Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 11328

1 Tuesday, 27 September 2005

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.07 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Registrar, could you call the case, please,

6 and good morning to you.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number

8 IT-03-68-T, the Prosecutor versus Naser Oric.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Oric, can you follow the proceedings in your own

10 language?

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours,

12 gentlemen. Yes, I can follow the proceedings in my mother tongue.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Oric. You may sit down and good

14 morning to you.

15 Appearances for the Prosecution.

16 MR. WUBBEN: Good morning, Your Honours, and also good morning to

17 my learned friends of the Defence. My name is Jan Wubben, lead counsel

18 for the Prosecution. I'm here together with counsel Ms. Patricia Sellers,

19 counsel Mr. Gramsci di Fazio, and our case manager, Mrs. Donnica

20 Henry-Frijlink.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Wubben, and good morning to you and

22 your team.

23 Appearances for Naser Oric.

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours, good

25 morning to my colleagues from the Prosecution. I am Vasvija Vidovic, and

Page 11329

1 together with Mr. John Jones, I represent Mr. Naser Oric. And we have our

2 legal assistant with us, Ms. Adisa Mehic, and our CaseMap manager,

3 Mr. Geoff Roberts.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Madam Vidovic, and good morning to you

5 and your team.

6 Any preliminaries?

7 MR. WUBBEN: No, Your Honour.

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. As soon as you have definitive

10 developments following the Rule 70 motion, please brief us so that we can

11 define the matter.

12 MR. JONES: Yes, you would have received --


14 MR. JONES: From our part, we don't expect we will have any

15 further communications to make. The ball is in the Prosecution's court as

16 far as we are concerned.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: That's why I'm saying as long as you -- as soon as

18 you have a definitive position taken following the recent developments

19 please let us know. All right? Bring the witness in, please.

20 [The witness entered court]

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning, Mr. Malagic.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: We are proceeding with your testimony today, as I

24 explained yesterday. You don't need to reiterate the solemn declaration

25 that you entered yesterday. You're still testifying on the basis of it.

Page 11330

1 Ms. Vidovic.


3 [Witness answered through interpreter]

4 Examination by Ms. Vidovic: [Continued]

5 Q. Good morning, Mr. Malagic.

6 A. Good morning.

7 Q. We'll continue where we left off yesterday. Let me ask you first,

8 I have a feeling that you have some problems with your headphones. Is

9 everything all right now?

10 A. Yes, everything is all right now.

11 Q. Yesterday you were talking about the offensive at Pirici,

12 Poloznik, and you told us that the population had left and then had

13 returned to the area again, am I right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. I would now like to ask the usher to show the witness a document,

16 a new document.

17 It's a document by the command of the Drina Corps of the 12th of

18 December, 1992. It's called a report on the -- on a team visit. And it's

19 addressed to the command of the Bratunac Brigade, Colonel Milenko

20 Zivanovic.

21 First of all, could you please look at the document, and I would

22 like to ask you whether you, in the second half of November 1992 or in

23 early December 1992, heard anything about the existence of the Bratunac

24 Brigade or found out about it in any way?

25 A. Yes. By listening in at Likari we found out about the

Page 11331

1 establishment of the Bratunac Brigade.

2 Q. And now, Mr. Malagic, I would like to read to you the first

3 sentence of the second passage of this document. The goal of the visit,

4 and it's obvious that this is pertaining to a tour of certain areas around

5 Bratunac, so the drafter of the document says the goal of the visit was to

6 analyse all aspects of the state of combat readiness of the commands and

7 units focus being on command and control and logistics support.

8 Then I would like to quote to you something from the fourth

9 passage, and that is, the brigade was formed on the 14th of November 1992,

10 in accordance with the envisaged establishment and was allotted its zone

11 of operation. It was formed out of TO, Territorial Defence, units in the

12 main detachment and units of the local communes. The problems of its

13 formation need to be analysed in greater detail.

14 And then paragraph 7 of the document. The brigade command is

15 drawing up all necessary documents on the basis of which combat operations

16 are successfully being directed. Shelters appropriate for living in

17 combat operations in wintertime have been built but soldiers are

18 ill-disposed to carrying out offensive operations or to being engaged

19 outside of their allotted territory.

20 Mr. Malagic, I would like to ask you a question about this. You

21 said that you had found out about the establishment of the brigade through

22 listening in through the radio communications. Could you comment on this

23 part where it says that the Bratunac Brigade was formed from the TO units

24 and from units of the local communes? Could you please tell us what you

25 know about that.

Page 11332

1 A. As I said, we knew about the formation of the Bratunac Brigade

2 through the conversations that we were monitoring. When we are talking

3 about the TO, which was present in the local communes in their villages,

4 they comprised a part of that brigade but forming powerful strong brigades

5 in those areas. Analysing what we were listening to, we came to the

6 conclusion that they had five battalions as part of that brigade. The

7 first one was located in Bratunac itself. The second in Bjelovac, the

8 third in Kravica. The fourth in Sase, and the fifth one was located in

9 Fakovici. It's a little bit further away from Bratunac. The

10 2nd Battalion and the 4th Battalion of course were interesting to us, Sase

11 and Bjelovac, because they were attacking the areas of Likari at that area

12 as well as Pirici and Podloznik where our people were.

13 Q. Thank you very much. Just one clarification. Speaking about what

14 you heard through the radio communications you mentioned that you found

15 out about the existence of the Bratunac Brigade, and did I hear you right

16 that you also said that you found out about the existence of an assault

17 brigade? I didn't see that on transcript.

18 A. Yes. We found out about it at the same time probably the -- that

19 was what the establishment was like at the time. This assault brigade, as

20 far as we could understand, was active on a broader area of that region.

21 Q. Thank you very much. I would now like you to look at the eighth

22 paragraph of this document. The system of fire is organised well.

23 Hardware and units have been assigned their firing tasks, and single mines

24 or groups of mines have been planted in front of the positions.

25 Could you please comment on this part of the document? Do you

Page 11333

1 know anything about that?

2 A. Yes. They received considerably larger quantities of artillery

3 weapons after the formation of the brigade, we knew that they began to

4 receive howitzers, cannons, they already had some tanks but this was

5 strengthened from that period with some artillery and motorised units. We

6 knew exactly from the reports of our scouts who would go a bit closer

7 exactly where these artillery units were deployed.

8 Q. Could you tell us whether you had any information from the scouts

9 from Piricko Brdo regarding the area that they were able to see?

10 A. Yes. They frequently reported back to us. Midhat Salihovic would

11 report back to us that they couldn't stand the pressure there anymore from

12 the artillery fire, from the direction Jovanovici, Bjelovac, Kunjarac,

13 Sikirici, that it was terrible.

14 Q. Thank you very much.

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could this document be

16 given an exhibit number, please?

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. This document, which consists of two pages in

18 the B/C/S version and two pages in the English version, ERN

19 number 04358093 and 8094, is being tendered, received and marked as

20 Defence Exhibit D766. Yes.

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, now I would like the

22 witness to look at some footage from the Prosecution Exhibit P317. It's

23 video number 3937, and it's the ceremony on the formation of the Bratunac

24 Brigade on the 14th of November, 1992. We would like to show two short

25 excerpts but we would like them both to have one exhibit number. We don't

Page 11334

1 want them treated separately.

2 Q. So, Witness, please, could you please look at the first clip and

3 look at it carefully and comment on it, if possible.

4 [Videotape played]

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Mr. Malagic, first, could you please tell us whether you recognise

7 the voice of this person and do you know anything about what you have just

8 seen on this clip?

9 A. This is a voice that we had heard many times. This is the

10 commander of the Bratunac Brigade, Borivoje Tesic. When he would

11 communicate, he would always ask to speak with the battalion commanders.

12 He didn't want to speak with anyone else. By his voice we knew that it

13 was an arrogant person. The commanders talked about him. They knew he

14 had come from Vukovar, and they would say that, laughing, as they were

15 saying it, that he would turn Srebrenica into another Vukovar.

16 Q. Thank you very much.

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we have the second clip now,

18 please?

19 [Videotape played]

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Mr. Malagic, do you know this man and can you comment on this

22 clip? Have you heard -- had you heard this voice before?

23 A. I've never seen this man before or heard his voice. He's talking

24 about the strength of the battalion located at Sase, and that they would

25 be the first ones to liberate Serb Srebrenica. I don't know why it would

Page 11335

1 be Serb because the Muslims were in a majority there. As for the strength

2 of the battalion in Sase, we really felt that on our own backs, those of

3 us who were at Likari. We know very well how -- what its strength was.

4 Q. Thank you very much.

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could these two video

6 clips be given an exhibit number.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Sellers.

8 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, in one matter certainly don't object to

9 the first video clip. I think the witness has recognised the name of the

10 person and has given valuable testimony as to his interpretation. It

11 appears to me on the second video clip he is commenting on something that

12 was said on that video clip and did not recognise any of the persons

13 within the video clip. I would just want to state that for the record and

14 if there would be objection for its admission.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: It's a submission.

16 MS. SELLERS: Thank you, Your Honour.

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, just one question --

18 JUDGE AGIUS: We have to give it an exhibit number because we

19 haven't given it an exhibit number as yet.

20 Do we give the exhibit number to the entire -- do you want to give

21 the exhibit number to the entire video recording or just these clips? In

22 other words, for your purposes, are you going to tender the entire video

23 which will then become part of the evidence in its entirety, or only the

24 extracts that we have seen?

25 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, excuse me for interrupting. I've just

Page 11336












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Page 11337

1 been informed by my case manager and it might assist Madam Vidovic this is

2 already in.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: I have that impression too but that's -- let's put

4 it like this: Now that you are confirming it, it clarifies things for me

5 but -- but I had that impression but I wasn't quite sure. Yes,

6 Ms. Vidovic.

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is quite

8 extensive video material and it already has an exhibit number that I

9 mentioned. What I would like is to have these two clips as one exhibit by

10 the Defence, as one Defence Exhibit. The entire footage is something

11 else.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So I need the references, the beginning

13 and the end of each of these two video recordings. Could we go through

14 them?

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I can do that during

16 the break.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] And then we can say it into the

19 transcript. At this moment I don't have that information.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. And the two extracts together will become

21 Defence Exhibit D767.

22 I asked you the question because in the back of my mind, I had a

23 vivid recollection that this had been tendered already. Now, if you were

24 going to make use of the entire video recording, I wanted to alert to you

25 the fact that if the Prosecution is finding it useful, you ought to make

Page 11338

1 up your mind whether you wanted the entire video or the extracts only and

2 now it's clear.

3 All right. So let's proceed.

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

5 Q. Just one question relating to this, Witness: This second clip

6 that you saw, you heard that the man was talking about a strong battalion

7 in Sase. What you know, does what you already know confirm what this man

8 said in the video?

9 A. Yes, yes. I do confirm that there was a strong battalion in Sase.

10 Q. Thank you.

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the usher please show the

12 witness Exhibit D76, please.

13 Q. This is a directive from the Main Staff of the army of

14 Republika Srpska of the 19th of November 1992, signed by Lieutenant

15 General Ratko Mladic. I would like to draw your attention to

16 page 00876282.

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, in the English

18 translation, this is on page 5, the last paragraph from the bottom.

19 Q. Witness, have you found it? This is passage D. And it

20 states: "The Drina Corps, from its present positions, its main forces

21 shall persistently defend Visegrad, Zvornik and the corridor while the

22 rest of its forces in the broader Podrinje region shall exhaust the enemy,

23 inflect the heaviest possible losses on him and force him to leave the

24 Birac, Zepa and Gorazde areas together with the Muslim population. First

25 offer the able-bodied and armed men to surrender and if they refuse,

Page 11339

1 destroy them."

2 Witness, please, I would like to ask you: The Birac area, is that

3 the area where you were living, your broader area where you were?

4 A. Yes, the broader area.

5 Q. This is a document of the 19th of November, 1992. Could you

6 explain, please, to the Trial Chamber whether, according to what you saw

7 and experienced, this order by the commander of the army of

8 Republika Srpska, General Ratko Mladic, was implemented in practice?

9 A. Yes. This directive was implemented in practice. At the time we

10 were in a hopeless situation on their -- in their communications it all

11 boiled down to destroying the balijas, that's the term that they used,

12 push them towards Srebrenica and create a kind of concentration camp

13 there. At that time, we were in the most serious situation out of that

14 whole period, and then onwards from the month of December.

15 Q. Thank you very much.

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the usher now show the witness

17 another document? It's a new document.

18 Q. It's a document of the Bratunac Brigade command, dated the 20th of

19 November, 1992. It's a report for the 20th of November, 1992 sent to the

20 Drina Corps command, signed by Lieutenant Colonel Borivoje Tesic, and it

21 bears the number 04362987.

22 Mr. Malagic, first of all, I would like to draw your attention to

23 what is described in item 1: "The enemy occasionally opened fire in an

24 attempt to provoke our forces. They are still trying to infiltrate

25 civilians to look for food. The roads are closed."

Page 11340

1 Mr. Malagic, this part of the document that I just read out to

2 you, does it reflect the actual situation in the ground where you were?

3 A. Yes. It does reflect the actual situation in this period.

4 Civilians were not able to pass through to our villages to get food. We

5 warned them about it but they simply continued to go because they were so

6 hungry. Very few of them would come back once they left. They knew they

7 couldn't pass through but they still continued to go and look for food.

8 This was the most critical time out of that whole period, and I know that

9 a person called Rifet Civic [phoen] died of starvation and he was from my

10 village.

11 Q. Could you please look at paragraph 4 now. It states: "We are

12 expecting the Vukovar men to arrive any day now. After preparations in

13 the field, we will carry out detailed reconnaissance and then launch an

14 attack in the direction of Konjevic Polje. We will inform you later about

15 the date on which the unit will be engaged."

16 And then could you please look at paragraph 5, which states: "I

17 would like you as the commander to help me and persist with a General

18 Mynaksf to transfer the 7th Novi Sad Volunteer Company to the territory of

19 Bratunac. The company commander, Lieutenant Goran Stoparic, Sidja

20 expressed the wish to fight under my command. It is a company of --

21 numbering 130 Serbian soldiers fully equipped with weapons and equipment,

22 BST, and mortars, and experienced in fighting in Bosnia. I will transport

23 the troops in two buses. I hope that the arrival of such a company, even

24 temporarily, would greatly improve the morale of the Bratunac Brigade and

25 would yield visible results."

Page 11341

1 Mr. Malagic, did you have any information about what is said in

2 this document about the arrival of units from Serbia to the Bratunac area

3 at the time?

4 A. Yes. At that time, their intention was to destroy us utterly.

5 That's why they brought in new reinforcements. They were especially

6 happy - and we heard this - when battalions from Krajina arrived. People

7 from Vukovar. Because they were all experienced fighters from the war

8 theatre in Croatia. They kept arriving and attacking us. Their intention

9 was destroy us completely.

10 Q. How do you know what their intentions were and how do you know

11 about their arrival? Where does your information come from?

12 A. As I just said, we had radio equipment. At that time, it was

13 worth more to us than a mortar might have been.

14 Q. So did you hear that through radio communications?

15 A. Yes. We listened to them saying all those things over the radio.

16 Q. Thank you.

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, may this document be

18 given an exhibit number.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. This document which consists of two pages, one

20 being a translation in English of the other, with ERN number 04362987 is

21 being given Defence Exhibit number D768.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Mr. Malagic, at that time, listening in to those communications,

24 did you hear anything that concerned you especially and that had to do

25 with the way these forces were equipped?

Page 11342

1 A. Yes. We learned that these battalions were getting mechanised and

2 armoured squads and this upset our fighters.

3 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction.

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Would the usher now show the witness

5 another new document? It's another document issued by the command of the

6 Bratunac Brigade dated the 9th of December, 1992. It bears the title

7 delivery of information, or rather, data for operative records. And it's

8 addressed to the command of the Drina Corps. It's signed by Lieutenant

9 Colonel Borivoje Tesic, and the ERN number is 04361559.

10 Q. Witness, do you see the document?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. I will read first from paragraph 2 of this document. It

13 says: "The unit has five infantry battalions, one of which is a company

14 strength battalion, Fakovici."

15 In connection with this, as you have already confirmed to us that

16 you knew about these five infantry battalions, one of which was located in

17 Bjelovac and Sase, did you say that?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. As regards this tank, did you mention artillery weapons in

20 Bjelovac and Sase?

21 A. Yes. Apart from these armoured mechanised units, we can see on

22 this list what they had. They started bringing in howitzers to locations

23 closer to Piricko Brdo. Here we have 105-millimetre howitzer. This is a

24 highly destructive weapon, and it was facing Likari in the Sase area, and

25 on Tablja. Midhat Salihovic and our men in Pirici told us that they had

Page 11343

1 seen a howitzer in Jovanovici. And do you see these guns here, these are

2 mountain guns, ZIS. These are all various guns. There is a difference

3 between howitzers and the guns. And they were located in the Andrici

4 area, targeting Likari directly. In the area of Jovanovici and Sikirici,

5 they also had such weapons.

6 Q. How do you know this?

7 A. Well, we knew this very well. As I've already explained we were

8 able to see Sase. We had several pairs of binoculars and our scouts could

9 come close, they could creep up and see this, and I could also recognise

10 the sound of these weapons. I had been through military training in the

11 former JNA, so I could tell the difference in sound between a howitzer, a

12 gun or a tank firing.

13 Q. 120-millimetre mortar battery is mentioned here. Do you know

14 where this was located?

15 A. Yes. Part of this battery, because a battery comprises many

16 artillery weapons, was located in the Gradina-Sase area, another one in

17 the Tablja-Pobrdje area, and one in Kunjarac-Bjelovac. They had deployed

18 several artillery weapons in each of these locations, so they were able to

19 cover the entire territory with mortars.

20 Q. Do you know anything about Andrici?

21 A. Yes. As I said, in Andrici it was mainly guns that were placed

22 there, and they could fire directly at the houses in Likari. A gun shoots

23 directly. It has high initial targeting speed and it can destroy a house

24 right away, unlike a howitzer which can also shoot at targets that are not

25 visible from that position.

Page 11344

1 Q. As far as Bjelovac is concerned, did you or did you not have any

2 knowledge of the existence of artillery weapons there, and if so, where?

3 A. Yes. In the broader area of Bjelovac, that is Jovanovici,

4 Sikiric, behind the primary school in Bjelovac, there was also an

5 82-millimetre mortar battery there. In Jovanovici, there was a howitzer.

6 And in Sikirici, there were also mountain guns, B1 and ZIS, targeting

7 houses in Pirici and Poloznik.

8 Q. Where did you get this information, you personally?

9 A. We received this information from our men in Pirici, and many

10 people when they went looking for food had to go through the village of

11 Bajici while on their way down to Biljaca and they would see that. They

12 had a good view in the direction of Bjelovac.

13 Q. Would you now look at the last part of this document where it

14 says, T55, T34, OTM, 60, and self-propelled weapon. Did you have any

15 knowledge about the existence of these artillery pieces in your area and,

16 if so, where were they positioned?

17 A. T55, those are tanks, as well as T34; those were also tanks. Then

18 there is M60 armoured personnel carriers and four BBPs and two

19 self-propelled guns. This operative information corresponds to the

20 situation on the ground. In the Bjelovac area, as far as we know, there

21 was one tank and two armoured personnel carriers covering the area. They

22 were moving around. They had the same kind of equipment in the Sase area

23 to cover the area towards Likari and Potocari. They had one tank and two

24 armoured personnel carriers in that area as well.

25 Q. Thank you very much.

Page 11345












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Page 11346

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, may this document be

2 given an exhibit number.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, this document will become Defence Exhibit D769.

4 It consists of two pages in the B/C/S and two pages in the corresponding

5 English translation, ERN number 04361559.

6 Just for the record, the Trial Chamber points out that in

7 paragraph numbered 3, there is a discrepancy in between the two versions

8 in the number of M53 light machine-guns. In the B/C/S it is 103 of these

9 machine-guns, while in the English translation, this has -- shows up

10 as 130. Doesn't make much difference but it's only for the record.

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. For your

12 information, yesterday, because these are all official translations, I

13 asked them to pay attention to all the details Your Honour observed

14 yesterday.

15 Q. Mr. Malagic, I will now ask you something else.

16 Yesterday and today, you described in detail military units and

17 weapons in the areas of Bjelovac, Kunjarac, Sikiric, Pobrdje and so on.

18 In connection with this, I will ask you the following: If someone were to

19 say that the inhabitants of Bjelovac, Sikiric, Sase and the entire

20 Bjelovac area from the beginning of the war until mid-December 1992, had

21 only village guards, on the basis of your experience, would this be true?

22 A. Absolutely not. That claim would not hold water. They had

23 village guards in 1991 while there was a war going on in Croatia. Later

24 on -- I'm from Voljavica, I didn't leave of my own free will. Those

25 units drove us out of our area. Those were assault units, assaulting

Page 11347

1 Likari, Pirici, Poloznik. Such a claim would be absolutely incorrect and

2 not grounded in fact.

3 Q. If someone were to call those units village guards in Bjelovac,

4 Sikiric and Sase, in spite of this, and if they were to say that they had

5 nothing to do with the Serbian army and received no assistance from the

6 Serbian army, would this be correct?

7 A. It would be incorrect. Yesterday you showed me a document in

8 which it can clearly be seen that the garrison in Bratunac was appointing

9 Dragan Ilic from Bjelovac as company commander. The Bratunac garrison

10 appointed him. This means that they had a well-developed command and

11 control system at the time. The units in Bjelovac and Sase were assault

12 units of the Bratunac Brigade.

13 Q. Thank you very much. Very well.

14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Would the usher please show the

15 witness the following document.

16 Q. This is a document of the Drina Corps command dated the 11th of

17 December, 1992. It's a combat report addressed to the Main Staff of the

18 army of Republika Srpska, and the document is signed by Colonel Milutin

19 Skocajic. The number is 04268444. I will quote the first two paragraphs

20 of point 2, which read as follows: "Our forces, on the night between the

21 10th and the 11th of December, 1992, our forces, in all sectors, zones of

22 responsibility, set up ambushes and reconnoitred the terrain. As a

23 result, 15 enemy combatants were killed and another one was captured.

24 Units designated to carry out operations are making preparations and

25 scouting the terrain."

Page 11348

1 Mr. Malagic, do you remember the events linked to any ambushes in

2 the first half of December 1992, and have you heard of any of those

3 killings mentioned in the document I read out?

4 A. Yes. We knew very well about the setting up of these ambushes and

5 that 15 enemy combatants were killed. These were civilians in the areas

6 of Biljaca or Prisoj, and this prisoner here I know his name, Sead Masic,

7 a young boy from Voljavica who was captured at the time. We knew about

8 those ambushes but it was not possible to prevent people from going to

9 look for food.

10 Q. Thank you. A bit lower down, under 3, I quote, it

11 says: "Decision to continue with the implementation of the earlier

12 decision on further operations, the reception of troops coming as

13 reinforcements, the preparation of units for living, working and executing

14 tasks in winter conditions, setting up ambushes on the axis of potential

15 enemy incursions and sending out our reconnaissance groups to collect

16 information about the enemy."

17 Here in this part of the document, he speaks of preparation for

18 the carrying out of active operations. Did you have any knowledge that

19 attacks were being planned against you in mid-December 1992 or not?

20 A. Yes. We knew about these preparations. It was difficult to

21 communicate with the other groups in the area. Sometimes somebody from

22 Gostilj would come by and they would pass on the information to their

23 groups. We tried to let our people know, but it was very difficult to

24 pass through. It was dangerous. People often disappeared on those roads.

25 We were then in the most difficult situation and we knew we were facing

Page 11349

1 total extinction.

2 Q. Thank you.

3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, may this document of

4 the Drina Corps command of the 11th of December, 1992 be given an exhibit

5 number.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated] -- version with ERN

7 number 04268444 and two pages for the corresponding translation into

8 English being tendered and received and marked as Defence Exhibit D770.

9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Mr. Malagic, how did you in Likari respond to this information

11 that you heard on the radio that a Serb offensive was being planned, a

12 Serb attack?

13 A. At that time, our leader was Zajko Alic, because on the 12th of

14 July, Osman Malagic had been killed. After that, it was Zajko Alic who

15 was our leader. He was from Voljavica. He was an eminent man, a teacher,

16 an educated man. He called us together. He was visibly upset. He

17 said, "We won't be able to survive this. We have to do something. We

18 learned of deaths of starvation among our people on a daily basis. He

19 said we had to break through to our villages before the new year, that we

20 had to remove those Serb strongholds, where they were constantly killing

21 us from, Sase, Kunjarac, in order to be able to return to Voljavica,

22 Zaluzje and Biljaca and simply to survive in that area.

23 Q. Will you tell Their Honours those people, those refugees in the

24 woods, were they still there? Those thousands of people?

25 A. Yes. Winter found them in the area of Pirici and Poloznik. It

Page 11350

1 was even worse than it had been at the beginning. People from the village

2 would take children in to spend the night, but all those people were in

3 the woods.

4 Q. Thank you. Mr. Alic, did he, when he said you had to do

5 something, did he contact anybody else and was any help promised?

6 A. Yes. He said that other people had promised to help us to return

7 to our villages, because people saw what kind of situation we were in.

8 Q. Did he mention anyone specifically?

9 A. Yes. He mentioned that he had met Semso Husic, the leader of a

10 group of fighters in Poloznik. He was a man we held in high regard

11 because he had helped us while we were stationed in Poloznik. Semso asked

12 him, Zajko, to send us an anti-tank weapon, an anti-armour weapon, because

13 where we were, a tank would come and destroy one house after the other.

14 This was promised.

15 In Likari, we had captured two hand-held mortars and two Zoljas,

16 that is an anti-armour weapon, and he asked that a mortar be sent.

17 Q. Who was the person who took this hand-held mortar?

18 A. As Semso had helped my parents in Poloznik quite a lot, I

19 volunteered, with Juso Cvrk, and we said we would take it to Semso and put

20 ourselves at his disposal because we had been trained to use that weapon.

21 Q. Do you remember the day when you went to see Mr. Jusic?

22 A. Jusic, yes, that was the 13th of December. We set out at around

23 10.00. It's a long road. And in the evening we arrived in the Poloznik

24 area and we reported to Semso Husic.

25 Q. Husic. Very well. And what happened next?

Page 11351

1 A. In the morning, very early on the 14th of December, Semso gave us

2 three armed men as an escort and he sent us to the Piricko Brdo area, the

3 hill there, and from there, we could see where the camp [as interpreted]

4 was coming from and we improvised an ambush. So that should the tank set

5 out in the direction of Poloznik, we could destroy it.

6 Q. In the record, it says "camp" instead of "tank."

7 What did you say you could see from the foot of Pirici hill?

8 A. In the shelter we were in, from the area of Pirici hill we could

9 see all of Jovanovici. The river Loznicka and part of Bjelovac, as far as

10 the school, from where we were, because there is a hill. It's quite high,

11 and it has a lot of elevations there.

12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if the usher could show

13 the witness the map we used yesterday, D757.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I suppose you better leave it there in front

15 of the witness until he finishes. Thank you, Madam.

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Could you please point out to the Trial Chamber the bottom of the

18 Pirici hill and describe what you saw in the early morning hours on the

19 14th of December, 1992?

20 A. Pirici is here. That's a populated settlement, inhabited

21 settlement. And all of this is a wooded area. It's a hilly area. We

22 were somewhere here. And we could see very well these houses in

23 Jovanovici, in Loznicka Rijeka and some of the houses in Bjelovac, near

24 the school, to be more precise. So we could see all of these things.

25 Q. Thank you very much. Mr. Malagic, you said that you got there and

Page 11352

1 took up shelter with several people there. Were you the only person who

2 got there that day according to your information or were there any other

3 fighters, for example, who were located above you?

4 A. I didn't see too many people. I know that above me there was an

5 anti-aircraft machine-gun situated above me and this was manned by people

6 from Pirici.

7 Q. In other words, immediately in your vicinity, there were people

8 from Pirici?

9 A. Yes, yes. Because that was their sector.

10 Q. Were they armed?

11 A. Yes, they were armed. A PAM was hidden behind some trees.

12 Q. Could you please tell us, where did those people from Pirici get

13 that PAM from; do you know?

14 A. They captured it in the fighting around Pirici because we didn't

15 have anyone to give us arms or we couldn't manufacture anything. Well,

16 you know that.

17 Q. Who did they capture it from?

18 A. They captured that in the fighting around Pirici with the Serbs

19 because there was some fierce fighting there.

20 Q. Thank you. Do you remember that morning, the 14th of December,

21 and whether there was any shooting at any point or was there an attack?

22 A. Yes. At about 7.00, or a quarter past 7.00 maybe, as it was

23 foggy, the fog had lifted, it was winter. I remember seeing very well

24 Serb positions in front of me above the village of Jovanovici. These were

25 entrenchments and there were some sandbags around the positions. Our PAM

Page 11353

1 began to fire at those trenches. Then they returned fire. Our fighters

2 again opened fire at them. The Serbs were surprised at first. And then

3 they pulled back into the outlying houses in Jovanovici which were like

4 real bunkers. They had placed sandbags around the houses and turned them

5 into machine-gun nests. And then they really started firing at our

6 fighters who were trying to get into those trenches.

7 Q. Could you please tell the Trial Chamber what is Jovanovici? Could

8 you show it on the map?

9 A. Jovanovici is a part -- a hamlet of Loznicka Rijeka. It had some

10 15 to 17 houses perhaps.

11 I will show where it is. There is a road here which -- this is

12 the main road from Bjelovac to Skelani, and right here there is a road

13 that leads towards Loznicka, and Jovanovici is in this area here. I will

14 put a circle there. And it also is a part of some of these houses that

15 are along the Skelani-Bjelovac road.

16 Q. Could you please indicate that with a letter J?

17 A. Very well.

18 Q. Your position, how far was that from Jovanovici?

19 A. As the crow flies, it wasn't more than perhaps 300 to 400 metres.

20 I could really estimate the distance very well. We could see the houses

21 very well.

22 Q. You mentioned other people in that small group of yours. Did you

23 have anything?

24 A. We had a set of hunting binoculars which were given to us by Semso

25 when he deployed us at that position.

Page 11354












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Page 11355

1 Q. Could you please explain, why were you at that position? You said

2 that you had an anti-armour weapon?

3 A. Yes. We had a hand-held launcher with two shells. And in case of

4 a counter-attack by the Serb forces towards Piricko Brdo and Loznik, or in

5 case they tried to use a tank in that direction, it was our task to try

6 and stop those armoured vehicles.

7 Q. Very well. Could you please describe to the Trial Chamber how the

8 fighting developed in the early morning exactly what happened?

9 A. After the Serb forces withdrew to the houses, they opened fierce

10 fire at our fighters above Jovanovici, and fierce fighting ensued for

11 about half an hour. There was no artillery fire. Only at about 7.30 the

12 shells started to fall, artillery or mortar shells from the direction of

13 Bjelovac. But what surprised us was that they first shelled the houses.

14 They were probably confused. They didn't know what was going on. They

15 thought perhaps that our fighters had entered Jovanovici so they started

16 to shell and then gradually to move the shelling towards our fighters and

17 towards Podloznik and Pirici.

18 Q. And did you also use your PAM at those houses?

19 A. Yes. The PAM had to fire at those houses. We used that the most

20 because tremendous reinforcements were coming from the direction of

21 Bjelovac towards Jovanovici, so the PAM was firing at those people and at

22 the houses from which fire was being directed at our fighters.

23 Q. Very well. Did you have the impression that very well organised

24 fighting was being conducted, either on the Serb side or on your side?

25 A. No. In the beginning, they shelled their own houses. Our men

Page 11356

1 started to withdraw because when the area gets shelled, people would

2 escape, run away. Some would go back. So it was general chaos. A

3 transporter would be firing from Bjelovac, from a PAM, they would be

4 firing at the houses, they would be firing at us, so we would have to find

5 better shelter so that we would not be exposed to that fire.

6 Q. Do you remember at that time, did you know anything about

7 Sikirici?

8 A. Yes. Shooting was heard in Sikiric, and because there weren't too

9 many Serb houses there, they left the houses and they fled in the

10 direction of Jovanovici and they joined these Serbs who were in the

11 houses in Jovanovici.

12 Q. All of this that was going on and that you are describing is -- is

13 this something that you were able to see?

14 A. Yes. I was able to see that spread in front of me, because the

15 Pirici hill, you probably were never there, is a good point where you

16 could see all of that. You have control of everything if you're there.

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to show the witness

18 Defence Exhibit 271 now, and this is an excerpt from video footage we

19 received from the Prosecutor, and it was number 1574. We are going to

20 hand out the -- to the Trial Chamber and to the Prosecution a transcript

21 of this Exhibit D271.1 so you can follow the footage better.

22 Q. Witness, could you please listen carefully to what is being shown

23 and to what you can hear? I would like to also ask you to comment on what

24 you hear and what you see, particularly to what you hear.

25 [Videotape played]

Page 11357

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Mr. Malagic, based on what you have heard, could you please tell

3 the Trial Chamber whether this is -- these are Serbs talking amongst

4 themselves or Muslims?

5 A. These are Serbs talking.

6 Q. I would like to ask you some questions about this. At 0039, a

7 voice said that they were urgently looking for precise coordinates. Did

8 you hear the voice say that?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Do you remember this event and can you give your own comment

11 regarding what he said?

12 A. Here, they are looking for precise coordinates in order to use

13 their artillery. They said we can't do it like this. They could see that

14 these shells were being fired everywhere. I don't know if they were being

15 guided or were being guided wrongly but the shells were hitting all over

16 the place. The houses, Jovanovici, Pirici, so they said, "We can't do it

17 like this." They have to know where the shells should be fired. And then

18 later, they said you've heard about the coordinates, fire at the part

19 above Jovanovici. That's where we were. And our fighters. So above

20 Jovanovici, he noticed that and he was already giving them the

21 coordinates. Up until that time they were shooting blindly.

22 Q. Let's stop at Jovanovici now. The voice said, "Go up," meaning

23 above me, above Jovanovici, around here, above Jovanovici, take those

24 coordinates, you have the map. Let them target and fire there. Then he

25 cursed. And then he said they should fly up there, they should do

Page 11358

1 something. Did I understand you properly that the PAM that you mentioned,

2 it was above Jovanovici?

3 A. Yes, our PAM was at the Pirici hill all the time, above Jovanovici

4 so they could sense that it was firing at the houses where they were

5 firing at us from so they tried to neutralise that also.

6 Q. Thank you. And I would also like to ask you the following: Could

7 you please explain to the Trial Chamber exactly what a PAM is and does it

8 have anything characteristic as a weapon?

9 A. Yes. A PAM is an abbreviation for a Protivavionski Mitraljez

10 anti-aircraft machine-gun, and it's usually placed on a vehicle. There

11 are browning models. And its specific action is that in the series of

12 bullets it fires, every 12th bullet is an incendiary bullet, in order to

13 be able to set the plane on fire if it happens to hit an airplane.

14 Q. All right. Before this incident, did you have any experience

15 before in fighting, actually before this event with that type of weapon?

16 I mean, did you have any experience in using that kind of weapon?

17 A. Yes. Very often, when a PAM is fired, we hide well because if it

18 hits something, that weapon has lots of shrapnel, so if it hits hay, it

19 will set the hay on fire. If it hits the house, it will set the house on

20 fire.

21 Q. Thank you very much. At 113 they said they are about to take off,

22 and then the next section says it means from Kunjarac towards Pirici.

23 Could you comment on this, please?

24 A. Yes, this is the first flyover by the planes. And this reference

25 from Kunjarac towards Pirici on the right side, I can actually show that

Page 11359

1 to you on the map. It's in the sector of Ljuljaska. I will mark that

2 with an X. This is where very many of our civilians were concentrated,

3 and they were waiting for the outcome of the fighting in order to be able

4 to go down to Biljaca, Voljavica and Zaluzje. There was a large crowd of

5 people there. The airplane saw them out in the open, and they really --

6 it really massacred the population. They thought that the plane would not

7 fire at them, that it was going towards Pirici, but they were spotted out

8 in the open so that many, many civilians were killed who were only

9 actually wanting to go back to their villages. I don't know if the actual

10 pilot of the plane was aware of what it had -- what he had done.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. For the record, the witness has marked

12 an X -- marked with an X on the map a spot which is within an imaginary

13 triangle between -- of -- composed of Jasovac, Sase and Podloznik.

14 Yes. Go ahead Madam Vidovic, please.

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. I have one more question on this topic. This airplane, was it

17 flying over other regions as well where you were?

18 A. Yes. It was constantly flying over Kunjarac and Jovanovici and

19 Pirici, Podloznik, then in the direction of Voljavica where there was also

20 fighting. It was flying over that entire area. Actually two airplanes

21 were covering that entire area.

22 Q. Thank you. And finally, you could hear Mungos and Kokara being

23 mentioned on this footage. Do you know anything about this? Are these

24 Serbs or Muslims?

25 A. Mungos, his last name is Prodanovic. I don't know what his first

Page 11360

1 name is. I know that before the war he was working at a ticket conductor

2 in the local bus, and they also had a unit called Mungos, but he was also

3 called Mungos. The other thing is that Kokara was working at the OKA

4 combine in Kravica before the war. He knew a lot of martial arts, and he

5 also had a special group with him that was active in that area of

6 Bjelovac, Kunjarac, Sase and so on.

7 Q. Very well. You described these two people. Could you please tell

8 us whether they were Muslims or Serbs?

9 A. They were Serbs.

10 Q. Thank you very much.

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would now like to

12 show the witness another video clip. It's a Defence Exhibit D111, and I

13 would also like to mention that this is an excerpt from Prosecution

14 Exhibit P317, and it also refers to Bjelovac.

15 Would you please play it from 00 to 0101?

16 Q. And Witness, could you please carefully look at the footage and

17 also follow what is being said? Can we play the video, please.

18 [Videotape played]

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20 Q. First of all, do you remember this plane flying over? Is that the

21 plane that you described as flying over Jovanovici on the 9th, in the

22 morning? Actually, on the 14th of December, 1992 or not?

23 A. Yes. That's that same airplane.

24 Q. Did you register a voice saying, did you see the planes shooting,

25 that word, prokati [phoen], shooting? Can you explain what that means?

Page 11361

1 A. It means killing, destroying, causing havoc.

2 Q. And then, it says, and did you see how well they are firing? And

3 the second voice asks, where is the other one? Do you recall that on that

4 morning, right after 9.00, there were several airplanes, more than one?

5 A. Yes, the second airplane.

6 MS. SELLERS: That's a bit of a leading question.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Rephrase your question. I'm just asking to you

8 rephrase it because --

9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours, but it's just

10 that the witness already mentioned these two airplanes.

11 Q. Yes, did you already mention that there were two planes flying

12 over that morning?

13 A. I already said that there were two, if you recall.

14 Q. Thank you very much. Very well.

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours, I will pay

16 attention to this.

17 Q. Did you notice a voice saying, "Now they are firing from a

18 machine-gun?"

19 And then the second one said, "Well they are firing at it but they

20 didn't hit it."

21 Do you remember whether the PAM that you were talking about fired

22 or didn't fire at the airplane?

23 A. Yes, it had to shoot at the airplane. Whenever it would come in

24 the direction of our positions, the PAM would fire at it but it didn't hit

25 it. Also, the infantry unit fighters were also firing but it wasn't

Page 11362

1 effective.

2 As far as the second plane is concerned, it came later. It was an

3 agricultural airplane from ADA. But the second plane was a much more

4 modern airplane. It was a G4 Gallet airplane, and you could see very well

5 what it was. It came from the direction of Serbia. There was an airfield

6 there, Ponikve, near Titovo Uzice. I served in the army there, so I knew

7 about that airport. It came and it was armed with air-to-surface

8 missiles, and it was more active in Voljavica and Kunjarac, whereas the

9 other plane was firing exclusively in Jovanovici and the positions of our

10 fighters around Pirici and Voljavica.

11 Q. And what is your comment on this, "If there are Ustashas there,

12 they are crazy." Could you please comment on that? First of all, who are

13 Ustashas?

14 A. The Serbs called us Muslims by that name, Ustashas, as well as

15 Croatian Catholics. That's how they called us. And when it says "if

16 there are Ustashas there, they must be crazy," well, you need to

17 experience what it's like to have the air force fire at you. They really

18 would need to be crazy to be in the area where these explosive devices or

19 the -- these bombs are being dropped. There is a lot of smoke that they

20 generate, and these are large amounts of explosives with a large number of

21 shrapnel which are deadly, and nobody who is in that area can stay alive.

22 Q. Could you please look at this last scene on the video footage? Do

23 you see it? Do you have it in front of you?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Can you see that houses are burning on that image?

Page 11363












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Page 11364

1 A. I can see, not -- not all the houses are burning, there is smoke

2 from the bombs being dropped from the plane. And then in the right part

3 of the photograph, you can see that there is a house that's burning.

4 Q. Could you please tell the Trial Chamber what exactly is this place

5 that we are seeing? Where is this image?

6 A. This is the part where Loznicka Rijeka and Jovanovici start. It's

7 a part near the road. You don't see the main part of Jovanovici. You see

8 this part of Jovanovici towards the woods and Loznicka Rijeka.

9 Q. In other words, it's nevertheless Jovanovici?

10 A. Yes. There is a couple of houses to the right, you can see them,

11 that's where Loznicka Rijeka begins, and there are no more houses there.

12 Q. Let me ask you this. Are these the houses at which your PAM was

13 firing too?

14 A. Yes. These are the houses that they were firing from. These were

15 proper machine-gun nests that they were firing from. And then you can see

16 our fighters were up higher, and they were firing -- they were firing from

17 an M53 machine-gun, whereas our fighters were shooting at those houses.

18 Q. Could you please tell the Trial Chamber how these houses were set

19 on fire?

20 A. Whoever would tell you how they were set on fire would be lying.

21 It could have happened from the shooting from our PAM. Whoever said that

22 they knew exactly how they were set on fire would not be telling the

23 truth. It could have been our PAM. It could have been the Serb artillery

24 shooting from across the Drina. It could have been the bombs dropped from

25 the airplane. So these are the three causes for the fire in those houses.

Page 11365

1 Q. So you would not be able to tell the exact cause?

2 A. It could have been any of these three things that I mentioned.

3 Nobody could tell you exactly.

4 Q. How long were you there on that day?

5 A. I was in that area until the afternoon, until 4.00 in the

6 afternoon to be exact.

7 Q. And did the planes continue to fly over throughout that time?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Thank you very much.

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could you please play the rest of

11 this footage from 0400 up to 503.

12 Q. Witness, could you please carefully look and listen to what these

13 people are saying?

14 [Videotape played]

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Witness, please, did you notice a male voice saying, "Wait, it

17 wasn't burning before now."

18 And then a younger male voice said, "The plane just bombed it. It

19 dropped about ten bombs just now."

20 I would like to ask you the following. In your testimony

21 yesterday you said that from your positions where you were observing the

22 events from, you were able to see a part of Bjelovac. Were you able to

23 see it from the shelter where you had moved to? You said that you had

24 gone a little bit more back.

25 A. I wasn't able to see the whole of Bjelovac. I could see up to the

Page 11366

1 elementary school. This other part, near Loznicka Rijeka, I was able to

2 see.

3 Q. In other words, did I understand you properly as saying that you

4 were able to see this other part of Bjelovac that you could see on the

5 footage?

6 A. This is not Bjelovac. There was no fighting in Bjelovac. If you

7 look on the map where you see Bjelovac, I will mark exactly the part up

8 until the fighting -- until -- up where the fighting reached. I will

9 point to that part. There is a letters SK indicating where the school

10 was. Actually, there was no fighting in that part.

11 Q. Do you remember seeing this bombing that the voices are talking

12 about on the -- in the footage?

13 A. Yes, I did. I saw all of the bombing.

14 Q. And I'm speaking about this specific bombing that we showed in

15 this footage. Could you please tell the Trial Chamber so that it's quite

16 clear, which part was bombed? Which place? Which hamlet?

17 A. At this point, a part of Loznicka Rijeka was bombed between

18 Bjelovac and Jovanovici. That was the part that was bombed.

19 Q. Ahead.

20 A. Well, it was strange to us at the time.

21 Q. At that time, when this was happening, were you able to conclude

22 why they were bombing this area?

23 A. Initially we thought perhaps there were ammunition depots in the

24 houses and they were afraid they might fall into Muslim hands. That's

25 what we thought. But we had no idea actually why they were bombing

Page 11367

1 Loznicka Rijeka.

2 Q. Did you ever learn more about this after these events?

3 A. Yes. Around the 23rd of December, when the fighting died down in

4 that area, a relative of mine, Haris Ahmetovic from Mihaljevici, told us

5 that together with a small group of brave fighters, he had tried to enter

6 Loznicka Rijeka from the direction of the Drina and there they clashed

7 with special purpose units, the Mungos and Kokara that were mentioned.

8 Q. Is this the comment you can hear on this video?

9 A. Yes. These people are saying a group has gone to surround those

10 Ustasha that came from the direction of the Drina, and probably that was

11 why they bombed those houses. You heard the comment this house was not in

12 flames. And then you could hear them saying that the plane had dropped

13 about ten bombs on those houses.

14 Q. Did you see the dropping of those ten bombs on Loznicka Rijeka,

15 you personally?

16 A. Yes. You can see each and every bomb. We called them boilers.

17 They were bombs packed with explosives, highly destructive. Probably of

18 Yugoslav manufacture.

19 Q.

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I think we

21 can have a break now.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. We will have a 25 or 30-minute break,

23 depending on what your answer is going to be.

24 I have a feeling that you're approaching the end of your direct.

25 How much more time do you think you require?

Page 11368

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the next part of the

2 session certainly.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. And are you in a position to start your

4 cross-examination today?

5 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, there were several things that were

6 brought up that we would like to discuss with our colleagues, and we might

7 just ask the Trial Chamber to bear with us and start tomorrow or just

8 start a very minimum today.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay. Please try and give us a more

10 definitive picture when we come back after the break.

11 MS. SELLERS: Certainly.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: We can have a 30-minute break, actually. Also, in

13 the meantime, we are going to meet to discuss several matters related to

14 this case and other cases. So we will let you know if we are planning to

15 start later than 30 minutes. All right? Thank you.

16 --- Recess taken at 10.36 a.m.

17 --- On resuming at 11.12 a.m.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Sellers, are you in a position now to

19 inform us whether you would be starting your cross-examination today?

20 MS. SELLERS: Yes, Your Honour, I will start today after the next

21 break and then the bulk of course of my cross-examination will be in

22 tomorrow's session.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: How long do you anticipate roughly your

24 cross-examination to last?

25 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I believe it will last probably one

Page 11369

1 court day.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: And the witness is scheduled to leave when? Madam

3 Registrar? Perhaps we could check a little bit because I wouldn't like to

4 keep him -- in other words, when you say one whole court day, that would

5 exclude today's part or not? In other words, if tomorrow we start at

6 10.00 and finish at quarter to 2.00, would you be in a position to

7 conclude? We will have one break.

8 MS. SELLERS: That's what I was going to ask. It depends on --

9 normally when we have the modified court day, we have less breaks, and I

10 believe during that time period, if we would follow modified breaks, I

11 should be able to conclude.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: I wouldn't like to keep the witness here for more

13 than he is actually scheduled to be. So Madam Vidovic, let's proceed.

14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, before I continue

15 examining the witness, I wish to state for the record that during the

16 break we checked the time needed to locate the video material, and I can

17 say that both video clips come from P317, one of two videos. The first

18 video clip, called Tesic, is on 0107048 to 010837 of the original video.

19 And the second video clip is from 0103025 to 010400 of the original

20 video, P317.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Madam Vidovic. And please, could we

22 have this part cut, pasted and printed out for our secretaries so that

23 they could give it the exhibit number that we indicated earlier on, which

24 I think is 767, D767.

25 All right. Let's proceed.

Page 11370

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Witness, before the break, we were talking about the location

3 where there was fighting, and you said it was in Jovanovici and

4 Loznicka Rijeka. While you were there, and you said you were there on the

5 14th of December, in the area overlooking Jovanovici until about 4.00

6 p.m., did a single armed Muslim manage to the best of your knowledge to

7 enter Jovanovici and Loznicka Rijeka except for the group you mentioned

8 from the direction of Pirici?

9 A. No. This was not possible.

10 Q. Please, at one point in time, was there a counter-attack by the

11 Serb forces, a strong counter-attack on that day?

12 A. Yes. When they had consolidated their ranks, starting from 8.00,

13 help arrived in Jovanovici from Bjelovac for them and they started pushing

14 back our fighters towards Pirici and Loznik. Their counter-attack lasted

15 the whole day, especially those two groups, the Mungos and the Kokara that

16 we mentioned, who fought that group, and pushed them back towards Pirici.

17 Q. Do you know what was happening at the same time in Kunjarac?

18 A. Yes. At Kunjarac, there was also fierce fighting.

19 Q. Do you remember that someone you knew well was killed on that day?

20 A. Yes. At around 4.00 in the afternoon, we withdrew to the area of

21 Poloznik, our whole group, and there I learned of the death of Semso Husic

22 who had been killed at Kunjarac, and this upset me. I had a very good

23 opinion of that young man. He was the local leader of the people in

24 Poloznik.

25 Q. Very well. Did you stay in Poloznik or did you go somewhere else

Page 11371

1 on that day or the following day?

2 A. We didn't stay in Poloznik. I wanted to know what had happened in

3 my village of Voljavica. With all due respect to the other villages, I

4 was born in Voljavica and I wanted to go there. So Huso and I set out

5 towards Voljavica along the Poloznik-Ljuljaska-Bilisnjik [phoen]-Prisoj

6 road. And we met our leader Zajko in Zalasnik [phoen] and the other men.

7 Q. Before you left this area, did you learn what had happened in

8 Kunjarac? Did you have any information about any weapons that may or may

9 not have been captured there?

10 A. We knew that there was fighting going on there, around Kunjarac.

11 We knew from before that the Serbs had a stronghold there, a very strong

12 one, that they had a special purpose platoon there, parts of the Krajina

13 Battalion. They guarded Kunjarac well because their water pumps were

14 there for the Bratunac waterworks, city waterworks, and this was one of

15 their biggest strongholds in the area.

16 Q. When you say the reds were there, do you mean the Red Berets?

17 A. The reds were a special unit and the Red Berets were a different

18 unit.

19 Q. Very well. When you went off towards Voljavica on the 14th of

20 December, what was happening there? Was there any fighting there?

21 A. Yes. We met with our leader, Zajko. We met up with him. They

22 were happy that we were still alive. He told us there had been fighting

23 with the Red Berets all day. The Red Berets had attacked Voljavica. And

24 that they had managed to inflict losses on the Red Berets and to capture

25 some rifles and ammunition.

Page 11372












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13 English transcripts.













Page 11373

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, can the witness now be

2 shown two Defence exhibits, D94 and D95? Can they be shown to the witness

3 together.

4 Q. Witness, would you please have a look at D94? It's a record of

5 soldiers' deaths. The number is 01321081, and it's about Cvijic, son of

6 Ilija. Do you see it?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Do you see the date and place of his death? It says in Voljavica,

9 on the 14th of December 1992, killed in battle, unit Red Berets. Please

10 look at the place where this person was born?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Novi Sad Zabilje?

13 A. Yes, that's in Yugoslavia. That's a different state.

14 Q. Would you please look at this other record sheet now, Radovan

15 Djukic. Son of Jeposava [phoen]. Do you see that?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Do you see his place of birth?

18 A. Yes, Pakrac.

19 Q. Is that in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Do you see the date and place of death?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. 14th of December, 1992, wounded. And then it says died on the

24 8th of January at the Military Medical Academy in Belgrade. Do you see

25 the unit, 2nd Infantry Battalion, Red Berets?

Page 11374

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Does this correspond to what you were told by Zajko?

3 A. Yes. It's evident here that the Red Berets were fighting in the

4 area of Voljavica with our men from Voljavica and that some were killed in

5 that fighting.

6 Q. Did the leader of your group, Zajko, tell you this, that they

7 fought with them?

8 A. Yes. He told me that the Red Berets had participated in the

9 attack on Voljavica and that many had been killed there.

10 Q. Thank you?

11 A. Yes. If I may add, if I had been killed in Voljavica my parents

12 would why I had been killed defending my village. I don't know what their

13 motive was to fight for my house and my village.

14 Q. Very well. Thank you for your clarification, Witness.

15 Would you please now look at a video? This is P317, two out of

16 two. This is the second part of the video. And it's dated the 15th of

17 December, 1992.

18 And could you please stop at 1408.

19 [Videotape played]

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Witness, first of all, you can take a good look at this picture.

22 Do you recognise this area?

23 A. Yes. This is Voljavica, my village. I recognise this big house.

24 It's Ago Suljagic's [phoen] house.

25 Q. Do you recognise anyone in this picture? And if you do, could you

Page 11375

1 indicate that to the Chamber?

2 A. I recognise the person facing us. His name is Goran, known as

3 Gera. He's from a nearby Serbian village called Sikiric, and you can see

4 that he's holding a Motorola. I knew this man well before the war. He

5 was a good football player. And I played in the local soccer club, and we

6 often met at football games.

7 Q. Yes. Could you please continue playing the tape until 1458.

8 [Videotape played]

9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, unfortunately, we were

10 unable to get hold of a transcript. We will do so but I will not put many

11 questions about the content of the conversation. I will simply ask the

12 witness:

13 Q. Is this man being introduced as Svetozar Andric, the commander of

14 the assault brigade?

15 A. Yes, that's what we just heard on the tape.

16 Q. Is this the brigade --

17 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment because I wasn't anticipating this.

18 Yes, Ms. Sellers.

19 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, without having a transcript, there is

20 no way at this point in time that we can understand what is the content,

21 whether the question is being directed to the contents and can be answered

22 properly by the witness, and I would state that if the witness can say

23 something about just the image, I think that might be permissible. But at

24 this point to go into the content --

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, exactly. I would have also preferred the

Page 11376

1 question to have been a little bit different, asking the witness whether

2 he recognised this person, whether he knew him. But the problem that

3 Ms. Sellers has indicated is basically our problem as well. Because we

4 don't know what this person is supposed to have said.

5 So on the other hand, we have seen this before, and it's a rough

6 guess that I'm making but I would imagine that if we have seen it already,

7 as we certainly have, because I remember it, there probably -- there is in

8 existence already a transcript in English. So if we could dig that up and

9 put ourselves in a situation where we can follow or at least find out what

10 this gentleman with the cap on his head has just said, it will be -- it

11 will put us in a position where we can follow and understand at least.

12 Yes, Ms. Vidovic.

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, of course, we will get

14 the transcript. We talked to the witness until late the night before

15 yesterday, but what can be of assistance is to play the video back and to

16 ask the interpreters to interpret what is said here, if you feel it can be

17 of assistance, or we can get the transcript.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: I could easily live with that and I'm sure my two

19 colleagues could live with that too, but I don't know whether you would --

20 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, we would have no objection to that. I

21 guess there would be a question in terms of what was said at what point.

22 We see that there is no indication of the timing. I think that's a very

23 practical solution that we certainly could go forward with.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

25 THE INTERPRETER: Your Honour, the --

Page 11377

1 JUDGE AGIUS: I take it there are going to be questions on the

2 substance of the words said by this person on the video.

3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. I only put a

4 question to the witness as to whether he heard that this person was

5 introduced as Svetozar Andric, the commander of the assault brigade. I

6 will put no other questions about the content at this point in time.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you insist on your point at this juncture?

9 Because if that is the case, I mean, you can verify it at some later point

10 in time, and if you don't agree that this gentleman here on the screen was

11 indeed introduced as Mr. Andric, the commander of the assault brigade,

12 then you can raise the matter up with us, either directly or during your

13 cross-examination. I don't know. It's up to you.

14 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, we won't object if that's the sole

15 nature of the inquiry. I believe that we put our reservations on the

16 record. Thank you.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's proceed then. We don't need to see it again.

18 Thanks.

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well.

20 Q. Did you hear about the existence of this assault brigade before?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And in connection with this video that you saw today, you

23 recognised this person. You said that this was Goran Gera from Sikiric.

24 Did you observe his uniform on this video?

25 A. Yes, a camouflage uniform.

Page 11378

1 Q. When testifying yesterday and today, you said that you had a good

2 view of the area in front of you. Did you see any Serb fighters?

3 A. Yes. I could see them very well when they were moving from house

4 to house.

5 Q. What, or rather, were they in uniforms and, if so, what kind of

6 uniforms?

7 A. Most of them were wearing the same kind of uniform as Svetozar

8 Andric and this man called Gera are wearing. Quite a few of them had

9 olive-drab uniforms from the former JNA. So there were both kinds of

10 uniforms.

11 Q. When you say "this kind," can you say for the record what kind of

12 uniform it is?

13 A. Camouflage uniforms.

14 Q. Thank you. And in connection with this, I'll ask you the

15 following. If someone were to say that these people who participated in

16 the fighting with you in the Bjelovac area on the 14th of December, 1992

17 and several days after this were not in uniform, would that be correct?

18 A. It would be absolutely incorrect.

19 Q. Can you describe for Their Honours what happened on the following

20 days, the 15th, the 16th, the 17th, until the 22nd of December, 1992, but

21 please be brief. Can you describe the 15th of December, 1992? Where were

22 you and what happened to the best of your knowledge?

23 A. I was in Voljavica at the time, together with Zajko Alic's group.

24 We had set up a defence line at the exit to Voljavica, Kolovski [phoen],

25 Potok, in the direction of Zaluzje. We were exposed to fierce attacks by

Page 11379

1 the assault brigade. They were wearing special caps, Arkan's caps. They

2 were black caps. That's how we could tell them apart from others. But

3 there was no where for us to withdraw to. There was no where for us to go

4 from Voljavica, even if we were all killed.

5 Q. On the 14th of December, 1992, I don't mean you personally but the

6 men from your group, did you -- did you obtain a new quantity of weapons?

7 A. Yes. In Voljavica, our men captured several rifles in their

8 fighting with the Red Berets.

9 Q. And did you get any ammunition?

10 A. Yes. Their combat kits.

11 Q. What did weapons mean to you at the time in 1992? Can you tell

12 Their Honours?

13 A. It's like this: For us, at the time, weapons meant survival.

14 When you heard that a colleague of yours had been killed, we always

15 asked, "Is his rifle still there?" If they said yes, we would

16 say, "Well, at least we still have the rifle." There was no where for us

17 to get rifles from except those that we were able to capture.

18 Q. Thank you. In those days, the 14th, 15th, and 16th of December

19 1992, what weapons were the Serbs using in the fighting?

20 A. I'll tell you like this. The only thing they did not use was an

21 atomic bomb, an atom bomb. Everything that the former JNA had at its

22 disposal, including planes, artillery, PATs, PAMs, everything was used in

23 that area, absolutely everything.

24 Q. Thank you.

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the usher now show the witness

Page 11380

1 a new document? This is a document of the Bratunac Brigade dated the

2 16th of December, 1992. The document bears the number 04364690. And this

3 is a document addressed to the command of the Drina Corps.

4 Q. Witness, please take a good look at this document and I will read

5 out a part of the document. It says here, the date is the 16th of

6 December, take a good look, 1992. And I quote: "In enemy attacks on our

7 defence positions in the Bjelovac sector, we suffered the following

8 losses. In manpower, four irrecoverably and 21 recoverably. In materiel

9 and equipment, 1 tank, M56, one armoured transporter, M60, and the one

10 infantry combat vehicle. We lost all three when withdrawing."

11 Witness, would you please comment on this part of the document?

12 In the fighting you saw on the 14th, 15th and 16th, did these artillery

13 pieces participate in the fighting and where, if you know?

14 A. Yes. These artillery pieces were used in the fighting, in the

15 area of Loznicka Rijeka, Voljavica and Kunjarac, in these areas, and this

16 report actually corresponds to the situation on the ground.

17 Q. Is all this in the Bjelovac area?

18 A. Yes. It's all in the broader Bjelovac area.

19 Q. Yes. Look now at paragraph 3 of this report. It refers to the

20 following materiel being used up. It says: "7.62 millimetre bullets,

21 23.000 pieces."

22 Could you please tell Their Honours, first of all, for what kind

23 of weapon are 7.62 millimetre bullets used?

24 A. These bullets are used in automatic rifles. The calibre is 6.62,

25 and as you can see, 23.000 were used in the fighting. So you can imagine

Page 11381












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13 English transcripts.













Page 11382

1 what their strength was.

2 Q. Could you please look at line 3? 7.9 millimetre bullets, 2.000

3 pieces. What kind of weapon are these bullets used in?

4 A. These bullets are used in sniper rifles.

5 Q. Please look down the list to the end, and explain to Their Honours

6 what kind of weapons and artillery pieces are these bullets used in?

7 A. Well, you can see 12.7 millimetre bullets. That's for a PAM. 60

8 millimetre, 200 pieces, that's for a 60-millimetre mortar. 82-millimetre

9 mines, that's also for a mortar. You can see that 700 were used.

10 76-millimetre shells, that's for a B1 mountain gun. 105-millimetre shells

11 are used in howitzers. 122-millimetre shells, that's also used in a

12 howitzer. Those are Yugoslav-made howitzers. And then it's a bit

13 illegible. 100-millimetre shells, these are used for PATs and Pragas.

14 These are deadly weapons. 30-millimetre shells, they also had a multiple

15 rocket launcher, I can see. Zolja. Those are -- also Zolja. Those are

16 anti-artillery and anti-armour weapons. 100 aerial bombs. With 100

17 aerial bombs, you can destroy quite a good sized town.

18 Q. Based on your experience in those days, this report was written on

19 the 16th of December. It refers to the 14th to the 16th of December 1992

20 and the Bjelovac area. Based on your experience in the Bjelovac area at

21 that time, was it possible for this quantity of ammunition and projectiles

22 to have been used by the Serb units in the Bjelovac area?

23 A. Yes. It's absolutely correct that all this was used. This was

24 the most fierce fighting that had been waged in the area. I always say

25 that I went through three hells during the war: The hell of Likari,

Page 11383

1 Voljavica, and the road through the wood from Srebrenica, when Srebrenica

2 fell. But this and the later fighting in Voljavica was the worst.

3 Q. Thank you, Witness.

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, may this document be

5 given an exhibit number.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: So this document, which consists in two pages in the

7 B/C/S language, with ERN number 04364690, followed by 04364691 and the

8 corresponding translation into English consisting of two pages, with the

9 ERN number 04363690 is being tendered, received and marked as Defence

10 Exhibit D771.

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Witness, do you recall whether after the 16th of December 1992,

13 there followed other military activities conducted by the Serbs in the

14 Bjelovac area? Do you remember that?

15 A. Yes. I remember well, during the night they shelled our villages

16 in Pirici and Poloznik, in Voljavica where we had returned. There were

17 fierce counter-attacks during the day in the area of Sase. There was

18 fierce fighting there.

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, may the witness be

20 shown another document? This is document -- a document issued by the

21 Bratunac Brigade command, 04361569, and it's addressed to the command of

22 the Drina Corps, and it is signed by Lieutenant Colonel Svetozar Andric.

23 Q. Witness, this is a very short document I'm going to quote. It

24 states: "In the course of the night, open artillery fire on the following

25 features: Susnjari, Potocari, Pale, Jaglici, Poloznik, Pirici."

Page 11384

1 Are these the attacks that you were talking about earlier?

2 A. Yes. These are the attacks, because you can see up here that it

3 states in the course of the night. We had no peace there, either by night

4 or by day.

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could this document

6 please be given an exhibit number.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Madam Vidovic, and this document which

8 consists of two pages, one in B/C/S, the other one in English, being the

9 corresponding translation, marked with ERN number 04361569 is being

10 tendered, received and marked as Defence Exhibit D772.

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Witness, did you know the situation in Pirici very well during the

13 war, and particularly in December 1992?

14 A. Yes, I did.

15 Q. Did you know the situation right up until the Pirici area was

16 demilitarised, up until the time it fell actually?

17 A. Yes, I did.

18 Q. Was a single part of Pirici, a single house, held by the Serb army

19 right until the fall of Pirici, until 1993?

20 A. Not a single part of Pirici, and not a single house was in the

21 hands of the Serb forces.

22 Q. Could you please tell us, during December 1992, how far were the

23 closest Serb lines from Pirici? And you may use the map, if you wish.

24 A. It was about four kilometres in the area of Sikiric and

25 Jovanovici. These were the first or the front lines towards Pirici.

Page 11385

1 Q. How far were they, you said?

2 A. About four kilometres.

3 Q. Thank you very much.

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we now see

5 another video clip? And it will be Prosecution Exhibit P329. This is an

6 interview of Naser Oric, and if we can play it from 1410 to 1423.

7 Q. Witness, please, could you follow carefully what Naser Oric is

8 saying.

9 [Videotape played]

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Please, please --

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Again one moment, can we hear at least the

13 translation? Can we proceed with the video? Because I would imagine that

14 there is a translation immediately following so that we can follow too.

15 [Videotape played]

16 "This population was practically the most threatened because they

17 had absolutely no means of-- nothing they needed to live."

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thanks.

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Witness, you heard here Oric literally saying the Chetniks were

21 holding a part of Pirici. Please, did the Serb forces at any point until

22 March 1993 hold a single part of Pirici?

23 A. No, not a single metre of Pirici was in their hands.

24 Q. This information given by Oric on Pirici, is it correct, then?

25 A. No. This information cannot be correct.

Page 11386

1 Q. According to what you know, did Oric live and stay in that area?

2 A. No. He lived in Potocari. I'm indicating Potocari on the map and

3 I'm also indicating Pirici. And you can see the distance.

4 Q. And now I would like to ask you something else on this matter.

5 Please, you were in Zajko Alic's group. Did Mr. Alic or any one of you

6 write written reports on the situation in Pirici all the way until the

7 demilitarisation? Did you write any kind of reports about what was

8 happening in the fighting?

9 A. Nobody wrote any reports to anyone ever, nor did they submit any

10 reports to anybody. We didn't have a pencil even. How could we have done

11 that?

12 Q. So this information given by Oric here, is it correct? Did he

13 have the correct information?

14 A. No. This is absolutely incorrect. There were no communication

15 systems set up at the time in order to be able to say something about this

16 part or that part. Oric at the time was with his group in Potocari and

17 Potocari was important to him. He didn't know that.

18 Q. Just one moment, witness. Did your group have anything to do with

19 or did you have any contacts with Potocari, with Oric and his group? Did

20 you have radio communications?

21 A. No, no. There was no radio communication.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could the witness now

23 be shown another document.

24 Q. Witness, before we move to the next question, you said that Oric

25 with his group was in Potocari, they were important, and then you said "he

Page 11387

1 didn't know that." When you say "he didn't know that," what did you mean?

2 A. He didn't know that Pirici or that Mido Salihovic was in Pirici

3 with his group and that Pirici was never controlled by Serb forces until

4 March 1993, until the demilitarisation.

5 Q. Thank you very much.

6 MS. SELLERS: Your Honours, excuse me, I mean, the answer from our

7 point of view is speculation, unless Defence counsel can lay a basis of

8 why the witness believes he didn't know.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's clear that up. Perfectly legitimate.

10 Did you ever discuss with Mr. Oric this matter? What he knew and

11 what he didn't know?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, never.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: So on what basis do you state that he didn't know?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Based on the area where he was. If

15 you look at the map and see where Potocari is, and I'm indicating that,

16 and then if you look at where Pirici is, at the time --

17 JUDGE AGIUS: But the suggestion that is being put to you --

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And also I can add to that, if I

19 may.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, of course, please. Please finish what you have

21 to say.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At the time, we didn't have any

23 communications systems set up for one group to be able to talk to another

24 and to exchange information in order for him to be able to know this or to

25 receive this information. He was in Potocari with his group and he was

Page 11388

1 defending that part of Potocari, Bljeceva.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: I am not proceeding with this myself.

3 If you want, if you so wish, Ms. Sellers, you can ask the witness

4 questions on cross-examination on whether this is an assumption or whether

5 it's based on concrete information. I don't think you need to deal with

6 it yourself, unless you wish to, Ms. Sellers.

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I was just

8 going to say that this is really a matter for cross-examination.

9 But I just wanted to ask you one more thing.

10 Q. Please, this information, given by Oric, that Serbs were holding a

11 part of Pirici, is it correct or not?

12 A. It's absolutely incorrect.

13 Q. Witness, thank you very much.

14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Now I would like to have the witness

15 see --

16 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. We have to give this document a number,

17 no?

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. And this document which consists of two pages,

20 ERN number 04358072, one page in B/C/S, the other corresponding

21 translation into English, is being tendered, marked and received and

22 marked as Defence Exhibit D773.

23 Let's continue.

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Please, Witness, you received this document from the Bratunac

Page 11389

1 Brigade command dated 17th of December, 1992. Could you please look at

2 this document? It's very short. I will quote it to you. "Do all you can

3 to prevent Sase from falling. Make an urgent plan for the defence of Sase

4 and deliver it to the corps command. Commander Colonel Milenko

5 Zivanovic."

6 My question regarding this document is - this is a document from

7 the 17th of December, 1992 - is it true that the fighting on that day

8 expanded to include Sase?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Thank you very much.

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Now I would like the witness to be

12 shown another document. Defence Exhibit number D736.

13 Q. Before I put a question to you, I would like you first to tell us

14 whether on the 17th, 18th and the next few days or the following few days,

15 you were in the Sase area?

16 A. Yes. On the 17th, when our group leader, Zajko, called us and

17 told us that there was a large group of civilians that was practically

18 surrounded in an area of Sase, they would -- had begun to carry out salt.

19 This was industrial salt that the Serbs were using to put on the roads

20 because it was winter but this even meant a lot to people. So I went with

21 one group to try to get the people out of that encirclement because they

22 were practically caught. They were surrounded. There were people with

23 black caps there. I think that this assault brigade was actually there on

24 that occasion.

25 Q. I'm going to now read a part of this document from the 19th of

Page 11390












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Page 11391

1 December, 1992. It's paragraph 2 and it states: "Our forces, during

2 December 18-19, 1992, stabilised defence in the responsibility area of the

3 Bratunac Brigade. According to the report of the reconnaissance group

4 from the assault division, the Sase mine is whole and undamaged. A truck

5 was destroyed by artillery fire," and so on and so forth.

6 Witness, please, in connection with this I would like to ask you:

7 Is it true that the Serbs managed to consolidate their forces on the 18th

8 and the 19th? And to stabilise in the area of Sase?

9 A. Yes. Their forces were stronger in that period from the Andrici

10 direction. A small group of us were there in order to be able to control

11 that. Our task was to free the people, so the people managed to pull out

12 towards Zalazje on the 18th.

13 Q. As far as the Sase mine itself is concerned, did any of you armed

14 people enter inside other than these people that were bringing out the

15 salt?

16 A. No, absolutely not. People were actually just interested in the

17 food and only the salt at the time. The mine itself is something else,

18 with its equipment and everything.

19 Q. Please according to what you know, did the people leave the mine

20 untouched and undamaged?

21 A. Yes. The mine was undamaged other than the medical quarters of

22 the mine. The Serbs blew up the first aid medical station so that it

23 would not fall into our hands. I don't know. They probably had some kind

24 of warehouse there as well or a depot.

25 Q. Very well.

Page 11392

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would now like the witness to be

2 shown a part of Prosecution Exhibit P84. This is the war diary, and we

3 are going to be looking at page 02115098. This is in the Bosnian version.

4 It's actually on page 41 in the English translation, Your Honours, and

5 this is the record of -- or the minutes of the Srebrenica armed forces

6 staff meeting held on the 22nd of December, 1992.

7 Q. Witness, please, I would like to draw your attention to this first

8 section where it says: "Naser opened the meeting."

9 I'm going to read this sentence to you. "We liberated the mine

10 but it would have been better if we had not. It has been dispersed."

11 First of all, witness, could you please tell the Trial Chamber

12 what this word "rastjeran" [B/C/S spoken] would mean?

13 A. I would interpret it to mean as being pillaged, everything had

14 been taken away, and destroyed.

15 Q. Did something like that happen with the Sase mine until the --

16 December 1992?

17 A. Well, they were controlling most of that part of the mine, the

18 Serbs. And for us to be able to take something out of the mine or the

19 people, meaning the equipment, the machinery, we would have needed very

20 big trucks. We are talking about compressors and so on, other

21 installations. All we were interested in was the food.

22 Q. This information provided by Oric at the meeting on the 22nd of

23 December, 1992, would it be true?

24 A. No. I state that it is not true.

25 Q. Thank you very much.

Page 11393

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Now I would like the usher to --

2 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. Because I have been taught to make a

3 very strict distinction between true and not -- and correct. I think

4 rather than using the descriptive adjective "true" it's the case of using

5 the adjective "correct." I think it makes more -- because otherwise if

6 you say it's true, you are specifically intending that if the report -- if

7 the diary is correct, then Oric may have told a lie. If you say that the

8 information contained there is not correct, you're not involving your

9 client in anything. This is the difference that -- it's up to you. I

10 mean, I don't want to interfere. But I think the word, the adjective you

11 should use is "correct" and not "true."

12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we have been having

13 problems with that the entire time. I use the word "tacan," correct, and

14 these are the terms I'm using, "tacan," "netacan," correct, incorrect, but

15 I cannot talk at the same time and follow the transcript. I actually used

16 the expression "is this correct?"

17 JUDGE AGIUS: That explains it and I'm entirely satisfied. Thank

18 you.

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Witness, please, could you look at a new document? It's a

21 document by the command of the Drina Corps dated February 23rd, 1993.

22 The document by Colonel Milenko Zivanovic and it bears the number

23 04270153. I am going to quote some parts of this document. The first

24 part, first of all, it states: "Urgent, the command of the Bratunac

25 Brigade informed us that members of the special brigade Panthers from

Page 11394

1 Bijeljina, have been systematically stealing goods and equipment from the

2 Sase mine, which they have been driving off in an unknown direction, and

3 storing in warehouses in Bratunac that are under their control, in order

4 to remove them from this area. The commander of the brigade is under

5 pressure and is being threatened with force in order to permit or allow

6 unhindered transfer of stolen equipment and assets without which the mine

7 will not be able to function."

8 Then I'm going to quote the first part of paragraph 3, where it

9 states: "We note that the Sase mine was liberated and captured by the

10 2nd Battalion of the Bratunac Brigade and that after it was captured,

11 members of the Panthers units began to steal the already mentioned

12 property."

13 And, please, first of all, do you agree that the command of the

14 Drina Corps is a command of the Serb forces? Would you please reply?

15 A. Yes. This document --

16 Q. Just let me ask you: Is this the command of the Serb forces that

17 is sending this report?

18 A. Yes, yes, yes.

19 Q. These Panthers from Bijeljina, are these Muslim or Serb forces?

20 A. These are Serb forces which were in the course of a -- which in

21 the course of a winter offensive expelled us.

22 Q. And this document, according to what you saw over there and

23 experienced over there, does this document confirm that after the events

24 we described in December 1992, this mine remained untouched and that the

25 equipment and all the capacities remained whole?

Page 11395

1 A. Yes. This confirms all of the things that I stated earlier.

2 Q. Thank you very much.

3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could this document be

4 given an exhibit number.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. This document which consists of two pages, one

6 B/C/S and the other the corresponding translation into English, with ERN

7 number 04270153 in both cases is being tendered, received and marked as

8 Defence Exhibit D774.

9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Once again, that information given by Oric at the meaning [as

11 interpreted]; is that correct or incorrect?

12 A. It's incorrect.

13 Q. Thank you very much. Now, please, I would like to ask you

14 something else. These battles in the area of Andrici, Sase, Kostanovice,

15 Neskovici, Voljavica, Pobrdje which you mentioned yesterday, how long did

16 they last?

17 A. They lasted until the 23rd of December, when the assault brigade,

18 for reasons not known to us, withdrew via Andrici towards Pobrdje and

19 opened a front towards Glogova, and they continued to shell us

20 systematically in that period.

21 Q. Thank you. Please, if someone were to state that in a vehicle, a

22 Mercedes model vehicle, they came from Podloznik to Srebrenica using the

23 asphalt road, via Bjelovac, Biljaca, Kostanovice, Sase, Zalazje, would

24 that be correct?

25 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the date.

Page 11396

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. On the 18th of December, 1992. I said it, Your Honour.

3 A. It would be very difficult to do it now, and never mind then. And

4 I will show you exactly why.

5 Podloznik, the asphalt road is just the road from Bratunac - I'm

6 indicating it on the map - towards Skelani, along the Drina. In the

7 sector of Jovanovici, a road forks off towards Loznik. There was some

8 kind of road up to Loznica but I don't know, going up in that area, there

9 was some just goat paths. It was difficult for a horse to cover that

10 road, never mind for a Mercedes. That's one reason why it was impossible

11 to pass through there in a vehicle.

12 The second reason, as far as I understood your question, was the

13 18th of December. In that period, and I will indicate it on the map again

14 showing where that vehicle would have to pass. There is Bjelovac. The

15 intersection leads to Neskovici, Kostanovice, Sase, and then goes down

16 towards Srebrenica. In that period, such fighting was going on in the

17 Neskovici, Kostanovice, Andrici area - I've already indicated that - and

18 around Sase, that not even an armoured train could pass because they were

19 controlling that road.

20 The third thing or the third reason why it wouldn't be able to

21 pass is that here at the turning in Bjelovac towards Bileca, the Serbs

22 were actually controlling that road from Serbia, using artillery.

23 Whatever appeared on that road, they would -- I think that there was a

24 report that they hit a truck. I think that that happened here at the

25 turning off in Bjelovac towards Bileca. This information is simply

Page 11397

1 impossible. It would still be impossible because the international

2 organisations are trying to make some kind of roads towards Podloznik and

3 Loznica, but these villages are such that it's very difficult to do

4 something like that.

5 Q. Thank you very much, Witness.

6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown

7 another exhibit. It's Defence Exhibit D258.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I may add something to that,

9 these goat paths in Loznica, these roads also were blocked with downed,

10 felled trees, also armoured vehicles, and there were lots of barricades as

11 a result of people felling trees. I saw that with my eyes.

12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Just one moment. Who blocked the roads towards Podloznik? You

14 said the road were blocked. Who blocked the roads?

15 A. The people from Podloznik. Semso Husic with his group. They had

16 to cut the trees and have them fall in order to protect themselves from

17 tanks and armoured vehicle. It was the only way to do it at the time.

18 Q. Thank you very much. Could you please now look at this Defence

19 Exhibit? This is a record of a soldier's death, and the number is

20 01321125. Maric, Stanoje, son of Rade, from Strpci, killed on the 22nd of

21 December, 1992, in Voljavica Pobrdje, in battle of the unit. The unit is

22 the Krajina Battalion. Please, does this document confirm what you've

23 said a little bit earlier, that even on the 22nd of December, 1992

24 fighting was still going on there?

25 A. Yes.

Page 11398

1 Q. Please, you told us that at one point you came to Voljavica. When

2 was this?

3 A. You mean in this period during the fighting?

4 Q. Yes.

5 A. In this period of the 22nd of December, 1992.

6 A. I came to Voljavica on the night of the 14th and 15th. That's

7 when I came down to Voljavica, and I found -- met with Zajko Alic and our

8 people.

9 Q. And did I understand you properly that were you moving around in

10 that area in fighting as you described?

11 A. Yes. I was in all of these areas.

12 Q. Please, could you describe to the Trial Chamber what you saw in

13 Voljavica after the Serb forces withdrew? You said that the assault

14 brigade withdrew. Could you please describe to the Trial Chamber what you

15 saw over there then at that time?

16 A. Before I looked at footage of Vukovar, you know, Voljavica is a

17 large inhabited settlement, a few houses next to the road remained intact.

18 Everything else was burned, looted, demolished. You would see a elderly

19 man, and when they came back and saw that they would start crying. People

20 came back. They wanted to make that area habitable again. And it was a

21 catastrophe what we found back there.

22 Q. Did you find the remains of human bodies?

23 A. I recall very well in Zaluzje, in the house of Okran [phoen]

24 Mujic, I'm not sure about the last name, our people found a pile of burned

25 bodies and bones and we took that regularly and buried in the nearby

Page 11399












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 11400

1 meadow.

2 Q. Witness, now I would like you to look at another document. It's

3 Exhibit -- it's a new document, and it bears the number 04363086. And

4 it's a document by the command of the Bratunac Brigade dated February

5 the 2nd, 1993, sent to the command of the Drina Corps, and it's

6 entitled, "Regular combat report."

7 Witness, I would like to draw your attention to item 2 of the

8 document. It says: "Our forces defending positions with artillery

9 support launching active fire in the direction of Zaluzje, Bjelovac. On

10 other directions, reconnaissance was carried out. Replacement between

11 battalions of the 6th Krajina Brigade is in progress."

12 Witness, do you recall the beginning of February 1992?

13 A. I will remember that February for as long as I live. These were

14 the most difficult moments any of us in the area experienced. As I can

15 see by the date, it was the beginning of the winter offensive, when

16 besides the units from the Bratunac Brigade, corps of the regular JNA army

17 participated. Survival was an art in that area.

18 Q. Witness, my question was February 1993. What you are referring to

19 refers to February 1992.

20 A. 1993? The offensive began late January or early February.

21 Q. The offensive you're mentioning, it says, active operations in the

22 Zaluzje-Bjelovac direction. Did you participate in these events?

23 A. Yes. I was there at that line every day. The Serbs had a

24 scorched-earth policy at the time. They didn't use a lot of infantry.

25 They didn't pay attention to which house was Serb and which Muslim. They

Page 11401

1 simply leveled everything in front of them. The area was quite flat and

2 suddenly you would see five or six tanks systematically targeting houses.

3 We were separated from Serbia only by the River Drina, and there is a road

4 going from Ljubovija to Bajina Basta which was full of tanks. They didn't

5 select houses. They simply targeted each and every one.

6 Q. Have you any idea as to why they would be shooting at Serb

7 Bjelovac?

8 A. At that time, it didn't matter to them. What mattered to them was

9 driving us away from the Drina, away from their border, because the idea

10 of a greater Serbia meant that they had to drive the Muslims away as far

11 as possible from the River Drina, and that area.

12 Q. Do you recall whether that area was targeted with incendiary

13 ammunition?

14 A. Yes, that area was targeted with all kinds of means, artillery

15 pieces, PATs, PAMs, planes bombing again. There was nothing that was not

16 used.

17 Q. Thank you.

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, may this document be

19 admitted? If this document can be given an exhibit number. And the

20 witness keeps saying, January and February, 1993, whereas in the record,

21 it says 1992.

22 Q. Witness, could you tell us again, are you talking about January

23 and February 1993?

24 A. Yes, yes, yes. The beginning of the winter offensive, and it

25 lasted until the demilitarisation of Srebrenica.

Page 11402

1 Q. Very well. Thank you.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Madam Vidovic, for pointing this

3 inaccuracy out. This document which consists of two pages, one in B/C/S

4 and the corresponding translation into English being the other, with ERN

5 number 04363086 is being tendered, received and marked as Defence

6 Exhibit D775.

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Would the usher now show the witness

8 Defence document P37, or rather, I apologise, Prosecution document P37?

9 Your Honours, I will now move on to another topic and I will show

10 the witness a few more documents.

11 Q. P37.

12 A. Excuse me, may I add something about this offensive? You often

13 ask me whether they used incendiary ammunition. You don't have to be an

14 expert on artillery pieces. Anyone who was in the war knows that every

15 artillery piece can set fire, that they have cumulative projectiles which

16 both destroy and set fire to buildings. When in Sarajevo the Serbs used

17 incendiary projectiles to set fire to the town hall in Sarajevo, you don't

18 need any special or specialised knowledge to know that every -- every

19 projectile can both destroy and set fire to a building.

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Thank you, Witness, for this clarification.

22 Could you please now focus on this document, P37, which bears the

23 number 01839608? Do you have this before you?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. This is allegedly an order issued by the Srebrenica OS commander

Page 11403

1 on the 22nd of December, 1992, and it says the Srebrenica OS commander

2 hereby issues the following order. All soldiers from the Likari village

3 area are to be placed under the command of Avdo Beli and sent to Voljavica

4 to help out. This order is to be carried out immediately.

5 First of all, in connection with this, I'll ask you the following:

6 Did you know Avdo Beli? Who was he? Can you tell Their Honours that?

7 A. Yes, I knew the guy. He was born in Likari. He lived in Likari.

8 He was not in any group with us. He didn't have any weapons. This was a

9 young man, psychologically unstable. Our fighters didn't like him much

10 because he was always coming and asking them to give him cigarettes. He

11 had a house in Likari. He lived there but he never had any weapons. And

12 this is like a joke at Oric's expense. I don't know whether Oric knew

13 this young man. One shouldn't speak badly of the deceased. Avdo

14 committed suicide when Srebrenica fell. He killed himself in Tuzla.

15 First he killed his wife and then he killed himself. And it's not nice to

16 say bad things about someone who is dead.

17 Q. This man, Avdo Beli, at any point, was he a fighter or a

18 commander?

19 A. Please, if you show this to any fighter who knew Avdo Beli, he

20 will think this is a joke.

21 Q. In December 1992, as you were actually in Likari, who was the

22 leader of your group? And who was the leader of your group until the

23 demilitarisation?

24 A. Our leader was Professor Zajko Alic; he was a teacher. After

25 Osman Malagic's death, in Likari and Voljavica, right up to the

Page 11404

1 demilitarisation, we had no other leader except for Zajko Alic.

2 Q. Did you ever hear anybody mentioning Avdo Beli being appointed

3 commander?

4 A. Nobody ever mentioned any such thing.

5 Q. Would you please look at the date on this document, the 22nd of

6 December, 1992, the guys from Likari, where were they then at that time?

7 A. Well, you've observed this well. From the 14th, we were already

8 in Voljavica. We were there on the 22nd.

9 Q. Well, would you have received this order then?

10 A. No way.

11 Q. Mr. Malagic, can this document be considered correct?

12 A. This is incorrect.

13 Q. Thank you.

14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Would the usher now show the witness

15 Exhibit P89.

16 Q. This is a form entitled, "Attack on Bijelovac." The number is

17 02621553.

18 Witness, would you look at the last page right away? First, look

19 through the document and then look at the last page. Could you please

20 tell us, do you have the impression that this is all in the same

21 handwriting, the entire document?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Look at the last page where it says, in the bottom half, that the

24 date this was filled in was the 21st of August, 1997 in Zivinice. And

25 then below that, there is a name, Salkan Butkovic, who was the researcher.

Page 11405

1 Do you know this person?

2 A. Yes. He comes from Zivinice, not from Srebrenica.

3 Q. Do you have any knowledge as to whether this person knew anything

4 about the attack?

5 A. I knew this person, but he never contacted us.

6 Q. So you can speak about yourself and your acquaintances?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Please, look at person number 2, Mirsad Dudic. Did you know this

9 person?

10 A. Yes. In Srebrenica, he was the leader of a group from Osmace.

11 Q. Please, to the best of your knowledge, did Dudic participate in

12 these events that you described starting on the 14th of December onwards?

13 A. No. He didn't take part in that fighting. I know that for a fact

14 because I knew him and I talked to him later on.

15 Q. When you look further down, Nedzad Delic, it says revisers of the

16 information, Nedzad Delic. Does he come from your area?

17 A. He comes from Zivinice. He was a major in the tank battalion. I

18 know that man well. He is from Zivinice, not from our area.

19 Q. Look at the sources of data. It says Ramiz Becirevic. At the

20 time described by you, between the 14th and the 22nd, or the 23rd, was he

21 in the area and could he have been a source of information about these

22 events?

23 A. No. He's a person from Suceska. Mirsad and Ramiz, they were far,

24 far away from Voljavica. Ramiz Becirevic could not have been a relevant

25 source of information about these events.

Page 11406

1 Q. Look at this next person, Hamdija Hanolovic. Is he a person from

2 your area?

3 A. I never heard of this person. This is the first time I've heard

4 of him. I would have known had he participated in the events there.

5 Q. Please look at the first page of this document. Under 4, it

6 says: "The Defence liberation unit in charge of combat activities during

7 its execution." Does it say that? That it was part of?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Again, we have a mistranslation here. It says that this was the

10 person in charge. The original is [B/C/S spoken]. It says underneath

11 what you said here, that 1.600 men participated, and then if you look at

12 the third page, behind this, it says: "Manpower, 1.600 men." According

13 to what you saw, would this be correct?

14 A. It would be absolutely incorrect. There might have been up to 400

15 fighters in the entire war theatre there, including Bjelovac, Sase,

16 Voljavica.

17 Q. And then look below this, where it says: "The means used, 1.000

18 automatic rifles." Was something like this possible?

19 A. It was impossible. Had we had this, we would have completed the

20 fighting much sooner. You have to capture everything. There were perhaps

21 up to 150 automatic rifles. The others were all old rifles, handmade some

22 of them.

23 Q. Look further down here. It says PAP, M48, and then it says, MBs.

24 Are these mortars?

25 A. Yes, MB, yes.

Page 11407

1 Q. And artillery?

2 A. MB and artillery.

3 Q. Did you have mortars and artillery at all at that time?

4 A. For someone to fire a mortar, do you know what the preconditions

5 have to be? It's not enough to have a mortar and a projectile. You have

6 to have a trained crew. You have to have someone who can target, who can

7 perform the various tasks. You have to have an original map in order to

8 calculate. You cannot fire from -- you have to have a plotter. So those

9 are the prerequisites, and we could not have done anything like that under

10 those conditions.

11 Q. So did you have artillery and mortars there?

12 A. No way.

13 Q. Thank you.

14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have only a few

15 documents left. I see that now is a convenient time for a break.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. We'll have a 30-minute break starting from

17 now. Thank you.

18 --- Recess taken at 12.35 p.m.

19 --- On resuming at 1.15 p.m.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Sorry for keeping you waiting but as I told you

21 before, we are -- we were discussing various matters that need to be

22 decided and of course we haven't finished either.

23 So let's finish, Madam Vidovic, please. Take your time, of

24 course, but...

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 11408












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13 English transcripts.













Page 11409

1 Q. Witness, please answer my questions as briefly as you possibly can

2 because we have very little time. I will dwell a while longer on this

3 document. Please look at the page bearing number 02621555, which speaks

4 about ammunition. It says here: "Bullets, 150.762. Can you comment on

5 this?

6 A. Yes. Only had we had an ammunitions factory there could we have

7 had this amount of ammunition. It's a huge amount.

8 Q. Let me just ask you, does this document as a whole reflect correct

9 presentation of the events in Bjelovac?

10 A. No.

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness now be shown

12 Exhibit P13.

13 Q. This is an alleged document of the armed forces staff of

14 Srebrenica dated the 11th of December, 1992. Allegedly it's an order

15 issued by Naser Oric. The ERN number is 01239528.

16 Witness, I will read the document to you. "The commander of the

17 armed forces of Srebrenica issues the following order." The date is the

18 11th of December 1992. "All members of the armed forces of Srebrenica

19 from Voljavica, Zaluzje, Biljaca and Bjelovac are to be transferred from

20 their home units to the unit commanded by Dzananovic, Hazim. The order is

21 to be executed immediately, and those who fail to comply with it must be

22 reported to the military police."

23 In connection with this I'll ask you the following. First of

24 all, you told us that you were in Likari with a group of lads from

25 Voljavica and in the area of Zaluzje and Bjelovac; is this correct?

Page 11410

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Did you personally know Hazim Dzananovic?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. From when?

5 A. I knew Hazim from before the war. He was a neighbour of mine and

6 a friend. He arrived in Srebrenica sometime in August when a group of

7 armed men arrived with Munir Sabanovic [phoen] from Tuzla and he joined us

8 in Likari at the time.

9 Q. So he was in the same group in Likari as you?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Were you close to him?

12 A. Yes, very close.

13 Q. Do you remember before the events in Bjelovac in December 1992,

14 did you hear that such an order arrived in Likari?

15 A. No, never.

16 Q. Did Hazim Dzananovic in December 1992 become, or was he appointed,

17 some sort of commander?

18 A. No. Our leader at that time was Zajko Alic. Hazim Dzananovic was

19 a fighter like the rest of us. He was there with me and many others.

20 Even had Zajko been killed at the time, Dzananovic would certainly not

21 have replaced him. It would have been either myself or Fikret Aluhic

22 [phoen] or one of us.

23 Q. That's your conclusion, but let me ask you this: In December

24 1992, was Hazim Dzananovic appointed a kind of commander or did he

25 continue fighting with you as he had up to that time?

Page 11411

1 A. He remained an ordinary fighter and remained with us throughout

2 this time. He was not a commander of any kind.

3 Q. And who led your group until the demilitarisation?

4 A. I've already said, Zajko Alic, who was a teacher.

5 Q. Was there another group of people from that area, from Voljavica,

6 Zaluzje, Biljaca?

7 A. Yes. I said that in Pirici, there was one of our groups stationed

8 and, it was Midhat Salihovic from Biljaca who was their leader.

9 Q. I will now ask you the following: Throughout the time until the

10 demilitarisation, was there a unit formed such as a battalion or some

11 other large unit, headed by Hazim Dzananovic?

12 A. No, no, nothing like that. We didn't even have a proper company,

13 if you know what number of men a company comprises. No, no way.

14 Q. So forget about a battalion. Was there any large unit headed by

15 Hazim Dzananovic established before demilitarisation?

16 A. No, no such group was ever formed.

17 Q. There is a statement in this document as follows: "Those who fail

18 to comply with the record must be reported to the military police." Do

19 you see it?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. How could you comment on this, please?

22 A. Our people didn't need a military police at the time to go home.

23 We could hardly wait to go to Voljavica. We could hardly wait to go down

24 there. We didn't need to have the military police send us there.

25 Q. Is this document correct?

Page 11412

1 A. It's absolutely incorrect.

2 Q. Thank you.

3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Would the usher now show the witness

4 document P80. P80.

5 Q. This is allegedly a document of the armed forces staff of

6 Srebrenica dated the 19th of September, 1993, and its number is 02075843.

7 Witness, would you look at the front page of this document,

8 please? It says here, it's dated the 19th of September 1993, and on

9 page 1, it says: "First formation structure."

10 And then it goes on to say, on the 20th of May, in Bajramovici,

11 the Srebrenica TO staff was formed from 17th of April, 1992 to mid-October

12 1992, the first regional units of a regional character were formed under

13 the auspices of the TO, namely TO Potocari. And then look at bullet

14 point 6. It says Podrinje, platoon Osmanovimomci, Osman's lads, Commander

15 Osman Malagic; from the 12th of July, 1992, Commander Zajko Alic. You

16 said that you were part of this group of Osman's lads, and that Zajko was

17 your commander. Did I understand you correctly?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Were you ever known as the Podrinje platoon?

20 A. No.

21 Q. How many men were in Osman's lads until October 1992?

22 A. About 25, thereabouts.

23 Q. At that time, were you part of the Territorial Defence of

24 Potocari?

25 A. No. We gave ourselves the name of Osman's lads, or Osman's group.

Page 11413

1 Q. Did you consider the command in Potocari to be your command?

2 A. No way. For somebody to command us, they would have had to give

3 us equipment, boots, ammunition, rifles. We had what we had. Osman was

4 our only leader. We loved and respected him.

5 Q. And the group in Potocari, what did you call that?

6 A. We most often referred to it as Naser's men.

7 Q. Could you now turn the page, please? And look here near the

8 bottom, it says: "Second formation structure." And it mentions some kind

9 of operative staff. On the 14th of October, 1992, and in the fourth line

10 from the bottom, it says: "Chief of the department for engineering, Hazim

11 Dzananovic."

12 Let me ask you first. In your area, did you ever hear of any

13 other person named Hazim Dzananovic apart from the man we mentioned?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Hazim Dzananovic, from the 14th of October 1992, did he leave

16 Likari or was he with you?

17 A. I state with the great degree of certainty that throughout the

18 whole period of demilitarisation that he remained with us in this group.

19 Q. Do you have information that he became chief of the engineering

20 department?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Could you please turn to the next page now. This is on page 4 in

23 the English translation of the document, and it states there: "On the

24 14th of October, 1992, the operations staff and the Srebrenica armed

25 forces staff were united into one joint staff called the Srebrenica OS

Page 11414

1 staff with the following composition."

2 Look at the second part that begins with Naser Oric. Then in

3 line 6 it states: "Hazim Dzananovic, chief of engineering."

4 So I will ask you again: Do you have information that this Hazim

5 Dzananovic that we are talking about worked for some kind of staff in

6 Srebrenica or was he with you at Likari?

7 A. He was with us at Likari, with the group that had Zajko Alic as a

8 leader and he never left the group until the demilitarisation.

9 Q. In the course of 1992, until the demilitarisation, did you ever

10 hear about an engineering platoon existing in the entire Srebrenica

11 region?

12 A. No. I never heard of it. I never heard of an engineering branch

13 existing in --

14 Q. In the Srebrenica area?

15 A. In the Srebrenica area. Well, you know what engineering is.

16 Q. Well, could you please briefly explain that to the Trial Chamber?

17 A. Well, we would need to have the machinery for repairing bridges,

18 making pontoon bridges, road construction, work with explosives. These

19 are the engineering units. All of the developed armies of the world would

20 have such units.

21 Q. Thank you very much. Could you please now turn to page 02075847,

22 and this is on page 5 of the English translation, and we are now talking

23 about the formation establishment. Now, could you please -- the formation

24 structure, in section 3. And now can we look at first paragraph where it

25 says the Independent Voljavica Battalion based in Voljavica, Commander

Page 11415

1 Dzananovic from the 11th of December.

2 Now, if we can look at the following: "The following units have

3 been formed as part of the Srebrenica armed forces." But before that, can

4 I ask you the following? Did you have a mortar battery in the course of

5 1992 in Srebrenica?

6 A. I said earlier that we didn't have any mortars or any artillery

7 weapons, and I also talked about the conditions necessary in order for you

8 to have that. You need to have optical devices, periscopes, optical

9 consoles. The right equipment for plotting elements. This is something

10 that we never had in these -- in these parts.

11 Q. Can you see in the same part of the document where Mr. Hazim

12 Dzananovic is being treated as commander of the engineers and then also

13 there is the mortar battery there. Was any of this correct? Was he in

14 that period appointed as commander, commandeer, or commandant, either of

15 the artillery or of the mortars battery or anything else?

16 A. I will repeat again, throughout the whole time Hazim Dzananovic

17 was with us. He was fighting in the area of Likari to Voljavica right

18 until the demilitarisation.

19 As far as I can see, he's being registered in two places according

20 to this establishment, in the engineering and also in this other battery.

21 In the same document he's being mentioned in two establishment posts, so

22 this document seems to contradict itself. You cannot appoint one person

23 to be performing two duties.

24 Q. Thank you very much, Witness, for this clarification.

25 Could you now please look at page 02075845. In the English, this

Page 11416

1 is again on page 4. And if you can please look at the Gostilj Battalion,

2 based in Gostilj, Commander Salih Pasalic, 4th Company -- comprising four

3 companies and one independent platoon and then look where it says

4 4th Company, based in Srebrenica, Podrinska [phoen], Osman's lads,

5 Voljavica, Commander Mevludin Muhic. How can you comment on this part of

6 the document, first of all on this term Gostilj Battalion?

7 A. Well, there was no such battalion in that area, Gostilj is a small

8 settlement and it would be hard to form a company there. They had a group

9 of fighters that used to come to us at Likari. However, we didn't have

10 any links with that group.

11 Q. This group of yours, Osman's lads, until demilitarisation, was it

12 ever under the command of Salih Pasalic?

13 A. No, never. I said who the leaders were. Until Osman was killed,

14 it was Osman Malagic. After Osman was killed, it was Zajko Alic and no

15 one else.

16 Q. Please, was Salih Pasalic perhaps some kind of higher, superior

17 command in relation to Mr. Zajko, for example?

18 A. I don't believe that he was a leader in Gostilj even. I know that

19 man and I know other leaders who in Gostilj, so I don't believe that he

20 was that.

21 Q. So was he a superior command in relation to Mr. Zajko?

22 A. No, no, never.

23 Q. Another thing: Was your company ever based as they say that in

24 the document, that company, actually your group, was it ever based in

25 Srebrenica in October 1992 at the time that this document is talking

Page 11417












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 11418

1 about?

2 A. It states here, company based in Srebrenica, and in brackets it

3 says Osmanovimomci. There were always between 20 and 30 of us. A company

4 is more than that. It can comprise of a hundred men. We never were based

5 in Srebrenica. Podloznik, the first destination. Second one was Likari.

6 And the third one was in Voljavica. And it was in that area until the

7 demilitarisation.

8 Q. And another thing about this, was the commander of that group

9 Mevludin Muhic ever?

10 A. No. He was a fighter in the same way that I was and Dzananovic.

11 Q. Was he ever in some kind of superior command position in relation

12 to your group?

13 A. No, never.

14 Q. And now could you please look at what it says under roman

15 numeral III, the third establishment formation. It's on page 5 in Bosnian

16 and on page 7 in English, and it says, I quote: "From mid-December 1992

17 until now, the following units have been formed within the Srebrenica

18 armed forces, Independent Voljavica Battalion based in Voljavica."

19 And then it says: Commander, from 11th of December until 1992

20 until 15th of February, 1992, acting commander Midhat Salihovic."

21 And then above the word commander, the words H. Dzananovic are

22 written in hand. Do you see that?

23 A. Yes, I do.

24 Q. And then below that, four companies are noted with Commander Ibro

25 Smajic, Mevludin Muhic, Ramo Husic Jusuf Rizvanovic, and then again Midhat

Page 11419

1 Salihovic as a commander but now of the independent platoon -- independent

2 battalion based in Bileca. How could you comment this first part that

3 talks about 1st Independent Platoon based in Bileca? First of all, before

4 the demilitarisation, did you have anything that was called the Voljavica

5 Battalion? And in particular, did you have that before these events

6 relating to Voljavica that you described?

7 A. No, never. I think I said in my testimony what we had, what kind

8 of a group it was, the size of it.

9 Q. When you say "never," you mean until the demilitarisation?

10 A. Yes, that is correct.

11 Q. Thank you very much. As far as December 1992 is concerned, and

12 January 1993, and I'm sorry that I have to insist on that but I will have

13 to ask you again, was Dzananovic or Salihovic your commander?

14 A. Neither one. Neither of them was a commander or any kind of

15 leader. Alic, Zajko was always there after Osman was killed. Until the

16 demilitarisation. As far as I could notice here, they mentioned that

17 Midhat is the commander of a battalion and then again they have him as a

18 commander of a platoon. Well, you know what the difference between a

19 battalion and a platoon is, and they are mentioning the same person at the

20 head of two different establishment formations.

21 Underneath I can see where it says reconnaissance squad based in

22 Voljavica Commander Muharem Husic, I know him. Husic was never in

23 Voljavica. He was in Hakija's group always in Srebrenica. So I don't

24 know who drafted this document but it does not reflect the situation on

25 the ground.

Page 11420

1 Q. Thank you very much. When we are talking about Midhat Salihovic,

2 where was he, where was his group?

3 A. Salihovic, Midhat, before he came to Voljavica was in Piricko Brdo

4 with that group of his. Later he was in Biljaca. He had his own

5 independent group of about 20 men.

6 Q. Please, regarding this document, I have a few more questions. In

7 your group, before demilitarisation, did you make any kind of written

8 record about the people or of the people who had rifles?

9 A. No, nothing was ever written at that time, until the

10 demilitarisation.

11 Q. Did you have typewriters? Well, did you have computers, first of

12 all?

13 A. You must be joking. No, we didn't have that.

14 Q. Did you have typewriters?

15 A. We simply didn't have anything.

16 Q. Paper, pencils?

17 A. Please, we didn't have anything.

18 Q. Thank you. Please, so what happened after the demilitarisation?

19 A. After the demilitarisation, and after the conflict ceased, I

20 remember that there was some kind of record taking. I didn't take part in

21 that actively. It was important to me to survive and to find food. There

22 was a certain record made of people who had come to Voljavica, Likari and

23 so on.

24 Q. Now I would like to ask you something. What you had until the

25 demilitarisation relating to Voljavica, and after the demilitarisation,

Page 11421

1 right until the fall of Srebrenica, since you're a soldier and today you

2 are a professional soldier, and you know what a battalion is, please,

3 until the fall of Srebrenica, you from Voljavica, did you ever have a

4 battalion in the military sense of that word?

5 A. We never had any kind of battalion. A battalion is a large

6 military establishment comprising four or five companies and having

7 attached platoons. It has mortars, its logistics, it has engineering

8 support. So it has everything that a military organisation like that

9 would need to function independently in a certain area. Its kitchens. A

10 battalion is a large military establishment or formation.

11 Q. Did you ever have that?

12 A. No, we didn't even have a company.

13 Q. Now, for a minute I would like to take you back to document P80.

14 Do you have it, this document, P80?

15 I'm sorry, I forgot. Yeah, I think the witness does have it.

16 Do you have that document in front of you?

17 A. No, this is the formation establishment.

18 Q. Yes, yes, that's that document that the witness has the document,.

19 Please. Could you look at this document, keep it with you. What

20 I want to ask you is the following: Does it reflect the actual situation

21 on the ground, all that we have said so far?

22 A. No, not in any case.

23 Q. Well, let's leave the document with the witness for a moment. I

24 would like to go back to it in a minute. But now could you please show

25 the witness document P94? P94.

Page 11422

1 Witness, I would like to draw your attention to page R0142886.

2 That's page 11.

3 A. I don't have that document.

4 Q. P94. Could you please look at?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Witness, please --

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is on page 11 in

8 the Bosnian and in English it's on page 8.

9 Q. Could you please look at the part that says "Independent Battalion

10 Voljavica." And again it is says that from the 11th of December, 1992

11 until the 14th of January 1993, Dzananovic, Hazim, and then from the 14th

12 of January 1993 until the 16th of February 1993, Midhat Salihovic. Is

13 this correct?

14 A. No. It's not.

15 Q. Now, please could you again look at document P80, the formation

16 establishment? Could you please look at page 5 in English, page 5 in the

17 B/C/S, and it's page 7 in English. And it says, under number 1, when we

18 are talking about Hazim Dzananovic, Independent Voljavica Battalion based

19 in Voljavica, Commander H. Dzananovic, from 11th of December, 1992 until

20 the 15th of February, 1993.

21 Witness, do you agree that it seems as if these documents have

22 significantly different commanding periods relating to Dzananovic?

23 A. Well, I see the terms are mixed up here as well. One document

24 uses one set of terms and the other one uses a different set of terms.

25 Q. Thank you very much. Could you please go back to document P94

Page 11423

1 now? Look at page R01428887.

2 This is on page 9 in the English, Your Honours.

3 And then under 6(A) you can see that it says: "Certificate of

4 merit given by the commander of the armed forces of Srebrenica on the

5 occasion of the first anniversary of the staff of the armed forces

6 Srebrenica."

7 And then you can turn to the next page. Your Honours, in the

8 English version it's page 10 and then on line 8 from the top, it says:

9 "Azir Malagic," your name, amongst the names of those who were commended

10 in writing by the Srebrenica commander of the armed forces. Please, could

11 you respond very briefly to the following: Did you ever receive any kind

12 of written commendations from the Srebrenica commander?

13 A. No, I never received anything in Srebrenica other than being

14 tapped on the back, patted on the back. That was just the practice. The

15 only commendation that I received was in 1995 with the fall of Srebrenica,

16 when we came and brigades were formed, municipal brigades. So in Kladanj

17 the brigade commander commended me and that's the only commendation in my

18 file. In Srebrenica I never received anything. I know it was the

19 practice for something like this.

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we just wanted to use

21 an exhibit, one more exhibit, and that will be very brief and then perhaps

22 I could finish with that.

23 In fact, I may need five minutes more tomorrow, or should I use

24 the document now, or maybe five or ten minutes more tomorrow morning?

25 Tomorrow.

Page 11424

1 JUDGE AGIUS: I think I can easily say let's take another five

2 minutes, if the staff agrees now, but at this point in time I'm beginning

3 to doubt whether the Prosecution would be in a position to conclude their

4 cross-examination tomorrow.

5 So perhaps you can tell us that first, Ms. Sellers.

6 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I agree with you, it's looking a bit

7 doubtful, although I will try my best to see if we can confine it to one

8 session tomorrow. It would be very hard at this time period to give you

9 complete assurances.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: There is an important witness and I wouldn't like to

11 curtail either on the Prosecution time or the Defence time. Let's

12 continue tomorrow straight away? All right? And if we don't finish, we

13 don't finish.

14 But you will be doing your homework, I would imagine, further, Ms.

15 Sellers. If you think you're not going to finish tomorrow with this

16 witness, please, I would like you to advise the Victims and Witnesses Unit

17 to make alternative arrangements for the witness and that the witness also

18 be put on notice that he's not going to finish tomorrow, if that's the

19 case.

20 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, we will do that this afternoon.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I thank you. Yes, tomorrow -- I thank

22 Judge Eser for reminding me. We have arranged for the sitting to be

23 shifted to the morning tomorrow. We are starting at 10.00 and not at

24 9.00, all right, because I had to reach an agreement with another Judge

25 who very kindly and very generously moved his sitting, or part of his

Page 11425

1 sitting, to another time. There is a possibility that we might be able to

2 continue after quarter to 2.00, but again I don't like to commit myself

3 much on these things because it very much depends on how tired the staff

4 or how tiring the sitting has been, how tired the staff, the witness and

5 everything. So let's play it safe. For the time being, let's assume that

6 there is a possibility that we might not finish the cross-examination

7 tomorrow, in which case we would have to spill over the following day.

8 All right?

9 I thank you and good afternoon.

10 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.48 p.m.,

11 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 28th day of

12 September, 2005, at 10.00 a.m.