Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 11225

1 Monday, 26 September 2005

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.08 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, could you call the case, please, Madam?

6 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, good morning, Your Honours. This is case

7 number IT-03-68-T, the Prosecutor versus Naser Oric.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you.

9 Mr. Oric, can you follow the proceedings in your own language?

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours,

11 gentlemen. Yes, I can follow the proceedings in my mother tongue.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. You may sit down.

13 Appearances for the Prosecution.

14 MR. WUBBEN: Good morning, Your Honours, and also good morning to

15 my learned friends of the Defence. My name is Jan Wubben, lead counsel

16 for the Prosecution. I'm here together with co-counsel, Mrs. Patricia

17 Sellers, and our case manager, Mrs. Donnica Henry-Frijlink, and later on,,

18 with apologies, also counsel Gramsci di Fazio will join the team.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Wubben, and good morning to you and

20 your team. Present and future.

21 Appearances for Naser Oric.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. I'm

23 Vasvija Vidovic. Good morning to my friends from the Prosecution.

24 Together with Mr. John Jones I'm representing Mr. Naser Oric, and together

25 we have our legal assistant, Ms. Adisa Mehic and our CaseMap manager,

Page 11226

1 Mr. Geoff Roberts.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I thank you, Madam, and good morning to you

3 and your team.

4 While we are at preliminaries, let us go for a little while in

5 private session because I need to give some information, confidential

6 information, to the parties.

7 [Private session]

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9 (redacted)

10 [Open session]

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. On Friday, as you know, Defence filed an

12 urgent request for certification of the Trial Chamber's confidential

13 decision on second Defence motion for protective measures for Witness

14 D002. When are we hopefully expecting the response? I think I left a

15 message that this is urgent, not just from the motion itself but also

16 because the witness is amongst those which is listed to be coming over

17 shortly.

18 MR. WUBBEN: Your Honour, we intend to file our response by

19 tomorrow morning.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. If you could file it by this evening, it

21 will be better.

22 MR. WUBBEN: We do our best, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Because we will be having meetings on several

24 issues, the three judges, tomorrow and if it's on our table by the end of

25 the day then we can deal with it first thing tomorrow.

Page 11232

1 MR. WUBBEN: Yes, Your Honour, we do our best.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

3 Then later on, this week, we hope to be able to give you our

4 decision on whether the late disclosure of C4 and C6 was in violation

5 of -- by the Prosecution was in violation of Rule 68.

6 The -- is there a problem? No problem? All right.

7 I'm still waiting for a document from the Registrar's office

8 detailing the procedure or the protocol they would expect, which will not

9 be binding on us, but I mean, it's for our information and more or less

10 for information purposes and then we decide, what the procedure for

11 allowing exhibits to be examined by forensic teams outside of the

12 Netherlands. I don't know if it has been done before here but if it has

13 been done, I will get details of the procedure and of course then I will

14 let you both parties but particularly Madam Vidovic and Mr. Jones.

15 We are still waiting, unless it has been filed in these last

16 couple of days, your reply to the Prosecution's response on the Rule 70

17 matter.

18 MR. JONES: Yes, we have filed a reply.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: When did you file it?

20 MR. JONES: I believe Friday. It may only actually be going

21 through the system today but we filed on Friday.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: I haven't seen it anyway and I haven't been informed

23 of it in any case.

24 Then I think, having handed down our decision on Avdo Huseinovic,

25 you need to decide whether to bring him over or not. That's up to you.

Page 11233

1 We're not going to involve ourselves in that. But -- we are awaiting your

2 motion regarding the two witnesses Hans Vlens and Rene Caravielhe.

3 MR. JONES: Yes, and that raises issues related to what we

4 discussed earlier. It's one of the reasons for the delay. But it will

5 be, I imagine, within certainly a fortnight.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: And I think that covers the preliminaries that we

7 needed to raise.

8 Any preliminaries on your part?

9 MR. WUBBEN: Yes, Your Honour. It's about a year ago that the

10 issues has been discussed about an interview by Murat Efendic of alleged

11 to be Naser Oric and that was a year ago. We were able to provide the

12 Trial Chamber, as you might recall, a transcript but there was no video of

13 it and so we did do some actions in that respect and we can now confirm

14 that we could track the video and we will disclose it as soon as possible.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Wubben.

16 Madam Vidovic, any preliminaries on your part?

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I thank you.

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, just in regard with

20 Mr. Murat Efendic, we know that there was a video of his interview but

21 that's not what it's about. We are expecting the audio material of the

22 transcript that we received. So we are not talking about audio -- video

23 material but audiotapes. We know about the existence of the video

24 material but that has nothing to do with the transcript in question.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Wubben.

Page 11234












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Page 11235

1 MR. WUBBEN: Your Honour, to inform the parties, the video of

2 course include images, footage and audio.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: What's happening to -- okay. All right. It's

4 leveled down because I was hearing -- all right.

5 But, Ms. Vidovic, when we get this video we will see what the

6 position is. I mean -- of course if you have issues to raise arising out

7 of the filing of the video or the availability of that video, we'll deal

8 with it at that time.

9 Can we bring in the witness? Yes.

10 Registrar, 28th, we are still sitting in the afternoon, make again

11 another effort to see if we could sit in the morning because we will have

12 to rise early on the 28th if we sit in the afternoon.

13 [The witness entered court]

14 JUDGE AGIUS: And then I explain -- I will explain to the parties

15 why the three of us have to rise early, stop early, the sitting on

16 the 28th, if we sit in the afternoon.

17 So good morning to you, Mr. Malagic.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Welcome to this Tribunal.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: You should be, and I take it that you are, receiving

22 interpretation of what I'm saying in English in your own language, which

23 enables you to follow the proceedings. If at any time there is something

24 wrong with the reception of interpretation, either you're not receiving it

25 or it's too loud or you can't hear it, or too low, please draw our

Page 11236

1 attention straight away so that we'll rectify the problem.

2 You are about to start giving evidence in this case against Naser

3 Oric. You are a Defence witness. And our rules require that before you

4 start giving evidence, you enter a -- you make a solemn declaration

5 equivalent to an oath in several domestic jurisdictions, consisting in a

6 commitment on your part to speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing

7 but the truth throughout the entire testimony.

8 The text of the solemn declaration is going to be handed to you

9 now. Please read it out aloud, and that will be your solemn undertaking

10 with us that you will be testifying the truth.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

12 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


14 [Witness answered through interpreter]

15 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Malagic. Please do take a seat,

16 make yourself comfortable.

17 Have you ever given testimony before in your life?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, never.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: I'll explain to you a little bit briefly the whole

20 procedure.

21 Usher, please make sure that it is not in the way of Madam

22 Vidovic.

23 As I said, you are a Defence witness and very soon you will start

24 answering the questions that will be put to you, first by Madam Vidovic,

25 who is lead counsel for Naser Oric, and then by Ms. Sellers, who is

Page 11237

1 co-counsel in the Prosecution team.

2 Let me introduce myself. I am the presiding Judge in this trial.

3 My name is Carmel Agius and I come from Malta. To my right I have Judge

4 Hans Henrik Brydensholt from the Kingdom of Denmark. To my left I have

5 Judge Professor Albin Eser from Republic of Germany. Together we are

6 presiding over this trial. We are the three of us professional judges.

7 You are expected to be here for two or three days. There is a

8 chance of staying here even longer if instead of answering the questions

9 that are put to you, you try to give more information than is required

10 from you. Whether you will go back home in time as expected pretty much

11 depends on you. I can assure you that the lawyers will do their best to

12 be very concise and very precise in the questions and the information that

13 they need from you but it is the tendency of many witnesses to volunteer

14 more information than what is being asked from them. We don't want more

15 information. So please, my advice to you and my recommendation to you is

16 that in the course of the questioning, both from Madam Vidovic and from

17 Ms. Sellers, you answer the question, the whole question and nothing but

18 the question.

19 Did I make myself clear?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, completely.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: The last thing, I know that Madam Vidovic would have

22 explained this to you but I'm explaining it also is that both you and

23 Madam Vidovic speak the same language, and if you don't allow a small

24 pause, small interval of time, both of you, between questions and answer,

25 you will create a lot of problems to our interpreters, who have already

Page 11238

1 got a very difficult job in interpreting into Serbo-Croat, into English

2 and into French while the words are being spoken, and if you rush and jump

3 to put questions or answer questions without allowing this short interval

4 of time, we won't have all the transcript that we require. There will be

5 problems. So between Madam Vidovic's questions and your answer, please

6 allow a short interval of time so that the interpreters in the meantime

7 would have translated the words into English and into French. Okay.

8 Mr. Malagic, Madam Vidovic.

9 Examined by Ms. Vidovic:

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Good morning, Mr. Malagic.

12 A. Good morning.

13 Q. I would kindly ask you to respond to my questions as briefly as

14 possible, as was explained to you by Your Honour.

15 Mr. Malagic, could you please state your full name for the record?

16 A. My full name is Azir Malagic.

17 Q. You were born on the 1st of July of 1967 in Voljavica,

18 municipality of Bratunac?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Your father's name is Enes, your mother's is Saliha and her maiden

21 name was Salihovic?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Your sister's name is Revda, and you have three brothers, Senad,

24 Reuf, and Hajrudin?

25 A. Yes.

Page 11239

1 Q. You completed your primary education in Voljavica and then in

2 Bratunac in 1982; is that correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. You completed your secondary education in 1986 in Ljubovija and

5 there was an agricultural school?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Mr. Malagic, it might be easier for you if you moved your chair

8 closer to the microphones.

9 Thank you. You served your military term in Kraljevo in Serbia

10 from 1986 to 1987?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. In 1999, you started studying at the school of political science

13 in Sarajevo and you haven't completed your degree yet?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. You were employed in 1991 in Bratunac and you worked there for

16 only six months in Oka enterprise?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. You spent the war in the area of Srebrenica and Bratunac?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. When Srebrenica fell, your father went missing, together with

21 around 20 members of your extended family?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. After the war, you became a professional soldier with the army of

24 the Federation of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

25 A. Yes.

Page 11240

1 Q. You underwent military training under the auspices of the

2 government of the United States?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. You are now employed with the military school in Tuzla as sergeant

5 first class, and you teach the recruits who have come to serve their

6 military term and you cover the subject of artillery?

7 A. Yes.

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would kindly ask the usher to put

9 a map before the witness. We will use this map throughout the testimony.

10 It is a map of the Srebrenica area.

11 Q. Witness, could you please mark some of the villages on the map

12 that I will ask you to point to us?

13 Could the witness please use our pen?

14 Witness, I believe the map is in front of you. Please mark

15 Srebrenica for the Trial Chamber. Then Likari. Then your own village of

16 Voljavica.

17 A. [Marks].

18 Q. Please mark for the Chamber the village of Zaluzje next. Then

19 Prisoj, Biljaca, Lasovac, Poloznik, Pirici, a bit further there is

20 Dimnici. Could you please mark that? Predola. Petinici. Lokva. And

21 Potocari.

22 Please explain to the Trial Chamber what was the ethnic makeup of

23 these villages prior to the war.

24 A. Yes. These villages were exclusively inhabited by the Muslim

25 population.

Page 11241

1 Q. Could you please point out to the villages of Pobrdje now,

2 Rakovac, Bjelovac, Sikiric, Sase, Gradina, Kostanovice, Neskovici, and

3 Zalazje.

4 Could you please tell us the ethnic makeup of those villages prior

5 to the war?

6 A. The villages of Pobrdje, Bjelovac, Sikiric, Sase and Gradina, the

7 population there was mixed.

8 Q. And Kostanovice, Neskovici and Zaluzje?

9 A. Kostanovice, Neskovici and Zaluzje, those villages were

10 exclusively populated by Serbs.

11 Q. Thank you. Your native Voljavica, prior to the war, was that

12 exclusively a Muslim village?

13 A. Yes, only Muslims lived in Voljavica.

14 Q. Thank you.

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could we please assign

16 an exhibit number to this map as a Defence Exhibit? And I would kindly

17 ask the witness to keep the map because we will be referring to it

18 throughout the testimony.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, one moment, Madam Vidovic. This will be D7 --

20 THE REGISTRAR: D757, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Witness, could you initial this map in one of its corners? You

24 can initial or sign.

25 A. [Witness complies].

Page 11242

1 Q. Thank you. If it's easier, you can look straight at me to answer

2 the questions.

3 Before the war, the area of Voljavica and the environs, was that a

4 peaceful area?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Could you please explain briefly for the Chamber when did you

7 notice the situation changed?

8 A. Yes. In that area, we started noticing things right after the

9 cessation of Slovenia and particularly after the war broke out in Croatia,

10 and then we noticed that the situation in that area started changing and

11 that the Serbs started insisting on the thesis that their population was

12 endangered, particularly in the areas where Muslims were in majority.

13 Q. By which means did they try to disseminate that idea of the Serbs

14 being endangered?

15 A. It usually went via the media, newspapers, the television.

16 Q. During 1990 and 1991, did you have any knowledge on the

17 organisation and the activities of the SDS in that area?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. What was it that you noticed?

20 A. We noticed that in the villages surrounding Voljavica,

21 particularly in the village of Pobrdje, Miroslav Deronjic was a frequent

22 guest there, and he was the local SDS representative from Bratunac and he

23 used to meet with the people in Pobrdje.

24 Q. Did you notice something that made you conclude that some

25 arrangements of the SDS are being implemented in the field?

Page 11243

1 A. Yes. At the time, they had already begun collecting volunteers to

2 be sent to the war in Croatia to fight the Croatian Catholic population.

3 Q. All right. How did you attain such information? How come you

4 know of that personally? Did the Serbs try to cover up those departures

5 to fight in Croatia?

6 A. No. They used to state it publicly. They didn't even try to hide

7 it. They were proud of it.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Sellers?

9 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, thank you. I would just like to ask

10 the Trial Chamber to note that the Prosecution will not be making

11 objections in terms of leading questions during what we consider this

12 background period building up to things a bit more relevant to our

13 indictment, but just to note that the witness is being asked about how did

14 he reach conclusions and things of that nature which we haven't had a

15 proper foundation, but seeing that we are with a lengthy witness that

16 might take time, the Prosecution will allow some of the leading questions

17 but we just would like to let the Trial Chamber understand that's the

18 reason we are not at this point offering objections.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. That's pretty much in conformity with

20 the practice that we are adopted so far. Thank you, Ms. Sellers.

21 Madam Vidovic.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I was trying to get

23 through this part of the testimony as quickly as possible in that way.

24 Q. During 1991, that is the latter part of 1991, did you know of an

25 event that related directly to the war in Croatia and pertaining to your

Page 11244












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Page 11245

1 area?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. What was it about?

4 A. At that time, the Serbs had a propaganda show, so to say, in order

5 to show how endangered they were in that area, and that was broadcast by

6 the Belgrade television. They found several people who sold some of their

7 property, much earlier, and they tried to portray those people as being

8 expelled from that area.

9 Q. Were you in possession of any information that some people from

10 your area were being killed in Croatia? And did you know of some

11 funerals?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Did you see any such funeral?

14 A. Yes. The particularly well known funeral is the funeral of a

15 fighter from Zaluzje who was killed in the Croatian front.

16 Q. Was that just a regular funeral or was it something completely

17 different?

18 A. The Serbs made the best use of that funeral to promote their

19 Chetnik insignia. They displayed the so-called cockades that they used to

20 wear in the Second World War, and the Muslims have been injured greatly,

21 in particular, by that insignia and the people who used to wear it then.

22 Q. In the area of Voljavica and the surrounding Muslim villages, were

23 there any crimes committed at that time in the Second World War by the

24 Chetniks, by the people who used to wear cockades?

25 A. Yes. My grandfather was killed in the Second World War by the

Page 11246

1 Chetniks, as well as a lot of other people from Voljavica. In this recent

2 war, my father was killed by them, and it seems that it moves on from one

3 generation to the next and it is always the same insignia.

4 Q. Is it true that at the beginning of 1992, you became a member of

5 the reserve forces of the Ministry of the Interior of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Performing those tasks, did you used to cover the area of

8 Voljavica?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Did you move about in the wider area at that time when you were a

11 reserve policeman at the beginning of 1992? Did you move about a wider

12 area including the area of Bratunac and the villages associated with that

13 municipality?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. As a member of the police reserve force, did you used to carry a

16 semi-automatic rifle?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Performing the tasks of a reserve policeman, were you in position

19 to acquire certain information and to have some knowledge about the events

20 in the field starting from 1991 all the way to the beginning of the war in

21 1992?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Were you in contact with a lot of people, both Muslim and Serb,

24 from your area?

25 A. Yes. Performing my duties, I did.

Page 11247

1 Q. Via those contacts, did you acquire some information?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Did you forward such information to anyone?

4 A. Yes. To the public security station in Bratunac.

5 Q. As a reserve policeman, were you in a situation to be able to

6 notice something pertaining to the activities of the SDS of that area?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. A minute ago you mentioned that you knew Mr. Miroslav Deronjic; is

9 that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Could you please again tell the Chamber who Miroslav Deronjic was?

12 A. Miroslav Deronjic was the leader of the Bratunac SDS, their

13 president.

14 Q. You also mentioned that he contacted two people, Nikola Ostojic

15 and Branko Obrenovic. Could you tell the Chamber who those two people

16 were?

17 A. Yes. Those are people from our neighbouring village of Pobrdje

18 and they were the local SDS representatives for their localities.

19 Q. Thank you. I would kindly ask the usher to put a Defence Exhibit,

20 D625, before the witness.

21 This is a document of the Serbian Democratic Party of

22 Bosnia-Herzegovina. It's a document of the Main Staff of the Serbian

23 Democratic Party of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and it's called instruction on

24 organising and the activities of organs of the Serbian people in

25 Bosnia-Herzegovina in extraordinary circumstances. This was issued in

Page 11248

1 Sarajevo on the 19th of December, 1991.

2 First of all, Witness, before you look at this document, I would

3 like to ask you something. Is it true that the Bratunac municipality,

4 before the war, was a municipality with a majority Muslim population, if

5 we look at it overall?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. This is a long document referring to the organisation and

8 activities of the organs of the Serb people in Bosnia-Herzegovina in

9 extraordinary circumstances, but I would like to ask you about things that

10 you yourself were able to notice while working out in the field as a

11 reserve police officer.

12 Please, I would like to draw your attention to page -- do you have

13 the document in front of you? Can you open it at page that has 2, the

14 number 2 up in the corner, and that's the page that contains item 5 there.

15 Do you see it?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. I'm going to quote to you this item 5.

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, in the English

19 translation this is on page 3. Item 5 of the instructions of the SDS Main

20 Board states: "Preparations are to be made for the formation of municipal

21 state organs an executive board, administrative organs, magistrate's

22 court, public security stations, et cetera, and proposals are to be made

23 for personnel that will be holding the posts and carrying out duties in

24 these organs. Preparations are to be made for taking over the staff

25 facilities and equipment of security services, centres and their

Page 11249

1 attachment to a newly established body for internal affairs at the centre

2 headquarters."

3 What I would like to ask you now is the following: Did you, in

4 early 1992, notice anything specific in the behaviour of Serb police

5 officers? We are talking about the beginning of 1992.

6 A. Yes. In that period they no longer wanted to work together with

7 us, to go on patrols, on mixed patrols, patrols of mixed composition.

8 Q. Could you please look at item 9 now, which is on page 3? Could

9 you please find item 9? Could you please turn the page and find item 9

10 now?

11 On the English -- in the English version it's on page 3. I'm

12 going to read to you this item 9. Quoting: "Estimates are to be made of

13 the necessary number of members of an active and reserve police structures

14 of the TO, Territorial Defence, units and civil protection units. And in

15 keeping with that, these structures are to be reinforced and all other

16 necessary steps are to be taken for their activation according to how the

17 situation develops."

18 What I would like to ask you now is the following: Could you

19 please comment on this part that refers to the reserve police forces? Did

20 you notice --

21 A. Yes. At this time, the Serbs had many more cadres in the police

22 reserve force, even though their settlements were much smaller than the

23 Muslim settlements. For example, the village of Voljavica is much bigger

24 than the village of Voljavica -- of Bjelovac, and we only had five reserve

25 police officers there. While there were twice as many reserve police

Page 11250

1 officers in Bjelovac. There were ten. And the situation was similar in

2 other places in the Bratunac area.

3 Q. Did you have any -- did you see anything in particular regarding

4 the arming of the reserve police officers?

5 A. The weapons that we were issued were mostly old weapons. I was

6 issued a semi-automatic rifle. Very few Muslims received an automatic

7 rifle. Most frequently it was the M48 which means that it was

8 manufactured in 1948. While the Serbs mostly were issued with automatic

9 weapons of more recent manufacture.

10 Q. Thank you very much.

11 Could you please tell the Trial Chamber how was it possible for

12 something like that to happen? And to go on happening?

13 A. Yes. It was very possible, because all the leading or the

14 leadership cadre at the Bratunac MUP were of Serb ethnicity. There were

15 some Muslims but not so many.

16 Q. The chief of the SJB in Bratunac was Sead or Senad Hodzic. He was

17 a Muslim. According to what you know, was he in a position to prevent

18 this type of conduct, if you know?

19 A. Yes. I do. He wasn't or he didn't have very much say in these

20 matters.

21 Q. Thank you very much. I would like to take you back to the

22 document again. You were talking about propaganda activities. Could you

23 please look on this same page, item 8 of the instruction of the Main Board

24 of the SDS? This is also on page 3 of both the Bosnian and English

25 versions. I will quote. "Information propaganda activities are to be

Page 11251

1 intensified in order to inform the Serb people promptly and completely

2 about the political and security situation in the municipality and further

3 afield."

4 Mr. Malagic, do you agree that in this period, from early 1992 up

5 until the war, the propaganda information activities were intensified in

6 relation to the Serbian people?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Let us continue now with this document. Could you please look at

9 item 11 of the instruction? It's on the same page that you were just

10 looking at. I am quoting: "Preparations are to be made, organisational

11 and other conditions created for the protection of children, pregnant

12 women, elderly people, sick people, invalids or disabled people including

13 preparation force protection and evacuation to less endangered areas in

14 full cooperation with the commands and headquarters of our armed forces,

15 (JNA)."

16 So this is an instruction by the Serbian Democratic Party. Do you

17 agree that the Serbian Democratic Party considered as its own the JNA

18 forces?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Was this actually demonstrated out in the field, in practice?

21 A. Yes. We, the members of the police reserve forces, always knew

22 when they were carrying out an evacuation of children, elderly women, the

23 elderly, mostly to Serbia. All of this was covered by Radio Television

24 Belgrade. Men of military age and younger women were the ones who mostly

25 stayed at home.

Page 11252

1 Q. My question is: Did you have information whether they were

2 assisted in this by the JNA?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Please, this part of the instruction by the SDS Main Board, which

5 I just pointed out to you, was this implemented in Serbian villages in

6 your area around Voljavica and in the Bratunac area?

7 A. Yes. It was absolutely implemented.

8 Q. Along with what was happening in the early months of 1992, did you

9 notice if anybody around you was receiving weapons or being armed?

10 The usher can now remove the document.

11 A. Yes, I did notice.

12 Q. Do you have any specific information about who was being armed in

13 that area? Which people?

14 A. Yes. The population of Biljaca, Bjelovac. Most often Lasovac,

15 constantly reported to us that they were seeing armed Serbs who were

16 leaving in columns from Bjelovac towards Kunjarac in uniforms of

17 olive-drab colour, and they were carrying out shooting practice and

18 training there.

19 Q. You said they reported to us, the citizens of certain villages

20 reported to us. When you say, "Us," who do you mean? Are you thinking of

21 yourself and somebody else most probably? Could you please explain that

22 to the Trial Chamber?

23 A. Yes. I'm thinking of us, members of the reserve forces of the

24 police who were working in that area at the time. I can also give you

25 their names.

Page 11253

1 Q. Yes.

2 A. Esad Alic, Samir Vlic, Munid Suljagic, Kadrija Jusic. They were

3 my colleagues.

4 Q. When you mentioned that they -- that people from Biljaca reported

5 to you that they were seeing columns of armed and uniformed Serbs moving

6 from the direction of Bjelovac towards Kunjarac and were undergoing

7 training there, can you remember who was it who reported this to you?

8 A. Yes. Most often, this was reported to us by Sadif Zukic and many

9 others.

10 Q. Did you have similar information for other regions as well? For

11 example, for Pobrdje?

12 A. Yes. The citizens of Lasovac and the citizens of Voljavica who

13 lived closer to Pobrdje constantly reported to us that they were also

14 seeing large groups of armed and uniformed men who were leaving from

15 Pobrdje through Tablja in the direction of Obadi.

16 Q. Can you indicate this on the map?

17 A. Yes. Pobrdje, Tablja is not drawn in and then towards the Obadi

18 road.

19 Q. Could you please mark with the letter T the settlement of Tablja

20 because that is something that we will be mentioning during your

21 testimony.

22 Very well. Could you please tell us these things that the people

23 reported to you, was this -- did this become more intense in a certain

24 period? Did this intensify or not?

25 A. Yes. In March, in mid-March, and in -- and early April, this was

Page 11254












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Page 11255

1 something that happened every day.

2 Q. Are you thinking of 1992?

3 A. Yes, 1992.

4 Q. You, a member of the police reserve forces, and other members of

5 these police forces, in general Muslims, did you exchange information

6 amongst yourselves, information that you received?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Did you inform the public security station in Bratunac about that?

9 A. Yes. It was our duty to send reports to the station.

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could the witness now

11 be shown three documents? These are similar documents. They follow one

12 another. These are Exhibits D101, D102 and D103.

13 Q. Witness, could you please look at document D101? These are

14 salaries for May 1992. It says Rakovac, the first company. Have you

15 found that?

16 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, first platoon.

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Rakovac, first platoon, there is a large computer number 01320211.

19 That's the page.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Could you please look at the list? I will draw your attention to

22 certain persons.

23 Could you please look at the name under number 7, Vujadin

24 Prodanovic?

25 A. Yes.

Page 11256

1 Q. And then number 22, Dragan Prodanovic?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Now, could you please turn the page and then look where it says

4 the second platoon, and if you can look at the names of the persons under

5 number 2, Djordjo Djurkovic; 4, Dragojlo Neskovic; 15, Dusan Prodanovic;

6 25, Stevo Jakovljevic; number 32, Slavko Alempic, and now I would like you

7 to turn to the next page and look at number 24, the name Goran Vasic, and

8 I would like to ask you if you know any of these people?

9 A. Yes. I know these people very well. They are from Rakovac, it's

10 a neighbouring village next to Voljavica.

11 Q. In the course of March and April 1992, did you receive any

12 information or any reports regarding these people or not?

13 A. Yes. These people that you just -- whose names you just read out

14 were all seen armed and uniformed. The citizens -- a citizen from the

15 village of Voljavica who was transporting stones from the River Drina once

16 reported that he encountered these people who were with weapons and

17 uniforms and they were leaving towards the Drina.

18 Q. Did you compile a report about this and send it to Bratunac?

19 A. Yes. That was our duty.

20 Q. Could you please now look at this document again? And I would

21 like to draw your attention to these markings next to the names. For

22 example, under number 7, Vujadin Prodanovic, it says, PAP and so on and so

23 forth. Could you please explain to the Trial Chamber what this means,

24 PAP, M48, what you see in this document under the column that's titled

25 "weapons"?

Page 11257

1 A. Yes. These are abbreviations for infantry weapons from the

2 ex-JNA. For example, PAP, means semi-automatic rifle. AP means automatic

3 rifle. MP means machine-gun. Then another machine-gun, it's a 53, as it

4 was called. So all these are abbreviations indicating artillery weapons

5 which were used in the former JNA.

6 Q. Thank you. When Mr. Sirucic [phoen] reported this event or

7 incident, did he describe what these people whom we mentioned had, in

8 terms of weapons?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Could you please look at these names that we talked about? Did he

11 mention these specific weapons?

12 A. Yes. He did mention the weapons that are indicated here on this

13 list.

14 Q. Very well. Thank you very much. Did he tell you what -- or did

15 he report to you what these people were wearing, what kind of clothing

16 they were wearing?

17 A. Yes. The majority of the people were wearing olive-drab uniforms,

18 JNA uniforms. Some of them also had multi-coloured uniforms. It's

19 probably something that was brought from the Croat front.

20 Q. Thank you very much. Now I would like to you look at D103. It's

21 also a list of salaries for May 1992. The title of the document is, "List

22 of soldiers of the MB 120 Squad." Do you have that document in front of

23 you, Witness?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Could you please look at the document. Under number 1, it says,

Page 11258

1 Savo Lukic, Pobrdje?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Then number 4, it states, Dragan Neskovic?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And then under number 15 it says Mico Gavric. Do you know these

6 people?

7 A. Yes. Dragan Neskovic was a policeman before the war in Bratunac.

8 Mico Gavric was the foreman at the Sase mine. He was actually my father's

9 foreman and all of us from that area knew him.

10 Q. In relation to these people, in the second half of April 1992, did

11 you receive any information?

12 A. Yes. In the -- on the outskirts of Voljavica, the Bekric family

13 lived. They were above Pobrdje and Tablja. I remember very well. He was

14 very disturbed. He came to our checkpoint in Voljavica and said that

15 there were mortars stationed at Tablja. He saw that very well. I mean he

16 knew those weapons. He was evidently upset and he said that they were

17 pointing towards Voljavica.

18 Q. You said Bekric. Do you remember the full name of that person?

19 A. Yes. Bekric, Selman.

20 Q. Did you talk some more about that with him? Did he see any people

21 there?

22 A. Yes. He confirmed to me that Neskovic, Dragan was there, and Mico

23 Gavric, and he was expecting the police to do something.

24 Q. Thank you very much.

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the usher now please show the

Page 11259

1 witness document D102?

2 Q. This is a list for payment of salaries for May 1992. It states

3 here, list for payment of salaries for May 1992, and then in parentheses,

4 it says various TOs. Could you please look at name under number 2, Simic,

5 Zoran, Bjelovac; and then the number -- the name under number 7, Dragan

6 Prodanovic, Rakovac. Do you know these people?

7 A. Yes. I spoke about Prodanovic a little bit earlier. He was on

8 that TO list in the Rakovac second platoon. And I knew Zoran Simic

9 personally. He was from Bjelovac or Kunjarac more precisely. People from

10 Bileca often said about him that he was an extremist, that he insulted the

11 Muslim population in Bileca and Lasovac, that he was always in uniform,

12 even in April, that they often saw him armed, that he threatened people

13 and so on and so forth.

14 Q. Thank you very much.

15 Did you personally, while you were working as a reserve police

16 officer, have any contact with an arms shipment to the Serbs in April

17 1992?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Do you remember when this was and exactly what it was about?

20 Could you please tell the Trial Chamber about it?

21 A. Yes. This was in April 1992.

22 Q. And just one moment, please. In April 1992. This event that you

23 will tell the Trial Chamber about, is that something that you saw

24 yourself, by yourself, or were there any other people with you and if you

25 were in the company of other people, who were they?

Page 11260

1 A. There were people from the reserve police forces, such as Esad

2 Alic, Samir Vilic, and an active police officer, Mujo Husic. While we

3 were on routine patrol on the road towards our football pitch in

4 Voljavica, we noticed that from across the Drina, from Ljubovija, from the

5 Brioni hotel there were some light signals being made with a flashlight,

6 and shortly after that we noticed the same signals on the other side, the

7 Bosnian side, in Pobrdje to be more precise, and we set off in the

8 direction of those signals. As we were walking, we could see that there

9 was a boat coming close from other side of the Drina. We couldn't see

10 exactly how many people were there in the boat. We could see that there

11 were some cases there. When we approached the light signals we could hear

12 the voice, "Halt," and then there was a burst of fire.

13 We threw ourselves on the ground. We were scared. We were

14 shouting, "This is the MUP Bratunac police here. Don't shoot." We also

15 perhaps fired one or two bullets in the air. We heard a voice from the

16 other side, "Police officers, don't shoot. Kosta is here." Then we got

17 up. We approached them. There was a man there standing from Pobrdje,

18 that was Kosta Neskovic. He had his hands up in the air, "Don't shoot,

19 brothers." He thought we were Serbs. He said, "Brother Serbs from Serbia

20 are shipping weapons to us." However, when the shooting broke out, the

21 boat returned to the other side, towards Serbia, and we brought Kosta into

22 the Bratunac police station.

23 Q. On the way there, did you talk with Kosta? What did he tell you?

24 A. Yes. He was slightly intoxicated. He said that there were more

25 people there, the rest of them ran off, I don't know why. He said that

Page 11261

1 they were cowards, and he said that they were constantly receiving weapons

2 from Serbia.

3 Q. Tell me, according to your information, this statement of his

4 about weapons, was that something that he provided in a statement to the

5 Bratunac public security station?

6 A. Yes, to Inspector Fehim. Because the next day they came out for

7 an on-the-scene investigation, and they found shells of a certain type of

8 weapon, Ruskie [phoen] Dobosar, that was used in the TO at the time. Drum

9 cartridges.

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would now like the witness to look

11 at another document before the break. Could we please show the witness an

12 excerpt from a book? It's a book, "The Truth about Bratunac," written by

13 Nijaz Masic.

14 Q. I would like to show you an excerpt on page 26. Could you please

15 follow what I am reading very carefully, Mr. Malagic?

16 This is written by Nijaz Masic and it's from his book, "Truth

17 about Bratunac." And it states here: "Using the current situation after

18 the murder in Kajici and the completed programme of evacuation of the

19 Serbs from Bratunac municipality, the same day when Koljevic visited

20 Kravica, the delivery of weapons to Serbs was organised by boats from

21 Serbia over the River Drina. During the same night, after Koljevic left

22 the village guard of Voljavica, local community, discovered the transfer

23 of weapons from Ljubovija by boats on the section of the Drina River that

24 lies below the Pobrdje village. On that occasion, the village guard

25 arrested Kosta Neskovic from Pobrdje who was captured while securing the

Page 11262

1 boat which was loaded with weapons. The arrested Neskovic was delivered

2 to the public security station of Bratunac immediately. However, the

3 village guard did not manage to seize the weapons because fire was opened

4 from across the Drina from Ljubovija, from the Brioni area."

5 I would like to ask you the following about this: This excerpt of

6 Nijaz Masic's book, does that truthfully represent the event that you

7 talked about?

8 A. No, it does not.

9 Q. Could you please tell the Trial Chamber when this incident in

10 Kajici occurred and when did Mr. Nikola Koljevic visit that area, if you

11 remember?

12 A. Yes, I remember. The murder of two Muslims in Kajici took place

13 in September 1991. And this event on the Drina took place in April 1992.

14 So it's considerably later than this other event, and these two events are

15 not linked in any way at all.

16 Q. Another thing: It states here that on the arrival of Koljevic,

17 the village guard discovered the weapons shipment from Ljubovija. You

18 participated in these events. Was this something that involved the

19 village guard at all or was this something else?

20 A. No. We were regular members of the public security station in

21 Bratunac. We were the reserve forces and there was also an active police

22 officer with us and we had instructions to carry out our duties.

23 Q. We are still talking about this time period when this incident

24 occurred. Did the Public Security Service in Bratunac still function

25 jointly?

Page 11263

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. So this excerpt of Nijaz Masic's book, which talks about this

3 whole incident, including the visit by Nikola Koljevic, the time period,

4 as well as -- which mentions the village guard, is this incident true or

5 not?

6 A. No, it is not true at all.

7 Q. Thank you very much.

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we would like to have a

9 number for this Defence exhibit, please.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, thank you, Madam Vidovic. This document, which

11 is being tendered in both the original language and in the English

12 translation of it, consisting of the photocopy of the title of the book

13 and of the publishing details, and page 26 of the original language,

14 accompanied as stated by the corresponding English translation, is being

15 marked as Defence Exhibit D758. Thank you.

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, perhaps this would be

17 a good time for the break.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: We'll have a 25-minute break starting from now.

19 Thank you.

20 --- Recess taken at 10.29 a.m.

21 --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Vidovic.

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Mr. Malagic, according to what you knew then, did the Muslim

25 population of the area know of the arming of the Serbs, speaking

Page 11264












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Page 11265

1 generally?

2 A. Yes, even the children knew.

3 Q. Did that cause fear and panic amongst the Muslims?

4 A. Yes. The people of Lasovac were frightened in particular, as well

5 as people in Biljaca and Bjelovac, because they knew that even at that

6 time there were strong armed units in the Serb village of Bjelovac and

7 Kunjarac in particular. They knew that there were about 100 armed people

8 there, as well as at the Sase mine. As of March, the Serbs occupied an

9 ammunition and explosives depot used for the mine and since then the

10 regular workers stopped coming to work.

11 Q. Did you learn of that personally from the local populace as a

12 policeman?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Did murders start taking place at a certain point?

15 A. Yes. The initial murders happened in the Bratunac municipality.

16 I remember the first victim, a rather victims, these are the Skenderovic

17 brothers, Emir, and his brother as well as their father. That murder was

18 infamous for its brutality. They were not only murdered but they were

19 also fixed with equipment used -- usually used for horses, that was

20 attached to their bodies. That was particularly brutal.

21 Q. Can you remember the period approximately when such murders

22 started taking place?

23 A. Around the 17th of April.

24 Q. Can you remember what was happening with the police at that time?

25 A. A policeman of Serb nationality simply established another police

Page 11266

1 station in the old elementary school, Midhat Haca, in Bratunac and they

2 took their weapons with them.

3 Q. Did they choose amongst themselves their chief, and who was it, if

4 you remember?

5 A. Yes, I remember it well. It was Luka Bogdanovic.

6 Q. Did they do anything in relation with the Muslim policemen?

7 A. Yes, they did. They issued an ultimatum that all Muslim policemen

8 turn over their weapons, so the Muslim policemen did in order to prevent

9 an outbreak of a conflict, according to their chief's orders and his name

10 was Senad Hodzic.

11 Q. If you remember, did you speak with Senad Hodzic personally and if

12 you did, did he ever explain his order that the Muslim policemen turn over

13 their weapons?

14 A. Yes. I did talk to him. He told us, "You should do the same.

15 You should turn over your weapons. We want to avoid conflict. We will

16 turn over our weapons and then we'll see what they wish to do next."

17 Q. Therefore, the Muslim policemen of Bratunac turned over their

18 weapons? Did I understand you correctly?

19 A. Yes. All of them.

20 Q. Did -- was the conflict avoided with the Serbs as was hoped for?

21 A. No. Quite the contrary.

22 Q. Could you please explain to the Chamber what was happening in the

23 next few days with the Muslim villages?

24 A. I remember the murder of Sukrija Gusic and his underage son. Then

25 came the attacks against the villages of Hranca.

Page 11267

1 Q. Could you please point it at the map?

2 A. I don't see that on the map. Yes, there is Hranca, and Suha,

3 Borkovac but Hranca and Borkovac were particularly under attack.

4 Q. Just a moment, please. Provide brief answers and answer to my

5 questions.

6 Can you remember anything in particular concerning the attack on

7 Hranca? Could you describe that for us and how did you come to know such

8 information?

9 A. Yes. My wife was from Hranca. She was 18 at that time. She was

10 attending high school. And her father was executed in front of her. Her

11 brother was beaten and taken to the Vuk Karadzic school and they attempted

12 to rape her. They ripped off her clothes but only thanks to her mother,

13 they didn't. She stood up to the attackers, and my wife managed to escape

14 through the woods to Konjevic Polje, and the people there found her

15 half-naked, and she was hysterical for a month, and for the next five

16 years she knew nothing of her immediate family, and they didn't know what

17 happened to her and she is still traumatised today.

18 Q. Can you tell us what happened with the remainder of the population

19 of Hranca at that day?

20 A. Some families were completely executed, like the Salkic and Ramic

21 families. They were exhumed only last year. And they received a decent

22 funeral then.

23 Q. How about the rest of the population?

24 A. In the village of Borkovac, I believe 35 people were executed.

25 Only Hamidalic survived that and I believe he testified as to that before

Page 11268

1 the Tribunal. Then the village of Suha. That was torched. A lot of

2 people were killed, and those who survived fled towards Voljavica, Zaluzje

3 and Biljaca. Some were taken to the Vuk Karadzic school while others were

4 killed right there. Women were raped systematically and a group was taken

5 to the Gradina camp at Sase and then their fate is unknown until last year

6 when their bodies were exhumed from a mass grave.

7 Q. You mentioned several mass executions, including the one in

8 Borkovac. Could you tell the Chamber whether the people that were

9 executed were armed or were they civilians? For example, Mr. Alic, can

10 you remember who was executed alongside with him?

11 A. Yes. I can. His wife Halima was killed. His father, who was an

12 elderly person. Then a young girl by the name of Alma; I knew her well.

13 And all of them were women and elderly, more or less.

14 Q. Did the same fate befall Mihajlevici and Redzic?

15 A. Yes, completely the same. The people who survived fled to

16 Voljavica and Zaluzje.

17 Q. You heard their stories personally as to what happened?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. What happened in early May of 1992 in Glogova? Do you know

20 anything about that?

21 A. Yes. In Glogova, next to the local mosque, 65 people were

22 executed. Their bodies were found two years ago in a mass grave close to

23 the mosque. The DNA identification was carried out, and they received a

24 decent funeral and the place of their execution is marked.

25 Q. What happened with the population that survived from those Muslim

Page 11269

1 villages?

2 A. They fled whichever way they could. They hid in the forests, some

3 fled towards Bljecevo and Glogova, some towards Voljavica, and towards the

4 villages that were up on the hill.

5 Q. Do you know anything of a certain part of that population that was

6 taken to some camps?

7 A. Yes. We learned that a lot of people were taken to the Gradina

8 camp at Sase and some girls spent years literally at the Fontana at

9 Bratunac. They were raped and abused, and we learned of that later at

10 Likari via communication means.

11 Q. I want to interrupt you. When you refer to this group of girls

12 that was raped at the Fontana Hotel, I have a question regarding that. Do

13 you know Edina Karic?

14 A. Yes, very well.

15 Q. When you referred to that group of girls, is that a group that she

16 was a part of?

17 A. No. That was not the same group. Edina was from Vlasovac and

18 that was a separate group. And the other group I referred to included

19 women from various areas like Suha, Mihajlevici, Glogova and so on.

20 Q. Who had the Fontana Hotel under control at that time, the Serb or

21 the Muslim forces?

22 A. There were no Muslims in Bratunac at the time. They were either

23 expelled or killed. They went towards Tuzla and Kladanj.

24 Q. Just a correction for the transcript. Witness, it is stated here

25 that people from Glogova fled towards Glogova. I believe you said

Page 11270

1 something different. Where did the people from Glogova flee to?

2 A. They fled towards Bljecevo which is across the hill, towards

3 Srebrenica.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: If I am reading the same line, that is -- was

5 missing and I thank you for it, Ms. Vidovic and then it says also some

6 towards Voljavica as well. I mean, perhaps he can confirm that because

7 the direction to Srebrenica is one way, to Voljavica is another.

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Could you please clarify for the Chamber the movement of the

10 population? What were the directions they took?

11 A. People from Glogova fled towards Bljecevo, a majority of them, but

12 several of them fled the other way, they didn't know that Mihajlevici and

13 the villages alongside the Drina were torched. So -- and then they took

14 the route towards Voljavica but via the Drina. They went through the

15 fields.

16 Q. Hence some of them reached Voljavica in the end. A further

17 clarification, is Cizmici a part of Bljecevo?

18 A. Yes, that's a small portion of Bljecevo.

19 Q. Did you have any knowledge of the murders of Muslims in Bjelovac

20 at the beginning of May of 1992?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Could you briefly describe for the Chamber the situation?

23 A. In the vicinity of Bjelovac, next to the Drina, there was a site

24 where gravel was extracted, and two brothers of Muslim origin used to

25 extract bodies that were floating in the Drina, and I remember clearly

Page 11271

1 that Mujic Kiram was the first victim from Vlasovac, then Asim Redzic from

2 Srebrenica. He was taken there and killed. And he used to be a football

3 coach of the Guber team. Then Sahim [phoen], who was a police inspector,

4 as well as numerous others who were buried unidentified, some were buried

5 in Voljavica, for example, Redza [phoen], he was buried in Voljavica.

6 Q. I have a follow-up question, then.

7 In your knowledge, did the Serb population of Bjelovac know of

8 these murders?

9 A. Yes, absolutely. Some were even present when bodies were taken

10 out of the river and the murders usually took place at night.

11 Q. If a Serb inhabitant of Bjelovac would say that he didn't know of

12 any murders or expulsions of Muslims in May of 1992, that is early May,

13 would that be correct?

14 A. No.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Sellers?

16 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, prior to the witness answering the

17 question, I would state that that question is not a question that he's

18 capable, if a Serb did say that. I mean, there is a possibility a Serb

19 did say that and he wouldn't know.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: But it doesn't make a difference. I mean, the

21 question I think it is -- it's you know what the relevance of the question

22 is.

23 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, certainly, I do.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: So basically it's being put to the witness that he

25 needs to comment on what his conclusion would be as regards such an

Page 11272

1 allegation or such a statement forthcoming from a Serb.

2 MS. SELLERS: In the hypothetical, I would imagine.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Of course, he doesn't know who we are talking about.

4 Obviously he probably would be in a position to answer better if he knew

5 exactly who we are talking about because it does make a difference between

6 someone who just makes a statement simply because he happens to be a Serb

7 and someone who makes a statement who happens to be a Serb but also living

8 in the area during the time in question, who should be in a position to

9 know what happened and what did not.

10 But anyway, let's move. I mean, I think we are there. I mean, if

11 it's possible, Madam Vidovic will try and restrict her questions to what

12 is basically relevant. I didn't stop you as regards all these killings

13 because I knew where you were heading, but on the other hand, we don't

14 need to protect it unduly. Already, please do remember that.

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. Just to the extent

16 that relates to the credibility of the witnesses that testified as to this

17 topic.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: I know that, Ms. Vidovic. Go ahead.

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Could you explain how come the people from the area, including the

21 Serbs, knew of such information?

22 A. Every person that was killed had a last name. They lived in the

23 same area. They knew each other. Kiram Mujic was the first victim, and

24 he lived with his Serb neighbours. He was related to some of them and

25 some of them even came to his funeral. They knew that information.

Page 11273

1 People were living house to house. It couldn't be hidden.

2 Q. Thank you. To move on, can you remember what took place in the

3 first half of May of 1992 in your village?

4 A. Yes. The local SDS representatives from Pobrdje invited our local

5 commune representatives. They told them that weapons should be turned

6 over, including hunting rifles held by the people in Voljavica, and the

7 ultimatum stated the 11th of May for the handing over of the weapons and

8 that they had to appear personally.

9 Q. Did you do that?

10 A. Yes. Our people, the elderly in particular, thought that our

11 houses would be torched unless we did that. Perhaps some younger people

12 would refuse but we knew what happened in Hranca and Glogova and

13 Mihajlovici, but we obeyed what the elders said and some hunting rifles

14 from turned over as well as a couple of guns that had licences.

15 Q. Did you turn in your own weapon?

16 A. Yes. I turned over my semi-automatic rifle that I was given by

17 the police.

18 Q. Did anything take place on the 12th of May of 1992?

19 A. Yes. If you have Voljavica in mind?

20 Q. Yes, I do.

21 A. Right after the weapons were turned over, people started leaving

22 Voljavica en masse, moving towards Poloznik and Pirici. Voljavica is a

23 rather big place. Some people who still trusted Serbs, who worked with

24 them or were related to them, remained. But most of the people moved

25 towards other localities.

Page 11274












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Page 11275

1 Q. Your father, did he remain in the village or did he leave the

2 area?

3 A. We had a large number of cattle there at that time and he remained

4 behind to feed them. The rest of the family left the village.

5 Q. Where did you personally go?

6 A. I left with my mother and my brothers to Poloznik.

7 Q. Did you learn from anyone as to what happened in your village on

8 that day?

9 A. Yes. I learned that from my parent, from my father, who told me

10 that on the 12th of May, Voljavica was attacked from all directions, from

11 Pobrdje, from Tablja, and right on the spot, Avdo Ahmici was killed as

12 well as Sabet Sjosic [phoen]. He told me that the population was taken to

13 the bus station, put on buses that took them to Tuzla and Kladanj. A part

14 of the inhabitants managed to hide away, including my father, next to a

15 water utility facility, and they observed it all, and in three days later

16 they reached us and then at the they told us the story.

17 Q. Did your father tell you who attacked Voljavica? Were those

18 people from afar or did he know them?

19 A. My father told me very emotionally what happened. He recognised

20 many of the attackers, and other people who were telling me that story

21 were telling me the same.

22 Q. What did he say? Where did those people come from?

23 A. He recognised a lot of them, and he mainly said that those were

24 our neighbours from Pobrdje, Bjelovac and Sase.

25 Q. Did he tell you that the attack was organised or anything in that

Page 11276

1 sense?

2 A. Yes. He said that they had commanders who issued directions, who

3 were familiar with Voljavica and they told them which directions to take.

4 Q. Did he mention anyone in specific?

5 A. Yes. He was very surprised to see Slavoljub Rankic, aka Slavko.

6 He knew him well, as well as his father, Nedjo. They passed by close to

7 him with a group of people issuing orders. He told me that in that group,

8 there was Krsto Rankic as well. And he knew all of them very well. Then

9 Slavoljub Filipovic, all from Bjelovac. He mentioned some people from

10 Pobrdje, Sreten Ilic, Golub Lukic. I knew those people as well. Then

11 Radomir Ostojic, who was right -- who lived next to Voljavica.

12 Q. Could we please now show D83 to the witness? It is a list of the

13 Bjelovac TO, salaries paid for June of 1992.

14 Witness, please take a look at some names. Please turn to the

15 third page and the number is 01335441. At the top, it says, TO Bjelovac.

16 Please look at number 571, and the name there. Can you see that?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Krsto Rankic. Then 572, Slavko N. Rankic?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. 584, Slavoljub D. Filipovic?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Are these the people that your father mentioned to you as

23 participants of the attack?

24 A. Yes. He knew all of them and, if I may add, he said that Krsto

25 was very intoxicated and that he kept asking Slavko to let him join the

Page 11277

1 Bule and that was the name he used for the Muslim women.

2 Q. Slavko Rankic, does that person have some other name or is this a

3 short name?

4 A. His full name is Slavoljub Rankic but everyone called him Slavko.

5 Q. Thank you. Apart from the conversation you had with your father,

6 did you discuss this issue of the attackers against Voljavica with some

7 other people from Voljavica?

8 A. Yes. I spoke with my uncle, who is an elderly person, as well as

9 Camil Mehmedovic and many others. They all confirmed the same story

10 because they knew these Serbs from before.

11 Q. Did they tell you what they -- who they thought commanded the

12 attack?

13 A. They all kept mentioning Slavko Rankic as the commander or the

14 leader of the attack.

15 Q. Thank you.

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would kindly ask the usher to put

17 another document before the witness.

18 Q. This is a new document, the number is 01335456, TO Pobrdje,

19 salaries for June of 1992. The number is 01335456.

20 Witness, please take a look at this document. Please go to the

21 page that starts with TO Pobrdje and take a look at the number 1382.

22 Radomir Ostojic; can you see that?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Then number 1371, Sreten Ilic?

25 A. Yes.

Page 11278

1 Q. 1375, Golub Lukic. Are those the people your father mentioned as

2 the attackers in Voljavica on the 12th of May of 1992?

3 A. Yes. These are precisely the people and he knew them very well,

4 and I know them because they were our neighbours.

5 Q. Thank you.

6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please give this document

7 an exhibit number?

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Thank you, Madam Vidovic. Let me just ask a

9 couple of questions before I do. It will of course become Defence

10 Exhibit D759. But in order to be precise for the record, I see that the

11 first page as ERN number 01335404 and that is the front page of this

12 document. I'm referring to the original language, B/C/S. Then the next

13 page is 01335456. Then that page is followed by 01335457. Then I have a

14 next page which at least in the photocopy, and this is why I am putting a

15 question to you, in the photocopy that I have for the next page, and the

16 one following, I do not have an ERN number. I would take it that the

17 first of these is -- ends with 5458 and 5459 because the page immediately

18 following does have an ERN number and would complete the sequence as it

19 is 5460. So if you confirm to us that these two pages where we have the

20 photocopy without an ERN number are indeed pages with -- ending in 5458

21 and 5459, we can confirm that for the record. It's probably a problem of

22 photocopying more than anything else.

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours. I can confirm

24 that. It happens when we are printing that the number cannot be seen or

25 you can only see half the number. However, as you can see here, the

Page 11279

1 numbers that follow when you look at the order of the people, then it's

2 clear, whereas the first column during printing is also missing one

3 number, and a part of the next number. But this is something that is

4 really beyond our influence because we -- it was printed and then we

5 copied what we received.

6 These are large documents, for example, and they are entitled

7 personal salary for June 1992, and then there is a large group of units of

8 the Bratunac Brigade. We only take just the relevant parts. Otherwise we

9 would have to be providing you with very, very large documents, and then

10 the numbers actually go the way you mentioned it.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: I understand. I just wanted a confirmation that

12 those two pages which do not show an ERN number are indeed 5458 and 5459

13 and I think I'm satisfied, at least -- Judge Eser, are you satisfied too?

14 That we are satisfied that it is so.

15 So let's describe this new exhibit. In the original language it

16 consists of six pages. The first one ending in -- having ERN number

17 01335404, followed by five pages starting with 01335456 and ending in

18 5460, accompanied by three pages in English purporting to be translation

19 of the original documents. The totality is being tendered in evidence and

20 marked as Defence Exhibit D759. The corresponding English part would have

21 an E at the end.

22 Thank you. Let's proceed.

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Witness, could you please tell the Trial Chamber what happened

25 with the population, the Muslim population, that was expelled from the

Page 11280

1 villages that you mentioned, including Voljavica, after these events in

2 May 1992.

3 A. Yes. The expelled population was together in columns and they

4 sought shelter around the villages of Poloznik, Pirici and Lokva.

5 Q. Do you know where the Muslim population from Lasovac, Gradina and

6 Sase went?

7 A. Yes. They had -- they were together in a large column of people

8 in Loznik, in Bare, to be more precise. That's what that place was

9 called.

10 Q. And how many of them were there?

11 A. There were thousands of them there.

12 Q. And where did the expelled population of Voljavica, Zaluzje and

13 Biljaca concentrate?

14 A. These citizens got together in columns and went near the village

15 of Podloznik or at the location of Ljuljaska to be more precise.

16 Q. How many people were there in that column?

17 A. That was the largest group of people in that area, because these

18 were large Muslim villages. It was terrible to see those groups of people

19 in camps. They found it very hard to believe that they could get killed

20 just because they were Muslims, that their houses could be burned, that

21 they could be left with no property overnight. They had with them only

22 those things that they had taken with them from their homes. They were

23 afraid. They had small children. There was no water. They slept in the

24 open air and it was still cold in May there.

25 Q. How many of them were there at Ljuljaska?

Page 11281

1 A. You couldn't establish the exact number but it was approximately

2 up to 2.000 people. There were smaller such refugee camps also. There

3 was one in the area of the village of Pirici.

4 Q. And these groups of people, you described that they lived in very

5 difficult conditions, did they have any houses where they could take

6 shelter?

7 A. No. These were makeshift camps with housing made from trees,

8 branches, pieces of plastic, they spread leaves on the ground. It was

9 hard to conceive this in the 20th century that rich people would have to

10 leave their homes and then would be reduced to such living conditions.

11 Q. Besides the fact that they were living in such conditions and in

12 very difficult material conditions, were they able to live at least

13 peacefully, even though they were in such dire straits?

14 A. No. Immediately in May, these makeshift camps were shelled

15 intensely from Serb positions at Kunjarac, Jovanovici, and Sase. These

16 were powerful mortar shellings, and people did not have peace because of

17 this shelling. They even had to shelter small children in makeshift

18 trenches in order to protect themselves.

19 Q. Could you please tell us whether you yourself personally knew --

20 you mentioned these locations but what I want to ask you is the following:

21 How do you know that these makeshift camps were shelled from Kunjarac,

22 Sase, these places that you mentioned?

23 A. I know this very well. We went to the village of Bojeca [phoen]

24 very often with some other men, and we saw Bjelovac and we could see where

25 the smoke was coming from. We had an old set of hunting binoculars so we

Page 11282

1 were able to observe that through that.

2 Q. And these people, were they civilians, were they soldiers in these

3 makeshift camps?

4 A. They were all civilians. We didn't have an army.

5 Q. At some point, did a group of people form which managed to get

6 their hands on some weapons at some point? Now I'm talking about the

7 Muslims.

8 A. Yes. Us younger people felt that it was necessary to protect

9 these people from Voljavica, Bileca, Zaluzje, because there was a Serb

10 incursion into this makeshift camp where the Vlasovac citizens were, and

11 there was a massacre there. We had some hunting weapons and we received

12 some weapons from the Podloznik citizens because they joined us, so we

13 kind of made a line in front of our makeshift camp at Ljuljaska.

14 Q. At one point, did you leave that area?

15 A. Yes. There was hunger, the conditions were terrible. We found

16 out from some people from Stozerska that Srebrenica was liberated and that

17 perhaps the conditions, the living conditions, were better over there, so

18 we set off through Podloznik, Lokva, Petinici, Predola, Dimnici,

19 Skenderovici, Pribicevac towards Srebrenica, and a group of our people

20 went with us, who were in these makeshift camps. It was not possible to

21 stay in these camps any longer, so those who were braver amongst them came

22 with us and we set out in the direction of Srebrenica.

23 Q. You mentioned Skenderovici. Did you go through that location or

24 did you bypass it?

25 A. Skenderovici was a Muslim settlement but we had to pass by the

Page 11283

1 village of Pribicevac which was inhabited by Serbs. The pen is not

2 working. Where the Serbs were living. And that is where we were

3 attacked. We noticed --

4 Q. Just one moment, Witness. You will get a fresh pen.

5 A. I'm going to mark Pribicevac. This is where we were noticed

6 because it was a fairly large column. We were attacked. There were

7 wounded people. The trip took us all day because we went through the

8 woods, along creeks, and finally we managed to reach the Srebrenica area

9 above Crni Guber and to go down to Srebrenica itself.

10 Q. When you arrived at Srebrenica, do you remember what you saw

11 there?

12 A. Yes. We were all disappointed. We thought we would see what we

13 knew about Srebrenica before. However, Srebrenica was burned. The

14 mosques were demolished. It was a ghost town. You would see the odd

15 inhabitant wandering around. It was a catastrophic defeat for us, what we

16 saw in that town.

17 Q. Could you just tell us, do you remember when this was, what time,

18 which month?

19 A. It was mid-June, 1992. I'm speaking about 1992.

20 Q. At one point, you mentioned that a group of young people was

21 armed --

22 A. No, the whole group did not leave. There was a group of men who

23 formed the group at Pirici and they believed that they would be closer to

24 Biljaca. They stayed with Sadif Zukic. He was their leader. We set off.

25 We had our own leader, Osman Malagic. We set out towards Srebrenica. And

Page 11284












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Page 11285

1 then from there we went to Likari.

2 Q. [Microphone not activated].

3 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. At one point, when you came to Srebrenica, did you find out about

6 a group of your people from Voljavica somewhere near Srebrenica?

7 A. Yes. There was a young man who was in Hakija Meholjic's group in

8 Srebrenica and we found out at Likari, it's a village above Potocari,

9 there were some people from Voljavica who had managed to get to Srebrenica

10 earlier.

11 Q. And did you then go to Likari?

12 A. We weren't thinking for too long. We went to Likari right away.

13 We thought when we get there we would be closer to Voljavica and in that

14 way we would be able to take food from our houses and food stores.

15 Voljavica was a rich village so we had a lot of agricultural products

16 there.

17 Q. When you got to Likari, what was the situation that you found

18 there? What I want to ask you actually is the following, where Likari,

19 was Likari what inhabited place before the war?

20 A. Yes, Likari was a small but very nice settlement, very pretty.

21 When we got there, only two houses were intact. All the others were

22 burned.

23 Q. Before the war, was Likari a Muslim village?

24 A. Yes. Only Muslims lived in Likari.

25 Q. When you got there, were there any citizens there from Likari that

Page 11286

1 you saw there?

2 A. Very few. When we got there, we found people who had fled from

3 Potcaus while the inhabitants of Likari actually, the ones who survived

4 the attack on Likari had escaped towards Pecista, Gosti [phoen] and

5 Potocari in order to save themselves. I remember that they told us that

6 Serbs captured four women at that time, that they kept at Likari all the

7 time and they were systematically raped there, those four women.

8 Q. Just one moment. Let me ask you this. Now you're talking about

9 four raped women but what I want to ask you is: Did you find out who

10 attacked the village and when? When was the village of Likari burned,

11 attacked and now you're talking about rapes? Who told you that?

12 A. We knew about it. The inhabitants told us from Obadi and Likari

13 that they were attacked by Serbs from Obadi and Serbs from Zalazje because

14 these were villages near Likari.

15 Q. If I understood you properly, you came to Likari in mid-June 1992

16 with a group of people. Did your group have anyone that was leading it?

17 A. Yes. Our leader was Osman Malagic.

18 Q. When you got there, did you encounter this other group of people

19 and who led that group?

20 A. Yes. When we arrived, the first thing was we were disappointed.

21 We had come to the worst possible place and the most difficult line at the

22 time in Srebrenica, and we met a small group of people from Potcaus and

23 this group was led by a certain Naser Sabanovic. I remember the name

24 well.

25 Q. Why do you say that you came to the worst possible line in

Page 11287

1 Srebrenica?

2 A. We understood that Likari was a location or an elevation that was

3 very important to the Serbs but it was also important to our inhabitants

4 from Potocari, Gosti, and Pecista that they -- had they captured Likari,

5 none of those people could be living in those villages because that was

6 the highest elevation and they could fire at them. As long as they had

7 that elevation every house in Potocari was hit by at least ten times [as

8 interpreted] with artillery weapons. That is why that location was very

9 important and it was also constantly under attack.

10 Q. So you talked about two different groups, a group led by Osman

11 Malagic and another group led by Naser Sabanovic. Did these groups unite

12 at any point in time?

13 A. Yes. We joined together and we guarded Likari together.

14 Q. Could you please tell us who decided to join these two groups?

15 Did you do that or did some outside order come to this effect?

16 A. We joined together by ourselves. We knew each other. Some people

17 knew one another. We didn't need anybody to tell us. We joined together

18 on our own. And Naser Sabanovic remained to be the leader for the whole

19 of Likari because they had come earlier and they knew the terrain better

20 than we did.

21 Q. Do you remember whether in the second half of June of 1992 there

22 were attacks on Likari? And where did these attacks come from?

23 A. There were daily attacks on Likari. That is a story in itself.

24 Most frequently, the attacks would come from the direction of Obadi,

25 Zalazje and Sase.

Page 11288

1 Q. How do you know that the attacks came from Sase?

2 A. If you look on the map, you will see that Likari is on a large

3 plateau above those places and that you have a good of the view of the

4 roads towards Zalazje, Obadi, and you can also see Sase spread out below.

5 Q. That group that you were in, what kind of weapons did it have and

6 how many weapons?

7 A. Our group and this group were Potcaus had about 25 rifles

8 altogether, old hunting rifles -- weapons, some of the old M48s, and that

9 was it. We had very, very few weapons for such a dangerous region.

10 Q. Did you receive any assistance in ammunition, weapons and so on

11 from anyone up until early July 1992?

12 A. No. We never received any assistance in food or ammunition or

13 weapons.

14 Q. Do you remember whether or not in early July 1992 there were any

15 particularly intense attacks on Likari?

16 A. Yes. I remember the 2nd of July, I get always very emotional when

17 I talk about that attack. I almost died. Likari almost fell that time.

18 I remember that attack very well.

19 Q. Did you receive any assistance from anywhere on that occasion?

20 A. Yes. At the last minute, a group of fighters arrived from

21 Potocari, and it was only with their help that we managed to defend

22 Likari. We didn't have any more ammunition. I recall that I only had two

23 bullets left for my M48 repeat action rifle.

24 Q. Do you remember any people who were in that group of people from

25 Potocari?

Page 11289

1 A. Yes. I remember that Naser Oric was in that group of people.

2 Q. Other than this group from Potocari, did any other people come

3 there?

4 A. Yes. Since the attack lasted all day, a group from Srebrenica

5 came to help us. I remember that this group was led by Becir Bogilovic, a

6 police officer from Srebrenica. He was wounded in that attack. I

7 remember very well.

8 Q. And how was Naser Oric introduced to you or presented to you at

9 that time?

10 A. Naser did not introduce himself to us at Omerovic. We saw him

11 with a group of people from Potocari. In the course of the attack. He

12 was with them, amongst them, in front of them, a fighter like any other

13 fighter who was in Potocari.

14 Q. You also mentioned this group of people that had arrived from

15 Srebrenica. Was it your impression that Oric was commanding in any way,

16 that he was in charge of that group of people that came with Becir

17 Bogilovic as well?

18 A. No. He didn't command anyone. Everybody had their own group. We

19 were under the command of Osman Malagic. Becir had his own group.

20 Naser's group was brought from Potocari. There was no coordination at

21 all, once the attack started, you would look to find the best possible

22 shelter.

23 Q. And during this battle, did Oric coordinate the group? Did he

24 issue any instructions, orders or anything like that? Do you recall?

25 A. That was one of the fiercest battles. Nobody issued any

Page 11290

1 instructions at all. When a bullet made a parting in my hair, I was the

2 one who decided where I would hide. Had there been a mouse hole and there

3 were shells, I would have fled there. This is the time when personal

4 courage is demonstrated. Nobody listened to anyone else once the attack

5 really started and got underway.

6 Q. I understood that you did manage to defend Likari on that

7 occasion. Is that true?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. After that, did you have an opportunity to speak with Oric and, if

10 you did, did he explain why he had come there?

11 A. After the battle, all the fighters got together. There were dead.

12 We were discussing who had been killed, who had been wounded, and I

13 remember that Naser said that they had heard a powerful or loud shooting

14 and shelling in Potocari. I mean, you can hear that and they understood

15 that Likari would fall and that is why they came to help us.

16 Q. At the time, did you, in Likari, and these people that you saw

17 there, did you have uniforms?

18 A. No. I was wearing jeans and a reserve police forces jacket, and

19 we had civilian clothing, a shirt and so on.

20 Q. I wanted to ask you one more question about Oric. At any point in

21 time, do you remember seeing Oric ordering Osman or Becir or issuing

22 instructions to them?

23 A. No. He didn't issue orders to anyone. After the attack, they

24 simply returned to Potocari, Becir returned to Srebrenica, and we stayed

25 at Likari. So nobody issued any orders to anyone.

Page 11291

1 Q. Now we are talking about July 1992. Did you hear that in May 1992

2 there was a meeting of some kind in Bajramovici, where a staff was elected

3 to be in command of all the armed forces in Srebrenica?

4 A. No, I never heard of anything like that.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Sellers.

6 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I would just ask that some caution be

7 exercised because these are issues quite relevant to the indictment, to

8 the case. And I do believe that we do have an amount of leading here.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I agree 100 per cent with you, Ms. Sellers. In

10 any case, the witness has answered that he's not aware of such a meeting.

11 So ...

12 Yes, Madam Vidovic, please your discretion. You don't need

13 lecturing from me. Certain questions when it comes to pivotal matters,

14 try not to lead. Thank you.

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, in order to get a

16 negative response or to get a response, I had to ask this question but I

17 will rephrase it.

18 Q. Witness, please, before you talked with me, did you ever hear

19 about a meeting in Bajramovici before?

20 A. No, never. This is the first time that I'm hearing about it. I

21 don't know anything about a meeting in Bajramovici.

22 Q. Were you very close to Osman Malagic?

23 A. Yes. I was one of his closest associates. He was also my cousin.

24 I was amongst the people who were very close to Osman Malagic.

25 Q. Did he ever mention a meeting in Bajramovici to you?

Page 11292

1 A. No, never. Had he known about it, I would have known about it for

2 sure.

3 Q. From your testimony, I understood that until mid-June 1992, you

4 were in Pirici, in the Pirici and Podloznik region?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Is this true?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. In that period, did you ever hear from those people there mention

9 Bajramovici in the context of that meeting?

10 A. No, I never heard anything like that. The most important thing

11 for us was to survive and to find food.

12 Q. I would like to ask you something about the groups of people you

13 mentioned. The group at Pirici and the group you mentioned as headed by

14 Osman Malagic, and the group brought along with Naser. What did you used

15 to call them, those groups? Did you use military terminology?

16 Designations of establishment? In that period in July of 1992 and for the

17 rest of 1992, what did you used to call those groups?

18 A. People who stayed in Srebrenica, we called them Hakija's men or

19 Akif's men. The people from Potocari, Naser's men. We were called

20 Osman's guys. We were all young. Or the people of Osmace, of Podloznik

21 and so on and so forth. No military terminology was used.

22 Q. To move on to a different topic, how long did you stay at Likari

23 personally?

24 A. Until the 14th of December of 1992, to be precise.

25 Q. During that period, did your group have any contact with Oric's

Page 11293

1 group from Potocari?

2 A. No. Just in case of fierce attacks. They would come to our aid.

3 Otherwise, there were no other contacts.

4 Q. Between July of 1992 and December 1992, did that happen on one or

5 two occasions or more often, if you could tell the Chamber?

6 A. There were several strong attacks against Likari and people had to

7 come at least five or six times, otherwise we would not have been able to

8 defend it ourselves. And other people came as well, not only from

9 Potocari but from Kazani, for example. They all knew we needed help.

10 Q. What was the role of Mr. --

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Just to try and understand better, Kazani, where is

12 it exactly? I don't think it has been marked already on the map. If the

13 witness can show it to us.

14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Yes?

16 A. Kazani is here on the outskirts of Srebrenica.

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

18 Q. Witness, could you just write the name of Kazani, if it's not

19 there?

20 JUDGE AGIUS: It is there. It's very small print. Barely

21 visible. But it is there. Judge Eser would like to put -- sorry, Madam

22 Vidovic. Judge Eser would like to put a question.

23 JUDGE ESER: I just have an additional question with regard to

24 Likari. Likari is written here in the map in a way that it seems to

25 indicate a mountain region, was there a special place in Likari where you

Page 11294












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Page 11295

1 were stationed? Because on the map it's not possible to identify the

2 location of Likari. Could you perhaps clarify a little bit where you have

3 been stationed with your group?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Likari is on a plateau. You

5 can see here these are the houses marking the settlement. We were located

6 towards Obadi. There were lines around the houses because we spent our

7 time in the houses, and we were at the Zanik hill as well. That's where

8 our positions were. And Likari was then behind our back. And that's

9 where we would spend the night.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Zanik is also shown on the map, making it -- if you

11 can mark it, please.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I will circle it again. Zanik is

13 the highest hill in the Likari region.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Before I hand you back to Madam Vidovic, you've

15 described Likari as situated on a plateau. Is there a town or a village

16 which is also in the area and on this plateau that is known by the name of

17 Likari? Or is it just the area that is referred to as Likari?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. There was a settlement by the

19 name of Likari of about 20 houses. During the attacks of May, they were

20 torched. Only two houses remained intact, which we could use to spend our

21 time in. It used to be a very pretty place.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: And this is why I'm asking you because you described

23 it already as a very pretty place. And if you look at the map,

24 Mr. Malagic, just beneath the L and the I, the first two letters of

25 Likari, there is a tiny circle there.

Page 11296

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Would that indicate this small hamlet of a few

3 houses which was referred to by the name of Likari? Or would it indicate

4 something else?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. We have the same thing in mind.

6 The small circle that you indicated is blue. This is Knjesavica [phoen],

7 a river that flows through Potocari. The settlement of Likari is up

8 above, close to A. You can see a few houses there, the black spots.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. Madam Vidovic, let's proceed.

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, just to clarify

11 something with the witness.

12 Q. Judge Eser asked the following question: Where were you

13 accommodated in Likari? And I wanted to ask you the following: Did you

14 have accommodation? Did you have disposition in your lines or did you go

15 there by yourselves?

16 A. I said earlier that we went from Srebrenica to Likari by

17 ourselves. Nobody told us, Go up there and keep the line. You can see

18 where Voljavica is or where Likari is. We thought that we could go

19 through the woods to reach Voljavica to get some food out.

20 Q. Another question concerning this topic, the group you met there,

21 did anyone put that group there in your knowledge or were they

22 self-organised?

23 A. That group was from Potcaus which was a hill up above Bratunac.

24 When they were attacked, the closest settlement to them was Likari, and

25 that's where they found some shelter.

Page 11297

1 Q. You said that Mr. Oric came to that area on several occasions.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. What was his behaviour like during those attacks? To ask you

4 again, was he issuing instructions? What was he behaving like?

5 A. He was ahead [Realtime transcript read in error "a head"] of his

6 people from Potocari.

7 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, excuse me.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Sellers.

9 MS. SELLERS: I wanted to stop before the witness completed the

10 answer, and that would be an example that I say is getting too close to

11 leading, what was his behaviour like, was he ordering. Let the witness

12 answer what was his behaviour like, let's not suggest it. Thank you.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, thank you, Madam Sellers. Doesn't really make

14 much difference in my opinion. I mean, I don't see much difference

15 between the question as asked and your suggestion, but --

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As I explained already, when I was

17 describing the attack of the 2nd of July, every time they came, Naser was

18 ahead of them. Otherwise there were no instructions. Those were heavy

19 shellings and everyone tried to find the best shelter. People were being

20 killed there.

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Did you receive any logistical support from the people of

23 Potocari?

24 A. They didn't have any support and we didn't expect anyone to give

25 us anything.

Page 11298

1 Q. To move on to a different topic, between July of 1992 and further,

2 did you have any knowledge as to what was happening with the Muslim

3 population of Voljavica, Zaluzje, Biljaca and other Muslim villages in the

4 area?

5 A. Yes. We had quite a lot of knowledge because the families of some

6 of our men stayed in the area of -- and Podloznik with the refugees, and

7 we know what they were going through, that they were short of food and

8 that the conditions were very bad.

9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] In line 13, the transcript states

10 that the witness said that he was ahead of his people in Potocari but the

11 witness meant something different. He meant ahead in the -- in combat.

12 Q. Could the witness please clarify?

13 A. Each of our leaders, including Naser for his Potocari group and

14 Osman Malagic, who was the leader of our group, was in front of us.

15 Otherwise they couldn't be the leader. So Naser was in front of his

16 Potocari people. Osman was in front of us.

17 Q. What does that mean? He was fighting in front of us?

18 A. Yes. His behaviour was important for other fighters to see.

19 MS. SELLERS: I do not mean to interrupt you, Mr. Malagic, but I

20 would just like the witness to answer the question without a suggestion

21 following what does it mean that he was ahead so we could be enlightened

22 by your answer, sir.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: At this stage, you are encountering opposition --

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that previously.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment.

Page 11299

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you remember.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Malagic, one moment. Madam Vidovic, we try to

3 stick to the practice that we have adopted, that as long as you don't

4 encounter opposition from the Prosecution, you can fire leading questions.

5 When you do encounter opposition, let's stick to the normal rules of -- on

6 not -- not resorting to leading question or making suggestion to the

7 witness. I leave this entirely in your hands.

8 And, Ms. Sellers, whenever you wish to object to the way a

9 question is being put to the witness, please draw our attention and we'll

10 decide accordingly.

11 All right. I think the rules -- we know what the rules of the

12 game, if I can call them that, are. As far as this trial goes. And let's

13 try and stick to them. Yes.

14 MR. JONES: If I may just say one thing. One is just that with

15 that -- the last correction, because in English you have a head of the

16 people and ahead --

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I know.

18 MR. JONES: That's why the clarification.

19 As for leading, I did wonder whether at least the practice was

20 followed that if you need to elicit a denial that you're allowed to put a

21 leading question. So that if it's the case the Prosecution that Oric was

22 issuing orders one of course can say was he issuing orders, otherwise

23 there is no way to get the denial.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: I certainly did not mean to exclude such questions

25 being put. We are used to the same procedure, you and I.

Page 11300

1 MR. JONES: Thank you.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: But it's -- the other part, the transcript, yes, it

3 says, a head, it says, if there is an article and a noun but I had

4 understood it as being ahead meaning in front of. That's how I understood

5 it. In fact, I don't watch the transcript all the time as we go along

6 because I have other responsibilities like watching everyone else in the

7 courtroom. So please, when there is something like that, do draw our

8 attention because sometimes it is important and we need to take notice of

9 it. Thanks.

10 Madam Vidovic.

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Witness, you described the suffering of the Muslim population of

13 the area. Does the word Predola mean anything to you?

14 A. Yes. Predola is a place where Muslims used to live. It had an

15 elementary school with only two classrooms. A lot of refugees assembled

16 there, refugees from our region. And in the classrooms there were usually

17 children. They spent the night there whilst adults were slope outside.

18 They had some water there as well. They could use it for washing or

19 cooking.

20 Q. These refugee camps and groups in Predola itself, did such a

21 situation continue until the 14th of September of 1992, that is in winter

22 conditions as well?

23 A. Yes. The situation persisted until the 14th of December. For all

24 those months people slept outside in makeshift camps without food or any

25 conditions [as interpreted].

Page 11301

1 Q. Could you tell the Chamber what the consequences were for those

2 people?

3 A. Catastrophic. They were sick often. There was no medical

4 attention. The elderly could not survive that. Most of them died. Then

5 the rains came and occasionally some of the local inhabitants would take

6 them in until the rain would stop. And then there was no food. People

7 tried to reach their previous settlements to get some.

8 Q. Could you see the Muslims moving about the area in search of food?

9 A. Yes. We saw that on a daily basis. They moved below Likari

10 through the woods towards Voljavica, Zaluzje, and they would bring back

11 corn and whatever they could find.

12 Q. Concerning this, I wanted to ask you the following: Was there

13 something unusual at that time to see a line, a column of 1.000 people

14 searching for food in that area?

15 A. No. It was a regular sight that we saw daily. We saw their

16 suffering. It was a very difficult route to travel and they didn't know

17 who would survive it and who wouldn't.

18 Q. I would kindly ask the usher to put a new document before the

19 witness.

20 This is a document by the command of the eastern Bosnian corps of

21 the 28th of July of 1992.

22 Active effect, order to all units. Quoting: "The order was

23 issued by commander Colonel Dragutin Ilic on the 28th of July."

24 Quoting: "All units are to set up ambushes on a daily basis and

25 to have incursions in -- among enemy lines and to introduce sabotage

Page 11302

1 groups in order to inflict casualties and cut off communication of enemy

2 movement. And daily reports, the tasks carried out should be reported.

3 All units within their zones should conduct cutting off of all enemy

4 communications."

5 Mr. Malagic, it is stated here on the 28th of July that enemy

6 lines or communications should be broken. Do you remember that area or

7 that period? What was really taking place?

8 A. During that time, our people, who -- that went in search of food

9 constantly came on ambushes. There were people being killed and wounded

10 or captured. We tried to warn them but one couldn't stop a hungry person

11 looking for food.

12 Q. Hence this pattern of ambushes. Was it widespread in the area

13 that you are mentioning?

14 A. Yes. It was very widespread and I can give you the names of

15 people who disappeared because of these ambushes.

16 Q. Thank you. I wanted to ask you the following. In July of 1992,

17 did you know of the existence of the east Bosnian corps? Could you please

18 responds with yes or no?

19 A. Yes, we did.

20 Q. If you remember, when you came to Likari, did you find an

21 apparatus there?

22 A. Yes, an old radio station.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated].

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, thank you. Could

25 we please give it an exhibit number?

Page 11303

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, before we move to something else, this document

2 which consists of two pages, one in the original language, having ERN

3 number 0438203 -- says if it's O and the corresponding translation into

4 English is being tendered and received as a Defence Exhibit and marked as

5 Defence Exhibit D760.

6 Yes. Sorry for interrupting you. The question to you,

7 Mr. Malagic, was if you remember when you arrived in Likari whether you

8 found an apparatus there, and you answered -- or you had just started

9 giving your answer by saying, yes, an old radio station. As it is -- as

10 it shows in the transcript. I don't know if it was a station or whether

11 it was just a radio transmitter. Perhaps you can explain.

12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. He said a radio device.

13 Q. Witness, could you describe specifically the device?

14 A. When we came to Likari we were shown this by the people who came

15 there before us. I believe they brought it from Srebrenica, from the

16 police station. It was broken. It could receive but couldn't transmit.

17 So they used it to listen in on conversations of the local Serb units in

18 that area of Likari. That's how we learned of the eastern Bosnian corps

19 because it had frequent contact with the garrison in Bratunac.

20 Q. Did you personally spend some time next to the device?

21 A. Yes, often. Whenever I was not in the trenches I was present

22 there because it was interesting to listen to the conversations.

23 Q. Were you in a situation to overhear some data pertaining to Serb

24 formations, apart from the eastern Bosnian corps?

25 A. Yes. We were listening to the communication of the local units

Page 11304












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13 English transcripts.













Page 11305

1 from Andrici, Pobrdje, Bjelovac, Kunjarac. They discussed issues openly

2 because they thought we couldn't hear. They didn't use any encryption,

3 and we always listened to their conversations.

4 Q. Did the device have several channels?

5 A. Yes, it had several frequencies. Some of the frequencies used in

6 encryption, we couldn't understand that but as for the other channels that

7 we could hear, we could listen to their daily contacts from their

8 positions, Bjelovac, Kunjarac, Pobrdje and Sase. That's what we

9 overheard.

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I am about to move to a

11 different topic, and if we may have a break now.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, before we do. I thank you for that. Perhaps

13 he can explain two things on this subject.

14 Are you in a position, considering your training in the army, to

15 tell us what was the make of the radio and the model? That's number one.

16 And secondly, how was it powered at this time? These are the two

17 questions that I have for you.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. It was made by Iskra which

19 used to be a Slovenian company in the former Yugoslavia, usually used by

20 the police administration to communicate with their patrols.

21 As for the battery, we had an old car battery that soon died out

22 and then some of the people remembered to create mini-generator plants

23 using the flow of the water. We used an electrical engine. And the wheel

24 was moved by the stream creating enough electricity to make the device

25 work.

Page 11306

1 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you.

2 We'll have a 25-minute break starting from now. Thank you.

3 --- Recess taken at 12.27 p.m.

4 --- On resuming at 1.02 p.m.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Sellers.

6 MS. SELLERS: Thank you, Your Honours. The Prosecution would like

7 to bring up an issue related to some of the recent motion filings. We

8 would probably need more than three or four minutes in private session. I

9 just ask the Trial Chamber whether they would like to do that at the close

10 of today's session so that Madam Vidovic could continue as opposed to the

11 beginning.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, I would suggest that we leave everything until

13 the end. Also I need about one minute, maximum two minutes, to provide on

14 a matter that we discussed in closed -- in private session this morning,

15 just a temporary order pending the outcome of what we are expecting.

16 Yes, so let's finish ten minutes before quarter to 2.00, and then

17 we will use the last few minutes to deal with these matters, all right?

18 MS. SELLERS: Thank you, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Thanks. Madam Vidovic.

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

21 Q. Witness, we talked about the device and we also talked about

22 whether you had heard any communications regarding Serb formations. Do

23 you remember such communications coming through that device?

24 A. Yes. I remember well. They communicated often from Pobrdje and

25 the communication was between Dragolub Lukic, Dragan Ilic from Bjelovac.

Page 11307

1 We often heard communications between Sreten Petrovic. He would report

2 from Spat first. And then also from Sase.

3 Those are the communications that I remember best because they

4 were of interest particularly to us in that area.

5 Q. Thank you very much.

6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would now like the usher to show

7 the witness a new document. It's a document 004358251. A document by the

8 Bratunac garrison command dated 12 October 1992. The document is called

9 decision on appointment. I would like to read it to the witness: "I

10 hereby appoint Dragan, son of Ivko, Ilic as commander of the first platoon

11 of the Bjelovac company." So the Bratunac garrison command is appointing

12 Ivko Ilic as commander of the first platoon of the Bjelovac company and

13 asks that the order be executed immediately.

14 Q. Witness, could you please look at this document and tell us

15 whether Dragan Ilic was a person whose communications you had heard with

16 Dragolub Lukic? Did you know Dragan Ilic at all?

17 A. Yes. I'm sure that it's the same person because at one time we

18 heard Dragolub Lukic congratulating him on the appointment through this

19 radio communication, and I knew Dragan Ilic slightly. I knew his father

20 much better. His father was a bus driver on the route that we travelled

21 on quite a lot.

22 Q. And on what basis did you conclude that it was Dragan Ilic who was

23 being talked about?

24 A. Dragan Lukic congratulated him, this command appointment, when

25 they were talking. They were not trying to conceal their names at all.

Page 11308

1 Dragan, Dragolub, and so on.

2 Q. Was there anybody around you who knew him better?

3 A. Yes. There was Juso Cvrk from our group who used to go to school

4 with Dragan, and he -- we always called him to listen when he was talking.

5 He liked to listen to Dragan when he was talking.

6 Q. Thank you very much.

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could this document be

8 given an exhibit number, please?

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. This document, which consists of two pages,

10 one in Serbo-Croat and the other one purportedly the English translation

11 thereof, is being tendered and received as Defence Exhibit number D761.

12 The Trial Chamber, however, points out that while on the B/C/S version the

13 ERN number is 04358251, at the left bottom section of the English

14 translation, the ERN number is erroneously indicated as being -- as ending

15 with the four digits 9251. And then there is another four -- there are

16 another four numbers, 9118/HMH. This anyway is document 761, D761. We

17 don't need to bother any further with the discrepancy that there is.

18 Yes.

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour, for the

20 clarification.

21 Q. Witness, I would now like you to look at a new document.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the usher please show the

23 witness a new document? It's a document of the Bratunac garrison command,

24 dated the 14th of August 1992, bearing the number 04358235. It's also an

25 order.

Page 11309

1 The Bratunac garrison command, on the 14th of August 1992, states

2 the following: The -- I'm ordering the Bjelovac company to hold the

3 positions in Bjelovac every day, organise a duty team by day and by night

4 on the bridge in Bjelovac and secure the road towards Kunjarac as well as

5 the bunker at the crossroads to Kunjarac and Kovacevici. The commander of

6 the Bjelovac TO company and the platoon commanders are responsible for

7 carrying out this task.

8 Q. Witness, could you please comment on this document? Do the

9 contents of this document mean anything to you?

10 A. Yes. The contents mean a lot. While listening in to their

11 communications, we knew about this problem that they had. They were

12 frequently criticised by the garrison command because they were not

13 holding the bridge in Bjelovac as well as this bunker that was important

14 to them and that was on the road towards Kunjarac. Later they captured

15 the bunker but it was important to our people who were going towards

16 Biljaca for the food because it was controlling this road along which

17 people had to pass.

18 Q. Thank you very much.

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could this document be

20 given an exhibit number, please?

21 JUDGE AGIUS: This document, which consists of two pages, the

22 original in Serbo-Croat, bearing ERN number 04358235, the corresponding

23 translation into English being the second page being tendered as Defence

24 Exhibit and marked D762.

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could the witness

Page 11310

1 please be shown the next document? That's document -- another document by

2 the Bratunac garrison command dated 11th of October, 1992. It

3 states: Based on necessity and with the aim of performing combat

4 activities and implementing the planned tasks, I order, item 1, carry out

5 preparations to lift the Tomica hill, Andrici. Units to be activated are

6 the Pobrdje company, the Red Beret Platoon and the Sase detachment.

7 Persons responsible for implementing this task is first class captain

8 Jovan Zivanovic."

9 Could you please look at item 2 as well, which says: "To perform

10 blocking of the Kunjerac-Kostanovice-Andrici line, units which should be

11 activated are the Mostanice company 1, Kostanovice first platoon and

12 Andrici platoon. Responsible persons for fulfilling this task are Angel

13 Andjelko Obrenovic and Sreten Petrovic.

14 I would now like to ask you also about the communications that you

15 monitored over the radio device.

16 In October, at this time, in mid-October 1992, did you know of the

17 existence of the Pobrdje company, the Red Beret platoon, and the Sase

18 detachment.

19 A. Yes. We knew about the formations that existed at those

20 locations.

21 Q. How did you know this?

22 A. We knew about that based on their communications. And also during

23 our reconnaissance activities, we could see from neighbouring elevations

24 where the mortars were located at Sase, Andrici and all of these other

25 locations.

Page 11311

1 Q. Could you please pay particular attention to item 2 of this order,

2 which states: "To carry out the blocking of the

3 Kunjerac-Kostanovice-Andrici line, the units which should be activated as

4 Mostanice company, Kostanovice first platoon and Andrici platoon. The

5 responsible persons for fulfilling this task are Andjelko Obrenovic and

6 Sreten Petrovic."

7 Is Sreten Petrovic the person you said was calling from Sase?

8 A. Yes, yes. He very frequently was the one who was calling from

9 Sase.

10 Q. And in relation to this I want to ask you the following: Is there

11 any information or do you have any information or not whether in October

12 1992 the Kunjerac-Kostanovice-Andrici line was actually closed?

13 A. Yes. In that period, they did manage to close that line.

14 Q. Could you please show this to the Trial Chamber, if you have the

15 map in front of you?

16 A. Kunjarac was not put here on the map.

17 Q. Could you please tell us whether this is not part of Bjelovac?

18 A. Yes. That is it a hill above Bjelovac. The line cut the road

19 from Kostanovice and Andrici. Andrici is not here, but it's between Obadi

20 and Kostanovice, so that complete line was closed. And it made it more

21 difficult for our civilians to get food, especially to go -- going from

22 the villages which were going down to Biljaca. They couldn't approach

23 that area and also a stronger ring was placed around Likari.

24 Q. Thank you very much.

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could this document be

Page 11312

1 given an exhibit number?

2 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So this document, which consists of two

3 pages, bearing in the original format, ERN number 04358245, one page in

4 Serbo-Croat and one corresponding translation page in English, is being

5 received and marked as Defence Exhibit D763.

6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the usher please show the

7 witness Defence Exhibit D256?

8 Q. This is a list of the 2nd Battalion. It's their salary list for

9 the month of December. Witness, could you please look through the

10 document and then turn to the last page, which bears the number 01320830.

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, that is page 18, also

12 the last page in the English version.

13 Q. Witness, have you found this part on the last page where it

14 states, recapitulation?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Could you please look at what it says underneath that? It says

17 recapitulation, payment for soldiers of the 2nd Infantry Battalion for

18 December 1992, and, look, it says battalion command, detachment I Jelav,

19 detachment II Pobrdje, Drina detachment III, accompanying squad-mortar

20 reconnaissance, and then it says, total 502 soldiers.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Please, could you comment on this recapitulation or summary? Did

23 you hear of the existence of these units before December 1992 or not?

24 A. Yes. We did hear of all of these units through the

25 communications. These are units from the local regions. Pobrdje, and

Page 11313

1 Drinska, and companies were made in that area, and these are the same

2 units that attacked Voljavica, Zaluzje, Biljaca, at the beginning, except

3 that at the time they were called the TO units of a certain place, Jelav,

4 Pobrdje, and so on, and then they had grown into proper companies and they

5 had an accompanying mortar squad.

6 Q. Now I would like to ask you a question in relation to that. When

7 we are talking about mortars, did you hear anything through the radio

8 about that?

9 A. We constantly listened about the mortars, because they were always

10 asking for mortar support over the radio. This helped us a lot to be able

11 to seek shelter or move away whenever they asked for support.

12 Q. Thank you. Could you please now look at page 013208220? That's

13 page 8 in English. It's also page 8. Have you found it?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Could you look at the bottom of the page where it states squad

16 from Kunjarac, and under 91 it says Andjelko Obrenovic, squad commander,

17 Kunjarac squad.

18 My question is: Did you hear of this person before? Did you know

19 this person?

20 A. Yes. Andjelko Obrenovic was my maths teacher. He was born in

21 Pobrdje. He worked in Bratunac. Later he started working in the

22 elementary school in Voljavica.

23 Q. Did you know his voice?

24 A. Yes, I knew his voice very well.

25 Q. Was it his voice that you heard in the communications in the

Page 11314












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13 English transcripts.













Page 11315

1 course of October, November and December 1992?

2 A. Yes, I heard his voice many times in that period. I knew his

3 voice very well.

4 Q. Thank you. Could you please look at page 16 now? In the English

5 version it's also page 16. It bears the number 01320828. And if you look

6 at the top of the page, you can see that it states here: "Reconnaissance

7 platoon" and underneath it says Bosko Neskovic. Did you hear anything

8 about this in the communications that you were monitoring?

9 A. Yes. We heard of Neskovic. They always said, can Crveni respond?

10 He was called by the name Crveni, red. And he was very important to them

11 because there were reservoirs for the local water supply there in

12 Bratunac, and that's why Crveni had special units there at Kunjarac.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Ms. Vidovic. I notice that in the

14 transcript, the words reconnaissance platoon were used. In the document

15 itself, we have reconnaissance squad, and then brackets, red and Perica.

16 I'm raising this because you yourself have raised the matter in the past.

17 You don't agree that the words platoon and squad ought to be used as

18 meaning the same thing. And the second thing is -- in other words whether

19 you accept that this was a platoon as translated to us during the

20 interpretation.

21 Second, what's the meaning of that Perica?

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Witness, please, the witness is better versed in these military

24 questions and that's why I will ask him. Do you agree that in this

25 document it says [B/C/S spoken], reconnaissance platoon?

Page 11316

1 A. Yes.

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the word is squad,

3 according to how I understand it. "Vod" in B/C/S is platoon. In the

4 original the words are [B/C/S spoken] vod.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm raising the matter. To us the only significance

6 of all this is that in the past you have raised this distinction or

7 pointed at this distinction between a squad and a platoon, and perhaps you

8 can tell us exactly whether we are to accept platoon or whether we are to

9 ignore the translation into squad as it appears on the document itself, in

10 the English version of the document.

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we insist always that

12 the word be translated the way it is in the Bosnian original. Sometimes

13 the word "vod" is used and sometimes the word "odeljenje." In this case,

14 in this document, the word used is "vod" so you cannot mix these two

15 things simply.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: And according to you --

17 MR. JONES: I think --

18 JUDGE AGIUS: What does it mean according to you.

19 MR. JONES: And to be perfectly honest, offhand I can't remember

20 whether "vod" is platoon or squad. I think "vod" is platoon and

21 "odeljenje" is squad, in which case it should be correctly translated as

22 it has been on the transcript as platoon. And this exhibit would need to

23 be corrected to that extent.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you, Mr. Jones.

25 And Perica, what does Perica mean?

Page 11317

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Witness, could you please help us whether Perica is a formation or

3 something? Do you have any information about that?

4 A. No. Perica was a man who was contacting with Crveni from

5 Kunjarac. So he would frequently pick up when they talked with the

6 Bratunac garrison. Sometimes they would ask for Perica and sometimes they

7 would ask for Crveni.

8 Q. Actually, in our language, the word "Perica" signifies a name,

9 Petar or Perica. It's a name.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment.

11 JUDGE ESER: And what means "red" in this context? Is it

12 indicating a colour or also a person or some unit or whatever?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Crveni was a unit that was stationed

14 in that area. The reconnaissance platoon had a code name, a symbolic

15 name, Crveni, Reds, that's the name they gave themselves.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Yes, Madam Vidovic. Please go ahead.

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Were these the terms that you heard during these radio

19 communications, just to clarify that?

20 A. Yes. These were the terms that they used.

21 Q. All right.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the usher please show the

23 witness another document now? It's number 0436999, and it's a document by

24 the Bratunac garrison command of the 11th of October, 1992, sent to the

25 Birac Brigade, to the command of the Birac Brigade. Could you please look

Page 11318

1 at this document and focus on items 1, 2 and 3 of the document? I'm going

2 to read item 1 to you. "Together with the forces from Kravica, we have

3 laid strong ambushes in order to prevent fresh forces from Srebrenica from

4 being brought into battle. In the course of today, the

5 Voljavica-Pobrdje-Andrici line was moved, and we have joined up with the

6 forces from Sase. In this way, we have considerably shortened the front

7 line. We are also setting up the Bratunac-Glogova line at the

8 Kaolin-Ladja, elevation 488, on positions Vresje [phoen], trig point 532,

9 together with the Kravica forces. We have established communications

10 according to the Kravica plan."

11 I would like to ask the following based on that document: Did you

12 have information about coordinated action between the forces from Kravica

13 and these forces that you described a little bit earlier, in order to move

14 the Voljavica-Pobrdje-Andrici line and its joining together with the Sase

15 forces? But I would like to ask you just to give a little more time

16 before you begin answering so that the interpreters could translate until

17 the end. And you can reply now.

18 A. As soon as you heard the name of Jolje, Nikolic, Jovan being

19 mentioned over the communications, we knew that these units were Kravica

20 were helping these units in Pobrdje and that in joint action with them

21 they were moving these lines towards Likari. By moving this line, the

22 front towards Srebrenica became even tighter. Actually towards Likari,

23 because Likari was the entry point to Srebrenica. And the departure of --

24 or actually, the forages of our civilians for food were becoming more and

25 more difficult.

Page 11319

1 Q. I would just like to ask you the following: This movement of the

2 Serb lines, Voljavica, Pobrdje, Andrici and joining together with the Sase

3 forces, did this actually happen?

4 A. Yes. This report fully reflects the situation in the field.

5 Q. Thank you.

6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could this document be

7 given an exhibit number, please?

8 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated].

9 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: The document that the Defence seeks to tender

11 consists of one page in B/C/S which bears ERN number 04336999 and the

12 corresponding translation into English which appears in two pages. The

13 Trial Chamber points out, in case the Defence wishes to make any comments,

14 that on the original B/C/S version, on the right-hand side of the

15 document, there is an indication that this is a telegram or a telex. This

16 does not -- is not reflected in the English translation. Also, in the

17 original, just beneath the stamp, there are some words and a circle -- and

18 a square which seem to be handwritten. I don't know what they mean but

19 there is no corresponding entry in the English version. And also, in the

20 original document, the bottom are the words [B/C/S spoken]. And this is

21 also not repeated in the English version. In case any of this has any

22 important -- importance for you, please feel free to make your comments.

23 The document will be -- is being received and marked as Defence

24 Exhibit D764. If the points that I raised are of any significance to you,

25 please go ahead. If not, let's proceed with the next question.

Page 11320

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, these are official

2 translations. Thank you for pointing it out, and in the future I will pay

3 attention to such details because it came from the official translation

4 service, and it seems we need to check as to whether everything is

5 contained in the translation. But this issue was not directly relevant to

6 us. I guess we have given an exhibit number to this document already.

7 Q. Witness, I wanted to ask you the following: Up until now, you

8 have been describing the events until mid-October 1992 and the military

9 situation in the field as you witnessed it or overheard it via radio

10 communication. After mid-October of 1992, were there any other military

11 activities in the -- in your area that you can remember?

12 A. Yes. I particularly remember that listening to their

13 communication we learned of a strong offensive that was to be launched

14 against Pirici and Poloznik, and there was a high concentration of our

15 refugees there. We tried to tell that to the people there, as well as to

16 Salihovic Midhat who was there with his group. We sent one lad who wanted

17 to go there himself. His name was Samir Omerovic and his family was there

18 somewhere, but unfortunately during those activities he was killed.

19 Q. Thank you. I would kindly ask the usher to put a new document

20 before the witness.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: In the meantime, let's give this a number,

22 Ms. Vidovic. This last document that has been made use of by the Defence

23 consisting of, in the original language, one page with ERN number 04336995

24 and the corresponding translation into English is being tendered received

25 and marked as Defence Exhibit D765.

Page 11321

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Witness, you have the document before you?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Please take a look at it. This is a document from the garrison

5 command of Bratunac from the 13th of November of 1992. It is stated

6 during the day, from 9.00 onwards an attack was conducted against Poloznik

7 and Pirici. The enemy suffered great casualties. Until this moment we

8 are positive about the 20 killed enemy soldiers as well as significant

9 physical damage. Detailed report to follow tomorrow. Since the action is

10 still ongoing. As of yesterday, in the village of Kravica and Kamenica,

11 three enemy soldiers were killed in an ambush.

12 I wanted to ask you the following regarding this. This document

13 apparently was compiled by Captain Vaso Gujic [phoen]. Have you ever

14 heard of that name before?

15 A. Yes, several times. That was the person who usually contacted the

16 troops in the field from the garrison command.

17 Q. The attack on Pirici that you mentioned, does this document

18 reflect the situation in the field mentioning the attack you mentioned

19 when Samir Omerovic was killed?

20 A. Yes. This report fully reflects the situation and the offensive

21 as it was in mid-October. It lasted until the beginning of December.

22 Pirici suffered strong attacks there as well as Podloznik and the various

23 refugee camps and a lot of people were killed during those attacks.

24 People were forced to withdraw further towards Prezovica [phoen] and

25 together with the inhabitants of Podloznik and Pirici, and they remained

Page 11322

1 there until early December.

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I believe now is the

3 time that you asked me to leave at your disposal.

4 Thank you, Witness, for today. I believe we are finished for the

5 day, continuing tomorrow.

6 Did I understand properly, Your Honour, that this document has

7 already been given an exhibit number?


9 Mr. Malagic, we have to stop here today because we need to discuss

10 a couple of other matters which do not concern you. So you will be now

11 escorted out of the courtroom by Madam Usher. You will return again

12 tomorrow to continue with your examination-in-chief and hopefully finish

13 with it after which we will start with the cross-examination.

14 In the meantime, please I wish to draw your attention to a very

15 important matter. You are not to discuss with anyone between today and

16 tomorrow, and that applies also for the following days, the subject matter

17 of your testimony. It doesn't mean to say that you cannot ring up your

18 family and say hello or receive calls from family or friends, et cetera,

19 but the -- any discussion on the subject matter of your testimony or on

20 this case in general is prohibited and you must not engage in it. Did I

21 make myself clear?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, completely.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. You will return back tomorrow morning

24 at 9.00.

25 Usher, please.

Page 11323

1 [The witness stands down]

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Now, there are two matters that need to be dealt

3 with.

4 Ms. Sellers, the matter that you wished to raise, is it going to

5 be raised in public session or in private session?

6 MS. SELLERS: Private session, please, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: I thought you had mentioned that. So let's move

8 into private session for a while, please.

9 [Private session]

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

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Page 11324











11 Page 11324 redacted. Private session.















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Page 11326











11 Page 11326 redacted. Private session.















Page 11327

1 (redacted)

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4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 [Open session]

11 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session. I thank you for your

12 cooperation. These two matters will be handled in due course accordingly,

13 and we can now adjourn until tomorrow morning at 9.00, I think, in this

14 same courtroom? No? In courtroom ...

15 THE REGISTRAR: Courtroom III, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you.

17 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.49 p.m., to

18 be reconvened on Tuesday, the 27th day of September,

19 2005, at 9.00 a.m.