning. Monday

18 it's definitely in the morning. I think Tuesday it is as well. But I

19 want to make sure that he would be in a position to return back home on

20 Tuesday if he is still testifying here on Tuesday.

21 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: So I am tasking you with -- sitting down together

23 and trying to agree on how you are going to split the time between you.

24 MR. DI FAZIO: We've already had a preliminary conversation.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, okay. But I would like it finalised. Thank

1 you.

2 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.48 p.m.,

3 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 6th day of

4 April, 2005 at 9.00 a.m.

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