1 Wednesday, 28 September 2005
2 [Open session]
3 --- Upon commencing at 10.10 a.m.
4 [The accused entered court]
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Registrar, could you call the case,
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is Case Number
8 IT-03-68, the Prosecutor versus Naser Oric.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: And good morning to you and thank you.
10 Mr. Oric, can you follow the proceedings in your own language?
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours, ladies
12 and gentlemen. Yes, I can follow the proceedings in my own language.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Good morning to you, and you may sit
15 Appearances for the Prosecution.
16 MR. WUBBEN: Good morning, Your Honours, also good morning to my
17 learned friends of the Defence. My name is Jan Wubben, lead counsel for
18 the Prosecution. I'm here together with co-counsel, Ms. Patricia Sellers,
19 Ms. Joanne Richardson, and our case manager, Ms. Donnica Henry-Frijlink.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Wubben. Good morning to you and
21 your team.
22 Appearances for Naser Oric.
23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. Good
24 morning, my learned friends. My name is Vasvija Vidovic, and together
25 with Mr. John Jones I appear for Mr. Naser Oric. With us are our legal
1 assistant, Ms. Adisa Mehic, and our CaseMap manager, Mr. Geoff Roberts.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Madam Vidovic, and good morning to you
3 and your team.
4 And some preliminaries on our part. As you see, I'm not feeling
5 that well today. I will just make an effort to finish the sitting and
6 make it possible for this witness to finish his testimony today. But if I
7 feel much worse than I am now, I think I will have to go. So that's
8 number one.
9 Number two, with regard to your request to have some exhibits
10 examined by handwriting experts and other experts, and my direction --
11 directive to the Registry to come forward with some kind of protocol that
12 they have used in the past or that they may indicate as appropriate, being
13 the custodian of certain exhibits. I have been told they would be in a
14 much better position to give us the information if they know exactly which
15 documents you are talking about. In other words, if we are talking of
16 exhibits that are already exhibits in this case, then we need to know
17 that. If they are exhibits maybe in another case, we would need to know
18 that. If they are -- if they are documents, the existence of which you
19 know but which have not yet been tendered into evidence by the Prosecution
20 and they are Prosecution documents, then we need to know that. I mean,
21 because the -- as I said before, it's not much the concern of the
22 Registrar as such because these may and will remain as Prosecution
23 documents. But we need to provide with a protocol which will ensure the
24 safe custody of -- and the chain of custody of all these documents.
25 So I am told that if I get this information from you in
1 particular, then they will be in a position to forward their protocol
2 suggestions almost within the day.
3 Another thing is this that they have asked me: Whether any of
4 these documents have already been examined, whether any of these documents
5 have already been examined by the expert appointed by the Prosecution.
6 That's another matter. And whether you would require the originals, and
7 I'm -- I will explain why. Because practically all the documents that we
8 have tendered in the records of this case, in these proceedings, are
9 photocopies of the original. For forensic examination purposes, most of
10 the time at least you require also the original, without which you cannot
11 make really any serious comparison. So please come forward with all this
12 information so that we try and conclude this at the earliest. Any
13 remarks? Because thing you do have something to say.
14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I will explain this
15 very briefly. All of these documents are in the possession of the OTP.
16 The originals are in the possession of the OTP, and we shall certainly ask
17 for the originals. Some of these documents have already been examined by
18 an expert of the OTP. Some of these documents have already been admitted
19 into evidence as Prosecution exhibits; some have not. But within a very
20 brief period of time today and tomorrow we can provide precise data about
21 each category of documents and we shall do so.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I thank you for that. Also, I would
23 like you to think along these lines because I did anticipate this of
24 course. Since in this Tribunal we adopt the practice of ex parte expert
25 reports, examinations and reports, and since as you have just hinted some
1 of the documents that you will seek to have examined by your expert have
2 already been examined by -- by the ex parte expert of the Prosecution, we
3 would like you to do some brainstorming amongst yourself particularly and
4 try to tell or give an indication to the Trial Chamber what would you
5 consider to be the situation if at the end of the day the report from your
6 expert on the same documents that have been examined by the expert of the
7 Prosecution are contradictory. Because at that point in time, these being
8 expert reports, you will understand that we are not experts ourselves in
9 this area and we may need to resort to what we do in domestic
10 jurisdictions, that is appoint our own expert. This takes time. I'm not
11 very much concerned about the money that would be needed because it's
12 necessary and the money will have to be found, but it does take time. And
13 I don't want to have the case prolonged unduly because of this, because
14 basically the findings will probably be of utmost importance, absolute
15 importance, for the final submissions that we will have. So please do
16 take this into consideration, think about it, and we will of course
17 postpone the discussion on it pending the result of the investigations
18 that your independent -- your ex parte expert will make. All right?
19 The other thing: I am advised or told by my Legal Officer that
20 the Prosecution wants to address the Trial Chamber following what I said
21 yesterday relating to the Defence motion pursuant to Rule 70. And
22 document that you have received which you passed on to the Trial Chamber
23 yesterday or the day before yesterday. Do you want this to be done in
24 private session, Mr. Wubben?
25 MR. WUBBEN: Yes, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go into private session for a couple of
2 minutes, please.
3 [Private session]
19 [Open session]
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. We are in open session now.
21 Any further preliminaries on your part?
22 MR. WUBBEN: No, Your Honour.
23 MR. JONES: Your Honour, there is only the issue of certification
24 of our appeal, and we're worried that it will become moot fairly soon.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no, the decision will be handed down probably
1 later on today.
2 MR. JONES: I'm obliged.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: We have decided and it's -- has to be -- practically
4 it's all drafted except for a paragraph or two.
5 Yes, let's proceed. Let's bring the witness in, please.
6 Have -- what are the arrangements, Ms. Sellers, do you think you
7 will finish with him today or not?
8 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I do not believe I will be able to
9 finish with him today.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Have the Victims and Witnesses Unit been informed of
12 MS. SELLERS: Yes, they've been informed by the Prosecution, but I
13 also understand the Defence has likewise informed them.
14 [The witness entered court]
15 JUDGE AGIUS: And the witness has been informed, too, I suppose?
16 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I have no communication with the
17 witness, but I assume so.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.
19 Good morning to you, Mr. Malagic.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Two things: You're still testifying in virtue of --
22 in terms of the solemn declaration that you made when you first started
23 giving evidence, to testify the truth. And secondly, I want to make sure
24 that you have been informed that in all likelihood in spite of all the
25 efforts that we made, it will probably not be possible to finish with your
1 testimony today. Have you been informed of this?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you. I want to assure you that
4 you are one of the few witnesses who -- whom I cannot blame for this
5 extension of time that is needed because you have been answering the
6 questions to the point without much extra information.
7 So, Ms. Vidovic, take your time. I mean, you said you needed five
8 or ten minutes, but if you need more at this point in time, I'm not going
9 to stop you.
10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
11 WITNESS: AZIR MALAGIC [Resumed]
12 [Witness answered through interpreter]
13 Examined by Ms. Vidovic: [Continued]
14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Witness, yesterday we talked about a document in which it was
16 stated that you were commended by the command of Srebrenica. Do you
17 remember that?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. I will only ask you the following: You said that there was
20 demilitarisation. Tell me, during the demilitarisation what was the role
21 of armed groups or something that may -- might or might not be called the
22 army there?
23 A. Well, nobody had any special role to the best of my knowledge.
24 Q. Did most people hand over their weapons?
25 A. Yes.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Q. Is it correct that around Srebrenica itself at the demarcation
2 line there were groups of men holding the lines; that is, between the
3 demilitarised zone?
4 A. No. The Canadian Battalion was stationed there after the arrival
5 of Morillon there. Units were stationed there with their APCs.
6 Q. And did Bosnian forces have any positions in that area?
7 A. No. If they observed someone carrying weapons, they would
8 confiscate the weapons. If they noticed anyone bearing arms for any
9 reason, they had a mandate to confiscate the weapons.
10 Q. After the demilitarisation, did some orders arrive from Tuzla
11 about the reorganisation of the armed forces?
12 A. Yes. I heard that they wanted certain lists to be drawn up, lists
13 of people who had participated in the fighting, who had ever been at one
14 of the lines, people who had been wounded.
15 Q. Did you hear Oric's name mentioned in that context in that period
16 after the demilitarisation?
17 A. Yes. After the demilitarisation, only later on. First there was
18 the 8th Operational Group, then the 28th Division. This was all there on
19 paper and that's when I heard it.
20 Q. Did you hear then that he was appointed commander?
21 A. Yes, he was appointed commander I think first of the 8th Operative
22 Group and then of the 28th Division. That's when I heard this.
23 Q. Thank you. I will now show you a photograph.
24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Would the usher please show the
25 witness P460. This photograph bears ERN number 0359296.
1 Q. Witness, would you take a good look at this photograph. Do you
2 recognise anyone close to you on this photograph?
3 A. This person here, the second from the right, is my own brother,
4 Hajrudin Malagic.
5 Q. Very well. Do you recognise anyone else on this photograph?
6 A. I recognise Naser. This is my cousin, Muharem Mehmedovic, and
7 this is a group of men from Potocari whom I know by sight.
8 Q. Can you tell Their Honours whether you know anything about when
9 this photograph was taken and who took it. Have you any knowledge of
11 A. Yes. This photograph was taken in late February 1993 or early
12 March, because my brother then arrived from Tuzla by helicopter. In
13 September 1992 together with a group of fighters, they took a wounded man,
14 Ekrem Salihovic, who had been wounded in the neck, in the direction of
15 Tuzla. They broke through -- through a corridor. It was a crazy thing to
16 do at that time, through Zepa and Gorazde and over Mount Igman. And when
17 our people took them to Tuzla, the first helicopter to make the flight in
18 Bosnia and Herzegovina was that one and I think they were showing it where
19 to land. It was in the Jadar area, the industrial zone of Srebrenica, and
20 I remember that they brought with them a certain number of uniforms. And
21 my brother even gave me one. He knew the photographer; I think his name
22 was Phillip. He was on good terms with him. So it was late February or
23 early March. That's when he arrived from Tuzla and that's when this
24 photograph could have been taken.
25 Q. When you say the end of February or the beginning of March, what
1 year are you referring to?
2 A. 1993.
3 Q. Did he tell you in connection with this photographer whom you say
4 is called Phillip, was this a citizen of Bosnia and Herzegovina or a
5 foreigner? What did he say?
6 A. He said he was a foreigner who had arrived in the area. This
7 Phillip liked going around with the fighters. He was a courageous man. I
8 know he was a foreigner. I'm not sure but I think he was from Germany.
9 I'm not sure of this, however.
10 Q. Thank you. Did he tell you whether he knew this Phillip?
11 A. Yes, he knew him.
12 Q. Did he tell you when this man, Phillip, arrived in the area?
13 A. Yes. Phillip arrived in late February.
14 Q. Thank you, Witness. If someone were to say that this photograph
15 was taken at Christmas, in January 1993, according to what you heard from
16 your brother would this be correct?
17 A. No, it would be incorrect because I remember well and it's
18 probably recorded in the air force archives of Bosnia and Herzegovina that
19 this chopper arrived in late February or early March. My cousin, Muharem
20 Mehmedovic is also on this photograph and he was in Tuzla together with my
21 brother. They arrived together. And even this man here, I think Rijad
22 Salihovic, there were more than one man in the group who arrived by
23 helicopter. So it's impossible for this photograph to have been taken
24 before late February.
25 Q. Thank you, Witness.
1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I will put just a few
2 brief questions about the fall of Srebrenica, and they are relevant in
3 connection with some of the evidence in this case and the sources of that
4 evidence. I'll be very brief.
5 Q. Witness, have you heard of Mr. Karremans?
6 A. Yes, I have.
7 Q. Who was he?
8 A. He was the commander of DutchBat which was stationed in
10 Q. Are you aware that this person on the 10th of July, 1995, a day
11 before the fall of Srebrenica sent some kind of demand to the Muslim
12 leadership in Srebrenica? Have you any knowledge of this?
13 A. Yes. At that time I was with a group of fighters holding the line
14 from Zeleni Jadar from where Serb forces were attacking Srebrenica. And
15 we had pushed their lines back from that industrial zone. I remember
16 well, however, that on that day there was fighting. And Mirhat Salihovic
17 told us that he had received information from Ramiz Becirovic that
18 Karremans had said there would be NATO attacks on Serb positions at that
20 Q. Witness, before you go on you told us a little while ago that your
21 men from Srebrenica did not hold the lines on a regular basis, if I
22 understood you correctly, but that you only went there if you knew there
23 was to be an attack?
24 A. Yes. The forces of DutchBat then withdrew to Potocari from the
25 area, and there was no one to prevent the Serbs from advancing. So we had
1 to do something to prevent them from walking into Srebrenica. The Dutch
2 forces had withdrawn from their stations.
3 Q. Did I understand you correctly that after their withdrawal,
4 Karremans made this demand to the leadership of Srebrenica?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Tell Their Honours what happened after this. Those groups of
7 yours that went there to defend Srebrenica, what did they do?
8 A. We were glad when we heard that there would be a NATO bombing of
9 the Serb forces advancing towards Srebrenica. We retreated, we withdrew.
10 And after that the Serbs simply walked in. There was no NATO bombing, as
11 you know.
12 Q. Did this have any effect on the tragedy that later befell the
13 Muslim people of the area?
14 A. Yes. It was a major factor influencing the fall of the enclave.
15 Q. The people of Srebrenica, do they hold Karremans responsible and
16 the then-government of the Kingdom of the Netherlands for the fall of
18 A. Yes, the people have instigated a lawsuit against the government
19 of the Netherlands.
20 Q. Thank you.
21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
23 Ms. Sellers.
24 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, the Prosecution has allowed the last
25 question to go forward. I just would like to see --
1 JUDGE AGIUS: I allowed it also because there was no objection on
2 your part.
3 MS. SELLERS: Well, there was no objection because I thought it
4 was going to be tied into relevance in terms of the source. I really at
5 this point do not understand why that question was put forward, not that
6 there might not be factual truth. But I would like to state that for the
7 record and think that that evidence needs to be stricken.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: If it's relevant, we will give it importance; if
9 it's not relevant, we will not.
10 MR. JONES: And if it's action -- application that evidence which
11 has been given be stricken, that's obviously more serious than a mere
12 observation. It's our case that the Dutch government and bodies
13 associated with the Dutch have provided evidence in this case and that
14 this relevant background and that in terms of assessing the objectivity
15 and the weight to be given evidence provided from that source because we
16 say there is a motive for providing evidence against our client. And we
17 can develop that in the absence of the witness on some other occasion.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Sellers, you can start with your
20 MS. SELLERS: Thank you, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Are you in a position to start straight away or do
22 you need some time?
23 MS. SELLERS: Yes, I am. If you just allow me to ...
24 JUDGE AGIUS: We will have the break at 11.30, Ms. Sellers.
25 MS. SELLERS: Thank you for the information. If you just bear
1 with me for a couple seconds.
2 Your Honour, can I please ask the usher just to push the overhead
3 projector backward or forward because we have a line of sight that isn't
4 exactly direct. That's much better. Thank you.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't think it is near enough the witness.
6 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, we will be using --
7 JUDGE AGIUS: He will really have to make an effort to look at any
8 document which is placed on it.
9 Yes, Ms. Sellers.
10 Cross-examined by Ms. Sellers:
11 MS. SELLERS:
12 Q. Mr. Malagic, as Judge Agius has explained before, I'm from the
13 Office of the Prosecutor. And right now the Office of the Prosecution
14 will be putting questions to you concerning the evidence that you've given
15 and also any other evidence that we feel you might be able to provide to
16 the Trial Chamber that's relevant to this case. And I also want to say
17 that it has already been mentioned and you've been commended that your
18 answers so far have been quite brief and to the point. And may I ask you,
19 can we stay within that framework so we might proceed as rapidly but as
20 cautiously as possible.
21 I'd like to start by asking you a few questions concerning your
22 duties as a reserve police officer in the spring of 1992. You've given
23 evidence that as a member of the reserve police office and, in particular
24 as a Muslim in the reserve police offices, you noted there was a schism or
25 a separation between those of Bosnian descent, police officers, and
1 Muslims. You agree that this is your testimony?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And during the spring of 1992 when the schism appeared to grow
4 wider, did you along with other Bosnian Muslim reserve police officers,
5 did you discuss the situation, in particular discuss the situation of arms
6 coming into the area?
7 A. Yes, we discussed it among ourselves.
8 Q. But as a reserve police officer, my understanding from your
9 testimony is that you were still bound to respond to your command that was
10 in Bratunac until you withdrew from reserve police. Is that correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And so is it correct to assume that your duties included still
13 looking for crime that might have been committed in the area and, in
14 particular, crime that was committed, whether it was by Serbs or by
16 A. The information we received if someone reported, for example,
17 shooting at Kunjerac or Bjelovac and so on, we wrote it down and sent it
18 on to the Bratunac public security station. We commented on these matters
19 among ourselves, wondering why and how this was happening. There were
20 five of us reserve policeman in Voljavica. We chatted about this
21 informally, you understand; when you hear about some news you talk about
22 it. I don't know if you understand me, but we forwarded reports pursuant
23 to our duties to the Bratunac station.
24 Q. Certainly. And in those reports, would you put down the name of
25 the person, where the person lived, identifying information such as that?
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 A. Yes. We were duty-bound to report everything we had learned
2 because this facilitated a later investigation. But I have to tell you
3 that no investigations were carried out. For what reason? I don't know.
4 But as for the reports, we included all the details, the source of the
5 information, the time, the location, everything that a police report is
6 supposed to contain.
7 Q. Such as the times the person's father's name or mother's name,
8 possibly their address, their age or their year of birth, would that be
9 the kind of information you would include in your police reports?
10 A. [No verbal response]
11 Q. You have to say yes. I understand perfectly well when you're
12 nodding your head, but for the record.
13 A. Yes. In case we that information, that is. In case we had all
14 the relevant data for the person in question, the mother's name, her
15 maiden name, or the year of birth. If we knew all of that, we would
16 include it.
17 Q. Would you also take down information that you received from an
18 eyewitness or from someone who had heard any incriminating information,
19 would you take down their information and what they had said?
20 A. Could you maybe clarify what you mean by incriminating
22 Q. Let's take the example of someone saw illegal weapons being
23 transported in Voljavica or weapons that could have been deemed to be
24 illegal. And the person came to you as a reserve police officer to report
25 this. Then would you take down the name of the person reporting it and
1 what they had said and what they had observed about the transporting of
2 illegal weapons?
3 A. Yes. I mentioned earlier on that in these reports there was a box
4 for the source of data. There was no arms being brought into Voljavica;
5 it was a Muslim village. So at any rate, whoever reported this sort of
6 information, we would indicate their names in this category of the source
7 of information, the names of the people, their identities, who told us
8 what -- at what time the description of the events, who did he see at what
9 time in what place, and all the other relevant data that might be helpful
10 in the course of an investigation.
11 Q. Is that just normal, good police work, these procedures that
12 you've described to me now?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Well, returning to spring of 1992, you've testified about the
15 transport of illegal weapons from Serbia. My question to you is: Did you
16 become aware of the names of people who might have been consistently or,
17 let's say, more frequently trying to buy, sell, or transport illegal
19 A. In the course of our work we often found out the names of people
20 who had been sighted carrying arms. For example, in the vicinity of
21 Voljavica, a place called Pobrdje, the person that the inhabitants of
22 Voljavica reported most often was Goran Ostojic. Quite simply, he had a
23 Russian-made weapon called Dobosar and it used to be a commonly used
24 weapon in the Territorial Defence of the former JNA. And we had reports
25 from the inhabitants as early as mid-1991. He never made any secret of
1 that. He was carrying that weapon, and he would even use it to shoot
2 birds. But his aim was something else, to show that he had this weapon.
3 He never made any secret of it. Goran Ostojic, I do remember him very
4 clearly. And I saw in these documents that he was in a mortar platoon of
5 one of these units around Pobrdje. He was the son of a person called
6 Radomir, if I remember correctly. And that's what we saw quite often in
7 our reports.
8 Q. Now, did you have a chance to speak with other Muslim reserve
9 police officers outside of the area of Voljavica during this critical
10 period of time about the transport of weapons?
11 A. Very rarely, but I did talk.
12 Q. Now, it would seem to me that as part of your duties as reserve
13 police officer, that you would become aware of information, principally in
14 Voljavica but at times information outside of Voljavica, that could affect
15 the security and safety of the citizens in Voljavica. Isn't that correct?
16 A. Yes, I did have that information.
17 Q. And isn't it also correct to assume that information concerning
18 the movements of any weapons or any illegal dealing in weapons would have
19 been something that reserve police officers would have had to be
20 interested in as part of their duty?
21 A. Yes. That was indeed of interest to us, of quite considerable
22 interest to us, in fact. But I didn't have that much time. I was
23 normally in Voljavica and I didn't really have time to ask for a reserve
24 police officer from Tegare and ask if he knew about it. We had two police
25 officers on active duty in Voljavica and they covered other areas and what
1 I mean to say is they were on patrol in other areas and we talked to them
2 quite often, and they had more information than we did. There was Mujo
3 Husic who was on the same patrol as I was when we put a stop to the
4 bringing of arms from Serbia to Pobrdje and Herdjec [phoen] Mirsad. So
5 there were police officers on active duty and they covered the entire area
6 of Bratunac. And they had far more information than we did about these
7 matters, and obviously they would report what they knew to us. Why not?
8 They would tell everything what was going on at that time. Of course we
9 were interested. I mean, you must admit that you would have been
10 interested had you been living in the area at the time.
11 Q. I do admit that, yes. Then would you also agree that police
12 officers in the Srebrenica municipality, your colleagues, certainly would
13 have taken an interest, too, in these very same activities of gun-running,
14 or selling weapons illegally, and would have been on the alert for what
15 would have been deemed criminal activity?
16 A. If you mean the police force from Srebrenica, I very rarely had
17 any contact with them. But of course their tasks were the same, to follow
18 any movements in as far as the pushing of arms and illegal weapons in
19 particular was concerned. It's a different municipality. They had their
20 own police administration, their own checkpoints, their own reserve
21 officers. And -- I mean, the municipality of Srebrenica is rather large.
22 There are some villages in the direction of Jadra [as interpreted],
23 Osmace, bordering on to Bajina Basta which is in Serbia and the part of
24 Zepa. It's a large area, and of course they had their checkpoints there
25 and their reserve officers as well as police officers on active duty were
1 on patrol there. They might not have had enough actually, enough staff I
2 mean, to cover the entire area, and that was the case in Bratunac as well.
3 Especially after the killing of two Bosniaks in the village of Kravica,
4 tensions mounted so that the police force had to step-up their efforts.
5 Q. And if I'm correct also in assuming that the police officers
6 certainly at that point in time wouldn't discriminate whether the crime
7 was committed by a Bosnian Muslim, Bosnian Serb, or a Bosnian Croat, or a
8 foreign resident of Bosnia. They would be looking for people who had
9 committed criminal acts, irrespective of their ethnicity or their
11 A. We carried out police officers' duties. Our legal obligation was
12 to make no distinction amongst people when it came to their religious
13 affiliations, so we had to put stop to any kind of criminal activity. And
14 I mean -- I don't just mean pushing arms but also transport, theft,
15 burglary. I mean, we were not there to keep Muslims only in check or
16 Serbs only; it was our legal obligation to keep the situation under
17 control with regard to everyone, no matter what their ethnic group was.
18 It's the same in every country, I suppose.
19 Q. Who was legally allowed to buy weapons and arms in Bratunac or
20 Srebrenica municipality during that spring period? Who could legally
21 purchase arms?
22 A. No one. If they had a special license issued by the police --
23 well, a special procedure had to be followed. You had to launch an
24 application and then you would be placed under review in order for them to
25 decide whether you'd be issued with that license, and it could be a
1 license for a hunting rifle or a gun or pistol or whatever. And there was
2 a special service, police service. They had to assess whether, for
3 example, you had a criminal record, whether you were a person that could
4 be trusted with a weapon, that is to say for you to purchase and carry
5 that weapon. And once the procedure had been completed, you would get a
6 special form for a specific weapon such as, for example, hunting rifle,
7 and you would go to a special shop and you would get a license for that
8 particular weapon. And it would be registered. So all weapons in the
9 possession of our citizens were accompanied by these special licenses. So
10 this is the procedure I'm explaining to you about. And records were kept
11 at the police, whether it was hunting rifles or maybe guns. But you could
12 buy no other weapons in any shop in fact.
13 Q. And you probably also could not sell any weapons unless you were
14 an authorised person. Wouldn't that be correct?
15 A. Probably those shops must have had some kind of an agreement with
16 the arms factories such as the Red Flag. Crnava Vastava at Kragljevode in
17 Serbia was the only arms factory on the territory of the former Yugoslavia
18 and I suppose they had an agreement with that particular manufacturer for
19 them to sell their products.
20 Q. But that's why the man you arrested coming across the river with
21 his cache of arms, he was illegally receiving the arms and probably the
22 arms had been illegally sold to him. That's the reason you arrested him,
23 right? Mr. Neskovic.
24 A. Kosta Neskovic didn't cross the river; he was waiting on the
25 Bosnian side. Yes, he was waiting for this delivery of arms coming from
1 Serbia. And I don't believe he himself was in fact selling those weapons.
2 At that time they were being systematically armed by someone. It was an
3 SDS activity. Every village, every single one of their villages was being
4 armed. They had already had the experience of war in Croatia and quite a
5 few volunteers from that area had been sent to Croatia. And upon their
6 return in Bosnian they were the main protagonists and the main murderers,
7 in fact. And they had that experience, and that's why they were getting
8 armed and that's why they were preparing themselves for war in Bosnia and
9 Herzegovina because they saw --
10 Q. I'm sorry. I just wanted to have you answer my question, that
11 that activity that he was doing was illegal and that's why you arrested
13 A. Yes, definitely.
14 Q. Right. Now, did you know Mirsad Halilovic's -- of -- before the
16 A. I knew quite a few Halilovics. If that's the person you have in
17 mind, the person who worked at the police station in Bratunac, there was
18 somebody called Halilovic there. I don't know if that's him. I did hear
19 of him but I did not know him personally, if that's the person.
20 Q. Did you know a man named Becir Bogilovic before the war? Becir.
21 A. No. I met Becir Bogilovic for the first time on the 2nd of July
22 when he got there with a group of fighters from Srebrenica in order to
23 help us with the attack on Likari. That's the first time I saw him.
24 Q. And did you know Mr. Naser Oric before the war?
25 A. Yes. Naser Oric used to come to Voljavica quite often. That's
1 where his wife comes from, and so his former fiance was from there and he
2 would come to parties there. And we would be bit jealous, I must admit.
3 It wasn't just for anyone to pick a girl from Voljavica, so we were a bit
4 jealous of him. But I did know him before the war.
5 Q. Well, his wife's maiden name, I believe, is Avdic, isn't it?
6 A. Yes, yes.
7 Q. Now, when he came to Voljavica do you know what job or profession
8 he held during that time?
9 A. I think he was either still at the police academy or he had
10 already started working in Belgrade, I'm not sure. I do know he was in
11 Belgrade. As to whether he was still at school or whether he was already
12 working, I could not know. I was never actually in touch with him, but I
13 did know of him.
14 Q. And you do know that he did become a police officer that worked in
15 the municipality of Srebrenica at a later time during this spring of 1992.
17 A. Yes, I do know. He also got married to someone from Voljavica and
18 his father-in-law and his mother-in-law used to say that their daughter
19 had married a policeman who is working in Belgrade. And they were from my
21 Q. Right. Thank you. I would like to show you a Prosecution and
22 Defence exhibit.
23 MS. SELLERS: Your Honours, it's a joint exhibit. It's P564 and
24 it's D690. The English is on Sanction, I understand.
25 Q. Mr. Malagic, you're going to be receiving what is a book that had
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 been written by a Mr. Besim Ibisevic and I am going to be looking at page
2 7 in the English and it's page 118, 119 in the B/C/S. If you could look
3 at this document on that page, and there is a line. I believe it's midway
4 through the a paragraph right after you see brackets dot, dot, dot. And
5 it says: "Naser Oric, a policeman at the Srebrenica police station." Do
6 you see that line, sir?
7 A. I do.
8 Q. Now, you agree to your knowledge Naser Oric had gone to the police
9 academy and had worked as a police officer, at least in Belgrade. That
10 was your testimony just now. Correct?
11 A. As far as I know, he did work in Belgrade. I don't know exactly
12 until when, but I do know he did it. I don't know in what year.
13 Q. Okay.
14 MS. SELLERS: Now, I'm going to read a portion of this out to you
15 and into the record, Your Honours.
16 Q. It's midway down the page and it is a sentence that begins: "The
17 SJB chief." Do you see where I am, Mr. Malagic? It's right after a
18 very -- fairly large writing of the last same "Salihovic, Sado."
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Okay. It states: "The SJB chief complained that his employ,
21 policeman Naser, was absent for days and that he did not report to him.
22 Hamed Salilovic (Sado) asked Ibran to decide whose employ Naser was and
23 under whose orders. It was obvious that Naser was using his connection
24 with Ibran to invoice his duties. Naser became less a policeman and more
25 Ibran's private driver. Secret arms deliveries began. Most members of
1 the SDA IO never found out how many weapons there were, what they cost,
2 and where they went. Those who had the money to buy and distribute
3 weapons kept their mouths shut. Rumours began and there were many stories
4 but there was no time to check. Naser was the right hand on the ground of
5 the men who had the monopoly to distribute and sell weapons. In the Drina
6 river valley, Ahmo Tihic was assigned the thankless task of selling
7 weapons. At Osmaci, Imam Aziz Hasanovic sold weapons which arrived from
8 Potocari. There were other people in the field who took over and sold
9 weapons. At meetings of the SDA IO Ibran always defended his protege
10 Naser against accusations that he was irresponsible and lazy. 'Leave him
11 alone, Sado. Naser is more important to me than he is to you! What he is
12 doing is important for the people,' said the SOIO chairman."
13 My question to you is that the selling and trading of those arms
14 was an illegal activity. That's correct, right?
15 A. Yes, that is correct; it was illegal.
16 Q. And for a police officer, even for a reserved police officer, he
17 or she should have been aware of what the law was at that time. Isn't
18 that correct?
19 A. Yes. Arms trafficking would have been an illegal action for any
20 citizen. But as far as I can see on the basis of this text, Ibran
21 Mustafic is claiming that Naser was very important to him. Everyone in
22 that area knows full well that Ibran never liked Naser and there is a
23 reference to Ahmo Tihic as well. And if you were to show this document to
24 anyone they would tell you that it wasn't relevant. And as to this
25 information with reference to the mention of Hamed Salihovic within the
1 police force, I wouldn't know about that because it is a different police
2 station in Srebrenica. But as far as I know, Ibran Mustafic never liked
3 Naser, neither did Ahmo Tihic. And their joint involvement of this
4 activity is out of the question. I'm 100 percent sure of that because --
5 I mean, you don't need to believe me. Any other witness, any other person
6 from that area can tell you about it. I'm absolutely certain about it. I
7 don't know how Besim Ibisevic got his hands on this kind of information,
8 but on the basis of what I've read here, I can say it's absolutely
9 incorrect as far as I know. But everyone else would tell you the same.
10 Q. Mr. Malagic, you do not know whether this occurred or not because
11 it does say it was kept secret. My question to you, and you answered in
12 the affirmative, is that would be illegal activity. That's correct?
13 A. I told you that anyone involved in illegal arms trafficking,
14 selling arms, whatever, would be acting illegally. But I went on to
15 comment on this that I just can't think where Besim got this information.
16 Does he have any kind of proof?
17 Q. This is another issue that I want to raise, that you mentioned
18 Ahmo Tihic, and you would agree, too, that Ahmo Tihic, if he were engaged
19 in this illegal trafficking, that that would be illegal in that time
20 period. That's correct, right?
21 A. Madam Sellers, I did not say that Ahmo took part in this. All I
22 said was that he didn't like Naser. Don't put words into my mouth.
23 Q. No, I certainly don't want to do that. My question to you is: If
24 Ahmo Tihic did take part in it, in illegal gun-running -- or gun-running
25 of this nature, that that also would be illegal. And your answer is? Yes
1 or no please.
2 A. Had Azir Malagic taken part in it, it would still have been
3 illegal. I suppose I've made myself clear now.
4 Q. Yes, you have, Mr. Malagic. Thank you very much.
5 MS. SELLERS: I would now ask that this be taken from the witness,
6 the document.
7 Q. Mr. Malagic, I would like to now ask you and tell me yes or no, do
8 you know anyone named Hari Poljak?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Okay. Do you know anyone named Husein Alkanovic -- Alikanovic?
11 Or Husin?
12 A. Could you repeat the last name, please.
13 Q. Alkanovic. I might be putting the accent on the incorrect
14 syllable. Alikanovic.
15 A. I think that Husein Alikanovic, if he was a teacher in the
16 economic school before the war in Srebrenica, then I have heard of him.
17 But I didn't know him personally. I know that Husein Alikanovic was a
18 teacher before the war in the secondary school specialising in economics.
19 He had a master's degree in economics if that's the person.
20 Q. To your knowledge did he ever become part of a military force or a
21 fighter or become a soldier?
22 A. As far as I know, no, to the best of my knowledge.
23 Q. Certainly.
24 MS. SELLERS: I would like the witness now to see P72.
25 Q. Mr. Malagic, I would ask you to just look over this document.
1 It's a document dated the 10th of April, 1992. It's entitled "Contract of
2 Sale." I would like to read into the record what it says under Article
3 1. "On 10th of April, 1992, a contract of sale was signed in Srebrenica
4 between the Srebrenica Territorial Defence. In the capacity of buyer,
5 represented by Naser Oric, Srebrenica Territorial Defence commander and
6 self-employed businessman, Hari Poljak in the capacity of seller,
7 represented by Husein Aljkanovic." [As read]
8 "The contract of sale refers to the following," I'm now in
9 Article 2, "foodstuffs for Srebrenica Territorial Defence, weapons for
10 Srebrenica Territorial Defence, equipment for Srebrenica Territorial
11 Defence, ammunition and shells for Srebrenica Territorial Defence."
12 Article 3 states: "The currency for calculating and paying the
13 goods covered by the contract shall be by DEM," Deutschmarks.
14 And under article 4 it says: "The seller shall sell and buyer
15 shall buy the following goods in quantities at the prices stated below."
16 And under 4B in particular, it says: "Automatic rifles, 800 pieces at 500
17 Deutschmarks a piece, Zolja hand-held racket launchers, 50 pieces at 200
18 Deutschmarks a piece, hand-held rocket launchers, 50 pieces at 500
19 Deutschmarks a piece, and TT pistols 30 pieces at 500 Deutschmarks a
21 And then it says: "Equipment for Srebrenica Territorial defence.
22 Summer camouflage set, 2000 sets at 300 Deutschmarks. High leather boots,
23 bullet-proof vests."
24 Under 4D we have ammunition. "Ammunition and shells for the
25 Srebrenica Territorial Defence, 7.62 ammunition for automatic rifles,
1 millimetres. 1.000 pieces at 34 Deutschmarks. Osa hand-held
2 rocket-launchers, 1.000 pieces."
3 I'm sorry, one million pieces in the prior one.
4 "1.000 pieces at 600 Deutschmarks a piece. 7.62 millimetre pistol
5 ammunition, 27.000 pieces at 0.30 Deutschmarks a piece."
6 Mr. Malagic, my question is solely: With this contract of sale of
7 weapons at that time to Mr. Oric have been considered illegal, yes or no?
8 A. This contract would have been illegal, yes, but this is
9 ridiculous. I do apologise.
10 Q. We are not talking about receipt; we are just talking about the
11 contract. And you agree that that would be illegal?
12 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour, please.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: I would like to see the B/C/S version of this
14 document for a while because I only have available the English text. I
15 just want to establish whether it's signed or not and look at --
16 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, might I hand you my copy?
17 JUDGE AGIUS: We can put it on the ELMO. We can put it on the
18 ELMO. I just want to say the last page, please, or if there are any --
19 let's see them one by one, one after the other. I just want to make sure
20 if there are any signatures affixed. Go to the next page, please. I need
21 to see it from top to bottom, please. So you have to move -- yes, okay.
22 That's -- move to the second page, please. All right. And let's move to
23 the 3rd page, please. Can the technicians zoom in the part ... All
24 right. And the opposite side. All right. Okay.
1 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, might I state that this is one of the
2 documents that we've had testimony on from the forensic specialist.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, but I would rather prefer not to have any
5 MS. SELLERS: Certainly, I just wanted to, if you were unaware.
6 Q. Mr. Malagic, we can remove the document. I just have one small
7 follow-up question, and that is: You did not know the relationship
8 between Ibrahim Mustafic and Naser Oric in the spring of 1992, did you?
9 A. I would see Ibrahim Mustafic, but I don't think he was actually
10 staying there in 1992.
11 Q. My question is: You didn't know what type of relationship,
12 professional or personal or otherwise, that he had with Naser Oric in the
13 spring of 1992, did you?
14 A. Ibran Mustafic in the spring of 1992 was not in the area. I think
15 he arrived there after the demilitarisation of Srebrenica. I don't know
16 how he arrived or why, but he was not in Srebrenica in this period as far
17 as I know. So there could have been no connection between them. Why
18 won't you let me comment on the previous document?
19 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, it's --
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Whatever you want to comment on --
21 MS. SELLERS: Certainly.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: -- The previous document, please feel free to do so.
23 MS. SELLERS:
24 Q. Certainly, Mr. Malagic. Yes?
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead.
1 MR. JONES: The witness needs the document back, I think.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, okay. Let's give him the document back if he
3 requires to see it again.
4 MS. SELLERS:
5 Q. Mr. Malagic, prior to commenting I just want you to --
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Just let him comment first, then put your question.
7 MS. SELLERS:
8 Q. I'm sorry. Please go ahead.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead, Mr. Malagic.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On this contract I have seen huge
11 quantities of food and weapons and boots and equipment. I assume you know
12 what the situation in Srebrenica was, and I'm sure you don't believe this
13 either. I had a single pair of boots from the outbreak of the war until
14 1995. It says here "2.000 pairs of boots." My father would take the
15 boots and stick some rubber on the soles. And here it speaks of 2.000
16 pairs of boots, 800 rifles. In Srebrenica maybe there were up to 400
17 automatic rifles. That's why I asked to comment because I'm a bit shaken
18 by this; it does not correspond to the actual situation there. You all
19 know what the situation in Srebrenica was like then. Enormous quantities
20 of flour are mentioned here, thousands of people died looking for flour,
21 lost their legs because they stepped on land-mines. You would find a man
22 who had stepped on a land-mine and carry him to a village where there was
23 only a medical technician and they would saw his leg off with no
24 anaesthesia. I have seen this happen with my own eyes because we carried
25 those people after they wandered into a minefield, and yet here there is
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 mention of vast quantities of food. That's why I wanted to mention this.
2 Q. Thank you for your comment, Mr. Malagic.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: You can take the document back from him,
4 Madam Usher.
5 MS. SELLERS:
6 Q. It's obvious anything in this document didn't arrive in
7 Srebrenica? Mr. Malagic, nothing in this document arrived in Srebrenica;
8 that's what your testimony is now?
9 A. We had none of these things mentioned here. I don't believe
10 anyone ever bought or sold this. These are enormous amounts of money, and
11 Husein, as far as I know him, he was a teacher. He had a master's degree
12 in economics. I don't believe such a man would have engaged in such
13 activities. He was a teacher. He taught children in school.
14 Q. Okay. Thank you, Mr. Malagic. My next thing I want to ask you is
15 that, in terms of Ahmo Tihic, did you know him or did you ever meet him?
16 A. No, I only knew him by sight.
17 Q. I see.
18 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I'll be moving into a slightly
19 different area and I think maybe we'll just take the break here. But I do
20 have one last question to Mr. Malagic prior to the break because I think
21 he didn't quite answer my question.
22 Q. And that is: If Ibran Mustafic was not in Srebrenica in the
23 spring period, prior to his leaving Srebrenica you did not know what type
24 of relationship, professional, personal, or otherwise, that he had with
25 Naser Oric. Isn't that correct, yes or no?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Thank you.
3 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, we can break at this period.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: We will have a 30-minute break, please.
5 --- Recess taken at 11.29 a.m.
6 --- On resuming at 12:17 p.m.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, reluctantly. I'm sorry we are again late, but
8 I'm not feeling well. In addition, we tried to discuss a few things
10 Yes, Mr. Wubben.
11 MR. WUBBEN: Yes, Your Honour. There might be some relief as we
12 updated Defence counsel as well that within our trial team we also suffer
13 from disease.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: I hope I have not transmitted it to you and that
15 will be in the records if I did. So let's continue, Ms. Sellers. I'm
16 feeling worse than I was this morning and I think my voice indicates that,
17 but I'm gradually falling to pieces and I have a very important commitment
18 this evening which I'm very keen on not missing. But as it looks, it's
19 not going to materialise. Anyway, let's continue.
20 MS. SELLERS:
21 Q. Mr. Malagic, I'm going to now ask some questions in a different
22 area, and that's when you left Voljavica. Your testimony was that prior
23 to coming to Srebrenica you went to Poloznik. Is that correct?
24 A. Yes, Poloznik.
25 Q. And there you joined with a group of civilians and a group of
1 armed men, including the man who had would become your commander in
2 Likari, Osman. Isn't that correct?
3 A. I said it differently. We arrived from Voljavica together with
4 Osman. Osman went to Poloznik together with us and all those people. We
5 didn't find him there; we went there together. When we got there we
6 didn't find any armed group there.
7 Q. Thank you for that clarification. So you claim with Osman, and
8 were you with a group of civilians and a group of men who were either
9 fighters or would become fighters for Osman?
10 A. We arrived in that area together with the civilians. There were
11 big groups of refugees, as I said, and we decided to create some kind of
12 protection for those refugees because the shelling was beginning and Serbs
13 were beginning to infiltrate the refugees. For example, in Lasovac and
14 they killed quite a lot of people. So in order to protect the people in
15 the area of Ljuljacka we set up a certain kind of defence in front of
16 those refugees, and Osman was there with us.
17 Q. Now, when you say "we," are you talking about men? Are you
18 talking about women? Are you talking about men of any particular age or
19 women of any particular age?
20 A. I am talking about men of a particular age. Osman was the oldest
21 among us. We might have been 41 or 42, and the rest of us were all
22 younger than him.
23 Q. And had the other men who were with you, had they served in the
24 JNA for their year of military service or were they also members of either
25 reserve police forces or any other type of structured group prior to this?
1 A. No. Among them there were quite a few who had not had any contact
2 with weapons and who had not served their military service in the former
3 JNA. Some had only just completed secondary school and some hadn't even
4 completed secondary school. I can enumerate at least a dozen of such men.
5 Q. Well, if you would allow me to suggest that among those men you
6 were probably one of the ones who were more educated in terms of a
7 military sense, in terms of a police sense or being a member of a
8 uniformed group. Isn't that correct, Mr. Malagic?
9 A. That's not correct. The group was not uniformed. As I said, I
10 was wearing jeans.
11 Q. Let me restate that. You might have misunderstood my question.
12 I'm saying that among that group you probably had more experience, having
13 been a member of the JNA, having been a member of the reserve police, more
14 experience in having belonged to, in the past, a group of uniformed men in
15 a structured environment. That was my question.
16 A. I had done my military service in 1986 and 1987. It lasted a
17 year. In that group there were also other men who had done their military
18 service. I was not the only one who had had military training. Is that
19 sufficient for you?
20 Q. Thank you. That's very informative. And also you were one of the
21 few, I imagine, or correct me if I'm wrong, who was also a police officer,
22 a reserve police officer?
23 A. In Voljavica there were five reserve police officers and two
24 active-duty police officers working in the Bratunac public security
25 station at the time.
1 Q. So among the group that we're talking about now that left
2 Voljavica and went down to Poloznik, how many former JNA members or police
3 officers or reserve police officers were in this group?
4 A. In that group, there were about ten men who had done their
5 military service. Everyone had to do their military service, and in the
6 group there were about ten such men. In the group I was the only
7 policeman. Most policemen were in Hakija Meholjic's group in Srebrenica
8 later on. But in this group I was the only policeman. Although, when we
9 started working as reserve policemen we didn't have any kind of special
10 training. They simply looked at our characteristics from before the war,
11 and, if you didn't have a criminal record, if you had completed secondary
12 school and you were of good character, they would invite you for an
13 interview and evaluate to see whether you were a suitable person in moral
14 and ethical terms to carry out this job. But we didn't have any kind of
15 police training as such.
16 Q. But on the job you certainly learned, as you've already described
17 to the Trial Chamber, investigative skills, information-gathering skills,
18 and you had to carry a weapon as a reserve police officer. If you could
19 just say yes or no for that. Would you agree with it?
20 A. Yes, yes.
21 Q. Now, the group is formed in Voljavica, you've gone to Poloznik,
22 and you testified that you were wearing your reserve military officer's
23 jacket but civilian pants. Were there other people in the group that
24 might have had this mixture of clothing?
25 A. First of all you said the group was formed in Voljavica. No, the
1 group was formed when we arrived in Poloznik with the people. I was
2 wearing a police jacket. It was May; we were sleeping outdoors. The
3 jacket was warm and it was cold; that's why I wore it. As for the others,
4 people might have had a sweater or a sheep-skin jacket. We had what we
5 had taken from our homes. We had to sleep outdoors and you have to
6 understand that in May the nights are very cold outside in the woods. And
7 we had to sleep out in the open. Everybody was in civilian clothes.
8 Nobody had any kind of uniform, a JNA uniform, for instance, or any other
9 kind of uniform.
10 Q. Thank you, Mr. Malagic. My question was maybe just a little bit
11 too obtuse. I just wanted to know: Did anyone else have a mixture of
12 clothing that might have been, let's say, an old TO reserve jacket, maybe
13 someone else wearing part of a military garb, heavier clothing. Just can
14 you say yes or no, in your group did some people have mixtures of clothes,
15 civilian and military, other than you?
16 A. No, no.
17 Q. Now, can you also answer as briefly as you've done now: Were
18 there any persons in your group, any of these I would say adult males,
19 young adult males all under 40, were any of them carrying any type of
21 A. No. If you want yes or no, it's no. Do you want me to explain?
22 Q. Were they carrying rifles or guns or machine-guns or were they
23 carrying knives or things of that nature, weapons in a general sense?
24 A. No. We had maybe a couple of hand-made guns and knives. And
25 using those hand-made guns was a risky business.
1 Q. Right. Thank you. Now, would you tell the Trial Chamber how many
2 men were in your group.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: I think he said this yesterday, but anyway let him
4 answer the question.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can tell you. There were 25
6 of us, tops, in that group; 25 men.
7 MS. SELLERS:
8 Q. Now, this group stayed in Poloznik for how long, if you could tell
9 us? How many days or ...
10 A. We stayed in Poloznik until mid-June, almost a month, that is.
11 Q. Now, while you were there you've testified you were defending the
12 civilians in the region. So did you organise patrols or manners in which
13 you could defend those civilians, the group?
14 A. We organised the advance posts where two, possibly three people
15 would observe the communication lines in the direction of Bjelovac and
16 Voljevac and Jovanovici where we might have expected an attack to be
17 launched from. So there were two roads that they could have used in order
18 to launch an attack. And from those advance posts we kept them under
20 Q. Okay. So you established observation posts. Did you also
21 establish any type of walking patrol?
22 A. No, no patrols.
23 Q. Did you establish any form of communicating information to other
24 refugee groups or other men that had formed similar patrol groups like
1 A. No. There was no flow of information as such.
2 Q. And then by mid-June your group and the other civilians who had
3 decided to go to Srebrenica. That was your testimony; correct?
4 A. With a group of civilians, not all of them.
5 Q. Right. Now, among the group of civilians were some family
6 members, and I imagine there were other people from Voljavica that you
7 knew who maybe were not family members. Correct?
8 A. There were quite a few people who set off with us. Amongst other
9 people there were my parents and the parents of some other members of the
10 group. Voljavica is a large place. There were quite a few inhabitants.
11 Q. Now, had there been inhabitants from Voljavica had already moved
12 to Srebrenica prior to your group and the civilians going to Voljavica in
14 A. Yes. Those who had family members in some other villages -- well,
15 of course they set off in -- towards those villages earlier on. And, for
16 example, if they had in-laws in villages around Voljavica, they went up
17 there to the village of Gostilj. For example, there were five to six
18 families from our area and they felt -- they had felt before that they
19 were not safe close to the River Drina and there were such situations in a
20 number of other villages, people who had left earlier.
21 Q. Thank you. I would like to read some names and would you just
22 tell me briefly, yes or no, do they come from Voljavica. And please bear
23 with me with my pronunciation. Mustafa Delic, son of Hamed. Is that
24 someone you know from Voljavica or that you know comes from Voljavica?
25 A. Yes.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Q. Bajro Omerovic?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Reuf Suhic?
4 A. Suljic.
5 Q. Reuf Suljic?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Hajrudin Suljic?
8 A. No.
9 Q. He's a son of Daman. Does that make it any clearer?
10 A. No.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: How do you spell the surname again, please, because
12 I want to make sure that we -- it's being pronounced well.
13 MS. SELLERS: The family name, sir, or the --
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, the family name.
15 MS. SELLERS: Suljic, I have S-u-l-j-i-c.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Suljic. Suljic.
17 MS. SELLERS: Hajrudin.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
19 MS. SELLERS:
20 Q. Mehmed Malagic, son of Ramo?
21 A. He's an elderly man. I know him. He's an uncle of mine, Mehmed
23 Q. And Suad Muhic?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Petko Mujic?
1 A. No, Petko is not a Bosniak name.
2 Q. Betko, B-e-t-k-o?
3 A. B-e-t-k-o, possibly, but if it's a P then it's certainly not.
4 Q. No, not a P, a B. Yes. So Betko Mukic [sic], with B. Do you
5 know that name, sir?
6 A. B-e-t-k-o, yes. Yes.
7 Q. Thank you.
8 A. Yes, I do.
9 Q. Muhamed Cvrk, C-v-r-k, son of Mehmed. His brother --
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Thank you. Right. Let me try one more time to pronounce the
12 other name. It's R-e-u-f, Reuf Suhic, Suhic, S-u-h-i-c?
13 A. Suhic, I did say I knew him before.
14 Q. Did you see any of those persons whose names we have mentioned in
15 Srebrenica during the time period that you were in Srebrenica?
16 A. I did come across them but I don't know what period of time you
17 have in mind, in particular. This Muhamed Crvk for example, who was in
18 our group with Osman, but not the others. But I would come across them in
19 Srebrenica occasionally, and also, when people fled, they were from
21 Q. Now, is he related, Mr. Muhamed Cvrk, is he related to Fikret
23 A. No.
24 Q. Is Fikret Cvrk also from Voljavica to your knowledge?
25 A. No. Fikret Cvrk is from Zalazje which is a neighbouring village
1 in relation to Voljavica.
2 Q. And is the surname of Cvrk fairly well-known in Zalazje?
3 A. It's not very widespread in Zalazje, rather more in Voljavica.
4 Q. Thank you. Now, Mr. Malagic, when you came to Srebrenica your
5 testimony is that you went immediately up to Likari. I'd like to know --
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. -- When you went to Likari did you go with any of your family
8 members, in particularly your mother, your father?
9 A. My sister's husband is from Srebrenica. He married there before
10 the war, and I took my mother and my father to the village of Zabonja
11 right above Srebrenica at my sister's place. I was with my parents.
12 Q. So I take it that your testimony is that none of your family
13 members were in Likari with you?
14 A. None of my family, no.
15 Q. Did you go to Likari with the group of young adult men that you've
16 described to us who were in Pleznik [sic] with you?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Did any members of that group take family members, in particular
19 female family members, with them to Likari?
20 A. No. There wasn't a single woman in Likari.
21 Q. So I'm correct in assuming that in Likari we had male fighters,
22 not families? It wasn't a refugee population?
23 A. There were just the inhabitants of Likari there. And as to our
24 people, they were not there apart from us, our group, but other
25 inhabitants had fled elsewhere. Because it would have been too risky for
1 them to flee there because it was the front line basically. So you can't
2 have people being there where there was constant shelling and combat, et
4 Q. So you went directly to what was the front line of fighting
5 outpost. Isn't that your testimony?
6 A. Yes. We found a group of people from Potcaus there and there was
7 some people from Voljavica there as well who had arrived at the village of
8 Gostilj earlier. And we found them there in those burned-down houses.
9 And Likari was held by Serbs from a body in Zalazje and our people had
10 liberated that village and they managed to free four women who had been
11 held prisoner there. And there was a kind of demarcation line which was
12 established between those villages and Likari, and then we got there.
13 Q. Now, could you just remind me: How high up is Likari? You said
14 it was on a plateau. What's the elevation of Likari?
15 A. I can't tell you the exact altitude, but it was at higher altitude
16 than Potocari on one side and Sase on the other side. It was just --
17 there was just one mountain which was at a higher altitude. I don't know
18 if you are getting my drift. There were houses at the crossroads in the
19 direction of Obadi and Zalazje, and there were other houses lower down.
20 If you can give me a map, I can point it out to you.
21 Q. I'm going to put a map in front of you very soon. I understand
22 how important it is, but I have one other question before that. I would
23 put it to you that as a matter of fact Likari allowed a good view of
24 Srebrenica and of Potocari as well as Sase and the surrounding areas.
25 Would you agree with that?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Can you explain where my error lies?
3 A. Srebrenica was not visible from Likari. Zalazje couldn't be seen
4 either because of a curve on the road and a forest. You could see parts
5 of certain villages. For example, if you were using binoculars you could
6 have used the part of Sase -- you could have seen part of Sase, that is to
7 say the old management building for the mine, but you could not see the
8 actual settlement because Sase is a broader term. It includes Gradina and
9 Kolonija where workers from Sase used to live. Not everything was
10 visible. There were trees, et cetera. Likari is at a higher altitude but
11 not everything was clearly visible.
12 Q. Then could you tell me briefly, what was the military value of
14 A. Had Serbs managed to take Likari, they would have been in control
15 of the area across Srebrenica. They could have had Potocari and they
16 would have been able to put artillery there and actually aim at every
17 village in Potocari including the villages of Gostilj and Peciste. And
18 the people from that area would have had to flee even further, and some
19 other villages --
20 THE INTERPRETER: That the interpreter didn't catch.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Would have been targeted as well and
22 that's why Likari was of essential importance. And it was a Muslim
24 MS. SELLERS:
25 Q. It was of central military importance and it was a position that
1 you manned for almost six months during your stay in Srebrenica. Isn't
2 that correct?
3 A. Up until the 14th of December, 1992, almost six months.
4 Q. You've testified, too, that there was an old radio in Likari.
5 Could you just tell me extremely briefly, yes or no: Is the fact that the
6 radio was being used on a high elevation point, did that allow you to
7 receive, be able to overhear, more communications?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. So not only for purposes of defending Potocari or purposes of
10 seeing places such as Sase, Likari was important in order to be able to
11 receive communications, particularly communications from the Serbs. Is
12 that correct?
13 A. Yes. We listened in to their conversations on a daily basis, as
14 they talked to one another from their positions, not on the phone but
15 using their own radio devices. I mean, their military forces used their
16 own military radio.
17 Q. I'm going to come back to the radio. What I'm interested in right
18 now is that you've mentioned Osman group of 25 persons were there. You've
19 also testified that Naser Sabanovic's group came to Likari. Is that
21 A. We found that group at Likari. They arrived there earlier than we
22 did and it wasn't a Naser but a Nasir Sabanovic from the village called
23 Potcaus. When Potcaus was attacked by the Serbs -- well, it was closer
24 for them to get Likari, across the hill called Potcaus and that's how they
25 got there. Another group of people.
1 Q. So one could say you were reinforcements because there was already
2 another group of men who were stationed or positioned on the Likari
4 A. You can't [Realtime transcript read in error "can] say we were
5 reinforcements because they didn't actually ask for anyone to go up there.
6 We decided of our own accord to go to Likari. We had heard that there
7 were some men from Voljavica there. And we thought if we got to Likari we
8 would be able to go down to our villages Voljavica and Zalazje because we
9 had no other way of getting food. We had to go to Voljavica in order to
10 look for food and that's why we decided of our own accord -- I mean,
11 nobody had forced us to go there, up to Likari, I mean. We --
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Vidovic.
13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, just a slight
14 correction for the transcript. He -- the witness said: "You can't say
15 that we were reinforcements." And it says in the transcript "you can't
16 say." But he went on to explain it. It says "you can say we were
17 reinforcements," whereas in fact the witness said "you can't say we were
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you for the clarification. I think it's also
20 obvious, as you said, from the rest of the transcript.
21 Let's proceed. Thank you.
22 MS. SELLERS:
23 Q. Mr. Malagic, was there any time period between mid-June 1992,
24 December 1992 when members of your group were not positioned at Likari?
25 A. This group that I'm referring to was at Likari, I mean this group
1 of Osman's. After Osman's death Zajko Alic took over as leader of that
2 group. We were all at Likari except when we went to visit our families
3 somewhere in Srebrenica or somewhere else, or to simply wash or something.
4 Q. You would agree, it was a permanent position. Correct?
5 A. When we got to Likari we saw that it was close to Voljavica and
6 that we had to stay there as close to our own village. I mean, we could
7 have left Likari at any time; nobody would have stopped us.
8 Q. Mr. Malagic, I understand that. I'm just saying you were
9 permanently positioned there during the time period you were in
11 A. We were not positioned there by anyone. We were simply spending
12 time there. Where else could we go to withdraw into Srebrenica and sit
13 and wait to be killed? I mean, we had nowhere else to go.
14 Q. Well, can I ask you then the other group with Nasir Sabanovic,
15 were they also there permanently positioned in the manner which you have
17 A. They had no other place to go except there. Their families had
18 mostly been chased in the direction of Tuzla and Potcaus and sometimes
19 they would spend the night at the village of Gostilj, sometimes they would
20 come to Likari. But they were moving around that area, Gostilj or some
21 other villages where people would offer hospitality. They would go to
22 those houses in order to take a shower, for example. Potcaus was closer
23 than Voljavica and they could not go down there. They tried a number of
24 occasions, I do remember it clearly, and whoever would try to do so would
25 be captured. Whoever tried to get to Potcaus, I mean.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Q. Now, while you were on this important, essential, both military
2 point -- plateau, were you aware of other front lines or lines of firing -
3 I'm trying to remember your terminology exactly as you had used it - that
4 were in the Srebrenica municipality?
5 A. We knew that there was a lot of shelling and an attack being
6 launched against Bljeceva which is below Potocari between Bratunac and
7 Potocari, the village called Bljeceva. We did know of that line. There
8 was intense shelling there and we also knew of Pirici and Poloznik where
9 we were before we knew that Chetniks were launching attacks there. And
10 that was where most of our people were who had fled, in fact. Because we
11 were interested in that because we had many of our people up there.
12 Q. Now, could you just explain to me very briefly: How did you know
13 about these other front lines?
14 A. As to Bljeceva, you could hear it on a daily basis. I mean, if
15 you were in Likari you could hear the shooting from Bljeceva. And as to
16 Pirici and Poloznik, we knew from before, from before we got to Likari
17 because we were there and our people were going to look for food all the
18 time, and that's how we would get the information about people being
19 killed by shells and about those fierce attacks against Pirici and
20 Poloznik. I mean, people were setting off looking for food at the same --
21 at that time and there was no way of stopping them. They had to look for
22 food in different places. They were here and there and everywhere going,
23 I don't know, looking for food at a distance of 100 kilometres.
24 Q. Now, are you referring to the armed men within the different
25 groups or referring to civilians, in terms of people looking for food?
1 A. I mean people looking for food, mostly.
2 Q. The armed men or the civilians or both?
3 A. You couldn't simply get a rifle from Likari and go to Srebrenica
4 or somewhere else. The rifle was needed up there because there weren't
5 enough rifles to go around as it was. So you couldn't just pick up a
6 rifle and go.
7 Q. So you would leave your weapons in Likari to keep as many
8 munitions there?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Okay. Thank you. Now, I would like to remind you that you
11 testified that when you were in Likari that you received no support in
12 terms of food or ammunitions from Srebrenica. Is that your testimony or
13 have I misstated it? Logistics support.
14 A. We got no logistical support from anyone whatsoever.
15 Q. And when you yourself would have to get food, would you tell me,
16 tell the Trial Chamber, did you go into Srebrenica to get food? Was there
17 food in Likari? Or did you go back to Voljavica?
18 A. No. We got our food only and exclusively from Voljavica at that
20 Q. So you would return to Voljavica from Likari on a frequent basis
21 or on a regular basis in order to search for food. That's your testimony?
22 A. Yes, very frequently.
23 Q. Now, was Samed Hasanovic also with you in Likari?
24 A. No. Samed or Samid?
25 Q. Samed.
1 A. No. Do you mean in our group with Osman?
2 Q. No, no, I mean among the different fighters who were stationed in
4 A. That name does not sound familiar with reference to Likari and I
5 knew everyone because we spent a long time there.
6 Q. Thank you. I would now like to ask you that during your five
7 months near Srebrenica, did you have a chance to walk around the town in
8 Srebrenica while you were visiting your family?
9 A. I myself could only go very rarely, perhaps once a week, no more
10 than that and sometimes not even that often, depending on how things stood
11 up there.
12 Q. And what was the distance between Likari and Srebrenica?
13 A. Perhaps 8 to 10 kilometres, thereabouts. I can't tell you
14 exactly. It would take about an hour, an hour and a half to get there,
15 depending on what part of Srebrenica you were going to. If you wanted to
16 go to the centre of town it was, yeah, maybe 7, 8 kilometres because we
17 couldn't use the regular roads. We had to avoid the shells. We walked
18 through the woods and creeks.
19 Q. And then I would just ask you: In terms of Potocari, what was the
20 distance between Likari and Potocari?
21 A. 4 to 5 kilometres, thereabouts. Perhaps I'm not quite precise,
22 but roughly speaking.
23 Q. And when you were in Srebrenica you would occasionally see the
24 people whose name I tried to pronounce on your visits to Srebrenica.
1 A. I did, but very rarely.
2 Q. Okay.
3 MS. SELLERS: I would ask that the witness now be shown document
4 458, please, Prosecution Exhibit 458. Your Honour, Prosecution Exhibit
5 458 is what the Prosecution team refers to as the military police log, for
6 ease of designation.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
8 MS. SELLERS: I would refer the Trial Chamber to page 8 in the
9 English version and I believe it's on Sanction. Excuse me one minute,
10 Your Honour.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
12 [Prosecution counsel confer]
13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] If the Prosecutor could always also
16 give us the page in the Bosnian version so that we can follow.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
18 MS. SELLERS: Yes. Your Honour, I understand to give the date in
19 the Bosnian version, the date and that will indicate the page, since it's
20 chronologically. I'm looking at the 6th of December, 1992.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: I think it's page 9 -- no 8 I think.
22 MS. SELLERS: And it starts with "Mustafa Delic."
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Tell me, Madam Vidovic, when you've found it.
24 MS. SELLERS: My apologies, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Have you found it?
1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I have, Your Honour. Thank
3 JUDGE AGIUS: And has the witness found it? It's an entry on page
4 8, I take it, page 8 or page 9. It's --
5 MS. SELLERS: I understand it's --
6 [Prosecution counsel confer]
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, if you indicate -- if you put it on the ELMO I
8 can show you exactly where it is.
9 MS. SELLERS: If you would place it on the ELMO.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: No, I think we have to go to 9.
11 MS. SELLERS: I understand it might be page 9 or 10. Page 10.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, page 10, there it is. It's that page over
14 MS. SELLERS:
15 Q. Mr. Malagic, where there is a date of 6 December 1992, and then
16 after it, it says: "Mustafa Delic," and then again: "Mustafa" -- do you
17 see where I'm reading from, sir?
18 A. Yes. Yes, I do.
19 Q. Thank you. I'm just going to read a bit of this
20 section: "Mustafa Delic, son of Hamid born 19 July 1963 in Voljavica
21 residing in Srebrenica in Ostoja Petrovic's house.
22 "During the day a few friends came over, and their names are as
23 follows." Among the names on the list after, it was Bajro Omerovic of
24 Voljavica and Ejub Sukic [phoen] of Voljavica
25 Now, those first two names, Mustafa Delic and Bajro Omerovic, are
1 those the names that you recognised in your testimony as coming from
3 A. You asked about their names at the outset, whether I knew them and
4 whether they were from Voljavica. And I confirmed that, yes.
5 MS. SELLERS: I would now ask the assistance of the usher again.
6 And I am turning to in the English version page 14. The date is Saturday,
7 the 12th of December, 1992. I will be assisted with the page number on
8 the B/C/S version in a second. 17 I understand.
9 Q. If you see --
10 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. I want to make sure that the Defence
11 has located the entry.
12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I believe I have, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
14 And I also want to make sure that the witness has the correct page
15 in front of him.
16 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
18 Yes, Madam Sellers.
19 MS. SELLERS:
20 Q. If you see in the box: "Seniority, 12 December, 1992," it's
21 followed by: "Hajrudin Suljic, son of Dahmo, born 15 May, 1971, in
22 Voljavica, mother Tima" --
23 A. I don't see that. It's Salkic Jusuf born in Osatica [phoen].
24 JUDGE AGIUS: So while on Sanction while the pages were scrolling
25 I think there were others --
1 MS. SELLERS: It's page 18, I understand. My apologies.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Are we there?
3 MS. SELLERS:
4 Q. Mr. Malagic, do you see where I'm reading now request it
5 says: "Hajrudin Suljic, son of Dahmo, born 15 May 1971 in Voljavica,
6 mother Tima, nee Suljic, served in the army as a member of the police
8 Do you recognise that person's name as coming from Voljavica?
9 A. Well, if he was born in 1971 and came from Voljavica, I would
10 certainly know him. But -- well, if this person came from Voljavica, I
11 would be sure to know him, Hajrudin Suljic. I would know him if he was
12 from Voljavica. Perhaps he's not from Voljavica. I didn't now any such
13 person in Voljavica.
14 Q. Is it possible that he was born there and could have lived
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Can he tell you? I mean --
17 MS. SELLERS: You're right. Your Honour, I withdraw the question.
18 It's a hypothetical, as we've had on direct examination. You don't have
19 to answer that question. Let me move on to another question. I'll
20 withdraw that.
21 I would now ask that we go to page 16 in the English version, 14th
22 of December, 1992. And I have the page in B/C/S.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't think it can be 16 because 12th of December
24 was 18. So it's 21, I think.
25 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, it's 22 in the B/C/S. And it starts
1 with: "Mehmed Malagic."
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
3 Q. Mr. Malagic, is this the person you referred to, I believe, as
4 your uncle?
5 A. Yes. Yes, it is, yes.
6 Q. Now, if you would just follow what it says: "Mehmed Malagic, son
7 of Ramo, born in 1937 in Voljavica, residing in Srebrenica."
8 And he talks about: "We brought the grain from a friend from
9 Potocari. Apart from that, we also brought grain from Voljavica."
10 A. Yes. That's nothing new.
11 Q. Do you recognise that as some of the things that your uncle did
12 while he was in Srebrenica, that getting grain from Voljavica or from
13 friends in Potocari? Are you aware of that?
14 A. It says here that he brought some grain from friends in Potocari
15 and some from Voljavica. He was an elderly man. He often went to get
16 grain like everybody else in order to survive. I don't know what the
17 purpose of this is. He was an elderly man.
18 Q. Yes. Then you do recognise those events. In you would still bear
19 with me, I'm now on page 21. "On the 20th of December, 1992," and I will
20 tell you that it is page 28 in the B/C/S.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Jones.
22 MR. JONES: It's just an objection to that commentary "you do
23 recognise those events." He's referred to the fact that his uncle went
24 like everybody else in order to survive, to get grain. He hasn't
25 specifically confirmed that he's familiar with these specific events
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 referred to in the -- in this document, and so I would object to that
3 JUDGE AGIUS: What's your comment on that Ms. --
4 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I believe that that was a question.
5 Okay, now if he wants me to pose other questions, that's fine. That
6 wasn't a characterisation of the question.
7 Q. Mr. Malagic, did your uncle while in Srebrenica go out at times to
8 get grain and seek food?
9 A. Yes.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Jones, and thank you, Ms. Sellers.
11 MS. SELLERS: Thank you, Your Honour. Your Honours, I'm now on
12 page 21 of the English version.
13 Q. And, Mr. Malagic, I'm on page 28 of the B/C/S version. And the
14 date is the 20th of December, 1992. I would like to go down this page
15 where it says: "Suad is on the front in Voljavica and Bekto" - with a
16 B - "Muhic, Suad's father has gone to get food."
17 Are those the names that you recognise when I read the list out
18 earlier in your testimony today? Are you able to find where we are?
19 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment before he answers because I think the
20 Defence is having problems finding it.
21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. We do beg the
22 Prosecutor when using such voluminous documents to prepare in advance the
23 page numbers in B/C/S. That's what we always do in the case of English.
24 We're always having problems finding these pages. I've just found it.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I found it but the date is not the
2 20th. It's on page 29. Yes, it is the 20th, but it's only on page 29 in
3 the Bosnian version.
4 MS. SELLERS:
5 Q. Thank you very much. My apologies again.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: That's correct because previously we were directed
7 to page 28. Yes, let's --
8 MS. SELLERS: Yes, Your Honour --
9 JUDGE AGIUS: He's in a position to answer the question.
10 MS. SELLERS:
11 Q. Mr. Malagic, do you recognise the names, and that is Bekto Muhic
12 and Suad Muhic?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Now I would ask that we turn to the B/C/S on page -- pardon me?
15 A. Excuse me.
16 Q. Go on, sir.
17 A. It says here Suad is on the position in Voljavica, and Bekto
18 Muhic, his father, has gone to get food. This Suad was never at the
19 positions in Voljavica as far as I know, and I know very well. I'm sure
20 of it.
21 Q. Okay. Thank you very much. Do you know where Suad was?
22 JUDGE AGIUS: On the 20th of --
23 MS. SELLERS: On the 20th of December, 1992, or there around.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wouldn't know because we were in
25 Voljavica then, that group from Likari, all of us. So I wouldn't know
1 where he was. He's a young man. I know him well.
2 MS. SELLERS:
3 Q. Thank you very much. Please now turn to page 39 in the B/C/S.
4 From my indication here it should be near the top of the page, and we're
5 on page 26 of the English -- 39. The date I have is the 29th of December,
6 1992. Mr. Malagic, under the -- where it says: "29 December, 1992."
7 Then it says Muhamed Cvrk mother's name Ramiza Suljagic residing in
9 Do you see where I am, sir?
10 A. Yes, yes.
11 Q. It also says: "He was brought to the military police station at
12 the order of the War Presidency for taking a rotary hoe."
13 And then it says: "I brought the rotary hoe before the war from
14 Voljavica to Bojna. The rotary hoe belongs to my cousin, Mehmed Cvrk, and
15 I brought it."
16 Now, do you recognise the names here as the names that you
17 testified about earlier?
18 A. I have to comment on this because this is the date when I was
19 wounded, and that Cvrk Muhamed was also wounded in Voljavica as well as
20 Mirsad Omerovic and another man. The four of us were in Voljavica
21 together and all four of us were wounded together. I can describe the
22 event to you; it's interesting, if you wish. But I know for certain that
23 Muhamed Cvrk was with us in the group together with his brother Jusuf Cvrk
24 whom I mentioned yesterday and he was wounded on that day together with
25 me. A bomb exploded and I was wounded in the face. He was hit in the
1 arm, another man in the back, and Mirsad was wounded in the leg. And this
2 was at the entrance to Voljavica from Pobrdje. He was with me then.
3 Q. Okay. And is his mother's name Ramiz Suljagic? Is this the man
4 whose mother's name is stated there?
5 A. I couldn't tell you. I knew his mother but not her name.
6 Q. Okay. And I would like to ask you now -- and you testified
7 earlier that that is the name Cvrk and Suljagic and that family name is
8 known in Zalazje, if I remember correctly, Cvrk?
9 A. More in Voljavica than in Zalazje. In Zalazje there were perhaps
10 just two families; there were more in Voljavica.
11 Q. Okay. I would now ask you to go back to what is page 8 in the
12 English version. It's the first entry that we looked at. I believe it's
13 page 9 in the B/C/S version, and it's the 6th of December, 1992. And page
14 9 in the B/C/S version, and it's the 6th of December, 1992. And of course
15 that is the segment that starts with Mustafa Delic, son of Hamid?
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Page 10 in the B/C/S version.
17 MS. SELLERS: Yes, it goes over to page 10. Thank you,
18 Your Honour.
19 Q. Mr. Malagic, I would just ask you -- I've read this into the
20 record. Would you look over this entry briefly. We have the names and
21 then it says: "At around 1500 hours Fahro Smajovic fired his TT 7.62
22 millimetre pistol twice at the door and a VP patrol which came afterwards
23 found one cartridge."
24 And then it says: "At around 1700 hours, the men left and I was
1 It goes on to say: "Just before 1830 hours, when Ahmet Omanovic
2 was wounded, I heard shots from an automatic weapon ..."
3 My question to you, Mr. Malagic: As a former police officer,
4 is this standard manner in which to write down information in a police
6 A. We had forms. If we didn't have any forms, we could enter a
7 description of events in our own words and at the bottom state the source
8 of the information. Let me just have a look here. As far as I can see,
9 there is a description of the event. But there's no information on the
10 people who made statements. You always had to enter the names of
11 witnesses, who was an eyewitness, who was there, their details, the date,
12 the hour, exactly when something happened. This doesn't look like a
13 police report in the real sense of the word.
14 Q. But is this report containing the information that you testified
15 about earlier in terms of people's names, dates of their birth, their
16 parents, information concerning the reason that they might have been
17 brought in or questioned by a police officer?
18 A. The people mentioned here, I said I knew Mustafa Delic, son of
19 Hamid. He was from Voljavica. I saw him occasionally but rarely when I
20 went to Srebrenica. Then you see Reuf Suljic from Voljavica, I knew him,
21 too. Omerovic Bajro from Voljavica, I knew him as well. All these are
22 men that I knew from before.
23 Q. Okay. Thank you very much. Just one minute, please.
24 [Prosecution counsel confer]
25 MS. SELLERS:
1 Q. Mr. Malagic, now I'd ask you to go to page 4, and it would be
2 B/C/S page 5. It's dated 4 December, 1992. Now, I'm looking at the part
3 that says: "At around 1720 hours, Mirsada Hodzic, residing in Vidikovac,
4 came to the military police station with her common-law husband, Hasib
5 Jusupovic to report Alija Suljic and his brothers for allegedly attacking
6 her and threatening her husband by putting a pistol to his neck while
7 other men beat him."
8 Do you see where I'm reading? Sir, do you see where I'm reading
10 A. Yes. Yes, I do.
11 Q. Okay. Then it continues on to say: "I sent a VP patrol from the
12 station to bring in Alija Suljic and his brother Hajrudin.
13 "The patrol brought the two Suljic brothers at 1920 hours."
14 Is this -- my question: Is this more in keeping with police
15 reporting in your experience as a reserve police officer, the manner in
16 which this entry has been made?
17 A. No. This is not the manner in which an experienced policeman
18 would draw up such a report. I don't see a signature here. A policeman
19 has to sign the report if he has taken a statement, and this is all in one
20 and the same handwriting in this log, as you call it. It's all in the
21 same handwriting. It's impossible for one policeman, a single policeman,
22 to have written all of these reports. I don't know of the existence of
23 any military police in this period in Srebrenica.
24 The 4th of December. That is when Rifat Suljic [phoen] from
25 Voljavica died of starvation. Had there been a military police at the
1 time, or rather -- I don't exclude the possibility that there was, but I
2 can't say there was. I would find it very odd. But you can see for
3 yourself, it's all in the same handwriting. So it would all have had to
4 be done by the same policeman carrying out onsite investigations. That's
5 impossible. I'm not a forensic expert, but you can see it's all in one
6 and the same handwriting.
7 Q. Mr. Malagic, then would you agree that under the circumstances
8 that you've described Srebrenica, that this type of military log would
9 be in keeping with the conditions of a city that was being -- clearly at
11 A. I haven't read the entire log, but my uncle is mentioned here. I
12 don't know what he did wrong. He was an honest man. He went to look for
13 food and was brought in by the military police. And about these other
14 events, I cannot exclude the possibility that this police existed. But
15 under the conditions prevailing in Srebrenica at the time, for somebody to
16 have kept this log entering all these dates in all this nice handwriting,
17 that I do exclude as a possibility. This was in December when everybody
18 knew that a Serb offensive was in the offing. And all people could think
19 about is how to survive, whether they could somehow break through. That's
20 what was on people's minds at the time.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Mr. Jones.
22 MR. JONES: Yes, it's one matter which may be important later. I
23 think we all heard in English the intonation when the witness read: "He
24 went in to look for food and was brought in by the military police," it
25 was as a question. It's an extraordinary statement. In the transcript it
1 comes out as a statement. It's a small point, but I wouldn't want it just
2 to be thought later that he was stating that fact --
3 JUDGE AGIUS: That's how we heard it, too.
4 MR. JONES: Yes.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
6 MS. SELLERS:
7 Q. Mr. Malagic, you're giving a hypothetical proposition that there
8 might have been a military police but you didn't know about it. Isn't
9 that your testimony?
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, that's what he's saying.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I did not know of it.
12 MS. SELLERS:
13 Q. Thank you, thank you. I hope that clarifies it. Yes.
14 MS. SELLERS: You can remove the document from Mr. Malagic,
16 Your Honour, do you want to continue or --
17 JUDGE AGIUS: I think if we can stop here -- how much more --
18 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, it will take at least one or one and a
19 half sessions of tomorrow, so ...
20 JUDGE AGIUS: What's the position with the next witness?
21 MR. JONES: Yes, well, I do -- I do want to register a concern
22 about the next witness, quite honestly.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Because I take it there will be a re-examination on
24 your part?
25 MR. JONES: I imagine there will be. I can't see my colleague,
1 but I'm sure there will be.
2 The concern about the next witness is, obviously, he's in The
3 Hague being proofed.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
5 MR. JONES: He's a doctor with an extremely busy schedule and
6 that's something we didn't anticipate, that he would have to stay over the
7 weekend. And so we would really urge -- I'm not sure if he's able to be
8 released from the hospital next week. He's a trauma surgeon and has all
9 sorts of obligations. So we were sincerely hoping that Thursday and
10 Friday would be allocated to him. Obviously, if there were unforeseen
11 problems, then it would certainly pose a lot of difficulties. He might
12 have to come back on a subsequent occasion to The Hague.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Right. Yes. At least be -- I want to rest your
14 mind, put your mind at rest that we will do whatever's required, saving --
15 just keeping my fingers crossed that I would be able to make it tomorrow.
16 There's a Scottish remedy that usually works with me.
17 MR. JONES: Yes, and there will be a doctor in the house tomorrow.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Sellers, if we can stop here I think it
19 will be better. Let me go home and try to recover my energies as much as
20 possible so that I will be here tomorrow. Otherwise, if I start getting
21 feverish, I will not come over for sure. All right? Thank you.
22 One moment. I want to explain to the witness. Please sit down
23 and put your earphones back, please. Mr. Malagic, we are stopping here
24 and we will continue tomorrow. We'll definitely finish with you tomorrow.
25 We're stopping here -- we would have stopped in another 12 minutes' time
1 in any case, particularly because I am not feeling well and I want to make
2 sure that we finish with you tomorrow so that I will go home and try to
3 rest a little bit and recover. In the meantime you will be escorted like
4 you were yesterday, and make sure you don't communicate with anyone.
5 Thank you.
6 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.34 p.m.,
7 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 29th day of
8 September, 2005, at 9.00 a.m.