1 Monday, 4 July 2005
2 [Open session]
3 --- Upon commencing at 3.17 p.m.
4 [The accused entered court]
5 JUDGE AGIUS: So, Madam Registrar, good afternoon to you. Could
6 you call the case, please.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is Case
8 Number IT-03-68-T, the Prosecutor versus Naser Oric.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I thank you.
10 Mr. Oric, can you follow the proceedings in your own language?
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours,
12 ladies and gentlemen. I can follow the proceedings in my mother tongue.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, and good afternoon to you, too.
14 Appearances for the Prosecution.
15 MR. WUBBEN: Good afternoon, Your Honours, good afternoon to my
16 learned friends from the Defence. My name is Jan Wubben, lead counsel
17 for the Prosecution, I am here together with Gramsci Di Fazio,
18 co-counsel, and our case manager, Ms. Donnica Henry-Frijlink.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you and good afternoon to you and your
21 And appearances for Naser Oric.
22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours, my
23 name is Vasvija Vidovic, and together with John Jones I appear on behalf
24 of Mr. Naser Oric. With us are our CaseMap manager, Mr. Geoff Roberts,
25 and our legal assistant, Ms. Adisa Mehic.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Ms. Vidovic, and good afternoon to you
2 and your team.
3 So, Madam Registrar, you would have noticed that we started an
4 hour and a couple of minutes later than scheduled, and that's because of
5 -- we were concluding all that needed to be done before the sitting. I
6 would like you to start keeping a note starting from today - you and
7 whoever might replace you - of any time lost, and we will then tell you
8 -- you will bring that to our attention and we will tell you to credit it
9 to the Defence time.
10 The time started from 2.15, and it continues until we conclude
11 the matters that we are going to finish. All right.
12 So the first thing that I wanted to announce is that a few
13 minutes ago we filed our written decision on the Defence filings
14 following the scheduling order that we discussed, which I don't know
15 whether you have been given a copy as yet.
16 MR. WUBBEN: No, Your Honour.
17 MR. JONES: No.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I'll make sure that you will be given a
19 copy. More or less -- I mean, it's what we anticipated of course last
20 Friday, except for one thing that -- I'll be coming to this, but having
21 looked at your motion for certification, you're asking for certification
22 of our oral decision. What we did last Friday was not an oral decision;
23 it was the anticipation of what - we made it clear - was going to be a
24 written decision. So it's not the end of the world. It's something
25 which is not of significance.
1 Before we clear up the matter of certification, since this is
2 being filed well within the seven-day period, I want to know whether you
3 are going to stay silent on this or whether you want time to file a reply
4 because if you do not require any time to file a reply or you're prepared
5 to make submissions now or prefer to stay silent, then we can proceed
6 with our decision, which will be oral now; we're giving you an indication
7 of what we're going to decide, to be followed by a written decision later
8 on in the day at the end of the day, before the closing time of registry.
9 Yes, Mr. Wubben, don't make our lives difficult.
10 MR. WUBBEN: Your Honour, I would like to submit that we will not
11 oppose it and we will not give a written reply.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you and I really appreciate that, Mr.
13 Wubben. I told the two colleagues that I had no doubt that this is what
14 I would have -- I would hear from your mouth. So later on we will be
15 handing down a written decision, granting certification. I can also tell
16 you as from now that in the concluding part of the decision granting
17 certification we are also drawing the attention of the Appeals Chamber to
18 the urgent need to have this matter decided as early as possible. So
19 that is for your information. All right.
20 MR. JONES: Simply to explain, Your Honour, the reason why we
21 filed a request for certification on the basis of the oral decision, as
22 we characterised it, was two-fold: One, to preserve our decision because
23 we didn't want to start the Defence case without already setting in train
24 an appeal; and secondly, because as you will see, we are also applying
25 for a stay, again more formally than we did on Friday, and it didn't seem
1 to make sense to file a stay of proceedings pending appeal unless we had
2 initiated the appeal.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: I fully understand, Mr. Jones. What I want you to
4 do, unless you find objection to doing it, is please make a short
5 statement now that following my declaration that there was no such oral
6 decision but a written decision, that your motion applies to the written
7 decision -- same arguments apply to the written decision, and that will
8 be your motion for all intents and purposes.
9 MR. JONES: Yes. I can orally make that declaration or motion
10 and adopt the words which Your Honour has just outlined.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.
12 Which brings us to the next problem, and that rises in the wake
13 of the second motion that was filed by the Defence, namely that of the
14 staying of proceedings pending the outcome of the appeal on the decision
15 we have just -- the written decision that we have just filed a few
16 minutes ago. Again, I don't think it's the case of requiring from the
17 Defence any elaboration on the arguments that are adduced in that motion.
18 And what I would like to know is whether the Prosecution would like to
19 take a position on that motion and whether they are in a position to take
20 that position today rather than ask for -- not ask for time, it's a right
21 that you have -- than avail yourself of the time that you have, according
22 to our Rules, to reply in writing to that motion.
23 I can tell you what our preference is. Our preference is,
24 obviously, that you do not, if possible, avail yourself of that
25 possibility and that you provide us with your remarks or your response
1 orally now if you are going to respond in any case.
2 MR. WUBBEN: Yes, Your Honour, I will do so. And given the very
3 extraordinary circumstances of the case and also by supporting the
4 expeditious way to handle issues like this, any delay of the procedure,
5 as of course the concern of the OTP. So in that respect, I would like to
6 limit that part of the issue of the request to that specific comment by
7 us because a delay will mean that precious time is wasted -- and I don't
8 mean wasted in a negative way --
9 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no, no --
10 MR. WUBBEN: Used -- not used --
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Lost.
12 MR. WUBBEN: Lost. Thank you, Your Honour, much obliged. It
13 will be lost and that's why it has the concern of the OTP. The
14 alternative proposal in the motion is therefore -- sounds more reasonable
15 whenever it comes to a confirmation or a denial by the Appeals Chamber
16 later on, and that will not take into account. So rather, in that --
17 given those circumstances and the argumentation, I would prefer a
18 supporting of the alternative --
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Which alternative --
20 MR. WUBBEN: At the end, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Number 18. But your -- let's take it. The Defence
22 in the Defence in the first place requests the Trial Chamber to
23 re-consider its position and to order a stay of proceedings pending the
24 hearing of the appeal, which would also give the Defence adequate time to
25 re-consider its position in the light of the Trial Chamber's decision on
1 the length of time. This is part of the accused's fundamental right.
2 Then in the alternative the Defence requests the Trial Chamber
3 not to count the two weeks and four witnesses called in July 2005 as part
4 of the nine weeks and 30 witnesses allocated for the Defence to present
5 its case, and therefore to reschedule the close of the Defence case
7 Are you telling me that out of these two requests of the -- of
8 the Defence you would rather have us decide in favour of the second
9 rather than of the first?
10 MR. WUBBEN: Yes, Your Honour, and not in such a way that I would
11 plead to allow the second alternative, but I am rather opposing a first
12 and in favour of the second than the other way around. So that's my --
13 that's my oral position at this time, and I would like to confirm that in
14 one of the two coming days, in short.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: So basically what you are saying is that instead of
16 giving the Defence nine weeks, we would be giving them 11 weeks. And
17 instead of 30 witnesses, we would be giving them 33 witnesses.
18 MR. WUBBEN: No. I'm telling you that I would -- I would rather
19 -- I would rather be -- if any preference given by choice by those two,
20 it will be the second; but with a view of the second I would like to
21 confirm that in written reply within one of the two coming --
22 JUDGE AGIUS: But in the meantime we have to decide today whether
23 we stay the proceedings today and whether we continue. I have got one
24 witness here already in the corridor; I saw her being escorted to the
25 room. I suppose that Mr. Jones already has the next witness present here
1 in The Hague. So if we -- I can't stop you for asking for time, but I do
2 plead with you, if possible, to give us an answer here and now because we
3 have got at least two witnesses that I know of present here in The Hague.
4 I don't know if the third one is present here as well.
5 MR. JONES: He isn't.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: But at least we have got two here.
7 MR. WUBBEN: In that case, Your Honour, I oppose any delay, any
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Jones.
10 MR. JONES: Yes. May I just briefly, Your Honour. I won't, of
11 course, outline the reasons for our application for stay because Your
12 Honour has them.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: No, they are very clear.
14 MR. JONES: Simply for the public that are following, we say that
15 in the dramatic developments of receiving directions last week we need
16 firstly time to get our house in order and we need in particular to avoid
17 calling witnesses that may not be necessary and thereby wasting four
18 witnesses and two weeks out of nine weeks and 30 witnesses. And we say
19 there's no compelling reason why the next two weeks -- why we need to sit
20 those two weeks.
21 If I might respond to Your Honour's observation, a practical one,
22 that there are two witnesses in The Hague, that of course there's a point
23 of principle here for us, that at the same time those two witnesses are
24 here and one conceivable approach might be that we sit this week with
25 those witnesses and a stay -- it would be appropriate as of the start of
1 next week. That's one possible suggestion.
2 And then just briefly on the difference -- or the alternative in
3 paragraph 18 of not counting the extra -- these two weeks. In effect, I
4 think it comes in some ways to the same thing, because the Appeals
5 Chamber will presumably give a ruling within four to six weeks in any
6 event by the time we --
7 JUDGE AGIUS: I can't guarantee anything on behalf of the Appeals
8 Chamber. I can assure you of one thing, and you know as much about this
9 as we do, we know probably a little bit than you do, the Appeals Chamber
10 in its various compositions is very heavily burdened at the moment, and
11 that is precisely why I have precisely -- because usually we wouldn't
12 conclude in a decision an exhortation to the Appeals Chamber to give
13 priority to this appeal rather than others. But I think that I can
14 safely - and we've discussed this at length - we can safely take the
15 liberty of addressing the Appeals Chamber in that direction, but then of
16 course it's up to the Appeals Chamber to regulate its own scheduling,
17 with obviously we cannot interfere.
18 MR. JONES: So that -- I won't make any guesses in that respect
20 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no.
21 MR. JONES: But the alternative proposal that the weeks and
22 witnesses not be counted against us is really a device whereby that any
23 prejudice against us is removed because that way we have these two weeks
24 free in essence and it doesn't count against us. So that's the reason
25 for that request for alternative relief.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: What we would like to make clear is the following,
2 that the fact that you have two witnesses here already here in The Hague
3 and prepared to start giving evidence is an argument in your favour and
4 not being used as an argument against. In fact, it would have been used
5 as an argument against you if you had come forward and said, We insist on
6 this stay of proceedings and we are not calling these first two witnesses
7 to be present here in The Hague, et cetera. So it's the other way
9 MR. JONES: We're forced to call them --
10 JUDGE AGIUS: It's the kind of behaviour that we would expect
11 from a reasonable and respectful Defence team in any case. All right.
12 MR. JONES: I'm obliged.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: So that's it. One moment.
14 [Trial Chamber confers]
15 JUDGE AGIUS: So let's decide this orally and if you so require
16 we will follow up with a written decision. We hope that you will not
17 require it after that you've heard what we have to say. We are deciding
18 orally the motion filed earlier on today by the Defence for Naser Oric
19 called "Urgent Defence Motion For a Stay of Proceedings Pending Appeal."
20 The Trial Chamber is deciding this motion orally now, after
21 having confirmed to the parties its intention to grant by means of a
22 written decision certification granting leave for appeal of the decision,
23 written decision, which I referred to earlier on on the two Defence
24 filings following the schedule order we issued some time back.
25 What we are going to decide now is whether the Trial Chamber
1 should stay the proceedings or not. There are two alternatives that are
2 being put forward by the Defence in the motion. The first one is that
3 the Trial Chamber reconsiders it position and order a stay of
4 proceedings, pending the hearing of the appeal, which would also give the
5 Defence adequate time to reconsider its position in the light of the
6 Trial Chamber's decision on the length of time.
7 The alternative remedy that is being sought by the Defence is
8 that the Trial Chamber not count the two weeks and four witnesses that
9 would be called in July 2005 as part of the nine weeks and 30 witnesses
10 allocated for the Defence to present its case, and therefore to
11 reschedule the close of the Defence case accordingly.
12 The Trial Chamber, having heard -- having gone through the
13 reasons brought forward in this motion and also we've heard what the
14 Prosecution had to say, does not agree either that it should reconsider
15 its position and order a stay of proceedings pending the hearing of the
16 appeal, and as well as not to count the two weeks and four witnesses
17 called in this month as part of the nine weeks and 30 witnesses allocated
18 for the Defence to present its case.
19 The reasons are as follows: Primarily it's because we consider
20 that the reasons adduced in this motion in support of the two requests,
21 although of course they carry some weight, however they do not -- they
22 are not of enough significance in this eyes of the Trial Chamber such as
23 to outweigh the interests of justice that the -- that the Trial Chamber
24 considers as necessary in the present circumstances in order to be able
25 to proceed with the case and commence the Defence case. In other words,
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 these are not vexatious or superfluous reasons that have been given, but
2 they are not enough to outweigh the interests of justice to continue with
3 the case. That is the primary consideration that we have.
4 Also underlying this decision is the fact that although we hope
5 the Appeals Chamber will hand down its decision, preferably -- I mean, I
6 say it without hesitation, but as I say I cannot -- I have no control on
7 these issues, on these matters, preferably before the end of the summer
8 recess so that you will know in the meantime what the situation is and
9 the Prosecution will know, and we in particular would know. Still, there
10 is no guarantee that we will get this before August 15th. So a request
11 to order a stay of proceedings pending the hearing and determination of
12 the appeal not knowing when the appeal is going to finish might entail a
13 decision which would mean the staying of proceedings also beyond the
14 summer recess, and we don't think that that is what we ought to do.
15 The other alternative, we have the following to say: We have
16 requested the Defence to bring forward four witnesses or enough witnesses
17 to fill in the two weeks that we have starting from today until the end
18 -- until the summer recess, the two weeks that we agreed upon. We do
19 appreciate that you could have difficulty in identifying a fourth or a
20 fifth witness to bring over, considering the relative short time that
21 you've had. We do not agree that you should encounter also such problems
22 in relation to the first three witnesses, that is Madam Edina, who is
23 waiting outside, and the other two witnesses, Redzic and Dachy. As
24 regards the fourth witness, we trust judge in your good judgement and
25 sense of cooperation, and we believe that if you are in a position to
1 bring that person - I won't mention the name because I don't know if he
2 will be protected or not - the fourth person that we have got on the list
3 today, that if you are in a position to bring him over, you bring him
5 What we can promise you is the following, Mr. Jones and Madam
6 Vidovic, if there is any remaining time after we finish with that
7 evidence at the 15th of July that we agreed upon, then that will be a
8 credit. We will stop, we will not force you to bring any witnesses,
9 those remaining, one, two, three, I don't know, we will not force you,
10 but please do make your utmost to bring the fourth witness if you can. I
11 mean, I know that you are responsible enough not to play games, and I
12 take your word that you won't. But it is important for us not to lose
13 time as much as we can. All right. So that is the position.
14 If you end up on the second week with your back to the wall and
15 we are satisfied that you did your best and you found -- you encountered
16 difficulties, you are not going to find us unreasonable. I don't think
17 we have ever been unreasonable with you, even though you think we are
18 unreasonable with you now. Time will prove to you that we weren't. But
19 this is the position.
20 So that is our decision. If you require it in writing, we will
21 hand it down in writing and then we'll see what the situation will be.
22 MR. JONES: Yes. Two matters really. We are doing our utmost to
23 have that witness there, the fourth witness, and I trust that we will be
24 able to bring him here. We certainly don't require that decision in
25 writing. On the other hand, I wonder if Your Honours could certify that
1 matter also for appeal so that that can be included globally in the
2 appeal which we will be bringing. In some ways it might be academic,
3 because by the time the Appeals Chamber rules on the matter, it might be
4 too late for the stay to be granted. But it is a matter which, it seems,
5 falls within the context of our complaint and therefore should be
6 reviewed by the Appeals Chamber.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: I think is this: I want to consider one thing, Mr.
8 Jones, that this is an area which is not virgin ground, whether or not
9 there should or should not be a stay of proceedings pending the
10 determination of appeals. And I suppose I don't need to go into the case
11 for that exists. I very much suspect that if we were to give you this
12 opportunity, that you would include it in your appeal, it may influence
13 the Appeals Chamber in the preliminary filtering process that takes place
14 of whether to go ahead with the appeal or not.
15 My suggestion to you is as follows: It will be difficult for us
16 to certify it, simply because the case law of this Tribunal is constantly
17 against staying proceedings pending the outcome of appeals decisions,
18 except of course when it is absolutely unavoidable, which is not the case
19 I think. And if we do certify it, I mean you would be trying to tie --
20 or rather, we would be trying to tie the hands of the Appeals Chamber to
21 decide an issue with extreme urgency, when we could have decided it
22 definitively for ourselves and not grant certification.
23 I mean -- I don't know what else -- I don't know what I -- I
24 think you should be reading my mind --
25 MR. JONES: I hear what Your Honour says, and it may be a matter
1 of simply declining certification.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Then we decline certification. I think it's wiser,
3 and it pays you more not to insist on the Appeals Chamber and throw this
4 in their lap --
5 MR. JONES: We don't want them to rush in their decision --
6 JUDGE AGIUS: They won't rush in their decision; they'll throw it
7 back to you. I don't think that it's wise on your part to play it that
8 way. I shouldn't be saying all this, but in actual fact I do want to
9 convince you that I have the best interest of your client at heart as
10 well as that of the overall interests of justice.
11 So that having been said, Madam Registrar, I want you to log the
12 time that we have spent starting from 2.15 until now -- yes, I recognise
13 Mr. Wubben is going to take more of your time, Mr. Jones.
14 Yes, Mr. Wubben.
15 MR. WUBBEN: Thank you, Your Honour, though it will be very short
16 because this is the first opportunity I have to address before an
17 imminent start of the Defence case of hearing the witnesses. With a view
18 to the Rule 98 bis ruling by this Trial Chamber, I would like to put on
19 the record that the Prosecution did not appeal this 98 bis ruling of the
20 Trial Chamber, in particular with a view to the part of the decision
21 regarding the counts of plunder. We did not appeal, though we did not
22 agree by itself with the considerations of the Trial Chamber to come to
23 that conclusion of -- regarding the plunder. The reason for not
24 appealing by the OTP is the specific circumstances and background with a
25 view to the issues involved.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I thank you. And indeed I do want to make
2 myself clear because this has been in the back of my mind all the time
3 since we wrote that special conclusory part in the Rule 98 bis decision,
4 inviting you to consider amending the indictment according -- to reflect
5 the Rule 98 bis decision. We were careful to choose the word -- we
6 didn't order, we invited you. At the same time, fully cognizant of the
7 usual cooperation we find from parties, certainly also from the
8 Prosecution. I did not want you for a moment to think that by asking
9 you, for example, count number 4, leave it there and put deleted in
10 brackets, count number 6, leave it is there and put deleted in brackets,
11 we were asking you to make a declaration that would prejudice your rights
12 to appeal at a later point in time which goes against you. So that is
13 the position. So please do take it for granted that we did not in any
14 way try to prejudice your rights and you should not consider your rights
15 prejudiced. All right.
16 MR. WUBBEN: Right. Much obliged, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Then it is up to the Appeals Chamber, if there is
18 an appeal from you, to consider whether you have prejudiced them or not
19 but it was not our intention to provide you or trick you into a position
20 where you would prejudice your right to appeal.
21 All right. Yes, your first witness, Mr. Jones, or Madam
22 Vidovic --
23 MR. JONES: We, I'm dealing with this witness. May I just say
24 that obviously we gave an opening speech at the start of the entire trial
25 on the 6th of October, 2004, so for the record, again, for the public who
1 are following this, that's the opening speech of the Defence in this case
2 and we don't have a right to make one now, and we are not proposing to
3 make one. So we would simply call our first witness, Edina Becirevic.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Your client doesn't wish to make any statement?
5 MR. JONES: No.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. I do appreciate that, in fact we had
7 dealt with this last day before.
8 MR. JONES: And this should be very brief, this next witness.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: We'll see, anyway.
10 [The witness entered court]
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Good afternoon, Madam Becirevic, and welcome
12 to this Tribunal.
13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Whose microphone?
15 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter cannot hear the witness.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Oh, I see.
17 Madam Becirevic, could I kindly ask you to raise your voice a
18 little bit when you answer because the fact that you are standing up, you
19 are distant from the microphones and you're not being heard by the
20 interpreters. So I welcome you once more to the Trial Chamber. You are
21 about to start giving evidence as the first witness for the Defence in
22 this case against Naser Oric. Our rules require that before you start
23 giving evidence you enter a declaration, a solemn declaration, to the
24 effect that in the course of your testimony you will be speaking the
25 truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
1 Madam Usher will be handing you a -- the text of this solemn
2 declaration. Please read it out aloud and that will be your solemn
3 undertaking with this Tribunal that you will be testifying the truth.
4 Please proceed.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
6 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I thank you. Please take a chair.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Jones will be leading.
10 MR. JONES: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.
11 WITNESS: EDINA BECIREVIC
12 [Witness answered through interpreter]
13 Examined by Mr. Jones:
14 Q. Apologies, Witness, that you were kept waiting while we dealt
15 with administrative matters.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, and I join in that. We had several
17 administrative matters to deal with and in a way we are lucky to have
18 dealt with them since we start. Madam Registrar, have you logged in the
19 time 2.15 until 10 to 4.00, please. That's the time to be recovered.
20 MR. JONES: I'm obliged, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, and I need to know when we are to break.
22 Write it down on a piece of paper when we need to have a break.
23 MR. JONES: Thank you, Your Honour.
24 Q. Witness, if you can keep your voice up as much as possible, and
25 you can address your answers to the Bench. Even though I'm asking the
1 questions Their Honours, you can answer towards Their Honours.
2 Now, first of all, can you please give the Court your full name.
3 A. Edina Becirevic.
4 Q. And your date of birth, please, for the record.
5 A. The 27th of January, 1967.
6 Q. And your nationality?
7 A. Bosniak.
8 Q. And is it right that your first language is B/C/S or Bosnian?
9 A. Yes.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Becirevic, if at any time -- I take it that
11 since I was speaking in English and you were replying that you are
12 receiving interpretation in your own language?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: If at any time there are problems with
15 interpretation -- I mean, either you're not receiving it or else the
16 volume is too high or too loud, then please do tell us straight away and
17 we'll take the necessary steps to rectify.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course. Thank you.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Jones, sorry for having interrupted you.
20 MR. JONES: Not at all.
21 Q. As well as Bosnian you speak and understand English?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Now, I won't ask you for a full curriculum vitae, but if you
24 could start by telling us a little bit about your academic and
25 professional qualifications. First of all, what are your academic
2 A. I am now working on a PhD at the faculty of political sciences in
3 Sarajevo. I have a Masters Degree from the London School of Economics in
4 media communications. I studied at the social psychology department in
5 1967 [as interpreted]. I also have a Masters Degree in the political
6 sciences from the Central European University in Budapest. In Sarajevo I
7 graduated in journalism at the faculty of political sciences in Sarajevo.
8 Q. Right. We might need to enter one correction in the record.
9 When in fact did you study at the social psychology department -- the
10 record says 1967, which must be a bit too early.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: It can't be 1967. I was there in 1964, so -- I
12 don't remember Madam Becirevic.
13 MR. DI FAZIO: If it's of any assistance to the Defence, if Your
14 Honours, please, I've got no objection to Mr. Jones leading throughout
15 all this evidence.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Right.
17 MR. DI FAZIO: If there is any problem, I'll let Mr. Jones know.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Di Fazio.
19 Mr. Jones, that will make your life easier.
20 MR. JONES: I'm obliged, but in this case I can't lead the date
21 because I don't know it.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Do put to the witness when she is supposed to be
23 studying at the LSE.
24 MR. JONES:
25 Q. Let me take it from the top. First, is it right that you have a
1 degree in political science and journalism?
2 A. Yes, that's correct, in 1989 in Sarajevo. I apologise about the
4 Q. And you also have degrees from the London School of Economics and
5 from the Central European University in Budapest?
6 A. That's correct. From 1993 to 1996 I did a postgraduate degree at
7 the London School of Economics, and in 2000 and 2001 at the Central
8 European University in Budapest.
9 Q. Thank you. And is it right that you worked as a journalist?
10 A. I worked as a journalist until four years ago.
11 Q. And can you just very briefly outline what some of your
12 activities and responsibilities were as a journalist.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Was she a freelance journalist or was she a
14 journalist attached to a particular -- employed by a particular newspaper
15 or TV or radio station?
16 MR. JONES: Yes, perhaps you could --
17 JUDGE AGIUS: And that would be more important for us.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] For about ten years, I worked
19 partly as a freelance journalist and at certain periods of time I worked
20 for foreign television stations. For example, during the war in Sarajevo
21 I worked for WTN, Worldwide Television News. After the war, I worked for
22 Slobodna Bosna as a journalist. I also worked as a freelancer for
23 numerous local Bosnian and Herzegovinian television stations and for
24 some -- or rather, various newspapers throughout the former Yugoslavia.
25 So part of the time I worked as a freelancer and part of the time I had
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 contracts with various television stations or various magazines.
2 Q. Thank you. And what's your current occupation or your current
4 A. Currently I am a hired assistant at the Faculty of Criminal
5 Sciences in Sarajevo in national security and I'm also a lecturer at the
6 Maryland university at their department in Sarajevo.
7 Q. And are you also, are you not [Realtime transcript read in error
8 "not"], an investigator in the office of Vasvija Vidovic?
9 A. Yes, of course. I am an investigator in Ms. Vasvija Vidovic's
10 office, working on the Oric case.
11 Q. And that was since 2003 more or less. Is that right?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And what are some of your duties there if you can just explain.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, one moment, because we have got a mistake.
15 Line 15 of page -- we've got a mistake in the transcript. Line 15 your
16 question was put done: And are you also not an investigator in the
17 office of Vasvija Vidovic?
18 MR. JONES: Yes, I think that's rhetorical English.
19 Q. In any event, you are an investigator in Ms. Vasvija Vidovic's
20 office, I take it.
21 A. Yes, I am an investigator in Vasvija Vidovic's office, working on
22 the Oric case.
23 Q. And is it right that as part of your duties you research
24 documents, examine archives, interview potential witnesses, that sort of
1 A. Yes, that's correct.
2 Q. And you also coordinate the work of other investigators?
3 A. Yes, that's correct.
4 Q. Now, as part of your duties do you request documents from
5 sources, receive those documents, and then file them?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And you also on occasion go and inspect archives, make copies of
8 documents, and then file those?
9 A. Yes, that's correct.
10 Q. Would it be right that you, you and the team, records -- or keeps
11 records of all documents received, when they were received, and from what
13 A. Yes, that's correct. There is a very strict procedure, and
14 that's followed in Mrs. Vidovic's office.
15 Q. Now, have you for the purposes of testifying today prepared a
16 spreadsheet which sets out the details for all of the Defence exhibits,
17 the source, the date of document, and other details?
18 A. Yes. I prepared such a spreadsheet and in this spreadsheet there
19 is information from the Defence exhibits to be tendered.
20 Q. And in preparing it, did you also, when necessary, seek
21 assistance from other members of the Defence team and other
23 A. Yes. Other members of the Defence team assisted me in drawing up
24 this spreadsheet.
25 MR. JONES: Your Honour, I believe the witness already has a copy
1 of that spreadsheet, otherwise I was going to produce it to her. But we
2 have copies for everyone else --
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Is it --
4 MR. JONES: Yes.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: We have it already.
6 MR. JONES: Indeed.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: I can't tell you that we have had time to go
8 through it, except -- although we have had a bird's eye view of it, a
9 cursory look at it. We haven't had time to go through it.
10 MR. JONES: We should perhaps provide one copy to the registry,
11 in any event, or however many copies they need.
12 Q. Now, looking at this document, which we seem to -- most of us
13 have in any event, starting with D -- well, it's headed "List of the
14 Defence Exhibits," dated 3 July 2005, and it goes from Defence exhibit
15 D304 to D703. Is that the spreadsheet which you have prepared?
16 A. Yes. Those are the exhibits to be tendered.
17 Q. And now, is this also a summary of information which you have in
18 your possession? In other words there is -- there is more that could be
19 said about some of these exhibits but you've summarised certain details?
20 A. Yes. These are the summaries, and if you wish I can explain the
22 Q. Yes. We'll do that in a moment. Firstly I just want to ask you
23 whether you have, in addition to this chart, records of correspondence
24 which you consulted in preparing this spreadsheet?
25 A. Yes, in a separate file. Should any questions be raised I have
1 the correspondence pertaining to all the documents listed in the
3 MR. JONES: I would ask not necessarily at this stage, but with
4 Your Honour's permission if the witness needs to consult the
5 correspondence file, she should be permitted to do so. We're not
6 proposing to exhibit the whole correspondence file.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: No objection on our part.
8 Any objection on your part, Mr. Di Fazio?
9 MR. DI FAZIO: No objection.
10 MR. JONES:
11 Q. We'll examine very briefly this chart. Hopefully it's
12 self-explanatory, but if you could talk us through the first entry and
13 the different columns going from left to right.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I suggest that we put one page on the ELMO.
15 You can take my first page if you need to so the public can follow what's
16 in the first column, second column, and so on and so forth.
17 MR. JONES: Yes.
18 Q. And in the interests of proceeding expeditiously, is it right
19 that firstly, the first column sets out the proposed exhibit number,
20 Defence exhibit number, then the next column states which body or
21 individual issued the document; that if there is a reference number, that
22 that would go into the third column; then one obviously has the date of
23 the document and its description. Taking it just up to there, is that a
24 correct summary of how the chart works?
25 A. Yes, that is a correct summary.
1 Q. And then we have columns dealing with the ERN numbers. Perhaps
2 for that first -- that first entry you can explain why the ERN number is
3 the same for the English and the B/C/S.
4 A. I have here the English ERN and the B/C/S ERN, and they are the
5 same. If we did a translation, we put the same ERN number on the
6 translation to make it identical with the English ERN. Sometimes when we
7 received official translations, we would get one ERN number in English
8 and a different ERN in Bosnian. In this case, the numbers are the same,
9 as you can see.
10 Q. Thank you. And then finally the details are that that was
11 disclosed by the Prosecution and the date is provided there. Is that
13 A. Yes, those are the disclosure details, including the precise date
14 of disclosure.
15 Q. Now, we see from D304 to D505, those exhibits were all disclosed
16 from the Prosecution. When we go from D506 to D513 and also D515 to
17 D520, we see "EDS." Is is correct that that's the electronic disclosure
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Have you found, for example, D515?
21 A. Yes. Yes, I have found it.
22 Q. Then you're familiar with the electronic disclosure system? You
23 have a give a verbal answer.
24 A. Yes. We use the EDS, the database available to us, and in that
25 way we arrived at a certain number of documents. And in the column
1 entitled "disclosure details" one can see that these documents were ones
2 we found on the EDS.
3 Q. And maybe just skipping back to D514, if you could explain a
4 little bit about that entry because it says "registrar to Ms. Edina
5 Becirevic," so to you. Can you just talk us through that entry and what
6 would have happened in that situation?
7 A. In this case, the exhibit is a set of documents received from the
8 registry of the Hague Tribunal. We had asked access to a certain number
9 of cases which, in our view, were of interest. In August 2003, after
10 having received official approval to travel to The Hague, I searched
11 through some of these files, including the documents from the Krstic case
12 and the documents and exhibits of both the Prosecution and the Defence.
13 This document arrived after I had searched through the Krstic
14 exhibits. I looked at the originals, marked the documents that were of
15 interest to us, and then I would receive copies of them. So the source
16 here is the registry.
17 Q. Right. So to summarise, one source is the OTP, another source is
18 the electronic disclosure system, another source is the registry?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. I want to take you to some that aren't any none of those sources.
21 If we take you to D528 firstly.
22 A. Excuse me, did you say D518 or D528?
23 Q. 528. According to this that's a document from the Official
24 Gazette of the Serbian People, but the source there described as ZK DF
25 BiH and it refers to "Analysis of the Drina Corps." Can you explain that
1 entry to us in a bit more detail.
2 A. In this case the lead counsel, Ms. Vidovic, wrote to the joint
3 command of the Army of the Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina with a
4 specific request that they provide us with an analysis of the Drina
5 Corps. This was not just an analysis but there were also a large number
6 of attachments, maps, and other documents. And after receiving approval,
7 we expected the original documents. The documents were delivered to a
8 Mr. Edin Folan [phoen], Defence investigator, and we have the date when
9 this occurred, and that was the 19th of November, 2003. The document
10 itself is the Official Gazette of the Serbian People, and in column 3 we
11 have the issue 0217/91, and then in the next column is the date of the
12 document, the 24th of October, 1991.
13 Q. So in other words the Federation army, the joint command of the
14 Federation army, has its own archives and attached to an analysis they
15 carried out documents, some of which you copied. Would that be correct?
16 A. After we had inspected the originals, these documents were
17 photocopied for us in the Army of the Federation of Bosnia and
18 Herzegovina. After we had selected the documents we were interested in,
19 a document about the handover was drawn up with a precise list of the
20 documents that we took over from the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
21 This was done in every such case.
22 Q. Okay. Thank you. Now, if we can go to D582, another source
23 which I want to ask you briefly about. It's actually D582 to D599.
24 There we see "The Institute For the Research of Crimes Against Humanity
25 and International Law" in Sarajevo.
1 Can you explain for us a little bit about what that institute is.
2 A. First maybe I should tell you something about the institute
3 itself. The Institute For the Research of Crimes Against Humanity and
4 International Law in Sarajevo is headed by Professor Smail Cekic who is a
5 historian and teaches at the faculty of political sciences in Sarajevo.
6 This is a very credible institute. It was established in 1992 and as an
7 institute it's part of the University of Sarajevo.
8 Q. And is it right then that the institute has its own collection of
9 documents and these are -- exhibits are from their collection?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Now, if we can look D600 and its reference to the FBiH
12 intelligence service. Could you just explain briefly the procedure which
13 you went through in order to obtain copies of documents from the FBiH
14 intelligence service.
15 A. With respect to the intelligence security service of the
16 Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina, the FOSS, the procedure was
17 slightly different because we were not able to inspect the original
18 documents. We were only able to look at their catalogues and tell them
19 what documents we are interested in. But they did not permit us, as the
20 other sources did - I'm referring to the army and so on - they did not
21 permit us to enter their premises and inspect the original documents. We
22 simply told them what documents we were interested in. Ms. Vidovic sent
23 an official letter to them, specifying the documents we were interested
24 in, and these documents were later delivered to us but only photocopies
25 of these documents were delivered to us.
1 Of course in this case also, we always asked that a separate list
2 be drawn up, signed by the person issuing the document and the person who
3 had received the document. In this case, it was sent by courier, but the
4 handover was conducted formally.
5 Q. And you retain the correspondence in relation to those
6 deliveries. Is that correct?
7 A. Yes. Whenever there was a handover of documents, I have a
8 separate file here in which we have a record for every set of documents,
9 and a letter including the request to inspect the documents. And after
10 that, the list of documents we received, the person who handed them over,
11 and the person from our office who received the documents.
12 Q. And finally if I could ask you about the documents from D622
13 onwards of which the source is Mirsad Mustafic to Ms. Edina Becirevic, 12
14 June 2005 in Tuzla. I'll ask you first of all to tell us who Mirsad
15 Mustafic is.
16 A. During the war, Mirsad Mustafic was president -- excuse me, a
17 representative of the Serbian municipality with a seat in Tuzla. After
18 the war he kept his private collection of documents. Ms. Vidovic
19 approached him via an official request that, first of all, he allow us to
20 see the originals and then Mr. Mustafic copied the documents and I put
21 together the records concerning the handing over of the documents on the
22 date specified. Could you just remind me what the number was?
23 Q. Yes. D662 and there -- and following. Are these documents which
24 Mr. Mustafic, as far as you know, retained from having handled during the
25 war in that capacity as a member of the municipal War Presidency?
1 A. Yes. Those are the documents that he received in his capacity as
2 the representative of the Srebrenica municipality with the seat in Tuzla.
3 Those were the documents that were -- pertaining to the period when he
4 was officially occupying that position.
5 Q. And according to the last column, he personally delivered those
6 documents to you on the 12th of June, 2005. Is that correct?
7 A. Yes, that is correct.
8 Q. I won't ask about some of the exhibits where I'm mentioned,
9 because then I might have to give evidence. Yes, thank you.
10 MR. JONES: I would ask -- in fact, Your Honour, I'm not sure
11 whether we should adopt the procedure which was adopted with the
12 Prosecution, that I now tender these 399 exhibits through this witness
13 because I want to ask for an exhibit number for this spreadsheet or
14 whether that should wait until the conclusion of Mr. Di Fazio's
15 cross-examination. I'm in your hands.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: We could do either, but I want to make sure and
17 want confirmation of, Madam Registrar, is in the first page of this
18 spreadsheet where we see the first exhibit showing the number D304, does
19 it reflect the proper sequence of the Defence exhibits that we have so
21 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour, that is correct.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: So I take it that the last document that has been
23 filed by the Defence was D303?
24 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So what I suggest, Mr. Jones, is that
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 you proceed with tendering all these documents, and the spreadsheet
2 itself will be exhibit -- Defence Exhibit D704.
3 MR. JONES: Yes.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: 704.
5 MR. JONES: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour. And --
6 JUDGE AGIUS: And of course the position is reserved for the
7 Prosecution to contest any of these documents, the admissibility of any
8 of these documents.
9 MR. DI FAZIO: Certainly, certainly. And I -- just in so far as
10 the numbering, just to let you know, we entirely agree with you and I was
11 going to recommend that myself. It suits us and makes sense, with
13 JUDGE AGIUS: So you're happy with that arrangement?
14 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Di Fazio.
16 So you may proceed along those lines. And the spreadsheet
17 itself, I don't think this goes with it, the e-mail from Mr. Roberts?
18 MR. JONES: No, that needn't be exhibited.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. That doesn't --
20 MR. JONES: And, Your Honour, I should say these exhibits have
21 been already delivered, so I don't ask the witness whether she produces
22 these exhibits to be tendered. I think the form of words already --
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Please proceed in the way which you consider to be
24 the most practical and which causes least confusion in the minds of the
25 rest of us.
1 MR. JONES: Yes. Well, indeed, in fact, Your Honour, I was
2 proposing to simply tender this witness for cross-examination and I think
3 enough has been said in terms of tendering these documents.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.
5 MR. JONES: Thank you.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: So for the record, the Defence witness -- Defence
7 has tendered into evidence 400 -- that would be 400 documents, starting
8 with Exhibit Number D304, right up and inclusive of the 703, the 703.
9 The description of each of these documents is contained in the
10 spreadsheet against the number given to each of these documents. And
11 this spreadsheet is also being tendered by the Defence and marked as
12 Defence exhibit D704.
13 MR. JONES: Yes. I'm much obliged, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: If anyone feels confused with the way I have
15 presented it, please speak out now before it becomes too late. All
17 Mr. Di Fazio seems to be happy as well.
18 All right, I think giving Ms. Edina Becirevic for any
19 cross-examination that you may wish to conduct. You've got 17 minutes
20 before we go into break.
21 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, I think I'll be well and truly finished by
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.
24 Cross-examined by Mr. Di Fazio:
25 Q. Madam Becirevic, during the course of your evidence, you said
1 that one of the tasks that you completed, amongst other tasks, was
2 researching documents; however, I understand that the thrust of your
3 evidence today is simply that -- this: You essentially were a collator
4 and collector of documents, these documents in particular. Correct?
5 A. Yes. I went through the archives, collected, and controlled what
6 other team members did.
7 Q. Thank you. I thought as much. Thank you. Would you please look
8 at D431 on your list. Now, that bears a particular ERN number, what is
9 referred to in this institution as an ERN number. Do you see those ERN
10 numbers? They begin with 0207. Do you see that?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Do you know if documents bearing that particular number form part
13 of a collection and has a special name within the ICTY?
14 A. Please allow me a moment.
15 Q. Certainly. Certainly. In fact, I think I can speed things up if
16 I just ask you this. Do you recognise that number as belonging to a
17 class of documents sometimes referred to as the Sokolac collection?
18 A. Yes. That's 431, it is a document from the Sokolac collection.
19 That is the only document contained in the spreadsheet from that
21 Q. Yes. Thank you very much.
22 MR. DI FAZIO: I have no further questions.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. I thank you, Mr. Di Fazio.
24 Is there re-examination, which I don't think there is?
25 MR. JONES: No, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you have any questions, Judge Brydensholt, Judge
3 I thought we would have had you for a little bit longer, Madam
4 Becirevic, but I see that you are going to return to your country maybe a
5 little bit earlier. I wish to thank you on behalf of Judge Brydensholt,
6 Judge Eser, and also on my own behalf for having been kind enough to come
7 over and give testimony on -- in this trial. You will now be escorted
8 out of the courtroom by our usher and you will receive all the attention
9 that you require by the other staff of this Tribunal to facilitate your
10 return back home. On behalf of everyone present here, I thank you once
11 more and I wish you a safe journey back home.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. -- I saw Mr. Wubben anxious to tell us
15 MR. WUBBEN: Not anxious, Your Honour.
16 [The witness withdrew]
17 MR. WUBBEN: Your Honour, I recall last Friday your request
18 towards Prosecution, that's the issue of the public or confidential label
19 of the 65 ter transcripts. Anyhow, I didn't expect today to have not
20 even one break, because that break would enable me to get my last
21 confirmation with Prosecutor who wasn't present during the course of
22 today. May I take it that I can come back to you first thing tomorrow
23 morning --
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Certainly.
25 MR. WUBBEN: And I can confirm it?
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Certainly. And Mr. Jones had to come back to us on
2 the DVD.
3 MR. JONES: Certainly I was going to come back to you on that and
4 the two other housekeeping matters. As for the DVD, I understood this
5 was a DVD shot on our helicopter ride by the Italians.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: I gather so.
7 MR. JONES: I think in fact what I have a DVD by the Caribinari
8 and in fact the Italians weren't on the helicopter. I reviewed the
9 photographs of Tilman and I didn't see the Italians on there. What I
10 have is a DVD with a reconnaissance trip and there is a voiceover in
11 Italian. I wouldn't want that to be an exhibit because I don't speak
12 Italian. On the other hand, there is a PowerPoint presentation which was
13 compiled by the guide which includes photographs -- well, obviously, a
14 number of photographs, but including Rakovici and Bradjevina which there
15 was an issue since we didn't actually travel there ourselves. Having
16 looked at that photograph, I think it could assist and for that to be
17 exhibited. And maybe the whole PowerPoint presentation should be
19 JUDGE AGIUS: We don't have an objection with that.
20 MR. WUBBEN: Either do we, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Either do you.
22 So, Madam Registrar, Mr. Tilman will look into this. We have a
23 PowerPoint presentation on CD prepared by Mr. Philip Berikoff that was
24 made available to us prior to the site visit, which we of course went
25 through individually. That will now enter into the evidence together
1 with the CD that contains the photos that Mr. Tilman himself took.
2 If there are others who have got photos that you would like to
3 have inserted in the records, I'm pleased to do that. I myself took
4 quite a few photos. I'm having them put on a CD. If necessary I'll make
5 you copies of it and then you can -- I'm not interested in having a
6 comparative analysis of who is the better photographer between me and Mr.
7 Blumenstock, but if there is anything you would like to keep in the
8 records for the purposes of this case.
9 It is clear to me that the DVD which was made available to us and
10 which I still haven't seen, to be honest with you, if you agree that this
11 was a video taken by the Italian contingent of the Caribinari prior to
12 the site visit or the helicopter flight on which we were, then obviously
13 I don't think we can -- we ought to have it because I wouldn't be so sure
14 that we went and so exactly the same things. I would recognise a good
15 portion of them, but not necessarily everything.
16 MR. JONES: Yes.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: So I would rather play it safe and agree with you
18 that it doesn't enter into the records.
19 Any objection to that, Mr. Wubben?
20 MR. WUBBEN: No, Your Honour.
21 MR. JONES: There are two other matters and, I'm sorry, I
22 wouldn't say random but varied. The other matter, and I don't know if
23 it's something that Your Honours can deal with now, but it's something
24 concerning simply the number of witnesses and the length of time which is
25 allocated which is -- and one has in a situation where you have two
1 measurements, you have the question of whether it is the shorter or the
2 longer which counts, and if I can illustrate that by saying by the 14th
3 of September we have finished with our 30 witnesses, can we count on it
4 that we might be able to bring more witnesses in that period.
5 Conversely, if get to 30 September and we're only up to Witness 25, do we
6 try to fit in another five more. The reason I ask is because it's very
7 important for us to figure out how much time we should budget for each
8 witness. Obviously there's an incentive to keep them as brief as
9 possible if it means that it might create space for us to bring other
10 witnesses in. So that's something which we could like your guidance on
11 and we would submit that particularly given what we say is the shortness
12 of time in all sorts of respects, that this should be resolved in favour
13 of the Defence and we should have the benefit of whatever comes later, so
14 in other words 30 witnesses or end of September, whichever comes later.
15 That would be -- if that makes sense. That's one matter which I can just
16 leave with Your Honours for the time being.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. We will discuss it amongst ourselves,
18 obviously, and we will come back to you on this. I don't think there is
19 a point in offering a first reaction to it. It requires thought and we
20 will discuss it and possibly come back to you tomorrow.
21 MR. JONES: Thank you, Your Honour. That -- in fact, that was
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Is that all? Because you said that you had a
24 couple of --
25 MR. JONES: Well, there is another matter and I hesitate in which
1 forum we should raise it you but I will mention it now. Ironically, Your
2 Honour mentioned fees and all of us being paid. In fact for the last two
3 weeks from May onwards we haven't been paid because of the registry
4 system. Nor for any of the work which we did in June have we received
5 fees because of the system run by OLAD. We're challenging that finding,
6 but as far as the summer is concerned, I'm sure as Your Honour can
7 appreciate we're going to be extremely busy during the recess.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
9 MR. JONES: But ironically, I think we will be the only party
10 that we won't be receiving any fees for that because the registry's
11 position is that because we're not in court we're not working. It may be
12 at a certain point that guidance from the Trial Chamber would help so we
13 can regulate matters with OLAD.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: This is a matter which I can offer you a first
15 reaction. I think out of the three Judges I have got experience of this
16 coming from the past. I encountered this before, and I fully understand
17 the problem, also the predicament in which the parties, Defence in
18 particular, usually finds themselves, in anticipation and during the
19 summer recess, which is not going to be a summer recess at all for them.
20 I won't speak for ourselves because we, too, probably won't have much of
21 a summer recess, as you can imagine. And me, even more, because I will
22 be dealing with other cases, including the issues -- all the joinder
23 applications that there are now pending before this Tribunal, together
24 with Judge Robinson and Judge Liu. So you can imagine what kind of a
25 summer recess we and I in particular are going to have.
1 In this past when this question arose, I did offer my -- not just
2 my understanding but also my services in a way of interceding with the
3 registrar in promoting your submission or any submission that you might
4 have and supporting it, that you will be required to do plenty of work
5 during the summer recess. It may be tied with presence here in The
6 Hague. It has been tied to that in the past in certain instances.
7 What I suggest is the following, that you take the matter up with
8 the registrar. I am going to cut and paste this relative part of the
9 transcript, which you can make use of in your dealings with the
10 registrar. At the same time, we will through the -- our registrar,
11 deputy registrar, communicate with the registrar and OLAD in particular,
12 to confirm our firm conviction that these three weeks that you are going
13 to have between the 23rd of July and the 14th of August you will be
14 required to dedicate in streamlining your defence particularly as a
15 result and in the wake of our decision to "disrupt" - and you are not to
16 take advantage of the word "disrupt" that I'm using now - disrupt your
17 original plan of bringing forward 73 witnesses already with a layout --
18 laid-out plan. I fully understand that you have got to go through all
19 these 73 witness statements, see what you need to cut off from some of
20 them, see what you are left with, and decide for yourself which will be
21 the 30 best witnesses that you will bring over, being the maximum number.
22 So we will support your -- of course we cannot decide for the registrar.
23 We have no authority to interfere with his discretion; that belongs to
24 him, and him as well. May I also have the reason why you're not being
25 paid -- haven't been paid since May or last week --
1 MR. JONES: It was because the trial was scheduled to end,
2 according to the registry's records, by the middle of May and therefore
3 as far as the registry is concerned the Defence aren't entitled to be
4 paid after that date even if the trial continues, unless they can
5 demonstrate compelling reasons -- exceptional circumstances.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. What I will do is I will ask my Senior
7 Legal Officer, please communicate this to him, to try and get the
8 registrar and the head of OLAD to come and see me at my Chambers at the
9 earliest, tomorrow or the day after, at a time which is convenient for
10 the three of us.
11 In the meantime, can I ask you to send us a brief note, it can be
12 done by e-mail, from Mr. Roberts copied, however, to the Prosecution,
13 specifying exactly when this was communicated to you, when you were paid
14 last, and any indication of what the intentions of the registrar are and
15 anticipated payments, when they are anticipated to resume. Because the
16 last thing I want is to have a situation where -- with the approach of
17 the summer recess you have first this suggestion that you will not be
18 paid for three weeks because that's a recess, you're not supposed to be
19 working, and secondly you would also not have been paid in the meantime
20 since I don't know when.
21 So we will look into that matter with the caveat that we will
22 only discuss with the registrar and not in any way interfere with his
23 discretion. However, we will express our preoccupation and our desire
24 that responsible counsel and Defence teams be kept adequately remunerated
25 as we go along and not be paid in hiccups --
1 MR. JONES: Yes. Thank you very much indeed. We appreciate that
2 support and those comments. And we raise it also because of course it's
3 the right of the accused to have legal representation provided to him.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Of course. If you encounter further problems,
5 please, as long as we are seized of this case, do not hesitate to
6 communicate them to us. And you are also free to raise this matter
7 anywhere else or through the Association of Defence Counsel.
8 MR. JONES: I'm very much obliged, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Nothing else.
10 So I take it you don't have the next witness available to start
12 MR. JONES: I'm afraid not.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: So we will resume tomorrow morning at 9.00 here in
14 Courtroom III, and we will start with witness number 2. Right. Thank
15 you, and good afternoon -- good evening.
16 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.47 p.m.,
17 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 5th day of
18 July, 2005, at 9.00 a.m.