1 Monday, 9 May 2005
2 [Open session]
3 --- Upon commencing at 9.06 a.m.
4 [The accused entered court]
5 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case
6 IT-03-68-T, the Prosecutor versus Naser Oric.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Madam Registrar and good morning to
8 you. Mr. Oric, can you follow the proceedings in your own language?
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours, ladies
10 and gentlemen. Yes, I can.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. You may sit down and good morning to
12 you. Appearances for the Prosecution.
13 MR. WUBBEN: Good morning, Your Honours. My name is Jan Wubben,
14 lead counsel for the Prosecution. Good morning to the Defence. Together
15 with co-counsel Joanne Richardson and our case manager Donnica
17 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Wubben. Good morning to you and
18 your team. Appearances for Naser Oric.
19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours, I'm
20 Vasvija Vidovic together with Mr. John Jones, appearing on behalf of Mr.
21 Naser Oric. We have with us our legal assistant, Miss Adisa Mehic and
22 our case manager Mr. Geoff Roberts. Good morning also to my learned
23 friends from the OTP.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Madam Vidovic and good morning to your
25 team. Any preliminaries before I say mine?
1 MR. WUBBEN: No, Your Honour.
2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] None, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: I have over the weekend had a family matter arising
4 that needs attending to with some -- not exactly urgency but it needs to
5 be attended to before -- definitely before -- that is, the sooner the
6 better. And so I need to go home for two days, and the only flights that
7 I have managed to secure is leaving on the 19th of May which means
8 basically the two sittings of the 19th and 20th will have to go and we'll
9 have to make up for those later on.
10 So I will of course be returning the same weekend so I leave
11 Thursday and I come back Saturday or Sunday. I mean I'm wait-listed both
12 going out and coming in so I don't know exactly what's going to happen
13 but that's the position. So the 19th and the 20th. There is one witness
14 scheduled for those two days, and we will have to reschedule that
15 witness. Basically that's the --
16 MR. WUBBEN: We will, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: I appreciate that Mr. Wubben. I thought of letting
18 you know straight away. All the flights are pretty booked and overbooked
19 and I had a big problems trying to find a flight to go home.
20 So let's bring the witness in and continue.
21 [The witness entered court]
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you, Mr. Okanovic. I hope you had
23 a good weekend here in The Hague, in this beautiful city of The Hague,
24 and we will now proceed with your testimony and you will be
25 cross-examined by Mr. Jones who is co-counsel defending Mr. Oric.
1 Just two matters. May I please remind you that you are
2 testifying under oath pursuant to the solemn declaration that you made
3 last Friday; and that secondly, since we depend to a large extent if not
4 completely on interpretation here, if at any time there are problems with
5 your receiving interpretation, please draw our attention straight away,
6 because we need to be able to follow the testimony and everyone else
7 needs to be able to follow the testimony in all the languages of this
9 So I thank you. Good morning, and Mr. Jones may start with his
11 MR. JONES: Thank you, Your Honour.
12 WITNESS: MILOS OKANOVIC [Resumed]
13 [Witness answered through interpreter]
14 Cross-examined by Mr. Jones:
15 MR. JONES:
16 Q. And good morning from me, Mr. Okanovic.
17 A. Good morning.
18 Q. You speak English?
19 A. A little bit.
20 Q. I'm going to start by revisiting the video which you were shown
21 on Friday just in one or two parts to fill in some gaps.
22 Now, firstly, I'll indicate beforehand what I'm going to ask you
23 to look out for and the first thing it's a very small thing but on the
24 transcript, P316.1, we have a name appearing, Razo. It says "Razo" on
25 the transcript. I'm going to play the segment and tell us if you
1 actually here the name "Raso."
2 So if we could just play starting at 3120.
3 [Videotape played]
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's possible it might be Raso. It
5 might be. "Raso told me so," that might be what they are saying.
6 Q. And Raso is a Serb name, isn't it?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Is it short for Radovan?
9 A. Could be.
10 Q. Now, we are going to play another segment and if you could tell
11 us this time if you hear the words I'll say it in Bosnian. [B/C/S
12 spoken] or perhaps [B/C/S spoken]. We'll play the segment starting at
14 [Videotape played]
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. That's someone standing next
16 to me commenting.
17 MR. JONES:
18 Q. And that essentially means look how well the plane is bombing or
19 blasting or something of that nature? Would you agree?
20 A. I can't quite agree with the blasting. This wasn't something
21 that we could see. We could only hear explosions and we didn't know
22 exactly what they were hitting.
23 Q. Just on the transcript, firstly, that appears as "Look how well
24 he's flying." You agree that that's not what was being said by the
25 person next to you?
1 A. No, it isn't.
2 Q. [B/C/S spoken] refers to throwing rockets or bombs or some
4 A. Yes, yes.
5 Q. Next, do you recall that you said at some point in response to a
6 question, "ours went silent." [B/C/S spoken]. Do you recall that from
8 A. I think I do but I don't remember what the reason was for saying
10 Q. We'll play that segment and that starts at 3320.
11 [Videotape played]
12 MR. JONES:
13 Q. Did you hear yourself saying something of that nature in that
15 A. Yes. I heard my own voice. A person standing next to me was
16 asking me whether it was Miko. I said I had no idea and then my voice
17 says, "He came back without having done anything."
18 Q. Okay. In particular I wanted to ask you about this expression
19 which it appears -- well, which you commented on Friday, that "Ours went
20 silent" and when you were asked about that you said that you were
21 referring to Bosnian Serb soldiers. For the sake of clarity I'll refer
22 to the transcript from Friday and it's page 17 lines 2 to 7 in LiveNote.
23 And you said: "Witness: Again, this young boy is asking me who
24 is firing and I'm replying, well, it's not our men because our men
25 weren't shooting. That's what I told him. And when I said 'our men,' --
1 the transcript is a bit unclear but the reference was Bosnian Serbs. And
2 then Your Honour pointed out the statement was made at 34.561. It's that
3 I want to ask you about now.
4 Now, on Friday you told us repeatedly that you couldn't see any
5 people in Sikiric that day; correct?
6 A. I said I was not able to see any people there, from where I was
8 Q. And the Prosecution asked you if you saw Bosnian Serb soldiers
9 that day and you said no. Isn't it right that in effect that question is
10 misleading because you didn't see anybody that day, Muslims, Serbs,
11 soldiers or civilians?
12 A. Quite right. I saw no one.
13 Q. And again, just while we are on this theme, how far roughly is
14 the distance from your house to Sikiric?
15 A. About a kilometre and a half.
16 Q. And you also told us how later you went down to the Drina and
17 looked across and you still couldn't see people. What distance would
18 that be from where you were by the Drina over to Sikiric?
19 A. Perhaps 300 or 400 metres from the Drina. I was able to see some
20 houses that were nearby but I did not see any persons. If I had seen any
21 persons I would have taped them.
22 Q. Would you agree that from 500 metres, or thereabouts, it's not
23 actually possible to see whether someone is wearing a uniform or civilian
25 A. If I may be allowed to clarify something. It didn't mean
1 anything to us at the time, seeing someone in civilian clothes or in
2 uniform. People just wore uniforms. Those were no textbook armies on
3 either side. Those people were just civilians heading off to war. A
4 uniform meant nothing.
5 Q. Yes, and if I can follow up on that, is it correct then that if
6 you saw someone in civilian clothes they could be a soldier, firstly?
7 A. Could be, but I didn't see anyone.
8 Q. Yes, I'm just speaking about in general terms, the army as you
9 described it in this period, on both sides. Secondly, that someone could
10 be wearing a uniform or a piece of uniform and not be a soldier but
11 simply possess a uniform from their military service? You have to give a
12 verbal answer, I'm afraid.
13 A. Yes. It wasn't your run-of-the-mill army, like I said. Those
14 were just armed civilians on both sides.
15 Q. Finally on this theme, can you confirm that farmers would
16 sometimes wear bits of uniform just because they were well made and warm
17 rather than because they were serving in a unit?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And that's true of both sides, Muslim and Serb?
20 A. Yes. You see that sort of thing today.
21 Q. Thank you. Now, going back, then, to what we heard about "ours
22 went silent" and your reference to the fact that as you put it, your men
23 weren't shooting. Since you couldn't see any people, in fact, you didn't
24 know who was shooting, did you, Serbs or Muslims?
25 A. I meant the plane probably, I'm not even sure myself what I
1 meant. One thing is certain, I couldn't see anyone at the time but I
2 probably had the plane in mind when I said that. Something to the effect
3 that it just flew by without firing.
4 Q. Flew by on that occasion without firing?
5 A. Yes, on that occasion.
6 Q. So you accept that in terms of who was shooting at whom, you
7 didn't know whether it was Serbs or Muslims who was doing the firing.
8 A. [No interpretation]
9 Q. Sorry, your answer wasn't translated. Could you repeat it,
11 A. I do accept that, yes. There was no way I could know.
12 Q. Could it be also that when you were referring to "ours went" --
13 this phrase, "ours went silent," you could be referring to artillery in
14 Serbia which had ceased shooting at that moment or -- let me put that a
15 different way. Isn't it right that there was artillery in Serbia, in
17 A. No, not at that time. I'm sure about that. Had there been any
18 armed forces on the Serbian side, we would not have needed to organise
19 any village guards.
20 Q. All right. But do you accept that there was heavy artillery in
22 A. No, not that I saw it.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, one moment.
24 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I'd just like with respect to
25 counsel's question -- exactly when, at what time period is he referring
1 to. Are we talking about the day in question or prior to?
2 JUDGE AGIUS: I take it we are talking about the day in question,
4 MR. JONES: Well, I can go back to that.
5 Q. You said at that time. "No, not at that time." There wasn't
6 artillery in Serbia. So at what time was there or what time did you
7 become aware that there was --
8 A. There were no armed forces.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: But the question is did at any later point in time
10 then was there artillery in the location that was mentioned to you by Mr.
12 MR. JONES: Yes, in Ljubovija.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: In Ljubovija.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. I only know that
15 later on some armed forces arrived of the Republika Srpska or Yugoslavia
16 but I don't know when exactly. But that was much later. I can't be sure
17 about when.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you.
19 MR. JONES: I may come back to that but thank you for the time
21 Q. I want to ask you now about an expression we heard on the video
22 where on the transcript it appears you don't know which is which and I
23 want you to listen to the segment and see whether that's what you hear or
24 whether you hear you don't know who is who. [B/C/S spoken]. So we'll
25 play that segment which starts at 3510.
1 [Videotape played]
2 MR. JONES:
3 Q. Yes, did you hear that?
4 A. Yes, I said it.
5 Q. And you were saying you don't know who was who?
6 A. There was someone next to me who suggested that we go and help
7 them and I said who are you going to help, if you don't know who was who?
8 They are both wearing the same kind of uniform. Now who are you going to
9 be helping?
10 There was no way you to distinguish soldiers on the basis of
11 where they belonged and there was no way you could tell their accents
12 either. That was the meaning behind my words. I said you don't know who
13 is who, not meaning anything else.
14 Q. Thank you. And that was based on your general knowledge of how
15 things were, that it appeared to you a scene of complete confusion and
16 chaos on the other side of the Drina?
17 A. Yes, exactly.
18 Q. And into this scene, as we've seen the Serb planes were dropping
19 bombs, did you hear that -- did you hear after the action that some Serbs
20 were killed by bombs dropped by Serb planes?
21 A. No. What I heard is that Muslim forces had killed them.
22 Q. Would it not be consistent with what you saw, this chaotic scene,
23 that people were actually killed by bombs as well, Serbs and Muslims
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Richardson?
1 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I would object to the manner in
2 which this question is being posed. I think the witness answered the
3 question. If Mr. Jones would put the question in a different way,
4 whether or not he's aware or he observed bombs killing these individuals,
5 that's another question. But the way in which he posed it whatever
6 answer the witness gives may be misleading.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I agree with you Ms. Richardson. Could you
8 rephrase your question if you wish to pursue the matter, Mr. Jones.
9 MR. JONES: I won't pursue the matter. It was really to do with
10 what he heard rather than what he saw.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
12 MR. JONES:
13 Q. In the next section I'd like you to list hear and listen if you
14 hear persons saying ours are doing very well. [B/C/S spoken] and [B/C/S
15 spoken], and that's starting from 3800 or thereabouts.
16 [Videotape played]
17 MR. JONES:
18 Q. Yes, can you confirm that's what you heard.
19 A. Yes. That is someone commenting over the radio. They are
20 referring to the bird, probably meaning the plane, and they are saying
21 that it did a good job.
22 Q. So in general, that's an expression of the fact that the Serb
23 side is doing well at that time, at least that the airplanes are doing
24 their job.
25 A. Don't take my word for it. I think you should just listen and
1 try to see for yourself. There was no way I could see from where I was
2 whether someone was doing a good job for not. Therefore I don't think I
3 can answer your question.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Judge Eser?
5 JUDGE ESER: For a question of clarification, if the question it
6 was asked as -- that the airplanes are doing their job. Now, the remark
7 which was made, was it made with regard to both planes in the morning and
8 the afternoon or was it referring to one plane only? And if so, which
9 planes, the morning or the afternoon?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This was at 10.00 in the morning.
11 He says the bird in the singular did well.
12 JUDGE ESER: So at that time there was only one plane? Could
13 you --
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't recall, but the person
15 speaking on the radio says the bird did well. He's referring to a plane
16 in the singular.
17 MR. JONES:
18 Q. That's a reference to one plane but you're not saying, are you,
19 that you know there was only one plane in the air at that time?
20 A. When I looked at the tape the second time, it was only then I
21 noticed that there were two planes. I don't recall there being two. It
22 was only when I looked at the tape again that I realised that there were
23 two different planes. I don't have this tape at home.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's clear this up because I think there is a
25 little bit of confusion now. We saw the tape last Friday and I agree
1 with you that on that tape, at least, there are two distinctly different
2 planes, one is just a biplane, with two layers of wings and the other one
3 is just an ordinary propeller-driven plane. Were they flying -- were
4 they in the sky together at any given time during the day that you
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't recall. Had they been
7 there both together I would probably have taped that. I don't recall
8 that they were there together.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.
10 MR. JONES:
11 Q. Just on that subject I'll come back to it but the biplane was the
12 one dropping bombs; correct?
13 A. Don't know.
14 Q. We'll see that in a moment. And wasn't there a fighting plane,
15 possibly a MIG, which was flying over and possibly shooting at people as
17 A. Absolutely not. I'm sure of it.
18 Q. So what did you see the fighter plane doing?
19 A. That was a fast plane. These are slow planes and I saw those.
20 However, had there been a MIG, I would have had to see it and hear it. I
21 couldn't have missed it. There were no big, fast planes flying over.
22 Q. I'm going to come back to the planes shortly but just dealing
23 with the biplane now, we are going to see a section where what appears to
24 be a bomb is dropped from the plane. And we hear a woman saying, [B/C/S
25 spoken], there it is, and then an impact. That's at 4750. Yes. We'll
1 start slightly before.
2 [Videotape played]
3 MR. JONES:
4 Q. Now we saw just then the jolting, a jolting movement a moment
5 ago. Isn't what we've seen a bomb being dropped, a dust cloud being
6 thrown up and even the impact jolting your camera or something of that
7 nature? Can you help us with that?
8 A. No. No way. It was very far from the camera and I didn't even
9 hear the explosion on that occasion. On another part of the tape, you
10 can see bombs being dropped and explosions. As for this, no. I wouldn't
11 say it was an explosion.
12 Q. Maybe that wasn't the best section to show you. Do you accept
13 that you saw the impact of bombs falling in Sikiric?
14 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated] get that last Friday.
15 He did testify, Mr. Jones, that some bombs may not have exploded.
16 MR. JONES: Yes so it follows that some did explode.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, some did, obviously, and we saw. We had seen
18 this tape anyway. So please go ahead and ask him any questions you like
19 of course.
20 MR. JONES: Yes.
21 Q. Could you estimate how many bombs were dropped that day?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Less than ten, more than 20, 50?
24 A. No. I don't know. I don't want to play around with numbers
25 because I really have no idea.
1 Q. Now, we heard a person earlier on the tape saying, if there are
2 Ustasha there, they must be crazy. Do you recall that?
3 A. Yes. We heard that just a moment ago.
4 Q. And when that person was referring to Ustashas, he was referring
5 to Muslims?
6 A. Probably, yes.
7 Q. And just for our benefit, that's in fact a rather ugly term used
8 to describe Muslims by Serbs sometimes, isn't it, comparing them to World
9 War II Nazis?
10 A. You must understand the situation. One side called the other
11 Ustasha and the other side called the others Chetniks. That was the
12 usual way of referring to the other side at the time. It was not
13 derogatory. It was just a normal term that was used.
14 Q. Serbs also called themselves Chetniks, though, don't they, in
15 terms of there being Chetnik units?
16 A. No, I'm telling you the Muslims called all the Serbs Chetniks and
17 the Serbs called all the Muslims Ustasha, for the most part.
18 Q. So it was simply to say that there were Serbs who called
19 themselves Chetniks?
20 A. At that time, it didn't mean anything derogatory. It was just a
21 way of designating the side you were on.
22 Q. But when the person said, if there were Ustasha there they must
23 be crazy, he was recognising, wasn't he, that it must have been extremely
24 terrible situation for any Muslims who were in Sikiric with bombs falling
25 on them, et cetera. Would that be correct?
1 A. It's possible that's what he meant but I don't know what he
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Richardson?
4 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, the witness has already answered
5 the question but clearly that was a question that called for speculation.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't agree with you at all. That's why I
7 allowed it. I knew what your objection would be but that's -- it's the
8 witness's understanding of what the words uttered by the other person
10 MS. RICHARDSON: Fine, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: So let's move.
12 MR. JONES:
13 Q. Mr. Okanovic, you told us on Friday that you at the time knew
14 that the Muslims were desperately short of food, the Muslims on the other
15 side of the Drina.
16 A. I didn't know that but I assumed that was the case.
17 Q. [Microphone not activated] you aware at the time that at
18 Bratunac, Serbs, even including civilians and including civilian women,
19 were blocking aid convoys bound for Srebrenica, in order to deny them
21 A. I don't know that.
22 Q. Right. I just want to go back to the planes briefly. The planes
23 you told us on Friday flew down from the direction of Bratunac and you
24 showed how they went over the road from Bratunac. Would it be correct to
25 say that they were close to the Drina pretty much the whole time that you
1 were observing them?
2 A. I think they were taking off somewhere near Bratunac. There was
3 some kind of auxiliary airport built there.
4 Q. You're aware of an airfield, there being an impromptu airfield in
5 Bratunac at that time?
6 A. I think there was one. I didn't see it.
7 Q. Were you also aware that planes were flying from Serbia proper
8 over into Bosnia, in this action?
9 A. No.
10 Q. No they weren't flying from Serbia or you weren't aware?
11 A. They weren't flying from there because at that point we were
12 angry with our forces for not helping or for not coming to the Drina
13 later on to protect us because we were afraid. And that's why we
14 organised those village guards, as I said. In the municipality we
15 protested against our own leaders who did nothing, although there was no
16 cause, as it turned out, for us to fear because nothing actually
18 Q. Thank you. It was really just to establish this: That these
19 planes you saw, isn't it right that when you were observing them they
20 were either above you at one point in Vrhpolje or in your village or
21 above the Drina or above Sikiric? They were in that area?
22 A. It's a small area, and when it was turning round, it flew above
23 us. Also, there were being shot at and probably that was the reason why
24 they fled to this side. At one point, I thought one of the planes had
25 been hit and maybe it was hit. I don't know.
1 Q. And the planes were clearly audible, weren't they, were they were
2 even over Sikiric?
3 A. Yes. It's nearby.
4 Q. Simply this: That you could hear them one kilometre away in
5 Vrhpolje when they were flying over Sikiric; is that correct?
6 A. Yes, yes.
7 Q. And isn't it right that this was from around 9.00 in the morning
8 onwards, that at least a plane or planes were flying above Sikiric?
9 A. From time to time, yes. Not continuously. But intermittently.
10 Q. All right. You told us on Friday that you first saw houses
11 burning and then planes arriving afterwards. How many houses had you in
12 fact noticed as burning before a plane arrived? Can you estimate?
13 A. I don't recall now.
14 Q. You can't excludes the possibility, can you --
15 A. The houses that had been set on fire in the morning were burning
16 throughout this time. I don't recall any houses being set on fire later.
17 Q. But do you accept that a certain number of houses might have
18 started burning after the planes arrived?
19 A. I wouldn't say that was the case, no.
20 Q. You can't tell us how many houses you saw burning before planes
22 JUDGE AGIUS: He answered that question, Mr. Jones, already, I
24 MR. JONES:
25 Q. Also just to clarify one matter. On Friday, you were shown a
1 shot from this video and you could see a plane drop a bomb into the woods
2 and you said the plane has dropped bombs in the woods. Just to confirm,
3 that was -- you were referring just to that particular still of the
4 video, correct? It's not as if all the bombs were being dropped in the
6 A. Yes. It doesn't mean that all the bombs were dropped there. I
7 took shots of almost all of the bombs that were dropped.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: So that answers also your previous question as to
9 how many bombs were dropped on that day, Mr. Jones. More or less.
10 MR. JONES: We can go back and count all of them.
11 Q. As far as the number of planes that were flying above Sikiric
12 that day, we've had reference to a biplane and to another plane. Isn't
13 it a fact that there were more than two planes, but in fact three or four
14 planes that you observed that day? Did you recall that it was only two
15 or could it have been more?
16 A. I only saw one in the air, and I tell you, at the time I was
17 making the videotape, I didn't even notice that the planes were
18 different. It was only later on when I looked at the tape that I saw
19 that the planes were different. At the time, I didn't pay attention to
20 what kind of plane it was. It was only later on I saw that they were
21 different planes.
22 Q. Okay. Thank you. Now you also mentioned an armoured vehicle on
23 the Serb side, rather on the side of Serbia proper, which was also
24 shooting in the afternoon. I want to ask you, you noticed that in the
25 afternoon but do you exclude the possibility that it was firing from that
1 position before then and that you had simply not noticed it? Would that
2 be possible?
3 A. I'm certain it wasn't there earlier and I'm sure it arrived from
4 the Bosnian side. It wasn't there either before or after.
5 Q. So it's an armoured vehicle which arrived from the Bosnian side,
6 took up a position on the side of Serbia and then shot back towards
7 Sikiric? Is that your evidence?
8 A. I don't know what type of vehicle it was and whether it was an
9 armoured vehicle. It was quite far away. It is on my videotape and if
10 you can use the tape to recognise the type of vehicle, well that's fine,
11 but I can't.
12 Q. Okay, well we may come to that because there is reference to a
13 tank, in fact, on your video. That the child is saying, "There is a
14 tank." If you recall that.
15 A. That's possible. But when the child said it was a tank, probably
16 the child thought all vehicles were tanks or vehicles of that type. I
17 really wouldn't know.
18 MR. JONES: I think while we are on the subject we may as well
19 look at that part of the video. I think it's the very end.
20 [Videotape played]
21 JUDGE AGIUS: For the record we are looking at 51 -- we started
22 the video rolling at 51.30.
23 [Videotape played]
24 MR. JONES:
25 Q. It's that section of the video, isn't it?
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, and the video was stopped at 53.08.
2 MR. JONES:
3 Q. And the child says there is a tank.
4 A. I can hear those comments, but I don't know whether it was a
6 Q. Okay. We've actually finished with that video for the time being
7 and probably for good, P316.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Jones.
9 MR. JONES:
10 Q. You also said on Friday that you didn't think that there were
11 Bosnian Serb soldiers based in Bjelovac or Sikiric. Now would you agree
12 that that was purely an assumption on your part based on the fact that it
13 was a small village and you didn't see the point?
14 A. I didn't see any. Those are assumptions. I know that they were
15 undisciplined and didn't respect their guard duty and I assumed that they
16 were not in Bjelovac.
17 Q. You're aware that Bjelovac is on the road from Skelani to
18 Bratunac, isn't it?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Would you agree that it's the only road or the only direct road
21 connecting those two places and that it goes all along the Drina past all
22 the villages?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And were you aware at the time that there were VRS brigades in
25 both Skelani and Bratunac?
1 A. I know about Bratunac, but as for Skelani, that's a bit further
2 away and I have no idea.
3 Q. Were you aware in December of 1992 that there was a brigade in
5 A. I don't really know about military units. I know there were
6 troops there but I don't know what kind of unit it was.
7 Q. And how many kilometres is it from Bjelovac to Bratunac?
8 A. Five kilometres, four or five.
9 Q. And would you agree, having served in the military and knowing
10 perhaps something of those things, that the road, that road on the Drina
11 was of considerable strategic significance at that time?
12 A. Probably.
13 Q. But in fact you never went to Bjelovac during 1992, did you?
14 A. No, I didn't.
15 Q. Isn't the reason why you didn't go because there was shooting
16 going on over in that area the whole time and it was considered very
17 dangerous? Sorry, you said [B/C/S spoken] but it wasn't interpreted. If
18 that could be interpreted. If you could repeat.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. [Microphone not activated]
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it was unsafe.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
22 MR. JONES: Thank you.
23 Q. Can you give us any idea of the frequency that you would hear
24 shooting on the ordinary side of the Drina? Was it on a weekly basis,
25 monthly basis, daily basis?
1 A. While I was there, it was on a daily basis.
2 Q. And that's from April 1992, from the start of the war, until
3 December 1992?
4 A. Yes. There was also shooting when some kind of actions were
5 being carried out, but there was also shooting for no reason at all.
6 People celebrating being rowdy, they would throw bombs in the River
7 Drina. People behaved irresponsibly.
8 Q. And in Vrhpolje, or in your area in any event, you were very much
9 aware, weren't you, that Serbs were sending their families out of the
10 area precisely because it was a war zone?
11 A. Nobody sent anyone from Vrhpolje.
12 Q. Not from Vrhpolje but the people were coming from the other side
13 of the Drina over to Serbia to evacuate their families because it wasn't
14 considered safe there.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. In fact would you agree, if you know, that probably most people,
17 most Serbian families, on the other side of the Drina sent their women
18 and children away at the start of the war? Sent them over to Serbia?
19 A. In the beginning, yes, but later on, they came back.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Ms. Richardson?
21 MS. RICHARDSON: Just for clarification purposes the other side
22 of the Drina seems a rather large area to me. If we can pinpoint, if Mr.
23 Jones is able to, exactly what areas he is referring to. If we are just
24 referring to the other side then it seems a fairly large area to cover.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Correct, yes. Mr. Jones, I think if you abided by
1 what Ms. Richardson is suggesting, we would be in a position, in a better
2 position, to understand exactly the extent of your question and of the
3 answer that we got from the witness.
4 MR. JONES: Yes.
5 Q. When I refer to the other side of the Drina, I'm referring
6 perhaps -- tell me if you understood me or not, to the villages from
7 Bratunac downwards towards Skelani which were across the river from you
8 and of which you were aware; in other words, Bjelovac, I suppose
9 Fakovici, and --
10 A. I can only speak about the area parallel to Vrhpolje. A few
11 families, not all of them, but a few families, crossed over before the
12 war started and later on they went back.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: I think that's clear enough. Thank you.
14 MR. JONES: Thank you, yes.
15 Q. Including families from Bjelovac?
16 A. Certainly, yes, but I don't know any specific particular family
17 from Bjelovac who crossed over the Drina with their families.
18 Q. Now, during 1992, in this period which we have been considering
19 when you were hearing shots from the other side of the Drina but not
20 venturing over there, did you nonetheless see tanks, transporters and
21 other military hardware travelling back and forth on that road?
22 A. I didn't observe that. I have no idea. It wasn't an area where
23 there was a lot of army communication. I don't know.
24 MR. JONES: I wonder if the witness could be shown Defence
25 Exhibit D255, with the usher's assistance, please. For the record, the
1 ERN is 02158988 to 02158997. It's a document of the Office of the
2 Military Prosecutor of the VRS dated 13 October 1994.
3 Q. And I'd ask you, Mr. Okanovic, to turn to a page which ends 8997,
4 look at the top right-hand corner, 02158997. Do you see that?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Do you see the name Pejic Milorad, in capitals, halfway down?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And that refers, doesn't it, to him as a member of the Armoured
9 Mechanised Company in Bjelovac and we see the date is the 14th of
10 September 1992, that an incident occurred. Do you see all that?
11 A. Yes. I see that.
12 Q. So I return to my question in the hope that seeing that seeing
13 that, seeing that apparently there was an armoured mechanised company in
14 Bjelovac might have jolted your memory as to whether you did see tanks
15 and transporters across the Drina in Bjelovac and Sikiric during the
16 course of 1992.
17 A. No. I'm not familiar with this case. If I'd seen any of that, I
18 would have taped it, but I'm sure I didn't see anything.
19 Q. Do you know Nikola Petrovic from Bjelovac?
20 A. Perhaps if I saw the person, I'd recognise the person, but the
21 name doesn't ring a bell. I knew a lot of people in Bratunac because I
22 lived there for a while. I'm not sure if I know what his position was,
23 but certainly the name tells me nothing.
24 Q. In relation to that, if we were to show you houses in Bjelovac
25 and ask you who their owners would be, that's not something you could
1 help us with, would it?
2 A. That would be very difficult, very difficult.
3 Q. Now, going back to just a few more questions on the action on the
4 14th of December 1992, you told us how fighting between Serbs and
5 Muslims, as you assumed, went on all day. Was it your understanding that
6 this wasn't a walkover but a fierce, two-way fight which therefore lasted
7 all day?
8 A. It wasn't fierce. It was quite a laugh. It was completely
9 disorganised on both sides. I don't know.
10 Q. So again when you said that it was Muslim forces who were
11 involved in Bjelovac on the 14th of December 1992 that again was an
12 assumption on your part wasn't it based on the fact that it was a Serb
13 village and you couldn't imagine Serbs attacking Serbs?
14 A. First of all, it was not a Serb village. It used to be a mixed
15 village before the war. Once the war began, they split up and then the
16 Serbs remained in the village. I assume it was the Serbs who remained in
17 the village but I can't confirm that either. If the Serbs were the ones
18 who remained, that means that the Muslims were the ones who attacked them
19 because there would not have been anyone else around to attack.
20 Q. And that's consistent, that assumption is consistent with Muslim
21 civilians going into Bjelovac rather than forces or troops, would you
23 A. I don't think I understand your question, I'm sorry.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
25 MR. JONES: I can rephrase it.
1 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I object on the basis that this is
2 a question that calls for speculation by the witness. I think he's
3 already testified that there was fighting and he doesn't know who was
4 involved and to put the question to him about Muslim civilians going into
5 the village, I think it calls for speculation.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: I think --
7 MR. JONES: If we are all clear then if he doesn't know who was
8 involved then --
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Objection sustained and in any case, I don't think
10 you can go around this, Mr. Jones. I mean you have already got more than
11 one statement on this matter from the witness already.
12 MR. JONES: Yes, thank you, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
14 MR. JONES:
15 Q. Now you told us that you assumed it was Serbs who remained in
16 Bjelovac, not Muslims. Can you explain why you made that assumption?
17 A. I made that assumption based on what I heard on the radio, on
18 what people said. Stuff like that, nothing special.
19 Q. Weren't you --
20 A. Secondly, these Bosnian Serbs would cross the Drina to go and get
21 food. That sort of thing. This means that there were Bosnian Serbs on
22 the other side and not Muslims.
23 Q. Wasn't it much more positive information you received than that?
24 Weren't you in fact aware that there was ethnic cleansing of the Muslims
25 in their villages all along the Drina at the start of 1992 and that the
1 Muslims had been expelled?
2 A. There was ethnic cleansing on both sides. Where there were
3 Muslims there were no Serbs and vice versa. That's as far as I knew.
4 Q. One final question on the action the 14th of December 1992. As
5 to how each individual house got damaged, you're not able to say, are
6 you, whether rather than being deliberately set on fire, they were either
7 damaged by a bomb from a plane or damaged by a zolja, by some other
8 means, other than human agency. That's not something you can say, is
9 it -- is it?
10 A. You're quite right.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. What's your objection?
12 MS. RICHARDSON: Well, Your Honour my objection is to the
13 reference to the bomb. I think the witness has already testified that he
14 did not see a bomb cause damage to the houses and they were in fact
15 burning prior to the bomb. So my objection is solely with respect to
16 that part of the question.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Yes, thank you, Ms. Richardson. I
18 think you've made your point and it's a valid point. At the same time,
19 no harm done because the witness's answer, as I expected it to be, does
20 not really throw much light on what could have caused the damage or the
21 fire. Yes. Let's continue.
22 MR. JONES: Yes, I think I do not to clarify on that subject.
23 Q. You're not excluding the possibility that bombs caused damage to
24 property --
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Now we are in the realm of pure speculation. I
1 mean, he's told you that he can't tell.
2 MR. JONES: Okay, that's fine, Your Honour. It's a distinction.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: If he can not tell, he cannot include or exclude
4 any possibility.
5 MR. JONES: That's fine, thank you, Your Honour.
6 Q. Now, isn't it true that in fact you filmed more than the scenes
7 which we saw on Friday, that in fact you started filming area at about a
8 quarter to nine and that we haven't seen that section of the video?
9 A. All that was recorded has been shown.
10 MR. JONES: We are going to show the witness part of P428. It's
11 already a Prosecution exhibit. We have added just for convenience
12 subtitles and we have a transcript as well of that section, which we will
13 distribute the transcript and we realised perhaps belatedly but that
14 although this is a Prosecution exhibit, we should make copies of the DVD
15 with the subtitles for the parties and we will certainly do that in the
16 next day or so.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you and if you want to give it a Defence
18 exhibit number, you are free to do so.
19 MR. JONES: Yes, thank you.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: There is nothing impeding that.
21 MR. JONES: Thank you, Your Honour. We will play this first bit.
22 Q. And if you could have a look, Mr. Okanovic, and see if you recall
23 that that's also footage which you shot.
24 [Videotape played]
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I may make a comment. It's
1 clear there are houses on fire but they are not firing yet.
2 MR. JONES:
3 Q. Do you recognise that as being shot from your -- as being filmed
4 from your house, from the building in front of your house?
5 A. This is very difficult for me to pin down in terms of location,
6 but I assume it must be the same camera. I assume I was the one who
7 taped this or it may have been someone else too but what is quite obvious
8 is that the planes have not taken off yet here. But it must have been
9 me. I was the one who taped this, because I was the one with the radio
10 and the voices that we have just heard are talking over the radio.
11 So now that I've analysed the situation I can say that I was the
12 one who taped it. And it is only now that they are saying something
13 about planes being about to take off. This is from Bratunac, from the
14 centre. That much is obvious.
15 Q. We will play on in a moment and I'll have some questions to ask
16 about it. You might also recognise the video perhaps from the brief
17 segment we saw of what looked like a western or some film which appears
18 briefly. But in any event, if you could -- if that is what you filmed,
19 then I'll have some questions after we finish playing it. Sorry, that is
20 the end.
21 [Videotape played]
22 MR. JONES:
23 Q. Firstly it's right, isn't it, that the people we hear speaking
24 are Serbs as one can tell from the context, the content from the use of
25 the Ekavian dialect and from the hard ch?
1 A. I assume they were Serbs, yes. Positive.
2 Q. And the -- what you recorded you heard on the radio, would this
3 be the walkie-talkie device which you had with you or some other device?
4 A. It was the walkie-talkie.
5 Q. And as an expert in radio communications, hearing the quality,
6 the slight echoes and what not, could you confirm that this is
7 interception of a military communication by radio?
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I think -- usually I would suggest, Ms.
9 Richardson, to wait until the witness answers the question but I'm
10 anticipating the objection. Yes, Ms. Richardson.
11 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, my objection is based on the fact
12 that I don't think it has been established that this witness is an expert
13 in radio communications and as such may not be able to answer this
14 question and it's if he does it's only based on any -- on speculation on
15 his part. I think that there has been no testimony that he's an expert
16 in radio communication.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, but that's only one part or one side of the
18 story maybe. Let him answer the question. Are you in a position, Mr.
19 Okanovic, to tell us whether this radio interception or radio
20 conversation that you overheard and taped basically was military
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. This was no military
24 JUDGE AGIUS: So you are excluding it being a military
25 communication? And if you are, why are you so categorical? On what
1 grounds can you be so precise, so specific?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't rule out the possibility
3 that the person speaking was someone from the army, but this was
4 certainly not a military channel because this frequency was used by ham
5 radios and these people were using ham radio frequencies and not military
6 frequencies. I'm talking about this particular conversation.
7 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour, I withdraw my question.
8 MR. JONES: I'm going to come to these points.
9 Q. Firstly, as far as the expertise which you have is concerned,
10 isn't it right that in fact you have considerable technical background
11 with radios, including ability to fix equipment and to use what I think
12 is called a goniometer? Is that correct? Can you confirm that?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And during the war, before you had the technology and the
15 expertise to eavesdrop on communications including by decoding
16 communications? Would that be correct?
17 A. You referred to goniometer a while ago. You probably don't know
18 what that means and yet you're implying that I had it. And secondly,
19 decoding, I'm not quite clear what you mean by that.
20 Q. You did catch me out. Can you explain to us what a goniometer
22 A. To put it in the simplest possible terms, for that you need to
23 have an a system of radio devices in place, a connected system with
24 antennas pointed or trained in the right direction both horizontally and
25 vertically so that it can pinpoint precise locations and these two
1 independent systems then communicate and provide accurate coordinates. I
2 mean two lines and at the point of intersection of these two lines,
3 that's where you find the radio device. So all I could do was put
4 together a directional aerial to be better able to eavesdrop on the other
5 side but I could not get a clear direction. There wasn't something that
6 I could have.
7 Q. Would you agree that that's fairly sophisticated technology and
8 that you know how to use it? If you had the equipment?
9 A. No. No. I wouldn't be able to use it. If someone trained me,
10 perhaps I could.
11 Q. Fine.
12 MR. JONES: So that helps clarify to a certain extent the
13 expertise this witness has.
14 Q. Now, going back to this conversation you told us it was on an
15 open channel, but of course the content is of a military nature, isn't
16 it? We are talking about military units and troops and attacks.
17 A. You can draw that conclusion yourself, whether yes or no. Please
18 don't make me analyse that.
19 Q. I won't ask to you analyse it but I would ask you to confirm that
20 the transcript which you have in front of you and we can replay what that
21 reflects --
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Jones, is whatever answer that the witness will
23 give you going to change the substance or the nature of the conversation?
24 MR. JONES: No, I think we do need some confirmation that the
25 transcript is accurate, that it accurately reflects what's being said.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: That's something different. It's completely
2 different to what you're asking the witness.
3 MR. JONES: My last question is for him to confirm that the
4 transcript accurately reflects what is being said. I'll ask him to do
5 that because we need to do that with a witness. We'll replay the video
6 and he can look at the transcript as we go along.
7 Q. Yes, we are going to -- in fact, just as a sort of preface we are
8 going to replay the video again, Mr. Okanovic. If you could confirm or
9 tell us if it's wrong in any way, the content of the transcript.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: How is he going to tell us whether the transcript
11 is --
12 MR. JONES: The B/C/S transcript.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Oh, I see, I see. All right. He has got a copy of
14 it, I take it?
15 MR. JONES: Yes.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Yes. Let's go -- let's proceed.
17 [Videotape played]
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if I may make a
19 comment. A while ago counsel put it to me that they were speaking
20 Ijkavian but they weren't. They spoke Ekavian, which has been noted in
21 the transcript. Therefore, these are Bosnian Serbs. That's all I wanted
22 to say.
23 MR. JONES:
24 Q. Thank you and their mentioning [B/C/S spoken] and [B/C/S spoken].
25 From your radio intercepts, are you aware or from other information, that
1 those are Serb units, [B/C/S spoken] and [B/C/S spoken]?
2 A. I don't know. Most probably.
3 Q. Do you confirm --
4 A. This is not something that I can confirm.
5 Q. You followed the transcript as we watched the clip. Do you
6 confirm that what's written there accurately reflects what is being said?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Thank you. I may come back to that.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Mr. Jones, please. Judge Eser has a
11 JUDGE ESER: Just before we go on, since certain villages are
12 mentioned, could we be shown on a map where these villages are located in
13 relation to Bjelovac.
14 MR. JONES: We did have the Prosecution map --
15 JUDGE ESER: We have a map here, yes. P536.
16 MR. JONES: Yes, P536. Can that be placed on the ELMO?
17 Actually, perhaps what is the best course is if we play the video and
18 just freeze it each time a place name comes up and the witness can point
19 it out.
20 One moment, Witness. We will ask you about the villages as we go
22 JUDGE AGIUS: I think we'll -- it will take us less time and it
23 will be easier if -- because there aren't a large number of places
24 mentioned here. So let's put the map on the ELMO, please, and let's take
25 them -- where is Pirici, please? Could you show us Pirici.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not sure.
2 MR. JONES: Could [inaudible] be permitted to assist the witness
3 since the object is just for us to --
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, of course you can.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Here, it is, Pirici.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: So the witness points to Pirici on the map, which
7 is at 35, 35 minutes to the south, at the south of Sikiric.
8 MR. JONES: There is also we just saw Bjelovacka Rijeka is
9 referred to.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This should all be part of
11 Bjelovac, as far as I know. These are mere hamlets.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. And Rijeka means a river, doesn't it?
13 Bjelovacka Rijeka.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes but I don't know exactly which
15 one it is, whether it's the one going towards Sase or this creek over
16 here. I don't know.
17 MR. JONES: [Microphone not activated] is also mentioned. Isn't
18 it right that that's also part of Sikiric? It may not appear on the map
19 but just from your knowledge, if you could tell us.
20 A. I don't know.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: So Kunjarac.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]Kunjarac, yes. There is a hill
23 right behind Bjelovac, and it should be this one. Yes, this one right
24 here. I know because there is a water works that supplies Bratunac.
25 That was built here.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: And the witness puts a spot, plots a spot on the
2 man, a circle, right above Biljaca. Thank you.
3 MR. JONES: Loznicka Rijeka is also mentioned.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Then this could be Loznicka Rijeka
6 and Bjelovacka Rijeka. If that was the name. Could be this one, because
7 Loznicka is right here. But I'm not sure about this. You must
8 understand I'm not entirely certain.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.
10 MR. JONES:
11 Q. And on this conversation, and I'm asking you based on your
12 experience as a radio ham, that you agree that what this conversation
13 reflects is aircraft being scrambled, being given coordinates and told
14 where to target?
15 A. That's obvious, isn't it.
16 Q. That's at 8.43, 8.44 in the morning, correct?
17 A. Yes. Must be.
18 MR. JONES: I've come to an end of one subject. Perhaps this
19 will be a good time?
20 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. We will have the break now. 25
21 minutes, yes. Yes, I hinted to Mr. Jones and I think he agrees with it
22 that this part of the video from whichever.
23 MR. JONES: It will be tendered.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: I would suggest to you that you tender it
25 separately as your own exhibit.
1 MR. JONES: Yes.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Together with this would be point 1. I don't know
3 the sequential number.
4 MR. JONES: I've lost track myself.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: I can't remember either. So what would be the
7 THE REGISTRAR: 271.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: D271 and the transcript would be 271.1.
9 MR. JONES: Thank you, Your Honour. And if need be, I don't
10 think there is any dispute, but we can easily show that it's part of 428.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't think that's being contested, I don't know.
12 Is that being contested, Ms. Richardson?
13 MS. RICHARDSON: No, Your Honour. Although I have to say that
14 the witness has said that there were other people videotaping and he's
15 not certain but I think it's a possibility that it's his --
16 JUDGE AGIUS: If you wants to pursue the matter, perhaps you can
17 ask him that -- is that very short clip which is obviously an
18 interruption in the video which shows part of a film that must have been
19 recorded before, if we can show it to him and he can perhaps tell us
20 about it, whether he remembers. But I got the impression that on second
21 thoughts the witness is quite sure that this video was shot by him.
22 MS. RICHARDSON: Well, so did I, Your Honour. But just so that
23 we are just to be as accurate as we can be perhaps we can ask him as well
24 if that part -- portion of the tape that shows that clip sort of confirms
25 100 per cent his --
1 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't know. We will show it to him after the
3 MS. RICHARDSON: I don't think there is any harm done in being
4 secure about this.
5 MR. JONES: The Prosecution can put questions in re-examination.
6 I don't want the Prosecution to be putting my questions in
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's resume at 11.00 sharp, thank you.
9 --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.
10 --- On resuming at 11.06 a.m.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
12 MR. JONES: Your Honour, I asked the witness to -- my apologies.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Your client hasn't sat down as yet. I understand
14 there is a problem or something you wanted to raise.
15 MR. JONES: I wanted the witness to be kept out just briefly
16 there is a clarification and an objection, if you like, about this --
17 concerning this video. Now, I listed evidence from this witness as to
18 whether the first part of the video was something which he taped or not,
19 and I asked questions and he eventually, it's page 29, line 20 --
20 JUDGE AGIUS: He gave the impression --
21 MR. JONES: Yes, in fact the end of it was "I analysed the
22 situation. I can say I was the one who taped it."
23 JUDGE AGIUS: That's how I read it.
24 MR. JONES: At the close of the first -- before the first break,
25 my point, which I rose was simply a technical point that this extract was
1 an extract of a Prosecution exhibit - in other words, there is P428 and
2 we had just taken a bit of it and put subtitles on it. And it was simply
3 to find out whether the Prosecution contested that in order to avoid the
5 At that point, my learned friend, Ms. Richardson, sought to
6 revisit the area of whether this witness was sure that he had taped that
7 part of the video. Completely different question, firstly, sought to put
8 a question which is better saved for re-examination as to whether he's
9 sure. But, worse, suggested to the witness, because she said, what Ms.
10 Richardson said is he's not certain but it's a possibility that it's his,
11 as to that extract. So in other words, misstated the evidence because
12 that's not the evidence; but then clearly suggested to this witness that
13 they don't -- the Prosecution doesn't want him to be sure that he taped
14 that clip. Certainly the witness hearing that might think, perhaps I
15 shouldn't be so sure about this.
16 It's completely inappropriate. It amounts to trying to discuss
17 the evidence before -- in front of the witness and I've had the sense to
18 keep the witness out when we discuss the evidence and I trust that my
19 learned friends won't do anything like that again because it could
20 contaminate the evidence this witness if he gets the impression that he
21 should be unsure.
22 If Ms. Richardson wants to put questions in re-examination that's
23 the appropriate moment for it.
24 I wanted to state that objection on the record firstly, but also
25 because we will now - because the Prosecution hasn't been clear about
1 this - we will demonstrate that this is part of P428. We can even do it
2 without the witness although we I think we should do it with the witness
3 simply by cueing that one part of the anomalous part of the video where
4 there is the scene from some film and show that that's on P428 and
5 continues on the rest of the video which we saw in P316.
6 I want to make that completely clear because I don't want my
7 learned friend popping up and objecting and suggesting any more to this
8 witness that maybe he didn't film this section. That's not the exercise.
9 The exercise is simply to show that our exhibit is part of P428. As I
10 said, we don't even really need the witness for that demonstration.
11 So I would ask my learned friend not to do anything like that
12 again and also not to, as happened one or twice this morning, interrupt
13 witnesses when they are answering. Your Honour has been quite clear
14 that --
15 JUDGE AGIUS: I haven't allowed Ms. Richardson to interrupt, in
16 any case. Yes, and I think as regards the point raised, yes what are
17 your comments?
18 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour I'll keep it brief. First of all, I
19 think it's -- since we are a number of us are from adversarial systems
20 when an objection is -- when a question is posed that is objectionable it
21 is the right of the Prosecution to raise to his feet, to not pop but to
22 raise to its feet and lodge an objection to the Court. And Your Honour,
23 I have been quite, I think, mindful when you have indicated to me not to
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's skip this part.
1 MS. RICHARDSON: Secondly, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: I think that is under control.
3 MS. RICHARDSON: Secondly Your Honour, I would just say with
4 respect to my response regarding our objection to the video, it was in
5 direct response to Your Honour's question if the Prosecution was
6 objecting. And I think it was in this discourse that I indicated that I
7 had some concerns about portions of the tape and just to ensure that this
8 was in fact the videotape of the witness. Because I did not recollect as
9 accurately as Mr. Jones just pointed out, clearly because he looked at
10 LiveNote that the witness was emphatically certain that it was his.
11 So I was trying to simply get to that point and not in any way to
12 influence the witness's testimony. I think this witness is -- will be
13 very honest about that. So I in no way tried to influence his testimony.
14 When Your Honour is finished, I'd like to raise a point myself on another
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. In actual fact the only problem is that you
17 should have stopped the moment I pointed out to you that the witness had
18 earlier on in his testimony made it clear that he recollected -- he
19 remembered this video to have been shot by him.
20 But anyway, I consider the chapter closed. And if you have any
21 other matter to -- you would like to raise please do it now.
22 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, Your Honours. My the point that I'd like
23 to raise is a matter that I observed myself during the time that we were
24 in recess when counsel, Mr. Jones, attempted to access the computer of
25 the legal officer, which I think is inappropriate behaviour for either of
1 these parties.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Which legal officer?
3 MS. RICHARDSON: The legal officer in front of you, Your Honour.
4 I'm pointing it out to the Court Your Honour so everybody can be
5 aware that I think, first of all, that this is inappropriate behaviour
6 and I don't think that this should have been attempted and not saying Mr.
7 Jones was able to access it, but he did attempt to. And I did raise the
8 matter with him that I thought that was not a good idea.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Is this your? What happened? One moment, Mr.
11 MR. JONES: May I respond, Your Honour?
12 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, let me hear --
13 MR. JONES: Your Honour, may I respond?
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Jones.
15 MR. JONES: Can I say this is an absolutely scandalous accusation
16 that the Prosecution is making. It's the sort of tit-for-tat, it seems,
17 for the fact that I raised a proper matter. But I'm practically lost for
18 words because I can't believe the Prosecution would actually try --
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Jones, tell us what happened because she made a
20 very serious accusation.
21 MR. JONES: Yes, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: So it's not true tell us what your version of it.
23 MR. JONES: Yes, Your Honour. After the after the break we
24 realised that we didn't have access to LiveNote. Because of using the
25 videos I couldn't have LiveNote here. It hadn't been connected on that
1 computer I needed to check precisely what the witness had said on this
2 subject of the video. I went to the registry bench, thinking perhaps I
3 could look there on LiveNote. I realised it was inappropriate and I went
4 over to the stenographers instead. The stenographers were here in the
5 courtroom. Ms. Richardson was here. Ms. Henry-Frijlink was here. They
6 were two feet away from me. I said I'm going to check LiveNote on the
7 Registry bench. Ms. Richardson did in fact say, I don't think that's
9 I immediately went over, as the stenographers can confirm, the
10 gentleman in the corner, and I said can you please check this reference
11 and he very kindly obliged.
12 As I left the courtroom, I saw the legal officer and I said to
13 her, By the way I was going to try to get LiveNote on your computer and I
14 realised I shouldn't do so. I informed her specifically during the break
15 that I had briefly floated in the direction of her computer and then
16 thought better of it and gone to the stenographer. The stenographer can
17 confirm that he helped me find that section of the transcript. Anyone
18 can confirm that I didn't touch the computer and the fact that Ms.
19 Richardson has raised it is really beneath her and beneath me. I'm
20 frankly scandalised.
21 MS. RICHARDSON: May I respond.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Richardson.
23 MS. RICHARDSON: Certainly this is not a tit-for-tat situation.
24 In fact I approached the usher prior to us coming into the courtroom and
25 told her I was going to raise the matter and that I did not want the
1 witness to be brought in. I raised the matter with the senior trial
2 attorney, Your Honour, Mr. Wubben, and we decided we would raise this
3 matter. And I had no idea that Mr. Jones was going to raise the matter
4 that he did. So it's certainly not a tit for tat. And Mr. Jones was
5 poised at the computer when I indicated to him this was not a good idea
6 and there were witnesses here, Your Honour, who can testify to that.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Thank you. We are suspending the --
8 MR. JONES: Your Honour, may I say just one thing. If I were
9 going to accuses the computer of your legal officer, to do that in front
10 of two members of the Prosecution bench, in front of a lot of witnesses
11 would be, frankly, completely absurd. There is an absolute storm in a
12 tea cup. I briefly drifted over, thinking I could check the LiveNote,
13 because I was in a hurry to find out what the transcript was. I went
14 over and got it from another source. I think it's deeply unfair and
15 deeply unprofessional for Ms. Richardson --
16 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I --
17 JUDGE AGIUS: It's finished. No more arguments, please, Mr.
18 Jones and Ms. Richardson. The matter is closed for the time being. We
19 are going out to discuss it very briefly. We will be back in about two
21 --- Break taken at 11.16 a.m.
22 --- On resuming at 11.19 a.m.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Jones, which one of the stenographers did you
24 speak with?
25 MR. JONES: The gentleman.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: The gentleman, all right.
2 So I think that you will need to answer our question and at the
3 same time keep typing.
4 So you heard what Mr. Jones said earlier on.
5 THE COURT REPORTER: Yes, I did.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: And do you confirm his statement?
7 THE COURT REPORTER: Yes, he came over and asked to see
8 the LiveNote.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: And? Yes. And what happened?
10 THE COURT REPORTER: I showed him the LiveNote and he wrote in
11 longhand what he was reading on the screen.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: And at the time, who was present in the courtroom?
13 THE COURT REPORTER: I'm sorry, I can't remember.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you remember Mr. Jones approaching the legal
16 THE COURT REPORTER: No.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: You don't. And do you remember an exchange of
18 words between Ms. Richardson and Mr. Jones?
19 THE COURT REPORTER: No, I don't.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Did you see Mr. Jones at any time touching or using
21 any of the -- desktops or notebooks that we have here?
22 THE COURT REPORTER: No, I didn't.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I think at this point in time, the
24 matter rests here. However, we would like to make it clear that if
25 either of you have got a problem and you need to access the LiveNote
1 because it is not readily available on the system that you have at your
2 disposal, that you approach either the Registrar or the other party for
3 that matter, but that you do not try to use any of the sets that we have
4 here, particularly the legal officer attached to Chamber, of course, who
5 is here at our disposal and not at your disposal. However we are
6 satisfied that nothing really wrong did occur on this occasion.
7 MR. JONES: Thank you, Your Honour. I first went to that laptop
8 and there wasn't LiveNote on there.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: You won't find it. I was trying to explain to --
10 outside that the Registrar's would be the last laptop I would approach
11 for LiveNote because usually they are doing other work, like monitoring
12 the documents and other stuff.
13 MR. JONES: May I even say just two further points. I actually
14 even looked at the Prosecution and said generally can anyone help me with
15 LiveNote and I realised it wasn't appropriate or they weren't going to
16 help me and I went to that gentleman over there. And secondly, can I
17 just say, from where I come from, there is a code of honour and decency
18 and professional courtesy and one doesn't make scurrilous comments about
19 one's colleagues at the Bench without just cause.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, all right. It's finished. I'm not going to
21 hear about this. I'm not going to hear more about this. Ms. Richardson,
22 finished. The matter is closed. So let's bring in the witness and we
24 MR. JONES: Yes, thank you.
25 [The witness entered court]
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. My apologies to you, Mr. Okanovic, for having
2 kept you longer than we had indicated earlier on. We had a technical and
3 procedural matter that we needed to discuss, which was of no interest --
4 would not have been of any interest to you. So we finished with that and
5 we can now continue. And hopefully finish today.
6 MR. JONES: Yes, I should be very brief, actually.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Yes.
8 MR. JONES: Apologies from me, too, Mr. Okanovic for you being
9 unduly delayed in coming back here.
10 Q. I'm simply going to show you a clip of video in which you may
11 recognise that there is a segment with what appears to be a film,
12 possibly a western, which appears briefly and then it carries on. Just
13 to confirm that it's the same video that we saw this morning. So if we
14 could just play that now.
15 [Videotape played]
16 MR. JONES: Actually, we'll keep playing because it continues.
17 [Videotape played]
18 MR. JONES:
19 Q. Do you recognise that as being again the footage which you were
20 shown, in fact P316 which starts at 9.23? Do you recognise it's the
21 footage that you shot?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. All right. Thank you.
24 MR. JONES: It's just to say that that is Exhibit -- that's P428.
25 Just for Your Honour's benefit so it's clear where that comes from,
1 unless the Prosecution contests that.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Just one question. This 428 and 316, were they
3 originally one video or two separate videos? Because -- I think it's the
4 Prosecution that can help us on this.
5 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, if I may. Apparently this, the
6 first portion of this video was seized from one individual or taken from
7 one particular institution. The portion that I showed yesterday was
8 taken from -- was taken from another individual who has been a witness in
9 this case. So it appears as though that the video was made - and perhaps
10 the witness can give us more information about that - the video was made
11 and there were copies, evidently, by various people made of his video
12 which is why it ended up in different hands which is -- which also
13 explains why we received them from different individuals at different
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Mr. Okanovic, you heard my question and you
16 also heard the explanation forthcoming from Ms. Richardson. What's your
17 version of -- on this? Was this originally one video recording which has
18 ended up in bits and pieces in the hands of several persons? What
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really don't know. I don't have
21 the original. I thought my children had erased it. However, somebody
22 evidently took it from me without my knowledge, and what happened to it,
23 I really don't know. I do not have the original.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: And that part, that very short clip, one second
25 maximum, two seconds, from a film, which seems to be a western or
1 something like that it was suggested. Do you remember that?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No but I can tell you how it's
3 possible. It's a small VHS tape and someone might have recorded
4 something on it previously, and then -- if you interrupt the filming and
5 there is a short break, and so the previous recording is left there. I
6 have no other explanation.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. And you don't remember that film on the reel,
8 on the tape?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Yes, Mr. Jones.
11 MR. JONES: We won't go into it here, but we do have chain of
12 custody details for P316 and P428 and we also have a Rule 68 issue as far
13 as that's concerned. But I won't go into that now.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: No, I don't think we should go into that in the
15 presence of the witness in any case. Yes, let's proceed.
16 MR. JONES: Yes.
17 Q. Now on a different subject you were asked on Friday about a radio
18 conversation in which the husband of a lady who had gone missing in
19 Bjelovac came to you and you referred to conversations you had with
20 someone who used the code name Gazda. Do you recall that, giving that
21 evidence? Sorry, you do need to give a verbal answer.
22 A. [No interpretation] [Realtime transcript read in error: "Nerpgs
24 Q. Firstly whether Gazda was in fact Naser Oric, that was an
25 assumption that you and perhaps others made; correct?
1 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters can't hear the witness.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, let's clear this. Witness, when you answer,
3 please try to -- yes exactly. To be as near the microphone as possible.
4 And I would just for the record point out that his answer to the
5 previous question, not to the last question, when it was pointed out to
6 him that he needs to give a verbal answer, page 49, line 5. As his
7 answer, on page -- on line 6, we have "nerpgs nerpgs" which I don't know
8 what it means but I definitely heard him say DA, as I heard him say DA
9 also in reply to the last question.
10 In order to avoid any possibility of having -- being mistaken in
11 this I would suggest that you put the question again, Mr. Jones, or I can
12 read out the question to the witness myself.
13 MR. JONES: That's fine. I can deal with it briefly.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: You were asked, Mr. Okanovic, firstly whether Gazda
15 was in fact Naser Oric that was an assumption that you and perhaps others
16 made. Is that correct? And I heard you say DA, reply DA. Did you reply
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Jones.
20 MR. JONES:
21 Q. An assumption, but something you didn't know for sure?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. It was put to you by the Prosecution that you believed Gazda was
24 Naser Oric. I'd suggest that's not the way to put it. It was at most a
25 working hypothesis, wasn't it, that perhaps he was Naser Oric?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Wouldn't it be right to say that the identity of Gazda wasn't
3 particularly important to you on your side because he was simply a point
4 of contact on the Muslim side?
5 A. No. It was quite obvious that this was an important person.
6 Q. You never heard Gazda refer to himself as Naser or Naser Oric,
7 did you?
8 A. No, I didn't.
9 Q. Isn't it right also that you heard people on the radio say on one
10 or more occasions, you're Naser or you're Naser Oric, but he never
11 confirmed that? Gazda never confirmed it?
12 A. That's right. That's what I heard.
13 Q. Finally, I think this is clear but you didn't know Naser Oric
14 before the war, did you?
15 A. No, I didn't.
16 Q. And on the subject of people you knew before the war, didn't you
17 know at least one other Naser, Naser Sulejmanovic who worked with you at
18 the tile factory, Kaolin, in Bratunac?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Did you know that he was -- did you know that he was a radio
21 operator in Srebrenica during the war?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Did you know he was a radio ham or had some sort of activity
24 involving radios?
25 A. No, I don't think he was a ham radio operator.
1 Q. Now, in terms of contacting Gazda, on this occasion, it was
2 essentially missing person query, wasn't it? Someone was missing and you
3 were seeking information as to where she was. Would that be correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. I think you told us that that sort of a query was something which
6 was out on the radio the whole time because families had been split up
7 and they were trying to find each other.
8 A. Yes. But here the issue was whether the woman had jumped into
9 the Drina or whether she had been captured.
10 Q. Would you accept that you didn't contact him because you knew him
11 to be in charge of anything in particular, he was a contact albeit an
12 important one, on the Muslim side who you thought might be able to help?
13 A. I'm not sure I understand the question. He was an important
14 person over there, a person introducing himself as Gazda was the most
15 important person on the other side. So he was the only person you have
16 to communicate with about anything.
17 Q. It was really this: That you didn't know what if any
18 competencies Gazda had, did you? You don't know what he was in charge of
19 or anything. He was an important contact on the Muslim side.
20 A. I didn't know.
21 Q. Now, of course this conversation took place 13 years ago. Would
22 it be correct that you don't remember the exact words that were used by
23 you or Gazda in discussing the fate of this woman?
24 A. I can't remember word for word.
25 Q. The husband -- I don't know if you recall the name of the husband
1 now, do you?
2 A. I don't.
3 Q. Was he a friend of yours before he came and asked to use your
4 radio or asked to be put in touch through the radio? Sorry, you need to
5 give a verbal answer. You didn't know this gentleman beforehand?
6 A. No. I didn't. I certainly didn't.
7 Q. And the husband didn't indicate any desire to try and speak to
8 Gazda on the radio, did he? He didn't say let me speak to him or
9 anything like that?
10 A. You're asking me about a great many details. All I can say is I
11 don't remember. He may have; he may not have. I can neither confirm nor
13 Q. He was staying at your house, I believe, at the time, and you
14 said that he was by the radio the whole time. As far as you were
15 concerned, was he free to use the radio himself directly to speak on the
17 A. He was free to use the radio, yes.
18 Q. You never told him, "Don't touch the radio, that's mine." He was
19 free to use it?
20 A. No. Why would I? It's very simple. You just push a button and
21 you start speaking. It's nothing special.
22 Q. All right. And I think you told us that the gist of the
23 conversation was that -- with Gazda was that this woman hadn't been
24 captured as a prisoner but rather evacuated from a situation of danger
25 and that she would be returned to her own people, that that's what Gazda
1 told you? Would you accept that?
2 A. No. It was obvious that she had been captured. If she had been
3 evacuated, she would have been returned a mere several days later. So I
4 think the question is strange.
5 Q. I was actually referring to what Gazda said to you.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, you did, but you also asked him would you
7 accept that? So in answering the way he did, I can understand him
8 perfectly well.
9 MR. JONES: I can rephrase it.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: You either rephrase it or --
11 MR. JONES: Yes.
12 Q. Was the gist of what Gazda said that he had evacuated -- or not
13 he, but that she had been evacuated for her safety and would be returned?
14 A. I don't remember what he said. I only know he said she was doing
15 fine, that she was with them, and that there would be no problems. But I
16 can't recall any specific details of the conversation.
17 Q. And you learnt after her release, didn't you, that she had been
18 kept in a private house in Srebrenica, not in any sort of prison?
19 A. That's what she said.
20 Q. Now, I know you don't remember the details of this conversation,
21 but it's right, isn't it, that the -- what was said by Gazda was
22 perfectly correct, he didn't say anything menacing or unpleasant or
24 A. No. I can't say that. In this particular communication, he was
25 very correct and for the most part the other people were correct too.
1 Q. Some final questions just about radio equipment. You told us
2 about the walkie-talkie which you had. You described how it didn't have
3 much of a range particularly in mountainous terrain. Would you agree
4 with that?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And in fact the whole terrain around Srebrenica is famously hilly
7 and mountainous, isn't it?
8 A. Yes, but if I may just add something. If this device is used
9 from a hill top, then the range is quite large. If you speak from a
10 depression, from a valley, if you use the UKV range, then the range is
11 not very large because the UKV requires a certain degree of optical
12 visibility. To keep things simple, if you use it from a hill top, then
13 the range is quite large. If you use it from a depression or a valley,
14 it's in fact quite small.
15 Q. And these villages we have been discussing, Bjelovac, Sikiric,
16 Pirici, they are all in a valley, aren't they? The Drina valley.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Separated by Srebrenica by hills?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Now you mentioned that if you had a relay you could overcome this
21 difficulty in some ways and that you could, I suppose, effectively
22 transmit to the relay and then the relay could send the message on. It's
23 a technical matter, firstly.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Are you aware that the relays on the tops of the hills in that
1 area, the Srebrenica area, were destroyed by the Serbs at the start of
2 the war? Is that something you're aware of?
3 A. You're talking about the TV relay stations, but both sides built
4 their own temporary relays. There were a number of those but I'm not
5 sure about their positions.
6 Q. You can't confirm whether there were any of those in the
7 Srebrenica area in 1992, any improvised relays on the Muslim side?
8 A. They were somewhere.
9 Q. And you also said that the walkie-talkie, its range could be
10 increased if an aerial was fixed to it instead of the aerial which it
11 comes with. Isn't it right that if that's done then it essentially has
12 to be kept stationary at a location because it's a large aerial so you
13 can't walk around with it?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And as far as that antenna is concerned, that is something which
16 wouldn't be easy to come by, would it, during the war or which wasn't
17 easy to come by, in 1992?
18 A. You made it yourself.
19 Q. Thank you. No further questions?
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I thank you, Mr. Jones. Is there
21 re-examination, Ms. Richardson?
22 MS. RICHARDSON: Just briefly, Your Honour.
23 Re-examined by Ms. Richardson:
24 Q. Mr. Okanovic, you testified that you knew Naser Sulejmanovic
25 prior to the war; is that correct?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. At any point during the time that you overheard communication
3 with Gazda and any time that you spoke to him, were you under the
4 impression that that's the Naser you were speaking with?
5 A. Which Naser are you now referring to, Sulejmanovic or Oric?
6 Q. I'll rephrase the question. Was Gazda, as far as you were aware,
7 was that Naser Sulejmanovic who you worked with?
8 A. Certainly not. I knew this person well, and I was his immediate
10 Q. So --
11 A. I never heard his voice on any of the radio frequencies.
12 Q. Thank you. Now I would just like to ask you a few questions with
13 respect to the transcript that you read during the time that we were
14 watching the video and certain portions of it that -- or all of it,
15 actually, you confirmed.
16 MS. RICHARDSON: If I could ask the usher's assistance in handing
17 the B/C/S version of the transcript to the witness so that I can put just
18 a few questions to him. 271, Prosecution -- Defence Exhibit, excuse me,
20 Q. If you look at the portion which -- the portion of the
21 conversation occurs at -- let's begin with 022, the first voice. "Are
22 you heading towards Bjelovac," of course I'm reading from the English
23 version. 025 says the second voice says, "We are stopped we have stopped
24 we cannot go forward we need help urgently."
25 Were you under the impression at the time when you overheard this
1 discussion on the radio that these individuals were in fact in Sikiric or
2 in Bjelovac at 8.43, which is the time that the videotape was made?
3 A. I can't comment on that. I really don't know where they were
4 stopped. This was something you heard on the radio. So -- I don't think
5 I could possibly comment.
6 Q. And just to confirm, I'd like to point you to another portion of
7 the transcript at 0043. And you asked about the bombs being dropped and
8 whether or not this conversation had -- was in any way connected with
9 that. At 043 it says, "You heard the precise coordinates the hell.
10 Screw it take the rest there if it is there look at the map which are the
12 So it means Pirici, Bjelovacka Rijeka. Now as far as you were
13 aware, these are areas outside of the village of Sikiric?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And further down, well certainly I'll -- I'll rephrase the
16 question. With respect to where you saw the bombs being or falling, does
17 this -- is this consistent with where -- the areas that you saw the bombs
19 MR. JONES: I object to that question. Really, what the witness
20 should be asked is whether he recalls where bombs fell. To talk about
21 what's consistent with this transcript which already he said he can't
22 comment on is -- I mean it's speculative. It leads nowhere. Anything is
23 consistent, conceivably with bombs dropping there but they may have also
24 dropped on Sikiric. So he should be asked really where he saw bombs
25 dropping and then we'll get there.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: I think that's perfectly in order. I think first
2 you would need to ask the witness whether he can be specific or more
4 MS. RICHARDSON: That's fine, Your Honour. I can pose the
5 question in a different manner.
6 Q. Mr. Okanovic, whether you saw the bombs being dropped as you were
7 videotaping the plane, the planes, were you able to determine where it
8 was that those bombs fell?
9 A. They fell in different places. Some fell into the River Drina.
10 Some fell on the village further down, and some fell in the hills. The
11 area covered is a bit too large to be more specific about where each of
12 the bombs fell.
13 Q. When you said they fell on the village further down, do you mean
14 it fell on the houses themselves or in the vicinity of the houses or
15 further down from the actual houses?
16 MR. JONES: He should just be asked what does he mean by further
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Answer the question, please. And can you be
19 specific. You just said that -- in describing where you saw the bombs
20 falling, you said "on the village further down." Did you actually see
21 bombs falling on houses or in the vicinity of houses, or further -- the
22 question was further down or -- anyway, I think it's self-explanatory or
23 further away from the actual houses.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The only thing that I saw clearly
25 were bombs falling in the hills above the houses. Above Sikiric. Most
1 of the bombs fell there.
2 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour. Is the witness --
3 Q. Mr. Okanovic, have you completed your answer?
4 A. Yes.
5 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I have no further questions.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you. Judge Brydensholt do you
7 have any questions? Judge Eser has some questions for you, Mr. Okanovic.
8 Questioned by the Court:
9 JUDGE ESER: Mr. Okanovic, with regard to the village, which
10 village did you mean? I think we heard from you that Bjelovac consisted
11 of different parts and one part was Sikiric. Now, when you spoke of
12 village, which part of Bjelovac did you have in mind?
13 A. In relation to what? What exactly do you mean? What's the
14 reference to Sikiric about?
15 JUDGE ESER: We were speaking, or you have been asked where the
16 bombs fell, and you talked about a village. Now, I'm not quite clear
17 what you mean with village because Bjelovac, as you have told, consisted
18 or was composed of the centre of Bjelovac and some other places, hamlets,
19 south of Bjelovac and north of Bjelovac. Now, when you spoke of village,
20 which part did you mean?
21 A. Sikiric, Sikiric. Yes, that part. There was fire there, and
22 then the hill above that village is where most of the bombs fell.
23 JUDGE ESER: When you had testified that there was shooting going
24 on, was this shooting also only in Sikiric or also in other parts of
1 A. I really can't pinpoint the exact location. The sound was coming
2 from across the Drina but I can't tell where from exactly, and I don't
3 think I should be speculating. It was a very narrow angle of vision, too
4 narrow for me to tell precisely where it was coming from but I think some
5 of the fighting occurred in Sikiric but that's only my assumption.
6 Although there is reference here to Bjelovac and to Kunjarac but that's
7 further down. I really can't say.
8 JUDGE ESER: You testified that Bjelovac was a mixed village,
9 Muslims and Serbs. Does it mean that the mixture was within this hamlets
10 or have there been certain areas which have been mainly Serbs and others
11 which have been mainly Muslim and others which have been both? Was -- I
12 hope you got my question.
13 A. I think I did get your question, but I don't know where they were
14 respectively, but it was all mixed. This whole area next to the river
15 Drina was mixed. Muslim settlements prevailed but then there were Serb
16 settlements too but I'd be hard put to say anything more definite about
18 JUDGE ESER: Thank you, no further questions.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Judge Eser. I have got two short
20 questions a part of which I think we have already dealt with but I just
21 want to make sure of something.
22 Whenever you had radio contact, radio conversation, with this
23 Gazda that you mentioned, was it always the same voice that you heard at
24 the other end?
25 A. Yes.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. And I -- thank you. And you also gave us to
2 understand last Friday, in particular, that you also intercepted or you
3 heard conversations, radio conversations, between this Gazda and others.
4 The Gazda that you heard in conversation, in radio conversation with
5 others, was it also the same person, the same voice, or not?
6 A. Yes. Yes, the same person. Same voice.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Same voice, yes. And throughout this period, I
8 think you may have answered this question, but throughout this period,
9 did you ever come across any other radio conversation that you overheard
10 in which someone else was referred to or he referred himself to as Gazda?
11 A. No. It was always the same voice.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So that brings us to an end -- or brings
13 your testimony to an end, not us, we've still got a lot of work to do.
14 Mr. Okanovic, on behalf of Judge Brydensholt, Judge Eser and
15 myself of course, but also on behalf of the Tribunal in general, I would
16 like to thank you for having come over to give testimony in this case
17 against Naser Oric.
18 You will now be assisted by our staff, who will help you return
19 back home at the earliest opportunity, and you should not encounter any
20 problems there.
21 On behalf of everyone present also, I should like to wish you a
22 safe journey back home.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
24 [The witness withdrew]
25 JUDGE AGIUS: So, the position is we need to adjourn now.
1 Witness number 45, I don't think he enjoys any protective measures but I
2 would rather not mention the name. I take it that he has arrived? And
3 that he's being briefed -- or not briefed, proofed?
4 MR. WUBBEN: Yes, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. And that you still need tomorrow to finish
6 the proofing?
7 MR. WUBBEN: Yes, Your Honour, indeed.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: And that he will testify, start his testimony, on
9 Wednesday, in other words.
10 MR. WUBBEN: Correct, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Anything else before we adjourn?
12 MR. WUBBEN: No, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you, so tomorrow we will not be
14 sitting because of the proofing of this witness and we will reconvene on
15 Wednesday in the afternoon. I think it's this same courtroom. All
16 right. Thanks a lot. See you on Wednesday.
17 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 12.00, to
18 be reconvened on Wednesday, 11 May, 2005,
19 at 2.15 p.m.