1 Wednesday, 6 July 2005
2 [Open session]
3 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.
4 [The accused entered court]
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Registrar, could you call the case, please, and
6 good morning to you.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour. Case Number
8 IT-03-68-T, the Prosecutor versus Naser Oric.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you.
10 Mr. Oric, good morning to you. Can you follow the proceedings in
11 your own language?
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. I can
13 follow the proceedings in my own language.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. You may sit down.
15 Appearances for Prosecution.
16 MR. WUBBEN: Good morning, Your Honours. My name is Jan Wubben,
17 lead counsel for the Prosecution; also good morning to my learned friends
18 of the Defence. I'm here together with co-counsel, Mr. Gramsci Di Fazio,
19 and Ms. Joanne Richardson, as well as our case manager,
20 Ms. Donnica Henry-Frijlink.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you and good morning to you and your team.
22 Appearances for the Defence.
23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. I am
24 Vasvija Vidovic, appearing for Mr. Oric, together with Mr. John Jones.
25 Together with us are our legal assistant, Ms. Adisa Mehic, and our case
1 manager, Mr. Geoff Roberts.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, and good morning to you and your team.
3 So any preliminaries before we bring in the witness?
4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, two brief issues.
5 During the Prosecutor's case in our cross-examination, we were very fair.
6 Yesterday I looked at the information as to how and when we submitted our
7 lists of exhibits to be used during the cross-examination, and I
8 established that in a large number of cases those lists were submitted as
9 soon as we received the proofing notes, in other words before the
10 witnesses came to testify. Those that we did not submit in that way were
11 submitted within the due time for the Prosecutors to get ready.
12 Yesterday I spoke to Ms. Richardson. I asked her when we would
13 receive the proofing notes and she said this would be around 4.00 or 5.00.
14 We expected those. I waited. The time went by. It was already 9.00. I
15 called all the telephone numbers that were available to me, including the
16 case manager. I left a number of messages, and finally around 9.00 in the
17 afternoon, I believe that it was 5 minutes after 9.00, I called the
18 security and I kindly asked them to check whether there was anybody in the
19 Office of the Prosecutor. Mr. Ray from the security checked and told me
20 there was nobody there. He was very kind. He did his best to help me.
21 And then I asked him to make a note of that.
22 At 10.15, I received a list finally. This list had been sent, I
23 suppose, from somebody from the OTP. That person probably sent it from
24 home. And what raised my biggest concern and what made me even cross was
25 the fact that it says on the list that the Prosecutor would be using three
1 tapes from P329, from the interview of our Prosecutor. This is a very
2 voluminous material which I tried to study, but I didn't have time. Today
3 when I came here at quarter past 8.00 it says here that the Prosecutor
4 will be using P328 and the tape from that exhibit, which does not allow me
5 any possibility to look into that document to see what it is about.
6 I think this is not fair. This is not how we behaved. It is the
7 Prosecutor's duty to be fair not to us as their colleagues, but to the
8 accused. The accused has to be in the position to get the information to
9 help us represent him. I would kindly ask you to order the Prosecutor to
10 behave in the way that will enable us to prepare ourselves or the
11 cross-examination. If not, if things continue in this way, then we will
12 decide not to be fair in turn. We used to deliver our lists for
13 cross-examination a day before we actually started our cross-examination.
14 That is the first issue, Your Honours.
15 And the second issue is also brief. It is very difficult for me
16 to believe that what I agree with the Prosecutor will be honoured, and
17 since we are short of time, just for the record, I would like to say the
18 following. There was a correspondence between the Prosecutor and
19 ourselves about some very important materials that have to do with the
20 Defence case. I'm talking about the materials of the -- from the archives
21 of the Drina Corps that the Prosecutor's office seized from the Government
22 of Republika Srpska some half a year ago. This is the public archives of
23 Bosnia and Herzegovina which is not in the possession of a source that we
24 might be able to consult; it is in their hands. We were corresponding
25 with them for two or three months. We never received a single document.
1 Finally Mr. Wubben stood up in the courtroom and promised that these would
2 be submitted to us before the beginning of July. Nothing happened.
3 Mr. Di Fazio was fair. He explained and he said that he would do his
4 utmost to help us and that these -- this is underway. Kindly appreciate
5 that we need this material now. We have been given a deadline of two
6 months. In order for me to be able to use this material, I have to have
7 it before the next recess. If I receive an exculpatory material after
8 that, the Prosecutor has to be aware of the position I will be in.
9 Through my channels I have been able to obtain only two documents
10 from that collection, and believe me they are absolutely exculpatory for
11 my client. They refer to the attacks which are the subject of the
12 indictment. These are my concerns at the moment and that's why I wanted
13 both of these concerns to be on the record.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, and I think they are very valid concerns that,
15 however, need to be responded to by the Prosecution before we address
17 In the meantime, I would like the usher, please, to go to the
18 witness and explain to him that there might be a slight delay and offer
19 our apologies to him.
20 Explain to him that we are discussing things that have got nothing
21 to do with him. Ms. Trevisan, did you hear me?
22 Yes, I don't know -- let's take them one by one. I would prefer
23 to start with this last one which is the one which is more serious than
24 the two -- of the two.
25 MR. WUBBEN: Yes --
1 JUDGE AGIUS: This last one, the Drina Corps documents.
2 MR. WUBBEN: Yes, Your Honour. I requested Mr. Gramsci Di Fazio
3 to respond to that.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Di Fazio.
5 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you, Your Honours. I wish we'd been informed
6 that this was going to be raised this morning, because then I might have
7 been given an opportunity to spend ten minutes, that's all I would have
9 JUDGE AGIUS: You can spend ten minutes after the break, if you
11 MR. DI FAZIO: If you need more details, after I finish my
12 submission, I'll do that and I can come back to you later, but I can lay
13 out our position pretty quickly.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Then go ahead.
15 MR. DI FAZIO: There has been extensive correspondence about this
16 matter toing and froing between the Defence and the Prosecution. Once
17 again I repeat the submission that I have made in the past when these
18 disclosure issues have come up and that's there's absolutely no reason for
19 us to delay getting this material to them, absolutely none whatsoever and
20 we have been doing what we can to get as much material to them about the
21 Drina Corps as we can. The problem lies in researching the material. The
22 Defence sent us some correspondence and the sequence of correspondence is
23 important because there's a large -- a significant period of time when we
24 sought further information. I think off the top of my head it was the
25 first name of commanders -- they gave us surnames, but we needed the first
1 names and there was a long time of getting that information from the
2 Defence and eventually they got it. And as soon as they got it, searches
3 were underway. And furthermore a significant proportion of that material
4 has been available already on EDS. Some of the names they gave us were
5 Mr. Deronjic, someone called Sic and Jisic and apparently they are already
6 on EDS. So the matter has by no means - by no means - been left alone.
7 On the contrary it's been attended to as fast as we could, as we could
8 deal with it.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: That's presenting it in a very simple, placid
10 manner, which with our experience on the Bench, we know immediately that
11 there's still a lot of work to be done. What is of my -- of concern to us
12 is that we have started the Defence case without this material being
13 available in its entirety, as requested, and it seems, as promised -- as
14 promised. What is of more concern is the Rule 68 material that may be
15 contained in it.
16 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, I appreciate --
17 JUDGE AGIUS: So because -- as far as Rule 68 material is
18 concerned, it's no excuse coming forward and saying this is in the -- in
19 the electronic data system and it is therefore available.
20 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: It doesn't work like that.
22 MR. DI FAZIO: The problem is, if Your Honours please, purely and
23 simply a question of research. If you want I can address you after the
24 break and give you the full details. It sounds to me like it probably
25 would be a better idea because the Prosecution is not going to accept what
1 the Defence has said about this. The Prosecution has done whatever it can
2 to accommodate within -- within its physical abilities to accommodate this
3 and to deal with this. And we're trying, we're endeavouring to do this.
4 The problem has been always refining the search parameters so the searches
5 become more manageable and we get more targeted material and then getting
6 it to the Defence whether by way of EDS or delivering large volumes of
7 paper. But I can give you -- I'll go back and I'll - if you permit me -
8 I'll go back during the break and I'll look at the correspondence and I'll
9 come to you with the correspondence and I'll tell you --
10 JUDGE AGIUS: When did this -- I thank you, Mr. Di Fazio. When
11 did this story start, the exchange of correspondence on these archives?
12 MR. DI FAZIO: January.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: January of this year?
14 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: And in January, what have you received? Leave the
16 EDS alone for the time being because EDS, you have the facility to access
17 it, I would imagine, and if you haven't accessed it it's a case of mea
18 culpa, but with regard to proper disclosure what has been going on?
19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in our first letter we
20 provided plenty criteria so that a number of documents could be found. We
21 did not provide the names of the commanders of the brigades that we didn't
22 know at the moment. Then there were two letters in May, and in those
23 letters on the -- on the 3rd of May we provided the full names of
24 commanders and all the other criteria and it was promised at that moment
25 that this would happen until June. If this existed on the EDS, I would
1 not even ask for that. I claim that the correspondence that we are
2 looking for cannot be found on the EDS. The documents of the Drina Corps
3 have not been put on the EDS. There are some documents arising from those
4 documents -- the commanders, but are of a different nature. We want
5 reports of the Serbian units that participated in those attacks. The
6 reports that they sent. These are the reports that we want because
7 they're absolutely relevant and this is what we asked for on the 3rd of
8 May. Not a single document have we received so far.
9 Sometimes the criteria may have been too broad, but that doesn't
10 mean that some of them could not have been met and some of the documents
11 could not have been provided. I'm asking for this especially because in
12 keeping with Rule 65(B) we asked for inspection. I asked for inspection
13 and I said if you don't have resources and that is a problem, allow me to
14 carry out an inspection of that archive in your presence. I will spend my
15 time, my resources, and I will try and find what I need. This was not
16 allowed to me.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Anyway, you will come back to us, Mr. Di Fazio,
18 after the break.
19 MR. DI FAZIO: I will, I will.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: And I suggest that you better be ready with an
21 answer that clears the way for us to continue with the case because, if
22 not, we will stop the case. And then we will suspend the proceedings
23 until we are ensured that the Defence is provided with all the
24 documentation that enables them to defend their client well. SO you better
25 come --
1 MR. DI FAZIO: I will come back to you, chapter and verse, with
2 the correspondence of the --
3 JUDGE AGIUS: It's not the correspondence; it's actually -- if
4 these documents have been asked for as way back as January, I do accept,
5 of course, that if you did not have clear parameters, certain researches
6 had to wait. But I take it that you now have all the parameters.
7 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, that's what the correspondence will reveal.
8 So it's important that I show that to you because it will -- that I lead
9 you through it, because only then will you understand how the story
10 developed and only then will you understand how the Prosecution has been
11 endeavouring to provide this material.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: But I don't know how voluminous this material is
13 because obviously I haven't seen it.
14 MR. DI FAZIO: No, you don't.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: There is, obviously, again, one thing on which you
16 are not agreeing. You're saying that it is on the EDS and Madam Vidovic
17 is saying that none of it is.
18 MR. DI FAZIO: Now, the picture is not that simple, with respect,
19 Your Honour. There's -- some of it is on EDS. Now, I can find that out
20 and I can give you --
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, but at least the Defence should be told,
22 "Listen, all of these documents from the Drina Corps archives are on
23 EDS." And then she can -- he or her staff can look into it. Still,
24 presence of these documents in EDS does not satisfy the Rule 68
25 disclosure, if you are aware that there is such exculpatory material. So
1 at the end of the day, I don't want to allow the case to go forward and
2 come -- find ourselves in a situation, either too late in the day or after
3 that judgement has been handed down, that there was exculpatory material
4 in this archive which was never disclosed and then blow the whole -- blow
5 the whole case up. That is, if we come to a judgement which is contrary
6 to -- against the accused because obviously that -- we don't know. But
7 please, I hope I've made --
8 MR. DI FAZIO: I understand --
9 JUDGE AGIUS: We have got responsibilities that go much beyond the
10 ones of disclosure that you have.
11 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: So the other issue, the handing to the Defence of
13 the list of -- do you want to address also this part about --
14 MR. WUBBEN: Yes, before I give the floor to
15 Ms. Joanne Richardson --
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead --
17 MR. WUBBEN: To give the particular details of yesterday, I would
18 like to underline that already in the 65 ter Conference we raised the
19 issue of the vagueness of the summary -- of some of the summaries, and
20 throughout the list of summaries we identified that those summaries of
21 witnesses provided by the Defence are sometimes so general that it is hard
22 to prepare oneself and that there is a need for further details. So today
23 we will do a submission for some guideline. And in that respect,
24 Mr. Gramsci Di Fazio will address the Court. But please be informed that
25 we already were aware on Thursday and addressed the Senior Legal Officer
1 to -- in that respect. And that gives a lot of difficulties for the
2 Office of the Prosecutor to prepare on a solid base for any witnesses to
3 come. This has to do -- also is one of the reasons why it is also
4 difficult for my colleague, Ms. Joanne Richardson, to prepare solid for
5 the witness we will -- who will testify today.
6 I'll give the floor to her.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Richardson.
8 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, good morning, Your Honours. Good morning to
9 the Defence.
10 Your Honour, I'd first like to say that it was drawn to my
11 attention yesterday by Madam Vidovic, who was very concerned about when
12 the Prosecution would give the Defence a witness -- exhibit list, excuse
13 me. I advised Madam Vidovic that in fact I would try my best to get it to
14 her by 6.00. I did not say 4.00. And in fact, when the court session
15 ended, I immediately returned to my office and started preparing the
16 exhibit list.
17 I just have to say that in respect to the summary that was
18 provided, I'm glad that this was raised this morning, because, in fact,
19 Your Honours, we look at the summaries that are very vague, very broad --
20 excuse me, the witness summaries, the Defence witness summaries. It
21 really does hamper the Prosecution from providing an exhibit list in an
22 efficient manner, in an early manner, to the Defence. We have a summary,
23 for instance, with respect to this witness that's very vague where he's --
24 supposedly was supposed to testify about matters in the Vlasenica area.
25 And indeed this witness has talked about, yesterday, matters involving
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Srebrenica, especially about speaking to Ferat Hodzic and other matters
2 that were not in the summaries. So it was difficult to prepare beforehand
3 and anticipate an exhibit list.
4 So I should -- I should say that because the Defence is providing
5 these very broad, vague summaries, it's really hampering us from in the
6 future providing them with an exhibit list as early as they would like.
7 Now, with respect to the timing, I myself left the office last
8 night at 12.30. At 9.00 I received a call from security advising that a
9 Madam Vidovic had called. He was very -- he said that she was unclear
10 about what she wanted but she had been trying to reach me. Security had
11 not been able to provide her with my extension. For some reason it's
12 not -- they didn't have it available. So they contacted me about this
13 phone call. I asked whether or not Ms. Vidovic had in fact left a phone
14 number; they said she had not. I knew very well that she was calling
15 about the exhibit list and I had been working feverishly to prepare for
16 her. The case manager had already went home. I completed the exhibit
17 list a little after 9.00 and we went it out immediately. The only thing I
18 can say with respect to the tapes is that we do apologise for not being
19 very specific with respect to the tapes that we were using. We will use
20 them towards the end of the morning. But in fact, Your Honour, it was no
21 intention deliberately on the part of the Prosecution to in any way hamper
22 the Defence. I can only say that consideration needs to be given to the
23 Prosecution with respect to these summaries which will indeed not only
24 affect our preparation for cross-examination but will affect the exhibit
1 And I should say with respect to what Madam Vidovic said about
2 their providing the Prosecution with the exhibit list, in fact, is not
3 entirely true. Indeed, during the Prosecution case we received exhibit
4 lists late into the evening and sometimes the very morning of the
5 cross-examination. So I do think that the Prosecution needs to be treated
6 fairly and the Prosecution will make all reasonable efforts to get an
7 exhibit list to the Defence as soon as it is reasonably possible to do so.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: There is not yet enough electricity in the air, so I
9 give you back the floor, Madam Vidovic.
10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, first of all, I really
11 can't understand this attitude. If I say that we received the submission
12 at quarter past 10.00, then it wasn't at 9.00. And what Ms. Richardson is
13 saying is simply not true. We have very good records on the times when we
14 sent our lists to the Prosecutor and when they sent our lists to us.
15 However, we are talking about a different issue here and this issue is
16 always present. I am just looking at the professional attitude of every
17 of our learned friends. When it comes to Ms. Richardson, we have the
18 hardest time. Either she sends us a huge list of documents that she never
19 uses, which she has done a number of times, or she makes similar mistakes.
20 At 10.15 yesterday, she told us that she would use P329 with three
21 tapes. I had to spend hours reading the transcripts of those tapes. This
22 morning it was no longer P329 but P328. I was clear, I believe,
23 Your Honour. Whatever I'm saying here, you have to believe me that I am
24 telling the truth.
25 I apologise, I forgot a very important thing. It is true that the
1 Prosecutor at the 65 ter meeting raised the issue of the alleged vagueness
2 of our summaries. The legal assistant to the Chamber deemed that they
3 were clear enough, that they were not vague. So much from me when it
4 comes to the summaries. And the summary for this witness was also rather
5 clear. We said very clearly that the witness was in a position to be
6 politically active from Tuzla and have influence in the relevant area.
7 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, if I could just --
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Richardson.
9 MS. RICHARDSON: Just to clarify, when I said that the exhibit
10 list --
11 JUDGE AGIUS: And this will be the last -- this will be the end of
13 MS. RICHARDSON: Of course. When I said the exhibit list was sent
14 out, I meant that I sent the exhibit list to the case manager who then
15 gathered -- who put it in the correct format and forwarded it to the
16 Defence. Now, as I stand here making this submission, there is an
17 indication and, for the record, that last October when the case started
18 that the Prosecution received an exhibit list from the Defence at 10.30 in
19 the evening prior to the cross-examination. And I raise that not to say
20 that this will be our practice, but we are doing the best we can under the
21 circumstances. And with respect to what Madam Vidovic said about the
22 witness -- the witness exhibits that I have been providing, I have simply
23 responded to the complaint that providing too many exhibits and too many
24 documents and I don't use them subsequently hampers the Defence. So what
25 I did last evenings was spend an enormous amount of time to narrow down
1 the documents that I would use so it would be -- so it would not hamper
2 the Defence and would be convenient for them. It seems that is also a
3 problem for them.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's cut it down to the basic essentials.
5 Let's start with the Drina Corps. The Drina Corps, we will wait
6 until after the break. We will hear what you have to say, Mr. Di Fazio.
7 We reserve our position. We are not allowing -- going to allow a
8 situation to obtain, whereby, particularly after the recess, we start
9 again this case without these documents having been delivered entirely.
10 In the meantime, and this is the position -- of course, I am speaking for
11 the time being without having had the benefit of consulting my two
12 clients -- my two Judges, sorry. In the meantime, may I please make it
13 clear that whatever can be disclosed should be disclosed. You shouldn't
14 wait until you have the entire dossier and then disclose it in bulk. In
15 the meantime -- this should be an ongoing, rolling process. So if -- I
16 can't imagine that since January all these researches that have been
17 taking place have produced nothing. Whatever they have produced, they
18 should be in the hands of the Defence, making it clear that this is an
19 ongoing process, it is not ready, part of it is disclosed under Rule 68,
20 part of it is disclosed under Rule 66, and it should go on. But I simply
21 hope to God that you will not put it in a position where we really have to
22 say: This is crucial. Because these documents may have been crucial in
23 the very beginning in the preparation by the Defence of the case. So
24 please do understand that. We are at the very early stages. So if there
25 has been damage -- prejudice, we are - still at the stage - where that can
1 be remedied, but don't let it go any further because if you do, then you
2 are creating big problems for the Trial Chamber which will have to stop
3 until this process is concluded --
4 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, I'm hoping that after I've
5 addressed you after the break and after you've given me an opportunity to
6 go and see -- to look and refer to the correspondence, that expressions
7 like "don't let it go any further" will simply become redundant and you
8 will see -- you will see -- you will understand --
9 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm glad to hear the, Mr. Di Fazio.
10 MR. DI FAZIO: -- the point I'm trying to make. The Prosecution
11 has not left this address alone, it has not. It has addressed it. And
12 that's why I was so surprised to hear out of the blue this morning these
13 submissions. So -- but as I said, allow me the opportunity to --
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Certainly, Mr. --
15 MR. DI FAZIO: And I'll take you through chapter and verse the
16 proceedings -- the correspondence.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Certainly, Mr. Jones [sic], certainly, Mr. Jones.
18 And my attention is being drawn by because -- yes, Mr. Di Fazio. My
19 attention is being drawn by Judge Brydensholt to 66(B), particularly in
20 light of what Ms. Vidovic has openly stated here, that she formally asked
21 you to allow her to inspect these archives under your supervision, when I
22 say "your," someone from your office. And this request, it seems, was not
23 entertained. I do draw your attention to Rule 66(B), which lays down that
24 the Prosecutor -- this may change a little bit in a short while, but for
25 the time being this is how it is. "Prosecutor shall on request permit the
1 Defence to inspect any books, documents, photographs, and tangible objects
2 in the Prosecutor's custody or control which are material to the
3 preparation of the Defence or are intended for use by the Prosecutor as
4 evidence at trial or were obtained from or belonged to the accused."
5 So we have these three possibilities. So please do keep that in
6 mind as well. Thanks, Judge Brydensholt.
7 The other matter, the other matter. The other matter, this is
8 where trial experience from Bench and parties becomes very important.
9 Such incidents are unavoidable. They happen in each and every case. I
10 must also confess that this compared to other cases that I have been
11 involved with, the summaries that have been provided by the Defence could
12 definitely contain more detail, but they are certainly much less vague
13 than summaries I have seen in other cases. So they do contain much more
14 detail than summaries that I have had the opportunity to see in other
15 cases. Still, of course, I do concede that there are certain areas which
16 remain vague as you read them.
17 The situation is also bound to change now as the Defence selects
18 the 30 witnesses that they're -- maximum of 30 witnesses that they will be
19 bringing forward, which possibly and probably would entail eliminating
20 areas which we said we don't want to hear evidence about, and including in
21 those summaries areas which previously those would have been dealt with by
22 other witnesses and which now will be incorporated in the testimony of
23 this maximum period -- maximum number of 30 witnesses.
24 I do appreciate, because this happens in every case, that there is
25 a slight difference between the position of the Defence and the position
1 of the Prosecution in this context because usually during the Prosecution
2 case you have statements which most of the time you don't have during the
3 Defence -- the Defence case because the Defence usually does not come up
4 with written statements or take statements of persons they have
5 interviewed and who are testifying here. And that does place the
6 Prosecution in a different position.
7 Still, however, there is this overriding principle in trials. If
8 you reduce the trial into a duel amongst yourself and everyone wants to
9 draw the last drop of blood, then it will be -- you will be creating a
10 tragic situation. You have the same responsibility that we have, to do
11 your utmost in this search to find out the truth, a truth which would
12 ultimately end up with the acquittal of the accused, or the truth which
13 could ultimately send the accused to a long period of imprisonment. So
14 they have got responsibility as Defence counsel, you have got
15 responsibility as Prosecutors.
16 With regard to cooperating during the trial itself in the
17 production and -- of evidence and the concluding of the evidentiary state,
18 you have to cooperate; if you don't cooperate, we will have to impose. We
19 don't like to impose deadlines when it comes to when you should file the
20 list of -- exhibit list, the exhibit list. I mean, you realise that we
21 have had these incidents come and go during the trial and they were always
22 sorted out whenever there was good faith. And I must say that there was
23 always good faith. There were instances where rightfully Mr. Jones and
24 Madam Vidovic stood up and said, We have only received this. We have just
25 been informed this morning that this document or this exhibit or the other
1 exhibit are going to be made use of, or these exhibits are being tendered
2 today for the first time; we haven't had an opportunity to see them.
3 There were even requests for postponements, adjournments, et cetera, and
4 then good faith always prevailed. Because I am sure that there is no one
5 in this courtroom from your side or from that side that is relying on bad
6 faith as a remedy or as a solution to the problems that may arise. It
7 won't work and you would be very stupid, very foolish if you tried it.
8 So may I suggest the following. I do realise, and I'm sure that
9 the Defence realises also because they have passed through this, that it
10 is not always easy at the end of the testimony of a client -- of a witness
11 for -- brought forward by the other side to be in a position to draw up
12 and forward to the opposite side, to the other party, a comprehensive
13 exhibit list. However, I also believe because I have lived this as
14 Defence counsel myself, that while you proceed during -- we had this
15 witness testify for three hours yesterday or so. I'm sure that while you
16 are proceeding you are identifying in your mind the documents that you
17 will need to produce which will then be dug up with the help of the case
18 manager. And any leftovers, I know that it's going to take you hours.
19 But we are all working at a stressful rate here. And when you tell me,
20 We're here until midnight, I quite believe you. But when Ms. Vidovic
21 tells me that she was reading the transcript after half past 10.00 when
22 she received notice that you were going to make use of tape 329 or
23 whatever, I believe her, too. No one should be working at these rates and
24 at this stressful -- I mean, I would prefer to see a much more comfortable
25 and stress-free environment; unfortunately it's not like that. It's not
1 like that for you and it's not like that for us. So when you bring up
2 instances and incidents like these, we try to pacify the situation as much
3 as we can.
4 I don't think either party has been unreasonable -- willingly
5 unreasonable in this case, in this area of exchanging information between
6 you in preparation of either the examination-in-chief or
7 cross-examination. This witness hasn't finished as yet. I don't know how
8 long to expect him in the stand there, in the witness stand. What I
9 expect from you throughout is that you try and finish this exercise at
10 your earliest. If you see that it is going to present you with problems,
11 then your duty is to get hold of Madam Vidovic, Mr. Jones, Mr. Roberts, or
12 whoever, and say, I promised you my papers at 6.00. I'm sorry, I'm not in
13 a position to provide them at 6.00, my list at 6.00. I will provide it at
14 9.00. And if at 9.00 you're not in a position to provide it, then you
15 should ring up again -- when I say you, Ms. Richardson, today it's you,
16 tomorrow it will be Mr. Di Fazio, the day after it will be Mr. Wubben, and
17 the last day it will be Ms. Sellers, so please don't -- I'm addressing you
18 because you happen to be -- but the thing is courtesy is wonderful and it
19 is necessary. Saying things with a little bit of honey rather than in a
20 confrontational manner also helps.
21 So at the end of the day, this is how you have to work amongst
22 yourselves. If you don't do this, there will be trouble and we'll have to
23 start imposing deadlines. We'll say, sitting finished at 2.00, you have
24 to hand the exhibit list by not later than 5.30, or 6.00. And we hate to
25 do that. We hate to do that. But if there is going to be a delay, you
1 should be in consultation with the other party. Please don't come forward
2 and tell me, because I didn't know how to reach Ms. Vidovic. I don't know
3 how to reach Ms. Vidovic, and I don't know how to reach you. But you
4 shouldn't be in a position to say I don't know how to reach Mr. Jones and
5 I don't know how to reach Ms. Vidovic. You should be in the position to
6 know how to reach Mr. Jones and Ms. Vidovic, if need be. Maybe not
7 directly, maybe through the registrar of the Tribunal, I don't know. It's
8 up to you how you have built up the relationship together in prosecuting
9 this case. But it's -- we don't want to hear this. I mean, if we want to
10 approach you on something which is administrative, procedural, and which
11 is necessary to be clear about before the next day, we get the registrar
12 and he gets in touch with whoever needs to be contacted. I mean, and
13 that's how it should be. But I don't expect Ms. Vidovic -- and I do
14 understand her complaint saying at 10.30 finally -- no one should be
15 waiting until 10.30 unless he has or she has shown her availability to
16 wait. And if ultimately there are problems, we will see them here and we
17 will tackle them here and we will act as arbiters, as I can assure you we
18 can. But for the time being, please, we need -- or rather, you need to
19 device a modus vivendi which will address the problems that you have with
20 what you consider to be vagueness of the summaries provided by the
21 Defence. The Defence -- I suppose you've heard what I had to say where
22 you have complaints from the Defence regarding parts of the summaries
23 which they consider to be vague. If you are in a position to elaborate on
24 that, you should elaborate on that. What I'm saying is: If you don't
25 create a modus vivendi among -- between yourselves which is conducive to a
1 proper way of going ahead with this case, then we will intervene. But we
2 have seen you cooperate in the past. We -- I don't even need to consult
3 the other two Judges on this. We are 100 per cent sure that you approach
4 these matters in the most responsible matter and that none of you really
5 wants to back from cooperation. So let's hope that you will solve these
6 problems and that when there are problems they will not be of obstacle to
8 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, on behalf of the Prosecution we will
9 contact the Defence if at the very late hour it's determined that the
10 exhibit list will not be forthcoming as we had promised. But I should say
11 we have always cooperated with them. When their exhibit list came in very
12 late in the evenings, we contacted them. When it came in in the morning
13 before cross -- cross-examination, we never raised a complaint to the
14 Trial Chamber. In fact, we've been working with their schedule and we
15 understand very much how intense this process is and we know that they
16 weren't able to provide us with the exhibit list sometimes very late at
17 night or early in the morning. And we've worked with that and we have
18 never brought a complaint to the Trial Chamber. So I feel it's
19 unfortunate that Madam Vidovic felt the need to raise it --
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Don't push it further, now.
21 MS. RICHARDSON: But, Your Honour --
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Richardson, I've tried to calm the waters. I've
23 tried to create an environment that would allow you to go around the table
24 and talk and discuss and find a solution in the modus vivendi. To me,
25 what I expected is for you and Madam Vidovic to stand up and tell us, We
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 have taken into consideration your suggestions and we will act
2 responsibly, accordingly. Finished. And we don't want to hear --
3 MS. RICHARDSON: And we will, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, that's finished. Then the matter is closed.
5 Anything else? Not on this, I think we've already said that. All right.
6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Usher, please, could you please usher in the
9 [Trial Chamber confers]
10 [The witness entered court]
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you, Mr. Redzic.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you, too. Welcome back to this
14 Tribunal and to this case. We are going to proceed with your evidence.
15 You're not going to repeat the solemn declaration that you made yesterday;
16 there is no need for that. But I'm just reminding you of the solemn
17 declaration that you made yesterday.
18 Madam Vidovic will proceed with her questions, and when we finish
19 then we'll start with the cross-examination. We'll stop at 10.30 sharp
20 or -- Madam Vidovic, or a little bit before. So we need to go until 10.30
21 because at 10.30 I have a meeting with two other Judges on something else.
22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have only a few short
23 questions for Mr. Redzic. I almost completed my examination-in-chief
24 yesterday. Yesterday we left it off at the moment when I wanted to show
25 the D705 map to the witness. I would kindly ask the usher to show the
1 witness this map. The number is D705.
2 WITNESS: IZET REDZIC [Resumed]
3 [Witness answered through interpreter]
4 Examined by Ms. Vidovic: [Continued]
5 Q. Mr. Redzic, good morning. Before I ask you anything, I would like
6 to greet you in this courtroom. Could you please look at this map once
7 again. You saw it already once yesterday and yesterday we spoke about one
8 of your conversations with Mr. Hodzic and also about a conversation with
9 Mr. Becir Mekanic. You mentioned certain units, the units from Vlasenica
10 that were billeted in Cerska and in Dzile. Now I would kindly ask you to
11 show the Chamber on this map where Cerska and Dzile are located.
12 If I may be of assistance. Can you look at Nova Kasaba and above
13 Nova Kasaba look at the area there. You'll find Cerska there. Could you
14 please mark the place if the felt-tip pen is at hand.
15 A. [Marks]
16 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Redzic. And now the village called
17 Dzile. This village is to the left. A bit below, Mr. Redzic, a bit
19 A. [Marks]
20 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Redzic. You found it. Thank you.
21 A. I apologise, my sight is not that good so it's very difficult to
22 for me to find my bearings on this map.
23 Q. This will do. Thank you very much. Are these the places you
24 mentioned yesterday and the places that you mentioned in your
25 conversations with Mr. Mekanic and Mr. Hodzic and the places in which the
1 Vlasenica units were?
2 A. Yes. Those were the enclaves in the Vlasenica municipality which
3 were still free and where there was a large number of the population from
4 Vlasenica. And this was the area where the local population still resided
5 in great numbers.
6 Q. Thank you very much. I'll go back to your conversation with
7 Mr. Hodzic because this is where we left it off yesterday. You mentioned
8 that he actually mentioned Hamed Salihovic to you. Did he tell you
9 anything about his roles and his efforts in organising things on the
11 A. Yes, he did. Since I know Hamed in these conversations,
12 Mr. Hodzic told me that this man, Salihovic, was very active in trying to
13 organise all that and to see the decision taken of the ground with regard
14 to the establishment of the subregion. I'm talking about the political
15 and the military nature of that decision. On several occasions, he came
16 to Cerska and to Konjevic Polje during the months of November, December,
17 January, and until the fall of Cerska. He was there on a number of
18 occasions and he tried to create and unify both the political and the
19 military organisations in that area.
20 Q. These efforts on the part of Mr. Hodzic, were they fruitful? What
21 did Mr. Hodzic tell you?
22 A. No, the -- his efforts were not fruitful because the conditions
23 were not ripe for that. Nothing was there in place to implement the
24 decision that was passed.
25 Q. Is it correct that after the fall of Cerska some other people came
1 with Mr. Hodzic, that they arrived in Tuzla, and did you also speak to
2 these people about the functioning of the subregion?
3 A. As I've already said, Mr. Ferid Hodzic arrived in Tuzla after the
4 fall of Cerska with a large group of soldiers, of men, from those areas.
5 I spoke to the majority of these people. I wanted to hear their opinion
6 as to whether the situation really was as had been conveyed to me by Mr.
7 Hodzic. I must say that in any of these conversations and in every of
8 them, these people described the situation in the same words and the story
9 was always the same, whomever I heard it from.
10 Q. Yesterday you told us that you were the president of the War
11 Presidency of Vlasenica, with the seat in Tuzla. Provided that the
12 subregion was formed in a legal fashion, would you be familiar with that
14 A. Absolutely. Since I am a professional and I dealt with the tasks
15 that were within my competence. And if I may, I would offer some
16 suggestions. It is possible to forward a suggestion about formation of
17 the subregion the same way certain proposals could come from the
18 municipalities themselves. But at that time and in that area, such laws
19 were in force - I believe they still are - that War Presidencies of any
20 level or of any canton or any subregion are not able to verify and provide
21 certification for certain suggestions. Only the War Presidency can do
22 that, and then it had to be published in the Official Gazette. And never
23 in any Official Gazette of Bosnia and Herzegovina had it been published,
24 anything pertaining to such an organisation, be it of political or
25 military nature pertaining to the subregion we mentioned.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Richardson.
2 MS. RICHARDSON: A very lengthy answer has already been provided,
3 but this was clearly a leading question by Madam Vidovic. And I would ask
4 again that we refrain because these are very, very important matters and
5 the witness should be -- not be led.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Basically, I don't agree with you, Ms. Richardson.
7 The question -- I mean, it wasn't phrased in the best of ways but it
8 says: "Provided that the subregion was formed in a legal fashion," and
9 that is assuming that -- for argument's sake that it was. Would you be
10 familiar with that fact? So basically it's a question: What can you tell
11 us about the legality or otherwise or the existence or otherwise of the
12 subregion. I mean, it's --
13 MS. RICHARDSON: Well, precisely, Your Honour, but it seems that
14 the question suggested that it was not leading.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: It seems that we want to carry forward the
16 antagonism that we detected this morning. So let's proceed.
18 JUDGE ESER: I have a question just for clarification because I am
19 not clear about your answer. You told us that War Presidencies of any
20 level or any canton are not able to verify and provide certification for
21 certain suggestions. Only the War Presidency can do that and then it had
22 to be published in the Official Gazette.
23 Now, at first you were referring to War Presidencies of any level
24 or any canton, and then -- they cannot do anything. And then you spoke
25 about the War Presidency who can do that. But what is the difference
1 between both of these War Presidencies?
2 JUDGE AGIUS: It's not -- I think not you, the witness.
3 Yes, Mr. Redzic, you've heard what Judge Eser has asked you.
4 Could you please explain to us the difference between the two kinds of War
5 Presidencies that you seem to be referring to in your testimony. Which
6 are these two categories of War Presidencies?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We are not dealing with two
8 categories of War Presidencies. I believe I tried to explain any sort of
9 War Presidency, and I concretely speak of municipalities; they had to be
10 formed under war circumstances. Whether it was a political organisation
11 at the level of the subregion or of the district, because later on it
12 became the canton. No political body could be found by itself. Only the
13 Presidency of Bosnia and Herzegovina could do that. They were the only
14 body that was able to accept or not certain nominations and they could
15 provide suggestions as to the composition, and then it had to be confirmed
16 by the Official Gazette as the candidates being accepted by the Presidency
17 of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] If I may, I tried to react earlier.
19 The interpretation wasn't clear and the witness may correct me if I'm
20 wrong. He said that the War Presidencies at the lower level that he
21 specified, that -- those at the level of municipalities and subregions,
22 they can only -- they could only be formed by the Presidency of Bosnia and
23 Herzegovina. And I'm not certain as to whether the explanation was clear
24 the second time. That was page 27, line 20 -- [In English] "Could be
25 found by itself."
1 [Interpretation] I guess the bodies couldn't appoint themselves,
2 but rather they had to be appointed by the Presidency. So I have the
3 question for the witness.
4 Q. Am I correct in my interpretation? Or rather, I can reiterate the
5 question. Municipal War Presidencies or the subregional War Presidencies,
6 could they appoint themselves or it had to be done from a higher instance
7 by the Presidency of Bosnia and Herzegovina?
8 A. I may explain again. War Presidencies up to the level of the
9 subregion could not appoint themselves. They could offer suggestions as
10 to their composition, but the Presidency of Bosnia and Herzegovina could
11 verify and they could appoint members to War Presidencies and then it
12 could be confirmed within the Official Gazette, as in any other state
13 where we have the rule of law.
14 Q. Mr. Redzic, as the president of the Presidency in Vlasenica, did
15 you see or hear of such a decision of the Presidency of Bosnia and
17 A. No. As concerns my function within my competences it was to know
18 about that, and I never saw it in any Official Gazette pertaining to the
20 Q. Thank you. Just one other question or a couple. Working as a
21 member of the War Presidency, did you have any contact with the
22 authorities in Tuzla?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Did either you or your -- the people you worked with receive
25 documents from the 2nd Corps of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina, with
1 the seat in Tuzla, either you or your representatives or people that you
2 worked with?
3 A. It seems to me there are two questions here: Whether we
4 coordinated and participated in our activities with the authorities in
5 Tuzla. In Tuzla at that time there was the district that was in
6 existence, and it was a higher instance that united all the municipalities
7 in that region plus the War Presidencies in exile from the subregion. We
8 received all the documents from the district along the political lines as
9 concerns the War Presidency. As concerns the corps and coordinating with
10 the military authorities, in my testimony yesterday I mentioned that
11 within the Vlasenica War Presidency there was a Mr. Fejzic who was the
12 secretary for All People's Defence and anything pertaining to military
13 documentation and cooperation with military authorities, there was his
14 exclusive competence to deal with that.
15 Q. Yesterday you told us that in the same building where your office
16 was, there were also certain bodies of the town of Srebrenica. Do you
17 know whether they had any correspondence with the authorities in Tuzla?
18 A. Yes, we were in the same building. And logically speaking, we
19 were within the same hallway, one office to the other. As concerns
20 Vlasenica, it was a rather peculiar situations because there was a
21 Mr. Mustafic Mirsad there who was a representative, and he would receive
22 all documentation that would come in either pertaining to the military or
23 the civilian authorities.
24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I have no
25 further questions.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I thank you, Madam Vidovic.
2 Ms. Richardson.
3 So, Mr. Redzic, now Ms. Richardson will be starting her
4 cross-examination -- yes.
5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to apologise before my
6 colleague takes over. I have a correction for the transcript. It states
7 that Mr. Mirsad Mustafic coordinated in Vlasenica, but instead it was
9 JUDGE AGIUS: He has to -- the witness has to clear this up.
10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.
11 Q. Please, can you clarify?
12 JUDGE AGIUS: In my transcript here we have: "As concerns
13 Vlasenica it was a rather peculiar situation because there was a
14 Mr. Mirsad [Realtime transcript read in error "Musad"] Mustafic there" and
15 he was representative -- I have here. I'm reading from the transcript.
16 Now, was this correct or not? Was Mr. Mirsad Mustafic in Vlasenica or
17 where was he operating as -- functioning as a representative?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As I said, the coordinator for
19 Vlasenica was Mr. Fejzic and Mr. Mustafic was a commissioner for the
20 municipality of Srebrenica and he had nothing to do with Vlasenica.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, it's Mirsad yeah, yeah, it's not Musad, but I
22 had to read what I had there.
23 So, yes, Ms. Richardson.
24 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour.
25 Good morning, Mr. --
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Please, Ms. Richardson, you are aware of the various
2 points that we -- issues that we made clear to the Defence that we do not
3 require any further evidence upon. So please be advised immediately that
4 the moment you start touching on those issues unless you show cause why
5 they are necessary to inquire about, I will stop you. Please concentrate
6 on what is -- we said already is relevant for the remaining part of the
8 MR. WUBBEN: Your Honour.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
10 MR. WUBBEN: May I ask for a further clarification and guidance by
11 this Trial Chamber. I studied the decision on the first and second
12 Defence filing pursuant to scheduling order dated 4th of July, 2005, in
13 which it was addressed by Your Honours that --
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Should we have this in the presence of the witness?
15 MR. WUBBEN: We do not need to, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: So, usher, could you please escort the witness out
17 of the courtroom for a little while and if we conclude this before the
18 break we'll bring him in again. If not, we'll bring him in after the
20 We have to discuss something which is of no interest to you,
21 Mr. Redzic.
22 [Witness stands down]
23 Yes, Mr. Wubben.
24 MR. WUBBEN: Thank you, Your Honour. Those areas of Defence are
25 clarified by Your Honours and indeed already also addressed in advance on
1 Friday. I raised the question Friday that when it is an area of evidence,
2 an area as defined by Your Honours, that should not preclude -- that
3 should not stop the Prosecution for asking questions, otherwise defining
4 such an area would be rather something like a factual finding that stopped
5 the Prosecution for further asking questions to the witnesses. And
6 according to it, I noticed when I received this decision by your Trial
7 Chamber that the order clearly focussed on the Defence. So if I
8 quote: "Your Honours hereby order that during the Defence case, the
9 Defence shall not address the areas of evidence identified above except
10 during the testimony of Defence witnesses," and then those two named
12 So that's in alignment of my submission on Friday, and that's how
13 I make an interpretation --
14 JUDGE AGIUS: You are interpreting it correctly, Mr. Wubben. What
15 we are telling you is the following: That there are areas where we have
16 said we've heard enough. We don't need to hear more from the Defence. If
17 you want to re-open these areas, you must satisfy this Trial Chamber first
18 and foremost before you ask any questions what you intend to prove. And
19 we will allow or disallow the questions accordingly, provided we consider
20 that what you want to prove is relevant. Because now we have reached a
21 stage after -- that you have concluded your case that there are things
22 which are highly relevant, things which are highly irrelevant, and we will
23 not allow you to proceed on matters which may satisfy your prosecutorial
24 ego but which for us will create problems.
25 MR. WUBBEN: Your Honour, I hope I satisfy you that I don't form
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 such an ego. It's for me also the factual finding and you're right,
2 Your Honours, it should be relevant. So my clarification, as I take it,
3 is that the Defence shall not anyhow address such areas. And if the
4 Prosecution shall have a question in that respect, it must be relevant, as
5 all questions must be relevant.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, of course. If, for example, you think that
7 when we say we don't want to hear anymore evidence on the genocide in
8 Srebrenica in 1995, you think you want to re-open that chapter when we are
9 telling the Defence it will not be re-opened, you will have to seek our
10 permission before you do so.
11 MR. WUBBEN: Mm-hmm.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: This is -- and if you justify your request, we will
13 allow you to.
14 MR. WUBBEN: Okay.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: So that's the position.
16 MR. WUBBEN: That's a different approach --
17 JUDGE AGIUS: You are not in the -- you are not in the same
18 position as the Defence. The Defence are being told rebus sic stantibus.
19 As things are as present, we do not require any evidence from you on -- if
20 the scenario changes because either the witnesses they bring change the
21 scenario, which is as you both know is something that could happen very
22 easily in any case. Okay. The witness which you bring forward, thinking
23 that is going to testify in favour of your case suddenly stabs you in the
24 back, I mean voluntarily or involuntarily. But that happens. It happened
25 to you and it probably will happen to them. So at this point in time, you
1 have to make an assessment. If you want to ask certain questions, I will
2 hear the questions and I may come on you and say: I need to know why you
3 are asking the question -- this question --
4 MR. WUBBEN: That's clear, Your Honour. Thank you.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Because the situation as it is now is that there are
6 several areas which for reasons that we tried to explain I think have been
7 covered more than extensively. Some of these areas are highly relevant.
8 Some of these areas are highly irrelevant. That's -- okay --
9 MR. WUBBEN: It's clear. Thank you.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's bring the witness in and at least use the
11 first ten minutes.
12 In the meantime, registrar, please do mark 54 minutes at this
13 morning and -- yeah. We told you where we consider both of you and where
14 we will ultimately be focussing in this case. And it's very simple. I
15 mean, granted that there was military necessity to attack these villages,
16 was there military necessity to burn down these houses.
17 [The witness entered court]
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Who did it? Was Mr. Oric responsible under 7(3) or
19 under 7(1)? And only in the way of aiding and abetting. And as regards
20 the first and second, you know what the parameters that we have
21 established are. Believe me, Mr. Wubben and Mr. Jones and Madam Vidovic,
22 it will be a clinical exercise on our part. If you think we are going to
23 get lost in the labyrinth of other evidence that you would like to bring
24 forward, forget it; we are not going to be -- get lost.
25 Yes. Sorry. My apologies to you, Mr. Redzic, but we needed to
1 discuss something which is of no interest to you and which doesn't concern
2 you in any case. So Ms. Richardson will start and will finish in about 8
3 minutes -- I mean finish temporarily.
4 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour.
5 Cross-examined by Ms. Richardson:
6 Q. Good morning, Mr. Redzic.
7 A. Good morning.
8 Q. I would like to ask some questions about what you previously
9 testified to, and I'd like to begin by talking about -- by asking you
10 about the War Presidency that had been established in exile in Tuzla.
11 Now, you mentioned that you were part of a War Presidency in exile on
12 behalf of Vlasenica. Is that correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Richardson, just to direct you, this is
15 considered all relevant. So you can proceed along with all the questions
16 you like on this area and what he testified subsequently about.
17 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.
19 MS. RICHARDSON:
20 Q. And you -- could you tell us who were the other members of the War
21 Presidency in exile on behalf of Vlasenica?
22 A. I was the president of the War Presidency, and the other members
23 were Ilija Jasarevic, Ramiz Kadric, Alima Trvalovic [phoen], and Midhad
25 Q. And what position did you hold?
1 A. As I said, as the former president of the Executive Board I was
2 assigned the task of -- the function of the president of the War
3 Presidency in exile.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, one moment, Ms. Richardson. Sorry to interrupt
5 you but I see in the transcript all the names that he mentioned are
6 practically not shown here.
7 Let's start. I'll take this over for one minute. I'll get the
8 names one by one. You told us you were president of this War Presidency?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go through the list of other members of this
11 War Presidency. Next, after you. Say them one by one and slowly,
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Ilijaz Jasarevic; Midhat Fejzic;
14 Merima Telalovic; Ramiz Kadric. I can't recall the sixth member's name.
15 If I may have a second. Mustafa Imamovic.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.
17 Yes, Ms. Richardson.
18 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour.
19 Q. Now, the other members that you just named, what were their
20 positions? Did they have a particular title?
21 A. The role and purpose of that War Presidency was to receive the
22 refugees, the Muslims who came from those areas, to provide some
23 accommodation and to take care that the minimum levels of existence are
24 offered as well as that all the citizens from the area of Vlasenica are
25 registered so that it would be known in which municipalities they were at
1 the then-free territory of the Tuzla district. If I have to, I can offer
2 the names of all the municipalities and those were the competencies and
3 the tasks we performed in that area and nothing more than that.
4 Q. With respect to the establishment of this War Presidency in exile,
5 what laws were there to support this Presidency in exile?
6 A. There was a decree law in force. I believe it was P/92, tacitly
7 regulated our relations as to who could be a member, and it was a good
8 decree law and generally described the functions of the members,
9 irrespective of their ethnicity, whether someone was a Serb or a Catholic
10 or a Muslim. It was a good decree law, but when our people came to that
11 area because we were exiled, we were not there of our own accord. And
12 together with the representatives of the Vlasenica municipality, I tried
13 to organise that body so that we could provide the minimum of existence
14 for the people who found themselves there.
15 Q. When was it that you organised the body? Could you give us a
16 month, a date?
17 A. Yesterday I mentioned that it was sometime around the end of April
18 or the beginning of May. The proposal went to Sarajevo and the very
19 appointment of the War Presidency happened in September or October of 1992
20 by the Presidency of Bosnia and Herzegovina. And you can find that in the
21 Official Gazette.
22 Q. So in fact, you started working before the law came into -- was
23 actually published in the gazette?
24 A. Laws were in force previously as well, irrespective of this decree
25 law. If we refer to the laws of the former Yugoslavia and the
1 then-Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, it prescribed the members of War
2 Presidencies, except the title was different.
3 Q. Mr. Redzic, let me stop you there. My question was: Did you in
4 fact begin your work as the War Presidency prior to the law being
5 published in the gazette in, I believe, September and October?
6 A. The nature of things was such, irrespective of whether the body
7 was proclaimed or not. As the people who represented those people, we had
8 the task to provide for the minimum of existence for those people there,
9 as I stated.
10 Q. Thank you.
11 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I think --
12 JUDGE AGIUS: We have a break now. I need 30 minutes because I
13 need to meet with Judge Robinson and Judge Liu. If it takes me longer,
14 please bear with me. I'm not even going to have my coffee.
15 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.
16 --- On resuming at 11.11 a.m.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, registrar. Registrar, would you just add
18 another 12 minutes, please.
19 Mr. Di Fazio, are you going to address that matter now or do you
20 wish to, say, take a few minutes at the end?
21 MR. DI FAZIO: I rather assumed I would do it after Ms. Richardson
22 finished because I'm assured she's going to finish today.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. How much time do you require yourself?
24 MR. DI FAZIO: I can probably deal with it in about 10 minutes, or
1 JUDGE AGIUS: In a way which would call for reaction from the
2 other side?
3 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, my guess is there will be.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Because I need to calculate the time, obviously. I
5 mean, it's --
6 MR. DI FAZIO: I expect there would be some sort of reaction.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: All right, yes, Ms. Richardson, go ahead.
8 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you.
9 Q. Mr. Redzic, before the break you were testifying about the
10 establishment of the War Presidency for Vlasenica, and you stated that you
11 began your work of the War Presidency prior to the actual law being
12 published in the gazette. Is that correct?
13 A. As I've already said, we worked and it was our duty to do what was
14 the most necessary for the refugees. While we worked, the name was not
15 the War Presidency. We couldn't establish a War Presidency because the
16 Presidency of Bosnia and Herzegovina was the one that passed such
17 decisions. We just initiated the establishment of it with a list of
18 people who we thought should be members of the War Presidency. Our work
19 was just the work of the people from the state institutions who were
20 duty-bound to provide for the minimum conditions for the life and survival
21 of those displaced people and refugees.
22 Q. Well, the reason you established the War Presidency, or you
23 proposed it, and you got together -- this group was because it was
24 important because of the chaotic situation that yourself and the others
25 found themselves in, in Tuzla, having left Vlasenica. Is that correct?
1 A. Since the authorities in the district and the municipalities
2 around Tuzla had to have somebody who would be a legitimate representative
3 who would establish contact with humanitarian organisations and other
4 international organisations that existed in the area in that given time.
5 Q. And you went so far as to get the authorities in Tuzla to assign
6 you a building where you could operate and work?
7 A. Yes. That's what I have already stated.
8 Q. With respect to Srebrenica, you mentioned that Mirsad Mustafic was
9 a member of the War Presidency for Srebrenica. Is that correct?
10 A. I really wouldn't know whether he was a member of the War
11 Presidency or not. I know that he existed in Tuzla as a commissioner. If
12 there was a War Presidency in that area, then they were the ones who were
13 responsible to authorise somebody in Tuzla who would coordinate things
14 with the population because a number of people that had been displaced
15 from Srebrenica were in that area. So his role was to coordinate work
16 with the institutions of the political authorities, the military
17 authorities, and he also looked after the refugees from Srebrenica who had
18 arrived in Tuzla and in the surrounding areas in huge numbers.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's get -- one moment, Ms. Richardson. Let's get
20 this straight because I had understood all along that this person had
21 nothing to do with Vlasenica; that was cleared up already. And that he
22 was a representative for Srebrenica, but it wasn't clear in my mind that
23 he was based in Tuzla and not in Srebrenica itself.
24 So where was this Mirsad Mustafic residing?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This gentleman resided in Tuzla. In
1 my earlier testimony, I said that he covered the -- or he lived or he
2 worked in a shed that the municipality of Tuzla gave to us to use for our
4 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.
5 MS. RICHARDSON:
6 Q. And how did he receive information from Srebrenica, other than
7 from the refugees -- from -- excuse me. How did he receive -- I'll
8 rephrase the question --
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Because I don't think he said he received
10 information from the refugees himself.
11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honour.
12 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour -- I'll rephrase the question,
13 Your Honour.
14 Q. Mr. Mustafic, what was his role in Tuzla with respect to
16 A. His role was, by and large, similar to the role of other War
17 Presidencies or bodies that worked at the time. He looked after the
18 humanitarian aid, the accommodation of the refugees, and so on and so
19 forth. And as a person representing the municipality of Srebrenica, I
20 suppose that he received documents that were sent to him along the
21 political lines or that some military bodies sent to him. There was
22 nobody else from Srebrenica who was a legal representative of that
23 municipality and who would be in a position to receive all such documents.
24 Q. With respect to his position, what law authorised him to represent
25 Srebrenica of any -- if there was such a law?
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Vidovic, what's the problem?
2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the witness should be
3 first asked whether he knows that at all, and then --
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Knows what?
5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] -- the question should be asked
6 along the lines that Ms. Richardson put it.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Knows what?
8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Whether he knows what was the law
9 pursuant to which Mirsad was a commissioner, because Mirsad obviously did
10 not hold the same position as the witness and he should be asked whether
11 he knows that or not.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Objections are objections. Trying to testify
13 instead of the witness I will not allow. This is basically nitpicking. I
14 mean, it's -- when you say: "With respect to his position, what law
15 authorised him to represent Srebrenica, if any, if there was such a law,"
16 it's a very valid question. If the witness is in a position to answer it,
17 he will answer it. If he doesn't know about the law, if he doesn't know
18 whether there was such a law, then obviously he's going to know -- to
19 say "I don't know."
20 Yes, Ms. Richardson, I will repeat the question for you.
21 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Redzic, the question that you need to answer is
23 the following, and we are always referring to that person you mentioned
24 before, Mirsad: With respect to his position that you described to us,
25 what law authorised him to represent Srebrenica, if any, if there was such
1 a law? So if you know of the existence of such a law, please tell us; if
2 you don't know, please tell us.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really wouldn't know. If there
4 had existed such a law at the time, I'm sure I would know. I really don't
5 know whether it was part of any law that this body could be established or
6 that somebody could be authorised. I really don't know through what
7 channels he received this position, whether through the War Presidency,
8 the municipality of Srebrenica, or some state institutions or some
9 district institutions. I really wouldn't be able to tell you because I
10 never saw such a piece of paper. I was not interested in that, after all.
11 If I had asked him what was the basis of his position, maybe he would have
12 not liked it. It was the duty of every citizen, of every intellectual,
13 from every municipality, from these parts and across Bosnia and
14 Herzegovina to take a position and to help the refugees who had been
15 expelled from their homes, whose families had been killed, and they had to
16 provide these people and provide at least the minimum conditions for the
17 survival of these retched people who had been through a lot.
18 MS. RICHARDSON:
19 Q. And so, as you've stated, that it was the responsibility of
20 individuals, this responsibility was carried out whether any law existed
21 or not. Isn't that so?
22 A. It was not a responsibility. It was a duty of every citizen, of
23 every intellectual, to help the people who had been through so much, as
24 I've already said.
25 Q. Thank you --
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Let me rephrase it myself and then tell me whether
2 this reflects what you want to tell us, because otherwise we will
3 continue. Basically you are telling us that the situation was such that
4 every -- those who were in the position to contribute felt that they had a
5 moral obligation to do so and did not waste time in trying to see whether
6 there was any legal obligation or laws which would regulate the way in
7 which they would contribute. Would this reflect what you have testified?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this is the --
9 precisely what I said. The role and the task of every individual, of
10 every intellectual, is not to look at the laws but to help people;
11 subsequently, everything can be legalised. Everything can be put in a
12 certain legal framework.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I think it's clear enough now.
14 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour.
15 Q. And as you just stated that everything can be legalised and, of
16 course, I imagine you mean later on it can be legalised once the work
17 began, isn't that true for the subregion that was established?
18 A. In my testimony, I have said that there may be proposals from the
19 field and the body in the subregion has never been made part of any law of
20 Bosnia and Herzegovina or anything that happened after the Dayton Accords
21 once the Federation and the Republika Srpska were established. There is
22 no paper trail of that sort. The initiatives could come from the local
23 levels, from the subregional or cantonal levels, but it was well-known who
24 was at the top and nobody could work on their own, independently. Nobody
25 could appoint themselves to be minister. There was a procedure, there
1 were elections, there were post-elections results, and based on those a
2 parliament is formed, a government, and so on and so forth. The
3 initiatives can start from the grass roots, but it was a well-known fact
4 how things were legalised, how they were regulated at the end of the day.
5 Q. But my question was with respect to the subregion. You stated
6 that individuals felt obligated to act, even if they were not authorised
7 by the law at the time. And if I'm mischaracterising your testimony,
8 please do tell me. With respect to the subregion, individuals who
9 organised themselves and decided to act on behalf of the subregion, could
10 they do that, in light of what you've already testified?
11 A. There may well have been an initiative. As far as the subregion
12 is concerned, not for a single moment did it become operational. I told
13 you what the key people, the people who had been proposed to represent the
14 subregion told me. It really could not exist for a number of reasons, and
15 if I need to repeat that, I will. It -- such a body could not exist
16 within the -- that time frame. This subregion was supposed to be
17 established in November when Cerska and Konjevic Polje had already been
18 under attack by the aggressor. There was a lot of pressure from the enemy
19 forces from all sides. Cerska and Konjevic Polje had already been cut off
20 from Srebrenica; therefore, there was not even minimum condition in place
21 for that. Let me not even start about the humanitarian situation, about
22 people dying of hunger, children starving, elderly people not having
23 medicines to help them and so on and so forth.
24 Q. Mr. Redzic, were you privy to all of the decisions that came out
25 of Srebrenica, decisions made either by the War Presidency or the
1 Territorial Staff of Srebrenica? Did you see these decisions --
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Will you locate it in a time frame, please?
3 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, Your Honour, I will.
4 Q. Let me rephrase the question. When did you begin receiving
5 information about the subregion?
6 A. I've already said that. The moment when free territories fell,
7 like Cerska and Konjevic Polje, and when individuals like Ferat Hodzic and
8 a large group of soldiers who came with him came. And only when I spoke
9 with Ferat and others who arrived from the area, I learned that there
10 really was an initiative of that sort.
11 Your Honour, I am being asked very complex questions and in my
12 answers I have to go to great lengths in order to explain things. I can't
13 be brief, because if I'm brief then the Chamber will not get a real
14 insight into what really went on in the area that we're talking about.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: When we think that you are overdoing it or that you
16 are giving us information that we don't require, we will stop you.
17 Otherwise, go ahead unless -- unless we stop you. Thank you.
18 Yes, Ms. Richardson.
19 MS. RICHARDSON:
20 Q. And so you did not receive information about this region until
21 Cerska fell, which I believe you testified was about February of 1993. Is
22 that correct?
23 A. Yes, when these places fell and when the individuals from these
24 places came, I was informed about those attempts, about the cries from
25 people for help.
1 Q. So you didn't receive any information about the subregion in 1992?
2 I believe you can answer that with a yes or no.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: And after his arrival in Tuzla.
4 MS. RICHARDSON: And -- of course. Thank you, Your Honour.
5 Q. And after your arrival in Tuzla, I believe, in April.
6 A. In 1992, is that what you have in mind?
7 Q. Well, I'll rephrase the question, Mr. Redzic. You arrived in
8 Tuzla in April of 1992. Is that correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. So from April of 1992 to February of 1993, when Cerska fell, you
11 received no information about the subregion that had been established?
12 A. Absolutely no. You know what the siege looked like. Even the
13 international community could not enter to secure the minimum conditions
14 for the people there to survive. How could I have known? There were
15 individuals who could come through, but I didn't know about it. I knew
16 some things about Vlasenica and its territory, but concerning the things
17 prior to -- to the fall of Cerska, which was a relatively short interval,
18 and when other people came, as I said, this is when I learned about some
19 of their attempts and so on and so forth.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: I think that's clear enough.
21 MS. RICHARDSON:
22 Q. Now, with respect to Mr. Mustafic, when did he arrive in Tuzla?
23 A. I can't say exactly. I don't know the date, but he participated
24 in the work and he was in the same locality where people from Vlasenica,
25 Srebrenica, Zvornik. He was also there, but we shouldn't mention
1 Mr. Ibranic only -- sorry, Mr. Mustafic. There were other people from
2 Srebrenica who were trying to do something to help the people.
3 Q. What about the -- what are the names of the other people?
4 A. For example, the general manager of the utility company from
5 Srebrenica, Mujo Muratovic, if I'm not mistaken. Then Adip Dzozic who
6 were at the disposal to help the people since he was an intellectual with
7 a high degree of education and he offered his services to provide the
8 minimum conditions for those people, to help in that.
9 Q. Getting back to Mr. Mustafic, you said you can't remember when he
10 came. Could you narrow it down to the time of year. Was it the
11 summertime? Was it in the fall that he came to Tuzla? And was it in
13 A. I really can't remember the period when he came, but I previously
14 mentioned other people who also worked there. And I used to see this
15 gentleman on occasion, but I can't put it in the exact time context,
16 whether that was the end of April or beginning of May.
17 Q. And you can't say if it was 1992 or 1993?
18 A. I don't believe it was 1993. It was already very late. I believe
19 it was in 1992.
20 Q. All right. And you testified that he received reports from Tuzla.
21 Could you tell us what types of reports -- sorry, from Srebrenica, excuse
22 me. Could you tell us what types of reports he received?
23 A. As I said earlier, he received no information from Srebrenica.
24 You probably heard me say that earlier. He received written information
25 along the political lines from the institutions of the republic, the
1 canton, and the district, and partially from the military domain. He
2 received absolutely no information from Srebrenica itself because there
3 was no open channel in existence. I don't know of any single document
4 that he may have received from Srebrenica.
5 Q. So any information he received from Srebrenica about Srebrenica --
6 I'll rephrase the question.
7 Was he -- did the information he received, was that about the
8 conditions in Srebrenica?
9 A. I really don't know. I do know that he received some documents,
10 but as to what those documents were, what was in them, I really can't say.
11 Q. And you mentioned that the information were partially from the
12 military domain. What military domain are you referring to?
13 A. As I stated a minute ago, information came along the political
14 lines and I would see the people who would bring them in and then I --
15 by -- because of that I knew that it came from the military because they
16 were brought by couriers who wore uniforms from the corps, from the
17 military structures. They would bring papers, but I can't say anything as
18 to their content because I'm not familiar with that.
19 Q. And where you -- you testified that couriers were -- would come
20 and they wore uniforms from the corps. What area did they come from, do
21 you know, with the couriers? Where did they originate? Was it from
22 Sarajevo or Tuzla or Srebrenica?
23 A. There was a hierarchy. It would be illogical for it to come from
24 Srebrenica. Those people came from the headquarters of the corps and the
25 distance to our offices was 1 kilometre. They came from there, from the
1 building of the corps to our building where the refugee population that
2 was trying to do something for the general -- more general population
4 Q. And the information that he received from the corps, did you --
5 did he discuss this with you?
6 A. No. As for the military issues, I am quite ignorant about that.
7 I'm not an officer. I had a person who was tasked with coordinating the
8 military matters. I had other tasks. I had to find accommodation. I
9 tried to provide the minimum conditions that I mentioned, so I never dealt
10 with that and I was not even interested in what it was that Mr. Mustafic
11 would receive.
12 Q. Were you familiar with members of the War Presidency of
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's start with whether he was aware that there was
15 a War Presidency because the composition changed, as you know, and whether
16 he was aware of the existence. And if he was, when did he become aware of
17 it --
18 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, Your Honour --
19 JUDGE AGIUS: -- to start with --
20 MS. RICHARDSON: And I'll take it in stages and steps --
21 JUDGE AGIUS: And then I think it's better.
22 MS. RICHARDSON:
23 Q. Mr. Redzic, were you aware that Srebrenica in May -- I'll
25 Were you aware that Srebrenica had established a War Presidency
1 sometime after May of 1992?
2 A. I can't talk about that issue, one of the reasons being that there
3 was complete paralysis and the siege, inability to communicate concerning
4 Sarajevo and the Official Gazettes. They would often be published a year
5 later in relation to the date they were put -- that certain laws were put
6 into force. Some Official Gazettes I saw a full year later, that includes
7 Srebrenica and other municipalities in particular. So I can't say much
8 about that time and about the members themselves. I'm not familiar with
10 JUDGE AGIUS: That's because you limited your question to May or
11 just after May in 1992. That's why I suggested in the first place it
12 should be put in pieces.
13 First question: Were you aware at -- during this time that you
14 were in Tuzla of the existence of a War Presidency in Srebrenica? Answer
15 yes or no.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't say yes or no. I really
17 don't know about it because that territory was cut off and they had no
18 open channels to communicate. Perhaps at the very beginning when the
19 siege was relatively incomplete, but later on I wasn't particularly
20 interested in the delay with the Official Gazettes. But as concerns this
21 month of May or the end of April, I really don't know.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Forget the gazette, forgot whether -- I'm not asking
23 you whether you became aware at any time of a proclamation, official
24 proclamation published in the government gazette or not, published in the
25 government gazette, that set up the War Presidency in Srebrenica. I'm
1 asking you a very simple question: During your stay in Tuzla or after
2 your arrival in Tuzla, did you at any time become aware that a War
3 Presidency had been set up, in other words existed, in Srebrenica? Not
4 whether it had been legally set up, whether it had been published. Did
5 you hear of a War Presidency in Srebrenica at any time?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] By the sheer nature of things,
7 whether it was legal or not, I would presume that people there tried to do
8 something. And when discussing it with people on the street, I learned
9 about a War Presidency and it only seemed logical.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.
11 So then I'm giving him back to you. I will not ask him any
12 further questions on this, obviously, but I just wanted to try and get
13 this out.
14 MS. RICHARDSON: I do appreciate that, Your Honour. Thank you.
15 Q. Mr. Redzic, I'd like to ask you a series of questions about your
16 meetings that you testified to on examination-in-chief, the meetings that
17 you had at the regional level with the various municipalities including
18 Srebrenica and Bratunac.
19 Now, you testified that you had meetings with Ibran Mustafic.
20 Would that be correct?
21 A. Yes. Not only with him but with all the representatives of the
22 aforementioned five municipalities.
23 Q. And you -- with respect to Srebrenica, those are -- that is where
24 my questions will be limited to for this time. You also met with Besim
1 A. Besim Ibisevic.
2 Q. Ibisevic, excuse me. Thank you. And he also represented
3 Srebrenica, both of them?
4 A. As I stated yesterday, the meetings included five municipalities
5 and were attended by the presidents of the Executive Boards of the
6 municipalities and of the SDA of those municipalities.
7 Q. And the goal of the meeting --
8 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
9 MS. RICHARDSON:
10 Q. The goal of the meetings that you held were to determine exactly
11 what was occurring politically as well as in the sense of security in the
13 A. Yes, absolutely. At that moment we had several enemies beginning
14 with the League of Communists and the army and the Serb people who were
15 armed. Our role was to gather the correct information as to what was
16 happening in the territory of the subregion and at the level of the entire
17 state of Bosnia and Herzegovina, as I mentioned yesterday. And meetings
18 often covered that as well. So the purpose of the meetings was to deal
19 not only with Srebrenica but as well as with Bratunac, Zvornik, Vlasenica,
20 a part of Sekovici because it was almost 100 per cent Serb territory with
21 Serb population. But the role was to gather information from all those
22 territories and one of the key roles was to attempt to reinstate peace so
23 as not to see Bosnia and Herzegovina go up in flames so that the things
24 that did happen and the things that we are sitting here because of
25 wouldn't take place.
1 Q. And you relied on the representatives from the municipalities for
2 information about their particular municipalities. Isn't that correct?
3 A. Yes. Not only myself but others relied on that information and I,
4 myself, submitted information pertaining to Vlasenica. But as to how I
5 gathered that, it was dictated by logic. I couldn't be present in every
6 square metre of the Vlasenica territory; it had over 507 square
7 kilometres. But we had people in the field who were tasked with
8 monitoring the situation and the events, movements of various groups,
9 including the military and other. And then they would forward that
10 information to us. And within a municipal or a subregional body, we would
11 discuss the issues. We would try to find a way out. We tried to calm the
12 situation and we kept on saying that no -- no provocation should be done
13 on part of the Muslims because that would only bring about retaliation by
14 the other party.
15 Q. Did you also discuss in this meeting of the various
16 representatives what the representatives were doing in their municipality
17 in terms of meeting with the other side, meaning the Serbs, and the SDS,
18 as they were themselves trying to resolve the situation, the security
19 situation, in their municipality?
20 A. Absolutely. That was no secret. The same thing that was done in
21 my municipality was done in the neighbouring municipalities. We tried,
22 and the Serbs were already on their way in organising military and
23 political institutions, so the military came out of their barracks and a
24 part of it returned from Slovenia and Croatia. They were not in the
25 barracks but out in the field and on the roads. And we couldn't expect
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 anything but to receive Serb demands and to try to meet them to avoid the
2 war, murders, and destruction that took place. So it is true. I in my
3 municipality, as well as representatives from other municipalities, we did
4 everything to bring about peace, so as not to see the Muslim people
5 destroyed because by that time the tanks were already out and they started
7 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, at this time I would like to have
8 the witness shown Prosecution's Exhibit 690, but I would like to state, we
9 have copies of the B/C/S -- of the B/C/S version of the -- of this exhibit
10 and the reason that we're submitting new copies is because we realised
11 that the English translations of excerpts of the book did not correspond
12 to the book itself. In other words, there were pages lacking in the
13 B/C/S. So what we would end up with, as reviewed the material, was more
14 English translation than there was of B/C/S translation. So we propose
15 that we submit copies of the entire book so that the witness will be able
16 to adequately be able to refer and read from it. And in addition, we
17 should state that there are two ERN numbers. The old ERN number is
18 01000695. And then there's a new ERN number to the top right-hand corner
19 which is 02930346, and we submit this exhibit be given a new number
20 because it's being submitted in its complete form now and we have another
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's clear a few things in my mind first before we
23 decide what to do. There was Exhibit P690 you said?
24 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: 690 --
1 MS. RICHARDSON: I'm sorry, D690. I apologise.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: D690.
3 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: This is a Defence exhibit?
5 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, Your Honour, it is.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: So my first question to you is the following. I
7 hope you're not telling us: We are trying to substitute D690 with this?
8 MS. RICHARDSON: Absolutely not, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Absolutely not. And that's the only way of
10 presenting it. So if you are not trying to substitute one document with
11 another, which document are you going to make use of for the purposes of
12 your cross-examination, D690 or this?
13 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, we are making use of both.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Why are you use of both if D690 is supposed to be
15 part of this?
16 MS. RICHARDSON: Well, here's why: The English translation of
17 D690 is what I will be -- what we all, the English speakers anyway, will
18 be referring to, can read from. But the witness will be using the new
19 exhibit only because it's complete. The entire B/C/S page is there. And
20 so what I don't want is for him to not have the entire page or if there's
21 anything lacking in -- that we've translated in English, that he can't see
22 from the old exhibit. That's the only reason.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: But what is in 690 is in here as well, isn't it?
24 MS. RICHARDSON: Not in -- not in completion. The B/C/S part of
25 it is not completed.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: What do you mean the B/C/S part is not completed?
2 MS. RICHARDSON: The B/C/S excerpts are not complete. In other
3 words, we have English. We've matched the English to the B/C/S. And we
4 realise that there's an additional page that needed -- that should have
5 been added.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: But why not use this then? I mean, it's --
7 MS. RICHARDSON: Well, Your Honour, we can use this --
8 JUDGE AGIUS: You can make a submission that there is a
9 discrepancy between this and 690 consisting in this or in that, and that
10 will be delved not in the presence of the accused -- of the witness, and
11 you can use this. If this is complete and the other one is incomplete,
12 you don't make use of D690 which is incomplete, you make use of this.
13 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, we can make use of that.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Then let's give it a number to start with.
15 And this will be -- yes, Ms. Vidovic. Don't complicate things any further
16 for me.
17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] No, I won't. I just wanted to have
18 it on the record that we did receive the translation from the Prosecution.
19 And if something is missing or incomplete, then it wasn't done by the
21 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.
22 So it wasn't being alleged that -- I didn't read Ms. Richardson
23 that you had changed something. I didn't take it that way. I mean, I
24 understood all the way that this was something they have discovered in --
25 so this will be -- is there any objection on your part of having this
1 tendered now? None.
2 So this will be Prosecution Exhibit -- a new Prosecution Exhibit
3 P563. P563. P563. All right.
4 Now, this is all -- I was going to say in Dutch. This is all --
5 because we have the expression "this is all Dutch." There is an
6 expression in English which goes: "This is Dutch to me," so I don't
7 understand it. Actually, this is in B/C/S, which I equally don't
8 understand. So where is the English translation --
9 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, that's why we're going back to what
10 I had originally proposed. We have not translated the entire book; we
11 only translated excerpts. Those translations are found in the Defence
12 exhibit 690. So what I propose is that the witness is -- well, he has the
13 new exhibit. But what we will have to --
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's proceed --
15 MS. RICHARDSON: We will have to read from the English version.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: We will have interpretation in any case. So let's
18 MS. RICHARDSON: All right. Thank you.
19 Q. Mr. Redzic, I would like you to take a look at page 137 of this
20 document, and that's in the B/C/S.
21 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, and I will just for the record, just
22 indicate that I am reading from Defence Exhibit 690. I am on page 3.
23 Your Honour, I believe that the usher can place the English on the --
24 excuse me, pardon me.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, to help us, as an aid, we can have on Sanction
1 the alleged corresponding page in English from D690.
2 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, unfortunately we do not have it in
3 Sanction. So perhaps the usher can assist us further by putting the
4 English on the ELMO.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. If you have that handy, please, registrar.
6 You don't have 690, D690 here?
7 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Page 3 of the English part of D690.
9 Did I read you well, Ms. Richardson? Did you say page 3?
10 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, Your Honour, I did. Page 3.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Let's put it on the ELMO. And please
12 tell the witness to ignore it. Yes. Problem solved.
13 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes. Okay. Thank you, Your Honour. I
14 appreciate your patience.
15 Q. Mr. Redzic, as you look at page 137 I'd like to refer you on the
16 English version. Anyway, it's the third paragraph. Can you find the
17 paragraph that starts with: "The representatives of the two national
19 And I will read from this and you can follow along, if you've --
20 if you've located it.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Wouldn't it be easier -- Ms. Richardson.
22 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: If the witness is referred to page 137, we have a --
24 page 137 put on the ELMO so that the interpreters can translate from what
25 they see and we'll move ahead. Because otherwise it's becoming more
2 MS. RICHARDSON: That's fine, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: I think it's the easiest way out.
4 Don't you agree, Mr. Jones, Madam Vidovic. I mean, I want your
5 comfort on this.
6 MR. JONES: Yes.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Have mine. Let's get it over and ...
8 MS. RICHARDSON:
9 Q. "The representatives" --
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Which paragraph on that page?
11 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I'm reading the -- the third
13 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.
14 MS. RICHARDSON: And I will start at the beginning of this
16 Q. It states: "The representatives of two national parties from
17 Srebrenica met on 21st September, 1991, with the goal of settle the
18 large" --
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Usher, please, it's -- you need to push it -- all
20 right. Stop, stop, stop, stop, stop. Further down. No, no, no. There.
21 No. Further down -- further down. That's further up. Okay. So that's
22 the first, that's the second, the third, it's the fourth one that we need
23 to see, the fourth paragraph from the top. All right. Stop there.
24 Is that correct, Madam Vidovic?
25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. It comforts me because my knowledge of
2 your language is very limited.
3 So, Ms. Richardson.
4 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: The witness has it in front of his eyes now.
6 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you.
7 Q. Again I will start from the beginning.
8 "The representatives of two national parties from Srebrenica met
9 on 21st September, 1991, with the goal of settling the large number of
10 inter-ethnic problems. Besim Ibisevic, Ibran Mustafic, Hamed Efendic, and
11 Hamed Salihovic (a.k.a. Sado) represented the SDA party at the meeting.
12 Goran Zekic, Miodrag Jokic (a.k.a. Zmigo), and Milenko Canic made up the
13 SDS delegation. The Serbian representatives put the following issues on
14 the agenda: The allocation of lots for the construction of privately
15 owned homes in the town; the dismissal of Serbian employees from some
16 Srebrenica enterprises; the appointment of directors of elementary school,
17 the removal of military files from the municipal building, and failure to
18 send call-up papers to Serbian recruits for regular military service," and
19 I will just end there for now.
20 Mr. Redzic, based on the information that you received from
21 Mr. Ibisevic and Mr. Mustafic, is this consistent with what they told you
22 they were doing in Srebrenica? In other words, meeting with members of
23 the SDS trying to come to agreements about the difficulties they were
25 A. The principle is the same as in the municipality of Vlasenica.
1 The Serbian representatives of the SDS and the municipal institutions from
2 the same party sought any possible way to find a cause and reason to use
3 and to carry out their activities. What is mentioned here is really ugly,
4 and that is that the Serbs have been sacked from some companies that
5 directors were being appointed. Yes, after the elections, after the
6 authorities were established according to the votes that they won, they
7 had to distribute positions amongst themselves; that is nothing new under
8 the sun. They were multi-party elections and it is only logical that the
9 parties could appoint people to the positions according to their cut in
10 power. The mobilisation is also mentioned here, and that is no secret.
11 I've already spoken about that. It was our task and role to prevent the
12 mobilisation of Bosnians and Herzegovinians irrespective of their
13 religion, colour of the skin, or race. Bosnia-Herzegovina and its leaders
14 did not allow any Bosnian or Herzegovinian to go to the front lines in
15 Croatia and to kill the Catholics or any other peoples there. Really,
16 everything like that happened in Vlasenica to a somewhat smaller extent
17 because I was somewhat wiser. However, I did mention the blockades, the
18 ban on the exploitations of forests, and I don't even want to mention the
19 mobilisation. I told the Serbs: You Serbs can mobilise as much as you
20 want but this is illegal. I'm not sending my people to wage wars outside
21 my country.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: If you want to put any further question on this,
23 please go ahead.
24 MS. RICHARDSON: No, Your Honour, I just didn't want to interrupt.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: I still don't see clear where you were heading and
1 where he was heading.
2 MS. RICHARDSON: But I just wanted to establish -- is -- that this
3 was information that was --
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Can I have my page 137 back, please, because I
5 wouldn't like to have one page missing from this very important book.
6 Thank you.
7 MS. RICHARDSON:
8 Q. Now, Mr. Redzic --
9 THE INTERPRETER: Note of the interpreter, note of the interpreter
10 for the Presiding Judge, there's a difference in dates between the
11 original and the English translation. In the English it said 21st of
12 September and it's 24th of September in the original.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I see. I see. I thank you for bringing that
15 All right, in the original it's definitely 24th of September,
16 1991, definitely.
17 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Just for the record. I mean -- yes.
19 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank the interpreter for highlighting this to us.
21 Thank you.
22 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour.
23 Q. Now, Mr. Redzic, did it also come to your attention from Mr. --
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Ibisevic --
25 MS. RICHARDSON:
1 Q. -- Ibisevic that they had established in Srebrenica a National
2 Defence Council?
3 A. Yes, absolutely. That was provided for by law. It was provided
4 for who would be members of the Council for National Defence, and this was
5 appropriate to the situation when we were attacked by an outside
6 aggressor. The situation, however, was different at the time. In other
7 words, the constitution and the laws regulated exactly who could be
8 members of the Council for National Defence.
9 Q. And this National Defence Council consisted of members of the SDA
10 as well as members of the SDS?
11 JUDGE AGIUS: To your knowledge.
12 MS. RICHARDSON:
13 Q. To your knowledge?
14 A. Of course, absolutely. It was the president of the Municipal
15 Assembly, the president of the Executive Board, the commander of the
16 Territorial Defence, the chief of police, and members of the clubs of --
17 members of parliament representing those parties that made up the
18 authorities at that level.
19 Q. I don't want to dwell on this point, but I'd like you to turn to
20 page 38 --
21 MS. RICHARDSON: And if we could have the usher's -- I'm sorry
22 this is in the English version. It's page 38. In the B/C/S it's page 191
23 to 192.
24 Q. Now, Mr. Redzic, I'd just like you to quickly glance over the
25 portion of this document that lists -- that states this is a number of
1 individuals, it is the National Defence Council, and it has the first name
2 which says Besim Ibisevic --
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Last paragraph, usher, please. Last paragraph.
4 MS. RICHARDSON:
5 Q. And it lists individuals 1 through 9. Do you see that? It's ERN
6 number 02930557 and it goes over to 558, and that's the B/C/S.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: And then we see the top. Yeah. Okay. Is there a
8 way -- I don't know, Madam Usher. Is there a way of combining the two
9 documents together on one page, sort of the last part of page 191 with the
10 top part of page 192? Yeah, it's okay. Leave it as it is. It's easier.
11 Leave it as it is.
12 MS. RICHARDSON:
13 Q. Now, do you see there are a list of nine individuals and it starts
14 with the first name Besim Ibisevic, and it also lists Ibran Mustafic which
15 is number 8 on this list. As you glance at this, does this confirm what
16 you know of? Can you -- I'm not sure if the witness can hear me.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Usher, please -- can you -- are you receiving
18 interpretation? Mr. Redzic are you receiving interpretation? Did you
19 hear the question that Ms. Richardson was putting to you?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. Can that please be repeated.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Exactly.
22 So you need to repeat that -- I'm sorry, Ms. Richardson --
23 MS. RICHARDSON: No, Your Honour, that's fine.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: -- these things happen.
25 MS. RICHARDSON:
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Q. This portion of the document describes the National Defence
2 Council, it lists nine members of the council, one of whom is Besim
3 Ibisevic, number 8 is Ibran Mustafic, and there is also Goran Zekic,
4 chairman of the Srebrenica SDS, and he is number 4. Does this list
5 confirm what you know of the various National Defence Council, in that
6 they were made up of members of the SDA as well as the SDS and of both
7 ethnic -- both ethnicities?
8 A. If you were listening to me, I said that the National Defence
9 Council is provided for as a body and I told you who such a council was
10 made up of. The president of the municipality, the president of the
11 Executive Board, the chief of police, and representatives of all the
12 parties as well as the head of the Territorial Defence. This was provided
13 for by the law. This was done while there was still peace and where --
14 when there was a rule of law. I'm mentioning this because this stems from
15 the laws of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina which were in effect
16 then and which would continue to be in effect in the Federation and in the
17 part where the political authorities and the government of Bosnia and
18 Herzegovina were in power. You didn't say anything different to what I
19 explained to you about the make-up of the National Defence Council.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Redzic, please don't argue with counsel.
21 Counsel will put questions to you and you try to answer the questions.
22 And the question basically I think you have derailed it a little bit.
23 The question was a very simple was; it was inviting you to look at
24 this list and confirm to Ms. Richardson whether this corresponded to what
25 you knew at the time. This is basically it.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, absolutely. There was a rule
2 of law, laws were in place.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
4 Let's move, Ms. Richardson.
5 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: After all Besim Ibisevic, who was the president of
7 the municipality, is writing this.
8 MS. RICHARDSON: Indeed, Your Honour.
9 Q. Now, Mr. Redzic, did it come to your attention from the
10 representatives of Srebrenica, Mr. Ibisevic and Mr. Mustafic, that in fact
11 there were individuals in Srebrenica who had weapons?
12 A. I don't know what side you are referring to. If you're referring
13 to the Serbian side, then the question is pointless. At that moment, the
14 Serbian people on the 11th of April was armed to the tooth. They had
15 weapons located around Srebrenica, Vlasenica, Bratunac, across the
16 subregion and across Bosnia and Herzegovina.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I think we need -- because otherwise we
18 will again deviate into areas that we don't want to hear about.
19 Your question was: "Now, Mr. Redzic, did it come to your
20 attention from the representatives of Srebrenica, Ibisevic and Mustafic,
21 that in fact there were individuals in Srebrenica who had weapons?"
22 Are you referring to Srebrenica the town? Are you referring to
23 Srebrenica, the area? And which individuals are you referring to?
24 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I can --
25 JUDGE AGIUS: The Muslims or the Serbs. Because if it's the
1 Serbs, I don't think we need to hear about that.
2 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, in fact, my question -- I was
3 actually going to qualify my question.
4 Q. I was talking -- excuse me, Mr. Redzic, for not being clear. I
5 was talking about Muslims having weapons in Srebrenica, and when I
6 say "Srebrenica," the town and the surrounding villages, the municipality
7 of Srebrenica.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Did you have information as to whether they were
9 armed or not? This is the whole question, whether the Muslim population
10 were armed or not, from these two persons.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] According to our information, the
12 Muslim people had hunting rifles that had been obtained legally, and there
13 were also some individuals who had purchased weapons. And I can say this
14 openly, that these weapons were purchased from the Serbs. We're talking
15 about a small number of weapons that had been purchased by the Bosniaks,
16 who did not have the money to purchase weapons in huge numbers. And there
17 was nowhere from weapons to be obtained from.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Who did you obtain this information from? Did you
19 obtain this information from these two persons, from Ibisevic and the
20 other person, Mustafic?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At our meetings we analysed the
22 situation, we discussed such cases. There were people who did not
23 understand what the war was and what force we were facing. In Vlasenica
24 we had information only of --
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Forget Vlasenica --
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- the weapons that had been issued,
2 the hunting rifles and such weapons.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Redzic, we're talking of Srebrenica and we
4 wouldn't like to hear any more about the situation in Vlasenica. If it is
5 true, as you told us it is earlier on, that there was no way of receiving
6 information directly from Srebrenica because of the circumstances
7 obtaining there at the time. Where were you getting and how were you
8 getting this information on how and to what extent the Muslims were armed
9 in Srebrenica town itself and in the -- in its environs, surrounding
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know what period you're
12 referring to. If you're referring to this late period around the 11th of
13 April and later, I really did not have any information at the time because
14 at the beginning of April we had our last contact with the people who were
15 in those municipalities. In the period leading up to that period, we used
16 to meet and every president of the Executive Board and the president of
17 the Municipal Assembly had to be privy to the situation in their
18 respective areas, how many inhabitants, how many cows, meadows, and so on
19 and so forth. And it was only logical that we had information from our
20 respective MUPs where they were Serbs, just like in Vlasenica. The chief
21 of the MUP submitted to us, to the body that you have just mentioned,
22 which consisted of the Serbs and the Muslims alike, and this information
23 contained a number of rifles that were in legal possession of the
24 inhabitants --
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Which April are you talking about? April 1992 or
1 April 1993?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 1992.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.
4 Yes, Ms. Richardson.
5 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour.
6 Q. Did you learn, Mr. Redzic, that individuals in Srebrenica had been
7 smuggling weapons and selling them -- smuggling weapons into Srebrenica
8 and had been selling them?
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Jones.
10 MR. JONES: Yes, Your Honour. Sorry, usually of course it would
11 be my colleague who would raise an objection. But there are two points,
12 really, finding, or however one wants to describe it, number 10, was that
13 the Bosnian Muslim capacity in Srebrenica was largely dependent on weapons
14 that could be captured from the Bosnian Serb forces. I'd like to have --
15 the Prosecution is seeking to challenge that finding because that has all
16 kinds of implications, firstly. And secondly, generally, I don't see the
17 relevance otherwise of this line of inquiry.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. What are you trying to prove, Ms. Richardson?
19 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour --
20 JUDGE AGIUS: That the Muslims were militarily superior to the
21 Serbs --
22 MS. RICHARDSON: No, absolutely not, Your Honour.
23 In fact, I'm just doing a cross-examination in relation to the
24 examination that was conducted whereby it was stated that the Muslims had
25 no weapons and I'm just seeking to establish whether in fact this was in
1 fact true, not that they were superior. But I think it is relevant that
2 there were weapons, not that they were superior.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Jones.
4 MR. JONES: The seniority is finding number 9. Finding number 10
5 is that Bosnian Muslim military capacity was largely dependent on weapons
6 that could be captured from Bosnian Serb forces. That's a --
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Wubben.
8 MR. WUBBEN: Your Honour, I strongly object to the word "finding."
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, it's not a finding. But let's not give
10 importance to words which are not -- which are not important. It's not a
12 MR. WUBBEN: Thank you, Your Honour.
13 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I do think it's relevant that --
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Why is it relevant?
15 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I think it's relevant that we are
16 aware of --
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you want to prove that the Muslims could defend
18 themselves with the weapons they had?
19 MS. RICHARDSON: No, Your Honour. I'm --
20 JUDGE AGIUS: If you don't want to prove that, if you're not
21 seeking to prove that, forget it and move to your next question. No one
22 seems to have even imagined for a moment that anyone was taking a position
23 that the Serbs had all the weaponry and that the Muslims had absolutely
24 nothing, not even one gun; no one has suggested that. I mean, we -- I
25 think you --
1 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour --
2 JUDGE AGIUS: You need to face the reality of the situation that
3 if you are living in town and you are surrounded and you are being
4 attacked from the air and from artillery from the hills, and the way you
5 are you cannot defend yourself with shotguns.
6 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I am seeking to establish that in
7 fact there were weapons present in Srebrenica prior to the attacks --
8 JUDGE AGIUS: It's granted. I don't think you need to prove it.
9 I think we are satisfied that there were a lot of weapons in Srebrenica as
10 well, but we are also satisfied for the time being that the -- if you need
11 to address the point that the Muslims could defend themselves in
12 Srebrenica and in the surrounding villages with the weapons that they had,
13 yes, I will allow you to do that by all means.
14 MS. RICHARDSON: That's fine, Your Honour, I will move on to that
16 JUDGE AGIUS: We never took the position that the Muslims had no
17 weapons; we just the position that for the time being we don't need to
18 address this matter any further because I think we've heard enough.
19 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, could I --
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah.
21 MS. RICHARDSON: Could I just have a moment?
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah.
23 [Trial Chamber confers]
24 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, if it is the case that it is not
25 necessary to explore how many weapons were in Srebrenica, then I will move
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Richardson --
3 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the Presiding Judge, please.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Sorry. Try to understand the message that we tried
5 to send loud and clear to both of you. After the end of the case of the
6 Prosecution in a way and in more than one way, the case has crystallised
7 itself and there are some issues that are extremely relevant and some
8 issues that are no longer relevant, in our opinion. And please try to
9 address those issues which you as Prosecution need to address, and which
10 the Defence needs to address because of the way in which the case for the
11 Prosecution has developed. The case and the guilt of the accused under 1
12 and 2 certainly does not depend -- Ms. Richardson --
13 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes -- yes, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: -- for the purposes of Counts 1 and 2, certainly we
15 don't need to talk about the weapons that the Muslims had in Srebrenica.
16 As regards Counts -- the other two Counts, 3 and 5, I told you: What --
17 this is going to be a clinical performance. What is relevant is whether
18 at the moment of the attack it was militarily necessary to burn down those
19 places or not, number one; secondly, who did it; thirdly, there is an
20 allegation that the accused may have been present in one or more of these
21 occasions, what does his presence mean if he was present at all; fourthly,
22 he is being charged under 7(1) and 7(3), okay. So under 7(1) it's limited
23 to aiding and abetting and under 7(3) it's whether he had effective
24 control. And also, we invite you not to waste much time on whether he had
25 a de jure superior -- there was a de jure superior/subordinate
1 relationship or whether it was a de facto one. Because if there is or
2 there was a de facto one, we will proceed.
3 So this is why I'm making it very clear: Don't get yourself lost
4 in the labyrinths of the many issues that you have in this case that may
5 seem very important on the face of it, but we may -- which we may
6 ultimately throw overboard as if they have never been presented. This is
7 the naked truth. Otherwise, if you don't want to take heed, both of you,
8 I'm telling you where, in our opinion, you need to concentrate and we are
9 telling them where they need to concentrate because after the end of the
10 Prosecution case and the throwing away of two of the counts, what's left
11 is very obvious. And you have either proved your case or you haven't.
12 So at the end of the day, how important is it for us to know
13 whether the population in Srebrenica, the Muslim population in Srebrenica
14 had just shotguns or more than shotguns or had .005 weapons per capita or
15 more than one weapon per capita? Is it going to change anything? Because
16 at the end what is going to count is: Was there a military necessity to
17 burn down all those houses? That's it. And we are not going to ask
18 ourselves many more questions beyond that.
19 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, if I may, and I'm sure you would
20 stop me if I again go into the area --
21 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't mean to stop you to interrupt you. I mean
22 to stop you only to address you to what we are telling you should be
23 concentrating upon. And when I say "we are telling you," we are not
24 telling you to concentrate on this or -- because that's your business,
25 just as we don't tell the Defence how to conduct their business. But
1 there are certain areas that are not more important than others, but there
2 are certain areas which are not going to make a difference. So why keep
3 addressing them?
4 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour. And again, it's because
5 of lack of -- we seem to --
6 JUDGE AGIUS: No, you take your time.
7 MS. RICHARDSON: -- of clarity.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: I didn't impose on you any time limit when this
9 finish this witness. And I do appreciate that you have certain concerns.
10 However, let me make it clear, if you still believe that this importance
11 of how much weapons the Muslim populations of Srebrenica had is relevant
12 and important, just tell me and I will let you put the questions. That
13 means that I will also allow the Defence to open up that chapter again.
14 MS. RICHARDSON: Just a moment, again.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's have a break and in the meantime you will have
16 time to consult. 25 minutes, please.
17 --- Recess taken at 12.30 p.m.
18 --- On resuming at 1.00 p.m.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: You have lost your --
20 MS. RICHARDSON: Oh. Thank you, Your Honour, I do apologise to
21 the Bench for my lack of robing here.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: And that could have cost you a lot. So let's --
23 did you discuss, by any chance, with Mr. Di Fazio how much time to leave
25 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I should be done in no more than 15
1 to 20 minutes, even less.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. All right. Let's proceed. I was only
3 concerned to make sure that Mr. Di Fazio will have his time, in which case
4 we would have provided ...
5 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, with respect to your question that
6 you asked prior to the break whether the Prosecution still believe it was
7 important to elicit evidence of weapons by the Muslims, it's our position
8 that it is still relevant.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: And we consider it not to be. So move to the next
10 question, please.
11 MS. RICHARDSON: All right.
12 Q. Now, Mr. Redzic, you testified yesterday that you had made visits
13 to various Serb villages, accompanied by members of the SDS or members of
14 the Serb authorities jointly to inspect villages. Is that correct?
15 A. Yes. I went together with the president of the Municipal
16 Assembly, Mr. Stankovic, who is a Serb by nationality. We didn't go there
17 to inspect, but we went there together with the police because at that
18 time there were already important issues and problems there, created by
19 some individuals that I had mentioned yesterday and it occurred in several
21 Q. Thank you. And you also testified that -- when you were asked on
22 examination-in-chief about whether or not Mr. Ibisevic had visited -- had
23 been told, excuse me, about weapons -- excuse -- maybe ...
24 Perhaps I should just rephrase the question, and I'll read from
25 the transcript and you can listen to my question. It will derive from
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 what you said yesterday. You testified in examination-in-chief regarding
2 what Mr. Ibisevic had said in his book, and I am reading from page 45 of
3 the transcript. It says that: "Simo Jusic from the village of Poznanovic
4 a member of the Municipal Assembly told me that there had been shooting
5 from the night before. The Bosniaks in the village spent the night in the
6 open, guarding the village. He also told me that Serbs from the village
7 of Fakovici had a store of weapons and ammunition stash in an abandoned
8 schoolhouse near the village of Ruljevici in the municipality of Bratunac.
9 The Serbs had received arms from JNA. The Bosniaks had seen military
10 lorries arriving in the village. I promised Simo I would personally go to
11 Ruljevici and check whether there were arms there. The Bosniaks had to
12 know the truth."
13 Now, my question is with respect to what was quoted to you from
14 the book is regarding rumours that various Serbs had weapons. And my
15 question is: Is it a fact that there were rumours on both sides about
16 weapons? In other words, there were rumours that Serbs had weapons and
17 there were rumours that Bosniaks had weapons, or Bosnian Muslims?
18 A. Yes, there were rumours that the Bosniaks did possess weapons. As
19 for the Serb people, it is true, and it comes clear from all the analysis
20 done so far by the international community and our analysis, that the
21 Serbs much earlier had transferred their weaponry from the TO and it was
22 distributed by the SDS and the JNA. So there was no misinformation there
23 pertaining to the arming of the Serb villages. As concerns the Muslim
24 villages, I claim here that of course there were exceptions but the
25 Bosniak people did not possess weapons, almost none.
1 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, at this time I would like the
2 witness to be shown -- we're still using Defence Exhibit 6 --
3 JUDGE AGIUS: 690.
4 MS. RICHARDSON: 690, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: The --
6 MS. RICHARDSON: It's page 66 of the English, and the B/C/S --
7 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.
8 MS. RICHARDSON: -- it's page 240.
9 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
10 MS. RICHARDSON:
11 Q. Now, I will read from page 66. This page, which is an excerpt of
12 the book of Mr. Ibisevic: "National Defence Council, Municipal Assembly
13 of Srebrenica, 4th April, 1992, excerpts. Minutes of the meeting."
14 THE INTERPRETER: Could you please read slowly, thank you.
15 MS. RICHARDSON:
16 Q. "The teams appointed at the preceding session of the council to
17 visit a part of municipal territory have reported to the council at the
18 National Defence Council session of 4th April, 1992: 1, the first task
19 team consisted of Besim Ibisevic, chairman of the Municipal Assembly of
20 Srebrenica; and Miodrag Stanisavijevic, commander of the municipal
21 territory defence of Srebrenica, visited the villages of Fakovici,
22 Skelani, and Bajina Basta. It was established on the site in Fakovici
23 that no JNA units or paramilitary units were present at that location."
24 Now, having read the minutes from the national council meeting, do
25 you agree that they went out to the village of Fakovici and determined
1 that there were no JNA units present or paramilitary units present at that
3 A. Based on his information and what he wrote in the book, I include
4 that with the person he mentioned here, a Mr. Miodrag, they went around to
5 see certain locations, as reported to the Municipal Assembly. He found a
6 group of people there who were located there and who were guarding a
7 warehouse full of weaponry and ammunition. By mentioning that, he said
8 that in the area of Ruljevici, Fakovici, and Skelani, large numbers of
9 people were seen wearing weapons and uniforms of drab-olive colour. He
10 mentions in the book what he saw and what his conclusions were. It is
11 true that he went with a Serb who was the TO commander of Srebrenica, and
12 they saw this with their own eyes, and even that Serb himself was
13 appalled. And he asked him, How did you dare go through that area?
14 Q. Mr. Redzic, what you've just stated is clearly inconsistent with
15 what Mr. Ibisevic has said in the meeting. Is there any indication, as
16 you look at what he has said about Fakovici, that there was a group of
17 people guarding a warehouse full of weaponry and ammunition? If you
18 just look at that first paragraph, is that mentioned in the minutes
20 A. It is not mentioned here, but that's probably for some other
21 reasons --
22 Q. Mr. Redzic, that's all I wanted to know. Now, if you go to the --
23 what is listed as Roman numeral V, it's page 67 on the English
24 version: "Ibran Mustafic, chairman of the Municipal Assembly" --
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Slowly. One moment, we need to catch up with you a
1 little bit. I think you need to go to the next page. Is it the same
3 MS. RICHARDSON: No, Your Honour -- well it should be the next
4 page, thank you.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: That's what I think.
6 MS. RICHARDSON:
7 Q. I will start reading if you've located this -- the portion that
8 I'm going to refer to.
9 Now: "Ibran Mustafic," and I'm reading from page 67, number 5, or
10 Roman numeral V, "chairman of the Srebrenica Municipal Assembly, Executive
11 Committee, visited yesterday the villages of Miletici, Derventa, Zutica,
12 and Suceska. He stated that there had been no excesses except for tension
13 noticeable in both ethnic groups."
14 There's no mention that Mr. Mustafic, as you read this meetings
15 report, there's no mention that Mr. Mustafic came across any weapons by
17 JUDGE AGIUS: We are wasting our time, Ms. Richardson, and you
18 don't want to listen to me. We are not interested in April of 1992 --
19 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I'll --
20 JUDGE AGIUS: And we are not interested in May of 1992. We are
21 interested only in what happened on those days when allegedly, according
22 to Counts 3 and 5, there was wanton destruction. That's what we are
23 interested in. You don't seem to understand, and you still seem to be
24 more interested in losing yourself in these nice labyrinths of
25 irrelevant -- does it mean to say that if there were no weapons in April,
1 then therefore there were no weapons in May?
2 MS. RICHARDSON: No, your --
3 JUDGE AGIUS: And in June and in July and in August and in
4 September and as we go into January of 1993 --
5 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, you are absolutely correct, it does
6 not say that at all --
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead, go ahead, go ahead --
8 MS. RICHARDSON: We have heard testimony from this witness that
9 there were Serb --
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, but ...
11 MS. RICHARDSON: -- and they had an enormous amount of weaponry
12 when they visited, and this is what they were able to observe. And this
13 is a matter of credibility.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Of course. All right, if it's a matter of
15 credibility, yes, you may -- you can address it. If it's a matter of
16 credibility, I won't stop you for sure. If it's a matter of credibility.
17 If it's about trying to show what was the position in April of 1992, I
18 mean, forget it, because we are not interested in that.
19 MR. WUBBEN: Yes, Your Honour, if I may add to this. Perhaps it
20 might be for the coming proceedings supportive that whenever there is a --
21 questions towards the Prosecution: Is it relevant or not, and Prosecution
22 confirm to it that Prosecution also should take the floor to give the
23 reasons why it is relevant because this might be a misunderstanding. Is
24 only relevant for that purpose but I know in advance that Ms. --
25 JUDGE AGIUS: I agree with you.
1 MR. WUBBEN: Ms. Richardson included that credibility issue.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: All right, okay. But I didn't know. I wasn't aware
3 of that. And obviously she can proceed in as far as credibility is
4 concerned. Otherwise, pushing the point forward as to what was the
5 position militarily in April 1992, come on.
6 MR. WUBBEN: This is in addition, and it might be productive for
7 the coming proceedings --
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, okay. Yes, Ms. Richardson, my apologies to
9 you. Please proceed.
10 MS. RICHARDSON:
11 Q. Mr. Redzic, you mentioned that -- I don't have any other questions
12 with respect to this document. You mentioned that there was no
13 communication with Srebrenica during the period of 1992. Is that correct?
14 A. Prior to answering your question, if I may, could I stay with item
15 7, please --
16 JUDGE AGIUS: No --
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Indeed there is an invitation to the
18 Serbs to return to their homes.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Stop, stop, stop --
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Having in mind --
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Stop. Mr. Redzic, you answer the questions that are
22 put to you and not what you would like to answer.
23 Please, Ms. Richardson.
24 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I'll just rephrase the question.
25 Q. Was there any communication that you know of with Srebrenica in
1 1992 while you were in Tuzla?
2 JUDGE AGIUS: 1992 is an entire year --
3 MS. RICHARDSON: Yeah. Your Honour, I'll be more precise.
4 Q. From May of 1992 to December of 1992.
5 A. Yes. There was some sort of communication and exchange of
6 information but only once Muslims were expelled from those areas. The
7 only source of information were those people. I have to correct myself
8 somewhat. There was even a telephone line there up until mid-June 1992.
9 Q. Were you aware that individuals were -- in Srebrenica were
10 contacting family members in Tuzla and Sarajevo via radio communication?
11 A. I can't say anything about that. I can't say yes or no. I wasn't
12 present to any of the conversations.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: So you're telling us that you never heard that in
14 spite of what the circumstances and the situation was in Srebrenica,
15 people in Srebrenica were being -- were -- had the possibility of
16 contacting their relatives via radio in Tuzla?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Perhaps in the later phase when
18 communication was open via ham radio operators and so on. But at the very
19 beginning until mid-June 1992 until the end of 1992, it was almost
20 completely blocked. There were no information -- there was no physical
21 communication as well as any other sort of communication.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. As you know, when did this ham radio
23 possibility surface? When did it happen? When did it start?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wasn't following that closely at
25 the time, since I lived some -- under such conditions that I had no radio
1 or a TV set as a refugee in Tuzla. I was accommodated with the rest of
2 the people, and I can't recall the exact date when such radio ham
3 operators communication could have been established.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Richardson.
5 MS. RICHARDSON:
6 Q. In your discussions with Ferat Hodzic, did he tell you that Serb
7 prisoners had been taken in Cerska during an operation conducted by the
8 Muslim forces?
9 A. It is about Mr. Hodzic. We didn't discuss that topic and I don't
10 know of such information.
11 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I have no further questions.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
13 So you're not showing the 328, 329? All this is --
14 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, in light of what Your Honour's
15 ruling has been --
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Right. That's why --
17 MS. RICHARDSON: I'm not.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm soliciting an explanation, that's all.
19 Yes, is there re-examination, Ms. Vidovic?
20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have only a couple of
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Please go ahead.
23 Re-examined by Ms. Vidovic:
24 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Redzic, you held a position in the
25 municipality of Vlasenica even before the war. Were you ever relieved of
1 that duty before December 1992?
2 A. Legally speaking, no.
3 Q. Is it true that intellectuals and management from Srebrenica and
4 Vlasenica as well as other municipalities in the Podrinje area were under
5 a great pressure by the SDS and did that have any impact on the fact that
6 they were the first that had to leave?
7 A. The old saying goes that the snake is best killed if its head is
8 cut off first. So they removed intellectuals first and whoever remained,
9 they were eliminated and they never managed to reach the free territories.
10 Q. My purpose was actually the following. Were there any
11 intellectuals left in the villages, either in Vlasenica or Srebrenica, who
12 would be familiar with the legal regulations of who would establish
13 appropriate organs?
14 A. No. This is the country -- there are many illiterate people. If
15 one is to look into the statistics, the figures of illiteracy are very
17 Q. Thank you. Concerning the book, we showed you a paragraph
18 pertaining to the 3rd of April, and it forms part of this book of
19 Mr. Ibisevic concerning the incident in Ruljevici. He described it there.
20 Is it true that you learned about that incident from him?
21 A. Yes, as well as for other -- or about other incidents. It was on
22 the eve of the war and it was becoming clear what was ahead of us.
23 Q. Thank you. When the Prosecutor was questioning you about the
24 excerpt from the minutes, that was the last document shown to you, you
25 said there were other reasons because of which the minutes were as they
1 were here. Could you please tell the Chamber what those reasons were.
2 A. Yes, absolutely. Those moments -- those reasons occurred a year
3 before the war. Around and in Srebrenica, the situation was similar as it
4 was in Vlasenica. When one goes through the items, the council invites
5 the Serbs to return to their work posts and to their homes because by that
6 time they have already seceded parts of the Srebrenica municipality by
7 forming another municipality with the seat in Skelani. The Muslims, the
8 Bosniaks, who were members of that body did their utmost to preserve peace
9 there and they were not in any favour of any secession or removing members
10 of families, children, women, across the Drina.
11 Q. Another question pertaining to that. On the 4th of April, 1992,
12 was there pressure exerted on the Muslims, in particular people in
13 positions such as Mr. Ibisevic, or you who were involved in the
14 functioning of municipal organs in order to accept certain decisions?
15 Did there exist such a pressure to accept or disregard something?
16 A. In order to clarify something to the Chamber, the SAO Birac was
17 proclaimed, and in the Municipal Assembly of Vlasenica, by the end of
18 February, an item was imposed on the agenda in order to vote on the
19 decision of the parliament and that Vlasenica be included within the SAO
20 Birac. After that the Serbs gained majority, particularly when I
21 mentioned the electoral results, and they forced us to split Vlasenica
22 between the three municipalities I mentioned. Otherwise, they threatened
23 to use tanks. And me and a negotiating team had to accept that, otherwise
24 I wouldn't be sitting here before you today.
25 Q. To clarify and link it up with the document, the essence of the
1 question was the following: Was there any pressure exerted on the
2 Muslim -- Muslims who were in positions of power in order to accept the
4 A. Yes, absolutely. They were ready to eliminate us, to kill us, and
5 we had to accept, irrespective of what a particular demand or request was,
6 we had to accede to it to save our lives.
7 Q. What is it that you had to do?
8 A. We had to sign any paper they would put before us.
9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honours.
10 I have no further questions.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you.
12 Questioned by the Court:
13 JUDGE ESER: Mr. Redzic, I would have some questions to you.
14 Yesterday you have been asked with regard to the relationship between the
15 different commanders in the field, and you answered that there has been
16 some conflicts between them, that there has been animosity between them.
17 Could you give some names with regard to these commanders who had some
18 conflicts with each other?
19 A. Yesterday I tried to explain this. It was Mr. Becir Mekanic and
20 Mr. Fadil Turkovic who were with the Zulfo from Suceska. There were huge
21 conflicts there as I have explained. Mr. Mekanic abandoned the area and
22 went to Cerska, the free territory of Vlasenica, and towards the end of
23 October he arrived in the territory of Tuzla. There was a clash, there
24 was animosity, there was a fight over control. And these people were not
25 commanders; they were just people who enjoyed certain reputation among the
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 people and that's why they controlled and commanded, if you will, those
2 people, although there were -- there was no subordination as such at the
4 JUDGE ESER: At this moment I was not asking for subordination.
5 It was your own term to speak of commanders. Now, you mentioned Zulfo
6 Tursunovic so far as the only name. Was there a special reason why you
7 mentioned him in particular?
8 A. I'm talking about these areas because they are close to the area
9 where Mr. Becir Mekanic and Fadil Turkovic were. The latter was the
10 commander of the police earlier. They hailed from the area, they exerted
11 influence among the people, and that area bordered on some parts of
12 Suceska, and Suceska according to my information, that's where Zulfo was.
13 JUDGE ESER: But my question was whether besides Zulfo Tursunovic
14 there was any other name mentioned with regard to commanders who had some
15 conflicts with each other. Who else had conflict with -- conflicts with
16 Zulfo Tursunovic?
17 A. Mr. Mekanic, the one that I mentioned, he also was one of those.
18 Ferid Hodzic as well. There were no command relationships over there.
19 Those were just individuals who organised themselves in order to protect
20 their homes, to protect the people who were fleeing. That was the
22 JUDGE ESER: Now, what have been the question, the issues, on
23 which they had some conflicts? What was the reason? And why did they
24 quarrel with each other?
25 A. Probably who would bear the title of the commander; that was the
1 key issue I suppose, probably.
2 JUDGE ESER: Only with regard to the title of commander, nothing
4 A. I don't know. There might have been something else that was at
5 stake, but I really don't know.
6 JUDGE ESER: We don't want to speculate, but what time within --
7 between April 1992 and March 1993, what special time are you referring to
8 that there had been animosities or conflicts between different people
9 leading certain groups? Let me put it in a very vague [sic] way, perhaps.
10 What time are you talking about?
11 A. I'm talking about Becir Mekanic and Fadil Turkovic and I'm
12 referring to the early stages of the war in Bosnia and Herzegovina up to
13 sometime towards the second half of September, when I'm talking about the
14 two of them and Zulfo. And I also said that Ferid Hodzic never recognised
15 Mr. Naser Oric or anybody else. Indeed, there were multiple clashes.
16 There was more discussion about what would rule, who would be commander.
17 Then whether defence would be organised properly and whether people would
18 be saved. The territorial separation between Cerska and Konjevic Polje,
19 which were separated from Srebrenica and from the free territory of
20 Vlasenica where Fadil Turkovic and Ibisevic were. We're talking about a
21 distance of 30 kilometres, 30 kilometres from one place to another.
22 JUDGE ESER: And with regard to your own function you have mainly
23 been involved in, let's say, civil matters to care for refugees and things
24 like this. Have you ever been involved in any strategic or military
25 decision with regard to attacks which may have been performed? Have you
1 ever been involved in military affairs during your time in Tuzla?
2 A. Absolutely not. The military has its laws and regulations; the
3 civilian authorities have theirs. I was a refugee. No local community
4 would be -- would allow me to engage in any strategy, be it military or a
5 civilian one. My task and the task of my colleagues was to look after the
6 refugees, to look after the bare necessities for their survival. That was
8 JUDGE ESER: I don't want to challenge your own function; that's
9 not the question. If you say you have not been involved in any military
10 decisions. Now, yesterday you testified that there was no chain of
11 command. Now, if you have not been involved in any military decisions,
12 how do you know that there was no chain of command?
13 A. I'm talking about the free territories around Tuzla and in Tuzla.
14 That's where people remained in their homes, and I'm not comparing that
15 with the occupied territories where ethnic cleansing had been carried out.
16 That's where there was nothing. Everybody could see that among the
17 European and world monitors who toured the area. They, themselves, did
18 not have the freedom to move around freely. The international community
19 and the international --
20 JUDGE ESER: My question was with regard to the relationship
21 between different commanders in this area, whether there was a chain of
22 command. And do I recollect -- do I -- is it correct to say that you do
23 not have own knowledge with regard to this relationship?
24 A. Not in the territories of those municipalities where I was, let
25 alone in the territories which were enclaves. It was impossible to
1 establish any contacts and it was not within my purview to issue any
2 orders, because there was the military, they had their channels, and they
3 couldn't even use their own channels in some given periods. Nothing was
4 possible there.
5 JUDGE ESER: Now, another point. You testified about attempts to
6 consolidate your resistance in the enclaves, and you testified that Mr.
7 Naser Oric was put forth as the commander of the subregion. Now, what do
8 you mean, this "put forth"? I don't know whether -- what the language in
9 Bosnian/Serbian/Croatian will be, but what do you mean as he was "put
10 forth" as the commander of the subregion?
11 A. I said that attempts were made there to create a body of
12 subregional nature in military and political terms. However, if you look
13 at the dates, if you look at everything that was going on at the time,
14 this body never took off the ground. I said that Mr. Naser Oric was
15 proposed as the commander of the armed forces. Muhamed Salihovic was
16 proposed as the president of the War Presidency of the region. Mr. Hodzic
17 was proposed as the Chief of Staff. However, looking at the time when
18 they met and when you look at the developments in Cerska and Konjevic
19 Polje, you can see that this subregion never took off the ground nor it
20 could take off the ground. If you look everything in -- if you put
21 everything in perspective, the territory and the situation, everything was
22 just a -- on paper.
23 JUDGE ESER: Okay. Of course there is a difference between
24 whether it took off the ground or whether something was initiated, but at
25 any rate he had been proposed to be commander of the subregion. Now, who
1 proposed him to be commander of the subregion?
2 A. I really couldn't say. I know that the meeting was held in
3 November; I know that from Mr. Ferid Hodzic, and I don't know all the
4 details. I don't know who the proposal came from. I don't even know who
5 was present. Not only these three people were present there, but I
6 wouldn't want to speculate as to who proposed whom because I am not privy
7 to that information.
8 JUDGE ESER: What if somebody would be proposed to be -- become
9 commander of the subregion, which I think is quite an important position,
10 so there must be certain merits to propose a person to become commander.
11 Do you know what merits played a role here?
12 A. I don't know. I wasn't there. I wouldn't talk about anybody's
13 merits or strengths or weaknesses. I wasn't there. I did not have the
14 complete information. I don't know what made them propose certain names
15 for certain positions. I don't know.
16 JUDGE ESER: Okay. I have no further questions.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I thank you, Judge Eser.
18 And I thank you, Mr. Redzic. I thank you on behalf of the
19 Tribunal, but particularly on behalf of Judge Brydensholt, Judge Eser, and
20 myself for having come over to give testimony in this case. Your
21 testimony is over now. You will be escorted very soon by our usher out of
22 this courtroom, and you will receive all the assistance you require --
23 wait. I haven't finished. You will receive all the assistance you
24 require to facilitate your return back home at the earliest. But before
25 you leave this courtroom, again on behalf of everyone present here, I
1 should like to wish you a safe journey back home.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would like to thank the Trial
3 Chamber and all those present in this courtroom.
4 [The witness withdrew]
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
6 Mr. Di Fazio, I don't think you can cover what you needed to cover
7 in two minutes. So what I suggest is that you take advantage of how the
8 circumstances developed. And after we leave, you try to have a short
9 tete-a-tete chat with your counterparts. And then tomorrow morning,
10 hopefully, you will be able to announce, both of you together, that a
11 modus vivendi has been reached on these documents.
12 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Or else if you're still not fine-tuned together, you
14 will let me know. We'll hear what the position is and we'll deal with it
15 first thing in the morning.
16 MR. DI FAZIO: So we are --
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Tomorrow in the afternoon? Are we meeting in the
18 afternoon tomorrow?
19 MR. JONES: We have no witness, though, tomorrow.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Oh, I see. Is the other one not Dachy --
21 MR. JONES: Dachy, he's arriving on Saturday, being proofed over
22 the weekend. We're happy to deal with this Monday morning.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: That's --
24 MR. DI FAZIO: That's fine. I've got no problem. I understand
25 the Defence's problems. One, and, yes, we'll talk, as you have suggested.
1 But there's only one matter that I just want to very, very briefly raise,
2 and that's this, and this is not my submission on the summaries. I want
3 to say more about it. However, the upcoming witnesses, in particular one
4 of them is Mr. Bekric.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
6 MR. DI FAZIO: And my colleague --
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, it's the fourth one.
8 MR. DI FAZIO: Mr. Wubben is going to -- is going to take that
9 witness and I'll have Dachy. Now, I don't need to go into the summaries
10 chapter and verse. Suffice it to say, we regard these as nothing more
11 than indications of areas, topics, a list of topics, at least for the
12 relevant parts. I'm not talking about the background material. We
13 propose to resolve this in an amicable way with the Defence. We propose
14 to get more details. We hope that we can, and it's particularly pressing
15 for the upcoming witnesses, particularly pressing. After the break it
16 will be --
17 JUDGE AGIUS: I told you to try and --
18 MR. DI FAZIO: So, if we can't --
19 JUDGE AGIUS: -- keep the bridges that you have built throughout
20 the case between you and intact as possible. The moment you start --
21 MR. DI FAZIO: Exactly. I agree, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: -- destroying them, then we will have big problems
23 in reconstructing them or others.
24 MR. DI FAZIO: Yeah.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: So this is my exaltation to you. And I am sure that
1 you are not the kind of lawyers that --
2 MR. DI FAZIO: No. We know we are not entitled to statements
3 and we're not seeking that sort of detail. What we're seeking is what
4 the Rules tell us we're entitled to, a summary of the facts, that's
5 all --
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, if it is necessary, let's refine this. We are
7 nonetheless available at all times here. If after we leave now you end up
8 miles apart on these issues and these issues need to be addressed either
9 tomorrow or Friday, please do let us know via the registrar and we will
10 reconvene tomorrow or Friday as necessary. And we will have all the time
11 in the world you require to have this threshed out here and then decided
13 MR. DI FAZIO: That's an admirable solution, with respect.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: We are going to be here, so there's no point in
15 forcing issues when they can be discussed -- they can be discussed. But
16 first, try to reach an agreement between you.
17 [Trial Chamber confers]
18 MR. DI FAZIO: Just one more thing, if I may. I should point out
19 that there have already been some conversations between Mr. Wubben and
20 Madam Vidovic. I don't want that to suddenly -- the fact that I didn't
21 mention that to suddenly be cause for concern on the part of the Defence.
22 I made my submissions knowing that Mr. Wubben had earlier this morning
23 spoken to Madam Vidovic --
24 JUDGE AGIUS: You need to speak more. From what I smell in the
25 air, you need to speak more. Let us know. If there is definitely two
1 diametrically opposed positions at the end of the discussions that you
2 will have, please let us know so that we can organise a sitting for
4 That's it. Madam Vidovic, sit down. Finished.
5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we have agreed on
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Fine.
8 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
9 JUDGE AGIUS: What I would expect is the two parties to contact
10 you if they need a sitting tomorrow, in which case you need to advise
11 everyone, in which case you need to advise everyone so that we will have a
12 sitting tomorrow. In other words, let's -- when I said "we are
13 available," we are truly available. And if I were to tell you how much
14 work we have in other cases to deal with, you would be little surprised at
15 all. I mean, the thing is: We need to know, however, if we are sitting
16 or not because certain work can be done here; certain work can be done at
17 home. And we won't be here if we can work at home. At least we can have
18 some fresh air at home which we cannot here. All right? Thank you.
19 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.48 p.m., to
20 be reconvened on Monday, the 11th day of July, 2005,
21 at 9.00 a.m.