Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 9139

1 Monday, 4 July 2005

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 3.17 p.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: So, Madam Registrar, good afternoon to you. Could

6 you call the case, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is Case

8 Number IT-03-68-T, the Prosecutor versus Naser Oric.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I thank you.

10 Mr. Oric, can you follow the proceedings in your own language?

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours,

12 ladies and gentlemen. I can follow the proceedings in my mother tongue.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, and good afternoon to you, too.

14 Appearances for the Prosecution.

15 MR. WUBBEN: Good afternoon, Your Honours, good afternoon to my

16 learned friends from the Defence. My name is Jan Wubben, lead counsel

17 for the Prosecution, I am here together with Gramsci Di Fazio,

18 co-counsel, and our case manager, Ms. Donnica Henry-Frijlink.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you and good afternoon to you and your

20 team.

21 And appearances for Naser Oric.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours, my

23 name is Vasvija Vidovic, and together with John Jones I appear on behalf

24 of Mr. Naser Oric. With us are our CaseMap manager, Mr. Geoff Roberts,

25 and our legal assistant, Ms. Adisa Mehic.

Page 9140

1 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Ms. Vidovic, and good afternoon to you

2 and your team.

3 So, Madam Registrar, you would have noticed that we started an

4 hour and a couple of minutes later than scheduled, and that's because of

5 -- we were concluding all that needed to be done before the sitting. I

6 would like you to start keeping a note starting from today - you and

7 whoever might replace you - of any time lost, and we will then tell you

8 -- you will bring that to our attention and we will tell you to credit it

9 to the Defence time.

10 The time started from 2.15, and it continues until we conclude

11 the matters that we are going to finish. All right.

12 So the first thing that I wanted to announce is that a few

13 minutes ago we filed our written decision on the Defence filings

14 following the scheduling order that we discussed, which I don't know

15 whether you have been given a copy as yet.

16 MR. WUBBEN: No, Your Honour.

17 MR. JONES: No.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I'll make sure that you will be given a

19 copy. More or less -- I mean, it's what we anticipated of course last

20 Friday, except for one thing that -- I'll be coming to this, but having

21 looked at your motion for certification, you're asking for certification

22 of our oral decision. What we did last Friday was not an oral decision;

23 it was the anticipation of what - we made it clear - was going to be a

24 written decision. So it's not the end of the world. It's something

25 which is not of significance.

Page 9141

1 Before we clear up the matter of certification, since this is

2 being filed well within the seven-day period, I want to know whether you

3 are going to stay silent on this or whether you want time to file a reply

4 because if you do not require any time to file a reply or you're prepared

5 to make submissions now or prefer to stay silent, then we can proceed

6 with our decision, which will be oral now; we're giving you an indication

7 of what we're going to decide, to be followed by a written decision later

8 on in the day at the end of the day, before the closing time of registry.

9 Yes, Mr. Wubben, don't make our lives difficult.

10 MR. WUBBEN: Your Honour, I would like to submit that we will not

11 oppose it and we will not give a written reply.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you and I really appreciate that, Mr.

13 Wubben. I told the two colleagues that I had no doubt that this is what

14 I would have -- I would hear from your mouth. So later on we will be

15 handing down a written decision, granting certification. I can also tell

16 you as from now that in the concluding part of the decision granting

17 certification we are also drawing the attention of the Appeals Chamber to

18 the urgent need to have this matter decided as early as possible. So

19 that is for your information. All right.

20 MR. JONES: Simply to explain, Your Honour, the reason why we

21 filed a request for certification on the basis of the oral decision, as

22 we characterised it, was two-fold: One, to preserve our decision because

23 we didn't want to start the Defence case without already setting in train

24 an appeal; and secondly, because as you will see, we are also applying

25 for a stay, again more formally than we did on Friday, and it didn't seem

Page 9142

1 to make sense to file a stay of proceedings pending appeal unless we had

2 initiated the appeal.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: I fully understand, Mr. Jones. What I want you to

4 do, unless you find objection to doing it, is please make a short

5 statement now that following my declaration that there was no such oral

6 decision but a written decision, that your motion applies to the written

7 decision -- same arguments apply to the written decision, and that will

8 be your motion for all intents and purposes.

9 MR. JONES: Yes. I can orally make that declaration or motion

10 and adopt the words which Your Honour has just outlined.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.

12 Which brings us to the next problem, and that rises in the wake

13 of the second motion that was filed by the Defence, namely that of the

14 staying of proceedings pending the outcome of the appeal on the decision

15 we have just -- the written decision that we have just filed a few

16 minutes ago. Again, I don't think it's the case of requiring from the

17 Defence any elaboration on the arguments that are adduced in that motion.

18 And what I would like to know is whether the Prosecution would like to

19 take a position on that motion and whether they are in a position to take

20 that position today rather than ask for -- not ask for time, it's a right

21 that you have -- than avail yourself of the time that you have, according

22 to our Rules, to reply in writing to that motion.

23 I can tell you what our preference is. Our preference is,

24 obviously, that you do not, if possible, avail yourself of that

25 possibility and that you provide us with your remarks or your response

Page 9143

1 orally now if you are going to respond in any case.

2 MR. WUBBEN: Yes, Your Honour, I will do so. And given the very

3 extraordinary circumstances of the case and also by supporting the

4 expeditious way to handle issues like this, any delay of the procedure,

5 as of course the concern of the OTP. So in that respect, I would like to

6 limit that part of the issue of the request to that specific comment by

7 us because a delay will mean that precious time is wasted -- and I don't

8 mean wasted in a negative way --

9 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no, no --

10 MR. WUBBEN: Used -- not used --


12 MR. WUBBEN: Lost. Thank you, Your Honour, much obliged. It

13 will be lost and that's why it has the concern of the OTP. The

14 alternative proposal in the motion is therefore -- sounds more reasonable

15 whenever it comes to a confirmation or a denial by the Appeals Chamber

16 later on, and that will not take into account. So rather, in that --

17 given those circumstances and the argumentation, I would prefer a

18 supporting of the alternative --

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Which alternative --

20 MR. WUBBEN: At the end, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Number 18. But your -- let's take it. The Defence

22 in the Defence in the first place requests the Trial Chamber to

23 re-consider its position and to order a stay of proceedings pending the

24 hearing of the appeal, which would also give the Defence adequate time to

25 re-consider its position in the light of the Trial Chamber's decision on

Page 9144

1 the length of time. This is part of the accused's fundamental right.

2 Then in the alternative the Defence requests the Trial Chamber

3 not to count the two weeks and four witnesses called in July 2005 as part

4 of the nine weeks and 30 witnesses allocated for the Defence to present

5 its case, and therefore to reschedule the close of the Defence case

6 accordingly.

7 Are you telling me that out of these two requests of the -- of

8 the Defence you would rather have us decide in favour of the second

9 rather than of the first?

10 MR. WUBBEN: Yes, Your Honour, and not in such a way that I would

11 plead to allow the second alternative, but I am rather opposing a first

12 and in favour of the second than the other way around. So that's my --

13 that's my oral position at this time, and I would like to confirm that in

14 one of the two coming days, in short.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: So basically what you are saying is that instead of

16 giving the Defence nine weeks, we would be giving them 11 weeks. And

17 instead of 30 witnesses, we would be giving them 33 witnesses.

18 MR. WUBBEN: No. I'm telling you that I would -- I would rather

19 -- I would rather be -- if any preference given by choice by those two,

20 it will be the second; but with a view of the second I would like to

21 confirm that in written reply within one of the two coming --

22 JUDGE AGIUS: But in the meantime we have to decide today whether

23 we stay the proceedings today and whether we continue. I have got one

24 witness here already in the corridor; I saw her being escorted to the

25 room. I suppose that Mr. Jones already has the next witness present here

Page 9145

1 in The Hague. So if we -- I can't stop you for asking for time, but I do

2 plead with you, if possible, to give us an answer here and now because we

3 have got at least two witnesses that I know of present here in The Hague.

4 I don't know if the third one is present here as well.

5 MR. JONES: He isn't.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: But at least we have got two here.

7 MR. WUBBEN: In that case, Your Honour, I oppose any delay, any

8 stop.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Jones.

10 MR. JONES: Yes. May I just briefly, Your Honour. I won't, of

11 course, outline the reasons for our application for stay because Your

12 Honour has them.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: No, they are very clear.

14 MR. JONES: Simply for the public that are following, we say that

15 in the dramatic developments of receiving directions last week we need

16 firstly time to get our house in order and we need in particular to avoid

17 calling witnesses that may not be necessary and thereby wasting four

18 witnesses and two weeks out of nine weeks and 30 witnesses. And we say

19 there's no compelling reason why the next two weeks -- why we need to sit

20 those two weeks.

21 If I might respond to Your Honour's observation, a practical one,

22 that there are two witnesses in The Hague, that of course there's a point

23 of principle here for us, that at the same time those two witnesses are

24 here and one conceivable approach might be that we sit this week with

25 those witnesses and a stay -- it would be appropriate as of the start of

Page 9146

1 next week. That's one possible suggestion.

2 And then just briefly on the difference -- or the alternative in

3 paragraph 18 of not counting the extra -- these two weeks. In effect, I

4 think it comes in some ways to the same thing, because the Appeals

5 Chamber will presumably give a ruling within four to six weeks in any

6 event by the time we --

7 JUDGE AGIUS: I can't guarantee anything on behalf of the Appeals

8 Chamber. I can assure you of one thing, and you know as much about this

9 as we do, we know probably a little bit than you do, the Appeals Chamber

10 in its various compositions is very heavily burdened at the moment, and

11 that is precisely why I have precisely -- because usually we wouldn't

12 conclude in a decision an exhortation to the Appeals Chamber to give

13 priority to this appeal rather than others. But I think that I can

14 safely - and we've discussed this at length - we can safely take the

15 liberty of addressing the Appeals Chamber in that direction, but then of

16 course it's up to the Appeals Chamber to regulate its own scheduling,

17 with obviously we cannot interfere.

18 MR. JONES: So that -- I won't make any guesses in that respect

19 then.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no.

21 MR. JONES: But the alternative proposal that the weeks and

22 witnesses not be counted against us is really a device whereby that any

23 prejudice against us is removed because that way we have these two weeks

24 free in essence and it doesn't count against us. So that's the reason

25 for that request for alternative relief.

Page 9147

1 JUDGE AGIUS: What we would like to make clear is the following,

2 that the fact that you have two witnesses here already here in The Hague

3 and prepared to start giving evidence is an argument in your favour and

4 not being used as an argument against. In fact, it would have been used

5 as an argument against you if you had come forward and said, We insist on

6 this stay of proceedings and we are not calling these first two witnesses

7 to be present here in The Hague, et cetera. So it's the other way

8 around.

9 MR. JONES: We're forced to call them --

10 JUDGE AGIUS: It's the kind of behaviour that we would expect

11 from a reasonable and respectful Defence team in any case. All right.

12 MR. JONES: I'm obliged.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: So that's it. One moment.

14 [Trial Chamber confers]

15 JUDGE AGIUS: So let's decide this orally and if you so require

16 we will follow up with a written decision. We hope that you will not

17 require it after that you've heard what we have to say. We are deciding

18 orally the motion filed earlier on today by the Defence for Naser Oric

19 called "Urgent Defence Motion For a Stay of Proceedings Pending Appeal."

20 The Trial Chamber is deciding this motion orally now, after

21 having confirmed to the parties its intention to grant by means of a

22 written decision certification granting leave for appeal of the decision,

23 written decision, which I referred to earlier on on the two Defence

24 filings following the schedule order we issued some time back.

25 What we are going to decide now is whether the Trial Chamber

Page 9148

1 should stay the proceedings or not. There are two alternatives that are

2 being put forward by the Defence in the motion. The first one is that

3 the Trial Chamber reconsiders it position and order a stay of

4 proceedings, pending the hearing of the appeal, which would also give the

5 Defence adequate time to reconsider its position in the light of the

6 Trial Chamber's decision on the length of time.

7 The alternative remedy that is being sought by the Defence is

8 that the Trial Chamber not count the two weeks and four witnesses that

9 would be called in July 2005 as part of the nine weeks and 30 witnesses

10 allocated for the Defence to present its case, and therefore to

11 reschedule the close of the Defence case accordingly.

12 The Trial Chamber, having heard -- having gone through the

13 reasons brought forward in this motion and also we've heard what the

14 Prosecution had to say, does not agree either that it should reconsider

15 its position and order a stay of proceedings pending the hearing of the

16 appeal, and as well as not to count the two weeks and four witnesses

17 called in this month as part of the nine weeks and 30 witnesses allocated

18 for the Defence to present its case.

19 The reasons are as follows: Primarily it's because we consider

20 that the reasons adduced in this motion in support of the two requests,

21 although of course they carry some weight, however they do not -- they

22 are not of enough significance in this eyes of the Trial Chamber such as

23 to outweigh the interests of justice that the -- that the Trial Chamber

24 considers as necessary in the present circumstances in order to be able

25 to proceed with the case and commence the Defence case. In other words,

Page 9149












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13 English transcripts.













Page 9150

1 these are not vexatious or superfluous reasons that have been given, but

2 they are not enough to outweigh the interests of justice to continue with

3 the case. That is the primary consideration that we have.

4 Also underlying this decision is the fact that although we hope

5 the Appeals Chamber will hand down its decision, preferably -- I mean, I

6 say it without hesitation, but as I say I cannot -- I have no control on

7 these issues, on these matters, preferably before the end of the summer

8 recess so that you will know in the meantime what the situation is and

9 the Prosecution will know, and we in particular would know. Still, there

10 is no guarantee that we will get this before August 15th. So a request

11 to order a stay of proceedings pending the hearing and determination of

12 the appeal not knowing when the appeal is going to finish might entail a

13 decision which would mean the staying of proceedings also beyond the

14 summer recess, and we don't think that that is what we ought to do.

15 The other alternative, we have the following to say: We have

16 requested the Defence to bring forward four witnesses or enough witnesses

17 to fill in the two weeks that we have starting from today until the end

18 -- until the summer recess, the two weeks that we agreed upon. We do

19 appreciate that you could have difficulty in identifying a fourth or a

20 fifth witness to bring over, considering the relative short time that

21 you've had. We do not agree that you should encounter also such problems

22 in relation to the first three witnesses, that is Madam Edina, who is

23 waiting outside, and the other two witnesses, Redzic and Dachy. As

24 regards the fourth witness, we trust judge in your good judgement and

25 sense of cooperation, and we believe that if you are in a position to

Page 9151

1 bring that person - I won't mention the name because I don't know if he

2 will be protected or not - the fourth person that we have got on the list

3 today, that if you are in a position to bring him over, you bring him

4 over.

5 What we can promise you is the following, Mr. Jones and Madam

6 Vidovic, if there is any remaining time after we finish with that

7 evidence at the 15th of July that we agreed upon, then that will be a

8 credit. We will stop, we will not force you to bring any witnesses,

9 those remaining, one, two, three, I don't know, we will not force you,

10 but please do make your utmost to bring the fourth witness if you can. I

11 mean, I know that you are responsible enough not to play games, and I

12 take your word that you won't. But it is important for us not to lose

13 time as much as we can. All right. So that is the position.

14 If you end up on the second week with your back to the wall and

15 we are satisfied that you did your best and you found -- you encountered

16 difficulties, you are not going to find us unreasonable. I don't think

17 we have ever been unreasonable with you, even though you think we are

18 unreasonable with you now. Time will prove to you that we weren't. But

19 this is the position.

20 So that is our decision. If you require it in writing, we will

21 hand it down in writing and then we'll see what the situation will be.

22 MR. JONES: Yes. Two matters really. We are doing our utmost to

23 have that witness there, the fourth witness, and I trust that we will be

24 able to bring him here. We certainly don't require that decision in

25 writing. On the other hand, I wonder if Your Honours could certify that

Page 9152

1 matter also for appeal so that that can be included globally in the

2 appeal which we will be bringing. In some ways it might be academic,

3 because by the time the Appeals Chamber rules on the matter, it might be

4 too late for the stay to be granted. But it is a matter which, it seems,

5 falls within the context of our complaint and therefore should be

6 reviewed by the Appeals Chamber.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: I think is this: I want to consider one thing, Mr.

8 Jones, that this is an area which is not virgin ground, whether or not

9 there should or should not be a stay of proceedings pending the

10 determination of appeals. And I suppose I don't need to go into the case

11 for that exists. I very much suspect that if we were to give you this

12 opportunity, that you would include it in your appeal, it may influence

13 the Appeals Chamber in the preliminary filtering process that takes place

14 of whether to go ahead with the appeal or not.

15 My suggestion to you is as follows: It will be difficult for us

16 to certify it, simply because the case law of this Tribunal is constantly

17 against staying proceedings pending the outcome of appeals decisions,

18 except of course when it is absolutely unavoidable, which is not the case

19 I think. And if we do certify it, I mean you would be trying to tie --

20 or rather, we would be trying to tie the hands of the Appeals Chamber to

21 decide an issue with extreme urgency, when we could have decided it

22 definitively for ourselves and not grant certification.

23 I mean -- I don't know what else -- I don't know what I -- I

24 think you should be reading my mind --

25 MR. JONES: I hear what Your Honour says, and it may be a matter

Page 9153

1 of simply declining certification.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Then we decline certification. I think it's wiser,

3 and it pays you more not to insist on the Appeals Chamber and throw this

4 in their lap --

5 MR. JONES: We don't want them to rush in their decision --

6 JUDGE AGIUS: They won't rush in their decision; they'll throw it

7 back to you. I don't think that it's wise on your part to play it that

8 way. I shouldn't be saying all this, but in actual fact I do want to

9 convince you that I have the best interest of your client at heart as

10 well as that of the overall interests of justice.

11 So that having been said, Madam Registrar, I want you to log the

12 time that we have spent starting from 2.15 until now -- yes, I recognise

13 Mr. Wubben is going to take more of your time, Mr. Jones.

14 Yes, Mr. Wubben.

15 MR. WUBBEN: Thank you, Your Honour, though it will be very short

16 because this is the first opportunity I have to address before an

17 imminent start of the Defence case of hearing the witnesses. With a view

18 to the Rule 98 bis ruling by this Trial Chamber, I would like to put on

19 the record that the Prosecution did not appeal this 98 bis ruling of the

20 Trial Chamber, in particular with a view to the part of the decision

21 regarding the counts of plunder. We did not appeal, though we did not

22 agree by itself with the considerations of the Trial Chamber to come to

23 that conclusion of -- regarding the plunder. The reason for not

24 appealing by the OTP is the specific circumstances and background with a

25 view to the issues involved.

Page 9154

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I thank you. And indeed I do want to make

2 myself clear because this has been in the back of my mind all the time

3 since we wrote that special conclusory part in the Rule 98 bis decision,

4 inviting you to consider amending the indictment according -- to reflect

5 the Rule 98 bis decision. We were careful to choose the word -- we

6 didn't order, we invited you. At the same time, fully cognizant of the

7 usual cooperation we find from parties, certainly also from the

8 Prosecution. I did not want you for a moment to think that by asking

9 you, for example, count number 4, leave it there and put deleted in

10 brackets, count number 6, leave it is there and put deleted in brackets,

11 we were asking you to make a declaration that would prejudice your rights

12 to appeal at a later point in time which goes against you. So that is

13 the position. So please do take it for granted that we did not in any

14 way try to prejudice your rights and you should not consider your rights

15 prejudiced. All right.

16 MR. WUBBEN: Right. Much obliged, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Then it is up to the Appeals Chamber, if there is

18 an appeal from you, to consider whether you have prejudiced them or not

19 but it was not our intention to provide you or trick you into a position

20 where you would prejudice your right to appeal.

21 All right. Yes, your first witness, Mr. Jones, or Madam

22 Vidovic --

23 MR. JONES: We, I'm dealing with this witness. May I just say

24 that obviously we gave an opening speech at the start of the entire trial

25 on the 6th of October, 2004, so for the record, again, for the public who

Page 9155

1 are following this, that's the opening speech of the Defence in this case

2 and we don't have a right to make one now, and we are not proposing to

3 make one. So we would simply call our first witness, Edina Becirevic.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Your client doesn't wish to make any statement?

5 MR. JONES: No.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. I do appreciate that, in fact we had

7 dealt with this last day before.

8 MR. JONES: And this should be very brief, this next witness.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: We'll see, anyway.

10 [The witness entered court]

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Good afternoon, Madam Becirevic, and welcome

12 to this Tribunal.

13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Whose microphone?

15 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter cannot hear the witness.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Oh, I see.

17 Madam Becirevic, could I kindly ask you to raise your voice a

18 little bit when you answer because the fact that you are standing up, you

19 are distant from the microphones and you're not being heard by the

20 interpreters. So I welcome you once more to the Trial Chamber. You are

21 about to start giving evidence as the first witness for the Defence in

22 this case against Naser Oric. Our rules require that before you start

23 giving evidence you enter a declaration, a solemn declaration, to the

24 effect that in the course of your testimony you will be speaking the

25 truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

Page 9156

1 Madam Usher will be handing you a -- the text of this solemn

2 declaration. Please read it out aloud and that will be your solemn

3 undertaking with this Tribunal that you will be testifying the truth.

4 Please proceed.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

6 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I thank you. Please take a chair.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Jones will be leading.

10 MR. JONES: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.


12 [Witness answered through interpreter]

13 Examined by Mr. Jones:

14 Q. Apologies, Witness, that you were kept waiting while we dealt

15 with administrative matters.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, and I join in that. We had several

17 administrative matters to deal with and in a way we are lucky to have

18 dealt with them since we start. Madam Registrar, have you logged in the

19 time 2.15 until 10 to 4.00, please. That's the time to be recovered.

20 MR. JONES: I'm obliged, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, and I need to know when we are to break.

22 Write it down on a piece of paper when we need to have a break.

23 MR. JONES: Thank you, Your Honour.

24 Q. Witness, if you can keep your voice up as much as possible, and

25 you can address your answers to the Bench. Even though I'm asking the

Page 9157

1 questions Their Honours, you can answer towards Their Honours.

2 Now, first of all, can you please give the Court your full name.

3 A. Edina Becirevic.

4 Q. And your date of birth, please, for the record.

5 A. The 27th of January, 1967.

6 Q. And your nationality?

7 A. Bosniak.

8 Q. And is it right that your first language is B/C/S or Bosnian?

9 A. Yes.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Becirevic, if at any time -- I take it that

11 since I was speaking in English and you were replying that you are

12 receiving interpretation in your own language?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: If at any time there are problems with

15 interpretation -- I mean, either you're not receiving it or else the

16 volume is too high or too loud, then please do tell us straight away and

17 we'll take the necessary steps to rectify.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course. Thank you.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Jones, sorry for having interrupted you.

20 MR. JONES: Not at all.

21 Q. As well as Bosnian you speak and understand English?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Now, I won't ask you for a full curriculum vitae, but if you

24 could start by telling us a little bit about your academic and

25 professional qualifications. First of all, what are your academic

Page 9158

1 qualifications?

2 A. I am now working on a PhD at the faculty of political sciences in

3 Sarajevo. I have a Masters Degree from the London School of Economics in

4 media communications. I studied at the social psychology department in

5 1967 [as interpreted]. I also have a Masters Degree in the political

6 sciences from the Central European University in Budapest. In Sarajevo I

7 graduated in journalism at the faculty of political sciences in Sarajevo.

8 Q. Right. We might need to enter one correction in the record.

9 When in fact did you study at the social psychology department -- the

10 record says 1967, which must be a bit too early.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: It can't be 1967. I was there in 1964, so -- I

12 don't remember Madam Becirevic.

13 MR. DI FAZIO: If it's of any assistance to the Defence, if Your

14 Honours, please, I've got no objection to Mr. Jones leading throughout

15 all this evidence.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Right.

17 MR. DI FAZIO: If there is any problem, I'll let Mr. Jones know.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Di Fazio.

19 Mr. Jones, that will make your life easier.

20 MR. JONES: I'm obliged, but in this case I can't lead the date

21 because I don't know it.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Do put to the witness when she is supposed to be

23 studying at the LSE.


25 Q. Let me take it from the top. First, is it right that you have a

Page 9159

1 degree in political science and journalism?

2 A. Yes, that's correct, in 1989 in Sarajevo. I apologise about the

3 date.

4 Q. And you also have degrees from the London School of Economics and

5 from the Central European University in Budapest?

6 A. That's correct. From 1993 to 1996 I did a postgraduate degree at

7 the London School of Economics, and in 2000 and 2001 at the Central

8 European University in Budapest.

9 Q. Thank you. And is it right that you worked as a journalist?

10 A. I worked as a journalist until four years ago.

11 Q. And can you just very briefly outline what some of your

12 activities and responsibilities were as a journalist.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Was she a freelance journalist or was she a

14 journalist attached to a particular -- employed by a particular newspaper

15 or TV or radio station?

16 MR. JONES: Yes, perhaps you could --

17 JUDGE AGIUS: And that would be more important for us.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] For about ten years, I worked

19 partly as a freelance journalist and at certain periods of time I worked

20 for foreign television stations. For example, during the war in Sarajevo

21 I worked for WTN, Worldwide Television News. After the war, I worked for

22 Slobodna Bosna as a journalist. I also worked as a freelancer for

23 numerous local Bosnian and Herzegovinian television stations and for

24 some -- or rather, various newspapers throughout the former Yugoslavia.

25 So part of the time I worked as a freelancer and part of the time I had

Page 9160












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13 English transcripts.













Page 9161

1 contracts with various television stations or various magazines.

2 Q. Thank you. And what's your current occupation or your current

3 occupations?

4 A. Currently I am a hired assistant at the Faculty of Criminal

5 Sciences in Sarajevo in national security and I'm also a lecturer at the

6 Maryland university at their department in Sarajevo.

7 Q. And are you also, are you not [Realtime transcript read in error

8 "not"], an investigator in the office of Vasvija Vidovic?

9 A. Yes, of course. I am an investigator in Ms. Vasvija Vidovic's

10 office, working on the Oric case.

11 Q. And that was since 2003 more or less. Is that right?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And what are some of your duties there if you can just explain.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, one moment, because we have got a mistake.

15 Line 15 of page -- we've got a mistake in the transcript. Line 15 your

16 question was put done: And are you also not an investigator in the

17 office of Vasvija Vidovic?

18 MR. JONES: Yes, I think that's rhetorical English.

19 Q. In any event, you are an investigator in Ms. Vasvija Vidovic's

20 office, I take it.

21 A. Yes, I am an investigator in Vasvija Vidovic's office, working on

22 the Oric case.

23 Q. And is it right that as part of your duties you research

24 documents, examine archives, interview potential witnesses, that sort of

25 thing?

Page 9162

1 A. Yes, that's correct.

2 Q. And you also coordinate the work of other investigators?

3 A. Yes, that's correct.

4 Q. Now, as part of your duties do you request documents from

5 sources, receive those documents, and then file them?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And you also on occasion go and inspect archives, make copies of

8 documents, and then file those?

9 A. Yes, that's correct.

10 Q. Would it be right that you, you and the team, records -- or keeps

11 records of all documents received, when they were received, and from what

12 source?

13 A. Yes, that's correct. There is a very strict procedure, and

14 that's followed in Mrs. Vidovic's office.

15 Q. Now, have you for the purposes of testifying today prepared a

16 spreadsheet which sets out the details for all of the Defence exhibits,

17 the source, the date of document, and other details?

18 A. Yes. I prepared such a spreadsheet and in this spreadsheet there

19 is information from the Defence exhibits to be tendered.

20 Q. And in preparing it, did you also, when necessary, seek

21 assistance from other members of the Defence team and other

22 investigators?

23 A. Yes. Other members of the Defence team assisted me in drawing up

24 this spreadsheet.

25 MR. JONES: Your Honour, I believe the witness already has a copy

Page 9163

1 of that spreadsheet, otherwise I was going to produce it to her. But we

2 have copies for everyone else --

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Is it --

4 MR. JONES: Yes.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: We have it already.

6 MR. JONES: Indeed.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: I can't tell you that we have had time to go

8 through it, except -- although we have had a bird's eye view of it, a

9 cursory look at it. We haven't had time to go through it.

10 MR. JONES: We should perhaps provide one copy to the registry,

11 in any event, or however many copies they need.

12 Q. Now, looking at this document, which we seem to -- most of us

13 have in any event, starting with D -- well, it's headed "List of the

14 Defence Exhibits," dated 3 July 2005, and it goes from Defence exhibit

15 D304 to D703. Is that the spreadsheet which you have prepared?

16 A. Yes. Those are the exhibits to be tendered.

17 Q. And now, is this also a summary of information which you have in

18 your possession? In other words there is -- there is more that could be

19 said about some of these exhibits but you've summarised certain details?

20 A. Yes. These are the summaries, and if you wish I can explain the

21 column.

22 Q. Yes. We'll do that in a moment. Firstly I just want to ask you

23 whether you have, in addition to this chart, records of correspondence

24 which you consulted in preparing this spreadsheet?

25 A. Yes, in a separate file. Should any questions be raised I have

Page 9164

1 the correspondence pertaining to all the documents listed in the

2 spreadsheet.

3 MR. JONES: I would ask not necessarily at this stage, but with

4 Your Honour's permission if the witness needs to consult the

5 correspondence file, she should be permitted to do so. We're not

6 proposing to exhibit the whole correspondence file.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: No objection on our part.

8 Any objection on your part, Mr. Di Fazio?

9 MR. DI FAZIO: No objection.


11 Q. We'll examine very briefly this chart. Hopefully it's

12 self-explanatory, but if you could talk us through the first entry and

13 the different columns going from left to right.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I suggest that we put one page on the ELMO.

15 You can take my first page if you need to so the public can follow what's

16 in the first column, second column, and so on and so forth.

17 MR. JONES: Yes.

18 Q. And in the interests of proceeding expeditiously, is it right

19 that firstly, the first column sets out the proposed exhibit number,

20 Defence exhibit number, then the next column states which body or

21 individual issued the document; that if there is a reference number, that

22 that would go into the third column; then one obviously has the date of

23 the document and its description. Taking it just up to there, is that a

24 correct summary of how the chart works?

25 A. Yes, that is a correct summary.

Page 9165

1 Q. And then we have columns dealing with the ERN numbers. Perhaps

2 for that first -- that first entry you can explain why the ERN number is

3 the same for the English and the B/C/S.

4 A. I have here the English ERN and the B/C/S ERN, and they are the

5 same. If we did a translation, we put the same ERN number on the

6 translation to make it identical with the English ERN. Sometimes when we

7 received official translations, we would get one ERN number in English

8 and a different ERN in Bosnian. In this case, the numbers are the same,

9 as you can see.

10 Q. Thank you. And then finally the details are that that was

11 disclosed by the Prosecution and the date is provided there. Is that

12 correct?

13 A. Yes, those are the disclosure details, including the precise date

14 of disclosure.

15 Q. Now, we see from D304 to D505, those exhibits were all disclosed

16 from the Prosecution. When we go from D506 to D513 and also D515 to

17 D520, we see "EDS." Is is correct that that's the electronic disclosure

18 system?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Have you found, for example, D515?

21 A. Yes. Yes, I have found it.

22 Q. Then you're familiar with the electronic disclosure system? You

23 have a give a verbal answer.

24 A. Yes. We use the EDS, the database available to us, and in that

25 way we arrived at a certain number of documents. And in the column

Page 9166

1 entitled "disclosure details" one can see that these documents were ones

2 we found on the EDS.

3 Q. And maybe just skipping back to D514, if you could explain a

4 little bit about that entry because it says "registrar to Ms. Edina

5 Becirevic," so to you. Can you just talk us through that entry and what

6 would have happened in that situation?

7 A. In this case, the exhibit is a set of documents received from the

8 registry of the Hague Tribunal. We had asked access to a certain number

9 of cases which, in our view, were of interest. In August 2003, after

10 having received official approval to travel to The Hague, I searched

11 through some of these files, including the documents from the Krstic case

12 and the documents and exhibits of both the Prosecution and the Defence.

13 This document arrived after I had searched through the Krstic

14 exhibits. I looked at the originals, marked the documents that were of

15 interest to us, and then I would receive copies of them. So the source

16 here is the registry.

17 Q. Right. So to summarise, one source is the OTP, another source is

18 the electronic disclosure system, another source is the registry?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. I want to take you to some that aren't any none of those sources.

21 If we take you to D528 firstly.

22 A. Excuse me, did you say D518 or D528?

23 Q. 528. According to this that's a document from the Official

24 Gazette of the Serbian People, but the source there described as ZK DF

25 BiH and it refers to "Analysis of the Drina Corps." Can you explain that

Page 9167

1 entry to us in a bit more detail.

2 A. In this case the lead counsel, Ms. Vidovic, wrote to the joint

3 command of the Army of the Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina with a

4 specific request that they provide us with an analysis of the Drina

5 Corps. This was not just an analysis but there were also a large number

6 of attachments, maps, and other documents. And after receiving approval,

7 we expected the original documents. The documents were delivered to a

8 Mr. Edin Folan [phoen], Defence investigator, and we have the date when

9 this occurred, and that was the 19th of November, 2003. The document

10 itself is the Official Gazette of the Serbian People, and in column 3 we

11 have the issue 0217/91, and then in the next column is the date of the

12 document, the 24th of October, 1991.

13 Q. So in other words the Federation army, the joint command of the

14 Federation army, has its own archives and attached to an analysis they

15 carried out documents, some of which you copied. Would that be correct?

16 A. After we had inspected the originals, these documents were

17 photocopied for us in the Army of the Federation of Bosnia and

18 Herzegovina. After we had selected the documents we were interested in,

19 a document about the handover was drawn up with a precise list of the

20 documents that we took over from the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

21 This was done in every such case.

22 Q. Okay. Thank you. Now, if we can go to D582, another source

23 which I want to ask you briefly about. It's actually D582 to D599.

24 There we see "The Institute For the Research of Crimes Against Humanity

25 and International Law" in Sarajevo.

Page 9168

1 Can you explain for us a little bit about what that institute is.

2 A. First maybe I should tell you something about the institute

3 itself. The Institute For the Research of Crimes Against Humanity and

4 International Law in Sarajevo is headed by Professor Smail Cekic who is a

5 historian and teaches at the faculty of political sciences in Sarajevo.

6 This is a very credible institute. It was established in 1992 and as an

7 institute it's part of the University of Sarajevo.

8 Q. And is it right then that the institute has its own collection of

9 documents and these are -- exhibits are from their collection?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Now, if we can look D600 and its reference to the FBiH

12 intelligence service. Could you just explain briefly the procedure which

13 you went through in order to obtain copies of documents from the FBiH

14 intelligence service.

15 A. With respect to the intelligence security service of the

16 Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina, the FOSS, the procedure was

17 slightly different because we were not able to inspect the original

18 documents. We were only able to look at their catalogues and tell them

19 what documents we are interested in. But they did not permit us, as the

20 other sources did - I'm referring to the army and so on - they did not

21 permit us to enter their premises and inspect the original documents. We

22 simply told them what documents we were interested in. Ms. Vidovic sent

23 an official letter to them, specifying the documents we were interested

24 in, and these documents were later delivered to us but only photocopies

25 of these documents were delivered to us.

Page 9169

1 Of course in this case also, we always asked that a separate list

2 be drawn up, signed by the person issuing the document and the person who

3 had received the document. In this case, it was sent by courier, but the

4 handover was conducted formally.

5 Q. And you retain the correspondence in relation to those

6 deliveries. Is that correct?

7 A. Yes. Whenever there was a handover of documents, I have a

8 separate file here in which we have a record for every set of documents,

9 and a letter including the request to inspect the documents. And after

10 that, the list of documents we received, the person who handed them over,

11 and the person from our office who received the documents.

12 Q. And finally if I could ask you about the documents from D622

13 onwards of which the source is Mirsad Mustafic to Ms. Edina Becirevic, 12

14 June 2005 in Tuzla. I'll ask you first of all to tell us who Mirsad

15 Mustafic is.

16 A. During the war, Mirsad Mustafic was president -- excuse me, a

17 representative of the Serbian municipality with a seat in Tuzla. After

18 the war he kept his private collection of documents. Ms. Vidovic

19 approached him via an official request that, first of all, he allow us to

20 see the originals and then Mr. Mustafic copied the documents and I put

21 together the records concerning the handing over of the documents on the

22 date specified. Could you just remind me what the number was?

23 Q. Yes. D662 and there -- and following. Are these documents which

24 Mr. Mustafic, as far as you know, retained from having handled during the

25 war in that capacity as a member of the municipal War Presidency?

Page 9170

1 A. Yes. Those are the documents that he received in his capacity as

2 the representative of the Srebrenica municipality with the seat in Tuzla.

3 Those were the documents that were -- pertaining to the period when he

4 was officially occupying that position.

5 Q. And according to the last column, he personally delivered those

6 documents to you on the 12th of June, 2005. Is that correct?

7 A. Yes, that is correct.

8 Q. I won't ask about some of the exhibits where I'm mentioned,

9 because then I might have to give evidence. Yes, thank you.

10 MR. JONES: I would ask -- in fact, Your Honour, I'm not sure

11 whether we should adopt the procedure which was adopted with the

12 Prosecution, that I now tender these 399 exhibits through this witness

13 because I want to ask for an exhibit number for this spreadsheet or

14 whether that should wait until the conclusion of Mr. Di Fazio's

15 cross-examination. I'm in your hands.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: We could do either, but I want to make sure and

17 want confirmation of, Madam Registrar, is in the first page of this

18 spreadsheet where we see the first exhibit showing the number D304, does

19 it reflect the proper sequence of the Defence exhibits that we have so

20 far?

21 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour, that is correct.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: So I take it that the last document that has been

23 filed by the Defence was D303?

24 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So what I suggest, Mr. Jones, is that

Page 9171












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13 English transcripts.













Page 9172

1 you proceed with tendering all these documents, and the spreadsheet

2 itself will be exhibit -- Defence Exhibit D704.

3 MR. JONES: Yes.


5 MR. JONES: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour. And --

6 JUDGE AGIUS: And of course the position is reserved for the

7 Prosecution to contest any of these documents, the admissibility of any

8 of these documents.

9 MR. DI FAZIO: Certainly, certainly. And I -- just in so far as

10 the numbering, just to let you know, we entirely agree with you and I was

11 going to recommend that myself. It suits us and makes sense, with

12 respect.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: So you're happy with that arrangement?

14 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Di Fazio.

16 So you may proceed along those lines. And the spreadsheet

17 itself, I don't think this goes with it, the e-mail from Mr. Roberts?

18 MR. JONES: No, that needn't be exhibited.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. That doesn't --

20 MR. JONES: And, Your Honour, I should say these exhibits have

21 been already delivered, so I don't ask the witness whether she produces

22 these exhibits to be tendered. I think the form of words already --

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Please proceed in the way which you consider to be

24 the most practical and which causes least confusion in the minds of the

25 rest of us.

Page 9173

1 MR. JONES: Yes. Well, indeed, in fact, Your Honour, I was

2 proposing to simply tender this witness for cross-examination and I think

3 enough has been said in terms of tendering these documents.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

5 MR. JONES: Thank you.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: So for the record, the Defence witness -- Defence

7 has tendered into evidence 400 -- that would be 400 documents, starting

8 with Exhibit Number D304, right up and inclusive of the 703, the 703.

9 The description of each of these documents is contained in the

10 spreadsheet against the number given to each of these documents. And

11 this spreadsheet is also being tendered by the Defence and marked as

12 Defence exhibit D704.

13 MR. JONES: Yes. I'm much obliged, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: If anyone feels confused with the way I have

15 presented it, please speak out now before it becomes too late. All

16 right.

17 Mr. Di Fazio seems to be happy as well.

18 All right, I think giving Ms. Edina Becirevic for any

19 cross-examination that you may wish to conduct. You've got 17 minutes

20 before we go into break.

21 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, I think I'll be well and truly finished by

22 then.


24 Cross-examined by Mr. Di Fazio:

25 Q. Madam Becirevic, during the course of your evidence, you said

Page 9174

1 that one of the tasks that you completed, amongst other tasks, was

2 researching documents; however, I understand that the thrust of your

3 evidence today is simply that -- this: You essentially were a collator

4 and collector of documents, these documents in particular. Correct?

5 A. Yes. I went through the archives, collected, and controlled what

6 other team members did.

7 Q. Thank you. I thought as much. Thank you. Would you please look

8 at D431 on your list. Now, that bears a particular ERN number, what is

9 referred to in this institution as an ERN number. Do you see those ERN

10 numbers? They begin with 0207. Do you see that?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Do you know if documents bearing that particular number form part

13 of a collection and has a special name within the ICTY?

14 A. Please allow me a moment.

15 Q. Certainly. Certainly. In fact, I think I can speed things up if

16 I just ask you this. Do you recognise that number as belonging to a

17 class of documents sometimes referred to as the Sokolac collection?

18 A. Yes. That's 431, it is a document from the Sokolac collection.

19 That is the only document contained in the spreadsheet from that

20 collection.

21 Q. Yes. Thank you very much.

22 MR. DI FAZIO: I have no further questions.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. I thank you, Mr. Di Fazio.

24 Is there re-examination, which I don't think there is?

25 MR. JONES: No, Your Honour.

Page 9175

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you have any questions, Judge Brydensholt, Judge

2 Eser?

3 I thought we would have had you for a little bit longer, Madam

4 Becirevic, but I see that you are going to return to your country maybe a

5 little bit earlier. I wish to thank you on behalf of Judge Brydensholt,

6 Judge Eser, and also on my own behalf for having been kind enough to come

7 over and give testimony on -- in this trial. You will now be escorted

8 out of the courtroom by our usher and you will receive all the attention

9 that you require by the other staff of this Tribunal to facilitate your

10 return back home. On behalf of everyone present here, I thank you once

11 more and I wish you a safe journey back home.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. -- I saw Mr. Wubben anxious to tell us

14 something.

15 MR. WUBBEN: Not anxious, Your Honour.

16 [The witness withdrew]

17 MR. WUBBEN: Your Honour, I recall last Friday your request

18 towards Prosecution, that's the issue of the public or confidential label

19 of the 65 ter transcripts. Anyhow, I didn't expect today to have not

20 even one break, because that break would enable me to get my last

21 confirmation with Prosecutor who wasn't present during the course of

22 today. May I take it that I can come back to you first thing tomorrow

23 morning --

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Certainly.

25 MR. WUBBEN: And I can confirm it?

Page 9176

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Certainly. And Mr. Jones had to come back to us on

2 the DVD.

3 MR. JONES: Certainly I was going to come back to you on that and

4 the two other housekeeping matters. As for the DVD, I understood this

5 was a DVD shot on our helicopter ride by the Italians.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: I gather so.

7 MR. JONES: I think in fact what I have a DVD by the Caribinari

8 and in fact the Italians weren't on the helicopter. I reviewed the

9 photographs of Tilman and I didn't see the Italians on there. What I

10 have is a DVD with a reconnaissance trip and there is a voiceover in

11 Italian. I wouldn't want that to be an exhibit because I don't speak

12 Italian. On the other hand, there is a PowerPoint presentation which was

13 compiled by the guide which includes photographs -- well, obviously, a

14 number of photographs, but including Rakovici and Bradjevina which there

15 was an issue since we didn't actually travel there ourselves. Having

16 looked at that photograph, I think it could assist and for that to be

17 exhibited. And maybe the whole PowerPoint presentation should be

18 exhibited.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: We don't have an objection with that.

20 MR. WUBBEN: Either do we, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Either do you.

22 So, Madam Registrar, Mr. Tilman will look into this. We have a

23 PowerPoint presentation on CD prepared by Mr. Philip Berikoff that was

24 made available to us prior to the site visit, which we of course went

25 through individually. That will now enter into the evidence together

Page 9177

1 with the CD that contains the photos that Mr. Tilman himself took.

2 If there are others who have got photos that you would like to

3 have inserted in the records, I'm pleased to do that. I myself took

4 quite a few photos. I'm having them put on a CD. If necessary I'll make

5 you copies of it and then you can -- I'm not interested in having a

6 comparative analysis of who is the better photographer between me and Mr.

7 Blumenstock, but if there is anything you would like to keep in the

8 records for the purposes of this case.

9 It is clear to me that the DVD which was made available to us and

10 which I still haven't seen, to be honest with you, if you agree that this

11 was a video taken by the Italian contingent of the Caribinari prior to

12 the site visit or the helicopter flight on which we were, then obviously

13 I don't think we can -- we ought to have it because I wouldn't be so sure

14 that we went and so exactly the same things. I would recognise a good

15 portion of them, but not necessarily everything.

16 MR. JONES: Yes.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: So I would rather play it safe and agree with you

18 that it doesn't enter into the records.

19 Any objection to that, Mr. Wubben?

20 MR. WUBBEN: No, Your Honour.

21 MR. JONES: There are two other matters and, I'm sorry, I

22 wouldn't say random but varied. The other matter, and I don't know if

23 it's something that Your Honours can deal with now, but it's something

24 concerning simply the number of witnesses and the length of time which is

25 allocated which is -- and one has in a situation where you have two

Page 9178

1 measurements, you have the question of whether it is the shorter or the

2 longer which counts, and if I can illustrate that by saying by the 14th

3 of September we have finished with our 30 witnesses, can we count on it

4 that we might be able to bring more witnesses in that period.

5 Conversely, if get to 30 September and we're only up to Witness 25, do we

6 try to fit in another five more. The reason I ask is because it's very

7 important for us to figure out how much time we should budget for each

8 witness. Obviously there's an incentive to keep them as brief as

9 possible if it means that it might create space for us to bring other

10 witnesses in. So that's something which we could like your guidance on

11 and we would submit that particularly given what we say is the shortness

12 of time in all sorts of respects, that this should be resolved in favour

13 of the Defence and we should have the benefit of whatever comes later, so

14 in other words 30 witnesses or end of September, whichever comes later.

15 That would be -- if that makes sense. That's one matter which I can just

16 leave with Your Honours for the time being.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. We will discuss it amongst ourselves,

18 obviously, and we will come back to you on this. I don't think there is

19 a point in offering a first reaction to it. It requires thought and we

20 will discuss it and possibly come back to you tomorrow.

21 MR. JONES: Thank you, Your Honour. That -- in fact, that was

22 all.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Is that all? Because you said that you had a

24 couple of --

25 MR. JONES: Well, there is another matter and I hesitate in which

Page 9179

1 forum we should raise it you but I will mention it now. Ironically, Your

2 Honour mentioned fees and all of us being paid. In fact for the last two

3 weeks from May onwards we haven't been paid because of the registry

4 system. Nor for any of the work which we did in June have we received

5 fees because of the system run by OLAD. We're challenging that finding,

6 but as far as the summer is concerned, I'm sure as Your Honour can

7 appreciate we're going to be extremely busy during the recess.


9 MR. JONES: But ironically, I think we will be the only party

10 that we won't be receiving any fees for that because the registry's

11 position is that because we're not in court we're not working. It may be

12 at a certain point that guidance from the Trial Chamber would help so we

13 can regulate matters with OLAD.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: This is a matter which I can offer you a first

15 reaction. I think out of the three Judges I have got experience of this

16 coming from the past. I encountered this before, and I fully understand

17 the problem, also the predicament in which the parties, Defence in

18 particular, usually finds themselves, in anticipation and during the

19 summer recess, which is not going to be a summer recess at all for them.

20 I won't speak for ourselves because we, too, probably won't have much of

21 a summer recess, as you can imagine. And me, even more, because I will

22 be dealing with other cases, including the issues -- all the joinder

23 applications that there are now pending before this Tribunal, together

24 with Judge Robinson and Judge Liu. So you can imagine what kind of a

25 summer recess we and I in particular are going to have.

Page 9180

1 In this past when this question arose, I did offer my -- not just

2 my understanding but also my services in a way of interceding with the

3 registrar in promoting your submission or any submission that you might

4 have and supporting it, that you will be required to do plenty of work

5 during the summer recess. It may be tied with presence here in The

6 Hague. It has been tied to that in the past in certain instances.

7 What I suggest is the following, that you take the matter up with

8 the registrar. I am going to cut and paste this relative part of the

9 transcript, which you can make use of in your dealings with the

10 registrar. At the same time, we will through the -- our registrar,

11 deputy registrar, communicate with the registrar and OLAD in particular,

12 to confirm our firm conviction that these three weeks that you are going

13 to have between the 23rd of July and the 14th of August you will be

14 required to dedicate in streamlining your defence particularly as a

15 result and in the wake of our decision to "disrupt" - and you are not to

16 take advantage of the word "disrupt" that I'm using now - disrupt your

17 original plan of bringing forward 73 witnesses already with a layout --

18 laid-out plan. I fully understand that you have got to go through all

19 these 73 witness statements, see what you need to cut off from some of

20 them, see what you are left with, and decide for yourself which will be

21 the 30 best witnesses that you will bring over, being the maximum number.

22 So we will support your -- of course we cannot decide for the registrar.

23 We have no authority to interfere with his discretion; that belongs to

24 him, and him as well. May I also have the reason why you're not being

25 paid -- haven't been paid since May or last week --

Page 9181

1 MR. JONES: It was because the trial was scheduled to end,

2 according to the registry's records, by the middle of May and therefore

3 as far as the registry is concerned the Defence aren't entitled to be

4 paid after that date even if the trial continues, unless they can

5 demonstrate compelling reasons -- exceptional circumstances.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. What I will do is I will ask my Senior

7 Legal Officer, please communicate this to him, to try and get the

8 registrar and the head of OLAD to come and see me at my Chambers at the

9 earliest, tomorrow or the day after, at a time which is convenient for

10 the three of us.

11 In the meantime, can I ask you to send us a brief note, it can be

12 done by e-mail, from Mr. Roberts copied, however, to the Prosecution,

13 specifying exactly when this was communicated to you, when you were paid

14 last, and any indication of what the intentions of the registrar are and

15 anticipated payments, when they are anticipated to resume. Because the

16 last thing I want is to have a situation where -- with the approach of

17 the summer recess you have first this suggestion that you will not be

18 paid for three weeks because that's a recess, you're not supposed to be

19 working, and secondly you would also not have been paid in the meantime

20 since I don't know when.

21 So we will look into that matter with the caveat that we will

22 only discuss with the registrar and not in any way interfere with his

23 discretion. However, we will express our preoccupation and our desire

24 that responsible counsel and Defence teams be kept adequately remunerated

25 as we go along and not be paid in hiccups --

Page 9182

1 MR. JONES: Yes. Thank you very much indeed. We appreciate that

2 support and those comments. And we raise it also because of course it's

3 the right of the accused to have legal representation provided to him.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Of course. If you encounter further problems,

5 please, as long as we are seized of this case, do not hesitate to

6 communicate them to us. And you are also free to raise this matter

7 anywhere else or through the Association of Defence Counsel.

8 MR. JONES: I'm very much obliged, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Nothing else.

10 So I take it you don't have the next witness available to start

11 now.

12 MR. JONES: I'm afraid not.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: So we will resume tomorrow morning at 9.00 here in

14 Courtroom III, and we will start with witness number 2. Right. Thank

15 you, and good afternoon -- good evening.

16 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.47 p.m.,

17 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 5th day of

18 July, 2005, at 9.00 a.m.