1 Wednesday, 5 October 2005
2 [Open session]
3 --- Upon commencing at 9.12 a.m.
4 [The accused entered court]
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, good morning, Madam Registrar. Could you call
6 the case, please.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number
8 IT-03-68, the Prosecutor versus Naser Oric.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Madam. Mr. Oric, can you follow the
10 proceedings in your own language?
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours,
12 gentlemen. Yes, I can follow the proceedings in my own language.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. And good morning to you.
14 Appearances for the Prosecution.
15 MS. SELLERS: Good morning, Your Honours, I'm Patricia Sellers for
16 the Office of the Prosecution; lead counsel Jan Wubben will join us later
17 in the day. With me today, co-counsel Mr. Gramsci di Fazio,
18 Ms. Joanne Richardson, and our case manager Ms. Donnica Henry-Frijlink.
19 And good morning to the Defence.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: You haven't told us who will make place for
21 Mr. Wubben. And good morning to you.
22 Appearances for Naser Oric?
23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. Good
24 morning to my learned friends from the Prosecution. I'm Vasvija Vidovic
25 and together with Mr. John Jones we represent Mr. Naser Oric. And we have
1 our CaseMap manager, Mr. Geoff Roberts, and our legal assistant,
2 Ms. Adisa Mehic, with us.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Madam and good morning to you and your
5 Preliminaries. I have my attention -- it has been brought to my
6 attention that during the sitting of the 30th September, page 11690 of the
7 transcript, lines 11 to 14, although I had stated that the exhibit
8 referred to was D788, it went down in the transcript as D778. So that's
9 just for the record. The transcript was in error and I'm registering
11 All right. Any preliminaries, Ms. Sellers?
12 MS. SELLERS: None from this side of the Prosecution.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Vidovic?
14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Richardson, how long do you think your
16 cross-examination will last?
17 MS. RICHARDSON: Good morning to Your Honours. I anticipate that
18 I will take the first two sessions. Since this witness has covered a
19 significant amount of information about matters relating to the
20 indictment --
21 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I'm just making it clear that we cannot
22 stay here today because one of us needs to leave the Tribunal at 1.00 at
23 the latest so we cannot sit here beyond 1.00.
24 MS. RICHARDSON: I'll keep that in mind and try to expedite my --
25 JUDGE AGIUS: If necessary we will have one break rather than two.
1 If you think that you can still finish by 12.30, then we can have two
2 breaks as usual.
3 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, let's see how it goes. I think --
4 we'll see.
5 [The witness entered court]
6 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Start.
7 You're still testifying pursuant to your solemn declaration that
8 you will be testifying the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
9 truth. And good morning to you.
10 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]
11 MS. RICHARDSON: May I proceed, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, of course.
13 WITNESS: (redacted) [Resumed]
14 [Witness answered through interpreter]
15 Cross-examined by Ms. Richardson: [Continued]
16 Q. Sir, good morning to you and this morning I'd like to first advise
17 you that we are probably going to be running a little short on time and I
18 do need to finish a significant amount of material -- cover a significant
19 amount of material with you. So I'd ask you to keep your answers brief,
20 possibly a yes-no answer where appropriate and if you need to explain
21 further, you won't be prevented from doing that. You can do so. Do you
22 understand me?
23 A. Yes, very well.
24 Q. Thank you. Now, if I mispronounce any of the names and it doesn't
25 seem clear to you, please just let me know and I'll spell them out to you,
1 so just as a prelude to some of what I'll be talking about, names of
2 individuals or places.
3 A. Very well.
4 Q. And at some point I will have you look at the map that you
5 utilised yesterday. I believe it was Defence Exhibit 793 so we'll cover
6 some of that -- some of the areas you discussed as well. But firstly I'd
7 like to take you back to Prosecution Exhibit P90 which is where we ended
8 yesterday and we were -- if I could have the usher's assistance in giving
9 that to the witness and it's also on Sanction, Your Honour. We are going
10 back to page 25 of the English version of the document and I believe we
11 established yesterday that the B/C/S was located, I believe, on page 50,
12 if I'm not mistaken. So perhaps you can go back to page 50 and again we
13 are starting with the sentence that includes the name Seco, I'm not sure
14 I'm pronouncing it right again. But it's Mr. Delic. Can you see that in
15 your version?
16 A. Yes, I see it towards the bottom.
17 Q. Now, yesterday before the end of the session, there was a
18 discussion about the translation of the English in comparison to the B/C/S
19 version and, Your Honours, I believe you asked that we -- the Prosecution
20 take a look at the translation to see if, in fact, there was some
21 discrepancy. I can tell you this morning that there is some discrepancy
22 and I think we will have to make efforts to resubmit a translation --
23 probably check the entire book again, and resubmit a translation if
24 necessary. But with respect to this portion, there is some discrepancy.
25 I was informed by our language assistant that the sentence, the first
1 sentence should read, "on that occasion, 60 people had been killed, only
2 Musan Talovic and Seco Delic escaped the death plan for them."
3 (redacted)is it correct -- is this what the B/C/S version of
4 the document states?
5 A. I met Seco Delic and he told me about this. As far as Musan
6 Talovic is concerned, I know him but I don't know whether he was at this
7 execution. He never told me anything.
8 Q. Fair enough. But Mr. Delic told you that he had escaped -- that
9 he had in effect not been executed as planned?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And he also told you about Mr. Ibisevic and his two sons who had
12 been killed with him, and that they had -- that they had been found
13 embraced together?
14 A. Yes. He told me. I mean, he didn't tell me in the place where
15 the execution took place but on the way from my house to that place where
16 the execution took place, that's where I met him. When I came to the
17 place where the execution took place, I saw Mustafa Ibisevic and his two
19 Q. All right. Good enough. Now, if you read further in the
20 document, there are the names mentioned of the various individuals, Serb
21 individuals, who had been involved in the execution.
22 MS. RICHARDSON: Now, I will not read out the names for you from
23 the book, from page 26, Your Honour, of the English version.
24 Q. But if you could look at those names that are stated, could you
25 just tell us, with a yes or no, whether the names are the individuals that
1 you were told were involved in the executions?
2 A. I already said that yesterday, he saw the people there,
3 Mladjenovic, Najdan, close by Milo, Ribo, Djedura and Mr. Deronjic. He
4 saw them nearby.
5 Q. So the names that are reflected in this book are accurate?
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Jones?
7 MR. JONES: That's clearly a distortion of the evidence which he's
8 just given. One of the names which we've just seen doesn't appear there
9 and he hasn't confirmed all the names so, you know, that's --
10 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, we can go through them one by one
11 and --
12 JUDGE AGIUS: I think that's the case. That's why I allowed
13 Mr. Jones to object before the witness started giving his answer because I
14 would have objected too.
15 MS. RICHARDSON: Fair enough.
16 Q. The two brothers that are mentioned, Nidjan and Milenko
17 Madanovic [sic] from Hranca, were they?
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Najdan. I mean, try -- again, repeat the names,
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mladjenovic.
21 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes.
22 Q. Were they -- were you told that they were at the executions?
23 A. I know that Najdan Mladjenovic was there and that he was seen
24 there. I didn't see anything about Milenko.
25 Q. All right. What about Miladin Jokic and Radomir Milosevic?
1 A. I already said about Jokic, that he was the main person, as far as
2 confiscating weapons in Glogova and issuing the ultimatum and already I
3 talked about what he participated in and where he was seen.
4 Q. What about Radomir Milosevic?
5 A. I said about Radomir Milosevic that he was killed. I think that
6 he was killed on the 1st or the 2nd of June. That's when he was killed in
7 Glogova and that he was found, meaning that he participated in the attack
8 on Glogova and that he was killed on that date.
9 Q. All right. So he participated on the attack. Was he also
10 involved in the executions, that you know?
11 A. No. I don't know about that.
12 Q. But the executions occurred on the first day of attack?
13 A. Yes. On the 9th of May.
14 Q. All right. Let's take the next name, Radeno Milanovic [sic]. Do
15 you know if he was involved?
16 A. No, no. I didn't say anything about this man.
17 Q. So you don't know if he was involved? Do you know if he was
18 involved, yes or no?
19 A. Your Honours, should I -- should she be asking me questions or
20 should I be responding immediately after?
21 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't understand that. She asks you questions and
22 unless I tell you, "Don't answer this question," you have to answer it.
23 That's how it works here.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well, very well.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: But if you have an objection, you need to explain to
1 us first and we will discuss amongst ourselves and we will see whether
2 your objection is well-founded or not. Otherwise, she has -- she is doing
3 her duty here. She has a very important responsibility before this
4 Tribunal, and she must be allowed to make all the questions that the
5 Prosecution feels are important, and you have a responsibility and an
6 obligation to answer them. However, if there are questions that you find
7 objection to, please address us. We are here to listen to everybody. And
8 we will authorise you or not authorise you to refrain from answering, all
9 right? Okay.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well. Very well.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: So perhaps it's the case of repeating your question,
12 Ms. Richardson.
13 MS. RICHARDSON: I will.
14 Q. Could you tell us if Mr. Pero Jovanovic was present. Let me just
15 go back. There was one before, actually the first name that I wanted you
16 to tell us about was Radeno Milanovic. Was he involved in the execution
17 or involved in the attack on the village?
18 A. I don't know. I don't know anything about that man.
19 Q. All right. And what about Pero Jovanovic, from Hranca?
20 A. I don't know about that man either.
21 Q. And Tadija Mitrovic?
22 A. Tadija, yes, I saw Tadija. Tadija was there. Maybe I didn't
23 mention him yesterday but I saw him myself.
24 Q. Thank you very much. That's all the questions I have for now with
25 respect to P90, and we'll get back to it.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: I thought you had finished your cross-examination.
2 I had already put on a smile on my face.
3 MS. RICHARDSON: Sorry, Your Honour, we have a ways to go.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Stop. Let's go into private session for a second.
7 [Private session]
6 [Open session]
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Sorry to have interrupted you like this. But I know
8 it's not your intention to create problems, so --
9 MR. JONES: Your Honour, it's also page 9, lines 7 to 8.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, but we were in private session then.
11 MR. JONES: Apologies.
12 MS. RICHARDSON: May I continue, Your Honour?
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, of course. I apologise to you for interrupting
15 MS. RICHARDSON:
16 Q. Sir, could you tell us, tell the Trial Chamber, I believe you
17 testified yesterday that you had not heard about -- heard of Naser Oric
18 prior to August 8th. So just for clarification, was that after August 8,
19 was that the first time you ever heard of Naser Oric?
20 A. Probably after the 8th of August. I probably heard of him but the
21 first time I met him was perhaps on the 10th or sometime between the 10th
22 and the 15th of January, when I was in hospital in Srebrenica. That was
23 the first time I met him.
24 Q. And prior to August 8th, you never heard of him before?
25 A. No, no. I didn't hear of him before.
1 Q. And when you were in the hospital in Srebrenica, what did you hear
2 of Mr. Oric?
3 A. He came to the hospital. I saw him there.
4 Q. All right. And what -- could you tell us about that? Did you
5 speak with him?
6 A. No. I was seriously wounded. I was seriously wounded. I was in
7 great pain. I just saw him pass by. We didn't talk, at least I don't
8 remember us having talked.
9 Q. And had you met him before?
10 A. No, no. I haven't met him before.
11 Q. How did you know that was Oric, Naser Oric who passed you by in
12 the hospital?
13 A. If I remember correctly, because I said I was in great pain, I
14 think he was going from one hospital room to another, and one of the
15 nurses may have mentioned his name.
16 Q. And do you remember in what context she mentioned his name? Did
17 she just say, "There goes Naser Oric," or was it in reference to something
18 else, something in particular?
19 A. No. Nothing specific. He was probably going to see the wounded,
20 I think.
21 Q. And how long -- how long a period of time when you saw him? Was
22 he visiting individuals when you say he was probably visiting the
23 wounded? Could you just explain a little bit more? Did you see him
24 actually speaking with someone who was on a bed? You said he was going
25 from room to room. Could you explain?
1 A. In my room, there were four or five beds. I didn't see or notice
2 him or talk with anyone since I was in great pain, I had an inflammation
3 and my body temperature was high.
4 Q. Prior to your arrival in Srebrenica for the treatment, for medical
5 treatment, what had you heard of Naser Oric?
6 A. I said earlier, before I came there, I haven't heard of him, but
7 perhaps later on I may have overheard a conversation concerning his name
8 but nothing specific.
9 Q. And who did you think Naser Oric was when the nurse pointed him
10 out to you or mentioned that he was in the room?
11 A. I thought he was an ordinary person like anyone else. All of the
12 people there were the same. You couldn't distinguish one from another.
13 Q. Did you later learn who he was? In terms of his position in
15 A. No. I didn't know what his function was in Srebrenica.
16 Q. And no one told you?
17 A. No. No. Because after three weeks in the hospital, I went back
18 to Cizmici and I was there.
19 Q. Did the nurse point out anyone else to you other than Naser Oric?
20 A. There were people coming in and out all the time. I don't know
21 who they or what they were.
22 Q. Do you remember how he was dressed?
23 A. I couldn't tell you. I don't know.
24 Q. So you don't know if he was in camouflage uniform or civilian
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 A. I don't know. I don't remember that, his clothing.
2 Q. All right. And you stated that there were other wounded men in
3 the room with you. How many men were in the room with you?
4 JUDGE AGIUS: He already said there were five.
5 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour.
6 Q. Is that correct? Sir? Five men?
7 A. Yes, four or five.
8 Q. All right. And of those men, who were they? Do you know their
10 A. No. I can't tell you their names because I didn't know them at
11 the time and I was there briefly. I had my own problems and I left the
12 hospital rather quickly and went back. Perhaps I would recognise them
13 today but I can't remember their names.
14 Q. All right. And during this three weeks you were there, were these
15 same men in the room with you?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And did you talk to them?
18 A. I had my own problems, as I said. I expected my arm to be cut
19 off, and my body temperature was very high every day. I wasn't able to
20 talk with anyone.
21 Q. Did you get the impression that these men were -- who were
22 wounded, were fighters, such as yourself?
23 A. I don't know who they were, whether they were wounded by grenades
24 or shells. I think one of them was but I can't remember for others, for
25 the others.
1 Q. And as far as you know, you said that you didn't know them. You
2 didn't know what areas of the Srebrenica region they were from? Or if in
3 fact they were from Srebrenica, the Srebrenica region?
4 A. I don't know.
5 Q. Are you familiar with an individual named Zulfo Tursunovic?
6 A. I heard of Zulfo.
7 Q. And when did you hear of him?
8 A. I think after UNPROFOR entered Srebrenica, close to the end of
10 Q. And did you learn what position, if any, he held in Srebrenica or
11 in any other area in this -- in the region?
12 A. No. I didn't hear the time that he was in any particular position
13 or function. When UNPROFOR came in, and by mid-1993, I moved to
14 Srebrenica because there was no more room in Cizmici.
15 Q. And what did you hear of him?
16 A. I also heard that his name was Zulfo Tursunovic and not much more,
17 as well as any other ordinary person.
18 Q. Okay. Well, did you learn that he was one of the fighters in
19 Srebrenica or had participated in defending the region?
20 A. The only thing I knew was that he was from the area of Suceska,
21 nothing else. I had heard something before that, that he had some
22 problems and probably that's why I remember him but that was prior to the
23 war. It was unrelated to the war.
24 Q. Were you aware that Suceska had a - excuse me - were you aware
25 that Suceska had a Territorial Defence in May of - excuse me - in 1992?
1 A. No.
2 Q. What about Mirzet Halilovic? Did you know him?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Did you know Ahmo Tihic?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Ramiz Becirovic?
7 A. I saw Ramiz Becirovic perhaps in 1994, I think, but I don't know
9 Q. And do you know what position if any he held in Srebrenica?
10 A. I don't know concerning that period. I don't know if he held any
12 Q. And before 1994, were you aware that Srebrenica had a Territorial
14 Excuse me, I'll rephrase that question. Prior to your arrival in
15 Srebrenica in January of 1993, were you aware that Srebrenica had a
16 Territorial Defence?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Were you aware that the Muslims were in control of Srebrenica in
19 May and June of 1992?
20 A. Yes. I didn't know precisely what was going on in Srebrenica but
21 I knew that, since there are Pale and Potocari behind Cizmici, this is
22 what I knew about. But as for the rest I didn't know anything about their
23 activities and movements. So I knew that that part was free, towards
24 Jaglici and Susnjari.
25 Q. And by free, meaning in control -- controlled by Muslims?
1 A. Yes. The Muslims.
2 Q. And were you aware that these areas had Territorial Defence in
4 A. No.
5 Q. And when you say they were free, what exactly do you mean? Free
6 of Serbs as well? Not living in those areas?
7 A. I don't know whether Serbs lived there. I didn't know that part
8 of the area. I got familiar with it later on, after UNPROFOR came to
9 Srebrenica and into the area of Cizmici.
10 Q. Were you aware that Serbs lived in Srebrenica prior to the out --
11 the conflict? Prior to May of 1992?
12 A. I suppose so. There were Serbs in Bratunac, in Srebrenica, but I
13 didn't know precisely where and how many. I didn't know the same thing
14 for the Muslims either.
15 Q. Were you -- was January of 1993, when you were treated in
16 Srebrenica, was that the first time you'd been in Srebrenica?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And when you lived in Srebrenica, I believe you said from
19 mid-1993, up until the fall of Srebrenica, 1995, would that be correct?
20 A. Yes. I wasn't there all of the time, since my mother was in
21 Cizmici, and I would on occasion go to Cizmici and I spent my time in
22 Srebrenica. So I was moving about the area.
23 Q. All right. So you were able, from March of 1993 up until the fall
24 of Srebrenica in 1995, to move between Srebrenica and Cizmici to visit
25 your family?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And during the time that you spent in Srebrenica, had you learned
3 of Naser Oric's role in Srebrenica during 1992?
4 A. No.
5 Q. You never -- did you speak to individuals who lived in
7 A. I don't know who you have in mind. I did speak with some people,
8 but we couldn't discuss every single person in Srebrenica. There were
9 40.000 people there.
10 Q. And no one in Srebrenica during that time brought up the name of
11 Naser Oric to you? And I'm talking about from March 1993 until 1995.
12 A. As I said, I was of no importance. Why would anyone had to
13 mention some names to me? I was just another person.
14 Q. Well, you would agree, would you not, that individuals in
15 Srebrenica at the time, when you were there, discussed various matters
16 relating to what had occurred in the region in 1992 up until -- to the
17 present, people talked about what was going on with the Serbs and the
18 Muslims, did they not?
19 A. There were people from different areas there, from four
20 municipalities encompassing 400 villages. There were lots of people, and
21 I can't remember exactly what the story and the situation was.
22 Q. Well, my question is: Did you talk about the liberation of the
23 various areas in Srebrenica and Bratunac during the period of 1992 up
24 until 1993?
25 A. I mainly associated with people from Glogova. I spent my time
1 with them and I would see them most often. I don't know what other people
2 may have discussed.
3 Q. So is the answer to that question yes or no that you did not
4 discuss with the people you knew about the liberation of Bratunac and
5 Srebrenica -- and Srebrenica municipalities?
6 A. No, not with all people.
7 Q. And no one ever mentioned the name Naser Oric to you in connection
8 with the Srebrenica TO during that period of time?
9 A. Perhaps people did mention Naser Oric's name but as to his
10 position, that wasn't mentioned, and I didn't know about it.
11 Q. All right. And when they mentioned his name, in what context did
12 they mention his name?
13 A. It would be the same as if they mentioned my name. There was
14 nothing apart from the name.
15 Q. Well, they just said the name and nothing else, who he was, what
16 he was doing, was he in Srebrenica or not?
17 A. I can't answer your question since I already said what I knew.
18 Q. That's fine. We can move on.
19 Now, you mentioned yesterday that you were -- you had been a
20 member of the antisabotage unit. Could you tell us -- and that was for a
21 period of three months. Could you tell us some of the things that you did
22 as a member of that unit? And this was during your training with the JNA.
23 A. I guess we didn't understand each other too well. I said that in
24 the former JNA, I was in the ABH branch, and after that, I underwent a
25 three month training regarding the issue you mentioned but that wasn't at
1 the beginning of the war.
2 Q. All right. Thank you for clarifying that. Could you tell the
3 Trial Chamber what types of activities, training, that you undertook as --
4 in this unit?
5 A. Do you have the entire military term in mind or just the last
6 three months?
7 Q. I'm talking about the last three months. In the antisabotage
9 A. It was in or by the end of 1986, and at the beginning of 1987, I
10 believe I went away at the beginning of 1987. So we had this antisabotage
11 platoon and I was a member of the platoon. That was a three-month
12 training. I don't know whether that was recorded anywhere but I did
13 undergo the training. The place where I served my military was a hilly
14 terrain, and since we have completed our nuclear, biological, chemical
15 training we moved to another type of training, and for exercise, one group
16 would be put on the top of a hill and then another group would be
17 designated as well as their enemy, and it was our duty to locate them and
18 to push them back, and we used blanks.
19 Q. Did you all -- were you also trained in conducting reconnaissance?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Do you know what a reconnaissance is?
22 A. I suppose, and based on what I know what reconnoitring or doing
23 reconnaissance is but apart from that I can't say much more.
24 Q. Well, why don't you tell us in your experience what that entails.
25 A. Reconnaissance entails -- well, say, I had a pair of binoculars
1 and I reconnoitre, doesn't matter who, but I want to learn of their
2 movements, of their activities, I think that's what it is.
3 Q. And I take it once you learn of their activities you're required
4 to report the activities to someone.
5 A. I didn't say I did the reconnaissance. I never said that. And I
6 never said that I transferred any information.
7 Q. No. I understand that. I'm just talking in general, once you
8 reconnoitre an area, you should relay this information to a superior,
9 should you not? Or someone who would consider this information of
11 A. Yes. For example, the scout would have to report to someone, it
12 doesn't matter who, but we, for example, in our groups, we would have to
13 tell at least one person and then they would pass on that information to
14 others, as to what was happening in the area.
15 Q. All right. Okay. We'll get back to that. Thank you.
16 Yesterday, you testified that there were four armed groups, and
17 that these groups were led by Ejub Golic. And that, in fact, these groups
18 were located -- Your Honour, I see Madam Vidovic?
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Vidovic?
20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, for the transcript, he
21 had -- the witness said a man who did the reconnaissance. He didn't use
22 the word scout. He said the word, the man who reconnoitred, and we see
23 here the word "scout" appearing. So the person observing. Then they
24 would pass on the information, but he wasn't using the exact word.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Now that we are -- I thank you for the observation,
1 Ms. Vidovic, and it is of some relevance for sure because throughout his
2 entire examination-in-chief, the witness has been at least in -- as far as
3 the transcript goes, I wasn't following his testimony in his own language,
4 and I don't know which word he used in his own language, but as far as the
5 transcript is concerned, I'm sure that we will find throughout the use
6 of "scouts." He was testifying that they had their own scouts who were
7 bringing information and they were sending scouts to forward information
8 to others.
9 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour's recollection is correct and the
10 transcript is replete with that word.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: But if the Defence think that is there is a
12 difference between the use of the word "scout" and the use and the
13 significance of the word that the witness may have been using, in his
14 testimony during the examination-in-chief, please come forward and say so.
15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, he kept saying, the man
16 or a man doing reconnaissance. And this is different from the
17 word "scout" which has a military sense to it. So a person observing.
18 Witness, did you understand me? Am I correct?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
20 MR. JONES: Your Honour, may I also say, just so this doesn't get
21 horribly confused --
22 JUDGE AGIUS: I hope so, and I would appreciate your intervention
23 in --
24 MR. JONES: It's just to say, also we are talking about the
25 evidence in chief and the evidence he just gave now, that the whole last
1 bit of evidence about reconnaissance was, of course, about the JNA and in
2 general matters what somebody doing reconnaissance does. He wasn't
3 talking about the same thing as after 1992, so that should be clear to
4 everyone as well.
5 MS. RICHARDSON: Let me just say, Your Honour, I think we can go
6 back to the transcript. There was a point whether I asked the witness
7 generally what reconnoiter entailed and then he said, when we did the --
8 when we in fact had someone do the reconnaissance, he used the word scout
9 so I think that's not exactly correct.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Again, I -- usually I wouldn't have bothered about
11 this but once you are American and you have knowledge of the American
12 language. Mr. Jones is British and to us and to him and to me, scouts has
13 quite a different connotation from a military -- I mean scouts for me is
14 what I was in -- when I was a little boy. This is Lord Baden-Powell's
15 organisation. So -- but I do understand that when he says or when I see
16 in the transcript "scouts," is a person that is being given a particular
17 task of reconnoitering, I mean, more or less. That's how I have
18 understood it but I am not aware of the Serbo-Croat word that the witness
19 used yesterday and the day before. I'm not aware of it. If there is the
20 submission that the word that he used throughout these last two days has
21 got a different significance to the word "scout" as it has appeared in the
22 transcript and how I have said I understand it, then please tell us
23 because we will rely on what we will have on the transcript.
24 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, perhaps we can ask the witness if
25 there's a difference in --
1 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't know what word he used these last two days.
2 Madam Vidovic can tell us which word he used or the transcript and the
3 sound recording.
4 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, perhaps we can ask the witness what
5 word he used. Did he use the word "scout" or is he using the word, the
6 person who did the reconnoitering.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.
8 Sir, these persons that were gathering information for you,
9 bringing -- going out, gathering information and coming back and relaying
10 it to you, which word did you use to describe them in your own language?
11 I want the Serbo-Croat word from you. I want to hear it.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A person, a person going somewhere
13 who happened to have seen or observed something, a man.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't know. I'm at a loss. "Covjek," he said.
15 "Covjek," he said. Is it important? I mean, I don't know. I mean --
16 MS. RICHARDSON: It's not important. I think we all understand
17 what the witness is referring to, whether it's --
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, let's move.
19 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you. Thank you.
20 Q. Now, sir, you testified that these groups were located in Velika
21 Glogova and Vladusici and Cizmici and they were led by Ejub Golic; is that
23 A. And that there was another group between Glogova and Vladusici, in
24 the woods. That was the fourth group.
25 Q. So there was a total of four groups in all?
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 A. Yes, yes.
2 Q. And they were all led by Ejub Golic?
3 A. Yes. When we got together and when we discussed the situation and
4 that when we realised it was the last moment to do something, we agreed
5 that he be the leader.
6 Q. Could you tell us -- and yesterday I know you had difficulties
7 when I asked you how many men were in the groups -- and perhaps do you
8 recall today how many men were in each group?
9 A. As I said yesterday, people died every day. People got wounded
10 every day. Every hour perhaps. So the manning strength varied. We never
11 knew the precise number. We didn't have any lists, since we didn't have
12 any paper, and we didn't have any time on our hands.
13 Q. All right. Perhaps the usher can assist me by showing the witness
14 Defence Exhibit 809.
15 One moment, Your Honour. Sorry, Your Honour, if I could have a
16 moment. I apologise. I actually want -- as a matter of fact, sorry,
17 Mr. Usher, if you can leave the witness with that document but I'd also
18 like him to be shown Defence Exhibit 807.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: We are keeping there 809?
20 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, Your Honour, thank you.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: And he's now being shown 807.
22 MS. RICHARDSON:
23 Q. Now, if you could just take a look at this document. Yesterday
24 you recall that you were asked questions about certain information in the
25 document. Now, I'm going to take you to the area which talks about the
1 number of soldiers and the number of civilians and I will read from the
2 English version. It's number 1, paragraph number 1, "We estimate that
3 there are about 500 soldiers and a much larger number of civilians, 1.000
4 women and children, in this sector.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. One moment. Ms. Vidovic?
6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Just to say that fighters are also
7 mentioned in the document and not soldiers, "borci" as opposed to
9 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So according to the Defence the
10 translation in the English document text that you're using is not correct.
11 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: So I would suggest that you read -- in any case, he
13 is receiving interpretation in his own language. I want to make sure that
14 he has received the correct word.
15 Were you following Ms. Vidovic the proceedings in B/C/S?
16 MR. JONES: It's more that the Exhibit itself, D807 says soldiers
17 and it's "borci."
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, I know, but what he is looking is not the
19 English version.
20 MR. JONES: No. It should be okay for him.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Provided you're happy with that, we can move ahead.
22 Okay. All right. Yes, Ms. Richardson.
23 MS. RICHARDSON: Just trying to determine who translated this
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would just like the
2 interpreters to follow the -- the interpreter again repeated that in the
3 document it says "soldiers." In the Bosnian document, or in the document
4 in Bosnian, it is said "fighters," "borci."
5 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. It's borci that we are talking about and
6 not soldiers. All right? Look at the document. The document that --
7 could you please -- usher, please put the document on the ELMO so that I
8 make sure of what it says. And could we have the first paragraph zoomed
9 in, please, enlarged? I can't find it.
10 MR. JONES: It's the first words on the fourth line, "borac."
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Borac, okay, yeah, all right. And those are
12 fighters according to ... So we are -- it's borci that we are talking
13 about, all right? In that document.
14 Go ahead, Ms. Richardson.
15 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you.
16 Q. Sir, you confirmed yesterday when you were asked about information
17 in this document that there were a thousand women and children. Do you
18 recall that?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Now, the document also states that we estimate that there were
21 about 500 fighters and a much larger number of civilians and it goes on to
22 talk about the number of civilians. Now I'd like to ask you about the
23 number of fighters that is indicated here. Is that the number of fighters
24 that were -- formed part of the groups that you were talking about?
25 A. Well, I don't know. This is their estimate, the estimate of the
1 person who drafted the report. Whether they were -- 500 soldiers there, I
2 mean, the fighters, I don't know.
3 Q. But they estimated that --
4 A. Well it must mean that there were 500.
5 Q. And they estimated the number of women and children, the
6 civilians, correctly, as you confirmed?
7 A. Well, no. I cannot, for the fighters, but as far as the
8 civilians, there were about 1.000 to 1.500. That was always the number
10 Q. I apologise, speaking too fast. That's exactly what I'm asking.
11 You confirm that the number they estimated of the women and children is
12 correct. Just answer me with a yes or no.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And the number of -- and they also estimate that there were 500
15 fighters in this document.
16 A. That was their estimate. It wasn't my estimate.
17 Q. Well, what is your estimate, sir?
18 A. Well, I really wouldn't be able to say. Glogova is a broader
19 area. I showed it to you yesterday. So there were no lists, there was
20 nothing, and I cannot say how many there were.
21 Q. Okay. I'm done with that document for the moment. Thank you.
22 Now, sir, you also testified yesterday when you were asked about
23 the number of refugees in the area of Cizmici, you stated there were
24 about 60, 80, or 90 or so living in the houses in Cizmici. Do you recall
1 A. Yes, yes.
2 Q. And that's a number you remember?
3 A. Yes, that's what I said about how many there were. I don't know
4 if you understood properly that people were also living out in the open.
5 They were outside.
6 Q. My question was with respect to your estimation of the number of
7 civilians, so I believe you've answered correctly that you confirm that
8 these were the numbers you were aware of in terms of the refugees in
9 Cizmici. Is that correct?
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Vidovic?
11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the witness said
12 yesterday that there were 60, 70, 80, or 90 in each house in Cizmici, not
13 in houses in Cizmici.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: That's what I recall.
15 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, that's fine and that's in the
17 Q. My question to you, sir, is that you are very clear on the number
18 of civilians that were in the area at the time, were you not?
19 A. Are you thinking of Cizmici or Cizmici and Glogova?
20 Q. Cizmici.
21 A. In Cizmici. Could you please just clarify which period
23 Q. In July and August of 1992.
24 A. In late July and early August, there were about 1.000 to
1 Q. Thank you. And my question is: How many fighters were there?
2 A. I don't know how many times I've already said it, that I don't
3 know how many fighters there were. I'm saying this for the 10th time,
5 Q. And you were one of the fighters, correct?
6 A. Yes, yes.
7 Q. And just so that we understand, you're able to give us an estimate
8 of the number of civilians but not of the number of fighters, of which --
9 of whom you were one?
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Answer the question, please.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said -- well, let me say, for
12 example, it's ranging from 300 to 400 men. This is my estimate though I
13 don't know the exact number. I cannot state the exact number but I
14 estimate that it was between 300 to 400.
15 MS. RICHARDSON: We have one now, thank you.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment.
17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, just an objection.
18 The witness did not at any point provide a correct or a precise estimate
19 of the civilians. He's also saying between 1.000 to 1.500 civilians, and
20 that cannot be considered as a precise number. That was just also an
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I think you are right. Basically we are
23 talking about estimates.
24 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, it's the same question, an
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I think we can move. The whole idea behind
2 your question was very obvious so let's --
3 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you. I can move on now.
4 Q. I'd like to ask you about Ejub Golic's leadership of the four
5 groups during the period of may, June, July, up until August of 1992. You
6 said that the four groups were located in four separate areas, in the area
7 of Glogova. And at this time I'd like the usher's assistance with showing
8 the witness Defence Exhibit 793. This is the map that you testified from
9 yesterday, and you indicated a number of villages to us.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Is the ELMO in the way, Ms. Richardson? Can -- all
12 MS. RICHARDSON: No, Your Honour, it's fine, thank you.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.
14 MS. RICHARDSON:
15 Q. Sir, I'd like you to find the areas that you were just testifying
16 about, that the four groups were located. If you could just point to
17 where those areas are so it could -- it will assist us in knowing exactly
18 where the groups were.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: What's the colour? Because from the monitor you
20 cannot tell exactly what the colour he used yesterday was and the day
21 before. Could we give him another colour with which to indicate these
22 spots, please?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't think it's this map. I
24 don't think it's on this map.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no, no. I don't think you have followed what I
1 said. The markings that you are going to make now, I want them in a
2 different colour from the ones -- from the one you used to mark the
3 various places these last two days so that we can identify or distinguish
4 these from the others. So what was the colour -- usher -- from where you
5 are, what's the colour that he used?
6 THE USHER: Red.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Red. Could you now give him another colour, please?
8 Yes. Now, Ms. Richardson wants you to indicate with spots, circles, on
9 the map the four places where these four groups --
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, Your Honours, I don't
11 see Velika Glogova here. I think then that it was not this map. It was a
12 different map.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: No. It is -- Velika Glogova is -- anyway, he is
14 right. You can see Glogova there but that's Velika Glogova that you have
15 on that map. We can get the other map, which was -- yes, that's the other
16 map. We can get the other map.
17 Would that be all right for you, Ms. Richardson, if he marks on
18 the other map rather than on this one?
19 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, Your Honour, that's fine.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So let's take the other map and you mark
21 on the other map. Thank you, sir, for pointing that out.
22 So let's start. We want to know where these four places, where
23 these four groups were stationed, where. I take it that one of them was
24 Velika Glogova or -- but you know. Let's go through them one by one, the
25 first --
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, Velika Glogova.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Vladusici.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: M'hm.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Cizmici.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Uh-huh.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And one group was in between, here
8 in the woods somewhere between Velika Glogova and Vladusici.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I thank you, sir.
10 Yes, Ms. Richardson.
11 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour.
12 Q. Thank you, sir. Now, you testified -- we can leave the map there
13 for a moment. Perhaps, though, you can tell us how far Cizmici is -- how
14 far away is Cizmici from Velika Glogova?
15 A. About seven or eight kilometres. This is just my estimate. I
16 don't know. Something like that.
17 Q. And what about Glogova from Vlasucici?
18 A. Vladusici?
19 Q. Yes.
20 A. Perhaps two, 2.5 kilometres, something like that.
21 Q. Could you also -- while you have -- while you have this map, could
22 you also point to the area of Belicava? Do you see Belicava on the map?
23 You can just point to it.
24 A. I don't know which area. I didn't get the name.
25 Q. Yes. I can repeat it. Belicava. Or Beliceva?
1 A. Bljeceva?
2 Q. Thank you, thank you.
3 A. Bljeceva is below. I don't have a marker.
4 Q. All right.
5 A. This part, below Cizmici.
6 Q. That's fine. Now, you testified that Ejub Golic was the leader of
7 all the four groups in these areas. Could you tell us how Ejub Golic
8 communicated -- perhaps I should ask you this. I'll rephrase the
9 question, sir. Where was Ejub Golic most of the time in May, June and
10 July of 1992? Was he in one particular village? I believe you said it
11 was Cizmici.
12 A. No, no. In Velika Glogova.
13 Q. Okay. Thank you. And he was able to communicate, as the leader
14 of the group, with the group in Cizmici, seven to eight kilometres away;
15 is that correct?
16 A. He was in the area of Velika Glogova, and those people who
17 comprised that group would come from those groups and there was talk about
18 what was going on in the various places amongst the groups. So some
19 people would come from a group and say that such and such a thing happened
20 in that group and ...
21 Q. Okay. So someone -- so that I'm clear, someone from the Cizmici
22 group would come to Velika Glogova to speak with Ejub Golic to report on
23 what was happening in their group and in their area? Would that be
25 A. Yes, yes. [No interpretation].
1 It was most often through Mociva [phoen]; that was that
3 Q. I'm sorry, could you explain that? What do you mean it was most
4 often through Mociva?
5 A. They used that road, the people who were moving. They used the
6 Cizmici-Mocila-Vladusici-Glogova road, and so on.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Vidovic?
8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think that the best
9 thing would be for the Prosecutor to repeat the question for the witness
10 and for the witness to repeat the answer, because he did not mention
11 Mocevici at all. He explained that way of communicating. Perhaps it
12 would be good for the Prosecutor to repeat the question because there was
13 no interpretation for the transcript.
14 MS. RICHARDSON: That's fine, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead, Ms. Richardson.
16 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, I can do that.
17 Q. You mention that -- and if I did say the name Mocevici, it would
18 be incorrect because I think the -- sir, you said it was Mocila?
19 A. Mocila, yes.
20 Q. Perhaps you can do this. You mentioned that the people from
21 Cizmici would communicate with Velika Glogova. Could you indicate on the
22 map what path they would take? And that would probably hope us understand
23 the road that you're talking about. And if you can use a marker so we'll
24 have a record of that, thank you. Green is fine.
25 A. The most frequently used was the Cizmici-Mocila road and they
1 would reach Velika Glogova so that would be that road. I cannot really
2 tell you precisely where they went. I can just give you the general
3 direction. But only they know where they went, which paths they used,
4 through which woods, along which creek, and so on they walked.
5 Q. Did they come on -- was this journey on foot or other means of
6 transportation? Did they use horses?
7 A. No, no. Only on foot.
8 Q. And what would they communicate to Ejub Golic, as the leader of
9 the group, if you know? What types of things would they tell him about?
10 A. I wasn't there with him every time. I was in the Velika Glogova
11 area but I wasn't with him. They would more or less describe what the
12 situation was where they were and then the others would say what the
13 situation was in their terrain, and that's how the information was
15 Q. This was done because the various members of the group would have
16 someone reconnoiter the area?
17 A. People who were moving in that terrain would often get killed on
18 the road. I don't know whether it was because they ran into an ambush or
19 stepped on a mine. There were all sorts of things happening. A person
20 would go to convey something but they would never arrive. And the next
21 person would go. And that person would then either get there or not get
22 there. Some people managed to get to the place where they were going to
23 and some did not.
24 Q. Thank you. My question was, though, the people from the group,
25 for instance, Cizmici, the reason that they were able to communicate what
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 was going on in their area to Ejub Golic is because they had individuals
2 who were observing what was -- what the Serbs were doing in the -- in the
3 vicinity close to them. Would that be correct?
4 A. Yes. They would survey the movements of the Serbs, where their
5 artillery was located.
6 Q. Okay. Thank you. And with respect to your position in the Velika
7 Glogova area, I take it you say you moved around a lot. Where exactly did
8 you move around to? What areas?
9 A. In the Velika Glogova area.
10 Q. Did you go in the woods, where the other group was?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And did you go to --
13 A. The Velika Glogova area is mostly a wooded area, maybe not 100 per
14 cent, but about 60 to 70 per cent of the Velika Glogova territory is
15 covered by woods.
16 Q. And did you go to the other group in the location of Vladusici?
17 A. I did not, no.
18 Q. And this -- all right. Thank you, and as you're moving around in
19 this area, what was your function?
20 A. It was our function to repel any possible Serb attacks, which
21 actually happened on a daily basis, and it was to fight. That was our
22 function more or less.
23 Q. And would you consider your function, in terms of perhaps
24 preventing the Serbs from entering this area, the Velika Glogova area, and
25 the other areas where the groups were?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And how many men performed those duties along with you?
3 A. I already said several times that I didn't know the number, that
4 the numbers changed from hour to hour, from day to day. People would be
5 killed, wounded. It was always changing.
6 Q. And did you have a weapon during that period of time?
7 A. Are you thinking of me?
8 Q. Yes, just you.
9 A. Let me recall when I managed to get ahold of a rifle. I think
10 that it was sometime in late May, I think. I don't know the exact date,
11 the exact period but I think it was sometime after the 20th of May.
12 Q. And I recall your testimony from yesterday that not all of the men
13 in the groups were armed. Would that be correct? And you had --
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And you had about ten rifles per group?
16 A. Well, I said more or less, about some ten rifles there were all
17 together, including the ones that were homemade, the Kuburas.
18 Q. Okay. Thank you. So when you say ten rifles all together, ten
19 rifles all together in your group, would that be correct? We are not
20 talking about all four groups.
21 A. Yes. I think including the hunting weapons and the homemade
22 weapons, yes, there were that many. Later, as the fighting progressed,
23 of course, people got killed in order to obtain rifles. If we managed to
24 capture some rifles, then the men who did not have any weapons would take
25 the weapons and then they would continue to fight with them.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Ms. Vidovic?
2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, that was exactly the
3 purpose of my objection. The Prosecutor needs to specify when putting
4 these questions, about the number of weapons, about which period she is
5 asking for, in order that the witness does not get confused. But
6 evidently he understood and he answered that particular question.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Any time that is convenient for you,
8 Ms. Richardson?
9 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, we can break now, and I'm leaning
10 towards one break because I think we are moving much slower than I
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Then we go ahead for another 15 minutes.
13 MS. RICHARDSON: Okay. All right.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: And then we have one break. All right?
15 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Registrar, correct me if I'm wrong, when we have one
17 break only, usually we -- past half ten, until what time? Because I can't
18 remember. We have the break at what time usually? I think it's quarter
19 to, all right. So we go another 15 minutes and then we have a 30-minute
21 MS. RICHARDSON: Fine. Thank you, Your Honour. Just -- thank
23 Q. Getting back to the question about the weapons or the rifles,
24 including those that were homemade, in what period of time did your group
25 have about ten or so rifles? Are we talking in May, and June as well?
1 A. Yes. Yes. June -- May, sorry, May.
2 Q. And you managed to acquire more weapons in June?
3 A. There was daily fighting, and our men were being killed as well as
4 Serb men, when they were attacking us and of course we would seize some
6 Q. And I take it that there was hand-to-hand combat in these daily
8 A. Yes, yes.
9 Q. And is this how you yourself managed to obtain a rifle?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And do you recall exactly what -- where you were, what area you
12 were fighting in, when you acquired this rifle?
13 A. It was in the area of Velika Glogova.
14 Q. So by July of 1992, approximately how many weapons would you say
15 your group had?
16 A. Until the end of July or do you have the entire month in mind?
17 Q. Let's talk of it in terms of the period of the month. The end of
19 A. Probably around 15 to 20, somewhere in that region. I'm not
21 Q. And in August, early part of August, and let me just specify: By
22 the 8th of August, how many weapons did your group have?
23 A. Perhaps additional two or three rifles, and some got damaged, say,
24 when a shrapnel would hit a rifle or so, and some got lost, too. Or, for
25 example, a fighter of ours was killed and we couldn't pull out his body so
1 his rifle remained behind as well. So the number of rifles changed as
3 Q. And did the other three groups, the ones in the woods, Cizmici and
4 Vladusici, did they also manage to acquire more weapons over the period of
5 May, beginning of May, they had a few, I believe you said, about ten?
6 Would that be correct?
7 A. More or less, it was happening the same way, changed slightly but
8 on the same principle as with the group in Velika Glogova.
9 Q. And did they also manage to acquire more weapons over the period
10 of time in the similar manner that your group did? When I say similar
11 manner, I mean in fighting, if a soldier died, et cetera.
12 A. I'm not quite certain that they could -- that they were able to
13 seize a larger number of weapons. We would usually seize one or two
14 rifles. And if we seized one rifle, it would usually go to two men, and
15 I'm not certain as to how they could have been able to seize greater
17 Q. And the rifles that you were able to seize - your group, I'm
18 referring to now - were they automatic, semi-automatic rifles?
19 A. There were a few automatic and a few semi-automatic rifles. The
20 Kuburas I mentioned, we didn't have enough ammunition for them. They used
21 hunting ammunition.
22 Q. And I take it the other groups were also involved in hand-to-hand
23 combat with the Serb in their areas during the month of May, June and
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Now, you mentioned that there were two binoculars. Now, could you
2 tell us which groups had the binoculars? You testified yesterday that a
3 military binocular had been seized during one of the encounters with the
4 Serbs and then there was a hunting binocular. Which group had the
6 A. No. I didn't say that. I said a pair of binoculars was military
7 and one was hunting binoculars, and those belonged to my brother.
8 Q. He had them both?
9 A. No. He was a hunter and he had the hunting binoculars in his
10 possession and we seized the other one.
11 Q. So your group had two binoculars?
12 A. No. One set of binoculars. And the other one was given to the
13 other group. A person took the other a pair to Vladusici and the other
14 pair of binoculars remained with our group.
15 Q. Thank you. Now the persons who owned -- not owned, who used the
16 binoculars, was it usually the same person or would different individuals
17 use to reconnoiter the areas?
18 A. Various, different people.
19 Q. Did you use them as well?
20 A. Not too often, or very little.
21 Q. Now, as the leader of the group, what did Ejub Golic do with the
22 information that was being given to him from the different groups?
23 A. He would receive that information and he would pick a person to go
24 to the other group, to tell them what was happening where, and then the
25 other group would then send their person because they were more familiar
1 with their area.
2 Q. I would just like to briefly ask you about the different
3 encounters that you had. When I say you, your group, had with the Serbs.
4 Do you recall an encounter in Hranca in July of 1992?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Did you have an encounter in Hranca at all?
7 A. I don't know what period you have in mind.
8 Q. All right. In July of 1992.
9 A. They were attacking us from that area. They were attacking us
10 from that area.
11 Q. Okay. But did you actually go into that area or have an encounter
12 in the vicinity of Hranca?
13 A. No.
14 Q. What about Polom [sic]?
15 A. No. That was quite distant from where we were, Buljim.
16 Q. What about -- well, let me ask you this: What areas did you have
17 the encounters in, your group?
18 A. Velika Glogova.
19 Q. It was only in Velika Glogova?
20 A. Do you have our group in mind?
21 Q. Yes, your group.
22 A. Yes, yes.
23 Q. Did you travel outside of that particular area to an area of
25 A. What period do you have in mind?
1 Q. In June of 1992.
2 A. No.
3 Q. What about the other groups? Do you know if they themselves were
4 engaging in contact with the Serbs during that period of time in that
5 area? Fighters.
6 A. No. I'm not familiar with that. I can't say either yes or no.
7 Q. All right. But you yourself -- well, did you ever go to
9 A. Ever?
10 Q. During 1992.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Okay. And when was this?
13 A. It was on the 8th of August.
14 Q. All right. I'd like to talk to you about the 8th of August.
15 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I think this is a good time to take
16 a break, actually, because I'm changing the subject matter.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. We'll have a 30-minute break. Thank
19 --- Break taken at 10.44 a.m.
20 --- On resuming at 11.16 a.m.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Richardson.
22 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you. Thank you.
23 Q. Sir, I'd like to ask you about the -- moving to a different area,
24 and ask you about the attack that took place on the 8th of August, of
25 which you were involved in. Now, you testified yesterday that there was
1 daily shelling in Cizmici and the shelling was from -- in particular with
2 respect to Cizmici, that it was coming from Bezrani [phoen] and you also
3 talked about the fact that Nurif Rizvanovic from Tuzla arrived with
4 approximately 400 armed soldiers. Do you recall that testimony? And if
5 you could just tell me yes or no, we do have a lot to cover, whether you
7 A. Yes, I do recall but I didn't understand the name you mentioned,
8 from what area.
9 Q. Okay. You said you were being shelled from Cizmici --
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Nurif Rizvanovic from Tuzla.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What was the direction they were
12 shelling us from? That's what I didn't understand.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: The time being is whether you recall having
14 testified on this yesterday. That's all she wants to know. You remember
15 testifying on this.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
17 MS. RICHARDSON:
18 Q. And you recall - and you said that 400 armed men came with
19 Mr. Nurif Rizvanovic and they were armed from Tuzla, yes or no?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And you testified that Mr. Rizvanovic and Dr. Mujkanovic was in
22 Konjevic Polje?
23 A. Yes. I heard -- yes, yes.
24 Q. And they had been there for three or four days before August 8th,
1 A. I said that Nurif Rizvanovic came to the area of Konjevic Polje
2 and in amongst his group there was Dr. Mujkanovic, three to four days
4 Q. Let's do this. You need to be brief in your answer and I will ask
5 you if you need to provide further explanation. If you just answer with a
6 yes or no what I have stated to you, instead of repeating it, okay?
7 So my next question is, you also stated that Nurif had been told
8 by people who had -- who had been deported to Kladanj -- my colleague is
9 assisting me with the pronunciation, Kladanj, and that your area was being
10 shelled; is that correct?
11 A. No.
12 Q. What -- okay. What did -- what did the people from Kladanj tell
13 Nurif Rizvanovic?
14 A. I said that people from Glogova, on the 9th of May, that is a part
15 of the people, were -- was collected by the Serbs and transferred to
16 Kladanj and then they conveyed to Nurif Rizvanovic the situation, our
17 situation, in Glogova.
18 Q. So it was from these deported individuals from Glogova that he
19 learned what your situation was? Would that be correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And you further stated that on the 8th of August, that the people
22 from Lunici -- Lolici, would that be the correct name, the people from --
23 A. Yes, yes.
24 Q. From Lolici told Mr. Rizvanovic about loud artillery fire coming
25 from the direction of Sikirici -- Siljkovici.
1 A. Siljkovici. He said that he was somewhere in the area, I don't
2 know precisely where, and that he was told by those people that the
3 shelling was from Siljkovici, Jezestica, and Kravica.
4 Q. Now, prior to Mr. Rizvanovic's participation in this attack, you
5 don't know if he had spoken with anyone in Srebrenica, do you?
6 A. No, I don't know.
7 Q. And you don't know if he had spoken with anyone in Konjevic Polje
8 about Siljkovici or Sikiric?
9 A. No.
10 Q. And you don't know whether he'd spoken with anyone from Suceska or
12 A. No.
13 Q. Now, you also stated that he went in -- he went in the direction
14 of Sukurici [phoen], or I should restate, Sikiric --
15 A. Siljkovici.
16 Q. And the reason that he had done that was because there was
17 artillery located there. Would that be correct?
18 A. I don't know whether that was his reason. I said that he moved
19 towards us to help us. From the direction of Siljkovici, where the
20 artillery was, via Djermani. He came to our aid.
21 Q. And had he contacted you or Ejub Golic during -- prior -- prior to
22 him going to Siljkovici, did he contact either you or Ejub Golic?
23 A. No.
24 Q. And the 400 men that he was with, you indicated some of them were
25 from your area, there were pictures shown yesterday and you indicated that
1 there were some people that you knew.
2 A. Yes. I don't know whether at that moment he had 400 men. I know
3 that 200 came to Cizmici. I don't know where the rest was, but he brought
4 400 to the area of Konjevic Polje.
5 Q. He brought 400 to the area of Konjevic Polje or Cizmici?
6 A. To the area of Konjevic Polje.
7 Q. All right. And you don't know where the other 200 went?
8 A. I don't know who they were.
9 Q. And you don't know whether they were engaged in attacks in other
10 areas in that region?
11 A. No.
12 Q. And you stated that Ejub Golic went towards -- and yourself
13 included, went towards Veresinje?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Now, prior to doing -- to doing that, did you speak with Nurif
17 A. No.
18 Q. And what time did you go towards this area?
19 A. I can't recall precisely at what time. So the shelling was heavy
20 on the areas I mentioned yesterday but I don't know what time of day it
22 Q. And you said that there were about 100 to 150 men and only a third
23 of them were armed?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And when Nurif Rizvanovic went towards Sikirici, you don't know
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 what time he went there, do you?
2 A. No, no.
3 Q. But it was on the same day?
4 A. It was on the same day.
5 Q. And you stated that you left the area of Veresinje because your
6 friend had stepped on a mine and you had to take him back. Would that be
8 A. Yes. We were in the area of Veresinje moving towards Hrastik. I
9 don't know how far it was exactly but we could see it and we came across a
10 minefield and then I returned.
11 Q. Okay. And what time was that?
12 A. I can't say. I didn't have a watch.
13 Q. Well, how far into the battle was your friend injured?
14 A. The attack began in the morning, and I never wear a watch so I
15 really don't know what time of day it was. I don't have a watch even
16 today. I never used to wear a watch.
17 Q. Well, how long had you been fighting, engaged in combat, before
18 your friend stepped on the mine? Was it an hour, two hours later?
19 A. Approximately two, two and a half hours. I believe that's how
20 long the fighting lasted, in my estimate.
21 Q. That's how long you stayed or how long the fighting started?
22 That's how long you stayed? That's what I'd like to know.
23 A. The time between the moment we started moving forward and then the
24 fighting itself and up to the moment when people stepped on the mines.
25 That's the entire period.
1 Q. So you stayed for the entire battle?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Okay. That's what I'm seeking. So at some point you left before
4 the attack was over, would that be correct, to take your friend back
5 because you were concerned about him?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And the fighting continued in that area?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Did you have radio communication in your group? Did you have
10 Motorolas or what is referred to as the RUP if you know what that is?
11 A. No.
12 Q. But at some point you later did come in possession of this -- of
13 radio communication following this attack?
14 A. No. We had no electricity. If you have a certain battery in
15 mind, we had no electricity. We couldn't charge them.
16 Q. Well, did you have them? Did you have radios?
17 A. No.
18 Q. So leaving aside electricity, you had no radios?
19 A. No.
20 Q. You didn't have any radios up until, let's say, for all of 1992?
21 A. We never had any.
22 Q. All right. I'd like to refer you back to your testimony. I'm
23 reading from page 39 yesterday's transcript. And keep in mind I'm not
24 talking about August 8th at this point. I'm talking about later on in the
1 "Question: There was a" -- I won't read out the whole question
2 but I'll go to line 21. "Witness, were you attacked on the 31st of
3 December 1992, as stated in a report? And you were shown a particular
5 Do you recall being attacked on the 31st of December?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And in response, you said, "Yes, they attacked us on the 31st of
8 December and there were thousands of shells that landed in the area where
9 we were and they kept repeating by radio communication, 'this is your new
10 year's present.' .
11 The question was, "Can you remember the direction of the attack?"
12 Answer: "The directions came from Hranca, Kravica, Jezestica,
13 that is from all directions."
14 A. No, no.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: He's not agreeing. I notice that the accused --
16 sorry, that the witness was not agreeing with what you were stating. So I
17 would suggest that we first give him the opportunity to state where he
18 would like to register disagreement.
19 MS. RICHARDSON: Indeed, Your Honour.
20 Q. Please go ahead, sir.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: And I think I know.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, may I say something?
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes, go ahead.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I never said that they informed us
25 via radio communications. They were shouting that over the lines. They
1 were throwing the shells across and because they were close they were
2 shouting, well, "This is for you for the new year." But there were no
3 radio communications involved.
4 Q. So there was not correct when you said this yesterday and it was
5 recorded as radio communications, that's not correct? I'm quoting your
6 own words. Are you saying you didn't say that or are you saying that this
7 is not correct?
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Can we read specifically from yesterday's, or
9 whenever it was, transcript? Because I obviously do not -- but can you
10 read again what you have in the transcript.
11 MS. RICHARDSON: I can.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: And from which line to which line so that the
13 Defence can actually.
14 MS. RICHARDSON: I'm reading from page 39, beginning at line 21,
15 there was a question, this is the --
16 JUDGE AGIUS: This is yesterday's?
17 MS. RICHARDSON: There is yesterday's transcript. It's -- the
18 question was, "Witness, were you attacked on the 31st of December 1992, as
19 stated in the report?
20 "Answer: Yes. They attacked us on the 31st of December and there
21 were thousands of shells that landed in the area where we were and they
22 kept repeating by radio communications, this is your New Year's present."
23 And that's in the transcript from yesterday, recorded as what was
24 stated by this witness.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, now, Madam Vidovic?
1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, unfortunately when I'm
2 examining in chief I'm not able to follow the transcript. However, the
3 witness did not say anything like that and we will ask for the audio tape
4 in order to check that. He said that they were shouting over the lines.
5 He didn't mention radio communications.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Let's proceed. In the meantime, please,
7 the technicians prepare the audio from yesterday, and we will revisit this
8 topic or this particular point when we have that available. All right?
9 In the meantime please let's go ahead. It's an important matter,
10 obviously, and I prefer to have available -- how long would the
11 technicians require?
12 Do you have -- all right. Okay. Because we can actually go into
13 the transcript and give him exactly the time when these words were
14 supposedly or allegedly said, and we can go straight to that part of the
15 transcript -- of the video recording. Yes, Ms. Richardson, please proceed
16 with something else unless this really disrupts your -- I wouldn't like to
17 disrupt your cross-examination.
18 MS. RICHARDSON: No, Your Honour, this is fine. I think I can
20 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.
21 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, at this time I would like to have
22 the witness be shown P84. The Territorial Defence municipal staff
23 Srebrenica. Titled, "memo pad." And it is in Sanctions, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.
25 MS. RICHARDSON: All right, the B/C/S or the English translations,
1 ERN is 0211-5040-02115173. And the B/C/S -- excuse me, I'm sorry, I stand
2 corrected. That's the B/C/S, I'm told. Just a moment, Your Honour.
3 [Prosecution counsel confer]
4 MS. RICHARDSON: I just stand corrected on the ERN numbers.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Can I ask for the assistance of either Prosecution
6 or Defence? You have located where that extract is from. What the
7 technicians require is the exact time, so please go into yesterday's -- I
8 could do it myself but I either do this or follow what is happening.
9 MR. JONES: It's 11.05.10, I think, according to what I see.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: So it's 11.05 --
11 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour it starts at 11.07.4.
12 MR. JONES: Sometimes they are not in sequence.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I know. And yesterday I think you had a
14 problem in the beginning, or was it not?
15 MR. JONES: Yes, it depends on when one logs on to the system.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Anyway, from 11.00 to 11.15. That would cover it
17 for sure.
18 MR. DI FAZIO: Certainly.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: All right, from 11.00 to 11.15. Thank you. And
20 thanks for your cooperation.
21 MS. RICHARDSON: All right. Your Honour, I would like the witness
22 to be directed to ERN number 02115093 and the English, it's 03090742
23 [sic]. Just to take you to the beginning of the minutes, this is from
24 December 10th 1992 of the minutes of the Srebrenica OS staff meeting held
25 on the 10th of December 1992. And it is page 38. And it is in Sanction.
1 I see. All right. I'm just being instructed to give corrected ERN
2 numbers. The ERN number would be 5 -- excuse me, 02115092.
3 So -- and I'm reading towards the end of that particular page.
4 Q. Now, sir, if you would look at the -- towards the end of that
5 page, it says KM Pale, Glogova, RUP/from Cizmici goes to Glogova,
6 stationary station on Pirica Brdo [phoen]. Now, if you would look at the
7 next page -- before you answer my question, sir --
8 A. I'm sorry, I didn't hear the beginning. There was some kind of
9 interference. I really couldn't hear the beginning of what you were
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Unfortunately -- yes, I can actually read it. She
12 asked -- Madam Richardson asked you as follows, sir, and she said "Now,
13 sir, if you would look at the -- towards the end of the page, it says, KM
14 Pale, Glogova, RUP from Cizmici, goes to Glogova, stationary station on
15 Pirica Brdo."
16 "Now, if you would look at the next page, before you answer my
17 question" -- and that's where she was stopped. So please now refer him to
18 the next page.
19 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: And it starts with ambush from Bratunac.
21 Yes, Madam Vidovic?
22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would just like to
23 mention that in the Bosnian version, it does not say "in Glogova," it just
24 says "in GL." And it does not say that the RUP is from Cizmici. GL in
25 that area could mean all kinds of things.
1 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I would appreciate if counsel not
2 make submissions.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: But, but, but, wait, wait, wait. Let's -- let me
4 see the original on the ELMO, please. Because if she is correct, you can
5 ask the question what he thinks that GL means. If there is no RUP, you
6 cannot suggest it to the witness. So --
7 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, the point is taken, if the
8 translation is correct. What my objection was to the counsel stating for
9 in the witness's presence that GL could mean anything, which could suggest
10 to the witness --
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Probably it will. I mean, in their language, one --
12 a single thing can be described in something like ten words. Sometimes 50
14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour --
15 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, please. I can't even see Cizmici. I
16 can see Pale. Yes, Glogova, K4.
17 JUDGE ESER: Cizmici, at the end of the line.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: It is here but I don't -- I don't -- I don't see
19 RU -- unless the -- I don't see it. Where is the RUB?
20 JUDGE ESER: The end of the line.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: But there is Cizmici but not RUB.
22 MS. RICHARDSON: RUP, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: RUP. Yeah. I don't see it. And we have to be
24 precise. I mean -- yes.
25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I don't even see the
1 word RUP here but a very longer word which we cannot read as RUP without
2 seeing the person who actually wrote it. I cannot read it as RUP. It
3 says [B/C/S spoken] Then it says full stop, and then there is a word of
4 five letters and then a much longer word and then it says something [B/C/S
6 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't know. I can't help you because it's
7 definitely not my area of specialisation Ms. Richardson, but if it's
8 not important or that important let's move. And go straight to the
10 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, Your Honour, we can move.
11 Q. If you -- if you look towards the next page, it says Glogova,
13 JUDGE AGIUS: The third -- the third part of that -- the third
14 paragraph of that.
15 MS. RICHARDSON:
16 Q. And it lists just before the name Glogova, there is -- it says one
17 station, Mandic, one RUP 12, Andrici, hand-held set. Do you see that?
18 JUDGE AGIUS: We have to go to the next page, yeah. That's he's
19 seeing it, yes, do you see that or not?
20 Yes, Ms. Vidovic?
21 Put it on the ELMO, please.
22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, Your Honours,
23 Your Honours, please, they should look through these documents. It does
24 not say "stanica" again, it simply says "one ST." That does not have to
25 mean stanica, station. They should really read exactly what it says in
1 the document. In the Bosnian it never says "stanica," "station" and that
2 is why I asked for this document to be reviewed, the English version of
3 the document to be reviewed.
4 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, let me make a suggestion, in the
5 interests of time, this is really -- I'll get back to this document on
6 something else and I'll move on to the other question.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.
8 MR. JONES: May I, Your Honour, just one comment which I think
9 emerges from this, is that the problem is this interpretation is
10 interpretive in the sense that whoever has produced the English
11 version --
12 MS. RICHARDSON: I hate to interrupt but perhaps --
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Let him finish, please. Please let him finish.
14 MR. JONES: It's simply there: We can see in many cases where
15 there is a question mark and the person translating this has made a stab,
16 had a guess on what the expansion should be, and that's -- to then put
17 that to the witness he's not being -- basically, the original is not being
18 put to him. It's someone's interpretation of what the words might stand
19 for. That's the problem.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: But the problem is much more limited; however, I do
21 agree that there is a problem. And it's endemic, I think, but the problem
22 is least to the witness because at least he's got the original in front of
23 him, which unfortunately I don't rely upon as we go along unless my
24 attention is drawn -- when I say "my," it's our attention is drawn to the
25 need to refer to the original. But the thing is this: If it's important
1 let's go ahead with it. If it's not important, let's move,
2 Ms. Richardson.
3 MS. RICHARDSON: My only question is --
4 [Prosecution counsel confer]
5 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I just -- Your Honour, we can --
6 JUDGE AGIUS: What were you trying? If I may ask you. I know I
7 don't have a right to ask you, but what were you trying to elicit from the
9 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, my only question to the witness is
10 whether or not he was aware that Cizmici or the area of Glogova had
11 communication equipment.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: But then put the question straight and forward to
13 him and then the rest can become a submission.
14 MS. RICHARDSON: Well, that's my question, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.
16 MS. RICHARDSON:
17 Q. I believe, sir, you've heard my question. Do you know if in
18 December of 1992 the area of Cizmici or the wider Glogova area had
19 communication equipment?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Is that no they did not have it, or, no, you don't know?
22 A. That we didn't have any.
23 Q. Now, the other groups -- you talked about the recovery of weapons
24 by the other groups, including your group. Do you know if the other
25 groups were able to seize communication equipment during the different
1 battles that they engaged in from May up until December of 1992?
2 A. No. I didn't see it with anyone. I didn't see any radio stations
3 in anyone's possession.
4 Q. But you didn't see it in their possession but there -- you can
5 agree with me, can you not, that there is a possibility that they could
6 have been in possession of it?
7 A. No. I cannot agree because I was with Ejub Golic. I was the
8 closest there to him so I would know about it.
9 Q. But you also testify you were not with him all the time and you
10 were not privy to all of the information that he had received. You
11 previously testified to that, earlier today. So someone could have
12 recovered -- my question is: Someone could have recovered a radio from
13 one of these groups and have told him about it, and then you not be aware
14 of it. Is that not a possibility?
15 A. Well, we didn't understand each other. I was in the area of
16 Velika Glogova. Thus I was in the woods. Thus I was there with him. I
17 wasn't like a belt all the time with him, sticking to him, but mostly I
18 was there and I would know that.
19 Q. And Cizmici is seven to eight kilometres away from the area you
20 were in?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And there were armed groups there and they were engaging in battle
23 and recovering weapons from the Serbs?
24 A. There was an armed group, and not armed groups, in Cizmici, as far
25 as I know, and I would probably have seen it when I came in August. I
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 would have seen those radio stations but I never saw any.
2 Q. Well, you said in August that you were in the area of Veresinje
3 and that you took your friend back to Velika Glogova, Glogova, because he
4 had been injured so you were not privy to everything going on in that
5 attack that day, were you?
6 A. No. I didn't say it like that. I returned my friend to the area
7 of Cizmici and not to the area of Velika Glogova.
8 Q. Thank you. But my point is: Once you left the area, you don't
9 know what was going on in the area, do you? In Veresinje. Veresinje.
10 Thank you. Because you weren't there.
11 A. I found out thus that fighting was still going on. So when people
12 returned to Cizmici with Ejub Golic, they talked about what happened and I
13 said yesterday that reinforcements had come from Kravica and that they had
14 managed to push them back or return them.
15 Q. Were you aware of whether or not Nurif Rizanovic, who came to the
16 area with well-armed soldiers from the ABiH army, with weapons, do you
17 know whether they had radios?
18 A. No, I didn't see. I didn't see that group that was in Cizmici, I
19 didn't see that. I don't know about it.
20 Q. So you don't know whether Rizanovic and the soldiers from Tuzla,
21 well-armed soldiers, had radios, do you?
22 A. I don't know. I didn't see and I don't know.
23 Q. Thank you. Now, you also said that you were under the impression
24 that Rizanovic was under the command of Tuzla. Now, during the time that
25 Mr. Rizanovic was in your presence in Cizmici, how long would you say that
1 meeting or conversation that you were part of lasted?
2 A. Not long. Approximately something like, well, I don't know, I
3 didn't have a watch so I wasn't really following it but I think all of
4 that was perhaps going on until 2.00 of that same day, the 8th of August.
5 Q. And to be clear, Mr. Rizanovic and his armed men made their way
6 down to Cizmici on the very same day that they engaged in the attack in
7 Sikirici; is that correct?
8 A. In the attack at -- I didn't understand which attack you said.
9 Q. I'll repeat the question. Where did Mr. Rizanovic and his men
10 come from that day, when you met with them and there was this meeting?
11 A. Like they were in the area of Lolici and they attacked one -- one
12 of his groups attacked Siljkovici, the second group attacked Djermani and
13 Stara Jezestica, and they came to Cizmici. Thus they did not take
14 Siljkovici. There was a lot of artillery.
15 Q. I understand that but my question is, so it was the same day that
16 they ended up in Cizmici, having a conversation with Ejub Golic; is that
18 A. Yes, yes, I already said that.
19 Q. And they didn't go to Velika Glogova where Mr. Ejub Golic usually
20 stayed, did they?
21 A. That day, so -- I mean I told you that that day we were pushed out
22 of Velika Glogova. I said that we were thrown out in the -- in early
23 August from Glogova, and there was nobody in Glogova at the time of the
24 Muslims, no Muslims were in Glogova at the time.
25 Q. So, Mr. Rizanovic came directly to Cizmici where Ejub Golic and
1 other mean from his group had convened; is that correct?
2 A. Yes, yes, to Cizmici.
3 Q. Did any of the men in Ejub Golic's group participate with
4 Mr. Rizanovic in the attack that he conducted in Sikirici? Siljkovici?
5 A. Some men from Glogova were in Tuzla and they came with him. I
6 cannot recall the names of those lads now, but there were such people.
7 Q. That's not my question. My question is: Not the men from Glogova
8 who came with Mr. Rizanovic from Tuzla. I'm not talking about them. They
9 were part of the 200 well-armed soldiers. I'm talking about the group,
10 the four groups that you've talked about today, did any of those men in
11 that group participate with Mr. Rizanovic in his attack?
12 A. No.
13 Q. So Mr. Rizanovic, on his own, conducting an attack in Sukerici --
14 Siljkovici, came down to Cizmici to where Ejub Golic and the other men had
16 A. Yes. He came to Cizmici with that group of his.
17 Q. Thank you. And without having any communication with you, he came
18 straight to Cizmici?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Now --
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Any news about the video recording of yesterday?
23 Would you require time for re-examination, Ms. Vidovic?
24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours, absolutely.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: How much?
1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Let's say 20 minutes, about 20
2 minutes. Your Honours, and if I just may assist by saying that we agree,
3 if that suits the Trial Chamber, what you did at one point for two judges
4 to continue sitting so that we can continue, if this is a suitable
5 solution for the Trial Chamber.
6 [Trial chamber confers]
7 JUDGE AGIUS: We will decide that later -- on that later on.
8 Yes, Ms. Richardson?
9 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour.
10 Q. Now, you testified as well that Mr. Rizanovic and these men came,
11 about 200 or 400, you heard about 400 but you actually saw 200, they were
12 all well-armed, in uniform, and some of them wore berets? Would that be
14 Now the men in your area did not have uniforms; is that correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. All right. Now, you were -- were you in contact with any of the
17 fighters from Potocari or Pale or Suceska, in August of 1992?
18 A. No.
19 Q. And I take it you were not in contact with the Territorial Defence
20 in Srebrenica either?
21 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not understand whether the
22 witness said yes or no.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: The witness said "ne."
24 MS. RICHARDSON:
25 Q. And you had not seen Naser Oric prior to August of 1992? Would
1 that be correct?
2 A. No, no. I already said I saw him for the first time in January.
3 Q. And you don't know if the members of the Suceska TO, Potocari TO,
4 or the Pale TO, or from Srebrenica itself possessed uniforms, do you?
5 A. I never saw uniforms, ever, on anyone.
6 Q. All right.
7 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, at this point I'd like a videotape
8 to be shown to the witness.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Which videotape is it? I'm asking you for the
11 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, Your Honour, 329.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: 329.
13 [Videotape played]
14 MS. RICHARDSON: We are having problems with the sound at the
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Until this is fixed, let's move to another
17 question, please.
18 MS. RICHARDSON: No problem, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: What I suggest is this. I'm actually discussing
20 with Judge Eser, even if we agree that we proceed, two of us, alone, we'll
21 still have to have a break, which, considering that we have gone beyond --
22 I mean it will be more than an hour and a half, we will be required to be
23 of 30 minutes which would only leave us with about 10 minutes.
24 So what I suggest is that you face reality. Either we decide here
25 and now that this witness will stay here and will continue on Monday,
1 which I wouldn't like to see happening, or else you reorganise your
2 cross-examination and limit yourself to what you consider to be more
3 important or more relevant, and the Defence will do the same and possibly
4 cut down on the 20 minutes and everyone tries to sacrifice. Do you have
5 any questions yourself? Because I may have but I'm prepared to renounce
6 them so that we finish with there witness by 1.00.
7 MS. RICHARDSON: Well, Your Honour, at this point I'm moving as
8 quickly as I can and I --
9 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm not criticising you, please don't misunderstand
11 MS. RICHARDSON: I have taken out some portions already so
12 everything that I do plan on referring to or asking the witness about is--
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead. Let's not lose more time but the
14 situation is as follows: That if you -- I'll ask you whether you're
15 prepared to stop 20 minutes before 1.00. Then if you're not, that
16 basically means that we are going to spill over on to Monday. There is no
17 question about it.
18 MS. RICHARDSON: I'll take that into consideration as I'm moving.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay.
20 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, we still don't have the sound. So
21 let me see if there is another area I can cover.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Has it been fixed? No? No. It hasn't been fixed
23 so let's move.
24 MS. RICHARDSON:
25 Q. Now, sir, do you recall -- do you know anyone from -- who lives
1 in Pale?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Now, following the -- following the attack on the 8th of August,
4 you stated that individuals followed Zulfo Kumic [phoen] ...
5 I'll repeat the question. There came a point that people left
6 Cizmici and returned to Velika Glogova. Isn't that correct?
7 A. What period do you have in mind?
8 Q. The period following August of 1992. Because I believe you stated
9 that Cizmici was overcrowded and that people returned to Velika Glogova.
10 A. Yes. After -- after -- after that, late summer, early fall.
11 Q. And they were -- they were led by a man called Zulfo Comic?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And Ejub Golic stayed in Cizmici?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Now, I'd like to take you to December of 1992, the 23rd and the
16 24th. Now, you stated that the area of Cizmici had been facing daily
17 shelling. Would that be correct? From the Serbs.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And that these Serbs were in the areas of Kravica, Jezestica, and
20 they were heavily armed. Would you agree with that statement?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. They had -- you had encountered air strikes, they had infantry
23 fighting, and very -- I think a lot more sophisticated weapons that your
24 group had, such as automatic rifles and heavy guns?
25 A. Yes. They had planes, tanks, everything. Praga's. We only had
1 infantry weapons.
2 Q. Now, and you said that they even had help from Serbia, correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And at this time, how many men -- no. I'll rephrase the question.
5 You stated also that there were about 50 able-bodied men -- 500,
6 excuse me -- and that you possessed about 100 to 150 weapons.
7 A. I didn't say precisely how many men there were, but I did say that
8 there were between 100 and 150 pieces of guns, rifles.
9 Q. All right. And you said that these -- these men, able-bodied men,
10 were registered?
11 A. No. I never said that.
12 Q. All right. At this time I'm going to read from yesterday's
13 transcript, page 33, line 22. When questioned, "When you say people --
14 when you say 'people,' what do you mean? Men, women?"
15 "I mean able-bodied men, those registered as age-bodied men.
16 There were about 500 such men, 400 to 500. I don't know the exact
17 number." Do you recall saying that?
18 A. No.
19 Q. So the transcript of your testimony from yesterday is
21 A. No. I didn't say that in that way. I said I didn't mention the
22 500 men. And you can read out precisely what I said yesterday.
23 Q. I have just read it out, sir. Do you want me to read it out
25 A. Yes, please do.
1 Q. No problem. "When you say people what do you mean? Men, women?"
2 That's the question to you. Your answer was: "I mean men, able-bodied
3 men, those registered as able-bodied men. There were about 500 such men,
4 4, 500, I don't know the exact number." Do you recall saying that?
5 A. I never said they were registered or that somebody put them on a
6 certain list. I just said that those were able-bodied men. Nobody ever
7 registered them anywhere.
8 Q. So --
9 JUDGE AGIUS: That's the substance of your objection?
10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I believe it's an
11 erroneous transcript.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: And I would suspect that it is indeed a case of an
13 erroneous transcript.
14 MS. RICHARDSON: Well, Your Honour, if that's what the witness has
15 said, that's fine.
16 Q. And when you say able-bodied men, are you talking about men who
17 are fit to fight and can engage in battle?
18 A. Those were men, all men, of that area. This is what I meant.
19 Q. All right.
20 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, at this time I believe the video --
21 JUDGE AGIUS: No it's not.
22 MS. RICHARDSON: All right. Okay.
23 Q. Now, with respect to the Glogova attack, you stated that Ejub
24 Golic had a meeting and that it was decided that you would do something to
25 stop the shelling and the attacks from Kravica and Jezestica; is that
2 A. Which meeting do you have in mind? And with whom? I said that he
3 came in front of a group and that he said we either go to their assistance
4 or we let them all be killed. This is what I meant.
5 Q. Indeed. And this was with respect to the attack of the 23rd,
6 starting -- of the 23rd into the 24th. Would that be correct?
7 A. Yes. On the 23rd, in the evening, or around midnight, we started
8 moving towards Glogova from Cizmici.
9 Q. All right. Did you have any other assistance, other than the 500
10 able-bodied men and the 100 to 150 weapons that they carried when you
11 began this attack?
12 A. No.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: If it's convenient for you we will need to stop for
14 about 15 to 20 seconds. Yesterday's video recording of the sitting is
15 available. They will require just that amount of seconds roughly. Yes,
16 Madam Vidovic?
17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I object to the
18 characterisation of the Prosecutor in her questions. She repeated several
19 times, "attack on Glogova," whereas the witness kept saying yesterday that
20 they were attacked by the Serbs and that they then launched a counter
21 attack hence the question cannot be asked in that sense of an attack on
22 Glogova on the 23rd. There was characterised differently.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Please refer to it as a counterattack.
24 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I will. And just for the record, I
25 made myself clear that they had been shelling on them and something and
1 they decided to just --
2 JUDGE AGIUS: But please refer to it as a counterattack.
3 MS. RICHARDSON: Counterattack, I will use.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Shall we stop for 15 to 20 seconds?
5 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: So we are going to stop now so that they put
7 the ...
8 [Videotape played]
9 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's question, does the Chamber expect
10 to us interpret?
11 [Videotape played]
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I think we need interpretation, yes. But when
13 we reach that part, please tell us because I -- we need to know. Let's
14 proceed. Are we stuck?
15 [Videotape played]
16 THE INTERPRETER: "Witness, we were discussing the document of the
17 28th of December 1992. Concerning that I wanted to ask you this: After
18 the 28th of December 1992, that is after the date of the report, did the
19 situation change for you, who had Glogova in your hands? Did it grow
20 worse or did it become better?
21 "Answer: It grew worse.
22 "Question: Do you remember particularly when it grew worse?
23 "Answer: Yes, I do, on the 29th of December of 1992.
24 "Question: All right. As of the 29th of December onwards, was
25 the situation difficult or grave only on that day or did it -- was it
1 becoming increasingly serious?
2 "Answer: It increased, that is it became graver on the following
4 "Question: Your Honours I would like to show another document to
5 the witness. I would kindly ask the usher to distribute it.
6 "This is a Bratunac Brigade command document dated 31st December
7 1992 and the number is 04363060. It is a combat report sent to the Drina
8 Corps command by the Bratunac Brigade.
9 "Witness, I will quote item 1 and item 2. It states, 'Up until
10 12.00, we did not encounter any significant enemy resistance. Stronger
11 enemy forces are to be found on the road between Bratunac and Kravica in
12 the place of Glogova. Our forces took over the elevation point Ladja 436
13 as well as elevation point KIK by the Lomanac river. For the time being,
14 the activities continue as planned. In Bratunac there are 225 fighters in
15 the action, 100 soldiers -- fighters participate of the infantry company.
16 Antiaircraft platoon PAT 20-millimetre Praga, BOFORS, Bowing, and three
17 tanks.' .
18 "Witness, please, can you tell us whether those Serb forces
19 attacked you on the 31st of December 1992 as was stated in the
21 "Answer: Yes, they were attacking us on the 31st of December.
22 Thousands of shells landed in the area where we were, and they were
23 shouting across the lines, "This is your new years present."
24 "Question: Can you remember where the attacks came from?"
25 JUDGE AGIUS: I think we can stop there. This is basically what
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 we needed to hear. All right? So there is now what seems to be a
2 confirmation that there was a -- transcript was -- did not reflect
3 actually what the witness said.
4 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, thank you, Your Honour, for that
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I think it's very useful for you and for us and
7 for the Defence of course. So let's proceed.
8 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank the technicians for having done this very
10 quickly and so efficiently and the interpreters for having gone through it
11 again. Thanks.
12 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour --
13 JUDGE AGIUS: You were still trying to work out miracles and have
14 this video --
15 MS. RICHARDSON: I can move. I can move. It's not a problem.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thanks.
17 MS. RICHARDSON:
18 Q. Now, just keeping with the events of the 24th, just to recap, you
19 stated that the Serbs were heavily armed and we talked about the artillery
20 that they had and assistance from Kravica, Jezestica and Serbia et cetera.
21 We talked about the fact that there were 500 men or so, approximate, in
22 your group led by Ejub Golic and there were about 100 and -- to 150
23 weapons. Would that be correct?
24 A. I did say that concerning weapons, but I didn't mention the
25 precise number of men. I didn't know that then and I don't know it now.
1 Q. So are you saying that there were not approximately 400 to 500
3 A. I don't know what the number was.
4 Q. So you're retracting what you said yesterday in response to there
5 being 4 to 500 men and you're now saying you don't know how many there
7 A. I am not retracting anything. I didn't mention the number. The
8 group was large but I didn't mention figures.
9 Q. Just so that don't misunderstand me, I'm talking about approximate
10 numbers, not exact numbers, approximate. So were there approximately 400
11 to 500 men, as you stated yesterday?
12 A. I don't know. You keep insisting and wanting me to say something.
13 I can say that in my estimate, there were 4 to 500, but that's not what I
14 said yesterday.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's move.
16 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, we can move, indeed.
17 Q. So, sir, are you -- just to sum up the Glogova matter, you managed
18 to successfully liberate Glogova or to take it from -- out of the hands of
19 the Serbs on the 24th; is that correct?
20 A. So the group of people headed by Comic Zulfo as well as civilians
21 were in Glogova, and they had already been encircled, meant for this to be
22 destroyed. We started moving on the 23rd of December of 1992. We fought
23 in the morning, next to the road.
24 Q. And you were told what areas to cover of Glogova, I mean, you
25 didn't all go in the same direction, did you, all 400 to 500 of you?
1 A. We were supposed to come in to deblock the road, going through
3 Q. So you had a specific task? I mean the groups.
4 A. It is no task. We went to free those people and to drive the
5 Serbs away.
6 Q. And you succeeded in doing that with about a hundred to 150 rifles
7 and an unknown number of men, against the Serbs' weaponry, tanks, air
8 supports, et cetera?
9 A. Just so that we understand each other.
10 Q. Before you go into your explanation. I'd like you to answer my
11 question. I have recapped what you've told us about the number of men and
12 the number of rifles you had, and with respect to what you were facing
13 from the Serbs. So my question to you is, if you want me to repeat it:
14 With 100 to 150 rifles and approximately 4 lunch to 500 men, you were
15 successful against the Serbs who were heavily armed with weaponry and
16 antiaircraft and shelling from Serbia? You were successful, were you not?
17 That is my question.
18 A. There are five questions there.
19 Q. My question --
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Richardson wants you to explain how come that
21 you with your limited resources managed to beat the Serbs who were much
22 better equipped than you were. This is basically what is being sought.
23 Yes, Mr. Jones?
24 MR. JONES: Yes, well, Your Honour, I'm not surprised if the
25 witness has difficulty answering that question.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm not surprised either. I want to know what he
2 was going to volunteer first.
3 MR. JONES: Yes. I mean, just to take just one element of the
4 question, shelling from Serbia, you were successful, well, is he supposed
5 to -- is his answer -- if he says, Yes, we were successful, does that
6 suggest that he disabled heavy artillery in Serbia? I mean, of course,
7 Ms. Richardson is deliberately --
8 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I can --
9 MR. JONES: If I can finish my objection, please.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, please.
11 MR. JONES: Ms. Richardson is deliberately trying to characterise
12 his answer as ridiculous, 150 weapons against all this weaponry. But it's
13 not the suggestion that he went into Serbia and disabled all their heavy
14 artillery. They succeeded in whatever they were doing.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. And this is why I have tried to simplify the
16 question by asking him to try and explain. If you have an explanation,
17 how -- 400 to 500 Muslims, with about 150 rifles amongst them, managed to
18 beat the Serbs, and regain possession of Glogova. This is what you're
19 asked to explain, if you have an explanation because --
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. We started around midnight or
21 1.00 on the 23rd, from Glogova to Cizmici. Apart from the group that had
22 already been in Glogova together with the civilians. So early in the
23 morning, 5.00 or 6.00 in the morning, the fighting began. We managed to
24 push them out of Glogova, and during the day then we were attacked by the
25 aviation and artillery from Serbia. Perhaps that was the
1 misunderstanding. So not in the morning when we were actually fighting
2 them there, but later on during the day. Perhaps I wasn't very clear in
3 my answer.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Very clear now.
5 MS. RICHARDSON:
6 Q. Thank you for that clarification. And by the end of the day on
7 the 24th, you had - when I say you, the Muslim forces, fighters, groups -
8 had successfully retaken Glogova. Would that be a correct assessment of
9 the situation?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Now, I would like the witness to be shown Prosecution's Exhibit
12 P84 again. And specifically it's ERN page for the English version
13 03090746; of the B/C/S it's 02115099. And I believe it's on page 42 of
14 the English version. And we are trying to put it on Sanctions,
15 Your Honour.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's keep our fingers crossed that the translation
17 is all right this time.
18 Yes, Ms. Richardson? I don't see it on Sanction as yet, at least
19 not on mine. I'll try again. Yes, it is on Sanction now. Yes,
20 Ms. Richardson, your question.
21 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes.
22 Q. Just for the record, this is from the minutes dated the 19th,
23 1992. And my question to you, sir, before I -- before I put this document
24 to you and read from it, the Serb artillery that you were just talking
25 about that existed on the 24th, did it continue to exist thereafter? I
1 mean, the weaponry from Kravica, the Jezestica, the shelling, et cetera?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. All right. And the forces that you encountered in Glogova, were
4 you engaged in hand-to-hand battle?
5 A. Yes, yes. It is a village but we -- there was street-to-street
7 Q. And I take it there were a number of armed Serbs with their
8 semi-automatic rifles and automatic rifles?
9 A. Yes, yes.
10 Q. Now, I would refer you to the section, the portion, that begins
11 with "Naser." Do you see that?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Right after that it says "Glogova". Now, it says, and I'm reading
14 from the exhibit, "Naser, Glogova was the problem. They did not arrive --
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I see that the -- there may be a problem.
16 Yes, Ms. Vidovic?
17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I didn't understand
18 whether the Prosecutor mentioned the date to the witness concerning this
19 document. I didn't hear that.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: I think she did.
21 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I did, yes, I did say it.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm speaking from memory. 19th, I think it was, or
23 something, if I remember. I'm speaking from memory. 19th, I think.
24 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, Your Honour, I did say that. But I can
25 repeat it to the witness.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's repeat it.
2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] It is not the 19th. Please repeat.
3 It's the 22nd.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.
5 MS. RICHARDSON: I thank you, Madam for that correction. It is
6 indeed the 22nd.
7 Q. And, sir, if you read from the portion that I was just referring
8 you to, read along with me of course following the B/C/S, it says "Naser,
9 Glogova it was the problem. They did not arrive from the other side
10 because there was an ambush at Bolom [phoen]. The operation must be
11 repeated. The men from Glogova are asking to borrow 30 rifles."
12 Now, before we go any further, you had a shortage of rifles, did
13 you not, in your group?
14 A. No, no. Yes, yes. Of course, there was a shortage but I don't
15 remember this. In English it says something up here. I don't understand
16 what it says there. I don't understand what it says up in there in
18 Q. You're supposed to be reading. Don't follow along on your screen.
19 That's the English version for us English speakers. You're supposed to be
20 reading from the B/C/S version of the document that's in front of you.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Usher, could you please assist the witness.
22 MS. RICHARDSON: Supposed to locate --
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do not understand this.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's find -- you need to find ERN 02115099,
25 according to what I have here. And it's a paragraph that -- I can't read
2 MS. RICHARDSON:
3 Q. Are you able to find that? It's on the B/C/S version, 02115099,
4 and it's the very first sentence. It says, "Naser", then you see the
5 word "Glogova."
6 JUDGE AGIUS: I can see it from here, I mean, but it's he who has
7 to see it, not I. It's 3, 4, 8, 10, 11 lines from the top, I think.
8 MS. RICHARDSON: Okay. Yes.
9 Q. Now --
10 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, Your Honour, thank you for that.
11 Q. Do you see that, sir? Do you see the numbers 02 --
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Okay. Great, thank you.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Now I'll read it again: "Glogova was the problem. They did not
16 arrive from the other side because there was an ambush in Bolom. The
17 operation must be repeated. The men from Glogova are asking to borrow
18 only 30 rifles."
19 Now, my question to you is I believe you've already answered that
20 there was a shortage of rifles in Glogova, among the armed groups.
21 A. There was a shortage of rifles throughout the whole period, as far
22 as we are concerned. They didn't ask for any help. As far as I know
23 there was no request for assistance.
24 Q. Thank you. As far as you know.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: That's what he said, yes.
1 MS. RICHARDSON: Exactly.
2 Q. So Ejub Golic could have asked for help; you don't know?
3 A. I would. I mean, he was in Cizmici at the time so I would have
4 known if he had asked for help. I would have known about it.
5 Q. All right. But you were short on rifles?
6 A. We were short of rifles throughout the whole war, throughout the
7 entire 1992.
8 Q. Thank you. Now, moving further down the page, it says, "Nezad
9 [phoen] is proposing the VP confiscate weapons from citizens, Miho [phoen]
10 is requesting PVO/antiaircraft Defence of the town returns Soson's rifle.
11 Each battalion will give two rifles to Glogova -- for Glogova" - excuse me
12 - "Mirsad is asking when the rifles borrowed earlier will be returned.
13 The attack on Glogova is planned for the 24th of December 1992."
14 Now, sir, having read that, minutes from the OS staff in
15 Srebrenica on the 22nd of December, I suggest to you that your group of
16 500 men, with 150 to -- with 100 to 150 rifles had assistance from
17 Srebrenica and other forces, Muslim forces, and that is how you were able
18 to capture Glogova. Is that correct or not?
19 A. No, no.
20 Q. All right. Thank you.
21 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, we can play the video now, and I can
22 honestly say that I will not be done by 20 to, the time that you've given
24 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I think there is no option. We are not
25 going to curtail on -- given what has emerged now, I don't think that I
1 can face Ms. Vidovic and say, cut down on your 20 minutes, if you're not
2 prepared to stop 20 minutes before. So -- he will have to stay here and
3 we will continue on Monday. Because also, I mean, I have questions and I
4 wouldn't like to -- yes, Madam Vidovic?
5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I thought that I could cut it down
6 to ten minutes, if you think that that would be of any help.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's see if she finishes. I don't see
8 Ms. Richardson finishing any time near, to be honest with you.
9 MS. RICHARDSON: No, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: And I'm not going to stop you. But on the other
11 hand, if I am not going to stop you, I'm going to allow all the time that
12 the Defence requires to re-examine the witness.
13 Yes, let's see this video at last? Each time we have this video,
14 we have problems.
15 [Videotape played]
16 "... talk about the attack Jezestica. This is Ejub Golic again.
17 Rizvanovic. I explained about this. When they were supposed to go into
18 Glogova the first time, what date was this?
19 "The 8th of August 1992. Some action was also carried out on the
20 other side at that time. They were -- they were supposed to go into the
21 area of Glogova, that is Nurif Rizvanovic and the people that came with
22 him, they were supposed to go around through Buljim and Susnjari and enter
23 Glogova from there. However, what happened was that Nurif Rizvanovic fell
24 into an ambush and then tried to break through under fire but as he didn't
25 know the area very well, they didn't know the area, they had a lot of
1 problems. As the others had already come out and were waiting and, in
2 order to draw attention to themselves, they attacked. In the same way
3 there was nothing organised here, there were no orders, this was -- this
4 was done on their own initiative.
5 "Were you involved in the planning process.
6 "No. I don't know. Nobody planned this. Nobody planned this.
7 This just happened unplanned.
8 "You're telling me that Nurif came from Konjevic Polje to meet
9 up -- to coordinate an attack from one side and then Golic was attacking
10 from another side? There had to be some planning.
11 "Then you didn't translate properly. I said that Nurif Rizvanovic
12 was supposed to come from the area of Konjevic Polje.
14 "Through Buljim."
15 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, thank you. I just have a series of
16 questions with respect to that last video.
17 Q. Now, you've heard Naser Oric say with respect to Rizanovic and the
18 area he was coming from, Konjevic Polje, and that they were supposed to go
19 around Bolom but evidently there was a problem. Now, you also -- I just
20 put to you Prosecution Exhibit P84 where that's being discussed by Naser
21 Oric as well?
22 MR. JONES: Firstly, that's -- well, Your Honour, I do object.
23 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I'm not done with my question.
24 MR. JONES: Yes, but if you're putting the exhibit, it didn't say
25 Naser Oric, for a start. It says Naser and also whether it was Naser Oric
1 or not in this interview is -- hasn't been said by this witness.
2 MS. RICHARDSON: Perhaps we can go back.
3 Q. Now, do you recognise the person on the video, sir, the person
4 that's talking on the middle of the tape?
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, it's -- that's not what's being contested, I
6 think, by Mr. Jones. What's being contested by Mr. Jones is what appears
7 on the face of the relative page from P84, where it says "Naser." They
8 are not conceding that Naser means Naser Oric. I don't think he is
9 contesting that the gentleman with the long hair and broad shoulders at
10 the end of the screen is not Naser Oric.
11 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour.
12 MR. JONES: Yes. It's the first point and as far as the second,
13 it was just to note that this witness hasn't actually said who the person
15 MS. RICHARDSON: I was responding to the second point first. If
16 Mr. Jones's assertion is that the person -- that the witness hasn't said
17 it's Naser Oric on the screen, is that -- is that -- is that what the
18 point 2 was? In any event, Your Honour, we can move.
19 Q. With respect to what I read from you -- read to you from
20 Prosecution's Exhibit 84, there was a Naser and he was talking about the
21 problem at Glogova and there was an ambush at Bolom. Now, you've just
22 heard that he's again speaking about Bolom, speaking about a
23 Mr. Rizanovic, and that they were supposed to come from Konjevic Polje and
24 go around Bolom but evidently there was a problem. Now, that information
25 given by the person, Naser, in the memo pad and the person on the screen
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 that we are looking at, is, would you say, similar information being given
2 by both?
3 JUDGE AGIUS: You need the witness to tell you that?
4 MS. RICHARDSON: Well, Your Honour, I would like him --
5 JUDGE AGIUS: We have got eyes and we have got ears and we can
6 establish whether it's similar or dissimilar or, et cetera.
7 MS. RICHARDSON: That's fine, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: And draw conclusions if we need to because it may
9 not be that relevant at the end of the day.
10 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you.
11 Q. Now, were you aware, sir, that on the 8th of August, there were
12 other actions being conducted, other than the one that you were involved
13 in? Veresinje?
14 A. No, I didn't know.
15 Q. And --
16 A. I didn't get the translation of this last part.
17 Q. Okay. Were you aware --
18 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no. If he hasn't had the interpretation of this
19 last part, he needs to have it.
20 Ms. Richardson asked you the following: "Now, were you aware,
21 sir, that on the 8th of August, there were other actions being conducted,
22 other than the one that you were involved in? Veresinje?" That's what I
23 have in the transcript.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I didn't know.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So let's proceed. Did you say anything else
1 that I missed?
2 MS. RICHARDSON: No, Your Honour, that's pretty much it.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay.
4 MS. RICHARDSON:
5 Q. And did you later learn, if you didn't know it on the 8th of
6 August of 1992, that actions had been engaged in involving Muslim fighters
7 in the areas of Zaluzje, in the areas of Beleca [phoen]. Excuse me, not
8 Bileca, excuse me.
9 So just to repeat so you're not confused, the areas of Zaluzje,
10 Andrici, Kunjerac and, I believe, you've told us already that there was an
11 action in Sikiric and Siljkovici. So my question is were you aware that
12 these other places that I've just stated had been involved -- there were
13 Muslim fighters involved in those areas as well, on the 8th of August of
15 A. I didn't know about these attacks and the villages that you
16 mentioned, one of them I didn't really understand which one it was and
17 these other villages mentioned, they are about 40 to 50 kilometres away
18 from us.
19 Q. All right. Well, the one that -- I'll read them out again,
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Zaluzje, Andrici, Kunjerac, Sikiric and Siljkovici,
22 and the question was not whether you knew of any attack on the 8th of
23 August of 1992 then, but whether you came to know about any attack that
24 happened on that day later, whether you later came to know that there was
25 an attack on some or more, or one or more of these villages on the 8th of
1 August 1992.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no. I didn't find out other
3 than Siljkovici. Except for Siljkovici, I didn't -- anything.
4 MS. RICHARDSON:
5 Q. Were you to learn of those other operations, would you
6 consider ...
7 I'll rephrase the questions. Had those operations taken place,
8 would it have been just a coincidence that the attack that you yourself
9 was involved in also occurred on August 8th?
10 A. The question simply is not clear to me. I said that these
11 villages are about 40 to 50 kilometres away from us, and that I have
12 nothing to do with that. I don't know anything about that.
13 Q. Okay. My question is: Regardless of the distance of the
14 villages, had you learned of those attacks, that they did in fact take
15 place. To you, this would be a coincidence?
16 JUDGE AGIUS: But again, I mean, put the question -- you're in
18 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I'll put the question.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Were you aware of any plans to launch an all-scale
20 attack on all these villages on the 8th of August of 1992? Did you ever
21 become aware of that? Either then or later?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, no. Now the question is
24 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.
25 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour.
1 Your Honour, at this time we will be playing another video. It's
2 P517 and there are three clips.
3 Q. Sir, if you would just look at your monitor that's in front of
5 [Videotape played]
6 MS. RICHARDSON:
7 Q. Do you recognise that individual who is in the centre of the
8 photograph? Not the one with the coloured shirt but the one with the
9 sunglasses on in the centre.
10 A. The picture is a little bit unfocussed. Maybe it can be a little
11 sharper, please.
12 Q. Okay. Is that better?
13 A. Are you thinking of the man wearing the sunglasses?
14 Q. Yes, yes. Is that something you recognise as Dr. Mujkanovic?
15 A. Well, those first few days, I didn't see myself personally but I
16 heard that Nedret Mujkanovic had arrived. I didn't actually see him until
17 I got to the hospital on the 7th of January, the hospital in Srebrenica.
18 That was the first time that I saw this man. I didn't see him before. I
19 never saw him in a camouflage uniform.
20 Q. All right.
21 A. I cannot say that it is Nedret or that it isn't Nedret.
22 Q. Thank you. But however, the person on the screen is wearing a
23 camouflage uniform, is he not?
24 A. I see the person in the camouflage uniform.
25 Q. Okay. And just for the record this video is dated 19th of August
1 1992. We can play it a little bit more and the time is 3.17.2?
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, let's proceed.
3 [Videotape played]
4 MS. RICHARDSON:
5 Q. Now, those individuals on the screen, do you recognise anyone
6 there? I know the picture is not the best. Any of them seem familiar to
8 A. Well, just looking at it like that, the way I saw him later, that
9 could be Naser in the camouflage uniform. I did used to see him later in
10 uniform and this is the same build.
11 Q. When you say Naser, you mean Naser Oric?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And in this picture, he's wearing a camouflage uniform, is he not?
14 A. I assume that -- the picture is not sharp enough to me. I
15 cannot -- well, you would say that it was a camouflage uniform, yes. You
16 would say that.
17 Q. And there are other people in that scene with camouflage uniforms,
18 are there not? We can go back a bit.
19 [Videotape played]
20 MS. RICHARDSON:
21 Q. You see the person to the right of the screen, next to the person
22 wearing the reddish colour shirt? Is that person wearing a camouflage
24 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm not sure myself.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot see it. I can't see it
2 [Videotape played]
3 MS. RICHARDSON: All right. That's fine. We'll move to the other
5 [Videotape played]
6 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you.
7 Q. Now, sir, you stated before that you were not in contact with
8 Srebrenica or any of the other territorial units in the surrounding area,
9 and I take it you were not aware if they had uniforms or not.
10 A. No. I didn't know, and I didn't see people like that. That's
11 what I said.
12 Q. All right. And --
13 MS. RICHARDSON: One moment, Your Honour.
14 [Prosecution counsel confer]
15 MS. RICHARDSON: Okay.
16 Q. Now, you recall saying that in August, Rizanovic's men had
17 uniforms and now, although you didn't know it at the time, having seen
18 this video, do you now agree that there were other Muslim fighters in the
19 area in August of 1992 with uniforms?
20 A. So, I said when I saw the first uniforms, in the month of August,
21 on the 8th of August, I saw the first camouflage uniforms that came.
22 Q. That's what you saw. But having now seen this video, that's dated
23 the 19th of August 1992, can you agree that there were other Muslim
24 fighters, including Naser Oric, who you've identified, wearing -- who
25 owned and wore camouflage uniform?
1 A. I'm not sure that this was Naser Oric. I didn't see him before.
2 Well, more or less, judging by this, I mean it could be him.
3 Q. And whether it's Naser Oric or not, do you agree that there are
4 uniforms existing in the area, other than Rizanovic, in August of 1992?
5 Having seen the video.
6 A. No, I don't agree.
7 Q. You don't agree. All right.
8 A. Because I didn't see it, I cannot agree.
9 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you. Your Honour, at this time I will --
10 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Ms. Richardson.
11 Sir, I'm afraid you'll have to return on Monday. We haven't
13 Yes, Ms. Vidovic?
14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, just one addition to
15 the transcript. The witness said "no, no, I don't agree because I did not
16 see it," and here we only have "I did not agree." His answer was that he
17 did not agree because he did not see it himself.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I think I heard that -- I heard that in
19 the interpretation process, yes, definitely I heard it.
20 All right. You will receive all the attention you require and
21 your family will be informed that you need to remain here, unless
22 arrangements are made to take you and bring you back again but I don't
23 think that will be the case and we will continue on Monday in the
25 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, just to remind the witness not to
1 speak with anyone?
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, and please, sir, just -- I wish to remind you
3 what I told you yesterday and before, that you are not to communicate with
4 anyone or let anyone communicate with you on the matters related to your
5 testimony, the subject matter of what you're giving evidence about. Of
6 course, you can speak to your family, you can contact them and they can
7 contact you, but that's about it. Not on the subject matter of your
8 testimony. Did I make myself clear?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have just one question. If
10 somebody comes, if somebody comes from my area, perhaps -- I mean, am I
11 allowed to just speak with them like that or not?
12 JUDGE AGIUS: I am not here to give you advice. I think the
13 Victims and Witnesses Section will give you advice on that but if I were
14 you, I would be very cautious. You would always be running a risk. We
15 will spend maybe an hour or so trying to find out what you talked about,
16 who was he or she, and why did you have to speak to him or her? And it
17 goes on and on. So what I would suggest to you, particularly if you see
18 other persons from your area in the same hotel where you are staying, or
19 in the street where you may be walking, escorted, I would suggest that you
20 might think that these may be witnesses too and that you would -- it would
21 be wiser for you to avoid talking to them.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well. No problem.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: I can assure you that there will be eyes around you.
24 So, yes, Mr. Jones?
25 MR. JONES: May I just make two very quick points.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: In the meantime, can Judge Eser leave?
2 MR. JONES: Yes, certainly.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Because it's past 1.00 already. Okay. Thank you.
4 Thank you.
5 MS. RICHARDSON: Also, if this is a submission that --
6 JUDGE AGIUS: I think the witness can leave as well. Where is the
7 usher? Usher, can you please escort the witness out and make sure that
8 the unit will now make all the necessary arrangements.
9 I wish you a nice weekend, sir.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Jones.
11 MR. JONES: In fact the first point --
12 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
13 [The witness withdrew]
14 JUDGE AGIUS: I want to make sure that [microphone not activated]
15 show up in the camera while you are talking. That's all. All right.
16 Okay. Go ahead.
17 MR. JONES: Yes. The first point is actually an apology from my
18 side. I checked the transcript and, in fact, it had been suggested to the
19 witness already that it was Naser Oric speaking in the interview during
20 examination-in-chief. I apologise for that. I don't want to mislead
22 The second point perhaps should in private session if we can go
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go into private. One moment, I need to
25 check. That's not on -- this is not working.
1 [Private session]
24 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.05 p.m., to
25 be reconvened on Monday, the 10th of October 2005,
1 at 2.15 p.m.