1 Tuesday, 25 October 2005

2 [Open session]

3 --- On commencing at 2.20 p.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: So, good afternoon. Madam Registrar, could you call

6 the case, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes. Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case

8 number IT-03-68-T, the Prosecutor versus Naser Oric.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Oric, can you follow the proceedings in your own

10 language?

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours,

12 gentlemen. Yes, I can follow the proceedings in my mother tongue.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Appearances for the Prosecution.

14 MR. WUBBEN: Good afternoon, Your Honours; and also good afternoon

15 to the Defence. My name is Jan Wubben, lead counsel for the Prosecution.

16 Together with me, Mr. Gramsci Di Fazio, Ms. Joanne Richardson, and our

17 case manager, Ms. Donnica Henry-Frijlink.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Wubben, and good afternoon to you and

19 your team.

20 Appearances for Naser Oric.

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours. I am

22 Vasvija Vidovic, and together with Mr. John Jones we represent Mr. Naser

23 Oric. And we have our legal assistant, Ms. Adisa Mehic, and our CaseMap

24 manager, Mr. Geoff Roberts, with us.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon, Ms. Vidovic, and good afternoon to

1 you and your team.

2 Any preliminaries on your part? Of course, we will be dealing

3 first and foremost with the Rule 68 matter concluded, and then tomorrow

4 morning three Judges will meet and we'll decide what to do with it. So --

5 but if there is anything else you'd like to raise here now before we move

6 to the Rule 68 business. I see none.

7 So in the meantime, after the sitting on Thursday, Mr. Di Fazio

8 provided the -- his submissions in writing, which I suppose you got too.

9 Do you wish to respond or do you wish to leave everything as it is now and

10 then leave the matter in our hands?

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, just a very brief

12 comment, since we do have an objection to the authenticity of the

13 document. I will very briefly address that issue. I will very briefly

14 talk about the motion by the Prosecution, if you allow me.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Go ahead, by all means.

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I will not be dealing

17 any more with the fact whether this article is part of the subject

18 material under Rule 68, but I'm concerned about the manner in which the

19 Prosecution is interpreting Rule 68, and in general the application of

20 Rule 68 and their adherence to Rule 68 in this case. After our discussion

21 on the 17th of October, 2005, the Prosecutor provided us with materials

22 for which he said were referring to the reaction of the Serb public to

23 Nisic's interview in Vranjska Novine. Some of those reactions obviously

24 contain very important material for the Defence which is again subject to

25 Rule 68.

1 Your Honours, I would now like the usher to distribute just one of

2 the items among the material that was given to us, and it refers to the

3 statement of Dejan Jevtic, commander of the special forces, special units

4 of the Red Berets, and it's in regard to Nisic's interview.

5 Unfortunately, the Prosecution gave us only a small part of the article.

6 I would be interested in seeing the entire article, but even this small

7 part of the article is very clear, and I'm going to quote from it. It's

8 Dejan Jevtic is speaking, the commander of the special forces of the Red

9 Berets.

10 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters don't have the article in front

11 of them.

12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] He says: "Belgrade, Slobodan

13 Nisic --"

14 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, because I would like to make -- I am --

15 Usher -- okay. We are going to have copies distributed, or it's put on

16 the ELMO. Right.

17 Do you think you can work in all languages by that? Okay. All

18 right. So let's -- I'm sorry for having interrupted you, Ms. Vidovic,

19 but --

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] No problem, Your Honours. I'm only

21 going to read a very small part, the first part of this article. It

22 states: "Top was not in, probably the Red Berets, Belgrade. Slobodan

23 Misic Top was not or nor could he have been a member of the Red Berets, a

24 special unit that I formed with some other people and which I commanded,

25 Dejan Jevtic, commander of most of the actions of that unit conducted

1 during the war on the Drina front told DT."

2 So from this part you can see that the units of the Red Berets

3 under the command of Dejan Jevtic were present on the Drina front

4 throughout the war, which we have been proving and which all of the

5 Prosecutor's witnesses that we questioned about the Red Berets denied.

6 It's up you, Your Honours, to decide to which extent the Prosecution is

7 violating Rule 68 and what their position is in regard to that obligation.

8 And we have already been harmed a lot by being deprived of this material.

9 What I would like to add is that I would like to have the

10 Prosecution provide us with the complete article from this newspaper.

11 It's an article from the 16th of November, 1997, and it was published in

12 the Dnevni Telegraf newspaper.

13 I would now like to talk very briefly about something else. I

14 would like to respond to items 4, 5, and 6 of the Prosecutor's response

15 regarding document P586, the alleged minutes of the -- or record of the

16 District Court of Vranje. I would like to place this document P586 on the

17 ELMO so that we could all see it again.

18 I note, Your Honours, that we did not receive the translation of

19 this document into English, but we were given the same version of the

20 previous document, P585, to go with this document. We did not get an

21 English translation for this document. I don't know whether the others

22 have received the document.

23 Could you please place the Bosnian version on the ELMO.

24 Your Honours, this document we do not think is authentic. Namely,

25 this document should be the record of the investigative activities of the

1 District Court in Vranje. The area of the former Yugoslavia and the

2 present-day Yugoslavia does not have the practice of tape recording court

3 proceedings, and that is why the procedure of compiling or drafting all

4 court documents, in particular records, is very formal and these records

5 are drafted in a specific form.

6 Your Honours, I would like to draw your attention -- could you

7 please move the document up. Could you please return -- put it a little

8 bit more down. Thank you.

9 Each record should have the marking of the relevant court. So

10 this should be the District Court Vranje. It should have the date and the

11 number of the investigative action. We have it on the second page.

12 However, from this record you can see that the accused were present as

13 well as his Defence counsel, Dragan Nikolic.

14 Could you please move the document up now.

15 Your Honours, this record, as part of the investigative

16 activities, should have been signed by all those present.

17 Could you please move the page further up.

18 Next to the stamp, on the right you can see that it states here

19 "The accused," and you can see that there is no signature there. What is

20 written here in this record would -- is allegedly a statement by the

21 accused, and it should have been signed. This statement should also have

22 been signed by his Defence counsel. What you actually have here is a

23 signature by the name of the record-taker, and then beneath the words

24 which state, "Investigative Judge," you have the words in

25 Serbian "odiradni" [phoen] "certified" and you have something that should

1 state "Misic," and then you have the stamp over that. You would not have

2 in any similar procedure in the former Yugoslavia a stamp placed over the

3 signature of the accused, as you have here. The accused should very

4 clearly sign something as his own statement. Therefore, this is not

5 something that would be a record of an investigation, and that is why we

6 do not accept this document as authentic.

7 Besides what we said on the previous occasion, it's evident from

8 the statement which you received as document P585, that the accused in

9 this case at this stage maintained his right to remain silent. Therefore,

10 we do not accept this document as authentic.

11 I would just very briefly also like to say something about item 12

12 of the Prosecutor's response. The Prosecutor states in that item that it

13 is their right to decide who they will sue, and the Defence of course

14 understands that the Prosecutor cannot indict all those who committed war

15 crimes in the area of the former Yugoslavia and that the Prosecutor should

16 focus on highly ranking figures.

17 We searched all the available archives and all the cases conducted

18 by the Prosecutor relating to the events in Podrinje in 1992, and

19 determined that what is specific -- that Miroslav Deronjic specifically

20 was indicted for the events in Glogova and sentenced to ten years, and we

21 saw these documents ourselves. We also obtained documents relating to the

22 camp in the area of Vlasenica.

23 I simply do not believe that the Prosecutor simply failed to take

24 into account facts which must have been known to him, these 70 to 80

25 killings in Podrinje in 1992, which they obviously knew and heard about.

1 And I cannot believe that the Prosecutor failed to take into account other

2 killings in Podrinje in 1992 which they knew about from different sources,

3 that they simply tabled that, placed it in a drawer. And that is why I

4 believe that the Prosecutor must have some other similar material in their

5 possession, and with due respect, I would like to have the results of all

6 the investigations relating to the killings of Muslims in Podrinje in

7 1992, or I would like then to be told that they do not have anything

8 relating to the killings of Muslims in Podrinje in 1992.

9 However, I cannot expect that. In this case, I see that the

10 Prosecutor diligently processed the burning of houses in Fakovici, and I

11 also accept that the Prosecutor processed the killings of such a number of

12 people in this area, and this is the reason why we're requesting such

13 material.

14 Regarding the other matters from the response by the Prosecution,

15 we leave that up to you to decide about, because we believe that we talked

16 about that sufficiently on the 17th of October, 2005.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Mr. Di Fazio, do you want to respond to that?

18 MR. DI FAZIO: If I could just be given a minute and a half to two

19 minutes. Thanks.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, go ahead.

21 MR. DI FAZIO: Thanks. Firstly with the newspaper article, with

22 respect, the Defence has misunderstood. This is a Rule 68 issue that

23 we're dealing with here. We do not conduct investigations on behalf of

24 the Defence. We trawl our material to see what is Rule 68 and 66(B). If

25 it fits that description, we hand it over. And that is the point.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: One -- let me stop you on this for a minute, because

2 basically I think it all boils down to the following: Ms. Vidovic, if I

3 read her well, wants the entire article. Is the entire article in your

4 possession? This is the whole --

5 MR. DI FAZIO: That's exactly my point. That's exactly my point,

6 if Your Honours please.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: If you don't have it, then obviously I cannot ask

8 you to go get it.

9 MR. DI FAZIO: As presently advised, I understand that we do not

10 have it. And that's the point. If we've got it, we'll look at it and

11 make the decision in accordance with the Rules, and then hand it over.

12 That's the point.

13 Now, it may be that there's more to it outside in the wider world

14 and in -- out there in the ether, so to speak. That's their job, the

15 Defence's job. They must go and look for that material if they want to.

16 If it's in our possession, we will divulge it in accordance with the

17 Rules. That's the point I wanted to make.

18 That point is also related to the latter point that was being made

19 by Madam Vidovic and the impact of Exhibits 586 -- impact of Exhibit P586

20 on this issue. And she said the words, I think, that really go a long way

21 to explaining some of the problems that we might have had, and she said

22 this: "I simply do not believe --" Now -- "... that the Prosecution

23 doesn't have more documents on this Misic business." In my submissions I

24 took pains to point out to you that we conducted that very search. That

25 issue was raised fairly and squarely by the Defence, and we addressed it

1 fairly and squarely.

2 Last week the Defence articulated the fear that they have. They

3 said, and I don't say not sensibly, but they said there must have been

4 more. There must be more material. We don't believe there isn't more

5 material. This would have caused an investigation, would have generated

6 more Rule 68 material. It was precisely that matter that the Defence went

7 to -- sorry, that the Prosecution went to examine its records and see if

8 they -- if indeed there were -- there was any other material that had been

9 generated by the -- the issue of this man Misic suddenly arising in the

10 newspapers in the way that it did, in order to see if there is any further

11 disclosable material.

12 Now, that has -- that exercise has been conducted. As I said, we

13 generated an ISU search and we searched the material, as you may suspect,

14 you know, with a fine-toothed comb. And the point that I seek to make is

15 that it's -- one gets the impression that it's never going to be enough.

16 We understand the concern that the Defence had about Slobodan Misic and we

17 conducted an extremely thorough search into that man and into any possible

18 documents that might have come into our possession as a result of OTP

19 investigations. That's been done. The search has been collated, it's

20 been searched through, and any disclosable material has now been handed

21 over, and that's how the article in Cyrillic came to be -- came to be

22 generated.

23 So I -- I understand to a certain extent the Defence concerns, but

24 I also want to allay them, if I may, by saying that the Prosecution takes

25 very, very seriously its -- its Rule 68 obligations, and just because the

1 Defence thinks there should be more documentation doesn't mean that there

2 is. We've conducted our searches, gone through it, and handed over

3 anything that could have been generated as a result of Misic.

4 As far as the other issue of Rule -- P585 not being an authentic

5 document, that is, in the Prosecution's submission, not something that's

6 going to be able to assist you to decide this Rule 68 issue. Even if the

7 document was not entirely correct according to knowledge that Madam

8 Vidovic has, it could still use it to negate what is said in that

9 newspaper article, and the whole point of it was the potency of the

10 newspaper article. How much use could the Defence make of it? Everything

11 that's been raised by Madam Vidovic today doesn't detract substantially

12 from that particular submission. It's the use. What could they have done

13 with it? What have they missed out on by this breach of Rule 68? And the

14 Prosecution's submission is clear: Not much, by virtue of the operation

15 of P585 and P586.

16 And furthermore, if you look at P584, I don't think there's any

17 suggestion that that's not authentic. That refers to decision number 59

18 of 97 in the first two lines, which is P586. It's decision number 59 of

19 97.

20 Those are the matters that I wanted to put to you.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you. So basically what's going to

22 happen now is tomorrow morning we will start discussing this.

23 [Trial Chamber confers]

24 JUDGE AGIUS: The concern -- please let me make one thing clear on

25 behalf of everyone here, that the concerns of the Trial Chamber in matters

1 related to the full application of Rule 68 should be the concerns of you

2 all, Prosecution and Defence. For various reasons, obviously, but as far

3 as we are concerned, it's because this is a matter of rights pertaining to

4 the accused and obligations on the Prosecution arising out of -- out of

5 the Rules, and there has to be strict observance of this Rule to its -- to

6 the maximum, to the maximum number. So we will be dealing with that.

7 On the other hand, before I close this chapter for the time being,

8 and then we'll come down with our decision, I just wanted to know one

9 thing from the Defence. In your motion you ask for sanctions. In your

10 motions you ask for sanctions. What did you have in mind, Mr. Jones? I'm

11 asking Mr. Jones or Madam Vidovic or whoever wishes to take the floor.

12 MR. JONES: Well, Your Honour, I didn't -- Rule 68 bis obviously

13 deals with failure to comply with disclosure obligations and refers to

14 sanctions. I didn't specify because obviously it's a matter for the

15 discretion of the Trial Chamber. Nonetheless, I -- one thing certainly

16 which I think is important and which emerged during the course of the

17 hearings last week is my submission certainly that the Prosecution didn't

18 understand what was exculpatory because they didn't seem to understand

19 that material which indicated that Red Berets or paramilitary units or

20 volunteers from Serbia were present in Fakovici, or let's extend it to

21 Kravica, Jezestica, Bjelovac, that they wouldn't consider that's

22 exculpatory. And as much as Mr. Di Fazio has since made an admission that

23 this was a Rule 68 breach, I was just trying to find the part in the

24 transcript where his initial submission was there had been no breach in

25 respect of one of the matters. So my concern is that if this matter then

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13 English transcripts.

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1 is dealt with in one way or the other and I wouldn't say swept under the

2 carpet, but if we move on beyond this, that more material would emerge

3 subsequently which shows that there were volunteers in Kravica or

4 volunteers in Bjelovac, and the Prosecution will say it's not exculpatory.

5 So one idea I had in mind was that the Chamber might direct - maybe it's

6 not a question of sanctions, but make clear to the Prosecution categories

7 of material which obviously are exculpatory, and in that sense that would

8 be something which would at least clarify what is and what is not

9 exculpatory. We say there are a vast number of matters which impeach the

10 credibility of Prosecution witnesses, whole hosts of issues which are

11 exculpatory; anything showing that these villages posed a mortal threat to

12 surrounding Muslim villages, for one, and that we don't want that to

13 remain unclear because that will lead to further misunderstandings.

14 So if that's not a sanction, it's at least a constructive way

15 forward, in my submission.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Jones.

17 Do you wish to comment on this, Mr. Di Fazio, or not?

18 MR. DI FAZIO: No.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. So we adjourn on this matter. Of course

20 we'll follow up with a written decision, which should be decided upon

21 tomorrow, and then of course I have to sit down and draft the substantive

22 part of it. So we expect it any time in the course of this week. All

23 right?

24 So no further preliminary matters? I see none.

25 Usher, perhaps you could bring in this witness.

1 Who is going to lead? Is it you, Madam Vidovic?

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: And how much time do you think you require?

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, five or six hours at

5 least. We have a lot of exhibits.

6 Your Honours, just one brief -- just one brief remark. When the

7 Prosecutor shows the witness exhibits, like they did the last time about

8 the census, would they kindly show the witness the original in Bosnian and

9 not like the last time when we had these documents in English, because

10 this can cause quite significant misunderstandings, both for the Trial

11 Chamber and for the witness.

12 For example, I'm talking about Exhibit P587. And last time the

13 witness was shown an excerpt in English. Not only a name can change,

14 because it is important whether we're talking about Josevo or Joseva, or

15 if there is no punctuation for first and last name. For example, the

16 Prosecutor claimed a certain person was called Hasan but actually in the

17 original it turned out that it was a woman named Hasan. So in order to

18 prevent such misunderstandings which can confuse the witness, would the

19 Prosecutor please always show the witness a document in the original

20 Bosnian if the document is originally in Bosnian.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, and I suppose you take note of that.

22 MR. WUBBEN: Yes, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. The other thing before we start with the

24 witness, today we have got the consensus of everyone to have one break and

25 finish at 6.15 instead of 7.00. All right? If that is all right with

1 you, Madam Vidovic. Okay.

2 Yes, let's bring the witness in. So it's six hours maximum on --

3 six hours for the Prosecution. How many hours with the Defence here and

4 now? I mean subject, of course, as we go along you will be able to make a

5 reassessment. Mr. Di Fazio.

6 MR. DI FAZIO: I don't think it will be a quick one, if Your

7 Honours please. As Madam Vidovic has rightly pointed out, there's numbers

8 of documents to be shown, and I've got a few, and I suspect that I'll be

9 using all of my time for cross-examination.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So this gentleman will be here with us I

11 suppose practically to the end of the week.

12 [The witness entered court]

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon, to you, Mr. Ademovic.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: And I am the Presiding Judge, and I would like to

16 welcome you on behalf of my two colleagues, Judge Brydensholt from the

17 Kingdom of Denmark, Judge Eser from Germany, and myself. My name is Judge

18 Agius, and I come from Malta. I welcome you to this Tribunal. You are a

19 witness for the Defence and very soon you will start giving evidence. I

20 will give you some further explanation when we are finished with this

21 preliminary part.

22 What I want to make sure first and foremost is what I'm saying in

23 English is being interpreted to you in your own language and that you are

24 receiving the interpretation in an adequate manner.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. It's all clear, Your Honour.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: If at any time there are problems with

2 interpretation, either the level or you are not receiving it at all or the

3 sound level is not to your satisfaction, please do let us know straight

4 away and we will see into it.

5 Before you start giving evidence, our Rules require that you make

6 a solemn declaration equivalent to an oath. It's being handed to you now.

7 Please read it out loud and that will be your solemn undertaking with us

8 that you will be testifying the truth. Go ahead.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

10 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

11 WITNESS: SIDIK ADEMOVIC

12 [Witness answered through interpreter]

13 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Ademovic. Please make yourself

14 comfortable and I'll explain a few remaining things.

15 Since you are a witness for the Defence, in other words, you've

16 been summonsed to come over and give evidence by the Defence of Mr. Oric,

17 it will be Madam Vidovic who is lead counsel for the accused in this trial

18 who will examine you first. By examining you, I mean she will be asking

19 you a number of questions which you are required to answer unless we tell

20 you not to.

21 Please try to cooperate as much as you can with Madam Vidovic and

22 with the Trial Chamber by restricting your answers to the questions that

23 are put to you. Don't try to give more information than you are being

24 asked to give. And if a question can be answered by a mere yes or no,

25 then answer it by a yes or a no. Otherwise, you are going to be here for

1 a long time. Already assuming that you cooperate to the -- to the

2 maximum, to the full, it will take Madam Vidovic at least today and

3 tomorrow to finish with her examination-in-chief, and probably we would be

4 even talking of Thursday.

5 If we are talking of Thursday, there is a slight chance that you

6 will need to remain here over the weekend if we don't finish with you. So

7 the more you keep your answers short and to the point, the better chance

8 you have of returning back home after Friday, or as soon as we finish with

9 your testimony on Friday.

10 Do you understand me?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, I understand you.

12 I understand completely.

13 I would like to use this opportunity to greet all present, and I

14 hope that my testimony will be of use for all of us. Thank you very much.

15 We may begin.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you so much, Mr. Ademovic. And I think

17 Madam Vidovic can start.

18 Yes, Madam Vidovic. The break will be at 3.45 -- at 4.00. Sorry,

19 at 4.00? At 4.00.

20 Examined by Ms. Vidovic:

21 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Ademovic.

22 A. Good afternoon to you. Good afternoon to all present.

23 Q. Could you please tell the Trial Chamber your full first and last

24 name.

25 A. Sidik Ademovic.

1 Q. You were born on the 10th of February, 1969 [as interpreted], in

2 Susnjari, municipality of Srebrenica?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Your father is Alija, mother Hajra, nee Oric?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Just to correct the transcript, it states that you were born in

7 1969 in the transcript, but actually you were born in 1962 in Susnjari.

8 Is this correct?

9 A. Yes, in 1962.

10 Q. You're four times removed in kinship to Mr. Oric; is that correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. You've completed elementary school in Potocari in 1977?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. After that, you completed the school of the Ministry for Internal

15 Affairs of Bosnia and Herzegovina for professional police officers in

16 Sarajevo in 1981.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. In July 1981, you were deployed at the Srebrenica police station

19 as a police officer.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. In 1989, you enrolled at the Faculty of Political Sciences in

22 Sarajevo, department for security?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. You graduated in nineteen eighty --

25 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not get the year.

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. And you are a professor in security?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. In the area of Susnjari in Srebrenica -- we're having problems

5 with the transcript again. You graduated in 1999; is that correct?

6 A. Yes, in 1989.

7 THE INTERPRETER: 1999, interpreter's correction.

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. During the fall of Srebrenica in 1995, you and your wife lost 144

10 members of -- close family members.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. You personally, on the 12th of July, 1995, survived the execution

13 in Ravni Boljum when in a few moments, in some minutes, about 500 people,

14 your neighbours, were killed. Is this correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. You are married?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And you are the father of two daughters?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. In 1996, you got a job at the Federal Ministry for Internal

21 Affairs in Sarajevo, and you are still working there today, and your title

22 is senior inspector in the operations centre of the ministry.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Mr. Ademovic, you said that you were born in Susnjari, that you

25 spent the war there. I would now like to ask you to look at the map which

1 will be shown to you by the usher, and I would like you to point out some

2 places on the map.

3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it is a map that we

4 have been using to date. It's an excerpt of the Zvornik-Kladanj map,

5 pages 477 and 476 of the Military Institute, and it was published in 1967.

6 Q. Mr. Ademovic, have you received the map?

7 A. No, not yet.

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like the usher to give the

9 witness two different coloured pens.

10 Q. Yes, yes, you can use your glasses. Go ahead.

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the usher please give the

12 witness two different coloured pens.

13 Q. Could you please show the Trial Chamber your village, Susnjari.

14 Would you mark the village using one of those two pens. Could you

15 underline the place?

16 A. I apologise, Your Honours, but I would like to use the colour

17 green to indicate my own positions, and I would like to use the red pen in

18 order to mark Serbian villages.

19 Q. Very well. Thank you for that remark. So will you please tell

20 us, before the war, what was the ethnic composition of Susnjari?

21 A. The ethnic composition of Susnjari before the war was Muslim

22 majority. About one-third of the houses were Serb houses.

23 Q. Thank you very much. Could you please show Potocari for the Trial

24 Chamber now.

25 A. [Marks].

1 Q. Pale.

2 A. [Marks].

3 Q. Milacevici. Lehovice. Brosevici. Jaglici, and Bijecva.

4 A. [Marks].

5 Q. While we're still with the map, I would like to ask you whether

6 there was a Muslim hamlet between Susnjari and Milacevici. You cannot see

7 it on the map, though.

8 A. Yes. There was a small village called Brezova Njiva. It is not

9 indicated here, but there are some topographic symbols indicating that

10 place.

11 Q. Could you please indicate that as BN, Brezova Njiva, at the place

12 where you believe it is marked on the map.

13 A. [Marks].

14 Q. Thank you. Just to clarify, these villages that you have just

15 marked, were these Serb or Muslim villages?

16 A. These were purely Muslim villages.

17 Q. Would you please tell the Trial Chamber, how far were Susnjari and

18 Potocari? How far apart?

19 A. From Susnjari to Potocari, as the crow flies, it's about ten

20 kilometres, while if you take the road or go by land it's a little bit

21 farther.

22 Q. How far was Pale from Susnjari?

23 A. As the crow flies, about seven kilometres.

24 Q. Could you please tell the -- or mark on this map where Srebrenica

25 is.

1 A. [Marks].

2 Q. Would you tell us how far Susnjari is from Srebrenica.

3 A. My village of Susnjari, as the crow flies, is about 20 kilometres

4 away from Srebrenica. Over land, it's further.

5 Q. I will now ask you to indicate the Serb villages around the

6 Susnjari and Jaglici and Brezova Njiva areas. Could you please start to

7 the north. Jezestica and its hamlets. Can you show us Jezestica.

8 A. Yes. I will begin --

9 Q. Excuse me. Are you using a different colour?

10 A. Yes, I am. I'm using the colour red, and I will start to the

11 north. To the north of Susnjari is Djermani and Jezestica. I will mark

12 them now.

13 Q. Thank you. Can you indicate Blazijevici, Jasbine, Radukici, Bukva

14 Glava.

15 A. [Marks].

16 Q. And tell us is Veresinje here on the map? If not, could you show

17 us where it is and mark it with a V.

18 A. Veresinje has not been entered into this map but I will mark it.

19 Q. Mark it with a V.

20 A. [Marks].

21 Q. Thank you. Can you show us Kajici?

22 A. [Marks].

23 Q. Siljkovici.

24 A. [Marks].

25 Q. Kravica.

1 A. [Marks].

2 Q. And its hamlets.

3 A. Please excuse me, but I can do it by myself.

4 Q. Yes, but tell us the names of the villages, then.

5 A. Yes. Mandici, Podaljevici, Opravdici, Brezik, Bukovik, Donji and

6 Gornji Bacici, or upper and lower Bacici, Colakovici, Popovici, Ocenovici.

7 If necessary --

8 Q. That's enough, thank you. Could you tell us what the villages are

9 to the west?

10 A. West of my village of Susnjari is the general area where there are

11 Mocila --

12 Q. Please answer --

13 A. Excuse me. To west is Bratinci, Lipenovici, Zabrdje, Brezanci,

14 Bare, Jasikovace, Manovici, Kostrice, Jeremici, Poljanci, and the general

15 area of Ragajci, Rogac. I will mark Rogac here.

16 Q. Very well. Let me ask you now, when you mentioned Rogac, would

17 you tell Their Honours whether the Rogac area is linked to another large

18 territory inhabited by a Serb population or not.

19 A. It is physically contiguous with Milici, which is a large village,

20 and then by way of Vlasenica, Han Pijesak, Sokolac and the Romanija part,

21 which has a Serb majority.

22 Q. Is it correct that throughout the war in Han Pijesak there was a

23 command, the main command of the army of Republika Srpska?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Would you please now indicate the Serb villages located to the

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1 east of Susnjari, if there were any?

2 A. Ladies and gentlemen, Your Honours, on the map to the east of my

3 village of Susnjari, there is a Serb village Dubova, which is not shown on

4 the map.

5 Q. Would you mark it then, please.

6 A. Yes, I will. I'll mark it as Dubova, because I think it's very

7 important.

8 Q. Very well. Put it in, then.

9 A. In the area where it says Kojsina, if you can see there are some

10 dots, and I will mark this as Dubova.

11 Q. Can you indicate Bukva Glava to Their Honours and tell them

12 whether this is a Serb village?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Mark it, please.

15 A. [Marks].

16 Q. And --

17 JUDGE AGIUS: The focusing is -- yes. We need to move and also we

18 need to see what is shown on the map because the focusing is not good at

19 all. It got worse rather than better but they have a problem and they're

20 giving it their full attention.

21 So it's -- I managed to mark Dubova where the witness pointed, but

22 shall we --

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Maybe we can continue, and the

24 witness can indicate some more villages.

25 Q. Can you indicate the Serb villages which were to the south of the

1 Susnjari area? For example, Sijemovo?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Can you indicate that? Trklat [phoen]?

4 A. I've already said that I'm circling the Serb villages in red and

5 the Muslim villages in green.

6 Q. Have you circled Sijemovo, please?

7 A. Yes.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Where is Sijemovo? Let's see.

9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Now we can see the map well.

10 Q. Can you indicate Sijemovo for Their Honours.

11 A. [Indicates].

12 Q. Yes. Very well.

13 A. Is it visible?

14 Q. Yes it is. Can you show Osredak?

15 A. [Indicates].

16 Q. And can you indicate the general area of Orahovica?

17 A. Yes. I'll indicate Osredak and all the way south.

18 Q. Just Orahovica. Could you indicate that, please. Very well.

19 A. Just a moment. Just a moment.

20 Q. We'll show you another map where it might be easier to find.

21 A. Orahovica is here but this map is not sufficient.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like ask the witness to keep

23 this map, but we will show an even broader area that the witness will

24 speak about. So would the usher show the witness this other map as well,

25 please.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: In the meantime, let's give this map a number,

2 please. This will become Defence Exhibit D --

3 THE REGISTRAR: D841, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: 841. Thank you.

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Witness, please, have you found Orahovica on this map?

7 A. Yes, yes, I have.

8 Q. Can you tell us whether Orahovica is connected to another area and

9 what the ethnic make-up of the population there is.

10 A. Orahovica as a local commune is linked to Pribicevac.

11 Q. Can you mark it?

12 A. I need the other map.

13 Q. Have you found Pribicevac?

14 A. Just a moment.

15 Q. If I may assist. Below Srebrenica. To the right.

16 A. Pribicevci, Pribicevac.

17 Q. To the right?

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Can you see Skenderovici? Okay. We found it.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I found it, I found it.

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Can you indicate Brezani?

22 A. [Indicates].

23 Q. Brezani. Are there any other areas inhabited by Serbs physically

24 linked to this area?

25 A. As you can see from Orahovica via Pribicevac and Brezani, they are

1 linked to Rajkovici and the place on the River Drina, Fakovici, which is

2 physically separated from there by the River Drina.

3 Q. Can you indicate that, please.

4 A. [Indicates].

5 Q. And in the Orahovica area can you mark a mountain area between

6 Suceska and Srebrenica.

7 A. I'll take this opportunity to inform you and Their Honours that in

8 the Orahovica area there is a place called Jogar [phoen] --

9 Q. Can you mark it, please.

10 A. -- which physically separates the Suceska local commune from

11 Srebrenica.

12 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, I have no problem with

13 Madam Vidovic leading the witness on all this but I think he just marked

14 that D481 unless I'm wrong. Did I get that wrong?

15 JUDGE AGIUS: No, I don't think you got that wrong. If he marked

16 -- if you put the marking on what we are seeing on the monitor now, yes,

17 he put it on D841.

18 MR. DI FAZIO: I think just to be safer for the purposes of the

19 transcript, if we are going to switch from one to the other, to enunciate

20 it.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I think if he needs to mark this, we were using

22 D842, Madam Vidovic, isn't it? We were using the new map.

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: So we give him back the new map, D842, the smaller

25 of the two, and he marks this place -- what was the name?

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Vijoger.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Where does he mark it? It has to be moved to the

3 right. Yes, much further, please. And he's going to mark it now.

4 THE WITNESS: [Marks].

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Vijoger, right.

6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Please, before we move on, I would like to clarify something that

8 I believe is incorrect in the transcript. I asked you first of all, when

9 you were talking about places that were connected, we were discussing

10 Pribicevac and Brezani, and you said they were linked to Ratkovici. Am I

11 right?

12 A. Yes, you are right. Pribicevac and Podranje are physically linked

13 to Ratkovic.

14 Q. Yes, just please answer my question. It says here Rajkovici. You

15 then mentioned the River Drina and Fakovici, and what did you say about

16 Fakovici and Ratkovici?

17 A. Fakovici and Ratkovici are physically linked geographically and

18 territorially, and they are next to the River Drina on the Bosnian side,

19 and only the River Drina separates them off from the Republic of Serbia.

20 Q. Thank you. It's clear in the record now. Would you please

21 initial both maps at the top and keep these maps with you, because we will

22 use them during your testimony. Keep the maps, please.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't know if we have marked this second map. Not

24 yet. This second map that was handed to the witness on which he has

25 marked several places has been tendered and received being marked as

1 Defence Exhibit D842, 842.

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Mr. Ademovic, keep the maps. I would like to ask you some

4 questions now. You told us that during 1990 you worked as a policeman in

5 Srebrenica. Can you tell us exactly what you did?

6 A. Yes. I worked as an officer of the operations centre of the

7 Srebrenica police station.

8 Q. Can you explain to the Trial Chamber what an operations centre is

9 in a police station?

10 A. The operations centre as a post in every police station, including

11 the one in Srebrenica, is a post that is 20 -- has 24-hour

12 coverage. Somebody is there 24 hours a day. That operations centre at

13 any point continuously, 24 hours a day, receives information of any type.

14 Q. Just one moment. Is information received about what is going on

15 out in the field?

16 A. Anything that happens in the field, anything.

17 Q. Exactly what was your job in that post?

18 A. My task in that post was to process and gather all the information

19 as soon as possible that I received and forward it to the authorised

20 superior officer, if you wish.

21 Q. Did he issue instructions for you for the work?

22 A. The superior officer would look at all the information, give his

23 opinion on the information, he would then inform me and then I would pass

24 the information or the instructions out to the field.

25 Q. Thank you. While you were doing this job in the course of 1989

1 and 1990, did you know or find out anything about the activities of the

2 Serbian state security in your area?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. What was that information?

5 A. We received information that officers of the DB, state security

6 service, were working on the question of alleged Islamic fundamentalism on

7 the territories of municipalities of Srebrenica and Bratunac.

8 Q. According to the information that you had as a police officer at

9 that time, was there any Islamic fundamentalism in that area at that time?

10 A. Our operative information about that was negative. We did not

11 have any information about it.

12 Q. Did you understand what was actually going on in relation to the

13 work of the Serbian state security?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And what was it actually about?

16 A. It was about spreading propaganda and creating a confusing

17 situation, a situation of intolerance in which DB officers interviewed or

18 interrogated certain citizens, Serb citizens, in the area of Bratunac and

19 Srebrenica and asked them or talked about this alleged Islamic

20 fundamentalism.

21 Q. Could you please tell me whether this was happening after

22 Milosevic came to power?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Regarding the activities of the Serbian SDB, did you have any

25 personal contacts with people from the SDB?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. What was that about?

3 A. Those people talked to me on several occasions and also asked me

4 to speak with them and asked me, amongst other things, about Islamic

5 fundamentalism, about some Green Berets, and thirdly, and this was a key

6 question, they asked me about the Croat defence forces, the HOS.

7 Q. Could you please explain to the Trial Chamber what HOS is?

8 A. When they first asked me, I didn't know right away, but later I

9 learned that these were allegedly Croatian armed or intelligence services.

10 Q. Could you please tell me whether something like this did actually

11 exist in the Srebrenica and Bratunac area?

12 A. Our operative information was negative, meaning no.

13 Q. In the course of 1990, did you have information or not that some

14 roads were being built which didn't exist in your area prior to that?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Could you please tell us something about that.

17 A. In early 1990 and then more intensely in 1991, there was speedy

18 work to lay down new roads, particularly in Serb areas, especially in the

19 area of Kravica where the Kravica-Siljkovici-Lipanovica-Rogac road was

20 built. Then in the area of Podavlje [phoen], then Jadar, Pribicevac, Rad,

21 linking it to Brezani and Ratkovici, which was then laid down directly to

22 Fakovici, linking it to the Drina River, then roads in the area of Osata,

23 Podravanje, Ljeskovik, Klotjevac, directly linking up with the crossing

24 through the Bajina Basta thermoelectric power station.

25 Q. Did these roads pass through Muslim settlements such as Konjevic

1 Polje, for example?

2 A. No. Here Muslim villages were deliberately bypassed, and Konjevic

3 Polje in particular.

4 Q. Did you know who was building these roads?

5 A. Yes, our operations -- our operative information, which was quite

6 accessible in public, was that the contractors for these roads were

7 Partizan Putevi from Uzice.

8 Q. Could you please tell us something about this company Partizan

9 Putevi? Did you know anything more about this particular firm?

10 A. Yes. The construction firm which was specialised for building

11 roads was part of the Yugoslav People's Army but it was of a civilian

12 nature.

13 Q. Did you have the opportunity to speak with any of the employees of

14 that firm?

15 A. Yes, because works were being carried out in the area of my

16 municipality and in the area that I was responsible for as a police

17 officer. I talked to those people because that company or that firm, the

18 contracting firm, employed a certain number of people who actually were

19 from my area.

20 Q. And what did they say? Did the firm belong to the Yugoslav

21 People's Army?

22 A. From their conversation, and this is something that we also knew,

23 it was no secret, we knew that it did belong to the Yugoslav People's Army

24 and a part of it to the factory in Uzice which was of a specific nature.

25 Q. Is Uzice a town in Serbia?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. According to what you know, were these roads of any importance

3 during the several months before the war broke out?

4 A. Yes, they were of major importance. That would be seen later.

5 But specifically, the main road Polom, Zelinje, Glogova, Planina, Kravica,

6 Siljkovici, Siljkovici - I repeat Siljkovici - Kravica, Lipenovici, Rogac.

7 Q. What was the importance of that road?

8 A. It was of military and strategic importance in order to supply the

9 Serbian forces with weapons, personnel, and all the other logistics.

10 Q. Did the war in Croatia have any significant effect on the events

11 in your area in early 1991?

12 A. Yes, it did.

13 Q. Could you please tell us what happened? What did you see? What

14 did you find out as a police officer?

15 A. When the war broke out in Croatia, it was obvious in the area of

16 the Srebrenica municipality that many citizens of Serb ethnicity of

17 military age went to the fronts in Croatia. And they would come back from

18 there in uniforms and armed.

19 Q. And what kind of an atmosphere did this create in the area of

20 Srebrenica and Bratunac according to what you know?

21 A. According to what I came up against in the field, and according to

22 our operational information, it had a negative effect. There was also a

23 propaganda aspect which had a negative effect on the Muslim population,

24 because the returnees from the front, from Croatia, told negative stories

25 about Catholics in Croatia, mostly from the area of Vukovar, which caused

1 a more intense degree of concern amongst the Muslim population.

2 Q. Could we please now play D696, which is a video. It's a Defence

3 exhibit.

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we provided a

5 transcript of this video recording to the interpreters.

6 Q. Could you play it from 12.47 to 15.22.

7 [Videotape played]

8 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] The most responsible people from the

9 ministry of internal affairs from Bosnia-Herzegovina were there, and they

10 held a press conference in Sarajevo this evening. In Kajici, the

11 municipality of Bratunac on the regional road, unknown persons from ambush

12 from automatic weapons fired on four persons which were in a Lada vehicle,

13 licence plate number 280062.

14 "On this occasion Nedzad Hodzic and Dzemo Jusic lost their, lives

15 and Mevludin Sinanovic and Zaim Salkanovic from the village of Repovci,

16 Bratunac municipality, were wounded. Bullet shells were found,

17 fingerprints, and the criminal department is already working to establish

18 the factual situation and the perpetrators.

19 "We went to the location where a large number of Muslims gathered

20 and they were asking for weapons, and they wanted the perpetrators to be

21 prosecuted in a way which was not accordance with the legal system of

22 Bosnia-Herzegovina. At the same time, the Serb population was disturbed

23 and who to a large part had already moved to Ljubovija at this meeting

24 Mr. Pebib and myself with the other representatives."

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

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1 Q. Mr. Ademovic, have you seen this footage?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Did you recognise anyone on this footage?

4 A. Yes. I recognised Mr. Vitomir Zepinic.

5 Q. Did you recognise anyone else?

6 A. I recognised myself.

7 Q. What was your role in the investigation of these events?

8 A. It was my role to attend this meeting and to record the

9 conversations and everything that was being discussed at the meeting so

10 that later during the investigation and other activities we could use them

11 as authentic proof of what was said at that particular meeting.

12 Q. Was this actually a press conference?

13 A. Yes, it was.

14 Q. Is it correct that you knew all the particulars of these events in

15 Kajici and Kravica?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Nedzad Hodzic and Dzemo Jusic who were killed, and Mevludin

18 Sinanovic and Zaim Salkanovic who were injured, are these Muslims?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Did the investigation show whether these people were armed or not?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Did you, for example, see the record of the on-site investigation

23 and were you present at the on-site investigation?

24 A. Yes, I was investigating this case also. I saw several records

25 and attended the signing of the minutes and records concerning this

1 incident.

2 Q. Were these people armed?

3 A. Weapons. No, weapons were not found on the scene.

4 Q. Please, do you remember whether the Serb authorities or

5 representatives from Serb authorities tried to present this event in a

6 different light?

7 A. Yes. Through propaganda and by disseminating different

8 misinformation, they used any opportunity to show that the guys who were

9 killed were armed.

10 Q. Thank you.

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would now like to

12 play an audiotape, and this is Defence Exhibit 522. This is an intercept

13 of a conversation of the 4th of September, 1991, of Radovan Karadzic and

14 Zvonko Bajagic. This conversation has transcripts both in Bosnian and

15 English, and the transcripts are 03232858. Could we please play the part

16 starting from 0000 up to 0448.

17 [Audiotape played]

18 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Hello?

19 "Good afternoon, is it you, Zvonko?

20 "Yes, I am, Dr. Radovan.

21 "How are you?

22 "Well, I'm fine.

23 "What have you been doing?

24 "Should I start from the beginning?

25 "Okay, could you talk harder, please?

1 "To start from the beginning.

2 "Okay.

3 "I don't know if you have been on top of things since Friday?

4 "I know that they shot at the president of the Executive Council,

5 that fellow was arrested and then released.

6 "Yes.

7 "Then Muslims were headed to Kravica village. Was their

8 intention to attack or what?

9 "No.

10 "Well, well, down there after Friday ...

11 "Yes?

12 "Down there, related to these things, there were some fighting.

13 "Yes, yes.

14 "After Friday the SUP deployed the police force in these

15 villages. The hot spots. So only the Serbs were deployed in Kravica.

16 "Yes.

17 "Because that is what they demanded and the patrols, consisting

18 both of Serbs and Muslims were in Konjevic Polje and that other place over

19 there Loljici.

20 "Uh-huh, good.

21 "That has been an around-the-clock duty. There has been this

22 duty and the village guard ever since. After those two persons from

23 Han Pijesak were wounded at the barricade.

24 "After that?

25 "After that and before the shooting before the president of the

1 Executive Council.

2 "Okay.

3 "Two persons were wounded, and the motive for it was putting up

4 the barricade up there in Han Pijesak. They informed you about that.

5 "Yes. Two men were wounded, very well.

6 "And then after the wounding there was the attempt, the

7 assassination attempt at the president of the Executive Council down

8 there.

9 "Okay. Then again Serbs were wounded, so again they shot at a

10 Serb.

11 "No, listen, to keep you abreast of things, well, let's leave the

12 president of the Executive Council aside. Do you know there was an

13 attempt to kill him but they did not kill him?

14 "And did they injure him?

15 "No, they did not.

16 "But this president is a Serb, isn't he?

17 "Yes, the president of the Executive Council of the Bratunac

18 Municipal Assembly.

19 "Okay. But these two men in Han Pijesak were also Serbs?

20 "And these two who were wounded in Han Pijesak were Serbs.

21 "Okay.

22 "Listen, last night these four men in that car who road slowly

23 through Kravica, their main military strategic on behalf of the SVA and

24 the biggest stool-pigeon was in that car with three other men.

25 "Yes, yes.

1 "And they drove two times through Kravica.

2 "And Kravica is a Serbian village?

3 Kravica is a Serbian village like the Mokro region.

4 "Yes, yes, yes.

5 "It is part of the Glasinac area.

6 "Yes, yes.

7 "And they were riding through twice. They drove to Konjevic

8 Polje. Konjevic Polje is a Muslim village.

9 "Yes, yes. So it seems that they were provoking, weren't they?

10 "Yes, they were riding through with all four windows rolled down

11 and barrels of their machine-guns sticking out of the windows.

12 "Mm-hmm.

13 "And a police patrol gave them twice the sign to stop.

14 "Uh-huh.

15 "At two spots the police gave them the signs to stop but they

16 refused to do it.

17 "Uh-huh.

18 "That is the one patrolling through Kravica.

19 "Okay.

20 "And the local villagers walk along with these patrols.

21 "Okay.

22 "Up there by the exit from Kravica in the direction of Bratunac

23 there is a borderline between Serbs and Muslims there and Serbs keep watch

24 there. They have their sentries there.

25 "Yes, yes.

1 "And they received the message. Well, some of these were

2 provoking with machine-guns. The police tried to stop them at two

3 points. They did want to stop, so these men were tied -- up there tried

4 to stopped them. They refused. They opened fire. They killed two and

5 wounded one of them.

6 "Whom did they kill?

7 "They killed two Muslims. Not the main one.

8 "Uh-huh.

9 "Well, that one is lucky but they killed two of them.

10 "Okay.

11 "Furthermore, earlier today now the Muslim people went down to

12 Bratunac and they are rejoicing to go to attack Kravica.

13 "Uh-huh.

14 "Just let me see. A vehicle has arrived. Is he coming here?

15 Okay, okay, it is our man. But in the meantime, the MUP forces arrived in

16 Bratunac.

17 "Okay.

18 "And not long ago a helicopter with MUP personnel flew across the

19 way to Bratunac.

20 "Okay.

21 "We saw through the binoculars that there were more personnel.

22 "Okay.

23 "Furthermore, the Kravica men are still holding their positions.

24 They do not allow anyone to -- they shoot if a single man from MUP should

25 put their foot on their territory.

1 "Okay.

2 "It can easily happen that those from up there move in an

3 organised manner before the dark and that will cause then a frontal ...

4 "To move in an organised manner?

5 "Yes. If the MUP and one of them from down there moved towards

6 Kravica.

7 "Yes.

8 "They will come under fire, under machine-gun fire.

9 "Okay.

10 "That's it. The Kravica men, they decided that firmly and they

11 will not give it up.

12 "Are they armed?

13 "Yes, they are. Furthermore, their people, Serbs from the

14 villages having a common border with villages with Muslim population are

15 evacuated. They are moving across the Drina, and they go to the

16 centre of the village and into the woods.

17 "Okay.

18 "Everything is deserted. It is horrible to see that. They would

19 come to Milici to ask for help.

20 "Okay.

21 "Maybe some of these volunteers should go. They also asked me to

22 go to Han Pijesak. Thus, I have come home from Milici and I am reporting

23 to you. As far as I can see, nobody contacted you about these things.

24 "No, nobody contacted me about this.

25 "Well, in general, you should know that this is extremely

1 urgent. I think that someone should show up immediately, otherwise it

2 will be trouble.

3 "Who needs to show up?

4 "At the ones who can be the most influential ones. You and

5 someone on behalf of the SDA, someone who can ...

6 "And what should they do?"

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Mr. Ademovic, you heard that. Can you tell Their Honours who

9 Radovan Karadzic was at the time?

10 A. First of all, I recognised the voice of Mr. Radovan Karadzic.

11 Radovan Karadzic was the president of the SDS of Bosnia and Herzegovina, a

12 member of the Presidency, and a public figure in politics who at that time

13 spoke often and spoke a lot.

14 Q. Please, have you heard of Zvonko Bajagic?

15 A. Yes, Zvonko Bajagic was a local politician, a member of the SDS in

16 Vlasenica, in Vlasenica municipality.

17 Q. Mr. Ademovic, you heard this conversation. Is Karadzic discussing

18 with Bajagic the event in Kravica referred to by Mr. Veto Zepanic a little

19 while ago, those murders?

20 A. Yes, precisely so.

21 Q. Is Mr. Vito Zepanic a Serb?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Did you notice that Bajagic says that four Muslims were driving up

24 and down Kravica in a car with weapons? What actually happened?

25 A. Yes. He says that they drove up and down and that they had

1 weapons. On the contrary. They were not walking around -- driving up and

2 down. They were not armed. They were going from Konjevic Polje towards

3 Hranca where they originated from.

4 Q. Very well. Did you notice that Mr. Bajagic says the people of

5 Kravica are holding their position? They're not allowing anyone to enter.

6 Not a single member of the MUP can enter. If he crosses over to their

7 territory, they shoot.

8 At the time of these events did you have any specific knowledge of

9 this?

10 A. Yes. One of the leaders of the Bratunac police station, Senad

11 Hodzic, tried to enter with a police patrol into Kravica, and he did not

12 succeed. He ran into an ambush before entering Kravica. They were shot

13 at, and they withdrew. They never entered Kravica.

14 Q. Do you agree that the events referred to here took place in

15 September 1992 [as interpreted]?

16 A. Yes, September 1992.

17 Q. Did you notice that Karadzic asked --

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it says 1992 in the

19 record.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] September 1991.

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Thank you. Did you notice that Karadzic asks Bajagic whether the

23 people of Kravica are armed and that Bajagic replies, "Yes, they are"?

24 A. Yes, I noticed that well.

25 Q. Please, you said that you received various kinds of operative

1 information. Did you have any operative information connected with

2 Kravica and its hamlets with respect to the fact commented upon here, that

3 is, that the men of Kravica were armed in September 1991? What was your

4 operative information? Can you tell Their Honours?

5 A. Our operative information showed that the area of Kravica was

6 armed when certain -- a certain number of units withdrew from the war

7 theatre in Croatia where parts of the convoy late at night were stopped,

8 and they remained in the area of Kravica.

9 Q. Did you have any information as to where these weapons were

10 stored, if they were stored?

11 A. Yes. We also had such operative information. The weapons were

12 stored in certain areas in the general area of Kravica.

13 Q. Did you have any knowledge about the existence of depots and, if

14 so, where were they?

15 A. Yes. One of the depots was in Kajici, in the direction of

16 Jezestica. Another of the depots was in the area of Brezik. A third

17 depot was in the very centre of Kravica, the Zadruci Magazin [phoen], and

18 certain rooms in the primary school. The fourth of these depots was a

19 cave overlooking the church in Kravica in the direction of Popovici and

20 Mandici. It was to the north of Kravica, to the north of the church, and

21 this cave was a large one, a very roomy one.

22 Q. And where did you personally get this information, from whom?

23 A. We got this information both from Muslims, but its authenticity

24 was confirmed by Serbs who at that time were still of a communist or

25 socialist orientation, in favour of the former regime.

1 Q. While listening to this conversation, did you observe that Radovan

2 Karadzic says, "Get along wisely, as best you can. Don't allow anyone to

3 enter Serb villages but these volunteers who are coming." Do you remember

4 that?

5 A. Yes, yes, I noticed that.

6 Q. After this event in September 1991, did a single Muslim dare spend

7 time in a Serb village, Jezestica, Lipenovici, Rogac, Brezani where you

8 lived?

9 A. No. Quite the contrary. Bus stops in Kravica were no longer used

10 by Muslims. All the local approaches through Jezestica, Kajici, and the

11 general area of Kravica, the local roads were closed to the Muslims. They

12 could only use them for transit from Bratunac towards Konjevic Polje.

13 Q. The regular police forces of Bosnia and Herzegovina, could they,

14 after September 1991, do their job in Kravica, for example?

15 A. As of September 1991, the regular police force no longer had any

16 control or any information as to what was actually happening there.

17 Access was open only to Serb policemen and members of the narrow circle of

18 SDS leaders.

19 Q. In connection with these events in Kravica, concerning the

20 murders, did you discuss these with your Serb colleagues?

21 A. Yes.

22 (redacted)

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9 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. Let's go into private session for a

10 moment, please.

11 [Private session]

12 (redacted)

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12 (redacted)

13 [Open session]

14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Before the break, I have two more

15 questions.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Go ahead. Let's finish with these two

17 questions.

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Please, Witness, you told us that Kravica and its hamlets was

20 armed. While performing your duties, did you observe any other activities

21 by the Serb population in November and December 1991 after these murders?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. What did you see?

24 A. In the area of Jezestica and Djermani, which are part of Kravica,

25 there began to appear guards where people were armed, and they started

1 digging trenches and dugouts.

2 Q. And were these people Serbs?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Will you now tell us exactly where they were digging these dugouts

5 and trenches?

6 A. In front of Jezestica on the line running from Djermani,

7 Veresinje, Siljkovici, Hajducko Groblje, the Hajduk cemetery, to the west,

8 Lipenovici, Mratinci, Poljanci, Radukici, Kajici. That's the area.

9 Q. Thank you.

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, now is a convenient

11 time.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: So we'll have a 30-minute break starting from now.

13 Thank you.

14 --- Recess taken at 4.03 p.m.

15 --- On resuming at 4.35 p.m.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Madam Vidovic.

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Witness, I noticed that I was proceeding quite slowly so I would

19 like you to make your answers as brief as possible. Thank you.

20 A. Very well. Thank you.

21 Q. Could the usher now show the witness exhibit -- actually, it's a

22 copy of a hunting permit of the Javor Srebrenica Hunting Society. Is it

23 correct that you personally gave me this document, Witness?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. It's a paper which is actually a hunting permit?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Were you a hunter before the war?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Did you have hunting equipment?

5 A. Yes. A hunting rifle and binoculars as well as some other

6 equipment.

7 Q. As a hunter, did you move around in this area during the war?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Earlier you spoke about lines which you said were drug in

10 different locations in Jezestica. Did you personally have the opportunity

11 to see those lines with your own eyes?

12 A. Yes. Very often in that area, because that area is connected

13 physically to my village, I would frequently meet Mr. Dragan Ilic, and we

14 spent some time hunting in that area.

15 Q. Very well.

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could this exhibit or this document

17 be given an exhibit number, please.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. This document, Ms. Vidovic, will become

19 Defence Exhibit D843 and that consists of two pages, one being the

20 photocopy of the original document referred to by the witness and the

21 second page is the English translation thereof.

22 Yes. Go ahead.

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. While you were performing your duties and as you moved around in

25 that area, as a hunter did you have information about the arming of some

1 other areas in the Podrinje region if there were such areas?

2 A. Yes. As a hunter as well as a police station officer I was out in

3 the field a lot and we had operative information that Serbs were arming

4 themselves in Podravanje, Ratkovici, Fakovici, Brezani, Orahovica,

5 Osredak, Sijemovo, Studenac, and Sase, Bjelovac, wherever there were

6 Serbs.

7 Q. Do you remember any specific events from that time?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Could you tell us if you remember anything in relation to Dubova

10 which you indicated earlier on the map and said it was important?

11 A. Yes. In Dubova we confiscated three automatic rifles from the

12 Ilic family. Excuse me. Excuse me. Not Ilic but Lukic. The Lukic

13 family. I apologise.

14 Q. From March 1992 onwards, was it a rare occurrence to receive

15 informs about the arming in that area or did this happen frequently?

16 About the arming of the Serb population.

17 A. We at the police station received more and more information from

18 hour to hour indicating that Serbs were arming themselves in all parts of

19 the Srebrenica and Bratunac municipalities.

20 Q. Did you have information about who was arming the local Serbs?

21 A. Our operative information indicated that this was done by

22 representatives of the SDS and their associates in neighbouring villages.

23 Q. Did you have information about the role of the JNA in this arming,

24 if there was a role of the JNA?

25 A. Yes. The SDS used weapons confiscated from the Territorial

1 Defence, and as I said before, weapons that were also from the JNA.

2 Q. Did you have information about certain people who did that in

3 certain areas of the Srebrenica and Bratunac municipalities?

4 A. Yes. In early 1992, it was not a secret. We had operative

5 information, and we knew exactly who was doing this.

6 Q. Can you please tell us, according to your information, who was in

7 charge of arming Srebrenica?

8 A. Goran Zekic was mostly in charge of arming the town of Srebrenica,

9 and Miodrag Jokic, called Miro, for the area of Studenac. Yes. Allow me

10 to finish, please.

11 For the Studenac area Zoran Spajic and Rado Simic. For the area

12 or the village of Sijemovo, Milan Zekic, Maksim Zekic, called Makso. For

13 the area or the village of Dubova. The Ilic and Obranavic brothers. For

14 the area of Vijogor, which is part of Orahovica, Milos Milovanovic, Dusan

15 Vasic. For the area of Fakovici and Ratkovici, and here I would like to

16 note that the Fakovici and Ratkovici area a person, an employee of the

17 elementary school in Fakovici, Slavko Jovanovic. And Stanisa and Milenko

18 Stevanovic were also associates in the area of Ratkovici.

19 For the area of Sase with hamlets, it was Sreten Ilic, Momcilo

20 Cvetinovic, Bato Rankic. That was up to the Bjelovac part of the region.

21 For the Skelani local commune area Dusko Mandic, former police

22 employee who was fired because of some criminal activities earlier

23 relating to that. Dusko Neskovic.

24 Q. Do you remember the Sase area?

25 A. Yes. The Sase area was covered by Stjepan Novakovic, called Krke,

1 and I already mentioned Bato Rankic. I apologise. I said Bato Rankic.

2 Q. Thank you. Could the usher now show the witness document Bosnian

3 Muslim the commander of the battalion.

4 MR. DI FAZIO: Just in order to understand the evidence, the

5 witness described people being responsible for arming of Serbs in the

6 area, in these various areas, and two of them were Stanisa and Milenko

7 Stevanovic who were also associates in the area of Ratkovici. I don't

8 know if the witness means they were associates, friends, or whether they

9 were associate armers of the population. I'll just not sure what that

10 means. I wonder if that could be clarified.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Madam Vidovic, you were obviously listening or

12 hearing -- hearing what the witness himself said. Is this a question of

13 interpretation or perhaps you can address the witness directly.

14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Obviously unclear interpretation.

15 The witness said Slavko Jovanovic with his associates Stanisa and Milenko

16 Stevanovic.

17 A. Yes, precisely.

18 Q. But we will come back more specifically to this question.

19 Witness, could you please look at a document by the battalion

20 command from Fakovici dated 3rd of April, 1993, with the number 04360175.

21 And now I'm going to read this document. It's brief. "Certificate

22 confirming that Milosevic Vesko was assigned an Schmiesser last year in

23 the unit in Fakovici at the time. From that time period until today, the

24 above-named person assisted with all possible transport and work relating

25 to war activities.

1 "For his personal safety on water and in a boat, he was assigned

2 the above-mentioned weapon which was registered in the book of assigned

3 weapons. Field commander at the time, Slavko Jovanovic from Fakovici

4 distributed the weapons. We are not in possession of the book of assigned

5 weapons because it was with Slavko. Since he was killed, we do not know

6 where the book is."

7 I would now like you -- to ask you the following: Slavko

8 Jovanovic, who according to this document was the field commander at the

9 time in Fakovici, is that the person about whom you in the Srebrenica

10 police had information that he was arming Serbs in the Fakovici area even

11 before the war began?

12 A. Yes. Yes.

13 Q. Please, do you see in this document where it says: "From that

14 time period until today, the above-named person assisted with all possible

15 transport and work for the war activities, and for his personal safety on

16 water and in a boat he was assigned the above-mentioned weapon."

17 I would like to draw your attention to the date, the 3rd of April,

18 1993. Do you agree that this certificate talks about the year before,

19 1992?

20 A. Yes, yes. Precisely.

21 Q. Do you agree that the document states that Slavko Jovanovic died?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Did you know that he died? And if you did, when did you find out

24 about it?

25 A. In the course of 1992.

1 Q. In what period?

2 A. In the second half of 1992.

3 Q. Thank you very much. In the police before the war, did you have

4 information that weapons were being transported from Serbia to the

5 Fakovici area or not?

6 A. The Fakovici area was one of the key weapons distribution points

7 from Serbia in this area and broader than Ratkovici. I apologise.

8 Q. Thank you very much. That's enough.

9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could this document be given an

10 exhibit number, please.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: For this document which consists of two pages, one

12 in Serbo-Croat and the other one in English with ERN 04360175 is being

13 tendered and marked as Defence Exhibit D844.

14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. You mentioned Ratkovici in connection with arms distribution. Do

16 you remember any special points or incidents connected with this?

17 A. Yes. As a police officer, an official of the police station,

18 after the 20th of March, 1992, we received information that in the village

19 of Ducici, in the Ratkovici area, a military helicopter had landed and

20 that weapons had been brought in. Also, that General -- other, rather, a

21 major of the former JNA, Milenko Jovanovic had arrived by helicopter

22 personally and that he was distributing weapons there.

23 Q. Did you yourself go to the spot in Ratkovici?

24 A. Yes. I was on duty that day, and this was terrain that I

25 personally was responsible for along with Mr. Hasan Hajdarevic. I went

1 out onto the ground.

2 Q. And how far did you manage to get?

3 A. We got to a place between the village of Poznanovici and Ducici in

4 the direction of Ducici where the villages of the Ratkovici local commune

5 begin, and between Poznanovici and Ducici we were met by several Serbs who

6 prevented us from entering Ducici and Ratkovici.

7 Q. What did they say to you?

8 A. They told us that we had no right to enter Serb villages, that

9 this was Serbian business and that this was the job of the Serbian police,

10 which they already had.

11 Q. Do you remember whether you recognised anyone among the men who

12 stopped you?

13 A. Yes. I was surprised, and I recognised Mr. Jovanovic, who was

14 wearing a Serbian cap with a cockade. Also, Stanisa and his relative

15 Milenko.

16 Q. Are you referring to Stanisa Stevanovic?

17 A. Yes. Stanisa Stevanovic and his relative Milenko Stevanovic.

18 Q. How did they behave towards you two police officers? But before

19 that, let me ask you, did you know these people from before? For example,

20 Stanisa Stevanovic.

21 A. Yes. I knew them all personally, because this was the area I was

22 responsible for as a police officer, and I knew every man on the ground

23 relatively well. I knew Mr. Stanisa Stevanovic very well in the line of

24 duty, because he had a criminal record.

25 Q. Can you tell Their Honours what this was about?

1 A. He had committed --

2 MR. DI FAZIO: Your Honours, please. If Your Honours please, I'm

3 standing up --

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Let him finish. Let him finish first, please. Then

5 I think I anticipate what you're going to say.

6 Yes. Finish answering the question, please.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. This was a

8 person who was prone to disturbing public law and order, quarrels, fights,

9 and there was one crime of murder, illegal wood cutting and exploitation

10 of timber, frequent conflicts with his neighbours, and also with his

11 family in relation to property.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. Yes, Mr. Di Fazio.

13 MR. DI FAZIO: The evidence of the -- the murder, I think, was led

14 in private -- private session. I don't think the evidence of the other

15 offences was. From -- I'm talking from memory now, but I recall that he

16 did give his evidence in private session. I think Mr. Jones was

17 cross-examining him, and --

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I remember that, too, and I remember also the

19 information on disputes of land and on property and the rest of it.

20 MR. DI FAZIO: That was about one specific crime. So --

21 JUDGE AGIUS: But I frankly don't see any problem in moving ahead

22 and retaining the evidence as it is in public session for the time being,

23 unless there is agreement on the part of the Defence on this, but it

24 doesn't make a difference according to me if the other witness gave more

25 details on this particular incident in private session. Now, the witness

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1 now isn't going into details here. He is just --

2 MR. DI FAZIO: Very well, Your Honour. I just remind -- remind of

3 that.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: If there is any concern also on the part of the

5 Defence, then obviously we'll redact that part and deal with what comes

6 out in private session. I have no problems with that either.

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour, we are not

8 concerned about this. On the contrary. We feel that this testimony

9 should be public. It has to do with the witness's credibility.

10 Q. My question to you was: How did these people behave toward you

11 two policemen on that occasion? And I am now referring to the Stevanovic

12 cousins.

13 A. It was a very ugly situation. They practically chased us away in

14 spite of our attempts to clarify that we had come with good intentions.

15 They told us that they didn't need any Muslim police, that this was a

16 matter for the Serbian police. They were very aggressive towards us.

17 Q. Thank you. And did you learn exactly what happened there in spite

18 of this?

19 A. Yes. The information we had received previously was confirmed by

20 citizens who were Muslim inhabitants of Poznanovici and later on

21 honourable Serbs from the area.

22 Q. Do you recall any events having to do with the reserve police

23 force in Skelani?

24 A. Yes. Things were very complex as regards the Serb side.

25 Q. Do you recall any incidents in connection with the reserve police

1 from Skelani?

2 A. Yes. In Srebrenica, in late January or early February, our

3 operative information in the Srebrenica police station was that weapons

4 were being distributed in the town of Srebrenica opposite the Baratova

5 petrol pump. So I personally went there with my colleagues, and there we

6 confiscated two semi-automatic rifles from employees of the then company

7 called Faros from a Skoda car, which was white, and its licence plate was

8 11009 with the letters ZV in front of that.

9 Q. What happened with rifles after that?

10 A. We put the rifles in the police station in Srebrenica and soon

11 afterwards the Srebrenica police station was surrounded by a large number,

12 several hundred citizens of Serb ethnicity.

13 Q. Did someone enter the police station to intervene?

14 A. On behalf of the Serb citizens, their representative and leader,

15 the leader of the SDS, Goran Zekic, entered the police station. With him

16 was Miodrag Jokic, also known as Miro, in a passenger vehicle.

17 Q. What were they looking for in the police station? Why had they

18 come?

19 A. They wanted the confiscated weapons, those two semi-automatic

20 rifles, to be returned and issued to -- to Serbs from Skelani who were

21 reservists, and they insisted on two brothers, the Gligic brothers.

22 Q. Let me ask you before that. Were the Gligic brothers reserve

23 policemen?

24 A. No.

25 Q. And what happened then?

1 A. On that same day, they were quickly received into the reserve

2 police force and issued with those two weapons.

3 Q. Did you know any of them from before?

4 A. Yes. One of them used to play football in the Bubar football

5 team, in team number 1. His name was Branko. We used to call him Brano.

6 And they had a nickname, Pira [phoen].

7 Q. Do you recall some events in early April 1992 connected with the

8 immediate vicinity of Susnjari?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Do you remember something to do with the village of Poljanci?

11 A. Yes. On that day I set out from my own village, Susnjari, to go

12 to Slatina, and in the village of Poljanci, at the crossroads, I was

13 stopped by six armed Serbs from Lipenovici, Jezestica, and their leader,

14 as far as I could see was Ljuban Blagovcanin [phoen] who had with him a

15 German Schmeisser. Two of those present had two automatic rifles, two had

16 semi-automatic rifles, and the sixth man who was some 30 or 40 metres away

17 had a light machine-gun.

18 Q. Is Poljanci part of Jezestica?

19 A. Yes. That territory is physically connected to Jezestica through

20 Buljim and Lipenovici. It's physically connected.

21 Q. These men, were they wearing uniforms or not?

22 A. They were in olive-drab uniforms of the former Territorial Defence

23 or the Yugoslav army.

24 Q. Did you have any information about what was happening in the area

25 of Skelani in March and April 1992?

1 A. Yes. In Skelani we had a police department. It was part of the

2 Srebrenica police department, and at that time the Serb municipality of

3 Skelani was formed as was the Serb police station of Skelani.

4 Q. Would the usher now please show the witness Defence Exhibit D603.

5 This is a decision on the establishment of the Skelani Serb municipality,

6 and the date is the 22nd of March, 1992. I will quote to you.

7 A. Excuse me, please. I can't read very well even with glasses.

8 Q. I will quote this part. Take a look, please. Could you just

9 follow what I'm reading. It says: "A Skelani municipality Serbian

10 Assembly shall be set up with its seat in Skelani.

11 "The newly founded Serbian municipality of Skelani covers part of

12 the territory belonging to the former municipalities of Srebrenica and

13 Bratunac with a predominantly Serbian population. From Srebrenica

14 municipality, the following cadastral districts: Skelani, Kalimanici,

15 Zabokvica, Gaj, Pribidoli, Toplica, Medje, Radosevici, Brezani, Ratkovici,

16 Opravdici, Postolja, Krnici, Blazjevici, Godjevici, Bozici, Pribojevici,

17 Kostolomci, Bujakovici, Crvica, Petrica and Isakovici.

18 "From Bratunac municipality, the following cadastral districts:

19 Zlijebac, Jaketici, Vrankovi, Boljevici, Fakovici, Stanatovici, Mlecva,

20 Vranesevici, Loznica, Tegare, Sikirici, and Bjelovac."

21 In connection with this, I will ask you the following: In April

22 1992, did you have information to the effect that this newly established

23 Skelani Serbian municipality was taking parts of Srebrenica and Bratunac

24 municipalities, including Ratkovici, Fakovici, Bjelovac and Sikirici?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Now please try to remember what was happening at that time. You

2 can put that document back.

3 In early April 1992 in the police station or administration of

4 Srebrenica, what was happening there?

5 A. At Srebrenica police station at the time, certain Serb police

6 officers were leaving the Srebrenica police station. Some were going to

7 the Srebrenica police station.

8 Q. Just one moment. I apologise, but you said that Serb police

9 officers were separating. Some of them were leaving. Can you please tell

10 us where they were doing?

11 A. To the newly formed police station in Skelani and to Bratunac.

12 Q. Thank you. Do you remember a joint meeting with the Serbs

13 relating to the falling apart of the police station if this did occur?

14 A. Yes. I remember very well. I remember it very well. I will

15 never forget it. It was a very heavy kind of meeting. It took place

16 between the 12th and the 13th of April, 1992.

17 Q. Can I just ask you the following: Do you remember whether all of

18 the Serb police officers reacted in the same way to this falling apart of

19 police station?

20 A. No. There were those who were in favour of continuing work

21 together.

22 Q. Do you remember anything specific in relation to that?

23 A. Yes. At that meeting, Milun Perendic stood up, started to cry and

24 said, "You Muslims manage however you can. A great evil is awaiting you.

25 Don't think that I am telling you this as a Serb, but I am saying it as a

1 man, and what I am telling you will have major consequences for me, and

2 it's a question of how am I going to reach Bajina Basta." That's the

3 place where his family was and where he had his house.

4 Q. Do you remember if any of the local Serbs supported him in what he

5 said?

6 A. Yes, a few did, but what stuck in my mind specifically was when

7 Borivoje Marinkovic stood up and also started to cry and practically

8 repeated the same words. And then he said that for the last month, since

9 early March, something like that, his family was exposed to major

10 pressure. He was living above the police station in the same building.

11 He said that they were being exposed to pressure, that there was tapping,

12 wire-tapping. People were listening to what was happening at the police

13 station, and they were asking them for information, for data about what

14 was actually going on at the police station.

15 Q. Please, and what was the reaction of the other Serb police

16 officers other than those two?

17 A. Borivoje Marinkovic didn't even finish what he was saying. The

18 other police officers present, Serb police officers, led by Milisav

19 Gavric, Dusko Neskovic, and then inspector Milisav Ilic literally jumped

20 up from their places, attacked Mr. Perendic, and Mr. Marinkovic. They

21 said that they were traitors of the Serbian people and that they were

22 favouring the Muslims. And they also used the term "balija" for us in

23 later discussions.

24 Q. And how did this meeting end?

25 A. Not very well. When we came outside again there were several

1 hundred people in groups around the police station. These were Serb

2 citizens, and it seemed, at least to me, as if everything was organised

3 and planned. So it was -- we just barely made it out of that situation.

4 Q. And could you please tell us whether you continued to go to work

5 over the following few days?

6 A. Well, just let me finish. I apologise to the Trial Chamber.

7 We left the police station thanks to the fact that Gavric Milisav

8 said to the present Serb citizens, "It's all very well. You can all go

9 home now. Everything is going to be fine in the next few days," and then

10 we continued with our normal work at the police station.

11 Q. You, the Muslim police officers, did you understand that a war was

12 being prepared?

13 A. Yes, definitely. It was all clear to us.

14 Q. Did you try to organise yourselves in order to get weapons and

15 some other means?

16 A. Yes. We tried to organise ourselves to get some weapons and

17 materiel.

18 Q. And did you manage to get anything?

19 A. Yes. With a number of prominent Muslims, we managed to collect a

20 few automatic rifles, also radio communication devices, as many as we

21 could get.

22 Q. And where did you put the things that you managed to get?

23 A. Hamed Salihovic was the chief of the police station. We gave

24 these things to him and he took those things to his own apartment. It was

25 a studio apartment in Srebrenica and he also put that in his office.

1 Q. Did you find out what happened with the weapons and equipment and

2 the radio communication devices?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And what happened?

5 A. When one delegation, one political delegation from Srebrenica,

6 which also included Mr. Hamed Salihovic was there on the 17th of April in

7 1992 -- actually, they went to the Fontana restaurant in Bratunac for

8 negotiations, somebody, an unidentified person -- or a number of

9 unidentified persons broke into Mr. Hamed Salihovic's apartment and his

10 office, took all the things that were collected. They even took away his

11 personal documents.

12 Q. And what was happening at the same time with the civilian Serb

13 population, let's say from the Kravica area, including Jezestica and

14 broader in April 1992?

15 A. In April and even earlier in the Kravica area, and not only the

16 area of Kravica but the areas of other Serb villages, women and children

17 began to leave more and more often to Ljubovija and other areas. Let me

18 say here that only men who were fit for military service stayed behind, as

19 well as women who agreed to that.

20 Q. Did you have information about what was going on in mid-April in

21 Bratunac and its environs, just briefly?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. What was happening? Did somebody arrive there?

24 A. Yes. On the 17th of April, 1991 -- 1991, at about 1300 hours,

25 units came from the Vukovar front. These were Arkan's men, Seselj's men,

1 and always some members of the former JNA.

2 Q. Let me just ask you, are you talking about the 17th of April,

3 1991, or 1992 when you're talking about the arrival of these troops to --

4 these units to Bratunac?

5 A. I'm sorry, I didn't understand the question.

6 Q. Are you talking about the 17th of April, 1992 or the 17th of

7 April, 1991, when you're talking about the arrival of Arkan's and Seselj's

8 men to Bratunac?

9 A. The 17th of April, 1992.

10 Q. Thank you. Were you personally a participant in a political event

11 in that period around the 17th of April, 1992?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Could you briefly tell the Trial Chamber what happened?

14 A. On the 17th of April, 1992, on the 17th of April, a political

15 delegation from Srebrenica completed a meeting around 1500 hours which we

16 did not know about in Bratunac. These were negotiations which I said were

17 also attended by Mr. Hamed Salihovic. After that, at approximately 2200

18 hours in the evening on the 17th of April, 1992, we received an ultimatum

19 or a last call from the Bratunac police station that someone representing

20 the police should come for talks or negotiations to Bratunac, to the

21 Fontana because the representatives of the political authorities or the

22 civilian authorities did not turn up. We actually didn't know anything

23 about that meet going.

24 Q. And did you go to Bratunac? Who went to Bratunac?

25 A. I have to mention at that time and to this very day am friends

1 with many of those Serbs. It was decided that I should go and Mr. Alija

2 Hasic as well.

3 Q. Do you remember who you talked with over there?

4 A. On our way into the restaurant, the Fontana restaurant we were

5 greeted by Mirodrag Jokic, Miro, Sreten Radic, Bjelevoj Ostorak [phoen],

6 and the following persons did not talk to us. They just were issuing

7 orders about what we should do. Deronjic. A representative of the

8 military. His last name was Reljic. I don't know his first name. A

9 representative of Arkan's men was also there, of Seselj's men, too, and

10 they were wearing different camouflage uniforms which were quite new to

11 us.

12 Q. What were they asking you to do?

13 A. They were stating an ultimatum that all the Muslims had to hand in

14 their weapons by 8.00 a.m. in Dugo Polje at Zuti Most at the house of

15 Mevdo Avdagic [phoen].

16 Q. What was your reaction to that?

17 A. We tried to convince them that this was physically impossible and

18 that we should try to reach some kind of acceptance on their part to

19 extend this deadline a little bit, because some places in the Srebrenica

20 and Bratunac area were even 40 kilometres apart, 40 or 30 kilometres from

21 this location where we were supposed to hand in the weapons or where the

22 citizens were supposed to hand in the weapons. So it was practically

23 impossible to carry out.

24 Q. Thank you. Now I would like the usher to show the witness

25 Prosecution Exhibit P90, and it's page 41 in Bosnian, and it has the

1 number 02919258, and that is actually page 21 in English, and it has the

2 number 00186691.

3 I would like to quote just a small excerpt from the book which

4 describes this event. It's a book by Naser Oric called "Srebrenica." On

5 page 41, Witness, on the bottom I am going to quote: "During the day in

6 Bratunac there was a delegation from Srebrenica which came on its own

7 initiative represented by police officers, Sidik Ademovic and Jusuf Hasic,

8 who requested that the deadline be extended as much as possible in order

9 to gain time. The Serbs did extend the deadline but for two hours only:

10 Until 10 a.m. on 18 April 1992. They managed to extend the time for two

11 more days."

12 Please, who was it who went with you to Bratunac? Was it Jusuf

13 Hasic or Alija Hasic?

14 A. Your Honours, gentlemen, the information that is correct here is

15 only Sidik Ademovic. That is the only correct information, that I was

16 present. Jusuf Hasic was not, and we did not seek, but I repeat we

17 received instructions in the form of an ultimatum how and in which manner

18 to behave. It was an ultimatum issued by the Serb representatives, I

19 repeat.

20 Q. And was it described correctly here that you managed to extent the

21 deadline?

22 A. No.

23 Q. And just allow me to ask you. Besides Alija Hasic who you said

24 went with you, is there also a Jusuf Hasic in your area?

25 A. Jusuf Hasic is a person who was in his 60s at that time. He was

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1 an employee of Domavija [phoen]. It's a rehabilitation centre belonging

2 to the Gubur Spa in Srebrenica and he was the uncle of Alija Hasic.

3 Q. And Alija Hasic was with you at the meeting?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. So then is this part of the book correct? Does it reflect what

6 actually happened?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Thank you very much. After this, did you return to the Srebrenica

9 police station that day?

10 A. Yes, we returned. Actually, I returned to Srebrenica.

11 Q. And what happened to you?

12 A. When I came to Srebrenica it was the first time that I was

13 captured by the Serbs. I already saw Serbs who had captured the police

14 station. I saw Mr. Zlatko there. The post of chief was taken over by

15 Radisa, an employee of a zinc factory in Potocari and his neighbour

16 Bakrija.

17 Q. Do you remember Zlatan's last name?

18 A. No, I couldn't. I can't remember it now.

19 Q. Very well. And what happened from that time on?

20 A. From that time on, my trip --

21 Q. And did anyone intervene so that they would release you?

22 A. The only way out for me then was to contact the Bratunac police

23 station. I was in touch with Luka Bogdanovic, and he issued an order to

24 the gentlemen in question to release me so that I could go to him in

25 Bratunac.

1 Q. And did you go to Bratunac? What happened?

2 A. No. I saw and understood what was actually going on, and I went

3 through the woods and over the hills to my Susnjari.

4 Q. Please, what happened from late April to early May 1992? What was

5 going on in that area? You said that you went to Susnjari. Well, let's

6 make it a little shorter. Did refugees start arriving to the Susnjari

7 area?

8 A. Yes. In April and May and the period which followed after that,

9 countless refugees arrived from all directions.

10 Q. In Susnjari?

11 A. Yes, in Susnjari, my village.

12 Q. Tell Their Honours where these refugees came from.

13 A. From all directions, but mostly from Bratunac, Glogova, Koloma

14 [phoen], Zelena, along the Drina from Bratunac towards Zvornik.

15 Q. And did these people tell you what had happened to them and why

16 they were fleeing?

17 A. Yes. They recounted horrifying stories of what they had been

18 through and what they had seen.

19 Q. Do you recall, for example, an event recounted to you by people

20 from Lonjin? Can you first show Their Honours where Lonjin is?

21 A. [Indicates].

22 Q. Do you recall whether you spoke to someone from Lonjin and what

23 they told you?

24 A. Yes, with several refugees, but there was one lady in particular,

25 her name was Sabina, who told me something that touched me, something that

1 I will never forget. She said to me that in that area children and

2 elderly people had been slaughtered, between 30 and 40 of them, that there

3 had been arrests of women and children, that girls were raped and

4 slaughtered. And she told me about a neighbour of hers, Sadika. The

5 local Serbs caught her, raped her, impaled her and then threw her into the

6 Drina.

7 Q. Did she tell you what happened to this lady's children? Where

8 were they?

9 A. Sadika's children were among the group in which Madam Sabina was,

10 and they watched this from the woods nearby.

11 Q. Are these children alive today? Do you know?

12 A. Yes, the children survived, and they are in a European country.

13 Q. Thank you. These people you spoke to, did they tell you who the

14 organisers and executioners of these crimes were?

15 A. Yes. Not individually but collectively. Everybody said that it

16 was the local police, representatives of the Territorial Defence, SDS

17 members, and volunteers, that is, foreigners from the Republic of Serbia,

18 but most of all it was their neighbours.

19 Q. Thank you.

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, may the witness be

21 shown Defence Exhibit D430. This is a document issued by the Birac

22 Brigade. The 1st battalion command, Osmaci, of the 1st of February,

23 1993. The number is 01283527, and it is signed by Commander Bosko

24 Djuricic.

25 Q. Witness, I will quote the document to you. It says here: "In May

1 1992, we lent a TAM-150 motor vehicle owned by the Yugoslav army, a unit

2 that was stationed in Osmaci, and a Puch jeep motor vehicle owned by Petar

3 Jankovic from Kalesija to a volunteer unit under the command of the

4 so-called Simo Chetnik.

5 "After this unit was taken out of the Birac Brigade and

6 integrated in the Zvornik Brigade, these vehicles were not taken from it

7 because the unit because the unit fought in the area of the Birac and the

8 Drina Corps."

9 My question in connection with this is: Have you ever heard of

10 this volunteer unit of the so-called Simo Chetnik?

11 A. Yes. The refugees who arrived from the area of Zelena, Drinjaca,

12 Zvornik, Kamenica, and Kula, they very often mentioned this gentleman

13 called Simo Chetnik.

14 Q. Can you tell Their Honours exactly when the refugees came to

15 Susnjari from these areas?

16 A. They arrived in June, July, and right until the fall of Cerska and

17 Pobrdje, and they were all in Srebrenica municipality, what was left of

18 the free territory.

19 Q. And these refugees which you said arrived in the areas of Susnjari

20 and the Zvornik villages, did they speak about the relations between the

21 Serb volunteers and the local Serb units?

22 A. It was the same as that of the local population.

23 Q. But my question was: Did you know whether these units acted

24 together with the local Serbs or not?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. As regards the atrocities you described, did you receive similar

2 information from refugees arriving from other areas? You mentioned a

3 little while ago that refugees from Suha and Borkovac had came to your

4 village.

5 A. Yes. They spoke of horrifying situations, arrests, executions,

6 massacres in the area of the village of Suha and Borkovac, which is

7 contiguous to Hranca in the direction of Glogova. And later on this was

8 confirmed when mass graves were opened up and women and children were

9 found inside. I think Their Honours are aware of this.

10 Q. Do you recall what they said? For example, how many people were

11 killed in one spot in Borkovci?

12 A. About 35.

13 Q. And in Suha?

14 A. 40, 42 maybe more.

15 Q. At one point did refugees arrive from Vlasenica in your village?

16 A. Yes. In that period of time, there is no area in Bratunac and

17 Vlasenica from which refugees did not arrive.

18 Q. Do you remember some refugees from the village of Pomol?

19 A. Not only Pomol but also Djile, Pomol, parts of Vlasenica. And a

20 group which arrived from Pomol sticks in my memory because there was an

21 old woman who had arrived with her daughter, and she asked me to hear her

22 story and to help her if I could.

23 Q. And what had happened to her?

24 A. She told me that in her village, Pomol, the population had been

25 expelled, driven out into the woods, and one day she and her daughter

1 returned to their house in order to prepare some food and to bake some

2 bread. While she and her daughter were in the house, seven Serb men came

3 in. They were armed. They raped her daughter while she watched.

4 I will never forget that scene.

5 Q. Why?

6 A. Her daughter, who at that time was 17 or 18, was all cut up as if

7 she had been attacked by wolves.

8 Q. How many houses were there in Susnjari more or less, and where did

9 you put up all these refugees? How many refugees were there?

10 A. In my village of Susnjari there were about 40 houses, and as many

11 refugees as possible were accommodated in houses, but there were about one

12 and a half thousand refugees, and they lived in the tables, under trees,

13 in the woods.

14 Q. What effect did this have on the local population of Susnjari?

15 Did they know of all the stories that you knew about?

16 A. Yes. They heard all this, saw it, and experienced it. Their

17 blood froze. There was fear everywhere.

18 Q. Did you personally have weapons at that time?

19 A. Yes, I did.

20 Q. What weapons did you have?

21 A. I had my hunting rifle, my official pistol. I had my official

22 automatic rifle and a small Motorola which I took from the police station

23 when I left the police station on the 17th of April.

24 Q. Apart from you, how many other people in Susnjari had weapons?

25 A. We had about 20 pieces of weaponry including licensed weapons, my

1 own weapons, and this included pistols.

2 Q. Did you discuss the situation with the local population, and did

3 they consider the situation and reach some kind of decision? I'm

4 referring to the Muslims.

5 A. Yes. There was discussion about how we should either surrender or

6 fight, and the decision that was reached was to fight.

7 Q. Was a local group formed and was a leader elected?

8 A. Yes. After long discussions, they decided that I should be their

9 leader.

10 Q. During the summer of 1992 until the end of 1992, did people join

11 your group on a voluntary basis?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. When they entered the group, did they stay for a certain period of

14 time? Tell Their Honours.

15 A. No. It was all voluntary, and no one was able to tell anyone else

16 that they had to do something. The situation was disastrous as regards

17 food and hunger.

18 Q. Did people simply leave and go off to other areas, people from

19 your group?

20 A. Yes. From my group and also my neighbours and fellow villagers

21 because there was shelling, there was hunger, there was fear, there was

22 poverty, lack of accommodation. People were beginning to get sick and

23 die.

24 Q. Did people join your group who came from other areas?

25 A. Yes, for various reasons.

1 Q. Did you try to talk to the people who joined your group to

2 convince them to stay and not to leave the group?

3 A. Yes. I did everything to get them to stay, but there was nothing

4 I could do for several reasons. There was hunger. There was fear. There

5 was daily shelling. People were killed. There were attacks. The number

6 of refugees increased day by day. The situation was really disastrous.

7 Q. The area of Susnjari, was it in a particularly bad situation for

8 some reason? Can you explain that to Their Honours?

9 A. Yes. From the 2nd of May onwards, my village, Susnjari, was

10 definitely physically cut off from every other Muslim village, and another

11 peculiarity was that in terms of geographical elevation, it was the

12 highest place and a third factor was that on the west, to the west side,

13 it was physically connected to many Serb villages on the north.

14 Q. Can you show Their Honours this on the map? Please indicate the

15 situation of your village and its relation to the villages from Jezestica,

16 Kravica and Kajici and one side.

17 A. [Indicates].

18 Q. Could you please tell us exactly what you are indicating now.

19 What is this line?

20 A. This is the line of physical separation of Susnjari from the rest

21 of the Potocari local commune.

22 Q. Could you please tell us what the first village is from the top

23 that you listened up with the line. Go in order.

24 A. Bukova Glava, Dubova, then Brosevici was cleansed at the time,

25 linked up with Sijemovo, Orahovica, Vijogor and then the corridor

1 continues to the Drina.

2 Q. Okay. That's from that side. What about the Jezestica area and

3 from the other sides? Can you also draw the line? Could you indicate

4 that for the Trial Chamber, please?

5 A. [Indicates].

6 Q. What you have joined up are Serb villages; is that right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. You mentioned several times that Susnjari was shelled every day.

9 Could you please tell us where, from which places was the shelling coming

10 from.

11 A. From Jezestica, Kravica, Siljkovici, Veresinje, Lipenovici, Rogac

12 plateau, which was corps plateau. It was used by the Serb side. The

13 area, the broader area of Kravica, the location of Brezik, and then a

14 broader, larger plateau which was suitable for many military activities.

15 Q. Could you please show us where Brezik is?

16 A. It's the area between Agici and Opravdici. I already circled it,

17 but perhaps this area can be expanded. It's a larger plateau, a larger

18 area.

19 Q. You said that it could be used for different military purposes.

20 Was this related to the artillery or something else?

21 A. To the artillery.

22 Q. How do you know you were shelled from these locations that you

23 mentioned?

24 A. My village, Susnjari, and Jaglici are the most elevated points in

25 that area and I could see the entire area to the north towards Jezestica

1 and Kravica. What I wasn't sure about, what I couldn't see I used my

2 binoculars.

3 Q. Besides this group of yours which you said was armed and which you

4 led in the Susnjari area, were there any other armed groups within this

5 circle that you drew? Were there people in Jaglici, Brezova Njiva?

6 A. Yes, there were about 15 of them and ten in Brezova Njiva. In

7 Babuljice there were about 15.

8 Q. And these groups, did they act jointly with your group?

9 A. No. They were independent.

10 Q. Can you describe your relationship to these groups? How did that

11 work?

12 A. It was all independent. Nobody trusted anyone else. Everyone

13 guarded their own village, their own house. It was such a situation that

14 nobody knew whether they would see the night alive or see the morning

15 alive.

16 Q. Who headed these various groups?

17 A. Alispahic Mujo headed the group in Jaglici. Zukic Velaga was at

18 the head of the group in Brezova Njiva. Smailovic Meho was together with

19 Mujo in Jaglici.

20 Q. What about Babuljice?

21 A. Yes. In Babuljice, it was Mensur Mesanovic.

22 Q. Now I would like to ask you something else. In June --

23 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please. I'm sorry to interrupt.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: What's the problem?

25 MR. DI FAZIO: There is no substantial problem, Your Honours.

1 I just wonder if we could get the spelling of those last names in

2 the answer that came at lines 6, 7 and 8. It won't turn up in the

3 transcript tonight and you can't study and look at documents unless you

4 understand the correct spelling of the names. Madam Vidovic, I'm sure,

5 would have the spelling of the names. You see, when this is printed out,

6 there is just going to be squiggles tonight, and I can't understand and

7 read this evidence overnight and this is important.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I can quite understand and agree with you. The

9 first one was Alispahic.

10 MR. DI FAZIO: But it's the remainder really.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: The remainder we did go through them one by one. Do

12 you need the first one to be spelled out? I think you --

13 MR. DI FAZIO: Probably safest, yes.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So the first one, Mr. Ademovic, was Alispahic

15 Mujo, headed the group of --

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Where -- where did he head the group? Maglyci?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In Jaglici.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: And his name is Alija Spahic?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Alispahic. That's a last name.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Can someone spell it out for us? It's

22 A-l-i for sure, Ali, and S-p-a-h-i-c, is that correct?

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, it is, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: The next one, the next person you mentioned.

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, perhaps I can do that.

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1 It will be quicker.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: It will be definitely quicker, Madam Vidovic,

3 because --

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could you please follow what I'm

5 saying, Witness. Then you mentioned Velaga Zukic; is that correct?

6 A. Yes, yes, Brezova Njiva.

7 Q. V-e-l-a-g-a, Z-u-k-i-c. Then you mentioned Mensur Mesanovic, is

8 that correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. M-e-n-s-a-n-o-v-i-c, M-e-n-s-u-r. Mensur Mesanovic in Babuljice?

11 A. Yes, and in Jaglici. Besides Mujo Alispahic, there should also be

12 the name of Meho Smailovic.

13 Q. Very well, S-m-a-i-l-o-v-i-c, M-e-h-o in Jaglici?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Well, I hope it's all clear now.

16 THE PROSECUTOR: I'm very grateful to the Defence. Thank you.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Judge Eser was a question.

18 JUDGE ESER: Just before we continue now, the witness mentioned,

19 said it was all independent. Nobody trusted anyone else. What is meant

20 by not trusting anyone else? Was it distrust with regard to Serbs or

21 distrust also between Muslim villages or leaders of Muslim villages?

22 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm looking at the face of the witness, he's either

23 not understood your question or the cause may be some kind of

24 interpretation -- misinterpretation of what he may have said.

25 JUDGE ESER: Just to repeat. It's at line 73, 1. It was all

1 independent. Nobody trusted anyone else. Everyone guarded their own

2 village.

3 Now, you are speaking of -- that there was distrust between

4 certain groups, and my question was: Between which groups was there some

5 sort of distrust? Was it distrust from Muslims versus Serbian villages or

6 was there also some distrust between Muslim villages or leaders of Muslim

7 villages?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the trust between

9 Serbs and Muslims -- or distrust between Serbs and Muslims existed from

10 before, but there was also distrust between the group leaders, because

11 everyone believed that they would be the ones to best protect and preserve

12 their own village and their own citizens, the inhabitants of their own

13 village. That was the point.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Is that clear enough for you?

15 JUDGE ESER: It is clear.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Judge Eser.

17 Madam Vidovic.

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19 Q. In June and July 1992, how many civilians were there in Susnjari,

20 and -- and if you remember, how many refugees passed through Susnjari?

21 A. There were constantly about 1.500 in Susnjari. In June and July,

22 I know that over 4.000 refugees passed through my area in Susnjari.

23 Susnjari and Jaglici and Brezova Njiva, the ones that I saw.

24 Q. Witness, could you please tell the Trial Chamber where these

25 refugees were passing and where were they going to?

1 A. The majority of these refugees tried and did end up going through

2 Buljim, Djermani, Jezestica between Siljkovici and Mranice towards

3 Konjevic Polje.

4 Q. In other words, in order to reach Konjevic Polje, the refugees had

5 to pass very close to Serbian lines at Djermani and Jezestica. Did I

6 understand you correctly?

7 A. Yes, at Djermani and Jezestica. More precisely at

8 Hajducko Groblje. This distance it was only 200 metres. The passage was

9 just 200 metres broad between the two lines, and it was 1.5 kilometres

10 long.

11 Q. Could you please show the Trial Chamber the area where Ravna Gora

12 and Ravni Boljum are?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. So that is that area. Where did the refugees have to pass in

15 order to reach Konjevic Polje?

16 A. You see these two villages circled in red, Siljkovici on the right

17 and Brezanci. Jaglici, Lupoglav. I'm going to mark that in green. I'm

18 going to mark the direction they were going in green.

19 Q. Very well. And could the refugees go to the other side, towards

20 Potocari, or was your region of Susnjari, Jaglici and Brezova Njiva cut

21 off in June and July from Bljecova, Pale, Milatcovici?

22 A. No. Like I said, on the 2nd of May my area was physically

23 separate from everywhere else. The only open part was towards Slatina.

24 It was a wooded area towards Suceska and Milici.

25 Q. And was that the reason why the refugees used the road that you

1 indicated?

2 A. Yes. And that was the only way in and out. It was the only road

3 that you could take. There was no other way.

4 Q. Earlier you mentioned that at least 4.000 refugees passed through

5 Susnjari. They didn't stay long in Susnjari. Do you know anything about

6 the fate of those people? What happened to the people who passed through

7 this corridor?

8 A. The people who passed through the corridor either died or were

9 wounded or massacred.

10 Q. Why? What was happening? How did they get killed?

11 A. Because they encountered ambushes, everyday minefields. They were

12 exposed to shelling and all other kinds of means available to destroy a

13 human being.

14 Q. Did you try to tell the people not to go, that they were going to

15 their death?

16 A. Yes, in every possible way knowing what that area was like.

17 Q. Do you remember events or an event in late July 1992 that relates

18 to the refugees?

19 A. Yes. On the 29th of June.

20 Q. Will you please tell the Trial Chamber what happened on the

21 29th of June? Was that in 1992?

22 A. Yes. In -- on the 29th of June in 1992, it's a date that I

23 remember. A group consisting of over 800 people set out through the

24 wilderness, through the woods, to Konjevic Polje. When they arrived at

25 the Ravna Gora plateau, the Hajducko Groblje location, the Hajducko

1 cemetery, they ran into an ambush, and most of them were either killed or

2 seriously wounded.

3 Q. Did you try to come to their assistance?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Did you manage to help them or were all those people already dead?

6 I didn't understand you properly.

7 A. Well, those who had been killed had been killed, but 15 or 20 of

8 us managed to get there, and we had a shoot-out with the Serbs, the Serb

9 soldiers.

10 Q. Would the usher now show the witness document D32. This is a

11 record sheet for a dead combatant. Please look at this document which is

12 dated the 29th of September, 1993. However, look at the contents of the

13 document. It says first and last name, Mihajlo, son of Uros Uzelac,

14 volunteer. Date and place of birth, Zemun. Is that in Serbia? Is Zemun

15 in Serbia?

16 A. Yes, yes. Excuse me, yes, it is.

17 Q. Days and place of death, 29th of June, Jezestica. How death

18 occurred: In combat. Then look down here. Circumstances of death, it

19 says "The above-named died in combat." He was killed in combat.

20 You have now described the events of the 29th of June, 1992. Do

21 you -- well, you said that you fought with the Serbs in order to help

22 those civilians. First of all, you said a group of 800 civilians. How

23 many civilians, Muslims, were killed on that spot? Can you give us an

24 estimate?

25 A. I don't want to give estimates. I know of 35 who were killed, 45

1 who were wounded either seriously or slightly. This is not an estimate.

2 This is something I saw for myself.

3 Q. These were Muslim civilians?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. You said that you tried to come to their aid. Were there any

6 Serbs killed? Do you recall?

7 A. Yes. And some men from my group were also killed. We saw them

8 dragging along the corpses of dead Serbs, because when we had this

9 shoot-out with them --

10 Q. You said that civilians were passing close to the Serb lines. In

11 June and July 1992, did you know what the disposition of the Serb lines

12 was in your area?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Would the usher now show the witness D35. This is an excerpt from

15 a book entitled "The Bloody Christmas in the Village of Kravica." It's

16 Boro Miljanovic. And I will quote the last paragraph on page 42 where it

17 says: "In mid-April a Crisis Staff was formed, consisting of the

18 following appointed persons: Nedjo Nikolic - chairman, Krsto Cvjetinovic,

19 Radomir Raso Milosevic, Bogoljub Eric, Jovan Nikolic, known as Jole, Mile

20 Milanovic, Dragan Ilic, Luka Bogdanovic, Slavisa Eric, and Nedeljko

21 Nikolic. For safety reasons, the staff dismissed regular classes, and

22 turned the school building into a barracks. Territorial formations were

23 organised.

24 "The staff determined defence lines in all settlements from

25 Banjevici, Donja and Gornja Brana, Bacici, Jezero, Mratinjaci, Gornji and

1 Donji Dolovi, Brezanci, Jasikovaca,, Ravni Boljum, Jezestica, (Jalgic,

2 Djermani, Veresinje), via Avdanina Njiva and Mandici to Bandijera."

3 Witness, does this document reflect reliably the disposition of

4 the front lines in your area? Tell Their Honours which line you knew

5 about from among these mentioned here and indicate it on the map.

6 A. All these lines were known to me, but what I had a direct

7 connection with was Siljkovici.

8 Q. Can you draw a line where you know there was a line, which is

9 mentioned in this document? Only the ones you know about. Can you please

10 link up these places by a line?

11 A. I have already done that.

12 Q. Very well. So this is part of what you've already done. Can you

13 indicate this Jezestica area and the line towards Jaglici, Djermani,

14 Versenije? Have you done that?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And to be brief, does this document reliably describe the front

17 line on the ground?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. How did you learn of the existence of this line? I'm not speaking

20 of before the war but of June and July 1992.

21 A. Every day people went to observe certain areas. I'm referring now

22 to Djermani, Jezestica, Siljkovici, Lipanovic, Brezanci, and Poljanci.

23 Every day they went to observe and reconnoiter and, we received

24 information, and if something was not clear to me, as I knew the area

25 well, I had been born there, I was a hunter, and I had privately in my

1 personal life lived with these people, I went on my own.

2 Q. It says in the record we received information. Let's clarify

3 this. From whom did you personally receive information?

4 A. From my men in the group who went to observe.

5 Q. Thank you very much.

6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] And, Your Honours, to finish with

7 this document, I will quote another part of this document to you which

8 says, I quote: "The results of work of the Crisis Staff were evident as

9 soon as its first activities started. The people who originated from

10 Kravica were willing and ready to help their village including the sending

11 of volunteers to defend it. Soldiers who arrived, volunteers who left

12 their jobs in Belgrade and other places in order to take weapons and

13 defend Kravica confirmed there. Goran Nikolic was one the first

14 volunteers to arrive from Belgrade, then Milan Milosevic, also known as

15 Minja, came and organised a village defence of the following line,

16 Banjevici, Ocenovici and Begici. He brought about 20 men who were

17 originally from Ocenovici and Banjevici with him from Belgrade."

18 Did you know that in the area of Jezestica and Kravica it was not

19 only local Serbs who were fighting but also volunteers?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. How did you know this?

22 A. I mentioned at the beginning that I had my own Motorola which I

23 had brought with me as a police officer, and I listened in to their

24 conversations on the Motorola, and they would also often shout to each

25 other. The terrain was such that they would shout and they would often

1 yell threats.

2 Q. Could you clarify to Their Honours how you came by the power

3 needed to use the Motorola?

4 A. Maybe the gentlemen were not believe me, but I had an improvised

5 device. I used something called a Cekrk, using a mini motor from a cement

6 mixer, or I would use the motor from my windscreen wiper, and two or one

7 man would turn this by hand, and that was the power source.

8 THE INTERPRETER: Cekrk is a winch, the interpreters note.

9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] So this was a mechanical way of

10 producing energy.

11 Thank you, Your Honours. I understand that we were sitting until

12 a quarter past 6.00 today, so this is a convenient place to break now.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you very much for your cooperation,

14 Ms. Vidovic. We will adjourn for today. We will resume tomorrow at 2.15

15 in this same courtroom.

16 How could you doing time-wise? I would like to see this gentleman

17 go back home end of business on Friday, if possible. All right.

18 So good evening to everyone, and we'll meet again tomorrow.

19 And one moment before we leave. Mr. Ademovic, between today and

20 tomorrow and then subsequently between each day until you finish your

21 testimony, you're not to communicate with anyone and discuss with anyone

22 or mention or let anyone mention to you or discuss with you the substance

23 of the events that you are testifying upon. I'm sure that as an

24 ex-policeman you understand exactly what I mean. Thank you.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

1 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.21 p.m.,

2 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 26th day

3 of October, 2005, at 2.15 p.m.

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