Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 11731

1 Monday, 3 October 2005

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.19 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Registrar, good morning to you. Could you

6 call the case, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, good morning, Your Honours. This is case

8 number IT-03-68, the Prosecutor versus Naser Oric.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. Mr. Oric, can you follow proceedings

10 in a language that you can understand?

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours, ladies

12 and gentlemen. I can follow the proceedings in my mother tongue.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you and good morning to you.

14 Appearances for the Prosecution?

15 MR. WUBBEN: Good morning, Your Honours and also good morning to

16 my learned friends of the Defence. My name is Jan Wubben, lead counsel

17 for the Prosecution. I'm here together with counsel, Ms. Patricia

18 Sellers, Ms. Joanne Richardson, and our case manager,

19 Ms. Donnica Henry-Frijlink.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Wubben and good morning to you and

21 your team.

22 Appearances for Naser Oric?

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [No interpretation]

24 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't want to you think that I'm in a sadistic

25 mood, Ms. Vidovic but there was no interpretation and probably you will

Page 11732

1 have to repeat everything again. Is there a technical problem?

2 THE INTERPRETER: [No interpretation]

3 JUDGE AGIUS: I heard Madam Vidovic. One moment, please wait. I

4 heard Madam Vidovic but I was not receiving any interpretation. And I am

5 on channel 4. That's the first thing I check when I walk in. So I want

6 to know for sure whether there is a problem with interpretation.

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours, my name

8 is Vasvija Vidovic and together with Mr. John Jones, I appear on behalf of

9 Mr. Naser Oric. With us this morning are our legal assistant,

10 Ms. Adisa Mehic and our CaseMap manager Mr. Geoff Roberts.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Madam Vidovic, and my apologies to you,

12 having had to repeat your -- so any preliminaries on your part? Yes,

13 Mr. Wubben?

14 MR. WUBBEN: Yes, Your Honour. Last Friday, you requested the

15 Prosecution with a view to the forensic examination, our position.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, exactly.

17 MR. WUBBEN: We indeed had contract with the Defence team and it

18 was with a view to the e-mail by the CaseMap manager of the 29th of

19 September. In that e-mail there was a position expressed with regard to

20 the number of documents and details of the number of documents, and also a

21 position regarding the custody and the responsibility in that respect.

22 Our position is, and after my contact with the Defence will remain, that

23 this is not -- this e-mail from the CaseMap manager is not an official and

24 formal request as requested by this Trial Chamber in an earlier stage, and

25 still remaining are some questions like what sort of examination, what

Page 11733

1 methods of examination, what is the time frame of the examination, and

2 what is the location, together with - that's not the least of all - the

3 safeguard procedures that should be included.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Madam Vidovic, I think we can cut this

5 short.

6 I had thought in the first place of getting you together round the

7 table to speed this up with the least formality possible at this stage and

8 then we would formalise everything ourselves. It seems this has not gone

9 down well in the digestive system of the Prosecution so what I would

10 suggest is that you formalise is by means of a proper motion and then we

11 will deal with it accordingly.

12 MR. JONES: Yes, Your Honour. I think there might have been a

13 misunderstanding somewhere along the line because, as I recall - I was

14 just trying to find the part of the transcript - the last development was

15 that we were not going to submit a motion until there was a registry

16 protocol and Your Honour had indicated in order for the Registry to

17 complete that protocol you needed from us just simply information, not any

18 formal, official filing as to which documents we required and where they

19 were being held and that was obviously our communication.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: You're 100 per cent right, Mr. Jones, there's no

21 question about it but you know how things happen sometimes and the

22 situation has now taken a little bit of a turning. So what I would

23 suggest is we do it the other way around, that you formalise it by means

24 of a proper motion, then we'll come back to you as soon as we have a

25 feedback from the Registry, and you will have an opportunity to discuss it

Page 11734

1 very briefly here, exchange views after the motion.

2 MR. JONES: Yes, that's fine with us, just so you know we

3 weren't -- by sending an e-mail --

4 JUDGE AGIUS: That's what I thought as well. I mean, I was trying

5 to have it as informal as possible in the first stages but we will have to

6 formalise it now. So I trust you will -- and please do take into account

7 what Mr. Wubben's concerns seems to be. In other words, some points that

8 he has raised may become important because it's -- if they are going to be

9 made to release original documents, which are not yet in the records of

10 the case, and which are the property of the Prosecution, they may have an

11 interest in making sure that any forensic examination does not contaminate

12 those documents, does not ruin them or whatever. So we are speaking the

13 same language here and you know exactly that -- what has been raised by

14 Mr. Wubben is very valid. So please do take that into account and we will

15 do the rest. But let's try to speed it up as much as we can because these

16 tests, from experience I can tell you, we are talking of over three -- 30

17 documents and this takes time.

18 MR. JONES: Yes, it will be in the next day or two we'll file

19 that.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

21 Yes. Now we have this -- any other preliminaries, by the way?

22 Yes, Madam Vidovic?

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. It concerns our

24 appeal that the protective measures for this witness be varied. Namely, I

25 spoke with this witness for the first time upon his arrival in The Hague.

Page 11735

1 Concerning this witness, the face distortion has already been awarded but

2 conversing with him I realised there was some additional facts in

3 question, namely his mother, who is 80 years old, lives in Glogova. She

4 survived the Glogova massacre on the 9th of May of 1992. A brother of his

5 lives there with his entire family as well, as well as his -- the

6 brother's spouse and children. And he intended to testify on that matter,

7 something that wasn't heard of before, something that wasn't mentioned,

8 and there is also the spouse of his late brother who was killed, who was a

9 local commander, and she is constantly exposed to threats and maltreatment

10 by the Serbs as well as the child. When I asked him about their problems,

11 he said that people knock on their doors in the middle of the night, that

12 they sent messages in the sense of that they will be killed, and when I

13 asked him to provide a document, I asked him if he reported there to the

14 police, he said we didn't go to the police. My mother didn't do that,

15 because they saw the people who participated and organised the events of

16 the 9th of May when about 60 people were killed. Out of those people, two

17 work with the Bratunac police. Those two, plus some other people, who are

18 of key importance for the events in May, June and July of 1992, are the

19 people that he is supposed to be testifying about, and they are either

20 employed by the police or holding key positions in Bratunac.

21 I just wanted to let you know that it would be in our best

22 interests to hear his testimony in public because it clarifies the entire

23 situation at the time, but should we do that, his entire family would be

24 put in danger, his old mother as well as his late brother's spouse, their

25 children, as well as his life would be put in danger in a far graver

Page 11736

1 situation and that there is an objective risk as to their safety not only

2 because he was supposed to testify about the circumstances of his -- the

3 events involving his brother but also because of the people who have

4 positions in Bratunac even nowadays with the police in Bratunac. That's

5 why I wanted to ask for a pseudonym for this witness in addition of the

6 face distortion that was granted.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Who will respond to that on the Prosecution side?

8 MR. WUBBEN: I requested that Ms. Patricia Sellers do.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, thank you. Ms. Sellers, good morning to you.

10 MS. SELLERS: Good morning, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you have -- do you have a reaction to this?

12 MS. SELLERS: Yes, Your Honour, first of all we would object to

13 adding on additional witness protection measures for this witness. We

14 believe that this issue has been litigated now on three different

15 occasions. The information that Madam Vidovic is saying that has just

16 come to her basically appears to be a -- types of either threats that seem

17 unrelated to his testifying at this Tribunal. This might be something

18 that is happening because of merely who he is. The Prosecution has

19 already said that, yes, if the relationship between this witness and a

20 local commander whose name comes up repeatedly, if that is what poses the

21 danger, that the fact of that relationship be kept in private session, but

22 the fact that this person is known in the area, is the brother of a local

23 commander, I do not understand how the anonymity will necessarily even

24 achieve the purposes that the Defence counsel has set forward. He will

25 have to speak about the events, he's going to speak about the

Page 11737

1 relationship, he'll speak about persons, and in the local commander has

2 been the subject of repeated testimony before Your Honours. I do not

3 understand at this point that the witness protection that they are asking

4 for would in any way protect him from acts that have already happened or

5 in any way should alter the decisions that is Your Honour have reached on

6 three different occasions.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go in private session for a minute or so. Let

8 me say something in private session.

9 [Private session]

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 [Open session]

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, perhaps I was

17 misunderstood by the Prosecutor. I just said that he was going to testify

18 not only as to the role of the local commander but also as to the role of

19 the Serbs who are currently highly positioned in Bratunac and in

20 particular with the Bratunac police, and that this is our gravest concern

21 as well as his.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Let's go into private session for a

23 while.

24 [Private session]

25 (redacted)

Page 11738











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Page 11739

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23 [Open session]

24 JUDGE AGIUS: I would imagine we won't be long outside, maybe a

25 couple of minutes. In the meantime I would suggest that Madam Registrar,

Page 11740

1 you ask the usher to draw the curtains down and bring the witness in and,

2 as soon as we start, we need to start in private session straight away.

3 All right? Thank you.

4 --- Break taken at 9.39 a.m.

5 [The witness entered court]

6 --- Upon commencing at 9.42 a.m.

7 [Private session]

8 (redacted)

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Page 11741











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Page 11749

1 (redacted)

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14 [Open session]

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Now, let me give you -- make a recommendation to

16 both of you, Madam Vidovic and the witness. Please try -- since you speak

17 the same language, please try to make a pause between question and answer,

18 because otherwise Madam Vidovic knows exactly what I am -- what this is

19 all about, because what you are saying is being translated, interpreted,

20 to us in English and to others in French, and the interpreters have a

21 very, very difficult job. And to be able to catch up with you, you need

22 to speak slowly and allow this short interval of time between question and

23 answer. Otherwise, I will start receiving messages from the interpreters'

24 booths and I must say that they are always justified in their complaints.

25 I know how difficult their job is.

Page 11750

1 Yes, Madam Vidovic.

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would now like to

3 ask the usher to place a map in front of the witness. That is a map that

4 we have used before. It was printed by the military geographic institute

5 in 1967.

6 Q. I would like to ask the witness, as is usual, to indicate some

7 places on the map that he's going to be talking about. I hope that the

8 witness has a pen.

9 Q. Witness, please, could you show the Trial Chamber where Bratunac

10 is on the map? On the map.

11 A. Bratunac is here.

12 Q. Could you please underline that place? Could you please mark

13 Bratunac?

14 A. [Marks]

15 Q. Thank you. Now I would like to you point out Kravica for the

16 Trial Chamber.

17 A. [Indicates]

18 Q. Kravica. And now could you please indicate your place of birth,

19 the village where you were born, Glogova? Please, Witness, before the

20 war, did Bratunac have a majority Muslim population?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Before the war, was Kravica a purely Serb village or not,

23 including all of its hamlets?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And Glogova?

Page 11751

1 A. Glogova, except for three Serb houses, was actually entirely

2 Muslim.

3 Q. Muslims lived in Glogova, is that right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Could you please indicate Konjevic Polje now for the Trial

6 Chamber?

7 A. [Indicates]

8 Q. What was the makeup of the population of Konjevic Polje before the

9 war?

10 A. The Muslims lived in Konjevic Polje.

11 Q. Could you please now show the Trial Chamber the road from Bratunac

12 to Kravica?

13 A. [Marks]

14 Q. Is it correct that the road passes through Glogova itself?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Could you describe to the Trial Chamber the size of Glogova, how

17 long is it along the asphalt road and how wide is it?

18 A. Glogova spreads over 3 kilometres along the asphalt road and is

19 five kilometres wide.

20 Q. So it stretches for three kilometres along the asphalt road, did I

21 understand you correctly?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And it is five kilometres wide?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Could you now indicate on the map where the borders of Glogova

Page 11752












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Page 11753

1 are? And you can start from Kozjak.

2 A. [Marks]

3 Q. Could you please show Bandera? You've already underlined it.

4 Can you point out the village of Halilovici?

5 A. [Marks]

6 Q. Could you please point out the village of Adzici?

7 A. [Marks]

8 Q. And is it correct that Avdagina Njive is in the village of Adzici?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Since it is not indicated on the map, could you please write AV in

11 the place where you think Avdagina Njive is?

12 A. [Marks]

13 Q. And actually -- but it doesn't matter. These places that you

14 indicated, are all of these places part of the Glogova local commune,

15 actually which were part of the Glogova local commune before the war or

16 within the Glogova region?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. What you have indicated just now, that's the area towards Konjevic

19 Polje and Kravica, am I correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Could you now indicate the hamlet of Mocila for the Trial Chamber?

22 A. [Marks]

23 Q. Is Mocila a Muslim hamlet or not?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Before the war, was that also part of the Glogova local commune?

Page 11754

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Could you now point out to the Trial Chamber Donji Magasici?

3 A. [Marks].

4 Q. Donji Magasici? And now could you please tell the Trial Chamber,

5 before the war, was Donji Magasici inhabited by Serbs or Muslims?

6 A. Donji Magasici was inhabited by Muslims.

7 Q. Could you now please show us the village of Drmna?

8 A. [Marks].

9 Q. Is the village of Drmna -- the village of Drmna, was it a Serb or

10 a Muslim village before the war?

11 A. It was a Serb village.

12 Q. Could you now point out Pajici on the map?

13 A. [Marks]

14 Q. Before the war, was Pajici a Serb or a Muslim village?

15 A. Pajici was a Serb village.

16 Q. Could you now point out Hranca and Repovac for the Trial Chamber?

17 A. [Marks]

18 Q. What was the ethnic composition of Hranca and Repovac before the

19 war?

20 A. Hranca was populated both by Serbs and Muslims but over 50 per

21 cent of the inhabitants were Muslims.

22 Q. And Repovac?

23 A. Repovac was about 50, 50.

24 Q. Half Serbs, half Muslims; is that correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 11755

1 Q. Could you now please initial the corner of this map?

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] And now, Your Honours I would like

3 this map to be given an exhibit number.

4 Witness, you can initial the map somewhere in the corner and also

5 you can keep it in front of you because we will be using it throughout

6 your testimony.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. D7 --

8 THE REGISTRAR: D793, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: One other thing, because the witness marked Ranca on

10 the map and I know that there is another place called Hranca, no? And in

11 the transcript all the way it's being shown as Hranca when I think we are

12 talking of Ranca and not Hranca, is that correct? Or am I wrong?

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, let me clarify. That

14 place is called Hranca by the Muslims and the Serbs call it Ranca but it's

15 actually the same place.

16 Q. Am I right, witness?

17 A. Yes.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. That explains everything. All right.

19 Yes. This map is being tendered and received and marked as

20 Defence Exhibit D793 and it is being initialed by the witness.

21 Yes, go ahead. And thank you for the clarification, Ms. Vidovic,

22 please. Thank you.

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation].

24 Q. Witness, you grew up in Glogova?

25 A. Yes.

Page 11756

1 Q. How many inhabitants were there in Glogova before the war?

2 A. Glogova had about 2.000 inhabitants.

3 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber whether or not the population of

4 Glogova felt safe and secure before the war in 1992, when they were

5 passing through Kravica or staying in Kravica?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Why? Why not?

8 A. The inhabitants of Kravica always hated the inhabitants of Glogova

9 and they always created incidents on the road.

10 Q. Why did they hate them? Did that have anything to do with

11 ethnicity, faith, or something else?

12 A. Mostly it was a question of ethnicity.

13 Q. Do you remember, Witness, any incident that happened in September

14 1991? If it happened, and if you recall, could you please tell us?

15 A. Yes. I remember the -- this incident.

16 Q. What happened?

17 A. Two young men were killed in the incident; one of them was Fora

18 and the other one was Siptar. And Mevludin Sinanovic from Glogova was

19 injured.

20 Q. Could you please tell us where the incident happened and who were

21 these young men who were killed?

22 A. The incident happened in Kajici.

23 Q. Is Kajici a part of Kravica?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. What was the ethnicity of those people who were killed?

Page 11757

1 A. The people who were killed were Muslims.

2 Q. After this event onwards, did Muslims spend any time in Kravica at

3 all?

4 A. Muslims did not spend any time in Kravica, especially not at

5 night. They only passed along the road during the day.

6 Q. Thank you. Do you remember, in 1991, any reports about the war in

7 Croatia?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Do you remember whether at that time in your area you began seeing

10 armed, uniformed people?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Who were those people?

13 A. I used to see those people in columns with armoured personnel

14 carriers and civilian vehicles and they would take the road, Bratunac and

15 Kravica, and the other way around.

16 Q. Can you remember whether those were local Serbs or Serbs from some

17 other areas, if you can remember? We are still discussing the pre-war

18 period.

19 A. Yes. I can remember. Those people were from Kravica, Jezestica,

20 and some other places.

21 Q. Do you remember whether the frequency of the movement of the

22 vehicles was higher in 1992, in the first few months of 1992, on that road

23 between Bratunac and Kravica?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. What did you see then? What was moving on the road?

Page 11758

1 A. They used the road daily and there were people on the APCs, armed

2 people, and when the APCs returned from Kravica, there were no people on

3 top of them.

4 Q. Do you remember whether, in April of 1992, on that road -- pardon

5 me, before I ask that question, I wanted to ask you the following: Does

6 that road pass close to your house?

7 A. Yes. The road that goes through Glogova is about a hundred metres

8 away from my house.

9 Q. In the second part of April of 1992, did you see some barricades

10 on the road?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Where?

13 A. They were in Repovac, Hranca and Kravica.

14 Q. As concerns the village of Jezestica, did you ever any knowledge

15 as to what was happening there?

16 A. Yes. There was a barricade there as well, in Kajici, and that was

17 the road towards Jezestica. That's where the barricade was.

18 Q. Could you explain to the Chamber what those barricades or road

19 blocks looked like?

20 A. They were manned by the Serb police armed with automatic and

21 semi-automatic rifles.

22 Q. Can you tell us until when Muslims could use that road?

23 A. Muslims used that road up until the 8th of May 1992.

24 Q. That particular road?

25 A. Yes.

Page 11759

1 Q. Witness, during 1992, did you know of the existence and the

2 activities of the SDS?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Did you ever hear of a name of Miroslav Deronjic?

5 A. Yes. Miroslav Deronjic was the SDS Bratunac president, as well as

6 the Crisis Staff president for Bratunac.

7 Q. Did you know Mr. Deronjic? And if so, how?

8 A. Yes. I knew Miroslav Deronjic. He was from Magasici and he used

9 the Glogova road often. He would stop by and he often took the old road

10 towards Magasici.

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could we now move to

12 private session for a brief period.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, let's go into private session for a while,

14 thank you.

15 [Private session]

16 (redacted)

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Page 11760

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6 [Open session]

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Did you hear or see or learn of anything that happened on the 17th

9 of April of 1992 in Bratunac?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. What did you see or hear?

12 A. I was in Bratunac that day. I saw armed people and they were the

13 Arkan's men, as well as some local Serbs from Kravica, Jezestica,

14 Bratunac.

15 Q. Thank you. Did you have any problems returning home to Glogova

16 that day?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. What sort of problems?

19 A. The very same police stopped me. I was driving a van. They

20 stopped me in Repovac and again they searched the vehicle looking for

21 weapons and they harassed me, provoked me.

22 Q. All right. At the end of April of 1992, do you remember whether

23 the Muslims from Glogova received an invitation from the Serbs to attend a

24 certain meeting? Do you know anything about that?

25 A. Yes. I remember that.

Page 11761

1 Q. How did you learn of that?

2 A. We learned it from Nezir Ibisevic who was the Glogova local

3 commune president.

4 Q. What did Mr. Ibisevic tell you?

5 A. He told us he attended a meeting with Serbs and that he told him

6 to pass on a message to the Glogova inhabitants, that they should turn

7 over their weapons.

8 Q. In the sense of possession of any weapons, what did you have in

9 Glogova?

10 A. It is located in a mountainous terrain. There were a number of

11 hunters there, and the rifles that they had were hunting rifles.

12 Q. What was the reaction of the Muslim population concerning the

13 request by -- made by the Serbs?

14 A. Some people, the elderly, wanted to give away their weapons, but

15 younger men didn't want to. So people were quite disturbed.

16 Q. What happened after the 17th of April in Glogova?

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could we now briefly

18 move into private session again?

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go into private session for a while, please.

20 [Private session]

21 (redacted)

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Page 11764

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16 [Open session]

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. So did they issue a particular ultimatum on that day to the people

19 of Glogova?

20 A. Yes. They set the deadline for the 27th of April. The ultimatum

21 was for the handing over of weapons.

22 Q. What happened afterwards on that day?

23 A. Those people came to Glogova in front of the school. Some people

24 who knew of the ultimatum had already brought their weapons and they

25 handed them over. Some people didn't, though.

Page 11765

1 Q. Can you remember who didn't hand over their weapons or, rather,

2 people from what locations didn't do that?

3 A. People from Velika Glogova, which is a bit further away from the

4 asphalt road as well as the people from Vladusici.

5 Q. So they didn't is hand over their weapons?

6 A. They didn't.

7 Q. As for the remainder of the population of Glogova and the

8 surrounding villages, did they hand over their weapons?

9 A. Yes, they did. I remember that they were issued with receipts

10 from the policemen, and the policemen took those weapons away.

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, perhaps we can now have

12 a break.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. But before we break, Judge Eser has a

14 question.

15 JUDGE ESER: Just a geographical question. We have learned that

16 Glogova is a place and a broad area of Glogova. Now when you talk about

17 the school of Glogova, in which place is it located? If you take a look

18 to the map, is the school in the area where we have stated Glogova and

19 somewhere else?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The school in Glogova is located in

21 Glogova itself, next to the asphalt road, perhaps 30 metres away. And the

22 mosque is there as well as the building of the local commune.

23 JUDGE ESER: So when you speak of Glogova, you are referring to

24 the place which is stated in the map with -- indicated with Glogova; is

25 that correct? If you look to the map, you see Glogova along the road.

Page 11766

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. The entire area that I marked

2 is the local commune of Glogova, together with its hamlets.

3 JUDGE ESER: But if you speak of the school located in Glogova, it

4 is located at the spot which is listed in the map as Glogova? There is a

5 name Glogova in the map here.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

7 JUDGE ESER: When -- you have told us that Glogova has 2.000

8 inhabitants, are you now referring only to this place where we can read

9 Glogova or when you speak of 2.000 inhabitants, does it also include the

10 surrounding villages like Adzici and Halilovici and so on?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. All together it has 2.000

12 people. Halilovici, Glagosici, Velika Glogova.

13 JUDGE ESER: How many inhabitants would have the place, the centre

14 place of Glogova?

15 JUDGE AGIUS: In other words, Glogova village itself, what was the

16 number of inhabitants of that -- of that village?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is what I marked on the map.

18 This was the entire local commune of Glogova. It was called Glogova,

19 except that we have the hamlets of Halilovici, Glagosici. Those are

20 hamlets belonging to the local commune of Glogova. So for us this was all

21 Glogova.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you mind, Judge Eser? But there was amongst in

23 this commune itself which was called Glogova, there was also a village

24 which was called Glogova. Is that correct or not?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

Page 11767

1 JUDGE AGIUS: And what was the population of the village called

2 Glogova before the war?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe more than half of the

4 population. It was a densely populated location, especially alongside the

5 asphalt road, the three kilometres along the road. It was densely

6 populated.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: But the village itself, what was the population of

8 the village called Glogova?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe around 1.000.


11 Let's have a 30-minute break and we will continue immediately

12 after.

13 --- Recess taken at 10.35 a.m.

14 --- On resuming at 11.09 a.m.

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you want to have this part redacted? Let's

19 prepare a redaction for this part.

20 You're not objecting to this, I take it, Ms. Sellers, or

21 Ms. Richardson? I don't know who is --

22 MS. RICHARDSON: Good morning, Your Honour, Your Honours. I have

23 no objection except I would only ask if in fact that you're requiring that

24 the Prosecution also refrain from using the name --

25 JUDGE AGIUS: I said I was not requiring it. I was just

Page 11768

1 suggesting very specifically I cannot -- I know that I cannot ask you to

2 refrain from doing it.

3 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you. That's the only clarification I

4 sought. Thank you.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: I just suggested perhaps you could consider that

6 option but it's up to you, obviously. I mean, I cannot stop you.

7 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, we'll have that redacted, if you prepare it for

9 me, and let's go ahead.

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: I have made that mistake myself several -- on

12 several occasions so don't worry about it, Ms. Vidovic.

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Before the break, we were discussing the events of May. Can you

15 remember what took place in Glogova on the 9th of May of 1992? Early in

16 the morning.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Could you explain for the Trial Chamber briefly what happened?

19 A. Yes. Early in the morning, on the 9th of May 1992, I was awakened

20 by my mother. I was sleeping in my house. And she woke me up because she

21 heard a lot of noise and that was the noise from the APCs and tanks and

22 she told me, "Run away." I put on my clothes and I started towards Brdo.

23 I found my brothers there, as well as some neighbours. Shortly after, the

24 shooting began, and we fled in various directions. Together with my

25 brothers, I left in the direction of some rocks where we hid.

Page 11769

1 Q. Could you see the events in Glogova from the place you were at?

2 A. We couldn't see Glogova itself and what was happening there.

3 Q. Could you see some people from that place that you were at?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Just a moment, Witness. If you intend to mention the names of

6 those people --

7 A. Yes.

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could we move into

9 private session, please?

10 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Let's move into private session for a

11 while.

12 [Private session]

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 [Open session]

24 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session, Ms. Vidovic.

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 11770

1 Q. You said that those people were moving down towards the market in

2 Glogova. Did you return to Glogova either that day or during the night,

3 you personally?

4 A. We -- yes, we returned to Glogova.

5 Q. What did you see there?

6 A. When we returned, most of the village or rather most of the houses

7 were on fire, and there was a foul smell. We headed down towards the

8 fields to see what was happening with our families and when we approached

9 our houses we saw dead people, our neighbours. And amongst them was

10 Nurija Rizvanovic, Seco Ibisevic, his wife Zlatija, and Avid Junuzovic and

11 we found our mother there as well. But she was just unconscious, but

12 alive.

13 Q. Your mother survived the 9th of May 1992. Did you talk to her

14 about what happened?

15 A. Yes. She saw the killing of Nurija Rizvanovic and she tried to

16 run away and that's probably when she fainted. She was lying there for a

17 few hours.

18 Q. You don't need to mention any names now. Just tell us, what did

19 your mother say? Where were the people who committed the killings from,

20 the people who had killed the Muslims that you mentioned?

21 A. She saw some people and she knew some of them. They were from

22 Kravica, Jezestica, and the surrounding settlements, and she knew some of

23 them.

24 Q. All right. Very well. Did you personally see anything that day?

25 A. Yes. On that day, I did see something. We also went towards the

Page 11771

1 shopping centre to see what was going on that day. On the road, we met

2 Seco Delic, who had escaped from the execution. He was wounded.

3 Q. Did you talk to him?

4 A. Yes, we talked to Seco. He told us what happened that day at or

5 near Dzafo's house where he escaped from, where the execution was taking

6 place. He told us how they separated the men and took them to the river

7 in groups and that's where they were executing them. That's where they

8 killed them. On that day, about 60 people from Glogova were killed.

9 Q. Did he tell you anything specific about Mustafa Ibisevic?

10 A. Yes. He told us about a really awful event that happened in

11 Glogova that day. He told us that -- something about Ibisevic, Mustafa

12 and his two sons. They captured them and brought them there for the

13 execution. He hugged his two sons. It's very difficult for me to tell

14 this story because I get very upset. He was asking the Serbs to kill him

15 and to let his sons go. They didn't. They first killed one son and

16 watched him suffer. Then they killed the other son, and then after that,

17 they killed him as well. And when we found the dead, we found him

18 embracing his two sons and lying near the river.

19 Q. Did you see -- you personally -- did you see the bodies of other

20 Muslims who were killed that day?

21 A. Yes. I saw the bodies of other Muslims who were killed that day.

22 Q. How many bodies?

23 A. I've already said it was about 60 bodies in an area about some 20

24 square metres.

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we now move into

Page 11772

1 private session for a few moments, please?

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, let's go into private session for a while.

3 [Private session]

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 11773











11 Pages 11773-11789 redacted. Private session.















Page 11790

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 [Open session]

14 JUDGE AGIUS: And this map -- this map is being received and

15 marked as Defence Exhibit D797. Could you initial it or sign your name,

16 please, on it, Witness?

17 THE WITNESS: [Marks]

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Witness, were you able to move about the area near Cizmici in May

20 and June 1992?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. You explained to the Chamber already that the Muslims surrendered

23 their weapons by the end of April 1992. I wanted to ask you the

24 following: After that, did you obtain some weapons subsequently?

25 A. Yes.

Page 11791

1 Q. Where did you get it from?

2 A. We had some hunting rifles, the ones that were not handed over by

3 some of the hunters. We also had some makeshift weapons.

4 Q. When you say the hunters that didn't hand over their weapons, do

5 you have in mind the villages you mentioned Velika Glogova and Vladusici,

6 am I correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. You mentioned that you produced your own weapons. How, if you can

9 explain?

10 A. There were some people, craftsmen, who knew how to do that and

11 they would take some barrels and they produced guns. We called them

12 Kuburas.

13 Q. In the area you indicated just a while ago on the map, from Velika

14 Glogova, across Vladusici Halilovici, Adzici, and Momcila, as well as

15 Cizmici. In that area were there several groups who possessed such

16 weapons as you described?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Where were those armed groups?

19 A. We had four such groups in Velika Glogova -- can I make use of the

20 map?

21 Q. Yes, of course.

22 A. Velika Glogova, Vladusici, in the woods in between, as well as in.

23 Cizmici, there was a group there too.

24 Q. Thank you.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: For the record, the witness is referring to the map

Page 11792

1 Exhibit number D797.

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if we could move

3 briefly into private session, please.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go into private session for a while. Thank

5 you.

6 [Private session]

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 [Open session]

23 JUDGE AGIUS: We are back in open session.

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Did you receive any orders that he be appointed as the group

Page 11793

1 leader? Did you receive it from anyone?

2 A. No.

3 Q. You described somewhat these armed groups for us. Could you tell

4 us whether they were always accompanied by many civilians?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Could you tell the Chamber how many people there were in the area

7 of Velika Glogova? And I mean civilians who were unarmed.

8 A. About 1.000 people, 1.000 civilians.

9 Q. Were those only people from Glogova or some others as well?

10 A. No. Not only from Glogova. Also from Hranca, Suha, Potcaus and

11 other locations from the Bratunac municipality.

12 Q. Were they also Muslims who were expelled?

13 A. Yes. They were all Muslims.

14 Q. The people you described being in Velika Glogova, did they have

15 any sort of accommodation?

16 A. No, no accommodation. They were in the woods and out in the open

17 as well.

18 Q. Can you tell me what was there in Cizmici? Were there a lot of

19 refugees there as well?

20 A. Yes. The same was in Cizmici, a lot of civilians.

21 Q. You saw the houses in Cizmici. Can you tell me in May, June,

22 July, and August of 1992, how many people resided approximately in each of

23 the houses in Cizmici?

24 A. I remember that. In Cizmici, there were 60, 80, 90. In any case

25 the houses were full of civilians.

Page 11794

1 Q. Could you explain it to the Chamber, the houses in Eastern Bosnia,

2 are they large or small?

3 A. Those were largely one-storey houses.

4 Q. Were they large?

5 A. Yes, rather large.

6 Q. How many of you members of the armed groups did actually have

7 weapons or, rather, how many weapons did each of the groups have?

8 A. Each of the groups may have had about ten hunting rifles and some

9 homemade rifles.

10 Q. You explained that you were together with the large number of

11 refugees in Glogova. Were you together with the refugees or in front of

12 them or behind them?

13 A. We were in front of them. Further up ahead into the mountain or

14 the hill.

15 Q. How far ahead?

16 A. About one kilometre ahead.

17 Q. Were you close to the Serb lines?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. After the 9th of May 1992, could the Muslim refugees live

20 peacefully in whatever conditions they had? But could they live in peace?

21 A. No. There were attacks on a daily basis. There was shelling as

22 well as infantry attacks.

23 Q. Could you remember what happened on the 1st and the 2nd of June

24 1992, if anything?

25 A. Yes, I remember.

Page 11795

1 Q. Could you explain for the Chamber?

2 A. We were attacked fiercely on the 1st and the 2nd, and the fighting

3 was difficult.

4 Q. Did they attack only those of you who were armed or did they

5 attack the civilians as well?

6 A. They attacked all of us who were there.

7 Q. What was the atmosphere? What was the situation with the

8 refugees?

9 A. You can imagine the situation. There was -- there were 1.000

10 people there, women, children, and there was panic. It is difficult to

11 explain.

12 Q. Were there casualties on both sides, the Serb and on your side

13 during that fighting?

14 A. Yes, there were casualties on both sides.

15 Q. After the attacks of the 1st and the 2nd of June, did you move

16 about the area?

17 A. Yes. We did.

18 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, sorry to interrupt the testimony of

19 the witness, but perhaps we can find out exactly where this attack took

20 place, unless the witness has said it and I may have not heard, but there

21 is a description of the attack. Could we have a location?

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Vidovic? You can put the question.

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I will ask that question but I

24 think it was mentioned already.

25 Q. Could you tell us, Witness, where were you attacked on those two

Page 11796












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 11797

1 days?

2 A. In Velika Glogova, Vladusici, and Adzici.

3 Q. I thought you did mention the first two. So now we want to add

4 Adzici?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Can you tell us what was the direction of those attacks?

7 A. I told you from Velika Glogova, Vladusici --

8 Q. No, no, I mean from what direction?

9 A. From the direction of Kravica, Jezestica, and the surrounding

10 locations.

11 Q. I asked you whether you moved about the area that was included in

12 the fighting.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Did you come across some corpses?

15 A. Yes, we did.

16 Q. The people you found, were they dressed in uniforms?

17 A. Yes. They have -- they had camouflage uniforms.

18 Q. How many of such corpses did you find?

19 A. Four or five. I can't be precise.

20 Q. Did you find any weapons alongside those bodies?

21 A. Yes. There were some automatic rifles, some semi-automatic

22 rifles, and a pair of binoculars, military binoculars.

23 Q. Thank you. Perhaps a further clarification. The corpses you

24 mentioned, were they Serb or Muslim corpses?

25 A. The people we found were Serbs, and we knew of our casualties.

Page 11798

1 Q. Okay. We will get to that too, but -- so we were talking about

2 Serb corpses.

3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would kindly ask the you shall

4 tore put a Drina Corps Command document before the witness. This is the

5 list of the wounded and killed in Glogova, the number is 04544250 and

6 04544252.

7 Your Honours, we had a similar document before but this is a

8 different one, from a different archive.

9 Q. Witness, please take a look at the first page of the document

10 bearing number 04544250. Please take a look at the name under number 22.

11 Miodrag Jokic from Opravdici, and number 26, Radomir Milosevic of Kravica.

12 First and foremost, witness, I wanted to ask you this: Opravdici, is that

13 a hamlet of Kravica?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Did you know either of the two people?

16 A. I knew Milosevic, Radomir.

17 Q. Can you remember whether you saw his body on that occasion?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Was there anything next to the body?

20 A. Yes. We found an automatic rifle, the pair of binoculars, and his

21 documents.

22 Q. Based on the documents you found, on top of the fact that you

23 knew, those people, were you able to establish where they came from?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Where were they from?

Page 11799

1 A. From Kravica.

2 Q. What sort of uniform did, for example, Rasim Milosevic wear?

3 A. A camouflage uniform.

4 Q. Please take a look at the next page of the document. It says "the

5 list of wounded in Glogova." The name under number 23, Milos Milanovic,

6 then number 49, and the name there, Miladin Savic. Please take a look at

7 the dates of wounding of those people, the 2nd of June 1992 in Glogova.

8 My question is the following: Can you remember what was the main

9 direction of the attack of the 2nd of June of 1992? Can you remember

10 that?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. From where?

13 A. From the area of Polom, Kravica, and Jezestica.

14 Q. To go back to the map that is next to you, could you please show

15 where Polom is?

16 A. [Marks]

17 Q. Thank you, Witness.

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness retain this

19 document with him because we will go back to it later, but I would kindly

20 ask for an exhibit number for it.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. This document, Madam Vidovic, will become

22 Defence Exhibit D798.

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. You said that the Serbs attacked from the area of Kravica on the

25 1st and 2nd of June 1992. Concerning there particular attack, do you

Page 11800

1 remember anything that happened with a certain boy?

2 A. Yes. I remember the case very well.

3 Q. Could you please explain that for the Chamber.

4 A. It was in Velika Glogova, that was the direction of their attack.

5 I remember there was one wounded, Mevludin Hasanovic. He was a boy, still

6 under age. He was wounded and he was in Abramovic's house. They passed

7 by the house, and Drago, a.k.a. Takac, headed that column, and they burned

8 him alive in that house.

9 Q. Witness, don't mention the name of the person who told you that,

10 but just explain to us who witnessed the event.

11 A. My brother witnessed it.

12 Q. All right. At the same time, did you hear of anything happening

13 in Adzici?

14 A. Yes, we did.

15 Q. What did you hear?

16 A. A person, a man, came from Adzici, and he said that 12 people were

17 executed on that day, the elderly and women and men, and they were unable

18 to flee or walk.

19 Q. Did you see their bodies later on?

20 A. Yes. We went there. We saw that they executed them and threw

21 their bodies into the creek.

22 Q. Did the Serb attacks continue throughout June 1992?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. How often were those -- did those attacks occur?

25 A. Almost daily. Always from artillery and then with the infantry

Page 11801

1 came. First there would be shelling and then the infantry would move in.

2 Q. Can you remember the direction of those attacks, when we talk

3 about Velika Glogova and Vladusici?

4 A. I said that already, from the direction of Polom.

5 Q. No, no, Witness. Perhaps I was imprecise. The artillery attacks

6 against Velika Glogova and Vladusici, what was their direction?

7 A. The attacks were from the direction of Brezak, Avdagina Njive, and

8 Kravica.

9 Q. Did you have any knowledge as to the simultaneous shelling of

10 Cizmici at that time?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Where was Cizmici shelled from?

13 A. From Vresinje and Jezestica.

14 Q. Witness, how come you know that the shelling was from those

15 precise locations?

16 A. We had some guys who passed by those lines, because they were

17 simply not afraid. They wanted to go and see what was happening. And

18 then they would pass on such information.

19 Q. Did I understand properly that the people who went there saw that,

20 they saw the deployment of the artillery?

21 A. Yes, they saw the artillery there.

22 Q. You said -- you mentioned the pair of binoculars a while ago. Did

23 they have anything with them?

24 A. Yes, they had that pair of binoculars as well as a hunting pair of

25 binoculars.

Page 11802

1 Q. Thank you. The artillery shelling that you mention, in the course

2 of July 1992, were there any casualties in Velika Glogova or Cizmici?

3 A. Yes. We did have casualties.

4 Q. Were these casualties civilians?

5 A. Mostly everybody, civilians and also there were some from amongst

6 the groups.

7 Q. Very well.

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the usher now show the witness

9 another document? This is Defence Exhibit D15. Titled,"Circumstances in

10 Bosnia and Herzegovina before -- or the situation in Bosnia and

11 Herzegovina before the war."

12 Q. Witness, could you please look at page 2, which has the number

13 00641760, and beneath -- below that I'm going to read a part of it.

14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, perhaps we can move to

15 private session for a moment because another name is going to be

16 mentioned. Could we move to closed -- a private session.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go into private session for a while.

18 [Private session]

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 11803











11 Page 11803 redacted. Private session.















Page 11804

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 [Open session]

16 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session. Thank you, Madam Vidovic.

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18 Q. Witness, Velika Glogova and Vladusici, is that part of the area

19 known as Glogova Planina?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Is that in the Bratunac municipality?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Is there a village called Glogovac in the Bratunac municipality or

24 is there a village called Glogova?

25 A. There is a village called Glogova I've never heard of a village

Page 11805

1 called Glogovac.

2 Q. Do you remember in if in late July 1992, any military activities

3 by Serb forces ensued in the area of Glogova, which was held by you, the

4 Muslims?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Now I would like to ask the usher to show the witness a new

7 document by the Bircani Brigade command. It's document number 04337365.

8 It's a daily operations report to the corps commander.

9 Witness, I'm going to read out a part of item 3 for you, which

10 says, "Having finished the search and established the line, control was

11 established on the Bratunac-Kravica road." Could you please tell me

12 whether on the 27th of July 1992 it's true that some kind of sweep was

13 carried out as it is reflected in this document?

14 A. Yes. There was such an action but it was actually a Serb

15 offensive.

16 Q. Please, how do you comment this part of the document that control

17 was established on the Bratunac-Glogovac [as interpreted] road and our

18 forces were deployed there?

19 A. On that day, when the offensive began, they just passed on the

20 Bratunac-Glogova-Kravica road. Now, however, they deployed more forces.

21 They brought in reinforcements to the Glogova area.

22 Q. Before the 27th of July 1992, did the Serb forces patrol this road

23 and not only passed along it?

24 A. Yes, they both patrolled and used this road.

25 Q. Very well.

Page 11806

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like this

2 document to be given an exhibit number.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. This will become Defence Exhibit D799. Thank

4 you, Madam Vidovic.

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well. Could the witness please

6 answer just one more question, Your Honours, and maybe we could go on a

7 break now because, after that, I'm planning to use a longer document.

8 Q. Witness, is it correct that at the end of July or in early August

9 1992, there were fresh Serb attacks against you and your population in the

10 Glogova area which you held? Is this correct or not?

11 A. Yes, it is.

12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, maybe we can go on our

13 break now.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Certainly, certainly, Madam Vidovic. This is

15 always -- I try to keep it as a matter of convenience of the parties. So

16 we'll go on break now, and it has to be 30 minutes because of the

17 redaction that we did in the initial period.

18 So 30 minutes starting from now. That means we will start at 5

19 minutes to 1.00.

20 --- Recess taken at 12.25 p.m.

21 --- On resuming at 1.00 p.m.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Vidovic.

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation].

24 Q. Witness, my last question was whether or not, in late July and

25 early August 1992, there were fresh attacks against you, and you confirmed

Page 11807












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Page 11808

1 that.

2 Now I would like you to look at document -- a document that I hope

3 is still with you, which is entitled, "the list of those wounded and

4 killed in Glogova."

5 Do you have that document?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Could you please look at this document, the list of those killed

8 in Glogova, on page 1. If you can look at page 19 first, it

9 says, "Rankovic Ilinka [phoen], father's name Radivoje, from Jezestica,

10 killed on the 2nd of August 1992." Then you look at the next number, it

11 says, Deronjic -- number 21, it says, Deronjic, Nebosa killed in -- on the

12 2nd of August 1992.

13 And he comes from Magasici.

14 I would like to ask you the following, this woman from Jezestica,

15 is it unusual for you to have a woman in the ranks of the Serbian army?

16 A. No. This is not unusual.

17 Q. Could you explain to the Trial Chamber why it's not?

18 A. When I met Seco Delic earlier, as I mentioned that before, he

19 talked about two women who were killing those people who excelled in this

20 killing.

21 Q. You say that he told you about two women. Were these women

22 Serbian soldiers?

23 A. Yes, they were Serbian soldiers.

24 Q. Thank you very much. Now I would like to you look at the next

25 page, list of those killed in Glogova, and if you could look at the name

Page 11809

1 under number 3, Vojo -- the list.

2 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction those wounded in

3 Glogova.

4 Q. And the name under 3 is Vojo Abramovic [phoen] from Kravica. He

5 was wounded on the 2nd of August 1992. Then if you look at number 9,

6 Goran Bojic, from Kravica, date of wounding, the 2nd of August, 1992, also

7 look at number 13 -- are you looking at the list of those wounded in

8 Glogova?

9 A. Yes, yes.

10 Q. Number 13, Slavisa Eric from Kravica. Date of wounding, the 28th

11 of July 1992. Please look at number 24, Sadiko Milanovic [phoen] from

12 Kravica, date of wounding, 2nd of August 1992. Please look at numbers 29

13 to number 31, you have Nikolic, Slavko; Nikolic, Milan; Nikolic, Dusko;

14 two of them are from Kajici and the third one is from Kravica. The first

15 two on the list, wounded on the 28th of July 1992, and the third person

16 was wounded on the 2nd of August 1992.

17 Please look at the name Obackic, Stevo from Kravica. We talked

18 about that earlier. Beneath that look at the number at Radovan Pavlovic

19 from Kravica, injured on the -- wounded on the 2nd of August 1992, also in

20 Glogova. Look at number 43, Drago Radovic from Bratunac, wounded on the

21 2nd of August 1992, and finally, if you can look at the names next to

22 number 45 and 46, from Jezestica, both persons wounded in Glogova on the

23 2nd of August 1992.

24 And just for a moment, if you can turn to the next page and look

25 at the name next to number 57, Marko Tomic from Kravica, born on the 28th

Page 11810

1 of July -- excuse me, actually wounded on the 28th of July 1992 in

2 Glogova.

3 Witness, I would like to ask you the following in relation to

4 this. Earlier you looked at a document or an order on sweeping the

5 terrain in Glogova dated the 27th of July 1992. Do you remember that?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. You said that this was an offensive actually?

8 A. Yes, that's correct.

9 Q. I'm going to ask you again, do you know where the attacks on the

10 2nd of August or on the 28th of July 1992 and the 2nd of August 1992 came

11 from, which direction did they come from?

12 A. They came from Kravica and Jezestica, from the broader area of

13 Kravica.

14 Q. Thank you very much. These dates, the 28th of July and the 2nd of

15 August, cited as the dates of wounding of these people in this document,

16 are they actually the dates when there were fierce attacks from those

17 directions on Glogova?

18 A. Yes. You can see from the lists where we were attacked from.

19 Q. And you attacked -- you agreed that you were attacked at that

20 time?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Regarding this document, I would like to ask you the following:

23 If someone were to claim that these people from these lists were wounded

24 in Muslim ambushes and not in Serb attacks or the offensive, as you name

25 it, would that be correct?

Page 11811

1 A. No. They were attacking, they were attacking us in Glogova.

2 These are no ambushes. We were in Glogovac -- in Glogova, and we were

3 being attacked.

4 Q. Whether you say Glogova, I assume that you are thinking of Velika

5 Glogova?

6 A. Yes, yes, Velika Glogova and Vladusici.

7 MS. RICHARDSON: I hate to interrupt but if the Defence would ask

8 the witness -- is asking the witness about people from the list. This is

9 a pretty extensive list and a few minutes ago, we heard Madam Vidovic read

10 out a number of very specific names from the list. So perhaps we can have

11 some clarification as to, is she asking the witness about all the

12 individuals on the list, with respect to that last questions or about the

13 names that she read out? Because I think absent some clarification, it's

14 going to be very confusing.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Fair enough.

16 Your last question to the witness, was the following: Regarding

17 this document -- now, Ms. Richardson, please follow me, "Regarding this

18 document," this is Madam Vidovic's question, "I would like to ask you the

19 following: If someone were to claim that these people from these lists

20 were wounded in Muslim ambushes and not in Serb attacks or the offensive,

21 as you name it, would that be correct?"

22 Now, when she put the question I was taking that she was asking

23 with regard to all the people mentioned in that list, but if that is not

24 the case, then perhaps it's the case of clarifying it. I mean, I don't

25 know what you had in mind but reading the transcript, to me it means all

Page 11812

1 those people in that list. But if the witness may have misunderstood you,

2 maybe, or that's not what you intended, then perhaps you can rephrase your

3 question and the witness will answer it.

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I discussed the dates

5 with the witness. I was talking about the 27th of July 1992 and the 2nd

6 of August 1992. These were the dates, after the document that we looked

7 at earlier and I think that I was completely clear.

8 Q. Witness, please, I would like to clearly ask you the following:

9 If anyone were to claim that the people or that the Serbs that I -- whose

10 names I read out to you from this list were wounded on the 27th of July

11 and the 2nd of August 1992, in Muslim ambushes, would that be correct?

12 A. No.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you both.

14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: That has served to clear up this issue.

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would now like to ask the witness

17 to look at a new document. Could the usher please distribute the

18 document?

19 Q. Witness, could you please look at this document? It's an order by

20 Mile Jovanovic [phoen], detachment commander dated the 4th of August 1992

21 and it has number 0435380 -- 262, and I'm going to quote from item 1 of

22 the document. It states, "On the 4th of August 1992, a sweep of the

23 terrain will be carried out along the axis of Repovac, Mihailici [phoen]

24 Slapasnica, Vitkovici, Polom, towards Kravica, Glogova, Malasici, with the

25 objective of establishing a front line, Vresinje, Bozici, Lemesac, Ladja,

Page 11813

1 Kaolin, Petokraka, Zuti Most."

2 First of all I would like to ask you if you can indicate for the

3 Trial Chamber on the map where Repovac, Mihalovici [phoen], Slapasnica,

4 Vitkovici, and Polom are?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Can you please point that out? Repovac? Perhaps the other one

7 was better, if you think that the other one was better.

8 A. Repovac, Mihaljevici [phoen], Slapasnica, Vitkovici, and Polom.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: For the record, the witness has marked these places

10 on Defence Exhibit D793.

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Witness, I would like to ask you the following: Do you recall the

13 events on the 4th of August 1992 in the part of Glogova that you held?

14 A. Yes, I do.

15 Q. Was the terrain searched in the Glogova section that you held on

16 that day? Can you please describe to the Trial Chamber what happened on

17 the 4th of August 1992?

18 A. Yes. I remember this part where we were attacked by them. The

19 Serb soldiers made a frontal attack, meaning that a soldier from soldier

20 separated some ten metres and they are going forward and sweeping the

21 terrain. On that day, we had to leave the places where we happened to

22 be.

23 Q. In other words, they managed to push you back or cleanse you from

24 that terrain. Could you please tell the Trial Chamber where you were

25 cleansed from? Because you were in different places. Could you be very

Page 11814

1 specific about the places? And you can use any map you like.

2 A. We were swept back from Velika Glogova, Vladusici and from these

3 forests or these woods where these people were.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Ms. Vidovic? Yes, Ms. Richardson?

5 MS. RICHARDSON: The witness has already answered the question but

6 I would only ask Madam Vidovic not to lead too much and perhaps the

7 witness could, in his own words, characterise whether they were pushed

8 back and what was going on following the attack.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Yes, Ms. Vidovic. Go ahead. Have you

10 finished with this document or not yet?

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I have, Your Honour. Could we

12 please give it an exhibit number.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: This document, consisting of two pages, and I'm

14 going to read the ERN because it didn't register correctly in the

15 transcript. ERN number is 04358262, consists of two pages, one in B/C/S,

16 one in English, and it is being tendered, received, and marked as Defence

17 Exhibit D800. Thank you.

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Witness, you heard the Prosecutor's remark. Could you please

20 explain for the Chamber what happened with the population of Velika

21 Glogova, Vladusici, and the refugee settlements that were in the woods

22 that you mentioned?

23 A. We were attacked from the areas I mentioned and they moved in

24 front alley and in a line. From one soldier to the next there was a space

25 of about ten metres. They were sweeping the terrain and we were pushed

Page 11815

1 back to the village of Cizmici, with all of the people that were there as

2 well with us.

3 Q. Thank you. Could you please tell the Chamber briefly what

4 happened between the 4th of August 1992 and the 8th of August 1992,

5 concerning Cizmici?

6 A. Yes. Between the 4th and the 8th of August, the shelling occurred

7 daily from Vresinje, Jezestica, Kravica, and Magasici. There was daily

8 shelling as well as infantry attacks. They wanted to destroy us then.

9 Q. Just pause for a moment, please. How do you know that those

10 attacks came from Vresinje, Jezestica, Kravica, and Magasici, that they

11 came from those specific places?

12 A. We had some of our people who reconnoitered their lines and that

13 then they would pass on the information as to what was happening.

14 Q. Thank you. To go back to the 8th of August 1992, perhaps a bit

15 later, but before that, I wanted to ask you something else. Have you ever

16 heard of the 16th Muslim Brigade?

17 A. Yes, we have.

18 Q. Was that brigade from the area of Srebrenica when you learned of

19 its existence?

20 A. That brigade was not from the area of Srebrenica.

21 Q. Can you tell us what did you learn about that brigade, who were

22 those people?

23 A. Our people who were in Cizmici went to Konjevic Polje to get food,

24 and on their way back, they told us that Nurif came and that he is in

25 Konjevic Polje.

Page 11816

1 Q. Do you know his full name?

2 A. Yes. Nurif Rizvanovic.

3 Q. Do you remember whether you found out that anyone else came with

4 Nurif Rizvanovic?

5 A. Yes. He brought along some 400 well-armed soldiers.

6 Q. Do you remember if anyone else came?

7 A. Yes. A physician, a doctor, came by the name of Nedret

8 Mujkanovic.

9 Q. Who did you learn that from?

10 A. From those people who came, from Konjevic Polje to Cizmici.

11 Q. Thank you.

12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could we please show

13 the next document to the witness, D647. That is the list of conscripts

14 that crossed over to the free territory on the 27th of July 1992, as the

15 16th Muslim Brigade.

16 Q. Witness, do you have that list in front of you?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Please take a look at page 12 in Bosnian and page 15 in the

19 English version for the Chamber.

20 That page belongs -- begins with the name Rasim Osmanovic.

21 Please take a look at the bottom of the page, the fifth or the

22 sixth name from the end, it says Nurif Rizvanovic, son of Nurija. Is that

23 the person that you said brought that group of soldiers with him, the 16th

24 Muslim Brigade, to the area of Konjevic Polje?

25 A. Yes. That's Nurif Rizvanovic.

Page 11817

1 Q. Had you heard of this Nurif Rizvanovic before the war?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. How come?

4 A. He was a neighbour of mine from Glogova.

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could we leave this

6 document with the witness, please, because we will come back to it.

7 Q. Now, to go back to the events of the 8th of August 1992, early in

8 the morning. Do you remember what took place on the 8th of August 1992,

9 early in the morning?

10 A. Yes, I do remember.

11 Q. Could you tell the Chamber what it was?

12 A. On the 8th of August 1992, as well as the few days before that, we

13 were exposed to a strong, heavy artillery shelling on Cizmici and there

14 were between 1.000 and 1500 inhabitants there.

15 Q. If you remember, was there any attack on some other villages,

16 Muslim villages, in the area?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Which places?

19 A. Shoes nary, Jaglici.

20 Q. All right. Thank you, Witness.

21 Where did that attack come from? Did you know that?

22 A. Yes, we did.

23 Q. Where from?

24 A. Cizmici was attacked from Vresinje and Jezestica and the other

25 part was attacked from the part of Brezova Njiva and Jaglici were attacked

Page 11818












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13 English transcripts.













Page 11819

1 from Jezestica and Djermani.

2 Q. How did you know that this was so?

3 A. As I said already, we had the people who had binoculars and they

4 were observing the enemy lines and they knew exactly from which direction

5 attacks came.

6 Q. Thank you. That morning, the 8th of August 1992, in Cizmici, did

7 you suffer any casualties as a result of that attack?

8 A. Yes. There were a lot of wounded and killed, both civilians and

9 the people belonging to our groups.

10 Q. Can you tell us why there were so many killed and wounded

11 civilians?

12 A. Because they were shelling the village of Cizmici.

13 Q. Were those people sleeping outside or were some of them inside as

14 well?

15 A. A lot of them slept out in the open because not all of them could

16 fit in. Cizmici is a small village and they didn't fit inside the houses.

17 Q. What was the reaction of the Muslim population concerning the

18 attack?

19 A. People decided either to be killed there or to drive those forces

20 away, the forces shelling, and they decided to move forth.

21 Q. Can you remember how many civilians were there in Cizmici?

22 A. I said about one, one and a half thousand.

23 Q. Did you have any other way out at that moment, apart from

24 attacking the attackers?

25 A. No. There was no other way.

Page 11820

1 Q. Can you tell me what followed?

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Registrar, Madam Registrar, you know

11 exactly which part to -- just that, all right? Thank you.

12 Yes, yes, but she knows, I mean in the meantime because the other

13 one will remain, part of it remain.

14 Let's continue, Ms. Vidovic, and we will take care of the

15 redaction.

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Those 100 or 150 people that you mentioned who went towards

18 Vresinje, were they all armed?

19 A. No, none of us were -- not all of us were armed. Perhaps

20 one-third was.

21 Q. Could you explain for the Chamber why the people who went with you

22 were largely unarmed but before that I wanted to ask you the following:

23 The remainder of the group that went with you, did you consider them to be

24 fighters or civilians?

25 A. Fighters.

Page 11821

1 Q. Then perhaps you can tell me why did those people accompany you

2 although they were unarmed?

3 A. They went along because, should somebody get wounded or killed,

4 they would pick up their weapon, whereas some other people would take the

5 killed or the wounded and take them back to Cizmici.

6 Q. Before the 8th of August 1992, and on that day, did any of you who

7 started towards Vresinje, were you wearing any sort of uniforms?

8 A. No, there were no uniforms whatsoever. We were in civilian

9 clothes, no uniforms.

10 Q. Did you reach the Serb lines at Vresinje?

11 A. Yes, we did.

12 Q. What happened next?

13 A. We managed to push them back from Vresinje and we went further to

14 their artillery positions, up to an oak wood.

15 Q. Please pause a moment and show the oak wood on the map, please.

16 If it's not marked on the map, perhaps you can show us where it

17 is.

18 A. It is not on the map.

19 Q. Could you at least approximately point out the location?

20 A. Perhaps around here somewhere.

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could we for a moment

22 move into private session, please?

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. In the meantime, I would need the technicians

24 to possibly focus that part a little bit better so that I can -- okay.

25 The witness has indicated with an A, a spot --

Page 11822

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the letter H.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: H, okay. Thank you. Above the village of

3 Blazijevici.

4 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters note that the witness is not

5 clear whether the Hrastik is actually a name of a location or an oak wood.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: I understood it to be that he was indicating the oak

7 wood. That's how I understood your question to be.

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we were actually

9 discussing a location.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Your question was the following. Please pause

11 a moment and show the oak wood on the map. Then if it's not marked on the

12 map, perhaps you can show us where it is. And then he said it's not on

13 the map and then question, "could you at least approximately point out the

14 location." So all the way I was understanding that he was indicating

15 where the oak wood was. If it's not, he can explain what H stands for and

16 of course his explanation --

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour?

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Vidovic?

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. We were talking about a

20 settlement called Hrastik although a wood, an oak wood, would bear the

21 same name.

22 Q. Witness, did you have the settlement of Hrastik in mind?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. So I was misunderstood by the interpreters.

25 Who headed your group once you reached Hrastik?

Page 11823

1 (redacted)

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Again --

3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I asked that we move into private

4 session, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: But we are not in private session as yet, we had not

6 yet moved in private session. So let's redact this part and move into

7 private session.

8 [Private session]

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 11824

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 [Open session]

20 JUDGE AGIUS: We are back in open session.

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. What happened at Hrastik, if you remember?

23 A. At Hrastik or just below it, at the entrance, we came across a

24 minefield. There were a lot of killed and wounded there, dozens actually.

25 Q. Did you step on a mine?

Page 11825

1 A. No.

2 Q. Did anyone close to you step on a mine?

3 A. Yes. A good friend of mine did. His name was Mustafa

4 Ibrahimovic.

5 Q. Tell us what you did.

6 A. Since he was a good friend of mine and I thought I could help, I

7 picked him up and I carried him towards Cizmici, together with the help of

8 others.

9 Q. Do you know how the events progressed? Did you discuss this with

10 your local commander or the group leader? Did you discuss the events that

11 followed?

12 A. Yes. We talked about it once they returned to the village.

13 Q. What did he tell you?

14 A. He told us the following, that there was combat and that a

15 reinforcement came from Kravica and that they could no longer stay there

16 and they had to withdraw.

17 Q. What composed that reinforcement from Kravica?

18 A. It was an infantry reinforcement.

19 Q. All right. Either on that day or any other day, did you meet with

20 Nurif Rizvanovic?

21 A. Yes, that same day, in Cizmici.

22 Q. Were you present during a certain conversation between a --

23 between the local group leader and Nurif Rizvanovic?

24 A. Yes, I was, since we stayed in the same house; seven or eight of

25 us were in that house.

Page 11826

1 Q. Who did Nurif Rizvanovic talk to? Perhaps just give us the name?

2 A. He spoke with Ejub.

3 Q. Did you -- were you there during the conversation?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Do you remember if Nurif came by himself or whether he brought

6 some other people with him?

7 A. A large group came with him.

8 Q. How many approximately?

9 A. As far as I could see, about 200.

10 Q. What were those people wearing, the people that came -- who came

11 with Nurif?

12 A. They were wearing camouflage uniforms.

13 Q. Did they have anything on their heads?

14 A. Yes. Green berets.

15 Q. Was there any insignia on the berets?

16 A. Yes. There was a crescent, as well as a star and two badges that

17 I couldn't recognise.

18 Q. So a white crescent and a star, is that something that can be seen

19 on the many flags of Muslim countries?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Up until 1995, apart from this particular event, did you ever see

22 such insignia before?

23 A. No, never.

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could we please show

25 four photographs to the witness? Together with these photographs I wanted

Page 11827

1 to submit a letter from Mr. Fahrudin Omerovic who is a photographer and he

2 gave me those photographs upon my request and this is his letter. He made

3 those photographs. I wanted to ask the witness to take a look at the

4 pictures. I marked them on their back with numbers 1, 2, 3, and 4.

5 Q. Therefore, Witness, could you please take a look at photograph

6 number 1?

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] And if we could put it on the ELMO.

8 A bit down so that we can see the insignia on the beret.

9 Q. Witness, do you recognise anyone on this photograph?

10 A. Yes. I know the man on the left side.

11 Q. Is that the one with the beret?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Could you please tell the Chamber who it is?

14 A. Refik Hasanovic of Mihajljevici [phoen].

15 Q. Did you during the war see this man?

16 A. I saw him then for the first time.

17 Q. When you say, "Then," what do you mean?

18 A. On the 8th. That was the first time I saw him.

19 Q. How come he came to Cizmici?

20 A. He came together with the Nurif's group.

21 Q. Please take a look at the photograph number 2. Concerning the

22 previous photograph and the man you recognised, was he introduced to you

23 in any special way?

24 A. He was in that house where we were spoke and he was one of the

25 commanders, perhaps a company commander.

Page 11828

1 Q. Please look at photograph number 2 -- no, number 2. The one that

2 is on the ELMO. Do you know either of the men shown here?

3 A. Yes. The one to the right. That's Huso Rizvanovic, Nurif's

4 brother.

5 Q. Did you see him as well on the 8th of August 1992?

6 A. Yes. He was with the group.

7 Q. Please look at photograph number 3 now. Do you recognise anyone

8 here?

9 A. Yes. The one with the beret. His name is Almaz Demirovic from

10 Kasan Polje.

11 Q. All right. On the 8th of August 1992, did he also arrive at

12 Cizmici together with Nurif Rizvanovic?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Please look at photograph number 4 now. Do you recognise anyone

15 there?

16 A. Yes. The person on the left side, his name is Hasan Ibrahimovic

17 of Kasan Polje.

18 Q. All right. Did you see him on the 8th of August in Cizmici?

19 A. Yes, I saw them as well.

20 Q. I wanted to ask you the following: All of those people who came

21 with Nurif Rizvanovic on that day, were they all in uniform and wearing

22 the berets as we can see them shown here?

23 A. Yes. They all wore uniforms such as ones you can see here.

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could we please give

25 this set of photographs an exhibit number?

Page 11829

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. So what is going to be marked as Defence

2 Exhibit D801 consists of the following: Four photographs marked

3 sequentially from 1 to 4 on the back, as stated by Madam Vidovic, and

4 described - these four photos - in a letter purportedly signed by a

5 certain Fahrudin Omerovic, dated 28th of September 2005, same document

6 being also available or made available also in the English language.

7 Together, the photos and the letter are, as stated, being tendered and

8 received as Exhibit D801.

9 It's time, Ms. Vidovic, if you want to finish here and continue

10 tomorrow.

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, perhaps it would be

12 good if I complete this topic. Perhaps I will need a couple of more

13 minutes to pose additional two or three questions directly pertaining to

14 the photographs and the list before the witness.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't have the list.

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Then, Your Honour, perhaps we could

17 continue tomorrow.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. We can continue tomorrow because I have

19 another sitting soon and it's going to last another three hours.

20 How much longer do you think you require for the

21 examination-in-chief, Ms. Vidovic? Roughly.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Perhaps another two hours tomorrow,

23 I guess. So after the first session and perhaps half of the second

24 session.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So please, Ms. Richardson, be prepared

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1 to start your cross-examination tomorrow.

2 MS. RICHARDSON: I will, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you.

4 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.46 p.m., to

5 be reconvened on Tuesday, the 4th day of October

6 2005 at 9.00 a.m.