1 Thursday, 21 April 2005
2 [Open session]
3 --- Upon commencing at 9.08 a.m.
4 [The accused entered court]
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Registrar, could you call the case,
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is the case
8 IT-03-68-T, the Prosecutor versus Naser Oric.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Mr. Oric, can you follow the proceedings
10 in your own language?
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour. I can
12 follow the proceedings in my own language.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. You may sit down and good morning to
15 Mr. Wubben, appearances for the Prosecution.
16 MR. WUBBEN: Good morning, Your Honour, and also good morning to
17 the Defence team. My name is Jan Wubben, lead counsel for the
18 Prosecution. I am here together with co-counsel, Ms. Patricia Sellers,
19 Ms. Joanne Richardson, and our case manager, Ms. Donnica Henry-Frijlink.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I thank you and good morning to you and your
22 Appearances for Naser Oric.
23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. I am
24 Vasvija Vidovic, and together with Mr. John Jones, I represent Mr. Naser
25 Oric. Together with us, our legal assistant, Miss Adisa Mehic, and our
1 case manager, Mr. Geoff Roberts.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Madam Vidovic, and good morning to you
3 and your team.
4 Any preliminaries before we bring in the witness?
5 MR. WUBBEN: Very short, Your Honours. It's good to be proactive,
6 and with a view to Rule 98 bis we face a kind of new procedure, and Your
7 Honours already touched base on that issue in the beginning of the trial.
8 For the Prosecution, there are some questions regarding the timing, the
9 procedure as such. It's not the content, but how it will follow up
10 itself, meaning: Does the Prosecution have some time to prepare after
11 submission, when a submission is done, of course, by Defence, or not,
12 given in days or in week, and how should we see this new procedure as it
13 will be one of the first proceedings with a view to oral hearing.
14 Is it possible for this Trial Chamber to give some guidance, some
16 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Wubben. Would you like to say
17 something at this stage, before, because he just -- Mr. Wubben just --
18 MR. JONES: Sprung this.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: It's as if he was reading my mind throughout the
20 entire week. And in actual fact, we and our staff have been working on
21 this, and my idea was to have a meeting, Judge Brydensholt, Judge Eser and
22 myself, sometime early next week to see that there is uniformity in our
23 approach to the matter. And then, since I believe, at least for the time
24 being - and this is what I will be suggesting to Judge Brydensholt and
25 Judge Eser - I think that this, the whole thing, which procedure should
1 apply in the first place, whether it's the new one or the old one, and if
2 it's the new one, how are we going to apply it? And if it's the old one,
3 how are we going to apply it, considering that there is a pronouncement by
4 the Judges of discontent with the old system.
5 So my idea was, in this meeting that I will be having with the
6 other two judges, to propose a short debate here in which you will be
7 invited to make submissions, and that would entail finding, say, between
8 half an hour -- half an hour, roughly, for submissions, 15 minutes each,
9 and then you will receive a direction from us as to what the procedure
10 will be and what to expect. But this will be done, hopefully, by the end
11 of next week, because it has been on my mind and I have been labouring on
12 it together with the staff.
13 MR. JONES: Yes, yes. There indeed must be something in the air,
14 Your Honour, because we ourselves yesterday found ourselves also turning
15 to this subject and wondering what the time periods would be and what the
16 procedure would be.
17 As far as the new procedure, there's Rule 6(D) concerning when
18 amendments come into effect, but I think for our part we assumed it would
19 be the new system with oral submissions, and again we weren't sure whether
20 it would be Prosecution responding immediately after us, or some delay,
21 but the one -- that's obviously to be considered, but one concern we had
22 is just that, given that it will be our motion, that we would have a right
23 to reply in any event.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Definitely. But you are probably right in thinking
25 that it will be the new procedure that will be applied. But at least
1 that's my personal opinion for the time being. I stand to be, of course
2 -- I'm open to conviction on that, and it's a subject that we have not
3 yet discussed. I'm being very clear about it. So the position of the
4 Trial Chamber is reserved completely on that.
5 There will be, however, an opportunity for you to make submissions
6 on this. So sometime next week, towards the end of the week, and it will
7 -- I suppose we should try to find a bracket on Wednesday, because
8 Thursday we stop again now, next week. I think we are not sitting from
9 Thursday onwards because of the Queen's birthday. Are we sitting on
10 Thursday? Oh, I see, we are sitting on Thursday. So we could leave it
11 until Thursday, then. We could leave it 'til Thursday. All right.
12 MR. WUBBEN: Thank you, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: But don't -- I just wanted to put your minds at rest
14 that no decision will be taken without giving you the opportunity to make
15 submissions on this matter, because it is something which is important. I
16 mean, I am used to a system, I can tell you, where this is done
17 immediately the Prosecution rests its case. Not even a five-minute break.
18 MR. JONES: That's the system I'm familiar with as well.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Not even a five minute break, I mean, so ...
20 The decision is taken orally by the Magistrate or by the Judge
21 there and then, on the same day.
22 MR. JONES: Yes.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Because it's something that would have matured in
24 the minds of Prosecutor, Defence and Judge or Magistrate, all along in the
25 course of -- we are all usually familiar with the exercise, what it
1 entails and where the line of demarcation is as regards evaluation of
2 evidence. So it's no big deal in my country, and I know it is no big deal
3 in your country, and it is no big deal in many other common law
4 jurisdictions, except in some states in the US where it is a big deal.
6 MR. JONES: Yes, that's why I was saying we're happy with an
7 immediate motion, provided there is an immediate response not a delayed
8 response, but that is all to be seen.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Of course, we will not adopt a system which is
10 typically Maltese or British. There will be time for elaborating a little
11 bit an ordered, reasoned-out line of submissions, but in all probability
12 that will be oral and not in written form. And I don't want even to let
13 you think for a moment that we're talking of time frames similar to the
14 ones we used to have until recently, where written motions, Rule 98 bis
15 motions were in place, or were adopted. I mean, I'm definitely not
16 thinking along those lines, but we will come to that next week.
17 The other problem that we have today: We have to finish, because
18 of the exigencies of one of the Judges, we have to finish between 1 and
19 1.15. 1.15 at the latest, at the very latest.
20 So what I suggest is that we will have one break, instead of -- we
21 will just have one break, which would be the full break, and we will try
22 to break, instead of half past ten, if it is okay with the interpreters
23 and everyone, we will try to break at quarter to eleven, 15 minutes later.
25 MR. WUBBEN: Okay, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. And then we will restart at 11.15 and we will
2 finish at 1.00, with a few minutes plus, if needed. All right? Thanks.
3 My secretary and the secretary of my two colleagues, Judge
4 Brydensholt and Judge Eser, felt very uncomfortable about having to come
5 here first thing in the morning, having to deal with a revised list of
6 documents which -- not in as much as it cut down on the ones that they had
7 selected for us the day before, but in as much they had to dig up fresh
8 documents in a matter of five minutes, because they usually come here just
9 a couple of minutes before we start the -- a few minutes before we start
10 the sitting. Please try to avoid that as much as you can. I know that
11 you were obviously working on it late in the evening yesterday, and I
12 appreciate that. On the other hand, do keep in mind that each time this
13 is done, there are problems.
14 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, Your Honour. Good morning. The Prosecution
15 will keep that in mind in the future with respect to the practicalities --
16 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm sure you will, Ms. Richardson. I mean, it
17 wasn't meant to be a criticism. It was meant to be a recommendation for
18 the future.
19 MS. RICHARDSON: I appreciate that, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thanks. Anything from your side? None?
21 None? Yes, the witness, please.
22 [The witness entered court]
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you. You may sit down. Good
24 morning, Mr. Becirovic. You may sit down.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning. Thank you.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Welcome again. We are going to proceed with the
2 examination-in-chief, hopefully finish with it today, then we are going to
3 stop 'til Monday. We will continue on Monday, because there are other
4 things happening that need to be attended to.
5 Yes, Ms. Richardson.
6 I just remind you that you are still testifying under oath in
7 terms of the -- pursuant to the solemn declaration that you entered
9 Yes, Ms. Richardson.
10 WITNESS: IBRAHIM BECIROVIC [Resumed]
11 [Witness answered through interpreter]
12 Examined by Ms. Richardson [Continued]
13 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour.
14 Q. Good morning, Mr. Becirovic. Yesterday when we ended, you were --
15 A. Good morning.
16 Q. -- you had been handed a document. I would like you to -- I
17 would like the usher's assistance in giving you that document again. I
18 just have a few more questions with respect to it. It is Prosecution's
19 Exhibit 532.
20 It is on Sanction. I would like you to take a look at this list
21 and I would ask you to please indicate for us, with respect to the
22 different individuals, where exactly they were located; whether they were
23 located in the PTT building or the information centre.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's take them -- first group. On the first page,
25 Hasanovic and Begic, where were they located, as far as you can remember?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I know that these two
2 persons were located in the Territorial Defence Staff building.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And as for the organisation --
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Finish.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Please allow me. I believe that
7 what I am going to say is really important. As far as I know, this
8 organisation was in place after the militarisation, not before.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. But that you told us already yesterday.
10 THE WITNESS: To the demilitarisation.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: That you told us yesterday. In fact, you expressed
12 your surprise that they are shown to have joined in 1992, when, according
13 to you, this happened after the demilitarisation.
14 Second list: Ahmetovic and Mehmedovic. Where were they located?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the Lovac building.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: And from the third list, where you have ten persons,
17 including yourself, first question: Were they all located in the same
18 building, or not?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, they were all located in the
20 same building, but not from the very beginning. They were not members of
21 the same unit, I mean.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: What was -- which was this building?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was the post office building.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: The PTT, in other words.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I don't know if you want to follow up
2 with any further questions on this last answer.
3 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, Your Honour, I do.
4 Q. Mr. Becirovic, was anyone located in the information centre, any
5 of the persons listed?
6 A. No.
7 Q. I would like to go back to one of the persons listed, and that is
8 number 1, the second list, and that's Ahmetovic, and it is indicated under
9 his duties that he operated the package communication.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no. Whoever is --
11 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone please.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Whoever is trying to highlight the name of the
13 person mentioned is highlighting the wrong person.
14 MS. RICHARDSON: I apologise, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: It is the second list, Ahmetovic Nedzad, that one.
16 MS. RICHARDSON: I appreciate that, Your Honour.
17 Q. Mr. Becirovic, if you could tell us, could you describe for us
18 what a package communication system is.
19 A. Package communication is a combination of a laptop or another type
20 of computer, with a radio equipment, and it was used for transmission of
21 information from one point to another.
22 Q. And what type -- I will rephrase the question. Did there come a
23 time that one such system was located in Srebrenica? And, if so, could
24 you tell us when.
25 A. As early as March 1993, yes.
1 Q. Do you know how the system was acquired? Where did it come from?
2 A. Nedzad Ahmetovic came from Tuzla and brought it with him. He
3 brought the equipment, so seven or maybe ten days after his arrival he was
4 able to install it and operate it.
5 Q. And the system, could you tell us whether or not it is a coded
6 system? In other words, do you send and receive messages in some type of
7 system that permits or allows for code?
8 A. Yes. This system did provide for the coding and decoding of
10 Q. Was Mr. Ahmetovic the only person who operated this system?
11 A. Nedzad Ahmetovic brought the equipment and trained, after a month
12 or two months, I can't be sure of the period, he trained Senahid
13 Mehmedovic and Hajrudin Siricic [phoen], and after that they helped him in
14 his work.
15 Q. Where was the system located? Is it correct it was -- I will
16 rephrase the question. Where was the system located?
17 A. It was in the Lovac building. Although on several occasions
18 Nedzad was forced to change locations, because it was not always possible
19 for him to establish contact from the Lovac building. Those locations
20 were mostly in the suburbs of Srebrenica and on some surrounding hills.
21 For example, Bojna hill.
22 Q. So could you tell us what period of time in 1993 the equipment was
23 moved and to where?
24 A. It happened from time to time. He would go to a house on Bojna
25 hill. From there, it was easier for him to establish communication with
1 Tuzla. It didn't happen often. He performed most of his work in the
2 Lovac building.
3 Q. Did this system work throughout 1993? Was it operational?
4 A. As far as I know, it did.
5 Q. And in 1994 as well?
6 A. In 1994, on two occasions the system broke down. The system
7 software had problems and they could not work for seven days on two
8 occasions. And that's at least what Nedzad told me.
9 Q. Did you yourself use the system during 1993 or in 1994?
10 A. No. I did not use the system. I wasn't trained to do it. And I
11 couldn't use it.
12 Q. Did you use it -- when I say "use it," and I guess I should
13 qualify when I say "use," did you take messages to Ahmetovic or the other
14 persons he trained to transmit the messages for you?
15 A. In 1995, I think I sent a few messages using this system.
16 Q. And in 1993, could you tell us whether or not - if you know - what
17 places were contacted via this package communication system. In other
18 words, was it Tuzla, Sarajevo, or any other part of the country?
19 A. As far as I know today, and as far as I knew then, it was mostly
20 contacts with Tuzla that were established through this package system from
21 its arrival.
22 Q. My next question is with respect to persons who had access to the
23 system. And by that, I mean persons who were able to give messages to the
24 operator to communicate messages for them. Could you tell us whether or
25 not any of the individuals in Srebrenica was able to use the system? Any
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 officials, or anyone, for that matter?
2 A. After the demilitarisation and in 1994 and 1995, this system was
3 used by the civilian authorities in Srebrenica and their organs, as well
4 as by the military organs. I'm not aware whether this centre was under
5 somebody's control and, if so, whose. I know that when they attempted to
6 establish the municipal court in Srebrenica through the president of War
7 Presidency, they used to send in certain questions and receive a response
8 from Sarajevo.
9 In addition to that, the president of the War Presidency used this
10 system in order to inform the state organs in Bosnia-Herzegovina about the
11 situation which existed in Srebrenica.
12 Q. You also mentioned that the military organ authority would use it.
13 Do you know who in the military would use the system?
14 A. I'm not aware that that existed until 1995, when the 28th Division
15 was established. From that time on, I knew that the organs of the 28th
16 Division in Srebrenica used the system.
17 Q. All right. With respect to the 28th Division, without giving them
18 a name per se, did any members of the Territorial Defence, if that's what
19 you knew it to be during 1992 and 1993, did any of those members use the
21 A. I'm not aware of that.
22 Q. With respect to the PTT building --
23 MS. RICHARDSON: I'm all done with this document. If the usher
24 could take it from the witness, I would much appreciate it.
25 Q. Regarding the PTT building, could you tell us what organisations
1 or which individuals used this building?
2 A. The PTT building housed the service for communications and
3 information headed by Hamed Alic. Members of this service are the people
4 mentioned in the list. In addition to that, Nijaz Masic with another girl
5 was there. I think that the girl's name was Elvedina Jamakovic. Their
6 job was to collect statements of the deported residents from Bratunac
7 municipality and nearby villages. They started doing this in June and
8 July of 1992.
9 These people had been expelled and suffered terrible tragedies.
10 These two people collected statements from the deportees, and these
11 statements, I assume, were to be used later as a testimony of the events
12 taking place in Srebrenica.
13 Q. And anyone else? Did any other organisations?
14 A. Yes. As early as March, 1993, when the UNPROFOR commander for
15 Bosnia-Herzegovina, General Morillon, arrived in Srebrenica, he housed his
16 staff in the PTT building. Shortly thereafter, observers of the UN
17 arrived. They also had their seat in the PTT building. And after the
18 demilitarisation, the civilian police of the UN, if that's what it was
19 called, was also housed in the PTT building.
20 Q. And in the information centre, could you tell us which
21 organisations, if any, or individuals, were located in the information
23 A. The centre for information housed only the IC-745 equipment, which
24 was used by the radio ham operators of the Srebrenica radio club, and
25 their main task was to reestablish the broken lines.
1 Q. When you say "reestablish the broken lines," what do you mean?
2 JUDGE AGIUS: I think he explained that yesterday. If you think
3 he hasn't, you might as well go on.
4 MS. RICHARDSON:
5 Q. Just briefly. If you did explain it yesterday, if you could just
6 briefly recap exactly what you mean by that.
7 A. Yes. In the first few months - meaning until August of 1992 - we
8 mostly only collected information about certain individuals who had been
9 deported from Bratunac to Tuzla. Perhaps as early as August or September
10 and onwards, the radio station was also used for establishing contact with
11 various persons. Civilians could come to the radio club in Srebrenica and
12 sit by the radio ham operators whereas their family members who were in
13 Tuzla or elsewhere could go to the local radio club where they could
14 establish communication with their family members in Srebrenica.
15 Q. My question specifically is, with respect to -- when you say -- so
16 the broken lines is not cables. We're not talking about cables, we're
17 talking about communication between relatives, so that we're clear?
18 A. That's right.
19 Q. Thank you. And how many persons worked in the information centre?
20 A. Initially only Abid Zukic worked there. And later on, starting in
21 September and October of 1992, there was another girl working with him. I
22 can't remember her first and last name.
23 Then after the demilitarisation, there was a group of young people
24 there as well who had been trained in 1993 to use the radio equipment.
25 And they worked there as well.
1 Q. I would like to next move to the subject matter of Hamed Alic and
2 specifically his duties. Did he supervise yourself and the other persons
3 who worked in the PTT building?
4 A. Yes. Hamed supervised our work.
5 Q. Did he also supervise the individuals who worked in the
6 information centre?
7 A. No. He wasn't tasked with supervising these people. That was not
8 within his competencies, no.
9 Q. Could you tell us, what were his competencies?
10 A. As I understood it at that time, Hamed Alic was a man in charge of
11 the post office in Bratunac. I think that he was put up there in that
12 building because he had nowhere else to go, and also so that he could
13 supervise how the telephone exchange and all the other equipment was used.
14 At the time people expected that the war would be over soon and they
15 thought that in order to protect the equipment -- they thought that it was
16 important to protect the equipment so that it could be used later.
17 After that, Hamed supervised the work of the people mentioned in
18 the list. Sometime after, there was a power outage in the PTT building, I
19 told you that we had a small generator and Hamed supervised the people
20 operating the generator.
21 In late 1993 it occurred to him that we could build the mini power
22 plant that I mentioned yesterday, and once it was done, he also supervised
23 the work of the power plant, or rather, the work of the people servicing
24 the power plant.
25 Q. Were there, in addition to the ones you just mentioned, the
1 operators and the girl who took information, did anyone else have any
2 duties with respect to documenting the events of Srebrenica?
3 MR. JONES: One moment, Your Honour. Yesterday my learned friend
4 referred to duties on a couple of occasions and the witness never adopted
5 the expression "duties." He would refer to "activities," and unless and
6 until the witness is comfortable using the word "duties," I would prefer
7 that my learned friend would refer to "activities."
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Point taken, and I think he is right.
9 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, we can ask the witness as well --
10 JUDGE AGIUS: It doesn't really make much difference at the end of
11 the day, but let's stick to the phraseology which was used yesterday.
12 Thank you.
13 MS. RICHARDSON:
14 Q. Mr. Becirovic, my question, I will rephrase it: Did anyone
15 undertake activities or perform any action in Srebrenica regarding the
16 documentation of the events that were occurring in and around Srebrenica,
17 other than the recording -- other than the messages being sent?
18 A. Your Honours, I've mentioned that these activities were conducted
19 by Nijaz Masic [Realtime transcript read in error "Mustafic"] and the
20 girl. In addition to the two of them, later on, in 1992, there were
21 another two people there who had an amateur camera and recorded the
22 footage of destruction in the town and nearby villages. They also
23 recorded the looting that had taken place when the Serbs left the town
25 For example, in the Jadar complex, all the machinery and all other
1 equipment had been looted. So they recorded this footage with their
2 amateur camera, intending to use it as evidence of the events that had
3 taken place.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. One moment. I'm sorry to interrupt you,
5 Ms. Richardson, but there is a little bit of confusion in the transcript
6 here. It seems that part of what is attributed to you was said by
7 Mr. Jones, the rest was said by myself and not by you. And we're talking
8 of lines 15 to 17 of the previous page. After I said, "Point taken and I
9 think he is right," the words, "It doesn't really make much difference at
10 the end of the day but let's stick to the phraseology which was used
11 yesterday, thank you," were used by me and not by you; and similarly, I
12 think you didn't say the words, "We can ask the witness as well," so for
13 the record, although these words are being attributed to you, they were --
14 they are not actually yours.
15 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: You may proceed. Thank you.
17 MS. RICHARDSON:
18 Q. The individuals that you -- excuse me. The individuals that you
19 mentioned who videotaped certain events in Srebrenica, did they work with
20 Hamed Alic as well?
21 A. In view of the type of work they conducted, yes, they did work
22 with Hamed Alic.
23 Q. At this time I would like the usher's assistance in showing a
24 document to the witness, and that will be Prosecution's Exhibit 79.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Vidovic.
1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, just a correction of
2 the transcript. When the witness spoke about the persons who worked in
3 the PTT building, he mentioned Nijaz Masic, and not Nijaz Mustafic. Both
4 persons exist, so I am saying this just to avoid the confusion.
5 Am I right, sir? Am I right, Mr. Becirovic? You referred to
6 Nijaz Masic; isn't that right?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Becirovic, and I am grateful to you,
9 Madam Vidovic, for pointing that out.
10 Yes, Ms. Richardson.
11 MS. RICHARDSON:
12 Q. Mr. Becirovic, if you could take a look at that document that is
13 before you, Prosecution's Exhibit 79, and that's ERN number 0207-5814. If
14 you could take a look at it and tell the Trial Chamber whether or not you
15 recognise this document. Have you seen it before, before coming to the
16 Tribunal, to The Hague?
17 A. Your Honours, I saw this document for the first time several days
18 ago, upon my arrival in The Hague.
19 Q. And Mr. Becirovic, if you could take a look at number 8, the list
20 of persons. There are a list of persons on this document. Please take a
21 look at number 8. It states Department for Communication, Hamed Alic.
22 Does that accurately reflect what you know about Mr. Alic, that he
23 was, in fact, in the department for communication and he was the head of
24 that department?
25 A. I'm not aware that Hamed Alic was ever a member of the
1 communication department. I'm trying to say that I didn't know that at
2 this time, September of 1992, there was any such establishment as this
3 department. As far as I know, Hamed Alic was in charge of the service for
4 communications and information, which as far as I was aware, was --
5 existed within the War Presidency.
6 Q. I would like to bring your attention to number 6, the 6th person
7 on the list. Do you know that person, Ramiz Becirovic?
8 A. Yes, I'm familiar with this name and last name. This is my
10 Q. And was your brother in Srebrenica during the period of 1992?
11 A. As far as I can remember, Ramiz arrived in Srebrenica in October,
12 in the second half of October of 1992. And up until then, he was in the
13 Suceska local commune.
14 Q. All right. And was he a member of either the War Presidency or
15 the Territorial Defence?
16 A. He was a member of the Territorial Defence in Srebrenica.
17 Q. Do you recognise any other names on this list, other than the 6th
18 and 8?
19 A. Actually, I know most of these people, most of the people from the
20 list. I see the name Nijaz Masic mentioned here, which is the same person
21 who was gathering or collecting statements from the victims in the PTT
22 building. I know other persons as well.
23 Q. All right. Who else do you know on the list?
24 A. I know all of the persons on the list. I know some better, some
25 less. The person listed under 7, I knew the least.
1 Q. And were you familiar with Dr. -- with Nedret Mujkanovic?
2 A. Yes. I met him in 1992 when he arrived from Tuzla in Srebrenica.
3 This is a physician who did a lot to help the ill and the wounded in
4 Srebrenica deal with their injuries.
5 Q. Other than the ones you have already told us about, the others
6 that you do know that are on the list, were they members of the
7 Territorial Defence?
8 A. I cannot say either way. I knew some people even before 1992. I
9 got to know some people better after 1993, or after the demilitarisation,
10 therefore, I cannot claim that all of them were members of the Territorial
12 Q. Thank you.
13 MS. RICHARDSON: Next I would like the witness to be shown
14 Prosecution Exhibit 100. And this document is also presently on Sanction.
15 Q. If you could -- Mr. Becirovic, could you take a look at that
16 document, Prosecution's Exhibit 100. It's ERN 0180-1586 to 1587. This
17 document is dated July 2nd, 1992. And could you tell the Trial Chamber
18 whether you have seen this document before.
19 A. Could you please repeat the number, the ERN number, because the
20 number that you gave us, I can't find it.
21 Q. Oh, actually, the ERN probably corresponds to the English, so I
22 will give you the --
23 MS. RICHARDSON: Just a moment, Your Honour. We're trying to sort
24 out the ERN number at the moment.
25 Q. The document that you are looking at now, Prosecution Exhibit 100,
1 let's try to determine whether we're both looking at the same time.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. What I suggest, just to make -- to put our
3 minds at rest on this: Usher, could you please put on the ELMO for a few
4 seconds the document in B/C/S that the witness has in front of him. No --
5 MS. RICHARDSON: If you turn to the next document.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: -- it's not this page for sure. It's not the first
7 one. It's not this one.
8 MS. RICHARDSON: The next page, if you turn again.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: No, it's not that one. It's not that one.
10 MS. RICHARDSON: Still not the same one.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: It's not that one either. Yes, I think it's this
13 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Vidovic.
15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this document that was
16 given to us as P100, and it seems not just to us but to all of you,
17 actually consists of a number of documents, each of them containing a P
18 number. I believe this would lead to a lot of confusion later on,
19 therefore I asked the Prosecutor to give us the number of this document,
20 11/92, dated the 7th of July, 1992. Because this will create problems for
21 all of us. P100 is an entirely different document from the one you are
22 trying to show the witness.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, you are one hundred per cent right again and I
24 am grateful to you, Ms. Vidovic.
25 The other problem is that, looking at this particular page, I see
1 two numbers, top right corner. One is 0100159, and it looks likes 6.
2 Then just below -- now I lost it. And below the stamp, always on the top
3 right corner, then there is 02066405. So first of all, I think we need to
4 know what we are talking about, which is -- we need to have the correct
5 number of this document and -- by reference to the ERN number.
6 MS. RICHARDSON: Pardon me. I will do the best I can by way of an
7 explanation. It appears this document may have been ERN stamped twice.
8 So what I propose is that I just read out the ERN number and we may have
9 to give this another -- at this point I am advised we cannot give it
10 another ERN number.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: It has already been given a number.
12 MS. RICHARDSON: Let me just read out the ERN number, Your Honour.
13 It's 0206-6405.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Yes, Madam Vidovic.
15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if I can be of
16 assistance, our case manager says that this is P270.
17 MS. RICHARDSON: I am advised it is also P100. I'm not sure where
18 the confusion is.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: It's a case of a dual personality here. Typical of
20 international law. Anyway, we now know and the witness knows precisely
21 which document you are being referred to. So you can actually follow the
22 question that will be put to you by Ms. Richardson.
23 Can you put that page on the desk in front of the witness, please,
24 Madam Usher, and thank you for your assistance.
25 MS. RICHARDSON: And this document is also in Sanction, Your
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
2 Q. Mr. Becirovic, can you take a look at this document and tell the
3 Trial Chamber whether or not you've scene this document before.
4 A. Your Honour, I saw this document a few days ago for the first
6 Q. My first question to you, Mr. Becirovic, is whether or not, from
7 looking at the document, could you tell how this document -- whether or
8 not this document was transmitted and how that was done.
9 A. I suppose, judging by the telephone number in the left upper
10 corner, that this document may have been faxed through. I'm not claiming
11 that it was since, during this period of time, I was not in a position to
12 -- to be in the room where the fax machine was. And I believe that at
13 that time the telephone lines were still operating and one could use them
14 to talk to Tuzla.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. A matter of clarification. I am now
16 following the English version of the text, and looking at line 9 and 10 of
17 page 23, it seems that the telephone number that the witness refers to,
18 according to the transcript, is in the left upper corner.
19 Now, looking at this document, there is no telephone number on the
20 top left upper corner. There is what seems to me a telephone number, the
21 bottom left corner. I stand to be corrected on this, but I think it needs
22 to be clarified. Is it top left or bottom left?
23 MS. RICHARDSON: Well, Your Honour, on the B/C/S document it is
24 the top left, and --
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, but why doesn't it appear --
1 MS. RICHARDSON: Unfortunately, it appears to be a translation
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Can I see again the B/C/S version, please. Can you
4 put it on the ELMO for a while, please. All right. That is...
5 Case assistant, can you zoom-in that number, please, for us a
6 little bit. Top. Yes. 886250, yes. Okay. Now can we see the English
7 version, please. It doesn't -- for the record, therefore, we must make it
8 clear that unless it is hidden behind -- this is again already zoomed-in a
9 little bit. Can we see it in its original format? Let me see if it's...
10 You can give it back to the witness. Now I would like to see the
11 English version on the ELMO. I know it is on Sanction, but on Sanction it
12 has already been...
13 Now it's the full page. Now the full page, and the number doesn't
14 appear on the English version.
15 So for the record, that is being stated by the Trial Chamber for
16 all intents and purposes.
17 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I should submit at this point that
18 we will do another translation of this document and resubmit it, for the
20 JUDGE AGIUS: All right, okay. It's important because it -- the
21 witness has mentioned that, in his opinion, this must have been or
22 probably was faxed.
23 MS. RICHARDSON:
24 Q. Mr. Becirovic, where was the fax machine in July of 1992?
25 A. In the PTT building.
1 Q. And was the telephone lines working in July?
2 A. Could you please repeat the month? Did you say June or July?
3 Q. July of 1992. At least the early part of 1992.
4 A. I can't be sure of the date when the telephone lines were finally
5 interrupted. As far as I can remember, it was either late June or early
6 July, but I'm not sure.
7 Q. All right. If you take a look at this document, the fourth
8 paragraph down, that talks about communication, communication and
9 information. It states that, "At the same meeting the communication and
10 information service was formed which should cover the municipality of
11 Srebrenica and Bratunac. This decision was made because the forces of
12 Bratunac TO did not have any possibilities to inform the public." The
13 next line states: "Hamed Alic was appointed the chief of this service."
14 "The service has the task to ensure communications with BH TO
15 staff and regional staff and ensure the rest of the time with families of
16 the TO combat and other citizens."
17 Is this accurate? When I say "this," I mean with respect to the
18 communication of -- the communication between families that the
19 communication and information service did, in fact, perform.
20 MR. JONES: Your Honour, if I may.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
22 MR. JONES: I'm concerned that the line of questioning pursued by
23 my learned friend is going to lead to confusion and if not might even
24 mislead this witness. He has said at least twice that as far as he knows
25 Hamed Alic was performing a service of communication information service
1 which was within the War Presidency. And he has been asked that several
2 times and the last time he was shown a document he said I'm not aware that
3 Hamed Alic was ever a member of the communication department --
4 JUDGE AGIUS: There was such department actually.
5 MR. JONES: -- and it was within the War Presidency. Now, I don't
6 know if my learned friend is trying to get him to change that answer by
7 showing him a series of documents, but in any event, even if we look at
8 this document, it refers to a War Presidency being formed, it refers to
9 various people having various functions in the War Presidency, and it is
10 certainly not clear -- or at least in our submission it is clear that that
11 communication information service is the one within the War Presidency.
12 Now the problem with the way my learned friend is putting the
13 question is she's simply asking was the communication service -- but we
14 have to be clear at least whether we're talking about the War Presidency
15 communication service or something else.
16 And in any event, this witness has given clear answers on several
17 occasions and seems as if it's a futile exercise to show him document
18 after document and ask him the same question about whether he knows the
19 communication service was established. He's answered there was one, it
20 was within the War Presidency. So I really don't see where this is going
21 and I do fear that it may lead to confusion at this rate.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, let's rephrase the question, Ms. Richardson,
23 putting it in a neutral form, referring to what is described in this
24 document as the communications and information service, irrespective of
25 whether it was in the Territorial Staff or whether it was in the Operation
1 Staff or whether it was in the War Presidency.
2 Assuming that there was such a communication and information
3 service, would you agree, Mr. Becirovic, that these were the terms of
4 reference of that service?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The service for communications and
6 information existed and, if I told you what the essence of its work was
7 maybe I could help you resolve this problem. What I would like to say is
8 that the essence of the work of the service in 1992 and 1993 was to send
9 information on the families or family members who had been deported or
10 expelled from the municipality of Bratunac to those who resided in the
11 territory of Tuzla.
12 And also the other two activities that I mentioned a while ago,
13 that was gathering statements from the eye witnesses and recording, by way
14 of an amateur camera, the details depicting the destruction of the town by
15 the Serbian forces at the moment when they were leaving Srebrenica.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Are you both happy with this, Mr. Jones and
17 Ms. Richardson?
18 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I'm happy with that answer.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: And you, Mr. Jones.
20 MR. JONES: I'm happy with all of the witness's answers to date.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Let's proceed.
22 MS. RICHARDSON: I would like the witness to be shown another
23 document, Prosecution's Exhibit 117, and that is ERN 01239505 to 01295. I
24 think it is a one-page document.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, your question.
1 MS. RICHARDSON:
2 Q. Mr. Becirovic, have you seen this -- Mr. Becirovic, if you take a
3 look at this document, could you tell the Trial Chamber whether you've
4 seen this document before.
5 A. Your Honour, I saw this document for the first time a few days
6 ago, here in The Hague. I was not familiar with its contents before that.
7 Q. Could you tell us whether you're familiar with Captain Velid
9 A. I met Velid Sabic for the first time in August 1992, I believe.
10 We didn't talk. We just met passing by each other. After that, he went
11 to Tuzla, and after that I didn't see him until after 1995, and even after
12 then, I only saw him rarely.
13 Q. Where was he prior to coming to Srebrenica, if you know?
14 A. He was in the area of Konjevic Polje, residing in the village
15 where he was born.
16 Q. And what municipality is Konjevic Polje located in?
17 A. This is the western part of Bratunac municipality that was not
18 occupied by the Serbs in April 1992.
19 Q. I would like to draw your attention to the very last paragraph of
20 this document. Just for the record, the document is dated the 16th of
21 July, 1992. The subject matter is "Decisions by the Bratunac TO Staff."
22 I will just read for you the relevant portion I would like you to
24 "Because objective circumstances are such that the Bratunac TO is
25 unable to keep the public informed, it is agreed --"
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Vidovic.
2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honour. The
3 Prosecutor interprets the document wrongly. It doesn't say that this was
4 passed by the Bratunac TO. This was a meeting of the Crisis Staff. The
5 Crisis Staff and the TO Staff are two different things.
6 MS. RICHARDSON: I believe I -- unless the translation is
7 incorrect, I said "the subject," and I'm reading from the document in
8 English, "Decision by the Bratunac TO Staff." So unless there is a --
9 there is some kind of misunderstanding by the Defence I'm not sure what
10 the Defence is referring to.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: What I have in the transcript here, at line 21, 22,
12 the subject is -- reporting what you said, "The subject matter is
13 'Decisions by the Bratunac TO Staff.'"
14 Now, the text -- the English version of the document that I am
15 seeing, that I have, at the top, as a title -- not as a title. At the top
16 it has "Republic of Bosnia-Hercegovina, Bratunac Municipality Territorial
17 Defence Staff, number 5/92." If that is wrong in translation of what
18 there is in the Serbo-Croat version, please point that out. I don't have
19 the Serbo-Croat version in front of me. Perhaps you could put it on the
20 ELMO a little bit, Usher, please.
21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Maybe it would be
22 best for the witness to look at the text, the first paragraph, where it
23 says: "At the meeting of the Crisis Staff of the Bratunac TO, which was
24 held on the 16th of July, 1992/3, decisions were adopted." Maybe it would
25 be best for the witness to look at the document, because in this case, as
1 well as in the other cases, the Prosecutor is trying to pull out sentences
2 from the context of the document.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: What is the meaning of "Predmet"?
4 THE WITNESS? [Interpretation] "Subject."
5 JUDGE AGIUS: So it seems to me, looking at the document, looking
6 at the document, that at the top it says: Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina
7 -- I can't read it -- "Opstinski Stab." It's -- "stab" is "staff"
8 definitely. "TO Bratunac." So I don't know how to translate that because
9 it is not my responsibility in any case. Then the subject is definitely
10 the "Odluke Staba Bratunac." So the subject matter -- perhaps someone can
11 translate. What does the title -- how would the title read out in
13 THE INTERPRETER: "Subject: Decisions of the staff of the
14 Territorial Defence of Bratunac."
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. And the top part is Republic of
16 Bosnia-Herzegovina. And what is the second line, please?
17 THE INTERPRETER: "Municipal Staff of the Territorial Defence of
19 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So now we can put the English version
20 again on Sanction, please. Yes. I think --
21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the essence of my
22 objection was the following: The Prosecution is saying that at the
23 meeting of the staff of the TO Bratunac, the decisions were passed.
24 However, it transpires from the first part of the text that these
25 decisions were adopted at the meeting of the Crisis Staff. And this is
1 the essence of my objection. It is summed up with the first sentence,
2 which has been interpreted wrongly by the Prosecutor and the Prosecutor
3 then used his -- her wrong interpretation to put her question to the
5 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Yes. There is no doubt that the first
6 line of the substantive part of the document does say three decisions were
7 adopted at a meeting of the Bratunac TO Crisis Staff.
8 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I don't dispute that that is what it
9 says. I simply am using a document, going to the relevant portions so we
10 will be here --
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go straight to the question.
12 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm making it clear that supposedly the decisions
14 that were taken here were taken according to the document by the -- at a
15 meeting of the Bratunac TO Crisis Staff. Let's proceed. Could you repeat
16 your question now because we have lost track of it and you hadn't even
17 started asking the question, as such.
18 MS. RICHARDSON: I believe when I -- prior to the objection I --
19 could I have a moment, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. You hadn't started the...
21 MS. RICHARDSON:
22 Q. If you could take a look at the last paragraph. That's the
23 portion of the document that I will ask you a question about.
24 Now, this document states that communication, there were
25 communication problems -- well, let me just read it, again, so that there
1 is no misunderstanding. I'm reading from the English version: "Because
2 objective circumstances are such that the Bratunac TO is unable to keep
3 the public informed, it was agreed previously that all tasks involving
4 communications and information will be taken over by the service in
6 It goes on to state: "Hamed Alic was appointed chief of the
7 service for communication and information."
8 Mr. Becirovic, my question to you is: During this period of time,
9 I believe you testified that a number of people -- that a number of
10 Muslims had been deported from Bratunac. Is that correct?
11 A. That is correct.
12 Q. And so does this paragraph reflect -- well, and as a result of
13 that deportation, that it was difficult -- communication was difficult in
14 that area?
15 JUDGE AGIUS: We spent an hour yesterday on this.
16 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I don't have any other questions
17 with respect to this document.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: He explained how they moved from gathering
19 intelligence on to something completely different, which is precisely what
20 you're referring to.
21 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I can move to another document.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, okay.
23 MS. RICHARDSON: Prosecution's Exhibit 9, if that could be shown
24 to the witness.
25 Q. All right. At this time, Mr. Becirovic, I would like you to take
1 a look at the document before you, Prosecution's Exhibit 9, ERN number
2 01239519 - 0123-9520 and ask you if you have seen this document before and
3 are you familiar with it?
4 A. Your Honour, I saw this document a few days ago here in The Hague,
5 for the first time.
6 Q. All right. With respect to this document, which is -- I would
7 just like to read the date, which is dated 15th of October, 1992, Republic
8 -- top left-hand corner, Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, Srebrenica armed
9 forces staff. It also says "strictly confidential."
10 I would like to draw your attention to the third portion, what is
11 numbered number 3, the third section of this document, which states: "The
12 following independent units of the combat and support arms shall be
14 C of that subsection states "communication platoon."
15 My question to you is whether or not you were aware that a
16 communication platoon had been formed in Srebrenica.
17 MR. JONES: One thing: I would prefer if my learned friend would
18 say are you aware of whether a platoon was formed. We don't presuppose
19 that anything that is purportedly occurring in this document actually
20 occurred. In other words, that can't be accepted as a fact that it was --
21 that it was established and the only question is whether this witness
22 knows about it, is he aware whether that happened at all.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I think that would be a more proper question.
24 Again, it doesn't change much, but at the end of the day it is a proper
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 MS. RICHARDSON: I can rephrase, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
3 MS. RICHARDSON:
4 Q. Mr. Becirovic, do you know if a communication platoon was formed
5 in Srebrenica?
6 A. During this period of time, which is referred to within this
7 document, it wasn't, as far as I know. There was no communications
8 platoon. Some units were formed after the demilitarisation in 1994, 1995.
9 Up to then, there were only groups of people that people referred to as
10 people from Potocari, Naser's men, people from Suceska or men from
11 Suceska. And if I may note that if, in this period, if there had been so
12 many units, platoons and brigades, the genocide that happened in 1995
13 would never have happened.
14 Q. With respect to the communications, the individuals who worked in
15 communication, at around this time period, how many were there?
16 A. I'm not aware of any other group of people who would be performing
17 the communications tasks, save for my group, the group that I was a member
18 of during that period of time.
19 Q. All right.
20 MS. RICHARDSON: I don't have any other questions, Your Honour,
21 with respect to this document. Thank you, Mr. Becirovic.
22 All right. Thank you. I would like to move to another subject
23 matter. Again, though, keeping in mind Mr. Hamed Alic as well.
24 Q. What instructions did you receive from Mr. Hamed Alic during 1992,
25 if any?
1 A. I did not receive any instructions from Mr. Hamed Alic. At that
2 time I had in mind what he had been through in 1992 and because of the
3 fact that he slept in the PTT, that I could tell him what I was doing.
4 Most of his friends and family were deported to Tuzla. His daughter was
5 in Zivinice. So all that I did, Hamed Alic knew what it was and he never
6 asked me to do anything else other than what I was doing anyway.
7 Q. Did he -- did, at any point in time, did he himself come to you to
8 send any messages?
9 A. Already in late July, 1992, after the telephone lines were broken
10 down, and afterwards a bit more often, the information was drafted mostly
11 for the public, for the media and television of Bosnia-Herzegovina,
12 stating that the state organs are to be informed of the events. And in
13 the previously described manner in which I communicated with the ham
14 operators, these messages were sent. So I would read the text into the
15 microphone and the operator in Sarajevo would either write it down or tape
16 it, and then this information was then transmitted through Murat Efendic
17 who was a member of the War Presidency of Srebrenica but lived in
18 Sarajevo. This information was delivered to the Presidency and state
19 organs of Bosnia and Herzegovina as well as radio and television of Bosnia
20 and Herzegovina.
21 Q. So, Mr. Hamed Alic brought you messages to communicate to
22 Mr. Efendic in Sarajevo?
23 A. Yes, that's right.
24 Q. And this is while you were being supervised by him?
25 A. Yes. While he was in Srebrenica. And I think that in December of
1 1992 he left Srebrenica.
2 Q. How many times did he bring messages to you?
3 A. As I've said, initially that was seldom. Perhaps one or two
4 messages a week. However, that actually depended on the situation and to
5 what extent the Serbs attacked and how aggressively. If we had a very
6 intense infantry or artillery attack and if we had a lot of wounded and
7 injured, then information would be sent on a daily basis.
8 I would like to especially highlight January, February and March
9 of 1993 when there was hunger in Srebrenica, when people were dying of
10 hunger. At that time we tried to send a message about what was going on
11 in Srebrenica, about people dying there. We wanted this information to
12 reach the world so that the world could help us. In that period of time,
13 we sent messages perhaps even more often, once or twice a day, depending
14 on the situation.
15 Q. And when you say "that period of time," could you -- well, could
16 you just give us the range of months in 1992 that he gave you messages.
17 Was it from July until he left in December, or after that? Or in August?
18 A. I've mentioned that this was from late July, then throughout
19 August, September, October, and November, and I think that he left
20 Srebrenica in December.
21 Q. Where did he get this -- these messages? From where did he get
22 the information that he brought to you?
23 A. I'm not sure whether somebody brought the information to him or
24 whether he wrote it himself. At the time, I didn't think it necessary for
25 me to know the origin of the information. I felt it my duty to transmit
1 the information to the media.
2 MR. JONES: Your Honour, may I just on one matter. The
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Jones.
5 MR. JONES: In English, at lines 3 to 4, the witness said -- he
6 referred to what extent the Serbs attacked and how aggressively, and he
7 said, "If we had a very intense infantry or artillery attack..." I
8 understand in Bosnian it's clear that that means obviously if we received,
9 if we were the subjects of an attack, that this is referring to attacks by
10 Serbs exclusively. From the English it may be ambiguous, but that is
11 certainly our understanding from the Bosnian, and it probably is clear
12 from the context since it is referring to Serb attacks, but just lest
13 there be any doubt, we're referring to Serb attacks.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: I think so, actually, but thank you for your remark,
15 but I don't think we need to do anything about it. Thanks.
16 Let's proceed, Ms. Richardson.
17 MS. RICHARDSON:
18 Q. What was the subject matter of these messages that you received
19 from Mr. Hamed Alic?
20 A. As I've said, the subject matter was the very difficult
21 epidemiological situation: Hunger, lack of proper sanitary facilities,
22 various illnesses that were rampant at the time. That was the essence of
23 the information.
24 Q. Did anyone else bring you -- well, I just have one more question
25 with respect to Mr. Hamed Alic. Did he bring you -- the messages, were
1 they written down or were they oral messages that he gave you?
2 A. He brought messages written down, on a paper. He did not relate
3 them to me verbally.
4 Q. And did you only send messages from him to Sarajevo or did you
5 send messages from him to other places?
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Vidovic.
7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honour. The
8 Prosecutor ought to ask or specify the period of time, because it is
9 obvious, based on the testimony of this witness, that the situation
10 changed from one period to another. Therefore, the Prosecutor ought to
11 specify the time frame.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.
13 MS. RICHARDSON: I think there is -- I think the witness needs to
14 answer my first question and then we can -- I think I had asked him
15 whether or not...
16 I see what the point that the Defence is making, so I can ask --
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, definitely. I think it is fair enough, so we
18 need to establish that. In any case it can be established either way, I
19 think. Because the witness can answer your question and then you can
20 proceed with asking him, Could you specify or put these in a time frame.
21 Perhaps now that he has heard the exchange, he can answer the question by
22 referring to specific time periods or time frames.
23 MS. RICHARDSON:
24 Q. Do you understand the question, Mr. Becirovic?
25 A. Yes, I do understand.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: So let's go ahead. Let's proceed.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Initially, perhaps up until December
3 of 1992, the information mostly went to Sarajevo. Less often to other
4 destinations. However, after December of 1992, to a smaller extent, the
5 information would also be sent to Tuzla for the media, for the radio and
6 television of the Tuzla canton, and also to the ham operators.
7 In December and then in January, February and March of 1993 I
8 established contact with ham radio operators in Zagreb, where journalists
9 from some Western newspapers would assemble occasionally and gather
10 information. And sometimes, when the situation was rather critical in
11 certain other battlefields in Bosnia and Herzegovina, there would be
12 perhaps a group of CNN journalists sitting in Sarajevo and requesting
13 information about what was going on in Srebrenica. I think it is
14 important to state here that in February of 1993, I believe, a photo
15 journalist from Germany, Phillip von Recklinghausen, came to Srebrenica
16 from Tuzla and with his camera he recorded many important things, in my
17 view, and this was a testament to what was going on.
18 In addition to him, there was also a BBC crew with Tony Birtley
19 there. Tony Birtley I think spent in Srebrenica more than a month. He
20 was wounded there by shrapnel off a shell fired by the Serbs. He was
21 evacuated together with another military observer, UN military observer,
22 who had been wounded. I believe that the observer's name was McDonald.
23 There they we're evacuated via Split.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Judge Eser.
25 JUDGE ESER: I have a question of clarification. I think you have
1 been asked whether you transmitted certain messages which have been given
2 to you from Hamed Alic to other places than Sarajevo. Now you told us
3 about what has been transmitted in January, February, March, but a couple
4 of minutes ago you had told us that Hamed Alic had left, according to your
5 knowledge, Srebrenica in December.
6 Now, did he still, even from the outside, give you messages to be
7 sent somewhere or when you had to send messages after December, they have
8 been given to you to be transmitted by other persons?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise for giving a lengthy
10 answer to things that may perhaps be asked only later. While Hamed Alic
11 was in Srebrenica, as I've mentioned, the information I received from him
12 I mostly sent to Sarajevo.
13 In November of 1992, or perhaps several weeks before Hamed Alic
14 left Srebrenica, there were also some messages that went to Tuzla.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Richardson.
16 MS. RICHARDSON:
17 Q. When did you start sending messages to Mr. Efendic in Sarajevo?
18 Do you remember the time? The month?
19 A. I think that that was in August of 1992. I can't remember
20 precisely. Perhaps a bit earlier, perhaps a bit later, but if it was
21 earlier, then not much earlier. Perhaps in late July or early August.
22 Q. And when you relayed messages to Mr. Efendic, did you relay them
23 to him directly or did you first relay them to an operator who then
24 relayed them to Mr. Efendic? Could you just tell us how this worked.
25 A. There were several locations in Sarajevo where Murat could receive
1 information. Therefore, there were several radio clubs. He mostly sat
2 next to the radio ham operators receiving information. I think that in a
3 radio club called 4 SGS, there was an operator --
4 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't hear the name.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- and in that location Murat was
6 not needed because the two of them knew each other really well and this
7 operator could keep the information and give it to Murat once he saw him.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
9 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I think this is a good time to take
10 a break.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. We'll have a 25-minute break. Thank you.
12 --- Recess taken at 10.45 a.m.
13 --- On resuming at 11.20 a.m.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Yes, Ms. Richardson.
15 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour. Thank you, Your Honour.
16 Just before I resume my questioning, I understand that the Prosecution
17 will be translating the -- Prosecution's Exhibit 100, so that we will
18 provide a translation to that entire exhibit, Your Honour, at some point.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
20 MS. RICHARDSON: May I continue?
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes.
22 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you.
23 Q. Mr. Becirovic, prior to the break, you were testifying about the
24 communications that you had with Mr. Efendic in 1992. Did you also have
25 communications with him in 1993 as well? When I say "communication," by
1 that I mean, were you also sending him messages?
2 A. Yes. I continued communicating or sending messages to Murat
3 Efendic in 1993 and 1994 and 1995.
4 Q. And did you send messages as well to Tuzla? Messages -- and let
5 me be clear, messages from Mr. Hamed Alic or messages that you yourself
7 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. Because let's clarify this first. In
8 answering the previous question, namely in stating that you continued
9 communicating or sending messages to Murat Efendic in 1993, 1994, 1995, on
10 whose behalf were you sending these messages? On your own behalf or on
11 behalf of someone else? Certainly it can't be this Hamed Alic now,
12 because Hamed Alic is, according to you, left more or less on December or
13 just after December 1992.
14 So these continued messages to Efendic, who -- on whose behalf
15 were they in 1993, 1994, 1995?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the messages I sent
17 were sent on behalf of the War Presidency of Srebrenica municipality.
18 Most of these documents were signed by the service for communications and
19 information, which was under the War Presidency.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. So your next question then, which is a
21 repetition of a previous question, actually. I mean, I don't think it
22 needs to be put, but --
23 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, actually now that I have -- memory
24 serves me, I think he may have already answered that.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, he already answered that question.
1 MS. RICHARDSON:
2 Q. You mentioned or you testified that Mr. Hamed Alic left in
3 December. Could you tell us what happened after he left. Was anyone else
4 assigned to his position as far as you know?
5 A. No. Nobody else was appointed to his position. Immediately upon
6 his departure, for a week or two we had a vacuum, a gap in sending
7 messages. Although Hamed Alic, on his departure, said that I could write
8 those messages instead of him. However, later on, in agreement with the
9 precedent of the War Presidency, I continued writing messages and sending
10 them on behalf of the War Presidency of Srebrenica municipality.
11 Q. When did you have this agreement or discussion with the War
12 Presidency about your taking over -- or your continuing to send messages,
13 excuse me?
14 A. It was not an official meeting where somebody or I myself were
15 supposed to be appointed to that position. It's just that at one point in
16 time, president of the War Presidency came into the room where I was and
17 told me that I could write messages which would then be transmitted to the
18 public. And I did that.
19 Q. Did you receive any messages from the War Presidency to transmit
20 in 1992 or in 1993? Please tell us the date.
21 A. Naturally, if I remember well, already November and December of
22 1992 and then onwards in 1993, president of the War Presidency,
23 Mr. Hajrudin Avdic himself wrote certain messages. Those were appeals for
24 humanitarian assistance, appeals for medical aid, or any other type of
25 aid. The places which these messages were supposed to be sent to were the
1 government and the Presidency of Bosnia and Herzegovina. Frequently,
2 Mr. Avdic insisted with Murat Efendic to have this information transmitted
3 also to the UNHCR office in Sarajevo, to UNPROFOR, and sometimes, when the
4 situation was truly dramatic, he urged this information to be transmitted
5 to the Security Council of the UN as well.
6 Q. Did you receive any messages to be sent from anyone from the
8 A. No. Never. I never received any messages from the military to
9 transmit it elsewhere.
10 Q. Did you receive messages from -- did you report on any particular
11 areas, and by that I mean, did you report messages relating to specific
12 areas in Srebrenica and the surrounding villages or even in Bratunac?
13 A. I have mentioned just now that the subject of the messages, the
14 essence of the messages was to inform the local and international public
15 about the events in Srebrenica, highlighting a very grave humanitarian
16 epidemiological and any other type of circumstances, because we had a lot
17 of people who had been killed, a lot of wounded, a lot of people who were
18 ill with serious illnesses.
19 Q. And were you -- did you receive any messages from any particular
20 areas? When I say "areas," I mean in the surrounding Srebrenica and
21 Bratunac areas, from any commanders or anyone in the military forces who
22 were operating in that area?
23 A. No. I never received messages from any commanders. At the time,
24 I didn't even think that there were persons who could be referred to as
25 commanders. In my view, those were still poorly organised groups.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 I arrived at the information in the following way: Since the post
2 office building was near the hospital where the wounded arrived, as soon
3 as I saw that something was going on, I would go to the hospital, talk to
4 the wounded or to the people who had brought the wounded in, and this is
5 how I acquired information about what was going on, things that I couldn't
6 see myself or hear myself.
7 Any intense shelling launched by Serbs in the area surrounding
8 Srebrenica could also be heard in Srebrenica. Not a day would pass
9 without dozens of shells falling in Srebrenica itself.
10 Q. You mentioned previously in your testimony that there came a time
11 that Velid Sabic came to Srebrenica. Did you receive any messages from
13 A. I remember that that day when Velid Sabic was in Srebrenica the
14 Serb forces carried out a very intense artillery and later on air attack
15 in the area of Konjevic Polje. In Srebrenica, we could hear the planes
16 flying above and Velid Sabic drafted a very brief note, brought it to me
17 and asked me to transmit it to the media. I did that and this is how I
18 met Velid Sabic.
19 Q. Were you -- did you send messages in connection with any military
20 actions undertaken by the Muslim forces or by the Serb forces?
21 A. I remember some details in those notes regarding the dead, wounded
22 or the war booty, if I may say so, which was taken by the organised groups
23 of the Territorial Defence.
24 In that type of information, I was provided with details and I
25 obtained those through the wounded who had arrived in the Srebrenica
1 hospital and who told me what had happened.
2 Q. When you say "war booty," could you tell the Trial Chamber what
3 was encompassed as part of this war booty that you reported.
4 A. I could not find a better term, that's why I used the term "war
5 booty." And I was referring to the arms that these poorly organised
6 groups found in the area --
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Let him finish first. Finish what you were saying.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- in the area where they were
9 active at the time. Those were mostly infantry weapons, smaller
10 quantities of weapons and ammunition. This is the information that I got
11 from the wounded. And if I may call these actions "attacks," because at
12 that time the organised groups of Territorial Defence were the results of
13 attacks by the Serbian side. They were provoked by the attacks by the
14 Serbs. So people who were on the front lines in most cases saw that they
15 could obtain some weapons or some ammunition if they launched a counter
16 attack in which they would capture those arms. And this was the way how
17 members of the poorly organised groups of people obtained weapons and
18 ammunition. There was no logistical supply from elsewhere. In Srebrenica
19 there was no production that would be geared towards producing ammunition
20 or weapons.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Yes, Madam Vidovic.
22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, just a correction in
23 the transcript. The witness said several times a certain thing and the
24 record states "organised groups of Territorial Defence."
25 However, the witness always said "poorly organised groups of
1 Territorial Defence," and we have noticed that this word "poorly" is
2 missing from the transcript so I would kindly ask the witness to clarify
4 JUDGE AGIUS: I think I see it on several -- you see it on page
5 46, line 16. You see it before.
6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Line 22.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Again, I mean, if it is missing in one line,
8 Ms. Vidovic, it's not going to -- it's not the end of the world. So point
9 taken, but let's proceed.
10 MS. RICHARDSON:
11 Q. In addition to the war booty, was anything else -- you mentioned
12 equipment, was anything else taken or recovered following military action?
13 A. I apologise. The question has not been interpreted.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: I will repeat the question myself. And if you are
15 not receiving interpretation, let me know. All right.
16 The question is the following: "In addition to the war booty, was
17 anything else -- you mentioned equipment, was anything else taken or
18 recovered following military action?"
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As a rule, and I repeat, as a rule
20 in such situations, there was hunger in Srebrenica, and in such situations
21 civilians mostly followed the groups or side by side with the armed men
22 and they gathered food from the Serbian villages where food could be had.
23 And that's how these people obtained food. And this allowed the
24 population of Srebrenica to survive until the first convoys with
25 humanitarian aid started arriving.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
2 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour.
3 Q. Mr. Becirovic, you testified that you reported -- you spoke to
4 individuals on the front line -- excuse me, who had -- let me do this.
5 Let me pose the question to you:
6 Did you speak with individuals who had participated in any of the
7 military action? And by that I specifically would ask you this question
8 with regards to members of the Territorial Defence, soldiers, forces,
9 anyone who had actually participated.
10 A. When you say a member of the Territorial Defence, I would like to
11 clarify something. I'm referring to these poorly-organised groups that
12 were on the lines. There were people that I talked to who were members of
13 the Territorial Defence. All of them, in a certain way, suffered
14 wounding. They arrived in the hospital and I talked to them.
15 There were also civilians who had been wounded by the shells
16 launched from the Serbian positions and they arrived in the hospital and
17 they could tell me how many wounded were in a certain area. They provided
18 me with the names of the places from which the Serb artillery shelled
19 Muslim villages.
20 Q. My next series of questions relate to areas in the Srebrenica
21 municipality. And I would like to ask you if you had heard -- if you,
22 during the time that you were in Srebrenica, heard about the attacks and
23 whether or not you reported on them. Rupovo Brdo, did you recall that
24 attack and when it occurred?
25 A. I remember the event that took place at the beginning of June. At
1 that time I was in Srebrenica and people told me about this event. As far
2 as I know, this event was provoked, or better say it was the result of the
3 Serb activity which started at the beginning of May, 1992.
4 In the territory of Vlasenica and the local commune of Derventa,
5 which is very close to the border with Srebrenica, the Serbs set some
6 dozen Muslim villages to fire. They captured some of the population and
7 took them to the camp in Milici. The rest of the population managed to
8 escape to the local commune of Suceska. Some of the population also went
9 to the woods. They took to the woods above the villages which had been
11 As far as I know, as a result of the lack of food, this group of
12 people who took to the woods, they launched an attack, if I may call it
13 so, on the village of Rupovo Brdo.
14 Q. All right. Just so, with respect to the other villages I will ask
15 you about in a time frame, if you could keep your answer as short as
16 possible. We're all running short on time.
17 With respect to Ratkovici. Let me just go back to the last
18 village, Rupovo Brdo. Did you report on this particular action to anyone?
19 Send messages?
20 A. No, I did not send any reports covering the events in Rupovo Brdo.
21 Q. With respect to Ratkovici, do you remember when it occurred, and
22 just tell us, briefly, whether or not you sent any messages with respect
23 to that particular attack.
24 A. As I sit here, I can't remember anything about Ratkovici. What I
25 do remember is the village of Fakovici which is in that same area. I did
1 send messages about the events in Fakovici.
2 Q. And the events that occurred in connection with Jezestica, do you
3 recall sending messages about that particular attack?
4 A. I believe that as far as Jezestica is concerned, I sent
5 information to the media in Sarajevo.
6 Q. Do you recall when that was? When you sent the messages?
7 A. It was either in August or September, 1992.
8 Q. And these messages, in general, were they sent immediately after
9 you heard about the attack, was it days or weeks after? Could you give us
10 a time frame?
11 A. I know very well that it was not immediately after the attack.
12 Generally speaking, I sent very little information on the day when the
13 events occurred. Most of my information was sent a day, two days or even
14 more days after the event. Why? For a simple reason: The wounded could
15 not arrive on the same day, and that is why I did not have the information
16 on the same day. If the event happened closer to the town, then the
17 wounded could come to the hospital sooner and I would receive information
18 from them. I tried to put it into a form of a message or report for the
19 media in Sarajevo.
20 Q. With respect to the village of Bjelovac, do you recall hearing
21 about that attack? And tell us if you reported on that as well.
22 A. Yes. I did send information covering the village of Bjelovac to
24 Q. And the village of Kravica, do you recall sending messages
25 regarding that particular attack?
1 A. Yes. I think that I sent information to Sarajevo on the village
2 of Kravica as well.
3 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, at this time I would like to use a
4 series of exhibits with the witness, and I will keep it as brief as
5 possible. First, Prosecution's Exhibit 162. Put this on the ELMO.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: It is on Sanction, you mean.
7 MS. RICHARDSON: Sorry, thank you. It is on Sanction. We're at
8 this time trying to locate the relevant paragraph.
9 Q. Mr. Becirovic, could you take a look at this document and tell the
10 Trial Chamber whether you're familiar with it, whether you have seen it
12 A. Your Honour, I saw this document here in The Hague for the first
13 time. This was a few days ago.
14 Q. All right. Just for the record, this is Prosecution Exhibit 162,
15 ERN 01840617 to 0624. This is from the Republic of Bosnia and
16 Herzegovina, Srebrenica municipality, Presidency. The date is the 25th of
17 May, 1993.
18 I would draw your attention to about six paragraphs. The first
19 page of the document -- well, at least in English it is the first page and
20 I believe it is the first page of the B/C/S as well, about six paragraphs
21 down. There is a reference -- and I will read a quote, exactly what it
22 states: "On the 26th of August, 1992 the War Presidency was expanding --
23 expanded to include another person, Murat Efendic from Sarajevo."
24 Do you see that sentence?
25 A. Yes, I do.
1 Q. Does this time frame, as well as the appointment of Mr. Efendic,
2 confirm when it was that you started communicating with him and what you
3 knew about him?
4 A. I already said that as far as I can remember I started
5 communicating with Murat Efendic in August. In August 1992, that is.
6 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you. Next document to be shown to the
7 witness is Prosecution Exhibit 259. For the record, this is ERN number
8 0373662, it's a one-page document. It's -- top left hand corner it states
9 Republika Srpska, Ministry of Interior, Sarajevo. It's dated the 24th of
10 December, 1992. It's to the under-secretary of the SNB.
11 Q. I would like to draw your attention -- first I should ask, have
12 you seen this document prior to this day?
13 A. No. I see this document for the first time today.
14 Q. Are you familiar with Predrag Sarinic?
15 A. No, I am not familiar with this name.
16 Q. All right. I would first like to draw your attention to the first
17 sentence, which I will read from the English version: "We wish to inform
18 you that through our source we have been informed of the contents of the
19 conversation Murat Efendic, who is currently in Sarajevo, had with his
20 source in Srebrenica by USW radiolink."
21 And there is certain information, a reference to Peter Kessler, in
22 the document. And my question to you is, does this document -- do you
23 recall reporting this -- any information to Mr. Efendic regarding Peter
24 Kessler and/or UNPROFOR?
25 A. Your Honour, I've read this information. As for the content of
1 this information, it does not reflect the true situation at that moment.
2 Mr. Kessler, who is mentioned here, I never met such a person. I never
3 received any document or anything else that would serve me to code my
4 conversation with Murat. I would like to say here, as regards the first
5 sentence, where it says at the end "his source in Srebrenica by USW
6 radiolink," my experience says, as well as all the other men who were
7 involved in radio communication, that this type of communication cannot be
8 used to establish a link between Srebrenica and Sarajevo.
9 This is the frequency range which is used by radio equipment at
10 very high frequencies. The range is very short, in principle; up to 50
11 kilometres, not more.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's try to answer the question. Thank you for the
13 information that you have given. That's very important, but we also need
14 you to answer the question that was put to you.
15 Did you, on or about this period, we're talking of late December
16 of 1992, did you ever have a conversation with Mr. Murat Efendic, the
17 contents of which tallies with or is similar to the contents of this
18 document that you see here? Forget whether it was by USW radiolink or
19 whatever. Did you ever communicate, have a conversation with Murat
20 Efendic around about that time during which the following -- the
21 information that you see in this document emerged or was discussed or was
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I did talk with Murat
24 Efendic at that time. However, the content of this information is
25 something that we never discussed, or rather, the details of this
2 MS. RICHARDSON:
3 Q. Mr. Becirovic, did Mr. Kessler, who is connected with UNPROFOR,
4 did he -- was he in Srebrenica at any point that you recall?
5 A. I can't remember the names of the people who arrived in Srebrenica
6 with UNPROFOR. The fact is, however, that UNPROFOR entered Srebrenica in
7 April. The fact is also that there had been previous attempts to do so,
8 but the Serb forces would not allow them to enter. I don't remember this
10 Q. All right. Fine. I do have another question. I'm done with this
11 document for now.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I need to point out, Ms. Richardson, that I am
13 informed by the registrar that although we have this document in the B/C/S
14 version, it was never given to us in the English version. So we need a
15 copy of what we saw on Sanction.
16 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, we will provide that.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Not now. I mean later.
18 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, yes.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's not lose time.
20 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes.
21 Q. You mentioned, Mr. Becirovic, that the information that you would
22 give to Mr. Efendic and others was aired. Was this information that you
23 provided, was it aired immediately after your messages were sent? And
24 could you say where it was aired?
25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: What's the objection, Ms. Vidovic?
2 MS. VIDOVIC: [No interpretation]
3 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment because I'm not receiving interpretation.
4 THE INTERPRETER: We don't know what information is referred to,
5 or maybe there is a mistake in interpretation. Could the Prosecutor
6 specify which information she is referring to.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Any information. Any information. That's the gist
8 of the question.
9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. Maybe this is the problem
10 with English. However, in Bosnian, the word "information" was translated
11 as a singular word and it transpired as if the Prosecutor was referring to
12 just one piece of information, not all of the information.
13 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I can easily rectify this with just
14 a more detailed question.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Ms. Vidovic. And keep that in your mind.
16 I mean, I wouldn't be in a position to know how it is being translated
17 into B/C/S in any case, so...
18 MS. RICHARDSON:
19 Q. With respect to the information you -- messages that you sent to
20 Mr. Efendic and others -- and when I say -- if I refer to the word
21 "information," I'm referring to the information regarding the humanitarian
22 situation, any military actions, any war booty recovered -- was that
23 information aired immediately? And could you tell us, if it was aired
24 immediately, where -- what were the manner in which it was aired?
25 A. At first, in August, September, October, November and December --
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 if I remember it correctly -- of 1992, this information could not be aired
2 on the same day, or if that was the case, it would happen in the evening,
3 on the evening news. It largely depended on how Murat Efendic could take
4 this information to the editor of the evening news.
5 In 1993, however, starting from January, in the premises of the
6 Sarajevo radio television station, there was a group of ham radio
7 operators that received information directly. From then on, Murat did not
8 have to take the information to the television station himself. The
9 information that was received from Srebrenica and other areas, such as
10 Brcko and Gorazde, was given to the editor of the news programme directly.
11 Q. Did you, yourself, hear these -- the reports that you had given to
12 the operators, when it was aired?
13 A. Yes. I had the opportunity to listen either to the summaries
14 prepared by the editors of the news programmes, or the sound recording
15 that I sent from Srebrenica and that the radio operators in Sarajevo
16 recorded on their cassette recorder.
17 Q. The mediums which you yourself heard that reported the messages
18 that you sent, were they fairly accurate?
19 A. Yes. The information arriving from Srebrenica was mostly
20 broadcast or published in its original form, unless they decided to
21 shorten it.
22 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, at this moment I would like to have
23 the witness be shown an exhibit, Prosecution's Exhibit 330.
24 Q. Just in the interests of time, Mr. Becirovic, I would ask you to
25 look at this document briefly. This is ERN number 0180-1596, it appears
1 -- in the English it is only one ERN number. It's a single page. It is
2 two pages, excuse me, in the English, and in the B/C/S it is a single
4 Have you seen this document prior to your testimony here in The
6 A. Your Honours, I see this document for the first time.
7 Q. All right. If you look at the -- I'm not asking you anything
8 specifically with respect to the information in the document itself, but
9 could you tell the Trial Chamber whether you're able to determine how this
10 document was sent. Or was it sent?
11 A. Once again I would like to point out the upper left corner, where
12 I see the telephone number. I suppose that this document was sent by fax,
13 if it was sent.
14 MS. RICHARDSON: All right. Your Honour, again we have the same
15 problem as we had previously --
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I know.
17 MS. RICHARDSON: -- and we will provide --
18 JUDGE AGIUS: I, of course, was about to --
19 MS. RICHARDSON: -- provide another translation.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
21 Q. Thank you, Mr. Becirovic.
22 MS. RICHARDSON: Next I would like the witness to take
23 a look at Prosecution's Exhibit 303. For the record, ERN number 01787781.
24 Q. Please tell the Trial Chamber whether you have seen this document
25 prior to your testimony here today.
1 A. Your Honours, once again I see this document for the first time.
2 Q. Could you tell us if you're able to determine whether this
3 document is -- is there any indication on this document about the way it
4 was transmitted? And by that I can -- if I draw your attention to the top
5 right-hand corner. In the English, it is translated "Tuzla 214904 TZ,"
6 and then "Sarajevo 521500."
7 A. These are most likely telephone numbers, one in Tuzla and one in
8 Sarajevo. If this document was indeed sent, then in the upper-left corner
9 there should be the telephone number from which it was sent.
10 Q. Did you yourself send this document?
11 A. No, I did not send this document.
12 Q. Thank you.
13 MS. RICHARDSON: One moment, Your Honour. Your Honour, at this
14 time I would like the witness to be shown Prosecution's Exhibit 26. ERN
15 number 01801598. It's a two-page English document. In B/C/S, it appears
16 to be one page.
17 Q. Again I would ask you to take a look at this document and ask if
18 you have seen it before.
19 A. Your Honours, I see this document for the first time.
20 Q. All right. Could you look to the top left-hand corner of the
21 B/C/S version of the document and tell us -- or any portion of the
22 document, in fact, and tell us whether or not you can determine how this
23 document was sent, if it was sent.
24 A. Judging by the telephone number in the upper left corner, it is
25 possible that this document was faxed.
1 Q. All right. I would like to move to the next document to be shown
2 to the witness, and that is Prosecution's Exhibit 116.
3 If you could take a look at this document and tell the Trial
4 Chamber whether you have seen it before your testimony today.
5 A. Your Honours, I see this document for the first time as well.
6 Q. Are you able to determine, Mr. Becirovic, how this document was
7 transmitted, if indeed it was, by looking at the details at the top of the
9 A. I see in the upper portion of the document here the telephone
10 number, and it is possible that this document was faxed from this number.
11 Q. Thank you. The next exhibit is Prosecution's Exhibit 307. Have
12 you seen this document -- let me just state for the record, this is ERN
13 01787794. It is a single-page document.
14 Mr. Becirovic, can you take a look at the document and tell Your
15 Honours whether you have seen this document prior to your testimony today.
16 A. Your Honours, judging by the contents of this document, I do not
17 remember these details. However, if I look at the date when the document
18 may have been sent, and if I look at the upper right corner, I can say
19 that it is possible that I sent this document to the 4 BMN radio club in
20 Tuzla. I say that it could be, it is possible that I did that, because
21 every document that I transmitted I recorded in the document the date when
22 I transmitted it and put my signature there.
23 However, above the signature in this document, I can see something
24 that I never used, which is this bit here where it says "Referent," which
25 I assume means communications clerk.
1 Q. Mr. Becirovic, are you familiar with Mr. Brkic?
2 A. Yes. Mr. Salih Brkic is well known. Before the war, during the
3 war, and nowadays he keeps working as a journalist and is employed either
4 at the Tuzla TV station or perhaps the BH TV.
5 Q. And are you familiar with the radio station that is indicated,
6 4BMN? Is that one of the radio stations that you communicated with during
7 1992? And specifically, this document states the 5th of August, 1992.
8 A. Yes. This is the area code for the Kreka radio club from Tuzla.
9 And, yes, I am familiar with this code, because I contacted the operators,
10 the ham radio operators from this club.
11 Q. All right. Thank you.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Could we have, again, on the --
13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour, please.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Mr. Becirovic, looking at that page, at that
15 document, do you recognise your handwriting anywhere on that document, to
16 start with?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the signature in the
18 document in the upper right corner could be mine. Also this part here,
19 where it says "submitted on the 5th of August, 1992 through 4BMN" may also
20 have been written by me. However, this phrase here, communications clerk,
21 or "Referent" is something that I never used.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Judge Eser, it's the words which are immediately
23 above the signature.
24 And by any chance, do you recognise the rest of the handwriting on
25 that document? Does it bring anyone in mind?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot recognise the rest of the
2 handwriting in the document, and I don't know who wrote it.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Yes, Ms. Richardson.
4 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour. I have no further
5 questions with respect to this document. The next document I will be
6 using is Prosecution's Exhibit 308. The ERN for this document is
7 0178-7796. It is a single-page document in both English and B/C/S.
8 Q. Mr. Becirovic, again I would ask you to take a look at this
9 document and tell Your Honours whether you have seen this document prior
10 to your testimony here today.
11 A. Your Honours, I remember the event mentioned in the document. I
12 remember that at the time I transmitted a brief piece of information to
13 Tuzla and Sarajevo. I say "Tuzla and Sarajevo" because it says here, Time
14 1350 Sarajevo, and 1715 Tuzla. The figures in the brackets are area codes
15 for the radio clubs in Tuzla and Sarajevo and immediately following that
16 are the names of radio operators.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Can we see the B/C/S version? Yes. Again,
18 the same questions that I asked you before: Do you recognise your own
19 handwriting on the document? Or your signature, for that matter? Or
20 anybody else's handwriting and/or signature?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I used abbreviated signature when
22 transmitting information. It is possible that the time indicated here and
23 the names of radio clubs were also written by me, because that was the
24 regular practice. When transmitting information, I normally recorded the
25 time and the area code of the radio club to which it was sent. The rest
1 of the handwriting in this document is not familiar to me, which means
2 that I don't know who wrote it.
3 I assume that since I received this information from Hamed Alic,
4 that he wrote it.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Yes, Ms. Richardson.
6 MS. RICHARDSON:
7 Q. Thank you. Mr. Becirovic, the next document I would like you to
8 be shown is Prosecution Exhibit 309, and that's ERN number 0178-7813.
9 It's a single-page document.
10 So that we're clear, if you could just tell us, Mr. Becirovic, you
11 just mentioned that Mr. Hamed Alic could have written that document.
12 Could you tell us whether the practice was Hamed Alic would bring you
13 messages at times and could you tell us if you actually wrote down any of
14 the messages from him that were given to you orally.
15 A. The practice was, while Hamed Alic was in Srebrenica, for me to
16 receive information from him. Therefore the information was written down.
17 My duty was to transmit it. I apologise.
18 Q. Thank you. With respect to the document that is before you,
19 that's Prosecution's Exhibit 309, could you please just review this
20 document and tell Your Honours whether you have seen this document prior
21 to your testimony in The Hague.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: If you could arrange to have a split screen. On one
23 side the English version, on the other side the B/C/S version, please.
24 First page only. I am not interested in the second or...
1 MS. RICHARDSON: Give us a moment, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes, of course. This is while the witness goes
3 through the document.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, based on this
5 document, we can see that the intention was to transmit this information
6 to the Presidency of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, the
7 government of Bosnia and Herzegovina, UNHCR, UNPROFOR, and the agency for
8 receiving and distributing humanitarian aid. The contents of the document
9 indicate just how difficult humanitarian situation in the town was. The
10 number of the ill and the wounded is mentioned here, it is also stated
11 that humanitarian assistance is needed in terms of food and medicine.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Stop. Did you see this document before you arrived
13 here at the Hague?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Judging by the signature in the
15 upper right corner, on the 25th of August, 1992, I sent this document to
16 Sarajevo and to Zagreb.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Any further questions on this document?
18 MS. RICHARDSON: No, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. One question myself. At the bottom of
20 the page there, there is a signature, some writing, and again a date, 25th
21 of August, 1992. Could you tell us what that is, please, and whether you
22 recognise that signature.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot confirm that I recognise
24 this signature. However, such information was normally delivered to me by
25 Hamed Alic. The date is the same as the day the document was drafted on.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: And what are the two words on top of the signature,
2 if you can read them?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It could be abbreviation for chief
4 of service. This probably refers to the service for communications and
5 information in Srebrenica.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Do you need this document any further?
7 MS. RICHARDSON: No, Your Honour, thank you.
8 The next document to be shown to the witness is Prosecution
9 Exhibit 310, and that is ERN number 01787819. It's a single-page
11 Q. Again, the same question, Mr. Becirovic: If you could look at the
12 document and tell Your Honours whether you have seen this document prior
13 to your testimony here today in The Hague.
14 A. Your Honours, I am familiar with the contents of this document.
15 These are the events taking place immediately before and after this date.
16 Based on the text in the upper right corner, I transmitted this document
17 via the 4 RT radio club to the media.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: And again, at the bottom of the page, on the left,
19 there is a signature, there is a date, there is a word, which I can't
20 read. Perhaps you could help us with that. Do you recognise the
21 signature, in the first place?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. The signature is not familiar
23 to me.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. And what's the word on top of that
25 signature, if you can read it?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not sure, but it resembles the
2 word "nacelnik," "chief."
3 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you. Let's move to the next
4 document, I suppose.
5 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, Your Honour, thank you. The next document
6 is Prosecution's Exhibit 122, ERN number 0178-7820. It's a single-page
8 Q. Again, it's the same question, Mr. Becirovic: Have you seen this
9 prior to your testimony here today, and are you familiar with it?
10 A. Your Honour, I remember that in Srebrenica we sent appeals and we
11 tried to obtain the equipment that is mentioned in this document. I
12 forwarded this document to Sarajevo on that date. I did it through the
13 radio amateur club 4 SGS.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: At the bottom of the page there are two signatures.
15 They look the same at first sight. Do you recognise that signature, or
16 those signatures?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot confirm that I know and
18 recognise the signature.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you. Let's move to the next --
20 sorry, Ms. Richardson.
21 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, just one question with respect to
22 this document.
23 Q. Mr. Becirovic, it states that the recipient of this document
24 should be the Main Staff of the BH armed forces. It also states,
25 secondly, District Staff of the armed forces, Tuzla. My question to you
1 is, did you send this information via radio station to Tuzla as well? Do
2 you recall?
3 A. The intention was to send this information to the District Staff
4 and the Main Staff of the armed forces in Tuzla. However, the information
5 was not sent to Tuzla. I can't remember why at this moment. But I know
6 that the situation was such that it did not allow me to establish contact
7 with Tuzla, and if there was no means to establish that contact, then
8 obviously I couldn't do it.
9 Q. You testified previously that you -- that you contacted a radio
10 station in Tuzla. Could you tell us the name of the operator and the name
11 of the station that you would contact.
12 A. In Tuzla itself, there was a radio club that I was in contact
13 with. The name of this club was Kreka and it's code was 4 BMN. I
14 remember a certain girl whose name was Nada, who operated the radio
15 station there. I can't remember her family name. There are other young
16 men and women who operated the radio station there, but I don't know their
18 Q. On any occasion did Nada, on your behalf, communicate any messages
19 to the Tuzla District Staff, whether it was with respect to humanitarian
20 aid, or reports on war booty, or anything of that nature?
21 A. There were cases when I sent information about the humanitarian
22 crisis to Nada, and my intention was for this information to reach the
23 District Staff of the Territorial Defence, in addition to the media.
24 The intention was to inform the responsible army people in the
25 Tuzla region about the current situation in Srebrenica and the idea was
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 that they would be able to help us. I'm not sure that Nada sent the
2 information to all the places that were defined. Once I sent the
3 information, I didn't know what happened to it next.
4 The only exception to that was when I heard my information
5 broadcast on the media, then I knew that it had reached the intended
7 Q. And when you communicated to Mr. Efendic, what did he do with that
8 information, as far as you knew?
9 A. According to what he told me, once he received information, most
10 of it he sent to the Presidency and the government of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
11 And if it was intended for the information to reach the Main Staff of the
12 armed forces, he wouldn't always do that, because he believed that if the
13 information was aired on the media, the responsible people in the top
14 echelons of the BiH army would receive enough information as to what was
15 going on in Srebrenica.
16 The contents of the information was not of such a nature that it
17 should have been sent to the military leaders. It was more important for
18 this information to reach the government and the Presidency. And the
19 UNPROFOR, the UNHCR, the High Commissioner for the Refugees, because we
20 could expect more help from them, so to say.
21 Q. Mr. Efendic never actually told you that he did not communicate
22 this -- well, did he? Did he actually tell you how many messages he did
23 not communicate to the Main Staff?
24 A. I remember our conversations. He told me that he did not take
25 some of the messages. At this moment I can't give you any percentage.
1 The situation dictated certain things. What was happening today somehow
2 took priority over what had happened the day before, because every new day
3 was worse and a new day from hell compared to the one before.
4 Q. With respect to the war booty that you previously testified about,
5 do you know if Mr. Efendic reported that information to the armed forces?
6 A. I really wouldn't know. Whatever was sent from Srebrenica, he was
7 supposed to take to the addressees specified in the information. I can
8 only assume that he took that information to the Presidency, to the
9 government, or maybe even to the leaders of the BiH army.
10 Q. All right. And -- thank you, Mr. Becirovic.
11 MS. RICHARDSON: I would like the witness to be shown the next
12 exhibit. That's Prosecution's Exhibit 133, ERN number 0230783.
13 Q. Mr. Becirovic, please look at this document and tell Your Honours
14 whether you have seen this document prior to coming to testify today.
15 Let me draw your attention, in the interests of time, to the
16 second page in English, and the B/C/S the section that makes reference to
17 Srebrenica. It's also in the second page in the B/C/S version of the
18 document, approximately five or six paragraphs towards the end of the
20 Now, --
21 A. Your Honour, I've never seen this document before.
22 Q. All right. My question, Mr. Becirovic, and I will just state for
23 the record, this document is from the Republic of Bosnia-Hercegovina,
24 Tuzla district defence staff. It is dated the 14th of September, 1992.
25 The relevant paragraph, it's just a few sentences, there is a reference to
1 weaponry captured by Srebrenica, it appears.
2 Could you tell us whether this information that's contained here
3 is similar to the information that you provided Nada in Tuzla to be
4 relayed to the Tuzla armed forces?
5 A. I did not send this form of information, as I can see it here.
6 The information that I sent contained other details. It did happen that
7 the information contained data on weaponry. However, here I can see two
8 PAMS and I really can't remember whether I forwarded this information, or
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Next question.
11 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour?
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Next question.
13 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes.
14 Q. But you do recall sending information with respect to equipment
15 that may have been captured, if not specifically the ones that are
16 mentioned here, to Tuzla via Nada?
17 A. Yes. I did mention weaponry. Not the numbers of any specific
18 types of weapons, but I did mention weaponry.
19 Q. All right. Thank you. The next document is Prosecution Exhibit
20 134, and that's ERN number 01787841 to 42. It's a two-page document.
21 Mr. Becirovic, please look at this document, tell us whether you
22 have seen this document prior. And also with respect to Your Honour's
23 questions previously, look to the top right-hand corner, see whether or
24 not you can recognise your signature, and identify the places that this
25 was communicated to.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: What's your question? Because depending on what the
2 question is we can decide whether he needs to read the whole document.
3 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes.
4 Q. Do you recognise this document, Mr. Becirovic? Had you seen it
5 prior to your testimony here today?
6 A. Yes. I sent a similar document to Sarajevo and Tuzla. When I say
7 "similar," I mean with the same contents. And that was immediately after
8 the event, maybe one or two days later, after the event.
9 Q. And do you recognise your signature on the top right-hand corner?
10 A. Yes. This is my signature in the upper right corner. Also, there
11 is a reference to the radio clubs to which the document was sent.
12 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you. I have no further questions on this
14 Prosecution's Exhibit 144 should be shown to the witness next. It
15 is ERN 01804130. It's a single-page document.
16 Q. Mr. Becirovic, have you seen this document prior to your testimony
17 here today? If you look to the second paragraph in particular, it appears
18 to be a report on refugee matters in Srebrenica, as well as Vlasenica.
19 Are you familiar with that information?
20 A. Your Honour, I had not seen this document before I came to The
21 Hague, and the information in the second paragraph speaks about the events
22 that had taken place. There was a huge number of refugees in Srebrenica
23 and in the free territories of Srebrenica, and they did arrive at this
24 time and circulated around the municipality.
25 Q. Thank you. The next document to be shown to the witness is
1 Prosecution's Exhibit 314, and that is ERN number 01787890.
2 Mr. Becirovic, had you seen this document prior to your testimony
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Apart from this, what's your next question?
5 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour --
6 Q. Mr. Becirovic, do you recognise your handwriting anywhere on this
7 document with respect to whether or not it was sent again with all of the
8 documents, the top right-hand corner, which there is an indication of a
9 radio station -- two radio stations. If you could just tell us quickly
10 whether or not this confirms that you sent this document.
11 A. Yes, Your Honour. I can confirm that I sent this document to
12 Sarajevo and Tuzla.
13 Q. All right. Thank you. The next document 228, and that's ERN
14 number 0182785.
15 I will direct you to the specific portion of this document.
16 Please tell us just briefly -- just look at it and tell us if you have
17 seen it before. And look to the specific area that is on this page
18 regarding Srebrenica. It's on the first page.
19 If you read that portion of that information there, could you tell
20 us whether you're familiar with those events, and whether you recall
21 reporting them.
22 A. Your Honour, I see this document for the first time. And judging
23 by the information contained herein regarding the municipality of
24 Srebrenica, I remember that this and similar events did take place. There
25 was constant shelling, every day shelling. It is possible that I sent
1 information about the shelling, that I sent it to Sarajevo and Tuzla with
2 the intention of having them aired on the media, or having that
3 information conveyed to the civilian and military authorities there.
4 Q. Thank you. The next document to be shown to the witness is
5 301, Prosecution's Exhibit, 01787765.
6 Had you seen this document prior to your testimony here in The
7 Hague, Mr. Becirovic?
8 A. Before I arrived in The Hague, I had not seen the document.
9 Q. All right.
10 A. On the 16th November I forwarded this document to Sarajevo and
11 Tuzla, on the 6th [as interpreted] of November, 1992, and you can see that
12 in the top right corner.
13 Q. Thank you. Next document is 160, Prosecution's Exhibit, and that
14 is 01239547.
15 Please take a look at this document, Mr. Becirovic. Had you seen
16 this document prior to your testimony today?
17 A. Judging by the information in the top right corner, I forwarded
18 this document to two addresses in Sarajevo.
19 Q. All right. Thank you.
20 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I'm being told we may be close to a
21 break at this point. Are we having no more breaks?
22 JUDGE AGIUS: No. We are adjourning in five minutes' time.
23 MS. RICHARDSON: Okay, thank you.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: What I wanted to know is whether there is any point
25 in showing the witness further documents, trying to prove the same point.
1 MS. RICHARDSON: No, Your Honour. I'm finished with that series
2 of documents.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay.
4 MS. RICHARDSON: I do think -- oh, I may just have one area that I
5 can cover very quickly.
6 Q. Mr. Becirovic, you said that you were appointed -- well, let me
7 rephrase the question.
8 After Hamed Alic left Srebrenica, did you take over his duties?
9 A. Nobody appointed me to perform Hamed Alic's duties. I just
10 continued doing what I had been doing up to then. So for the part
11 concerning the information on the events that took place in Srebrenica,
12 this was something that Hamed Alic used to do and I took over, with the
13 agreement of the president of the War Presidency, of course.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Let's clear this up. Were you receiving a
15 salary at the time? Or some kind of remuneration for your work?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. In Srebrenica
17 nobody was paid for what they did. When the convoys with humanitarian aid
18 arrived, we received food. But not only us who worked, but the -- all
19 those who didn't work, all the citizens received equal portions of food
20 that arrived in Srebrenica after the demilitarisation with humanitarian
21 aid convoys.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Yes, shall we stop here?
23 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, Your Honour, this is a good point.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Thanks. Madam Vidovic, having now followed this
25 examination-in-chief for two days, what's your assessment of time required
1 for cross-examination?
2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] At least a day, Your Honour. It
3 will largely depend on how much time the Prosecutor is going to spend a
4 lot of day on her next day of examination-in-chief. If she is quick, then
5 I may finish in one day. If not, then I will have to continue.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So that's the position. Mr. Becirovic -
7 correct - we are going to stop here today. We will continue on Monday.
8 In the meantime, take a rest and we will do our best to finish with your
9 testimony on Monday so that you can return back to your work and family.
10 In the meantime, please, it's my responsibility to remind you that
11 you are not to speak with anyone on the subject matter of your testimony.
12 You can, of course, contact your family, you can contact friends, but not
13 mention or allow them to mention or discuss these matters. All right?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: So that's it. We stand adjourned until Monday
17 How long do you think you need to finish?
18 MS. RICHARDSON: Well, Your Honour, I think probably most of the
19 session on Monday, but not all of it. And I will revisit my
20 examination-in-chief again and try to condense it down.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: What are you trying to -- I have been thinking for
22 two days, what are you seeking to prove by this gentleman's testimony?
23 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I don't have any more exhibits so I
24 am sure I can complete it by probably the first break. We have a couple
25 of video clips that are very short, so I will work expediently on Monday.
1 You have my assurance.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, thank you.
3 I thank you all. Have a nice weekend and we will see you again on
5 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.00 p.m,
6 to be reconvened on Monday, the 25th day of April,
7 2005 at 9.00 a.m.