Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 11054

1 Thursday, 15 September 2005

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: So good morning, Madam Registrar. Could you call

6 the case, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is Case Number

8 IT-03-68, the Prosecutor versus Naser Oric.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, ma'am.

10 Mr. Oric, are you follow the proceedings in your own language?

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours, ladies

12 and gentlemen. I can indeed follow the proceedings in my own mother

13 tongue.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Oric, and good morning to you.

15 Appearances for the Prosecution.

16 MR. WUBBEN: Good morning, Your Honours, and also good morning to

17 my learned friends of the Defence. My name is Jan Wubben, lead counsel

18 for the Prosecution. I am here together with co-counsel,

19 Ms. Patricia Sellers, and Ms. Joanne Richardson, and our case manager,

20 Ms. Donnica Henry-Frijlink.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Wubben, and good morning to you and

22 your team.

23 Appearances for Naser Oric.

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. I'm

25 Vasvija Vidovic, and together with Mr. John Jones I represent

Page 11055

1 Mr. Naser Oric. We're joined by our legal assistant Ms. Adisa Mehic and

2 our case manager, Mr. Geoff Roberts. And good morning to the colleagues

3 from the Prosecution as well.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Madam Vidovic, and good morning to you

5 and your team. Any preliminaries? Yes, Madam Vidovic.

6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Yesterday at

7 around 5.00 p.m. We were given two previously delivered statements by our

8 witness, Mrs. Karic, and I would like to take this opportunity to raise

9 two issues. First of all --

10 JUDGE AGIUS: You were given by the Prosecution?

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, the Prosecution. First of all,

12 we searched through the EDS very thoroughly and those statements were not

13 there. And when we received the statements yesterday, we established that

14 the numbers for those statements are the numbers that are simply

15 represented by gaps in the EDS. What I'm particularly concerned about

16 today is this: The statements I'm talking about are obviously packed with

17 facts that come under Rule 68 and they should have been submitted to the

18 Defence straight away for two reasons. First of all, because they cast

19 doubts on the statements and the evidence presented by the Prosecution;

20 and secondly, because they could benefit our client and also according to

21 Rule 66(B) that we've been asking for from the very start, we should have

22 been entitled to those statements because they are indispensable to the

23 Defence for preparing the Defence case and we did not get them. However,

24 at any rate we don't believe that this is a huge problem in relation to

25 this witness and you'll be able to see why soon enough. But we would like

Page 11056

1 to request the Prosecution to submit to us immediately all the previous

2 statements made by our witnesses, and we believe we are entitled to make

3 that request in line with the Rule 66(B) in order to be able to prepare

4 our Defence case properly.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you.

6 Before I give you the floor, Mr. Wubben, or whoever. I take it

7 that, if I understand you well, that there are two points that you

8 basically make what should be done in the future, but also that according

9 to you there has been a violation by the Prosecution of the provisions of

10 Rule 68(i). Are you insisting on measures to be taken by the Trial Chamber

11 against the Prosecution if the Trial Chamber ultimately is satisfied that

12 there has been such violation or not?

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we have already turned

14 to the Trial Chamber on a number of occasions making similar objections,

15 and it is up to you to make the decision. The decision in your hands. We

16 are not going to start insisting on anything; it's your decision. But as

17 to Rule 66(B), I really do believe that it is their duty and that that

18 duty should be honoured straight away. And as to the archives of the

19 Drina Corps, this is something that I find particularly worrying because

20 we keep working on the searches with regard to these archives on a daily

21 basis, day and night basically, and we've been told that it would be

22 updated on the EDS and it hasn't been done yet. And now we've been told

23 that it would be done by the end of September, and we keep having

24 witnesses here who are important witnesses and in a position to testify in

25 relation to the documents we keep unearthing. And these are important

Page 11057

1 documents for the Defence, likely to clear our client, and I would really

2 like to make this point with a great deal of insistence that we believe

3 that all this should be available on the EDS as soon as possible.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I 100 per cent agree with you

5 Madam Vidovic, there's no question about that.

6 Who's going to respond -- who's going to respond to this, please,

7 from the Prosecution? And this may ultimately require a written

8 explanation if it is necessary that you go further into the matter to find

9 out exactly why this was not disclosed earlier. Yes, Mr. Wubben.

10 MR. WUBBEN: Your Honour, when it comes to 6 -- the Drina Corps

11 collection, you should be informed that there have been meetings between

12 the Prosecution and the Defence priorly, and those meetings also end up in

13 confirmation via correspondence to confirm our position and to update

14 them, also clarifying that by the end of September it should be on EDS as

15 planned. It is a big and huge operation. And it should be anyhow updated

16 by then, but we cannot speed it up more because of all -- because of the

17 big volume of the Drina Corps collection. Anyhow, it should be completed

18 by the end of September, so that is within a couple of weeks.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Stop here for the time being. But I'm

20 making it very clear, and of course I will consult later on with my two

21 colleagues on this, that I would certainly not recommend to my two

22 colleagues to allow this to happen without envisaging or leaving the

23 possibility for remedies that might come -- become necessary for the

24 Defence. In other words, I'm making it very clear that I will be

25 recommending to my two colleagues that if as a result of this continued

Page 11058

1 exercise regarding the Drina Corps, it's the case of the Defence calling

2 more witnesses or bringing back some of the witnesses that they have, then

3 I will -- I will allow it to happen.

4 MR. WUBBEN: Mm-hmm. Yes. And we respect in that --

5 JUDGE AGIUS: So. But --

6 MR. WUBBEN: The discretion of the Trial Chamber.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: But that would mean putting further -- even further

8 back the completion of this case. So if there is a way -- I don't know

9 how you -- because obviously this is not being done by you, how the

10 process is being conducted of inputting the Drina Corps documents into the

11 EDS. However, if it is already in electronic format and there is a way of

12 checking at least by -- either by names or words or through what you have

13 already, even if it is not yet in the EDS and locating any documents that

14 might be of interest to the Defence, particularly under 66 and under 68.

15 I mean, I won't even make a difference now at this point in time. I

16 wouldn't wait until the whole exercise is completed.

17 MR. WUBBEN: Mm-hmm. Well, Your Honour, please be informed that

18 the Drina Corps collection so far already -- well, not completely put in

19 into the EDS is near -- is near the completion of it by the end of

20 September, but so far is also available for the Defence to do the searches

21 whatever they can do. And if your Trial Chamber need more --

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, but don't give me that language please,

23 Mr. Wubben. When we come to Rule 68, it's not a question of the Defence

24 can search themselves and locate the documents that are exculpating. It's

25 your obligation to disclose them as Prosecution. So that argument doesn't

Page 11059

1 hold water. Don't put us in a position where we really have to be strict

2 and inflict -- inflict sanctions on the Prosecution for having failed to

3 comply with the requirements of Rule 68 bis. The EDS system and whatever

4 e-court system will be in place will not diminish that little bit the

5 responsibility that the Prosecution has of disclosing all 68 material. Am

6 I making myself clear?

7 MR. WUBBEN: Yes.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: That has to be identified, selected, taken away from

9 the rest, and handed over to the Defence.

10 MR. WUBBEN: And that -- that disclosure has been the subject of

11 those meetings between the Prosecution and the Defence and this is -- and

12 that's why it's one of the services to provide them already with this

13 collection on EDS for them to have it available.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I appreciate also the difficulty in which you

15 find yourself, Mr. Wubben. Please don't think that I -- that we do not

16 understand that. However, please do also understand that the situation,

17 now that the Defence case has stated, dramatically changed automatically.

18 I mean, while you were still during the Prosecution case, you know,

19 certain loopholes, certain mistakes. I mean, you could patch the fabric

20 and one could -- one could go -- go forward. When you have already

21 started the Defence and you are already more than a month and a half into

22 it or two months into it, not to say maybe halfway through or somewhere

23 near there, the situation changes.

24 Yes, Madam Vidovic, for the time being.

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, may I just add one

Page 11060

1 point which I believe is particularly important for the sake of the

2 transcript. I even went as far as to suggest to the colleagues from the

3 Prosecution to submit the CDs on the Drina Corps to us because they do

4 have all that in an electronic version. And I said that we were willing

5 to look for the materials we need according to Rule 68. But we received

6 no reply to that request.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: There I cannot intervene because the selection of

8 the material that goes into the EDS is the prerogative of the authorities

9 here and there is -- or there may be some material that should not be in

10 the EDS. So I wouldn't interfere in that. However, you need to find a

11 solution. If you don't find a solution, an agreeable solution, amongst

12 yourselves, then I will have to impose one.

13 Now, the other thing is the alleged violation of Rule 68 in the

14 sense that the two documents -- I understand that two documents were not

15 disclosed before when they were supposedly in your possession, and that

16 when they searched the EDS the Defence found out that there were two empty

17 slots where those documents would -- should have been. So I don't want to

18 ask you or to insist that you respond to this now because it's an alleged

19 violation of one of the Rules. If you want to take our time to prepare

20 yourself properly before you answer, you can -- you can ask me for some

21 time and I will grant you some time. But that's the position. But we

22 need to know because alleged violations of Rule 68 we take extremely

23 serious, also because they have been taken extremely seriously by the

24 Appeals Chamber after the case is all over. Yes, one moment.

25 Yes, Ms. Vidovic.

Page 11061

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Let me just clarify, Your Honours.

2 When I talk about gaps, I don't refer to two documents only, there are

3 gaps in documents. There may be more documents there. For example, you

4 have a series of numbers, then a gap, and then the series continues. So

5 perhaps it may be one, two, three, a hundred documents. There's no way of

6 telling.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Oh, I see.

8 Anyway, it's up to you, Mr. Wubben. If you want to reply, please

9 do so now by all means. If you want to take some time so that you are in

10 a position to tell us when exactly these documents came into your

11 possession and your knowledge and when you became aware of them, then we

12 will give you time by all means.

13 MR. WUBBEN: Your Honours, I request that Ms. Joanne Richardson to

14 respond to that request.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Richardson.

16 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you. Good morning to you, Your Honours.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you.

18 MS. RICHARDSON: Let me say firstly that it's our position that

19 the statements of the witness who's presently testifying we do not

20 consider them Rule 68. But laying that aside, it was only in my

21 preparation last night for cross-examination that it was -- it came to

22 light that these statements had not been turned over to the Defence, and

23 of course we took immediate action in doing so. But it is our position

24 that the statements are not Rule 68. Perhaps certainly under Rule 66(B)

25 they should have been disclosed to the Defence, as it could be considered

Page 11062

1 material for the preparation of their case. Your Honours, the statement

2 in our possession -- and I should say "statements," they were given by the

3 witness in 1994 in Tuzla. There are three of them from what I can tell so

4 far. They are all in sum and substance similar to what she has testified

5 to today, and it is our position that there is nothing contained in them

6 would fall under Rule 66(8) --

7 JUDGE AGIUS: 68 (i).

8 MS. RICHARDSON: Excuse me, 68(i). And, again, certainly under

9 66(B) they should have been disclosed and, once we learned they had not,

10 we contacted the Defence about it. And at this moment we are not opposed

11 to counsel for the Defence re-opening her examination-in-chief as she

12 wishes to do so.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: There is one other thing -- yes, do you want to

14 comment on that, Ms. Vidovic, or should I continue myself? There is also

15 one other thing that I remember. I mean -- yes, Madam Vidovic.

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: I also -- and you should have noticed that -- by now

18 that I miss very little from the evidence while it is being given and I

19 usually remember it almost verbatim. Yesterday in one of your

20 examinations, Ms. Vidovic, you presented to your client [sic] that she had

21 made several statements about the -- the events that unfortunately she had

22 to live through. I take it, therefore, that you were au courant of

23 statements that she had made. Were these statements you were given by the

24 Prosecution also in your possession. If you don't want to answer, don't

25 answer. But I think we should play our cards openly here because --

Page 11063

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] No, no --

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Because we are take all the necessary steps --

3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I do want to reply. Your Honour, I

4 had two statements, one which is published in a book that I didn't get

5 from the Prosecution and one out of those three statements, but I still

6 did not get two other statements.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So the position is this: We still need

8 to see these two statements because there is no agreement between the two

9 parties as to whether they were 68(i) material. I have a very clear

10 statement from Ms. Vidovic that they are, and a clear denial from -- from

11 Ms. Richardson. We will reserve our position as regards 66. Knowing that

12 not much harm could ensue because you're not opposing that -- for the

13 re-opening of the examination-in-chief. But this matter of Rule 68

14 material needs to be considered more in depth by the Trial Chamber. So

15 please let us also have a copy of these two documents because without

16 having a look at them we are not in a position to know whether they are 68

17 bis material. And of course everything that I have said is subject to

18 agreement between the -- between me and the other -- and the other two

19 Judges. It's just as a start. All right.

20 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, the Prosecution will provide the --

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, please.

22 MS. RICHARDSON: -- Bench with all three statements in fact.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

24 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: I thought they were two.

Page 11064

1 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, evidently they are three statements

2 and they are all very similar in nature.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. But we still need to see them.

4 MS. RICHARDSON: Of course.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: And please make an effort. I know when it comes to

6 this mass of documents and selecting them and then putting them in the

7 electronic data system, it's not -- it is no simple task, but there is an

8 ongoing stage that has reached a -- there is an ongoing case that has

9 reached a crucial stage now.

10 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, we understand that and we will make

11 efforts to provide, especially with respect to witnesses coming up, any

12 statements that may -- that should be turned over and have not been turned

13 over.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: What I -- please do try to understand -- I don't

15 know how this case is going to finish it. It might turn up in a

16 acquittal, it might turn up in a conviction and sentence. But whichever

17 way it goes, I -- the problem that the Appeals Chamber encounters all the

18 time is the -- this discovery of new documents immediately after that the

19 case at trial stage is over. And this continued discovery goes on and

20 doors are re-opened and closed and windows are kept ajar and it's a

21 problem. I wouldn't -- I like to finish my cases -- if possible, have

22 them well-baked, neither undercooked nor overcooked. And if -- please do

23 try to understand me. I hate to give opportunities for you to appeal if

24 there is an acquittal based on documents that you have just now

25 discovered, and the same applies to the Defence to find out that there are

Page 11065

1 documents which should have been disclosed that were not disclosed and

2 which could have changed the -- the course of the -- of the case of the

3 Defence. So I do appeal to you to exert the most attention, please.

4 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, Your Honour, we will.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

6 MS. RICHARDSON: We will do so.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you.

8 Any further preliminaries? We will be handing down our decision

9 on the Rule 92 bis later on today. Surely there are some minor

10 corrections.

11 Mr. Pittman, please, first break, so that I give it back to you.

12 Thank you.

13 Usher, could you please escort the witness into the courtroom.

14 [The witness entered court]

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Karic, good morning to you.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: First of all, please accept my apologies for having

18 kept you for half an hour there in the waiting room. We had a minor

19 procedural matter that we needed to address, which has got absolutely

20 nothing to do with your -- with your testimony but which needed some time.

21 So we will now continue with your cross-examination. You are still

22 testifying in virtue of the solemn declaration, to speak the truth, that

23 you made yesterday, so you don't need to repeat it. Please make yourself

24 comfortable, and we hope to be able to send you back home very soon.

25 Thank you.

Page 11066

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.


3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, before the OTP starts

4 with their cross-examination, let me please say that yesterday I forgot to

5 ask that the map Exhibit 750 be signed -- or rather, initialled by the

6 witness. I believe she hasn't done it. So could she please be given

7 D750.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Thank you for pointing that out, Ms. Vidovic.

9 We can start with that.

10 Ms. -- Madam Karic, look at it before you sign it and make sure

11 that there are no changes from -- or to what you marked on it yesterday,

12 that there are no additions or other markings. Right. Are you satisfied

13 that it is the same map that you were looking at yesterday with your own

14 markings?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Please sign your name on the top

17 right-hand corner.

18 THE WITNESS: [Marks]

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Richardson.

20 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour.


22 [Witness answered through interpreter]

23 Cross-examined by Ms. Richardson:

24 Q. Good morning, Ms. Karic. My name is Joanne Richardson and I am a

25 lawyer with the Prosecution, and this morning I will be asking you a

Page 11067

1 series of questions, some of which I will be seeking clarification about

2 your testimony from yesterday.

3 Let me just say, first of all, that I will not be asking you

4 questions about the rape that occurred. And the questions that I have

5 will deal primarily with what happened in the mine and some of the events

6 prior to that.

7 Forgive me if I jump around and skip around a bit. I'll try to

8 keep it in as chronological order as I can. If there's anything that I

9 ask that you do not understand, please tell me and I will rephrase it to

10 the best of my ability. And some of the questions that I will be asking

11 may just require a yes or no answer and if you feel the need to explain

12 further, you may do so.

13 THE INTERPRETER: Counsel, please speak into the microphone.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

15 MS. RICHARDSON: Perhaps I'm not -- thank you.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: I think the witness has understood.

17 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, Your Honour. Thank you.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: And you can -- you may proceed with your first

19 question.

20 MS. RICHARDSON: I'm trying to get closer to the mike. Thank you.

21 Q. It's Karic, first I would like to ask you about your village. I

22 believe you testified yesterday that it was a mixed village, or it was in

23 1992, and that there were both Muslims and Serbs in the village. And I

24 would just like to get some clarification as to -- and forgive me, again,

25 if you have stated this yesterday and I'm asking you to repeat certain

Page 11068

1 things. Could you tell me how many Serbs were living in your village?

2 Perhaps -- let me rephrase the question.

3 Is it a fact that your village, Lasovac, is a purely mixed village

4 or are there Serbs there at the time of -- in 1992?

5 A. In my village, Lasovac, we had Muslim residents.

6 Q. So the Serbs were part of the larger Sase area. Would that be

7 correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. All right. And I believe you indicated on the map yesterday,

10 Defence Exhibit 751 [sic], that there was a Serb village in that area.

11 MS. RICHARDSON: Perhaps the usher could give the map to the

12 witness. Thank you.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: 750, yeah.

14 MS. RICHARDSON: Excuse me, 750. I believe the transcript --

15 JUDGE AGIUS: It said 751.

16 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you.

17 Q. If you can indicate for us where it was that you marked that the

18 Serb village was located in the Sase area?

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Vidovic.

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, yesterday, the witness

21 marked a whole number of Serb villages, so this question is confusing.

22 The Prosecutor should clarify precisely which village, which Serb village,

23 she had in mind.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: In fact --

25 MS. RICHARDSON: Not a problem, Your Honour, I can rephrase the

Page 11069

1 question.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: It is as if you were reading my mind, Ms. Vidovic,

3 and I am actually yesterday's transcript because I myself started feeling

4 a little bit confused.

5 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I can rephrase the question.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: She did actually -- first she was asked to mark a

7 series of villages which were Sase, Odloznik -- Podloznik, Biljaca,

8 Prisoj, Zaluzje, Voljavica, and she indicated that these were Muslim

9 villages. Then she was asked about Gradina and she said that there was

10 only one Serb village, Tubic, the Tubic family, Azlica, then Zala -- and

11 Azlica, and Zalazje, Obadi, Kostanovice, Neskovici, and she indicated that

12 they were Serb villages. And then as regards her village, as to Lasovac

13 itself, I mean you village, you said it was a Muslim village. How many

14 houses were there? About 30. Could you please tell what was the Serb

15 village bordering on your village? And then she explained that it was

16 Jaruge. And then she explained who was living in Jaruge. So to my mind

17 yesterday it was clear. What is not clear in my mind is what is not clear

18 in your mind.

19 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, Your Honour, which is why I was trying to

20 clarify.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

22 MS. RICHARDSON: So perhaps I can rephrase the question and thank

23 you for reading out the testimony from yesterday.

24 Q. Ms. Karic, I will rephrase my question. The villages that you

25 indicated were -- that were -- that were mixed, could you tell me Serbs --

Page 11070

1 Serb families there were in those villages? Were they half and half or

2 were they a little bit more Serb or a little bit more Muslims, if you

3 know?

4 A. Donja Kolonija had both Serb and Muslim residents.

5 Q. All right. And --

6 A. It was half/half.

7 Q. All right. And if you could just show us -- just point to where

8 that particular village is on the map, just in the interest of time.

9 There were a number of them circled yesterday.

10 A. [Indicates]

11 Q. All right. And which other village was mixed, other than -- other

12 than this one?

13 A. There were also the following villages: Bjelovac, Sikirici, and

14 Pirici, all of them were mixed villages.

15 Q. All right. Thank you.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, one moment, Ms. Richardson.

17 Judge Eser, please.

18 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE ESER: Just to get it clear. When you speak of 30 houses in

20 Lasovac, all these 30 houses were inhabited by Muslim people or did you

21 have Serbs among these 30 houses?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, they were all Muslims.

23 JUDGE ESER: And this Jaruge or Jaruge, was it part of Lasovac or

24 was it a separate hamlet? And if so, what was the population of Jaruge?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Jaruge was a hamlet of the

Page 11071












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 11072

1 Kostanovci village, and there were about 25 to 30 houses in Jaruge.

2 JUDGE ESER: And would the inhabitants have been Muslims or Serbs?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Serbs.

4 JUDGE ESER: Serbs.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Richardson.

6 Thank you, Judge Eser.

7 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you.

8 Q. Now Karic, could you tell me -- I'll like to ask you some

9 questions about your father. I believe his name is Ehom -- Ahmo, excuse

10 me, Karic?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Do you know whether or not he served compulsory service in the JNA

13 prior to 1992?

14 A. Yes, when he was 20.

15 Q. And do you recall whether or not -- well, I'll rephrase the

16 question.

17 And your father, I believe you testified yesterday, worked in the

18 Sase mine. Do you know how long he worked there?

19 A. About 20-something.

20 Q. And what did he do? What were his duties in the mine?

21 A. He was a miner. He dug in the mine.

22 Q. All right. Do you know if other than just the mere digging, do

23 you know if he was -- had a specialty?

24 A. No, I'm not aware of that.

25 Q. Because yesterday you testified that your father worked in the

Page 11073

1 mine with Krsto Rankic. And you explained that Krsto Rankic was a mine

2 expert and your father worked with him. Can you explain what you meant by

3 a mine expert.

4 A. They went together to work. As soon as they would come to the

5 management office they would then part their ways and each of them would

6 do their job. So my father knew at the time what his job was.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: So it may have been a question of interpretation

8 yesterday and also today I think.

9 MS. RICHARDSON: Which is why I was asking for clarification.


11 MS. RICHARDSON: I see Madam Vidovic --

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Vidovic can probably help us here.

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't know how this

14 word "expert" entered the transcript. I know well that the witness said

15 that he ignited explosives. That's what he said.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, it was mentioned in the sense that it did

17 enter into the transcript yesterday for sure; I heard it. Okay. Please

18 proceed, Ms. Richardson.

19 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: It seems there is no expertise except familiarity

21 with the job, familiarity with the job. I mean, that's how I think we

22 ought to take it -- to understand it. And we see -- I don't know. If you

23 think it means something different, please proceed.

24 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I'm just seeking for the

25 clarification.

Page 11074

1 Q. Ms. Karic, was your father involved in -- part of his duties in

2 working in the mine were setting explosives et cetera in the mine itself

3 in addition to digging?

4 A. No.

5 Q. All right. So it was only Rankic, Mr. Rankic as far as you know

6 that was involved with explosives?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Did you have any other male relatives working in the mine as well?

9 A. The entire population of the Lasovac village and surrounding

10 villages, most of them worked in the mine.

11 Q. Thank you. And what about the -- when you say "the entire

12 population," I take it you mean both men and women worked in the mine?

13 A. No, just the men.

14 Q. But there were some women who worked in the mine because I believe

15 you mentioned yesterday there were someone who was a typist.

16 A. Yes. They worked in the management office.

17 Q. Right. So there were some women, and laying aside the actual

18 manual work outside, digging and setting of explosives, there were some

19 women who worked in the mine in the administrative areas?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And do you know whether or not there was a kitchen set up for the

22 employees of the mine? And I'm referring to prior to 1992 when everyone

23 worked there in large numbers.

24 A. I don't remember.

25 Q. Your father, was he -- or other men in the village, were they

Page 11075

1 hunters? Did they hunt for sport, as did many other men in different

2 parts of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

3 A. My father did not hunt.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Vidovic.

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this was a very leading

6 question. "Did your father, similar to other men in the village, hunt?"

7 Never did this witness mention that there were any hunters in the village.

8 However, in the meantime she had replied to this is beyond the point.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, we have leading questions, we are in

10 cross-examination, not examination-in-chief. So let's continue.

11 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: But you are right, she had not mentioned others, but

13 I can't stop Ms. Richardson from putting leading questions during cross.


15 Q. Now, the individuals who -- you said your father, just to get back

16 to the last question, was not a hunter. Do you know if any other men in

17 your village were hunters? If you recall.

18 A. No, I'm not aware of that.

19 Q. And your father, do you know if he had his old JNA uniform from

20 when he served in the military during his compulsory service?

21 A. No. He didn't keep it. When he left the military, he returned

22 the uniform that had been issued to him.

23 Q. Okay. Do you know if he owned a gun, a rifle, or any other type

24 of weapon?

25 A. No, he didn't have any.

Page 11076

1 Q. I'm not sure if you gave us your father's date of birth, but how

2 old was father in 1992?

3 A. He was a middle-aged man. He was born in 1953.

4 Q. All right. I'd like to talk to you a little bit about the events

5 leading up to 1992, and specifically around the period of early part of

6 1992. I believe you testified that the -- the Serb women and children

7 were leaving in large numbers. Do you recall that?

8 A. Yes, I remember that.

9 Q. Do you know where they were going?

10 A. No. As far as I know, allegedly the families went to Serbia.

11 Q. All right. And I take it you heard this from some of the children

12 or some of the people in the neighbouring villages?

13 A. Yes. My father said that most likely they went to see their

14 relatives.

15 Q. Do you know why they were leaving? Were -- was anything said

16 about the reason for them leaving?

17 A. No. I don't know the reasons they had for leaving.

18 Q. Do you recall actually seeing them leaving, or was it a matter of

19 the Serb children not being in school, et cetera, and other people saying

20 that they had left?

21 A. Many children were absent from school. They would leave during

22 the night. In the morning we would see that families had left. They left

23 their homes during the night.

24 Q. Also at around the time they were leaving or probably just a

25 little earlier in 1992, do you recall hearing shooting in the neighbouring

Page 11077

1 villages, including your own?

2 A. In my village there was no shooting.

3 Q. And what about the neighbouring villages? Did you -- do you

4 recall hearing gunshot or fires?

5 A. Yes. I heard the gunfire coming from the villages of Jaruge,

6 Andric, and Obad.

7 Q. And these were mixed or Serb villages? And forgive me if my

8 memory isn't as sharp this morning with remembering which villages is

9 village. But just tell me, were they mixed or purely Serb?

10 A. These were Serb villages.

11 Q. All right.

12 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, at this time I would like to have

13 a -- an exhibit put to the witness. Could I have a moment?

14 [Prosecution counsel confer]

15 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, P564 -- I'm sorry. Hold on a

16 moment.

17 [Prosecution counsel confer]

18 MS. RICHARDSON: Okay, it's P564. Your Honour, if I may, if the

19 witness could be shown page 169 of the B/C/S version of the book, page 19

20 of the English version.

21 Q. Ms. Karic, I'd like you to turn to the paragraph of that page that

22 starts with "on 2nd March, 1992." Do you see that?

23 A. Yes, yes, I see.

24 Q. Now, let me just read out for the record what it says and you can

25 follow along. "On March 2nd, 1992, a delegation from the villages of

Page 11078

1 Obadi and Sase visited the municipal authorities. The villagers

2 complained of threats and nightly shooting on the part of certain

3 Bosniaks. Most of the complaints of the Serb villagers involved Resid

4 Hasanovic, a member of the reserve police. The Serbs also complained that

5 Kadir Mujic had been shooting his home-made rifle. Then there was the

6 weekly dance of Bosniak villagers in the ethnically mixed hamlet of Donja

7 Kolonija. The Serbs complained of shooting, petards, and noisy car

8 sirens. Allegedly, the Serbs in the neighbouring hamlets felt disturbed

9 and intimidated and their representatives requested that we come out and

10 see for ourselves. The next day, we went to Sase and met with

11 representatives of both ethnic groups in the area."

12 I'd like to stop for a moment and I'd like to first ask you

13 something about what is stated here in this book.

14 MS. RICHARDSON: And, just for the record, it is a book authored

15 by Besim Ibisevic.

16 Q. My first question is: Have you read this book before?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Now, with respect to this specific paragraph that I just read from

19 it, some of the things that are contained. I would like to ask you about

20 whether or not you were aware Mr. Ibisevic was part of a delegation of

21 mixed ethnicities, meaning Muslim and Serbs, and who had been involved in

22 speaking with local Muslims and Serbs from your area. Were you aware of

23 that, that this -- such a council of delegation existed?

24 A. No, I'm not aware of that. I also do not know the man you

25 mentioned.

Page 11079

1 Q. All right. So you -- and -- so you don't know Resid Hasanovic I

2 take it?

3 A. I know Resid Hasanovic. And as far as I know he came to Tuzla in

4 the beginning of 1992.

5 Q. All right -- but I'm sorry. When you say you don't know the man I

6 mentioned you mean Besim Ibisevic. Correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Thank you. Now, just going back to the beginning of this

9 paragraph, were you aware that Muslims -- well, particular, Kadir Mujic,

10 is that someone that you're familiar with?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Is he a relative?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Cousin?

15 A. He is from my mother's family.

16 Q. All right?

17 A. He is my mother's nephew, I think.

18 Q. All right. Thank you. Were you aware that he had been shooting

19 off his rifle -- well, where does he live? Let's first establish that.

20 What village does he live in?

21 A. He used to live in the village of Donja Kolonija.

22 Q. All right. And were you aware that there had been shooting going

23 on from that village, whether it involved him or anyone else?

24 A. No, there was no shooting. As far as I know.

25 Q. As far as you know, thank you. Were you also aware of the

Page 11080

1 Bosniaks holding what appeared to be some type of dance?

2 A. Yes, I did know.

3 Q. All right. And also were you in talking to the other children in

4 your age group, were you aware that the Serbs were concerned about

5 shooting or that they were concerned about the disturbances in the

6 villages?

7 A. No.

8 Q. All right. I'd like to draw your attention to the latter part of

9 that paragraph, perhaps let's start at the sentence that begins

10 with: "They also demanded arrest."

11 Do you see that portion? It's about nine lines from the bottom of

12 that paragraph. It should still be on the same page, I believe. Do you

13 see the list of names in the middle of the paragraph? One is Hamed

14 Efendic?

15 A. I do.

16 Q. All right. If you go down a few lines there's a sentence which

17 begins with: "They also demanded arrest of several Bosniaks." All right.

18 Well, let me begin reading and perhaps you'll find it. Do you see the

19 name Drago Sarac?

20 A. Yes, in the fourth column -- in the fourth line.

21 Q. All right. Well, it's -- it's -- I'm reading just a few

22 sentences -- as a matter of fact, I'm reading the sentence before that.

23 So if you listen to me and follow along you'll find it. So what I'm

24 reading precedes that.

25 "They also demanded arrest of several Bosniaks that had been

Page 11081

1 shooting their firearms, verbally abusing Serbs, or singing Ustasha songs.

2 Bosniak representatives retorted that Serbs had also been singing their

3 nationalistic songs, that Serbian volunteers had been passing through

4 Sase, and that a certain Drago Sarac was setting up a paramilitary

5 organisation. After a vigorous debate it was agreed that nightly shooting

6 should stop, a joint patrol would monitor the situation, and that the

7 organisers of the dance parties should apply for proper permit from the

8 Public Security Service." All right. And I'll end there.

9 Let me just ask you whether or not you were aware that a joint

10 patrol had been set up.

11 A. No.

12 Q. I would like to ask you a question with respect to the mine, and

13 please keep that exhibit in front of you and we'll get back to it right

14 away. Prior to April of 1992, do you recall that the individuals who

15 worked in the mine, Bosniaks and Serbs, were having difficulties working

16 together? Do -- were you aware of that?

17 A. No, I'm not aware of that.

18 Q. Did your father mention that there were problems in the mine

19 itself? I don't know. I don't remember.

20 Q. All right. Do you recall when it was that your father no longer

21 worked in the mine?

22 A. I don't remember.

23 Q. Was it -- well, let me see if perhaps throwing out a month or time

24 period would jog your memory. Did there come a time that he was no longer

25 in the mine? And I take it this possibly would have happened just before

Page 11082

1 you fled to the woods with your family?

2 A. I really don't remember.

3 Q. All right. So you don't remember if at the time your family fled

4 to the woods that he was still working -- going to work every day in the

5 mine?

6 A. No, he wasn't working at the mine at the time.

7 Q. Just before I get -- perhaps you can tell us, do you know where

8 Kadir Mujic was during 1992?

9 A. I don't know.

10 Q. Now, let's turn to another portion of this exhibit and I will be

11 referring to page 32, to page 33, and of the B/C/S that would be page 185.

12 I will begin referring to the paragraph --

13 JUDGE AGIUS: 185 is the B/C/S, I gather?

14 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, Your Honour. B/C/S is 185, English is 32.

15 And it's also in Sanction.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: And also I take it we don't have the complete

17 translation of this book, do we?

18 MS. RICHARDSON: Just a minute, Your Honour. No.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: It's something that was promised some time back.

20 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, it's in process.



23 Q. Okay. Ms. Karic, if you look at that page I will begin reading

24 from the paragraph that begins: "I ordered Nurija Porobic, secretary of

25 the National Defence Secretariat."

Page 11083

1 Do you see that?

2 A. Yes, I do.

3 Q. All right. Thank you. Now, in that -- keeping in that same

4 paragraph I will begin from the sentence that reads: "According to the

5 war schedule, Asim Redzic." Do you see his name?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Now, reading along with me I'll read it into the record.

8 "According to the war schedule, Asim Redzic, Redza, from

9 Srebrenica was in the command of the anti-sabotage platoon. He was a

10 captain 1st class in the army reserve and used to excel in military

11 practice at all the Territorial Defence exercise."

12 And I should state for the record this paragraph begins with a

13 headed date, May 6th -- excuse me, April 6th, 1992, continuing in the

14 paragraph: "He was born in 1958 and was an employee at the head office of

15 the Sase lead and zinc mine I invited him to my office, told him openly

16 that we had a chance to lay our hands on 150 rifles and some ammunition."

17 I'll stop there. Are you familiar with Asim Redzic, Redza?

18 A. No, I don't.

19 Q. You're not aware that he worked at the head office of the Sase

20 mine?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Do you know where the head office of the mine was located?

23 A. Yes, in Gradina.

24 Q. All right. My next question is whether you were aware that an

25 anti-sabotage platoon had been established in connection with the mine?

Page 11084

1 A. No, I'm not aware of that.

2 Q. Okay. Turning to page 33, and if you would look at page 186. It

3 begins with "Tuesday, 7th April, 1992." In that very first paragraph I

4 will read from the second sentence -- from the second sentence.

5 "Situation at Sase lead and zinc mine was becoming more and more

6 complex. Some people proposed that the security at the mine and the

7 police patrol in the village of Sase be stepped up."

8 Do you recall having any knowledge of the Sase mine having patrol

9 units?

10 A. What it says here is around the Sase mine. However, I'm not aware

11 of any checks or controls. I only saw the mine once I had been captured.

12 What I mean is Gradina and the administrative building.

13 Q. So did your father mention that the mine -- well, let me ask this:

14 Was your father working in the mine in April of 1992, do you recall?

15 A. I don't know.

16 Q. And do you recall if he mentioned the mine having security

17 problems?

18 A. No, he didn't mention anything.

19 Q. All right. Thank you. That's all the questions I have with

20 respect to this exhibit.

21 MS. RICHARDSON: Just a moment, Your Honour.

22 [Prosecution counsel confer]


24 Q. I'd like to ask you some questions about the mine at this time,

25 Your Honour, I do have a photograph that I would like to be shown to the

Page 11085

1 witness and we have copies. And it's also in Sanction.

2 Ms. Radic [sic], could you take a look -- would you take a look at

3 the photograph that's in front of you. Do you recognise what's before

4 you, the buildings or -- and the area?

5 JUDGE AGIUS: You can ask her directly whether that's the Sase

6 mine --

7 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: -- and then she will describe the buildings --

9 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: -- if she is familiar with them.

11 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, I will do so.

12 Q. Ms. Radic [sic], this is a photograph of the Sase mine. Do you

13 recognise it as such?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And the buildings in the photograph, do you recognise them?

16 A. Yes, I recognise it.

17 Q. Right. And were these how the buildings appeared in 1992 when you

18 were held there, similar?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Right. Let's start first with the building to the right of the

21 photograph. There's a -- it appears to be -- in the photograph anyway it

22 looks white and it also appears to be taller than the others. Do you know

23 what that building is? In other words, is this an administrative

24 building?

25 A. This is the -- these are the management offices for the mine in

Page 11086

1 Sase.

2 Q. Where were you held?

3 A. That building.

4 Q. And is this building -- does this building contain more than one

5 floor? In other words, is it a two-storey or a three-storey building?

6 A. Three storeys.

7 Q. And what floor were you held on?

8 A. The first.

9 Q. Do you know what was on the second and third floor?

10 A. As far as I know, offices.

11 Q. Did you go to the second and third floor?

12 A. I don't know what period of time you're referring to.

13 Q. I'm referring to when you were held in the building in 1992, and I

14 believe we're talking of a period of May to June.

15 A. We were on the first floor at the time. We were held in -- in the

16 management offices, which were situated on the first floor of the

17 administrative building. And when we managed to escape, we escaped on to

18 the third floor.

19 Q. All right. Let's just clarify one thing with respect to the

20 floor. When you say "the first floor," are you talking about the ground

21 floor?

22 A. No, the first floor.

23 Q. You're talking about a floor when you go into the building and you

24 walk up steps?

25 A. Yes.

Page 11087

1 Q. Thank you. Now, you mentioned that when you managed to escape

2 you -- "we escaped on the third floor."

3 Could you just provide us with some additional information. What

4 are you referring to there?

5 A. I've already mentioned in my statement that when an action was

6 taking place somewhere, we were in that hall and Djokanovic, Zvonko, came

7 into this hall and wanted to chase us out and kill us. And there was an

8 altercation amongst the Serb soldiers, and then we managed to escape on to

9 the third floor of the building and hide there.

10 Q. And when you say "we," are you referring to yourself and others?

11 A. I meant nine of us who had been left there, six girls and a woman

12 with two children.

13 Q. Now, during the period of time you were held in this building, I

14 believe you said it's the first floor, could you tell us -- could you

15 describe this first floor for us so we have an idea of what it contains

16 and perhaps tell us how big it was and also tell us how many people were

17 held there.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: What's the relevance of this question,

19 Ms. Richardson?

20 MS. RICHARDSON: Well, Your Honour, there's been --

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Where will it get us at the end?

22 MS. RICHARDSON: We could have this discussion outside the

23 presence of the witness or if you could perhaps allow me a few additional

24 questions.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, go ahead.

Page 11088

1 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you.

2 Q. I'll rephrase the question, Ms. Radic -- Karic, excuse me. Did

3 this -- looking at this building, did this first floor -- it appears as

4 though there are windows. Did the first floor have windows where you were

5 held in that area?

6 A. Yes. The windows we can see here on the facade are the windows of

7 the staircase. And the left of the building there are other windows, and

8 that's where this hall was. So as you get to the first floor, the hall

9 where we were kept was to the left.

10 Q. And were there guards present during the entire time you were held

11 there? And of course we're -- I'm leaving out the time that you left and

12 you came back, but during the entire period that you were held there, both

13 before you went to Bratunac and came back, was there always a guard there?

14 A. Yes, there was always a guard outside the doors to the hall.

15 Q. And let's get back to the photograph for a moment. There are some

16 buildings to the left. Could you tell us what those buildings are, if you

17 know? And perhaps you could tell us what they were used for during the

18 time that you were there in 1992, if you know.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: You're referring to the building with the tall

20 chimney I suppose?

21 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, Your Honour. Thank you.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. There was a gate here and

23 there was a guard there as well. And then there were lots of soldiers all

24 over the place. And in one of the buildings there was a radio centre for

25 them, radio communications centre.

Page 11089












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 11090


2 Q. And do you know that because you were able to see this out of the

3 window or you were told?

4 A. No, I saw it myself through the window.

5 Q. And where was the kitchen that you testified to yesterday?

6 A. It was behind this big building.

7 Q. Behind the administrative -- the management or the administrative

8 building that you just --

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. So is that in a separate building that we can't see in this

11 photograph?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. All right. And how many floors did that -- does that building

14 have and could you tell us where in that building the kitchen was located?

15 A. I said that it is to the right of this big white building, that's

16 where the kitchen was, on the other side. And I don't believe it had more

17 than one floor.

18 Q. Okay. And did you go into that building with the kitchen?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. How often did you go into that building and why?

21 A. Went in to peel the potatoes there.

22 Q. How often did you go?

23 A. Almost every day.

24 Q. Now, you testified that Ms. Milovanovic was -- you saw her in the

25 kitchen while you were held there, and that's Vojka?

Page 11091

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. How often did you see her there?

3 A. Almost always, whenever we taken to peel the potatoes.

4 Q. And did you talk to her?

5 A. No, we we're not allowed to talk. They were watching us, standing

6 to one side, and they were laughing at us.

7 Q. They who?

8 A. All the cooks who would be there at that time.

9 Q. And when you say you were not allowed to talk, is that because

10 someone told you not to speak to them or you just assumed you couldn't

11 talk to them?

12 A. They would be five or six metres away from us, and we were always

13 taken there by guard.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: So let's get this clear.

15 You were given strict instructions not to talk to these people,

16 weren't you?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's correct.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

19 Ms. Richardson.


21 Q. And how many women did you say there were, the cooks, that is?

22 A. Four, five.

23 Q. And they were all Serbs that you knew from before?

24 A. Yes. There were a couple I didn't know.

25 Q. All right. Thank you.

Page 11092

1 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I think we're getting close to the

2 break, unless you'd like me to continue.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: How much more time do you have left?

4 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I have about a half an hour left.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Then I think it's fair on everyone to have a break,

6 and we will continue afterwards, unless I see a show of hands telling me

7 that you wish it differently. I can't see.

8 Let's have a break. I think that's wiser. We'll have a break.

9 We'll give the witness a little bit of a break, too. And we need to mark

10 this document and --

11 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: -- will be D754. Isn't it?

13 THE REGISTRAR: P573, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes. P5 --


16 JUDGE AGIUS: 73, P573. Not map, this photo.

17 So we will have -- we will reconvene in 30 minutes' time.

18 --- Recess taken at 10.29 a.m.

19 --- On resuming at 11.10 a.m.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Richardson.

21 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour.

22 Q. Thank you. Ms. Karic, I just have a few questions remaining for

23 you and I'll try to be as brief as possible. I'd like to ask you a couple

24 of questions about the circumstances under which your father took a

25 message during the time that you were detained. You may recall your

Page 11093

1 testimony yesterday that he was asked to take a message to the Muslims to

2 surrender. Now, was he asked to take this message to your village in

3 Lasovac?

4 A. Yes. He was to take the message to the woods where the refugees

5 were, the Muslim refugees.

6 Q. Do you know if he was supposed to take it to anyone in particular,

7 any person in particular?

8 A. No, I don't know that.

9 Q. And also your aunt was also asked to take a message, and I believe

10 she went to Konjevic Polje. Would that be correct?

11 A. Yes, that's correct.

12 Q. And was she asked to take this message to anyone in particular?

13 A. No, they didn't say.

14 Q. Okay. And do you know if he actually did get to Konjevic Polje?

15 A. I didn't know.

16 Q. You also testified that your relatives ended up in Srebrenica. I

17 just want to be clear as to which relatives you're referring to. Was it

18 your father, your mother, as well as your brother?

19 A. Yes. My family, yes.

20 Q. And did your father talk to you about what happened in -- during

21 time that he was in Srebrenica?

22 A. No. I didn't talk to him about that.

23 Q. And you haven't spoken to him since -- about what happened during

24 1992 or 1993?

25 A. No. I only talked to my mother.

Page 11094

1 Q. And during the time that you were in Tuzla, were you able to

2 communicate with your mother or father in Srebrenica in 1992 or 1993? Did

3 they know where you were? Perhaps that's two different questions,

4 actually. Were you able to communicate with them? And secondly, did they

5 know that you were in Tuzla?

6 A. No, they didn't know where I was.

7 Q. No, I take it that other relatives from either your village or the

8 surrounding villages ended up in Srebrenica as well?

9 A. Yes.

10 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, at this time I would like the

11 witness to be shown Prosecution Exhibit P458.

12 Q. I'd like you to take a look at, let's say, starting with the

13 English, it's on page 26. I'll be referring to the 28th of December,

14 1992, and it will be page 37 in the B/C/S. And I believe it's also on

15 Sanction.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, let's proceed.

17 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour.

18 Q. Ms. Karic, if you look at page 37, and I'm specifically referring

19 to that -- the portion that's dated the 28 of December, 1992. Do you see

20 that date?

21 A. Yes, I do.

22 Q. Now, I will read into the record what's stated here and then I'll

23 ask you some questions about it.

24 "Mirzet Mujic from Sase was brought to the Military Police

25 station. He promised he would not behave violently and it would never

Page 11095

1 happen again.

2 "Mirzet Mujic son of Enes, born 23rd November, 1965, in Sase

3 (Lasovac) was brought to the Military Police station on 28th December,

4 1992, for violent behaviour and attacking Sadeta Bajraktarevic from Sase."

5 Now, my first question to you is do you know Mirsad Milic?

6 A. Yes, I do know him.

7 Q. And the information contained here that he was the son of Enes and

8 he was born in 1965, is that consistent with what you know about him?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And do you also know Sadeta Bajraktarevic?

11 A. Yes. I have to say that Mirsad Mujic did not live in Lasovac but

12 rather in Donja Kolonija.

13 Q. All right. Thank you. And Ms. Bajraktarevic was from Sase. Is

14 that correct?

15 A. Yes. She was from the village of Lasovac.

16 Q. Okay. Thank you.

17 MS. RICHARDSON: I don't have any other question with respect to

18 this village.

19 Q. Now, you also stated with respect to what you mentioned about

20 individuals ending up in Srebrenica. I'd like to put before you a list of

21 names and ask you whether or not you recognise any of the names on the

22 list. And this is a new exhibit, Your Honour, so we will be handing out

23 copies ending ERN number 02116776 to 6777 -- well, it's one page, 6776.

24 Thank you.

25 Ms. Karic, if you take a look at that list and just in the

Page 11096

1 interests of time I would ask you to take a look at number 5, the name,

2 Hukic Sabit from Lasovac. Are you familiar with that individual?

3 A. Yes, I am.

4 Q. And is he from Lasovac as far as you know?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And I take it you are familiar with some of the residents from

7 Sikiric?

8 A. I know their faces but I don't know their names.

9 Q. Let's go to 18. Tahic Amir from Sase, do you see that name?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And do you know this person?

12 A. Yes. He lived in the place called Gradina.

13 Q. And Samed Hajdarevic are you familiar with him?

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Number 23.

15 MS. RICHARDSON: Number 23. Thank you, Your Honour.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.


18 Q. Let's take number 25, Tahic Munir, are you familiar with this

19 person?

20 A. Yes, I know him. He also lived in Gradina.

21 Q. Okay.

22 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I do have another list to be shown

23 to the witness.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: So let's give this --

25 MS. RICHARDSON: I'm sorry, a P number.

Page 11097

1 JUDGE AGIUS: This will become Prosecution's Exhibit P574.

2 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you.

3 And we have copies of the next exhibit to be shown to the

4 witness.

5 Q. All right. Now, I -- with respect to this list that's placed

6 before you, please cast your eye on number 15, Hren Rudolf, do you know

7 that individual?

8 A. No, I don't know him.

9 Q. And -- I'm not going to read out the names, but if you look at

10 numbers 26, 27, 28, could you tell us if you know that individual?

11 A. 26 and 27, I don't know those persons.

12 Q. And do you know number 26 -- excuse me, 28? Do you know a Mr. --

13 number 28 is listed as Beriz Sehomerovic. If you don't know, that's fine,

14 we can move on. What about the 30, 31, 32, and 33?

15 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm just wondering because I haven't heard an

17 answer.

18 Do you know the persons 31, 32, 33? 30, 31? 30, 31 -- we had 26,

19 27, she doesn't know them. 28 I never heard her say "I don't know him,""I

20 didn't know him." And then we have 30, 31, 32, 33.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know only the person under 33.


23 Q. All right. And where do you know him from?

24 A. He was my neighbour. He was also from Lasovac.

25 Q. Do you also know Hakija -- this name isn't on the list. Do you

Page 11098

1 know a Hakija Muhic --

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Mujic or Muhic?

3 MS. RICHARDSON: M-u-j-i-c.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Mujic. Hakija Mujic.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I know him.


7 Q. And is he also a neighbour of yours or where do you know him from?

8 A. Yes, he is my neighbour and he is the brother of Bahrija Mujic.

9 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, just a moment.

10 [Prosecution counsel confer]


12 Q. I just have one more to ask you about. It's not on the list, if

13 you can tell me yes or no. Do you know an Amir Tahic -- or Tehic?

14 A. Yes, I know him.

15 Q. And where is he from?

16 A. From Gradina.

17 Q. And what about the Sabit Hukic?

18 A. From the village of Lasovac.

19 Q. And what about the Nezed Salihovic? That name isn't on the list.

20 I'm just asking you if -- by memory, if you know that person?

21 A. The name is not familiar.

22 Q. Okay. And Muhamed Duganic or Dugonic?

23 A. Yes, I know him.

24 Q. And where is he from?

25 A. From Donja Kolonija.

Page 11099

1 Q. All right. Thank you.

2 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I have no further questions with

3 respect to this exhibit, and if we can get a P number for it.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. This will become P575, Ms. Richardson.

5 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: In the previous document, P574, I noticed that Akif

7 Ustic was killed twice, once on the 31st of August during an ambush and he

8 was killed again on the 13th of October during another ambush.

9 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour. I think it's never a

10 good idea to be killed at all, and twice is definitely once too many.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, but --

12 MS. RICHARDSON: I get your point. I'll move on.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: He wasn't James Bond.


15 Q. I just have a few more questions for you, Ms. Karic.

16 MS. RICHARDSON: Perhaps we can have the witness shown

17 Prosecution's Exhibit 90 at this time. If we can have page -- I'm looking

18 at the English version, it's 30. And I think in the B/C/S it's page 29,

19 if I'm not mistaken.

20 Q. Now, the portion that's before you, you were asked a series of

21 questions about what it contained and whether or not some of the facts

22 were accurate. And just to make sure that you're reading from the same

23 portion that I am I'll be referring to the paragraph that starts

24 with "Mirzet Garaljevic." Do you see that name?

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Vidovic.

Page 11100

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, in order for us to be

2 able to follow, would the Prosecutor please tell us what book is this and

3 exactly what portion of it because otherwise it's hard for us to follow.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: This is --

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I know the exhibit number, but could

6 she please tell us the title of the book so that we know what this is all

7 about.

8 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, Your Honour. It's Prosecution's Exhibit 90.

9 It's the book that is written by Naser Oric, or allegedly written by Naser

10 Oric. And this was the same exhibit that the Defence used yesterday, if

11 that clarifies things.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Does that satisfy you, Ms. Vidovic?

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

15 Just to help everyone, I think we have the page number in English.

16 I just want you or wish you to repeat, Ms. Richardson, the page number in

17 B/C/S, which I think is page 29.

18 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Correct me if I'm wrong, and that's in order to help

20 Ms. Vidovic.

21 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

23 MS. RICHARDSON: I did say the page number, and it's my

24 understanding it's page 29 as well, so --

25 JUDGE AGIUS: In English it's --

Page 11101

1 MS. RICHARDSON: I'm sorry. In B/C/S it's page 29, in English

2 page 30.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.


5 Q. Ms. Karic, does that -- do you see that portion of the -- that I'm

6 referring to that has the name Mirzet Garaljevic?

7 A. No, I can't see the name at all.

8 Q. All right.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Can you put on Sanction, please, the B/C/S version,

10 if it is possible?

11 MS. RICHARDSON: We're having a problem with Sanction at the

12 moment. Just give me a minute, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, as much as you require, Ms. Richardson.

14 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you.

15 [Prosecution counsel confer]

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could the usher ensure

17 that the witness has page 59 in front of her because what confused me was

18 that the Prosecutor said "page 29." That's what confused me, so it is

19 possible that the same is happening with the witness now. It should be

20 page 59 in Bosnian.

21 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I'm not sure --

22 JUDGE AGIUS: At least check that or confirm that.

23 MS. RICHARDSON: I can check, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Because we've told the witness that it is page 29.

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, page 29 is on the

Page 11102

1 screen, which is a mistake.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, but that's the English text -- no, no, no,

3 sorry. It's the B/C/S text. Yes -- but I don't know whether it's the --

4 MS. RICHARDSON: We're trying page 59. Ms. Vidovic may in fact be

5 correct.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: So, let's --

7 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you to Defence counsel for that.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: So can you direct the witness again in that.


10 JUDGE AGIUS: Please.


12 Q. Ms. Karic, I am going to read from the portion -- it appears to be

13 three lines down in the B/C/S.



16 Q. From the portion: Mirzet Garaljevic was also arrested from his

17 way back of military service from his village of Likari ... said that his

18 son had been arrested and then set off for Sase and never came back. Ahmo

19 Karic was arrested in Lasovac when he went there to get some food.

20 I take it from your testimony that this is correct information, is

21 it not, with respect to Mirzet Garaljevic but with respect to Ahmo Karic,

22 your father?

23 A. Is this -- is this consistent with what you recall happening, that

24 he was -- that your father was on the way to get food and he was arrested

25 in your village?

Page 11103

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Okay. All right. He was later released to go to Bare and Dimnici

3 and to persuade his neighbours to surrender."

4 Is that information in substance correct?

5 A. No. He went towards the forest, Bare.

6 Q. Bare.

7 A. He didn't go to Dimnici.

8 Q. All right. So the part about Bare is correct? Was anyone sent to

9 Dimnici with a message?

10 A. As far as I can remember, before we were brought to the mine a man

11 had been sent out.

12 Q. And he was sent to Dimnici or do you know or not?

13 A. He was sent to Dimnici.

14 Q. And he was sent with a message similar to the one taken by your

15 father?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. All right. I'll read further down. "He never came back although

18 his daughter Edina had stayed in the prison as a hostage. Begajeta Mujic

19 from Lasovac had also been arrested and she appeared in Konjevic Polje one

20 day in early June 1999 [as read], brought by Lieutenant Miroljub Todorovic

21 to mediate with our resistance fighter the exchange of dead aggressors

22 body left after the attack against Konjevic Polje." [as read]

23 My question is: Well, we know that in fact you stayed and you

24 were imprisoned and kept there. With respect to your aunt, do you -- you

25 said that you don't know if she went to Konjevic Polje. Am I recalling

Page 11104

1 your testimony correctly?

2 A. She was ordered to take a message to Konjevic Polje. And at that

3 time, I didn't know whether she had ever reached Konjevic Polje or not

4 because I was getting no information whatsoever. But the next day when

5 she didn't come back, Commander Todorovic came in and said that Begajeta

6 didn't show up at the time when she was told to come back.

7 Q. Did you later learn -- did you talk to her later about where it

8 was that she went? Do you know later on after the war if you were able to

9 speak to her during that time whether she went to Konjevic Polje? If you

10 don't know, you can --

11 JUDGE AGIUS: I think the witness has already told you she doesn't

12 know whether she went to Konjevic Polje or not.

13 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, which is why I --


15 MS. RICHARDSON: If I was recalling her testimony.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: What may be interesting to know is whether actually

17 she disappeared from the world of the living that particular day on her

18 way, or whether she was still alive at some later point in time, whether

19 she's still alive today. That's --


21 Q. Ms. Karic, I take it you've heard Your Honour's questions. Is

22 your aunt still alive?

23 A. Yes, she is.

24 Q. And she didn't come back, as stated here? She didn't come back to

25 the detention facility in Sase?

Page 11105

1 A. No.

2 Q. All right. Now, just -- I'll get through this rather quickly at

3 this point. Further down it states that -- yesterday you were asked about

4 a particular portion of this book. It states: "A ring leaders were Novak

5 Stjepanovic, a.k.a. Krke, from the hamlet of Jaruge near Kostanovci and

6 Lieutenant Miroljub Todorovic. Miroljub, one of the first JNA officers

7 that came forth to take part in ethnic cleansing, was commanding the

8 battery in Sase, an outpost of the command in Bratunac."

9 My question is in regards to Miroljub Todorovic. It's a fact, is

10 it not, you testified that he was a member of the JNA?

11 A. I testified to the fact that he was from Serbia and he was a

12 commander and he was a member of the armed forces.

13 Q. Do you know if he was a commander, if he was a member of the JNA?

14 A. I don't know. I have no idea.

15 Q. The second part of this -- this portion that I've read to you I

16 would ask if he was in fact the commander of the Sase -- of the battery in

17 Sase, of the place where you were detained?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And finally, it states that "the aggressor," which is the final

20 sentence that I'm reading to you from this portion, "the aggressor units

21 broke into the village of Poljak on the 25th -- 25th and 26th of May,

22 1992, killed a number of civilians and torched some of the houses. A

23 larger massacre and torching spree was prevented by the resistance unit

24 from Kragljivode."

25 With respect to this information, do you know if in fact civilian

Page 11106

1 houses were killed -- I'm sorry, civilians were killed and houses were

2 torched from this particular village? Do you know?

3 A. I don't know. I'm not aware of that.

4 Q. All right. And just one last question with respect to this

5 portion. I probably should have read it out before, but it's a sentence

6 which reads: "According to reliable sources, most of the detainees were

7 killed and buried in the sludge deposit from the mine -- of the mine in

8 Sase."

9 Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe you also confirmed

10 that this in fact did happen and that you -- you confirmed this

11 information as it was stated in the book "Satan's son," which was Defence

12 Exhibit 751. Do you recall that?

13 A. A considerable number of civilians were supposed to have been

14 taken away for an exchange, and only several people had been killed there.

15 Q. But yesterday when you were asked whether the information

16 regarding the detainees being buried in the Sase mine area, you confirmed

17 that that happened. So I guess what I'm seeking to find out from you is

18 whether or not that particular sentence in this book is substantially

19 correct?

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Vidovic.

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, yesterday I

22 specifically asked the witness about six detainees and not about the

23 overall context and about the claim being made in the book that all sorts

24 of people were buried there. So that's what the witness testified about

25 and not the question put to her by Ms. Richardson.

Page 11107












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 11108

1 JUDGE AGIUS: I think the objection is a valid one,

2 Ms. Richardson.

3 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I won't make a point about it, but

4 it's my recollection that the exhibit was put to the witness. I would ask

5 if this confirms what she knew. And the reason I raise it is only because

6 the exhibit contained information that the witness had not particularly

7 talked about. So what I'm seeking to find out now --

8 JUDGE AGIUS: It's a whole book.


10 JUDGE AGIUS: It's a whole book.

11 MS. RICHARDSON: Indeed, and the portion that was put to her was

12 she confirmed what was she was told. And this portion of book contained

13 very specific information about Krke and a portion about him with the

14 hamlet, et cetera. In any event, Your Honour, it's really not that

15 important. I'll just move on.

16 Your Honour, if I could just have a moment, I think I may be at

17 the end.

18 [Prosecution counsel confer]


20 Q. Now, finally, Ms. Karic, you mentioned that Mr. -- Miroljub

21 Todorovic was the commander of the mine and I believe you said he did --

22 how did he treat you? Did he treat you well?

23 A. He defended us. He defended us from the local Serbs I mean. He

24 didn't participate in any rapes. He knew what was going on. He didn't

25 put a stop to it, but in a way he saved us.

Page 11109

1 Q. When you complained that you -- you had been raped, did he take

2 any action in terms of trying to prevent that from happening?

3 A. I told you when we told him what had happened, he called the

4 people who manned the ramp and he threatened them and said that Novak

5 Stjepanovic, Krke, would be banned from the perimeter of the mine. But on

6 the next day we saw him again, within the perimeter in fact.

7 Q. But you were not taken from that point on -- from that point on,

8 after he spoke to the individuals, out to be raped again, were you?

9 A. No. I myself wasn't, but other girls were.

10 Q. All right.

11 MS. RICHARDSON: Just a moment, Your Honour. Okay, Your Honour, I

12 don't have any other questions. Thank you.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

14 Is there re-examination, Ms. Vidovic?

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Just two brief questions.

16 Re-examined by Ms. Vidovic:

17 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, you were shown an excerpt from the

18 Prosecution document PP64 [as interpreted] which is a book by Mr. Besim

19 Ibisevic and I would like the witness to be shown page 02930535 once

20 again. And it's 564, the document P564.

21 If you remember -- can you see the book in front of you?

22 A. Not yet.

23 Q. Could you please look for the page 169 in the Bosnian version,

24 which is page 19 in the English translation.

25 A. Could you repeat the number, please?

Page 11110

1 Q. 169 in Bosnian.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Could we have page 19 on Sanction, please, if

3 possible?

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. This is the part that has to do with pre-war events and it has to

6 do with a shootout in your area. And I'm going to read out two sentences

7 to you. It says: "According to the indications of the newly arrived

8 Serbs, those dances, there would be shots fired from firearms, explosions,

9 or else there would be noise made by cars honking. Apparently the Serbs

10 from the nearby villages were frightened and their representatives had

11 asked us to go out in the field."

12 Witness, can you please explain what it means supposedly --

13 supposedly frightened and concerned?

14 A. It means that it is not certain -- supposedly. It means that it

15 is a supposition, an assumption.

16 Q. Thank you. Further down below in the text there is a reference to

17 a meeting and it says: "The meeting was held in one of the classrooms and

18 there were the representatives of the local Serbs and the noisiest were

19 Petko Rankic," and I would like to ask you whether Petko Rankic is the

20 person you said was manning the ramp?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. When you saw him at the time, was he armed? Was he wearing a

23 uniform?

24 A. Yes, he was uniformed and he was armed.

25 Q. Thank you. I'm going to ask you about somebody else. You were

Page 11111

1 asked about Asim Redzic, a person from Srebrenica who used to work in the

2 administrative building of the mine. Did you know any of the people from

3 Srebrenica who used to work at the mine?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Have I understood you correctly in that you said that you knew the

6 miners who worked inside the mine who were actually digging the hole

7 inside with your father?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Just one question. Mrs. Vojka Milovanovic, was it somebody whom

10 you knew well before the war?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Did you know her husband?

13 A. Yes, he was Miko.

14 Q. Thank you.

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'll just back to this

16 book for a moment, the bit that I've just quoted.

17 Q. In this book, and this is the document P90, even if you don't have

18 the book you will remember, it's 02919276, it's the part referring to your

19 father, Ahmo Karic. It says: "Ahmo Karic was captured in Lasovac on the

20 occasion when he came to collect some food, was allowed to go see his

21 neighbours in Bare and Dimnici and relay a message to them to give

22 themselves up."

23 Is it true at all that your father was given a message to take to

24 Dimnici or is Dimnici an all together village?

25 A. That's not correct at all. Dimnici is on the other side in

Page 11112

1 relation to our village. It is further away from our village.

2 Q. And does it mean that this information is incorrect?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Thank you. So the information according to which your father was

5 meant to be carrying a message to Dimnici, as stated in this book, is

6 incorrect?

7 A. Yes, it's incorrect.

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I have no

9 further questions.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Madam Vidovic.

11 Do you have any questions? Do you have any questions? I don't

12 have any questions.

13 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, if I may.


15 MS. RICHARDSON: I don't have any questions for the witness but in

16 fact I would like to clear up this business of Akif Ustic being killed

17 twice. Evidently there was a slight mistake in the translation. Number

18 4, it is Atif Ustic, number 6 is Akif Ustic, which is a -- different in

19 the spelling of the first name. I'm looking at the B/C/S, Your Honour,

20 number 4 and number 6.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: But in the English translation it's Akif Ustic.

22 MS. RICHARDSON: It's clearly a mistake on our part in the

23 translation.


25 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you.

Page 11113

1 JUDGE AGIUS: So Madam Karic, we've come to the end of your

2 testimony, and I am sure that you're happy that it is so. It means

3 that --

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: It means that very soon you will leave this

6 courtroom. The -- our -- Madam Usher will escort you out of this

7 courtroom, but before you leave us on behalf of Judge Brydensholt and

8 Judge Eser and on my own behalf, but also on behalf of the Tribunal, I

9 would like to thank you for having been kind enough to come forward and

10 give evidence as a Defence witness. You will, I can assure you, receive

11 all the assistance you require to facilitate your return back home at your

12 earliest -- at the earliest opportunity. And on behalf of everyone

13 present in this courtroom, I wish you a safe journey back home.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I would

15 like to thank you, too.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: So we have got some matters to deal with before we

17 adjourn to tomorrow.

18 The other witness is not here to start, no, is he?

19 MR. JONES: She, no, not today.

20 [The witness withdrew]

21 JUDGE AGIUS: But you're going to make an effort to finish

22 tomorrow, you said, both of you?

23 MR. JONES: Yes, I thought on that subject I might say,

24 Your Honour, that I'm planning to be no more than an hour and a half

25 precisely so that we can finish with her tomorrow.

Page 11114

1 JUDGE AGIUS: That's perfect.

2 MR. JONES: And along the understanding, I mean, if it's possible

3 to have such understanding, that we will be finished with her tomorrow. I

4 wouldn't like to do all my utmost to be within an hour and a half and then

5 find we go into Monday.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. No, thanks.

7 Now we have two matters to thresh. I take it, Ms. Richardson, in

8 the meantime as you have made available or you were about to make

9 available the three witness statements that Madam Vidovic referred to

10 earlier on. Please go ahead. I think we're -- it's appropriate that they

11 be entered in the records of the case, at least for the purpose that we

12 need to deal with them.

13 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: In other words, I'm making it clear that what is

15 contained in them will not constitute evidence for the purpose of the case

16 against Naser Oric. Am I clear on this, Mr. Jones and Mr. Wubben? We are

17 only going to --

18 MR. WUBBEN: Yes, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: -- Take cognisance of them only in relation to

20 establishing whether they should have been disclosed under Rule 68(i),

21 that's all. Rest we are not going to care about. In other words, they

22 will not substitute in any way or supplement in any way the witness [sic]

23 that Madam Karic gave here viva voce.

24 Yes, Ms. Richardson.

25 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour. Your Honour, for the

Page 11115

1 record the Prosecution turned over during the break three witness

2 statements to the Defence as well as to Your Honours. I'd like to put on

3 record the translations that we have also turned -- attached to the

4 original statement that was taken, firstly. The statement in B/C/S,

5 that's ERN number 002181 --

6 JUDGE AGIUS: I'll do that.

7 MS. RICHARDSON: You will?

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Just tender them. Just tender them.

9 MS. RICHARDSON: Okay, Your Honour --

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Make sure that you have copies in front of you. So

11 I will enter the record and then ask a couple of questions.

12 MS. RICHARDSON: All right, Your Honour. At this time --

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's start with the first one, please. Let's take

14 them one by one. I want the first statement in the original and with the

15 translation, if available.

16 MS. RICHARDSON: All right. Your Honour, so that there's no

17 confusion, perhaps if I give you the ERN number and you can put it in, but

18 I just want to make sure you're looking at the same document.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, just give it to me.

20 MS. RICHARDSON: For the English it's 00218 --

21 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, don't hurry, because I have to ... Yes,

22 0021.

23 MS. RICHARDSON: 8164.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: To 8166?

25 MS. RICHARDSON: Correct.

Page 11116

1 JUDGE AGIUS: So that's the first one?

2 MS. RICHARDSON: That's the first one, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: So for the record the Prosecution at the request of

4 the Trial Chamber has entered into the record the following document: In

5 B/C/S a document consisting of three pages starting with ERN number

6 00218164 and ending with ERN 00218166, accompanied by the alleged --

7 allegedly corresponding translation into English or English translation

8 consisting of a document of five pages -- of five pages. Bearing at the

9 top of each page the same ERN numbers of the B/C/S document. So this is

10 being marked as Trial Chamber document T -- it will be T what? TC or

11 what?

12 THE REGISTRAR: C4, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: C4. C4. I am not marking them as a Prosecution

14 exhibit so that we do not confuse them later on with the exhibits that we

15 need for the purpose of our decision.

16 The next document that is being tendered at the request of the

17 Trial Chamber is the document which bears -- which in the B/C/S language

18 consists of four pages starting with ERN 00223726 right up and inclusive

19 of the page 00223729. Do I take it that you don't have an English

20 translation?

21 MS. RICHARDSON: That is correct, Your Honour. We do not have a

22 translation of this at the moment, but one is -- we've requested one.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

24 MS. RICHARDSON: So we should provide that.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: This document is not accompanied by a corresponding

Page 11117

1 translation into English and is being marked as Trial Chamber document C5.

2 Then we have the last -- and last document which is a four-page

3 document, the first three of which are in handwritten format and the last

4 being typed. They are all in B/C/S, and they start with ERN number

5 00355142 ending in 00355145, 5145. Together with this document the

6 Prosecution is tendering a corresponding English translation of the --

7 what seems to be the handwritten part, and it consists in two pages

8 numbered 1 and 2 with at the top of the right -- at the right-hand corner

9 the indications of the ERN number of the corresponding part in B/C/S, that

10 is 00355142 to 5144. This document is being marked as exhibit Court C6,

11 C6.

12 Are you happy with this mode of filing them or not?

13 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, the Prosecution is fine with this

14 mode of filing.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, Ms. Vidovic? Yes.

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. And if I may note

17 that I had C5. I've already seen C5.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Right.

19 So, Ms. Vidovic, for the Defence, indicates that what is now

20 Exhibit C5 she already was in possession of at the time of the

21 examination-in-chief. We still require the translation in any case.

22 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, Your Honour, we have begun the process of

23 the translation for this document.

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [No interpretation]

25 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay. With regard to C4, Ms. Vidovic,

Page 11118

1 did you only become aware of it -- of its existence yesterday, C4 and C6?

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you for the clarification. This

4 is precisely what we needed to know. We will of course in due course go

5 through these amongst ourselves and we will come back to you if we need

6 you to address this matter or if we require more information from you.

7 MS. RICHARDSON: Fine, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Ms. Richardson. And I also thank you,

9 Ms. Vidovic.

10 I am also informed, correct me if I'm wrong, that -- by my Legal

11 Officer, that the Prosecution has approached the -- sorry, the Defence has

12 approached the Prosecution to have made available -- to have available

13 some documents which are required for an expert handwriting analysis. Is

14 this correct? Is this information correct?

15 MR. WUBBEN: Yes, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: It's not that I doubt it --

17 MR. WUBBEN: No.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: -- but this is how it looks. So you confirm it, both

19 of you? All right.

20 So what is -- I know what the problem is but I would like you to

21 state what the problem is. Yes, and I suppose the problem comes from your

22 side?

23 MR. WUBBEN: Well, Your Honours, there is no problem as such.

24 It's more the seeking of guidance from this Trial Chamber. This is a

25 request towards us to give support of an examination by a forensic

Page 11119

1 document examiner by the -- by the Defence -- from the Defence by letter

2 of the 9th of September. And I received this letter on Monday, and on

3 Wednesday I received the background, personal background, of this

4 examiner. So we are looking into the matter and we will support the

5 request. When we take a look at the request, we noticed that there are

6 exhibits mentioned, a lot of P numbers, something like 27 P numbers, and

7 also some documents referred to by ERN numbers. So apparently no

8 documents that are tendered. But we have to find out anyhow, when it

9 relates to exhibits already tendered into evidence, it means that it

10 leaves the responsibility of the Prosecution as such from the Rules

11 towards the registry, meaning also that --

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Also the Trial Chamber because --

13 MR. WUBBEN: And also the Trial Chamber.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Because they are Court documents.

15 MR. WUBBEN: Yes. And that's why whenever we support this request

16 we want to include any implementation of any guidance or rule --


18 MR. WUBBEN: -- By this Trial Chamber.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, fair enough. And I wouldn't think for a moment

20 that there is divergence of this view on the part of the Defence. So let

21 me tell you what I think, at least, should be done for the time being.

22 I would prefer if the whole matter is formalised. In other words,

23 since we have talking ultimately of a release of some documents for the

24 purposes of forensic examination, I don't think that the matter can or

25 should be handled exclusively between the parties without the intervention

Page 11120

1 of the Trial Chamber. That's the first point that I should like to make.

2 So what I suggest is the following: That if the Defence requires

3 some documents -- both if they are already exhibited and it would also be

4 the case if they are not in the records of the case, to be examined by a

5 forensic expert. I think the matter should be referred to the Trial

6 Chamber in a formal manner by means of an ad hoc motion indicating the

7 following: The name of the expert that will be conducting the forensic

8 examination and possibly with some basic information on how trustworthy he

9 is. I mean, I'm not in any -- in any way hinting that he is not, but you

10 will understand that we have responsibility here. Secondly, whether the

11 examination will be held in the Netherlands or outside of the Netherlands.

12 In either case, where it is going to be held. Thirdly, whether -- whether

13 after consultation with your expert, Mr. Jones, Madam Vidovic, he requires

14 to have the originals, originals, or the photocopies that exist in the

15 records, because I would imagine that in the records we don't have the

16 originals, we have photocopies, although we did see some originals at some

17 point in time. So this is also a matter that you need to clarify for us.

18 Right. Because the photocopies are in the records of the proceedings.

19 The originals are not, as such, in the records of the proceedings, or at

20 least some of them aren't that and that does make a little bit of a

21 difference. And if the expert lives here in the Netherlands and he is

22 going to conduct the test here in the Netherlands, whether it -- he would

23 still require them outside the premises of this Tribunal or whether it

24 would be fine -- equally fine with him if he came over and these documents

25 are made available to him and photocopied by him or -- or whatever.

Page 11121

1 Last but not least, I wish to make it clear that I would imagine

2 that this is certainly not the first time that the matter has arisen

3 before a Trial Chamber in this Tribunal. I must confess that it is the

4 first time that it has arisen before me in this Tribunal. Not at home.

5 At home, obviously, we have had this happen and we make them available, we

6 make the original available against certified copies, receipts, and

7 everything. But what I am trying to tell you is: This being so I would

8 inquire what the normal practice of the Tribunal is in consultation with

9 the registrar. I want to know exactly how this has been handled before.

10 And in as far as we will believe that it is compatible with the rights of

11 the accused and also the security of -- and chain of custody of these

12 documents, we will try to keep the -- the system that should already I

13 suppose be in place. This is our position for the time being.

14 Obviously we can -- we will come back to you, but I would suggest,

15 Mr. Jones, that since time is flying that you follow-up with a motion

16 straight away. And this matter you will have time to consult amongst

17 yourself and also with the registrar. I will do the same and then I will

18 consult with my two colleagues on which way -- best to go about it. But

19 what I can assure you is that you can receive all the assistance that you

20 require to make it possible for your expert to conduct whatever forensic

21 analysis you think is necessary.

22 Yes, Mr. Wubben.

23 MR. WUBBEN: Yes. For the Prosecution this sounds very productive

24 and we'll speed it -- but also be very clear and transparent procedure as

25 an outcome. And in order to avoid any reply to a motion and respond

Page 11122

1 further, I would ask that the Defence also give a thought about the

2 presence of someone from the Prosecution whenever the documents, those

3 original documents, are examined. The second issue is, whenever it is

4 outside the premises of the Tribunal examined, if it is possible whether

5 or not to examine it at Dutch Forensic Institute in Rijswijk but -- by

6 this examiner, of course. And the third issue, any assistance of the

7 chain of custody practice.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: There are two -- I thank you for these three points.

9 I don't agree, or I definitely cannot follow you up on the second point.

10 The last thing I would do is to indicate to the Defence where ideally they

11 should conduct the forensic examination, that's up to them. As much as I

12 cannot indicate to them who should conduct these examinations, I do

13 concede without -- or I do concede hands down that the fact that there may

14 be originals which are in possession as Prosecution, Office of the

15 Prosecution, which are not in the records of the case. We will have to

16 take certain precautions. And equally, we have to take certain

17 precautions as records the records of the case because the -- both the

18 registry aspect and the Trial Chamber aspect have to be safeguarded.

19 That's all. But I don't think there should be any -- any difficulties

20 there.

21 Yes, Madam Vidovic or Mr. Jones, do you have any comments or is it

22 clear?

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we will be very clear

24 in our motion, which I hope shall be completed by tomorrow, as soon as

25 possible.

Page 11123

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I thank you. Although we will not be sitting

2 next week, we will all be here to deal with the matter. I'm going to be

3 here all the time so there will be a decision on it in the course of next

4 week, if there are no problems. All right. Okay.

5 I think we have covered the totality of the matters that we had.

6 I will be signing the Rule 92 bis decision now, as soon as I get out of

7 this courtroom. It's ready. I do wish to remind you that you still owe

8 us your reaction to the response on the Prosecution on the Rule 70

9 business - I don't need to hear anything now - and that you're supposed to

10 file your response with regard to the -- the other --

11 MR. WUBBEN: Witness protection.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: -- the witness protection question. When are due --

13 when are we expected?

14 MR. WUBBEN: We plan to file today, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. That's perfect. In that case, in that case,

16 we will probably be dealing with it in the course of next week.

17 All right. Anything you want to raise before we adjourn?

18 MR. WUBBEN: No, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you for your cooperation. I also thank

20 everyone else. We stand adjourned until tomorrow when we will start

21 hearing the testimony of the next witness. All right. Thank you.

22 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 12.16 p.m.,

23 to be reconvened on Friday, the 16th day of

24 September, 2005, at 9.00 a.m.