1 Friday, 30 September 2005
2 [Open session]
3 Upon commencing at 9:05 a.m.
4 [The accused entered court]
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Registrar, good morning to you. Could
6 you call the case, please.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes. Good morning, Your Honours. This is the
8 Case Number IT-03-68/T, the Prosecutor versus Naser Oric.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Madam.
10 Mr. Oric, can you follow the proceedings in your own language?
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours, ladies
12 and gentlemen. I can follow the proceedings in my mother tongue.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. And good morning to you. You may sit
15 Appearances for the Prosecution.
16 MR. WUBBEN: Good morning, Your Honours, and also good morning to
17 my learned friends of the Defence. My name is Jan Wubben, lead counsel of
18 the Prosecution. I am here together with co-counsel, Mr. Gramsci Di
19 Fazio, and our case manager, Mrs. Donnica Henry-Frijlink. Later on this
20 morning Ms. Patricia Sellers will also join the team.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I thank you, Mr. Wubben, and good
22 morning to you and your team.
23 Mr. Jones, appearances for Naser Oric.
24 MR. JONES: Thank you. May it please Your Honour. I appear on
25 behalf of Naser Oric, and I am joined with Jasmina Cosic, our legal
1 assistant, and Geoffrey Roberts, our CaseMap manager. Apologies for
2 Ms. Vidovic not attending today. She is proofing a witness is into that
3 rather than --
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, I was just hoping -- the fact that she's not
5 having the same --
6 MR. JONES: No. Certainly not, no.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: -- as I am. All right. So can I suggest to you that
8 any preliminaries be left till the end of this sitting so that we make
9 sure that we finish with this witness.
10 MR. JONES: Certainly. I have a brief one which I can mention
11 even as the witness is being brought in. It's simply to say that the
12 witness who is scheduled for Wednesday we've decided to drop, and the
13 reason the reason is that at this stage his evidence --
14 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, that way I don't get confused. I need
15 to see who he is and you've got me on the wrong foot. Yes, here it is.
16 That's number witness 42?
17 MR. JONES: I'm afraid I don't have the number in front of me.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Is it Srecko Lovicic.
19 MR. JONES: Precisely, Your Honour, yes. And, as I say, at
20 this stage his evidence would be of a cumulative nature and so
21 unnecessary. It's also not been easy to contact him due to his job and his
23 JUDGE AGIUS: It's not a problem.
24 MR. JONES: I should say, we don't have a witness who we could at
25 this stage arrange to give evidence in one day. Conversely, the witness
1 who is scheduled for Monday and Tuesday --
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Probably will --
3 MR. JONES: -- anticipate will run on --
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.
5 MR. JONES: -- just to inform everybody on the Prosecution.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you.
7 While the witness is being brought in, yesterday I made a mistake
8 which I apologise for and I am going to rectify. When I said the
9 transcript next to the video that we saw, video exhibit 441, the
10 transcript I marked 441.1. It should become 441 -- P441.2, and not point
11 1. So please make note of that because P441.1 already existed. It was
12 another transcript from the same video used on the previous occasion, but
13 I was not aware of it. Thank you. Or I had forgotten it, actually.
14 MR. WUBBEN: Apart from that, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Wubben.
16 MR. WUBBEN: I notice that the transcript is not functioning.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: It is functioning now. Mine is functioning. Can I
18 suggest that you press the escape the escape button on your keyboard and
19 if it was not functioning before it should, because sometimes by accident
20 you press a button and you stop the scrolling on the screen. Oh, I see
21 what you mean. It's not -- I see what you mean. On the laptop -- it is
22 rolling on the laptop. It's on the main monitor that it isn't. So I
23 don't know how that affects the transcript record. I don't think it
25 Yeah, I know they are working on it. The thing is I don't think
1 it should stop us from continuing. In any case the laptop is working and
2 everyone has a laptop. Yes. Yeah, but the lines won't yeah, we missed a
3 few lines, but anyway. Where is the witness?
4 [The witness entered court]
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning, Dr. Mardel.
6 THE WITNESS: Morning.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning. Please make yourself comfortable and
8 we are proceeding with your testimony. We are -- just for the sake of
9 formality rather than anything else, because I know you are aware of this,
10 remind you that you are testifying under oath.
11 THE WITNESS: Yes.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Jones.
13 WITNESS: SIMON MARDEL [Resumed]
14 Examined by Mr. Jones: [Continued]
15 Q. Good morning, Dr. Mardel.
16 A. Yes.
17 THE INTERPRETER: Would the speakers make pauses between questions
18 and answers.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: You've heard that, Mr. Jones.
20 MR. JONES: Yes, indeed.
21 Q. Now, yesterday when we left off Dr. Mardel you were telling us how
22 you set off for Srebrenica from Konjevic Polje on the night of Friday,
23 the 5th of March, 1993. My question is: What had you heard, if anything,
24 of Srebrenica when you were in Sarajevo before you even set off on this
1 A. There was always a great deal of concern over the enclaves and I
2 worked and lived in Sarajevo, and at major meetings with Bosnian officials
3 it was always -- the plight of the enclaves was always raised and it was
4 well-known that -- to me that Srebrenica had not had any convoy or any
5 form of assistance for several months and that convoys were unable to --
6 were not being allowed to enter the enclave. And a colleague of mine had
7 actually been stuck in one of those convoys held up I think on the bridge
8 at Zvornik, but I have no personal knowledge of the place. But it was
9 always mentioned -- held up by disagreement from the Serb -- Bosnian Serbs
10 to allow them to enter.
11 Q. Thank you. Now, we were looking yesterday at this book "Merry
12 Christmas, Mr. Larry." And two of those chapters now are exhibits. In
13 fact, I want to read a couple of sentences from an earlier chapter that
14 isn't an exhibit. I can exhibit it if need be, but it's really just one
15 sentence which I will put to the witness and I think that should suffice.
16 It's from chapter 8 which deals with --
17 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment because I want to make sure that my
18 colleagues agree to that.
19 [Trial Chamber confers]
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. You go ahead.
21 MR. JONES: Thank you, Your Honour.
22 Q. It's in chapter 8 which deals with Kamenica and there's a passage
23 dealing with refugees leaving there in Cerska and it says: "Meanwhile
24 countless women and children were forced to flee their homes to run in the
25 snow to Konjevici where Serb troops pounded them again, forcing those that
1 lived to slip and slide through the metre-high snow and the treacherous
2 ice to join the already overcrowded, besieged and starving Srebrenica
3 where conditions rivaled the worst conditions of the Middle Ages."
4 And I just want to ask you if that description fits with what you
5 were hearing of Srebrenica at the time, a place where conditions rivaled
6 the worst conditions of the Middle Ages.
7 A. Before I arrived in Srebrenica, we did not have any authoritative
8 account of conditions there; we only had Bosnian Muslim accounts
9 transmitted through their radio or whatever. So it was -- it was
10 complete -- relatively unknown whether the accounts were true or not.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes, okay.
13 So follow me, please, from line -- page 6, line 22 until page 7
14 line 22 are to be redacted.
15 MR. JONES: Right.
16 Q. Now --
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Wait, wait, wait, wait. I'm wrong. It has to be
18 redacted from before. And the redaction must be from page 6, line 6.
19 Page 6, line 6 with the words "the exhibit" -- "the exhibit is D224."
20 From there right up to page 7, line 22. I thank you, Mr. Di Fazio, for
21 pointing that out. I appreciate it.
22 MR. JONES: Yes.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Jones.
24 MR. JONES: Thank you, Your Honour.
25 Q. My question was: Looking at that list of names, was that the
1 group with travelled with you and General Morillon to Konjevic Polje?
2 A. Including myself, I recognise six out of the seven or eight names
4 Q. Right. That's fine. Thank you. If you could turn to the next
5 page. Firstly you'll see at item 7, wounded: "The WHO representative
6 made his way on foot to Srebrenica during the night of 5 March 1993."
7 So that confirms, does it not, what you told us yesterday that you
8 set off that first night, and didn't stay in Konjevic Polje?
9 A. That's correct.
10 Q. Now, if you look at item 4 on the same page it says: "Visit
11 outline. General Morillon met Nasar" -- N-a-s-a-r, first name -- "the
12 local commander of the entire Srebrenica pocket three times at the local
13 command post of the school at Konjevic Polje at 2000 hours, 5 March, and
14 at 0700 and 1100 hours, 6 March 1993."
15 Now, the first meeting according to that was at the school in
16 Konjevic Polje at 2000 hours on the 5th of March. Now, you told us
17 yesterday how you were present for a meeting when you arrived in Konjevic
18 Polje. Is that the meeting in question as far as you know?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Was General Morillon present at the meeting that you briefly
22 A. He definitely was.
23 Q. And was it in the school building?
24 A. That I don't know. There were tables, plenty of tables and chairs
25 I recall. That's all.
1 Q. Now, referring to this meeting yesterday, you said it was with --
2 "representatives" was the word you used. Is it right then that your
3 recollection is that there was more than one representatives on the
4 Bosniak side?
5 A. Yes, but I -- you know, I would -- I can't say why I formed that
6 opinion. I can't recall, you know, any details of -- of members -- of
7 members present.
8 Q. That's fine. I want you to just bear in mind in reference to
9 Nasar, N-a-s-a-r, in that exhibit and then we can turn to a new exhibit.
10 MR. JONES: And in fact I'd like to go into closed session for
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Let's do that, go to closed session, please.
13 [Private session]
11 Page 11616 redacted. Private session.
11 Page 11617 redacted. Private session.
9 [Open session]
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, we are in open session now.
11 MR. JONES:
12 Q. We come now to your trip into Srebrenica. Could you please just
13 describe for us what the journey was like after you left Konjevic Polje,
14 how you travelled what the distance was, how long it took and details of
15 that nature?
16 A. We had a motor vehicle, possibly a van, going up the road from
17 Konjevic Polje, a very short vehicle journey, and then stopped and took a
18 junction I think to the right, facing up a valley, and on foot through
19 snow. It was dark. I was accompanied by three, as I recall, definitely
20 very fit young men, all armed, who were very confident about the terrain.
21 And I think they lived in Srebrenica. They seemed to be really keen to
22 press on, to what I assumed was their homes. And they moved at a very
23 fast pace and carried my bags, at least for part of -- for most of the
24 way. There were zigzag -- there was a zigzag trail roughly that we were
25 following up the hillside or hillsides, often, and they were cutting
1 directly up the slope of the hill or mountainside, choosing not to go on
2 the path to save time. And it was a fast pace and through -- consequently
3 by leaving the path it was sometimes through deep snow.
4 Q. Deep, how deep?
5 A. At times it was over my knees. I wouldn't say it was all of that
6 and if it had all been like that we wouldn't have made any progress,
7 because that's very hard going, but at times it was above my knees. My
8 trousers were -- wool trousers were soaked from the snow melting on them.
9 Q. And you described that these other young men were very fit and you
10 were going at a very fast pace. How long did it actually take you on foot
11 to reach Srebrenica, more or less?
12 A. About six hours, possibly more.
13 Q. And at any stage were you able to estimate what distance you had
15 A. No. A colleague of mine looked at it on the map when -- much
16 later in Sarajevo and I remember him saying it was 30 kilometres. It was
17 very hilly terrain, just -- it was a -- it was a significant journey and
18 not one that I could easily understand how -- at that stage how they took
19 wounded over there, but they clearly did. It must have been a great deal
20 of effort.
21 Q. And as far as you understood it, that was the route from Konjevic
22 Polje to Srebrenica? It was a well-trodden route. Maybe I can put it a
23 different way. The route which you took was already one on which there
24 was a rough trail marked out?
25 A. I -- I don't know -- I'm -- I -- it's -- corresponded to the route
1 I took back. I don't remember the sort of details. I had to ask people
2 on the way back. I did some of the route back on my own, but I have
3 nothing -- no reason to believe it wasn't the usual route. They were just
4 cutting the corners of the zigzag trails on the up and downhill slopes.
5 Q. It was simply that, really, that there wasn't an easier route to
6 take as far as you knew, was there?
7 A. Absolutely not or we would have taken it.
8 Q. And what sort of physical condition were you in at that time?
9 A. I felt reasonably fit.
10 Q. And had you been doing any activities which kept you fit or which
11 adapted you or equipped you for this sort of vigorous exercise?
12 A. I'm a keen -- I used to do a lot of outdoor walking. I used to be
13 a climber, and it was difficult to keep fit in Sarajevo. I used to try
14 with weights going up and down staircases or running around some of the
15 underground and outside parts of the building.
16 Q. And would it be fair to say that even in that condition, this was
17 an arduous journey for you?
18 A. Definitely.
19 Q. Now, when did you arrive in Srebrenica, around what time?
20 A. About 2.00 in the morning.
21 Q. And how long, in fact, did you stay in Srebrenica for? And before
22 you consult any notes, we would need to know what you're referring to, and
23 if you can recollect without the notes that's better.
24 A. Well, five or six days --
25 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment because we come to the usual -- yes,
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Mr. Di Fazio.
2 MR. DI FAZIO: What nights are those?
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Exactly. I mean -- Dr. Mardel, the practice here is
4 that of course you can ask to refer to notes. The principle in viva voce
5 testimony is that you do not refer to notes, but if of course you want to
6 refresh your memory by reference to notes, we always allow witnesses to do
7 so, with the proviso, however, that either party and also the Chamber
8 itself can ask to have view of -- to see those notes. So do you want to
9 see them, Mr. Di Fazio?
10 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Jones, do you want to see them as well?
12 MR. JONES: Yes, because I'm not familiar with what particular
13 he's brought.
14 THE WITNESS: That's --
15 JUDGE AGIUS: These are notes to refresh your memory or to -- as
16 an aide-memoire, aren't they?
17 THE WITNESS: Yes, they are. They're a sketch of the numbers
18 summarised from my reports and the dates put in -- put on the page.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: I just want to make sure it's not a prepared
20 testimony, that's all.
21 [Trial Chamber confers]
22 MR. JONES: Yes. It's only this, Your Honour, I would prefer
23 actually if the witness didn't refer to notes just for the -- as you said
24 the preference is --
25 JUDGE AGIUS: I would prefer, too. But, Mr. Jones, you know --
1 MR. JONES: Yes, well, I'm going to put the question to him
2 whether he prefers --
3 Q. Dr. Mardel, I'll be showing you exhibits referring to various
4 matters so I hope it's not necessary to retain to every detail. Would you
5 be happy and content for us just to continue without you actually
6 referring to any notes?
7 A. I would be. The main note I had was to remind me -- myself of the
8 dates and numbers that I'd written in my reports, like numbers of wounded,
9 to save ...
10 Q. Yeah.
11 A. But I think I'm quite happy just to rely on memory.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's show them also to Mr. Di Fazio and we'll try
13 to do it this way: If possible, please try to rely on your memory rather
14 than your notes. If you need to refer to your notes, please tell us and
15 we will let you do that without any difficulty at all. After you have
16 finished, Mr. Di Fazio would like to have a look at them as well. And
17 could you just for the sake of formality tell us when you prepared those
19 THE WITNESS: The night before last.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Right.
21 THE WITNESS: The one-page summary, yes, I was alone in my hotel
22 room and I just tried to summarise the page. The small notes on hotel
23 note paper I was asked by Mr. Jones to comment on some papers and I made
24 some brief notes so that the following day I could summarise my --
25 JUDGE AGIUS: But you were alone when you prepared those?
1 THE WITNESS: Yes.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.
3 MR. JONES: Yes, if I may, Your Honour, just make one observation
4 I -- before this witness even referred to the notes we interceded and
5 certainly he hasn't referred to those notes yet. They haven't been part
6 of any memory-refreshing exercise at this point. So while I appreciate
7 Mr. Di Fazio is looking at those notes, really my preference is that those
8 notes -- they haven't been referred to in this sitting that they really
9 shouldn't be part of an interparty process of observation or consultation
10 at this point. Really, they're private notes as far as I can tell of this
12 JUDGE AGIUS: But the thing is they were in front of --
13 MR. DI FAZIO: They're in court.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: -- the witness. Pardon?
15 MR. DI FAZIO: They're in court with the witness.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
17 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, I would like a copy of this
18 to be made and to be provided with them, with the copy. For much of the
19 material of course I'm not concerned -- I'm not going to be concerned
20 about it but there are just some entries. Perhaps I could ask that
21 Your Honours have a look.
22 MR. JONES: Your Honour, I strenuously object to that.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's have a look and we'll decide, Mr. Jones.
24 We'll hear submissions on it and then we'll decide.
25 MR. DI FAZIO: I don't think there's much of a controversy here,
1 but, if You Honours please, There's the large page which doesn't cause me
2 any concern. There's this isolated which doesn't cause me any concern.
3 There is this last page which I'm interested in. And on this -- and is
4 attached to a cardboard cover. And this second cardboard cover with a
5 single page, and again most of the notes don't interest me, but there
6 is -- sorry, would you just bear with me for a moment. There is some
7 notes on the inside of this last page that interest me and they'll be
8 obvious to you why they should be --
9 MR. JONES: Your Honour, I'd appreciate in having another closer
10 look, because I couldn't imagine that actually there would be any issue of
11 these private notes --
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Which is the last one is this one? Is it this one?
13 MR. DI FAZIO: I believe so, yes. I can't see from here.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah. I'll let Mr. Jones see it before we see it as
16 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: So that -- now, where are they -- okay.
18 [Trial Chamber confers]
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, can we have it back, please?
20 MR. JONES: It's simply this page which is --
21 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated]
22 I realise I have to show it -- I have to read it and I show it to
23 the two colleagues. Let me see it together, basically.
24 [Trial Chamber confers]
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I think it's the case of asking the witness to
1 leave the courtroom for a while and we thrash this straight away and take
2 a decision.
3 Dr. Mardel, please -- you will understand. I mean procedurally we
4 need to discuss this in your absence. So it's -- doesn't benefit anyone
5 to have you hear to listen.
6 THE WITNESS: May I say something before I go to help clarify?
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
8 THE WITNESS: Because there is no heading to those pages. One is
9 a list of minor discrepancies in Mr. -- in Larry Hollingworth's chapter
10 that I was given to look through a few evenings ago. The other is a
11 nutritional -- is some -- a list of points from a nutritional paper. And
12 somewhere on that list is some things -- points that I wanted to make.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. But we --
14 [Trial Chamber confers]
15 JUDGE AGIUS: I mean, if he's not interested in -- we will see
16 them as well. We will call you back as soon as possible, Mr. -- Dr.
18 [Trial Chamber confers]
19 [The witness stands down]
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So let's -- what's your submission,
21 Mr. Di Fazio, to start with? What do you want? From what I can see here,
22 this part he hasn't referred to as yet. And the other part it seems to me
23 that he has also not referred to as yet.
24 MR. DI FAZIO: No, no.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: And I think now that you have -- you have actually
1 read through them, you can ask the questions that you'd like.
2 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't see why they ought to be in the records now
4 unless there is a good reason for them to be following your questions.
5 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, I agree with that.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.
7 MR. DI FAZIO: And I'd like to have a copy, though, because, I
8 mean, I haven't got an elephant's memory, I'm afraid.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: But this is the whole thing. This is the whole
10 thing, because they have not been made use of by the witness although he
11 had them in front of him. So technically speaking that the whole issue
12 arose because Mr. Jones saw him referring to notes.
13 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, yes, yes.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: So at this point in time I think the proper way to
15 go about it is to hand them back to the witness, ask him not to refer to
16 notes as much as possible because I can't stop him from referring to
17 notes. You know now what the contents of these two pages are.
18 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, because you have -- you have read them, just
20 as we have. I mean, for us they are of no interest until any related
21 matter is raised, and they can -- it can only be raised by you. If you
22 raise issues with the witness later on related to the contents of these
23 documents without specifically -- and we need to have these documents in
24 the records, then we will get them in the records.
25 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, I understand. When you say "get them in the
1 records," Your Honours mean -- are you talking about tendering them into
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Having them brought into evidence if necessary.
4 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, yes.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Because if it's not necessary, I'm not interested in
6 having more papers in the records.
7 MR. DI FAZIO: I know.
8 MR. JONES: Your Honour, if I may.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Jones.
10 MR. JONES: I'm concerned that there's a major, major procedural
11 impropriety which is in danger of taking place here. I'll set it out very
12 clearly Because in our submission what has just happened is wrong. Things
13 have not gone the way they have done in the last five or ten minutes. I
14 would correct Your Honour in terms of what you said about the witness
15 referring to the documents or having them in front of him. He had the
16 documents to one side in a folder. Anyways, as he drew that folder
17 towards him, when I said please don't refer to any notes, he hadn't
18 referred to anything, he wasn't looking in anything, and I'm sure the
19 videotapes will bear that out.
20 Now, in those circumstances the fact that a witness comes into
21 court with various documents he may have one in his breast coat pocket, he
22 may have one in his trousers. According to Mr. Di Fazio's argument any
23 witness would have to empty his pockets because it's in court and
24 therefore disclosable. The only basis for the Prosecution even having
25 sighted those documents and that's why even, having had sighted documents
1 is in my submission wrong, is if the witness wants to refresh his memory
2 or wants to refer to the documents. The moment the issue came up I
3 clarified with the witness that in fact he would be fine testifying
4 without refreshing his memory, without referring to his documents. At
5 that point, things should have stopped right there and the -- those
6 documents shouldn't have been shown to anyone because it's not a situation
7 justifying the Prosecution or Your Honours having sighted those notes and
8 in fact to bend the rules to sort of enable the Prosecution to have extra
9 material for cross-examination by looking at what is in fact privileged
10 notes by this witness is highly improper, and, if in due course, God
11 forbid, these notes should actually become exhibits, then certainly that's
12 a matter which I intend to appeal and complain about fully.
13 The fact is, if I may finish my submission, if Mr. Di Fazio would
14 grant me that courtesy. As this witness explained he prepared these notes
15 in his hotel room in preparation for proofing by me.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: He has every right to do that.
17 MR. JONES: And, Your Honour, imagine that I put certain questions
18 which I am entitled to put in full confidence and full privilege to a
19 witness. Suppose I had given him a list of questions to think about, and
20 had jotted them down, gone to his hotel room, thought about it, written
21 some notes down, the idea that the Prosecution should then have copies of
22 those notes as material for cross-examination is completely improper, is
23 completely wrong. And Mr. Di Fazio should in fact banish from his mind
24 anything which he has seen in those notes because he shouldn't have seen
1 So, Your Honour, in my submission the procedure that has been
2 adopted of showing these notes was wrong, but that it should go no further
3 from that, he should have his notes returned to him, he should be allowed
4 to testify orally, as he said he is willing to do, without referring to
5 the notes and then we can be done with. I would certainly object to
6 Mr. Di Fazio trying to recall from memory a matter which he shouldn't have
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Di Fazio.
9 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, the witness said that he prepared the notes
10 in preparation of his testimony here, unless I'm -- unless I've got it
11 wrong. Furthermore he had them ready on the witness table. They weren't
12 in his breast pocket. So to suggest that there's been any impropriety in
13 asking to see material that has brought into court with a witness who has
14 said that he's created material in order to assist him with his testimony
15 in court is the matter of the utmost concern to the Prosecution. But
16 having said that I just fail to see what the controversy is about. I've
17 got no objection to the witness coming back and in and not referring to
18 his notes anymore as he has said and in fact I rather doubt I am going to
19 have any much for him in cross-examination in any event. But there's
20 certainly been no impropriety on the part of Prosecution and the Trial
21 Chamber wanting to know -- wants notes if the witness himself says I've
22 prepared them in anticipation of giving testimony.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I think --
24 MR. JONES: May I respond to that?
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Jones.
1 MR. JONES: Because there's a straight ambiguity in the notion of
2 these documents being prepared for this litigation as if the witness had
3 prepared it because he wished to submit that in evidence. What he refers
4 to, because if he says it was in preparation for testifying, is that --
5 let's bear in mind this is a witness who is a doctor who is testifying
6 about public health issues involving statistics and numbers and if he in
7 the course of proofing felt the need to take pen to paper while he was
8 looking at documents, then I don't see how the Prosecution says that gives
9 them an absolute entitlement to have copies of anything which he jotted
10 down in that context. If that were true, then we may as well go and get
11 Mr. -- Dr. Mardel's notebook from his hotel room and make copies for the
12 Prosecution and copies of everything which he brought to The Hague.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: I think we -- it's a storm in a teacup and we can
14 deal with it without major ado. Let's bring the witness in again. These
15 can be returned to him to start with, and we will solve it without any big
17 Registrar, please.
18 [The witness entered court]
19 JUDGE AGIUS: And also much depends on the question that I am
20 going to put to the witness now.
21 [Trial Chamber confers]
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Dr. Mardel, I've given you back those aide-memoire
23 notes that we took from you later on. My suggestion to you is that you
24 try to do your best to rely on your memory rather than on your notes, but
25 if you need to rely -- to refresh my -- your memory by reference to those
1 notes, please do let us know. But then they have to be made available to
2 everyone. That's number one. Number two, you did have them in front of
3 you yesterday as well, didn't you?
4 THE WITNESS: I certainly had the summarising sheet. I -- whether
5 they were enclosed in the sheaf, I wasn't really expecting to need to
6 refer to them. I can't remember.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: But did you refer to that sheet during yesterday's
8 testimony at any time? I'm telling you because I was made aware yesterday
9 that he did have a sheet of paper with notes, but because since no one
10 raised the matter we didn't raise it ourselves. But I was made aware
11 yesterday. I'm telling you straight and plain now.
12 THE WITNESS: I probably -- when asked question of dates I
13 probably would have looked at my summarising dates just because my memory
14 for dates is not good.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: And can you just show it from the -- which -- and
16 you are not interested in that, Mr. Di Fazio?
17 MR. DI FAZIO: No.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.
19 So let's proceed for the time being.
20 Yes, Mr. Jones.
21 MR. JONES: Yes, thank you, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: And for the time being, that's our decision. Later
23 on we may come back to you on other matters, but let's proceed.
24 MR. JONES: Yes.
25 Q. And if -- for the time being, Dr. Mardel, it would be good if you
1 could actually put those papers away, perhaps in your breast pocket?
2 JUDGE AGIUS: I think that's a very wise advice, Mr. Jones.
3 MR. JONES:
4 Q. Now, in fact, when we -- before we broke off I was simply seeking
5 to establish how long you were in Srebrenica for. So if you can just tell
6 us roughly about how many days?
7 A. About five days.
8 Q. Did you return to Konjevic Polje after that?
9 A. That's correct.
10 Q. So I'm going to deal with these two episodes, first your stay in
11 Srebrenica and then your return to Konjevic Polje. First, can you give us
12 your impressions of Srebrenica when you arrived, not necessarily that
13 morning, but just that day and subsequent days?
14 A. Firstly, the hospital I was -- I was taken to in the night and
15 they gave me a room in the hospital, the only lighting anywhere was a
16 battery powering a car lamp, something the hospital -- there was an
17 intense smell of wound infection, very obnoxious, pungent smell even in
18 the room I was given to sleep in. I had to open the windows even though
19 it was very cold. The town was -- the buildings were -- many people
20 were -- many families were living together in -- in any buildings I
21 visited. More than -- much more than the -- as many inhabitants as they
22 could have, often with relatives or friends. Other buildings, municipal
23 buildings, like an old school people were taking shelter in. They --
24 outside of Srebrenica, one region I was able to visit higher up the
25 valley, much higher up the valley, I got given a lift in a lorry and there
1 was very little transport available, and it was unusual to get a lift like
2 that. I found people, again, crowded into wooden huts that they'd taken
3 up as shelter. People were obsessed with food shortage -- with the food
4 shortage. They had not had any aid delivered since I think November.
5 They were generally thin. Many people I saw were, especially outside of
6 the town I noticed some people were even physically weak even though they
7 were parents of children, they were, you know, not in a condition to go
8 into town, the long distance, relatively long distance to try and get food
9 from municipal authorities or -- there was a soup kitchen that was hardly
10 functioning and just distributing to a very small number of people in the
11 town itself.
12 Q. Can I stop you there. Firstly you referred to municipal
13 authorities. Were you in fact aware of any such authorities?
14 A. There was clearly some functioning -- what I would call municipal
15 authority in that they were collecting -- the air drops had started on
16 Srebrenica I think the night I walked in. So they had been collecting the
17 American ration packs and depositing them in a central basement,
18 supermarket basement store. And I was able to count how many packs that
19 they'd collected. I spoke to some local authorities for -- who were able
20 to tell me what the -- just show me where they had distributed the aid
21 from the convoy in November, and what little was left I think to provide
22 support to the particularly weak. That was the purpose of the soup
23 kitchen; it wasn't for everyone. It was for a selected, you know, sort of
24 destitute people. But only in the town.
25 Q. When you say "they collected these ration packs" which had been
1 dropped, who in fact was collecting these?
2 A. I know -- and photographed children -- anyone was collecting them.
3 Q. So are you in fact able to say whether this was something which
4 was organised or whether it was something which was done spontaneously?
5 A. I -- there must have been some organisation in that they were
6 being brought to a central point and people -- you know, I saw evidence
7 that some people were just eating them, you know, on the road. But, you
8 know, there must have been some cohesiveness and some social -- some
9 social order. But I have to say a significant concern about Srebrenica,
10 and one that I constantly heard, was that there was not a high degree of
11 organisation. And so that would mean that people, for example, outside of
12 the town would not be -- would not be able to access support. The
13 refugee -- the internally displaced people that were constantly coming
14 into the region, you know, would not be -- you know, would not easily
15 receive care. It's not sophisticated enough, the social structure.
16 Q. Right. So when you referred to municipal authorities, are you
17 referring to a civilian form of organisation just within the town itself,
18 the town of Srebrenica, if that?
19 A. As far as I know, it was civilian.
20 Q. Already. I wanted to return to the hospital where you arrived
21 the first morning. Did you meet a Dr. Nedret Mujkanovic?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. During the time you were in Srebrenica, did you see him perform
25 A. Yes, I did.
1 Q. Did you do a ward round with him?
2 A. Yes, a very long ward round.
3 Q. What sort of a knowledge did he have of the case histories of the
4 patients in the hospital?
5 A. A detailed knowledge and I could ask him questions about the cases
6 as we went through them one by one. And I made notes on -- a brief note
7 on each patient so that afterwards I could summarise the different types
8 of injury and conditions needing evacuation, needing medical evacuation.
9 And he was able to give me quite detailed -- I remember discussing and
10 asking him quite detailed questions about some individual cases.
11 Q. And what did you infer, if anything, from the fact that he had
12 this detailed knowledge?
13 A. He was --
14 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated]
15 You can lead him on this.
16 MR. JONES: Yes.
17 Q. Well --
18 MR. JONES: In fact, I wasn't intending to put any leading
19 question apart from this --
20 Q. Did you get an impression that he had actually operated on those
21 patients so that they were his patients?
22 A. The surgical or the war wounded were, as far as I could see and
23 recall, you know, must have been his patients.
24 Q. I'm going to refer to a passage in D777, as it is now, a chapter
25 from the Hollingworth book. It's at page 178?
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: The same chapter 9 of yesterday?
2 MR. JONES: Yes, the one from yesterday, chapter 9.
3 Q. This is D777, page 178, and it's about the third paragraph. And
4 I'll just read the passage. You'll see near the top it says "the next few
5 days were dominated by the" -- page 178. Yes. "The next few days were
6 dominated by the Simon saga," it says.
7 If we go further down to the second paragraph, in the third
8 sentence it's referring to Nedret Mujkanovic. His first words to Simon
9 were: "'I'm so glad you have come. There have been so many patients. I
10 could not do any more than I've done.' An explanation to a fellow
11 professional, and an apology to his patients, living and dead, from a
12 trained paediatrician who had carried out more than a thousand general
13 operations without equipment, without drugs, without lighting, while being
14 shelled. Nedret gave Simon a quick tour of the hospital and confirmed
15 Simon's worst fears. There was no food, no medicine and twenty deaths a
17 Now, does that fit with your understanding of what Dr. Mujkanovic
18 had been doing in the period prior to your arrival?
19 A. Yes, it does. I think it's wrong about him being a trained
20 paediatrician, as I recall.
21 Q. But apart from that?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Now, before I move to another area I want to ask you whether, in
24 the days you were in Srebrenica, did you have an opportunity to see the
25 town itself and the buildings around the town?
1 A. Yes, I certainly did.
2 Q. Did you take any photographs?
3 A. I did.
4 Q. All right.
5 MR. JONES: Your Honours, I have several photographs which I'm not
6 sure -- copies will be distributed. There are I think eight of them, but
7 as they deal with different subjects I'm going to exhibit them separately
8 rather than as one photographic exhibit.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.
10 MR. JONES: And for the moment -- well, we'll distribute the
11 photographs and then I'll select the two which I want to look at now.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Do it whatever way you like, Mr. Jones.
13 MR. JONES:
14 Q. Now, firstly, I'll just ask you just to look at all the
16 MR. JONES: If the witness could look at the whole bundle.
17 Q. And tell us whether you recognise those photographs.
18 A. They're all photographs I took in Srebrenica or possibly in
19 Konjevic Polje. And --
20 Q. Right. Well, we'll deal with each one, one by one.
21 A. I think they're from Srebrenica.
22 Q. Now, all but two of these pictures show people, but for the moment
23 I just want to look at the two which -- which do not show people, which
24 show buildings. And if you could just tell us where those were taken,
25 those pictures were taken. There's one with a minaret on the right-hand
1 side and then one of a burnt-out building.
2 A. One is what I recall as the town -- as the centre of town and
3 another part -- another part of Srebrenica itself.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: This is going to confuse matters, Mr. Jones. Let me
5 come to assistance.
6 Take -- Madam Usher, please remove the photo which is at the
7 bottom of -- on the screen. Yes. And put the other on centre. Now, this
8 document, let's mark it straight away, Mr. Jones.
9 MR. JONES: Yes, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: This will become Exhibit D779. Correct? D779.
11 MR. JONES: Yes.
12 Q. And can you just tell us what that shows.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: No, because he will be using them at different
14 times, I suppose. So let's give them separate ones.
15 [Trial Chamber confers]
16 JUDGE AGIUS: 779. Could you kindly explain to us or describe to
17 us what this photo depicts, Dr. Mardel, please.
18 THE WITNESS: It's in the town of Srebrenica at a junction of
19 several streets or -- or paths. And it shows a number of buildings, some
20 of which are completely destroyed and offer no -- offer no form of shelter
21 or very little shelter.
22 MR. JONES:
23 Q. And was that a common or uncommon sight in Srebrenica?
24 A. It was a common sight.
25 Q. Okay. Thank you.
1 MR. JONES: And then the next photograph which would be D780.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Now, but back the other photo I asked you to remove
3 earlier on, please. Now, this photo which shows a minaret on the
4 right-hand side is being marked as Defence Exhibit D780, D780.
5 And once more, Dr. Mardel, I mean, I'll ask you to describe what
6 it depicts.
7 THE WITNESS: It's looking down a high street. There's an
8 abandoned or destroyed car and there's signs of some vehicle tracks in the
9 road, people walking, and most of the houses on one side of the street are
10 badly, badly damaged, again offering no effective shelter from the heavy
12 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you.
13 MR. JONES: All right. Thank you. Yes, I'm finished with those
14 two photographs.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: It's referring with the previous photo, the one
16 which was 779, if you can put it back. Let's -- looking at the it again,
17 the building in the -- at the -- on the left of the photo, that's not the
18 main mosque in Srebrenica, with the Domavija Hotel in the back, maybe?
19 THE WITNESS: I don't know. I don't recall. It looks sort of
20 Ecclesiastical. I don't recall.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Sorry, Mr. Jones, for interrupting you.
22 MR. JONES: Not at all.
23 Q. Now, while you were in Srebrenica, did you assess the public
24 health situation in the town?
25 A. Yes, I did.
1 MR. JONES: I would ask that the witness be shown D232, and --
2 Defence Exhibit D232, and we looked at this briefly yesterday.
3 Q. Now, are you in fact the author of this document?
4 A. I am.
5 Q. One preliminary matter. The date on the front page is written as
6 23/2/93. Is that in fact accurate or not?
7 A. That would have been a mistake and another thing I should point
8 out, the distribution to those agencies, this is -- later given to them in
9 response to a request. The main document was not written, obviously, with
10 them in mind. It was for general distribution to all agencies, and
11 particularly my own.
12 Q. Okay. Thank you. Aside from that error in the date -- well,
13 firstly, do you know in fact you prepared this report?
14 A. I prepared the report with -- about a week -- you know, within the
15 days or week following my departure from Konjevic Polje.
16 Q. Okay. So apart from the date, can you otherwise confirm the
17 contents of this report as being accurate to the best of your knowledge
18 and belief?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Now, this document has two parts, firstly details of medical
21 facilities and conditions in Srebrenica, which is pages 1 to 4, and then
22 from pages 4 to 8, summary of visit to Konjevic Polje and Srebrenica 5th
23 March to 12th March, 1993, by Dr. Simon Mardel. I'm actually going to
24 start with the second section, this summary of your visit. This report
25 describes the situation as you found it in Srebrenica and Konjevic Polje
1 in that period?
2 A. Yes, that's correct.
3 Q. And I want to ask you about a number of the public health issues
4 which are set out in this document. First the mortality rates, and it's
5 at page 5. You see the heading "mortality." I'm just going to read that
7 "I was told that 20 to 30 people were dying each day from illness
8 related to malnutrition. I looked at two of the six cemeteries in
9 Srebrenica and found several fresh graves in each, supporting these
10 figures. Two young patients in hospital had severe pneumonia with no
11 underlying cause except malnutrition. The local doctors described seeing
12 cases of typhoid with confusion and chest infection as frequent
13 complications. Speaking to travellers from neighbouring villages, I
14 ascertained that within the last few weeks six people of different age
15 groups had died with dysentery in a village because Brezovica, whose
16 population was about 500. They did not know if these cases had fever.
17 There were reports of large numbers of lice infestation in the villages."
18 Do you see there, number of items, 20 to 30 people dying a day
19 from illness related to malnutrition, young people with severe pneumonia,
20 reported deaths from dysentery. Would it be fair to say that death was
21 all around in Srebrenica in this period of March 1993?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. There were a lot of things which could kill you?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And would that be much more so even than in peacetime?
1 A. Yes, just broadly, though, those figures would -- yeah.
2 Q. And in this situation would you make the same assumptions about
3 causes of death that you would see in the UK in peacetime?
4 A. There's more -- one would take into account more of the
5 contributing factors. For example, if these young patients -- and by
6 that, when I say young patients, they would not have been children, these
7 were young adults, otherwise I would have said children, and it's unusual
8 to get young adults with pneumonia without having something that makes
9 them more vulnerable to pneumonia or a very bad pathogen like TB. In this
10 case, I think all of the -- these pneumonias were due to the underlying
11 nutritional status.
12 Q. I want to ask you this: Obviously Srebrenica was a war zone.
13 Were the conditions that you observed in Srebrenica simply those that you
14 would expect in any war zone or were they better or worse? How did they
16 A. There were two aspects. Firstly -- were different. Firstly,
17 there's nowhere else they could go to. Where I worked in other war --
18 war-affected countries like Afghanistan and refugees from Ethiopia, you
19 know, when conditions became intolerable, they could move, they would
20 move. People in Srebrenica didn't have any choice, like to move to
21 another town. Many of them had already done that. They'd been internally
22 displaced people from one town to another, and Srebrenica seemed to be the
23 end of the line. There was no easy way out of Srebrenica that people
24 could walk, for example, with their families. So I found that highly
25 unusual to have a population that seemed to be facing a military onslaught
1 but with no refuge.
2 The second thing is the conditions were of a besieged enclave, and
3 this is -- that is not a common situation, to have a huge number of people
4 in a pocket facing extremes of weather and injury and illness with no --
5 you know, with no supplies at that stage of food or medical aid or even --
6 even hygiene, you know, difficulties of soap, washing. And I would also
7 say that those conditions clearly deteriorated further after I left when
8 the water supply to the city was cut off some weeks after I left. I
9 say "city," town.
10 Q. Is it right that illness related to malnutrition was a common
11 cause of death at that time?
12 A. People in these situations, we deal with reports which we have to
13 try and establish the truth. Obviously, the risk of exaggeration from the
14 local sources has to be taken into account. And I felt that, given that I
15 was seeing pneumonia and, you know, degree of -- the degree of
16 malnutrition I was seeing in some cases, I felt it did -- it did support
17 that claim if -- although I can't validate the extent of it, whether they
18 were all due to malnutrition, for example.
19 Q. Well, from what you saw, was it common or uncommon to see people
20 who looked emaciated in Srebrenica?
21 A. I often saw that, yeah.
22 Q. And how common was it to see people who looked exhausted?
23 A. That was -- that was also -- you know, I commonly came across
24 people like that.
25 Q. If you would see someone with sunken eyes, what, if anything, is
1 that symptomatic of?
2 A. It could be prolonged malnutrition because the fat tissue behind
3 the eyes is consumed by the body over prolonged starvation.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Sometimes --
5 THE WITNESS: And dehydration can also cause it.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead.
7 MR. JONES:
8 Q. And was it rare or common to see people around Srebrenica who had
9 sunken eyes?
10 A. I -- I think that my impression of nutritional status was, you
11 know -- I even measured arm circumferences or, you know, just -- you can't
12 help but seeing -- noticing someone's face overall as being thin and
13 pinched. People are wearing as much clothing as they have available, so
14 the sunken eyes may be one feature. I wouldn't say that it was -- it's
15 the thing I would look for.
16 Q. No. You've mentioned arm circumference. I would ask if you could
17 look at a couple more photographs, and I'd start with the one -- the
18 single one of a man on a bed.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Now, for the record, this photo which shows a man on
20 a bed is being tendered and marked as Defence Exhibit D781.
21 MR. JONES: Thank you.
22 Q. Now, if you look at the arms on that gentleman, how would you
23 describe those? Would you describe them as being symptomatic of anything?
24 A. Yes, he's lost a large amount of the normal muscle mass that's
25 best and most commonly measured in the upper -- in the mid-arm where the
1 biceps and triceps are. So he's quite obviously very thin, due to both
2 fat and muscle loss.
3 Q. And if we look at his right thigh, is there any comment you could
4 make about that appearance?
5 A. His right thigh has what we can see in the picture as a dressing
6 extending up to it. I think there's an impression of a bony prominence of
7 the pelvis which would also indicate that he's utilised all -- he's broken
8 down all his muscle, a great deal of his muscle mass.
9 Q. And do you recall where you saw that person and where you took
10 this photograph?
11 A. That would almost certainly have been in the hospital.
12 Q. Thank you. And then the next photograph is of three men in a
13 truck. And I'm not sure if -- well, perhaps you can help us with whether
14 in fact they're all living or not and with what that picture shows.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: So this photo which the witness is now being shown
16 of three gentlemen in a truck, Vlasenica 109, is being tendered and marked
17 as Defence Exhibit D782.
18 MR. JONES: Thank you, Your Honour.
19 THE WITNESS: This is a trailer being towed by a very simple
20 tractor device. I think they just have one wheel and large handle bars.
21 So they were sometimes used to transport our people. So it's not a truck
22 as such. They're quite specific to that region. I -- we saw a lot of
23 these one-wheeled tractor devices that were very -- that could go over
24 difficult ground. And in this case they've attached a trailer to it.
25 There's three patients on -- is there any -- anything specifically you
1 want me to comment on this?
2 MR. JONES:
3 Q. Just this: Was this sort of a scene common or uncommon in
4 Srebrenica in the time you were, people who appeared to be in this sort of
6 A. I didn't often see this form of transport.
7 Q. It's not the transport so much as the people.
8 A. Okay. Yes, yes.
9 Q. Yes, it was common?
10 JUDGE AGIUS: We could move more rapidly on this, Mr. Jones,
11 because I think these are things that are not really contested by the
12 Prosecution, I would imagine. And we have already indicated to you that
13 we have heard a lot of evidence on the circumstances of the people in
14 Srebrenica. But please feel free to ask any questions that you like.
15 MR. JONES: Yes. I just want to -- to explain that it's also --
16 goes to the issue of what inferences one would draw if one sees someone
17 who looks emaciated and unwell.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead.
19 MR. JONES: It's really on that issue. I trust Your Honours will
20 see the relevance, though.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Go on.
22 MR. JONES: Well, finally -- if we can have an exhibit number for
23 the woman on the sled, I take it that would be D783.
24 Q. Can you describe for us briefly what that picture shows and what
25 was going on there?
1 A. I recall this being a man, and he had -- I think he's been injured
2 and this was their only form of transporting him towards the town.
3 Q. All right. Thank you.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: So this photo which is now being shown to the
5 witness, showing a man and not a woman, being dragged or transported over
6 the snow is being marked as Defence Exhibit D783.
7 MR. JONES: Thank you, Your Honour.
8 Q. Now, we've seen in D232, the exhibit, and you've testified about
9 young patients in the hospital who had severe pneumonia with no visible
10 cause except for malnutrition. That's the quote from page 5, D232. I
11 want to ask you this: Is the risk of death and pneumonia exacerbated by
13 A. Definitely.
14 Q. And is it common for the person, the patient to slip in and out of
16 A. That would be a very late stage.
17 Q. But that's a symptom of pneumonia, slipping in and out of
19 A. It's not specific to pneumonia and if you're -- before dying of
20 pneumonia, you would lose consciousness usually.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: That's a grace from God, actually.
22 MR. JONES: Right, yes, I imagine --
23 JUDGE AGIUS: A grace from God.
24 MR. JONES:
25 Q. Now, tuberculosis and I'm going to go through something of a list
1 of public health concerns. Was tuberculosis also a public health concern
2 in Srebrenica?
3 A. It was of concern to my health organisation that -- always to be
4 on -- aware of the risk of TB. It's a hard diagnosis to make in this
5 condition and we were very concerned about its possible appearance and
6 potential for spread.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Whenever it's convenient to you, Mr. Jones.
8 MR. JONES: Yes, Your Honour, that's a convenient moment.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: And I'm told that because of redactions the break
10 has to be of 30 minutes.
11 MR. JONES: Okay.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. We'll have a 30-minute break starting from
13 now. Thank you.
14 --- Recess taken at 10:30 a.m.
15 [The witness stands down]
16 --- On resuming at 11:04 a.m.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Jones.
18 MR. JONES: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour. I did ask if we could
19 start without the witness.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, that's why I'm addressing you straight away.
21 MR. JONES: Because I feel in need of some guidance from the
22 Chamber in the following respect. Before the break Your Honour indicated
23 that I should -- I could move rapidly on these areas because --
24 JUDGE AGIUS: More or less.
25 MR. JONES: I have a -- there's a very precise reason why I'm
1 dwelling on this because there's been a lot of evidence on the
2 circumstances of the people in Srebrenica. Now, Your Honour, if it's not
3 contested that if -- if the accused or another person were to see someone
4 who was pale, emaciated, fever, with festering wounds, it's conceded that
5 that wouldn't provide notice of mistreatment, which is an issue obviously
6 in this case, and which is what I'm driving at, obviously, with some of
7 these questions. If that's conceded or if the Chamber considers that
8 that's a point I don't need to pursue.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: No, that point we definitely would not give you any
10 suggestions not to pursue. I mean --
11 MR. JONES: Well --
12 JUDGE AGIUS: -- that's definitely --
13 MR. JONES: That's why I'm curious as to why --
14 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no, no, wait. No, because if the reason of the
15 questions was to prove that in Srebrenica at the time there was famine,
16 there was disease, there was, as it has been described, hell on earth,
17 that you don't need to pursue because -- but feel free to if you want to.
18 But in the Trial Chamber's opinion we have already told you that we are
19 satisfied that there has been a lot of evidence already -- plus photos,
20 plus films, videos --
21 MR. JONES: Yes --
22 JUDGE AGIUS: -- showing what condition the people were living in.
23 MR. JONES: That's simply why I'm puzzled because I wanted -- also
24 it follows from the fact that if it were hell on earth, the argument which
25 I've suggested might be conceded.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: But that you will realise we cannot concede anything
2 on. That's a conclusion which you need to draw.
3 MR. JONES: Right.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: And then -- there you are free to ask any questions
5 and elicit that conclusion from the witness if you want to.
6 MR. JONES: Yes.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, it's --
8 MR. JONES: Your Honour, I think it's important that I raise it so
9 that you realise that the questions I was requesting this morning were in
11 JUDGE AGIUS: No, at no time we wanted to curtail on -- it's a
12 question of -- now, if you were in agreement that for the purpose of what
13 you are trying to seek you didn't need to go into further detail, you were
14 free to go.
15 MR. JONES: Yes. There's another issue as well which is, the
16 evidence I'm eliciting is relevant to causes of death of persons in
17 Srebrenica and of course when it comes to victims mentioned in the
18 indictment I certainly made submissions in the past that one couldn't
19 assume that anyone who died had been murdered, and obviously I'm eliciting
20 evidence from this witness which points to that issue. So I trust those
21 points are taken.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead. Yes.
23 MR. JONES: Thank you, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Eventually those will become submissions,
25 obviously --
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 MR. JONES: I trust why the Trial Chamber understands why I'm
2 asking those questions. I would be troubled if your Trial Chamber hadn't
3 appreciated that that's --
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes --
5 MR. JONES: -- why I'm asking.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: That makes it clear. At least we can read your mind
8 Mr. Di Fazio.
9 MR. DI FAZIO: I have nothing to add to this discussion. Just on
10 another issue, I spoke to Mr. Jones just before -- just after the break
11 and he informed me he's got about an hour, an hour and a half I think it
12 was, Mr. Jones' estimate.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Another hour and a half more.
14 MR. DI FAZIO: If so, that would take us to 12.30, maximum, and
15 that's the break. That's going to leave me 45 minutes. Now, I may be
16 able to finish and so on -- I may be able to finish at that time but --
17 and you know that Dr. Mardel, I think, has a commitment or is anxious to
18 complete his evidence today. Now, I don't want to -- I mean, I'll do my
19 level best to finish, but I just alert the -- alert everyone to that
20 danger and --
21 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. If we don't finish, he will -- we'll
22 have to find a solution to that. I mean --
23 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, I'll be as accommodating as I can and, as I
24 said, I'll do my best. But I just raise -- flag that danger.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: I think, Mr. Jones and Mr. Di Fazio, I think you
1 need to cooperate amongst you, try to --
2 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't know.
4 MR. JONES: Just two observations, Your Honour. Obviously, we
5 lost a lot of time --
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, but what can you do about that?
7 MR. JONES: That's just to explain why if there's any appearance
8 of me overrunning, it's partly due to that. But also my learned friend
9 indicated that I could lead on a lot of these issues, and so I probably
10 will be taking that suggestion.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: And I think I also gave you that suggestion earlier
12 on in the day.
13 MR. JONES: Yes, indeed.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Because this is not someone who is really tied to --
15 to --
16 MR. JONES: Yes.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: -- to the events related to the accused as such.
18 MR. JONES: Yes. I'll lead on the public health issues.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
20 MR. JONES: And then I won't lead on some other matters.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I can imagine what you're talking about.
22 MR. JONES: Thank you.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: And, in fact, if you can present these health issues
24 to him as proposed facts to which you would either -- you would need to
25 answer yes or no only, I think we can get ahead much faster.
1 MR. JONES: Yes, Your Honour. And I'll explain that to the
3 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.
4 I'll explain to him as well, actually. I will put him on notice
5 that if he doesn't speed up with his answers, he may end up having to
6 return on Monday. And that I think will --
7 MR. JONES: Provided he's not under the impression that he's to
8 blame. I think he's given quite concise answers today.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, but I will try to cut him down even further,
10 you know? I don't know. He disappeared. I hope he didn't go on another
12 [The witness entered court]
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Dr. Mardel, we are going to proceed and we will
14 try to accelerate the rate of the examination-in-chief and the
15 cross-examination. We need your cooperation, however, and your
16 cooperation would consist in trying to give more concise and to-the-point
17 answers. I'm not criticising you, you know, please don't -- but the two
18 lawyers will be doing their part and you will also need to do your part.
19 All right?
20 THE WITNESS: I understand.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Otherwise you would have to stay here over the
22 weekend or return on Monday.
23 THE WITNESS: I understand.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Thanks. Which we are trying to avoid.
25 MR. JONES: Yes.
1 Q. Thank you, Dr. Mardel. In that spirit, I'm going to put
2 questions, leading questions, put to which you can give a yes or no
3 answer, but if you feel the need to elaborate, then please do so, just
4 dealing with the public health issues. Earlier in your testimony you
5 described the population of Srebrenica being exposed to extremes of
6 weather. Is extreme cold also a health risk?
7 A. Yes, it is.
8 Q. Was it extremely cold when you were in Srebrenica?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Did ice in fact even pose a hazard?
11 A. Yes, slipping, yeah.
12 Q. Does an unclean water supply create additional health risks?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. I still have to go slowly probably for the interpreters.
15 Diarrhoea, was that also a menace to public health in Srebrenica in 1993?
16 A. It was extremely common and I saw firsthand evidence of just how
17 common it was in groups of people.
18 Q. And can diarrhoea be fatal if someone is already compromised by
19 another illness?
20 A. It could be, especially in the young or elderly.
21 Q. And does the stress of living under siege and with shelling have
22 an impact on public health, in particular in terms of a breakdown of
23 hygiene and other habits?
24 A. Yes. People can't secure clean sources of water or make proper
25 use of latrine areas.
1 Q. If people are chronically weak and lethargic, is that a symptom of
2 chronic malnutrition?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. I would ask you to look at a new exhibit. It's an article from
5 the Daily Express, 15th of March, 1993. And you may recall even without
6 seeing it -- did you bring that article with you to The Hague as part of
7 your collection of documents?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Now, this article from the Daily Express deals with your visit to
10 Srebrenica and Konjevic Polje. There's actually one specific part I want
11 to deal with right now, which is where you see the heading "scouring."
12 And it's the second paragraph.
13 "I saw a 30-year-old man collapse dead as he was looking for US
14 aid parachutes," he said. This is referring to you. "Then you were
15 reduced to eating a crude bread made of corn cob cores mixed with tree
16 buds. The primitive nutrition had killed some people."
17 Now, is it in fact highly uncommon for a young man to drop dead
18 for no apparent cause?
19 A. Yes. I remember being concerned and seeing the body. I was in
20 the hospital when he was brought in.
21 Q. And what could be a cause of that?
22 A. I don't -- there's a number of possible causes. They're all very
23 speculative. Could have been --
24 JUDGE AGIUS: But if they are speculative, are we interested in
25 them, Mr. Jones?
1 MR. JONES: No, I can put it this way.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: I have had to deal with in my career young men
3 playing football and dropping dead and the result of the autopsy is --
4 still lead you no --
5 MR. JONES: Let me just ask this --
6 JUDGE AGIUS: And Dr. Mardel knows exactly what I'm talking
8 MR. JONES:
9 Q. Would either scurvy and/or malnutrition contribute to that sort of
10 a risk, sudden death?
11 A. It's possible, and that did occur to me at the time.
12 MR. JONES: I would ask for an exhibit number for this.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: This would become D784.
14 MR. JONES: Thank you.
15 Q. Sorry, still on that article, we don't need it in front of you,
16 it's reported there that eating these crude this crude, improvised bread
17 had killed some people. Is it right that that's at least what you were
18 told, that this improvised bread had actually led to indigestion which had
19 been fatal?
20 A. I was told it was causing them problems, but it's not something
21 we're used to seeing, people eating pulp -- ground-down wood fibre or
22 paper fibre, cellulose, pure cellulose. This is not a normal nutrition
23 source. They were making their food resemble a substantial mix to make a
24 kind of bread, grossly diluting what nutritional source they had with
25 this. And this is not a safe -- I don't think this is a safe -- not a
1 proper food source.
2 Q. And is it right that eating berries from the woods, if you don't
3 know which ones to eat, can cause hallucinations and other mental health
5 A. Yes, that is possible -- that's quite possible.
6 Q. Now, are you familiar with the term multifactorial applied to
7 cause of death or loss of life?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. That describes, does it not, the fact that someone's death might
10 be caused by a whole variety of causes?
11 A. Contributory factors, yes.
12 Q. If you heard that someone had died in Srebrenica in March 1993,
13 could that indeed be from a large number of contributory causes?
14 A. Yes. There may be a primary cause of death caused by -- led up to
15 by something else, led up to by something else, and then on top of that
16 contributing factors. That's how we tend -- that's how we use death
17 certificates, for example, that's how we complete them.
18 Q. And if someone had an untreated war wound, could that be a
19 contributory factor in causing death?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. There's a reference in D232 I believe, to osteomyelitis?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Can you explain to us what that is?
24 A. It's an infection in the bone and in this environment it was
25 usually a complication from war wounds, shrapnel or bullet wounds. And
1 infection in the bone is very difficult to eradicate and leads to chronic
2 infection which places a great burden on the individual's immune system
3 and nutritional status. And so they run down -- they get rundown by it in
4 every sense and it poses a risk to life in the long term.
5 Q. And in the hospital, it's noted in D232, you saw 20 cases. What
6 sort of a number is that to find, a small, medium, large number?
7 A. It's a very large number.
8 Q. And what does that indicate to you?
9 A. It indicates severe wounds combined with inadequate surgery or
10 inadequate conditions for surgery and contributed to by also a lack of
11 antibiotics, disinfectant, hospital hygiene, operating hygiene, the
12 physical requirements for that.
13 Q. And I think it's true to say, isn't it, that there wasn't any
14 penicillin in the hospital when you were there?
15 A. That's correct.
16 Q. Now, just on the issue of malnutrition --
17 MR. JONES: And I will continue to lead on these issues just to
18 make progress.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Of course.
20 MR. JONES:
21 Q. In D232 there's a reference to the fact that some people in
22 villages slaughtered -- had slaughtered animals because of diminished food
23 stocks. Now, isn't it right that, in fact, if there's meat on the market,
24 that's not a good sign; in fact, it's an early warning sign of a famine?
25 A. In nutritional surveys it's a standard warning sign when there is
1 a glut or a large amount of meat appears and the price of meat is cheap,
2 as people slaughter their animals because they have no food. So they
3 sacrifice, for example, a constant yield of milk from a cow; they have to
4 abandon that, and slaughter the animal.
5 Q. I'm going to ask you about scabies and lice. Scabies and
6 lice infestation was rife in Srebrenica, was it not, when you were
8 A. Yes, it was.
9 Q. And scabies is a parasite, is it not, which leaves the person
10 suffering from it to scratch and can lead to skin defects, even bleeding.
11 Is that correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And indeed, can it lead to secondary infections such as rheumatic
14 heart disease?
15 A. It leads to -- it very commonly leads to skin infection and
16 persistent infections of one kind of infection can cause the rheumatic
17 heart disease. It wouldn't be the commonest complication, but it's
19 Q. And can that be fatal?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. There's also a reference - and I'm still with D232, but in the
22 interests of making progress I won't refer to chapter and verse - to large
23 skin defects and to carbuncles. Now, is it common to come across those
24 defects in a developed country?
25 A. In a previously healthy individual, they're not common. We tend
1 to look for an underlying -- we often associate with an underlying immune
2 problem or diabetes.
3 Q. Whereas in Srebrenica was that fairly common?
4 A. Yes, it was.
5 Q. And could that lead to some facial deformity on the face of the
7 A. Carbuncles were among the conditions specifically mentioned to me
8 in a list of conditions by the local doctors in their clinics. They occur
9 on facial -- on hair -- on hair-bearing areas of skin, not typically the
11 Q. But it could be on the face if there's hair. Would that be
13 A. It could be on the face or scalp.
14 Q. Now, there's also a reference, and it's page 2, third paragraph
15 2, "chronically discharging, smelly, infected wounds." That's something
16 you came across?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And what sort of appearance does that -- does that take?
19 A. The people normally try and put a bandage or dressing to soak up
20 the discharging material and -- or try and protect the wound. The
21 dressings were always very dirty and soiled and insufficient.
22 Q. Weren't they in fact reusing bandages in the hospital?
23 A. They were -- they were boiling them, drying them, and reusing
24 them, but the discolouration produced by the -- by some bacteria, it
25 turned them green.
1 Q. Now, is it not also true that anaemia was common and the that sort
2 of readings which you were told about were extremely low readings were
3 grammes of haemoglobin for 100 millilitres of blood?
4 A. Yes, that's very low.
5 Q. And anaemia causes people to look pale and drawn and tired?
6 A. Pallor is the distinctive feature, pale.
7 Q. And finally a few other matters, and this is on the same
8 document: "Some people admitted to symptoms of night blindness, and many
9 patients had mouth ulcers."
10 Just dealing with mouth ulcers, can that lead to a discharge of
11 blood from the mouth in a serious case?
12 A. They can get cracks at the side of the mouth because the rate of
13 new skin formation when there is nutritional deficiency is impeded. So
14 areas of the body that are prone to constant stress do sometimes break
15 down and you can get cracks and fissures and inflammation. So it's a sign
16 of -- it can be a sign of nutritional deficiency.
17 Q. So would it be fair to say in Srebrenica in March 1993, and
18 certainly -- let's just deal with the hospital. And the hospital at any
19 rate, there were many people who looked extremely unwell and had all sorts
20 of wounds and injuries and infections visible on their body?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And then outside the hospital within Srebrenica generally, is it
23 also true that there were many people who again were of a very miserable
25 A. Miserable and weak. And I should add that anaemia causes patients
1 to be weak and complain of weakness. It's not something you kind of see,
2 but, yes, it is one of the features.
3 Q. Now, going back to Dr. Mujkanovic briefly, on D232 -- and perhaps
4 it would be useful if the witness could see it. It's the first page.
5 Just if you can help us with one matter. It says there in the second full
6 paragraph. "There is one surgeon Dr. Nedret Mujkanovic, he has general
7 surgery experience, but no previous orthopaedic experience. He has been
8 doing all the surgical work in the hospital and appears to have" - it
9 says "burn out," but - "burnt out and now spends much of his time
10 attending other matters in the town."
11 Now, firstly, is that correct? Do you recall reporting that
12 Mujkanovic had done all of the surgical work but he appeared to have burnt
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Now, as a doctor who's worked in war zones, is that something you
16 have an understanding of or an explanation for?
17 A. I can -- it's completely anticipated for someone of that
18 relatively junior experience to be responsible solely for all of that --
19 all those -- all that surgery, all of that wounded and in those
21 Q. Without anaesthetics and ... I want to draw your attention to the
22 remark which appears there. "Before being critical we should ask
23 ourselves how we would cope with those conditions."
24 Do you endorse that remark?
25 A. Absolutely.
1 Q. Now, in addition to the situation which you've described in terms
2 of public health, did you get a sense how the local population saw the
3 prospects for the future, for their future?
4 A. They were -- they were -- I was constantly aware and being told,
5 and it was obvious, they were very frightened over their future. As --
6 as -- where could they possibly -- how could they escape from this.
7 Q. Did you get a sense how, if at all, any defence of the town or the
8 enclave of Srebrenica was organised, or who was involved in the defence?
9 How would you characterise that?
10 A. It was not my job to look at those matters, but I formed a general
11 impression that it would just be a matter of time before, you know, the
12 enclave would -- would be overrun.
13 Q. What in fact I was getting at is: Was there, as far as you are
14 aware, either a professional army on the ground or fighters or men with
15 weapons? What -- how would you categorise what you understood to be the
16 defence of the enclave, if there was one?
17 A. The impression that -- that is most distinctive in my mind was --
18 was it was the exception, like the three young men that escorted me into
19 Srebrenica, they were the exception. They were fit and they were armed
20 and they had a uniform. And I -- I obviously took a personal interest in
21 my safety, so I was gauging people who were with me and -- when I was
22 travelling. I would have been gauging their capability to be aware and do
23 the right thing and make sure I was safe. And that was the only -- you
24 know, that stood out in my memory as the only -- you know, as distinctive.
25 It was unusual to see that. I didn't see the usual -- usual impression
1 was of people doing -- forced to do what they could do to defend
2 themselves because what other option do they have.
3 Q. And as for those three men in uniform, firstly, I mean, were they
4 all in precisely the same uniform or were they in different uniforms and
5 what sort of a uniform was it?
6 A. I'm -- I met them later and was able to take a photograph of them,
7 so my memory is refreshed by that. But it was trousers and smock or top,
8 and I would have been aware that they must have had reasonable -- good
9 footwear to do that journey safely.
10 Q. And in the five days you were in Srebrenica, you saw those three
11 men with that equipment and no one else?
12 A. They stood out in my memory. I do remember being appalled to see
13 people with poor footwear in those conditions who were, you know - for
14 want of a better word - defending the enclave and carrying some, you know,
15 carrying some weapons. But I had problems, you know, I have problems sort
16 of referring to these people as fighters and just defending, you know, the
17 enclave. That was the impression I had.
18 Q. Right.
19 A. Not an army.
20 Q. Now, there are a couple of final public health matters which I, in
21 fact, still need to deal with. First of all, did you also observe in the
22 hospital decubitus ulcers, in other words bed sores, which -- being
23 indicative of a very poor condition?
24 A. Decubitus ulcers, yes, bed sores.
25 Q. There's also a reference to gas gangrene. Can you explain
1 just a little bit about whether you observed that and what that
3 A. I didn't observe gas gangrene myself, but they reported seeing and
4 experiencing a lot of cases and I have no doubt that they were correct.
5 And it's seeing the inevitable consequences of that; all patients will die
6 in those conditions if they've got gas gangrene. There could be no
7 survival from that unless surgery is effective in removing all dead
8 tissue, and that is why a nurse with no operating experience ends up doing
9 amputations and so on after months of seeing those things and with no
10 effective anaesthetic.
11 Q. Right. And are the guidelines in fact for within what time period
12 surgery needs to be carried out on someone with a war wound to prevent
13 gangrene setting in?
14 A. As a rule of thumb, we want -- we want to get a wound cleaned, you
15 know, within six hours. If not, then they're in a higher risk and we have
16 to take additional measures.
17 Q. Right. So as a matter of public health, if someone has stepped on
18 a landmine or been shot or had a serious shrapnel injury, you need to get
19 them to a hospital in a very short space of time?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Finally, enterocolitis, was that also observed and is that also a
22 thing which can result in death?
23 A. Yes, it is. It -- it's diarrhoea with blood in it. It doesn't
24 usually cause death, but it could be a contributing factor. But in the
25 young and elderly it could cause death.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Q. And I'll just read into the record D232, page 2, the bottom, and
2 this is your report: "In discussions I had with the doctors they
3 described seeing the following cases most commonly: Malnutrition,
4 scabies, anaemia, pneumonia, hepatitis A, and enterocolitis. They
5 described cases of vitamin deficiency with symptoms and signs, including
6 angular stomatitis, swollen gums, xerophthalmia and rickets."
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. You found that. Now, you gave evidence about your visits to -- if
9 not villages, certainly an area south of Srebrenica. And you say, and
10 this is again in your report: "Apart from one industrial region close to
11 Srebrenica I was not able to visit any of the outlying villages because of
12 difficulty in access caused by the deep snow."
13 Now, you told us at the time you were fit. Was this a problem
14 that you faced or were outlying villages simply not accessible because of
15 snow at that time?
16 A. Movement to those regions was difficult. The only region -- I
17 wanted to visit areas outside of town to make as complete an assessment as
18 possible. They're more vulnerable, potentially more vulnerable, or they
19 may be surviving perhaps better. I wanted to make an assessment, but I
20 was -- snow was deep and, you know, it was difficult to do that. So I --
21 I took one -- this one place I was able to get to along the road.
22 Q. And your report also refers to travel to Zepa. Can you just tell
23 us -- I believe you had a conversation with a young man about travelling
24 to Zepa and what his situation was.
25 A. I interviewed people about their food sources. I spent time with
1 families talking in detail as to how they got food. One large family, the
2 father of the family would walk through a perilous route in deep snow.
3 And he showed me snowshoes that he had manufactured himself so that he
4 could walk across the deep snow. And I took a particular interest in the
5 route because I -- I had a -- in case I -- if I had to leave and I could
6 perhaps take that as an optional route. So I -- he described to me in
7 detail the route and it would have been difficult and at night, but -- and
8 not many people could do that journey, of the population.
9 Q. All right. Thank you.
10 MR. JONES: Excuse me if a moment, Your Honours. My screen has
11 locked, so I need to unlock it so I can see the transcript.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you need any technical assistance?
13 MR. JONES: No.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: All right? Okay?
15 MR. JONES: The wonders of technology.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no, but if you do need any technical
17 assistance, then please let me know because otherwise we will have
18 to wait for it.
19 MR. JONES: Thanks.
20 Q. All right. So it wouldn't be true to say that Srebrenica and Zepa
21 were part of an easily contiguous territory with movements between the
22 two -- with unhindered movement between the two?
23 A. Absolutely not, and this was a -- you know, I felt that was an
24 exceptional route and not one -- he had relatives in Zepa, which itself
25 had nutritional problems, but they would give him a sack of food when he
1 made that journey, something like a monthly -- every two weeks or
2 something like that.
3 Q. And I believe his sister had been killed looking for food.
5 A. He described one night they were stealing food from farms and his
6 sister was shot at, by him --
7 Q. Not by him --
8 A. Sorry, by his side, shot dead.
9 Q. Finally a question on lice infestation. Is it correct that typhus
10 can be carried by lice and is also potentially life-threatening?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Now, as an expert in public health and nutrition, can you comment
13 on the effect of malnutrition and even starvation on people's ability to
14 make rational decisions.
15 A. It would compromise -- it's likely to compromise fine
16 design-making and learning. Overall, people may still carry out and
17 perform essential tasks, but, you know, judgements may be impaired.
18 Q. You were present in Tuzla, were you not, when a convoy arrived
19 with people from Srebrenica? If you can respond to that and then I'll put
20 another question?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Was that experience or anything which you gathered from that
23 experience, or what had occurred, did that cause you to reflect on this
24 matter of people taking rational decisions in a crisis?
25 A. Yes. I -- I met the convoy of -- the first convoy of people
1 transported out of Srebrenica. And they were crushed into open trucks,
2 standing in the back of trucks. I remember a child's arm, you know, in
3 the air with rigour mortis, a dead child sticking out of the back. And
4 when the trucks were unloaded there were a number of -- there were a
5 number of asphyxiated children. They have very ...
6 Q. Yes, we won't dwell on that subject, and if you need a moment --
7 it was really to ask you this: Did that experience lead you to any
8 conclusions about crowd behaviour in Srebrenica?
9 A. They must have been absolutely desperate to get out. And I
10 understood that -- I looked into it as carefully as I could. I understood
11 that more people tried to climb in to the lorries. And even at the final
12 checkpoint or further down the road, families even threw their -- you
13 know, threw their children on to the lorries.
14 Q. Okay. Thank you. We're going to come back to that with an
15 exhibit, but we're going to move on to a different area now.
16 While you were in Srebrenica, were you able to communicate with
17 the outside world?
18 A. Yes, through the -- through an amateur radio link to another
19 amateur radio in Tuzla.
20 Q. Do you recall who was manning the radio?
21 A. Two young twins from Bratunac.
22 Q. Do you still have the photographs next to you? Can you see
23 whether there's a picture of those twins there?
24 A. Yes, there is. I recall it, yes. Yeah.
25 MR. JONES: And perhaps we should premark the exhibit.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. We need to do that straight away. So this
2 photo which shows two gentlemen, one of whom is -- seems to be operating
3 the Morse code transmitting device is being marked as Defence Exhibit
5 MR. JONES: Thank you, Your Honour.
6 Q. Dr. Mardel, can you just describe for us a little bit firstly who
7 these youngsters were, if I can describe them as that, and how the
8 communication worked, just briefly.
9 A. Before the war they were amateur radio enthusiasts and they
10 continually manned this radio room, and it was the only link with the
11 outside world until the UN later arrived and set up more sophisticated
13 Q. Now, was this room guarded?
14 A. I went to the room every -- every day to report and keep in touch.
15 It was my only way of keeping in touch and the UNHCR had someone stationed
16 in Tuzla at the other end, so to speak, at the other radio. So I had an
17 effective way of communicating --
18 Q. Perhaps I'll put it this way. I mean, we -- first of all, I take
19 it you accept they're in civilian clothes, these two?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Was there any military presence around this radio? Was there a
22 uniformed guard with a rifle or anything of that nature?
23 A. I don't recall that. It's possible. It's -- it was all a bit --
24 it wasn't highly organised. It's possible, but it was -- I just came and
25 went and --
1 Q. Thank you.
2 A. It wasn't -- I don't recall that.
3 Q. Did you have to seek any permission to use this radio?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Was the equipment sophisticated?
6 A. It's -- it's just an amateur radio short-wave radio set. I would
7 not -- you know, if -- most people would not now call that -- would not
8 have called that then sophisticated, no.
9 Q. Do you recall how it was powered?
10 A. Yes. It was powered by car or vehicle batteries, and I asked how
11 they were able to charge them.
12 Q. And their answer?
13 A. They used fuel that they drained from electricity substations --
14 there's a mineral oil or something that is used to cool the transformers,
15 and they drained quantities of this oil to fuel engines.
16 Q. Now, do you recall whether this was a secure line or where the
17 Serbs were able to intercept?
18 A. They constantly found the frequency -- they constantly interrupted
19 us and would jam or shout abuse or both. And then it took time,
20 therefore, every 30 seconds or minute to then -- the twins would find
21 another frequency that was prearranged and then would continue the
22 conversation until that was jammed. So I spent a lot of time just to
23 transmit quite short messages.
24 Q. All right. Thank you. Now, skipping ahead slightly. You used
25 the radio in Konjevic Polje as well, didn't you, upon your return?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Do you remember who manned that radio?
3 A. I -- I distinctly remember it was a wounded young man who, you
4 know, perhaps because of his wound could not do much else.
5 Q. Would you describe him as a fighter?
6 A. I think he might have had some sort of army-style trousers or
7 something of -- on. Perhaps he had been able to -- he was a wounded
8 man, you know. He had a -- he had a problem that -- to me it was obvious
9 that, in fact, he couldn't do much else. But he was able to man the
11 Q. Right. Now, just on this issue which we touched on earlier about,
12 your evidence was that you would have difficulty even describing the men
13 of Srebrenica as fighters even. You said it wasn't an army. I want to
14 ask you simply a few questions just about Naser Oric. And as a
15 preliminary, you told us yesterday your mission was to assess the wounded
16 and you didn't pay much attention to name. Is that correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Did you attend meetings of those involved in the defence of
20 A. No. I can remember being taken just once to a -- to a hotel there
21 for a short meeting with some -- you know, with some people. I don't -- I
22 didn't even make any notes or -- you know, there was no -- there was
23 nothing of importance to me to emerge from it I think other than nothing
24 to interfere with my duties.
25 Q. Right. So it correct to say that you didn't -- well, I'll put it
1 this way: Before going to Srebrenica, did you receive intelligence,
2 briefings about the personalities in Srebrenica and who was doing what?
3 A. No, and I would not have been aware or taken an interest in that.
4 Q. Now, you told us how on your way to Konjevic Polje from Sarajevo
5 you don't recall hearing anything about Naser Oric. I want to ask you
6 now: When you were in Srebrenica itself, do you recall ever seeing Naser
7 Oric, firstly?
8 A. I don't recall seeing him in Srebrenica, no.
9 Q. And during that time when you were in Srebrenica, did you ever
10 hear anything about Naser Oric that you recall?
11 A. Nothing that I recall, no.
12 Q. Now, when you went back to Konjevic Polje, do you recall -- sorry,
13 I'll withdraw that question. I want to take it in sequence.
14 In the whole time you were in Srebrenica and Konjevic Polje, do
15 you recollect anyone telling you anything about Naser Oric and any role he
16 might have in the enclave when you were there in March?
17 A. No.
18 Q. And it may seem -- it may seem a foolish question, but do you know
19 anything of what Naser Oric was up to in December of 1994?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Where were you in December 1994?
22 A. Back in the UK.
23 Q. You weren't -- or were you monitoring the situation in
25 A. No, I --
1 Q. Thank you. There is a reason why I asked those questions, but
2 thank you.
3 Now, dealing with your return to Konjevic Polje. Firstly, can you
4 describe for us how you returned there?
5 A. I received a message through the radio link transmitted by UNHCR
6 that the wounded from Konjevic Polje were going to be evacuated that day,
7 and this is early in the morning, and that I should make my way there by a
8 specific time, by 1.00 or 2.00 in the afternoon. And I asked if some
9 people could, you know, be provided to escort me there. And I waited, but
10 none came. So myself and the interpreter that I had found and taken and
11 employed, we set off and retraced that -- broadly that route. We were --
12 there was some shelling on the road, so we stopped and sheltered in some
13 remains of buildings and while -- wondering what to do and then the --
14 some men -- again, I would not call these soldiers. Some men joined us.
15 I think they did have some rifles or some -- between them, but they were
16 very slow, physically, not wanting to be slow. They physically couldn't
17 keep up later with me, and I left them behind. They followed later --
18 they arrived much later.
19 Q. Right. And I'm going to refer now that D777, "Merry Christmas,
20 Mr. Larry." And I think on page 182 that recounts your return to
21 Konjevici. Do you recall where you encountered shelling, do you recall
22 the place?
23 A. Outside Srebrenica before Potocari and there was -- we were fired
24 at by machine-gun which I think was from a hill called Caus, C-a-u-s.
25 Q. All right. Thank you.
1 MR. JONES: I wonder if I might lead a little on just his return
2 to Konjevic Polje if it's not in dispute. It's simply to make progress
3 about what this witness saw on his return.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead. Yes, go ahead, Mr. Jones. And the
5 understanding is as usual: If Mr. Di Fazio stands up and objects, then we
6 take the objection and we decide. Otherwise, unless I hear any objections
7 from the Prosecution, please continue leading.
8 MR. JONES: Yes. Thank you.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
10 MR. JONES:
11 Q. In fact, I think I can do it by simply reading a passage from this
12 book. It's page 182, and it's referring to you stepping out at our own
13 pace after you've left these others behind.
14 "He knew he was on the right track when he hit a wall of refugees,
15 fleeing Konjevici. They helped his map reading but hindered his pace. He
16 forced his way through family group after family group, all struggling in
17 the deep snow, carrying babies, holding on to toddlers, dragging bundles."
18 So pausing there, isn't it right that you had hit a stream of
19 refugees, families, toddlers leaving Konjevic Polje?
20 A. It's correct. They didn't physically hold me up, but it was quite
21 obvious it was easy to find the way to go from them. And many of them
22 were crying.
23 Q. It was a pretty miserable sight?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And now it goes on there in the book to describe how with the last
1 15 minutes for -- to meet a deadline you managed to purchase a bicycle and
2 cycled into Konjevici. Then it says: "Near the centre of Konjevici he
3 almost collided with Naser Oric.
4 'Have you seen UNPROFOR?' he asked him.
5 "Oric knew everything that went on, but he pretended not to
6 understand. 'UNPROFOR?'
7 'Yes. Have they left?
8 'They left the day after you arrived.' Simon did not have time
9 to waste amusing Oric. He pedaled on to the municipal buildings."
10 Stopping there, do you think that's a fair comment about your
11 encounter with Naser Oric upon your return?
12 A. I think the author has used a lot of poetic license because I
13 don't agree with those sentiments. I don't recall them, and I don't know
14 how else he could have thought that -- how else he could have reported
15 them. But I did -- but I did -- I do believe I met him, I'm sure it was
16 him, pretty sure, it was him that I met. I can't say for absolute sure,
17 but I think it was.
18 Q. Okay. And while we're on the subject I want to deal just with a
19 couple of other references to Oric in this book. Do you have it in front
20 of you? All right. It's page 175.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Are you still -- yes, we are still in chapter 9?
22 MR. JONES: Yes. D777.
23 Q. And it's the last paragraph on page 175. And this is -- I'm
24 taking this out of chronological sequence, but I'm dealing with these
25 references to Oric in the book.
1 "There were two main locations of the sick and a number of houses
2 where one or two were billeted. Naser Oric had told the General that
3 there were seven hundred who needed evacuating. We did not see many more
4 than a couple hundred in total. Maths was not Oric's strong suit. We
5 reckoned that seventy needed urgent treatment."
6 Can you comment on that, whether that's a fair comment?
7 A. I disagree with this. There were -- there were a larger number of
8 locations then is implied here. I received -- I can't remember how, but I
9 had received some indication of the work that the team had done while I
10 was in Srebrenica, that they had assessed 76 patients. Over the following
11 day I counted a lot more than that, but they would have been fresh -- more
12 freshly wounded. And a very important point is that people here were
13 counting houses where people were receiving treatment. As soon as they
14 were able to get out of what was a makeshift ward, hospital ward in a room
15 or in a house or in a restaurant, they were -- you know, they would have
16 gone -- their families would have then looked after them. And those
17 larger number of people also fulfil criteria for medical evacuation in
18 these conditions.
19 Q. Okay. Thank you. That's helpful.
20 And then -- and finally, and obviously we won't -- I'm not seeking
21 to be overly critical of Larry Hollingworth, but just to clarify some of
22 these references. You told us how you weren't in fact particularly
23 interested in following the -- any sort of military situation. If we turn
24 to page 173, it's at the top, and this is describing the entry into
25 Konjevic Polje and it refers to the men at the barricade at this tree.
1 It says: "They were tired, tetchy, and nervous. 'You cannot do
2 anything until we have spoken to the commander,' they said. This made
3 sense. Their commander is Naser Oric, a tough leader who rules with a rod
4 of iron."
5 Now, firstly do you recall any conversation along the lines of:
6 Take me to see Commander Oric, as it appears in the next sentence, or any
7 reference to Oric at that stage?
8 A. No. But then it would not have been my job to get involved with a
9 discussion. I would have stayed in or next to the vehicle.
10 Q. Yes. Thank you. So it's simply this: Where it's stated that
11 Oric is a tough leader who rules with a rod of iron, that's not something
12 over which you can comment on one way or the other?
13 A. No.
14 Q. And I think finally there's a reference to Oric sending a car to
15 meet you. Is that -- is that something which is accurately reported here
16 to your knowledge? I'll find the reference in a moment.
17 MR. DI FAZIO: Halfway down page 173, Your Honours.
18 MR. JONES: Yes, that's it.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Di Fazio.
20 MR. JONES: "Naser Oric sent a vehicle to pick up the General.
21 The rest of us struggled for hours forcing a gap wide enough to let our
22 vehicles to pass."
23 Q. Is that something which you recollect?
24 A. I think that General Morillon might have got through and ahead
25 and -- and, you know, started meeting while the rest of us stayed with the
1 vehicles until -- until the vehicles could go -- could pass. I can't
2 comment any further than that.
3 Q. Thank you. Do you recall offhand - and without referring to your
4 notes of course on this very subject - but if there's anything else you
5 felt you needed to correct in this chapter?
6 A. To quite a lot of minor things, I don't think of any consequence.
7 Q. That's fine, if they're not of any consequence. Right.
8 Now, I want to deal with a couple of further matters.
9 MR. JONES: I am conscious of the time and what I might propose at
10 some stage is to tender a number of exhibits without dwelling excessively
11 on them, but I have prepared a number of exhibits for this witness which
12 we want on the record.
13 Q. Firstly, earlier you gave evidence about this road convoy which
14 arrived in Tuzla. And I would just ask --
15 MR. JONES: In fact, it's already an exhibit it's D680.
16 Q. But I need you to have a look at that to confirm whether or not
17 you're the author. D680, please. Do you recall this report and are you
18 the author?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. I think that's -- I think that's all which is necessary for this
21 exhibit. I simply wanted to confirm that. And then there's another
22 exhibit, a new exhibit, which is a monthly report of WHO Sarajevo office,
23 14th March to 15th April.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Again, out of an abundance of caution, since this is
25 a WHO report, I would rather have it -- your tendering to be recorded, at
1 least temporarily, under seal.
2 MR. JONES: Yes, that's fine, Your Honour. I might just ask one
3 question of this witness.
4 Q. Is it right that actually it is a project of WHO to put its
5 documents in the public domain?
6 A. I was contacted many years ago about assisting -- I was told of
7 the -- yes, a project to assemble all documents for -- for a permanent
8 record of what happened.
9 MR. JONES: We will keep it under seal, but just to mention
11 JUDGE AGIUS: At the end of the day it does mention persons, if
12 you look at page 2, for example.
13 MR. JONES: Yes.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: And I think the safest way is to have it under seal.
15 MR. JONES: Yes, absolutely.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: This will become D78 -- I have lost track,
17 Madam Registrar. 786?
18 THE REGISTRAR: D786, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: D786, and it will be temporarily under seal. Thank
20 you, Mr. Jones.
21 MR. JONES:
22 Q. I want to take you to page 4, and it's the second paragraph. And
23 there that paragraph relates to Srebrenica. And I read: "Problems
24 included epidemic diarrhoea, scabies and lice infestation, poor water and
25 food supplies, and the absence of effective local organisation."
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 And it's actually that the phrase I want to draw your attention
2 to: "The absence of effective local organisation." Now, that's something
3 you commented on earlier. Can you comment in relation to -- to that
4 phrase and what you understood that to refer to?
5 A. It was a recurring report and impression from anyone, including
6 myself, there that the local organisation was not sufficiently -- was not
7 sufficient to deal with the continually deteriorating conditions and the
8 continually increasing numbers of people.
9 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Di Fazio.
11 MR. DI FAZIO: With respect to this evidence, firstly for it to be
12 understood I think the witness has to specify what sort of organisation he
13 is referring to. It may be the witness is referring to the local
14 organisation of medical facilities in the hospital and so on, rather than
15 any other sort of local organisation.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
17 MR. DI FAZIO: And it's important for that to be established.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, that's a very fair comment, Mr. Di Fazio.
19 Perhaps, Mr. Jones, could you address this distinction that
20 Mr. Di Fazio is eliciting from your witness.
21 MR. JONES: Yes.
22 Q. Did you understand this reference to effective local organisation
23 to be confined to the hospital and the medical system or to apply more
25 A. It's applied more broadly to all matters concerning the support of
1 community or any managing of community, whether it was crowd control
2 around -- around evacuation of wounded or vulnerable groups on buses or
3 lorries or whether it was addressing water -- trying to improve water
4 supply or food distribution.
5 Q. Okay thank you.
6 MR. JONES: I think that answers the question.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Jones.
8 MR. JONES: And then further down on the same page, the last
9 paragraph: "Many of the personnel working in the enclaves," and I'll
10 avoid mentioning the names of the agencies, "have witnessed awful scenes.
11 This particular blend of violence, disorder, and helplessness, makes
12 post-traumatic stress more likely."
13 Q. And again, if you're able to comment what you in Tuzla -- or,
14 sorry, what you would understand in that report, what that would refer
16 A. The combination of deteriorating public health conditions, the
17 large numbers of wounded, that tragedies like the schoolyard shelling and
18 the conditions that they're working in of -- with, for example, poor
19 lighting, unsafe from shelling, and the despair and the difficulty in
20 resting while in the enclave, combined -- there are a large number there
21 of the established risk factors for later development of post-traumatic
23 Q. All right. Thank you. You've referred to this schoolyard
24 shelling. I'm going to tender some exhibits in that regard in a moment.
25 I have one more exhibit on this subject, though, and it's, again, I
1 suppose under seal and, in an abundance of precaution, since it's
2 addressed to WHO Zagreb --
3 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm saying out of an abundance of precaution because
4 from past experience, particularly the way you haven't heard beforehand
5 from these international organisations, they come afterwards.
6 MR. JONES: Absolutely.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: And it's easier if we have taken this precaution
8 before rather than have to deal with it when these documents would have
9 already been made available --
10 MR. JONES: Yes, I absolutely endorse the Court's suggestion.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: I hope you understand I'm not trying to keep them
12 out of the records capriciously.
13 MR. JONES: Not at all. I entirely agree Your Honour's with that
15 Q. And if you could confirm that this was indeed authored by you, as
16 it appears? And you need to answer verbally.
17 A. Yes, myself and a colleague.
18 Q. Now, the date is the 22nd of April, 1993. We see there, and this
19 is a report from someone who had been in Srebrenica: "Massive
20 overcrowding, diarrhoea still a problem, filthy living conditions for
21 displaced people, difficulty of lice, scabies, et cetera, and prevent
23 My question is this: This was after demilitarisation of April
24 1993, is it correct that these problems you've testified about continued
25 even after demilitarisation, to your knowledge?
1 A. Yes, to my knowledge they appeared to continually deteriorate.
2 Q. Thank you?
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, this document that the witness has just
4 testified about is being tendered, received, and marked as Defence Exhibit
5 787, and it will enter into the record under seal for the time being until
6 further order.
7 MR. JONES: Thank you, Your Honour.
8 Q. Now, on the matter which you referred to of the schoolyard
9 shelling, there are a couple of exhibits which I would like to pass up.
10 There's one which is a telex dated 12th of April, 1993. The subject
11 is: "Slaughter of civilians in Srebrenica." And I'm going to avoid, yes,
12 referring to the persons whose name is mentioned there.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, please.
14 MR. JONES:
15 Q. It refers to sit reps which describe: "Appalling casualties from
16 shelling of the densely packed town of Srebrenica. In his early
17 reports, he is forced to use the phrase after a day of terror and horror
18 we are only guess to the scenes later which have led to a total of 56 dead
19 and 73 seriously wounded. Their little surgical team will have been
20 overwhelmed by this number of casualties, and many more can be expected to
21 die. It appears that even the long and difficult retreat to the south is
22 blocked, therefore the people are completely trapped by advancing
23 frontlines. Their main water supply from higher up the valley has
24 previously been cut off. With a population of around 60.000, many of whom
25 displaced from what has previously been acknowledged as ethnic cleansing,
1 then the present situation can only be described as an impending
3 Now, by question for you regarding this exhibit is, you spoke
4 earlier of the very difficult conditions under which the people in
5 Srebrenica had to operate. Here you refer to an impending holocaust. Is
6 that an opinion which you would endorse?
7 A. Yes. It's a very -- it's a very strong and emotive term and not
8 one that people would usually use, but in this case I felt it appropriate.
9 I've never -- I would never have used that term before or since to any
10 other situation.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, this document that the witness has asked about
12 is being tendered, received, and marked as Defence Exhibit 778, and it
13 is being entered into the records temporarily under seal until further
15 MR. JONES: There is now less information publicising the events
16 that are occurring in Srebrenica. We owe it to the people in that town
17 and to the international staff working there to use all means possible to
18 help them. I believe we also owe it to the Serbian people to reveal the
19 reality of the situation, if they and their children are to be spared the
20 dignity and shame that would eventually follow any genocide perpetrated by
21 their leaders."
22 Q. Now, is that right, then, that you considered there was a risk of
23 genocide back in April 1993?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And the people of Srebrenica, the people who you saw and spoke
1 with when you were there in March 1993, in your opinion, were they fearing
2 the same -- did they share these fears of an impending holocaust?
3 A. They did. Specifically I remember, for example, ordinary families
4 saying they could cope with the fear of Bosnian Serb army from their
5 neighbouring region and towns that they had lived in and -- but they were
6 particularly frightened of armed forces, Bosnian Serb forces from outside
7 of their region who did not have any -- who would not show any sympathy or
8 respect to them in the event that the -- in the event that the -- they
9 were overrun, the enclave was overrun.
10 Q. And you've described how just malnutrition could lead to people
11 neglecting basic duties of life, for example, hygiene. In your opinion,
12 living with that prospect, did that affect the priorities of the people
13 living in the enclave?
14 A. Yes. Could you be more specific? I'm sorry.
15 Q. I can give an example. Would people have been concerned to
16 investigate if there had been possible vandalism to Serb property in that
17 time, or would they be more concerned to avoid this holocaust?
18 A. Preoccupation was survival of their families.
19 Q. Thank you.
20 MR. JONES: I have another exhibit which, again, I think the same
21 procedure should be adopted as previously. It's a -- I believe it's a
22 telex which has been -- I'll ask this witness, but I believe it was
23 printed off in his office.
24 Q. Can you just --
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Eventually, Mr. Jones and Mr. Di Fazio, if you come
1 to the conclusion that you need to give publicity to these documents, the
2 way I see it, there can be redactions of names and other matters and it
3 could be done that way. But for the time being I think we need to
4 continue adopting this precautionary approach.
5 MR. JONES: Thank you, Your Honour. Yes.
6 Q. Now, Dr. Mardel, looking at that document, are you familiar with
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. In fact we can see in fact at the top -- well, I won't mention the
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.
12 MR. JONES:
13 Q. Let me proceed to the substance of it. We can all see from --
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, in the meantime before you do so, let me record
15 this -- the entry of this document, please. The witness is about to
16 testify on -- about a document consisting of four pages.
17 You are alleging that he prepared this document himself, aren't
19 MR. JONES: Not prepared, no; that he printed it off.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: That he printed it off. Okay. This document is
21 being tendered, received, and marked as Defence Exhibit 789. For the
22 reasons I mentioned earlier on, it is being entered into the records under
23 seal for the time being until further orders.
24 MR. JONES: Thank you.
25 Q. Yes, Dr. Mardel, firstly is it right that you received this
2 A. The communication came directly on to my machine in my office and
3 I took a copy of it while handing it to the addressee.
4 Q. Right. You forwarded it to other agencies?
5 A. Yes, across the corridor.
6 Q. I just want to turn to page 3. I'm going to read two passages.
7 First: "The stress and danger level in Srebrenica is such that all
8 personnel should be rotated after a maximum of two weeks. People in the
9 pocket witness unimaginable horrors and come close to losing their own
10 lives when carrying out everyday activities."
11 Then I move down to where he starts to describe events of 12th
12 April, 1993. "Although I had witnessed many terrible scenes in
13 Srebrenica, primarily of civilians being blown apart by shelling, nothing
14 I have ever seen compares to 12 April 1993 in terms of sheer horror."
15 Then further on down he says, the author of this document: "I
16 will never be able to convey the sheer horror and the atrocity I
17 witnessed on April 12th." Then he goes on,- further on to say: "A second
18 round of shelling into Srebrenica took place between 1550 and 1610,
19 resulting in further casualties. I saw the top of one house blown off
20 less than 50 metres from my position while travelling with UNMOs in their
22 Now, firstly I wanted to deal with that reference to rotation
23 after two weeks. Would you be able to confirm that for the people in
24 Srebrenica who experienced these shellings and these horrors, that they
25 must have been severely traumatised?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. We've seen the reference of the horrors of shelling in terms of
3 loss of human life. In this trial we are concerned with the damage to
4 property which shelling can cause. We saw this reference: "I saw the top
5 of one house blown off less than 50 metres from my position."
6 On the basis of your experience when you were in the pocket, can
7 you confirm that Serb shelling could rip off roofs and cause serious
8 damage to property?
9 A. Some of the heavier shelling meant that a house was not -- was no
10 longer safe. You could be killed in spite of sheltering indoors.
11 Q. Right. Thank you.
12 MR. JONES: I think that's enough for this document. I'm trying
13 to finish before the break and I think I might be able to sneak in before
14 the break.
15 There is another exhibit which I want to pass up which, for
16 different reasons, I was going to ask to keep under seal. And it's at the
17 request of this witness, for reasons of which, if necessary can be
18 explained in closed session if the Prosecution objects to it being kept
19 under seal.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: We'll do it differently. We'll have it entered into
21 the record, temporarily under seal, not to lose time, Mr. Jones. Then you
22 discuss amongst yourselves and if it's the case of reviewing or going back
23 on that decision, we will do it later.
24 MR. JONES: Thank you, Your Honour.
25 Q. Now --
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Sorry. Sorry. This will be Defence Exhibit 790 in
2 the meantime, and it is being entered into the records temporarily under
4 MR. JONES: Right.
5 Q. And, Dr. Mardel, are you happy for us to address this document in
6 public session?
7 A. It's the only document that I would ask if it could not be --
8 MR. JONES: Yes, I apologise. Let's go into closed session.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go into private session.
10 [Private session]
14 [Open session]
15 JUDGE AGIUS: We are back in open session.
16 MR. JONES: I have two finally matters I think I can deal with
17 very shortly. The first is actually from the Hollingworth book which is
18 an exhibit -- has previously been entered as an exhibit.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: I would suggest that you read from if it's not too
20 lengthy a quotation.
21 MR. JONES: I'll read it.
22 Q. This concerns a press conference, following the shelling of the
23 schoolyard, attended by yourself and Larry Hollingworth:
24 "Simon Mardel and I attended the press conference in Sarajevo the
25 following morning. I made the following statement. 'Simon and I wish to
1 speak, as we have shared some of the anguish of the people of Srebrenica.
2 When yesterday I heard the news about the shelling, my first thought was
3 of the army commander who ordered the shelling. I hope that he burns in
4 the hottest part of hell."
5 Do you recall that press conference?
6 A. I do.
7 Q. Then further down on that page ti says, and this is still Larry
8 Hollingworth speaking:
9 "'I then thought about my Serb friends whom I have met on my
10 travels. Do they wish to read in future history books that their army has
11 chased innocent women and children from village to village until they are
12 finally cornered in Srebrenica, a place from which there is no escape, and
13 where their fate is to be transported like cattle or slaughtered like
15 And what I want to ask you about that is, you referred earlier to
16 the people of Srebrenica having been chased to the last refuge. Is that
17 something which you -- is that your considered opinion, that they were
18 against the well, as it were?
19 A. Yes, it was. I was aware of both the geographical -- because of
20 the loop of the river Drina as well as the political and military sort of
21 front -- you know, front line. So there was no other option of safety for
23 Q. And finally, is it right that you were awarded Order of the
24 British Empire, OBE, for your service?
25 A. Yes.
1 MR. JONES: I have no further questions.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Jones.
3 Mr. Di Fazio, do you think that 45 minutes will be enough for you?
4 MR. DI FAZIO: No, so I'm going to ask that we have a shorter
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Can I suggest the following: We will have a shorter
7 break, 25 minutes instead of 30. And do -- can I count on the cooperation
8 of all the staff, interpreters, et cetera, to then stay over for maybe
9 five minutes, maximum ten minutes more.
10 MR. DI FAZIO: I think if we do that I should -- should -- I mean,
11 it's possible that I'll finish even earlier than the 45 minutes.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.
13 MR. DI FAZIO: I should be able to finish in that time. What I'm
14 concerned about is if you have any questions.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, but anyway. Okay. All right. Let's have a
16 shorter break, 25 minutes, please. And everyone, please try to be as
17 punctual as possible.
18 --- Recess taken at 12:32 p.m.
19 --- On resuming at 12:56 p.m.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Jones.
21 MR. JONES: May I -- my apologies, but in my haste there were two
22 photographs --
23 JUDGE AGIUS: I was going to point that out the end.
24 MR. JONES: I would be grateful if they could be exhibited because
25 the witness did say that he took them.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: So the last two photos in the bundle that was handed
2 over earlier, the photo which includes the three children in the
3 foreground is being marked as Defence Exhibit D791. And the other photo
4 which shows two men and two women is being marked as Exhibit D792. Yes,
5 thank you.
6 Yes, Mr. Di Fazio.
7 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you, Your Honours.
8 Cross-examined by Mr. Di Fazio:
9 Q. Dr. Mardel, I just want to ask you very briefly about the first
10 night after your arrival in Konjevic Polje. You'd got in I think late on
11 the night of the 5th, had this meeting with what you saw as
12 representatives, and then circumstances presented themselves such that you
13 could do the hike into Srebrenica. Correct?
14 A. Correct.
15 Q. Right. Was a gentleman named Pyers Tucker with you on that night?
16 A. I now know the name, but then I wasn't aware of who he was.
17 Q. Sure. Were there other soldiers about whose names you didn't know
18 accompanying your party?
19 A. I knew most of them, but yes.
20 MR. DI FAZIO: Just bear with me a moment. Could the witness be
21 shown D224, and to save extra trips, D232 might as well be taken up to the
22 witness as well, please. Oh, and D777, sorry. And they can be kept there
23 for the duration of my cross-examination. Yes.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Which one are you going to start --
25 MR. DI FAZIO: This --
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Which one are you going to start with?
2 MR. DI FAZIO: Exhibit D224, which is under seal.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: D224.
4 MR. DI FAZIO: So perhaps, I suppose, we ought to go into private
5 session very briefly.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: It depends on what your question is.
7 MR. DI FAZIO: Very well, perhaps I can save us the trouble.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you want to go into private session?
9 MR. DI FAZIO: I don't think it's necessary, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: It depends. It's doesn't necessarily follow that
11 everything that is under seal, anything that has to do with it has to be
12 in private session.
13 MR. DI FAZIO: Thanks.
14 Q. You can find out who the author of this document is, Dr. Mardel,
15 if you go to the second page, and you see at the top, it says H -- it says
16 various things. And then on -- there's a little -- couple of boxes, and
17 you can see there's a reference to who drafted the document.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Have you got it?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Right. Okay, and then if you turn over the next page, you go to
22 -- you refer to Konjevic Polje, and there's a reference to General --
23 General Morillon visiting a certain place at a certain time on a certain
24 date. You see the date? Paragraph 4, directly underneath the heading
25 "Konjevic Polje." It says: "The General ..." visited a certain place
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 from 8.00 to 10.30 on a certain date.
2 A. Right.
3 Q. And it then goes on to say that whilst the UN -- representative of
4 an international body and another international body explored the village.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Thank you. Was Larry Hollingworth the representative of one of
7 those two bodies mentioned?
8 A. I can't -- I don't think I can -- I don't know that.
9 Q. Well, fine.
10 A. I don't know.
11 Q. That's -- I won't press on with that. Have you got any reason --
12 well, let me put it -- ask you this: Do you agree that there was such a
13 tour of Konjevic Polje by members of your party, as far as you know,
14 because I know you weren't there, but as far as you know, was there such a
15 tour the following day, on the 6th of March?
16 A. A tour of Konjevic Polje?
17 Q. Yes.
18 A. Of -- to assess the wounded?
19 Q. Yes.
20 A. Yes, because I was somehow passed or received --
21 Q. That's right.
22 A. -- a list of the numbers of wounded and was then able to work from
23 that list and see who was -- there was deaths or additions or movements.
24 Q. Right. In fact, if you now look at D232, which we can openly
25 refer to, that's your report.
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And on the sixth page, that's three from the last page, you deal
3 with the medical situation in Konjevic Polje. You refer to an assessment
4 on the 6th of March.
5 A. Mmm.
6 Q. Which was a -- medical in nature because you received a copy of a
7 list of patients.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. 76 patients. Correct?
10 A. Yeah, yeah.
11 Q. Okay. Yes. Thank you.
12 You have -- you can put the documents down. I have just finished
13 with them for the moment. You referred to food boxes -- actually, no, if
14 you could get D232 again, please. On the same page, there's a reference
15 to food boxes, under the heading "Food Supplies."
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And you counted only half the number of boxes that there should
18 have been in this supermarket that you visited. Do you know what happened
19 to the other half?
20 A. I assume they were either not found or, more commonly, kept by
21 people, understandably, in those conditions for their own families or
22 selves, or eaten on the road.
23 Q. Did you actually see people eating the meals?
24 A. I certainly saw a lot of the very distinctive wrappers.
25 Q. Wrappers, okay. But you actually don't know if a significant
1 portion of that half that went missing was collected in an organised or
2 formal way by any other body or group. You just couldn't say if that
3 happened or if that did not happen?
4 A. No, but, you know, these are being dropped in rural areas in snow.
5 The -- this was not seen as a particular problem, that only half were
6 collected. What was -- what mattered was that they were out by a large
7 factor of about four or five for the entire enclave.
8 Q. I'm sorry, I'm not with you. Out by what, sorry?
9 A. A large fact -- the air drop had to be increased by about three
10 times the total supply on the basis of -- of this estimation. Not -- you
11 know, for 50 per cent loss of whatever it was not the real issue; there
12 was just -- the total number was insufficient.
13 Q. Okay.
14 A. One would never expect a scattered air drop to have anything like
15 a full collection.
16 Q. Right. There's going to be inevitable loss because of all sorts
17 of factors, correct?
18 A. Yeah.
19 Q. One factor might be hungry, starving people stealing them as they
20 arrived, drifted down out of the sky and hit the ground. Correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. But you don't know if there was any other factor, such as some
23 sort of formal or more organised appropriation of the food.
24 A. No.
25 Q. You don't. Thank you.
1 You gave extensive evidence about the medical conditions that you
2 observed, the horrific conditions that you observed in Srebrenica. And I
3 don't need to -- I've heard all of that and I don't need to dwell on that.
4 Is it the case that there were groupings within the Srebrenica area, the
5 part of Srebrenica that you saw, the town and any other part that you saw
6 on your way into Srebrenica and back to Konjevic Polje, who suffered more
7 than others? And I'm referring to people who lived in the town and had
8 been residents of the town, people who lived in villages just outside of
9 the town, and people who were refugees who had been displaced from other
10 more outlying areas and had come into the town. Bearing those three
11 groupings in mind, would you say that the degree to which they suffered
12 from all of the conditions that you described was more intense in the
13 group of refugees who had come in from outlying areas to seek shelter and
14 take refuge in Srebrenica? Would you agree with that?
15 A. Yes. The worst group would be internally displaced people who did
16 not have relatives or friends to stay with and had no -- no means of
17 getting good shelter.
18 Q. Yeah. Right. And in fact I think there's actual reference in
19 D232, your report, to that. You -- on the fourth page -- my copy is not
20 numbered. On the fourth page, you say -- you refer to people -- three
21 broad classes of people with different nutritional status. Of course,
22 none of them were doing very well, of course, but people living in
23 villages, they had, as you say, considerable advantages because of
24 close-knit society, knowledge of the land, and so on. And then you
25 describe your observations.
1 And then over the page, there's a second grouping, people who own
2 houses and who may -- in Srebrenica and who may have relatives in the
3 nearby villages. And in fact, you refer to a -- in that second grouping,
4 you refer to the town hall having a list of high-priority people who were
5 said to be in greatest need. Now, were those high-priority people who
6 were said to be in greatest need also people who were suffering the most
7 from the physical afflictions that you've described; the malnutrition, the
8 anaemia, the infection, and so on?
9 A. I think it was -- it appeared -- there was obviously a compromise
10 between who they had records of and how accessible they were to finding
11 those people and also how they in turn had access to that stationary soup
13 Q. And there's no doubt about it when you deal with the third group,
14 the displaced people, you say: "These refugees are the most vulnerable
15 group as they fall outside the help offered by village or town
17 They are the group that exhibited, by far, the most symptoms of
18 all of the afflictions that you have described in Court. Correct or not?
19 A. No. The point of this is vulnerability. I'm highlighting
20 vulnerability. I know I've used the word "nutritional status," but we use
21 food security as -- an evaluation of people's food security. So it's not
22 necessarily the condition they're in right now, but how vulnerable they
23 would be to continuing -- where effort needs to be targeted.
24 Q. Is it the case that the greater access to food a person has, the
25 more likely they are to be healthy than a person who has lesser access to
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. A basic rule --
4 A. I would agree with that.
5 Q. Yeah, okay.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: I would be very surprised if he didn't.
7 MR. DI FAZIO:
8 Q. And the displaced people were the ones having the most trouble
9 getting access to food, weren't they, from what you could see?
10 A. They were especially vulnerable, yeah.
11 Q. And the conditions that you saw, and as far as you're aware, had
12 been exacerbated or at least largely compounded by a more recent wave of
13 refugees in January -- from -- starting at about January, February, who
14 had flooded into Srebrenica. I mean January, February of 1993. Do -- is
15 that what your information told you?
16 A. I knew there were recent and I saw recent internally displaced
17 people, yes.
18 Q. Sure. I have no doubt you saw that. But did you have
19 intelligence information to the effect that in January, February there had
20 been a large influx of refugees into Srebrenica, refugees from the
21 outlying areas?
22 A. I don't remember a specific date. I've -- I recall an impression
23 that there was a continual top-up or continual increase in people. And if
24 somewhere like Cerska fell, then there were more.
25 Q. In the time that you were there, were there any outbreaks of
2 A. I was concerned about a potential for typhus and just reported the
3 detailed accounts that could suggest that it was there, but, you know, I
4 can't confirm it and I -- you know, I haven't -- I have nothing -- nothing
5 to confirm that there was typhus and didn't see any cases.
6 Q. Okay. Thanks. Lice infestation. To an untrained observer
7 looking at someone who was suffering from lice, is it the case that a
8 person can suffer from degrees of lice infestation? So to the untrained
9 observer looking on -- looking at someone, they may not see any real
10 obvious sign of lice infestation, but in a very heavy infestation it would
11 be manifest -- clearly visible to the naked eye?
12 A. There's three different kinds of lice. Clothing lice --
13 Q. Right.
14 A. -- are, you know, common. And you have to look -- they prefer to
15 live in the seams of clothing --
16 Q. Right.
17 A. -- so they are absolutely not visible to the untrained eye. Head
18 lice are, if it's a heavy infestation, you may notice them close up, but
19 sometimes people can even not appreciate that someone -- a patient they're
20 treating has them and then you're -- without looking very closely.
21 Q. Thank you. You've spoken about stressors and stress factors on
22 people that were operating at the time. Is being incarcerated in a small,
23 dank, dark room a stressful -- normally a quite stressful thing?
24 A. Yes, it would be.
25 Q. A person who was suffering from lice infestation and may or may
1 not -- and is suffering -- let me rephrase that.
2 A person who was suffering from lice infestation and is also
3 malnourished and is subjected to brutal and vicious assault using boots,
4 gun butts, instruments such as pieces of wood, being punched on a fairly
5 regular basis, is their ability to be able to withstand that physical
6 assault greatly diminished by their condition, with the lice infestation
7 and the malnutrition?
8 A. The lice infestation wouldn't affect their ability. It is a risk
9 factor for typhus and typhus is endemic to that part of the world. It
10 exists and it could have been a serious -- very lethal epidemic. Their
11 nutritional status would affect their ability to heal from bruises or
13 Q. And would it affect their -- whether or not they succumbed to
14 their injuries resulting from a savage assault, such that they are more
15 likely to die than a person in good, robust health?
16 A. Yes. Even severe anaemia would compromise your ability to heal
17 from wounds that could otherwise be survived.
18 Q. And malnutrition -- the onset of clinical malnutrition, what you
19 would recognise and describe medically as malnutrition, does that depend
20 on, I assume, how much food you're getting and the quality of the food?
21 If it's really bad, I assume the onset is faster; if it's not so bad, I
22 assume the onset is slower. Is that essentially correct or not?
23 A. Yes, it's not just the quantity but the quality of the food.
24 Q. Right. Okay. If food a person is receiving is bad in both terms
25 of quality and quantity, over what period of time would you expect that
1 person to develop symptoms of malnutrition that you as a doctor would say,
2 yes, that person has got -- is suffering from malnutrition?
3 A. It depends extraordinarily to a great extent on the balance of the
4 nutrition. Some micronutrients or vitamins, you can get a deficiency
5 occurring easily within a month. Vitamin C, folate, some vitamins are not
6 stored in the body and need constant replenishment. The body -- people
7 will cope with a couple of weeks of starvation quite -- quite well, but
8 once you run into, you know, more prolonged periods -- but I have to
9 emphasise, it depends on the nature. For example, Sarajevo, people
10 require 600 grams of food a day to maintain nutritional status. There's
11 even a formula for winter conditions when they burn more fuel. For that
12 period that I was in Sarajevo, for much of that time the average portion
13 actually arriving in Sarajevo per person and distributed was about 250.
14 So they were, you know, malnourished but not -- they were able -- even
15 that 50 per cent ration, or abouts, was sufficient to keep them going.
16 But Srebrenica was a very different -- were totally different figures.
17 Q. And what sort of time periods can people survive for in the
18 scenario that you just described where there's about a 50 per cent ration
19 of what is necessary to keep a person alive?
20 A. It will depend on how big you are to start with, what activities
21 you're doing, the coldness of your surroundings and how much of your
22 energy you need to convert to heat just to stay alive. So there's a huge
23 number of factors. And as I said, the micronutrients, the vitamins, can
24 actually play a large role.
25 It's a slippery slope. People don't die, as such, of starvation.
1 They die, for example, of pneumonia because their body can't produce
2 antibodies. Antibodies are made of protein. You see people losing their
3 muscle mass, that's protein, they also lose their antibody production, so
4 they become prone to infections. So it's a complex balance of the
5 environment and exposure and what particular bugs, bacterial viruses.
6 Q. Look, I don't even think I need to show you the photos. I'm
7 actually looking at Exhibits D785 and D781, and one is the photograph of
8 the poor gentleman obviously badly, badly emaciated, with a splint on his
9 leg. You've told us about that.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And then you see by contrast the two gentlemen operating the
12 radio --
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. -- in Exhibit D785. Now, to the untrained eye, of course, my
15 untrained eye, the gentleman with the splint clearly appears to be
16 suffering from starvation or malnutrition, whereas the other two seem
17 reasonably healthy. Would you -- did you see those sorts of contrasts?
18 Firstly, do you accept my basic description of the men depicted in these
19 photographs; and secondly, did you see contrasts like that in the
20 Srebrenica area?
21 A. It's a mistake to evaluate nutritional status just on a facial
23 Q. Right.
24 A. Those young -- the young twins there, they've got thin faces, but
25 most of the face is made up of bony structure. You would need to look at
1 arm circumference, for example, to see how much protein they've lost, or
2 fat and protein. So it's not a valid -- they're not valid comparisons.
3 If we just look at the two faces, for example, that would be invalid,
4 compare all their faces. The fact that that man has got his arms and part
5 of his pelvis exposed gives us more of an ability. But, yes, he's in
6 hospital and he's got a wound. There are clearly other contributing
8 Q. Yes. Okay, thanks. Now, the gentlemen who took you over from
9 Konjevic Polje to -- down to Srebrenica were obviously fit, young men,
10 weren't they?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Were they armed?
13 A. Yes, they were.
14 Q. And do you know who assigned them to help you -- to take you
15 across the -- through those paths and eventually down to Srebrenica?
16 A. I don't know exactly who. It obviously was an assignation and it
17 was -- there was organisation. They were clearly tasked to do that.
18 Q. Right. Now, for -- for a person who's been living in the
19 Srebrenica area from about April of 1992 up until the time you arrived, in
20 order for a man, youngish man, to be able to carry weaponry, possibly
21 carry ammunition, to be able to march reasonably long distances through
22 harsh terrain, uphill and down dale, over mountains, in the cold, and go
23 into combat would require that person to have a certain degree of
24 nourishment in order for him to be able to carry out that task. You would
25 have to agree with that.
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And people suffering from malnutrition would be unable to do that,
3 certainly on a -- on anything like a continuous basis. Would you agree?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. The young men that you saw and who took you up over the hill and
6 down into Srebrenica would have been quite capable, wouldn't they, of
7 carrying weaponry, ammunition, travelling long distances, and going into
8 action at the end of it?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Did you actually lay eyes on Mr. Oric when you were in Konjevic
11 Polje? Do you have any --
12 A. I may well have done, but I can't remember that. The fact that I
13 can't remember that doesn't mean that I didn't see him.
14 Q. In the time that you were in Srebrenica, did you -- were you made
15 aware of any body called a War Presidency that was overseeing local -- a
16 local authority called the War Presidency?
17 A. May I go back to your previous question?
18 Q. Sure.
19 A. I might have misunderstood you. Are you referring to did I see
20 Mr. Oric at the meeting in what was reported as the school room on my way
21 in, or did I meet him at any stage? Because I believe I did meet him on
22 my way out.
23 Q. Well, yes, actually --
24 A. I believe I did meet him on my way out, if I may clarify that.
25 Q. So you've got no memory of meeting him on the way in?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. But you do recall seeing him or meeting him on the way out?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And did he strike you as being a fit, powerful, young man?
5 A. No, but I wouldn't have -- there's no reason I could have made an
6 assessment if -- as I recall the meeting, people were standing by the
7 road. I asked questions, I asked for water, and, you know, I -- it was a
8 station -- they directed me to where I could find the radio so I could
9 communicate again --
10 Q. Sure.
11 A. -- with my organisation.
12 Q. Just while we're on that, you mentioned when you were talking
13 about D785, which is the photograph of the two young men next to the --
14 next to the radio set, that it was the - and I quote your words - "the
15 only link with the outside world."
16 Would I be correct in saying that it's the only link with the
17 outside world that you saw? Or do you have any other information as to
18 the existence of other radio sets?
13 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment before we continue because it appears to
14 me, please, this last part of the witness's testimony as to the regards of
15 what is the practice of his organisation, let's redact it, please. I
16 don't think it is in the interests of anyone to know that.
17 MR. DI FAZIO: May I?
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead. In the meantime our registrar will look
19 into that.
20 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you, Your Honour.
21 Q. D777. And Mr. Hollingworth says this, he's talking about a period
22 of time when presumably you had gone down to Srebrenica. "He arranged for
23 Lawrence and myself to go to the amateur radio station which was in a
24 small house on the top of a hill. The living-room was comfortably
25 furnished. Along one wall was a desk and on the desk was the 'ham' radio
1 where a young man in uniform sat.
2 'I want to speak to Simon in Srebrenica. Is he there yet?'
3 'Oh yes, he got there early this morning. He is in the hospital
5 So from --
6 [Prosecution counsel confer]
7 MR. DI FAZIO:
8 Q. And then the -- and then eventually contact is established. So do
9 you have any memory of being contacted from Konjevic Polje in Srebrenica
10 through the use of radio sets?
11 A. I don't -- I may have to think hard about that. I don't recall
12 a -- it's possible that Mr. Hollingworth may have spoken to me, but quite
13 often there were, kind of, messages left or we knew there'd been contact
14 made. And I -- I only recall the contacts with -- with Tuzla and a UNHCR
15 representative by the radio there.
16 Q. But you're not, I take it, ruling out such a matter?
17 A. No.
18 Q. It could have happened that you've got no memory of it.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: I notice Mr. Jones.
20 MR. JONES: Your Honour, just to be fair to the witness, in that
21 extract, it's a reference for a message being left for the visitor, not to
22 contact -- being established two-way contact. So that's what's being
23 referred to in this passage.
24 MR. DI FAZIO: Fair enough.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 MR. DI FAZIO:
2 Q. You don't have any memory of receiving a message that apparently
3 had been left for you by way of radio in Srebrenica?
4 A. It -- I think I did receive messages, but most of them were
5 from -- were from Tuzla.
6 Q. All right. Thanks. Now, let's just get back to the civil
7 authorities. I was asking you about a War Presidency. Did you ever
8 become aware of the existence of any such body in the time that you were
10 A. Of a War Presidency?
11 Q. Of something called a War Presidency?
12 A. No. But I would not -- my job would not -- it's not in the nature
13 of my job, you know, to know or find out of its existence.
14 Q. I understand that perfectly well. I understand what your brief
15 was and what you were there to do. What you say makes perfect sense, with
16 respect. But I will continue to ask you nonetheless, because you may have
17 learned from other sources. Were you aware or did you see anything that
18 indicated the existence of a military police in Srebrenica?
19 A. No --
20 Q. Thank you.
21 A. -- definitely not.
22 Q. Were you aware of or see anything that indicated to you the
23 existence of a staff command for fighters in Srebrenica, a command
24 headquarters of some sort, some description?
25 A. There was a map -- one map on a wall in a room that I looked at
1 and was shown in discussions about how I would go back to Konjevic Polje.
2 And the -- you know, the -- that was not a civilian kind of a map.
3 Q. Sure.
4 A. Or the -- you know, and when asking for an escort, which I --
5 which never kind of materialised every day except on the last day after I
6 left, I must have been asking someone with -- with -- with some access to
7 getting me an escort.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't think that that answers your question,
9 Mr. Di Fazio.
10 MR. DI FAZIO: No. Well, not entirely, no.
11 Q. Is the map -- I asked you about the existence of a -- of a staff
12 command or a command headquarters, and you took us to this issue of the
14 A. Yeah.
15 Q. Do you -- in your mind do you associate the existence of a map
16 with a staff command or is -- are you just saying that because it's the
17 only thing you can offer in terms of seeing anything that might
18 indicate --
19 A. That's my only experience. I know the hotel -- there was a brief
20 meeting in the hotel, you know, that -- you know, that may have been some
21 sort of structure linked to that building. But this map was either in the
22 radio room or in a building or in the same building or nearby. And I
23 reported to that room every day ready to go with my rucksack and
25 JUDGE AGIUS: That explains it better.
1 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, it does.
2 Q. Thanks. You've mentioned a hotel. Are you saying that the map
3 was in the hotel?
4 A. No, completely --
5 JUDGE AGIUS: He never said that.
6 MR. DI FAZIO:
7 Q. Did you become aware of a place called a PTT building, is it like
8 the postal or telegraph building in Srebrenica?
9 A. I later found that they were referring to the radio room as that,
10 and I -- in retrospect I think there was -- sort of a telephone
11 building --
12 Q. Yeah.
13 A. But to me it was a radio -- the room where the map was and where I
14 would go was either to an adjacent building or the same building.
15 Q. Okay. Just to be absolutely clear on that. The building that
16 you've described as the sort of telephone building, is that the building
17 where you saw this map of which you have been speaking? If you can't
18 remember --
19 A. I wouldn't say that with a hundred per cent --
20 Q. Okay.
21 A. But they must have been fairly close proximity.
22 Q. Thanks. Thanks for your help.
23 Just one last thing. D232, which I think you have there, is
24 talking about Dr. Nedret Mujkanovic. And Mr. Jones took you to the
25 passage where you speak of him, and he took you to the reference to
1 Dr. Mujkanovic having the appearance of being burnt out. And in your
2 report you go on to say: "Now spends much of his time attending other
3 matters in the town."
4 Do you know what other matters he was attending to?
5 A. I don't. I don't know if they were civilian, humanitarian,
6 organisational matters. The other doctors adjusted their clinicals, they
7 didn't deal with the sort of wider issues and they didn't deal with any
8 trauma surgery, for example. So I was aware -- I felt that he -- he
9 didn't want -- he wanted to avoid doing too much work anymore, and that
10 was the point of making that, that he, you know, was -- was trying to find
11 other responsibilities.
12 Q. Sure.
13 A. And I could completely understand that, and I was trying to say
14 that tactfully.
15 Q. Thank you. Sorry, that wasn't actually my last topic, just one
16 more. Hollingworth, Larry Hollingworth, did you see him down in
17 Srebrenica in those five days or so that you were there?
18 A. No.
19 Q. So he -- do you know where he was in that period of time?
20 A. He must have spent -- well, he wasn't -- you know, they left
21 Konjevic Polje, you know, the following day after I -- I'd left or shortly
22 after. I assume they would have gone back to Tuzla or Zvornik.
23 Q. Did you see him in later weeks and month?
24 A. Regularly.
25 Q. Did you?
1 A. Yeah.
2 Q. Did you help him write his book or contribute to it?
3 A. Yes. He asked me to contribute -- for details, much later.
4 Q. Do you have any idea or knowledge if he spent much time with
5 Mr. Oric, Naser Oric?
6 A. His position in his organisation, he would deal with figures of
7 authority or people, you know, people in a community and would be more --
8 is likely to have met a great number of people.
9 Q. Yes. Thank you very much, Dr. Mardel.
10 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Di Fazio.
12 Mr. Jones, is there re-examination?
13 MR. JONES: Yes, only a very few questions.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
15 Re-examined by Mr. Jones:
16 Q. In cross-examination a scenario was put to you where someone had
17 been a victim of a vicious and brutal assault and there were the other
18 contributory factors that could lead to illness or death. In the course
19 of your examination-in-chief, we spoke about multifactorial factors of
20 death. My question is this: If someone is malnourished, is suffering
21 from disease and also suffers an assault, never mind whether it's a
22 brutal and vicious assault, an assault, isn't it not a matter of a
23 question of degree as to what is the substantial cause of death if someone
24 dies who is malnourished, who has been beaten and who has -- suffers from
1 A. Yes. Different degrees of trauma we would, for example, see in
2 the elderly, a small amount of trauma can result in death because of
3 contributing factors of delayed wound healing, inability to stop bleeding
5 Q. And how, in fact, in the UK do you deal with that if you have to
6 fill in a death certificate when recording the cause of death where there
7 are many causes?
8 A. In our country we have three separate sections of cause of death.
9 So you can have cause of death in itself, antistent [phoen] cause, and
10 then a third one, what even might have caused that, and then there's
11 another section of contributing factors.
12 Q. So you may not plunk for a particular, substantial cause of death;
13 it may be several factors which all caused death?
14 A. Yes, there is a hierarchy. There is prior cause of death and then
15 factors which influence.
16 Q. Now, you were asked -- looking at two of the photographs, about
17 what you can tell by looking at them. I just want very quickly to show
18 you one of the photographs which you didn't deal with, D791, and it's
19 again to comment on what one can tell from appearances. I don't know if
20 you have the photographs with you still. It's the one with the three
21 children in the front. Sorry, D791.
22 It's simply to ask you this: In this picture I think you would
23 agree none of the people are smiling at all, are they, in this family
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Is that usual? Is that -- is there anything which you would draw
2 from that -- from those appearances?
3 A. That they're demoralised and frightened.
4 Q. In your experience in taking photographs in war zones, how common
5 is it to have a picture like that where in fact nobody is even trying a
7 A. It's unusual. People are relieved to see someone from the
8 outside, to see someone -- you know, to see signs of support. And whilst
9 they are very appreciative of me, I think circumstances -- their
10 circumstances were too severe to -- to do -- to give the normal, automatic
11 response to a camera, worldwide.
12 Q. All right. Thank you. Now, you were asked about civil
13 authorities in Srebrenica, and I think you said you weren't aware of any.
14 In Konjevic Polje were you aware of a mayor or any type of civil
16 A. Yes. I -- I thought that there was -- I don't know if it's the
17 right word, but there was a woman who was, you know, leading the
18 community. I referred to her as mayor or she was referred to -- I don't
19 know if that's my misreading of her status, but she had a responsibility
20 for the community and sometimes spoke for them.
21 Q. Thank you. Now, you were asked about a command headquarters and
22 you referred to this map. Would you accept that a map -- a map on a wall
23 isn't indicative or doesn't prove that there is a structure or staff
24 command? You weren't saying that, actually, were you?
25 A. No, but it was, you know, the thing that stuck in my mind as a,
1 you know, as a point that I went to about leaving the pocket each day.
2 Q. Right. And that map would have dated from before the conflict I
3 take it?
4 A. Yeah, it was a proper, printed, colour map, yes. Yeah.
5 Q. In other words, it hadn't been produced in the enclave?
6 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, I don't know if the witness can talk about
7 when the map was produced or --
8 JUDGE AGIUS: I think the objection has to be sustained,
9 Mr. Jones.
10 MR. DI FAZIO: It's an invitation to a world of speculation.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's use the least time possible --
12 MR. JONES: Yes.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: We are already over the time limit.
14 MR. JONES: Certainly, Your Honour. Just two points. Firstly,
15 the witness answered "no" to my question. Secondly, it's not speculative
16 if I ask the witness, Did you see any facilities, did anyone indicate to
17 you that it was possible to publish a coloured map in Srebrenica at that
19 A. We used to regularly in Sarajevo go to the map-producing room and
20 I could see the complexity of that to produce black and white, large black
21 and white maps which had the red lines in -- red ink was the only colour,
22 outlining the areas which we had to be aware of. So that's very
23 sophisticated. I saw nothing -- really couldn't -- wouldn't have thought
24 that anything like that would exist there.
25 Q. There in Srebrenica?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Now -- two final questions. You referred to a hotel and you said:
3 That may have been some sort of -- there may have been some sort of
4 structure linked to that building. That's not something which you
5 actually know one way or another, is it, whether there was some sort of
6 organised military structure linked to a hotel, is it?
7 A. No, but I was clearly taken to a meeting there, but I can't
8 remember details from it and it didn't have any bearing on my reports. So
9 I didn't put it in.
10 Q. Sorry. You did say also that you reported to this room with the
11 map. Had actually anyone told you to appear there on a daily basis or do
12 you just mean that you showed up there?
13 A. I was to have only stayed a day in Srebrenica, and so every day I
14 was, you know, making a plan to leave. And I went there to get, you know,
15 an escort to take me -- to take me out. But I spent a lot of time waiting
16 there and --
17 Q. Just to make progress and to bring this to an -- no one told you,
18 did they, to report to that location every day? That was our own
20 A. Something must have made me, you know, pick that place to go to
21 knowing that, you know, I'm going -- you know, I'm going to be given, you
22 know, an escort to take me -- to guide me out of the pocket. But I can't
23 remember what.
24 Q. And absolutely finally, the last question which was put by my
25 learned friend I don't believe you actually answered. It was:
1 "Q. Do you have any idea or knowledge if he, Hollingworth, spent
2 much time with Mr. Oric, Naser Oric?"
3 And you gave an answer which was to do with Mr. Hollingworth
4 meeting a great number of people. Do you have specific knowledge that
5 Larry Hollingworth spent time with Naser Oric? And I would appreciate if
6 you could answer with a yes or no.
7 A. No.
8 Q. Thank you.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you very much, Mr. Jones.
10 There's one question from Judge Brydensholt.
11 Questioned by the Court:
12 JUDGE BRYDENSHOLT: Doctor, during your stay at the hospital, did
13 you notice that that was an armed person outside the entrance to this
15 A. No. I think I would have remembered if there had been. It was a
16 very slippery, icy slope leading up to the entrance and it's cold. To
17 have someone standing outside, I think I would have remembered that.
18 JUDGE BRYDENSHOLT: Do you, by the way, remember if a crowd was
19 outside, a crowd of relatives of somebody brought in wounded to the
20 hospital? Was there a sort of chaos around the hospital when you were
22 A. There were clinics associated with it, so people, you know, large
23 numbers of people attending. And people would have brought food for their
24 sick relatives, so there would have been a more-than-usual number of
25 people in and around a building like that.
1 JUDGE BRYDENSHOLT: Thank you.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Judge Eser.
3 It will soon be over, doctor.
4 Yes, go ahead.
5 JUDGE ESER: Doctor, during the examination-in-chief you had been
6 asked about the time when you were in Srebrenica, did you ever hear
7 anything about Naser Oric that you recall? And your answer was: "Nothing
8 that I recall."
9 Now, what I want to know is that: Did you not recall the Naser
10 Oric, that you haven't heard of him at all, or was it that you knew that
11 there was a person like Naser Oric but you did not hear anything about
12 him, what his duties are?
13 A. I didn't hear anything about a figurehead or -- or an individual,
14 you know, that made any impression on me to remember.
15 JUDGE ESER: But that's not completely an answer to my question.
16 Did you hear the name of Naser Oric at all?
17 A. It's quite -- it's quite possible that I did. I don't -- I don't
19 JUDGE ESER: Now, apart from Dr. Mujkanovic, whom you had
20 mentioned, and other medical personnel, did you hear of any other people
21 with whom they had to do their time? Did you hear the name of -- got the
22 name of other people?
23 A. No, I don't -- you know, there were no key figures that I -- that
24 I acknowledged or remembered.
25 JUDGE ESER: And with regard to your own function, would it have
1 been important for you to know the name or function of those who had to do
2 with General Morillon?
3 A. Who had to do with General Morillon? No. I was -- I was allowed
4 to function, you know, freely, and so I didn't need to negotiate with
5 anyone about what I could or couldn't do. The only points of reference
6 daily were -- I wanted to use the radio and spent some time there. And
7 every day I was ready to go back to Konjevic Polje, as was in the original
9 JUDGE ESER: Mm-hmm. Thank you.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Judge Eser, and I thank you,
11 Judge Brydensholt.
12 I don't have questions for you, Dr. Mardel. I wish to express my
13 gratitude on behalf of Chamber on your accepting to come over as a witness
14 in this trial. And you will receive all the assistance that you require
15 to facilitate your return back to your home or duties at the earliest. I
16 wish to thank publicly both parties, Prosecution, for their cooperation,
17 without which you would have had to return Monday. And also the technical
18 staff, interpreters, court recorders, everyone else, for having overstayed
19 like many -- on many other occasions here to make this possible. I also
20 wish you on behalf of everyone present here a safe journey back home.
21 Thank you.
22 Now, before we rise, you have handed, Mr. Jones, a list of the
23 documents that you would like to be forensically examined. I suppose you
24 have a copy of it?
25 MR. WUBBEN: Yes, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. There is some of them, there are some of them,
2 that are documents that have not been tendered into evidence, that they
3 belong to the Prosecution, for which the registrar, as such, for the time
4 being is not responsible.
5 You can escort the witness out.
6 [The witness withdrew]
7 JUDGE AGIUS: I would like you -- because I don't want to keep
8 anyone here for any longer, I would like to have an exchange among --
9 between you to see if you could agree on a protocol with regard to those
10 documents, the documents that belong to the Prosecution, and come back to
11 us on Monday morning if there is agreement. If there is no agreement, of
12 course you will tell us that much. All right. Thank you.
13 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.55 p.m.,
14 to be reconvened on Monday, the 3rd day of
15 October, 2005, at 9.00 a.m.